Modern WisdomA Physicist And A Boxer Walk Into A Bar | Ed Latimore
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150 min read · 29,552 words- 0:00 – 15:00
(wind blowing) Hi, friends. This…
- CWChris Williamson
(wind blowing) Hi, friends. This week, I'm sitting down with Ed Latimore. He's an ex-professional boxer, who's also a physicist. It's not the most typical combination of characteristics that you're going to find, but he's a very interesting guy. Ed and me spoke an awful lot about sobriety, alcohol's indoctrination into modern society, and how it negatively affects a lot of people's lives without them really even noticing it. We also move on to his strategies for being incredibly successful on Twitter, which will be very useful to those of you that are looking to grow your social media followings as we move into the new year. Other than that, I just found him an incredibly charming and very likable guy. He's obviously got a big message that he wants to get across, and it's nice to hear someone who's also singing from the same hymn sheet of sobriety as myself. As always, please share the episode with a friend if you think that they would enjoy it, and I wanted to give a special thank you to everyone that helped share the episode for Relationships 103. So we landed in the top 40 worldwide on the Apple podcast chart, which is ridiculous. (laughs) So, thank you very much. I really do appreciate it. Here is Mr. Ed Latimore.
- NANarrator
(instrumental music)
- CWChris Williamson
Ed Latimore, how are you today, sir?
- ELEd Latimore
I'm fantastic, man. How are you?
- CWChris Williamson
I'm very well, thank you. So, an ex-professional boxer, who's also a physicist. That's not, uh, that's not a combination that you hear every day.
- ELEd Latimore
(laughs) Uh, yeah, you know, these things just kind of happen, you know. I, I didn't, I didn't plan... I wish I could look back, like, and go, "Oh man, six years ago, this was the plan." But no, it really, it really just kind of grew and developed as a result of me taking and putting just one foot in front of the other. I didn't really know exactly where I was going, but I knew where I was, what I was leaving, if that makes sense.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah, I totally understand. So, I mean, you've got a, you've got a super interesting story. As you say, the, those two interests don't often mix. So would you be able to give the listeners some background to yourself and, and tell us your story, how you went from wherever you came from to where you are now?
- ELEd Latimore
Oh, yeah. No problem. So, so I'll give you the, the abridged version.
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- ELEd Latimore
And by abridged, I mean the version that starts roughly around age 27. 26, 27. I was, I was a pretty good amateur boxer, and as, as I started inching closer, I was like, "Okay, I need to make sure I got something else to fall back on." Because I started to really see, you know, the higher up you get and the closer you go to being professional, you get to see kind of what the professional ranks are like, business and athletics-wise. Plus, you know, and... Plus, I was fortunate in the position I was in, in that I was, I was getting sponsored and pla- paid pretty well, by, by some pretty, um, powerful people. So, I got to see that and I said, "All right, I need, I need a backup." And I kind of put that on the back burner for a little bit until I, I moved... I got cut from the program, and I moved back from where I... moved back to where I lived. I lived in Los Angeles in the United States, and then I moved back to Pittsburgh. And I was working for a while, and, and going out partying every night, and just really being a fool, and kind of ignoring the fact that I didn't have any real, like, way to make money other than just showing up and pimping out my time to a customer service rep, or as a customer service rep. So I woke up, I said, "You know what? I'm gonna join the army, and they're gonna pay for school," and that's what happened. And along the way, I spent, I spent 22 weeks away from everyone because of, you know, because of basic training and AIT. I joined the National Guard version of a, of the military, or the National Guard division. And when I, when I was there, I realized also that I had developed a problem with alcohol, because I wasn't around drinking for that, that long, and I got to really sit and think a- think alone. There wasn't a lot going on in my mind, just what was around me. And so I was thinking, "This is crazy." So I think I got out, I went out and celebrated one time, got totally shit-faced, and I said, "This is not how I want to go, and this is not how I want live to be. I mean, life to be." So, uh, I got sober then. I joined school. I, I wa- wha- when I enlisted, I was three and oh as a professional, and then I got out and I just kept going and kept going. And I was originally gonna become an engineer, and I took my first physics class, and I said, "I really wanna study this, not engineering." And that's, that's how it, how it happened. (laughs) You know, and I ha- I was fighting and going to school and in the military all at the same time, and, and looking back at it now, I have no idea how I got all the energy to do that.
- CWChris Williamson
I was gonna say, I mean, that, that's a, an awful lot to pack into a day.
- ELEd Latimore
Oh, th- you know, my days... uh, I remember, I mean, there was a period of time, and I'm really grateful because I have a, I have a great, great girlfriend, and she really helped out a lot. But there was a period of time, I mean, I'd... for, for at least a year maybe, I just... I mean, I, I mean, I know it happened obviously because I'm here, but it was all a blur, because I wa- you know, it was wake up, go practice, go to school, um, come back. Or get out of school, go practice some more, come back, work on the homework because physics is not some slouch subject. There was a lot of studying and homework I had to do. And then, uh, some weekends, I had to go do military things, so I didn't have that time either, and then I was exhausted all the way through. And then I'm still trying to be, like, a reasonable social person, you know. So, life is, li- life was just, just busy, man. (laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
Y- that's... Yeah, that's one way to put it. That's definitely busy.So was there a, was there a specific turning point where you realized, obviously you'd mentioned that a, a period of isolation away from perhaps access to alcohol and then whatever the influences were that were encouraging you to party as well, that that had highlighted that you, you maybe had a, a problem with substances. Was there a, an aha moment or was it a gradual oncoming and a gradual onset of realization?
- ELEd Latimore
Well, in terms of a specific aha moment, I mean, the, there were, there were quite a few. I mean, and if, and if you wanna talk like real aha moments, I had, I had a real aha moment like, like two years before I stopped drinking. It was just me being in denial for a long time. And what really did it, what made me finally quit, it wasn't like I was like, "Oh, man, I'm, I'm in rock bottom, I got to bounce up." It was having a goal. I said, "Okay, I am, I'm now in the United States military, so now I'm, I'm subject to their judicial system and the civilian judicial. I'm trying to finish my degree and go back to school so I can make sure I have a better way to live. My professional career is developing." And I had just, you know, really started dating my girlfriend who, who I saw a lot of potential in, and unfortunately, I was right. I mean, she's still around today and we're happier than ever. And all of these things, I looked at how far I could go with them, and I knew that the thing that would keep me back was really the only thing that had kept me from making moves on my life before, and that was alcohol. So it was, it was very easy for me to, it was very easy for me to s- for me to see that that had to go. And I was really fortunate too because I had all of that going on. I didn't really feel the, the effects of not drinking per se-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- ELEd Latimore
... because I, uh, you know, the biggest thing is, uh, I found talking to people, is developing a new life and a new identity independent of alcohol. I, I mean, obviously there are, there is a point towards you're physically dependent on a substance, but it's been my experience and my observation that a, that a lot of us, we, we fall into the lifestyle and then we miss that. We don't know how to define ourselves. We don't know how to deal with life without booze. And for, for a while, I mean, I, I think that was a thing that I thought about quite a bit, but I also said, "Okay, I got other tasks I've got to do." So I didn't really have ... There wasn't time to waste blowing off steam, you know, I was still in, in that whole like, I don't want... No. I mean, not, not really in that whole like new relationship phase, but, uh, but I was really committed to my girl so I wasn't trying to go out and, and, you know, chase women and anything like that.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- ELEd Latimore
And so all these things kind of kept me away. I had enough things pulling me in another direction that I wasn't ... that, that there was just, there was no way to fall back in for at least for the first t- t- two years, maybe three really. I'm coming up on year five this December, and, uh, or, or rather I guess in, in, under a month it'll be five years sober, and, uh, I know that I, I didn't ... I was fortunate. I mean, I, I did what I recommend everyone else do, but I did it on accident. (laughs) I filled my time with so many things different than alcohol and it forced me to develop a different life. So, so I would say my transition off was relatively smooth, but I know a lot of guys aren't like that because, because they miss, they miss a life, they miss a purpose, they miss a way to feel themselves, and I was, I was trying to build a new me and I was (laughs) you know, balls deep in, into a lot of-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- ELEd Latimore
... a lot of new stuff, man. Like ...
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah. I, I get that completely. I think an awful lot of people's reasons for drinking are they're habitual and idiosyncratic rather than dependent, at least in the beginning, and then as you've, as you've alluded to there, the dependency, the physiological requirement for your body to have the alcohol and to keep it going almost comes ... That's the second wave effect, which-
- ELEd Latimore
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... which oddly is, is even tougher to break. But then when you layer on top the fact that that is your life, this is the way that you operate, this is the friendship circles that you've got and the community and what you're used to doing and the places you go and the people you see, when that is all hooked around a substance which you're also dependent on, I mean, it's, uh, it's no real surprise that people struggle to get themselves clean from alcohol, I don't think.
- ELEd Latimore
Oh, for sure. And, and on top of that, man, we, we have a, we have a very alcohol ... uh, I, I wish I could just say alcohol-friendly, right, society. But we have ... I, I'm not full-blown conspiracy on this.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm. The tinfoil hats on out just yet.
- ELEd Latimore
(laughs) But, but we really have a culture that promotes excessive drinking for, for, for teenagers and young adults, and that's a really, uh, formative time because that's where everyone is building friendships and really trying to develop, um, the idea of who they are, and so when we intertwine such heavy drinking in that, in that phase, I mean, they make it part of, part of th- their life from 18 to 24 easily just by default. You have, you have to try to avoid it-
- CWChris Williamson
Mmm.
- ELEd Latimore
... at that point, and most people just aren't up for it. They want to socialize, they want to have a good time, but they don't realize how out of control it really can get.
- CWChris Williamson
I to- I couldn't, could not-
- ELEd Latimore
(laughs)
- 15:00 – 30:00
(laughs) Uh, you know,…
- CWChris Williamson
at one of the UK's biggest, uh, television stations cannot imagine a world in which someone would elect to not drink without having a dependence on the substance."
- ELEd Latimore
(laughs) Uh, you know, it's, it's like the old saying, right? Alcohol is the only drug where if you don't do it, people assume you have a problem.
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- ELEd Latimore
You know? And, and it, nowhere else does that ring true. And, and really sometimes I think about that, like, how bad, you know, was it? I mean, I think my behavior was, was just, was terrible. I do think that. But in, but in terms of like, I mean, I was never like, "Oh man, I got a drink today. It just really turned into a habit that was difficult to break and then I started to build a lifestyle around said habit." So for all intents and purposes, I mean, sure, maybe I didn't have to think about it, but I was putting myself in a position to not have to think about it, so I could just go drink whenever I want and drink as much as I want. I bring that up because I wonder at sometimes, you know, did, did I have a problem or was it just easier to say that to move, uh, into the next phase, right? To go, "Okay, let's, let's treat this like it's a real big deal and attack it as such, and you know, it'll get people to kind of look and go ..." You know? Because, because I find this out, when I say, I, well m- there, there are two things you can say, right? And people have a very different reaction though it says the exact same thing. You can say, "I'm not drinking tonight," or, "I'm sober," and people question the first one. They tend to give you a bit of a, of a, of a, of a nod of agreement on the second one. In fact, I usually get a congratulations, which is weird.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- ELEd Latimore
Um, but we, we really have this, this culture, man. Like, people don't have an alternative, because I- I really, there's no vested interest in showing people an alternative. I mean, I- I crunched numbers for a chapter that I'm not going to include in my book because I don't want people ... We live in a climate where you can say a lot of things and you'll see where I'm, what I'm, where I'm going with this.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- ELEd Latimore
And I didn't want that to be the focus of the book, that particular passage, because I know somebody will rip it to shreds and, and go after, go for the jugular on it. But I, but I crunched the numbers on, on alcohol abuse and its correlation with sexual assault, and alcohol abuse and the income that universities receive selling it at, at football games, wherever, right? And it's not, you know, on a- on a- on the latter, it's- it's not that great. Uh, I was really surprised by that actually, m- mostly because they go out of their way, uh, the law enforcement kind of gets involved. But on campus, it is very easy (laughs) to, to get, to get alcohol. And I know over there in the UK, you know, the drinking age is different and this is not an issue. But in, in the United States, many college towns and college campuses, there's a liquor store or a place to buy liquor on every corner. And you got to run, I- I've seen so many places shut down throughout the years right here in, in p- in, in Pittsburgh alone-... for, for serving under age and eventually getting caught, uh, 'cause there's just too much money involved. I mean, you, you don't wanna leave that alone. To the other effect, right, uh, uh, it was rough analysis, and I'm a, I'm a physics guy, so my math isn't, isn't bad, it b- it just wasn't as rigorous as, as, you know, I'd have to make it to hold up in-
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- ELEd Latimore
... an official publication. But, you know, I, I, I figured out that if you eliminated the role that alcohol ... if, if you eliminate alcohol from the, from the equation, right, that you would, you would effectively eliminate, and when I say effectively eliminate, reduce to, to below 90%, or below 10%, uh, the amount of sexual assaults on women in the ages of 18 to 24, the college-aged group. And no one wants to discuss that because the minute you say that, you get the counterargument, "You should just tell guys not to do this." You know, this, that, and the other. And I'm like, "Look, I don't think any guy is walking around thinking..." Or rather, I will say, if it, we were to break it down statistically, like 1 in 500,000, maybe 1 in 1,000,000 guys are walking around going, "You know what I'm gonna do? I'm gonna get her drunk and rape her." Like, I don't, I don't think guys are thinking that. What I think happens is that alcohol is supposed to cloud your judgment. We've got tons of studies that alcohol, um, ruins your ability to, to read and interpret cues that you would normally pick up when you're sober, and it ruins ... a- a- and likewise, it ruins your ability to, to put out the proper cues that you would when you were sober. And you get two people together in the sexual prime of their lives, and they're 18 and 24, and you mix in a bunch of alcohol, and that's just a, I mean, that's a powder keg. And, uh, and we see these things happen year after year after year. It's to the point whenever I hear of an assault on campus, my first thought is, "Well, how much were they drinking?" Right?
- CWChris Williamson
I wonder how much, I wonder how much alcohol they had in their system, yeah, absolutely.
- ELEd Latimore
Yeah, a- and then, and then it always comes out that it was at some kind of party or some wow. And you can't ... It's crazy that you can't talk about that, and that would make a difference. Like, if these people were really concerned about the safety of their children, the safety of their daughters, they would be all over that issue. But we, we were so trained to not talk about ... or rather, we're so trained to place a victim and place a blame on a thing that we can, we can, um, assign, like, a gender in these wards ...
- CWChris Williamson
But you can-
- ELEd Latimore
...
- CWChris Williamson
... you can personify a person a lot easier than, than you can personify alcohol. And I think-
- ELEd Latimore
Right.
- CWChris Williamson
... what people are looking for in these situations is they're looking for the archetypal roles, the villain, the maiden, you know, the redeemed, et cetera, et cetera. They, they want to be able to personify ... I recently went to go and see Jordan Peterson live, and he spoke about this personification of objects within culture, and, you know, why does Thomas the Tank Engine have a face? Like, he's a tank engine. He doesn't need a face.
- ELEd Latimore
Right. (laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
He doesn't need a face, doesn't need a name, but he, he kinda does because we need to know what sort of a person Thomas is, despite him obviously not being a fucking person.
- ELEd Latimore
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
Like, he's a, he's a, he's a tank engine. But the same with this. We need ... I- i- in news stories, th- there needs to be this personification, and you're, you're totally right with what you say, that I think the main problem is that we can't ... it's the wood hiding amongst the trees with regards to this alcohol problem.
- ELEd Latimore
Right. You know, it's funny that the, the, the title of the chapter was The Drunk Elephant in the Living Room.
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- ELEd Latimore
And, and, and I, I decided that I don't wanna put it in because I don't want people to miss the other things that I'm trying to talk about and offer to people, you know, a way to look at their behavior and, you know, get through the emotional, the emotional distress, I think, of sobriety because that was very surprising.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah, that is, I mean, that's, it, it's harrowing that that's the case, but we've all been there. We've all been in a situation where we've had too much to drink, and our judgment has been skewed, and we've made a mistake. Now, very few of those situations will result in a sexual assault, but, you know, it, it could have occurred. You've maybe lost your temper at a kebab guy, or you've walked out of McDonald's without paying, or you've stepped out into the road when you weren't looking, but there wasn't any cars coming, or maybe there was some cars coming.
- ELEd Latimore
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Do you know what I mean? Like, all of these situations are lapses in judgment, and the reason that they occur and that you continue to drink to excess is because for every drink that you have, it makes not having a subsequent drink more difficult. Alcohol-
- ELEd Latimore
Yup. (laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
... alcohol is a inhibition reduction echo chamber, as far as I'm concerned, like a, a, a Bayesian update in gone wrong, if that makes sense.
- ELEd Latimore
(laughs) Nah, nah, t- dude, that's, uh, that's brilliant. No, I, I-
- 30:00 – 45:00
Mm-hmm. …
- ELEd Latimore
we- we already know what happened. You know, this country ha- ha- probably ran one of the best natural experiments in history, destructive, but one of the best. We know what happens when you ban alcohol. We- we witnessed that. We- we had the 18th Amendment and then the 21st Amendment. It was that bad that it got put into an amendment.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- ELEd Latimore
You know, a- and it's the only reason why we know people like Al Capone are ... The only reason. So we're not gonna ban it, and there's too much money involved, and it's going to continue to suburb culture as a result, so the best thing you can do is ... You know, I-I'm a big believer in the gen- top down, you know, from generation and, and working with your kids and showing 'em a good way to live. (smacks lips) I have a, I have a unique perspective because, you know, I, I grew up around a mom that did drink a lot, and the dad, he wa- he didn't drink that much. But I actually have no idea how much he drank, you know, I wasn't around him that much. (sniffs) But for, but alcohol was very much a part of my life growing up, um, but not so much in my girlfriend's life, and it's so interesting to see little things, like, she'll, she'll have a glass of wine, and when I say she'll have a glass of wine, I mean, she'll have a few sips from a glass and then it'll sit there until I clean it. And I'm like, and I look at it and go, "How can you not finish that? That's weird."
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- ELEd Latimore
And it (laughs) it's, it's, it's because, you know, i- she grew up in a household where, where they, they promoted different values, and there wasn't this kind of consumerist excessiveness, and certainly there wasn't much alcohol. I mean, wha- what it's gonna come down to if we're gonna do anything about this situation, (sniffs) and most people, and first people gotta see is the situation, which I don't think they ever, they're ever going to do-
- CWChris Williamson
100%.
- ELEd Latimore
... en, en masse, but if, but if they did see it, then the only solution, the one that will not result in a large, severe negative externality (laughs) and reaction like, like the days of Prohibition, is that it's gotta start in the f- at home with the families, man. It's gotta start (sniffs) with, with how you, how you raise your children and what you show them and how you develop their, their abilities and discipline and confidence, all those good things. (sniffs) But, but, you know, we're, we're, we're horrible. We live, we, that's not, that's not gonna happen. It's probably... I haven't been to a college party in (laughs) man, oh, shit, man, since I was maybe 26, I don't know, 26, 25? So I don't, I don't know how bad or how crazy the campus is getting. All I, all I see are the extreme news stories when the, when they hit, and, you know, that's like the airplane crash effect, you know, or availability heuristic, I think is the official name.
- CWChris Williamson
Yep.
- ELEd Latimore
So, so I don't, I don't know how, how bad it really is. But if I had to take an educated guess based on what I can see and the, and the ears I have kind of at that level, uh, you know, it's, it's certainly no better than when, when I was in my 20s, prob- easily worse, and now, now with social media, man, everybody wants to be a star, everyone wants to tag a brand, everyone wants to show off and, you know, you w- when we were, I don't know, how, how old are you?
- CWChris Williamson
I'm 30.
- ELEd Latimore
Okay, so, so you're, you're about... I'm 33, so you're, you're roughly the same era. You know, when we were assholes, we were assholes, and then you could forget about it unless you were a really, really big one, like you went to jail or something.
- CWChris Williamson
Yep.
- ELEd Latimore
N- uh, you know, and then later on, you know, kind of on the... Y- you probably were a little more in this than I was. Uh, y- you know, I sent my fair share of drunk texts, but that was later into my drinking, like, you know, 24, 25. Now, though, man, you a fool, man. It is, it's out there. And, and not only about, but it's not treated the way it should be treated, you know?
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- ELEd Latimore
People don't... But then no one looks at themself next morning and go, "Oh my God, I've gotta stop." They go, "Holy shit," like you said, "That was awesome." How are-
- CWChris Williamson
I mean, the, the, the, the thing that-
- ELEd Latimore
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
... everyone needs to remember is that you are only ever one email away from TMZ or WorldStarHipHop.
- ELEd Latimore
Yup.
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs) Like, that's it, one email, one email and a couple of million people see what you got up to last night. Um, so you, you're totally right. The, the external accountability and the stakes have been raised an awful lot more because of the level of connectivity that, that the world's got, that, you know, uh, what you or me would have had to have done 12 years ago to have made the news (laughs) -
- ELEd Latimore
Yeah. (laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
... like, that would have reached people. Like, it would have had to have been a Armageddon level drinking exp- uh, escapade. But now, you know, you can reach an equal number of people that probably the mainstream news re- reaches with a viral video. Like, we've all got-
- ELEd Latimore
Right.
- CWChris Williamson
... a frie- we've all got a friend that's m- that randomly their cat did something funny and got its head stuck in a piece of bread, or do you know what I mean? (laughs) Like, uh, the fact that you can reach that volume of people is, obviously it's a platform, but it, on the flip side of that, it's also a real, it's also a real concern. So on the topic of the platform of social media, we're going to move on to your thoughts on Twitter, which I'm super excited to get into. But I've got one thing that I wanted to bookend the conversation with, with alcohol about. Um, actually two things. Firstly, if someone was considering taking a stint of sobriety to see how they got on, have you got any first step tips that you would give them to aid them moving through that, that sort of initial period, that transition phase?
- ELEd Latimore
Man, you, two things. One, you're gonna have to just spend time with different people. I've gone back and forth about this in my mind over, over the past five years, and ultimately, if, if you're serious and you want to try a different lifestyle, you, you're not going to get support from the people who are still in said lifestyle. It's just, it's not gonna happen. People aren't, aren't designed that way. Your existence and your action will force a type of, uh, reflection that people aren't ready to make. I think the biggest mistake I made when getting sober was asking my friends what they thought. Of course, they're drinking with me. They're not going to admit they were all... I mean, very rarely, they're going, "You know what? We, we all are fucked up."
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- ELEd Latimore
"We need to..." Like, no, that not happening, no, right? So if, if you want to get sober, man, if you want to try it out, you're gonna have to just accept that your friend group for a moment ain't your friends. Go do something else, make a new group, have some fun, explore yourself, and that leads me to the other thing. You gotta immerse yourself in, in a, in a task that demands energy, because it's very easy to say, "I worked very hard today. I'm gonna go out..."... and have a drink. I actually did have that thought quite a bit, (sniffs) but when you're exhausted (laughs) from working on stuff, plus, you know, you got p- promises and commitments, but really, when you're exhausted, even if you tell yourself it, b- when you tell yourself it's temporary, it's very easy to just go, "Okay, it w- it's over." Right? Well, I mean, I didn't give myself a temporary out, it was just, "All right, I'm done." But if someone wanted to try and see how it would affect and how they went with it, uh, they, they need to be busy. They, they really need to be busy, otherwise, it's going to be very easy to say, "Oh, I, I did really well today, I'm going to celebrate with a drink."
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah. Or, "I had a bad day and-
- ELEd Latimore
Right.
- CWChris Williamson
... I'm gonna, I'm gonna use it as a, as an anesthetic, or as a, as a pill, or as the, the equivalent of, of something to dampen that mood down," I suppose. Which again, the, I, I, I like the idea of having, having a newfound purpose and something to, to put that energy into, that it's a reason to get yourself up in the morning, and it's also a reason to put yourself to bed at night without having had a drink. If you know that you got to get up and you got to perform the next day, in whatever, whatever value it is that you've chosen is worthwhile, if you know that you need to do that, then you don't want a drink the night before, because you want to be fresh, because you're excited about performing to y- the best of your ability the next day.
- 45:00 – 1:00:00
(laughs) …
- ELEd Latimore
"Man, I wasted so much time." I learned some lessons, but mostly wasted time, you know?
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- ELEd Latimore
Let's- let's write down, let's get on, let's get on with it and get on, you know, and- and be productive, do some cool stuff. (laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah, I think, I think what's t- t- to kind of finish on that, what's super interesting is that you've talked about the fact that being sober makes you a more interesting person, which is so counter to what most people would- would perceive, um...
- ELEd Latimore
Oh, yeah, 'cause I'm- I'm- I'm... (laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
I think on your... On your- on your blog at the moment, haven't you got something about like how to be fun whilst being sober?
- ELEd Latimore
Yeah. Oh, yeah, for sure. I mean, uh, it's to the point, like, I'm... I just... I have just such a- a good, strong, extroverted personality, um, there- there's no other way around it. I'm just- I'm just, uh, a already outgoing and already interested in- in life, so I'm not... I don't- I don't need it, you know? I don't need it anymore, and (laughs) so I try to build a life independent of it.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- ELEd Latimore
And- and I have a great time with it.
- CWChris Williamson
Well, you know, i- i- it's nice to see that someone who, you know, is a- a- accomplished and is getting things done. I think one of the main things that we need to do if we are going to kind of open up people's eyes to the topic of sobriety for, um, for, you know, elective sobriety, almost, we could call it, as opposed to kind of necessitate sobriety, one of the things that we're gonna have to do is have people who are in... You know, who are aspirational role models. You don't want to see some guy who's hooked up to a machine with jaundice and fucking liver failure, and go, "Oh, look at this guy. He went sober and it saved his life." And you're like, "Right, yeah, but first off, I don't want to be in the situation that that guy was in." Uh, sorry, "Is in, and secondly, I'm not in the situation that he was in." So it- it's just-
- ELEd Latimore
Right.
- CWChris Williamson
... there's too much of a- of a gap for people to leap there, cognitively. So, you know, hopefully- hopefully this will have opened some people's eyes. I want to move on to Twitter and your- your relationship with Twitter. Would you be able to explain to the-
- ELEd Latimore
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
... explain to the listeners what your- what your thoughts are on Twitter, please?
- ELEd Latimore
Oh, man, I think- I think Twitter is like magic. I don't- I don't know. I have this- this thing I've been thinking about lately, which is the- the- the world we live in today is so far advanced that you couldn't even, if you were a writer in like say 1900, you couldn't even imagine what it... Like th- your- your science fiction wouldn't create this because you couldn't see this at all, even in your imagination. It's just so crazy. And Twitter is one of those things, man, you know, I say a thing, I put a thought out, and people share the thought. (laughs) Like ... And then those people share the thought. And you can spread a message around the world in like... I mean, in- in- in- in under- in under 30 minutes, I mean, it's faster than any, uh, method of propagation because of the way they set it up. It- it- it's just one giant, growing, self-sustaining, Metcalfe law-abiding network, and it is just cool. I love it. I've spent a lot of time and energy, uh, figuring out how to maximize the use of this platform, and then I think- I think it shows, um, in the follower count and the engagement, and- and now the living I make off of it, I- I think it's- it's just the best thing ever. And, you know, if Twitter goes away, somebody will come up with- with something because this idea...... of, of sharing across barriers. Like you don't have to follow me to see what I say, but if you like what I say, you can follow me. No other platform, uh, is structured that way. Th- j- just, just isn't. I mean, I write about this. I got a new book c- coming out a- and a set up, and a course along with it afterwards w- where I talk about this exact thing that makes Twitter so powerful, that you can, you can share ideas. No other platform lets you do that. And in sharing ideas, you can motivate, you can inspire, you can draw people in, you can antagonize, you can do whatever you want.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm, yeah. (laughs)
- ELEd Latimore
I mean, well-
- CWChris Williamson
That's-
- ELEd Latimore
... you can't do whatever you want, I mean, you know, 'cause they, they ban-
- CWChris Williamson
They've got terms of service, yeah, exactly.
- ELEd Latimore
Right. But, but, my, my thought about the terms of service, I mean, people complain about, you know, sensitivity and, and you can't say this 'cause of censorship. And, and that's never been an issue for me because that's not why I would wanna use something this powerful. You know what I mean? Like, th- th- that's really how I feel about it. I'm not, I'm not saying people should be restricted from saying whatever they want to. What I'm saying is that, why would I spend my time on this platform just, you know, shit posting and trolling? The, i- i- it's so much more than that. If I wanted to do that, I'd take that over to Facebook and bother some people, you know? Here, we, we have... I, I'm sitting here and probably the reason you know about me and so many other people know about me is because I have thoughts and I understand how to craft them and p- and I just put them out. I press a button and then I, I can amass a group of people around me. I, I'm not interested in violating the terms of service because that's not, that's not my shtick. I'm not a shock doctor, you know? I'm n- I'm not... I don't talk about pol... I don't even talk about politics, man. I hate politics (laughs) personally.
- CWChris Williamson
Yep.
- ELEd Latimore
It's just, it's, it's just a very, it's a very powerful tool. It's like, it's like the way I see the Twitter CEO, uh, you know, and these, these bans and putting these words in, uh, I'm just... This, this is not my, my im... Like I don't think Jack is doing a good or bad job. I think time will tell. But what I do know is that this is a very powerful technology, m- probably more powerful than most people realize, because behind any, any machine are people, and this is the ultimate tool for connecting and finding people. So what I, what I think he's doing is, is trying to be a guardian of, of the new magic before we abuse it and like lose it.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- ELEd Latimore
That, that's the analogy I would go with. Now whether he's making the best decisions on, you know, o- on guardian it is, is a different debate. But I think that's how he sees his role. Maybe not consciously, but he certainly understands that he is the steward of, of a thing that can, I mean, and will change, change the world. I mean, it's changed individual lives, which means as, as a collective, it- it's gonna change large groups and change the world.
- CWChris Williamson
Absolutely. So you touched on that you'd come up with some effective strategies for Twitter. Would you be able to lay out some key elements of that framework for the listeners who might want to, uh, think about growing their Twitter following or look at some principles on what's most effective?
- ELEd Latimore
Uh, right. Above all things, man, you have to give people a reason to want to see your words. Uh, uh, but like, because at the end of the day that, that's all it means. Like right now I'm looking at my screen, that, that 62.1K underneath my followers, all that means that I've given those people, that many people a reason to follow and listen to me. I've provided value. I've given them something that helps them, something that they didn't know, something that helps them, makes them feel a certain way or think a certain way that they find favorable. At the end of the day if you want to grow, you have to give value. And, and I can't stress that enough. Uh, many people when they start out on this platform, they don't, they don't realize that, that at the... that if you, if you want... It, it's like, it's like real life. If you want people to follow you, you give 'em a reason, you know, why should you be my leader? I mean, wh- wha- that's what I mean, they, they call it followers, right? But (laughs) -
- CWChris Williamson
That's a good point. That's a good point.
- ELEd Latimore
... if we wanna let, if we wanna look at that, right, you know, w- why should we let you lead us? What, what do, what have you done? What do, what do you say? What have you shown to be, uh, that separates you from the rest of these other jokers out here who are putting up pictures of women and, and cats and trolling-
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- 1:00:00 – 1:15:00
Mm-hmm. …
- ELEd Latimore
occasionally when, when, when a buddy of mine drops something in it 'cause his... it would change my life. I used it, it changed my life.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- ELEd Latimore
So yeah. Uh, but, but, but yeah, uh, aside from all the, the, the technical stuff which we could get into, uh, that I am gonna put together in, in my upcoming book and cou-... and course that I'm working on about, you know, how to write and how to structure things and different ways to weight the words and take your experience and transmute it to a, to a, um, highly engaging tweet. Uh, at the end of it all, if you do nothing else, you can make a lot of mistakes in your formatting, your word balance, your word choice, but if you deliver value, you'll grow. You may not grow as fast as if you... if you make the tweet perfectly balanced or avoid repetition of words, but you will grow.
- CWChris Williamson
... I think that's, I think that's a good way to put it, that focusing on the small stuff, or sweating the small stuff is a surefire way to actually not get yourself off the ground. Um, I like what you said about not compromising and not doing, um, not choosing to affiliate yourself with products that you don't fully believe in. That's the same for myself. We have a, a series that all of the listeners will know, which is Life Hacks, and as a part of that, that is w- we're not affiliated with anything that we ever feature, and we're just completely transparent about websites or apps or approaches or techniques or products that assist us in our life. And it's stuff that we actually use, and sometimes we'll use it for a bit and then get rid of it and, you know, but it's, it's genuinely, it's a manifestation of a solution to a problem that we have found. And I think Farnam Street, which is one of my favorite blogs, the-
- ELEd Latimore
Oh, yeah, I love that blog.
- CWChris Williamson
Shane Parrish is a absolute animal. Any of the listeners who want something to read-
- ELEd Latimore
Yeah, he actually had me on the... uh, he flew down from Toronto one day, uh, recorded, and then flew back. I was on, uh-
- CWChris Williamson
Oh, man, he's a monster. So are you, is that out on the Knowledge Project yet?
- ELEd Latimore
Uh, yeah, yeah. It's be- it's been out for, for a, a little while, about a, maybe a little, about a year, maybe? A little less.
- CWChris Williamson
Fantastic. Well, I'll, uh, I'll make sure that I put the link to that in the show notes below as well, but there's a, uh, there's a really cool, um, Medium article by Herbert Liu which says, "Why Farnam Street Optimizes for Loyalty, Not Page Views," and that playing the long game, which Shane talks about so much, and focusing on adding as much value as he can, i- it's, it's such a undervalued way of getting to the top, because everyone wants... The same as, you know, y- you were talking before we, before we came on air about how you'd just gone to the gym and you'd hit the heavy bag or whatever. You know, people don't want to have to go to the gym and hit the heavy bag. They want the five-minute abs workout at home-
- ELEd Latimore
Right.
- CWChris Williamson
... and the, and the pill that gives it to them, and in exactly the same way as this is why I think one of the, uh, one of the major attractions of reality TV at the moment is that it gets people from no platform to huge platform without actually having to cultivate any added-
- ELEd Latimore
Right.
- CWChris Williamson
... any added value in the interim. You don't have to craft a character or prove any sort of worth. All you have to do is exist, and as a byproduct of that-
- ELEd Latimore
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
... people, people are interested in your existence. So, you know, uh, operating and optimizing for loyalty and not page views is a surefire way to get yourself a, a, a tribe that will follow you. Um, I think what's cool now is we're starting to see things stratify out into different sorts of media. So, you know, if you're good on video, then you go to YouTube, and if you're good with words and short form bits of kind of maxims and aphorisms and, and that sort of stuff, then you go to Twitter, and if, you know, if you're good with imagery or you're, you know, a good-looking guy or a good-looking girl or you have the, uh, nice mise en scene, or however it is, then you go to Instagram.
- ELEd Latimore
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
You understand what I mean? So these-
- ELEd Latimore
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... these mediums, these mediums are now you don't have to be a jack of all trades. You know, most people have got one of each, or at least two of the three big, big platforms, but if you're very, very successful, if you're a good, if you're good with words and you can articulate yourself well, then, you know, go on Twitter or, or start a podcast. If you find that you're particularly good, if you know, if you're ridiculously really, really, really good-looking, then (laughs) you can go on Instagram or you can, if you're a photographer, you go on Instagram, et cetera, et cetera. So it's nice that you've found yourself, you've crafted a, um, an arena for you where you're surrounded by people. I mean, you know, Shane Parrish, like, if you follow Shane Parrish, uh, Nicholas Taleb, Jordan Peterson, Sam Harris-
- ELEd Latimore
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... Shapiro, um, you know, if you follow a group of guys like them and yourself, the volume of wisdom that you're getting hit with, it's in the fucking PSIs, isn't it? It's like a 16-bar pressure of wisdom that's just coming at you on a daily basis, and you don't need to look online. You know, if you had Twitter and Medium, I reckon that you'd probably be able to grow yourself into an absolute monster of an intellect in no time at all.
- ELEd Latimore
Oh, absolutely, because they add value.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- ELEd Latimore
They're always adding value, so there, there's never ... th- th- there's never a dull moment between, you know, you can get on... I, I, I mean, I really love Farnam Street as a result of, uh, seeing Taleb on, on Twitter. I picked up his books, you know, and I'm, I'm loving his books. So, so what, that's what it is, I mean, but, but, but think about this. This is what I always point out too. Um, one of the things that really helps you grow is life experience, and, you know, the, the more you've experienced outside of Twitter, you know, the more likely people are going to follow you. It's, it's like, you know, you, you can't get famous from social media. That's, that's not ... we, we don't want to play that game, right? What we wanna do is we want to go and develop ourselves and, and have a lot built up and a lot to say, and then come and deliver valuable perspectives on it, or just in life in general. I mean, I, I know I'm the, the beneficiary of the halo effect, you know, people go, "Oh, this guy, he box professionally and he got a physics degree and he wrote some books. Oh, even, we, we gotta follow him." And, and it just, it looks, it, it looks better. I mean, look at, at the very least, you know, (laughs) people aren't gonna go, "What are you doing here? Why? Who cares about you?" It's like, "Well, I'm here because I earned it. Why are you here?"
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah. I, I couldn't agree more. I think what's cool there is saying that, saying that you shouldn't aim to get famous through social media, that the fame should come as a byproduct is exactly the same as saying your body should not be the purpose of your training routine, it should be a byproduct of it. You know-
- ELEd Latimore
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... you should train hard, you should do what you like to do, and you should put in the time and the effort, and then when you look in the mirror, it shows. If you reverse it and, and you aim for the top of the mountain and you get lost along the way, um, there's this cool, uh, uh, really cool quote that, um, uh, you, you talked there about why should people listen to you, um, and-... everyone wants to be able to expedite their route to success, right? They want to be able to, "Where's the shortcut? What's the, the, you know, Ed Latimore's five quick tips for, you know, Twitter success?" They don't want to hear that you need to tweet... Am- am I right in thinking you-
- ELEd Latimore
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
... had like... You've had... You do like 1,000 tweets a month, something like that?
Episode duration: 1:15:00
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