Modern Wisdom"All Self-Help Boils Down To One Truth" - Jimmy Carr (4K)
EVERY SPOKEN WORD
150 min read · 30,149 words- 0:00 – 10:57
Ask Yourself ‘What Do You Want?’
- CWChris Williamson
Jimmy Carr, welcome to the show.
- JCJimmy Carr
Thank you very much. I'm a, I'm a big fan of it. I'm kind of nervous about talking to you, in a weird way, because I like the show. I, I really like you as a kind of cultural, um, entity. I think it's a really interesting kinda journey you've had. And I get so much from this show. You know that phrase, I think you use it probably more than any other phrase, "Does it grow corn?" And for me, this show really kinda grows corn. There's so many little things that I've taken from this, that I've kind of gone, "Oh, I'm gonna, I'm gonna do that. I'm gonna do something with that." So kind of the, the practical application of the wisdom, what you get out of people seems to be, um, very easy to integrate into life.
- CWChris Williamson
Right, so the bar's been set high for you today then, if you start-
- JCJimmy Carr
Yeah, I better-
- CWChris Williamson
... dicking around.
- JCJimmy Carr
Well, I mean, dicking around is sort of what I do. So the other thing is like, I, I kinda get more nervous being myself than being sort of the comedic, um, persona. The, you know, just being funny.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- JCJimmy Carr
Just being on things, being funny, I find very easy. It's a, it's an interesting sort of life lesson, the idea of like, what do you find easy that other people find difficult? Go for that. Do that for a living. That's, that's ... there's, there's gonna be money there, there's gonna be (laughs) , there's gonna be some gold. You're gonna be okay. If you find it easy and everyone else is going, "That's impossible," so you're standing up in front of people being funny, I find very easy. Like, these kind of conversations, I slightly, you slightly second-guess yourself.
- CWChris Williamson
It's what you're used to, I think. It's what you spend a lot of time becoming acclimatized to doing.
- JCJimmy Carr
Yeah, I suppose. Uh, you know, it's just that thing of, I've always said in comedy, people sort of talk about how many years they've been doing comedy, and it seems faintly ridiculous. It's kind of, it's like when you talk to an airline pilot, they've got a really good view on it, they talk about how many hours they've got in the sky. And for me, like, there's no substitute for, um, stage time. And I'm sure for you, there's no substitute for, for this, for actually doing it. Everything else is, is kind of, uh, uh, doesn't matter how many years you've had a podcast. I think something about the frequency of your show as well.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- JCJimmy Carr
It's the, it's kind of, it's always there. There's always something new.
- CWChris Williamson
You talk about the most important question to ask yourself being, what do you want?
- JCJimmy Carr
Yeah, I mean, I talk about that an awful lot. I, I studied a lot of, uh, studied and was very interested in sort of NLP, and that question of what do you want, in the micro, in the macro, being, um, being the absolute key in sort of life. Because people sort of, um, I suppose it's, it's, it's that thing of going, what does something represent? Peop- someone might say, "Well, I want a Ferrari." Um, but why? If you, if you sort of dig a little deeper, you can't just ask once, "What do you want?" "Well, I want a Ferrari and a Rolex and all of the trappings," but actually what they want is status. So it's kind of asking yourself, what game are you gonna play?
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- JCJimmy Carr
I've read a lot of that, um, uh, Rene Girard, uh, stuff about sort of memetic desires. So this idea that you've got what you really want, at kind of a, a fundamental level, it's about you and what you perceive you should have compared to others. So this idea of kinda being honest about what you want and why you want it.
- CWChris Williamson
Well, splitting apart what is a genuine desire that's come from you, that's been self-authored, and what is just the things that you've taken from the way you dealt with past trauma and what your parents valued and what society says that you should, and the paths of least resistance and your genetic predisposition, this beautiful quote that says, "Ultimately, happiness comes down to choosing between the discomfort of becoming aware of our mental afflictions and the discomfort of becoming ruled by them." And it's this-
- JCJimmy Carr
Oh, yeah, that's, it's a lot though, isn't it? I mean, it's like, I don't think anyone gets there-
- CWChris Williamson
No.
- JCJimmy Carr
... by the way. I think there's, there's kind, there's slightly ... I think sometimes when I hear people kind of interview talking about this stuff, there's a, there's a sense of, "Oh, well, you know, I'm enlightened now, and I know," knowing that you, you know, you d- um, "I only want that thing because you've got that thing, and I want the new iPhone 'cause you've gotten the new iPhone." Uh, knowing that doesn't really make any difference, because when you're out there in the world, you still gotta live a life and do something.
- CWChris Williamson
Correct.
- JCJimmy Carr
But it's about what, uh, that Will Storr book I thought was phenomenal, um, The Status Game. I mean, all these books are great actually. He's a really interesting-
- CWChris Williamson
He's a-
- JCJimmy Carr
... sort of underrated writer.
- CWChris Williamson
... outstanding writer.
- JCJimmy Carr
He's wonderful. But that thing of like going, well, actually you pick what status game you play in. You can have anything. You can't have everything. It's that thing of, just the, the words seem to be very important to me, the idea of saying, um, you can work for anything in life, to a kid, as opposed to you can have anything. Is the difference between, um, you know, ambition and entitlement, in, you know, summed up.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- JCJimmy Carr
It was that lovely thing you sent out the other day.
- CWChris Williamson
Yes.
- JCJimmy Carr
Uh, that, you know, that, the difference between ambition and, um, entitlement being, you know, seeing what you-
- 10:57 – 16:15
The Intense Schedule of a Popular Comedian
- CWChris Williamson
wonder, talking about the skill acquisition thing, obviously the pace that you tour at, how many shows have you done this year so far?
- JCJimmy Carr
220, something like that.
- CWChris Williamson
And there's probably been about 250 to 280 days so far this year?
- JCJimmy Carr
Yeah, something like that. But I make TV shows as well, so, you know, I keep busy.
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- JCJimmy Carr
But it's, uh, you know, but really, if you compare it to someone with a real job-
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- JCJimmy Carr
... it's not that much work because the way that I perceive it is I work for, you know, two hours or four hours a night depending on how many shows.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- JCJimmy Carr
And, uh, yeah, most people work eight hours.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- JCJimmy Carr
Now, there's a bit of travel involved and stuff, but it's, it's, it's a pleasure. If you find something you love doing, you never work again. That's the adage.
- CWChris Williamson
Well, I suppose if you look at that's such a good frame to say, wow, 250 days of the year or 220 days of the year, and there's only been 280 days or whatever. Okay, well, if you were to roll that forward for any normal nine-to-five person, that's, that's probably the right number of days, or maybe even a little bit less. And there's something about taking a working class spit-and-sawdust mentality into the realm where it, it doesn't seem like it's, it's supposed to be there, but you actually end up seeing disproportionate returns.
- JCJimmy Carr
Yeah, I suppose it's that thing of, like, it's, uh...... it's really about what you're willing to put in as well. Like, if you find something that you love doing, well, why would you wanna stop doing that? Just do, do more of that. And you get better. It is that thing where you go, "It's time in the gym." It seems that stress is very good for us, in, in all areas. You know, going to the gym is stressing your body, and working and coming up with new stuff is, you know, you're, you're stressing yourself. You know, so that thing of, like, trying to, you know, trying new stuff at every show. You... It's only a... You know, you saw the show the other night, it's only a five-minute bit where I get out a bit of paper and try some new jokes.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- JCJimmy Carr
But that bit means that the next tour is very easy, because five minutes at every show...
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- JCJimmy Carr
You, you sort of bank a lot of stuff, bank a lot of new ideas, and you have a reason to think about the new thing always.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- JCJimmy Carr
You have a reason to be thinking about, "Okay, what's the new thing? What's the new thing? And what's a new idea for a joke? What am I gonna try tonight?"
- CWChris Williamson
Well, that's a big hack, I think. You know, it's the Feynman technique. "In order to be able to learn it, you must first be able to teach it," type thing. But there's an equivalent when it comes to personal growth as well, I think, which is the best way to ensure that you're going to continue to develop is to have an outlet where it's going to be scrutinized by other people. Like, so much of the learning and the reading and the stuff that I do is exclusively because I know that I need to be remotely interesting or prepared for the next guest-
- JCJimmy Carr
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... that comes on.
- JCJimmy Carr
Well, it's that, it is that thing where you go, the joy of stand-up comedy, the feedback loop is-
- CWChris Williamson
Immediately. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- JCJimmy Carr
... it's so quick. I mean, people just immediately... And, and an audience, you know, Lenny Bruce first said it, the audience is a genius. They know immediately, "That's funny. That's not funny. That's acceptable. That's not acceptable." They make the call on all that stuff. So you're just, like, presenting stuff and going, "Is that okay? Is that all right?" I mean, you know, it's, it's really easy because you just, you write... I've written so many more jokes that don't work than you. So many more. Like, thousands more.
- CWChris Williamson
It's that Edison thing about, "I haven't failed, I've just found 10,000 ways that I wasn't successful."
- JCJimmy Carr
Yeah, and you, but you eventually get to it, and then you go... Well, you know, what's, what's the stand-up comedian kind of superpower? It's an hour. Maybe 90 minutes if you go and see a live show, 'cause there's a bit of stuff as well. But the, you know, putting together specials, and you go, "Right, it's, it's, that's kind of the best of me over the last 18 months. That's all the funny stuff I, I said in the last 18 months, and that's there for you." Just... I think it's more relevant than music. I think music's incredibly important and should be taught more in schools. But I think stand-up should be a course in schools. If you think about what it's about, it's about verbal dexterity, right? And it's about being able to express yourself, and it's about finding your voice and expressing who you are. And it's a perspective on life where you're seeing the lighter side and trying to find fun in something. The, you know, there's two stories. You know, one story's about a guy, um, uh, shitting himself on a train, and it's just a, it's like, "Ah, I had the worst day ever." And then there's some perspective where you go, "That's the funniest story I've ever heard." There- there's, there's something about the ability of a comedian to kind of shift perspectives. And for me, comedy has a function in society that no one is calling, which is, it's the, "We're pushing the Overton window." We, we're always at the edge of what is and what isn't acceptable. Like, no, I'm not just talking about like, "I happen to tell edgy jokes." That's not what this is. It's, "I'm seeing things as they are, but kind of with new eyes." That's sort of what comics do. Even the most kind of mainstream observational comedy, if done well, you're sort of questioning the reality. You're saying, "Well, this is, this is, uh, this is not normal. This is not how things should be. This is weird. Am I the only one thinking this? Is it just me?" That kind of trope of comedy. And it pushes what we, what we think about the world. It pushes what's acceptable.
- CWChris Williamson
You s-
- JCJimmy Carr
It's progressive.
- 16:15 – 25:14
Are Comedians Ahead of the Curve on Society’s Issues?
- JCJimmy Carr
the sort of testing the air of what you can say. And, you know, politics lags behind.
- CWChris Williamson
And so does culture. You know, if you want to know what are going to be the biggest talking points amongst normal people in about 18 months' time, look at the jokes that comedians are making today.
- JCJimmy Carr
Well, I think there's a, there's a, there's a argument to be said that comedy lives in sort of a space between public and private discourse. And it strikes me that there's never been a wider gap between public and private discourse. What people are saying in bars and homes and on social media to their friends, um, and what the party line... You know, you sort of, the party line's pretty strong at the moment on what you can and what you can't say. You know, if you wanna see where power really lives, what can't you say? It's interesting, right? What can't you say in a society? What isn't acceptable in the world? And you get into very interesting topics. I mean, all the stuff you talk about on Modern Wisdom falls into that sort of category of going, "Well, should we talk about this?" You know, when you talk about, you know, whether it's environmentalism or gender or, you know, what's, what's happening in the world, it's very, it's very interesting to kind of call that and to, to mess around with it. So it's actually, it's k- it's kind of a great space. And comedy, it sugars the pill as well. You, you know, it's, it's almost the perfect drug for me, stand-up comedy, because it's the dopamine hit if you don't quite know where the line is gonna come-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- JCJimmy Carr
... and it's the serotonin pleasure of laughter. And going out to a live show has that incredible sort of effect on people of... It- it- it's a physical response. I'm, you know, I've said it before, I, I think of myself as a drug dealer, but you have the drugs on you.
- CWChris Williamson
That's so nice.
- JCJimmy Carr
You know, you've, you've got everything on you, but I'm able to sort of tease it out so I can get across borders with no problem.
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- JCJimmy Carr
It's interesting, isn't it? It's like the best drug in the world.
- CWChris Williamson
That's great.
- JCJimmy Carr
What's the best drug in the world?
- CWChris Williamson
I wonder-
- JCJimmy Carr
Dopamine.
- CWChris Williamson
I would love to know what the hormonal cascade of someone listening to a great podcast is feeling.I'm gonna guess that there would be a good chunk of serotonin and maybe some dopamine from, "I've realized something," or, "Here's two ideas that I didn't see before, and they've been tied together and they've been wrapped up in a bow, and ooh."
- JCJimmy Carr
What's interesting, the- the dopamine thing, the thing that we were discussing the other day that I found very interesting was, like, the idea that you could go, if you had one data point on someone, uh, their view on abortion, let's say. What else could you... what else could you figure out from that?
- CWChris Williamson
Correct.
- JCJimmy Carr
You know? So the- the modern day... I suppose it would be modern day cold reading, right?
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- JCJimmy Carr
So if, you know, old school cold reading was, you know, someone at a seance going, "Has anyone lost a Mary-"
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- JCJimmy Carr
"... in Catholic Ireland?" I mean, fucking throw a stone.
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- JCJimmy Carr
But the idea, this kind of modern day cold reading on, "What do you... what do you think about Brexit?" Someone tells you and you go, "I know everything that I need to know about you-"
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- JCJimmy Carr
"... from that one data point." So it's... with podcasts, it's un- uh, it... The thing is, it's about the dopamine of going, "When does someone surprise you with their view?"
- CWChris Williamson
Dude, I- I... So after our conversation, we went for dinner on Thursday, and then I wrote my newsletter based off of the inspiration from that. Such a good way to judge whether or not the content creator that you are listening to is acting genuinely and taking their insights from what they truly are interested in, and being honest, is when was the last time that they surprised you with something that they said?
- JCJimmy Carr
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Because-
- JCJimmy Carr
Oh, the ho- the honesty is really interesting 'cause, uh, uh, it's- it's weird being a comic 'cause everything I say on stage is a lie. Ultimately, jokes are little lies. But comics leak. There's a weird thing, you can watch someone on stage or watch, you know, your favorite comic or whatever, and you kind of have a sense of who they are. It just- it just happens. You don't really choose your style as a comic, it kind of chooses you. It's kind of... it's who you are. It's really... it's kind of an interesting thing. I think that-
- CWChris Williamson
It's a caricature of the self.
- 25:14 – 33:40
Our Obsession With Ourselves & Individualism
- CWChris Williamson
- JCJimmy Carr
Well, I think that's, you know, that's the, yeah, it's, it strikes me that it's, uh, if you, if you look at different communities around the world, you can sort of see where, there's certain communities where the self is, uh, is sacrosanct, and there's other places where not so much, uh, you know, it's much more tribal. Let me say, it's kind of an interesting thought, my favorite quote of all time is William Gibson, "The future is here, but it's not evenly distributed." And you think, "Uh, wow," like, yeah, of course.
- CWChris Williamson
What does that mean to you?
- JCJimmy Carr
Well, it means that there's a utopia in the world. I'm, I'm a very positive person. I mean, I really do think the world is great and we're gonna crack it. I think we may have already solved most of the problems in the world, but in, in, in just particular areas, right? So the, y- y- you know, so you go to Portugal, let's say, go to Lisbon now, and the drug laws changed 15 years ago. They legalized all drugs, said, "All drugs are legal, and we're gonna take all the money we were spending on fighting, uh, the war on drugs, which we're just patently losing, we're gonna take all that money and we're gonna spend it on rehabs and we're gonna spend it on education and we're gonna spend it on, uh, making it easier for people to make good choices." Great. And it worked. You walk around Lisbon now, one of the safest cities in Europe, it's magnificent, it's bug- buzzing. It's, it's fabulous. And you go, "That's, that's a brilliant idea. W- why don't we just take that and do that here?" It seems to work 'cause, y- you know, the alternative, and people sort of go, "Yeah, but, you know, drugs aren't good and drugs..." I agree, I don't do drugs, it's not my thing. And some people have got real issues around them, but you go, "But what we're doing at the moment isn't working, and that seems to work." And then you'll always have a very small percentage of people that have, you know, real problems, and that's fine. But the, at least if you know those people aren't criminalized, then they don't... Most petty crime is drug-related. So you, that's a problem, that's been fixed, we could just take that. I think the energy crisis has been solved, but only on nuclear submarines. Nuclear submarines strike me as that's there. Why, why is no one talking about these? People are living in tubes with a nuclear reactor, and they have been for 50 years. We've tested it, and those guys seem fine.
- CWChris Williamson
Self-sustaining, much worse environment than we've got up here where we can breathe water and we don't need to recirculate the carbon dioxide.
- JCJimmy Carr
But... And it's working, right? There you go. There's the... I mean, I'm abs- I'm with Extinction Rebellion. I think there is an environmental crisis.
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- JCJimmy Carr
It's awful. But I don't think the person that solves the problem is, I don't think we say in 50 years time, "Oh, we came pretty close there to an environmental collapse, but thankfully, someone glued themselves to the top of a car."
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- JCJimmy Carr
(Puffs) "That did it." I think it's gonna be a physicist that does it, right? It's gonna be a scientist that has a wonderful idea and, and, and does something. So it's that thing if you go, w- if you care about that, where should you be putting your energy? And I think it's, again, it comes back to where's the agency? So that, you know, gluing yourself to the top of a car is, is great. It's saying, "Look, I need, th- it's som- this is important. Something needs to be done." I don't think any politician has the vision to do it. I don't think it gets solved through a law. I think it gets solved through science and technology. And I read, um, uh, David Deutsch's, uh, The Beginning of Infinity, and I was just blown away by what if we're the first 100 billion people? That's how many people have lived, right? Hundred... Yeah, 100 billion.
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- JCJimmy Carr
Um, I'm including us in that.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- JCJimmy Carr
And it could be trillions in the future-
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- JCJimmy Carr
... if we g- if we get this right. It's k- it's exciting, right? And the idea that science is this particular meme that can, you know, we've got this AI technology which people seem scared about, and you go, "Well, maybe this is gonna be the solution." People are worried about nuclear catastrophe. We've already priced in the downside, right? We've priced in nuclear war. That's already a possibility.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- JCJimmy Carr
Why not take the upside?
- CWChris Williamson
Did you read William MacAskill's What We Owe The Future? Did you see that?
- JCJimmy Carr
No, but I, I, I heard people talking about it. I, I haven't got around to reading it. Is it, is it good?
- CWChris Williamson
Interesting guy. Good. It's, it's an important book, I think, to read, especially if you think about these topics, uh, in a big way.
- JCJimmy Carr
Well, that idea of, like, people being... People are important, um, temporally and spatially.
- CWChris Williamson
Yes.
- JCJimmy Carr
So the idea that we're quite obsessed with us-
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- JCJimmy Carr
... in the West-
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- JCJimmy Carr
... in America-
- CWChris Williamson
And us right now.
- JCJimmy Carr
... Western Europe.
- 33:40 – 41:39
The Internet’s Culture of Cynicism
- JCJimmy Carr
mean, it's, it, uh, the internet's a problem for me because, uh, the anonymity is- is an issue. Um...
- CWChris Williamson
Are you with Jordan Peterson on this?
- JCJimmy Carr
What, on the, what he says?
- CWChris Williamson
He says that no one, no one should have a Twitter account that hasn't uploaded a photo of their ID.
- JCJimmy Carr
I- I- I kind of would think that's be an interesting thing to try. I mean, what's the argument against that? That- that whistleblowers couldn't operate? Well, I guess whistleblowers existed before Twitter and they used to have to go to a paper and the paper would then print the story. That doesn't seem like a terrible system. So, we go back to that and everyone has to upload, and then you go, "Well, you can still shitpost, you can still do all that stuff. It's just, it has to be traceable to you." Because we are who we are when nobody's watching. If you wanna know who you really are, be on your own, go somewhere on your own, on holiday, whatever, and you, that's who you are. If you're driving along and you throw the soda can out of the window of the car, that's who you really are. No one does that with kids in the back. Monster. But if that's, if that, if you do that, if that's who you, if that's, it's interesting to kind of note that. You know, it's the difference between character and reputation, you know, you really know who you are. Reputation is what everyone else thinks about you, but you know who you are in yourself.
- CWChris Williamson
It's interesting to me to think about how the way that we- the way that we act when nobody is looking tells us an awful lot about ourselves. It's that adage about, um, listen to how he talks about his mother and how he treats the serving staff at the restaurants when you're on dates. It's like a good litmus test-
- JCJimmy Carr
Uh-huh.
- CWChris Williamson
... for the guy that you're dating, because that shows kind of who, when the stakes are incredibly low-
- JCJimmy Carr
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... how do you show up as a person? But yeah, go back to the cynicism angle.
- JCJimmy Carr
I-
- CWChris Williamson
What do you think's going on?
- JCJimmy Carr
I- I don't know. I mean, I suppose it's easy. It's- it's easy to be kinda cynical about stuff. It's also, d- do people not feel like they don't have agency? You know, if we, uh, as we learn more about what's going on in the world, as we, you know, y- you're surrounded by news stories that you can do nothing about. You know, COVID was very interesting for that because it actually affected us, but n- normally, you're reading about an earthquake happening and you go, "Well, there's... What can I do? What difference does it make? It's- it's beyond my control." Or they're fracking for oil in Alaska. "Uh, okay, well, I, no one's listening to me." Or they're going to war in this country. "Okay, well, I'm- I'm not sure I've got a- a dog in that race." But, and you feel very, it's what, so it's, you- you- you kind of get cynical about it. I think people have got cynical about politics. They, it feels like they need big, new, exciting ideas that people can get behind, and it feels like a lot of politics is, like, talking about changing this thing a tiny little bit-
- CWChris Williamson
Hmm.
- JCJimmy Carr
... and change- changing that, and it's, people are kind of in one camp or the other.
- CWChris Williamson
I wonder whether the skepticism around the legitimacy of elections is born out of this sort of sensation people have that they don't really have any, that- that they can't contribute and what they do doesn't matter, because that's- that's the most...... extreme version of it, right? Even my vote didn't matter. Even my legitimate vote didn't matter.
- JCJimmy Carr
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
So regardless of whether or not you think that the voting machines are hacked or whether or not it's- it's part of some big conspiracy, which it very well may be, it definitely seems like you could sort of extrapolate forward, "Oh, well, if what I do doesn't matter at all, this is a perfectly designed continuation of that narrative as well." So maybe people were- were primed to believe that a little bit more.
- JCJimmy Carr
Yeah. I mean, I think it's a, it's a very interesting point to kinda go, "Well, if people don't even think their vote counts, then what can you do?" But- but I guess if you're- if you're pinning your hopes for, um, self-actualization on your party getting in, it's like following a football team. It's like, it's- it's a fun thing to do, but don't- don't let it take over your life. You know, these are 11 guys that don't give a fuck about you, and they're kicking a ball around. It can't be everything. It can't be the whole of your life. Politics as well, can't be the whole of your life. You can't hope that that's gonna bring you everything. It's, you want a- you want a- a- a better world, but how are we gonna get... You know, it's a good question to ask, like, "How do we get a better world? Um, how do we- how do we bring the standard of living up? What do we actually want for the world?" 'Cause it's not just more money. I mean, you see what happens when people get more money. There's just more inflation, and sort of that hidden tax kicks in. So what do we want? We want better education, better chances for everyone, better opportunities, I guess. It's w- it's p- like, there's a lot of stuff that everyone kind of agrees on, right?
- CWChris Williamson
Why do you think we think about luck incorrectly?
- JCJimmy Carr
My thing on luck is, like, we're- we're incredibly lucky. W- there's certain things that we devalue, right? So- so, um, looks is a really good example. Like, if someone's a- a- a model, and they're- they're gorgeous, and they're photographed, lucky. People are kind of a bit dismissive of that. If someone's born really smart, you- you never hear, "Oh, you're lucky, you were born with an IQ of 162. Hmm, bit of luck." No one thinks that. We sort of... The two great myths in our society are, um, uh, uh, it's hard work and talent, aren't they? And it's always total bullshit. It's always a mix of the two, and finding the right medium, the right edge for you, the right thing to be doing. So you got b- people who think, "Oh, you know, Bill Gates, oh, he worked so hard. He used to work 18 hours a day, slept at the office. He worked so hard to build that company." No, he's incredibly bright. He had... Uh, you know, it's- it's always, you know, the talent and the hard work. You know, Michael Jordan, if he hadn't shown up to practice, would be just a guy. Um, and also, if he was living 200 years ago, pre-basketball, I don't know. I don't know. You know, that skill set is very particular. So you... What's- what's- what's- what's luck? Th- everyone's incredibly lucky. I mean, just to be here is... It's beyond, right? I don't know. I kinda, I like the idea of just going, "Okay, look, we're very lucky. We've got what we've got. Run with it." And also, you're not gonna change it. You- you mi- that thing of, like, acceptance being kind of that first step in therapy-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- JCJimmy Carr
... strikes me as really sensible. Just looking at what you've got and go, "Right, this is it. This is it for the whole journey. I can work on this." It's like nature/nurture. Obviously, nature has got a bigger effect than nurture, but nurture's the only bit anyone gives a fuck about, 'cause it's the only bit you can play with.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- JCJimmy Carr
Until I can start fiddling with my DNA sensibly, then I'm gonna be... I'll be nurturing. And nurture, people seem to think nurture stops. You know, people seem to think nurture and environment is a thing for kids-
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- JCJimmy Carr
... and the right school, but really, look at you as a shining example of environment. So you've- you put yourself in the micro and the macro in a better environment than you were in five years ago. You're not surrounded by people on Love Island. You're surrounded by these incredible intellects. And you've taken yourself out of your- where you grew up and went to university, and you've taken yourself to- to Austin because there's this kind of energy there, and there's other people that are trying to do the same thing as you, and you put yourself in that environment. That strikes me as- as incredibly kind of powerful. But the idea that, you know, if you're still hanging around with the people you hung around with 25 years ago and they're not adding value, then what are you doing?
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah, me and George had this idea that we're gonna write a- an essay on together. So I'm gonna try and explain it to you now. It's not fully thought out, but we'll see if we can get there. The difference between observable and hidden metrics, and how they influence our motivation. So, a lot of the time people will trade a hidden metric for an observable
- 41:39 – 53:25
Hidden Vs Observable Metrics
- CWChris Williamson
metric. A good example of a hidden metric would be something like peace of mind.
- JCJimmy Carr
Okay.
- CWChris Williamson
And something like an observable metric would be money.
- JCJimmy Carr
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
People will happily trade something which may be more valuable ultimately for something which is less valuable simply because they can measure it more effectively.
- JCJimmy Carr
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Like, time's an interesting one because-
- JCJimmy Carr
It's a John Lennon lyric, isn't it? "I give you everything I got for a little peace of mind."
- CWChris Williamson
There we go.
- JCJimmy Carr
But that- but that... It's a very interesting point, because that idea of going, you know, if you can't measure it, we tend to go to what's measured.
- CWChris Williamson
Correct.
- JCJimmy Carr
Uh, and so the idea of going these... And a- but actually what matters is it's, you know, emotional-
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- JCJimmy Carr
... a lot of the time.
- CWChris Williamson
And there's- there's no dashboard. This is why George tries to have a dashboard for all of the things that he does. He's got this end-of-day assessment type form, custom type form he's made himself that auto-populates to a Google Sheet. And at the end of-
- JCJimmy Carr
Of course he has.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah. Uh, yeah, he's- he was born an incel but managed to ascend out of it. He has got himself to the stage where he's tracking, "What were the three things that I did today? What was my sense of presence? How connected was I? Da-da-da-da-da-da," all the way down. And his goal is to track this over time, right? To see, what are the correlations between my actions and the way that I felt? So he's trying to make the hidden observable.And the problem that we have is that things that really, really matter to us, like connection and peace of mind-
- JCJimmy Carr
Hm.
- CWChris Williamson
... and you know, our dopamine and serotonin balance throughout the day, like, how content and fulfilled did I feel? All of these things, they're just fucking words. There's this nebulous, ephemeral, wishy-wi- It's trying to hold smoke, right?
- JCJimmy Carr
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
To try and work out what this is. But money, my bank account, it's a fucking good game. The number of followers I've got on social media, it's a really fucking good game. So I'll chase down the observable.
- JCJimmy Carr
Well, it gets back to that story of like what's the most successful story in human history? Money. Money is the greatest story ever told 'cause what even is it? Really when you break it down, it's kind of, um ... It's, it's not anything, and yet everyone believes in it. Everyone believes in that story. And, uh, what you're getting to is what's really important in life, and the stuff that maybe you can't measure is kind of what matters, right?
- CWChris Williamson
I wonder if there's th- this hidden observable framework that we've got here, I wonder if there's an equivalent to do with luck. So, what you were talking about is that the actual chance of us all being here, which I did for my TEDx talk, I actually looked at this, it's the same likelihood as all seven million people in Ireland rolling a trillion-sided dice and all of them coming up with the same number. It's astronomical. It's way, way, way, way, way more than all of the particles in the observable universe because your parents had to meet at that particular ovulation cycle with that particular sperm all the way back. F- Forget surviving and all of the rest of it.
- JCJimmy Carr
T- To pre-humanity to, yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Correct, all of the way. The only way that you are here is with the exact precise combination of each different iteration that goes all the way back of how to be that sperm and had to be that day.
- JCJimmy Carr
I find that, I find that slightly makes my head hurt, you know, with that thing of...
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- JCJimmy Carr
Sam Harris was talking about this recently, the idea that, um, maybe there's no free will. Maybe we have to be having this conversation now because when the Big Bang happened, everything rolled down like this.
- CWChris Williamson
This was ordained.
- JCJimmy Carr
Of course.
- 53:25 – 1:06:32
Using Useful Delusions to Make Life Better
- CWChris Williamson
and you're deluded in some way-
- JCJimmy Carr
Mm.
- CWChris Williamson
... why not pick a delusion that is useful to you?
- JCJimmy Carr
Well, this is what NLP gets you, neuro-linguistic programming. Talks a lot about presuppositions because you can't know. You don't know it for a fact. It's kind of a, you know, a little bit of a pseudoscience. So what's useful? Rather than thinking about what's correct, what's useful? What makes a difference? If I believe I can do that, I can do that. The belief is often the thing that makes the difference.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm. Did I do that bit? Did I tell you about the, uh, symbolic truth but literal falsehood framework?
- JCJimmy Carr
No, go on.
- CWChris Williamson
This is fucking cool. Okay, so things can be symbolically true but literally false. Uh-
- JCJimmy Carr
Okay.
- CWChris Williamson
... and this is most religious stories. So, the belief that porcupines can throw their quills, right? Literally untrue. A porcupine can't throw its quills.
- JCJimmy Carr
Right.
- CWChris Williamson
Like, it's not a fucking... It's not Phil-
- JCJimmy Carr
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... de Power fucking Taylor.
- JCJimmy Carr
Right.
- CWChris Williamson
Uh...
- JCJimmy Carr
Good luck, American listeners, with that reference.
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs) Phil Taylor is a l-
- JCJimmy Carr
He's a fat- fat knacker darts player.
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs) Legendary darts player from- from England.
- JCJimmy Carr
You say legendary, I say fat knacker. But, you know, potato, potahto.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah. He can throw a- a- a sharp thing.
- JCJimmy Carr
So- so they can't do that, but it's-
- CWChris Williamson
They can't throw their quills.
- JCJimmy Carr
... but it's a useful thing to believe.
- CWChris Williamson
Their belief... Yeah, because they're barbed and if they get in you, you're fucked. So, not good. The belief that porcupines can throw their quills is symbolically true in that it's adaptive for you to believe it. Another one would be-
- JCJimmy Carr
Right.
- CWChris Williamson
... that pigs are uniquely dirty animals. Ever seen a cow? A cow's pretty dirty as well. So, all of the religious traditions that said we don't eat pigs because pigs are uniquely dirty animals, literally false. Figuratively...... pigs do carry a higher pathogen load, typically-
- JCJimmy Carr
Right.
- CWChris Williamson
... than other animals in their meat. So by believing that that's the case, it's an adaptive, uh, outcome for you. Now, I- I learned this from Bret Weinstein six or seven years ago, right? Then, I've been playing with it for ages and ages to try and think of something which is literally true but figuratively false, so what's the opposite of this, right?
- JCJimmy Carr
Mm-hmm.
- 1:06:32 – 1:16:45
The Rise of Andrew Tate in the Silent Crisis of Young Men
- JCJimmy Carr
men, I feel, are in crisis, and, uh, not that young women aren't in crisis. They are as well, I mean, young people generally, but it feels like young men are having a- a silent crisis. You know, we- we talk about certain things, and we don't talk about, um, other things, and, you know, young men committing suicide seems to be a, it's a- a huge problem at the moment, and a lack of purpose and agency is a huge... You know, why are video games so popular? You know, especially with young men, and it's a, um, a facsimile of career and purpose and drive and different levels, and there's something in us-... does it not that men and women are so very different. I always think, like, the big difference gender-wise is men are all taking a performance-enhancing drug every single day, and that drug is testosterone. And really, if you had to talk about what testosterone does for men, it's risk-taking. So when we talk a lot about all the CEOs, all the big CEOs are men and it's very unfair, also prisons are full of men because men take ludicrous risks. So I think if you were gonna life hack for ... I mean, I've got a daughter, and the advice I, I give her is, "Take more risks." I- and you can, because you're making a conscious decision, it's not a hormonal decision-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- JCJimmy Carr
... then maybe you can actually do better because you cannot do the dumb shit. You don't need to jump from the high board.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- JCJimmy Carr
But you can move to a city where there's more opportunities. Taking those risks that- that, you know, the average man takes. Like, I kinda look back and it seems so easy that I left my job and became a comic, because I did it. The idea that that was preordained was s- so fucking stupid, such a ludicrous mid-20s Hail Mary catch of a, "Ugh, this life's boring, I'm gonna go and do something more fun."
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- JCJimmy Carr
Crazy. Um, so I think that's it. It's kind of, that's kind of an interesting point of going the, um, how do we, how do we make things more equal between men and women in our society? And I think encouraging greater risk in young women is, is a really sensible hack, 'cause that's what, that's what guys have got. They're- they're taking crazy chances.
- CWChris Williamson
Well-
- JCJimmy Carr
You, you, you leaving ... You had a very comfortable life and a good living and a good career, and you traded it in for madness, for like, "Oh, well, I'm just gonna be, you know, an, uh, is autodidact," you know? It's like you're self-educated. You seem to be ... You should have this kind of thirst for knowledge, and you're going, "Yeah, well, I'll, maybe I'll just do that," just doing the thing that you love.
- CWChris Williamson
It's one of the reasons why I had such a problem with the term "It was meant to be." So the reason that I hate this post hoc rationalization of how a bad situation became a good situation because it was meant to be in the end, it completely removes all of the agency that you had over turning that shit situation into something that was good. Let's say that you-
- JCJimmy Carr
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... lose a leg in a car crash and you're in a hospital bed, and while you're there you begin watching history YouTube videos about ancient Rome, and you realize that you're really interested in it. And 10 years later you are now the biggest ancient Rome historian presenting shows for your own channel. Maybe you're on the BBC. You've written books. You're a best seller. You've got only got one leg, but doesn't matter. Saying, "It was meant to be. I got in that car crash for a reason so that I would spend enough time in a hospital bed, so that I would find the videos about the Roman Empire, so that I could have this career," ultimately nets out at taking away all of the alchemy that you had-
- JCJimmy Carr
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... that turned this ... Hang on. Let- let's do it in a reverse way. You had, you got dealt a really unfortunate card and managed to ... There we go. That's blackjack.
- JCJimmy Carr
But the, the cards you got dealt are the cards you got dealt. I really like that thing of like, uh, at some point you gotta go with what you got or you're not gonna go. So you just, you do what you need to do. And like, it's interesting now the, uh, like the, the educational bit of this, the idea that you're going, look, it's- it's, uh, y- you're educating yourself now. To what end? To what purpose? Well, you're making it easier for, for other people down the line. And I'm working on a thing at the moment where I'm trying to write a, um, a language for comedy. I'm trying to write-
- CWChris Williamson
I'm excited for this.
- JCJimmy Carr
Trying to write a comedy course, a book. I- I'm not quite sure what it's gonna be, but the idea of going I think there's too much mysticism about writing jokes. I think even professionals, even some of the goats, uh, they kinda write it on stage and they embody a, um, a part of their persona on stage, and they can conjure up these funny things, and- and there's alchemy.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- JCJimmy Carr
And I go, "Yeah, maybe," but actually you can break it down. You can break down what you're doing there and, and it can be taught. The idea that it can't be taught is to me so incredibly limiting. The idea that comedy can't be taught is like, it's like going, "Well, music can't be taught, of course, 'cause great musicians are great musicians."
- CWChris Williamson
Are you saying that, are you saying that the comedy industry has a disproportionate number of narcissists in it, Jimmy? That would be a surprise.
- JCJimmy Carr
How dare you. Um, yeah. I- no, I've got a good line on narcissism. I think I've got a couple of narcissists in my life, so my line is, "A narcissist, they've got the disease and you've got the symptoms."
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- JCJimmy Carr
Pretty much sort of sums it up, doesn't it? Hey, it's- it's an issue. If you've got one in your life, you know about it. Um, yeah, I think it's really interesting that thing of going if it was like music, more like music-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- JCJimmy Carr
... and people could sort of discover themselves, because really what are the teenage years about? You- you ... It's uncomfortable being a teenager. It's uncomfortable like ... And- and the, and we're all, you know, growing. It doesn't s- really stop. But that idea of going, "Well, who am I?" If you're the person you were 10 years ago, then you fucked up if there's no growth in it, i- i- if you haven't progressed. But it's constantly asking yourselves kind of the, the right questions-
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- JCJimmy Carr
... and, and, and finding a bit of humor in that is just makes, it just makes the, the journey a little bit easier, doesn't it?
- CWChris Williamson
Talking about that trajectory and how it's important to think about where you're going and other people respond to the rising or falling of your stock in kind, there's an argu-
- JCJimmy Carr
But, but that's, that's character versus reputation. So character is what you know about yourself.If you have a crisis and you're getting canceled, um, your reputation is in the toilet.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
Episode duration: 2:43:35
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