"All Self-Help Boils Down To One Truth" - Jimmy Carr (4K)

Chris Williamson 0:00 Jimmy Carr, welcome to the show.

Jimmy Carr 0:01 Thank you very much. I'm a, I'm a big fan of it. I'm kind of nervous about talking to you, in a weird way, because I like the show. I, I really like you as a kind of cultural, um, entity. I think it's a really interesting kinda journey you've had. And I get so much from this show. You know that phrase, I think you use it probably more than any other phrase, "Does it grow corn?" And for me, this show really kinda grows corn. There's so many little things that I've taken from this, that I've kind of gone, "Oh, I'm gonna, I'm gonna do that. I'm gonna do something with that." So kind of the, the practical application of the wisdom, what you get out of people seems to be, um, very easy to integrate into life.

Chris Williamson 0:42 Right, so the bar's been set high for you today then, if you start-

Jimmy Carr 0:45 Yeah, I better-

Chris Williamson 0:46 ... dicking around.

Jimmy Carr 0:46 Well, I mean, dicking around is sort of what I do. So the other thing is like, I, I kinda get more nervous being myself than being sort of the comedic, um, persona. The, you know, just being funny.

Chris Williamson 0:57 Mm.

Jimmy Carr 0:57 Just being on things, being funny, I find very easy. It's a, it's an interesting sort of life lesson, the idea of like, what do you find easy that other people find difficult? Go for that. Do that for a living. That's, that's ... there's, there's gonna be money there, there's gonna be (laughs) , there's gonna be some gold. You're gonna be okay. If you find it easy and everyone else is going, "That's impossible," so you're standing up in front of people being funny, I find very easy. Like, these kind of conversations, I slightly, you slightly second-guess yourself.

Chris Williamson 1:23 It's what you're used to, I think. It's what you spend a lot of time becoming acclimatized to doing.

Jimmy Carr 1:28 Yeah, I suppose. Uh, you know, it's just that thing of, I've always said in comedy, people sort of talk about how many years they've been doing comedy, and it seems faintly ridiculous. It's kind of, it's like when you talk to an airline pilot, they've got a really good view on it, they talk about how many hours they've got in the sky. And for me, like, there's no substitute for, um, stage time. And I'm sure for you, there's no substitute for, for this, for actually doing it. Everything else is, is kind of, uh, uh, doesn't matter how many years you've had a podcast. I think something about the frequency of your show as well.

Chris Williamson 1:55 Mm-hmm.

Jimmy Carr 1:56 It's the, it's kind of, it's always there. There's always something new.

Chris Williamson 2:00 You talk about the most important question to ask yourself being, what do you want?

Jimmy Carr 2:05 Yeah, I mean, I talk about that an awful lot. I, I studied a lot of, uh, studied and was very interested in sort of NLP, and that question of what do you want, in the micro, in the macro, being, um, being the absolute key in sort of life. Because people sort of, um, I suppose it's, it's, it's that thing of going, what does something represent? Peop- someone might say, "Well, I want a Ferrari." Um, but why? If you, if you sort of dig a little deeper, you can't just ask once, "What do you want?" "Well, I want a Ferrari and a Rolex and all of the trappings," but actually what they want is status. So it's kind of asking yourself, what game are you gonna play?

Chris Williamson 2:41 Mm.

Jimmy Carr 2:42 I've read a lot of that, um, uh, Rene Girard, uh, stuff about sort of memetic desires. So this idea that you've got what you really want, at kind of a, a fundamental level, it's about you and what you perceive you should have compared to others. So this idea of kinda being honest about what you want and why you want it.

Chris Williamson 3:02 Well, splitting apart what is a genuine desire that's come from you, that's been self-authored, and what is just the things that you've taken from the way you dealt with past trauma and what your parents valued and what society says that you should, and the paths of least resistance and your genetic predisposition, this beautiful quote that says, "Ultimately, happiness comes down to choosing between the discomfort of becoming aware of our mental afflictions and the discomfort of becoming ruled by them." And it's this-

Jimmy Carr 3:34 Oh, yeah, that's, it's a lot though, isn't it? I mean, it's like, I don't think anyone gets there-

Chris Williamson 3:38 No.

Jimmy Carr 3:38 ... by the way. I think there's, there's kind, there's slightly ... I think sometimes when I hear people kind of interview talking about this stuff, there's a, there's a sense of, "Oh, well, you know, I'm enlightened now, and I know," knowing that you, you know, you d- um, "I only want that thing because you've got that thing, and I want the new iPhone 'cause you've gotten the new iPhone." Uh, knowing that doesn't really make any difference, because when you're out there in the world, you still gotta live a life and do something.

Chris Williamson 4:02 Correct.

Jimmy Carr 4:02 But it's about what, uh, that Will Storr book I thought was phenomenal, um, The Status Game. I mean, all these books are great actually. He's a really interesting-

Chris Williamson 4:11 He's a-

Jimmy Carr 4:11 ... sort of underrated writer.

Chris Williamson 4:13 ... outstanding writer.

Jimmy Carr 4:13 He's wonderful. But that thing of like going, well, actually you pick what status game you play in. You can have anything. You can't have everything. It's that thing of, just the, the words seem to be very important to me, the idea of saying, um, you can work for anything in life, to a kid, as opposed to you can have anything. Is the difference between, um, you know, ambition and entitlement, in, you know, summed up.

Chris Williamson 4:38 Mm.

Jimmy Carr 4:38 It was that lovely thing you sent out the other day.

Chris Williamson 4:40 Yes.

Jimmy Carr 4:41 Uh, that, you know, that, the difference between ambition and, um, entitlement being, you know, seeing what you-

Chris Williamson 4:47 Ambition, uh, ambition is when you expect yourself to close the gap between what you have and what you want. Entitlement is when you expect others to close the gap between what you have and what you want.

Jimmy Carr 4:57 Yeah, that thing of like agency seems ... uh, that's very high on my list of like getting back to what do you want. Agency. I want the, um, I want control to be in here. Like, I think it's better to be a stand-up. I mean, the thing I've been thinking about recently is, um, being stoic, doing less better.

Chris Williamson 5:17 Mm.

Jimmy Carr 5:17 Being a stand-up is a great job. And there's so many stand-ups that get the job of being a stand-up, and then they want to be an actor. And you, I go, "You're mad. That's n- it's not as good a job." It's better to do a podcast than to have a TV show. In th- because you're in charge.

Chris Williamson 5:32 Yeah.

Jimmy Carr 5:32 You're your own boss. You're, you know, kind of w- in a cancel-proof, not that you'd be particularly bothered about that, but the idea of going, "You're in charge, and you've got agency, and you can do what you want."

Chris Williamson 5:40 Well, there's a level-

Jimmy Carr 5:40 There's, there's a huge power to that.

Chris Williamson 5:42 There's a level of narcissism, I think, that comes with believing that you would be able to beat somebody else at them doing one thing while you're doing two things. Okay, so you think that you're going to be a better podcaster than the guy that just does a podcast whilst trying to do a podcast and run a business and be on TV and fly around the world and d- d- d- d- do all of these different things?

Jimmy Carr 6:04 Yeah. It's also that thing of like going, if your aim is sort of happiness, I think having a-... process-driven ambition rather than an outcome-driven ambition. Like, what do you want to do rather than what you wanna be. You know, so that idea of going, like, you do a podcast and you live for it. It seems to be pretty much all you care about, and you're loving it, and you, you, you kind of embody that. And it's, it gets back to that Naval thing of, like, what's play for you? What's easy for you? What's play? What's just, what's fun? No one's gonna put this effort in. Look around, look at the 4K cameras or whatever. The, no one's putting this effort in that doesn't really care about it. So someone trying to fake it and go, "Well, I want what he's getting for that. I want the ad revenue."

Chris Williamson 6:45 Mm-hmm.

Jimmy Carr 6:46 It's like you, well, no, that's the, you're playing in the wrong game.

Chris Williamson 6:49 There's a, a really great quote from Mark Manson where he talks about the most important question to ask yourself is what pain are you willing to endure in your life rather than what pleasure do you want? Because any pleasure or any pursuit that you want is going to come with an in-kind payment of pain.

Jimmy Carr 7:03 Well, it is-

Chris Williamson 7:03 Even your stuff, the, the fatigue, the, the road, the travel, everything else. Yeah.

Jimmy Carr 7:06 But, but that thing of, like, uh, you know, the, the all self-help is hard choices now, easy life later. Everything is the marshmallow test. Everything is about saying, look, you know, that famous marshmallow test of give a kid m-, you know, one marshmallow now or two later. That seems to be a really good indicator in life of going what are you willing to... And, and, and work really is, work is the sacrifice for later, and it's, it's really about that timeframe. The, uh, probably the, the biggest thing I got from this show, uh, and from following you was that idea of serving yourself in 24 hours. You have to serve someone. What are you gonna do today that you tomorrow will appreciate?

Chris Williamson 7:47 Yeah.

Jimmy Carr 7:47 Uh, 'cause I, uh, for something about a day seems about the right timeframe. Like, if it's t- if it's in six months time and you're trying to go to the gym and motivate yourself by, "I'm gonna look great in six months," it's like, ah, I don't know. I don't know if you're gonna do that. I, I don't think that's a motivator because-

Chris Williamson 8:02 It's written on my fridge, "What would you tomorrow want you today to do?" It's written on the, on my fridge.

Jimmy Carr 8:05 Yeah, and it's a, it's a great... I think there's a book in that. I d- I think genuinely, I think it's such a, a powerful sort of meme.

Chris Williamson 8:11 You've got me writing. You have told me to write five different books-

Jimmy Carr 8:15 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 8:15 ... over the last week that we've spent together.

Jimmy Carr 8:16 Uh, but I like the idea of that thing of going, 'cause it's, it's, you know, you listen to a podcast, but the book seems to be, the book and the course seems to be the thing that it's just a way of getting all of your thoughts on this together. It's not gonna be-

Chris Williamson 8:28 It's a full treatment.

Jimmy Carr 8:28 Yeah. Um, but I think that idea of, like, your, the, uh, you know, what are you gonna do that's gonna make you happy in 24 hours? And that's really about saying, well, your ambitions should be, um, feelings, not things.

Chris Williamson 8:43 What's the difference?

Jimmy Carr 8:44 Well, the idea that you go, "Well, how do I want to feel?" is something that you go, "Well, that's, that's an ambition you can have." I wanna feel happy, I wanna feel contented, I wanna feel healthy, I wanna feel fulfilled, uh, wanting those things. Wanting material things, it, well, the reason you want the material thing is to give you the feeling, so just cut out the middle man.

Chris Williamson 9:02 Yeah.

Jimmy Carr 9:02 I mean, listen, it's easy for me to say. I'm rich and famous, baby.

Chris Williamson 9:05 (laughs) It's, it's-

Jimmy Carr 9:07 It's, you know, it's like it's-

Chris Williamson 9:07 Well, you talk, you talk to-

Jimmy Carr 9:08 ... it's slightly that thing of, like, where you're calling from, but you, you just realize there's just more stuff.

Chris Williamson 9:13 Over dinner, you spoke about the difference between jealousy and envy.

Jimmy Carr 9:18 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 9:18 And I thought that that was really interesting.

Jimmy Carr 9:20 Well, I think that it's a conception where I don't really mind which word you use. But envy for me is, is good, because it tells you what you want. So if you see someone and they've got a terrific physique and you go, "Oh, I wanna, I wanna look like that guy," that tells you what you want. That's, that's great. When you see someone with a, uh, I don't know, a, um, uh, a beautiful girl, and you don't want him to have it, but you don't want it, that strikes me that is a very, uh, that's kind of, um, a bitterness and resentment-

Chris Williamson 9:50 Mm.

Jimmy Carr 9:51 ... and it's, it's mean, and it's, it's that, that, uh, I think it's a, it's a, it's a Nietzsche quote, isn't it? If you, um, uh, resentment is when you think someone has ruined your life. And there is someone that's ruined your life. It's you. So it's really, I find that very powerful, the idea that you want-

Chris Williamson 10:09 But that's the agentic frame again, right, that you're taking control of that when you realize that it is you that's been in control of most of the things that have gone on. That's taking agency.

Jimmy Carr 10:21 Yes.

Chris Williamson 10:21 That's taking responsibility.

Jimmy Carr 10:22 But I think that we're, we're sort of set up not to do that, right? We're, we're set, like, and as the economy changes, as our world changes, I think the idea of getting a job is, is a little bit, you know, becomes slightly nanny state. It's like, well, I'll get a job and they'll pay me, and then they'll, they'll worry about that, and I'll just do this job for them. And it's like this idea of, like, new jobs are happening all the time. It feels like there's a, there's a new economy kind of sprouting up and people are doing their own thing. It feels like it's not just comedians. I mean, obviously I'm, uh, very bought into the being a standup comedian world-

Chris Williamson 10:53 Mm.

Jimmy Carr 10:53 ... but people are doing their own thing. It's lovely.

Chris Williamson 10:56 Yeah, I, I

Chris Williamson 10:57 wonder, talking about the skill acquisition thing, obviously the pace that you tour at, how many shows have you done this year so far?

Jimmy Carr 11:05 220, something like that.

Chris Williamson 11:07 And there's probably been about 250 to 280 days so far this year?

Jimmy Carr 11:12 Yeah, something like that. But I make TV shows as well, so, you know, I keep busy.

Chris Williamson 11:17 (laughs)

Jimmy Carr 11:18 But it's, uh, you know, but really, if you compare it to someone with a real job-

Chris Williamson 11:21 Yeah.

Jimmy Carr 11:21 ... it's not that much work because the way that I perceive it is I work for, you know, two hours or four hours a night depending on how many shows.

Chris Williamson 11:27 Yeah.

Jimmy Carr 11:27 And, uh, yeah, most people work eight hours.

Chris Williamson 11:30 Yeah.

Jimmy Carr 11:30 Now, there's a bit of travel involved and stuff, but it's, it's, it's a pleasure. If you find something you love doing, you never work again. That's the adage.

Chris Williamson 11:36 Well, I suppose if you look at that's such a good frame to say, wow, 250 days of the year or 220 days of the year, and there's only been 280 days or whatever. Okay, well, if you were to roll that forward for any normal nine-to-five person, that's, that's probably the right number of days, or maybe even a little bit less. And there's something about taking a working class spit-and-sawdust mentality into the realm where it, it doesn't seem like it's, it's supposed to be there, but you actually end up seeing disproportionate returns.

Jimmy Carr 12:10 Yeah, I suppose it's that thing of, like, it's, uh...... it's really about what you're willing to put in as well. Like, if you find something that you love doing, well, why would you wanna stop doing that? Just do, do more of that. And you get better. It is that thing where you go, "It's time in the gym." It seems that stress is very good for us, in, in all areas. You know, going to the gym is stressing your body, and working and coming up with new stuff is, you know, you're, you're stressing yourself. You know, so that thing of, like, trying to, you know, trying new stuff at every show. You... It's only a... You know, you saw the show the other night, it's only a five-minute bit where I get out a bit of paper and try some new jokes.

Chris Williamson 12:45 Mm-hmm.

Jimmy Carr 12:45 But that bit means that the next tour is very easy, because five minutes at every show...

Chris Williamson 12:50 Yeah.

Jimmy Carr 12:50 You, you sort of bank a lot of stuff, bank a lot of new ideas, and you have a reason to think about the new thing always.

Chris Williamson 12:57 Mm.

Jimmy Carr 12:57 You have a reason to be thinking about, "Okay, what's the new thing? What's the new thing? And what's a new idea for a joke? What am I gonna try tonight?"

Chris Williamson 13:03 Well, that's a big hack, I think. You know, it's the Feynman technique. "In order to be able to learn it, you must first be able to teach it," type thing. But there's an equivalent when it comes to personal growth as well, I think, which is the best way to ensure that you're going to continue to develop is to have an outlet where it's going to be scrutinized by other people. Like, so much of the learning and the reading and the stuff that I do is exclusively because I know that I need to be remotely interesting or prepared for the next guest-

Jimmy Carr 13:33 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 13:33 ... that comes on.

Jimmy Carr 13:34 Well, it's that, it is that thing where you go, the joy of stand-up comedy, the feedback loop is-

Chris Williamson 13:38 Immediately. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Jimmy Carr 13:38 ... it's so quick. I mean, people just immediately... And, and an audience, you know, Lenny Bruce first said it, the audience is a genius. They know immediately, "That's funny. That's not funny. That's acceptable. That's not acceptable." They make the call on all that stuff. So you're just, like, presenting stuff and going, "Is that okay? Is that all right?" I mean, you know, it's, it's really easy because you just, you write... I've written so many more jokes that don't work than you. So many more. Like, thousands more.

Chris Williamson 14:05 It's that Edison thing about, "I haven't failed, I've just found 10,000 ways that I wasn't successful."

Jimmy Carr 14:11 Yeah, and you, but you eventually get to it, and then you go... Well, you know, what's, what's the stand-up comedian kind of superpower? It's an hour. Maybe 90 minutes if you go and see a live show, 'cause there's a bit of stuff as well. But the, you know, putting together specials, and you go, "Right, it's, it's, that's kind of the best of me over the last 18 months. That's all the funny stuff I, I said in the last 18 months, and that's there for you." Just... I think it's more relevant than music. I think music's incredibly important and should be taught more in schools. But I think stand-up should be a course in schools. If you think about what it's about, it's about verbal dexterity, right? And it's about being able to express yourself, and it's about finding your voice and expressing who you are. And it's a perspective on life where you're seeing the lighter side and trying to find fun in something. The, you know, there's two stories. You know, one story's about a guy, um, uh, shitting himself on a train, and it's just a, it's like, "Ah, I had the worst day ever." And then there's some perspective where you go, "That's the funniest story I've ever heard." There- there's, there's something about the ability of a comedian to kind of shift perspectives. And for me, comedy has a function in society that no one is calling, which is, it's the, "We're pushing the Overton window." We, we're always at the edge of what is and what isn't acceptable. Like, no, I'm not just talking about like, "I happen to tell edgy jokes." That's not what this is. It's, "I'm seeing things as they are, but kind of with new eyes." That's sort of what comics do. Even the most kind of mainstream observational comedy, if done well, you're sort of questioning the reality. You're saying, "Well, this is, this is, uh, this is not normal. This is not how things should be. This is weird. Am I the only one thinking this? Is it just me?" That kind of trope of comedy. And it pushes what we, what we think about the world. It pushes what's acceptable.

Chris Williamson 16:04 You s-

Jimmy Carr 16:04 It's progressive.

Chris Williamson 16:05 You said that comedians are often ahead of the curve on social issues.

Jimmy Carr 16:09 I think they are. I think, like, comedians really do kind of... It's the canary in the mine. It's

Jimmy Carr 16:15 the sort of testing the air of what you can say. And, you know, politics lags behind.

Chris Williamson 16:20 And so does culture. You know, if you want to know what are going to be the biggest talking points amongst normal people in about 18 months' time, look at the jokes that comedians are making today.

Jimmy Carr 16:31 Well, I think there's a, there's a, there's a argument to be said that comedy lives in sort of a space between public and private discourse. And it strikes me that there's never been a wider gap between public and private discourse. What people are saying in bars and homes and on social media to their friends, um, and what the party line... You know, you sort of, the party line's pretty strong at the moment on what you can and what you can't say. You know, if you wanna see where power really lives, what can't you say? It's interesting, right? What can't you say in a society? What isn't acceptable in the world? And you get into very interesting topics. I mean, all the stuff you talk about on Modern Wisdom falls into that sort of category of going, "Well, should we talk about this?" You know, when you talk about, you know, whether it's environmentalism or gender or, you know, what's, what's happening in the world, it's very, it's very interesting to kind of call that and to, to mess around with it. So it's actually, it's k- it's kind of a great space. And comedy, it sugars the pill as well. You, you know, it's, it's almost the perfect drug for me, stand-up comedy, because it's the dopamine hit if you don't quite know where the line is gonna come-

Chris Williamson 17:39 Mm-hmm.

Jimmy Carr 17:40 ... and it's the serotonin pleasure of laughter. And going out to a live show has that incredible sort of effect on people of... It- it- it's a physical response. I'm, you know, I've said it before, I, I think of myself as a drug dealer, but you have the drugs on you.

Chris Williamson 17:56 That's so nice.

Jimmy Carr 17:57 You know, you've, you've got everything on you, but I'm able to sort of tease it out so I can get across borders with no problem.

Chris Williamson 18:03 (laughs)

Jimmy Carr 18:05 It's interesting, isn't it? It's like the best drug in the world.

Chris Williamson 18:07 That's great.

Jimmy Carr 18:07 What's the best drug in the world?

Chris Williamson 18:08 I wonder-

Jimmy Carr 18:09 Dopamine.

Chris Williamson 18:09 I would love to know what the hormonal cascade of someone listening to a great podcast is feeling.I'm gonna guess that there would be a good chunk of serotonin and maybe some dopamine from, "I've realized something," or, "Here's two ideas that I didn't see before, and they've been tied together and they've been wrapped up in a bow, and ooh."

Jimmy Carr 18:25 What's interesting, the- the dopamine thing, the thing that we were discussing the other day that I found very interesting was, like, the idea that you could go, if you had one data point on someone, uh, their view on abortion, let's say. What else could you... what else could you figure out from that?

Chris Williamson 18:39 Correct.

Jimmy Carr 18:39 You know? So the- the modern day... I suppose it would be modern day cold reading, right?

Chris Williamson 18:44 Yeah.

Jimmy Carr 18:44 So if, you know, old school cold reading was, you know, someone at a seance going, "Has anyone lost a Mary-"

Chris Williamson 18:49 (laughs)

Jimmy Carr 18:50 "... in Catholic Ireland?" I mean, fucking throw a stone.

Chris Williamson 18:54 (laughs)

Jimmy Carr 18:54 But the idea, this kind of modern day cold reading on, "What do you... what do you think about Brexit?" Someone tells you and you go, "I know everything that I need to know about you-"

Chris Williamson 19:00 Yeah.

Jimmy Carr 19:00 "... from that one data point." So it's... with podcasts, it's un- uh, it... The thing is, it's about the dopamine of going, "When does someone surprise you with their view?"

Chris Williamson 19:08 Dude, I- I... So after our conversation, we went for dinner on Thursday, and then I wrote my newsletter based off of the inspiration from that. Such a good way to judge whether or not the content creator that you are listening to is acting genuinely and taking their insights from what they truly are interested in, and being honest, is when was the last time that they surprised you with something that they said?

Jimmy Carr 19:34 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 19:34 Because-

Jimmy Carr 19:35 Oh, the ho- the honesty is really interesting 'cause, uh, uh, it's- it's weird being a comic 'cause everything I say on stage is a lie. Ultimately, jokes are little lies. But comics leak. There's a weird thing, you can watch someone on stage or watch, you know, your favorite comic or whatever, and you kind of have a sense of who they are. It just- it just happens. You don't really choose your style as a comic, it kind of chooses you. It's kind of... it's who you are. It's really... it's kind of an interesting thing. I think that-

Chris Williamson 19:57 It's a caricature of the self.

Jimmy Carr 19:58 Well, not even a caricature. I think there's something about... It's- it's very authentic. And there's something about podcasting, especially the long form shows, you can't hide. There's nowhere for you to hide. So the thing that I found kind of fascinating about your journey, um... And I- I... You know, uh, my only critique of your show is that I don't think you ever talk about yourself enough, because it's... You're fabulous at listening and teasing things out of people and- and holding a space, but you never really talk about your journey. And maybe you did in the very early episodes, and I missed them. But the idea of, like, going... to go from a guy on Love Island running clubs to this strikes me as a... I mean, you talk about agency. You- you basically kind of invented a job that didn't really exist, wasn't really a thing.

Chris Williamson 20:45 Mm-hmm.

Jimmy Carr 20:46 And now, of course, you know, it is and, you know, everyone's got a podcast, but not like this.

Chris Williamson 20:52 Yeah. Yeah, it's interesting. I guess, you know, whenever I sit down with someone... For a long time, when you start a show, you're riding on the coattails of whoever is in front of you. You know, I'm riding on the coattails of Rory Sutherland or Jordan Peterson or Douglas Murray or whoever, and then... I'm always really interested in just making the show an amazing platform and trampoline for the guest. If I walk away with the guest shining as much as possible, that's- that's a good day at the office for me.

Jimmy Carr 21:19 Right.

Chris Williamson 21:20 I made this as energetic or sedate or thoughtful or exciting or whatever as needed to be to get the best insights out of this spectacular person who's very interesting and I want to learn from, that's a good day at the office. And it always inevitably puts me in the back seat, but that's how I designed it, right? I designed it to not be... It's not called The Chris Williamson Show, right?

Jimmy Carr 21:44 Right.

Chris Williamson 21:44 It's called Modern Wisdom because I want it to be the most interesting people, the smartest thinkers on the planet. What have they got to say? Life is hard, and this show s- should help. That's where it is. That being said, I know that after a while sort of the cult of personality starts to kick in and you think, "Oh, well, people actually want now not just to know about them, but to know about you." And I've got this fucking live show happening where it's me on stage for, uh, uh, nearly two hours, just me.

Jimmy Carr 22:12 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 22:12 That's terrifying.

Jimmy Carr 22:13 How's that? How are you finding the... 'Cause you did the first one on Saturday, right?

Chris Williamson 22:16 I had a dry run, yeah.

Jimmy Carr 22:17 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 22:17 Uh, assisted by some words of wisdom from you the night before. Um, it was good. I really enjoyed it. Scary. I don't know how you guys do it. Uh-

Jimmy Carr 22:25 What do you mean? You just did it.

Chris Williamson 22:27 But it's different. What I do is I just get to waffle. What you have to do is this unbelievably 0% fat, lean, down to the nothing but muscle, fucking bodybuilder presentation up on stage.

Jimmy Carr 22:39 I don't know. I think it's... I think it's... You know, what are people looking for really? I mean, with laughter they're looking for... Uh, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a response you could kind of measure. You can look at laughs per minute and go, "Well, you're doing a great job 'cause you're getting the laughs minute." But ultimately, they're coming out to be part of a crowd. They could watch it at home on Netflix, but they're coming out to see a show-

Chris Williamson 22:56 Yes.

Jimmy Carr 22:56 ... because they wanna feel connected. And what are you offering? Connection. Y- people want to feel connected and you're standing on stage and you're saying, "Well, you're giving of yourself. Here's what I learned, here's what I think." And, you know, hopefully they- they feel like they're- they're with like-minded people, they're in a room that it-

Chris Williamson 23:13 Collective effervescence, I think it's called, yeah.

Jimmy Carr 23:15 Well, it's- it's tribal, isn't it? It's that idea that we're... we sort of... there's an illusion that we're individuals. I really like that line, there's, um, there's no such thing as a baby. It's always a baby and someone caring for the baby. It's a baby and a mother, a baby and a father, a baby and a family. You know, babies don't exist on their own. We're all babies. We all... It takes a village. You know, if you look around behind the cameras at the other people that are just in the room right now, nevermind the other people that work on the podcast, the idea that a standup is standing on stage on his own.

Chris Williamson 23:44 Mm.

Jimmy Carr 23:44 It's an illusion. It's a very pleasing illusion-

Chris Williamson 23:46 (laughs)

Jimmy Carr 23:47 ... because we're in our heads a lot of the time, but we are searching for community in a space where that's sort of been lost. You know, the- the idea that we're kind of... we've never been more connected and never felt more alienated.

Chris Williamson 24:00 Well, you talk-

Jimmy Carr 24:01 Because it's about the depth of the connection.

Chris Williamson 24:03 In other news, this episode is brought to you by Epidemic Sound. If you have ever tried to put sound effects or music behind any video, you will know just how hard it is to do. Epidemic Sound has over 90,000 sound effects plus a vast music library that will avoid any copyright concerns. Your videos are not going to get demonetized or infringe on someone's copyright, which happens all the time if you're not using a professional library. All of their tracks are professionally produced by a diverse collection of artists and are exclusive to the platform. If you've ever been wondering how your favorite creators take their videos to the next level, a lot of it comes with sound design, and that is the sound library selection they have access to. So many of them...... are using Epidemic Sound. And you can join them for free for 30 days by clicking the link in the description below or going to share.epidemicsound.com/modernwisdom. And if you cancel within that 30 days, you can still keep all of the sounds that you've used during your trial period. That's share.epidemicsound.com/modernwisdom. We spoke the other night about the problems of the self. You have a problem, or there are, there are many problems that are associated with this obsession with the self and the rise of the individual.

Jimmy Carr 25:14 Well, I think that's, you know, that's the, yeah, it's, it strikes me that it's, uh, if you, if you look at different communities around the world, you can sort of see where, there's certain communities where the self is, uh, is sacrosanct, and there's other places where not so much, uh, you know, it's much more tribal. Let me say, it's kind of an interesting thought, my favorite quote of all time is William Gibson, "The future is here, but it's not evenly distributed." And you think, "Uh, wow," like, yeah, of course.

Chris Williamson 25:44 What does that mean to you?

Jimmy Carr 25:45 Well, it means that there's a utopia in the world. I'm, I'm a very positive person. I mean, I really do think the world is great and we're gonna crack it. I think we may have already solved most of the problems in the world, but in, in, in just particular areas, right? So the, y- y- you know, so you go to Portugal, let's say, go to Lisbon now, and the drug laws changed 15 years ago. They legalized all drugs, said, "All drugs are legal, and we're gonna take all the money we were spending on fighting, uh, the war on drugs, which we're just patently losing, we're gonna take all that money and we're gonna spend it on rehabs and we're gonna spend it on education and we're gonna spend it on, uh, making it easier for people to make good choices." Great. And it worked. You walk around Lisbon now, one of the safest cities in Europe, it's magnificent, it's bug- buzzing. It's, it's fabulous. And you go, "That's, that's a brilliant idea. W- why don't we just take that and do that here?" It seems to work 'cause, y- you know, the alternative, and people sort of go, "Yeah, but, you know, drugs aren't good and drugs..." I agree, I don't do drugs, it's not my thing. And some people have got real issues around them, but you go, "But what we're doing at the moment isn't working, and that seems to work." And then you'll always have a very small percentage of people that have, you know, real problems, and that's fine. But the, at least if you know those people aren't criminalized, then they don't... Most petty crime is drug-related. So you, that's a problem, that's been fixed, we could just take that. I think the energy crisis has been solved, but only on nuclear submarines. Nuclear submarines strike me as that's there. Why, why is no one talking about these? People are living in tubes with a nuclear reactor, and they have been for 50 years. We've tested it, and those guys seem fine.

Chris Williamson 27:25 Self-sustaining, much worse environment than we've got up here where we can breathe water and we don't need to recirculate the carbon dioxide.

Jimmy Carr 27:31 But... And it's working, right? There you go. There's the... I mean, I'm abs- I'm with Extinction Rebellion. I think there is an environmental crisis.

Chris Williamson 27:39 (laughs)

Jimmy Carr 27:39 It's awful. But I don't think the person that solves the problem is, I don't think we say in 50 years time, "Oh, we came pretty close there to an environmental collapse, but thankfully, someone glued themselves to the top of a car."

Chris Williamson 27:51 (laughs)

Jimmy Carr 27:51 (Puffs) "That did it." I think it's gonna be a physicist that does it, right? It's gonna be a scientist that has a wonderful idea and, and, and does something. So it's that thing if you go, w- if you care about that, where should you be putting your energy? And I think it's, again, it comes back to where's the agency? So that, you know, gluing yourself to the top of a car is, is great. It's saying, "Look, I need, th- it's som- this is important. Something needs to be done." I don't think any politician has the vision to do it. I don't think it gets solved through a law. I think it gets solved through science and technology. And I read, um, uh, David Deutsch's, uh, The Beginning of Infinity, and I was just blown away by what if we're the first 100 billion people? That's how many people have lived, right? Hundred... Yeah, 100 billion.

Chris Williamson 28:46 (laughs)

Jimmy Carr 28:46 Um, I'm including us in that.

Chris Williamson 28:48 Yeah.

Jimmy Carr 28:48 And it could be trillions in the future-

Chris Williamson 28:51 Yeah.

Jimmy Carr 28:51 ... if we g- if we get this right. It's k- it's exciting, right? And the idea that science is this particular meme that can, you know, we've got this AI technology which people seem scared about, and you go, "Well, maybe this is gonna be the solution." People are worried about nuclear catastrophe. We've already priced in the downside, right? We've priced in nuclear war. That's already a possibility.

Chris Williamson 29:14 Mm-hmm.

Jimmy Carr 29:14 Why not take the upside?

Chris Williamson 29:15 Did you read William MacAskill's What We Owe The Future? Did you see that?

Jimmy Carr 29:20 No, but I, I, I heard people talking about it. I, I haven't got around to reading it. Is it, is it good?

Chris Williamson 29:23 Interesting guy. Good. It's, it's an important book, I think, to read, especially if you think about these topics, uh, in a big way.

Jimmy Carr 29:29 Well, that idea of, like, people being... People are important, um, temporally and spatially.

Chris Williamson 29:36 Yes.

Jimmy Carr 29:36 So the idea that we're quite obsessed with us-

Chris Williamson 29:39 Yeah.

Jimmy Carr 29:39 ... in the West-

Chris Williamson 29:40 Yeah.

Jimmy Carr 29:40 ... in America-

Chris Williamson 29:41 And us right now.

Jimmy Carr 29:41 ... Western Europe.

Chris Williamson 29:43 In our village, in our community.

Jimmy Carr 29:45 Yeah. What do we owe the future is a very good question. What do we owe the rest of the world? Because th- the idea that the environmental problem could be solved by doing less and cutting back, and maybe if we live like we lived in 1985, that could cure things, I don't think it's, you know, the population's out of control. I don't see any volunteers.

Chris Williamson 30:03 Have you heard Peter Singer's thought experiment about the drowning child?

Jimmy Carr 30:07 Oh.

Chris Williamson 30:08 This, uh, explains the distance thing that you were talking about very nicely.

Jimmy Carr 30:12 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 30:12 So, um, you're walking down the street and you see a drowning child in the, uh, river that's next to you.

Jimmy Carr 30:19 Does sound like a setup for a joke, doesn't it?

Chris Williamson 30:21 (laughs)

Jimmy Carr 30:21 It sounds like the kind of thing I would go, "So I'm walking down the street, so there's a drowning child in, in a river."

Chris Williamson 30:28 (laughs) Yes.

Jimmy Carr 30:28 Okay.

Chris Williamson 30:29 That's the start.

Jimmy Carr 30:30 Okay.

Chris Williamson 30:30 I- I do- Peter Singer is a nice, softly-spoken Australian man in his late 70s. I don't think that he was meaning it as the setup to a joke, but feel free to take it for tonight.

Jimmy Carr 30:38 Okay.

Chris Williamson 30:39 You, i- if you were to walk past and not save the child, you would be seen as abhorrent, right? The fucking drowning child. You're the only person that's around here. Why would you not go into the river and go and save this kid?... okay, now-

Jimmy Carr 30:51 Some kids are dicks.

Chris Williamson 30:52 (laughs)

Jimmy Carr 30:53 I mean, let's call it.

Chris Williamson 30:55 (laughs)

Jimmy Carr 30:55 Let's call it. If you-

Chris Williamson 30:56 The world's better off.

Jimmy Carr 30:57 Do I know this kid?

Chris Williamson 30:58 No.

Jimmy Carr 30:59 Is it baby Hitler?

Chris Williamson 31:00 No. Why would it be ba- baby Hitler?

Jimmy Carr 31:03 I don't know.

Chris Williamson 31:03 Thought experiment. Go to- go to Hitler.

Jimmy Carr 31:05 Okay, so go on, what's the, uh...

Chris Williamson 31:08 Basically, he continues to use the distance of view. Okay, now the river's 100 yards away.

Jimmy Carr 31:15 Hmm.

Chris Williamson 31:15 Now it's 300 yards away. Now it's half a mile away. Now it's a mile away.

Jimmy Carr 31:19 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 31:19 And the point is, at- at which distance does the drowning child become less important to you? And the argument kind of is that there's no distance.

Jimmy Carr 31:30 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 31:30 It becomes an arbitrary, uh, uh, an arbitrary decision. If you had saved a child that was there now, you would save the child that is on the other side of the planet, starving of-

Jimmy Carr 31:38 Yeah, it's that-

Chris Williamson 31:39 ... whatever the fuck.

Jimmy Carr 31:39 It's that, you get to that, um, I think, quite quickly to that, uh, what, is it Best Things First? The, is it Bjorn Lomborg book about-

Chris Williamson 31:48 Oh. Yeah.

Jimmy Carr 31:48 ... what we, like the idea the UN has got 148 things that they want to do. These are our priorities and you go, "Well, you don't have any priorities then, 'cause there's a lot of things."

Chris Williamson 31:56 Mm-hmm.

Jimmy Carr 31:57 What are the things that we should do now that make a difference? So the simple stuff like mosquito nets really does make, it makes a huge difference.

Chris Williamson 32:03 Well, that's-

Jimmy Carr 32:04 Um, um, what do you, what do you do? Because you go, well, you value, y- you know, your life much more than you value someone's life in... You know, d- it's interesting what we're not talking about. Like, no one talks about what's going on in Venezuela.

Chris Williamson 32:15 Yeah.

Jimmy Carr 32:16 No one seems that bothered about Venezuela at the moment, and it's a, uh, I don't know, the phrase fucking shit show springs to mind.

Chris Williamson 32:22 What's happening in Venezuela?

Jimmy Carr 32:24 It's, it, you know, the stories I'm hearing is, you know, teenagers are hunting cats in the street. Uh...

Chris Williamson 32:29 People are dying of malnutrition.

Jimmy Carr 32:32 Yeah. It's like, it's- it's hell on Earth. Uh, that thing of, like, you know, the future is here but it's not evenly distributed, it goes back as well. You can go back in time.

Chris Williamson 32:41 The past is still here, it just hasn't caught up yet.

Jimmy Carr 32:43 Yeah, it's- it's, you know, there's, not everywhere is kind of n- running on the same system and maybe we should be. Maybe, you know... I mean, we- we live in an incredibly privileged time and I'm big on gratitude, of like the- the opposite of kind of, uh, bitterness and resentment. The idea of just going, "Well, what are you grateful about?" And it's, you can kind of, it's ever expanding. The idea that, like, if I'd been born in North Korea today, nevermind 400 years ago, but today, "Oh, he's really funny, he's really good at saying, you know, offensive things." I wouldn't have lived to feel-

Chris Williamson 33:21 You made it to six and a half years old.

Jimmy Carr 33:22 Yeah, it's gone.

Chris Williamson 33:24 (laughs)

Jimmy Carr 33:25 It's gone, that's not...

Chris Williamson 33:26 Given your penchant for being positive and for gratitude, what do you make of this culture of cynicism that we see on the internet? Fatalism, nihilism, despondency?

Jimmy Carr 33:39 Um, I

Jimmy Carr 33:40 mean, it's, it, uh, the internet's a problem for me because, uh, the anonymity is- is an issue. Um...

Chris Williamson 33:46 Are you with Jordan Peterson on this?

Jimmy Carr 33:48 What, on the, what he says?

Chris Williamson 33:50 He says that no one, no one should have a Twitter account that hasn't uploaded a photo of their ID.

Jimmy Carr 33:54 I- I- I kind of would think that's be an interesting thing to try. I mean, what's the argument against that? That- that whistleblowers couldn't operate? Well, I guess whistleblowers existed before Twitter and they used to have to go to a paper and the paper would then print the story. That doesn't seem like a terrible system. So, we go back to that and everyone has to upload, and then you go, "Well, you can still shitpost, you can still do all that stuff. It's just, it has to be traceable to you." Because we are who we are when nobody's watching. If you wanna know who you really are, be on your own, go somewhere on your own, on holiday, whatever, and you, that's who you are. If you're driving along and you throw the soda can out of the window of the car, that's who you really are. No one does that with kids in the back. Monster. But if that's, if that, if you do that, if that's who you, if that's, it's interesting to kind of note that. You know, it's the difference between character and reputation, you know, you really know who you are. Reputation is what everyone else thinks about you, but you know who you are in yourself.

Chris Williamson 34:55 It's interesting to me to think about how the way that we- the way that we act when nobody is looking tells us an awful lot about ourselves. It's that adage about, um, listen to how he talks about his mother and how he treats the serving staff at the restaurants when you're on dates. It's like a good litmus test-

Jimmy Carr 35:17 Uh-huh.

Chris Williamson 35:17 ... for the guy that you're dating, because that shows kind of who, when the stakes are incredibly low-

Jimmy Carr 35:26 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 35:26 ... how do you show up as a person? But yeah, go back to the cynicism angle.

Jimmy Carr 35:32 I-

Chris Williamson 35:32 What do you think's going on?

Jimmy Carr 35:33 I- I don't know. I mean, I suppose it's easy. It's- it's easy to be kinda cynical about stuff. It's also, d- do people not feel like they don't have agency? You know, if we, uh, as we learn more about what's going on in the world, as we, you know, y- you're surrounded by news stories that you can do nothing about. You know, COVID was very interesting for that because it actually affected us, but n- normally, you're reading about an earthquake happening and you go, "Well, there's... What can I do? What difference does it make? It's- it's beyond my control." Or they're fracking for oil in Alaska. "Uh, okay, well, I, no one's listening to me." Or they're going to war in this country. "Okay, well, I'm- I'm not sure I've got a- a dog in that race." But, and you feel very, it's what, so it's, you- you- you kind of get cynical about it. I think people have got cynical about politics. They, it feels like they need big, new, exciting ideas that people can get behind, and it feels like a lot of politics is, like, talking about changing this thing a tiny little bit-

Chris Williamson 36:29 Hmm.

Jimmy Carr 36:29 ... and change- changing that, and it's, people are kind of in one camp or the other.

Chris Williamson 36:33 I wonder whether the skepticism around the legitimacy of elections is born out of this sort of sensation people have that they don't really have any, that- that they can't contribute and what they do doesn't matter, because that's- that's the most...... extreme version of it, right? Even my vote didn't matter. Even my legitimate vote didn't matter.

Jimmy Carr 36:58 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 36:58 So regardless of whether or not you think that the voting machines are hacked or whether or not it's- it's part of some big conspiracy, which it very well may be, it definitely seems like you could sort of extrapolate forward, "Oh, well, if what I do doesn't matter at all, this is a perfectly designed continuation of that narrative as well." So maybe people were- were primed to believe that a little bit more.

Jimmy Carr 37:24 Yeah. I mean, I think it's a, it's a very interesting point to kinda go, "Well, if people don't even think their vote counts, then what can you do?" But- but I guess if you're- if you're pinning your hopes for, um, self-actualization on your party getting in, it's like following a football team. It's like, it's- it's a fun thing to do, but don't- don't let it take over your life. You know, these are 11 guys that don't give a fuck about you, and they're kicking a ball around. It can't be everything. It can't be the whole of your life. Politics as well, can't be the whole of your life. You can't hope that that's gonna bring you everything. It's, you want a- you want a- a- a better world, but how are we gonna get... You know, it's a good question to ask, like, "How do we get a better world? Um, how do we- how do we bring the standard of living up? What do we actually want for the world?" 'Cause it's not just more money. I mean, you see what happens when people get more money. There's just more inflation, and sort of that hidden tax kicks in. So what do we want? We want better education, better chances for everyone, better opportunities, I guess. It's w- it's p- like, there's a lot of stuff that everyone kind of agrees on, right?

Chris Williamson 38:29 Why do you think we think about luck incorrectly?

Jimmy Carr 38:34 My thing on luck is, like, we're- we're incredibly lucky. W- there's certain things that we devalue, right? So- so, um, looks is a really good example. Like, if someone's a- a- a model, and they're- they're gorgeous, and they're photographed, lucky. People are kind of a bit dismissive of that. If someone's born really smart, you- you never hear, "Oh, you're lucky, you were born with an IQ of 162. Hmm, bit of luck." No one thinks that. We sort of... The two great myths in our society are, um, uh, uh, it's hard work and talent, aren't they? And it's always total bullshit. It's always a mix of the two, and finding the right medium, the right edge for you, the right thing to be doing. So you got b- people who think, "Oh, you know, Bill Gates, oh, he worked so hard. He used to work 18 hours a day, slept at the office. He worked so hard to build that company." No, he's incredibly bright. He had... Uh, you know, it's- it's always, you know, the talent and the hard work. You know, Michael Jordan, if he hadn't shown up to practice, would be just a guy. Um, and also, if he was living 200 years ago, pre-basketball, I don't know. I don't know. You know, that skill set is very particular. So you... What's- what's- what's- what's luck? Th- everyone's incredibly lucky. I mean, just to be here is... It's beyond, right? I don't know. I kinda, I like the idea of just going, "Okay, look, we're very lucky. We've got what we've got. Run with it." And also, you're not gonna change it. You- you mi- that thing of, like, acceptance being kind of that first step in therapy-

Chris Williamson 40:11 Mm.

Jimmy Carr 40:11 ... strikes me as really sensible. Just looking at what you've got and go, "Right, this is it. This is it for the whole journey. I can work on this." It's like nature/nurture. Obviously, nature has got a bigger effect than nurture, but nurture's the only bit anyone gives a fuck about, 'cause it's the only bit you can play with.

Chris Williamson 40:26 Yeah.

Jimmy Carr 40:27 Until I can start fiddling with my DNA sensibly, then I'm gonna be... I'll be nurturing. And nurture, people seem to think nurture stops. You know, people seem to think nurture and environment is a thing for kids-

Chris Williamson 40:40 Yeah.

Jimmy Carr 40:40 ... and the right school, but really, look at you as a shining example of environment. So you've- you put yourself in the micro and the macro in a better environment than you were in five years ago. You're not surrounded by people on Love Island. You're surrounded by these incredible intellects. And you've taken yourself out of your- where you grew up and went to university, and you've taken yourself to- to Austin because there's this kind of energy there, and there's other people that are trying to do the same thing as you, and you put yourself in that environment. That strikes me as- as incredibly kind of powerful. But the idea that, you know, if you're still hanging around with the people you hung around with 25 years ago and they're not adding value, then what are you doing?

Chris Williamson 41:18 Yeah, me and George had this idea that we're gonna write a- an essay on together. So I'm gonna try and explain it to you now. It's not fully thought out, but we'll see if we can get there. The difference between observable and hidden metrics, and how they influence our motivation. So, a lot of the time people will trade a hidden metric for an observable

Chris Williamson 41:39 metric. A good example of a hidden metric would be something like peace of mind.

Jimmy Carr 41:44 Okay.

Chris Williamson 41:45 And something like an observable metric would be money.

Jimmy Carr 41:48 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 41:48 People will happily trade something which may be more valuable ultimately for something which is less valuable simply because they can measure it more effectively.

Jimmy Carr 41:58 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 41:58 Like, time's an interesting one because-

Jimmy Carr 42:00 It's a John Lennon lyric, isn't it? "I give you everything I got for a little peace of mind."

Chris Williamson 42:05 There we go.

Jimmy Carr 42:05 But that- but that... It's a very interesting point, because that idea of going, you know, if you can't measure it, we tend to go to what's measured.

Chris Williamson 42:11 Correct.

Jimmy Carr 42:12 Uh, and so the idea of going these... And a- but actually what matters is it's, you know, emotional-

Chris Williamson 42:18 Yeah.

Jimmy Carr 42:18 ... a lot of the time.

Chris Williamson 42:18 And there's- there's no dashboard. This is why George tries to have a dashboard for all of the things that he does. He's got this end-of-day assessment type form, custom type form he's made himself that auto-populates to a Google Sheet. And at the end of-

Jimmy Carr 42:33 Of course he has.

Chris Williamson 42:33 Yeah. Uh, yeah, he's- he was born an incel but managed to ascend out of it. He has got himself to the stage where he's tracking, "What were the three things that I did today? What was my sense of presence? How connected was I? Da-da-da-da-da-da," all the way down. And his goal is to track this over time, right? To see, what are the correlations between my actions and the way that I felt? So he's trying to make the hidden observable.And the problem that we have is that things that really, really matter to us, like connection and peace of mind-

Jimmy Carr 43:03 Hm.

Chris Williamson 43:03 ... and you know, our dopamine and serotonin balance throughout the day, like, how content and fulfilled did I feel? All of these things, they're just fucking words. There's this nebulous, ephemeral, wishy-wi- It's trying to hold smoke, right?

Jimmy Carr 43:15 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 43:15 To try and work out what this is. But money, my bank account, it's a fucking good game. The number of followers I've got on social media, it's a really fucking good game. So I'll chase down the observable.

Jimmy Carr 43:28 Well, it gets back to that story of like what's the most successful story in human history? Money. Money is the greatest story ever told 'cause what even is it? Really when you break it down, it's kind of, um ... It's, it's not anything, and yet everyone believes in it. Everyone believes in that story. And, uh, what you're getting to is what's really important in life, and the stuff that maybe you can't measure is kind of what matters, right?

Chris Williamson 43:55 I wonder if there's th- this hidden observable framework that we've got here, I wonder if there's an equivalent to do with luck. So, what you were talking about is that the actual chance of us all being here, which I did for my TEDx talk, I actually looked at this, it's the same likelihood as all seven million people in Ireland rolling a trillion-sided dice and all of them coming up with the same number. It's astronomical. It's way, way, way, way, way more than all of the particles in the observable universe because your parents had to meet at that particular ovulation cycle with that particular sperm all the way back. F- Forget surviving and all of the rest of it.

Jimmy Carr 44:35 T- To pre-humanity to, yeah.

Chris Williamson 44:36 Correct, all of the way. The only way that you are here is with the exact precise combination of each different iteration that goes all the way back of how to be that sperm and had to be that day.

Jimmy Carr 44:45 I find that, I find that slightly makes my head hurt, you know, with that thing of...

Chris Williamson 44:49 (laughs)

Jimmy Carr 44:49 Sam Harris was talking about this recently, the idea that, um, maybe there's no free will. Maybe we have to be having this conversation now because when the Big Bang happened, everything rolled down like this.

Chris Williamson 44:58 This was ordained.

Jimmy Carr 45:00 Of course.

Chris Williamson 45:01 Robert Sapolsky's got a new book coming out called Determined. You know Robert Sapolsky?

Jimmy Carr 45:04 No.

Chris Williamson 45:04 Harvard's, uh, evolutionary biologist? He's coming on in month and a bit, and his new book is called Determined, and it's, uh, like how to find happiness in a life with no free will. Um, so it'll be interesting. I think one of the things that Sam failed at doing... I'm still like, uh, is it, uh, there's some people I speak to talk about like ways that free will kind of does come through and all the rest of it. But, uh, one of the things that I think Sam has, at least not instructed me, who has listened-

Jimmy Carr 45:29 Hm.

Chris Williamson 45:29 ... to a lot of him, in is tactically how do I use the information of a deterministic universe to feel more fulfilled? Given the fact that both of us are such massive fans of Agency, and everyone that's listening to this podcast will be as well, they want to feel like they, they're the architect of their own life, right?

Jimmy Carr 45:49 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 45:49 That they are actually able to make some sort of imposition on the world. It's very disempowering to find that, oh, I'm just domino number 48 million out of today's fucking bink, bink, bink, bink, bink, bink, bink, bink. It, it doesn't, uh, it doesn't make me feel very empowered. So I want, I want someone to come in and tactically tell me, if this is the case-

Jimmy Carr 46:09 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 46:10 ... how should I live?

Jimmy Carr 46:12 It's interesting that thing of like the, the timescales kind of comes up and also the idea of like what, what are we... what's important here? You sent out a thing recently about fuck you money-

Chris Williamson 46:22 Yeah.

Jimmy Carr 46:23 ... which I thought was v- uh, really interesting. The idea of like the meme of fuck you money, the idea that you could have enough that you could tell people to fuck off if that's particularly something that, you know, you wanna tell people to fuck off. In my experience, you can tell people to fuck off with no money. Good luck.

Chris Williamson 46:37 (laughs)

Jimmy Carr 46:37 But then there's, there's fuck you freedom was the next iteration, and then you've got to fuck you family. The idea that actually what really matters is having a unit. And, and family I, I would take in a broader sense of friends and family, having like a, uh, a coterie around you, your tribe if you will around you. That's really, uh, they're very interesting to me of like where you're gonna play that game, where you have agency, uh, in the world, and the idea of going, "Okay, well, there's certain players." You know, Elon Musk has got agency at a ludicrous global level, but you know, and they're global leaders. Great. But on an individual level, we all have agency. We can all, we can all be, you know... We can all make a difference.

Chris Williamson 47:24 Yeah. I, I really wish, I really wish I could give the gift of sort of higher agency to a lot of people. I think it's such a... the lack of-

Jimmy Carr 47:33 No, I think sort of the greatest gift, uh, like if you could give your child any gift, likability. Likability goes a long way.

Chris Williamson 47:41 That's Peterson's thing, "Do not let your children do anything that makes you not like them." Like a likable child. I think I was an, uh, uh, uh, fear... I may need to ask my mum, but I fear I was an incredibly unlikable child, and I think that that shaped... That was probably quite formative in a lot of my experiences with other parents, with other kids, et cetera.

Jimmy Carr 48:00 Yeah, but do you not think that... I mean, I know a little bit about your childhood and kind of what you went through as an only child and feeling slightly isolated, but is that not the thing that untethered you and allowed you to sort of fly free?

Chris Williamson 48:13 That's so true. So I, I spoke about this yesterday with Steven Bartlett that there's layers to unpacking the things that you went through and the formative experiences that you've had. So the first layer is, you know, a chip on your shoulder about whatever it is that happened to you. So for me, you know, being bullied in school, being ostracized, not feeling like I was part of a group. Then the second layer is alchemizing that into something that you really care about, so saying, "Okay, the skills that I got and the resilience that I developed from spending so much time on my own, I've turned something that was toxic into something which is valuable." Then the layer after that is, "I get to use the chip on my shoulder and the resentment for the people that came before me and that caused this problem..."... as the activation energy to now deploy this skill set. Okay, so there, now I'm not only, uh, not only have I made lead into gold, but I've now turned this gold into something that's useful. I've formed it into something that I can move forward with. But then the final one, and this is the really fucking difficult one, is to realize that if the people who tormented you are the reason that you've developed the skill sets that you care about, then you can't resent them, you should thank them. That you genuinely should look back at most of the things that you were ashamed of or guilty about or fearful of in your past and realize that that's the dark side of one of the lightest and most proud things that you've got. So overall, if the challenges that you went through formed a person that you like, those bullies in school, I should sit down with all of them and say, "Yeah, thanks, mate."

Jimmy Carr 49:56 Yeah. That's, uh, that's really interesting to listen to because when you, when you go, you know, to go through that experience, it's- it's kind of easy now. You're 35, you're a grown man and you're doing great. But to sort of think back to you are still that child.

Chris Williamson 50:11 Yeah.

Jimmy Carr 50:11 You're still that lonely kid searching for connection. But is that not the whole of the show? Like, every episode I listen to, you're sort of there kind of looking for a hug.

Chris Williamson 50:23 Yeah.

Jimmy Carr 50:23 You're- you're sort of... Your whole demeanor is, "I wanna connect with this person, I wanna know what they know, and I wanna have a friendship." And it's incredibly healthy. It just seems like it's- it's a... Uh, yeah, everything that happened, absolutely worth it. And also, ah, what are you gonna do? You can forgive them and move on or you can hold resentment. But it's- it's ultimately, that's... You know, what's- what's the important thing here? We can't measure that metric-

Chris Williamson 50:50 Yeah.

Jimmy Carr 50:50 ... of what that forgiveness gives you as to what that resentment gives you. But I would- I'd bet the house on the fact that the forgiveness is lighter and, uh, breeds more activity.

Chris Williamson 51:02 Yeah, I've been thinking recently about the idea of, um... We can't know the future and we don't fully know ourselves and we don't fully know the present, we don't fully know everybody else. So we have to concede that some huge proportion of our worldview is a delusion.

Jimmy Carr 51:19 Yeah. Isn't it... Doesn't someone talk about the three humiliations?

Chris Williamson 51:22 What's th-

Jimmy Carr 51:22 You ever heard of that?

Chris Williamson 51:23 No, what's that?

Jimmy Carr 51:24 The three humiliations of humanity. So it was Copernicus, "We're not the center of the universe," and then it was Darwin, "We- we're- we're descended from animals, we're not special." Oh, Jesus. All right. And then the third one, Freud, "Our self-conscious is running the show. We don't even know ourselves." Ah, fucking hell.

Chris Williamson 51:43 (laughs)

Jimmy Carr 51:43 Fucking hell. It's like humanity's really taken a combination.

Chris Williamson 51:47 One big hit after another.

Jimmy Carr 51:49 Yeah. Those are- those are big hits. And you go, yeah, we don't really know ourselves, but that's kind of the journey and that's the- the whole thing. I mean, that's why I think... Not to bring it all back to standup comedy, but I do think there's something magnificent about doing a bit of standup. You know, going and finding your voice and what you find funny and your sense of humor 'cause everyone's kind of got one, right?

Chris Williamson 52:10 In other news, this episode is brought to you by Nomatic. No, literally, it's actually brought to you by Nomatic. Their Carry-On Pro is the hand luggage that I used to transport my laptop and all of the stuff that I brought with me to the UK. The difference between having proper well-designed, durable, high-quality luggage and not is everything. It makes the difference between packing a complete hell or actually quite enjoyable. The team at Nomatic creates the most functional, durable, and innovative backpacks, bags, luggage, and accessories. Everything from Nomatic comes with a lifetime warranty, which is exactly how confident they are in the quality of their products. Especially if you're someone that travels quite a lot, you need to make sure the luggage you're using is high quality and Nomatic is the best that I've found. So, if you need to upgrade your luggage game for work, for travel, or for anything else, the first place to go is Nomatic. Head to the link in the description below or go to nomatic.com/modernwisdom and use the code MODERNWISDOM at checkout for 20% off everything sitewide. That's nomatic.com/modernwisdom, and MODERNWISDOM at checkout. Yeah, I, uh... So this delusion thing, people- people don't fully know themselves or the world around them or what's going to happen or all of the rest of it. Given the fact that you don't know yourself

Chris Williamson 53:25 and you're deluded in some way-

Jimmy Carr 53:28 Mm.

Chris Williamson 53:28 ... why not pick a delusion that is useful to you?

Jimmy Carr 53:31 Well, this is what NLP gets you, neuro-linguistic programming. Talks a lot about presuppositions because you can't know. You don't know it for a fact. It's kind of a, you know, a little bit of a pseudoscience. So what's useful? Rather than thinking about what's correct, what's useful? What makes a difference? If I believe I can do that, I can do that. The belief is often the thing that makes the difference.

Chris Williamson 53:54 Mm. Did I do that bit? Did I tell you about the, uh, symbolic truth but literal falsehood framework?

Jimmy Carr 54:03 No, go on.

Chris Williamson 54:03 This is fucking cool. Okay, so things can be symbolically true but literally false. Uh-

Jimmy Carr 54:10 Okay.

Chris Williamson 54:10 ... and this is most religious stories. So, the belief that porcupines can throw their quills, right? Literally untrue. A porcupine can't throw its quills.

Jimmy Carr 54:19 Right.

Chris Williamson 54:19 Like, it's not a fucking... It's not Phil-

Jimmy Carr 54:21 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 54:21 ... de Power fucking Taylor.

Jimmy Carr 54:23 Right.

Chris Williamson 54:24 Uh...

Jimmy Carr 54:24 Good luck, American listeners, with that reference.

Chris Williamson 54:26 (laughs) Phil Taylor is a l-

Jimmy Carr 54:28 He's a fat- fat knacker darts player.

Chris Williamson 54:29 (laughs) Legendary darts player from- from England.

Jimmy Carr 54:33 You say legendary, I say fat knacker. But, you know, potato, potahto.

Chris Williamson 54:36 Yeah. He can throw a- a- a sharp thing.

Jimmy Carr 54:38 So- so they can't do that, but it's-

Chris Williamson 54:39 They can't throw their quills.

Jimmy Carr 54:39 ... but it's a useful thing to believe.

Chris Williamson 54:41 Their belief... Yeah, because they're barbed and if they get in you, you're fucked. So, not good. The belief that porcupines can throw their quills is symbolically true in that it's adaptive for you to believe it. Another one would be-

Jimmy Carr 54:52 Right.

Chris Williamson 54:52 ... that pigs are uniquely dirty animals. Ever seen a cow? A cow's pretty dirty as well. So, all of the religious traditions that said we don't eat pigs because pigs are uniquely dirty animals, literally false. Figuratively...... pigs do carry a higher pathogen load, typically-

Jimmy Carr 55:09 Right.

Chris Williamson 55:09 ... than other animals in their meat. So by believing that that's the case, it's an adaptive, uh, outcome for you. Now, I- I learned this from Bret Weinstein six or seven years ago, right? Then, I've been playing with it for ages and ages to try and think of something which is literally true but figuratively false, so what's the opposite of this, right?

Jimmy Carr 55:30 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 55:30 So I was trying to think about something which is- might be accurate to know, but unadaptive to believe, and I think that free will is one of these. I think that even if we do live in a deterministic universe, even if that is literally what is true, figuratively it's an information hazard. I don't think that it really... Unless you go full, like, Sam Harris enlightenment mode and get out the other side to no one is the architect of their own decisions, therefore empathy and forgiveness are much easier to come by, which I don't think, like, practically is- is that easy for most people to do. I- I don't think that that... The- the same as the behavioral genetics red pill. If you believe that almost, more than 50% of what you are psychologically is locked in and you only get to play with this tiny little sort of cake dressing on the top of it, how many cherries do I wanna put on top of this cake-

Jimmy Carr 56:22 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 56:22 ... it doesn't feel... I- i- it's not very supportive in terms of how you show up in the world, even if it's true. So that's something that might be literally true but figuratively false, and the porcupine throwing their quills the other way.

Jimmy Carr 56:33 I mean, I certainly think it's a very interesting area to still talk about 'cause it's about... Belief makes such a huge difference. If you believe in something, you can kinda... You d- it gives you the kind of the will to do it, to give it a go-

Chris Williamson 56:44 Mm-hmm.

Jimmy Carr 56:46 ... about what you think is possible. What are your dreams gonna be? I mean, th- when you started this podcast, presumably you didn't think-

Chris Williamson 56:52 (laughs)

Jimmy Carr 56:53 ... "I'll be in Austin, Texas talking to the great and the good and trying to figure things out."

Chris Williamson 56:58 Yeah.

Jimmy Carr 56:58 It's like that's why I think the book thing is really interesting for you now of, like, trying to rather than just, uh, other level of, okay, trying to figure this thing out and it's kind of interesting to chat about, it's like putting down these thoughts and going, you know, does it, does it grow corn? What- what are the bits of wisdom that are most affected how you live day to day? That's why I think that the next 24 hours is really interesting-

Chris Williamson 57:19 Yeah.

Jimmy Carr 57:19 ... of like what could you do that adds value to you tomorrow?

Chris Williamson 57:23 Such a lovely frame. Such a lovely frame. You- you talk about, uh, disposition being more important than position.

Jimmy Carr 57:30 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 57:31 What do you mean by that?

Jimmy Carr 57:32 Well, listen, I know some billionaires that are pretty miserable, and I know some guys with, uh, boring office jobs that are very happy. I think your disposition is... It's very difficult to change, but it's often easier than changing the world. You know, y- y- you are, you're in your head on your own an awful lot of the time. No matter how connected you are, no matter how great your family, you're- you- you are you. And, you know, the acceptance of that and the way that you see the world, the rose-tinted glasses of looking at the world looking for jokes is pretty tremendous. I think the thing that makes a difference to people on disposition is, um, i- in the most part, it's gratitude can kinda move the dial. That's the thing that seems to make a difference 'cause it's that thing of, like, if you're- if you're in a bad mood all the time, you're not in a bad mood, you're an asshole. It's the truth of it. So it's go- how are you most of the time? The how you treat a waiter or a waitress, or how you react when you get a speeding ticket, or any of those little things that... 'Cause life is gonna throw lots of that stuff at you. How do you react to it? H- how- how are you in the world? What's your d- is it a sunny disposition, or are you kind of, you know, are you- are you- are you boring?

Chris Williamson 58:43 Well, you've been through bouts of depression, uh, as- as I have. I- I actually thought throughout all of my 20s that I was depressed. I thought that that was the texture of my mind. I thought it was locked in, like the worst weed trip that you've ever had. This is me for the rest of my life.

Jimmy Carr 58:56 But it's... Okay, so I'm interested in conflated words.

Chris Williamson 58:58 Mm-hmm.

Jimmy Carr 58:59 And often think depression is conflated with sadness.

Chris Williamson 59:02 Hmm.

Jimmy Carr 59:02 And sadness is much more, um, difficult to admit, and it's much more, uh, there's more of a stigma-

Chris Williamson 59:09 Hmm.

Jimmy Carr 59:09 ... around "Oh, I'm depressed." It's ki- there's a cer- certain glamour to being depressed.

Chris Williamson 59:13 Yeah. It's aloof. It's sort of this mysterious thing. It's pathologized.

Jimmy Carr 59:16 It- i- it suggests depth.

Chris Williamson 59:17 Yeah.

Jimmy Carr 59:18 Whereas sadness is just, "Oh, you sad fuck. You're sad. What do you do? You've got a surface level life, uh, you run clubs, I'm sure you're having a nice time."

Chris Williamson 59:27 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Jimmy Carr 59:28 Uh, whatever.

Chris Williamson 59:28 Yeah.

Jimmy Carr 59:29 But it's- it's surface level. So that depression was maybe sadness. But I think if it's environmental, if you could change it, if it's not due to the serotonin levels in your head and the chemical imbalance, then it's- i- if you can do something about it, it's sadness.

Chris Williamson 59:42 Hmm.

Jimmy Carr 59:42 So assuming it's sadness and that you can do something about it. I mean, there's people with real mental health problems and my heart goes out to them, but for a lot of people, it's just there, it's circumstantial.

Chris Williamson 59:53 You went through periods of acute sadness or depression-

Jimmy Carr 59:56 Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Chris Williamson 59:57 ... how- however you want to label it.

Jimmy Carr 59:59 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:00:00 And yet you've managed to get yourself to a stage largely-

Jimmy Carr 1:00:04 Well, anxiety has been the big... Is really my, um, f-

Chris Williamson 1:00:08 Drug of choice. (laughs)

Jimmy Carr 1:00:09 Yeah. And anxiety, I think, Scott, I think there's a gift in there. I think the gratitude that I have for anxiety is it's the flip side of creativity.

Chris Williamson 1:00:16 Correct.

Jimmy Carr 1:00:16 Th- that your mind is racing and sometimes you're trying to solve a- a problem in the future because you don't have anything to do now. It's why people talk about, you know, "I'm so happy when I exercise," because you're giving yourself a problem right now and your mind is dealing with whatever, lifting that up and putting it down.

Chris Williamson 1:00:32 Yeah, you put 120 kilos on a- on a bar, you're not thinking about much else other than, "I really need to get this off me."

Jimmy Carr 1:00:38 Yeah. Th- th- that- that thing of, like, that simple thing of going you probably don't have enough to do if you're anxious about silly things in the future or the, um... I mean, I'm- I'm- I get very tied up with counterfactuals and wondering about what might have been and what should I have done.

Chris Williamson 1:00:56 Hmm.

Jimmy Carr 1:00:58 And, you know, it- it- it kinda links to me to that weird thing of, like, no one's scared of falling off a cliff, worried about jumping.There's a- there's a- there's kind of a weird thing of going, "Well, what if I'd done something different? What if I'd, like-"

Chris Williamson 1:01:12 I can tell you that, that you've heard that Douglas Murray thing about, "In life, we must choose our regrets," right?

Jimmy Carr 1:01:18 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:01:18 Yeah.

Jimmy Carr 1:01:18 I mean, you can have anything, you can't have everything.

Chris Williamson 1:01:21 Yeah. Yeah, that, uh, what could've been, we can't split test life, we can't go back-

Jimmy Carr 1:01:27 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:01:28 ... and give this another crack.

Jimmy Carr 1:01:29 I tell you, for a guy with a sunny disposition, it's a very serious conversation, isn't it?

Chris Williamson 1:01:32 Yeah.

Jimmy Carr 1:01:33 I quite like this. I feel this is very... I feel, like, in the moment to call it, it feels very revealing to have this conversation 'cause it doesn't feel unlike the conversation we had at dinner the other day-

Chris Williamson 1:01:42 Mm-hmm.

Jimmy Carr 1:01:42 ... but it is that thing if you go, it's kinda showing more of yourself than you, you know, normally it's just dick jokes.

Chris Williamson 1:01:48 Wait until people see you haven't got pants on underneath there.

Jimmy Carr 1:01:50 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:01:51 Uh-

Jimmy Carr 1:01:52 Cut to the wide.

Chris Williamson 1:01:54 (laughs) Yeah. It needs to be very wide.

Jimmy Carr 1:01:57 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:01:57 Um, yeah, I- I- so I'm interested in this, if anxiety is your malady, your mental malady of choice-

Jimmy Carr 1:02:06 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:02:06 ... and yet you've managed to get yourself to a state where you are in a sunny disposition, at least some nonzero amount of the time.

Jimmy Carr 1:02:15 Well, yeah, sorry, just to go back to-

Chris Williamson 1:02:17 Yeah.

Jimmy Carr 1:02:17 ... because I'm still thinking about disposition position-

Chris Williamson 1:02:19 Mm-hmm.

Jimmy Carr 1:02:20 ... because people climb to a position, and they think happiness is gonna live there, and I think you'd be better served trying to make yourself happy and then worrying about where you're going. Think your happiness, your emotional wellbeing, working on that first seems to be a very sensible thing because it doesn't live down the road. It doesn't li- you know, you put a million dollars in the bank, it won't, it won't make you less insecure. That kind of scarcity mindset is kind of poison.

Chris Williamson 1:02:53 Is that a lesson that can be learned without going and seeing the top of the mountain yourself? Because there will be a lot of people that could say, "Jimmy, easy for you to say about-"

Jimmy Carr 1:03:03 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:03:03 "... fame isn't gonna fix your problems. Money isn't gonna fix your problems. You've achieved both."

Jimmy Carr 1:03:07 Well, fame, fame, I think, has replaced heaven in a secular world. Fame is the land of milk and honey, where everything is okay, and you're looked after, and it's perfect. Un- I'm not knocking it, I love being famous, but it's not the be all and end all. And actually, again, you can, you can kinda split test that 'cause I can go to a country where I'm not known, not many, but there's a few.

Chris Williamson 1:03:35 You talk about why trajectory is so important as well, and I think that this ties-

Jimmy Carr 1:03:39 I think it's-

Chris Williamson 1:03:39 ... in here.

Jimmy Carr 1:03:40 ... it's all people see, isn't it? Like people aren't interested in how, you know, if you're playing 250 shows a year, like, I've been doing that for years. It's not exciting. It's not news. It's news when people arrive and they're new. So, when something, you know, i- in, I think film and TV and comedy and kind of entertainment, it's- it's like, it's all about where were they last year, where are they this year?

Chris Williamson 1:04:03 Yeah.

Jimmy Carr 1:04:03 Just maintaining, no one seems to care. Although comics aren't entertainers in the true sense. The true definition of an entertainer is, if you don't like me, I don't like me.

Chris Williamson 1:04:17 Oh, that's interesting. You've outs-

Jimmy Carr 1:04:18 That's a real entertainer. Now-

Chris Williamson 1:04:20 ... you've outsourced your self-worth to the crowd.

Jimmy Carr 1:04:22 Of course, that's what an entertainer is, and there's, I know guys that are entertainers, a friend said that to me, and I was like, "Oh, man, that is, that is your journey, good luck." That's hard. Comedians desperately wanna be loved, but entirely on their own terms. It's a lovely paradox.

Chris Williamson 1:04:36 Do you see that in yourself? Uh, what- what- what's the- the lesson here between the desire to make people happy and laugh and being this, uh, how would you say, like, intrinsic drug dealer-

Jimmy Carr 1:04:52 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:04:53 ... and the fact that you need to be able to go home at night and put your head on the pillow without having, you know, if- if your self-worth is inflated by the crowd, then it can be deflated by the criticism?

Jimmy Carr 1:05:09 Yeah, I mean, listen, that's the if- if something- if something out there makes you happy, losing it's gonna make you sad. So, it- it matters. I think putting on a good show, though, is about going, do I think it's funny? You know, there's certain things that I write, and I go, ah, it feels a bit, doesn't feel quite, hasn't got a- a great structure to it. It's not quite the right sort of joke for me. I'm gonna leave it. It's- it's not great. And then there's stuff that I like more than the crowd, and it's finding a balance, where you go, "Look, I know what you paid to see. I know why you're here, and"" the, you know, "the world ordered a stand-up comedian, and I'm gonna honor that. I'm gonna be as good at this as I can be." And, you know, it- it's kind of a- a mediation, but it's very much on my terms, in term, "These are the jokes that I tell."

Chris Williamson 1:05:56 We spoke about that trajectory thing over dinner, and it- it's really interesting because Andrew Tate, someone you might not have thought wisdom from this area of the world would've- would've applied, but he says, "Having things isn't fun. Getting things is fun." And it-

Jimmy Carr 1:06:14 Well, a stopped- a stopped clock is right twice a day.

Chris Williamson 1:06:17 (laughs)

Jimmy Carr 1:06:19 He's- I mean, he says a lot of things, he's bound to get some stuff right. It's kind of an interesting cultural phenomenon because I think the, um-

Chris Williamson 1:06:24 What do you think happened with- with Tate? Did- have you done a postmortem on his ascendancy to fame?

Jimmy Carr 1:06:29 No, I mean, uh, uh, the only thing I would say is that- that, you know, young

Jimmy Carr 1:06:32 men, I feel, are in crisis, and, uh, not that young women aren't in crisis. They are as well, I mean, young people generally, but it feels like young men are having a- a silent crisis. You know, we- we talk about certain things, and we don't talk about, um, other things, and, you know, young men committing suicide seems to be a, it's a- a huge problem at the moment, and a lack of purpose and agency is a huge... You know, why are video games so popular? You know, especially with young men, and it's a, um, a facsimile of career and purpose and drive and different levels, and there's something in us-... does it not that men and women are so very different. I always think, like, the big difference gender-wise is men are all taking a performance-enhancing drug every single day, and that drug is testosterone. And really, if you had to talk about what testosterone does for men, it's risk-taking. So when we talk a lot about all the CEOs, all the big CEOs are men and it's very unfair, also prisons are full of men because men take ludicrous risks. So I think if you were gonna life hack for ... I mean, I've got a daughter, and the advice I, I give her is, "Take more risks." I- and you can, because you're making a conscious decision, it's not a hormonal decision-

Chris Williamson 1:07:51 Mm.

Jimmy Carr 1:07:52 ... then maybe you can actually do better because you cannot do the dumb shit. You don't need to jump from the high board.

Chris Williamson 1:07:58 Mm.

Jimmy Carr 1:07:58 But you can move to a city where there's more opportunities. Taking those risks that- that, you know, the average man takes. Like, I kinda look back and it seems so easy that I left my job and became a comic, because I did it. The idea that that was preordained was s- so fucking stupid, such a ludicrous mid-20s Hail Mary catch of a, "Ugh, this life's boring, I'm gonna go and do something more fun."

Chris Williamson 1:08:32 Mm.

Jimmy Carr 1:08:32 Crazy. Um, so I think that's it. It's kind of, that's kind of an interesting point of going the, um, how do we, how do we make things more equal between men and women in our society? And I think encouraging greater risk in young women is, is a really sensible hack, 'cause that's what, that's what guys have got. They're- they're taking crazy chances.

Chris Williamson 1:08:54 Well-

Jimmy Carr 1:08:54 You, you, you leaving ... You had a very comfortable life and a good living and a good career, and you traded it in for madness, for like, "Oh, well, I'm just gonna be, you know, an, uh, is autodidact," you know? It's like you're self-educated. You seem to be ... You should have this kind of thirst for knowledge, and you're going, "Yeah, well, I'll, maybe I'll just do that," just doing the thing that you love.

Chris Williamson 1:09:17 It's one of the reasons why I had such a problem with the term "It was meant to be." So the reason that I hate this post hoc rationalization of how a bad situation became a good situation because it was meant to be in the end, it completely removes all of the agency that you had over turning that shit situation into something that was good. Let's say that you-

Jimmy Carr 1:09:44 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:09:45 ... lose a leg in a car crash and you're in a hospital bed, and while you're there you begin watching history YouTube videos about ancient Rome, and you realize that you're really interested in it. And 10 years later you are now the biggest ancient Rome historian presenting shows for your own channel. Maybe you're on the BBC. You've written books. You're a best seller. You've got only got one leg, but doesn't matter. Saying, "It was meant to be. I got in that car crash for a reason so that I would spend enough time in a hospital bed, so that I would find the videos about the Roman Empire, so that I could have this career," ultimately nets out at taking away all of the alchemy that you had-

Jimmy Carr 1:10:31 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:10:31 ... that turned this ... Hang on. Let- let's do it in a reverse way. You had, you got dealt a really unfortunate card and managed to ... There we go. That's blackjack.

Jimmy Carr 1:10:42 But the, the cards you got dealt are the cards you got dealt. I really like that thing of like, uh, at some point you gotta go with what you got or you're not gonna go. So you just, you do what you need to do. And like, it's interesting now the, uh, like the, the educational bit of this, the idea that you're going, look, it's- it's, uh, y- you're educating yourself now. To what end? To what purpose? Well, you're making it easier for, for other people down the line. And I'm working on a thing at the moment where I'm trying to write a, um, a language for comedy. I'm trying to write-

Chris Williamson 1:11:15 I'm excited for this.

Jimmy Carr 1:11:16 Trying to write a comedy course, a book. I- I'm not quite sure what it's gonna be, but the idea of going I think there's too much mysticism about writing jokes. I think even professionals, even some of the goats, uh, they kinda write it on stage and they embody a, um, a part of their persona on stage, and they can conjure up these funny things, and- and there's alchemy.

Chris Williamson 1:11:39 Mm.

Jimmy Carr 1:11:39 And I go, "Yeah, maybe," but actually you can break it down. You can break down what you're doing there and, and it can be taught. The idea that it can't be taught is to me so incredibly limiting. The idea that comedy can't be taught is like, it's like going, "Well, music can't be taught, of course, 'cause great musicians are great musicians."

Chris Williamson 1:11:56 Are you saying that, are you saying that the comedy industry has a disproportionate number of narcissists in it, Jimmy? That would be a surprise.

Jimmy Carr 1:12:02 How dare you. Um, yeah. I- no, I've got a good line on narcissism. I think I've got a couple of narcissists in my life, so my line is, "A narcissist, they've got the disease and you've got the symptoms."

Chris Williamson 1:12:14 (laughs)

Jimmy Carr 1:12:16 Pretty much sort of sums it up, doesn't it? Hey, it's- it's an issue. If you've got one in your life, you know about it. Um, yeah, I think it's really interesting that thing of going if it was like music, more like music-

Chris Williamson 1:12:26 Mm.

Jimmy Carr 1:12:27 ... and people could sort of discover themselves, because really what are the teenage years about? You- you ... It's uncomfortable being a teenager. It's uncomfortable like ... And- and the, and we're all, you know, growing. It doesn't s- really stop. But that idea of going, "Well, who am I?" If you're the person you were 10 years ago, then you fucked up if there's no growth in it, i- i- if you haven't progressed. But it's constantly asking yourselves kind of the, the right questions-

Chris Williamson 1:12:51 (laughs)

Jimmy Carr 1:12:52 ... and, and, and finding a bit of humor in that is just makes, it just makes the, the journey a little bit easier, doesn't it?

Chris Williamson 1:12:58 Talking about that trajectory and how it's important to think about where you're going and other people respond to the rising or falling of your stock in kind, there's an argu-

Jimmy Carr 1:13:12 But, but that's, that's character versus reputation. So character is what you know about yourself.If you have a crisis and you're getting canceled, um, your reputation is in the toilet.

Chris Williamson 1:13:23 Mm-hmm.

Jimmy Carr 1:13:23 But you still know who you are. You- you know, you still... You- you know who you are and it's that- The fundamental question when you're in the middle of a cancellation crisis is, "Who are you?" "Oh, my name is Jimmy, I'm a stand-up comedian,