EVERY SPOKEN WORD
130 min read · 26,259 words- 0:00 – 13:25
Why It’s So Hard to Reach the Top
- CWChris Williamson
you were talking about work-life balance and your-
- RURuss
Yeah [chuckles]
- CWChris Williamson
-inability to have it.
- RURuss
[chuckles] Yeah. Um, man, I mean, balance is just, it's a luxury now, it's a privilege. You can't have it on the way up. It just has to be full, hundred percent commitment to the grind. So now I'm trying to have more balance, but the guilt is there, you know, still. Like, [chuckles] it's just that PTSD-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm
- RURuss
... of like, I shouldn't be relaxing right now, you know?
- CWChris Williamson
It's a difficult question to work out. You know, almost everybody's on the come-up, but by design, very few people make it or have made it.
- RURuss
Yes.
- CWChris Williamson
Right? There's way more people that want to be there than are there. Uh, and that means, first off, that it's a sort of an icky situation because the total addressable market for people who need to learn how to t- put their, take their foot off the gas is basically zero, and the total addressable market for people that n- could do with working harder to achieve their dreams is still pretty high. But, um, a good question to ask yourself is, okay, let's say that you achieve the things that you want to achieve. You get to where you're supposed to get to.
- RURuss
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
What then?
- RURuss
That is- [chuckles]
- CWChris Williamson
Then what do you do?
- RURuss
... That has been beating my ass for, like, two years, that question. Because h- here's kind of w- uh, like, how I thought about it, is the thing I'm scared of now is not having a horizon, you know? Because in the past, my present self was not my future self. There was a huge gap between who I was and who I wanted to become, and that gap, the distance, is what birthed the hunger and the velocity.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- RURuss
You know? And now my present self is my past's future self. Like, the gap has collapsed, so the hunger has nowhere, like, obvious to point. And it's scary because, you know, it's not really a fear of complacency. It's a fear of, like, directional ambiguity. You know what I mean? And, you know, kinda to touch on what you said, where the market for people trying to get here versus people who are here, it's obviously huge, but a huge difference. But the engine that was driving me, and I think drives most people at the beginning, is here's this person that I wanna become, that I can imagine, and that engine works until you arrive, and most people never arrive, so they never have to confront this. But, like, high achievers have to confront it, and it's just honest, you know? And so now it's trying to figure out, like, not necessarily the new dream, but sort of like relocalizing the hunger, trying to find a new domain for it. I think that's why, to be honest, therapy has been so activating for me and interesting because the ambition, like, moved houses to this internal landscape-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm
- RURuss
... where I can, like, attack the internal world. Because at the beginning, the external stuff is such a motivator: career, status, metrics-
- CWChris Williamson
Validation.
- RURuss
Yeah, all that. But then you get it, and you're like, "Well, I can't keep tricking my brain into thinking that I want another plaque or another hundred grand," [chuckles] you know what I mean? Or whatever it is. It's this internal world is so fascinating because it's untapped land. It's new terrain.
- CWChris Williamson
New games.
- RURuss
Yeah, it's new, it's... But the issue with it is there's no finish line. So it's real-
- CWChris Williamson
And there's no metrics of progress.
- RURuss
There's no metric of pro- so it's real easy to just get lost in myself and end up just doing this endless self-monitoring rumination-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- RURuss
-and saying, "All right, hold on." [chuckles]
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah. Well, you apply the same hypervigilance and obsession that you do to finding the perfect kick drum to working out your relationship with your parents.
- RURuss
Exactly.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- RURuss
And it's like, maybe you need to relax today, [chuckles] not-
- 13:25 – 22:18
What Makes Appreciating Success So Hard?
- CWChris Williamson
"It is so much more fun to be a little richer than you were yesterday than merely to be rich," Alice Wellington Rollins.
- RURuss
[chuckles] It's so real.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah. I mean, dude, Andrew Tate, fucking the, the philosopher, A. Tate-
- RURuss
[laughing]
- CWChris Williamson
... uh, said, said, uh, uh, "Having things isn't fun. Getting things is fun."
- RURuss
100%.
- CWChris Williamson
Yep. And unfortunately, what this means is, uh, it's that Luke Combs, uh, fucking "Bellied" song. Uh, "If the higher I climb is the further I fall, then why love anything at all?"
- RURuss
[whistles] Wow!
- CWChris Williamson
You know, uh, last week I found out that this is the eighth biggest podcast in the world. I'm the eighth biggest podcaster in the world as of last week's Spotify charts, and it was fantastic, and one of my friends, who is, like, the new business development manager for me, rang and was like: "Dude, I'm so fucking happy for you, but you do know what this means next year?" And I was like: "Yep, it means that we've got to be number eight, or number seven, or number six, or-
- RURuss
Or I'm a loser, and-
- CWChris Williamson
... I'm gonna fucking hate it." [chuckles]
- RURuss
Yeah, right.
- CWChris Williamson
But if I'd been 12th this year and didn't know where I charted-
- RURuss
Yeah
- CWChris Williamson
... it wouldn't have mattered.
- RURuss
Right.
- CWChris Williamson
So-
- RURuss
Right
- CWChris Williamson
... there is a particular type of mindset that you have, and learning to relinquish that, learning to be like, "Oh, just fuck it," it's just nice.
- RURuss
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
It's just nice to have that.
- RURuss
Clap for yourself.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah. But the difference between, uh, and this is one of the great advantages that nobody ever realizes as it's happening, when you're on the climb, it is easier at the beginning and the middle of your journey, within whatever it is, even if it's just mastery, even if it's internal mastery. When you start your therapy journey-
- RURuss
Mm
- CWChris Williamson
... look at all of the low-hanging fruit about, "I never realized that my parents did that, and that was strange," and, "I never realized I had that conversation with my sister that was formative, and it made me think about the thing..." In the beginning of your journey, the noob gains are real, and all of this stuff's just, you're accumulating it all the time, so progress comes relatively easily.
- RURuss
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
But as you get better at anything, and this is unfortunately both true for internal and external metrics-
- RURuss
Yeah
- CWChris Williamson
... you start going to the gym, you gain strength every session. After 10 years of training, you gain strength every, like, three months.
- RURuss
Yep.
- 22:18 – 30:50
Why Do We Blame Our Parents For Our Flaws?
- CWChris Williamson
I saw you, uh, give a break in the middle of one of your performances and said, "I just want to say every parent is gonna fuck their kids up a little bit, man."
- RURuss
[chuckles]
- CWChris Williamson
You get to an age where you can't keep blaming them.
- RURuss
Yeah. Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
What's that mean to you?
- RURuss
Um, [sighs] yeah, I think naturally when you start therapy, you start descending into the root of a lot of your patterns, and it obviously starts with childhood. And the natural inclination is to, like, point the finger and be like, "Why would you- why? What?" But the reality is, they didn't have the tools, you know? Like, I look back and I'm like: My dad was probably my age when he had me. You know what I mean? I'm like, [scoffs] like, I would be-
- CWChris Williamson
This retard?
- RURuss
[chuckles] Yeah. I was like, what? There's no shot that I would do well. I would do well now compared to what I would do five years ago. But yeah, I just had to get to a place of understanding that I love my parents, and there's also just things that they didn't mean to pass on to me in behaviors and, you know, um, yeah, just habits that they didn't mean to pass on, but they did. And I gotta unlearn them, and everyone's parents are gonna like, you know, unknowingly pass on unhealthy shit. But it's like at a certain age, you have to... I have to father myself, you know?
- CWChris Williamson
Can I read you an essay?
- RURuss
Please.
- CWChris Williamson
So I wrote this a couple of weeks ago.
- RURuss
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
"The parental attribution error.
- RURuss
[chuckles]
- CWChris Williamson
We love blaming our parents-
- RURuss
Mm
- CWChris Williamson
... practically a rite of passage in modern psychology, but there's a double standard buried in the trend. We attribute what's broken in us to our upbringing, while claiming what's strong in us is ours alone.
- RURuss
Mm.
- CWChris Williamson
Call it the parental attribution error, like the fundamental attribution error, where we blame others' actions on their character but excuse our own by pointing to circumstance. Like, uh, "I cut that guy off in traffic 'cause I'm late. He cut me off because he's a dick."
- RURuss
[chuckles]
- CWChris Williamson
It's a skewed way of assigning credit and blame.... We externalize the bad and internalize the good. We're q- quick to blame and slow to credit. You say you're anxiously attached because no one held you when you needed it, but isn't your ability to be alone in your emotions and to endure discomfort quietly also forged in the same crucible? You blame your parents for pushing you too hard in school, convinced it made you perfectionistic and neurotic. But when was the last time you acknowledged that same pressure gave you ambition, discipline, and drive?
- RURuss
Mm.
- CWChris Williamson
You point to a childhood where mistakes weren't tolerated as the reason you fear failure, but what about your meticulousness, your standards, your refusal to phone it in? You complain that no one ever asked you what you wanted growing up, but could that also be why you're so tuned in to what everyone else needs?
- RURuss
Mm.
- CWChris Williamson
You say your low self-worth comes from your never being praised, but isn't that the same fuel that makes you outwork everyone around you? You trace your conflict avoidance back to all the shouting at home, but isn't that also where your talent for de-escalation and an emotional radar came from? You chalk up your hyper-independence to not being able to trust anyone, but isn't that also what made you capable, adaptable, and calm under pressure? You say you're emotionally guarded because no one took your feelings seriously, but isn't that also why you're steady when the people around you fall apart?
- RURuss
Mm.
- CWChris Williamson
You've labeled yourself a people pleaser because you had to keep the peace at home, but maybe that's also where your social fluency and emotional intelligence were born. You blame your poor boundaries on parents who didn't respect yours, but isn't that also why you're so careful to not cross anyone else's? You say your fear of being a burden comes from being treated like one, but isn't that the same fear that now makes you reliable, disciplined, and impossible to disappoint? You attribute your sensitivity to criticism to all of the judgment you grew up with, but isn't that also what makes you thoughtful, receptive, and serious about getting better? You say your nervous system never relaxes because your home was unpredictable, but isn't that also why you're perceptive, quick-thinking, and never caught off guard? The traits you're most ashamed of are often just the dark side of something light. Your sharp edges didn't appear out of nowhere. They're often the by-product of something useful, a strength turned up too high, or a gift handled without guidance. Think about a sword: powerful, precise, designed to cut through resistance. But if it's double-edged, and most strengths are, then sometimes it nicks you on the backswing. That doesn't mean that you throw the sword away. It means that you learn how to hold it properly, because most traits worth having come with risk. The truth is messier than a single cause. Every trait is entangled. Wounds and gifts often share a root.
- RURuss
Mm.
- CWChris Williamson
The self-reliance you're proud of may come from the same childhood where you couldn't rely on anyone. The confidence you carry may have started as a defense over ever feeling small or dismissed again. Even your drive to succeed may be rooted in the fear of not being good enough.
- RURuss
Mm-hmm.
- 30:50 – 40:55
Never Dismiss Your Internal Struggle
- CWChris Williamson
I've heard you talk about people dismissing internal struggle-
- RURuss
Mm.
- CWChris Williamson
- well, people only validate struggles that they understand.
- RURuss
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Uh, there's a line from Oliver Burkeman that says: "Just because someone carries it well, doesn't mean the weight isn't heavy."
- RURuss
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
I think it's so great.
- RURuss
God.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- RURuss
Yeah, and I think with, um... I think with men especially, you know, the whole cliché, like, we've been taught to hide it and to carry it alone, and that's what makes you be a man, is carrying all your shit and keeping it under wraps, you know? Um, and I also like, there is truth and validity to the fact that material struggle is vital. You know, having food, water, and shelter is necessary, but there are so many internal struggles that are harder to see, and it doesn't mean that they're not real, you know? And I think, I think everyone is just so quick to get into this, uh, [chuckles] like, struggle competition with people.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- RURuss
Like, "Yeah, but I had to go through this," but there's always gonna be someone who can say, "That's cute. I had to go through this." It doesn't mean that your shit isn't real, didn't have... It, it doesn't mean it didn't have an impact, didn't affect you. Um, yeah, I don't- it's, it's, it's so, uh, divisive to me.
- CWChris Williamson
Well, it's an interesting one because, and th- this speaks to your age and stage of development, two things can be true at once. Many people who don't deserve the term victim-
- RURuss
Mm-hmm
- CWChris Williamson
... use it as a way to gain leverage, and status, and accolade.
- RURuss
Mm.
- CWChris Williamson
And also, lots of people are denying just how fucking hard their life was.
- RURuss
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Um, so Rogan's got this idea where he says that the worst thing that's ever happened to you is the worst thing that's ever happened to you.
- RURuss
[laughing]
- CWChris Williamson
So if, if, if the worst day of your life-
- RURuss
Love that
- CWChris Williamson
... is somebody misgendering you in a Starbucks, then that's a pretty big deal. But if the worst day of your life is you running into battle at the fucking Battle of the Somme, that is also- and everything then becomes kind of relative to that. And it's also there's a recency bias.
- RURuss
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
There's a, "Well, life's been pretty good recently"-
- RURuss
Yeah
- CWChris Williamson
... and you begin to get a bit of sort of like, you know, velvet, uh, nightgown syndrome-
- RURuss
[chuckles] Yes
- CWChris Williamson
... where you think, "Well, this stuff doesn't really need to be that," and then you get hit by something and you realize, "Ah, me 10 years ago would have dealt with this more differently, and now-
- RURuss
Yeah
- 40:55 – 50:49
Why It’s Brave to Take Life Seriously
- CWChris Williamson
Talk to me about why it's okay to take your life seriously.
- RURuss
Um, because I think people downplay their own passion and zeal for wanting to make a dream come true, out of fear of embarrassment, fear of coming off cringey because you really want that. It's that whole, like, "I'm gonna downplay what I want, so that if I don't get it, I can just say, 'I didn't even really want it anyway.'" You do want it, and that's okay. That's why I love, like, Timothée Chalamet coming out and saying, "I wanna be great. I'm in pursuit of greatness." That's awesome. All this fake modesty, like, too cool shit, I fucking hate. I think it's fake, and I think that that's just- it's posturing, it's image management. You're trying to be relatable. It's not real, though. Like, I love hearing people claim that, "No, I'm trying to be the biggest artist in the world. I want to be the best. I think I'm the best." I love that-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm
- RURuss
... 'cause we all, we all have something we desperately want, you know? And I think it's okay for you to be serious about getting that. I think that there's times where you shouldn't take yourself and certain things too serious.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- RURuss
But it's okay to take your life serious. This is your life. You're not gonna take this serious? [chuckles] If not this, then what? You know? Strange to me. It's very strange.
- CWChris Williamson
I think seriousness gets a bad rap-
- RURuss
Yeah
- CWChris Williamson
... um, because it's seen as, uh, stern, uh, not fun-having-
- RURuss
Mm
- CWChris Williamson
... too rigid-
- RURuss
Mm-hmm
- CWChris Williamson
... too contrived. Um, and yeah, totally-... effortless achievement, uh, from the outside-
- RURuss
Yeah
- CWChris Williamson
- doesn't trigger many of the defense mechanisms, um, because, "Oh, my God, he must just be so talented." You know, like, how amazing! And he's not sort of shoving it in our face, and he didn't say what he was gonna do before, and, and so on and so forth after. But I think taking things seriously and the bravery to take something seriously is, uh, like a, a wonderful skill to develop. Uh, earnestness as well.
- RURuss
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
To think about, uh, seriousness in your idea, I think is to do with saying what you want-
- RURuss
Yeah
- CWChris Williamson
... frankly, and showing the level of effort and commitment that you're prepared to put in to go and get it-
- RURuss
Yeah
- CWChris Williamson
- might be a good way to look at it.
- RURuss
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
But earnestness would be the, uh, same but directed inwardly toward emotions.
- RURuss
Mm.
- CWChris Williamson
So earnestness would be the bravery to take your emotions seriously.
- RURuss
Mm.
- CWChris Williamson
And, uh, I like earnest people.
- RURuss
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
I, you know, I think your point is basically that, um, detachment is self-protection.
- RURuss
Yeah, a hundred percent.
- 50:49 – 59:36
Who Decides the Reputation You Deserve?
- CWChris Williamson
This is a, this is a good one. So this woman went on a pod recently. I'm gonna play this clip for you.
- RURuss
Please.
- CWChris Williamson
This woman went on a pod recently and, uh, gave a, a really wonderful insight about, uh, the relationship of, um, how much reputation think- people think that you deserve.
- RURuss
Mm. [chuckles]
- CWChris Williamson
I thought this was so cool.
- RURuss
People have an assumption of the level of celebration you deserve.
- CWChris Williamson
Interesting.
- RURuss
Right? Like, how good you are and how, um, much reputation you deserve.
- CWChris Williamson
How do people decide that?
- RURuss
Let's get to that, 'cause you, you, you wanna try to engineer it.
- CWChris Williamson
Yep.
- RURuss
If you're above that-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm
- RURuss
... people think you're overrated-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm
- RURuss
... and they wanna bring you down, and they don't like you. If they perceive that you're below that, then you're underrated. Like, underrated is a compliment.
- CWChris Williamson
Right.
- RURuss
Why is it, why is it a good thing to be poorly rated? In my mind, it's sort of like you fumbled. Like, what do you mean you're not well-rated? Like, go fix it.
- CWChris Williamson
That's an interesting point.
- RURuss
But underrated-
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah
- RURuss
... is a compliment; overrated is an insult. You would think that being highly rated is good, but overrated is not. So people wanna fill that delta.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- RURuss
If they think you're underrated, they'll try to bring you up. So this is, like, what people... We- we'll get to this, too, but, uh, this is what people have been saying about Google Gemini.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- RURuss
It's underrated. It's like the, it's high status to say-
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah, it's a compliment, but it's-
- RURuss
It's a compliment, but it's also, like, seen as insightful and valuable and useful to point out that Google Gemini is good.
- CWChris Williamson
That's true. Yes, people feel good when they make that point.
- RURuss
Yeah. They're like, "I'm pointing this out, so I'm, I'm righting some kind of wrong in the universe. I'm filling that imbalance."
- 59:36 – 1:17:11
The Fear of Embarrassment
- CWChris Williamson
It's a, it's a strange challenge that people have when it comes to, do I, do I want to criticize this thing because I genuinely have an issue with it? Do I want to criticize this thing because it's triggered in me something that I feel uncomfortable about?
- RURuss
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
And, um, the idea that being a black sheep is still being a sheep.
- RURuss
Mm.
- CWChris Williamson
And just because you're against something doesn't mean that you're in the minority. It doesn't mean it's a more sophisticated position.
- RURuss
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
You know, like, uh, y- you, you don't really like anything?
- RURuss
Yeah, right.
- CWChris Williamson
You, you, you regularly dislike most things.
- RURuss
[laughing] Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Like, what a sophisticated position to hold.
- RURuss
Right.
- CWChris Williamson
Congratulations, dude. You must have such-
- RURuss
I was-
- CWChris Williamson
... refined taste.
- RURuss
I was just talking about this, man. Like, this whole community of people who hate anything that's popular because it's popular, not because they actually don't like it. They just don't like it because it's popular, whether it's an artist, whether it's shoes, or whatever. It's like sometimes, not all the time, but sometimes things are popular because they're good, and sometimes things are not popular because they're not good. Not all the time, but sometimes.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- RURuss
And it just, it's people who, who feel like they, they get to have some sort of autonomy-... and some sort of, like, leverage over the rest of society. Like-
- CWChris Williamson
That's-
- RURuss
-you guys like that.
- CWChris Williamson
That's the underrated, overrated thing again, right?
- RURuss
Right.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah. Uh, yeah, it is funny, th- there's sort of two camps of people. There's, uh, one who are creators that are underground, and, "Oh, dude, you know, it's just my, my work's so sophisticated." [chuckles]
- RURuss
"No one gets it!" [laughing]
- CWChris Williamson
They just- yeah, they just don't get it. It's like, well, maybe it's just not that good.
- RURuss
No kidding. [chuckles]
- CWChris Williamson
Um, but just because something is big doesn't necessarily mean it's good, but on average-
- RURuss
For sure
- CWChris Williamson
... it, it, it typically is. Like, people vote with their feet, and there's a lot of competition out there.
- RURuss
Yeah. [chuckles]
- 1:17:11 – 1:23:32
Is Male Worth Tied to Competence?
- CWChris Williamson
the first co- I've talked so much about sex differences-
- RURuss
Yeah
- CWChris Williamson
... and, um, the first conversation I ever had this year where someone just called it out-
- RURuss
Mm
- CWChris Williamson
... direct, and it's the first time that anyone's ever done it. I thought it was so great. I was having a conversation with a guy who wrote a book about, uh, the female orgasm.
- RURuss
Okay.
- CWChris Williamson
And he was basically saying that as far as he could see, the female orgasm is a selection mechanism, that, uh, it is, uh, a physiological, embodied way of the woman's desire responding to how she perceives her mate.
- RURuss
Mm.
- CWChris Williamson
And I basically mentioned that, well, this feels a little bit ruthless, that guys are sort of being judged in this manner that they don't really get to control. They just sort of are who they are, and they've worked on themselves to the extent that they do, and they turn up and, you know, this, this- whereas for women, they don't have the same type of judgment. Like, it's... Men are more mechanical-
- RURuss
Mm
- CWChris Williamson
... I'd say, in that regard. And instead of equivocating, instead of needing to say, "Well, you know, because men have got it in," he went, "No, you're right. Yeah, yeah, that it's, it's tough, and that's the way it is."
- RURuss
[laughing]
- CWChris Williamson
Women, women have this particular type of, uh, blessing or curse or judgment or ability to scrutinize or bestow, uh, status or take it away w- from, uh, from a guy, uh, in the same way as is true here, which is I think that you just need to accept, as a man, yeah, your-
- RURuss
Mm-hmm
- CWChris Williamson
... value to the world is going to be tightly tied to your competence.
- RURuss
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
And if-
- RURuss
100%
- CWChris Williamson
... if your competence seems-
- RURuss
Well put
- CWChris Williamson
... to be dipping, the world is going to love you a little bit less. They're going to need you a little bit less, and it-
- RURuss
That's why you can't rely on that.
- CWChris Williamson
And it's also why you need a fucking partner who sees outside of that.
- RURuss
Mm.
- CWChris Williamson
Like, if you have... I've got, uh, a couple of friends who are in relationships with, I don't know what you would call it, like, high-... highly status sensitive women. One of them-
- RURuss
That is such a gentle, polite [laughing] -
- CWChris Williamson
Gen- gentle way, but I, I'm, I'm really trying to use, 'cause what, one-
- RURuss
It is- [laughing]
- CWChris Williamson
Well, look, o- one of them, one of them is Diana Fleischman, who is a-
- RURuss
Okay
- 1:23:32 – 1:29:45
You Don’t Need to White Knuckle Your Emotions
- CWChris Williamson
[whooshing sound] One of the wildest things is this year I've probably been more, uh, below the neck than I ever have.
- RURuss
Mm.
- CWChris Williamson
It's a, a journey that I kind of regret. Regret... I hate previous me for embarking on it, because it's really fucking hard.
- RURuss
Mm.
- CWChris Williamson
But I think future me will be proud.
- RURuss
Okay.
- CWChris Williamson
But at the moment, I'm in the valley of, like, just eating shit with emotions.
- RURuss
[laughing]
- CWChris Williamson
Um, but one of the things that I've noticed this year, more people have said that they love me than ever before. More friends have said-
- RURuss
Wow
- CWChris Williamson
... you know, just, "Guys, dudes, like, I fucking love you, man." And then, like, you know, just, like, it comes out of you sometimes-
- RURuss
Yeah
- CWChris Williamson
... sometimes. Maybe it's 'cause we're getting a bit older, maybe it's because-
- RURuss
Sure
- CWChris Williamson
... we're part of this movement. Maybe it's because I've released, like, 30 podcasts this year on fucking emotions, and they've all been listening to them, and it's- g- I've red pilled them-
- RURuss
Easy to cry for. [laughing]
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah, yeah, I've red pilled them with the same kryptonite that I red pilled myself with, and now we're all in the valley of despair together. I'm not too sure.
- RURuss
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
But, um, more m- more of my friends have said that they love me this year than ever before, and I, I, I just have to fucking assume that that's because they actually got to see me a bit.
- RURuss
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
They genuinely got to see me.
- RURuss
Scary, though.
- CWChris Williamson
You know, I'm backstage at some show, and I'm r- just in the fucking trenches. Like, everything, everything, everything, everything that could have gone wrong has gone wrong.
- RURuss
Mm.
- CWChris Williamson
And, uh, d- one of the shows, two weeks ago, one of my boys, like, hugged me for two minutes, must have been two minutes, and the other one said a prayer while we were there. And then I go out, did the show. Show went good. Came back, and I was like, "Fuck!" Like, I borrowed his nervous system.
- RURuss
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Like, I fucking... Like, mine was not... Mine wasn't robust enough, so, like, he fucking lent me some of his peace.
- RURuss
Yeah. Wow!
- CWChris Williamson
So great.
- RURuss
What would you do in that moment if they're not there? What does that look like?
- 1:29:45 – 1:44:41
How to Balance Vulnerability and Strength
- CWChris Williamson
How do you balance vulnerability and strength? You're in an industry which is, um, not exactly renowned for its-
- RURuss
Yeah
- CWChris Williamson
... uh, acceptance of male fragility-
- RURuss
Yeah
- CWChris Williamson
... and inner work.
- RURuss
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
How do you think about balancing those?
- RURuss
Um, [exhales] it's scary, and it's getting less scary because I'm doing it, so naturally, I'm, you know, kinda disarming the fear by just facing it.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- RURuss
It's scary because I know that not only is the genre that I'm in sort of resistant to vulnerability, but the audience of men [chuckles] are resistant to vulnerability. So, you know, I, I think my music and my career has gone through this transition where I would say before Santiago, this album that I put out in 2023, everything before then was me about conquering the external terrain. And then Santiago marked the shift and this, like, line of demarcation where it was, "Well, now I'm going inward," you know? "Let me explore this." And now the most recent album is sort of the integration. That's what I'm working on now 'cause, again, what I said earlier, I don't want to just endlessly self-monitor and just stay in here.
- CWChris Williamson
Yep.
- RURuss
You know? I do have to figure out what's the new dream now, you know? Um, but-... I'm just a very big believer in being vulnerable and confronting the parts of you that are, you know, that you've been trying to act like don't exist. That's real strength. I don't think you're strong for being scared to face yourself, you know? And I think I even said it on this song, Clue, that I just put out, like, a couple weeks ago, where, um, I said, "The monsters-- I'm making meds with monsters that you're scared to face," you know? "And the demons you pretended don't exist, I'm fighting publicly." It's like that to me, what I'm doing, you know, is courageous, and I know it is because this is the kind of shit that I was scared to do in private. I was scared to sit with the parts of me that I didn't like in private. I'm telling you about them on a song. You know, I'm not rapping about someone else's life. [chuckles] This is my shit. You know what I mean? This is my life. These are songs that are sparking conversations with my parents and family members and like, "Yo, what?" You know, like, this is real life. I'm fighting this shit publicly in hopes that, one, it's because it's cathartic for me, and I need to, and it's exciting for me to just talk about. It's what I'm passionate about. But two, it's the hopes that a couple more years of doing this, the men in my fan base will be like, "Okay, I can do it now," you know?
- CWChris Williamson
You've given them permission.
- RURuss
Right. Right.
- CWChris Williamson
You've given them permission, and the scariest thing is someone who does that permissionlessly.
- RURuss
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Right, there was no permission to do that-
- RURuss
Yeah
- CWChris Williamson
... uh, or fewer role models, fewer archetypes.
- RURuss
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Uh, is there a verse of yours that still resonates with you sort of the most deeply, this huge, massive back catalog of yours?
- RURuss
Hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
Is this something that you, you come back to as a philosophy lots?
- RURuss
Wow, I've never been asked that. Shit! I have recency bias, though. It's just whatever the most recent song is.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- RURuss
Um, probably Clue, because Clue is the first song where I have said what I've been trying to say for years, which is: you just don't have a clue about what it's like to be me. And I didn't know how to articulate it without sounding like whining about success, you know? And so I was very, um, intentional about not, not making it sound like that, not talking about anything material, really.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- RURuss
Um, but, you know, the second verse is, "I resent your audacity. You can't last as me, you spineless fucker. You can't hold your life together, let alone the lives of others." So who you talking to? Like, and it goes into this whole thing about just like, "I don't resent you. I resent your audacity that you think you know what this is." You don't, and that's okay. And what I tell people is, sometimes your level of understanding should just be that you don't understand.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- RURuss
And that's got to be enough.
- 1:44:41 – 2:01:43
Will We Be In Pursuit of the Dream Forever?
- CWChris Williamson
there's an idea called the Red Queen effect.
- RURuss
Mm.
- CWChris Williamson
I don't think anyone's ever talked about this, at least not in music, which is crazy because it's a fucking sick idea. So in Alice in Wonderland-
- RURuss
Mm-hmm
- CWChris Williamson
... um, Alice is running around a tree-
- RURuss
Mm
- CWChris Williamson
... and, uh, she runs faster and faster and faster around the tree, but she starts moving more slowly.
- RURuss
Mm.
- CWChris Williamson
There's a line from the Red Queen where she says, "You see, my dear, you now have to run as fast as you can just to same, stay in the same place."
- RURuss
Oh, shit.
- CWChris Williamson
I think that's really cool. Yeah, it's the, the classic full calendar day, and now you need to become more efficient, and you need an assistant to take on the extra calls, and you've got to do the, the... And before you know it, in order to just stay in the same place, you have to work as hard as you ever have.
- RURuss
Fuck! [chuckles] That's why the idea of climbing another mountain is fun.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- RURuss
Because it, I, I kinda alluded to, uh, when you're cutting weight versus bulking versus maintenance. Maintenance sucks for me because there's no big change happening. Cutting, you see weight flying off, or bulking, you see weight flying on, and to your point, it's just, it, it gets exhausting having to exert so much energy just to maintain.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah. Yeah, because you set yourself a, a pace when the fuel was different.
- RURuss
Mm.
- CWChris Williamson
And, you know, this is another Joe Hudson thing, where he says, "When you become successful, your job is not to work hard; your job is to have great ideas." [laughing]
- RURuss
Wow.
- CWChris Williamson
And i- i- if, if your goal is to make it, and then you do make it, and you're still punishing yourself just as much as you were in the beginning, you've still got that sort of come-up energy. In many ways-
- RURuss
Mm-hmm
- CWChris Williamson
... that's, uh, compelling. It, it's inspiring to people.
- RURuss
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
It feels grassroots-
- RURuss
Yeah
- CWChris Williamson
... and sort of upward aiming and noble. But so much of that is you being terrified that if... A few things, if people see you take your foot off the gas, maybe you'll become irrelevant, or if people see you take your foot off the gas, they'll think that you've, like, become a, a bourgeois-
- RURuss
Yeah
- CWChris Williamson
... luxur- luxuriating-
- RURuss
Yeah
- CWChris Williamson
... like, uh, um, incumbent, right? You're like a, the, you're a nepo baby, but you're the father and the child.
- RURuss
[laughing] Yes. Yes, that's the-- the real fear is that it's, I'm gonna lose relevance, and the only way to find out if I can be one of those artists who can go away and come back and not is by doing it-
- 2:01:43 – 2:12:08
Why Surrendering to Creativity Changes Everything
- CWChris Williamson
where does your sense of self-worth come from then? I think that that's the big question that people-- you know, lots of people that listen to your music and listen to my show will become successful, and they will face a question that's not too dissimilar to this, which is, "Fuck, I thought that this thing was the answer to my problems. It's not."
- RURuss
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
... am I going to keep eating more of the food that I know doesn't hydrate me in a desperate attempt to think that it will? Or am I gonna turn around and try and find where this sort of problem comes from? And that's the therapy thing.
- RURuss
I think in the meantime, I just keep doing the work. I keep making decisions.
- CWChris Williamson
What does that look like to you?
- RURuss
Well, for me, just learning that the fruits of my labor, that whole saying-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- RURuss
... the labor's the fruit, you know? And so while I try to figure out what the fuck to do and where to go and where to point my ambition and hunger and where, where to get a charge from in the new dream, I'm gonna at least keep my feet moving and keep doing the work of my artistry, because that is still a huge sense of fulfillment for me.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- RURuss
To still make a song, to have an idea, turn nothing into something, to execute an idea. For it to sound like this in my head, and then it comes out sounding like that, is still extremely rewarding. It's visceral-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm
- RURuss
... when it happens, and so it's been a huge support system for me, my, my creative side. Because while I try to figure everything else out, at least I have sustenance from this thing still-
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah
- RURuss
... you know, without any metrics. I always tell people, if I make what I wanna make, the song is a success. It has to be.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- RURuss
I can't keep living and dying by the industry's metrics. As existential as it feels to look at those numbers, I can't play that game. I have to change the metrics of success to: Did I make what I want?
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- RURuss
Did I put out and share what I want, and did I share it in the way I wanted to share it?
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- RURuss
And when I wanted to, and all that. That creative freedom and creative execution has to be my metric for success.
- CWChris Williamson
It feels like authenticity.
- RURuss
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
But the problem there is, and this-
- RURuss
Like alignment is the new reward, you know?
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah, congruence.
- RURuss
Yeah, exactly.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah, there's a, a, a massive problem with audience capture that people don't realize. Th- throwing red meat to your audience, making what you think that they want to hear, et cetera, et cetera. You know, it's the, the YouTuber or podcaster that just starts beef with anybody they can because-
- RURuss
Such a-- I love how you just said that: throwing red meat to your audience.
- CWChris Williamson
[chuckles]
- RURuss
It's so... I love that. It's so true.
- 2:12:08 – 2:12:54
What’s Next for Russ?
- CWChris Williamson
Russ, ladies and gentlemen. Dude, you're awesome.
- RURuss
Thank you, man.
- CWChris Williamson
Where should people go? What can they expect next?
- RURuss
Um, what do I have next? More music to combat the [chuckles] anxiety I have-
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah, yeah
- RURuss
... of being forgotten. [chuckles]
- CWChris Williamson
Yep. Yep.
- RURuss
Yeah, um, music, uh, I got a movie coming out in, um, hopefully, like, in the spring of next year, which is exciting.
- CWChris Williamson
Congratulations.
- RURuss
Yeah, uh, yeah, just catch me spiraling on social media.
- CWChris Williamson
Fuck yeah.
- RURuss
[laughs]
- CWChris Williamson
Appreciate you, man.
- RURuss
Thanks, man. This was incredible. I appreciate you having me, seriously. [mellow music]
- CWChris Williamson
Thank you very much for tuning in, and congratulations for not being so TikTok-brained that you actually made it to the end of a full podcast. Hooray! Uh, maybe another podcast with the one and only Naval Ravikant would also be good for you to watch. That's right.
Episode duration: 2:12:54
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