Modern WisdomA Growth-Minded Guide To Raising Superhuman Kids | Sevan Matossian | Modern Wisdom Podcast 243
EVERY SPOKEN WORD
155 min read · 30,806 words- 0:00 – 15:00
Don't lie to your…
- SMSevan Matossian
Don't lie to your kid. Don't sugarcoat it. Don't fool around. In the long run, all of that stuff will just bite you in the ass. If you can't tell the truth, don't say anything. Let's say your kid's in the back seat and you're driving them home from class, and they say, "Mommy, can I stop at McDonald's?" And you know when you say no, they're gonna start screaming in the back and you don't want to hear it. Fine, take a few deep breaths and then say no and brace yourself. You'd be surprised how often they don't scream once they respect you, that your no means no.
- CWChris Williamson
(wind blowing) Sevan, how are you, my friend?
- SMSevan Matossian
I'm amazing. Living the dream and someone else's nightmare.
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs) I've had a couple of cracks at the intro desperately trying to get your name right. Uh, but here we are. What do you think we're gonna talk about today? We got a lot of different avenues that we can go down. What do you reckon we're gonna talk about?
- SMSevan Matossian
I am a very simple man with not a lot to talk about, so you better nail it right on the button, or else it's gonna be a real dull podcast. (laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
I disagree massively. So okay, first question is, how come you have made a name for yourself doing a thing that 90% of humans do, which is raising kids?
- SMSevan Matossian
Whew. Um, I love publishing. I love creating stuff. I use social media as a cheap publishing platform. It is not something that I use to really scroll around on, um, even though they're always tempting me in the Reels with those girls, like, doing all those fancy dances and barely clothed. Um, and I bought a computer to, uh, I got a computer and the editing software that Apple released the day it released it in 2000 whatever. I was living in my car. I plugged the computer into my cigarette lighter, and from that day forward I've used Final Cut Pro, Adobe Premier, some video, and I've been creating video for over 20 years, TV shows, movies, commercials, YouTube, Instagram. And so basically what happened is, I have my three... I've, I've been... and now I know what happened. I've been preparing all these years because now I have my three favorite subjects of all time, my three sons. Um, Avi who's six, um, Ari and Joseph who are twins who are three. And they are, um, not only my Sistine Chapel, they're gonna be my greatest work ever, but I'm gonna record it because that's what I enjoy to do. And so, (laughs) they do some stuff on Instagram that's got them, uh, some attention, and, um, and so that's how our, I think our, our paths have crossed. And we both CrossFit, and I think we're both sort of in that ecosystem.
- CWChris Williamson
Lots of people take videos of their kids though. You know? Like th- it's every, every mom that I know is so trigger happy with the camera. So how come... What, what makes you worthy of people caring what you do with them?
- SMSevan Matossian
So the... and, um, so, so one, I have 20 years of experience of creating videos, so maybe I... and, and, in my, in my previous life I created more than probably... in 2007, '8, '9, I created, I don't know, I want to say a piece of content every single day for CrossFit Inc. And, um, there was even a joke at CrossFit Inc. that it should be called Sevan.com and not CrossFit.com. I think there was a day where they published my stuff 42 days in a row in 2010. And so I've had a ton of practice, right? So I know on some level how to, um, intuitively I guess, um, to present my kids in a manner that would be intriguing, but not only intriguing, educational. My point, my, my, my main goal of publishing is I just want to add value to people's lives, right? So I want people to see... Fir- 50% of it is I just like to create stuff, and on the other side- or the other 50% is I want it to add value to their lives. And because I'm a CrossFitter, and because I have this, um, unwavering belief in the CrossFit methodology, which the foundation is diet and then up from there it's movement, um, and, and that struggle causes adaptation, that's how I'm raising my kids. I basically... there's two, two basic premises for how I'm raising my kids. I'm using the CrossFit methodology, and then I'm sort of ewing- using Taoist principles or principles of the journey to enlightenment through, like, maybe, like, uh, Vipassana or creating space or, um, not stilling the mind but, um, watching myself and making sure that I'm making the best decisions for my kids as a human being. I know that was a lot. I was really trying to condense it in there. But those are sort of the two outside things. You're seeing physically how I'm training them and the things that I'm asking them to do and show them to do and the diet that they're consuming on my platform, but then you're also... and I've only recently started sharing this. I'm sharing with people how I work through the hard times, you know, whether it be their temper tantrums, their pressing back. And I do that through, um, really in the simplest way, Taoist principles, or just really, really staying still and sort of becoming nothing. And by nothing, I mean no thing. Not, you know, no thing. And so that they can, um, resolve their own, their own problems. Doesn't always work out. (laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs) Did you always know-
- SMSevan Matossian
But that... And, and-
- CWChris Williamson
Did, did you always know-
- SMSevan Matossian
Go ahead.
- CWChris Williamson
... that you were going to be some savant sage of experimental child-rearing?
- SMSevan Matossian
No. No, and I don't, I don't... um, I don't know. And I don't, I don't accept that. Like, I don't think that about myself, and I didn't know that. So, uh, my, my wife and I were... we were married... we're, we been together 20 years. And the entire time the plan was not to get married and not to have kids. I had no interest in it. I thought people who got married were just tools of the man, just followers, and I thought that there were enough kids on the planet. Who am I to contribute? What can I contribute? And then some... and then we were living with some friends, and they had a baby. So we were in a house, and now there's a baby. And then my...... closest friend in life, he had a baby. And somehow, that triggered my wife at 39 years old to be like, "Hey, I want a baby." So we had a baby. And it was just like, uh, I mean, it was so just casual. Um, and something happened. I'd, I, I can't, like, uh, biologically, emotionally, mentally, um, there's this Daoist saying, "Stop thinking and all your problems will go away." And that's basically at, I'm 48 years old, um, and s- uh, I, I point my age out because my 30s were my grinding years, so I don't know how this would've turned out if I would've had a kid at 34 'cause I was so, you know, I, I, I shot movies in 100 different countries. I mean, I was on the ball. And so now, I don't wanna do anything. Something just happened. I don't wanna do anything but be with my kids. That's it. Like, I have no, like, that's it. I don't, I don't, I, I, to this day- (laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
That's terrifying to hear, man. Like, uh, uh, that absolutely terrifies me. And I've been talking about this a lot, especially this year, that there is an archetype for women who hit sort of 30 and then perhaps start to get a little bit more serious about settling down. But for men, I don't think that we quite have that, and we live through archetypes, right? We live through these sort of cliché grand narratives where we look up to the classic, uh, uh, um, roles that people play in movies or in books or whatever it might be, and there isn't an equivalent for the young guy who has served his time burning the candle at both ends and now really wants a family, likes the idea of a family. And to hear that, that there is a switch somewhere inside of us that none of us knew even existed, and at some point, all of the other guys who are listening who have been loving being independent, sovereign agents with upward mobility and freedom to do whatever they wanted, "I'm going to Dubai tomorrow because I can. What's the point in having fuck you freedom if you never say fuck you?" And at some point, I can potentially have this switch turned on which completely flattens my entire world view and makes me become at the mercy of these little m- miracle creatures that I've just brought into the world, and the rest of my life's going to stop. That's like b- beautiful and terrifying at the same time.
- SMSevan Matossian
L- let me, let me, uh, maybe I'll shed some light on it, and what, I don't know if what I'm saying is true. But let's say that we go out in search of life, and when we go out, we're just mirrors and we're just looking for perfect reflections of ourselves, right? And so, that's the struggle of life, that we can't find that perfect reflection, so we move from relationship to relationship and coffee shop to coffee shop and job to job and buying car to car, and we're, uh, either trying to scratch something inside or outside, but we're looking for that perfect reflection. Maybe, I've never explored this except for just now, maybe what happens is these guys came out, and they just start reflecting me perfectly. And bam, they got me, right?
- CWChris Williamson
Why do you think the reflection is what we're looking for?
- SMSevan Matossian
Through my personal experience of what I call watching my mind, but some people call meditating, watching, it's not just my mind, it's watching my body, all sensations. I see things arise, whether it be a scratch on my arm, or a thought that I'm hungry, or, "Oh, my toe hurts," or, "Oh, my back hurts," uh, and they come in sensations and words and emotions. There is then a desire to move or act to alleviate or respond to that sensation, thought, whatever came out of you. So, you look for an external fulfillment. You look for something externally instead of letting it pass. So, you're hungry, I'm working on my computer editing a podcast, it's ten o'clock at night, I'm hungry. I turn the volume up on the podcast so I can hear it as I go to the kitchen and stuff myself with two handfuls of macadamia nuts, right? Or I could just let that pass, it i- and it is gonna pass, but most people, I, I, I shouldn't say this. In the past, in my life, as I grew up, I wouldn't let that pass. I would itch every single, and so that's where I come up with the mirror, the mirror thing. We're looking for something outside of us to alleviate the discomforts that come inside. That's why people lie and just all sorts of stuff. You're looking to alleviate discomfort. It's sort of, and that's what makes us kind of like flies. We twitch from one pile of shit to the next because we're looking to alleviate discomfort. Any- and, and I use the word discomfort super broad, like, you know. And so, the goal would be to just, um, let those things, well, different subject, but when I'm around my kids, I'm especially focused on letting those things pass, and it's pretty easy to let those things pass because they're giving me everything I need.
- CWChris Williamson
Did you own a dog b-
- SMSevan Matossian
They're reflecting me perfectly.
- CWChris Williamson
Did you own a dog before you had kids?
- SMSevan Matossian
Great question. Yes. (laughs) I did own a dog. I had three Great Danes in my motor home, and then I had this little, after that I had this little tiny Chihuahua.
- CWChris Williamson
Okay, which was harder to raise?
- SMSevan Matossian
The Danes. It's a lot of shit.
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- SMSevan Matossian
It's a lot of shit and a lot of piss.
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs) Just sheer volume.
- SMSevan Matossian
They, oh, man, I, you, I saw like morning pees that would be like two minutes long from my dog.
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- 15:00 – 30:00
So, w- e- we…
- CWChris Williamson
You don't know that you need to build... I'm jumping ahead, but you don't know that you need to build, like, the biggest playground made out of soft area things, and learn about m- mindfulness for your kids and stuff like that. You just have a life of lived experiences, which is quite vast, and, and you're a mindful guy that's self-reflective and quite truthful, so I think you have a strong foundation for it. But obviously, like, you have none of the skills. So, do you just start reading books when you find out that your wife's pregnant? What, what happens?
- SMSevan Matossian
So, w- e- we had... She has o-... So, basically, we, we start going to, um, birthing classes. And it's, it's a three-hour... I wanna say it's a three-hour class once a week for eight weeks. And we're in that class, and that was pretty incredible because it would be three... I couldn't remember the last time I spent three hours of uninterrupted time with my wife, right? We're just in the class, sitting in a chair (laughs) with our arms around each other, and they have you practice doing all sorts of stuff that I wasn't comfortable doing, like whispering affirmations into her ear, and just all, all this stuff, right? And, and that... But at the end of every three hours, I was, like, stoked. It was... It felt like a, like... I felt closer to my wife from that. And even though it, it... And so when we went... Let me go back a little bit. So, when we went into that class, our plan was to go to the hospital and have the baby, right? I wanted the safest, best medical treatment possible. And then, about halfway through the class, the instructor said, "Hey, you don't wanna do a, a medical birth. You don't wanna do a birth in a hospital." I'm like, "Yeah, I do." And she goes, "No, you don't." And I go, "How do you know?" She goes, "'Cause I listen to the way you talk, and I can tell you do not want a hospital birth." So, I disregarded what the teacher said. But then finally, one day, when we were visiting, um, what is it called? An OBGYN, my wife's OBGYN, I said a couple things to her. I said, "Hey, are you gonna be at the birth?" And she snapped back at me, "What? Do you think I work 24 hours a day, seven days a week?" And I was like, "Whoa, whoa, easy." And then I asked her something else, I can't remember, and she pushed back and got really angry. And then also told me that, though, that this birth is gonna be a partnership. And I'm like, "She's lying to me, or she has a total different view of what a partnership is." So, we started looking at, um, the home birth route, and we had Avi at home, a home birth, just in the living room of our house. This is to answer your question. So, the midwives leave, and then there's this dude.
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- SMSevan Matossian
It's just me and my wife and this new dude in the house, you know? (laughs) And you're pretty high. You don't sleep for, like, a couple of days. You're like on... You're sky-high, like someone put cocaine in your coffee every morning. I mean, you are just out of your mind high. And fortunately, she just started breastfeeding him, and I just kinda just hung out and made sure I took care of my wife. I just faked it, I guess. I, I, I don't know how I knew what to do, but I just faked it. Just made sure there was plenty of food for her, and she just basically sat around and breastfed him on demand for the first two or three months. Then she started getting out of the house. I know a lot of women get out of the house sooner than that, but she's, she hung tight in the nest. And then she basically bre-
- CWChris Williamson
Do you think that's important?
- SMSevan Matossian
Uh, yes. For the woman to hang tight, yes. I think when I hear... I mean, and who the hell am I? I'm just some dude. But when I hear women already going out for walks and stuff after a week, I do not think that's smart.
- CWChris Williamson
Why?
- SMSevan Matossian
I think that there's very few times that human beings should stay still, and that is one of the times. The woman's body has just been through a tremendous amount, and it's a time to, for the woman to reflect and really, really focus on herself, and focus on her baby. And the fact that they... The, the term I hear a lot is they go stir-crazy, that they need to get up and move, or they need to get out, or they need a little cup of coffee, or they need a little bit of wine, or like...
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- SMSevan Matossian
You know, I'm not judging those people, don't get me wrong, but I do have really strong opinions on it. I'm really glad my wife didn't drink coffee leading up to the pregnancy. I'm really glad she didn't drink wine. I'm glad she really stayed still and took care of her body. If a woman does get up too early and start moving around and be active, she'll start bleeding again. Um, it's a tremendous, it's a tremendous toll on the body, I think, to produce all of that milk. Um, you want the body to heal. Um, literally when she... So, she breastfed Avi for 18 months while the twins were in her growing. Then a month before the twins came out, she stopped breastfeeding. And then the twins came out, and then she stayed in the house for another three months. Imagine that. Like, I bought a... My very first car I ever bought was a van. My wife and I bought a brand new van, and when I pulled it up to the house, that was the first time. It was like, the kids were like two and a half, three months old, the twins. That was the first time she came from the back room and, and looked outside. "Oh, I got a new car." And this is my wife, who's very active, who did CrossFit throughout her entire pregnancy. You know, the woman has abs, she has, she's, she's a beast. And, um, yeah, the healing... And, and maybe she's also... uh, the twins came when she was 42, right? And we had those at home also, which is illegal in the state of California. And, um-
- CWChris Williamson
Why is that?
- SMSevan Matossian
Isn't that amazing? Because women, I guess, aren't allowed to do what they want in the United S- United States of America.
- CWChris Williamson
Is it the fact it was twins?
- SMSevan Matossian
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
So you can't, you can have one, but you can't have two?
- SMSevan Matossian
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Can you have three?
- SMSevan Matossian
I, I don't know. I won't be able to tell you, no-
- CWChris Williamson
Oh, so it's two... It's anything over one. So, one, one and a half they're, they're also...
- SMSevan Matossian
Very fair question. I'm go- I can only make the assumption that three is also illegal.
- CWChris Williamson
Wow. So you've got illicit... Your, your children were brought into this world, smuggled into this world under the cover of, of darkness.
- SMSevan Matossian
And, and, and when you... (laughs) And when you have kids at home, they don't get... Like, when you have them in the hospital, I can't... I don't know exactly how it happens, but I think like they get a Social Security number and they get their name stamped in stone in the heavens, and they become official Americans, right? When you have them at home, that doesn't happen. So you have to take them to some office. And it, it's a, uh, it's a... At least in the city of Berkeley, California, it was a pretty low-rent, vile endeavor. Um, just the lines you had to stand in and the places you had to go, and-
- CWChris Williamson
With one or two newborn children?
- SMSevan Matossian
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah. Well, I know, um-
- SMSevan Matossian
It's definitely, um...
- CWChris Williamson
I'm on Mike Cosio's podcast next week, and obviously him and Ade just had their little one earlier this year. And, um, I know that Mike has... H- him and Ade, classic, like, growth mindset people who are used to consuming a lot of content in any case. They'd just read everything under the sun about birth and babies and, and raising babies. And they were... I was talking to him earlier this year, and he was adamant about a home birth, absolutely adamant about it. Uh, and he had this big laundry list of reasons as to why he had. So that's two for two on people that I respect with regards to child-rearing, saying that-
- SMSevan Matossian
(sighs)
- CWChris Williamson
... that is a, a route that they took.
- SMSevan Matossian
The second the baby came out, I knew exactly why we did a home birth because I could not imagine moving my wife and that baby at all. I couldn't imagine there being tubes in them, I couldn't imagine someone pricking their feet, I couldn't imagine putting that precious baby in a baby seat and then putting it into a car. I couldn't ima- Like, we were in our nest. It's literally like that. You have the baby and you're in your nest. Now, I don't want to upset anyone. If you had the baby in the hospital and you had a great experience, kudos to you. I'm not suggesting this is... I'm telling you my experience. I could not imagine leaving. I couldn't imagine, well, letting anyone want to touch my baby. I mean, I was just, um... It was perfect. I knew right away, "Wow, we're in the nest." It would be crazy to take the baby out of the nest. It's just like you're not supposed to take a baby bird out of the nest, right? Yeah. So-
- 30:00 – 45:00
Do you find it,…
- SMSevan Matossian
want to be safe. Kids want to please their parents, and they want to be safe. And so you have to figure out how you're gonna do that. What are you gonna have them do, you know, to get your attention? And how are you gonna make it safe? And, um, I'd, uh, I- I don't know, uh, to go back to your previous question, I don't know how... I don't remember how I know that, but I just, maybe, maybe I observed it or maybe someone told me. I wish I could give someone credit for it, but I know that. I know he really, really, really wants to please me, and I know that he really, really wants to... He flourishes when he's safe. How do you make it safe? You have to have crazy boundaries for your kid. And the boundaries you set, they don't even need to be, they don't even need to be legitimate boundaries. By legitimate, I mean you don't even have to justify them. So, let me tell you one of the boundaries I have. My kid is never to touch my cellphone.... ever, ever, ever, ever, ever. It's easy. You just don't touch my cell phone. I don't let you watch movies on my cell phone, you don't watch cartoons on my cell phone. You don't hold my cell phone. That's my cell phone. It's a boundary, and I follow through by never, ever, ever breaking it. Now, what's my kid know about me? You, you would think from the outside that they're learning, hey, they're not getting your cell phone. Right? That, they're learning so much more than that. They're seeing that I'm in control. When they see that I'm in control, guess what they get? Freedom. So much freedom. I'm in control. I'm sitting at the top of the hill as the big lion, looking out over the savanna, and they can play freely, 'cause I'm in control. And how do they know I have control? Because I have boundaries. There's no toys allowed in this room behind me. There's no exceptions. There's no, "I'm sick." There's no, "Oh, this is a stuffed animal." This room doesn't have toys. Kids can only come in here with the clothes on their back. (laughs) So another boundary. Do they try to bake the, break the boundaries? Yes. You have to enforce them. You have to follow through. And all of those, within each of those, so there's boundaries, I have to follow through. I can't be three kombuchas deep and be like, "Yeah, go ahead, go ahead, you can come in. I'm drunk tonight." No, they're, you ca- uh, that's, you're not doing your job. Hey, that's not how I'm painting my Sistine Chapel, Chris. Right? I'm doing my Sistine Chapel, uh, when I'm mixing my paints, I don't get lazy. I'm not painting when I'm drunk. Um, you, you know, the days of popping an OxyContin and drinking two beers and watching a movie with my wife, those, I don't do that. You know? That, that's 33. That's not 48 with three kids. So go ahead.
- CWChris Williamson
Do you find it, do you find it easier to be disciplined with your children than with yourself?
- SMSevan Matossian
You're asking me at a really, really weird time, because I'm so hyper-disciplined with myself right now. I am so disciplined with myself right now. And by that, I mean, I, uh, I, I'm not drinking, I haven't had any refined... Because of COVID, I, I believe that you're completely inoculated from COVID if you don't eat any refined carbohydrates or sugars. And so like, I've made myself bomb-proof, you know what I mean? I, I have not... The, the only carbohydrates I have are leafy greens, um, and, and meat. That's all I eat. And, um, so, you know what I mean? I'm on, I'm in ketosis. (laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
So it seems to me-
- SMSevan Matossian
Lockdown. (laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
... it seems to me that what, what you're talking about here doesn't just require discipline, it's discipline being taught to your children, but the starting point, the inertia that you need to get over in the first place is yourself as a parent. That if you are undisciplined as-
- SMSevan Matossian
Uh, explain that to me.
- CWChris Williamson
... if you are undisciplined as a parent, there is no hard boundary for the child's discipline to come up against. You mentioned there-
- SMSevan Matossian
Uh-
- CWChris Williamson
... you, you, you can create boundaries, but inevitably, those boundaries are going to be subject to your own desire to be disciplined. So for instance, one night, parent X is feeling a little bit down and really wants the comfort of cuddles off her, his or her child, so lets them come into the living room with their toys and their blanket because of this thing. That requires discipline first. The foundation of the discipline is, is built upon the parent, and then broadcast to the child.
- SMSevan Matossian
Yeah. You, you know why I'm having trouble? I think what you're saying is true and why I'm having trouble understanding it, and to give another ex- explanation is, I don't have to worry about giving my kid Oreos, 'cause I would never allow Oreos in my house in the first place. And that, that's actually not true. I've had guests who bring their kids over to my house, and their guests don't like the shitty desserts my wife makes without sugar in them, so they bring their own desserts (laughs) and they, their kids eat Oreos in front of my kids. (laughs) Now listen, that doesn't mean you're not flexible. I have an absolutely no TV time or screen time when the sun is out. And TV is only for Friday nights and Saturday nights. And yet-
- CWChris Williamson
For the kids or for yourself?
- SMSevan Matossian
For the kids. But, and, it... Yeah, for the kids. And I don't watch T- I only watch UFC, um, on Saturday nights. But, um, but, but I, but I have, but, but you do have to be flexible. And what do I mean by that? There, there, there's, um, a handful of times I've had a kid who's really, really sick, you know, just like a fever and just shitty, and I've let him watch TV. Um, when I take my kids to jujitsu, and it's a two, it's a two-hour window, the kids' class goes first and then the older kids' class goes. In that two-hour window, I'll let the kids who are waiting watch a little bit of iPad. Not the whole hour. I'll tell them, "Hey, watch your brother, um, compete for a little while, or wrestle, or practice for a while, and then halfway through, you can watch the iPad." So I'm, I don't wanna sound like there's not a place for it. There are things that there aren't a place for. Chewing gum. You should never give your kid chewing gum.
- CWChris Williamson
Why?
- SMSevan Matossian
You're being a bad, you're being a bad parent. There's no point to it. You're only hurting your kid. Why are you giving a six-year-old chewing gum? What?
- CWChris Williamson
Is that very common?
- SMSevan Matossian
Oh. Buddy. Oh, buddy. Buddy, buddy, buddy. So common. I see kids chewing gum all the time. I see kids at jujitsu and the instructor has to tell them, "Spit the gum out." Now here, I'm gonna tell you why parents give their kids chewing gum. This is not pro- uh, this would have never resonated with me before I had kids, but there's something called the hostage situation. Parents are always, 100% of their waking hours, and even in their sleeping hours probably, preparing for the hostage situation and waiting for impact. And what that means is you ask me, "Chris, can I have some gum, Haydig?" Haydig means Dad in Armenian. And I say, "Huh?" And I wanna say no, I know it's the right answer...... but I'm in line at Starbucks and I'm next, and if I say no, you might have a temper tantrum and I might not get my coffee because I have to carry you outside. And then I say, "Yes, you can have a piece of gum." It's where all the bad decisions are made, in the hostage situation. And it's crazy. There's hostage situations everywhere. Every time your kid opens his mouth, you're in a hostage situation. And they- they're constantly asking for stuff. But you have to follow through and you have to have these boundaries. If you don't, every time you give in, you will be doing two things. You'll be shitting on your Sistine Chapel, meaning hurting your kid, and you'll be weakening your position for the next time, but you'll also be making your kid feel unsafe. It- there's no win. There's no win.
- CWChris Williamson
That was the sixth, uh, principle, right? You had your five and then kind of was the- the hostage... D- Don't let yourself be held hostage was number six. Is that correct?
- SMSevan Matossian
Yeah, I guess I am flopping around. What did you say?
- CWChris Williamson
No, that's-
- SMSevan Matossian
You're not gonna come on my podcast and flop around? (laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs) That's what I'm here for. I'm here to flip-flop around. Um, number one, what was number one?
- SMSevan Matossian
Um, their struc- y- kids need structure.
- CWChris Williamson
Yup. Daily routine.
- SMSevan Matossian
Yes. And e- even I app- I do structure even through their clothing. So, I just, I make life so easy for my kids. My kids wear the same thing every single day, basically. They have a s- they have these p- these pants that they wear, and they have a, a, what we call a wife beater in the United States, it's like a, a, just a white tank top. And... I know, could use a better name, right? And then, and then sweaters. They have a long-sleeve sweater and a short-sleeve sweater. And they can, depending on how cold or hot it is, they can layer up or layer down. And then the shoes are always in their car, because there's no need for shoes at home. Why would you have shoes at home?
- CWChris Williamson
You gotta walk to the car.
- SMSevan Matossian
At home, you're barefoot. Yeah, you just go barefoot. (laughs) And, uh-
- CWChris Williamson
That's the advantage. That is coming from a man who lives in very temperate climate.
- SMSevan Matossian
True, true. Um, then the second thing after structure is discipline. And not discipline in the fact that they need discipline, like... Uh, I guess it's a cousin of structure. Not discipline like, hey, they need spankings. But they just need to have things that are organized. They need to understand that, okay, every Monday, Wednesday, Friday, I'm going to do this at 3:00, no question asked. I know it sounds like structure, but it's also discipline, because they're kids and they're not gonna wanna do it. So they have to, they have to start building habits of discipline. Uh, love and attention. That one, I don't... Man. So, I had really loving parents. And my parents couldn't keep their hands off me, and my uncles and aunts couldn't keep their hands off me. I was always on someone's shoulder. Someone always had their hand up the back of my shirt. Someone was always pinching my cheeks. Someone was always holding me upside down. I mean, I, I, I don't know how, um... I don't, I don't know, I don't know. That one's so innate in me, I don't know how you would teach that. I don't know how you would, you would work on that. Other than maybe to just love yourself more.
- CWChris Williamson
But you can see love and attention, attention requires time, and if you have someone who hasn't perhaps turned the corner that you and your wife have... And another thing to consider is that because you guys are further through your careers and have lived more life, perhaps some of the open loops, "Oh, I would've unfulfilled dream X, I would've this particular dream Y," um, those things are now closed. Also, by the sounds of things, chasing materialistic goals for you is quite low down the list of priorities, especially in comparison to your kids now. And with that being a fact as well, like, there's no reason to go to work. You know, you've got the, the classic CEO of a Fortune 500 company, you know, working and the, the, the matron or the au pair, or whoever they've got comes round and looks after the kids, and then he gives it a tap on the head at night and then goes to bed and wakes up three hours later and goes back to the office, or flies off to Japan to do a deal, whatever it might be. Like, that's a way that would very quickly get in the way of attention, right? You can't give love and attention if you're not there, if you're not present.
- 45:00 – 1:00:00
Have your kids made…
- SMSevan Matossian
'Cause if I don't, then it's about me. But it's not about me. It's about them. It's about, like...
- CWChris Williamson
Have your kids made you a better husband?
- SMSevan Matossian
Yeah, for sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure, for sure, for sure, for sure, for sure.
- CWChris Williamson
How?
- SMSevan Matossian
100% better. Um, I am... I'm already a loyal person. I'm a very loyal person. Um, I can take a lot of abuse from, once I'm locked in with someone, I can take a lot of abuse and still be loyal, but I'm even more fiercely loyal to her. Maybe, you know, if I were, um, support her in her endeavors because she's painting her Sistine Chapel too, right? We're working on the same canvas. And so, I wanna give her, I'm, I don't wanna do anything to disturb her while she's painting, right? I don't wanna do any ripples that will cause her to be a lesser mom than she needs to be. And...
- CWChris Williamson
So I get that. I get that, and that makes sense. But that, to me, appears to have the f- the locus of love be the children rather than each other. Now I appreciate that you guys are still a team, but how many couples do we see that have kids and the stress of having the kids doesn't bind them together but it pushes them apart? And you have couples who've been together and then Johnny's two years old or Alice is one and a half years old, and the relationship breaks down. So I'm trying to, I'm trying to delve into the relationship between you and her, not in service of the kids.
- SMSevan Matossian
You know, so we... uh, that's a good question, and maybe I've lost sight of that. I need to think about that. But we were together for so long, so we met as college kids, right? And we partied in the same circle, and I courted her for five years, and I knew her boyfriend and she knew my girlfriend. And, um, then we got together, and then we were together for 15 years, and we traveled the world together for work, and then we worked together. And, you know what's interesting, Chris? I- I- I'd forgotten about this but I was, I was living in- in a pickup truck and I was sitting in the back of a pickup truck in Isla Vista, California. It's a beach town, college town. And I was laying there, just with my shorts on and shirt off, just waiting for it to warm up so I could go to the beach, and I was reading the Tao Te Ching. And I see her walking down the street towards me, and I'm like, "Oh, man, I'm gonna talk to this chick and, you know, see if she'll come to the beach with me." I mean, that's the kind of town it was, right? And I'd seen her around before. So I jump out of the back of my truck. She's like, "What are you reading? What are you reading?" And we start talking, and she's also into Lao Tzu and the Tao Te Ching. And from that moment, and we've talked extensively about it over the 20 years and we talk about it regularly, we knew that we were both personally responsible for our happiness. And when you're in a relationship with someone like that, eventually, at the end of the day, you can throw all of your fights and problems kind of into that light, and it will shed a ton of light on it, 'cause each person is, like, personally responsible. The blame game really goes away, and so I'd say like 95% of the problems go away. So, just qui- qui- quickly off the top of my head, I- I- I believe that's the foundation of our relationship, and I believe that's why we've, um, done so well. Um, of course, who knows what will happen maybe in 15 years or 20 years when the kids move out. (laughs) We'll get a divorce.
- CWChris Williamson
Well, that's a whole, that's a whole nother-
- SMSevan Matossian
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
... boundary for people to get over, man. That really is.
- SMSevan Matossian
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Like...
- SMSevan Matossian
Yeah, yeah, I hear, I hear you. I just can't even imagine that. My brain's, my brain, as you ask me that, my brain's just like, "There's no fucking way." Like, like, like, you, it- it's also this. Um, have you ever had a friend who you played a sport with, and like you guys are best friends and you do it seven days a week? You just, every single day, you're doing it, you're doing it. And then one of you drifts off and doesn't do that sport anymore, and so your friendship just takes its natural progression and it just, it just wanes. It's not, you're, they're still best friends, but now you only see them once a year instead of with them 12 hours a day.So, I don't know what the glue is, but something's kept us together, um, whether it be life, um, these kids. But, um, right now, we're closer than ever. I mean, we just, we just, we just work these kids.
- CWChris Williamson
That's awesome, man. Okay. So-
- SMSevan Matossian
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... we've got one, two, and three done?
- SMSevan Matossian
Stru- structure, discipline, follow through.
- CWChris Williamson
Follow through.
- SMSevan Matossian
And, and, and we sort of touched on the follow through, too, 'cause that's part of sort of number... Oh, man, maybe there's seven.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah. (laughs)
- SMSevan Matossian
Um, follow, follow through is if you say something, you have to do it. And it, I, I, I screwed this up in the beginning a lot, because I would lay down disciplines that I wasn't really willing to follow through with. So, if your kid... If, if Friday is movie night, and Friday morning, your kid does something to piss you off, don't say, "Hey, if you do that one more time, I'm not gonna give you movie night." Because that's a long fucking 10 hours for your kid to work on you and change your mind. (laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- SMSevan Matossian
Do you know what I mean? So, he throws something at the, at the breakfast table. You tell him not to. If he does it again, you're gonna take away movie night. He throws it again, and you take away movie night. Um, now you have 10 hours. And another thing my wife taught me. So, my wife taught me that. "Hey, make sure that you're able to follow through." Um, the other thing is, the follow through ideally and... should be connected to... The, the, the consequence should be ideally connected to the crime. So, you, not necessarily you take away movie night, but then you, maybe it's more like, "Okay, that's the second time you've thrown it. You're dismissed from the table. You can eat again at lunch." I don't know. And you would just make them stop eating breakfast or something like that. But you... Once you make threats, you better follow through. If you don't, there is no homeostasis. It's not like, "Okay, that's a wash." You're either getting, making better kids and being a better parent, or you're making worse kids and being a worse parent. There's no like, "Okay, we're just happily in the middle." It, it's never, ever, ever like that. And so, um, the f- the follow through is key, because if you don't, you're going the op- you're, you're going the opposite direction. You're making worse kids. And so, you have to be really careful what comes out of your mouth. And that includes, like, "Hey, I'm gonna... Tonight, when I come home from work, I'm gonna make LEGOs with you for 30 minutes." You gotta do it. You gotta do it. You want there to be... And, and then all of those other things will get bolstered too. You're showing structure, you're showing your discipline, you're showing your boundaries, all of that. If you can't do it, if your kid asks you, "Hey, will you make LEGOs with me tonight?" But you're afraid to say no 'cause you know he's gonna scream. And you, so you say yes anyway, and then don't do it, you're screwing up two of the, two of the, my premises. You've now been held in a hostage situation, and now you're not doing follow through. So-
- CWChris Williamson
How can, how can parents say no more productively?
- SMSevan Matossian
Don't, don't lie to your kid. Don't sugarcoat it. Don't, don't, don't, don't fool around. In the long run, all of that stuff will just bite you in the ass. If you can't, if you can't tell the truth, don't say anything. Take a few deep breaths. You know, let's say your kid's in the back seat and you're driving them home from class, and they say, "Mommy, can I stop at McDonald's?" And you know when you say no, they're gonna start screaming in the back and you don't wanna hear it. Fine, take a few deep breaths and then say no and brace yourself. You'd be surprised how often they don't scream once they respect you, that your no means no. I would say 95% of the times kids scream for more than 20 seconds, it's because they know that there's a crack in the dam. They know that you might give in. Once you're consistent with nos, and you give it to the kid straight every time, you, you'll see that go away. You'll really, really see that go away. I mean, literally, people are blown away the fact that I can just walk right by an ice cream shop while the kid's outside eating, and my kids won't... You know, at most, maybe one out of ten times, they'll say, "Can we have an ice cream?" I go, "No, we don't eat ice cream here. You know that." And that's it. That's it.
- CWChris Williamson
One of the things that was playing through my mind as you talked about your idea of-
- SMSevan Matossian
Oh, sorry, sorry, sorry. Sorry, to answer your question, it's never easy saying no. Okay, sorry. (laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs) I imagine, I imagine the, um, the pulling on the heartstrings, like especially... I'm, like, quite an emotional person naturally and quite empathetic. Uh, you know, I, I fear the, the size of love that I'm gonna have for whatever humans that I do bring into this world. Uh, and I imagine that it is quite hard to say no on a number of levels that you want your kid to be happy. You want your kid to love you. All of the self-esteem issues that you've got about wanting to be liked and wanting to be loved by your kid will also still be in there as well, because of how you were treated at school or how you were treated by your parents. And then you don't want to deal with the headache of them screaming, and you don't want the public outcry when people look at you as that parent with that screaming child and stuff. So, I imagine that saying no is, is a challenge, especially if you can't say no to yourself. If you're the person that says, "I'm gonna quit drinking" once every six months and never follows through with it, I put this in my newsletter not long ago, that having faith in your own word is one of the most important things that you can do. You need to treat yourself like somebody you are responsible for helping, to Jordan Peterson-ism. And if you don't have trust that what you say you're going to do, after a while, just like the friend that keeps on never showing up when you invite them for coffee, you're just not gonna invite them anymore, or maybe you're even gonna hate them. So, you very much need to treat yourself like a friend. And if you are going to bring kids into this world, you really need to sort your own shit first. If you don't have self-discipline, if you don't have structure, if you don't have a growth mindset, if you're not able to let things pass, like, all that you're going to do is further ingrain that into your children. And I think we very much need to see...... the, um, how do you say? The heritage, the, the genealogy of your habits, your routines being taken into your children. And this is what was making me think when you were talking about the set of scales, about you're either becoming a better parent or you're becoming a worse parent, and that goes along with better kids or worse kids. Um, there's a quote from Ethan Suplee, the guy from Remember the Titans and Wolf of Wall Street, huge, huge, like, massive 500-pound guy who's now 230 and jacked, like 8% body fat. He came on the show, he had a martial arts instructor who used the, the saying, "No bad reps." And what no bad reps means is that you're always drilling something. Every action that you do. And this relates to neurologically how we lay down myelin in- in sheets in our brain. You are always creating a habit. You, you don't have the choice of not creating a habit. It's a decision between one particular habit and another type of habit. There is no no habit. There is only this, that, or the other habit, and very much so with the kids. It, it, it, very, it harks to hard choices, easy life, easy choices, hard life. And there isn't a okay choice, okay life. There isn't, there isn't one of those. It's always going to be a decision between what's right and what necessarily isn't.
- SMSevan Matossian
Perfect. Perfectly said. Going back to that very first thought about you're gonna want, it's gonna be hard to say no, because you want them to love you, and that is the, that is the p- at the end of the day, the equation that will get you the most love (laughs) is to have really, really strong boundaries with your kids. Really, really strong boundaries. What, because-
- CWChris Williamson
See, that seems count- counterintuitive.
- 1:00:00 – 1:15:00
(laughs) …
- CWChris Williamson
genius to work out what's gonna go on there. And you can hear in the background (claps) "Eh."
- SMSevan Matossian
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs) You know, like-
- SMSevan Matossian
Well-
- CWChris Williamson
... I'm thinking on the phone.
- SMSevan Matossian
... that-
- CWChris Williamson
I'm thinking on the phone, "Do you need to go?" Like, and I'm waiting to hear in your voice the, um, the anxiety, the anticipation. I'm waiting to hear the, the discomfort arise. And it doesn't. And I don't know whether you're walking over to him, or he's coming over to you, or whatever it might be, but what... A couple of times, you said, "Hey, sweetie, I'm on the phone, so you can come here and lick your wounds, but if you do, I need you to be quiet, okay?"
- SMSevan Matossian
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
That was it. And it took 15 seconds for whichever of the three children that was to be just sniffly, like I could barely hear him.
- SMSevan Matossian
That's just sloppy parenting on my part, um, taking (laughs) them to the skate park and scheduling a phone call with, uh, Chris, Chris Williamson.
- CWChris Williamson
Multitasking, multitasking.
- SMSevan Matossian
Okay. (laughs) Uh, it's funny, I, I, I hear parents say that all the time about how you should multitask. And, um, I have a few friends that when they call me, like, I'll always answer even if I'm, like, fucking, you know, neck-deep in shit. But, uh, yeah. It's, um, you, you... If you, if you have boundaries, your kids will love you more. The more you say no to them, the more they'll love you. I know that's a little gross exaggeration and not a perfect equation, but your kids have to feel safe around you. And, and they're, they are going to look back when they're older, and they're going to see all the things that you did to them that didn't help them. They're going to say, like, "I never let my parents live it down. Oh my God, you took me to McDonald's three days a week. I can't believe it. And I was seven years old and you let me order the 20-piece with seven hot mustards. What was wrong with you?" You know what I mean? (laughs) Like-Um, it doesn't mean your kids don't get free time, it doesn't mean that they don't get to rage. There just have to be certain boundaries, and they have to be logical boundaries. And, uh, and- and you'd be surpri- you'd be surprised, um, if- if you're a short-term gra- if you're a quick, short-term gratification guy, yeah, then saying no is gonna be hard. But I can tell by looking at your physique and your dedication to this podcast and your business that, like, you're not a short-term gratification guy. It's gonna come very, very naturally for you. I know that you put in...
- CWChris Williamson
I- I think, I hope that it, uh...
- SMSevan Matossian
... you put the work in.
- CWChris Williamson
I hope that it will, but I also know, I see firsthand we're all our worst critics, right? So we all see our own sort of failings up close and personal. Uh, and on top of that-
- SMSevan Matossian
Right.
- CWChris Williamson
... I also know that even as, what I would consider hopelessly undisciplined, I'm still wildly more disciplined than most of the people that I know, um, which-
- SMSevan Matossian
Right.
- CWChris Williamson
... you know, it's that- that old saying where they say, "Think about how stupid the average person is and realize that half pe- half of the people are more stupid than that." Um, if you think about-
- SMSevan Matossian
Right.
- CWChris Williamson
... how undisciplined the average person is-
- SMSevan Matossian
Wow, wow.
- CWChris Williamson
... and then realize that 50% of people are less disciplined than that person, like, that's quite scary. Um, and again, it kinda goes back to what I was saying earlier on about the heritage that your children are going to get is very much a microcosm of what you are. We see this even in businesses, you know? You see, coming out of the CrossFit world, like, think about the internal company culture that you get with an owner like Greg Glassman and a games director like Dave Castro. You see that. You see that. Even if people perhaps didn't want that to be the way that they acted forward, we, my core industry of club promo, I could stand on a- on a street corner and look at the different PRs that are going, "Hey guys, where are you going tonight? Do you wanna come to our nightclub?" Uh, putting wristbands on people. I could stand on a street corner, and without seeing the badge that they have that tells us their- their company, I could identify by their mannerisms and by what they're wearing, that guy works for that company, that guy works for that company, that guy... Because they're just little projections of the guys that own it at the top. Everybody knows this.
- SMSevan Matossian
Right.
- CWChris Williamson
You know, and-
- SMSevan Matossian
Right.
- CWChris Williamson
... this is the same in family life, as it is in business life, as it is in everything else.
- SMSevan Matossian
Right. Right. Um, you- you want people to like your kids. You want people to like your club. Set your- set- set- set the culture up in your business so that people like your business, and set your culture up at your home with your kids so people like your kids. People love kids with boundaries. Peop- and- and- and at the end of the day, the harsh reality of life at the end of the day is hard work and who you know, and who likes you. So, those of you who are in high school who are listening to this and you're like, "Oh, I can't wait to get out of high school when the popularity contest is over," I have really bad news for you.
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- SMSevan Matossian
It's never over.
- 1:15:00 – 1:19:12
We've talked a lot…
- SMSevan Matossian
make them the best... I think you and I joked about this a little bit. I wanna make them the best mates possible. I want girls to like them, and I want boys to like them, and I want, I want people to like them, and I want them to be able to live up to that, um, love that they receive from the world.
- CWChris Williamson
We've talked a lot about-
- SMSevan Matossian
I want them nerds. Go on, nerd, nerd.
- CWChris Williamson
We've talked a lot about, um, the sort of the physical side. You get your kids to train. They do sort of complex physical movements, jumping on bars and balance beams and bits and pieces like that. One thing that we haven't really touched on is more the intellectual, kind of, cognitive cerebral development. What have been some of the realizations that you've got from that?
- SMSevan Matossian
So they, so they do math and reading every single day from the age of three for anywhere between five and 20 minutes.
- CWChris Williamson
Are you homeschooled?
- SMSevan Matossian
Um, Avi's supposed to be... Uh, Avi's supposed to be in school right now. It's supposed to be a, it's a homeschool program. Um, even without following the curriculum, he's above and beyond just because from such a young age, at three, we've been doing this five to 20 minutes every single day. Um, I just played chess with him for the first time a couple days ago. I was inspired by something I saw on Instagram, another, a friend of mine who has three sons who was playing, um, chess with his kids. Um, I do sight words with them, I do spelling with them, and then he has to read for 20 minutes every day. Guess I could do those things with my son, but I'm 48 and I don't wanna get injured, and I'm, like, very, like, careful not to get injured because I push myself so hard all day with the kids. So, like, people are like, "Hey, why aren't you taking jujitsu?" It's because I don't mind sitting on the sideline and watching. And then people will be like, "Well, you'll get a better outcome if you do it." And maybe they're right. I don't know that. But I have heard that a lot, that philosophy that you should be doing the activities with your kids. "You should be doing soccer, you should be doing wrestling, you should be doing jujitsu." But I don't do that-
- CWChris Williamson
Is it not, is it not massively that you just don't want your kid to be able to beat you up? Like, there's gonna become a point-
- SMSevan Matossian
Oh, I-
- CWChris Williamson
... where Avi's gonna be able to submit you-
- SMSevan Matossian
Dude, close. If I just put out a limb, he's, like, all over me. Like, if I just put my hand on his head, like, and grab his head strong, his, he's all over me. He's gonna be able to beat me up when he's eight. Um, but, um, but what I really, really like about all of this instruction is my son, sons are getting, um, personal, one-on-one interaction from professional trainers. They're learning their vocabulary. They're learning all their different personalities. They're learning all their different demeanors. I hear Avi come home from tennis and using words like, you know, volley and love and just so you kno- And then he comes home from striking, w- while I'm there, and the, and he's like, "Hey, check out my feint." And then he's all, "Look at my parry," and he's like, his vocabulary. Or when he goes to dance, he's like, "Did you know plie means bend?" And, you know. Um, so I really... Uh, and I've said this before, and I really mean this, first and foremost, before any of the physical activity, I like just the idea of them getting professional training. I love the idea of them getting, um, getting this interaction with other adults one-on-one. It, it, it, he's really, really manned up. It's really made him, like, a fun social animal as a kid. But he's still wild and crazy like a kid, you know? It hasn't taken any o- the kid out of him. So for now, I don't know what the long-term... Well, the long-term goal is I would love for him to learn everything there is to know about math, take math to the far, far reaches of the, you know, calculus, trigonometry galaxy. And then English, become a master of the, the, the English language. Um, one of the largest vocabularies of anyone I've ever met was Greg Glassman, and it truly made him a magician, because when you have an enormous vocabulary and you're comfortable juxtaposing any words together that you f- deem can be put together, um, you then conduct reality. That's another Taoist saying, "Naming is the origin of all particular things." And so I would love for him to be able to diagram sentences and have a complete handle on English and then a complete handle on math, and the rest I could give two shits about, because hopefully he'll grow up to be someone like you, Chris, who's like a reading machine, and he can teach himself-
Episode duration: 1:28:25
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