A PhD In Relationship Advice | Dr Taylor Burrowes

1. 0:00 – 1:11

   Attracting an ideal partner starts with becoming your ideal self

   1. TBDr Taylor Burrowes0:00

      People ask me all the time, I talk about finding your, or attracting your ideal partner, really. And that really stems from, from you and you developing your ideal self. People really want that sort of cheat sheet of like, what are the things that you look for to find th- that ideal partner? And first of all, it's not just one person, but there's probably a limited supply of ideal matches for you in the universe. Not everyone is an ideal partner. Not 50% of people are gonna be an ideal partner. So yes, it's gonna be a smaller percentage. And so you have to learn what to look for, and it's based on you developing yourself according to your personality, what fits best for you, the lifestyle that you choose to lead, your values, belief systems. Uh, a- and generally speaking, that fluctuates over your lifespan. But usually, y- you know, in your 30s, maybe late 20s, you will sort of solidify a lot of that. If we actually did more work in the self-development, um, part, uh, then we would probably do a b- a much better job of, of attracting the right type of people to us. (air rushing)

2. 1:11 – 4:12

   What a ‘PhD in relationships’ actually trains: supervision, empathy, and therapist self-work

   1. CWChris Williamson1:11

      I am joined by Dr. Taylor Burrows today. Ms. Burrows, welcome to the show.

   2. TBDr Taylor Burrowes1:17

      Thank you. Thank you for having me. I'm excited.

   3. CWChris Williamson1:19

      I'm very excited to have you on as well. Am I right in thinking that you've got essentially a PhD in relationships?

   4. TBDr Taylor Burrowes1:25

      (laughs) Yeah, you could say that. It's, um, a PhD in marriage, couples, and family therapy. So that almost covers them all. (laughs)

   5. CWChris Williamson1:33

      That's a ... You're a doctor of relationships. (laughs)

   6. TBDr Taylor Burrowes1:36

      Yeah. And you know, I, I like to include the relationship with oneself as well, so that's included in there too.

   7. CWChris Williamson1:42

      Fantastic.

   8. TBDr Taylor Burrowes1:43

      (laughs)

   9. CWChris Williamson1:43

      How is your relationship with yourself today?

   10. TBDr Taylor Burrowes1:46

       It's going very well.

   11. CWChris Williamson1:47

       (laughs)

   12. TBDr Taylor Burrowes1:47

       Yesterday, I, uh, I w- I did a really good workout. I'm staying at this beautiful condo and I just had a lovely afternoon, and then I topped it up with like a full home-cooked meal, and then did like a- an evening stroll on South Beach, which I bumped into a lot of characters and it was lots of fun, so I'm doing well. (laughs)

   13. CWChris Williamson2:05

       D- did you take yourself out for a date?

   14. TBDr Taylor Burrowes2:07

       (laughs) Yeah, basically.

   15. CWChris Williamson2:08

       That sounds like the ultimate date night, but just with yourself. That's actually my perfect evening.

   16. TBDr Taylor Burrowes2:14

       Yeah, I like ... I like to do that quite often actually, so that's the norm in my world. (laughs)

   17. CWChris Williamson2:18

       Amazing. Um, so we're just gonna riff on relationships today, I guess. We've had a lot of interesting characters on recently. We did a, a full series, a four-episode series on our advice on relationships, and I've recently had Caleb Jones on who's a non-monogamy advocate talking about his sort of views. Um, I guess to start off, what does 14 years of clinical mental health-

   18. TBDr Taylor Burrowes2:44

       (laughs)

   19. CWChris Williamson2:44

       ... and marriage and family counseling l- look like when you come out the other side of that? What, what are the sort of experiences that you have in that?

   20. TBDr Taylor Burrowes2:53

       Well, it evolved in stages, basically. You know, like when you're a green intern, they say, you know, you, you have a supervisor, you're kinda like half licensed, uh, so you're more of a student, and you're kind of just learning the ropes, doing a lot of observations, and probably scared shitless- (laughs)

   21. CWChris Williamson3:12

       (laughs)

   22. TBDr Taylor Burrowes3:13

       ... to actually be in control, you know, one day, when you're, y- you know, you're front and center basically and have to kinda cover the whole hour by yourself. So you go through this process of confidence-building, really, and empathy development. And so, uh, most programs, the best ones, will mandate that you have to go through your own psychotherapy and group therapy and stuff like that till you learn what it's like and you also process whatever maybe stuff you have from your own life experiences, 'cause notoriously, a lot of therapists have been through a lot of adverse events. And if they haven't sorted (laughs) through their own stuff, then it's dangerous 'cause then they can kinda project that onto clients. So-

   23. CWChris Williamson3:57

       Wow.

   24. TBDr Taylor Burrowes3:57

       ... definitely important to do that. Yeah. (laughs)

   25. CWChris Williamson3:59

       Yeah. I bet it is.

   26. TBDr Taylor Burrowes4:02

       Yeah. Can you imagine if you had a medical doctor that had a contagious disease and then operated on you? It's kinda like that. (laughs)

   27. CWChris Williamson4:09

       That's exactly what it's like. You're totally right. You said that-

3. 4:12 – 7:04

   Why many therapists are drawn to the field: trauma, sensitivity, and meaning-making

   1. TBDr Taylor Burrowes4:12

      Yeah.

   2. CWChris Williamson4:12

      ... a lot of counselors tend to bring in their own problems. Is that a disproportionate amount? Are a lot of people potentially taking on this role or this job? Are they searching that-

   3. TBDr Taylor Burrowes4:23

      (laughs)

   4. CWChris Williamson4:23

      ... in an effort to kind of fix themselves?

   5. TBDr Taylor Burrowes4:26

      Yeah, I ... Well, I won't say that all therapists are damaged. What I'll say is (laughs) that it is quite common that when people experience trauma, they either go one or two directions, right? If they don't deal with it, they don't recover properly, then they can sort of, in effect, go through life as if they're damaged or handicapped emotionally, right? But it also has an opposite effect, so if you do th- recover properly, if you do access the internal and extorno- external resources in order to, you know, heal, you can actually become an even better person than you were before this thing happened to you, whether it was like a s- a si- singular event or whether it was just your parents sucked (laughs) or you grew up in a poor neighborhood and witnessed some bad things. I mean, it could be anything that you experienced. But the ... From the other side of it, interestingly enough, I've had so many clients, usually, like, the young teenagers that develop this desire to wanna be psychologists because of the experience we've had in therapy, and they're like, "Well, I wanna help people," or, "I wanna learn about what's going on with me more," so that's kinda what, uh, what you see a lot.

   6. CWChris Williamson5:39

      That's really interesting.

   7. TBDr Taylor Burrowes5:40

      Mm-hmm.

   8. CWChris Williamson5:40

      Do you think that perhaps some of the people that suffer a little bit more, whether it be with personal or relationship issues, are they more susceptible to suffering because they've got higher empathy and then that empathy leads them towards potentially thinking, "I could help other people with that?" Is that one of the traits or is it something else?

   9. TBDr Taylor Burrowes5:59

      Well, s- sensitivity is, I guess, related to empathy, right? So people who are highly emotional in that- in that sense, um, would be sensitive to extremes and positive or negative emotions. And so, th- they can be susceptible, and if they don't learn how to guard themself from that, and they don't develop those coping mechanisms that are healthy and proactive to prevent those types of influences in their lives, then they can go through stages where they're, you know, emotionally stressed or distressed or- or even dysfunctional and disordered. And so, yeah, a lot of times people will gravitate to tho- to those types to sort of, you know, unleash whatever's on their mind or whatever's on their chest. And some of them m- just have a natural tendency of- of enjoying that process. And so they may then g- be attracted to this profession.

   10. CWChris Williamson6:56

       I understand. Yeah. So-

   11. TBDr Taylor Burrowes6:57

       (laughs)

   12. CWChris Williamson6:58

       ... moving on to the nitty-gritty of marriage and couples and family counseling and stuff like that-

   13. TBDr Taylor Burrowes7:03

       (laughs)

4. 7:04 – 10:13

   The most common relationship problem: choosing the wrong partner (and why therapy becomes a last resort)

   1. CWChris Williamson7:04

      ... what were some of the trends that you saw? Potentially, why were people coming in, in terms of couples and- and marriages? Why were people coming in 14 years ago? And then you only left this year, right? You stopped- you stopped being a full-time therapist this year. Is that correct?

   2. TBDr Taylor Burrowes7:18

      It was last year.

   3. CWChris Williamson7:19

      Okay.

   4. TBDr Taylor Burrowes7:20

      So, uh, l- last year, May.

   5. CWChris Williamson7:21

      Yeah.

   6. TBDr Taylor Burrowes7:22

      And, um, yeah, it was- it was definitely ... I- I wouldn't say it was a big decision because it kinda happened gradually and just really naturally for me as I evolved as a therapist, uh, but also personally too, and I've talked about it a little bit as well. Um, but what I can sort of m- summarize it to say is that part of my process in being a marriage therapist was dealing with the pressure when I was single of how that looked or how that impacted my work, not having had that experience. And so part of me, not consciously, but it kinda pressured me to get married (laughs) and, um, I think that was- that was in 2012, I got married, and then I ended up, you know, leaving the marriage. So i- it was a difficult time because it's obviously something that ha- carries a lot of stigma, especially if you're a marriage therapist, and why are people gonna come to you and talk about th-

   7. CWChris Williamson8:17

      (laughs)

   8. TBDr Taylor Burrowes8:18

      ... (laughs) how- how to have, like, a happy, successful (laughs) marriage? You- you see? You- you understand what I'm saying now.

   9. CWChris Williamson8:24

      Absolutely.

   10. TBDr Taylor Burrowes8:26

       So ... But it c- comes from both angles. And so now I've had a lot of time since then, uh, to process what mistakes I made, uh, what was it that I needed to apply myself, and how did I come to understand the actual profession of marriage therapy? And so I- I applied what marriage therapy said the whole time, so it kinda aligned with all of this stuff that I've been learning and adding to my repertoire over the years. Uh, so getting back to your original question, the number one thing is that people are choosing the wrong partners, so that's why I've developed my approach about vetting in the coaching work that I do with clients, because you can't really fix something that's fundamentally flawed, and especially if it's only one person that maybe is motivated to make the changes, you can't do it. So it's- it's really frustrating, it's a waste of time, a waste of money, and it just brings up all this conflict in marital therapy, which is used as, like, a last case resort anyway, for the most part. So I've gotten away from all that, and now I'm looking at helping people at the dating stage find the right partner and then do things the right way.

   11. CWChris Williamson9:42

       So starting from a- a point where you've got a good foundation. I mean, it ... Is anyone that's listening surprised to hear that if you have someone you're incompatible with, your relationship's probably not gonna go well? I don't think so.

   12. TBDr Taylor Burrowes9:56

       I think people expect that if they feel strongly enough, if they love, if they lust, if they're, you know, excitable and- and- and whatnot, that they can make it work, there's some sort of magic wand that will erase all the problems.

   13. CWChris Williamson10:09

       But that's not the case?

   14. TBDr Taylor Burrowes10:10

       No (laughs) .

   15. CWChris Williamson10:11

       So-

   16. TBDr Taylor Burrowes10:11

       It doesn't quite work that way (laughs) .

5. 10:13 – 15:20

   Compatibility beyond chemistry: lifestyle fit, routines, and the ‘unromantic’ practicals

   1. CWChris Williamson10:13

      ... fundamentally, you've mentioned, number one, one of the- th- the first thing that people need to get right when they're looking for a partner is that they need to find someone they're compatible with. What does that look like?

   2. TBDr Taylor Burrowes10:24

      Well, people ask me all the time, I talk about finding your- or attracting your ideal partner, really, and that really stems from- from you and you developing your ideal self. People really want that sort of cheat sheet of, like, what are the things that you look for to find th- that ideal partner? And first of all, it's not just one person, but there's probably a limited supply of ideal matches for you in the universe. Not everyone is an ideal partner. Not 50% of people are gonna be an ideal partner. So yes, it's gonna be a smaller percentage. So, uh, 'cause I know I- I- I ... people talk about the whole soulmate myth. So there's something in between one person for you and everyone's for you, right?

   3. CWChris Williamson11:08

      (laughs)

   4. TBDr Taylor Burrowes11:08

      There's gonna be, like, maybe 1,000 people out there, or maybe ahu- 10,000 people. Who knows?

   5. CWChris Williamson11:13

      Yeah.

   6. TBDr Taylor Burrowes11:14

      But it's definitely a limited supply. And so you have to learn what to look for, and it's based on you developing yourself according to your personality, what fits best for you, the lifestyle that you choose to lead, your values, belief systems, uh, and generally speaking, that fluctuates over your lifespan. But usually, you know, in your 30s, maybe late 20s, you'll sort of solidify a lot of that. And so the more work that you do, rather than spending that sort of decade of escapism and whatever you wanna call it, um, juvenile, immature exploration-

   7. CWChris Williamson11:51

      We've all been there.

   8. TBDr Taylor Burrowes11:52

      ... experimentation, yeah (laughs) .

   9. CWChris Williamson11:53

      Yeah, we've all been there.

   10. TBDr Taylor Burrowes11:53

       Like, if we actually did more work in the self-development, um, part, uh, then we would probably do a b- a much better job of- of attracting the right type of people to us.

   11. CWChris Williamson12:05

       Yeah. So I did a- a podcast with Daniel Sloss. He's a Scottish comedian. Have you heard of him?

   12. TBDr Taylor Burrowes12:10

       Hmm. No, I don't think so.

   13. CWChris Williamson12:12

       So he's got a Netflix special, uh, called Jigsaw, and his Twitter bio has the stats of how many breakups and divorces his Netflix special has caused. That it's-

   14. TBDr Taylor Burrowes12:25

       Oh, no.

   15. CWChris Williamson12:26

       ... it's, it's a, a, it's not a hatred of relationships. He calls it a love letter to single people. And he says-

   16. TBDr Taylor Burrowes12:31

       Ah.

   17. CWChris Williamson12:32

       ... that people get pushed into relationships because they don't feel whole without them, and says that there's the- this meta-narrative that runs across all of society saying that you on your own are essentially not a whole person and that you need to find this person that is going to make you whole. Like, look at any TV show. He says- he talks about pitching TV shows to networks and it's like a comedy or something normal. And they'll say, "We love it, but what's the love interest?" And he's like-

   18. TBDr Taylor Burrowes12:59

       (laughs)

   19. CWChris Williamson12:59

       ... "Why does there need to be a fucking love interest? It's not about love." But there's- it is so ubiquitous, right, this search for the partner that in every-

   20. TBDr Taylor Burrowes13:09

       Mm-hmm.

   21. CWChris Williamson13:09

       ... even a show which is unrelated to love, there's gotta be, there's gotta be the love interest, right? 'Cause that's- that's one of the things-

   22. TBDr Taylor Burrowes13:14

       Right.

   23. CWChris Williamson13:14

       ... that keeps it going. And yeah, he, he, uh, agrees with you on what you say. You need to be able to love yourself before you can allow someone else to love you and before you can really let someone in properly. Because if you don't understand who you are, like how the fuck do you expect someone else to?

   24. TBDr Taylor Burrowes13:31

       (laughs) Exactly. No, I- I- I- I definitely agree with that approach (laughs) .

   25. CWChris Williamson13:35

       Yeah. Um, so you've mentioned finding someone that you think is compatible, that doesn't always mean, I'm gonna guess, that doesn't always mean finding someone that's the same as you, right? 'Cause sometimes, like, opposites can work together and stuff like that.

   26. TBDr Taylor Burrowes13:49

       Yeah, there's gonna be issues that you need commonalities and- and issues that you need polarities.

   27. CWChris Williamson13:54

       All right. That's cool.

   28. TBDr Taylor Burrowes13:55

       So you ki- you- you have to know what those things are. And I usually find that the lifestyle, um, elements are the ones that you need commonalities on. So if it's like you have a healthy diet, you're an active person, uh, maybe you- you like to spend some time just ha- developing a routine and being more, uh, productive versus finding any excuse to get out of the house and- and busy yourself with socializing or whatever. Although introverts and extroverts can be a very, very effective polarity.

   29. CWChris Williamson14:27

       Mm-hmm.

   30. TBDr Taylor Burrowes14:28

       Um, it depends. It depends on a lot of factors, usually the maturity of the person, uh, because we fluctuate through our lifespans depending on- on that characteristic. But yeah, I mean, like, the sexual polarity is obviously the most important one when you're talking about, like, chemistry and sexual attraction, desire, uh, that needs to be really pronounced so that you- you sort of magnetize towards each other. And no matter what conflict is happening in the relationship, that can always be, like... I mean, people call it the glue, but I like to call it the life vest (laughs) .
6. 15:20 – 21:18

   Sexual polarity and masculine/feminine dynamics (including same-sex nuance)

   1. CWChris Williamson15:20

      Um, so when you're talking about sexual polarity, um, a couple of people who are listening I know have read David Deida's The Way of the Superior Man, and in that he talks about masculine essence and feminine essence. Is that what we're talking about with sexual polarity or is it more nuanced than that?

   2. TBDr Taylor Burrowes15:38

      Well, we can expand on that, but I- I- I- it's important for... And- and obviously we're talking about, by default, heterosexual people, right?

   3. CWChris Williamson15:46

      Mm-hmm.

   4. TBDr Taylor Burrowes15:46

      Uh, I don't- I don't really talk about the s- the spectrum of- of sexual orientation. (laughs)

   5. CWChris Williamson15:51

      Every different iteration of- of sexual orientations.

   6. TBDr Taylor Burrowes15:54

      Exactly.

   7. CWChris Williamson15:54

      Yeah.

   8. TBDr Taylor Burrowes15:55

      Especially when we're talking about masculine and female energies or elements. Um, it- it applies to any orientation, but let's just stick to the stereotype so it's easy-

   9. CWChris Williamson16:05

      I- I agree, yeah.

   10. TBDr Taylor Burrowes16:05

       ... to discuss this.

   11. CWChris Williamson16:06

       Ju- just to interject there, one of the things that David says is he believes, and I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on this, that even in same-sex relationships or even in non-monogamous relationships, he i- is, um, pretty certain that the masculine energy and the feminine energy still manifests itself. Two women, two men, a man and a woman, or two men and two women, or however- however it works.

   12. TBDr Taylor Burrowes16:29

       (laughs)

   13. CWChris Williamson16:29

       There's every different version of stuff that's going on now.

   14. TBDr Taylor Burrowes16:32

       Yeah.

   15. CWChris Williamson16:32

       But he's still pretty certain that the- in terms of sexual attraction, you have a masculine essence-

   16. TBDr Taylor Burrowes16:37

       Mm-hmm.

   17. CWChris Williamson16:37

       ... and a feminine essence, and sometimes they switch, but he's pretty certain that's the basis of sexual attraction. Is- is that true in your opinion?

   18. TBDr Taylor Burrowes16:46

       I agree, and- and it just gets a little bit more complicated to talk about it when it's... And then you use the word fluid, and then (laughs) it gets even more complicated.

   19. CWChris Williamson16:54

       Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

   20. TBDr Taylor Burrowes16:55

       But yes, with- with same sex, that is a lot more fluid. Although it's still fluid with heterosexuals because depending on the roles that you play and the different strengths and weaknesses that each partner holds, o- one... Like, the woman might actually lead in the domestic area. And so, you know, it might be a feminine household, obviously, like with... I- if she likes, you know, girly things, but she's in more control. So that's more of a masculine energy.

   21. CWChris Williamson17:24

       Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

   22. TBDr Taylor Burrowes17:24

       So there's lots of layers to it. It gets quite complex (laughs) . But in a simplified way, if you're talking about a- a- a heterosexual female bringing the feminine energy in, it's gonna be predominantly feminine, not only feminine. So each of us has both. And then the- the masculine having more- the man having more of the masculine energy. And so the more that a- a man is comfortable and confident, uh, bringing forward and living through that element of masculinity, and same w- in reverse with the female and her feminine, then that's going to be l- literally attractive to each other.

   23. CWChris Williamson18:02

       I understand. So we've got choosing someone that is compatible with you, and you mentioned lifestyle. I think that's... It's so overlooked, right, because it doesn't sound romantic. Like, to talk about the fact that I like to go to the gym and you like to go to the cinema-... is like the least romantic thing that people believe should impact on a relationship. But the bottom line is, it's a practical-

   24. TBDr Taylor Burrowes18:23

       Okay.

   25. CWChris Williamson18:23

       ... consideration. Like if I'm going to spend, uh, 15 hours a week in the gym, and you're gonna spend 15 hours a week cooking or with your friends or doing whatever it might be-

   26. TBDr Taylor Burrowes18:34

       Mm-hmm.

   27. CWChris Williamson18:34

       ... those, would ... There's just less time to spend together. There's less stuff going on.

   28. TBDr Taylor Burrowes18:38

       (laughs)

   29. CWChris Williamson18:38

       So it's like a, it's like a practical consideration, right? The, the, the routines and the compatibility in terms of what you're into.

   30. TBDr Taylor Burrowes18:46

       Yeah. And you don't have to share interests th- uh, like all commonalities. You can have differences so that you have time alone and apart, which is healthy, but you don't want it to be predominantly separated, and so I think that's what you're talking about. And it reminds me of when I was, I think I was probably like 17 or something, I went on a trip to Switzerland with my boyfriend at the time, and we were together for like five years. And, uh, he's Swiss, or yeah, he's still Swiss. (laughs) But he's not someone that-
7. 21:18 – 23:26

   Values and future vision: politics, morality, family plans, and how to ‘vet’ without interrogating

   1. TBDr Taylor Burrowes21:18

      The values are so important. Um, you know, you gotta know (laughs) the politics. You gotta know, um, various things about morality, if you're conservative, if you're traditional, if you're family-oriented or you're more like an individualist. Um, a, a lot of things too, like some people just want ... It's almost like you're ... It's kind of a blend between values and lifestyle, but your vision for the future. You have to have that shared vision for the future. So if you want to have a white picket fence with six kids, then you better both want that. And if you don't, then don't escalate the relationship. (laughs)

   2. CWChris Williamson21:57

      Mm-hmm. Yeah. If one of you wants-

   3. TBDr Taylor Burrowes21:59

      But that-

   4. CWChris Williamson21:59

      ... to go traveling around the world.

   5. TBDr Taylor Burrowes22:01

      Exactly.

   6. CWChris Williamson22:02

      Yeah.

   7. TBDr Taylor Burrowes22:03

      So you have to establish those things and any ... Unless you're, you know, hooking up on match.com or something, you're not gonna be filling out some inventory.

   8. CWChris Williamson22:11

      (laughs)

   9. TBDr Taylor Burrowes22:11

      You actually have to, you have to talk to the person over time and, and have discussions about various topics. And, and you don't really wanna give them the sense that you're interrogating them.

   10. CWChris Williamson22:23

       (laughs) Yeah.

   11. TBDr Taylor Burrowes22:24

       But, you know-

   12. CWChris Williamson22:25

       Right.

   13. TBDr Taylor Burrowes22:25

       ... there m- there may be certain bullet points that you're looking for, um, but you do it skillfully and in an appropriate way that you can at least enjoy the time. It doesn't feel like a job interview.

   14. CWChris Williamson22:36

       I get you.

   15. TBDr Taylor Burrowes22:36

       (laughs)

   16. CWChris Williamson22:37

       In- interestingly, something that's just come to mind there, I was listening to Jordan Peterson on Dr. Oz the other day, and, uh, first off, for anyone who hasn't listened to it, it will be linked in the show notes below, and it is an epic podcast. Jordan, I, I don't know whether it's the, the stress of him being on the road. I know his wife as well, Tammy, is, is really ill at the moment, but he breaks-

   17. TBDr Taylor Burrowes23:00

       Mm-hmm.

   18. CWChris Williamson23:00

       ... down crying a couple of times on the episode. And I'm like, "Wow, I would have thought they might have cut this or done something else." But they fully leave it in, and he's, he's talking empathetically. He's caring about other people-

   19. TBDr Taylor Burrowes23:10

       Right.

   20. CWChris Williamson23:10

       ... and that's what's causing him to be emotional. But he definitely seems like his emotions have been raised. So if you're listening and you like JBP, go and give it a watch and let me know what you think. I'd love to hear your thoughts. It was, it was surprising to me and quite moving to me as well. And then Dr. Oz starts welling up as well, and I'm like, "Oh my God, what's going on here?"

   21. TBDr Taylor Burrowes23:26

       (laughs)

8. 23:26 – 27:35

   Cohabitation before marriage: divorce stats, hidden variables, and ‘do your homework first’ commitment

   1. CWChris Williamson23:26

      But one of the stats that they dropped on there, I totally didn't know this, I wonder if you do, apparently living together before marriage increases the likelihood of divorce. Have you seen this statistic?

   2. TBDr Taylor Burrowes23:39

      I've heard about it. I don't know how I feel about that. Um, I think it's ac-

   3. CWChris Williamson23:42

      Is that true in your experience?

   4. TBDr Taylor Burrowes23:45

      (sighs) Well, I haven't really had a lot of people that didn't cohabitate before they married-

   5. CWChris Williamson23:52

      Mm-hmm.

   6. TBDr Taylor Burrowes23:52

      ... so it's hard for me to compare. But when we talk about getting to know someone and compatibility and all those kinds of things, it's, it is really important to have novel experiences together, like if you wanna travel, you wanna endure some kind of stress so that you can see how do they handle those crises and, and how do you work together as a team? So if you're not gonna live together, then you better be manufacturing some opportunities to have that, that sort of context where you have to come together as a team and manage the situation.

   7. CWChris Williamson24:23

      That's a really good point.... it's- it's- so I couldn't believe it when I heard it. I was like, "No, of course, of course, you gotta live together." You got, like, it's par for the course, right? You get ... you move in together, then you get a dog, try the dog out. The dog's like a miniature version of a human.

   8. TBDr Taylor Burrowes24:38

      (laughs)

   9. CWChris Williamson24:38

      And then if the dog works, if the dog's okay, and you're like, "Right, well, we might try for, like, a proper one. We'll get, we'll get a kid." And then you get, maybe get another kid.

   10. TBDr Taylor Burrowes24:44

       (laughs)

   11. CWChris Williamson24:44

       Like, that's what ... That's the- the linear progression, right? Um, the progressive overload of a relationship. But, yeah, uh, the stats seem to be pretty robust, and the justification, I think, that Jordan and Dr. Roz had was the implication for the rest of the relationship is that, "I'm going to try you on before I commit." And it apparently, according to them, allowed a overarching narrative of disposability and the fact that it's gonna be, "I'm gonna see how you get on, and if this doesn't work, then I'm gonna go somewhere else."

   12. TBDr Taylor Burrowes25:23

       (laughs)

   13. CWChris Williamson25:23

       I- I- I, naturally, it doesn't ... that's not how it seems to me, but then I also haven't looked at the stats. So, it's an interesting one.

   14. TBDr Taylor Burrowes25:32

       I bet you it- it's measuring a lot of other things simultaneously that we're not getting at. And- and that's basically the- the whole premise of- of how I approach working with- with people in order to create healthy and successful relationships, is make sure that you're not, you know, with someone who's basically withholding stuff. It's like a conditional-

   15. CWChris Williamson25:53

       Mm.

   16. TBDr Taylor Burrowes25:53

       ... love or commitment. Uh, a lot of people in m- modern times, especially in, you know, North America and- and whatever, they're tr- really trying to look out for themselves, and they aren't committed. And if something goes wrong, they are willing to get a better model or version of- of, uh, a lifestyle that maybe will work better for them, rather than doing all the hard work before, and then once you actually escalate to the point where you're willing to commit to that person, that's it. Like, you're, you've done all of your homework. You've vetted, you've compared your options, you've established who you are and how you're going to manage any kind of critical sort of juncture that- that you would reach with that person, and you know you're gonna come through it on the other side. Whereas most people just sort of jump first and then figure it out.

   17. CWChris Williamson26:43

       Yeah. I wonder how many people that are listening can see in themselves in previous relationships that they've got into, that they've entered it with one foot already out of the door, just in case. And I know that ... And it's the same for me, right? Like, it's a, it's a protectionist strategy against being hurt. Like, opening yourself up and making yourself vulnerable is a ... it's a scary thing to do, and by having one foot out of the door, you've always got in the back of your mind, "Oh, well, I wasn't that bothered anyway." And yeah, well, if you continue to roll that model forward for long enough, it's always not going to work, and you're always going to say, "Oh, well, I just can't find the right person for me." And yeah, well, hang on a second, if you actually ended up committing, you might have had three relationships, five relationships, or one relationship which was perfect, but because you're there with one foot out the door, like, well, what chance are you giving it?

9. 27:35 – 34:48

   The ‘no man’s land’ of modern dating: ambiguity, exclusivity definitions, and trust-building

   1. TBDr Taylor Burrowes27:35

      And trust, I think, is one of those factors that, uh, gets sort of misused or- or- or ignored, neglected, and I find it's really important to develop that trust from the, from the start, very gradually and over time. People rush relationships a lot. And so, you know, if you start dating, whether it's ... I don't know, people refer to dating in- in, with different definitions, and I did a little poll the other day on what it was, but it seems like the majority of people agree that dating means one person exclusively, but there are about 30%, or the people that I polled, it was like 1,000 people, um, said 30% said it's multiple people, 60% said it's one person. So, we do need-

   2. CWChris Williamson28:19

      And that's the-

   3. TBDr Taylor Burrowes28:19

      ... to make sure we're using the same definition. (laughs)

   4. CWChris Williamson28:21

      That- that 60% are really angry at the 30%, and that's exactly where this no man's land ... So, we said it before, in the UK, I don't know if this is the same in the US, it's called seeing someone. So, seeing someone-

   5. TBDr Taylor Burrowes28:33

      Mm-hmm.

   6. CWChris Williamson28:33

      ... is after casual sex, but before an official relationship, so it's whatever that, that bit in the middle is. And it-

   7. TBDr Taylor Burrowes28:41

      Mm-hmm.

   8. CWChris Williamson28:42

      No one knows what the fuck that means. I don't know what it means. We spent-

   9. TBDr Taylor Burrowes28:45

      (laughs)

   10. CWChris Williamson28:45

       We spent four episodes trying to work out what the fuck it means, and we have no idea at all. It's just this no man's land of y- y- uh, you not com- why are you not committed? If you, if you're just having sex with that one person, but you, maybe you're not ready for a relationship, ugh. I- I th- to me, it's like it's hedging your bets in, in the worst-

   11. TBDr Taylor Burrowes29:05

       Yes.

   12. CWChris Williamson29:05

       ... way possible. Like you're j- but you're not-

   13. TBDr Taylor Burrowes29:07

       Exactly.

   14. CWChris Williamson29:07

       ... gaining. You've got all of the loss. You don't have the security of knowing that that person really cares about you. You don't have the ability to fully commit emotionally. You've got sex on top, but you could've had that anyway. And y- uh, I- I just think it's a dangerous, dangerous waters to swim in. If you're seeing someone and you're listening, beware, there's sharks in those waters, okay? So just watch out.

   15. TBDr Taylor Burrowes29:29

       And I encourage women when- when ... It doesn't mean that there's multiple people involved from the man's side, but maybe there's ambiguity. They're not sure what quite they're dealing with, but their values are to be exclusive, to be monogamous. I- I encourage women to stick to that. As long as you're- you're vetting, uh, the man and you're feeling like you still, you're still curious, you're still interested, you still want to- to more time with them, give trust, give exclusivity. Do not hedge your bets, because that is sabotaging the relationship. Uh, no matter how you look at it, it's always gonna sabotage the relationship.

   16. CWChris Williamson30:08

       Yeah.

   17. TBDr Taylor Burrowes30:08

       So-Men and women are a little bit different. I think they have a little bit more leeway, the men, to, uh, sort of hedge their bets, I guess. But I don't think that it's the best solution for long- you know, in the long term. I think that if you keep that to a very short period, just to make sure, um, the basic found- foundation exists between-

   18. CWChris Williamson30:31

       Mm-hmm.

   19. TBDr Taylor Burrowes30:31

       ... the two people, like, you make your choice, (laughs) and then you go into an exclusive sexual relationship with that person. Uh, but a lot of times people are holding back trust or holding back the attachment or emotion until they know for sure, as if there's some kind of destination that they're trying to arrive at.

   20. CWChris Williamson30:48

       Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like-

   21. TBDr Taylor Burrowes30:49

       You know? (laughs)

   22. CWChris Williamson30:50

       ... you must be, you must be this ri- this tall to ride the rollercoaster. You must have been together for this long for me to be exclusive with you. And the worst thing is that if you've had that basis, if you've created the relationship on the basis of you sleeping with other people, like, what if it comes out at some point? Like, what if you get rumbled that... And it's happened, like lots of the guys that I work with have had this situation where they've done something towards the beginning of a relationship, and six months, one year in, their girlfriends found out, and it's like, "Well, you didn't tell me." It's like, "Well, we weren't going out." That situation, "You didn't tell me, but we weren't going out," is never ever going to be reconciled, ever in the history of ever.

   23. TBDr Taylor Burrowes31:32

       (laughs)

   24. CWChris Williamson31:32

       Like, it's just always gonna get brought up. "Well, what else are you keeping from me?" One person's gonna say, "Well, I didn't need to tell you because it wasn't time. We weren't exclusive." And the other person's gonna say, "Well, I don't trust you." Fucked. Fully fucked. (laughs)

   25. TBDr Taylor Burrowes31:45

       Yeah, and I'm tr- I'm trying to hammer this, this point home a lot lately on my Twitter page, too.

   26. CWChris Williamson31:49

       Keep hammering away, Taylor. Come on.

   27. TBDr Taylor Burrowes31:51

       I think it's so important to, to stand by... Uh, it's really the easiest way to exist, you know? (laughs)

   28. CWChris Williamson31:58

       Mm-hmm.

   29. TBDr Taylor Burrowes31:58

       To not have anything to hide, to be direct, to be clear, to be straightforward from the beginning, uh, even when it comes to... Even though I p- I promote (laughs) exclusivity, um, even if we're talking about non-exclusivity, just be ethical about it. Be upfront. It's- You're still vetting your partner. It's the same process. It's just you're looking for someone who is comfortable and, and, and values non-exclusivity. And so the two of you can go about your business, doing whatever it is that works for you, and, and be open about it until you decide, "I, I want to be exclusive with you," if that's where they're going, which, which developmentally, uh, you know, you're talking about sort of pressure in, in Hollywood, in media, to have like this love story. I do believe that naturally the progression of i- in humans is to be together. I don't think it's about being a singular individual for your entire lifespan. But it's not... You're not incomplete as an individual. You are in process. And there's a- it comes a point in time where you kind of reach a plateau of who you are. You know, even though you can kind of have novel experiences, and kind of tweak this and tweak that, and always be striving to eat better and sleep, and do all the exercise (laughs) and all of that stuff, you do kind of end up plateauing. And it isn't until, you know, y- y- you, you find that and attract that really great partner that challenges you and draws like good and bad and, and complexity out of you, and then you develop a, a family and, and, and start to bring forward that, that legacy, that you really get to that different type of love, of service, and commitment, and loyalty, and, and all that.

   30. CWChris Williamson33:41

       That's a really good point. I can certainly see myself. So I'm 31, uh, and I'm single, and I can certainly see myself, um, what you're talking about there, that you can continue to, um, have your adventures in life and kind of keep yourself interested. I've just come back from America. I did a four-week road trip with one of my good mates in a five-liter soft top Camaro going across America. Like-
10. 34:48 – 46:05

    Broken trust and infidelity: denial vs rage, taking responsibility, and when repair is possible

    1. TBDr Taylor Burrowes34:48

       It, it's extremely difficult. I mean, it depends on the, on the injury. Uh, what... If it's infidelity, then... Gosh, I, I was having actually a little debate with, uh, Andrew Tate today on, on, uh, Twitter.

    2. CWChris Williamson35:01

       (laughs) Shout out Andrew.

    3. TBDr Taylor Burrowes35:02

       (laughs)

    4. CWChris Williamson35:02

       He'll be, he'll be listening.

    5. TBDr Taylor Burrowes35:03

       Which is always fun. But he was saying that... He actually said... Made a comment about, um, all the relationship experts out there, go, go cheat on your woman and see what she does. If she s- if she leaves you, she never loved you.

    6. CWChris Williamson35:17

       (laughs)

    7. TBDr Taylor Burrowes35:17

       If she stays, then she loves you. (laughs)

    8. CWChris Williamson35:19

       Oh my God. (laughs) Oh, wow. Andrew, you-

    9. TBDr Taylor Burrowes35:22

       Yeah, it w-

    10. CWChris Williamson35:23

        ... you do not give a fuck, my friend.

    11. TBDr Taylor Burrowes35:26

        Well, we had a really... You should read the thread. It's really good.

    12. CWChris Williamson35:29

        I'll link it, I'll link it in the show notes below. Yeah.

    13. TBDr Taylor Burrowes35:31

        Um, definitely. But we, we kind of came to a, a good sort of compromise, and, uh, we were talking about men being kings and how in the history of existence, all the kings had all the women they wanted and, and whatever.

    14. CWChris Williamson35:44

        Okay. Yeah.

    15. TBDr Taylor Burrowes35:44

        And I said, "Well, not, not all men are meant to be kings, and that's okay."

    16. CWChris Williamson35:48

        Yeah.

    17. TBDr Taylor Burrowes35:48

        And women, not all women want to be with kings.

    18. CWChris Williamson35:51

        Yeah.

    19. TBDr Taylor Burrowes35:51

        Right? Because we have our certain values. So if a woman has a lot of ego or pride or whatever, she may want that king of kings.

    20. CWChris Williamson35:58

        Mm-hmm.

    21. TBDr Taylor Burrowes35:59

        But what, what...I don't even ... I mean, I guess I'm a regular woman, but I think I'm pretty cool. (laughs) Um, like, what I'm looking for is- is a- is a man that I can develop my own sort of empire with. It's not an actual kingdom that's gonna be ruling people. I want my man to be my king, and that is what matters to me. I don't wanna be worried about infidelity and- and having to share things. Like, that's not my value. So, that's why I'm about exclusivity and monogamy and creating a family that has honor and integrity and trust and all of that. So, people have choice. It's not just... We're- we're not just ruled by our biology. We have, you know, morals. We have, uh, you know, all the sort of sociocultural implications that influence our behavior. So, to just say and- and rationalize all of this hedonism based on biology is just, you know... It's kind of an excuse. It really is. (laughs)

    22. CWChris Williamson36:56

        There's a lot, there's a lot of moving parts here, isn't there? So, the Caleb Jones episode, a lot of people that are listening will have heard that, and it was super interesting. If you haven't heard it, I implore you to go back and listen. It's- it's a challenging thing to listen to, to hear the argument for non-monogamy. It was- it was challenging for me, right? Like, to think, "Okay, so I love this person, but in some other version of the world, um, I'm gonna give this non-monogamy stuff a crack, and I'm gonna try. But I have to let someone that I love sleep with whoever she wants." And I'm like, it... Immediately, it just gives this juvenile visceral response, and I'm like, "I- I- I'm only trying to do this rhetorically," and I- I haven't got past the first fucking hurdle. So, how people do it in the real world is beyond me. Also, some of the listeners may be thinking, "I wonder what happened to Aubrey Marcus?" You mentioned him a couple of times on the Caleb Jones episode. Well, let me tell you. Unfortunately, Aubrey and his wife, Whitney, announced that they were transitioning their relationship on Instagram the other day. But in case you're interested, they did a full podcast about it, which shows everything that I mentioned on the Caleb Jones episode about why I thought that relationship was doomed.

    23. TBDr Taylor Burrowes38:06

        (laughs)

    24. CWChris Williamson38:06

        Um, and that's a, that's a call back to a couple of other points, but here's a point for you. Here's a piece of relationship advice that I'm sure that you can get on board with, Dr. Burrows. If you are breaking up with someone, do not do a podcast about it with them. That's-

    25. TBDr Taylor Burrowes38:22

        (laughs)

    26. CWChris Williamson38:22

        Fuck me. Everything, everything in Aubrey's life at the moment is, like, just used as content. It's so... It's- it's madness. But yeah, I think the thing about the king's thing, there's two types of kings, right? Or there's multiple types. There's a tyrant, and then there's the noble, virtuous king. Like, both of them have the title, but they're two very different people. And I think that you've identified there, you have one person who uses their power to get whatever they want, and you have one person who uses their power to raise everybody else up.

    27. TBDr Taylor Burrowes38:50

        Mm-hmm.

    28. CWChris Williamson38:50

        And again, that... We're talking compatibility and stuff like that. You mentioned that infidelity in a relationship is a difficult point to come back from.

    29. TBDr Taylor Burrowes39:00

        Yeah. So, you might not know where you stand on that until it happens.

    30. CWChris Williamson39:06

        Mm.
11. 46:05 – 1:02:23

    Sex, intimacy, and women’s integrated sensuality: stigma, healthy context, and avoiding disconnected ‘performance’

    1. TBDr Taylor Burrowes46:05

       Well, if we, we, we have to kind of talk directly about sex for a minute. Um-

    2. CWChris Williamson46:09

       Let's talk, let's talk directly about sex for a minute.

    3. TBDr Taylor Burrowes46:12

       (laughs)

    4. CWChris Williamson46:12

       Dr. Broz, I'm here, I'm listening.

    5. TBDr Taylor Burrowes46:14

       It's- it's (laughs) , it's really important for women, especially. Men, I mean, we work together, but men kinda, you know, they're comfortable talking about sex, they're comfortable having lots of sex, but women feel somewhat restrained in their sexuality. And I've been trying to, to discuss this a lot, to separate the sort of negative, slutty, explicit sexuality from the very sensual, healthy, feminine sensuality. Whether you call it sexy or, or sensual doesn't really matter, but just sort of distinguishing the two between that sort of corrupt, objectified, um, version that's sort of blatant and inappropriate (laughs) . So women have been sort of inundated with this image. And even with men, they kind of do the same thing. They split their images of women into, you know, the virtuous, was it Madonna? And the, and the sort of slutty-

    6. CWChris Williamson47:10

       Madonna, yeah.

    7. TBDr Taylor Burrowes47:11

       Right, like the sort of having the, the slut and then the, the pure version of a woman. And basically, women have been doing that in a way that they, they choose one or the other. They're not really integrating both archetypes. I mean, there's more than just the two. But if we just look at those two, women are, are sort of rejecting the explicit sexual element and trying to be very demure or the opposite. And so trying to integrate those two is a very difficult process for women because there's so much stigma attached to it. And we talk about, um, promiscuity and sexual liberation, and nobody really knows what to do. And, and then women are judged if they've had too many sexual partners or if they're too seductive or their dress is, you know, too, you know, ex- like exposing of themselves. So learning for women how, how to be selective with their sexual partners, uh, and yet be very open and free with their sexual partners is a very hard process. And I, and I think it's important to address, uh, whether I work with women one-on-one or I work with couples for if you have that trust in a relationship, right, then you're gonna have a much better time exploring that, that, you know, that complexity, because you should feel that your, your woman is...... you know, honorable, and she's committed to you, and you don't have to worry about her doing anything inappropriate in a sexualized way with somebody else. But with you, she should be more open and adventurous and be able to be comfortable in her body and basically explicit. So (laughs) you ha- you have to really accommodate that growth and, and be growth, to have that growth mindset there, you know?

    8. CWChris Williamson49:01

       Isn't it strange that when we're talking about, uh, the female sexual archetypes, that being capable in bed is also lumbered with the same label of being promiscuous, or being a, a slut, or whatever the term is? Isn't that weird?

    9. TBDr Taylor Burrowes49:21

       Yeah. It, it, it's, it's, it's something that we don't really (sighs) feel comfortable talking about. And so it ... I mean, I'm not, I'm not like advocating for us to talk about sex with children. But (laughs) I think it is important for women to be able to talk about it with their partners, uh, if they're feeling shy, or if they're feeling uncomfortable or unsure about things and why, and for the man to be able to have that intimacy with her to make her feel comfortable, to make her feel, uh, that it's okay, and, you know, you have to be prepared because then you have to sorta still see her as a mother, if you have children-

    10. CWChris Williamson50:01

        (laughs)

    11. TBDr Taylor Burrowes50:01

        ... but then she's your hot, sexy lover behind closed doors or whatever.

    12. CWChris Williamson50:05

        There's a lot of roles, a lot of masks-

    13. TBDr Taylor Burrowes50:06

        So (laughs) yeah.

    14. CWChris Williamson50:06

        ... that, that women have got to play, haven't they? Like, the man kind of ... if we've got, again, typical masculine, feminine energies going from the ways that they mostly do, you've got the man ... and the man's kind of always doing that, right? Like, he's fixing the car, he's picking the kids up off the ground, he's going to work, and then he's coming home and he's having sex, whereas the mother needs to be a lot of, a lot of different roles, right? I, I think that's, that's maybe-

    15. TBDr Taylor Burrowes50:32

        Mm-hmm.

    16. CWChris Williamson50:32

        ... one of the issues where you've got ... that they, they need to spin a lot of plates.

    17. TBDr Taylor Burrowes50:36

        And if they're not, and they're repressing that, that's what happens, too, in the demise of a relationship is she will do that. She'll sort of see her husband as the protector/provider, and then she'll start fantasizing about the sexy gardener or whatever, right?

    18. CWChris Williamson50:53

        Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

    19. TBDr Taylor Burrowes50:54

        So if you don't address these issues early on, starting from when you're dating, then they're gonna create these cracks in your relationship that are going to create like the sort of risk for all those types of outcomes, and being able to ... I ... it's almost like you have to have that rhythm and harmony and be in sync with your partner so that you can kinda be really hyper, like, sexual with them, but then also talk about day-to-day logistics and (laughs) the boring stuff.

    20. CWChris Williamson51:23

        (laughs) Yeah, "Look, we've run out of, we've run out of milk, and we've run out of bread, and it's your turn to clean the toilet," like, yeah.

    21. TBDr Taylor Burrowes51:29

        "And come over here, sexy. I need some of that."

    22. CWChris Williamson51:32

        Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

    23. TBDr Taylor Burrowes51:32

        You know? Like you, you have to be able to-

    24. CWChris Williamson51:34

        Difficult dis- difficult discussion to have.

    25. TBDr Taylor Burrowes51:35

        (laughs) It, it shouldn't be, and, and, and it's, it's, it's fun. It's playful, and that's what keeps the spark alive. And so you don't want to drag on all of that sort of boring life stuff for too long without injecting a little bit of that pizazz and that sexiness in there. So y- you know, women, we need to feel encouraged to do that, um, and men have to learn how to sorta draw that out of us as well, because it's there. It's just a matter of feeling that comfort and, and that trust in order to, to do that.

    26. CWChris Williamson52:11

        How do you do that then as a, as a man encouraging a woman, or as a woman wanting to broach the subject of sex or sexual preferences or the way that their sex life's going? Uh, how, how do you do that? How do you get the courage to do that, and how do you start the discussion?

    27. TBDr Taylor Burrowes52:28

        Well, a man should feel, um, confident in his sexuality. I do feel that it's important for a man to have a little bit more ... h- he, you know, ne- neither party has to have a whole bunch of experience, but I do think that it's good for the man to be a little bit more sexually confident than the woman, so to keep that balance. And then for him to be able to project that throughout the relationship so that he's kind of ... it doesn't matter if he sorta comes outta nowhere with something sexualized. It ... and, and that maybe startles her a little bit, or she feels a little shy or something, but that's gonna create that sexual tension that, that's gonna really help there in that department. And so the man, uh, if he doesn't feel confident in that element with his sexuality, he needs to work on that. So that would mean that he needs to do that individual work first. Like, go to the gym. Get your fitness right. Get your health checked. Make sure your test- testosterone levels are, are healthy and you're eating well, you're sleeping well, and, you know, once you get all those things, it should, it should be revved up.

    28. CWChris Williamson53:29

        Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

    29. TBDr Taylor Burrowes53:30

        And if you ... you're also sort of encouraging your, your woman to be attractive and feminine and whatever it is, and hopefully you've already sort of established what you like, and she's that (laughs) and not something completely different.

    30. CWChris Williamson53:45

        It's doomed to fail if that way, yeah.
12. 1:02:23 – 1:03:20

    Wrap-up: where to find Taylor’s work and continue learning

    1. CWChris Williamson1:02:23

       So, uh, Dr. Burrows, people that have listened, if they might wanna get in touch or find out a little bit more about you, where can they go?

    2. TBDr Taylor Burrowes1:02:30

       My website is a great place to go, although I need to upgrade that a little bit. It's Dr. Burrows... drtaylorburrows.com. Sorry. And, uh, Twitter is a great place as well, so @taylorburrows.

    3. CWChris Williamson1:02:42

       Fantastic. Well, all of this will be linked in the show notes below. If you wanna go and check out, uh, Dr. Burrows running with Mr. Tate, uh-

    4. TBDr Taylor Burrowes1:02:50

       (laughs)

    5. CWChris Williamson1:02:50

       ... I'll make sure (laughs) that that's linked in the show notes below. Uh, but thank you so much for your time. I think we have really helped some people today.

    6. TBDr Taylor Burrowes1:02:57

       I hope so. But let me know. I would like to follow up if- if- if there's more to add. (laughs)

    7. CWChris Williamson1:03:01

       Sure thing. Thank you.

    8. NANarrator1:03:07

       (instrumental music)

Episode duration: 1:03:20