A Psychologist's Tips To Find Meaning - Dr Clay Routledge | Modern Wisdom Podcast 366

1. 0:00 – 0:38

   Intro

   1. CRClay Routledge0:00

      ... what we're referring to as existential agency. Existential agency, we define it as people's belief in their own ability to guide the meaning in their life, to have a meaningful life. (wind blows)

   2. CWChris Williamson0:15

      Clay Routledge, welcome to the show.

   3. CRClay Routledge0:17

      Thanks for having me. It's great to be here.

   4. CWChris Williamson0:19

      For the people who aren't familiar with you and your work, how do you describe what you study?

   5. CRClay Routledge0:25

      Well, I'm what's called an existential psychologist, and that probably sounds like, "What?" (laughs) "What's he talking about?" Um, so obviously, I'm a psychologist. I'm not a clinical psychologist. I don't see, I don't see clients or

2. 0:38 – 4:47

   Existential Psychology

   1. CRClay Routledge0:38

      patients. Uh, I'm a, I'm a psychological scientist, so I do... I, I mainly do research. And so the existential part is... What I'm really interested in is the uniquely human capacity to ask big questions. Why am I here? What purpose do I serve? Does, you know, does my life have any meaning that transcends my mortality? Um, what does it mean to be free? You know, the idea of free will, agency, um, curiosity, creativity. You, you know, there's just all these things that we can do because we're intelligent and we're, you know, we're clever, we're imaginative. And so everything kind of wrapped around that idea of the big questions is what an existential psychologist is interested in. And then, of course, more... You know, that sounds very, very philosophical. So more concretely and practically, how does that connect to human wellbeing? Like, how do my concerns about meaning and life influence my goals, my ability to be mentally and physically healthy, my relationships, um, the types of beliefs I have? You, you know, so everything in life that, that, you know, that's really important to navigating, you know, the world and society and, and families and cultures. Um, how does that connect to these deeper questions of, of meaning and agency? That's pretty much in... You know, in a nutshell what I'm into.

   2. CWChris Williamson2:00

      Why does any other psychologist not study that? 'Cause that sounds-

   3. CRClay Routledge2:04

      (laughs)

   4. CWChris Williamson2:05

      ... absolutely fascinating.

   5. CRClay Routledge2:08

      Yeah. Well, I mean, I think a lot of it is... It does... It sounds intimidating in some ways because it's so phil-... It, it sounds so abstract. And so one of the challenges we have as, you know, scientists is trying to, you know, trying to connect these broad ideas to empirically testable hypotheses. And so I think a lot of, a lot of psychologists, they're just, you know, they're just understandably interested in very specific things, like depression or schizophrenia or, you know, those, those types of issues. Um, and, you know, those are... O- obviously, those are important int-... Very, very important issues. But I'm into these kind of broader questions, which I think have implications for those i-... For those issues, um, so... But, but I do think a lot of people are like, "Well, you know, that's too fuzzy." Um, and it's... It, it, it's hard... It, it's hard to get at. Uh, but it is... I, I think it's a growing area, uh, a growing area of interest. I think there are more and more people that are interested in psychology, and I think a lot of that is driven by an increased awareness that clearly humans want their lives to be meaningful. Um, we're not machines, and we're not just... We're not just driven by money or practical security concerns, you know, like being... Having shelter, um, having, you know, having food. Um, we want something... We want something more than that. I mean, uh, the... um, the simplest, you know, example is like you could think about what if you were like, you know, filthy rich? You had everything you wanted. Like, you had a mansion, you had a yacht, you had, you know, um, the access to the best medicine. Um, that wouldn't... Y- you know, my guess is that would be pretty cool, (laughs) but that wouldn't necessarily, um, be totally fulfilling. I mean, m-... You, you might be bored, right? You might be like, "Well, what's the point of all this?" And so I think even if you control for all these kind of basic security needs that people have, to feed themselves, to feel safe, we long for something, for something more, to have an impact on the world. And so I think more and more people are realizing, uh, realizing that's, that's actually a really important driver of human behavior.

   6. CWChris Williamson4:28

      What do you mean by meaning? How do you define it?

   7. CRClay Routledge4:32

      Yeah. So that's a really good question because I... Th- there are different ways to define it. I mean, I think the, the simplest way to define it is, people's subjective sense that they, they matter, that their lives have value, that they... You know, people... That they're significant, that they make

3. 4:47 – 17:43

   What is Meaning?

   1. CRClay Routledge4:47

      a difference, so I think that element of significance and mattering. Um, but when you get into... You know, deeper into, into the research, you can actually think about meaning at multiple levels. And so you can think about meaning at the level I just talked about, which is pretty high level. Like, "I want to matter in the world. I want to make a difference. I want to be significant." But you can actually think about it and study it at a much lower cognitive level, and what I mean by that is... Part of meaning is just perceptual patterns, which is, you know, the visual world making sense. And so if you go into like a, a modern art museum and you see like this crazy modern art... You know, this absurd art, right? And it doesn't... The whole point of a lot of it is to be like, "This is not what you normally expect." These patterns violate your expectations. And there's something that is kind of cool about it, but also is a little bit jarring, right? It's a little bit like, "Well, those things aren't supposed to go together." (laughs) Um, and so, you know... A- and so that e-... That kind of effect it has on us is, is in part because our brain is about pattern... Making sense of the world, about patterns, and we need patterns to... You know, if you didn't get up every day with a certain level of, um, consistency that you know what's gonna happen, right? That you know roughly what the weather's gonna be like, how other people are gonna behave, then your life would be chaotic and you'd be stressed out and very, very anxious.Um, so we're constantly trying to make sense of our reality. And so if you think about that low level of, of meaning, of just the world making sense, you can even think of meaning as not even uniquely human, right? You can say, "Well, my dog has expectations (laughs) for, for the world making sense." Right? My dog thinks that... In fact, my dog, you know, f- magically knows that it's 6:15 in the morning and it's time to get me up (laughs) regardless of what I want. Um, and so um, we're not the only organisms that need to make sense of our environment. But what happens is the more intelligent the organism is, the more high-level that becomes. So we don't... As humans, because we can self-reflect, we can think about our own existence and what that means, and we can ask these big questions I was talking about. We don't wanna just make sense of our physical environment or the world around us, we wanna make sense of our own lives. And so it's that ability to turn inward, to, to introspect about our existence, that makes meaning this higher level issue of "I don't just want the world to make sense, I want my life to make sense."

   2. CWChris Williamson7:18

      Is that what you mean when you talk about cohesive meta-narratives?

   3. CRClay Routledge7:23

      Yeah. Yeah. So I mean, if, if you... So you can think about the pattern perception thing, right? You can think about just the simpleness of like, I want the physical environment to make sense. But we live in a, a symbolic world as humans, right? Because we're smart. And so it's not just that I want to be able to walk around my city and there be some order (laughs) to it physically, to the physical environment. I want there to s- be some order to the rules, the, the norms, the, you know, the customs, the traditions that we have. And so there's this, there is this cultural narrative or what we often refer to as cultural worldviews of that we think that order our, o- order our lives and help us say, "Well, this is what we think of as good behavior. This is what we think of things we should aspire to do, things we should avoid doing." And so these, these cultural narratives are, are, are very important and they, they really, um, add the parameters, you know, they add the structure, the scaffolding for our personal meaning system. Because how do I know what's meaningful or what it means to make a meaningful contribution to society? Well, a lot of that is derived from the, the cultural worldview that I, um, that I've adopted and the, the cultural world that I live in.

   4. CWChris Williamson8:32

      What's the biological driver behind our search for meaning? 'Cause it... Like if lacking meaning can be a huge cause of suffering to people, it doesn't seem very adaptive that an animal requires all this extra work to just be able to flourish. As you said, like, the solution to your dog's problem is to make sure that he's up and out for his walk at 6:15.

   5. CRClay Routledge8:52

      Yeah. (laughs)

   6. CWChris Williamson8:52

      The solution to giving a human meaning is this huge question that's been wrestled with for millennia.

   7. CRClay Routledge8:58

      Yeah. So there's com- there's a lot of debate, (laughs) uh, a lot of debate around, around that question. So there w- there is one theory, and I, I, I've done work in this theory. I don't, I don't do as much now as I used to, but there is this theory called terror management theory. And the argument, according to terror management theory, is that humans are uniquely aware of, of our mortality, right? We're, we're the one species that fully understands what it means to live and die. And so as a result of our intelligence, I can look forward into the future and that can be cool, 'cause I can imagine all sorts of great things that might happen, but that also renders me aware of the fact that no matter what I do, no matter how often I go to the gym, no matter how many, you know, healthy shakes I drink and go to the doctor and do everything I'm supposed to do, I s- I'm still gonna die, right? And so according to terror management theory is that unique awareness of, um, that just kind of comes with being intelligent, (laughs) right? It's not... Uh, you know, th- it doesn't, it's not for like a specific reason, it just comes with being intelligent that we're aware of our mortality, um, um, causes a unique anxiety for humans. Like every organism faces a certain level of anxiety related to the threat of death. But for other organisms, like a rabbit, like it has this fight or flight response. There's a predator and it's like, it's got a very brief m- moment of terror and then the threat goes away and it can go back to business. But humans, we can think about that, we can ruminate about that, and we understand that that threat is coming someday for us no matter what. And so according to terror management theory, this, this unique intelligence, um, comes with a great deal of anxiety. In other words, like with great int- intelligence comes the, the potential for great anxiety. And so according to that particular theory, what meaning really s- the function meaning serves is to help regulate that anxiety. So the response to, um, understanding that no matter what I do to take care of myself, I can't avoid death forever, is to feel like, well, but part of me doesn't die. I'm not just a physical organism, I'm part of something bigger than myself. And obviously you can think about that quite literally in terms of religious traditions that offer some hope for life after death. But even if you reject that, you can think of immortality as being symbolic, right? You can think that, well, as an individual organism, yeah, I'm gonna die, but I'm not just an individual organism. I'm part of a family. I'm part of a nation. I'm part of a culture. Um, and to the extent that I can make contributions to that, yeah, I'm not real excited about dying (laughs) but I'm not just totally snuffed out. Like part of me continues, continues on. So, you know, that, that's one, that's one theoretical perspective that meaning is a response to the awareness of inevitable mortality. There's other theories that, that take that idea and say, "Okay, well that's... Mortality i- is one threat, but there are other existential threats." It's not just like, I'm worried about dying, but I'm... You know, there s- there's threats like worried about being...... socially ostracized? Like what if n- what if I don't have anyone that cares about me? Loneliness is a, you know, is a major concern. And so fear of rejection, the fear of uncertainty, like not only am I gonna die, but I have no idea what that means, if what's gonna happen, is there any... Is that it? Um, is it gonna be painful? Um, w- what about the people I leave behind? How are they gonna... You know, are they gonna be devastated? So, um, so other people have made the argument, well, there's a whole bunch of anxieties that are related to, to, to mortality and other potential existential threats, and so what meaning is, is a, is a response to that. But in a lot of these theories, uh, a way to, you know, to kind of maybe connect them all is to say they're all about some type of threat regulation, right? That, that we face threats, things that make us anxious, things that make us scared, um, things that maybe demotivate us 'cause anoth- another response isn't just to be terrified, but to feel like, "Well, what's the point?" Like, "Why should I work hard and do stuff to contribute to society when I'm gonna die and then n- everyone's gonna forget about me anyway?" And so the, the idea is to be an organism as intelligent as ours requires some kind of motivation beyond this, beyond the self, or to grapple with the, the transience of the self. Um, there are other perspectives too. Um, you know, you could imagine it's, uh, similar to that regulatory thing, but you could imagine it without even m- uh, uh, thinking about the threat component. You could just imagine, well, you just need some kind of inspiration in life because life's difficult. And, and so if you get up every day and you're just kind of like focused on like the immediate, "Will I just get food in my belly," then our civilization doesn't really flourish. You need people to want to create works of art, to, uh... I mean, some of the, you know, some of the biggest contributions to, um, you know, to culture and to architecture and to religion and, you know, have, have been projects that have transcended one individual's lifetime. And so somebody might be working on something and be like, "This might not even be completed when (laughs) you know, before I die, but I've made it... I, I, I'm part of that." So I think there's something about our ability to step outside of our physical selves that, um, that has been, you know, that's very, very adaptive, right? That has allowed us to say, "There are projects bigger than me." Um, and 'cause if you just focus on like my, you know, if you're just like, "I just have to focus on making sure I stay alive and maybe my kids" bec- you know, (laughs) like, you know, my, you know, my genet- you know, genetic continuity, right? Uh, you know, I'm wired to protect my offspring, but there's just so many, so many challenges in, in, in society that require self-sacrifice, right? They require you to look beyond yourself and to have a vision well into the future to say, "Well, you know, I wanna, I wanna care about making an impact." A sum- from that perspective, I think you can imagine meaning as not just about protecting you from your anxieties, but inspiring people to, to, to, for, for big, for big goals, and bringing t- people together for big goals. Um, so that's another theory. There, there are others, but, you know, that kind of, I think those kind of, that kind of sums it up.

   8. CWChris Williamson15:34

      It's pretty compelling, man. Like, life's hard. The, the desire to overcome suffering requires something more than just... Well, like wha- if it wasn't for the fact that there is meaning or some sort of ability to transcend, all that you'd be doing is saying, "Well, I'll get past this suffering today, so that I can get on to tomorrow's suffering tomorrow." That's not a very compelling argument.

   9. CRClay Routledge15:54

      (laughs) Right.

   10. CWChris Williamson15:55

       Like, that does not sound like a very fun life. So yeah, I understand. It's, um, it's interesting that it's kind of like a defense mechanism.

   11. CRClay Routledge16:03

       Mm-hmm.

   12. CWChris Williamson16:03

       That it's there, uh, in a lot of these theories as a way to assist us with the inevitable vicissitudes of life, as opposed to enhancing life and making us better, and I think that probably that would be explained by the fact that we're built to be effective, not happy. It doesn't really matter-

   13. CRClay Routledge16:21

       Right, right.

   14. CWChris Williamson16:21

       ... whether we're that happy. All that matters is do we survive and reproduce, and if you can be potentially sold some sort of transcendent lie by your own programming-

   15. CRClay Routledge16:32

       (laughs)

   16. CWChris Williamson16:33

       ... that this, this, this thing that you're contributing, this podcast that you're recording really does matter in the wider scheme of things, make sure that you keep going until you have children.

   17. CRClay Routledge16:41

       (laughs)

   18. CWChris Williamson16:43

       This football team that you play for really does... You know, the religion that you attest to, all that sort of stuff. Um, so yeah, I, I, I, I'm quite sort of seduced by the idea that it's a byproduct of being very clever that you have humans that are super intelligent... Well, they are super intelligent compared with everyone else that's around.

   19. CRClay Routledge16:59

       (laughs) Yeah.

   20. CWChris Williamson17:00

       And a byproduct of that is this ability to consider our own death. And when you have that, you think, "Oh, well, maybe the intelligence is worthy of that." Maybe being intelligent is such an advantage that the fact that we have to deal with death is, is just a small price that we need to pay, but we still need to be able to compete with it, and the desire for meaning, and, and transcendence is one of those. Does... How does purpose relate to meaning? Is purpose part of this?

   21. CRClay Routledge17:29

       Yeah.

   22. CWChris Williamson17:29

       What does it do?

   23. CRClay Routledge17:30

       Yeah. Yeah. So certainly, and ev- among the researchers who study this, they, they consider purpose kind of a sub-component of meaning because, like I said before, you can think of meaning at this very, very abstract

4. 17:43 – 28:48

   The Importance of Purpose

   1. CRClay Routledge17:43

      level of things ranging from just co- a coherent environment to my life having direction. And that, that self part, that my life having direction is often what people refer to as purpose. Like th- it's, so purpose is very goal, is a very goal-focused way of thinking about, about meaning. Like, "I have a purpose." And in addition to that, you know, a new area that I've been, you know, b- I've been working now with some coll- colleagues to de- develop, and this is very, very new, very, very new research, is what we're referring to as existential agency.... and it relates to purpose, but, uh, I, I, I think it's different in an important way. So purpose, you could say, is I've been given a purpose, right? Like, this is, you know... You can imagine purpose outside of your own decision-making, right? You could say, "I'm..." You know, "My purpose in this world is to do X." Some people would say, "No, I create my own purpose," but that's not inherent in the concept of purpose, 'cause you can have goal-driven behavior that you feel like you were, you were assigned. Like, you could say, "My purpose..." well, like you said a minute ago, "My purpose is to reproduce," (laughs) right? Um, existential agency is w- you know, uh, we define it as people's belief in their own ability to, to guide the meaning in their life, to have a meaningful life. So you could say, "My life is meaningful because I have this religious belief that," you know, "that says all," you know, "all life is meaningful, and I've been given this purpose." But within that, you need some kind of dri- like, you need to feel like you have the ability to take action and to do things, not just be passively pushed around, (laughs) and to say, "Well, I guess this is my meaning," or, "This is not my meaning." And so there seems to be this, this more self-regulatory dimension of meaning, and that's what we call existential agency. But, uh, it is connected to purpose. Um, and people who... You know, like I said, this is very, very early work, um, but it seems like people who have a strong sense of existential agency, even if you control for how, you know, how meaningful they see their lives, it's the people who have a really strong sense of agency that are the most motivated. They're the most driven. They're the most resilient. And they're the most entrepreneurial, you know, so they're the most willing to take risks. And a lot of it has to do with the fact that they see themselves as responsible for their own meaning, right? They feel like when life feels meaningless, they can change it. They can do something about it. As opposed to people that, you know, maybe are just more like, "Well, I guess, it wa- just wasn't meant to be, and I'm not..." You know, um, "I can't do anything about this," or, "My meaning is really contingent on these other external forces." A- and so, I think that that's... And I think that's, uh... And part of the reason I wanted this, to, to really start to figure that angle out was because I feel like we increasingly are living in a society, at least here in the, in, in the US, and I think this is the case more broadly in the Western world, where people are acting like you're not in control of anything, (laughs) right? There's all this... You know, there's all these concerns about, like, systemic, um, oppression and things like that. And then, you know, this isn't to take away from real structural challenges that people face. Um, but the point being is I- if we're only talking about those things that are... We think of as outside of people's controls, we're neglecting the fact that humans have all this cognitive horsepower up here, (laughs) right? Regardless of what situation you were born into in life, and again, there, clearly there are priv- privileges and advantages and differences between people, um, but regardless of that, there, there's something going on within the, within humans that gives us a great deal of cognitive freedom, if we choose to act on it, right? Um, so I could get up tomorrow and say, "You know, I've been kind of lazy every day, and... But this is gonna be the day (laughs) that I, you know, I get my act together." And people do this all the time. You know, people set goals all the... The people change their li- for all the faulty things we hear about, like barriers to things, people all the time absolutely take action based on goals that they set and priorities that they make, um, in order to take control over their lives. So, I'm really interested in that agentic component of meaning.

   2. CWChris Williamson22:18

      Well, think about why anyone ever gets seduced or finds it really sort of emotionally fulfilling to see those transformation photos of some guy-

   3. CRClay Routledge22:27

      Mm-hmm.

   4. CWChris Williamson22:28

      ... Ethan Suplee, one of my buddies, the guy that was in Remember the Titans and Donnie Darko, a bunch of, a bunch of films.

   5. CRClay Routledge22:33

      Mm-hmm.

   6. CWChris Williamson22:34

      And, um, he lost, like, 350 pounds. Like, h- he lost-

   7. CRClay Routledge22:40

      Yeah.

   8. CWChris Williamson22:40

      ... a hu- two humans off of himself.

   9. CRClay Routledge22:43

      (laughs) Right.

   10. CWChris Williamson22:43

       And the reason that people love that story is that you see someone that you thought was going down a particular path, that had a meta-narrative that they were attached to and they were on the rails, but through force of will and effort, they've managed to change the cart onto a different set of railway tracks, and they've done that through their own agency.

   11. CRClay Routledge23:04

       Mm-hmm.

   12. CWChris Williamson23:04

       So, I think that people intuitively are aware of this. It's r-... I think you're correct to say that the victimhood mentality that we're seeing at the moment, um, completely outsources existential agency.

   13. CRClay Routledge23:19

       Right.

   14. CWChris Williamson23:20

       And if man can make a heaven of hell and a hell of heaven, then your ability to interpret how the world is talking to you and how you are experiencing it is more than 50% of the battle. Now, you have people that are in wor- like, terrible, terrible situations who are able to be relatively fulfilled and people that seemingly have everything, lottery winners that kill themselves. So-

   15. CRClay Routledge23:42

       Right.

   16. CWChris Williamson23:43

       ... you know, your material situation is an influence, but it's not a determinant. You know, you would say maybe it, it predisposes but it doesn't predetermine. So, yeah, I think that framing things in that way and allowing people to understand and encouraging them toward, "Look, take advantage. Take control of the, uh, of the direction that your life's going in," I think that's a smart area of research.

   17. CRClay Routledge24:06

       Yeah, yeah. Thanks. No, and you, you summed it up perfectly. I mean, and it doesn't even have to be, 'cause people tend to think of... Your example's a good one and, uh, a dramatic one, but even little, even little things. So, you know, people do... You know, like, you'll see research on, like, even just increasing the amount you walk-... every day. So, y- you know, even people who aren't like, "I'm gonna make some gigantic transf- transformation..." But it's a choice just to say, "You know what? I'm going to take the stairs instead of the, the elevator." Or I guess you would say the lift, right? (laughs) Like, I'm gonna ... I lived in the UK for two years. I think I still-

   18. CWChris Williamson24:43

       You remembered it.

   19. CRClay Routledge24:44

       ... I think I remember the words still. Um, but there's lots of little things that people do every day. And even if, even if there are... You know, 'cause again, you know, a- a- and you made this point and it's true. Like, ev- even if you start out with certain vulnerabilities. So, let's say, let... You know, to use an example, think about, like, a genetic predisposition towards alcoholism, right? Some people just, for whatever reason, um, can't handle drinking. A lot of us can. A lot of us have no problems just saying, "You know, like, I drink, you know, sometimes a lot, sometimes hardly at all. And I can turn it on and off at will. It's no big deal." Other people, they just, they can't crack the bottle. They really can't. But what... So- so one... So the victimhood narrative, as you described it, which you see a lot is, well, alcohol abuse isn't really a choice because it's a genetic disposition and it's a disease and it's, you know... Uh, um, but... And, and so what's funny is the more we learn scientifically about that, the more people intuitively seem to think that, well, you have no control over it. But another way to look at it from an agency point of view is thanks to our scientific understanding of genetic, um, vulnerabilities, you've just armed somebody with information so now they can say, "You know what? I know I'm the type of person that can't be at the pub, that can't have alcohol in the house." And those are choices to set up your life based on information that you now have, and so... Yeah, and it seems so obvious. But just that simple difference of looking at it from, "Oh, this is a genetic predisposition. I'm hopeless," to know learning, learning about genetics actually gives me information, um, about my personality, about my vulnerabilities, things, you know, things that tempt me, things that bring out the worst in me, things that, things that motivate me. What is it that inspires me to be at my best? Like, so the more you can learn about these things scientifically, those aren't, like, determinants. (laughs) Th- th- that doesn't mean, like, you know, your life is just being... You're just being pushed around by these, by these external causes. They're information that can help you make choices to, to, you know, to live a better, a better life. So, I actually think that as, as we learn more and more about, you, you know, you know, the science of the brain, um, that doesn't mean we're less in control. That's giving us more information about how to, how to regulate our own behavior. But m- my feeling is that's kind of a minority position in the modern day scholar... You know, Western scholarship. In- instead, people just seem to think, "Well, here's another excuse, here's another reason why you're not... It's not your fault." Um, and I'm like, well, no, here's more information that, that arms you with the, with the ability, um, to make better choices.

   20. CWChris Williamson27:44

       The presumption that knowing more about the way that you operate forces you into a tunnel, I think, has got everything backward. There's this, uh, Khenpe Rin- Rinpoche quote where he says, "The choice in life is between the discomfort of becoming aware of your mental afflictions or the discomfort of being ruled by them."

   21. CRClay Routledge28:03

       Hm. That's a great quote. Yeah.

   22. CWChris Williamson28:05

       There it is. Like, look, y- y- this is going to happen whether or not you want to know about it. Like, your genetics are your genetics. If you decide to read Robert Plomin's br- blueprint or not, it's still... They're still there for you. They're still controlling your behavior. So, do you want to become aware of them or do you not?

   23. CRClay Routledge28:20

       Right.

   24. CWChris Williamson28:20

       And then, do you want to, do you want to take control of them or not? Because you can either be at the mercy of them or you can try and account for them. And that's really, that's really all that we've, all that we've got. What about, um... What are some of the predictors? What are the biggest predictors of having meaning in life?

   25. CRClay Routledge28:35

       Yeah. So, the, the, the biggest one... Okay, well, l- let me say it this way. If you ask people what gives their life meaning, which is some research we've done, and we've asked, we've asked people who are... We've asked people

5. 28:48 – 36:17

   Predictors of Meaning

   1. CRClay Routledge28:48

      who are religious, who aren't religious, of different ages, of different, you know, belong to different groups. Um, overwhelmingly, everyone says relationships. Like, family and friends. So, meaning appears to be very, very social. Um, so that, that's a first... That's one piece of information that's important. Now, what I think the mistake that sometimes people make is they turn that into, "Oh, so meaning is just about being liked and being included." Um, well, no, I don't think that's, (laughs) that's what it is. What it means is meaning... Wh- what it really is, if y- is, if you look deeper, meaning is about mattering to other people and, you know, getting back to the idea of, you know, you're talking about how we evolved and, you know, ways of thinking about it from a more perhaps evolutionary point of view. If humans are a, a, a tribal species and if you look back bef-... You know, certainly in the modern world, we have lots of advantag- you know, advances now that kind of allow... We still need people, but you can... I can, like, pay somebody to mow my lawn or... (laughs) you know, we can... Through trade, we can make all sorts of arrangements even if no one likes me. Um, but if you look back, you know, in, in our ancient past, um, y- and when life was more dangerous and, and we lived in small groups, then it was really important for you to have a role, right? For you to, for you to be like, "Well, you know, here's what you're good at. Here's how, you know, here's how you matter." And so it is social bec- because you have to... You know. You don't... The tree or a, a rock or the ocean doesn't care about y- (laughs) it doesn't care about you. Other people care. And the reason other people care is, um, in addition to, like, we're, we're kind of naturally social, is we need each other.And so it, really it's that feeling of like, "My family and friends need me." And so I- I often use this example, and it- it- it's silly, but I think it, uh, illustrates it pretty cleanly, which is imagine a situation in which you're part of a team. This can be a work team or, you know, any kind of group you're part of. And everyone to- everyone on your team is really, really nice to you. Very inclusive, never says anything bad. "You're great." Um, everyone thinks Chris is wonderful (laughs) , right? Um, but when it comes time to actually, for the- for the team to do something, you're like, "Okay, well, what are, what's my role? What am I gonna do?" Imagine if your teammates were like, "Oh, well, we don't need you to do anything. You're just- we just love you, Chris, and you're great. Um, you just chill out. You're fine. We don't need you to do anything." Now, that situation doesn't sound very meaningful. It sounds like people are being nice to you, but you're sitting here thinking, "Well, what, am I like a loser? Like I can't (laughs) -" they, you know, "I don't have anything to contribute?" Now, in- in real life, you know, in the other situation, oftentimes our relationships are a little bit more messy, right? They're not, everyone's nice to you all the time, because we have all sorts of motives and vulnerabilities and insecurities and, you know, conflicts and things like that. But what ma- what matters, um, for you to, you know, to feel socially valued is that your team actually needs you to do something, right? That, "Chris is good at X," or, you know, "Chris can deliver on this." And so it's not- a- another way of thinking about it, it's not just being liked. It's serving an important function. And it's easy for us to see, or it's often easier for us to see that with, or we care about it more with our- with our- with our close family and friends, 'cause those are the people we matter to. Those are the people that count on us. And so this connects to something that I'm actually, think might be a growing concern, you know, uh, in our society, is- is you have people- you have this, you know, supposed loneliness epidemic that people talk about. But the funny thing about loneliness is you can- and this has been documented in, you know, some of the early research on loneliness, is people can actually feel lonely even when they're surrounded by others. So you could get up every day, you could have a roommate, you could have coworkers, you could have schoolmates, um, around you all the time, but you still feel lonely. And how is that possible? Well, it's because you don't really feel like you matter. Um, you feel like you're... In fact, people who have been ostracized, uh, they often, if you just ask them to describe the experience of ostracism, what they'll say is it feels like they're invisible. In- in a way, it's been described by, you know, by researchers as ostracism is like social death. It's an existential threat, like we were talking about before. Um, you're still physically alive, but you're invisible. You don't matter. And so the biggest predictor of meaning is really mattering. It's like ma- it's like... It's a social thing. You have to m- you matter to people (laughs) . Um, but it's more than just people being nice to you. And I think that's important, um, because imagine a lot of our... Imagine some of the things we care about, like in schools and education, where anti-bullying and, you know, all these, you know, these ac- these campaigns for- for kids to be nice to each other, not to be cruel, which, you know, that- that's great. Obviously we don't want people being cruel to each other. But people need, even children, they need to feel like not just that people are being nice to them, but that they have a significant role to play in the group. That they- that their contributions matter. So we could have a very, very polite and kind society that's superficially social (laughs) , but a deeper... You know, I would rather you yell at me, Chris (laughs) . I'd rather you and I have a conflict, but it's because we're- we're- we're both doing something important, and y- we realize that sometimes important things come out of challenge, adversity. As opposed to, "Well, we're never gonna say anything mean to each other, and we're always gonna just be really, you know, kind, because we don't want m- no one's feelings to be hurt." And, you know, I'm exaggerating a little bit, but, you know, to the extent that we go in that direction, well, let's not... You know, let's just make sure everyone feels safe and comforted and- and- and- and loved, um, if it's- if it's at the cost of people actually having something to do to make a difference in society, um, then that's a, you know, that's a, I think that's a- a worrying trend.

   2. CWChris Williamson35:07

      Yeah, this sort of, what would you say? Like dictatorial meaning. It's like bureaucratically bestowed top-down.

   3. CRClay Routledge35:15

      Right.

   4. CWChris Williamson35:15

      Like that's not, that's not a thing. I mean, we saw this last year with, um, the Black Lives Matter black square.

   5. CRClay Routledge35:24

      Mm-hmm.

   6. CWChris Williamson35:24

      So if you didn't post the black square-

   7. CRClay Routledge35:27

      Oh. Yeah. Oh, yeah. That's right.

   8. CWChris Williamson35:28

      ... there was- there was something implied around what that meant, and people were much happier to see somebody be coerced into posting something they didn't believe.

   9. CRClay Routledge35:41

      Right.

   10. CWChris Williamson35:41

       They would've- they would've m- m- been more comfortable with a comforting lie than an uncomfortable truth.

   11. CRClay Routledge35:47

       Right.

   12. CWChris Williamson35:47

       Or even just nothing, let alone truth. Like, like truth sounds like people were- would have been going against it. It's like, "I- I just didn't post it," but that wouldn't have been enough. And I- I think that... Yeah, it's interesting. It's interesting to think about how meaning relates to the social side of things. Does that mean that, does that mean that meaning in isolation kind of doesn't exist, if you're an isolated individual?

   13. CRClay Routledge36:14

       Yeah. No, that's a good... I- I think that's a good way of thinking

6. 36:17 – 42:30

   Is There Meaning in Isolation?

   1. CRClay Routledge36:17

      about it, because why do we care about anything? Um, and if you were the... So if you were the (laughs) , if you were the last person, uh, on Earth, right? If you were the last person on the planet, then it, yeah, it probably would... Unless you felt like you had some way of rebooting (laughs) the species, right? It would, you know, you probably would feel very meaningless, right? Like what's- what's the point? In fact, this is one of the, um...I think this is actually an issue that people who are concerned about things like climate change should pay a little bit closer attention to, because if you wanna motivate young people to make the world a better place, it's not a good strategy to take this apocalyptic worldview of, "Well, we only have..." I don't know, depends on what week it is how many years we have (laughs) left. But you, you've probably heard all this before. Like, this, this total apocalyptic, you know, you know, terror of, well, what's the point? Like, we're all, we're just, it's too late. And you see that kind of wrapped up with the antinatalism, right, there's no point in, uh, you know, we should just quit reproducing. Humans were a mistake. We're destroying the Earth, and it's not gonna be inhabitable in 50 years or 20 years or 100 years. Well, that's a very demoralizing position to take. That's not going to inspire people to make any sacrifices. In fact, if anything, it, it might have the opposite effect, which is it might make people more hedonistic and more greedy and selfish. Because if you're like, "Well there's n- you know, there's no point. There's no future," you might as well go out with a party, right? (laughs) So you might as well just, you know, be like, "Well, I'm just gonna look after myself and enjoy my life." But if you think there's some kind of challenge or threat coming in the future, but one that's, you know, that we can manage, and through science and engineering and, you know, uh, you know, other types of, you know, goal-directed behavior, then you're more likely to get people to, you know, to say, "Okay, well, you know, there's things I would like to do, but I'm not gonna do this because I'm serving the, you know, I'm serving this, the, this higher good." Um, but I see a lot of... And, and there definitely are... I mean, if you look at, like, technol- if you look at innovation and entrepreneurship and, and certainly in the business world, I think there are a lot of people and a lot of companies and a lot, you know, um, a lot of entrepreneurs that are trying to come up with new types of technology, cleaner energy, um, ways of just, um, kinda calibrating our life to, to manage the fact that, you know, there, there, there might be changes, um, in our, in the climate, right? And not being, like, insane about it, but just saying, "Hey, this is a challenge, and humans, we're clever. We've overcome challenges before. We can do this." There are people doing that, but then you see this... And, you know, they're just doing it, I think, in, you know, in, in largely in the business world. Um, but then you see, like, these activists that are, um... Not all of them. I mean, I'm, I'm not trying to, (laughs) you know, over-generalize, but that do have this more very, like, nihilistic, apocalyptic view. And I mean, I guess I just don't know what the purpose of that is because-

   2. CWChris Williamson39:41

      Well, I think, uh, I think the reason that people are doing that is they, they presume that because o- uh, if they overshoot the severity or if they give it the, the most grand-seeming, uh, level of significance that they can, that maybe this is going to motivate people into doing it. But it sounds like what you're saying is that's based on a misjudged view of how human motivation works.

   3. CRClay Routledge40:04

      Yeah. Yeah. No. You're right. I, I think so, big time. I mean, you just... People have to have a r-... People have to feel like there's, there's a reason to try. (laughs) And, and it... So you could... I know that some people have argued that this apocalyptic environmentalism is like a meaning system. Like, they're doing it because it, like, gives their life life-meaning. But this gets to, I think, the question of, well, not all meaning, worldview, existential-related worldviews are, are the same, right? Um, apoco- apocalyptic ones that act like, well, you're, y- you're the last one, you know, you're, you're the righteous ch- (laughs) you know, chosen few, which... Uh, some of this does have, like, a fundamentalist f- fervor, you know. And again, not all of it, but some of it definitely does. Well, that might make somebody feel somehow like they're part of some group, um, and that's meaningful, um, but it's not really a solution-focused, future-focused source of meaning. And so, I would say that all, all meaning projects aren't created equally. And it's healthier, not just for individuals, im- 'cause obviously, like, people are... I mean, there are people... I mean, some people, I think, are being over the top, but I do think there are people that are legitimately, like, completely terrified. (laughs) And they're very, very anxious, and they're, they're mentally not healthy. Um, and that's not, that's not really a, a way for them to live, and it's not really helping. In fact, it's, uh, uh, it's hurting for, you know, for, uh, you know, because it's de-... It's demotivating the people who would care, and it's making other people feel like this is... You know, these people are just being ridiculous. They have nothing to offer. And maybe they do have something to offer, 'cause like you said, maybe they're overshooting. Maybe if they just throttled back a little bit (laughs) and said, "Okay, well, here are some things that we can do. Can we come together as reasonable people and, you know, and, and try to moderate our behavior in some way or come up with some new, um, um, innovations a- and technological innovations, um, that can, you know, that can help us take this, take this problem on?"

   4. CWChris Williamson42:11

      What are some of the most robust ways that people can actually add meaning to their life, then?

   5. CRClay Routledge42:17

      So I think what, you know, the, one of the best ways you can do it, or one of the things... Again, this gets back to the social element of meaning. It seems like the more people, um, feel like they're giving, they're looking

7. 42:30 – 52:31

   Guaranteed Ways to Add Meaning

   1. CRClay Routledge42:30

      beyond the self and helping others, the more they feel meaning. So, pro-social behavior. So, helping, you know, taking care of family, helping out, you know, in your community, um, working on... You know, not every job. Here, here's another, here's another thing that I think is interesting is that...Uh, we often think about, like, will your work... You know, we, we talk about a lot and, you know, I'm in a, a department of management in a, in a business college and we talk a lot about meaningful work. And I think that one misunderstanding about meaningful work is, is people think, "Well, I have to feel like every day when I go to work that what I'm, that tasks (laughs) I'm doing feel meaningful." But a lot of times at the lower level what we're doing doesn't feel that meaningful, it's just boring stuff. Um, um, but so what peop- what helps people actually, um, have meaning is if they can attach it to something higher, what we call higher order goals. So es- you know, this is, you know, to use a- an example from, like, physical training, um, if you're training to run a marathon, like, and if you're, if you had the goal of, like, this higher order goal of training to run a marathon, that feels like a pretty, pretty big g- accomplishment, right? Um, but that goal is actually made up of a bunch of sub-goals, right? (laughs) And those sub-goals are things like train- you know, ev- going on s- you know, increasing the distance I run, you know, fluctuating on, you know, c- coming up with a training schedule, increasing my caloric intake, eating the right types of foods and things like that. So those... But that's not like... That doesn't sound super meaningful. Um, like if I'm, say, like, writing a book, that sounds pretty cool, right? But that's made up of things as low as typing words on a keyboard (laughs) . That doesn't sound particularly meaningful, right? That sounds kind of boring. And so I think one of the things that people need to be able to do to really achieve meaning is to be able to attach even their mundane, kind of ordinary day-to-day grind to bigger, longer term projects and goals, especially ones that are oriented towards serving others, serving your community, helping, you know, helping build something beyond yourself. And this is why it's good for organizations. This is helpful because it's good for organizations to think about, that their employees don't need to feel, like, entertained all day long and need to feel like everything's, you know, this big epic thing. But it helps if you feel like what you're doing, even if it's small, even if it's just, you know, cleaning up, cleaning an office, that that's actually... You're a meaningful member of the organization. You're part of a team that's working towards a mission, a certain cause, or, you know, some purpose and you play a significant role in that. And sometimes those things are gonna feel, you know, inspiring and interesting, and sometimes they're just gonna be, like, mundane chores that we have to do. Um, so I think that's, that's important. And again, a lot of those things are about, are about relationships. They're about, like, feeding my family. Um, so again, a job might not be exciting. It might be boring. But where people might get meaning from that job is, is not the particular duty, but the sense of like, "I'm taking care of people." Like, "I'm doing something. I'm putting food on the table." And I think that's, um, that, that's really important.

   2. CWChris Williamson46:02

      It seems to me like a lot of these questions had already been answered by religion and tradition.

   3. CRClay Routledge46:08

      Right. Yeah.

   4. CWChris Williamson46:10

      Am I wrong there? Like is it, is it... 'Cause it seems to me, have a community that you feel like you're contributing to, have a local-

   5. CRClay Routledge46:18

      Right.

   6. CWChris Williamson46:18

      ... group of people that know who you are and that you have a role within it. Um, build a family, have a job, you know, n- a lot of this-

   7. CRClay Routledge46:25

      Yeah.

   8. CWChris Williamson46:25

      A lot of this was probably already fixed.

   9. CRClay Routledge46:28

      Right. No, you're, you're absolutely right. I mean, there's tons of things that we do and, you know, and this is picking on myself a little bit because I'm obviously a modern empirical psychologist. There's tons of things that we do that are just (laughs) rediscovering, like, old wisdom. You know, I was listening to a podcast, uh, a while back and, you know, they were g- they were talking, you know, they were talking about this idea of, well, what if you took a portion, a percentage of your salary and donat- you know, it's like they were rediscovering the concept of tithing, right? (laughs) It's like, (laughs) it's like... And then they settled on, "Well, what if it was, like, 10%?" Like, this whole idea of, like, altruistic giving. And it's like, again, not to, you know, not to take away from, from those rediscoveries. But it's like, yeah, those are all... You're right. Those are old ideas. I mean, a long time ago, you know, people came up with, you know, figured these things out. A lot of this is rediscovering old, old wisdom, I think. But, you know, getting back to an issue that, that, that you raised about culture. I mean, I think in any given time, uh, a society, a culture has to make things, like, speak in their modern (laughs) way. So now, you know, we care a lot about science, right? We want things to be empirically tested. We... Uh, you know, that, that seems to be the, the guiding cultural narrative of the, of the modern West. So in other words, we might be, we might be, like, revisiting old ideas, but we're, we're scrutinizing them using new techniques and tools of science. And then we're putting our own, our own spin (laughs) , you know, kind of our own spin on them. And so I do think, you know, rediscovering these things is just part of, you know, part of culture. Looking back and seeing like, well, what worked and what didn't. And then, you know, you... Cultures forget, right? They rediscover things because they forget because th- you know, it's easy to, to go in one direction and think, "Oh, this is really cool. This is the way we should go." And then for things to get stress tested a little bit and then being like, "You know what? Like, we should get back to, back to this way of thinking." That actually connects to another area of research I do in, in, in existential psychology that's focused on nostalgia. Um, actually that... I don't know if that's something you wanna talk about, but-

   10. CWChris Williamson48:48

       Yeah, yeah, yeah. What's it about... Also, it makes me think about a Shane Parrish quote where he says, "The whys of every generation discover the same truths."

   11. CRClay Routledge48:56

       Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, no, I- that's a good, that's a good quote. Um, yeah, so I, you know, I do research on nostalgia and typically when people think about nostalgia, they just think of like silly marketing or like-

   12. CWChris Williamson49:07

       Sports memorabilia.

   13. CRClay Routledge49:09

       ... sports memorabilia or, you know, vintage clothing, old music, things like that. Um, well, it turns out what a- a- a big aspect of nostalgia that- that's existentially helpful is nostalgia really is about the memories that we cherish, the things that we find meaningful, and often they are connected to these- these c- things that seem kind of silly like, um, like sports memorabilia and old movies and music and things like that. But those connections are usually because, um, that was, that was c- those objects or experiences are connected to- to memories, you know, to- to specific times in our life that something seemed really important. And so what nostalgia seems to be, or a big part of nostalgia seems to be people's ability to reach into the past to- to- to find little lessons that help them move forward. So, for instance, you might be really busy right now. Um, you got lots of stuff going on with, you know, with your career, with, you know, other things and- and it's easy to forget like how important relationships are. Time goes by really fast. It's- it's easy, you know, you often, um, hear these anecdotes of older people saying, "Wow, like looking back I wish I would've spent more time with my kids or, you know, doing, focusing on this. I was so worried about eh, eh being successful at work or accumulating money or whatever," and they look back on these things. What nostalgia does is it kind of helps, uh, it helps direct you because you're like, "Oh yeah, these are really, this was really important memories that I have, um, and I'd like to have stuff like that again." And so it's a, it's- it's kind of like a priority check.

   14. CWChris Williamson50:51

       Yeah, so you use the past as a forecasting tool to project the future?

   15. CRClay Routledge50:57

       Right. And to what and w- the things that you wanna s- spend your limited, you know, time and energy on. And so in a lot of ways I actually think nostalgia is a very future, is a future-oriented experience because it's reminding you of what you care about. Even like the silliest example of going on holiday where you're like, you know, "Oh, that was a really cool trip" and then you kind of forget about it. And then maybe 10 years later you're like, "oh, I s- I haven't done that in a long time and that was awesome. Like I really need to make that, something like that happen again." And so it does have this kind of, um, guiding effect. And the reason I brought that up in- in- in response to the rediscovering old truths is nostalgia is i- there is this intergenerational component to it too where we're passing down traditions and religions across time, and so there is this- this- this aspect of nostalgia that is, I think, encapsulating some of these old ideas, uh, and especially around the importance of, like you said, community, having a community, having a family, focusing on those things. A lot of nostalgic memories are- are- are very much about rites of passage, important family and religious traditions, uh, and- and things like that.

   16. CWChris Williamson52:12

       Have you considered what happens if we're now kind of fighting the tide as humans? Like if trying to create some sort of cohesive meta-narrative that ties everything together is essentially like impossible. Like what if our brains are over-clocked for what we need and the clash between what we need and

8. 52:31 – 59:35

   Insufficiency of Empiricism

   1. CWChris Williamson52:31

      what we've dispensed with as we developed as a culture and created science has just left us in this sort of uncanny valley. We can't go back for most people, I think it's more than 50% of America now describes themselves as non-religious in one form or another, um-

   2. CRClay Routledge52:46

      Right.

   3. CWChris Williamson52:46

      ... so w- w- we can't really go back to that sort of a situation. We're now praying at the altar of science and rationality, but it would appear, I think I- I've seen you quote about some global trends over time with regards to meaning that there is a little bit of a meaning crisis at the moment. What if we're just stuck in this sort of U-bend?

   4. CRClay Routledge53:07

      Hm. Well, I'm, uh, by nature an optimist, so... (laughs)

   5. CWChris Williamson53:12

      Well, I- I'll- I'll balance you out quite nicely in that case, Clay.

   6. CRClay Routledge53:15

      Okay. So, uh, that- that's good. And we need both sides, right? Um, so I think, I think one thing that- that is possible, and it relates aga- again it connects to that idea of- of rediscovering ancient, you know, wisdom, is that yes, we are in a, we are in a unprecedented time, especially with technology and the- the way it connects us that, um, I don't just live in a little community and, you know, I'm worried about, you know, I'm worried about being liked and successful and everything within my little group. Like, I can get online and see what other people are doing all over the world. And now we just have s- we're just bombarded with so much information, and even with the, even with the supposed rise of science and rationality, and the reason I say supposed is 'cause people often talk about things using scientific jargon and u- you know, using words that sound rational but really they're just expressing their- their feelings and their intuitions and their- and their beliefs and they're just decorating them with scientific terminology. Um, but I do think it, because I do think you're right, it relates to the fact that science has become like almost like a religious like movement, um, even though really it's a methodology, right? It's a, it's a set of tools used to interrogate nature and reality, um, but people have turned it into this, um, this bigger i- identity. Um, but our brains haven't changed, right? We still have the brains we had, um, for the way things used to be long before the- the, long before the- the Western Enlightenment, long before modern technology and our interconnected, um, world.But what I think is possible is that we'll, you know, we'll figure it out. Like, (laughs) we'll, we'll, you know, we'll learn to, you know, again, maybe through science ironically, we'll learn that, well, you know what? It's not science and ration- empiricism isn't enough. There's something... Magical is not the right word, because there is a neurological explanation, but th- there's something that feels magical (laughs) about the human experience that can't be just summed up by being, acting like we're robots or like we're, um, what's... I don't know if you're a Star Trek fan. Um, um, you know, there's, like, Data, the, h- he's the robot.

   7. CWChris Williamson55:46

      No.

   8. CRClay Routledge55:46

      Um, or the Vulcans, th- they're not ro- I mean, they're, they're human-like, but they supposedly, you know, um, suppress their emotions and... But we're not like that, right? We, the things that give us meaning in life, that's, this is another element of meaning, is there's a cognitive component of meaning. The things that give us meaning are intuitive, and that is it feels meaningful. So if you go out in nature and you have an experience that induces awe, um, that's an intuition, that's a feeling, that, you know. If you are listening to music and you just let the music move through... If you're not a music critic who's putting on your empirical brain to s- to, you know, to scrutinize, you know, every element of it, you're just in the experience. So meaning is very experiential. And yeah, there is a, you know, there's a crisis now, and yes, religion's in decline. Um, but I'm actually not as convinced as, as some people that it won't come back, not as it was before. Um, but as they'll, that people won't figure out that there is some aspect of the human condition that is spiritual, and that that is something that people, that really makes life fulfilling. And I do think that we're, we're especially bad at this in, in the West. I mean, if you go to, um, you know, more, um, like, uh, in East Asia, you know, yeah, there's a lot of, um, there is a lot of, like, nonreligious people, um, but there is more of a sense of, um, it's not weird to kind of be dualistic about th- these things. You can be a scientist and be spiritual. Like, there seems to be something about the individualistic West that's more like, well, you have to be one of, or the other, right? Like, you have to, um, you're either committed to the project of science and reason, or you're, like, some kind of weird hippie spiritualist or religious fundamentalist. And, um, in a lot of the world it's not... Um, you know, some of the, some of the, you know, most successful scientists are, are religious. Um, and so I do think that there, uh, I think maybe we'll kind of figure out, like, a more holistic path back to... You know, there are, there is something about... We do need to nurture our spiritual side, and that's not, um, hippie or weird or ma- mystical or... (laughs) You know, that's just part of the human condition. And a lot of the cool things that we do that are, you know, artistic and inspiring, um, very much tap into that side of our, you know, those dimensions of our, of our brain. And so I, you know, I think, I'd like to think we'll, we'll figure it out. (laughs)

   9. CWChris Williamson58:37

      I have a couple of buddies that call themselves cultural Christians.

   10. CRClay Routledge58:41

       Mm. Yeah.

   11. CWChris Williamson58:41

       So they, they don't necessarily ascribe to sort of the, the higher powers and stuff like that, but they really enjoy the experiential side. They like going to church, they like sitting down, they like being able to contribute to the community and-

   12. CRClay Routledge58:55

       Yeah.

   13. CWChris Williamson58:55

       ... doing stuff for whatever it is, Autumn Farm Giving and, you know, all, all of that. And to be honest, the more and more that I've thought about it, especially this year, that really, really sounds quite appealing to me. I'm asking, I'm gonna try and get myself to go at some point and say, "Look, man. Like, uh, I'd, I'd love to go along and, and see what this is like." You said that a part of human nature is inherently spiritual. What do you mean by that?

   14. CRClay Routledge59:22

       Yeah. Well, when I say that, I mean, I, I mean, you can, you can think of that in a, in a totally materialistic paradigm, I, I think. So 'cause a lot of times when people say spiritual, what they're, what they're, they mean that

9. 59:35 – 1:13:36

   Are Humans Inherently Spiritual?

   1. CRClay Routledge59:35

      there's something beyond the biological, something beyond the, you know, the laws of physics. Um, and I'm not saying there isn't or is. I'm s- as an em- you know, as a scientist, that's beyond my scope of inquiry, right? Like, I can only study things that, you know, are bound by the laws of nature. Um, I'm not a, a theologian or, you know-

   2. CWChris Williamson59:58

      A mystic.

   3. CRClay Routledge59:59

      Right. Um, but that doesn't mean that there isn't, experientially there isn't something spiritual. And I can be agnostic about, you know, that can be someone else's problem whether there's something beyond the material. But within our house, within our brain, right, the, the, the cognitive processes that drive human behavior very materialistically, uh, involve intuitive cognitions, right? We have, um... And p- you can study this in brain studies, right? You can look at... If you peep, there's different brain activity going on when people are s- like, focused on using rational thinking to solve a math problem than when they're just using their emotions and their intuitions, right? These ev- and s- in fact, there's an argument that these things are, um, antag- these processes are antagonistic to one another. And what I mean by that is that it's very difficult, if not impossible, to simultaneously do both. And so you can either use your math like, you know, (laughs) you can either be solving, you know, logic problems s-... um, or you can be feeling and experiencing something. And you can switch between the two, but you can't do th- that they're, that they're actually antagonistic to each other. You can't do them at the same time. And so, in other words, like, you can put on your intuition hat and say, "You know what? I'm not scrutinizing, I'm not trying to, (laughs) like, tear this apart logically. I'm just experiencing it." And then you can put on your science hat, your, you know, your rational hat and say, like, "Well, this happens to be the type of decision that really needs to be informed by evidence and reason." And I think people do this all the time without knowing it, and it's a classic example o- of, like, the, the, the religious scientist, right? So, somebody can go to church on Sunday and say, "Well, in this particular space, I'm not a scientist," right? Like, this is an experiential space where I'm having a, a spiritual encounter that's, that's about ritual, it's about community, it's about, um, let- you know, like, a leap of faith. Like, letting go a little bit. It- it's y- like, a humility. I don't know everything. There's something, you know, maybe there's something beyond my, my reason- you know, my ability, um, to, to know, you know, everything empirically, and just to have that experience. Um, and then you can ... Monday morning, you can go to, go to your laboratory and be like, "There's no space for any of that kind of stuff (laughs) here." Like, everything has to be extremely methodical and empirical. And I think people do that all the time, not just with religion, but we do that all the ... We do that with relationships. Like, people would probably think you were weird if when you, you know, if you're, if you have a significant other, if every day you were, like, checking a checklist of here's the things ... (laughs) you know? Here's the, here's the pros and cons of this relationship, and you were just making constant, like, empirical evaluations. And then you told your spouse, "Well, here's the 10 things that we suggest I should like you, and there's only eight that suggest I shouldn't. So, I guess on the whole, I love you." (laughs) Like, no, you don't do that. You s- it's a feeling, right? You, you ... Love is a, it's an intuition, it's a feeling. And not that it's not influenced by empirical data gathering, but when you experience it, like, you'd be weird if people ... I- if you took that methodical approach. You probably would be single (laughs) um, pretty quickly. So, we do this all the time, right? Where we switch between just throwing caution to the wind, taking a leap of faith, like, trusting our intuitions and having, you know, having experiences, versus now is the time to really marshal all my rational, um, capacities because I need to make an informed, uh, um, decision. Th- does that make sense?

   4. CWChris Williamson1:03:46

      Absolutely. Do you think that at the moment we're seeing people be too reliant on cerebral horsepower and not enough on this sort of embodied intuition?

   5. CRClay Routledge1:03:55

      I mean, I think it ... Well, I certainly think people think they're (laughs) more reliant on it than they are. And this gets to, you know, i- issues that, you know, of, of I think, um, maybe group think and bias. And I think there's a lot of s- ... Certainly in my world, you know, I'm an academic ... Um, I think there's a lot of people in, in especially in the behavioral and social sciences, but in the physical, uh, sciences as well, who, um, act like because they have this role of scientist (laughs) that they're just wholly empirical, uh, all the time, right? That this is, um, as opposed to, "Well, no, in this one specific area of work that you do," hopefully a good portion of the time, you're able to kind of overwhelm your biases and your intuitions, and you're able to rely on the tools, the objective tools, of science, um, to do that. Um, but you're not doing that all the time, (laughs) right? You're, you're ... And, but, I think people are, uh ... So I think people are overconfident that they're, that they're using these tools, and it ... and because we have this culture that's acting like that's everything. Like, you're an idiot if all your decisions aren't guided by science. Um, but I think a lot of that is actually just a s- it's just a narrative. It's just a story. It's like, a lot of things that people do are not guided by evidence (laughs) They're guided by, you know, experience. They're guided by, um, habit. They're guided by personality. They're guided by intuitions. Um, and it's not the case that people aren't, um, aren't making choi- ... you know, aren't making choices, but this notion that every single choice that they're making is, uh, is based somehow on a rigorous interrogation of evidence. Um, you, I don't think you'd just make it very far (laughs) in life if you ... You'd be paralyzed by, by, by indecision. Um, and there are some things that really it's just, they don't ... It doesn't matter. Like, it just should be like, "Well, this is what I wanna, you know, this is what I wanna do, and this is what I'm into." And, and that should be, and that should be fine. Um, so yeah, I think maybe if we did a better job of, like I said, uh, hopefully we can get back to this. If we did a better job of carving out a space where we said, "You know, there's a lot of life that is just, um, us trying to figure it out and explore ideas and have experiences," and it's ... You know, you talked about this with the, with the, the kind of totalitarian, like, everyone needs to have the right show the right, do the right virtue signaling, and show the right response. It's like, if we just had more tolerance for ... Like, people have, you know ... People are into different things and they have different opinions, and they're not all, like, driven by, like, "This is the b- ... you know, the science says this right now, and if you all don't fall in line, (laughs) then what, you know, what kinda idiots are you?" But a lot of it's just more messy than that. It's like, I know people are figuring things out and they have different l- they're legitimately subjective opinions that, you know, that there's not a single right answer, right? It depends on what people care about and what, you know, what risks they're willing to take. And, uh-And so I think we could... You know, I would like to see us get to more of that. And, and I, I think a recognition of our, you know, of our spiritual or intuitive side would go a long way in helping us get beyond this, like, everything is just cold calculations and if you're not making the right ones then you're an idiot. Because honestly, I think a lot of people, uh, you know, even the people that claim to be doing that, I think a lot of the times they're just not. They're just as biased and intuitive as everyone else. (laughs)

   6. CWChris Williamson1:07:34

      I agree. I think that the most interesting thing, or one of the most interesting things is the implication that this has for people's confidence in their own word. Because if you think that the standards, the rigorous scientific rationality standards where you need to know e- the name of every cognitive bias before you can set foot into the world-

   7. CRClay Routledge1:07:56

      (laughs)

   8. CWChris Williamson1:07:56

      ... you're inevitably going to question yourself so much more because you understand there's this big chasm between where you're operating at and where you feel like you should be operating. Like, if I haven't imbibed the entire rationalist movement and I, I, uh, like, be able to recite it word for word, then always, I'm gonna be making a lot of mistakes in my life. Whereas if you look at, you know, some of the simplest people that you know, your friend that's just really, really happy being a young dad or your friend that's-

   9. CRClay Routledge1:08:24

      Right.

   10. CWChris Williamson1:08:24

       ... just really, really happy being a carpenter. Whatever it is. Like, you know, I've got friends that are DJs and they don't think really too much about higher meaning. They really love the job that they do. They love playing music, they love making people happy, and that's it, and they live this sort of party boy lifestyle and they're having a great time. And then reinventing this and, and th- the... Yeah, the, the comeuppance of the scientific movement has been that when people on an individual level have taken this in, they've thought, "Right. Well, I need to be able to justify to myself rationally, scientifically all of the different actions that I'm going to take." And you go, "Well, how do you think we got here?" For, like, thousands and thousands of years people weren't able to do this. And I understand that if there is a best way, if there's an optimal strategy-

   11. CRClay Routledge1:09:07

       Mm-hmm.

   12. CWChris Williamson1:09:07

       ... for achieving anything, then trying to get closer to that should result in you operating more efficiently. But not if the chasing of that efficiency causes you to suffer so much during the chase that it completely negates any of the gains that you were going to get in any case. And this is, this is the virtuous mean, right? It's, "I want to know the things that I want to know, but I need to also be aware of the fact that I'm fallible and I'm this weird phenomenological creature that's just gonna feel things a- and just kind of have faith in my, in my embodied self." And this is... Yeah, this is something that I think when you dispense with religion, there's no, there's nothing for people to fall back on. They can't just have faith in the fact that they're doing things right and God'll step in if I'm doing it wrong. There isn't any higher power. The, the, the cold, harsh, gray truth of rationality is that existential agency is purely mine to find, to create. It's my inertia to overcome. It's my momentum to maintain. And if I don't do it then, oh my god, m- maybe my life's not worth anything. And that's where we end up.

   13. CRClay Routledge1:10:12

       Yeah. No, it's an interesting point. I mean, and, and, and to be clear that, um, you know, obviously science (laughs) and rationality have, you know, have dramatically improved our lives. But the... But... And we all can... You know, and we all can contribute to that. Like, we... But, but that brings up the point of, it's not... Science is not an individual accomplishment, right? Science is a, is a set of tools that people can add to their toolkit of how to, you know, of how to do things. But it's just part of the, it's just part of the heart of the story, a- a- and part of the solution. So I think you're right. Like, you have to have, or it helps to have these, to, to embrace the fact that there are other aspects of the human condition that aren't purely empirical and that aren't purely scientific. And oftentimes, those are the things that make life worth living. And, um, it doesn't mean... It's not, like, a black and white. It doesn't mean, like, we should reject science. I mean, I think we're very... You and I wouldn't be having this conversation (laughs) over the internet, you know, thousands of miles apart if it wasn't for advances in science and technology. And so I think you can simultaneously appreciate that and champion that and also recognize that that's just part of the, part of the picture, that there's a fuller picture and one that involves, um... You know, the head versus heart metaphor is a, is a good example. It's like we need both, right? The head, you know... This is a metaphor obviously because all of our feelings and stuff come out of our brain too, but people naturally understand this metaphor. They, they, they say, "Follow your heart." Or, you, you know, "Use your head, follow your heart," kind of... This kind of metaphor. So we... You know, it, it's worth recognizing that both are important. The, the heart makes life worth, wor- worth living. It g-... You know. It makes science worth pursuing, right? It makes... The heart is what makes you say, "You know what? I want to cure diseases. I want to make the world more comfortable for people." Um, but if it's just focused on... You know, if you're just entirely focused on science and not the value that it, tha- that it provides to making actual peoples' lives better (laughs) , um, then I do think you, you, you lose something. And again, I just think a lot of people that have this identity, like it's an identity, like, "I'm a science person" (laughs) and I, I, I think it would be helpful if we got away from that. It's like, no, you know, like it's not, it's not a defining characteristic. Like, it's a job, and science is a set of tools. It's a s- it's, it's a methodology that we use to i- interrogate nature and reality. It's not, it's not like a, a personal identity, um, that, you know, that m- that just makes every decision you (laughs) you've ever made rational. It's just part of what, it's just part of what... It's part of the toolkit of what we do to, to advance human progress and to, you know, to make life better.

   14. CWChris Williamson1:13:13

       Clay Rutledge, ladies and gentlemen. Thanks for coming on, man. Where should people go if they want to check out more of your stuff?

   15. CRClay Routledge1:13:20

       Well, I have a website that's just clayrutledge.com, um, they can check there. I am on Twitter. I think it's just @clayrutledge. Um, yeah, those are probably the best, the best places.

   16. CWChris Williamson1:13:33

       Thanks very much for today.

   17. CRClay Routledge1:13:35

       Thank you.

10. 1:13:36 – 1:13:56

    Where to Find Dr Clay Routledge

    1. CRClay Routledge1:13:36

       It was great to have this conversation with you.

    2. CWChris Williamson1:13:38

       (music) Thank you very much for tuning in. If you enjoyed that, then press here for a selection of the best clips from the podcast over the last few months. And don't forget to subscribe. It makes me very happy indeed. Peace.

Episode duration: 1:13:57