A PhD In Relationship Advice | Dr Taylor Burrowes

1. 0:00 – 15:00

   People ask me all…

   1. TBDr Taylor Burrowes0:00

      People ask me all the time, I talk about finding your, or attracting your ideal partner, really. And that really stems from, from you and you developing your ideal self. People really want that sort of cheat sheet of like, what are the things that you look for to find th- that ideal partner? And first of all, it's not just one person, but there's probably a limited supply of ideal matches for you in the universe. Not everyone is an ideal partner. Not 50% of people are gonna be an ideal partner. So yes, it's gonna be a smaller percentage. And so you have to learn what to look for, and it's based on you developing yourself according to your personality, what fits best for you, the lifestyle that you choose to lead, your values, belief systems. Uh, a- and generally speaking, that fluctuates over your lifespan. But usually, y- you know, in your 30s, maybe late 20s, you will sort of solidify a lot of that. If we actually did more work in the self-development, um, part, uh, then we would probably do a b- a much better job of, of attracting the right type of people to us. (air rushing)

   2. CWChris Williamson1:11

      I am joined by Dr. Taylor Burrows today. Ms. Burrows, welcome to the show.

   3. TBDr Taylor Burrowes1:17

      Thank you. Thank you for having me. I'm excited.

   4. CWChris Williamson1:19

      I'm very excited to have you on as well. Am I right in thinking that you've got essentially a PhD in relationships?

   5. TBDr Taylor Burrowes1:25

      (laughs) Yeah, you could say that. It's, um, a PhD in marriage, couples, and family therapy. So that almost covers them all. (laughs)

   6. CWChris Williamson1:33

      That's a ... You're a doctor of relationships. (laughs)

   7. TBDr Taylor Burrowes1:36

      Yeah. And you know, I, I like to include the relationship with oneself as well, so that's included in there too.

   8. CWChris Williamson1:42

      Fantastic.

   9. TBDr Taylor Burrowes1:43

      (laughs)

   10. CWChris Williamson1:43

       How is your relationship with yourself today?

   11. TBDr Taylor Burrowes1:46

       It's going very well.

   12. CWChris Williamson1:47

       (laughs)

   13. TBDr Taylor Burrowes1:47

       Yesterday, I, uh, I w- I did a really good workout. I'm staying at this beautiful condo and I just had a lovely afternoon, and then I topped it up with like a full home-cooked meal, and then did like a- an evening stroll on South Beach, which I bumped into a lot of characters and it was lots of fun, so I'm doing well. (laughs)

   14. CWChris Williamson2:05

       D- did you take yourself out for a date?

   15. TBDr Taylor Burrowes2:07

       (laughs) Yeah, basically.

   16. CWChris Williamson2:08

       That sounds like the ultimate date night, but just with yourself. That's actually my perfect evening.

   17. TBDr Taylor Burrowes2:14

       Yeah, I like ... I like to do that quite often actually, so that's the norm in my world. (laughs)

   18. CWChris Williamson2:18

       Amazing. Um, so we're just gonna riff on relationships today, I guess. We've had a lot of interesting characters on recently. We did a, a full series, a four-episode series on our advice on relationships, and I've recently had Caleb Jones on who's a non-monogamy advocate talking about his sort of views. Um, I guess to start off, what does 14 years of clinical mental health-

   19. TBDr Taylor Burrowes2:44

       (laughs)

   20. CWChris Williamson2:44

       ... and marriage and family counseling l- look like when you come out the other side of that? What, what are the sort of experiences that you have in that?

   21. TBDr Taylor Burrowes2:53

       Well, it evolved in stages, basically. You know, like when you're a green intern, they say, you know, you, you have a supervisor, you're kinda like half licensed, uh, so you're more of a student, and you're kind of just learning the ropes, doing a lot of observations, and probably scared shitless- (laughs)

   22. CWChris Williamson3:12

       (laughs)

   23. TBDr Taylor Burrowes3:13

       ... to actually be in control, you know, one day, when you're, y- you know, you're front and center basically and have to kinda cover the whole hour by yourself. So you go through this process of confidence-building, really, and empathy development. And so, uh, most programs, the best ones, will mandate that you have to go through your own psychotherapy and group therapy and stuff like that till you learn what it's like and you also process whatever maybe stuff you have from your own life experiences, 'cause notoriously, a lot of therapists have been through a lot of adverse events. And if they haven't sorted (laughs) through their own stuff, then it's dangerous 'cause then they can kinda project that onto clients. So-

   24. CWChris Williamson3:57

       Wow.

   25. TBDr Taylor Burrowes3:57

       ... definitely important to do that. Yeah. (laughs)

   26. CWChris Williamson3:59

       Yeah. I bet it is.

   27. TBDr Taylor Burrowes4:02

       Yeah. Can you imagine if you had a medical doctor that had a contagious disease and then operated on you? It's kinda like that. (laughs)

   28. CWChris Williamson4:09

       That's exactly what it's like. You're totally right. You said that-

   29. TBDr Taylor Burrowes4:12

       Yeah.

   30. CWChris Williamson4:12

       ... a lot of counselors tend to bring in their own problems. Is that a disproportionate amount? Are a lot of people potentially taking on this role or this job? Are they searching that-
2. 15:00 – 30:00

   Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.…

   1. TBDr Taylor Burrowes15:00

      vest (laughs) .

   2. CWChris Williamson15:01

      Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Glue- glue when you're talking about sexual polarity is a little bit more of a sort of disgusting image, isn't it? You don't want to be talking-

   3. TBDr Taylor Burrowes15:09

      (laughs)

   4. CWChris Williamson15:09

      No one wants to be talking about glue in that situation. It's too- it's too much.

   5. TBDr Taylor Burrowes15:13

      (laughs)

   6. CWChris Williamson15:13

      It's too much for an evening time.

   7. TBDr Taylor Burrowes15:15

      You're a visual person, I'm guessing.

   8. CWChris Williamson15:16

      Well, look, I- I can't help it when you're using the word glue.

   9. TBDr Taylor Burrowes15:20

      (laughs)

   10. CWChris Williamson15:20

       Um, so when you're talking about sexual polarity, um, a couple of people who are listening I know have read David Deida's The Way of the Superior Man, and in that he talks about masculine essence and feminine essence. Is that what we're talking about with sexual polarity or is it more nuanced than that?

   11. TBDr Taylor Burrowes15:38

       Well, we can expand on that, but I- I- I- it's important for... And- and obviously we're talking about, by default, heterosexual people, right?

   12. CWChris Williamson15:46

       Mm-hmm.

   13. TBDr Taylor Burrowes15:46

       Uh, I don't- I don't really talk about the s- the spectrum of- of sexual orientation. (laughs)

   14. CWChris Williamson15:51

       Every different iteration of- of sexual orientations.

   15. TBDr Taylor Burrowes15:54

       Exactly.

   16. CWChris Williamson15:54

       Yeah.

   17. TBDr Taylor Burrowes15:55

       Especially when we're talking about masculine and female energies or elements. Um, it- it applies to any orientation, but let's just stick to the stereotype so it's easy-

   18. CWChris Williamson16:05

       I- I agree, yeah.

   19. TBDr Taylor Burrowes16:05

       ... to discuss this.

   20. CWChris Williamson16:06

       Ju- just to interject there, one of the things that David says is he believes, and I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on this, that even in same-sex relationships or even in non-monogamous relationships, he i- is, um, pretty certain that the masculine energy and the feminine energy still manifests itself. Two women, two men, a man and a woman, or two men and two women, or however- however it works.

   21. TBDr Taylor Burrowes16:29

       (laughs)

   22. CWChris Williamson16:29

       There's every different version of stuff that's going on now.

   23. TBDr Taylor Burrowes16:32

       Yeah.

   24. CWChris Williamson16:32

       But he's still pretty certain that the- in terms of sexual attraction, you have a masculine essence-

   25. TBDr Taylor Burrowes16:37

       Mm-hmm.

   26. CWChris Williamson16:37

       ... and a feminine essence, and sometimes they switch, but he's pretty certain that's the basis of sexual attraction. Is- is that true in your opinion?

   27. TBDr Taylor Burrowes16:46

       I agree, and- and it just gets a little bit more complicated to talk about it when it's... And then you use the word fluid, and then (laughs) it gets even more complicated.

   28. CWChris Williamson16:54

       Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

   29. TBDr Taylor Burrowes16:55

       But yes, with- with same sex, that is a lot more fluid. Although it's still fluid with heterosexuals because depending on the roles that you play and the different strengths and weaknesses that each partner holds, o- one... Like, the woman might actually lead in the domestic area. And so, you know, it might be a feminine household, obviously, like with... I- if she likes, you know, girly things, but she's in more control. So that's more of a masculine energy.

   30. CWChris Williamson17:24

       Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
3. 30:00 – 45:00

   Yeah. …

   1. TBDr Taylor Burrowes30:00

      Do not hedge your bets, because that is sabotaging the relationship. Uh, no matter how you look at it, it's always gonna sabotage the relationship.

   2. CWChris Williamson30:08

      Yeah.

   3. TBDr Taylor Burrowes30:08

      So-Men and women are a little bit different. I think they have a little bit more leeway, the men, to, uh, sort of hedge their bets, I guess. But I don't think that it's the best solution for long- you know, in the long term. I think that if you keep that to a very short period, just to make sure, um, the basic found- foundation exists between-

   4. CWChris Williamson30:31

      Mm-hmm.

   5. TBDr Taylor Burrowes30:31

      ... the two people, like, you make your choice, (laughs) and then you go into an exclusive sexual relationship with that person. Uh, but a lot of times people are holding back trust or holding back the attachment or emotion until they know for sure, as if there's some kind of destination that they're trying to arrive at.

   6. CWChris Williamson30:48

      Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like-

   7. TBDr Taylor Burrowes30:49

      You know? (laughs)

   8. CWChris Williamson30:50

      ... you must be, you must be this ri- this tall to ride the rollercoaster. You must have been together for this long for me to be exclusive with you. And the worst thing is that if you've had that basis, if you've created the relationship on the basis of you sleeping with other people, like, what if it comes out at some point? Like, what if you get rumbled that... And it's happened, like lots of the guys that I work with have had this situation where they've done something towards the beginning of a relationship, and six months, one year in, their girlfriends found out, and it's like, "Well, you didn't tell me." It's like, "Well, we weren't going out." That situation, "You didn't tell me, but we weren't going out," is never ever going to be reconciled, ever in the history of ever.

   9. TBDr Taylor Burrowes31:32

      (laughs)

   10. CWChris Williamson31:32

       Like, it's just always gonna get brought up. "Well, what else are you keeping from me?" One person's gonna say, "Well, I didn't need to tell you because it wasn't time. We weren't exclusive." And the other person's gonna say, "Well, I don't trust you." Fucked. Fully fucked. (laughs)

   11. TBDr Taylor Burrowes31:45

       Yeah, and I'm tr- I'm trying to hammer this, this point home a lot lately on my Twitter page, too.

   12. CWChris Williamson31:49

       Keep hammering away, Taylor. Come on.

   13. TBDr Taylor Burrowes31:51

       I think it's so important to, to stand by... Uh, it's really the easiest way to exist, you know? (laughs)

   14. CWChris Williamson31:58

       Mm-hmm.

   15. TBDr Taylor Burrowes31:58

       To not have anything to hide, to be direct, to be clear, to be straightforward from the beginning, uh, even when it comes to... Even though I p- I promote (laughs) exclusivity, um, even if we're talking about non-exclusivity, just be ethical about it. Be upfront. It's- You're still vetting your partner. It's the same process. It's just you're looking for someone who is comfortable and, and, and values non-exclusivity. And so the two of you can go about your business, doing whatever it is that works for you, and, and be open about it until you decide, "I, I want to be exclusive with you," if that's where they're going, which, which developmentally, uh, you know, you're talking about sort of pressure in, in Hollywood, in media, to have like this love story. I do believe that naturally the progression of i- in humans is to be together. I don't think it's about being a singular individual for your entire lifespan. But it's not... You're not incomplete as an individual. You are in process. And there's a- it comes a point in time where you kind of reach a plateau of who you are. You know, even though you can kind of have novel experiences, and kind of tweak this and tweak that, and always be striving to eat better and sleep, and do all the exercise (laughs) and all of that stuff, you do kind of end up plateauing. And it isn't until, you know, y- y- you, you find that and attract that really great partner that challenges you and draws like good and bad and, and complexity out of you, and then you develop a, a family and, and, and start to bring forward that, that legacy, that you really get to that different type of love, of service, and commitment, and loyalty, and, and all that.

   16. CWChris Williamson33:41

       That's a really good point. I can certainly see myself. So I'm 31, uh, and I'm single, and I can certainly see myself, um, what you're talking about there, that you can continue to, um, have your adventures in life and kind of keep yourself interested. I've just come back from America. I did a four-week road trip with one of my good mates in a five-liter soft top Camaro going across America. Like-

   17. TBDr Taylor Burrowes34:06

       Oh, wow. (laughs)

   18. CWChris Williamson34:06

       ... awesome, cool way to do it.

   19. TBDr Taylor Burrowes34:07

       Yeah.

   20. CWChris Williamson34:08

       But you're right. It is... That is a different flavor of all of the other adventures that I've had so far. It's still... I'm still on whatever level this level is, level one or level 10 or level 100.

   21. TBDr Taylor Burrowes34:20

       (laughs)

   22. CWChris Williamson34:20

       But to get to level 101, the challenge that you have from somebody else, how do we start a family? How do I negotiate a serious relationship with someone that's going to be something that goes on for a long time? I think that's a really, really good point. So I wanted to... I want to get on to trust. We've touched on it a little bit so far. In your experience, what is the, um, ability of people to come back from trust being broken in a relationship? How does that work?

   23. TBDr Taylor Burrowes34:48

       It, it's extremely difficult. I mean, it depends on the, on the injury. Uh, what... If it's infidelity, then... Gosh, I, I was having actually a little debate with, uh, Andrew Tate today on, on, uh, Twitter.

   24. CWChris Williamson35:01

       (laughs) Shout out Andrew.

   25. TBDr Taylor Burrowes35:02

       (laughs)

   26. CWChris Williamson35:02

       He'll be, he'll be listening.

   27. TBDr Taylor Burrowes35:03

       Which is always fun. But he was saying that... He actually said... Made a comment about, um, all the relationship experts out there, go, go cheat on your woman and see what she does. If she s- if she leaves you, she never loved you.

   28. CWChris Williamson35:17

       (laughs)

   29. TBDr Taylor Burrowes35:17

       If she stays, then she loves you. (laughs)

   30. CWChris Williamson35:19

       Oh my God. (laughs) Oh, wow. Andrew, you-
4. 45:00 – 1:00:00

   Mm-hmm. (laughs) Yeah. You…

   1. CWChris Williamson45:00

      bit?

   2. TBDr Taylor Burrowes45:00

      Mm-hmm. (laughs) Yeah. You know, I feel like I've, I've definitely grown a lot as a person and, and applying this into my personal life has been really conducive to s- to success and, and feeling like I'm in a healthy place and I'm, you know, I'm dating and I'm, I'm feeling like, very optimistic and that these things are very helpful for people to, to implement. And a lot of my clients are having results and they're seeing, you know, much, much better, uh, outcomes in their relationships. So it's great to hear that feedback now.

   3. CWChris Williamson45:34

      That's awesome. So we've touched on compatibility between people in terms of their routines. We've talked about sexual polarity and ensuring that you have some, some sort of polarity, some sort of energy which is drawing people together. We've spoken about values and virtues, like what's your life plan? Are you white picket fence? Are you adventures in Himalaya type thing?

   4. TBDr Taylor Burrowes45:53

      (laughs)

   5. CWChris Williamson45:53

      Uh, we've spoken about infidelity and trust and the issues with that as well. Are there any other, um, sort of key themes that you think that the listeners should be aware of?

   6. TBDr Taylor Burrowes46:05

      Well, if we, we, we have to kind of talk directly about sex for a minute. Um-

   7. CWChris Williamson46:09

      Let's talk, let's talk directly about sex for a minute.

   8. TBDr Taylor Burrowes46:12

      (laughs)

   9. CWChris Williamson46:12

      Dr. Broz, I'm here, I'm listening.

   10. TBDr Taylor Burrowes46:14

       It's- it's (laughs) , it's really important for women, especially. Men, I mean, we work together, but men kinda, you know, they're comfortable talking about sex, they're comfortable having lots of sex, but women feel somewhat restrained in their sexuality. And I've been trying to, to discuss this a lot, to separate the sort of negative, slutty, explicit sexuality from the very sensual, healthy, feminine sensuality. Whether you call it sexy or, or sensual doesn't really matter, but just sort of distinguishing the two between that sort of corrupt, objectified, um, version that's sort of blatant and inappropriate (laughs) . So women have been sort of inundated with this image. And even with men, they kind of do the same thing. They split their images of women into, you know, the virtuous, was it Madonna? And the, and the sort of slutty-

   11. CWChris Williamson47:10

       Madonna, yeah.

   12. TBDr Taylor Burrowes47:11

       Right, like the sort of having the, the slut and then the, the pure version of a woman. And basically, women have been doing that in a way that they, they choose one or the other. They're not really integrating both archetypes. I mean, there's more than just the two. But if we just look at those two, women are, are sort of rejecting the explicit sexual element and trying to be very demure or the opposite. And so trying to integrate those two is a very difficult process for women because there's so much stigma attached to it. And we talk about, um, promiscuity and sexual liberation, and nobody really knows what to do. And, and then women are judged if they've had too many sexual partners or if they're too seductive or their dress is, you know, too, you know, ex- like exposing of themselves. So learning for women how, how to be selective with their sexual partners, uh, and yet be very open and free with their sexual partners is a very hard process. And I, and I think it's important to address, uh, whether I work with women one-on-one or I work with couples for if you have that trust in a relationship, right, then you're gonna have a much better time exploring that, that, you know, that complexity, because you should feel that your, your woman is...... you know, honorable, and she's committed to you, and you don't have to worry about her doing anything inappropriate in a sexualized way with somebody else. But with you, she should be more open and adventurous and be able to be comfortable in her body and basically explicit. So (laughs) you ha- you have to really accommodate that growth and, and be growth, to have that growth mindset there, you know?

   13. CWChris Williamson49:01

       Isn't it strange that when we're talking about, uh, the female sexual archetypes, that being capable in bed is also lumbered with the same label of being promiscuous, or being a, a slut, or whatever the term is? Isn't that weird?

   14. TBDr Taylor Burrowes49:21

       Yeah. It, it, it's, it's, it's something that we don't really (sighs) feel comfortable talking about. And so it ... I mean, I'm not, I'm not like advocating for us to talk about sex with children. But (laughs) I think it is important for women to be able to talk about it with their partners, uh, if they're feeling shy, or if they're feeling uncomfortable or unsure about things and why, and for the man to be able to have that intimacy with her to make her feel comfortable, to make her feel, uh, that it's okay, and, you know, you have to be prepared because then you have to sorta still see her as a mother, if you have children-

   15. CWChris Williamson50:01

       (laughs)

   16. TBDr Taylor Burrowes50:01

       ... but then she's your hot, sexy lover behind closed doors or whatever.

   17. CWChris Williamson50:05

       There's a lot of roles, a lot of masks-

   18. TBDr Taylor Burrowes50:06

       So (laughs) yeah.

   19. CWChris Williamson50:06

       ... that, that women have got to play, haven't they? Like, the man kind of ... if we've got, again, typical masculine, feminine energies going from the ways that they mostly do, you've got the man ... and the man's kind of always doing that, right? Like, he's fixing the car, he's picking the kids up off the ground, he's going to work, and then he's coming home and he's having sex, whereas the mother needs to be a lot of, a lot of different roles, right? I, I think that's, that's maybe-

   20. TBDr Taylor Burrowes50:32

       Mm-hmm.

   21. CWChris Williamson50:32

       ... one of the issues where you've got ... that they, they need to spin a lot of plates.

   22. TBDr Taylor Burrowes50:36

       And if they're not, and they're repressing that, that's what happens, too, in the demise of a relationship is she will do that. She'll sort of see her husband as the protector/provider, and then she'll start fantasizing about the sexy gardener or whatever, right?

   23. CWChris Williamson50:53

       Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

   24. TBDr Taylor Burrowes50:54

       So if you don't address these issues early on, starting from when you're dating, then they're gonna create these cracks in your relationship that are going to create like the sort of risk for all those types of outcomes, and being able to ... I ... it's almost like you have to have that rhythm and harmony and be in sync with your partner so that you can kinda be really hyper, like, sexual with them, but then also talk about day-to-day logistics and (laughs) the boring stuff.

   25. CWChris Williamson51:23

       (laughs) Yeah, "Look, we've run out of, we've run out of milk, and we've run out of bread, and it's your turn to clean the toilet," like, yeah.

   26. TBDr Taylor Burrowes51:29

       "And come over here, sexy. I need some of that."

   27. CWChris Williamson51:32

       Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

   28. TBDr Taylor Burrowes51:32

       You know? Like you, you have to be able to-

   29. CWChris Williamson51:34

       Difficult dis- difficult discussion to have.

   30. TBDr Taylor Burrowes51:35

       (laughs) It, it shouldn't be, and, and, and it's, it's, it's fun. It's playful, and that's what keeps the spark alive. And so you don't want to drag on all of that sort of boring life stuff for too long without injecting a little bit of that pizazz and that sexiness in there. So y- you know, women, we need to feel encouraged to do that, um, and men have to learn how to sorta draw that out of us as well, because it's there. It's just a matter of feeling that comfort and, and that trust in order to, to do that.
5. 1:00:00 – 1:03:20

   Like puni- like punishing…

   1. TBDr Taylor Burrowes1:00:00

      right, a lot of that Cosmopolitan, and I t- I forget what, there was a headline yesterday or maybe it was this morning talking about, um, women, I don't know, women doing this or that sexual behavior and promoting it. And I, I think it's just... one, it's causing us to then become more promiscuous as women, and having more casual, casual sex is really going to infringe our ability to find a proper partner, uh, to attach properly to a romantic partner long term, and it also just, it desensitizes us to our own body and emotionally. Basically if you... a- I'm also like a sexual trauma recovery spel- specialist.And part of sexual trauma, uh, is this, what happens is this, uh, dis- disorientation and- and de- detachment between the body and your emotions. And then you sort of have this self-imposed, um, objectification, right?

   2. CWChris Williamson1:01:05

      Like puni- like punishing yourself?

   3. TBDr Taylor Burrowes1:01:06

      And then... Exactly. And so I call it self-exploitation. But basically, it's literally just you- you're separating, disconnecting from your body so that you can, like, kinda use your body and objectify it however you like. But emotionally, you feel really guilty and shameful about it. And so it's disjointed and- and it's dysfunctional. And so why are we even trying to do that voluntarily, you know? What happens to a sexual trauma victim is not something we should be trying to replicate voluntarily to ourselves. And so healing a woman's relationship to her body, to her sexuality is really my goal of helping women do that. And so learning how to be sexual with your partner is th- the- the key. And so as long as you have that healthy context, then yeah, you don't have to disconnect because you're attached to that person, you trust that person, you love that person. It's not someone that's random or, you know, just used for a thrill. That's a very superficial, uh, bodily response. And to have that distinct from an emotional attachment is unhealthy.

   4. CWChris Williamson1:02:20

      I couldn't agree more. I think that's a- a really lovely note to finish it on.

   5. TBDr Taylor Burrowes1:02:23

      (laughs)

   6. CWChris Williamson1:02:23

      So, uh, Dr. Burrows, people that have listened, if they might wanna get in touch or find out a little bit more about you, where can they go?

   7. TBDr Taylor Burrowes1:02:30

      My website is a great place to go, although I need to upgrade that a little bit. It's Dr. Burrows... drtaylorburrows.com. Sorry. And, uh, Twitter is a great place as well, so @taylorburrows.

   8. CWChris Williamson1:02:42

      Fantastic. Well, all of this will be linked in the show notes below. If you wanna go and check out, uh, Dr. Burrows running with Mr. Tate, uh-

   9. TBDr Taylor Burrowes1:02:50

      (laughs)

   10. CWChris Williamson1:02:50

       ... I'll make sure (laughs) that that's linked in the show notes below. Uh, but thank you so much for your time. I think we have really helped some people today.

   11. TBDr Taylor Burrowes1:02:57

       I hope so. But let me know. I would like to follow up if- if- if there's more to add. (laughs)

   12. CWChris Williamson1:03:01

       Sure thing. Thank you.

   13. NANarrator1:03:07

       (instrumental music)

Episode duration: 1:03:20