EVERY SPOKEN WORD
150 min read · 30,026 words- 0:00 – 9:39
The One Rule of Men
- CWChris Williamson
What is the one rule of men?
- CBConnor Beaton
(laughs) The one rule of men is, uh, very similar to the one rule of Fight Club, right? You know, everybody's kind of seen Fight Club. It's like a, a tour de force on masculinity in many ways. Um, but the first rule of Fight Club is you don't talk about Fight Club. And the first rule of men, the one rule of men, is that you don't talk about what it's like to be a man, specifically a man who is suffering or struggling. So if you're having a hard time, the rule is don't talk about it. If you're going through, you know, the, the wringer, your wife's left you, you know, your pickup truck's broke down-
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- CBConnor Beaton
(laughs) ... your, your kids are having a hard time, you're having a hard time at work, you hate your job, um, generally the rule is don't talk about it. And so I think that that's one of the main things that we see a lot of, I see a lot of men battling against. You know, they've sort of been compressed underneath this rule for a long time. I know this was what I went through for a very long time. I grew up in what I call the Texas of Canada. You know, we have big trucks, we got oil, we got guns and cowboys, but it's minus 30 six months out of the year, right? So, um, little, little bit different on, on that front. But (clears throat) I think that one rule is the thing that a lot of men really struggle to get out from underneath, and what it leads to is some type of rock bottom. And I think a lot of men are convinced, uh, again, at least this is, this is my experience, this is the li- the path that I sort of fell down, um, convinced that things aren't actually going to change until they bottom out, because there's nowhere else to go when your version of strength is, "I have to suppress. I have to push things down, my anger, my anxiety, my sadness, my grief, you know, from having the woman that I love leave me," or whatever it is. When you have to suppress and you've been told that if you can push things down long enough, if you can avoid things for long enough, that you will somehow be stronger for it, it, it creates a very strong part of you that is actively working against you. And so we can talk about that in a sec, but that's the one rule of men. And, and man, I love Fight Club. I just gotta say it's, it's such a good movie in so, so many ways.
- CWChris Williamson
Seeking strength through suppression is such a lovely frame, I think, and it so nicely encapsulates what men are doing. And it's the seeking part as well, you know? It, it's, it's grasping for it. It's, it's almost like a wistfully hoping that it's going to appear.
- CBConnor Beaton
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
Like, if, if, if I just push my emotions down enough... And the other thing as well is, it's not all untruth, right? There is a part of male mastery which includes standing up under pressure-
- CBConnor Beaton
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... which includes being able to be a bulwark against difficult things, the vicissitudes of life. You are the one... You know, what's Peterson's piece of advice? Uh, "Be the strongest man at your father's funeral." Right?
- CBConnor Beaton
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
Like that... You know, the, the, there are times for this where it is your job to be emotionally stoic a-and to do this stuff, but as with almost everything taken to an extreme, it ends up becoming a toxin instead of a tonic.
- CBConnor Beaton
Yeah. When, when that modality becomes our way of living, right? This modality of, "I'll gain strength through suppression. I'll gain strength by ignoring the things that I'm... you know, the areas of my life where I'm hurting," right? "The fact that I hate my job or, you know, my relationship is really challenging or going through a hard patch and I can't... don't feel like I can talk about it," or whatever it is, when we buy into that method of trying to develop psychological strength, we are actually weakening ourselves in a very real way. And, and again, like you're saying, that's incredibly true, right? Men have this wonderful blessing and a curse. We are blessed with the capacity and the ability to, to sort of muster up the courage and the strength to push through some of life's greatest challenges. And I think that's... You know, society in many ways and the world that we see today in many ways has been built on the backs and on the shoulders of men who have gone through some really hard times, some really brutally hard times. Um, but again, when that becomes your way of living, all of these other frameworks start to get built to help you cope with the fact that you have no outlet for your pain, for your grief, for your sadness, for your anxieties, for your anger, for your loneliness. And I, I remember in my y- in my 20s, my early 20s, I really... You know, I came out of high school, um, (laughs) I barely graduated high school. I failed grade 12 English, I failed biology. I was more interested in, you know, sneaking out at night and going to parties and hanging out with my girlfriend, and like that's all that I really cared about, right? And so I had to go back and, and, you know, do it over again. But anyway, in my early 20s, I remember working construction. I was working in a gravel pit in northern Alberta. It's like minus 40. I'm doing a night shift from 6:00 PM to 6:00 AM. I hated it, but I needed the money. But at the same time, there was this part of me that was like, "What am I gonna do with the rest of my life? Like, is this it?" You know? "Am I destined to drive a bobcat and shovel gravel, you know, until I die?" And there was this sort of internal sense of anger and frustration and bitterness towards the world and, and towards myself and towards my li- you know, my life in some ways, this kind of victim mentality that we can all get sort of, uh, gripped by. And I think that if I had sort of bit down and just...... stuffed that down, you know? I could have gotten through it, but I probably would have had to drink more than I was comfortable with and smoke more weed than I actually needed and watch more porn. And that was my life at that time, you know? And so, I think that a lot of guys today are doing relatively the same thing, you know? And there's actually just a, a stat, uh, a piece of research that was, uh, that, that came out, I think Professor Galloway posted it, I think you've had him on your show before, and, uh, it was talking about how comfortable our people are with crying. Would you feel uncomfortable crying in front of someone of the same sex? And men between the ages of 18 and 24 said, you know, 60% of them said, "No." You know, like, "I wouldn't feel comfortable. I would feel very uncomfortable crying in front of another man." And so, you know, it's a bit of a double-edged sword. I think a lot of men live under this pressure of, "Is it okay for me to talk about my hardship? Is it okay for me to talk about where I'm struggling truthfully?" And I'll, I'll wrap this up with one, one story. After I bottomed out, and one of the things that, that I've written about is this period of time where I lived at Chateau Walmart, uh, is what I called it, or I lived out of the back of my 2007 Pontiac G5 with wonderful racing stripes and this beautiful fin on the back and chrome wheels. It was really, you know, I'm like 6'2" just jammed in the back seat of this two-door coupe. Uh, after I, you know, spent some time there, uh, after bottoming out, I decided to have some conversations with people in my life and tell them what had been going on. I'd really been struggling, I'd been unfaithful, I got caught cheating, you know, all this stuff has sort of happened in my life. I didn't know what I wanted to do with my career. It all collapsed. And I had a conversation with a buddy of mine who I'd gone to university with, and I sort of laid all the cards out on the table and just told him everything that had been happening. And after telling him what had gone on, there was sort of this awkward pause, 'cause of course I've just sort of like emotionally vomited onto this guy, this poor guy. And, you know, after, after telling me everything, there was this pause and he looked at me and he said, "Thank you." And then he proceeded to tell me that he had tried to take his own life six weeks before this very conversation. And it was a very stark moment, because, uh, I kinda knew everything about him. I knew the scotch he liked to drink and the, you know, the women he liked to date and all the, all the stuff. And it was just this indicator that there was parts of us, there was parts of me as a man that I didn't feel like I could talk about, because I had to create this appearance of strength, but I didn't actually feel strong, right? I felt like an imposter. And he felt like he had to do the same thing, right? That he had to create this appearance that he had all of his shit together and he had his, all his ducks in a row and he was totally fine when in reality, there was parts of both of us that we were incredibly challenged by, parts of our life, parts of our childhood, parts of our, you know, current, uh, existence that we struggled to just talk about. And I think that that's the case for a lot of men, that they are living alone with things in their life, with aspects of their life that they have no idea how to grapple with. And it's a kind of existential aloneness that I think is crippling in a lot of ways, and it doesn't produce the strength that we want, right? When you hear people like Jocko Willink and, and David Goggins, like, they are facing the hardship. They're not saying sequester it away in your life. They're saying confront it, right? So there's no growth, there's no change without confrontation.
- 9:39 – 13:26
Why Is So Much Expected of Men?
- CWChris Williamson
Where do you think this expectation for men is coming from?
- CBConnor Beaton
I think it's coming from a number of places. I think, I think historically from an evolutionary standpoint, life has been very hard (laughs) and we've had to do some incredibly hard things to, you know, to just survive. Uh, I think that that's, that's the nature of our existence. I think to ignore that is, you know, infantile. Um, I think that's part of it. I think socially we sometimes buy into a narrative that we have to be more together, um, more sort of put together than is, is necessary in order to get women's attention, right? There's this notion that if you're a man who is just, you know, supremely put together that that's the ultimate sort of attraction point for a woman. Um, and so I think that's another part of it. And then I think that there's a, uh, I think that a lot of us as men have competition-based relationships where we're subtly competing with one another in the background-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- CBConnor Beaton
... of the relationship. And it doesn't leave a lot of room, right? If you're in competition with somebody, the one thing you don't want them to know about are your weaknesses, right? So if I'm competing with you, even though we might be best friends, we might have known each other for a decade, the last thing that I want you to know if I'm unconsciously competing with you is where I feel weak, is where I'm really struggling.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- CBConnor Beaton
So men are, are more likely to withhold where they're struggling financially or sexually in their relationship or whatever. And then I think the last piece is we're living out the generational, uh, you know, I almost hate to use the word, but we're living out the generational trauma of the World Wars that sort of rocked men globally. You know, who were told to man up, who were told to suck it up and get into the tanks and go and die and get into the planes and go and die, and then came home and, you know, had to switch from killing mode, from this hyper suppression of "I need to survive. I need to do whatever the hell it takes to survive." And then, you know, went home and walked in the front door to their wife and their children that they hadn't seen in a number of years, and then were just expected to go back and mow the lawn and, you know, go sell a, a dishwasher and a, and a dryer and shit like that. I mean, that probably came a couple dec- decades later, but you get the point, right? So I think...I think that that's a, a big part of it. You know, when I look at my grandfather, who was a pilot in World War II, I remember him telling a lot of stories to me as a child. He was a, y- yeah, he was a pilot. You know, of what he saw, what he went through, what he experienced. And he had to live that. You know, he had to live that modality of, "Just do whatever it takes to survive." And it creates a kind of hardness, I think, where, uh, vulnerability and weakness are the enemy, you know? So you don't talk about it, you don't show it, you don't do any of that. But the reality is, is that in any, um, in any strategy, the best, whether it's war strategy or military strategy, the one thing you look at is, "What are our weaknesses? Where are they, objectively?" You know, you really want to know what your weaknesses are and where the, where the enemy, uh, might actually come through. But we've created this kind of narrative, I think, within our culture, where that is, uh, not so much the case. So I think that those are some of the contributing factors, for sure. Um, what are your thoughts?
- CWChris Williamson
Dude, that's a gorgeous conception. It's a fantastic framework to break those things down.
- CBConnor Beaton
Thanks man.
- CWChris Williamson
That's really, really, really impressive.
- 13:26 – 23:14
Men’s Roles in Competition & War
- CWChris Williamson
The competition point, I think, is completely overlooked by men because there is camaraderie in competition. You know, um, all of the guys that work for me, Chase, my YouTube strategist, Dean, my editor that's been with me for six years, um, like we're on the same team. We are completely on the same team. Our values are aligned, our goals are aligned. If they win, I win. If I win, they win. And there's still probably lurking in there somewhere, just men are so... Status is the currency of men, right?
- CBConnor Beaton
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
Fundamentally, it is what we are transacting with. And yeah, I think it's probably there, (laughs) as much as, as much self-work as we try and do to deprogram it, I think it j- I think it just remains. I had this conversation with a friend, um, who does a, a good bit of men's work here in Austin, and, uh, it was the first time I'd actually heard about the name of your book, Men's Work. The first time I'd ever heard that was from, from this guy. And, uh, he'd done, I think he was about to go and do ayahuasca and he'd done a ton of psychotherapy in advance, which I respected, as opposed to just being a spiritual tourist and, and, and jumping in at the deep end. He, he tried to do some of the work at ground zero first. And he had this conversation with his therapist and he, he sort of kept going and kept going, and maybe it was an MDMA-assisted thing before he went away to do the, the ayahuasca. And he found that he'd been constantly comparing other men to him, mostly in a derogatory fashion, mostly inside of his own head. So, he would see another man out at dinner that's his wife's friend or is somebody that he's known for ages and catching up with, or somebody new or whatever, and he would just have this very, like, vitriolic comparison going on-
- CBConnor Beaton
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
... inside of his mind. And he... It took him a long time to kind of open up about this, even to his therapist. And his therapist said something along the lines of, "Yeah, that's what being a man is. You're permanently comparing yourself to, where am I in the status hierarchy? How's he doing? Is he ascending? Ooh, do I need to, do I need to watch out for him? He might be, he could be a threat. Is he a, is he an ally? But even if he is an ally, he's still kind of a threat because, like, you know, ascension is good but it's also kinda not good." So that, and then dude, this, uh, emotional inheritance that we've got from a post-war, you know, what, three post-war generations?
- CBConnor Beaton
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
Like 1910-
- CBConnor Beaton
It's not far off.
- CWChris Williamson
... 1940, 1960, three post-war generations. And then, you know, I, I don't know what the kids of the, uh, Desert Storm guys will be like but, you know, fucking hell, like, they've seen even more shit in some regards, right? War's become more lethal. Um, more support but e- and maybe in some ways more trauma too. So, yeah, this, this emotional inheritance, I mean it's malignant emotional inheritance in some regards. And you do wonder... That's n- that's the first time that anyone's ever said it. It's the first time that anyone's ever brought up the fact that we did pretty much, you know, a huge chunk of men, for the best part of a century, got sent off to war.
- CBConnor Beaton
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
Right? And what does that teach them about how to deal with their emotions? And then they come back and they pass that down to their kids, and they pass that down to their kids, and they pass that down. I, I, I've been thinking for a little while, you know, that there's a real inflection point I'm seeing with the advent of introspective mindful content on YouTube and, and podcasts and books and stuff. Um, there seems to be a real step change between our generation's parents and our generation, right?
- CBConnor Beaton
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
My dad didn't have the tools to be able to understand whether he was enacting his logos forward, you know? Like, his dad smoked and his dad was an engineer and my dad became an engineer and blah, blah, blah. Like, you know, the coping strategies were just like inherited down and there was no orthogonal elders-
- CBConnor Beaton
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
... we could call them, right?
- CBConnor Beaton
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
There was no one outside of the existing frame that says, "This is something, this is a pattern interruption that you're not familiar with, and this might be precisely the thing that you need to hear." And I wonder whether, I've been thinking about it for a while, if this is a, an inflection point. If we're going to see gen A kids be more emotionally in tune, be able to deal with their emotions more. Now they have other things to deal with, like fucking TikTok and social media and comparison and, and too much time inside and not enough time touching grass and not enough exercise and everyone's fat and full of seed oils and all the rest of it. Like, I get that, but like from an emotional education perspective, the tools that at least me and my friends have are...... a million miles away from what our parents did. But this, uh, aftershock, this sort of recurrent tremor that's been inherited through the generations, um, it's almost, it's almost narcissistic to believe-
- CBConnor Beaton
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
... that so much war for so long to so many men would not have... "Oh, it's over now. Grow up." And you go, "What do you mean, grow up? Like, uh, fucking half of my friends died in a five-year period."
- CBConnor Beaton
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Or, or, "I did this... I, I saw war and destruction," or, "I was a fucking medic, and I tried to fix people that I couldn't help." So yeah, I think, I think the competition point is massive. And if, if guys were to assess themselves, that degree of comparison that they have, which is different to women. Women, fucking hell, like if you wanna (laughs) like go down the-
- CBConnor Beaton
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
... comparison route, like girls, you've got it way worse. Um, but guys have it worse in a much more, I think, like a visceral way.
- CBConnor Beaton
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
It's just, like, like, "Where am I, and what's that?" And we can be more positive some than women can. Like, women's relationships are brutal. I'm so, so glad that I'm not one. Um, but yeah. Uh, competition and war, I think, are, are, are, are fascinating insights.
- CBConnor Beaton
Well, the... I think that the competition piece is insidious in the sense that it's largely unconscious for men. Like women, uh, women, w- when you talk to women and you hear how they interact with other women or see them, they're largely, they're very aware of, oh yeah, when I walk into a bar, a restaurant, or a party, they are scoping out the other women to see, you know, uh, what are they wearing, how do they look, what's the man that they're with, you know. Like there's, there's this sort of sizing up that happens, whereas men, it's, it's very much in the background. You know, it's in the background of the conversation. It's in the background of the walking in and sizing yourself up. Uh, maybe sometimes it's more direct, like, "Could I take that guy?" You know.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- CBConnor Beaton
Like, or, uh, you know, how does his physique compare to mine, or what's the watch that he's wearing, or, you know, those, those types of sort of like materialistic things. But, uh, I think that we, we forget that, and, you know, if you look at an evolutionary standpoint, that that, that's baked into us. You know, that sort of sizing one another up. Where do I fit within the hierarchy?
- CWChris Williamson
Well, the other thing is that status is a game that you lose the second that you talk about it.
- CBConnor Beaton
Mm-hmm.
- 23:14 – 33:39
The Double Standard of Aggression & Vulnerability
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah. Uh, thinking about the, the, the impact of some emotionally damaged men in a, a barrel of other emotionally okay men. And I remember reading this study about how if... Uh, uh, they wanted to work out whether poor performers bring down a team or whether great performers raise up poor performers. And they tried putting different combinations of high performers and low performers in a team together, and they presumed, you know, "We've got a team of six. Five of them are amazing, and one of them is lazy, and we're gonna test and see what goes on. Surely, the five people are going to bring up the one." And they didn't.
- CBConnor Beaton
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
The, the way that it seems like sort of human team working a- and human emotions work is that it kind of m- meets at the lowest common denominator. And I wonder whether, you know, in a group of guys, if one of the dudes... Y- y- not everyone's father was, has military history. Mine, mine do, but like not everyone's do. Um, but, you know, how many military...... emotional inheritance men do you need in order to be able to, like, spoil the, the barrel, so to speak.
- CBConnor Beaton
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
One of my favorite quotes that I've learned from you as well is, "Men face a conundrum, have your shit together and also be able to talk about it when you're struggling." I love, I love that conception. I think it's really right.
- CBConnor Beaton
(inhales deeply) Yeah, there's this double standard, um, that shows up with men's vulnerability and men's aggression in the sense that you should be able to be vulnerable or be aggressive, but you should also be able to temper it at, at your whim, right? Like, you should have complete control over your vulnerability. You should have, you know, you should be able to talk about it when necessary, because that's the big push that we sort of hear socially, right? Like, men just need to be more vulnerable. If men were just more vulnerable, you know, society's problems would change, men's problems would change. And, uh, you know, I've, I've kind of railed against this. I love what George brought up, um, from The Tin Man on your, your conversation about that study in the UK with, with men who were suicidal, uh, or men who have taken, taken their own lives, that 92% of them, 92% of men in the UK that had taken their lives were in therapy, right? They were talking about their issues. And then 80% of those men that were in therapy that had taken their life were, uh, labeled as no risk or low risk, right? And so we, we, we're so culturally and socially a- almost inept at being able to identify a man who's really struggling. Like, we are, we're inept, you know? It's pretty bad. And I see a lot of men who come in, who come to our weekends, who come and work with me, you know, some of these guys are incredibly high performers, you know, mainstream rappers, Navy SEALs, entrepreneurs, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, and then just everyday guys that are just, you know, trying to make a living and, you know, feed their kids. And across the board, it's shocking how many of them on the outside look like they have their stuff together, but internally are really struggling. And one of the main pieces that they talk about is that they know that there's a risk for being vulnerable, right? They know that there's a risk.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah, you've got your, uh, you've got your idea, the myth of male vulnerability.
- CBConnor Beaton
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, and the, the myth of male vulnerbility- vulnerability is pretty simple, right? It's just the, the myth is that all of men's problems will just disappear if men are just more vulnerable. That's the societal narrative right now, that men are being told ad hoc, right, "If you just open up and talk about it, then you'll feel better, women will feel better, relationships will be better, and men will be better." And it's a very female-oriented approach to male problems, and it misses, much like I think a lot of the therapeutic industry i- is mi- is missing, it misses the actual challenges that men are experiencing. And so the myth of male vulnerability says, "You'll be okay if you open up." And it m- and it m- also misses out on the consequences of opening up, right? That you might open up to the wrong people and they'll be like, "Oh, dude, you're such a, you know, pussy," and, like, "What the hell is wrong with you? Just shut up." And, you know, so you might open up to the wrong people and it might not go well. You might also miss out on the consequences of if you open up to your girlfriend or your wife, uh, and that might not go well, right? She might not know how to handle it or receive it. One of the things that we don't talk about culturally is that a lot of women do not know how to be with or receive or see a man's vulnerabilities. It's, for a lot of women, it's very frightening. It's foreign, right? Imagine being a woman who grew up around a grandfather and a father who never cried, who never opened up, who never talked about their feelings, and then all of a sudden, here's your husband or here's your boyfriend of the year opening up, spilling his guts out emotionally, crying in front of you, and you're just like, "Oh, sh- shit, like, what do I do with this?" (laughs) You know? And so I've heard, I've heard, you know, some pretty bad stories where men have opened up to their girlfriends, and all of a sudden, two months later, their relationship is over, right? Or the sexual attraction is gone, or the conversations suddenly get stilted, and they're like, "Wait, y- what's happened? You know, I thought this is exactly what you've wanted. I thought you wanted me to open up." But the reality is, and this is, uh, (sighs) this is a funny one, I, I posted this, um, the other day. I said, "Women don't necessarily want you to be vulnerable emotionally. Women want to know that you know what's happening inside of you, that you can communicate what's happening inside of you, and that you have the resources around you to support you." So, that's the real crux of it. That's, th- when women say, "I want you to be more vulnerable," that's generally what they're saying. They're like, "I want you to know what's going on inside of you and be able to communicate it and maybe have some resources, but I don't want to be responsible for supporting you with it." That's generally what I'll, what I've seen a lot of people saying. So yeah, there's consequences. There's, there's parts of it where guys, you know, I think, are sort of battling against some of the things that we've been talking about, right? The notion that if you do open up, you're weak, if you do share, you're weak, you know, you're gonna be ostracized, you're gonna be isolated even more than you already are. Um, and then there's, then there's the resource problem, you know, where a lot of men enter into therapeutic conversations or environments and are not actually given the tools to solution their problems, right? They're treated, um, in a very sort of feminine-oriented way where it's like, "Well, let's just talk about what you're g- you know, what you're going through."
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah, the Christine Ember article from The Washington Post, which was just so great, and I brought her on and, and, and she was fantastic.She has this wonderful line where she says, "To the extent that any acceptable version of masculinity is ever put forward, it sounds an awful lot like stereotypical femininity to me."
- CBConnor Beaton
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
And, you know, the, the, the sanitization narrative around men is that they are defective women.
- CBConnor Beaton
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
If you just stopped being so masculine, if you just stopped being so non-feminine, all of your problems would go away. And we know that this isn't the case, right? Like, why... (laughs) Th- there's a, a trend on TikTok that I'm sure you've seen at the moment of liberal women saying, "Why are the only men that I can find who want to open a door for me and pay for the first date conservatives?"
- CBConnor Beaton
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
And, you know, like, this, (laughs) this massive swath of liberal women who want to have, you know, a, a partnership that is somewhat more traditional, struggling to find that from liberal men. And I'm sure you've seen as well, the stats around school kids now, that girls are diverging massively toward being liberal, and guys are diverging massively toward being conservative. So yeah, there's gonna be some awkward Thanksgiving dinners in a, a couple of decades' time perhaps-
- CBConnor Beaton
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
... when all of these people sit down. Like, 1/3 of Democrat... Uh, 1/3 of Republicans and half of Democrats fear that their child will marry a person from the opposite political party.
- CBConnor Beaton
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Uh, that's another Scott Galloway one. But yeah, I think, uh, this myth of male vulnerability thing is super interesting to me. And I like challenging, especially manosphere and red pill notions, uh, that are wrong. And as with many things, there are some kernels of truth in it. Uh, streaks of piss in a pile of shit, as my dad would say. Uh... (laughs)
- CBConnor Beaton
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
Um-
- CBConnor Beaton
That was good. I like that.
- CWChris Williamson
And I agree, opening up to the wrong woman at the wrong time about the wrong thing, bad idea. C- uh, could it kill... Could it be the one inflection point that mutates, uh, attraction for the rest of time? Could this be the, the end of your relationship because of a single moment of, of opening up and vulnerability? Perhaps. Frankly, if that's the way that your female partner behaves, uh, pres- presuming that this isn't the third date, um, like, if that's the way that your female partner behaves, as soon as you show any emotion that isn't just like stoicism and directions, I think that it's genuinely a good thing that you found out now, because that person isn't ready to have a real relationship. So first off, if that does happen, see it as a, see it as a good thing. But to sort of do a callback to what we spoke about at the very beginning, was it 64% of men aged 18 to 24 would feel uncomfortable crying in front of someone of their own sex, right?
- CBConnor Beaton
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
So, uh, w- the common internet advice is don't open up to your girl, that's what your boys are for. Hang on a second, two fucking thirds of men aren't prepared to even do that. Okay?
- CBConnor Beaton
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
So tell me at what point people... And this is the best use of the word man up. Like tell me at which point these guys are actually going to man up and integrate and transcend and include all of these emotions that they're facing, right? Like, w- wha- when are you actually going to let the m- rubber meet the road with this?
- 33:39 – 45:12
The Huge Rise of Internet Men’s Advice
- CBConnor Beaton
Yeah, man. I think that's why, you know, when I look out at the internet today and y- you see this huge swell within men's work, within the manosphere, within red pill, you know, certain figures that are online that have just had a meteoric rise. I- in, in many ways, it's because they're speaking to the, the sort of cultural underpinnings of what men are experiencing. You know, we're living through one of the first times, in my opinion, in almost all of history, all known history, where masculinity isn't getting defined by men, right? Culturally, if you look at what makes a good man and what makes a, a man masculine, there's sort of this battle for being able to define it. And I think it was Yuval Harari, um, in Sapiens where... Or no, maybe it was Homo Deus, where he talks about how in the future the wars will be fought within intersubjective reality, within the reality of story, within the reality of narrative. And I think that that's where a lot of the, quote-unquote, "gender wars" is, are happening right now. It's within the realm of story and within the realm of narrative. And so, anyway, that's a little existential, but to pull it back down to reality, I think you're right. There's, there's this, there's this very big challenge that a lot of men feel, which is they're being told, specifically by a lot of women, to open up by society, by Instagram, by Facebook. It's like, "Open up. Be more vulnerable." And then there's a bit of a mixed bag when they do it, uh, or they don't feel like they have the proper resources to go and do it, right? They're not sure what's gonna happen if they, if they open up and say, "Hey man," like, "listen, I'm really struggling." Like, "I'm struggling to get out of bed. I freaking hate my job. I..." Like, "I'm barely getting by. Don't know how to support myself. I'm really struggling. What..." You know, "What should I do?" Or, you know, "What have you done?" And so, uh, I think that that's the, the inflection point that a lot of men find themselves at, and the challenge is that when we talk about some of the issues that men are going through, because statistically speaking, in a lot of ways, men are in decline, right? In decline in the workforce, they're not going to college as much. I mean, it's all stuff that you've talked about on your show before. There-
- CWChris Williamson
Lifespan, healthspan.
- CBConnor Beaton
Lifespan, healthspan. They're living at home longer. They don't have as much money. They're not buying properties as much. Um, they're not graduating from college. I mean, it's just like across the board. Testosterone's down. It's like, you know, there's some big things that we as a culture and as a society should be talking about. But what I've noticed is that when we want to talk about men's problems... If we wanna talk about men improving themselves-... everybody's for that. Thumbs up, green lit across the board. If we wanna talk about the issues that men are having, uh, that's a very different challenge, and what men are usually met with is the solution of, "Be more vulnerable." It's like, "Oh, you hate your life because your wife just divorced you and left you and took the kids and half of your net worth? Just be more vulnerable. Just open up and talk about it, and that'll solve it." And it's like, well, but what about the judicial system? You know, what about talking about some of the things that are actually, um, you know, in- sort of infringing and impinging on men's lives? So I think some of these things are... You know, I think that they're coming to a head in a lot of ways.
- CWChris Williamson
I had a, uh, post that I put up on Twitter that I got a lot of shit for, so I'm gonna say it again. "Publicly trying to work out why men are struggling is largely a thankless task. This is the zero-sum view of empathy. There is an assumption that any attention paid toward men takes it away from women or some of the minority group who is more deserving. After all, haven't men had it good enough for long enough? Maybe they should just suck it up for a while. But empathy does not work this way. It's not a limited resource. Recognizing the plights of men does not ignore the plights of women, and ultimately women end up suffering in any case as it's this increasing cohort of apathetic, checked-out, and resentful men who contribute to the exact lack of eligible partners that women say they're struggling with. Women who post 'Boo-hoo, poor patriarchy sad,' whilst also complaining about 'Where are all the good men at?' are committing mating logic seppuku. If one sex loses, both sexes lose." "Male blame is something else that I see a lot," and this is what triggered what you just said. "A common question is, why don't men just do better? Surely they can work harder in school, employment, and health. Chop chop, men. Hurry up and stop being so useless. Well, no other group is told that when they suffer with poor performance or accolades in the real world, that they should just pull themselves up by their bootstraps. We don't tell any other group to talk about their problems. Instead, we spend billions in taxpayer money and private charity to set up committees, departments, campaigns, and funds to solve the problem. In simple terms, if a woman has a problem, we ask, 'What can we do to fix society?' If a man has a problem, we ask, 'What can men do to fix themselves?'"
- CBConnor Beaton
You nailed it. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, that... Th- I think that summarizes it in a nutshell, right? The, the myth of male vulnerability is that it's wanted, and the reality is that society and people generally don't know what to do with it when it arises, because when it comes forward, there are very real things that we have to look at socially in terms of altering. I mean, Richard Reeves, who I think we've both interviewed and talked to, talks about redshirting boys.
- CWChris Williamson
Yep.
- CBConnor Beaton
You know, and it's like, that created so much controversy, just that one thing. You know, a lot of people were against it and, you know, we shouldn't be treating boys and girls differently, and, you know, some people are on board with it, which is great. But, uh, I think that in large part, that's the attitude that society and culture sort of pushes back on men, is, "Well, you guys just need to go and figure it out." And I think that a lot of young men hear that in today's world and are just checking out. Like, I see it in my YouTube comments-
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah, me too.
- CBConnor Beaton
... and I've seen it in... You probably do too, where it's just like... You know, I did a video on... I did two videos, one on, you know, sh- should you bother getting married, or is marriage, is marriage dying? And then, you know, should you bother having kids? And it's very interesting to hear and see people's responses and to get the DMs back from it, and, and, you know, I think in large part, there's a huge cohort of men who are just, like, checking out-
- CWChris Williamson
Right.
- CBConnor Beaton
... from marriage, from having kids, from society in a very real way. And that should be cause for concern. That shouldn't be... Like, we should not be approaching that problem. If women were just checking out from culture and society, like, in large numbers, I do not think that we would be approaching that problem with the sense of, "Well, you either just need to get your shit together, or you just need to sit down and talk about it." We would be looking at what systemically are causing some of these issues, and how can we actually go about creating a, a robust plan and structure to actually do something about those challenges that they're facing? So I think we need to bring that into... And I think that's an important part of any man's work, you know, to really be, um, in the conversation of, "Where, where do I feel stuck?" You know, "Who can I talk to? Who can I open up to? Are there challenges that I feel bogged down by in my life that aren't just psychological or emotional, you know, that are maybe financial, um, that are maybe structural within my life that, that I'm frustrated by?" And to be able to have some conversation and to work on those things, I think is in- incredibly important.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah, I, um, I got in trouble from a different group for saying, uh, "Limits on speech are limits on sincerity," that if... I- it doesn't make you any less vulnerable to not talk about your vulnerability. Like, if you're, if you're so much of a pussy that you're struggling with the things you're struggling with, and then you layer on top the amount of pussiness that you need to not be able to talk about it, how does that make you any stronger? And a lot of people brought up the, "You bring it up to your girl, and you... Th- this thing's gonna go wrong, and then she's gonna leave you with the postman," or whatever, and the... It's coming back to that stat at the start about men not even being able to open up to other men. And, like, I'm speaking to myself, right? Like, I'm speaking... This isn't me s- from my fucking high horse of, like, masculine virtue saying that I've got it all s- figured out. Um, but I do think that reassessing what we mean by vulnerability and the frame that is placed around these sorts of conversations... And again, for the women that are listening, like, these are the guys that you're getting, gonna get into a relationship with. These are the guys that are going to have to be up five times a night when the baby's got a stomach bug at six months old or whatever, right? Like, this is... The degree of resilience that you require from your partner is not just...... in terms of their resources. I- i- i- it's emotionally as well. And the- I- I fucking hate, hate it when people go, "Th- this is gynocentrism at work." I'm like, "Dude, like, fucking hell. You really think that, like, women could coordinate or anybody could coordinate, like, some mass move toward one thing?" It's the popular view at the moment because it makes you seem empathetic. If you support-
- CBConnor Beaton
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
... women, it makes you seem like you're standing up for the little person, right? It's the same tyranny of the minority rule that we see in everything. It's why trans athletes in sport are such a big deal. It's why kids getting hormones is such a big deal. It's why ensuring that, you know, we can move gay rights into the Middle East is such a big deal, blah, blah, bl- Like, fine. T- totally fine. Like, the, you know, the- well, not fine, but you know what I mean. Like, fine for you to talk about it, you can fucking open it up as a big deal. But it's not the same case when you're talking about male problems through a female frame.
- CBConnor Beaton
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
Like, the presumption it's, uh, from the term from evolutionary psychology is a failure of cross-sex mind reading and I don't know why it's the case. I understand why publicly this tyranny of the minority or, like, the upheld, the upholding of the, of the underclass thing, like, I- I understand why that has, um, why that makes sense. Like, it-
- CBConnor Beaton
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
... it's, it's got some status associated with it. What I don't understand is how it actually gets pushed into capturing the frame of a conversation around, like, what men should do. Why is it that, you know, the- y- you sent me this insight from the American Psychological Association, um, uh, traditional masculinity is defined as harmful and damaging to boys' and men's mental health. Uh, modern therapy basically treats men like defective women. Um, yeah, I- I- I- that's the bit where I actually think, "Well, fucking hell. Like, that is gynocentrism at work." Even if it's not coordinated by some cabal of fucking hooded women-
- CBConnor Beaton
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
... like big titty hooded women, like, all drinking-
- CBConnor Beaton
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
... men- male adrenochrome or something and, and eating fried foreskins. Like, that's not necessarily what's happening, but in terms of a cash value of what's occurring, I do think that that's what we're ending up with.
- CBConnor Beaton
I'm just waiting for the animated videos of your commentary and then the animation on the fro- like, big-titted, hoodied women frying up foreskin. It's- have you ever-
- CWChris Williamson
Oh, yeah.
- CBConnor Beaton
... seen, uh, Midnight Gospel? Uh, yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Spin a yarn. I'll spin a yarn all day.
- CBConnor Beaton
Yeah, spin a yarn. Well, I, you know, I think part of, part
- 45:12 – 58:19
Vacancy of Father Figures & Friends for Boys
- CBConnor Beaton
of this is that you mentioned mentors before and, and part of this is that there is a vacancy in a lot of young men's lives. You know, if you're a, like, one in four kids are gonna grow up without a father in the household, right? Everybody hears that stat. But when you, when you kind of follow it through, imagine you're a young boy, you're growing up in a single mother household, your dad's not in the picture, you go into the education system, it's predominantly female teachers, right? It's dominated by female teachers. You exit the education system, maybe you go into college or not go into college, and then you're struggling and you're told, "Go get help," right? "Go talk to a therapist." And you start to look into therapy and it's 75% of therapists are women. And so you can literally go through childhood, education, mental health support, and not be influenced by any men, you know, or so few men. Or you c- you know, the men that you're in contact with haven't done much with their life or they're not, you know, they're not role models to begin with. And so I- I think that one of the challenges that a lot of young men specifically are facing, and a lot of men in, in our generations as well, is that there's a serious lack of role models. And there's something about being a man and masculinity that is modeled, you know? If you, like, I- I wrote about this in, in the book that, like, part of how we as men learn how to deal with our power, our aggression, our anger, is through the modeling of other men, specifically older men. So if you're not surrounded by any men that are older than you, um, you're probably going to struggle to learn how to deal with those things, because mentorship and initiation specifically has been an incredibly integral part of young boys' lives throughout history cross-culturally, right? It's just such an, it's such an important piece. But we've stripped mind initiation out of our culture. We've sort of stripped mined boys' spaces specifically where a lot of young boys would have those male role models. Those are collapsing rapidly. And so a lot of young boys just do not have the, the opportunity even to be around older men that are going to show them, "Hey, when I'm struggling, here's how I deal with it. When I'm flawed, here's how I deal with it. Here's how I treat women. Here's how I deal with my anger. Here's how I deal with my sadness or my grief or my aggression. Here's how I deal with, you know, a, a job that maybe I don't like." Like, there's- there's certain masculine qualities and traits that I think that we as young boys are, are trying to emulate. But if there's no one there to emulate, then what are you doing, right? You're learning from Homer Simpson and f- you know, fricking Peter Griffin. And, uh, I mean, it's, it's like, it's terrible. So I think that there's a, I think that there's a vacancy of mentorship and it's why, I mean, I've been very fortunate to have phenomenal mentors. I've d- been very lucky to stumble across some incredible people in my life that-
- CWChris Williamson
Now, where did you f- where did you find them?
- CBConnor Beaton
Uh, honestly, just- just happenstance. You know, my first mentor, um, I was a classical singer, oddly enough, in my first career. That's, uh, I went from stunting and street racing motorcycles and doing construction to (laughs) traveling the world singing (laughs) .
- CWChris Williamson
Natural trajectory.
- CBConnor Beaton
Um, natural. Yes, natural. Uh, and s- and he was a part of that, um, cohort, but he had, in his past life, uh, studied psychology. And so, I spent two years apprenticing with him, learning Jungian psychology, and cognitive behavioral therapy, and Gestalt. And in return, I would chop wood and help him with his asparagus farm 'cause he was, you know, in his 70s. And, you know, so I've s- I've just sort of stumbled across them, um, but they've played an integral role in filling in the gaps that the men in our lives, you know, fathers, whether they're there or not, you know, aren't really meant to do all of it. Like, the- the burden of responsibility of you becoming a, an integral, uh, uh, uh, a man that's integrated into society and culture in a very effective way was never the sole responsibility of the father, right? Even if you study initiation processes around the world, right, in Africa, and you know, in- in Eastern Europe, and in- in Asia and whatnot, and even here in- in America, traditionally, those initiations, the men of the tribe would come and take you as a boy and take you out, and process your initiation, start your initiation. Sometimes, the father wasn't even a part of it. But in our culture today, a lot of fathers just don't even have that community of men around them where the young boy is getting supported, uh, nurtured, you know, challenged by the other men that are surrounding the father. So, I think that there's, I think part of it is that we need to reestablish masculine friendships, you know, masculine groups, um, where men can actually come together and not return to some ideal thing, 'cause I don't think that's it, but to at least reestablish what it's like to be a man amongst other men, having real conversations, being transparent, challenging one another, supporting one another through hardship. That- that's the foundation, um, that- that I think needs to be present.
- CWChris Williamson
As we said before, you can be in a group of people, and if there's some that are mocking or scathing or make it feel unsafe to be able to open up in the way that you want to, it can actually end up maybe even doing more harm than good-
- CBConnor Beaton
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... to be able to do, to- to- to be in a group of men that make you feel silly or deficient or- or- or weak for the things that you're feeling. You know, I- I certainly know growing up in the UK that I had older men around me. Uh, you know, I played cricket for a long time at an adult level from the age of 13 probably. So from, you know, 13 to 15, half a decade, I was two or three days a week in the pavilion or in the clubhouse or out on the field of play with 10 other guys, and at- at least like seven or eight of them would have been, you know, 25 plus probably, something like that. So, I was around a lot of these guys, and I'd- I found, um, good lessons here and there, and there were some people that were really fantastic role models to me. But there were also ones that if I wasn't more socially introverted, would've been atrocious influences on me.
- CBConnor Beaton
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
I came up with this idea called the negative role model or the reverse role model, which is as opposed to seeing people like the person you want to be like, you see people like the person you don't want to be like, all right? I don't want his relationship with gambling, and I don't want the way that he treats his wife, and I don't want the way that he shows up for his friends or not. And that is actually super valuable. Uh, i- it's unbelievably valuable to, like, I've never gambled, never ever ever gambled once, but saw a bunch of guys in my youth that had problems with gambling.
- CBConnor Beaton
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
And maybe I'm just not built to be a gambler. Probably, like I don't find it that fun. But also, I always, I just had this super fucking visceral experience, right? This like real front and center, like guys, like infidelity really early on, like weird stuff with like she wants more kids, and I don't wanna have kids, and she's trying to get me to come inside of her, and I'm fucking trying to pull out and stuff. I was like, well, I am 15 years old hearing like, you know-
- CBConnor Beaton
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
... the inner- inner turmoil. But it was said in, it was said in such a, this wasn't men's work opening up. This was like blasé and- and- and sort of casting it off as, you know, like, and what's in the newspapers this morning type- type of a story. And, um-
- CBConnor Beaton
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah, I understand that it's a heavy lift to be able to see that for what it is, which is a reverse role model rather than an actual role model. And, you know, a- a slightly different genetic quirk, a slightly different upbringing for me and, you know, that could have been the role model rather than the inverse.
- CBConnor Beaton
Hmm. Yeah, I mean, I- (sighs) I can't help but hear your story and hear those guys and- and think about, you know, the- the men that I grew up with, and the amount of men who casually throw their problems out into the locker room or into the friend group at the bar and talk about it in such a nonchalant way, uh, you know, as if it's not that big of a deal, and to be met with crickets, you know? Like, I think (laughs) , like did any of those guys get any solutions? Did any of those guys get any support or did they-
- CWChris Williamson
I think they're using it, they- they- they're using the humor and the, um, casual nature of the way that they're putting it across largely to not actually have to accept the fact that it could be a big problem.
- CBConnor Beaton
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Uh, you know, fundamentally, the guy that's in the marriage with the partner who wants to have another kid and he doesn't want to have another kid is because he wants to leave.
- CBConnor Beaton
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... it's because he doesn't want to be in that relationship. So by making the joke all about like, "Oh, and she's s- like holding onto my hips and I'm like, 'No,'" eh, by doing that, it makes the situation about something else, and it allows you to deal with the surface level joke that everybody can laugh at-
- CBConnor Beaton
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... whilst not actually dealing with this iceberg that's kind of lurking underneath.
- CBConnor Beaton
But I think I, I, you know, I, I, (sighs) the story that you're telling, I really just wanna drive home that I think for the majority of men, that is the state of their male friendships. That's it. Like, you just nailed it. It's a very, it's like a, a mile wide and an inch deep, and I think what many men are craving i- are more depth-oriented relationships where, where, 'cause it's confronting. It's hard.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- CBConnor Beaton
You know, it's very hard to be in relationship with other men and have real substantial relationships about your life, about the challenges that you're facing, about what you want, your dreams, you know, what you wanna build and create. It, the, there, they're hard to build those types of relationships, and we see that, right? I think th- again, there's lots of research that's come out on men being more isolated than ever before, men having less friends than ever before, and so, you know, prioritizing those types of things, prioritizing those types of relationships, I think for a lot of men is one of the most substantial things that they can do. Because in many ways, a lot of the issues that we've been talking about is this sort of breakdown and fraying of masculine relationships, and keeping it in this very safe sort of surface zone where we don't go deep into the muck.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- CBConnor Beaton
And the reason why when you talk to n- people like Navy SEALs or Marines that go into battle together, the reason why they are so close to the, to the men and the women that they serve with is that they go through hell, but they go through it together, shoulder to shoulder. And in, in my current mentor's framework, he's been doing gestalt therapy and developmental psychology for 40 plus years. He's trained like 5,000 therapists and has 90,000 clinical hours. He has a framework around attachment. It's super simple but very powerful, and he says the foundation of attachment is to go through a hard time and come out the other side okay. S- that's the foundation. When you're a baby, when you're a child, when you're an adult, it's just can I, in relationship with you, go through a hard time and come out the other side okay? And that's what actually builds the blocks of relationship, but we as men are often feeling like we're on these little islands. I'm going through a hard time. Maybe you're going through a hard time, but neither of us fucking know. And so (laughs) how does it build the foundation underneath of I really feel and know unquestioningly that I have a solid relationship with you as a man? And if we can't get that, if we can't piece that together, then it's going to be exponentially harder to do that with women, to do that with our children, to do that with the people at work, because there's something I believe, and this is just in my framework, that there's a kind of sustenance that comes out of our masculine relationships. And when we can go through those hard times with other men and come out the other c- side okay and, you know, know that we're good, we've had the conversations, we went through the hard time, you know, we got feedback, we got support, then on the other side of that, we have a more robust sense of I belong. I belong with these men. I have friends. I h- have people that have my back, and then I can face the challenges in my marriage, at work, in my business, you know, with my kid when he's got that stomach virus at 3:00 in the morning, and I just wanna, like, lose my mind.
- 58:19 – 1:06:54
How Does Fatherlessness Actually Impact Young Men?
- CBConnor Beaton
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
What have you found... Eh, we've spoken about fatherlessness a good bit over the last few weeks on the show, actually, and then plus today. What, what have you been sort of learning about the impact of fatherlessness, and, and how do boys model men when dad isn't around? What happens?
- CBConnor Beaton
(sighs) I think, eh, I used the word vacancy before, and I used that specifically because, you know, over the last decade, I've sat with tens of thousands of men. Like, it's just, it's a lot of men, virtually and in person, and they're, for a lot of guys, a vacancy forms within them, like an actual sort of emotional or psychological void where when dad isn't around, it creates this big question mark. Like, the unknown becomes somewhat terrifying, you know? They don't know how to take risks properly, or they, they try and compensate, um, for that by taking really stupid risks, you know, risks that will get them killed. Um, th- they're not really too sure if it's okay to say no and to have really assertive, direct boundaries, and so what ends up happening is that for a lot of guys that have no father around, they become your classic nice guy, right? They, they start to orient themselves, their whole orientation of how do I be a man in the world, there's no model for me to orient myself towards or away from, 'cause a lot of men will create a life in opposition of their father. "I don't wanna be like that guy. I don't wanna be that drunk. I don't wanna be that fucking asshole that yells at, you know, mom and, you know, beats his kids and drinks too much." They either orient in opposition of their father ehr- or in repetition of their father, right? So they either say, "Okay, I don't wanna be like him," or, "He's incredible and I wanna orient myself towards how do I be like him," you know? How do I build my body in the way that he built it, et cetera. So when that's not present, young boys, eh, it's not that they don't want to orient themselves towards...... being a man, they just don't have any symbol for it, and so they start to orient themselves towards, "Well, how do I get affirmation from women that I'm a good man, that I'm a good boy?" And so the over-validation from women starts to become very prominent within young boys' lives. And again, like I said, it'll show up at home, it'll show up at school, it'll show up if he's, you know, seeing a therapist or whatnot. And it'll create a framework psychologically within young men where they will try and live in repetition of what women say is good for them, uh, you know, to, to reinforce if they're being a good man, you know, if they're dealing with their anger properly or proportionately, if they are treating the women, you know, how they should, or they will live in opposition to what women say. So they'll actually start to, instead of push against dad, instead of push against other men, they'll start to push against women. And you see this big movement online that has, I think in some ways, been birthed out of that, that there's this void and this vacancy of mature men that all- that younger men are growing up around, and so they have nothing to push against. You know, I have a two-and-a-half-year-old son. He wants to push against me. He wants to jump off, you know, like Hulk Hogan off the top ropes on my couch, onto me. He wants to push against me, he wants to test boundaries. You know, he drives his truck into the wall. He wants to challenge me, and he wants to see where are the edges, where are the limitations, where's the structure, and what are you gonna do if I don't listen? And that's, that's every young boy. And so when we don't have that structure, and I'm talking about psychologically here and emotionally, what we start to do is, is we start to look at women as an object that we should push against to see and verify whether or not we are operating as a man, as a good man, as a healthy man, uh, as a man who is accepted. So that, that's what I've seen.
- CWChris Williamson
W- why do you think this people-pleasing element comes in, this sort of fear of being assertive?
- CBConnor Beaton
(sighs)
- CWChris Williamson
If the boundaries haven't been placed there by dad because dad's been absent, whether it's this, not necessarily just a single-parent household. I would imagine workaholic father is probably giving you a single, uh, a similar kind of outcome. Um, if boundaries haven't been placed, have you got any idea about why it is that men refuse to assert them themselves? That's almost, it seems, uh, uh, very circular.
- CBConnor Beaton
It... So generally speaking, young boys are going to look for different things from fathers than from mothers, right? So, and Peterson's talked about this quite a bit. There's, there's a good amount of research that shows that young kids, boys or girls, need rough-and-tumble play from fathers. They need that risk-taking, those types of pieces. So fathers, generally speaking, play the role of structure and orientation towards order, which also means an orientation towards limitations. Whereas with mothers, generally, it's not about structure, order, and limitations. It's about nurturing, care, and acceptance, and so it's about are you good? Are you listening to what mom wants? Are you acting in a way where she's giving you approval? So it's about verification. It's about appreciation. It's about nurturing.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- CBConnor Beaton
So the orientation is just very, very different. So when a young boy is missing those, th- th- those behaviors and the, the opportunities to push against the boundaries and the limitations to actually say, "No, I don't wanna do this," or, "No, I'm not interested in that," what he, what he'll do around a mom oftentimes is just acquiesce. It's like, "Oh, okay, I'll go along with that. Oh, uh, w- that'll keep me safe. That'll keep me here, you know. That'll, that'll keep you around. That'll keep you happy with me." Uh, and so they, they... It's not that they don't push back as much. (laughs) There's definitely a lot of young boys who grew up in single mother households who give their moms hell. Um, but generally speaking, they'll have an orientation towards needing to get everything from that primary caregiver. And so they'll, they'll try and get that structure, that order from mom, and if they can't get it, they'll try and, and provide that order and structure for themselves by just acquiescing to everything, by just saying, "Okay, I'll just go along with it. I won't tell you no 'cause if I tell you no, you're also my only lifeline. You're my only caregiver right now. And so I, I kind of have to acquiesce. Otherwise, that might feel dangerous or unsafe," especially for young kids, you know, like three to five.
- CWChris Williamson
And then presumably, this probably shows up echoed in relationships later in life.
- CBConnor Beaton
100%. Yeah, 100%. And it... And a lot of what happens... What happens for (sighs) a lot of parents is, especially if you're a boy that grows up with a mom as your primary caretaker, she might do a phenomenal job. This, you know, this isn't to knock on, you know, single moms. There's a ton of single moms out there that do phenomenal. Um, but what will happen often is that that mother will try and discipline or create discipline for her son by reinforcing and over-reinforcing where he's good, right, where he's being a good boy, where he's acquiescing to what she's asked him for. And she'll do that by nurturing him constantly, and so he will learn very quickly that how he gets feminine attention, how he gets female validation and affection is by acquiescing to, to her needs and her wants. And so he'll orient himself in a very sort of hyperfixated way towards what do, what do women need, what do women want, and my needs and my wants are on the back burner. And maybe once I've, you know, ensured that her needs and wants are met, then I can bring mine in.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah. Adam Lane-Smith talks about, uh, the good boy paradox. Like, "I just- I just want to be told that I'm a good boy. I- I want to make sure..." Like, you basically find surrogate mothers in each partner subsequently as- as you grow up.
- 1:06:54 – 1:15:15
Vulnerability Around Men Discussing Sex
- CWChris Williamson
One other thing, a conversation I haven't really had much recently, but I was talking about a couple of years ago, was the pressures around men and sex. This is a real double standard, I think, in the way that we see men and women. Um, you know, female body dysmorphia, uh, concerns about how they perform during sex. "Uh, can I orgasm through having sex?" "C- can I take my top off?" Like, you know, "Do I need to keep my bra on because I'm embarrassed about my body?" You know, all of these sorts of conversations. Like, I'm not saying that they've been fixed, and I'm sure that there's loads of work that needs to be done for girls to feel better about this stuff, but the conversation's largely been normalized, you know. Like, when you've got feral girl summer being like a meta meme for an entire year, you know that the- this kind of conversation around not shaving your legs or about what your body looks like when you're on your period and all that sort of stuff, like, it's kind of been had. One of-
- CBConnor Beaton
Is that the- is that the equivalent of, like, fuckboy summer? Like, is that a hashtag
- CWChris Williamson
So there was hot girl- there was hot girl summer.
- CBConnor Beaton
Uh-huh.
- CWChris Williamson
Right? Then because every culture- the- a requisite of any cultural movement is a counter-cultural movement to the same thing.
- CBConnor Beaton
(laughs) Right.
- CWChris Williamson
Right? So like, for every, uh, Dan Bilzerian, there's a MGTOW. And for every hot girl summer, there's a feral girl summer. And feral girl summer was advising girls to, like, not wash, not shave. Like just-
- CBConnor Beaton
Ah.
- CWChris Williamson
... completely just descend into slobbery as much as you can, uh, because they needed- every culture needs a counterculture. Um, but yeah, one of the- one of the conversations that's really particularly uncomfortable for guys to talk about is, like, communicating with their partner about what they want in the bedroom and opening up about whether they are or are not hot to trot all the time. Um, you know, there's a- there's an expectation that men are the sexual protagonists and women are the sexual gatekeepers, even within a relationship. Like, how many people listening to this conversation right now have- guys or girls- have had some thought that they haven't ever brought up about who initiates sex? Like, it is so, so common, right?
- CBConnor Beaton
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
For that to be a point of contention that the guy always feels, maybe more often than not perhaps, the guy always feels like it's him that has to do it and the girl's nervous about it because she's- it's the way... there's never been a requirement to train it otherwise, and male and female sex drive works in different ways, blah blah blah, so on and so forth, right? Um, but talking about, like with guys, guys not being in the mood. Like for a girl, if a girl does decide that- in a relationship that she's gonna make the- like, "Let's initiate some sex this evening," but, like, there is an expectation that guys are hot to trot all the time. And if you've had a rough day and you're like, "Darling, I- I know that I'm supposed to just be like, stand to attention upon command..."
- CBConnor Beaton
(laughs) .
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs) "... in many ways. Um, but I'm like, it's just not- not tonight." And then that- that's taken in a very different sort of way. I think that's interpreted in a very different sort of way by women because there is this presumption again that, "Oh, that must be because there's something wrong with me." Whereas we've seen memes, you know, the Family Guy, the Homer Simpson, you know, like try- Johnny Bravo, like trying to get physical female attention from a woman and being rebuffed is just, like, sort of built into the cultural memeplex. I don't think it is in the same way in reverse. And I think that that-
- CBConnor Beaton
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
... you know, also talking about what it is that you want in bed, what level of sexual frequency, fantasies, all that sort of stuff, is such a tough conversation for men to have because again it's- it's even more of a different kind of vulnerability.
- CBConnor Beaton
Mm-hmm. Yeah, there's just this notion that a lot of men hold within themselves that they should have a certain level of proficiency sexually, they- you know, I think that for a lot of men, our sense of identity, our sense of value, our sense of worth, um, specifically with women, rests on how well we can perform. You know, a lot of men's stuff comes back to how well can I perform at work financially, physically, sexually. It's how well can I perform? How long can I perform for? You know, am I the- am I in the top 1% of, you know, dudes that she's been with? Can I rock her world for however many hours? And- and I think that that's- you know, that's definitely a part of it, and I think one of the hard things... I'll give you an example. So I host these live weekends, and one of the questions or one of the things that we'll do is partner guys up and say, "Tell your first sexual experience and tell your worst sexual experience." And it's usually a story that most men have never told or they've told in a way that is very illustrious, right? It's- they're- they're- it's more like, "Yeah, this- it was- it was incredible. My first time was amazing and it was so good," and da da da da da.
- CWChris Williamson
Dude, my first time was in an industrial estate car park in the northeast of England in the front passenger seat laid flat of a VW Lupo. So if you thought that- if you thought that- if you thought doing it normally for the first time was difficult, I was like, "Fucking give me 10 out of 10 difficulty. Let's try and do some feng shui, like, yin yoga at the same-" (laughs)
- CBConnor Beaton
Oh man.
- CWChris Williamson
"... at the same time." So yeah.
- CBConnor Beaton
Mine was, uh, on my girlfriend's- in high school at my girlfriend's father's pool table, and it was brutally uncomfortable.
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs) .
- CBConnor Beaton
And it- and it didn't last a hell- a hell of a lot- you know, a lot longer. It didn't last as long as I wanted to, that's- that's for sure. Uh, and mostly because it was just the most awkward situation 'cause I could hear him upstairs and I was like, "This is bad news."
- CWChris Williamson
Wow.
- CBConnor Beaton
Uh, but yeah, it's-
- CWChris Williamson
Have you heard, is, is there a meme in America of a danger wank? Do you know what that is?
- CBConnor Beaton
(laughs) I do know what that is. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah, so you'd call your mum's name and see if you could finish before she came upstairs.
- CBConnor Beaton
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
I'm like descending back into year seven, year eight, year nine school, like jokes. Uh, but yeah, that was the, that's danger sex, is the equivalent.
- CBConnor Beaton
Danger sex, yeah.
- 1:15:15 – 1:25:36
Increasing Testosterone Improve’s Men’s Capacity
- CWChris Williamson
like thinking about this convergence of difficulties that guys are facing in the bedroom. So I, um, I started working with a blood testing company about six months ago in America. It's you... TRT and HRT and hormone optimization and stuff, just not a conversation really in the UK. Um, and I knew, uh, well, I wanted to do more preventative medicine, all the rest of it. Anyway, get my bloods done. Never had my T levels done. Had them done? Don't think I'd had them done properly before. Anyway, uh, 495. Came back at 495. So I'm in the normal range, but fuck, I'm at the, like, low end of normal. Definitely not for me as someone who trains a lot and wants mental clarity and energy and stuff to, to do. So anyway, they, they put me on a protocol which didn't include TRT, so d- nothing like super nuclear, but like, I needed to take boaron to free up my free T, and I needed to do like, uh, pharmaceutical grade of magnesium glycinate because the version I was using wasn't c- converting and some omega SLS, there were more organ meats and more blah blah. All this stuff, right? Like a fucking, uh, ton of different things. And I got my results back about two weeks ago, and it was at 1006.
- CBConnor Beaton
Good.
- CWChris Williamson
So it's gone from 495 to 1006 and the felt difference in my mood, in my energy, uh, libido, everything is fucking palpable. And I mean, yeah, I've doubled, I've like more than doubled my testosterone, so like, shock, horror. Um, but-
- CBConnor Beaton
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
... um, realizing that, oh, I thought that that was life. I thought that was normal.
- CBConnor Beaton
Mm.
- CWChris Williamson
And it's like, um, it's almost like changing the laws of thermodynamics or whatever of your existence. It's so fundamental to the texture of your own experience, right? It really is like the parameters within which you exist. This is the way that I am, right?
- CBConnor Beaton
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
Um, and, uh, yeah, I, you know, to fold in the waters turning the frogs gay, uh, the like... (laughs)
- CBConnor Beaton
(laughs) That was great.
- CWChris Williamson
It's just everything, every, everything at the moment seems to be very well, uh, uh, very conducive toward men, uh, not being able to psychologically, physically, hormonally, socially, archetypally embody anything that is traditionally masculine. And ultimately, it's not just guys that will struggle because the women out there who want to find a partner or who have a partner that they don't feel is showing up for them in the way that they could, you know?
- CBConnor Beaton
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
Like having that belief in your partner that I know that, that you could be a really resilient man, a, a strong man emotionally as well as physically. I know that you could be fitter, I know that you could be more disciplined, I know that you could be more stylish. I could, you know, you could have more self-esteem, more confidence, more self-belief. A lot of these things are challenges that both men and women are facing, right? Like if one sex loses, both sexes lose.
- CBConnor Beaton
Yeah. Yes. I mean, I, I, I always appreciate the picture that you paint for what men are up against in our culture, you know, in our current times. Like I, I think it's, it's challenging. You know, there's a lot of adversity in a lot of different ways, but getting your health together, you know, making sure that your T levels are, are in a good place is incredibly important. I'm gonna take a little bit of a side tangent on this one. Um, I listened to this interview, I think her name is Ayala, and she was on-
- CWChris Williamson
Yes. Ala.
- CBConnor Beaton
... Lex Fridman's pod- Yeah, Ala.
- CWChris Williamson
Ala. Yep.
- CBConnor Beaton
And-She had done this study, uh, this piece of, like, research, I think it was just through her Twitter, uh, that showed that on average women want men to be more sexually dominant in the bedroom than men want to be sexually dominant in the bedroom. And so, I repeated the same polling on my Instagram to kind of see, you know, what- what would happen to- to sort of gain, uh, some insight into that. And sure enough, the exact same thing came back, where, on average, women wanted men who were more sexually dominant in the bedroom than men were wanting to be sexually dominant in the bedroom. And I- I think that that's telling in the sense that a few things are playing into that. One, certainly testosterone levels, right? If your T-levels are down, you don't have the drive, you don't have the motivation, you don't have the energy. You know, that's- that's going to impact you in a very, very real way, and it's gonna impact on- on all fronts but especially, you know, in the bedroom sexually. Um, and secondly, I think that it's a bit of a conundrum for a lot of men because when they hear the word dominance, when they ... it's like, "Oh, you want me to be sexually dominant?" It's like, well, (laughs) that's not the narrative that I'm hearing socially, right? That's not the narrative that I'm hearing online. So again, I think this is the conundrum that a lot of men find themselves in, which is you need to be able to temper your aggression or your sense-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- CBConnor Beaton
... of dominant depending on the circumstance and the situation. And you need to know unequivocally that you are asserting the right amount of dominance to- for the situation.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah. Right.
- CBConnor Beaton
And I mean, there's just so many parameters that you-
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- CBConnor Beaton
... as a man have to take into account. Like, I-
- CWChris Williamson
Thread this fucking needle through a- a minefield filled with Me Too headlines.
- CBConnor Beaton
(laughs) Right, right. It's like, I mean, i- uh, in some ways I'm very thankful that I'm not out in the market today because that would be- that would be brutal. I think that'd be a very brutal thing to- to traverse for a lot of men. Um-
- CWChris Williamson
Here's- here's the other thing to- to fold into that as well, which is every time that you make a- a- a point like this there is ... And a lot of the time it's actually male feminists that bring this point up, or male leftists that bring this point up. Um, or sometimes, like, quite sort of forthcoming gay guys too.
Episode duration: 1:33:23
Install uListen for AI-powered chat & search across the full episode — Get Full Transcript
Transcript of episode OFMEP2IPjiY
Get more out of YouTube videos.
High quality summaries for YouTube videos. Accurate transcripts to search & find moments. Powered by ChatGPT & Claude AI.
Add to Chrome