A Growth-Minded Guide To Raising Superhuman Kids | Sevan Matossian | Modern Wisdom Podcast 243

Sevan Matossian 0:00 Don't lie to your kid. Don't sugarcoat it. Don't fool around. In the long run, all of that stuff will just bite you in the ass. If you can't tell the truth, don't say anything. Let's say your kid's in the back seat and you're driving them home from class, and they say, "Mommy, can I stop at McDonald's?" And you know when you say no, they're gonna start screaming in the back and you don't want to hear it. Fine, take a few deep breaths and then say no and brace yourself. You'd be surprised how often they don't scream once they respect you, that your no means no.

Chris Williamson 0:31 (wind blowing) Sevan, how are you, my friend?

Sevan Matossian 0:34 I'm amazing. Living the dream and someone else's nightmare.

Chris Williamson 0:37 (laughs) I've had a couple of cracks at the intro desperately trying to get your name right. Uh, but here we are. What do you think we're gonna talk about today? We got a lot of different avenues that we can go down. What do you reckon we're gonna talk about?

Sevan Matossian 0:51 I am a very simple man with not a lot to talk about, so you better nail it right on the button, or else it's gonna be a real dull podcast. (laughs)

Chris Williamson 1:01 I disagree massively. So okay, first question is, how come you have made a name for yourself doing a thing that 90% of humans do, which is raising kids?

Sevan Matossian 1:14 Whew. Um, I love publishing. I love creating stuff. I use social media as a cheap publishing platform. It is not something that I use to really scroll around on, um, even though they're always tempting me in the Reels with those girls, like, doing all those fancy dances and barely clothed. Um, and I bought a computer to, uh, I got a computer and the editing software that Apple released the day it released it in 2000 whatever. I was living in my car. I plugged the computer into my cigarette lighter, and from that day forward I've used Final Cut Pro, Adobe Premier, some video, and I've been creating video for over 20 years, TV shows, movies, commercials, YouTube, Instagram. And so basically what happened is, I have my three... I've, I've been... and now I know what happened. I've been preparing all these years because now I have my three favorite subjects of all time, my three sons. Um, Avi who's six, um, Ari and Joseph who are twins who are three. And they are, um, not only my Sistine Chapel, they're gonna be my greatest work ever, but I'm gonna record it because that's what I enjoy to do. And so, (laughs) they do some stuff on Instagram that's got them, uh, some attention, and, um, and so that's how our, I think our, our paths have crossed. And we both CrossFit, and I think we're both sort of in that ecosystem.

Chris Williamson 2:42 Lots of people take videos of their kids though. You know? Like th- it's every, every mom that I know is so trigger happy with the camera. So how come... What, what makes you worthy of people caring what you do with them?

Sevan Matossian 2:56 So the... and, um, so, so one, I have 20 years of experience of creating videos, so maybe I... and, and, in my, in my previous life I created more than probably... in 2007, '8, '9, I created, I don't know, I want to say a piece of content every single day for CrossFit Inc. And, um, there was even a joke at CrossFit Inc. that it should be called Sevan.com and not CrossFit.com. I think there was a day where they published my stuff 42 days in a row in 2010. And so I've had a ton of practice, right? So I know on some level how to, um, intuitively I guess, um, to present my kids in a manner that would be intriguing, but not only intriguing, educational. My point, my, my, my main goal of publishing is I just want to add value to people's lives, right? So I want people to see... Fir- 50% of it is I just like to create stuff, and on the other side- or the other 50% is I want it to add value to

Sevan Matossian 3:56 their lives. And because I'm a CrossFitter, and because I have this, um, unwavering belief in the CrossFit methodology, which the foundation is diet and then up from there it's movement, um, and, and that struggle causes adaptation, that's how I'm raising my kids. I basically... there's two, two basic premises for how I'm raising my kids. I'm using the CrossFit methodology, and then I'm sort of ewing- using Taoist principles or principles of the journey to enlightenment through, like, maybe, like, uh, Vipassana or creating space or, um, not stilling the mind but, um, watching myself and making sure that I'm making the best decisions for my kids as a human being. I know that was a lot. I was really trying to condense it in there. But those are sort of the two outside things. You're seeing physically how I'm training them and the things that I'm asking them to do and show them to do and the diet that they're consuming on my platform, but then you're also... and I've only recently started sharing this. I'm sharing with people how I work through the hard times, you know, whether it be their temper tantrums, their pressing back. And I do that through, um, really in the simplest way, Taoist principles, or just really, really staying still and sort of becoming nothing. And by nothing, I mean no thing. Not, you know, no thing. And so that they can, um, resolve their own, their own problems. Doesn't always work out. (laughs)

Chris Williamson 5:28 (laughs) Did you always know-

Sevan Matossian 5:29 But that... And, and-

Chris Williamson 5:30 Did, did you always know-

Sevan Matossian 5:31 Go ahead.

Chris Williamson 5:31 ... that you were going to be some savant sage of experimental child-rearing?

Sevan Matossian 5:39 No. No, and I don't, I don't... um, I don't know. And I don't, I don't accept that. Like, I don't think that about myself, and I didn't know that. So, uh, my, my wife and I were... we were married... we're, we been together 20 years. And the entire time the plan was not to get married and not to have kids. I had no interest in it. I thought people who got married were just tools of the man, just followers, and I thought that there were enough kids on the planet. Who am I to contribute? What can I contribute? And then some... and then we were living with some friends, and they had a baby. So we were in a house, and now there's a baby. And then my...... closest friend in life, he had a baby. And somehow, that triggered my wife at 39 years old to be like, "Hey, I want a baby." So we had a baby. And it was just like, uh, I mean, it was so just casual. Um, and something happened. I'd, I, I can't, like, uh, biologically, emotionally, mentally, um, there's this Daoist saying, "Stop thinking and all your problems will go away." And that's basically at, I'm 48 years old, um, and s- uh, I, I point my age out because my 30s were my grinding years, so I don't know how this would've turned out if I would've had a kid at 34 'cause I was so, you know, I, I, I shot movies in 100 different countries. I mean, I was on the ball. And so now, I don't wanna do anything. Something just happened. I don't wanna do anything but be with my kids. That's it. Like, I have no, like, that's it. I don't, I don't, I, I, to this day- (laughs)

Chris Williamson 7:17 That's terrifying to hear, man. Like, uh, uh, that absolutely terrifies me. And I've been talking about this a lot, especially this year, that there is an archetype for women who hit sort of 30 and then perhaps start to get a little bit more serious about settling down. But for men, I don't think that we quite have that, and we live through archetypes, right? We live through these sort of cliché grand narratives where we look up to the classic, uh, uh, um, roles that people play in movies or in books or whatever it might be, and there isn't an equivalent for the young guy who has served his time burning the candle at both ends and now really wants a family, likes the idea of a family. And to hear that, that there is a switch somewhere inside of us that none of us knew even existed, and at some point, all of the other guys who are listening who have been loving being independent, sovereign agents with upward mobility and freedom to do whatever they wanted, "I'm going to Dubai tomorrow because I can. What's the point in having fuck you freedom if you never say fuck you?" And at some point, I can potentially have this switch turned on which completely flattens my entire world view and makes me become at the mercy of these little m- miracle creatures that I've just brought into the world, and the rest of my life's going to stop. That's like b- beautiful and terrifying at the same time.

Sevan Matossian 8:45 L- let me, let me, uh, maybe I'll shed some light on it, and what, I don't know if what I'm saying is true. But let's say that we go out in search of life, and when we go out, we're just mirrors and we're just looking for perfect reflections of ourselves, right? And so, that's the struggle of life, that we can't find that perfect reflection, so we move from relationship to relationship and coffee shop to coffee shop and job to job and buying car to car, and we're, uh, either trying to scratch something inside or outside, but we're looking for that perfect reflection. Maybe, I've never explored this except for just now, maybe what happens is these guys came out, and they just start reflecting me perfectly. And bam, they got me, right?

Chris Williamson 9:26 Why do you think the reflection is what we're looking for?

Sevan Matossian 9:35 Through my personal experience of what I call watching my mind, but some people call meditating, watching, it's not just my mind, it's watching my body, all sensations. I see things arise, whether it be a scratch on my arm, or a thought that I'm hungry, or, "Oh, my toe hurts," or, "Oh, my back hurts," uh, and they come in sensations and words and emotions. There is then a desire to move or act to alleviate or respond to that sensation, thought, whatever came out of you. So, you look for an external fulfillment. You look for something externally instead of letting it pass. So, you're hungry, I'm working on my computer editing a podcast, it's ten o'clock at night, I'm hungry. I turn the volume up on the podcast so I can hear it as I go to the kitchen and stuff myself with two handfuls of macadamia nuts, right? Or I could just let that pass, it i- and it is gonna pass, but most people, I, I, I shouldn't say this. In the past, in my life, as I grew up, I wouldn't let that pass. I would itch every single, and so that's where I come up with the mirror, the mirror thing. We're looking for something outside of us to alleviate the discomforts that come inside. That's why people lie and just all sorts of stuff. You're looking to alleviate discomfort. It's sort of, and that's what makes us kind of like flies. We twitch from one pile of shit to the next because we're looking to alleviate discomfort. Any- and, and I use the word discomfort super broad, like, you know. And so, the goal would be to just, um, let those things, well, different subject, but when I'm around my kids, I'm especially focused on letting those things pass, and it's pretty easy to let those things pass because they're giving me everything I need.

Chris Williamson 11:39 Did you own a dog b-

Sevan Matossian 11:40 They're reflecting me perfectly.

Chris Williamson 11:41 Did you own a dog before you had kids?

Sevan Matossian 11:44 Great question. Yes. (laughs) I did own a dog. I had three Great Danes in my motor home, and then I had this little, after that I had this little tiny Chihuahua.

Chris Williamson 11:54 Okay, which was harder to raise?

Sevan Matossian 11:58 The Danes. It's a lot of shit.

Chris Williamson 12:00 (laughs)

Sevan Matossian 12:01 It's a lot of shit and a lot of piss.

Chris Williamson 12:02 (laughs) Just sheer volume.

Sevan Matossian 12:03 They, oh, man, I, you, I saw like morning pees that would be like two minutes long from my dog.

Chris Williamson 12:10 (laughs)

Sevan Matossian 12:10 And just destroying gardens and like, I mean, it's, Danes are-

Chris Williamson 12:14 Ammo- ammonia everywhere.

Sevan Matossian 12:17 ... they're a pain. Yeah, Danes are so much harder.

Chris Williamson 12:18 Got you. Okay. So, I think that...... people who are considering having children really, uh, couples really should try and raise something that's, uh, uh, similarly dependent, i.e., you know, a dog, or I guess a cat. Even cats are too de- independent, right? Um, I, I definitely think that that's a nice on-ramp. Did it prepare you? Did having dogs before help to prepare you for having kids?

Sevan Matossian 12:46 I, y- I don't know. But I will say that the dog bec- when I would hear people get, have kids, and then they would say they'd neglect their dog, I would be like, "I would never do that. I would never neglect my dog." I was wrong. I absolutely neglect my dog. I used to spend a lot of time with my dog. Now, I spend zero time with my dog. I mean, the dog, I just open the car door and he jumps in, and then when we get home, I open it and he gets out. Like, I don't even... (laughs) You know what I... He's an accessory. So, I, I feel bad for him. My wife is much kinder to him and still gives him attention. But I don't know if it made me better. But, but I buy it. I buy what you're saying.

Chris Williamson 13:24 Got you. Okay.

Sevan Matossian 13:25 Yeah, yeah.

Chris Williamson 13:25 So, you hadn't planned to-

Sevan Matossian 13:26 I mean, some arg- some, some arguments might arise, right? I mean, as superficial as it sounds, when you have a kid, y- like, are you gonna circumcise the kid or you're not gonna circumcise the kid? Are you gonna send him to school or you're not gonna send him to school? Is it okay that he chews gum? Is it not okay that he chews gum? I see couples fighting about that shit everywhere I go. It's, it's... And so, if you get a dog, maybe, like, you guys will argue over grain-free food or spending the extra money to get raw food, and you guys can work out some of those, um... w- work out some of those problems, have some arguments and see how it's gonna go. (laughs)

Chris Williamson 14:00 Well, learning how to negotiate when a third party's dependent on you is very different to what most couples have until that happens, right? "I want this, you want that." Maybe my parents think that we should do this, but they're not a dependent. They're just a third party sticking their nose in and making life a bit more difficult.

Sevan Matossian 14:19 Right. Yeah, well-

Chris Williamson 14:20 Um, but, yeah, I think, I think that the, the dog thing's a good starting point. Okay, so you've had dogs. You say, at 39 for your missus, um, which is quite late, I guess, by s- by normal standards now. Although, more women had children under the age, uh, over the age of 40 than under the age of 20 last year in the UK, which is a-

Sevan Matossian 14:41 Wow.

Chris Williamson 14:42 ... unbel- unbelievable statistic. Um, uh-

Sevan Matossian 14:44 Wow, that is.

Chris Williamson 14:45 So, you decide to have kids, 39, and you were...

Sevan Matossian 14:51 I'm 48 now. My oldest is six, so I must have been 42 or 43.

Chris Williamson 14:55 Yep. What, what, what, what happens there? The switch, the switch gets flicked on, but you don't know none of this. You don't know that you need to build... I'm jumping ahead, but you don't know that you need to build, like, the biggest playground made out of soft area things, and learn about m- mindfulness for your kids and stuff like that. You just have a life of lived experiences, which is quite vast, and, and you're a mindful guy that's self-reflective and quite truthful, so I think you have a strong foundation for it. But obviously, like, you have none of the skills. So, do you just start reading books when you find out that your wife's pregnant? What, what happens?

Sevan Matossian 15:28 So, w- e- we had... She has o-... So, basically, we, we start going to, um, birthing classes. And it's, it's a three-hour... I wanna say it's a three-hour class once a week for eight weeks. And we're in that class, and that was pretty incredible because it would be three... I couldn't remember the last time I spent three hours of uninterrupted time with my wife, right? We're just in the class, sitting in a chair (laughs) with our arms around each other, and they have you practice doing all sorts of stuff that I wasn't comfortable doing, like whispering affirmations into her ear, and just all, all this stuff, right? And, and that... But at the end of every three hours, I was, like, stoked. It was... It felt like a, like... I felt closer to my wife from that. And even though it, it... And so when we went... Let me go back a little bit. So, when we went into that class, our plan was to go to the hospital and have the baby, right? I wanted the safest, best medical treatment possible. And then, about halfway through the class, the instructor said, "Hey, you don't wanna do a, a medical birth. You don't wanna do a birth in a hospital." I'm like, "Yeah, I do." And she goes, "No, you don't." And I go, "How do you know?" She goes, "'Cause I listen to the way you talk, and I can tell you do not want a hospital birth." So, I disregarded what the teacher said. But then finally, one day, when we were visiting, um, what is it called? An OBGYN, my wife's OBGYN, I said a couple things to her. I said, "Hey, are you gonna be at the birth?" And she snapped back at me, "What? Do you think I work 24 hours a day, seven days a week?" And I was like, "Whoa, whoa, easy." And then I asked her something else, I can't remember, and she pushed back and got really angry. And then also told me that, though, that this birth is gonna be a partnership. And I'm like, "She's lying to me, or she has a total different view of what a partnership is." So, we started looking at, um, the home birth route, and we had Avi at home, a home birth, just in the living room of our house. This is to answer your question. So, the midwives leave, and then there's this dude.

Chris Williamson 17:15 (laughs)

Sevan Matossian 17:15 It's just me and my wife and this new dude in the house, you know? (laughs) And you're pretty high. You don't sleep for, like, a couple of days. You're like on... You're sky-high, like someone put cocaine in your coffee every morning. I mean, you are just out of your mind high. And fortunately, she just started breastfeeding him, and I just kinda just hung out and made sure I took care of my wife. I just faked it, I guess. I, I, I don't know how I knew what to do, but I just faked it. Just made sure there was plenty of food for her, and she just basically sat around and breastfed him on demand for the first two or three months. Then she started getting out of the house. I know a lot of women get out of the house sooner than that, but she's, she hung tight in the nest. And then she basically bre-

Chris Williamson 17:59 Do you think that's important?

Sevan Matossian 18:01 Uh, yes. For the woman to hang tight, yes. I think when I hear... I mean, and who the hell am I? I'm just some dude. But when I hear women already going out for walks and stuff after a week, I do not think that's smart.

Chris Williamson 18:13 Why?

Sevan Matossian 18:13 I think that there's very few times that human beings should stay still, and that is one of the times. The woman's body has just been through a tremendous amount, and it's a time to, for the woman to reflect and really, really focus on herself, and focus on her baby. And the fact that they... The, the term I hear a lot is they go stir-crazy, that they need to get up and move, or they need to get out, or they need a little cup of coffee, or they need a little bit of wine, or like...

Chris Williamson 18:40 Yeah.

Sevan Matossian 18:42 You know, I'm not judging those people, don't get me wrong, but I do have really strong opinions on it. I'm really glad my wife didn't drink coffee leading up to the pregnancy. I'm really glad she didn't drink wine. I'm glad she really stayed still and took care of her body. If a woman does get up too early and start moving around and be active, she'll start bleeding again. Um, it's a tremendous, it's a tremendous toll on the body, I think, to produce all of that milk. Um, you want the body to heal. Um, literally when she... So, she breastfed Avi for 18 months while the twins were in her growing. Then a month before the twins came out, she stopped breastfeeding. And then the twins came out, and then she stayed in the house for another three months. Imagine that. Like, I bought a... My very first car I ever bought was a van. My wife and I bought a brand new van, and when I pulled it up to the house, that was the first time. It was like, the kids were like two and a half, three months old, the twins. That was the first time she came from the back room and, and looked outside. "Oh, I got a new car." And this is my wife, who's very active, who did CrossFit throughout her entire pregnancy. You know, the woman has abs, she has, she's, she's a beast. And, um, yeah, the healing... And, and maybe she's also... uh, the twins came when she was 42, right? And we had those at home also, which is illegal in the state of California. And, um-

Chris Williamson 20:02 Why is that?

Sevan Matossian 20:03 Isn't that amazing? Because women, I guess, aren't allowed to do what they want in the United S- United States of America.

Chris Williamson 20:09 Is it the fact it was twins?

Sevan Matossian 20:11 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 20:12 So you can't, you can have one, but you can't have two?

Sevan Matossian 20:16 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 20:17 Can you have three?

Sevan Matossian 20:19 I, I don't know. I won't be able to tell you, no-

Chris Williamson 20:20 Oh, so it's two... It's anything over one. So, one, one and a half they're, they're also...

Sevan Matossian 20:26 Very fair question. I'm go- I can only make the assumption that three is also illegal.

Chris Williamson 20:30 Wow. So you've got illicit... Your, your children were brought into this world, smuggled into this world under the cover of, of darkness.

Sevan Matossian 20:42 And, and, and when you... (laughs) And when you have kids at home, they don't get... Like, when you have them in the hospital, I can't... I don't know exactly how it happens, but I think like they get a Social Security number and they get their name stamped in stone in the heavens, and they become official Americans, right? When you have them at home, that doesn't happen. So you have to take them to some office. And it, it's a, uh, it's a... At least in the city of Berkeley, California, it was a pretty low-rent, vile endeavor. Um, just the lines you had to stand in and the places you had to go, and-

Chris Williamson 21:14 With one or two newborn children?

Sevan Matossian 21:17 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 21:18 Yeah. Well, I know, um-

Sevan Matossian 21:19 It's definitely, um...

Chris Williamson 21:19 I'm on Mike Cosio's podcast next week, and obviously him and Ade just had their little one earlier this year. And, um, I know that Mike has... H- him and Ade, classic, like, growth mindset people who are used to consuming a lot of content in any case. They'd just read everything under the sun about birth and babies and, and raising babies. And they were... I was talking to him earlier this year, and he was adamant about a home birth, absolutely adamant about it. Uh, and he had this big laundry list of reasons as to why he had. So that's two for two on people that I respect with regards to child-rearing, saying that-

Sevan Matossian 21:55 (sighs)

Chris Williamson 21:55 ... that is a, a route that they took.

Sevan Matossian 21:58 The second the baby came out, I knew exactly why we did a home birth because I could not imagine moving my wife and that baby at all. I couldn't imagine there being tubes in them, I couldn't imagine someone pricking their feet, I couldn't imagine putting that precious baby in a baby seat and then putting it into a car. I couldn't ima- Like, we were in our nest. It's literally like that. You have the baby and you're in your nest. Now, I don't want to upset anyone. If you had the baby in the hospital and you had a great experience, kudos to you. I'm not suggesting this is... I'm telling you my experience. I could not imagine leaving. I couldn't imagine, well, letting anyone want to touch my baby. I mean, I was just, um... It was perfect. I knew right away, "Wow, we're in the nest." It would be crazy to take the baby out of the nest. It's just like you're not supposed to take a baby bird out of the nest, right? Yeah. So-

Chris Williamson 22:53 Okay. So we've, we've, we've got ourselves to the birth now. But you still-

Sevan Matossian 22:56 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 22:56 Other than these three-hour sessions where you whisper nice things to your wife and hug her, you, I'm still not hearing you assimilating some amount of information which permits you to do progressive things as a parent. When, whereas, when does this start? Other than, other than taking time away from the dog?

Sevan Matossian 23:17 Um, (laughs) so when they... So, because we CrossFit and because I know struggle causes adaptation, I knew right away that tummy time was important, even though people told me not to put the baby on the tummy. I started putting the baby on its tummy, and the baby would scream and cry, and that would rea- that was really hard because you intuitively just want to go over and grab the baby. So I started setting a timer for like 30 seconds. And I would be like, "Hey man, it's only 30 seconds," and I put the baby on its tummy for 30 seconds. Excuse me. Um, then I get, pick it up. Then I do it to a minute, then I do it to three minutes, then I start noticing the baby's comfortable on its stomach. Then it... I, I, I think I posted a video where Avi was two weeks old and he, and he rolled over. That's pretty unheard of for a baby, right? Then I would also see people who never put their babies down and their babies didn't crawl. Now, I know that's anecdotal. I don't have any proof of that. But I saw many-

Chris Williamson 24:12 Everything today's anecdotal, isn't it? So it doesn't matter.

Sevan Matossian 24:15 (laughs) Every, everything, every time I saw someone not put their baby down... And it's hard putting your baby down, man. Here's something you'll love, Chris. This is gonna be you when you're a dad. I never used a carrier, and I hated to use the stroller unless the baby was sleeping. So I would carry the baby everywhere because they were... I figured either I need to be getting strong or the baby needs to be getting strong. So when I got tired of holding the baby, I would just set it on the ground. Coffee shop floor, set him on the ground.

Chris Williamson 24:42 (laughs)

Sevan Matossian 24:43 You know? And then just, and then just stand over him, just ready to just destroy anything that got- gets near him, you know? All foot, five foot, 550 pounds of me. And, um...... that, and, and so I knew right away that, um, you should, you should, you should cause a little b- you should cause controlled struggle in the baby's life. You should give him... And, and I've seen babies in a hundred different countries, how they're raised. I spent a lot of time in Africa. I probably made 10 trips to Africa and spent, I don't know, four or five, six months of my life there throughout all those trips. Uh, those men who I- I've seen in Africa, in like, in, in the really rural parts of Africa, are made of fucking steel and are strong as... I mean, they're freaks of nature, and their lives are hard. Like, I saw, I saw, I saw, you know, one-year-old babies just s- sitting or standing around in the fields while the moms were, you know, trying to get water or hoe the fields. I'm gonna close this window so the dog doesn't bark.

Chris Williamson 25:44 Cool.

Sevan Matossian 25:49 Excuse me. So, so I knew, I knew early on, I, I have to give Greg Glassman's CrossFit methodology, like, probably, you know, in hindsight, 100% credit, but now that I'm my own man, it's all me. (laughs) But I'm gonna have to give... Yeah, it's like, it's like, it's that CrossFit L1, man, I- I can't stop talking about it. It's, um, it's where I learned about how human beings operate. It's the operating manual for the human, human genome. If you wanna know how to best operate or treat a human being, then you have to take that L1. And I'll even go as far as to say that if you have kids and you don't take the L1, I think that you're, um, borderline being, neglecting your duties.

Chris Williamson 26:31 What is the L1? What's the elevator pitch?

Sevan Matossian 26:33 That, that, just, so, sorry. So, the L1, it's basically, it's a two-day course. CrossFit offers it. Um, Nicole Carroll runs the program. It used to be Nicole and Dave, Carroll and Dave Castro. It's basically all of Greg Glassman's teachings-

Chris Williamson 26:45 Mm-hmm.

Sevan Matossian 26:45 ... and the modifications of Nicole and Dave, and the amazing, um, seminar staff have made to it over the years. And it basically teaches you, um, how to eat and how to move. And there's nothing there... Uh, I think these are Greg's words, that Greg invented, these are just movements that, um, God created, like, like sitting on a... Like squatting down and taking a dump and being able to wipe your own butt. And if you take it to the extreme, you end up with someone like Matt Fraser, and if you use it to raise a baby, you'll end up, like, with Avi, Joseph, and Ari, my three sons.

Chris Williamson 27:17 Brilliant.

Sevan Matossian 27:17 And basically, constantly varied, always changing, movements that are natural, you know, like squatting. Um, and, uh, as you become better at them, ratchet up the intensity, make it harder. And when the body's put in discomfort, that sucker adapts, right? I also, and on the psychological side, I never... My parents didn't push me. They did not push me. And when they did push me, they didn't follow through. Now, I have great parents, my parents are awesome and super supportive, but I know that I had crazy capacity as a kid, and I spent most of it riding my bike around the neighborhood, throwing rocks and chasing girls. And I just feel like, um, I wish I danced better and I wish I could kick ass better, so those are a couple of things that I'm making sure my boy can do. He takes ballet, he just started tap, and, um, he takes martial arts. You know, started at three days a week when he was four, and my twins at three, and now they're at five and six days a week. So, um-

Chris Williamson 28:17 So, the principle that you said, there's two key underlying principles, one of them being progressive overload, essentially, um, that you get them to do a thing, and then over time, you increase the exposure to that thing. You also allow for variation in that. And the second one was, I guess what Corey Allen would call the mindfulness gap, observing their mind, allowing them to s- to notice their emotions and let it pass, and the same for yourself. Is that i- is that the, that's the, the sort of two foundational principles?

Sevan Matossian 28:48 Yeah. Yeah. Are we done?

Chris Williamson 28:51 Yeah. That's it. Game over.

Sevan Matossian 28:51 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 28:51 Thank you. See you next time. Um, so we- we-

Sevan Matossian 28:55 So, let me, let me give you these too because I wrote this down, just- just so, in case you... Structure, discipline, follow-through, love, and boundaries. Those are, I wrote those down. Those are like five, five principles I talk about a lot. And then you can't let your kids hold you hostage. You can dig into any of those, um, but yes, those first two things that you say, basically put them through an, uh, a controlled struggle, since life is pretty easy here in the United States, and then yes, be, you have to make space so that, um, when you put them on their tummy... Is that dog barking too loud?

Chris Williamson 29:32 Uh, it might be best if he can knock it off, and I'll, uh, I'll just pause this for a second.

Sevan Matossian 29:35 I've made up a lot of reasons to take a break on podcasts, but it's always 'cause I have to go to the bathroom. This is, I think, the first honest-

Chris Williamson 29:41 You've actually done a, done a-

Sevan Matossian 29:42 ... honest break.

Chris Williamson 29:43 ... done a proper break. Okay, so, um, yes, gotta make space. Uh, let's, let's go through your five principles that you've written down there, then. Let's just go from the top.

Sevan Matossian 29:53 Okay. So, they, they want to please you, and they want to be safe. Kids want to please their parents, and they want to be safe. And so you have to figure out how you're gonna do that. What are you gonna have them do, you know, to get your attention? And how are you gonna make it safe? And, um, I'd, uh, I- I don't know, uh, to go back to your previous question, I don't know how... I don't remember how I know that, but I just, maybe, maybe I observed it or maybe someone told me. I wish I could give someone credit for it, but I know that. I know he really, really, really wants to please me, and I know that he really, really wants to... He flourishes when he's safe. How do you make it safe? You have to have crazy boundaries for your kid. And the boundaries you set, they don't even need to be, they don't even need to be legitimate boundaries. By legitimate, I mean you don't even have to justify them. So, let me tell you one of the boundaries I have. My kid is never to touch my cellphone.... ever, ever, ever, ever, ever. It's easy. You just don't touch my cell phone. I don't let you watch movies on my cell phone, you don't watch cartoons on my cell phone. You don't hold my cell phone. That's my cell phone. It's a boundary, and I follow through by never, ever, ever breaking it. Now, what's my kid know about me? You, you would think from the outside that they're learning, hey, they're not getting your cell phone. Right? That, they're learning so much more than that. They're seeing that I'm in control. When they see that I'm in control, guess what they get? Freedom. So much freedom. I'm in control. I'm sitting at the top of the hill as the big lion, looking out over the savanna, and they can play freely, 'cause I'm in control. And how do they know I have control? Because I have boundaries. There's no toys allowed in this room behind me. There's no exceptions. There's no, "I'm sick." There's no, "Oh, this is a stuffed animal." This room doesn't have toys. Kids can only come in here with the clothes on their back. (laughs) So another boundary. Do they try to bake the, break the boundaries? Yes. You have to enforce them. You have to follow through. And all of those, within each of those, so there's boundaries, I have to follow through. I can't be three kombuchas deep and be like, "Yeah, go ahead, go ahead, you can come in. I'm drunk tonight." No, they're, you ca- uh, that's, you're not doing your job. Hey, that's not how I'm painting my Sistine Chapel, Chris. Right? I'm doing my Sistine Chapel, uh, when I'm mixing my paints, I don't get lazy. I'm not painting when I'm drunk. Um, you, you know, the days of popping an OxyContin and drinking two beers and watching a movie with my wife, those, I don't do that. You know? That, that's 33. That's not 48 with three kids. So go ahead.

Chris Williamson 32:44 Do you find it, do you find it easier to be disciplined with your children than with yourself?

Sevan Matossian 32:56 You're asking me at a really, really weird time, because I'm so hyper-disciplined with myself right now. I am so disciplined with myself right now. And by that, I mean, I, uh, I, I'm not drinking, I haven't had any refined... Because of COVID, I, I believe that you're completely inoculated from COVID if you don't eat any refined carbohydrates or sugars. And so like, I've made myself bomb-proof, you know what I mean? I, I have not... The, the only carbohydrates I have are leafy greens, um, and, and meat. That's all I eat. And, um, so, you know what I mean? I'm on, I'm in ketosis. (laughs)

Chris Williamson 33:29 So it seems to me-

Sevan Matossian 33:30 Lockdown. (laughs)

Chris Williamson 33:30 ... it seems to me that what, what you're talking about here doesn't just require discipline, it's discipline being taught to your children, but the starting point, the inertia that you need to get over in the first place is yourself as a parent. That if you are undisciplined as-

Sevan Matossian 33:44 Uh, explain that to me.

Chris Williamson 33:45 ... if you are undisciplined as a parent, there is no hard boundary for the child's discipline to come up against. You mentioned there-

Sevan Matossian 33:54 Uh-

Chris Williamson 33:55 ... you, you, you can create boundaries, but inevitably, those boundaries are going to be subject to your own desire to be disciplined. So for instance, one night, parent X is feeling a little bit down and really wants the comfort of cuddles off her, his or her child, so lets them come into the living room with their toys and their blanket because of this thing. That requires discipline first. The foundation of the discipline is, is built upon the parent, and then broadcast to the child.

Sevan Matossian 34:27 Yeah. You, you know why I'm having trouble? I think what you're saying is true and why I'm having trouble understanding it, and to give another ex- explanation is, I don't have to worry about giving my kid Oreos, 'cause I would never allow Oreos in my house in the first place. And that, that's actually not true. I've had guests who bring their kids over to my house, and their guests don't like the shitty desserts my wife makes without sugar in them, so they bring their own desserts (laughs) and they, their kids eat Oreos in front of my kids. (laughs) Now listen, that doesn't mean you're not flexible. I have an absolutely no TV time or screen time when the sun is out. And TV is only for Friday nights and Saturday nights. And yet-

Chris Williamson 35:08 For the kids or for yourself?

Sevan Matossian 35:10 For the kids. But, and, it... Yeah, for the kids. And I don't watch T- I only watch UFC, um, on Saturday nights. But, um, but, but I, but I have, but, but you do have to be flexible. And what do I mean by that? There, there, there's, um, a handful of times I've had a kid who's really, really sick, you know, just like a fever and just shitty, and I've let him watch TV. Um, when I take my kids to jujitsu, and it's a two, it's a two-hour window, the kids' class goes first and then the older kids' class goes. In that two-hour window, I'll let the kids who are waiting watch a little bit of iPad. Not the whole hour. I'll tell them, "Hey, watch your brother, um, compete for a little while, or wrestle, or practice for a while, and then halfway through, you can watch the iPad." So I'm, I don't wanna sound like there's not a place for it. There are things that there aren't a place for. Chewing gum. You should never give your kid chewing gum.

Chris Williamson 36:06 Why?

Sevan Matossian 36:07 You're being a bad, you're being a bad parent. There's no point to it. You're only hurting your kid. Why are you giving a six-year-old chewing gum? What?

Chris Williamson 36:16 Is that very common?

Sevan Matossian 36:18 Oh. Buddy. Oh, buddy. Buddy, buddy, buddy. So common. I see kids chewing gum all the time. I see kids at jujitsu and the instructor has to tell them, "Spit the gum out." Now here, I'm gonna tell you why parents give their kids chewing gum. This is not pro- uh, this would have never resonated with me before I had kids, but there's something called the hostage situation. Parents are always, 100% of their waking hours, and even in their sleeping hours probably, preparing for the hostage situation and waiting for impact. And what that means is you ask me, "Chris, can I have some gum, Haydig?" Haydig means Dad in Armenian. And I say, "Huh?" And I wanna say no, I know it's the right answer...... but I'm in line at Starbucks and I'm next, and if I say no, you might have a temper tantrum and I might not get my coffee because I have to carry you outside. And then I say, "Yes, you can have a piece of gum." It's where all the bad decisions are made, in the hostage situation. And it's crazy. There's hostage situations everywhere. Every time your kid opens his mouth, you're in a hostage situation. And they- they're constantly asking for stuff. But you have to follow through and you have to have these boundaries. If you don't, every time you give in, you will be doing two things. You'll be shitting on your Sistine Chapel, meaning hurting your kid, and you'll be weakening your position for the next time, but you'll also be making your kid feel unsafe. It- there's no win. There's no win.

Chris Williamson 37:50 That was the sixth, uh, principle, right? You had your five and then kind of was the- the hostage... D- Don't let yourself be held hostage was number six. Is that correct?

Sevan Matossian 37:59 Yeah, I guess I am flopping around. What did you say?

Chris Williamson 38:01 No, that's-

Sevan Matossian 38:01 You're not gonna come on my podcast and flop around? (laughs)

Chris Williamson 38:04 (laughs) That's what I'm here for. I'm here to flip-flop around. Um, number one, what was number one?

Sevan Matossian 38:11 Um, their struc- y- kids need structure.

Chris Williamson 38:14 Yup. Daily routine.

Sevan Matossian 38:17 Yes. And e- even I app- I do structure even through their clothing. So, I just, I make life so easy for my kids. My kids wear the same thing every single day, basically. They have a s- they have these p- these pants that they wear, and they have a, a, what we call a wife beater in the United States, it's like a, a, just a white tank top. And... I know, could use a better name, right? And then, and then sweaters. They have a long-sleeve sweater and a short-sleeve sweater. And they can, depending on how cold or hot it is, they can layer up or layer down. And then the shoes are always in their car, because there's no need for shoes at home. Why would you have shoes at home?

Chris Williamson 38:52 You gotta walk to the car.

Sevan Matossian 38:53 At home, you're barefoot. Yeah, you just go barefoot. (laughs) And, uh-

Chris Williamson 38:57 That's the advantage. That is coming from a man who lives in very temperate climate.

Sevan Matossian 39:01 True, true. Um, then the second thing after structure is discipline. And not discipline in the fact that they need discipline, like... Uh, I guess it's a cousin of structure. Not discipline like, hey, they need spankings. But they just need to have things that are organized. They need to understand that, okay, every Monday, Wednesday, Friday, I'm going to do this at 3:00, no question asked. I know it sounds like structure, but it's also discipline, because they're kids and they're not gonna wanna do it. So they have to, they have to start building habits of discipline. Uh, love and attention. That one, I don't... Man. So, I had really loving parents. And my parents couldn't keep their hands off me, and my uncles and aunts couldn't keep their hands off me. I was always on someone's shoulder. Someone always had their hand up the back of my shirt. Someone was always pinching my cheeks. Someone was always holding me upside down. I mean, I, I, I don't know how, um... I don't, I don't know, I don't know. That one's so innate in me, I don't know how you would teach that. I don't know how you would, you would work on that. Other than maybe to just love yourself more.

Chris Williamson 40:19 But you can see love and attention, attention requires time, and if you have someone who hasn't perhaps turned the corner that you and your wife have... And another thing to consider is that because you guys are further through your careers and have lived more life, perhaps some of the open loops, "Oh, I would've unfulfilled dream X, I would've this particular dream Y," um, those things are now closed. Also, by the sounds of things, chasing materialistic goals for you is quite low down the list of priorities, especially in comparison to your kids now. And with that being a fact as well, like, there's no reason to go to work. You know, you've got the, the classic CEO of a Fortune 500 company, you know, working and the, the, the matron or the au pair, or whoever they've got comes round and looks after the kids, and then he gives it a tap on the head at night and then goes to bed and wakes up three hours later and goes back to the office, or flies off to Japan to do a deal, whatever it might be. Like, that's a way that would very quickly get in the way of attention, right? You can't give love and attention if you're not there, if you're not present.

Sevan Matossian 41:27 Hmm. Right.

Chris Williamson 41:27 And presence is both physical presence and then mental presence. Let's say that you do decide to take the one week off with the family, but big dick exec CEO man, his thoughts, his brain's still in the office, he's still thinking about the emails he needs to reply to when he's supposed to be watching his kids jump in the pool.

Sevan Matossian 41:46 Right. You nailed it. At, at the most basic level, you have to be there physically. Hey, uh, you just brought up number six. I might, I might write a book after this podcast.

Chris Williamson 41:54 You should do.

Sevan Matossian 41:55 Numbers, number six, relationship. My relationship with my wife-

Chris Williamson 41:59 Did you just go from number three to number six?

Sevan Matossian 42:02 I did. Bear with me here.

Chris Williamson 42:02 You are, you're-

Sevan Matossian 42:03 Number six-

Chris Williamson 42:04 ... you're terrible.

Sevan Matossian 42:04 (laughs) Number six, the relationship. My relationship with my wife is vital because of f- on the most basic level, every child wants wo- every, I can say this about every single child, every child wants a mom and dad that love each other. They just want that. I wanted it, you wanted it, everyone wanted it. My parents divorced. It's okay, it's fine. But, but you don't get everything you want in life, but I wanted it. I... It doesn't mean my wife and I don't fight in front of our kids. We have definitely fought in front of our kids. And, um, they alwa-

Chris Williamson 42:40 Do you make a, do you make, do you make a point of trying not to do that?

Sevan Matossian 42:43 Uh, yeah, absolutely. I- Before we had kids, I wi- I was much more aggressive in getting the last word. Now, from the second they start fights, I'm trying to shut the fuck up. I'll take her in the back room and, and, and, and we can fucking fight it out there, but I try to just shut the fuck up. I do not wanna see my kids ever be rude to my wife. And they have.... but-

Chris Williamson 43:10 So you- w- sorry, you-

Sevan Matossian 43:11 ... I will-

Chris Williamson 43:11 Just to- just to- just to interject there, what you're suggesting is that your kids will mirror the way that you operate, and if they see you being rude to their mom, they may also enact that behavior. Is that the concern you have?

Sevan Matossian 43:25 Yeah. All of those things. And I never wanna see my kids lose. I don't li- want my kids to see me lose control. Losing control is the worst way to handle a situation 99% of the time, and so I don't want them to see me lose control. My wife and I need to fight. Not a lot, but we need to fight. We got some, you know, we just need to fight sometimes. And, um, and maybe someday we won't need to, but like, before we had kids, almost all of our reasons for fighting were gone. We almost never fought. Then we have kids, and now there's some more (laughs) reasons to fight again. But I don't want them to see me lose control, you're right, and I do s- you nailed it, I do see them mirror my behavior. I see them, when they f- when they fight with each other, which is very rare, they, um, physically they fight nonstop, but I mean like, uh, intellectually and emotionally, they don't fight. And when they do, they- they- it's- it's my wife and I. They take turns playing us. They don't- I don't think they know it, but yeah, totally, you nailed it. Um, but I always... I try not to fight in front of my kids, but I'm not perfect. But where I am perfect, in which everyone can be perfect, is I always make up with my wife in front of my kids. Even if I'm not fucking ready, I will fake that shit and make it, fake it till I make it. I d- want my kids to see that it's okay to be humble, and that happiness and peace are so much better than fighting, and that it's okay to apologize and get over the hump, and we can circle back around and finish the fight later or talk later. But I- I- and it makes them feel secure, and it gives them, you know, i- it offers a lot to the household, but I always wanna make up. 'Cause if I don't, then it's about me. But it's not about me. It's about them. It's about, like...

Chris Williamson 45:08 Have your kids made you a better husband?

Sevan Matossian 45:12 Yeah, for sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure, for sure, for sure, for sure, for sure.

Chris Williamson 45:17 How?

Sevan Matossian 45:17 100% better. Um, I am... I'm already a loyal person. I'm a very loyal person. Um, I can take a lot of abuse from, once I'm locked in with someone, I can take a lot of abuse and still be loyal, but I'm even more fiercely loyal to her. Maybe, you know, if I were, um, support her in her endeavors because she's painting her Sistine Chapel too, right? We're working on the same canvas. And so, I wanna give her, I'm, I don't wanna do anything to disturb her while she's painting, right? I don't wanna do any ripples that will cause her to be a lesser mom than she needs to be. And...

Chris Williamson 46:04 So I get that. I get that, and that makes sense. But that, to me, appears to have the f- the locus of love be the children rather than each other. Now I appreciate that you guys are still a team, but how many couples do we see that have kids and the stress of having the kids doesn't bind them together but it pushes them apart? And you have couples who've been together and then Johnny's two years old or Alice is one and a half years old, and the relationship breaks down. So I'm trying to, I'm trying to delve into the relationship between you and her, not in service of the kids.

Sevan Matossian 46:45 You know, so we... uh, that's a good question, and maybe I've lost sight of that. I need to think about that. But we were together for so long, so we met as college kids, right? And we partied in the same circle, and I courted her for five years, and I knew her boyfriend and she knew my girlfriend. And, um, then we got together, and then we were together for 15 years, and we traveled the world together for work, and then we worked together. And, you know what's interesting, Chris? I- I- I'd forgotten about this but I was, I was living in- in a pickup truck and I was sitting in the back of a pickup truck in Isla Vista, California. It's a beach town, college town. And I was laying there, just with my shorts on and shirt off, just waiting for it to warm up so I could go to the beach, and I was reading the Tao Te Ching. And I see her walking down the street towards me, and I'm like, "Oh, man, I'm gonna talk to this chick and, you know, see if she'll come to the beach with me." I mean, that's the kind of town it was, right? And I'd seen her around before. So I jump out of the back of my truck. She's like, "What are you reading? What are you reading?" And we start talking, and she's also into Lao Tzu and the Tao Te Ching. And from that moment, and we've talked extensively about it over the 20 years and we talk about it regularly, we knew that we were both personally responsible for our happiness. And when you're in a relationship with someone like that, eventually, at the end of the day, you can throw all of your fights and problems kind of into that light, and it will shed a ton of light on it, 'cause each person is, like, personally responsible. The blame game really goes away, and so I'd say like 95% of the problems go away. So, just qui- qui- quickly off the top of my head, I- I- I believe that's the foundation of our relationship, and I believe that's why we've, um, done so well. Um, of course, who knows what will happen maybe in 15 years or 20 years when the kids move out. (laughs) We'll get a divorce.

Chris Williamson 48:46 Well, that's a whole, that's a whole nother-

Sevan Matossian 48:48 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 48:48 ... boundary for people to get over, man. That really is.

Sevan Matossian 48:51 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 48:51 Like...

Sevan Matossian 48:51 Yeah, yeah, I hear, I hear you. I just can't even imagine that. My brain's, my brain, as you ask me that, my brain's just like, "There's no fucking way." Like, like, like, you, it- it's also this. Um, have you ever had a friend who you played a sport with, and like you guys are best friends and you do it seven days a week? You just, every single day, you're doing it, you're doing it. And then one of you drifts off and doesn't do that sport anymore, and so your friendship just takes its natural progression and it just, it just wanes. It's not, you're, they're still best friends, but now you only see them once a year instead of with them 12 hours a day.So, I don't know what the glue is, but something's kept us together, um, whether it be life, um, these kids. But, um, right now, we're closer than ever. I mean, we just, we just, we just work these kids.

Chris Williamson 49:42 That's awesome, man. Okay. So-

Sevan Matossian 49:44 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 49:44 ... we've got one, two, and three done?

Sevan Matossian 49:47 Stru- structure, discipline, follow through.

Chris Williamson 49:50 Follow through.

Sevan Matossian 49:51 And, and, and we sort of touched on the follow through, too, 'cause that's part of sort of number... Oh, man, maybe there's seven.

Chris Williamson 49:58 Yeah. (laughs)

Sevan Matossian 49:59 Um, follow, follow through is if you say something, you have to do it. And it, I, I, I screwed this up in the beginning a lot, because I would lay down disciplines that I wasn't really willing to follow through with. So, if your kid... If, if Friday is movie night, and Friday morning, your kid does something to piss you off, don't say, "Hey, if you do that one more time, I'm not gonna give you movie night." Because that's a long fucking 10 hours for your kid to work on you and change your mind. (laughs)

Chris Williamson 50:26 (laughs)

Sevan Matossian 50:26 Do you know what I mean? So, he throws something at the, at the breakfast table. You tell him not to. If he does it again, you're gonna take away movie night. He throws it again, and you take away movie night. Um, now you have 10 hours. And another thing my wife taught me. So, my wife taught me that. "Hey, make sure that you're able to follow through." Um, the other thing is, the follow through ideally and... should be connected to... The, the, the consequence should be ideally connected to the crime. So, you, not necessarily you take away movie night, but then you, maybe it's more like, "Okay, that's the second time you've thrown it. You're dismissed from the table. You can eat again at lunch." I don't know. And you would just make them stop eating breakfast or something like that. But you... Once you make threats, you better follow through. If you don't, there is no homeostasis. It's not like, "Okay, that's a wash." You're either getting, making better kids and being a better parent, or you're making worse kids and being a worse parent. There's no like, "Okay, we're just happily in the middle." It, it's never, ever, ever like that. And so, um, the f- the follow through is key, because if you don't, you're going the op- you're, you're going the opposite direction. You're making worse kids. And so, you have to be really careful what comes out of your mouth. And that includes, like, "Hey, I'm gonna... Tonight, when I come home from work, I'm gonna make LEGOs with you for 30 minutes." You gotta do it. You gotta do it. You want there to be... And, and then all of those other things will get bolstered too. You're showing structure, you're showing your discipline, you're showing your boundaries, all of that. If you can't do it, if your kid asks you, "Hey, will you make LEGOs with me tonight?" But you're afraid to say no 'cause you know he's gonna scream. And you, so you say yes anyway, and then don't do it, you're screwing up two of the, two of the, my premises. You've now been held in a hostage situation, and now you're not doing follow through. So-

Chris Williamson 52:16 How can, how can parents say no more productively?

Sevan Matossian 52:19 Don't, don't lie to your kid. Don't sugarcoat it. Don't, don't, don't, don't fool around. In the long run, all of that stuff will just bite you in the ass. If you can't, if you can't tell the truth, don't say anything. Take a few deep breaths. You know, let's say your kid's in the back seat and you're driving them home from class, and they say, "Mommy, can I stop at McDonald's?" And you know when you say no, they're gonna start screaming in the back and you don't wanna hear it. Fine, take a few deep breaths and then say no and brace yourself. You'd be surprised how often they don't scream once they respect you, that your no means no. I would say 95% of the times kids scream for more than 20 seconds, it's because they know that there's a crack in the dam. They know that you might give in. Once you're consistent with nos, and you give it to the kid straight every time, you, you'll see that go away. You'll really, really see that go away. I mean, literally, people are blown away the fact that I can just walk right by an ice cream shop while the kid's outside eating, and my kids won't... You know, at most, maybe one out of ten times, they'll say, "Can we have an ice cream?" I go, "No, we don't eat ice cream here. You know that." And that's it. That's it.

Chris Williamson 53:44 One of the things that was playing through my mind as you talked about your idea of-

Sevan Matossian 53:48 Oh, sorry, sorry, sorry. Sorry, to answer your question, it's never easy saying no. Okay, sorry. (laughs)

Chris Williamson 53:55 (laughs) I imagine, I imagine the, um, the pulling on the heartstrings, like especially... I'm, like, quite an emotional person naturally and quite empathetic. Uh, you know, I, I fear the, the size of love that I'm gonna have for whatever humans that I do bring into this world. Uh, and I imagine that it is quite hard to say no on a number of levels that you want your kid to be happy. You want your kid to love you. All of the self-esteem issues that you've got about wanting to be liked and wanting to be loved by your kid will also still be in there as well, because of how you were treated at school or how you were treated by your parents. And then you don't want to deal with the headache of them screaming, and you don't want the public outcry when people look at you as that parent with that screaming child and stuff. So, I imagine that saying no is, is a challenge, especially if you can't say no to yourself. If you're the person that says, "I'm gonna quit drinking" once every six months and never follows through with it, I put this in my newsletter not long ago, that having faith in your own word is one of the most important things that you can do. You need to treat yourself like somebody you are responsible for helping, to Jordan Peterson-ism. And if you don't have trust that what you say you're going to do, after a while, just like the friend that keeps on never showing up when you invite them for coffee, you're just not gonna invite them anymore, or maybe you're even gonna hate them. So, you very much need to treat yourself like a friend. And if you are going to bring kids into this world, you really need to sort your own shit first. If you don't have self-discipline, if you don't have structure, if you don't have a growth mindset, if you're not able to let things pass, like, all that you're going to do is further ingrain that into your children. And I think we very much need to see...... the, um, how do you say? The heritage, the, the genealogy of your habits, your routines being taken into your children. And this is what was making me think when you were talking about the set of scales, about you're either becoming a better parent or you're becoming a worse parent, and that goes along with better kids or worse kids. Um, there's a quote from Ethan Suplee, the guy from Remember the Titans and Wolf of Wall Street, huge, huge, like, massive 500-pound guy who's now 230 and jacked, like 8% body fat. He came on the show, he had a martial arts instructor who used the, the saying, "No bad reps." And what no bad reps means is that you're always drilling something. Every action that you do. And this relates to neurologically how we lay down myelin in- in sheets in our brain. You are always creating a habit. You, you don't have the choice of not creating a habit. It's a decision between one particular habit and another type of habit. There is no no habit. There is only this, that, or the other habit, and very much so with the kids. It, it, it, very, it harks to hard choices, easy life, easy choices, hard life. And there isn't a okay choice, okay life. There isn't, there isn't one of those. It's always going to be a decision between what's right and what necessarily isn't.

Sevan Matossian 57:00 Perfect. Perfectly said. Going back to that very first thought about you're gonna want, it's gonna be hard to say no, because you want them to love you, and that is the, that is the p- at the end of the day, the equation that will get you the most love (laughs) is to have really, really strong boundaries with your kids. Really, really strong boundaries. What, because-

Chris Williamson 57:27 See, that seems count- counterintuitive.

Sevan Matossian 57:29 Boundaries... I'll tell you why. The cl- the, the more boundaries there are, the safer they'll f- they will feel. The safer they feel, the closer they'll come to you. And so I, I, I wanna like... So, so, so, and, and boundaries are very, boundaries are very simple. Um, so, so let, let me, let me show you the balance. I have this room behind me that I tell you kids are not allowed in with toys. I have another room that's just their room, and it's a free-for-all. The toys in the world. So there's balance there. But once you start setting boundaries with your kid and they start respecting you, they... Which should be just right away, and your only metric will be to compare them to other kids, unfortunately. You'll see that your kids are so much w- better behaved. They're so much more willing to listen to you. They're so much more willing to talk to you and be open to you. They're just going to feel safe. If you just say yes to everything, th- (pauses) (clicks tongue) they're just... You're, you're gonna have spin-outs. You're not ob-... But, but it's gonna be worse than that. God, I haven't thought about this in a long time. I used to really think about this a lot when I was really getting comfortable, 'cause it is, it is something you have to get comfortable with to build boundaries with your kids. What will happen is if you don't build boundaries for your kids is you'll end up having kids that nobody likes. So let me give you an example. You're on your phone talking, you and I are talking, and, um, you have a kid, let's say, Chris, you have a son, and he keeps asking you questions about our conversation, and you keep answering him, telling him what we're talking about. Instead of, "Hey, Chris Junior, I'm on the phone. You need to go step away and give me space." That's what you have to say. "It's your time with your friend, Sevon. We're talking." If you don't do that, now you're teaching a kid, hey, it's o-... And, and I don't know if you have friends who have kids, but this is a big problem with kids. The pa- the kids are just allowed to interrupt. They have no boundaries. Their parents let them hold their cellphones, they let them talk to them when they're on the phone, they interject in conversations. If they wanna be a part of mine and your conversation and b- be adults, then they have to act like adults. "Hey, Chris is talking. Wait till he's done." Yeah, I mean, you know what I mean? And-

Chris Williamson 59:45 Well, I've heard you do this. We've been on the phone and I've heard you do this. You know, your kids have been-

Sevan Matossian 59:49 Yeah, okay.

Chris Williamson 59:49 ... at this... Uh, we continue to have conversations while you're at the skate park, and inevitably, skate park, children, floor.

Sevan Matossian 59:58 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 59:58 (laughs) Like it's, you know. You don't need to be a genius to work out what's gonna go on there. And you can hear in the background (claps) "Eh."

Sevan Matossian 1:00:05 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 1:00:06 (laughs) You know, like-

Sevan Matossian 1:00:08 Well-

Chris Williamson 1:00:08 ... I'm thinking on the phone.

Sevan Matossian 1:00:09 ... that-

Chris Williamson 1:00:10 I'm thinking on the phone, "Do you need to go?" Like, and I'm waiting to hear in your voice the, um, the anxiety, the anticipation. I'm waiting to hear the, the discomfort arise. And it doesn't. And I don't know whether you're walking over to him, or he's coming over to you, or whatever it might be, but what... A couple of times, you said, "Hey, sweetie, I'm on the phone, so you can come here and lick your wounds, but if you do, I need you to be quiet, okay?"

Sevan Matossian 1:00:37 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:00:37 That was it. And it took 15 seconds for whichever of the three children that was to be just sniffly, like I could barely hear him.

Sevan Matossian 1:00:50 That's just sloppy parenting on my part, um, taking (laughs) them to the skate park and scheduling a phone call with, uh, Chris, Chris Williamson.

Chris Williamson 1:00:57 Multitasking, multitasking.

Sevan Matossian 1:00:58 Okay. (laughs) Uh, it's funny, I, I, I hear parents say that all the time about how you should multitask. And, um, I have a few friends that when they call me, like, I'll always answer even if I'm, like, fucking, you know, neck-deep in shit. But, uh, yeah. It's, um, you, you... If you, if you have boundaries, your kids will love you more. The more you say no to them, the more they'll love you. I know that's a little gross exaggeration and not a perfect equation, but your kids have to feel safe around you. And, and they're, they are going to look back when they're older, and they're going to see all the things that you did to them that didn't help them. They're going to say, like, "I never let my parents live it down. Oh my God, you took me to McDonald's three days a week. I can't believe it. And I was seven years old and you let me order the 20-piece with seven hot mustards. What was wrong with you?" You know what I mean? (laughs) Like-Um, it doesn't mean your kids don't get free time, it doesn't mean that they don't get to rage. There just have to be certain boundaries, and they have to be logical boundaries. And, uh, and- and you'd be surpri- you'd be surprised, um, if- if you're a short-term gra- if you're a quick, short-term gratification guy, yeah, then saying no is gonna be hard. But I can tell by looking at your physique and your dedication to this podcast and your business that, like, you're not a short-term gratification guy. It's gonna come very, very naturally for you. I know that you put in...

Chris Williamson 1:02:20 I- I think, I hope that it, uh...

Sevan Matossian 1:02:21 ... you put the work in.

Chris Williamson 1:02:22 I hope that it will, but I also know, I see firsthand we're all our worst critics, right? So we all see our own sort of failings up close and personal. Uh, and on top of that-

Sevan Matossian 1:02:32 Right.

Chris Williamson 1:02:32 ... I also know that even as, what I would consider hopelessly undisciplined, I'm still wildly more disciplined than most of the people that I know, um, which-

Sevan Matossian 1:02:44 Right.

Chris Williamson 1:02:44 ... you know, it's that- that old saying where they say, "Think about how stupid the average person is and realize that half pe- half of the people are more stupid than that." Um, if you think about-

Sevan Matossian 1:02:52 Right.

Chris Williamson 1:02:52 ... how undisciplined the average person is-

Sevan Matossian 1:02:54 Wow, wow.

Chris Williamson 1:02:54 ... and then realize that 50% of people are less disciplined than that person, like, that's quite scary. Um, and again, it kinda goes back to what I was saying earlier on about the heritage that your children are going to get is very much a microcosm of what you are. We see this even in businesses, you know? You see, coming out of the CrossFit world, like, think about the internal company culture that you get with an owner like Greg Glassman and a games director like Dave Castro. You see that. You see that. Even if people perhaps didn't want that to be the way that they acted forward, we, my core industry of club promo, I could stand on a- on a street corner and look at the different PRs that are going, "Hey guys, where are you going tonight? Do you wanna come to our nightclub?" Uh, putting wristbands on people. I could stand on a street corner, and without seeing the badge that they have that tells us their- their company, I could identify by their mannerisms and by what they're wearing, that guy works for that company, that guy works for that company, that guy... Because they're just little projections of the guys that own it at the top. Everybody knows this.

Sevan Matossian 1:03:59 Right.

Chris Williamson 1:03:59 You know, and-

Sevan Matossian 1:04:00 Right.

Chris Williamson 1:04:01 ... this is the same in family life, as it is in business life, as it is in everything else.

Sevan Matossian 1:04:08 Right. Right. Um, you- you want people to like your kids. You want people to like your club. Set your- set- set- set the culture up in your business so that people like your business, and set your culture up at your home with your kids so people like your kids. People love kids with boundaries. Peop- and- and- and at the end of the day, the harsh reality of life at the end of the day is hard work and who you know, and who likes you. So, those of you who are in high school who are listening to this and you're like, "Oh, I can't wait to get out of high school when the popularity contest is over," I have really bad news for you.

Chris Williamson 1:04:47 (laughs)

Sevan Matossian 1:04:49 It's never over.

Chris Williamson 1:04:52 So, that's another Jordan Petersonism, uh, never let your kids do anything that makes you hate them. Uh, and that- that very much so is the case. I think, sadly, I think I was a very easily unlikable kid. I was an only child, wasn't massively socialized, uh, and it meant that I- I didn't really properly understand the boundaries of sort of social cohesion and- and how to really act and- and play with other kids, just time and attention, and I hadn't had a lot of time knowing how to do it. Um, and, yeah, I- I totally, totally get that as well, thinking about some friends who are just starting now as teacher trainers, year three, so seven and eight-year-olds, um, and in the class, the kids who are the nicest ones, that have the boundaries, that are the best behaved, they'll gravitate toward them because they'll want to spend time with them, because they're cute and they say, "Miss, miss, can I do this thing? You're- you smell nice," or, "You're this." And they'll want to laugh and have an interaction, and it very much is a winner takes all environment. You know, we talk about how, um, financial privilege permits people to be in a better position than others, but we never really talk about personality privilege, about the fact that being innately likable, which is drawn from being extroverted slightly r- rather than introverted, the kid who's over the far side doing weird things, I probably was, like, naturally doesn't get as much of your attention, firstly because they're out of sight and out of mind, and secondly because if you do go over and spend time with them, they're maybe a little bit... You- you just don't get what- what's going on with them so much. So, that really is a different form of privilege that I've never thought about until now, but personality privilege absolutely is a thing, and the more that you have these boundaries, the more that you can make your kids likable to other people, you know, if you understand how compounding works, if you can be likable by the age of six as opposed to by the age of 26, which is like around about when it took me to do it, um, you are gonna be so much further ahead, because the jujitsu teacher's gonna be fine letting you stay an extra 10 minutes 'cause he thinks that you're cool. Or the dance teacher doesn't mind about you turning up without your shoes when everyone else has to do this thing, because she knows that you're well-behaved and you wouldn't have left your shoes if you didn't really mean it to be that way, or whatever it might be. So yeah, I'm- I'm massively on board with regards to the- the make your kids likable.

Sevan Matossian 1:07:10 Yeah. Uh, at- at four years old, if your kid can say thank you and please, they're leaps and bounds ahead of the other kids, and they will reap the rewards for that in life. They'll reap the rewards for it right away. The kid who says thank you to their teacher when they hand out snacks will get the snack first the next day. All of that being said, some of the greatest people we know had the most abusive, jacked-up upbringings ever, and that kind of circles me back around to struggle causes adaptation, and so since my kids don't have any of bad shit happen in their life, I have to create it for them.

Chris Williamson 1:07:46 Yes. Absolutely.

Sevan Matossian 1:07:47 You know? I have to pour bu- I have to pour a cold bucket of water on them at 3:00 in the morning just to remind... No, no, I'm joking. (laughs)

Chris Williamson 1:07:53 Like David Goggins.

Sevan Matossian 1:07:54 But- but I do have to... (laughs) I do have to, uh, I- we do have to create that struggle for them. A- a- a- a close friend of mine, um, or who was a close friend of mine, I haven't talked to him in a long time, but Russell Berger, he gave a lo- he gave, like, a 30-minute speech on the importance of putting your kids through struggle. And it was fascinating. I wonder if I can, I wonder if it was recorded. But, i- he nailed it, and that was before I had kids. Maybe that had a huge impact on me.

Chris Williamson 1:08:23 I totally get what you mean there as well, that the amount of comfort, um, that your children have... Let's say that you do make your kids quite likable and, uh, an all right amount of extroverted, the amount that they need to get them over the social sort of line, which everybody has to play the social game. We are a social species, as much as some of us may not want to be. Um, and let's say that you do do all of those things. (clears throat) Without the struggle, I think that your kids would be regressing to the mean. And what I mean by that is, that the more ordinary your life, the more ordinary your communications are with everybody else, then the more ordinary your outcomes are going to be. If you want extreme outcomes, you also need to have extreme inputs. And if you have this very normal level of social cohesion and communication, and even if it's extraordinary or, i- in terms of its effectiveness, it's still the, what you're aiming for with a lot of social... Like, they're not gonna read Stephen Covey or, like, The Art of Persuasion at this stage. It's about just simply being able to be personable. Um, you do need something that's going to set them apart, um, or else what you're doing is making someone who is really, really, really good at being normal.

Sevan Matossian 1:09:41 (laughs) That was great.

Chris Williamson 1:09:48 So what's next? Number five.

Sevan Matossian 1:09:48 You know who you kind of-

Chris Williamson 1:09:49 What?

Sevan Matossian 1:09:50 You know who, you know, wait, you know who you kind of look like a little bit?

Chris Williamson 1:09:52 Who?

Sevan Matossian 1:09:52 Do you know, do you know the show Ray Donovan?

Chris Williamson 1:09:54 No.

Sevan Matossian 1:09:56 Uh, do you know who Lee Schreiber is?

Chris Williamson 1:09:58 No.

Sevan Matossian 1:09:59 No? Oh, man, you gotta look him up. He's amazing. You look like him. It's a, it's- it's- it's a compliment. Yeah. Check out that show.

Chris Williamson 1:10:05 Are you hitting on me?

Sevan Matossian 1:10:06 Ray Donovan. You don't have... No, not yet.

Chris Williamson 1:10:08 Okay.

Sevan Matossian 1:10:09 Not till after the sh- that we hang out.

Chris Williamson 1:10:10 Okay, cool. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Sevan Matossian 1:10:11 Um, no, that would be dis- that would be disrespectful to my wife, that I would have hit on you in the past, but now that I have kids...

Chris Williamson 1:10:17 Fine. That's fine.

Sevan Matossian 1:10:19 Um, I w- uh, there was something you s- there was something you said. Now it slips me. Okay, so, so love and attention, boundaries, um, we talked about the hostage situa- we did, we did them all. Structure, discipline, follow through. I don't know if I did any of them good.

Chris Williamson 1:10:37 You did.

Sevan Matossian 1:10:37 But structure, discipline, follow through, love and attention, boundaries. And then love and attention, that- that's really a time also for you to work on yourself, because, because loving someone is, a lot of it is just really staying still and creating space for them. Um, boundaries, um, the e- the, the ho- hostage situation-

Chris Williamson 1:10:57 And then relationships.

Sevan Matossian 1:10:58 ... and then I guess number seven. Relationships, yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:11:01 Yeah. What's the-

Sevan Matossian 1:11:01 I f-

Chris Williamson 1:11:03 What's the number one mistake or the most common mistake that you see parents making?

Sevan Matossian 1:11:11 Putting bad shit into their kids.

Chris Williamson 1:11:14 Nutrition.

Sevan Matossian 1:11:14 Bad food. Yep, nutrition. I can t- I can tell right away, like... Um, so my kids are wild, but their wildness is focused. It's focused. They're throwing a fucking tennis ball at the wall over and over and over, right? They grab each other by the head and throw each other down. They swing from the tree. When I put a tiniest bit of sugar into them, that wildness is almost like they start talking to themselves. They start doing, like, tapping. They get jittery. They start, like, um, instead of singing songs, they, they, they babble. Even the slightest bit of sugar starts to interfere with the, um, expression of the wildness. It makes it, um, yeah, it makes it jittery. It doesn't make it clean. It doesn't make it poignant. I know it almost sounds like it's an oxymoron to be controlled wildness, but it's a controlled wildness. It looks like chaos, but man, like, he's meaning to throw that ball 100 times at my wall until he tries to put a hole in it. Whereas if he wasn't doing that, he might also be screaming or throwing it up in the air. And you see that in classes. The most common thing is, is, you know, in group settings. So the, the kids who, who have poor diet will usually have poor focus. I mean, it's- it's, um, it's- it's- it's pretty obvious. I think it's pretty obvious.

Chris Williamson 1:12:36 How do you-

Sevan Matossian 1:12:37 It's the nutrition, yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:12:37 What are the rules? What are the rules that you feed your kids on?

Sevan Matossian 1:12:40 So, so, th- so these are the things. You want to try absolutely no sugar at all times. If they do have to eat sugar, you feed them stuff like a banana. That's the sugar you give them. You give them natural sugars. Your kids should be eating eggs, avocados, chicken, celery, carrots, cucumbers, spinach. Um, my wife gives our kids oatmeal. Um, we get, we give our kids peanut butter. I'm sure-

Chris Williamson 1:13:03 What about treats?

Sevan Matossian 1:13:03 ... someone probably doesn't like that. No, no treats.

Chris Williamson 1:13:06 But they must have something as treats.

Sevan Matossian 1:13:08 Like a, like a treat- Okay, okay. So, a t- yeah, yeah, yeah. So, sorry. So a treat would be a banana. A treat would be, um... So here's one of the great advantages to having three kids. If I do give them something like a bar, like a LARABAR, or an RXBAR, I- we- I- I give them RXBARs. I can, and- and there's- it's all just natural stuff in there, right? It's like date smashed with nuts. I can cut it into three pieces. So if it's a 200-calorie bar, you know, let's say, and I don't know how many grams of sugar, let's just say nine, um, then when I cut it into three pieces, now I have a, a, a, a 60, 70, 66-calorie bar, right? With only three grams of sugar. And sometimes, you know, when I'm smart, I always give the bigger piece to Avi because he's the older boy. So, but I don't do treats like...So Avi did j- g- got after two years of jujitsu three days a week, he got his gray belt. I bought him ice cream. I bought all the boys ice cream. They got a treat. Um, he skateboarded 100 days in a row. And I didn't even tell him I was gonna do this, but on the, I was marking the days unbeknownst to him. And then on the 100th day, I took them to The Point and I said, "Today's your 100th day of skating." He goes, "Oh, awesome. I didn't know that." And I go, "Yeah, and you get ice cream." So I do do treats like that. I do do surprises. I wanna reward him on the highest level for achievements that are, like, that I believe are grandiose, that I deem grandiose, right? Um, but in the end, I'm not doing it because I'm weak. I'm not doing it because I think, um, I'm soft or he'll love me more. I'm doing it because I think it'll make him better. I think it makes him a better person knowing that there's a reward and that he's being recognized for his good deeds, you know? It's not, "Oh, I'm just gonna get my kid ice cream because he was good today." Nah. Like, I knew in advance. It's-

Chris Williamson 1:14:55 W-

Sevan Matossian 1:14:55 It's-

Chris Williamson 1:14:55 Go a-

Sevan Matossian 1:14:56 ... it's a plan. It's a pl- it's a plan. I wanna, I wanna make, I wanna make them the best... I think you and I joked about this a little bit. I wanna make them the best mates possible. I want girls to like them, and I want boys to like them, and I want, I want people to like them, and I want them to be able to live up to that, um, love that they receive from the world.

Chris Williamson 1:15:18 We've talked a lot about-

Sevan Matossian 1:15:18 I want them nerds. Go on, nerd, nerd.

Chris Williamson 1:15:21 We've talked a lot about, um, the sort of the physical side. You get your kids to train. They do sort of complex physical movements, jumping on bars and balance beams and bits and pieces like that. One thing that we haven't really touched on is more the intellectual, kind of, cognitive cerebral development. What have been some of the realizations that you've got from that?

Sevan Matossian 1:15:41 So they, so they do math and reading every single day from the age of three for anywhere between five and 20 minutes.

Chris Williamson 1:15:48 Are you homeschooled?

Sevan Matossian 1:15:49 Um, Avi's supposed to be... Uh, Avi's supposed to be in school right now. It's supposed to be a, it's a homeschool program. Um, even without following the curriculum, he's above and beyond just because from such a young age, at three, we've been doing this five to 20 minutes every single day. Um, I just played chess with him for the first time a couple days ago. I was inspired by something I saw on Instagram, another, a friend of mine who has three sons who was playing, um, chess with his kids. Um, I do sight words with them, I do spelling with them, and then he has to read for 20 minutes every day. Guess I could do those things with my son, but I'm 48 and I don't wanna get injured, and I'm, like, very, like, careful not to get injured because I push myself so hard all day with the kids. So, like, people are like, "Hey, why aren't you taking jujitsu?" It's because I don't mind sitting on the sideline and watching. And then people will be like, "Well, you'll get a better outcome if you do it." And maybe they're right. I don't know that. But I have heard that a lot, that philosophy that you should be doing the activities with your kids. "You should be doing soccer, you should be doing wrestling, you should be doing jujitsu." But I don't do that-

Chris Williamson 1:16:49 Is it not, is it not massively that you just don't want your kid to be able to beat you up? Like, there's gonna become a point-

Sevan Matossian 1:16:54 Oh, I-

Chris Williamson 1:16:54 ... where Avi's gonna be able to submit you-

Sevan Matossian 1:16:58 Dude, close. If I just put out a limb, he's, like, all over me. Like, if I just put