A PhD In Relationship Advice | Dr Taylor Burrowes

Dr Taylor Burrowes 0:00 People ask me all the time, I talk about finding your, or attracting your ideal partner, really. And that really stems from, from you and you developing your ideal self. People really want that sort of cheat sheet of like, what are the things that you look for to find th- that ideal partner? And first of all, it's not just one person, but there's probably a limited supply of ideal matches for you in the universe. Not everyone is an ideal partner. Not 50% of people are gonna be an ideal partner. So yes, it's gonna be a smaller percentage. And so you have to learn what to look for, and it's based on you developing yourself according to your personality, what fits best for you, the lifestyle that you choose to lead, your values, belief systems. Uh, a- and generally speaking, that fluctuates over your lifespan. But usually, y- you know, in your 30s, maybe late 20s, you will sort of solidify a lot of that. If we actually did more work in the self-development, um, part, uh, then we would probably do a b- a much better job of, of attracting the right type of people to us. (air rushing)

Chris Williamson 1:11 I am joined by Dr. Taylor Burrows today. Ms. Burrows, welcome to the show.

Dr Taylor Burrowes 1:17 Thank you. Thank you for having me. I'm excited.

Chris Williamson 1:19 I'm very excited to have you on as well. Am I right in thinking that you've got essentially a PhD in relationships?

Dr Taylor Burrowes 1:25 (laughs) Yeah, you could say that. It's, um, a PhD in marriage, couples, and family therapy. So that almost covers them all. (laughs)

Chris Williamson 1:33 That's a ... You're a doctor of relationships. (laughs)

Dr Taylor Burrowes 1:36 Yeah. And you know, I, I like to include the relationship with oneself as well, so that's included in there too.

Chris Williamson 1:42 Fantastic.

Dr Taylor Burrowes 1:43 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 1:43 How is your relationship with yourself today?

Dr Taylor Burrowes 1:46 It's going very well.

Chris Williamson 1:47 (laughs)

Dr Taylor Burrowes 1:47 Yesterday, I, uh, I w- I did a really good workout. I'm staying at this beautiful condo and I just had a lovely afternoon, and then I topped it up with like a full home-cooked meal, and then did like a- an evening stroll on South Beach, which I bumped into a lot of characters and it was lots of fun, so I'm doing well. (laughs)

Chris Williamson 2:05 D- did you take yourself out for a date?

Dr Taylor Burrowes 2:07 (laughs) Yeah, basically.

Chris Williamson 2:08 That sounds like the ultimate date night, but just with yourself. That's actually my perfect evening.

Dr Taylor Burrowes 2:14 Yeah, I like ... I like to do that quite often actually, so that's the norm in my world. (laughs)

Chris Williamson 2:18 Amazing. Um, so we're just gonna riff on relationships today, I guess. We've had a lot of interesting characters on recently. We did a, a full series, a four-episode series on our advice on relationships, and I've recently had Caleb Jones on who's a non-monogamy advocate talking about his sort of views. Um, I guess to start off, what does 14 years of clinical mental health-

Dr Taylor Burrowes 2:44 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 2:44 ... and marriage and family counseling l- look like when you come out the other side of that? What, what are the sort of experiences that you have in that?

Dr Taylor Burrowes 2:53 Well, it evolved in stages, basically. You know, like when you're a green intern, they say, you know, you, you have a supervisor, you're kinda like half licensed, uh, so you're more of a student, and you're kind of just learning the ropes, doing a lot of observations, and probably scared shitless- (laughs)

Chris Williamson 3:12 (laughs)

Dr Taylor Burrowes 3:13 ... to actually be in control, you know, one day, when you're, y- you know, you're front and center basically and have to kinda cover the whole hour by yourself. So you go through this process of confidence-building, really, and empathy development. And so, uh, most programs, the best ones, will mandate that you have to go through your own psychotherapy and group therapy and stuff like that till you learn what it's like and you also process whatever maybe stuff you have from your own life experiences, 'cause notoriously, a lot of therapists have been through a lot of adverse events. And if they haven't sorted (laughs) through their own stuff, then it's dangerous 'cause then they can kinda project that onto clients. So-

Chris Williamson 3:57 Wow.

Dr Taylor Burrowes 3:57 ... definitely important to do that. Yeah. (laughs)

Chris Williamson 3:59 Yeah. I bet it is.

Dr Taylor Burrowes 4:02 Yeah. Can you imagine if you had a medical doctor that had a contagious disease and then operated on you? It's kinda like that. (laughs)

Chris Williamson 4:09 That's exactly what it's like. You're totally right. You said that-

Dr Taylor Burrowes 4:12 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 4:12 ... a lot of counselors tend to bring in their own problems. Is that a disproportionate amount? Are a lot of people potentially taking on this role or this job? Are they searching that-

Dr Taylor Burrowes 4:23 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 4:23 ... in an effort to kind of fix themselves?

Dr Taylor Burrowes 4:26 Yeah, I ... Well, I won't say that all therapists are damaged. What I'll say is (laughs) that it is quite common that when people experience trauma, they either go one or two directions, right? If they don't deal with it, they don't recover properly, then they can sort of, in effect, go through life as if they're damaged or handicapped emotionally, right? But it also has an opposite effect, so if you do th- recover properly, if you do access the internal and extorno- external resources in order to, you know, heal, you can actually become an even better person than you were before this thing happened to you, whether it was like a s- a si- singular event or whether it was just your parents sucked (laughs) or you grew up in a poor neighborhood and witnessed some bad things. I mean, it could be anything that you experienced. But the ... From the other side of it, interestingly enough, I've had so many clients, usually, like, the young teenagers that develop this desire to wanna be psychologists because of the experience we've had in therapy, and they're like, "Well, I wanna help people," or, "I wanna learn about what's going on with me more," so that's kinda what, uh, what you see a lot.

Chris Williamson 5:39 That's really interesting.

Dr Taylor Burrowes 5:40 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 5:40 Do you think that perhaps some of the people that suffer a little bit more, whether it be with personal or relationship issues, are they more susceptible to suffering because they've got higher empathy and then that empathy leads them towards potentially thinking, "I could help other people with that?" Is that one of the traits or is it something else?

Dr Taylor Burrowes 5:59 Well, s- sensitivity is, I guess, related to empathy, right? So people who are highly emotional in that- in that sense, um, would be sensitive to extremes and positive or negative emotions. And so, th- they can be susceptible, and if they don't learn how to guard themself from that, and they don't develop those coping mechanisms that are healthy and proactive to prevent those types of influences in their lives, then they can go through stages where they're, you know, emotionally stressed or distressed or- or even dysfunctional and disordered. And so, yeah, a lot of times people will gravitate to tho- to those types to sort of, you know, unleash whatever's on their mind or whatever's on their chest. And some of them m- just have a natural tendency of- of enjoying that process. And so they may then g- be attracted to this profession.

Chris Williamson 6:56 I understand. Yeah. So-

Dr Taylor Burrowes 6:57 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 6:58 ... moving on to the nitty-gritty of marriage and couples and family counseling and stuff like that-

Dr Taylor Burrowes 7:03 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 7:04 ... what were some of the trends that you saw? Potentially, why were people coming in, in terms of couples and- and marriages? Why were people coming in 14 years ago? And then you only left this year, right? You stopped- you stopped being a full-time therapist this year. Is that correct?

Dr Taylor Burrowes 7:18 It was last year.

Chris Williamson 7:19 Okay.

Dr Taylor Burrowes 7:20 So, uh, l- last year, May.

Chris Williamson 7:21 Yeah.

Dr Taylor Burrowes 7:22 And, um, yeah, it was- it was definitely ... I- I wouldn't say it was a big decision because it kinda happened gradually and just really naturally for me as I evolved as a therapist, uh, but also personally too, and I've talked about it a little bit as well. Um, but what I can sort of m- summarize it to say is that part of my process in being a marriage therapist was dealing with the pressure when I was single of how that looked or how that impacted my work, not having had that experience. And so part of me, not consciously, but it kinda pressured me to get married (laughs) and, um, I think that was- that was in 2012, I got married, and then I ended up, you know, leaving the marriage. So i- it was a difficult time because it's obviously something that ha- carries a lot of stigma, especially if you're a marriage therapist, and why are people gonna come to you and talk about th-

Chris Williamson 8:17 (laughs)

Dr Taylor Burrowes 8:18 ... (laughs) how- how to have, like, a happy, successful (laughs) marriage? You- you see? You- you understand what I'm saying now.

Chris Williamson 8:24 Absolutely.

Dr Taylor Burrowes 8:26 So ... But it c- comes from both angles. And so now I've had a lot of time since then, uh, to process what mistakes I made, uh, what was it that I needed to apply myself, and how did I come to understand the actual profession of marriage therapy? And so I- I applied what marriage therapy said the whole time, so it kinda aligned with all of this stuff that I've been learning and adding to my repertoire over the years. Uh, so getting back to your original question, the number one thing is that people are choosing the wrong partners, so that's why I've developed my approach about vetting in the coaching work that I do with clients, because you can't really fix something that's fundamentally flawed, and especially if it's only one person that maybe is motivated to make the changes, you can't do it. So it's- it's really frustrating, it's a waste of time, a waste of money, and it just brings up all this conflict in marital therapy, which is used as, like, a last case resort anyway, for the most part. So I've gotten away from all that, and now I'm looking at helping people at the dating stage find the right partner and then do things the right way.

Chris Williamson 9:42 So starting from a- a point where you've got a good foundation. I mean, it ... Is anyone that's listening surprised to hear that if you have someone you're incompatible with, your relationship's probably not gonna go well? I don't think so.

Dr Taylor Burrowes 9:56 I think people expect that if they feel strongly enough, if they love, if they lust, if they're, you know, excitable and- and- and whatnot, that they can make it work, there's some sort of magic wand that will erase all the problems.

Chris Williamson 10:09 But that's not the case?

Dr Taylor Burrowes 10:10 No (laughs) .

Chris Williamson 10:11 So-

Dr Taylor Burrowes 10:11 It doesn't quite work that way (laughs) .

Chris Williamson 10:13 ... fundamentally, you've mentioned, number one, one of the- th- the first thing that people need to get right when they're looking for a partner is that they need to find someone they're compatible with. What does that look like?

Dr Taylor Burrowes 10:24 Well, people ask me all the time, I talk about finding your- or attracting your ideal partner, really, and that really stems from- from you and you developing your ideal self. People really want that sort of cheat sheet of, like, what are the things that you look for to find th- that ideal partner? And first of all, it's not just one person, but there's probably a limited supply of ideal matches for you in the universe. Not everyone is an ideal partner. Not 50% of people are gonna be an ideal partner. So yes, it's gonna be a smaller percentage. So, uh, 'cause I know I- I- I ... people talk about the whole soulmate myth. So there's something in between one person for you and everyone's for you, right?

Chris Williamson 11:08 (laughs)

Dr Taylor Burrowes 11:08 There's gonna be, like, maybe 1,000 people out there, or maybe ahu- 10,000 people. Who knows?

Chris Williamson 11:13 Yeah.

Dr Taylor Burrowes 11:14 But it's definitely a limited supply. And so you have to learn what to look for, and it's based on you developing yourself according to your personality, what fits best for you, the lifestyle that you choose to lead, your values, belief systems, uh, and generally speaking, that fluctuates over your lifespan. But usually, you know, in your 30s, maybe late 20s, you'll sort of solidify a lot of that. And so the more work that you do, rather than spending that sort of decade of escapism and whatever you wanna call it, um, juvenile, immature exploration-

Chris Williamson 11:51 We've all been there.

Dr Taylor Burrowes 11:52 ... experimentation, yeah (laughs) .

Chris Williamson 11:53 Yeah, we've all been there.

Dr Taylor Burrowes 11:53 Like, if we actually did more work in the self-development, um, part, uh, then we would probably do a b- a much better job of- of attracting the right type of people to us.

Chris Williamson 12:05 Yeah. So I did a- a podcast with Daniel Sloss. He's a Scottish comedian. Have you heard of him?

Dr Taylor Burrowes 12:10 Hmm. No, I don't think so.

Chris Williamson 12:12 So he's got a Netflix special, uh, called Jigsaw, and his Twitter bio has the stats of how many breakups and divorces his Netflix special has caused. That it's-

Dr Taylor Burrowes 12:25 Oh, no.

Chris Williamson 12:26 ... it's, it's a, a, it's not a hatred of relationships. He calls it a love letter to single people. And he says-

Dr Taylor Burrowes 12:31 Ah.

Chris Williamson 12:32 ... that people get pushed into relationships because they don't feel whole without them, and says that there's the- this meta-narrative that runs across all of society saying that you on your own are essentially not a whole person and that you need to find this person that is going to make you whole. Like, look at any TV show. He says- he talks about pitching TV shows to networks and it's like a comedy or something normal. And they'll say, "We love it, but what's the love interest?" And he's like-

Dr Taylor Burrowes 12:59 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 12:59 ... "Why does there need to be a fucking love interest? It's not about love." But there's- it is so ubiquitous, right, this search for the partner that in every-

Dr Taylor Burrowes 13:09 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 13:09 ... even a show which is unrelated to love, there's gotta be, there's gotta be the love interest, right? 'Cause that's- that's one of the things-

Dr Taylor Burrowes 13:14 Right.

Chris Williamson 13:14 ... that keeps it going. And yeah, he, he, uh, agrees with you on what you say. You need to be able to love yourself before you can allow someone else to love you and before you can really let someone in properly. Because if you don't understand who you are, like how the fuck do you expect someone else to?

Dr Taylor Burrowes 13:31 (laughs) Exactly. No, I- I- I- I definitely agree with that approach (laughs) .

Chris Williamson 13:35 Yeah. Um, so you've mentioned finding someone that you think is compatible, that doesn't always mean, I'm gonna guess, that doesn't always mean finding someone that's the same as you, right? 'Cause sometimes, like, opposites can work together and stuff like that.

Dr Taylor Burrowes 13:49 Yeah, there's gonna be issues that you need commonalities and- and issues that you need polarities.

Chris Williamson 13:54 All right. That's cool.

Dr Taylor Burrowes 13:55 So you ki- you- you have to know what those things are. And I usually find that the lifestyle, um, elements are the ones that you need commonalities on. So if it's like you have a healthy diet, you're an active person, uh, maybe you- you like to spend some time just ha- developing a routine and being more, uh, productive versus finding any excuse to get out of the house and- and busy yourself with socializing or whatever. Although introverts and extroverts can be a very, very effective polarity.

Chris Williamson 14:27 Mm-hmm.

Dr Taylor Burrowes 14:28 Um, it depends. It depends on a lot of factors, usually the maturity of the person, uh, because we fluctuate through our lifespans depending on- on that characteristic. But yeah, I mean, like, the sexual polarity is obviously the most important one when you're talking about, like, chemistry and sexual attraction, desire, uh, that needs to be really pronounced so that you- you sort of magnetize towards each other. And no matter what conflict is happening in the relationship, that can always be, like... I mean, people call it the glue, but I like to call it the life vest (laughs) .

Chris Williamson 15:01 Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Glue- glue when you're talking about sexual polarity is a little bit more of a sort of disgusting image, isn't it? You don't want to be talking-

Dr Taylor Burrowes 15:09 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 15:09 No one wants to be talking about glue in that situation. It's too- it's too much.

Dr Taylor Burrowes 15:13 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 15:13 It's too much for an evening time.

Dr Taylor Burrowes 15:15 You're a visual person, I'm guessing.

Chris Williamson 15:16 Well, look, I- I can't help it when you're using the word glue.

Dr Taylor Burrowes 15:20 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 15:20 Um, so when you're talking about sexual polarity, um, a couple of people who are listening I know have read David Deida's The Way of the Superior Man, and in that he talks about masculine essence and feminine essence. Is that what we're talking about with sexual polarity or is it more nuanced than that?

Dr Taylor Burrowes 15:38 Well, we can expand on that, but I- I- I- it's important for... And- and obviously we're talking about, by default, heterosexual people, right?

Chris Williamson 15:46 Mm-hmm.

Dr Taylor Burrowes 15:46 Uh, I don't- I don't really talk about the s- the spectrum of- of sexual orientation. (laughs)

Chris Williamson 15:51 Every different iteration of- of sexual orientations.

Dr Taylor Burrowes 15:54 Exactly.

Chris Williamson 15:54 Yeah.

Dr Taylor Burrowes 15:55 Especially when we're talking about masculine and female energies or elements. Um, it- it applies to any orientation, but let's just stick to the stereotype so it's easy-

Chris Williamson 16:05 I- I agree, yeah.

Dr Taylor Burrowes 16:05 ... to discuss this.

Chris Williamson 16:06 Ju- just to interject there, one of the things that David says is he believes, and I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on this, that even in same-sex relationships or even in non-monogamous relationships, he i- is, um, pretty certain that the masculine energy and the feminine energy still manifests itself. Two women, two men, a man and a woman, or two men and two women, or however- however it works.

Dr Taylor Burrowes 16:29 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 16:29 There's every different version of stuff that's going on now.

Dr Taylor Burrowes 16:32 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 16:32 But he's still pretty certain that the- in terms of sexual attraction, you have a masculine essence-

Dr Taylor Burrowes 16:37 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 16:37 ... and a feminine essence, and sometimes they switch, but he's pretty certain that's the basis of sexual attraction. Is- is that true in your opinion?

Dr Taylor Burrowes 16:46 I agree, and- and it just gets a little bit more complicated to talk about it when it's... And then you use the word fluid, and then (laughs) it gets even more complicated.

Chris Williamson 16:54 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Dr Taylor Burrowes 16:55 But yes, with- with same sex, that is a lot more fluid. Although it's still fluid with heterosexuals because depending on the roles that you play and the different strengths and weaknesses that each partner holds, o- one... Like, the woman might actually lead in the domestic area. And so, you know, it might be a feminine household, obviously, like with... I- if she likes, you know, girly things, but she's in more control. So that's more of a masculine energy.

Chris Williamson 17:24 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Dr Taylor Burrowes 17:24 So there's lots of layers to it. It gets quite complex (laughs) . But in a simplified way, if you're talking about a- a- a heterosexual female bringing the feminine energy in, it's gonna be predominantly feminine, not only feminine. So each of us has both. And then the- the masculine having more- the man having more of the masculine energy. And so the more that a- a man is comfortable and confident, uh, bringing forward and living through that element of masculinity, and same w- in reverse with the female and her feminine, then that's going to be l- literally attractive to each other.

Chris Williamson 18:02 I understand. So we've got choosing someone that is compatible with you, and you mentioned lifestyle. I think that's... It's so overlooked, right, because it doesn't sound romantic. Like, to talk about the fact that I like to go to the gym and you like to go to the cinema-... is like the least romantic thing that people believe should impact on a relationship. But the bottom line is, it's a practical-

Dr Taylor Burrowes 18:23 Okay.

Chris Williamson 18:23 ... consideration. Like if I'm going to spend, uh, 15 hours a week in the gym, and you're gonna spend 15 hours a week cooking or with your friends or doing whatever it might be-

Dr Taylor Burrowes 18:34 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 18:34 ... those, would ... There's just less time to spend together. There's less stuff going on.

Dr Taylor Burrowes 18:38 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 18:38 So it's like a, it's like a practical consideration, right? The, the, the routines and the compatibility in terms of what you're into.

Dr Taylor Burrowes 18:46 Yeah. And you don't have to share interests th- uh, like all commonalities. You can have differences so that you have time alone and apart, which is healthy, but you don't want it to be predominantly separated, and so I think that's what you're talking about. And it reminds me of when I was, I think I was probably like 17 or something, I went on a trip to Switzerland with my boyfriend at the time, and we were together for like five years. And, uh, he's Swiss, or yeah, he's still Swiss. (laughs) But he's not someone that-

Chris Williamson 19:16 Still Swiss. He's recounted being Swiss after he split up with me.

Dr Taylor Burrowes 19:19 (laughs) But, um, he, I went and he was very, very active. And I'm active now, but at the time, I wasn't that active, and so we, we would leave the house for the day and he would go climb mountains and hang out with goats, and I would go to the most beautiful, picturesque tree and sit underneath the shade and write in my journal and take pictures.

Chris Williamson 19:40 (laughs)

Dr Taylor Burrowes 19:41 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 19:41 Well, it's just a ... I mean, in ... For some people maybe if they live with their alone time, that might work. But I ... It makes for a bit of a wasted holiday together, right? Apart from the fact that you're sharing the r- the cost of the hotel room. Like (laughs) you're not really making the most-

Dr Taylor Burrowes 19:54 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 19:54 ... of the trip.

Dr Taylor Burrowes 19:56 Right. I mean, it's, it's okay if you do that, like I said, in small a- amounts. But if you really don't have a way to create that compromise with each other and you don't have a, a general lifestyle that is shared, then it's gonna create a lot of problems, a lot of resentment, a lot of power struggling. But again, it's all kind of coming back to that complementarity between the two people. So if, when you complement each other, uh, you're not gonna be stuck in a power struggle because you're gonna basically have a, a, a default mode of decision-making and problem-solving where the man would take the lead if he's more the masculine and dominant role and the woman is more feminine. So when you have that, it's almost like whatever your differences are should be no big deal. Um, so there are sort of layers where you s- you start with the real fundamental one when you're vetting, like can you fit together at least on this basic premise-

Chris Williamson 20:55 Yep.

Dr Taylor Burrowes 20:55 ... well? And then you escalate up and add all the other layers to see if you work well together.

Chris Williamson 21:01 Cool. So we've got finding someone that's compatible in terms of our interests and the way that we're gonna spend time together. Then we're talking about sexual polarity, making sure that there's some sexual chemistry there. What's, what's next on the list? Where would you, where would you look at next to ensure that we have a healthy-

Dr Taylor Burrowes 21:17 Well-

Chris Williamson 21:17 ... relationship?

Dr Taylor Burrowes 21:18 The values are so important. Um, you know, you gotta know (laughs) the politics. You gotta know, um, various things about morality, if you're conservative, if you're traditional, if you're family-oriented or you're more like an individualist. Um, a, a lot of things too, like some people just want ... It's almost like you're ... It's kind of a blend between values and lifestyle, but your vision for the future. You have to have that shared vision for the future. So if you want to have a white picket fence with six kids, then you better both want that. And if you don't, then don't escalate the relationship. (laughs)

Chris Williamson 21:57 Mm-hmm. Yeah. If one of you wants-

Dr Taylor Burrowes 21:59 But that-

Chris Williamson 21:59 ... to go traveling around the world.

Dr Taylor Burrowes 22:01 Exactly.

Chris Williamson 22:02 Yeah.

Dr Taylor Burrowes 22:03 So you have to establish those things and any ... Unless you're, you know, hooking up on match.com or something, you're not gonna be filling out some inventory.

Chris Williamson 22:11 (laughs)

Dr Taylor Burrowes 22:11 You actually have to, you have to talk to the person over time and, and have discussions about various topics. And, and you don't really wanna give them the sense that you're interrogating them.

Chris Williamson 22:23 (laughs) Yeah.

Dr Taylor Burrowes 22:24 But, you know-

Chris Williamson 22:25 Right.

Dr Taylor Burrowes 22:25 ... there m- there may be certain bullet points that you're looking for, um, but you do it skillfully and in an appropriate way that you can at least enjoy the time. It doesn't feel like a job interview.

Chris Williamson 22:36 I get you.

Dr Taylor Burrowes 22:36 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 22:37 In- interestingly, something that's just come to mind there, I was listening to Jordan Peterson on Dr. Oz the other day, and, uh, first off, for anyone who hasn't listened to it, it will be linked in the show notes below, and it is an epic podcast. Jordan, I, I don't know whether it's the, the stress of him being on the road. I know his wife as well, Tammy, is, is really ill at the moment, but he breaks-

Dr Taylor Burrowes 23:00 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 23:00 ... down crying a couple of times on the episode. And I'm like, "Wow, I would have thought they might have cut this or done something else." But they fully leave it in, and he's, he's talking empathetically. He's caring about other people-

Dr Taylor Burrowes 23:10 Right.

Chris Williamson 23:10 ... and that's what's causing him to be emotional. But he definitely seems like his emotions have been raised. So if you're listening and you like JBP, go and give it a watch and let me know what you think. I'd love to hear your thoughts. It was, it was surprising to me and quite moving to me as well. And then Dr. Oz starts welling up as well, and I'm like, "Oh my God, what's going on here?"

Dr Taylor Burrowes 23:26 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 23:26 But one of the stats that they dropped on there, I totally didn't know this, I wonder if you do, apparently living together before marriage increases the likelihood of divorce. Have you seen this statistic?

Dr Taylor Burrowes 23:39 I've heard about it. I don't know how I feel about that. Um, I think it's ac-

Chris Williamson 23:42 Is that true in your experience?

Dr Taylor Burrowes 23:45 (sighs) Well, I haven't really had a lot of people that didn't cohabitate before they married-

Chris Williamson 23:52 Mm-hmm.

Dr Taylor Burrowes 23:52 ... so it's hard for me to compare. But when we talk about getting to know someone and compatibility and all those kinds of things, it's, it is really important to have novel experiences together, like if you wanna travel, you wanna endure some kind of stress so that you can see how do they handle those crises and, and how do you work together as a team? So if you're not gonna live together, then you better be manufacturing some opportunities to have that, that sort of context where you have to come together as a team and manage the situation.

Chris Williamson 24:23 That's a really good point.... it's- it's- so I couldn't believe it when I heard it. I was like, "No, of course, of course, you gotta live together." You got, like, it's par for the course, right? You get ... you move in together, then you get a dog, try the dog out. The dog's like a miniature version of a human.

Dr Taylor Burrowes 24:38 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 24:38 And then if the dog works, if the dog's okay, and you're like, "Right, well, we might try for, like, a proper one. We'll get, we'll get a kid." And then you get, maybe get another kid.

Dr Taylor Burrowes 24:44 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 24:44 Like, that's what ... That's the- the linear progression, right? Um, the progressive overload of a relationship. But, yeah, uh, the stats seem to be pretty robust, and the justification, I think, that Jordan and Dr. Roz had was the implication for the rest of the relationship is that, "I'm going to try you on before I commit." And it apparently, according to them, allowed a overarching narrative of disposability and the fact that it's gonna be, "I'm gonna see how you get on, and if this doesn't work, then I'm gonna go somewhere else."

Dr Taylor Burrowes 25:23 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 25:23 I- I- I, naturally, it doesn't ... that's not how it seems to me, but then I also haven't looked at the stats. So, it's an interesting one.

Dr Taylor Burrowes 25:32 I bet you it- it's measuring a lot of other things simultaneously that we're not getting at. And- and that's basically the- the whole premise of- of how I approach working with- with people in order to create healthy and successful relationships, is make sure that you're not, you know, with someone who's basically withholding stuff. It's like a conditional-

Chris Williamson 25:53 Mm.

Dr Taylor Burrowes 25:53 ... love or commitment. Uh, a lot of people in m- modern times, especially in, you know, North America and- and whatever, they're tr- really trying to look out for themselves, and they aren't committed. And if something goes wrong, they are willing to get a better model or version of- of, uh, a lifestyle that maybe will work better for them, rather than doing all the hard work before, and then once you actually escalate to the point where you're willing to commit to that person, that's it. Like, you're, you've done all of your homework. You've vetted, you've compared your options, you've established who you are and how you're going to manage any kind of critical sort of juncture that- that you would reach with that person, and you know you're gonna come through it on the other side. Whereas most people just sort of jump first and then figure it out.

Chris Williamson 26:43 Yeah. I wonder how many people that are listening can see in themselves in previous relationships that they've got into, that they've entered it with one foot already out of the door, just in case. And I know that ... And it's the same for me, right? Like, it's a, it's a protectionist strategy against being hurt. Like, opening yourself up and making yourself vulnerable is a ... it's a scary thing to do, and by having one foot out of the door, you've always got in the back of your mind, "Oh, well, I wasn't that bothered anyway." And yeah, well, if you continue to roll that model forward for long enough, it's always not going to work, and you're always going to say, "Oh, well, I just can't find the right person for me." And yeah, well, hang on a second, if you actually ended up committing, you might have had three relationships, five relationships, or one relationship which was perfect, but because you're there with one foot out the door, like, well, what chance are you giving it?

Dr Taylor Burrowes 27:35 And trust, I think, is one of those factors that, uh, gets sort of misused or- or- or ignored, neglected, and I find it's really important to develop that trust from the, from the start, very gradually and over time. People rush relationships a lot. And so, you know, if you start dating, whether it's ... I don't know, people refer to dating in- in, with different definitions, and I did a little poll the other day on what it was, but it seems like the majority of people agree that dating means one person exclusively, but there are about 30%, or the people that I polled, it was like 1,000 people, um, said 30% said it's multiple people, 60% said it's one person. So, we do need-

Chris Williamson 28:19 And that's the-

Dr Taylor Burrowes 28:19 ... to make sure we're using the same definition. (laughs)

Chris Williamson 28:21 That- that 60% are really angry at the 30%, and that's exactly where this no man's land ... So, we said it before, in the UK, I don't know if this is the same in the US, it's called seeing someone. So, seeing someone-

Dr Taylor Burrowes 28:33 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 28:33 ... is after casual sex, but before an official relationship, so it's whatever that, that bit in the middle is. And it-

Dr Taylor Burrowes 28:41 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 28:42 No one knows what the fuck that means. I don't know what it means. We spent-

Dr Taylor Burrowes 28:45 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 28:45 We spent four episodes trying to work out what the fuck it means, and we have no idea at all. It's just this no man's land of y- y- uh, you not com- why are you not committed? If you, if you're just having sex with that one person, but you, maybe you're not ready for a relationship, ugh. I- I th- to me, it's like it's hedging your bets in, in the worst-

Dr Taylor Burrowes 29:05 Yes.

Chris Williamson 29:05 ... way possible. Like you're j- but you're not-

Dr Taylor Burrowes 29:07 Exactly.

Chris Williamson 29:07 ... gaining. You've got all of the loss. You don't have the security of knowing that that person really cares about you. You don't have the ability to fully commit emotionally. You've got sex on top, but you could've had that anyway. And y- uh, I- I just think it's a dangerous, dangerous waters to swim in. If you're seeing someone and you're listening, beware, there's sharks in those waters, okay? So just watch out.

Dr Taylor Burrowes 29:29 And I encourage women when- when ... It doesn't mean that there's multiple people involved from the man's side, but maybe there's ambiguity. They're not sure what quite they're dealing with, but their values are to be exclusive, to be monogamous. I- I encourage women to stick to that. As long as you're- you're vetting, uh, the man and you're feeling like you still, you're still curious, you're still interested, you still want to- to more time with them, give trust, give exclusivity. Do not hedge your bets, because that is sabotaging the relationship. Uh, no matter how you look at it, it's always gonna sabotage the relationship.

Chris Williamson 30:08 Yeah.

Dr Taylor Burrowes 30:08 So-Men and women are a little bit different. I think they have a little bit more leeway, the men, to, uh, sort of hedge their bets, I guess. But I don't think that it's the best solution for long- you know, in the long term. I think that if you keep that to a very short period, just to make sure, um, the basic found- foundation exists between-

Chris Williamson 30:31 Mm-hmm.

Dr Taylor Burrowes 30:31 ... the two people, like, you make your choice, (laughs) and then you go into an exclusive sexual relationship with that person. Uh, but a lot of times people are holding back trust or holding back the attachment or emotion until they know for sure, as if there's some kind of destination that they're trying to arrive at.

Chris Williamson 30:48 Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like-

Dr Taylor Burrowes 30:49 You know? (laughs)

Chris Williamson 30:50 ... you must be, you must be this ri- this tall to ride the rollercoaster. You must have been together for this long for me to be exclusive with you. And the worst thing is that if you've had that basis, if you've created the relationship on the basis of you sleeping with other people, like, what if it comes out at some point? Like, what if you get rumbled that... And it's happened, like lots of the guys that I work with have had this situation where they've done something towards the beginning of a relationship, and six months, one year in, their girlfriends found out, and it's like, "Well, you didn't tell me." It's like, "Well, we weren't going out." That situation, "You didn't tell me, but we weren't going out," is never ever going to be reconciled, ever in the history of ever.

Dr Taylor Burrowes 31:32 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 31:32 Like, it's just always gonna get brought up. "Well, what else are you keeping from me?" One person's gonna say, "Well, I didn't need to tell you because it wasn't time. We weren't exclusive." And the other person's gonna say, "Well, I don't trust you." Fucked. Fully fucked. (laughs)

Dr Taylor Burrowes 31:45 Yeah, and I'm tr- I'm trying to hammer this, this point home a lot lately on my Twitter page, too.

Chris Williamson 31:49 Keep hammering away, Taylor. Come on.

Dr Taylor Burrowes 31:51 I think it's so important to, to stand by... Uh, it's really the easiest way to exist, you know? (laughs)

Chris Williamson 31:58 Mm-hmm.

Dr Taylor Burrowes 31:58 To not have anything to hide, to be direct, to be clear, to be straightforward from the beginning, uh, even when it comes to... Even though I p- I promote (laughs) exclusivity, um, even if we're talking about non-exclusivity, just be ethical about it. Be upfront. It's- You're still vetting your partner. It's the same process. It's just you're looking for someone who is comfortable and, and, and values non-exclusivity. And so the two of you can go about your business, doing whatever it is that works for you, and, and be open about it until you decide, "I, I want to be exclusive with you," if that's where they're going, which, which developmentally, uh, you know, you're talking about sort of pressure in, in Hollywood, in media, to have like this love story. I do believe that naturally the progression of i- in humans is to be together. I don't think it's about being a singular individual for your entire lifespan. But it's not... You're not incomplete as an individual. You are in process. And there's a- it comes a point in time where you kind of reach a plateau of who you are. You know, even though you can kind of have novel experiences, and kind of tweak this and tweak that, and always be striving to eat better and sleep, and do all the exercise (laughs) and all of that stuff, you do kind of end up plateauing. And it isn't until, you know, y- y- you, you find that and attract that really great partner that challenges you and draws like good and bad and, and complexity out of you, and then you develop a, a family and, and, and start to bring forward that, that legacy, that you really get to that different type of love, of service, and commitment, and loyalty, and, and all that.

Chris Williamson 33:41 That's a really good point. I can certainly see myself. So I'm 31, uh, and I'm single, and I can certainly see myself, um, what you're talking about there, that you can continue to, um, have your adventures in life and kind of keep yourself interested. I've just come back from America. I did a four-week road trip with one of my good mates in a five-liter soft top Camaro going across America. Like-

Dr Taylor Burrowes 34:06 Oh, wow. (laughs)

Chris Williamson 34:06 ... awesome, cool way to do it.

Dr Taylor Burrowes 34:07 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 34:08 But you're right. It is... That is a different flavor of all of the other adventures that I've had so far. It's still... I'm still on whatever level this level is, level one or level 10 or level 100.

Dr Taylor Burrowes 34:20 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 34:20 But to get to level 101, the challenge that you have from somebody else, how do we start a family? How do I negotiate a serious relationship with someone that's going to be something that goes on for a long time? I think that's a really, really good point. So I wanted to... I want to get on to trust. We've touched on it a little bit so far. In your experience, what is the, um, ability of people to come back from trust being broken in a relationship? How does that work?

Dr Taylor Burrowes 34:48 It, it's extremely difficult. I mean, it depends on the, on the injury. Uh, what... If it's infidelity, then... Gosh, I, I was having actually a little debate with, uh, Andrew Tate today on, on, uh, Twitter.

Chris Williamson 35:01 (laughs) Shout out Andrew.

Dr Taylor Burrowes 35:02 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 35:02 He'll be, he'll be listening.

Dr Taylor Burrowes 35:03 Which is always fun. But he was saying that... He actually said... Made a comment about, um, all the relationship experts out there, go, go cheat on your woman and see what she does. If she s- if she leaves you, she never loved you.

Chris Williamson 35:17 (laughs)

Dr Taylor Burrowes 35:17 If she stays, then she loves you. (laughs)

Chris Williamson 35:19 Oh my God. (laughs) Oh, wow. Andrew, you-

Dr Taylor Burrowes 35:22 Yeah, it w-

Chris Williamson 35:23 ... you do not give a fuck, my friend.

Dr Taylor Burrowes 35:26 Well, we had a really... You should read the thread. It's really good.

Chris Williamson 35:29 I'll link it, I'll link it in the show notes below. Yeah.

Dr Taylor Burrowes 35:31 Um, definitely. But we, we kind of came to a, a good sort of compromise, and, uh, we were talking about men being kings and how in the history of existence, all the kings had all the women they wanted and, and whatever.

Chris Williamson 35:44 Okay. Yeah.

Dr Taylor Burrowes 35:44 And I said, "Well, not, not all men are meant to be kings, and that's okay."

Chris Williamson 35:48 Yeah.

Dr Taylor Burrowes 35:48 And women, not all women want to be with kings.

Chris Williamson 35:51 Yeah.

Dr Taylor Burrowes 35:51 Right? Because we have our certain values. So if a woman has a lot of ego or pride or whatever, she may want that king of kings.

Chris Williamson 35:58 Mm-hmm.

Dr Taylor Burrowes 35:59 But what, what...I don't even ... I mean, I guess I'm a regular woman, but I think I'm pretty cool. (laughs) Um, like, what I'm looking for is- is a- is a man that I can develop my own sort of empire with. It's not an actual kingdom that's gonna be ruling people. I want my man to be my king, and that is what matters to me. I don't wanna be worried about infidelity and- and having to share things. Like, that's not my value. So, that's why I'm about exclusivity and monogamy and creating a family that has honor and integrity and trust and all of that. So, people have choice. It's not just... We're- we're not just ruled by our biology. We have, you know, morals. We have, uh, you know, all the sort of sociocultural implications that influence our behavior. So, to just say and- and rationalize all of this hedonism based on biology is just, you know... It's kind of an excuse. It really is. (laughs)

Chris Williamson 36:56 There's a lot, there's a lot of moving parts here, isn't there? So, the Caleb Jones episode, a lot of people that are listening will have heard that, and it was super interesting. If you haven't heard it, I implore you to go back and listen. It's- it's a challenging thing to listen to, to hear the argument for non-monogamy. It was- it was challenging for me, right? Like, to think, "Okay, so I love this person, but in some other version of the world, um, I'm gonna give this non-monogamy stuff a crack, and I'm gonna try. But I have to let someone that I love sleep with whoever she wants." And I'm like, it... Immediately, it just gives this juvenile visceral response, and I'm like, "I- I- I'm only trying to do this rhetorically," and I- I haven't got past the first fucking hurdle. So, how people do it in the real world is beyond me. Also, some of the listeners may be thinking, "I wonder what happened to Aubrey Marcus?" You mentioned him a couple of times on the Caleb Jones episode. Well, let me tell you. Unfortunately, Aubrey and his wife, Whitney, announced that they were transitioning their relationship on Instagram the other day. But in case you're interested, they did a full podcast about it, which shows everything that I mentioned on the Caleb Jones episode about why I thought that relationship was doomed.

Dr Taylor Burrowes 38:06 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 38:06 Um, and that's a, that's a call back to a couple of other points, but here's a point for you. Here's a piece of relationship advice that I'm sure that you can get on board with, Dr. Burrows. If you are breaking up with someone, do not do a podcast about it with them. That's-

Dr Taylor Burrowes 38:22 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 38:22 Fuck me. Everything, everything in Aubrey's life at the moment is, like, just used as content. It's so... It's- it's madness. But yeah, I think the thing about the king's thing, there's two types of kings, right? Or there's multiple types. There's a tyrant, and then there's the noble, virtuous king. Like, both of them have the title, but they're two very different people. And I think that you've identified there, you have one person who uses their power to get whatever they want, and you have one person who uses their power to raise everybody else up.

Dr Taylor Burrowes 38:50 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 38:50 And again, that... We're talking compatibility and stuff like that. You mentioned that infidelity in a relationship is a difficult point to come back from.

Dr Taylor Burrowes 39:00 Yeah. So, you might not know where you stand on that until it happens.

Chris Williamson 39:06 Mm.

Dr Taylor Burrowes 39:07 Right? And- and that can always be very difficult. So, you might have a person who just wants to put their head in the sand and- and not really deal with it, just deny it, pretend like they don't know, and go about their business. It's just easier for them to- to... That's basically their co- ... Their psychological coping skill is denial. Uh, and so that might be one way for they, for them to cope with it. And so they're okay sort of dealing with it. They don't ha- ... We don't have too much of an issue in- in counseling or- or coaching to heal the relationship on that issue. But I promise you, that's gonna bleed into other (laughs) areas of their relationship that need some work. So, I would want to look at- at other things as well. And if they're willing to, but not everybody is willing to fix the things that... The inconsistencies that sort of lay at the foundation that make other problems surface. Now, you also might have the woman that, like, freaks out and throws things and yells and talks to everyone about what a piece of crap you are and, you know, sort of punishes you. And- and then that woman may be just very angry, and she never really comes out of the angry, anger phase. And so working with her, I have to get her to- to look at taking responsibility. And not only responsibility, but some piece of it, in order for them to find common ground to both make changes to heal the relationship. And that's very, very hard for a person who feels that they were the one that was injured-

Chris Williamson 40:35 Mm.

Dr Taylor Burrowes 40:35 ... they were the one that's betrayed. "How am I supposed to say, 'I need to do this differently'? Because it wasn't my fault." (laughs) But if you do get through that anger stage, and that takes some time, then you look at, "Well, what led to this infidelity?" You know, "What- what was the wedge that, um, g- broke you guys apart that maybe caused it? Was... What was the sex life between the two of you like before? What was the communication like? What was the general intimacy?" So, you know, you have to peel back the layers. But then, I said this to you before in the beginning, if one person is willing to change and the other person is not, for whatever reason, whatever soapbox they're standing on, pointing a finger at the other person saying they're the one that needs to change-

Chris Williamson 41:20 Mm.

Dr Taylor Burrowes 41:20 ... it's not gonna work.

Chris Williamson 41:22 Do you find that there's people who are, I'm going to use Carol Dweck's, uh, words here, in a fixed mindset and a growth mindset? Do people tend to stay like that throughout relationships?

Dr Taylor Burrowes 41:34 Well, if we're com- comparing it to that type of scenario, yeah. It's very hard for someone who's in a fixed mindset to basically evolve. Um, I- I- I like to call it the power struggle, and so a lot of times you'll see that from whether... I mean, it can be the man too, but you do see it a lot with women who feel that they're entitled, and that the man should be, uh, doting on making them happy, and everything's offensive to that woman. And she feels like she should have just as much rights and control and wear the pants, and everything's equal. That is a very fixed mindset that does not really budge-

Chris Williamson 42:16 Mm.

Dr Taylor Burrowes 42:16 ... uh, until something major happens, some kind of rock-bottom-

Chris Williamson 42:19 Something snaps.

Dr Taylor Burrowes 42:20 ... yeah.

Chris Williamson 42:21 Yeah.

Dr Taylor Burrowes 42:21 But for, for men, I don't know what you think might be the most fixed element of, of a fixed mindset in a man, but, uh, I mean, uh, if we're talking about the, the compliment to that, a lot of times it's, it's the men who are more emotionalized and effeminized. Uh, they, they're so, um, indoctrinated into that mindset of, um, being the sort of male feminist and trying to rescue women-

Chris Williamson 42:48 Mm-hmm.

Dr Taylor Burrowes 42:48 ... and, and play that role. But there's lots of different fixed mindsets, so it's not just that-

Chris Williamson 42:53 Right.

Dr Taylor Burrowes 42:53 ... stereotype. But, um, it can happen. People can be, develop a growth mindset after some kind of catalyst.

Chris Williamson 43:00 Yeah. I, I, I wonder ... I'd love to be able to see where the fixed and growth mindset comes in a, a, uh, typically a broad cross-section of relationships, because I'm sure the listeners at home will be able to think the same. I can come up with just as many people that are absolutely stuck in the mud as men as are women. I think it's a, a, an affliction that plagues both genders, uh, equally, um, but it manifests-

Dr Taylor Burrowes 43:28 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 43:28 ... in different ways, right? You, I think you're right, like the, the girl that's got the fixed mindset perhaps might, um, yeah, they might have the, "I wanna click my fingers. I wanna be in control." The man might be the one that, "You should, you should be attracted to me or love me the way that, that, like, whatever I do, no matter how I behave." And, and t- tend to sort of push the boundaries a little bit more. So, yeah, you are right. There's a lot of nuances here. I mean, just going through what we've gone through so far today, 14 years of clinical mental health and family experience, I can only imagine what it's like getting home from work after that day. Like after hearing-

Dr Taylor Burrowes 44:07 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 44:07 ... whatever, you know, s- six, eight, 10 hours of this, this, animated by two people that ... I mean, do many people come to marriage counseling when they got stuff going right? I'm gonna guess not.

Dr Taylor Burrowes 44:19 No, but I did have some people that after things got resolved, they would come as kind of like a check-in preventative-

Chris Williamson 44:27 Oh, that's good.

Dr Taylor Burrowes 44:27 ... semiannual session, which I encourage. And now it sort of leads into m- my working with people at the very front end of things. But, um, yeah, I mean, I, I veered off that track for a reason because it was just so disease model oriented. And so now, um, you know, working online with people and not being in that setting is much better because my quality of life is a lot better, and it's definitely more, um, aligned with my values as well.

Chris Williamson 44:57 Are you slowly regaining some sanity after the last decade a bit?

Dr Taylor Burrowes 45:00 Mm-hmm. (laughs) Yeah. You know, I feel like I've, I've definitely grown a lot as a person and, and applying this into my personal life has been really conducive to s- to success and, and feeling like I'm in a healthy place and I'm, you know, I'm dating and I'm, I'm feeling like, very optimistic and that these things are very helpful for people to, to implement. And a lot of my clients are having results and they're seeing, you know, much, much better, uh, outcomes in their relationships. So it's great to hear that feedback now.

Chris Williamson 45:34 That's awesome. So we've touched on compatibility between people in terms of their routines. We've talked about sexual polarity and ensuring that you have some, some sort of polarity, some sort of energy which is drawing people together. We've spoken about values and virtues, like what's your life plan? Are you white picket fence? Are you adventures in Himalaya type thing?

Dr Taylor Burrowes 45:53 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 45:53 Uh, we've spoken about infidelity and trust and the issues with that as well. Are there any other, um, sort of key themes that you think that the listeners should be aware of?

Dr Taylor Burrowes 46:05 Well, if we, we, we have to kind of talk directly about sex for a minute. Um-

Chris Williamson 46:09 Let's talk, let's talk directly about sex for a minute.

Dr Taylor Burrowes 46:12 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 46:12 Dr. Broz, I'm here, I'm listening.

Dr Taylor Burrowes 46:14 It's- it's (laughs) , it's really important for women, especially. Men, I mean, we work together, but men kinda, you know, they're comfortable talking about sex, they're comfortable having lots of sex, but women feel somewhat restrained in their sexuality. And I've been trying to, to discuss this a lot, to separate the sort of negative, slutty, explicit sexuality from the very sensual, healthy, feminine sensuality. Whether you call it sexy or, or sensual doesn't really matter, but just sort of distinguishing the two between that sort of corrupt, objectified, um, version that's sort of blatant and inappropriate (laughs) . So women have been sort of inundated with this image. And even with men, they kind of do the same thing. They split their images of women into, you know, the virtuous, was it Madonna? And the, and the sort of slutty-

Chris Williamson 47:10 Madonna, yeah.

Dr Taylor Burrowes 47:11 Right, like the sort of having the, the slut and then the, the pure version of a woman. And basically, women have been doing that in a way that they, they choose one or the other. They're not really integrating both archetypes. I mean, there's more than just the two. But if we just look at those two, women are, are sort of rejecting the explicit sexual element and trying to be very demure or the opposite. And so trying to integrate those two is a very difficult process for women because there's so much stigma attached to it. And we talk about, um, promiscuity and sexual liberation, and nobody really knows what to do. And, and then women are judged if they've had too many sexual partners or if they're too seductive or their dress is, you know, too, you know, ex- like exposing of themselves. So learning for women how, how to be selective with their sexual partners, uh, and yet be very open and free with their sexual partners is a very hard process. And I, and I think it's important to address, uh, whether I work with women one-on-one or I work with couples for if you have that trust in a relationship, right, then you're gonna have a much better time exploring that, that, you know, that complexity, because you should feel that your, your woman is...... you know, honorable, and she's committed to you, and you don't have to worry about her doing anything inappropriate in a sexualized way with somebody else. But with you, she should be more open and adventurous and be able to be comfortable in her body and basically explicit. So (laughs) you ha- you have to really accommodate that growth and, and be growth, to have that growth mindset there, you know?

Chris Williamson 49:01 Isn't it strange that when we're talking about, uh, the female sexual archetypes, that being capable in bed is also lumbered with the same label of being promiscuous, or being a, a slut, or whatever the term is? Isn't that weird?

Dr Taylor Burrowes 49:21 Yeah. It, it, it's, it's, it's something that we don't really (sighs) feel comfortable talking about. And so it ... I mean, I'm not, I'm not like advocating for us to talk about sex with children. But (laughs) I think it is important for women to be able to talk about it with their partners, uh, if they're feeling shy, or if they're feeling uncomfortable or unsure about things and why, and for the man to be able to have that intimacy with her to make her feel comfortable, to make her feel, uh, that it's okay, and, you know, you have to be prepared because then you have to sorta still see her as a mother, if you have children-

Chris Williamson 50:01 (laughs)

Dr Taylor Burrowes 50:01 ... but then she's your hot, sexy lover behind closed doors or whatever.

Chris Williamson 50:05 There's a lot of roles, a lot of masks-

Dr Taylor Burrowes 50:06 So (laughs) yeah.

Chris Williamson 50:06 ... that, that women have got to play, haven't they? Like, the man kind of ... if we've got, again, typical masculine, feminine energies going from the ways that they mostly do, you've got the man ... and the man's kind of always doing that, right? Like, he's fixing the car, he's picking the kids up off the ground, he's going to work, and then he's coming home and he's having sex, whereas the mother needs to be a lot of, a lot of different roles, right? I, I think that's, that's maybe-

Dr Taylor Burrowes 50:32 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 50:32 ... one of the issues where you've got ... that they, they need to spin a lot of plates.

Dr Taylor Burrowes 50:36 And if they're not, and they're repressing that, that's what happens, too, in the demise of a relationship is she will do that. She'll sort of see her husband as the protector/provider, and then she'll start fantasizing about the sexy gardener or whatever, right?

Chris Williamson 50:53 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Dr Taylor Burrowes 50:54 So if you don't address these issues early on, starting from when you're dating, then they're gonna create these cracks in your relationship that are going to create like the sort of risk for all those types of outcomes, and being able to ... I ... it's almost like you have to have that rhythm and harmony and be in sync with your partner so that you can kinda be really hyper, like, sexual with them, but then also talk about day-to-day logistics and (laughs) the boring stuff.

Chris Williamson 51:23 (laughs) Yeah, "Look, we've run out of, we've run out of milk, and we've run out of bread, and it's your turn to clean the toilet," like, yeah.

Dr Taylor Burrowes 51:29 "And come over here, sexy. I need some of that."

Chris Williamson 51:32 Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Dr Taylor Burrowes 51:32 You know? Like you, you have to be able to-

Chris Williamson 51:34 Difficult dis- difficult discussion to have.

Dr Taylor Burrowes 51:35 (laughs) It, it shouldn't be, and, and, and it's, it's, it's fun. It's playful, and that's what keeps the spark alive. And so you don't want to drag on all of that sort of boring life stuff for too long without injecting a little bit of that pizazz and that sexiness in there. So y- you know, women, we need to feel encouraged to do that, um, and men have to learn how to sorta draw that out of us as well, because it's there. It's just a matter of feeling that comfort and, and that trust in order to, to do that.

Chris Williamson 52:11 How do you do that then as a, as a man encouraging a woman, or as a woman wanting to broach the subject of sex or sexual preferences or the way that their sex life's going? Uh, how, how do you do that? How do you get the courage to do that, and how do you start the discussion?

Dr Taylor Burrowes 52:28 Well, a man should feel, um, confident in his sexuality. I do feel that it's important for a man to have a little bit more ... h- he, you know, ne- neither party has to have a whole bunch of experience, but I do think that it's good for the man to be a little bit more sexually confident than the woman, so to keep that balance. And then for him to be able to project that throughout the relationship so that he's kind of ... it doesn't matter if he sorta comes outta nowhere with something sexualized. It ... and, and that maybe startles her a little bit, or she feels a little shy or something, but that's gonna create that sexual tension that, that's gonna really help there in that department. And so the man, uh, if he doesn't feel confident in that element with his sexuality, he needs to work on that. So that would mean that he needs to do that individual work first. Like, go to the gym. Get your fitness right. Get your health checked. Make sure your test- testosterone levels are, are healthy and you're eating well, you're sleeping well, and, you know, once you get all those things, it should, it should be revved up.

Chris Williamson 53:29 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Dr Taylor Burrowes 53:30 And if you ... you're also sort of encouraging your, your woman to be attractive and feminine and whatever it is, and hopefully you've already sort of established what you like, and she's that (laughs) and not something completely different.

Chris Williamson 53:45 It's doomed to fail if that way, yeah.

Dr Taylor Burrowes 53:46 (laughs) Exactly. So, you know, the best thing to do is not to criticize a woman directly. And I was actually gonna say this before. One of the differences between the fixed mindset between the genders is women do not handle criticism well in general. (laughs)

Chris Williamson 54:02 (laughs)

Dr Taylor Burrowes 54:02 Men can handle criticism a lot w- a lot better. I have like 80-something percent men clients, and not, not very many women because of that. Um, it's, it's really in- interesting to see. But, uh, you know, we need to get the women (laughs) to, to be a little bit more open to criticism and self-improvement for sure. But anyway, getting back to the sex stuff. So (laughs) , um, yeah, with men, as long as they're improving that, those elements and making sure that they have what they need in order to be virile (laughs) , then, um, they can encourage their woman always. Instead of, instead of criticizing her, encourage her positively. So re- reward and reinforce the positives. Like, if she wears something and you think she's really hot...... like, give her that attention. Attention is like that, that really powerful currency with women. So, be seductive with her, buy her flowers, take her out, say lovely things, whatever her love language is and her personality dictates. You want to, to reinforce those positives. And then on the flip side, if you do see negatives, instead of directly, uh, criticizing her, pull back, right? So you're pulling back on the attention instead of punishing. You're just taking away the rewards. And use external references to point out the negatives. So like, if you see a woman wearing something really ugly or her hair is short and unattractive or whatever it is, say, "Oh, gosh, I wish she had m- much longer hair. She would just be so sexy if she would do this." That's a way to externalize it from the woman. And the woman's like competing and saying, "Oh, well, I could do that. I better get a nice dress then." (laughs) Or wear heels instead.

Chris Williamson 55:44 Oh, okay, that's an- that's an interesting approach of using this conduit on the outside-

Dr Taylor Burrowes 55:49 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 55:49 ... to somehow come and do it. So we've spoken about what men can do. How about if y- you're a woman? You could be demure or you could be totally sexually liberated, but you need to broach the subject of sex with your partner. Where do you, where do you start?

Dr Taylor Burrowes 56:04 I think you just talk about it. Um, uh, one thing that came to mind though, that, when you asked that, I have a very split opinion on masturbation because I know this whole no fap thing is like a really popular controversial topic. (laughs)

Chris Williamson 56:20 Do not get me started-

Dr Taylor Burrowes 56:22 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 56:22 ... on no fap. Taylor, we will be here for the rest of the evening.

Dr Taylor Burrowes 56:27 (laughs) Well, this is my thing, okay?

Chris Williamson 56:30 Yeah.

Dr Taylor Burrowes 56:30 I, I, I, I'm not against masturbation, but definitely one of the things that I think is distinct... dis- is dis- is distinct between men and women is that masturbation can be extremely helpful for women who have repressed sexuality.

Chris Williamson 56:50 Why?

Dr Taylor Burrowes 56:52 Because you have to kind of scaffold her level of comfort when it comes to any type of sexualized material. Like even if it's just her, like it, it's almost like learning how to act on, on stage, like how to be a public speaker. Y- being exposed and that vulnerable in a sexual way can be so anxiety-provoking for women that she's got to desensitize herself in a good way, not in a bad way (laughs) , um, so she can get used to it. So learning how to masturbate or what does she like, or even, you know, getting a little bit, you know, freaky with herself, you know, (laughs) like that will help l- like get her used to the idea. And then, and then if she kind of gets into it a little bit more, uh, when she's actually in the act with her lover and then the lover reinforces it and he's like, "Oh, yeah," you know, he's sort of like encouraging that, then she can loosen up a little bit more during the act, let her guard down, climax easier, and then you talk about it afterwards and like, "Oh my gosh, that was really cool when you did that. I just thought-"

Chris Williamson 57:59 (laughs)

Dr Taylor Burrowes 57:59 "... it was so sexy." And, you know, just sort of gets your little e- you know, endorphins and your oxytocin is like all on fire and, yeah, anyway.

Chris Williamson 58:08 I understand.

Dr Taylor Burrowes 58:09 (sighs) Where's my... (laughs)

Chris Williamson 58:10 (laughs)

Dr Taylor Burrowes 58:12 Oh, there's go my bat- my battery's going low now.

Chris Williamson 58:14 You'll be fine. Oh, your battery on your phone you mean though, right? Um, so-

Dr Taylor Burrowes 58:18 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 58:20 (laughs)

Dr Taylor Burrowes 58:21 (laughs) Blushing now. No, battery on the phone.

Chris Williamson 58:24 Um, yeah.

Dr Taylor Burrowes 58:24 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 58:24 So I think that, I think that's interesting, like the fact that not... (sighs) Women are under-sexualized, I think is what you, on the whole, they're less sexualized than men, I think is the point that-

Dr Taylor Burrowes 58:34 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 58:35 ... you're making here, right? One thing that I think is super interesting that I'd be interested to hear what you think about is, you know, like Cosmo Magazine and, uh, all of these sort of middle-of-the-road girly magazines, like every single one of those that I see when I walk past WHSmith or some news agents, like the seven best summer sex positions and things like that, is that, is that female journalists and, uh, and magazine writers trying to sort of take control of this and help women to educate themselves? 'Cause that's been going on for like as long as I can remember seeing those magazines, like 20 years, 30 years more. And that, has that not really helped?

Dr Taylor Burrowes 59:15 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 59:15 Is that not the right rhetoric?

Dr Taylor Burrowes 59:17 No. A- a- and as soon as I s- answered your question, I was like, well, the caveat is there's this whole other sort of sexual libera- liberated (laughs) feminism thing that has taken e- effect. And so you have the hypersexual women that are super promiscuous and explicit, but then you know what? It's not a healthy sexuality either. And it's not real. It's actually like a, a, a fake, a façade of sexuality 'cause they're doing it in a disconnected way. They're playing a part that isn't even... it isn't even something that is, uh, representative of, of intimacy, right? It's just some sort of caricature of this explicitness. So right, a lot of that Cosmopolitan, and I t- I forget what, there was a headline yesterday or maybe it was this morning talking about, um, women, I don't know, women doing this or that sexual behavior and promoting it. And I, I think it's just... one, it's causing us to then become more promiscuous as women, and having more casual, casual sex is really going to infringe our ability to find a proper partner, uh, to attach properly to a romantic partner long term, and it also just, it desensitizes us to our own body and emotionally. Basically if you... a- I'm also like a sexual trauma recovery spel- specialist.And part of sexual trauma, uh, is this, what happens is this, uh, dis- disorientation and- and de- detachment between the body and your emotions. And then you sort of have this self-imposed, um, objectification, right?

Chris Williamson 1:01:05 Like puni- like punishing yourself?

Dr Taylor Burrowes 1:01:06 And then... Exactly. And so I call it self-exploitation. But basically, it's literally just you- you're separating, disconnecting from your body so that you can, like, kinda use your body and objectify it however you like. But emotionally, you feel really guilty and shameful about it. And so it's disjointed and- and it's dysfunctional. And so why are we even trying to do that voluntarily, you know? What happens to a sexual trauma victim is not something we should be trying to replicate voluntarily to ourselves. And so healing a woman's relationship to her body, to her sexuality is really my goal of helping women do that. And so learning how to be sexual with your partner is th- the- the key. And so as long as you have that healthy context, then yeah, you don't have to disconnect because you're attached to that person, you trust that person, you love that person. It's not someone that's random or, you know, just used for a thrill. That's a very superficial, uh, bodily response. And to have that distinct from an emotional attachment is unhealthy.

Chris Williamson 1:02:20 I couldn't agree more. I think that's a- a really lovely note to finish it on.

Dr Taylor Burrowes 1:02:23 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 1:02:23 So, uh, Dr. Burrows, people that have listened, if they might wanna get in touch or find out a little bit more about you, where can they go?

Dr Taylor Burrowes 1:02:30 My website is a great place to go, although I need to upgrade that a little bit. It's Dr. Burrows... drtaylorburrows.com. Sorry. And, uh, Twitter is a great place as well, so @taylorburrows.

Chris Williamson 1:02:42 Fantastic. Well, all of this will be linked in the show notes below. If you wanna go and check out, uh, Dr. Burrows running with Mr. Tate, uh-

Dr Taylor Burrowes 1:02:50 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 1:02:50 ... I'll make sure (laughs) that that's linked in the show notes below. Uh, but thank you so much for your time. I think we have really helped some people today.

Dr Taylor Burrowes 1:02:57 I hope so. But let me know. I would like to follow up if- if- if there's more to add. (laughs)

Chris Williamson 1:03:01 Sure thing. Thank you.

Narrator 1:03:07 (instrumental music)