An Expert's Guide To Mastering Difficult Conversations | Tim Harkness | Modern Wisdom Podcast 198

1. 0:00 – 0:39

   Safety and truth: the two non‑negotiables of good conversation

   1. THTim Harkness0:00

      When you're talking, you need to be able to achieve two things. The one thing you need to be able to do is you need to be able to achieve safety, and that is that basically people feel respected, they feel that they are being respected, and they feel that their needs are being respected. That's the one thing that has got to happen. And if that doesn't happen, this conversation is not going to work as well at all. (whooshing sound)

   2. CWChris Williamson0:22

      I'm joined by Tim Harkness. Tim, welcome to the show.

   3. THTim Harkness0:25

      Thank you very much, Chris. Nice to be here.

   4. CWChris Williamson0:27

      Pleasure to have you here. An Expert's Guide to Mastering Difficult Conversations. Has there ever been a more appropriate time-

   5. THTim Harkness0:35

      (laughs)

   6. CWChris Williamson0:35

      ... to work out how to have difficult conversations than right now?

2. 0:39 – 4:21

   Why difficult conversations are peaking right now: lockdown, politics, and domestic friction

   1. THTim Harkness0:39

      You know, I'd, I wrote the book and just th- there's one line in the book that refers to the, the pandemic. A- and it's the last m- it's the last revision that was made to the, the, the manuscript. And I thought to myself as the lockdown started, "Is the book relevant still?" Because it just seemed that we had this all-encompassing issue that we all needed to pay attention to. Um, and then, of course, you know, the, the complexity of the lockdown emerged and then the Black Lives Matter protest began as well, and suddenly I thought to myself, actually, yes, uh, you know, I, I think this notion... And, and, you know, not even to make a claim for my book, but just to make a claim for talking, just to make a claim for communication, I think this is something that we need globally. And yeah, absolutely, it's been reinforced in the last couple of months.

   2. CWChris Williamson1:32

      You, uh, you had a little bit of divination, clairvoyant foresight perhaps there about just how much it was needed.

   3. THTim Harkness1:39

      (laughs) Well, you know, I, I mean, obviously we, we've been dealing with Brexit for years, you know, and, and, uh, I, I think people have been... Th- th- there's this growing economic inequality that, that I think has, has been a, a concern for people, um, and, and that's just at the political level, you know. And, and then at the, at the personal level or the professional level, I mean, one of the things that the lockdown has thrown up has been, um, what... I, I read this book and, and it calls it domestic bargaining, and it, it's basically who does the vacuuming.

   4. CWChris Williamson2:10

      (laughs)

   5. THTim Harkness2:10

      But, you know... (laughs) Th- there's this whole kind of, um, uh, field of study around it. Uh-

   6. CWChris Williamson2:18

      Oh, that's a body of work now.

   7. THTim Harkness2:20

      Oh, yes, yes, absolutely. And, and, you know, the, the thing is, I mean, just think how much it affects all of us. Well, I don't know if it affects you, but it certainly affects me.

   8. CWChris Williamson2:28

      Me and my housemate, me, me and my housemate have got every other Thursday we get the Marigold yellow gloves on and-

   9. THTim Harkness2:36

      Right.

   10. CWChris Williamson2:36

       ... we throw the tunes on and he does the-

   11. THTim Harkness2:39

       Okay.

   12. CWChris Williamson2:39

       ... he does the bathroom and living room and I do the-

   13. THTim Harkness2:41

       Great.

   14. CWChris Williamson2:41

       ... I do the kitchen and downstairs and then it's done and that's it once every two weeks.

   15. THTim Harkness2:45

       Okay, so you go for straight equality. That, that, that's your... It's like-

   16. CWChris Williamson2:48

       Equal-

   17. THTim Harkness2:48

       ... absolutely-

   18. CWChris Williamson2:49

       ... equality of outcome and equality of opportunity. Yeah, equal access-

   19. THTim Harkness2:52

       Okay.

   20. CWChris Williamson2:52

       ... to the Hoover, equal access-

   21. THTim Harkness2:53

       Right. (laughs)

   22. CWChris Williamson2:54

       ... to the, to the (laughs) -

   23. THTim Harkness2:55

       Okay.

   24. CWChris Williamson2:55

       ... to the brush.

   25. THTim Harkness2:55

       Yeah. So, so that's your method and that's what works. It's not everybody goes with that, by the way. You know, there, there's some more complex discussions-

   26. CWChris Williamson3:02

       (laughs)

   27. THTim Harkness3:02

       ... um, that, that can emerge.

   28. CWChris Williamson3:05

       (laughs) I want to know if you're listening and you've got a very convoluted way that you and the people that you live with have, um, partitioned the housework throughout lockdown, I want you to tell me what the most complicated ways are that that's happened 'cause-

   29. THTim Harkness3:19

       Yeah.

   30. CWChris Williamson3:19

       ... this just sounds... I found out, um, my friend's, uh, girlfriend has a very complex way of keeping the house clean.
3. 4:21 – 6:55

   Rule #1: agree what you’re talking for (and name the kind of conversation)

   1. CWChris Williamson4:21

      So high, high level, what is the purpose of communication and why do we need to learn how to talk?

   2. THTim Harkness4:27

      Yeah, well, you know, the, that's rule one, is agree what you're talking for. So, you know, that, that question, what is the purpose of communication, we, we have different objectives and we run into problems when two people each have their own agenda in a conversation. It's much easier when we both want the same thing. So, you know, ju- just to list some objectives, one kind of conversation is a listening conversation. So, you know, I, I get home at the end of the day and, and I say to my partner, "Honey, how was your day?" And that's a pure listening conversation because my partner knows about her day and I don't. So, you know, that, that's kind of point number one is it's just about information transfer. On the other hand, if, if you're a dentist and I, you know, come and visit you, you've got the information, I don't, and I just want to listen. So that's one kind of conversation, but you can run into problems because the one problem could be I don't realize what I don't know. The second kind of problem is when my ego gets involved and you start telling me there's some kind of issue with my teeth and, and I go, "Well, you're telling me I don't know how to look after my teeth." And then I stop listening because there's this kind of ego problem that, that's been invoked. So that's the one kind of conversation is a listening conversation. Um, you get another kind of conversation, which is an emotional conversation, where, uh, you know, you and I meet up and, and you say to me, you know, "How's it going?" And I say, you know, "I've been having a tough time." And I start to share my emotions with you.... and an emotional conversation has all the characteristics of a listening conversation, but it's got one more, and that is that if we're having a listening conversation, at some point when I'm listening, I can go, "Okay. No. I got it. I understand."

   3. CWChris Williamson6:15

      Mm-hmm.

   4. THTim Harkness6:16

      Which obviously you can't do in an emotional conversation. You know that there's no point-

   5. CWChris Williamson6:19

      All right, mate, you're a bit sad.

   6. THTim Harkness6:20

      (laughs) That's it.

   7. CWChris Williamson6:21

      I get it. I get it.

   8. THTim Harkness6:22

      I know. I know. (laughs)

   9. CWChris Williamson6:24

      Oh, get over it.

   10. THTim Harkness6:25

       That doesn't work. Um, so you know, that, that's another kind of conversation. There's a third kind of conversation, which is a, a, um, a values conversation, um, where we, we evaluate things. Um, was this a good football match or not? Um, you know, is, is, um, is immigration genuinely a problem? Uh, Black lives matter. Th- that's a values conversation. It's a, it's a conversation about what is important to us. Um, and

4. 6:55 – 11:09

   Fairness and prediction conversations: why ‘what’s fair?’ and ‘what will work?’ get tangled

   1. THTim Harkness6:55

      then once you've had the values conversation, things start to get... again, you can add a, a level of complexity on top of that, and you can start to have a fairness conversation, which is, what's fair? So even at the, the, the personal level, these are crucial conversations that we have. Now, you know, in your housework system, you've got it totally fair because you've got complete equality, you know, which is you, you dedicate the same amount of effort and the same amount of time, and there are no problems there, so you've got it worked out. But not everybody uses equality as a basis for fairness. Some people use deserve, which is, "I had a really tough day. I deserve some time off." Once you start introducing that element or once you start introducing the element of... 'cause that could be deserve. "I had a really tough day. You know, I had a very stressful meeting, only lasted for 30 minutes, but it was so stressful that I can't vacuum." You know? And, you know, I promise you that line has been used. (laughs)

   2. CWChris Williamson7:58

      (laughs) Yeah. I'm gonna try that next Thursday-

   3. THTim Harkness8:01

      (laughs)

   4. CWChris Williamson8:01

      ... when it's my turn. "May I please start this meeting?"

   5. THTim Harkness8:04

      (laughs) Yeah.

   6. CWChris Williamson8:04

      But he knows that I'm locked in the house. He knows that that's bullshit-

   7. THTim Harkness8:07

      Right. Right.

   8. CWChris Williamson8:07

      ... from me. Yeah.

   9. THTim Harkness8:07

      (laughs) Well, you could've had a tough podcast, you know. You never know. May- may- maybe the guy was no good. Um, so, so that's another complicating element. And a, and a third complicating element is, um, that sometimes fairness is about what we need. Um, and, you know, th- this is where, to be frank, some of the, um, some of the, the, the household bargaining, uh, arguments in... well, I'm supposed to say negotiations, negotiations in our house crop up is that we may have different needs in terms of how, how clean we need the carpet to be. And so, so on, on that basis, if I don't need the carpet to be quite as clean as what my partner needs it to be, then why should we have equal effort in terms of, uh, achieving something that we don't equally need? Um, so, you know, and, and, and, I mean, obviously... a- and not to take anything away from these household bargaining conversations because they're important and we all have to do them. So th- this is a major issue.

   10. CWChris Williamson9:06

       Tim, if the household bargaining people take error with this podcast, given the last 200 episodes that we've put out, I've... we've had a porn star on here, we've had-

   11. THTim Harkness9:15

       Okay.

   12. CWChris Williamson9:16

       ... we've had, you know... if that's the thing-

   13. THTim Harkness9:18

       All right. (laughs)

   14. CWChris Williamson9:18

       ... that makes people sit up and go, "You know, do you know what it is? That new... Chris had this South African fellow, and he was-"

   15. THTim Harkness9:24

       Yeah.

   16. CWChris Williamson9:24

       "... badmouthing the way that people organize the housekeeping." If that's an issue-

   17. THTim Harkness9:28

       (laughs) It went too far.

   18. CWChris Williamson9:29

       I'll be surprised, yeah.

   19. THTim Harkness9:30

       All right. (laughs)

   20. CWChris Williamson9:30

       You can talk about porn, but don't you fucking talk-

   21. THTim Harkness9:33

       Yes.

   22. CWChris Williamson9:33

       ... about the vacuuming.

   23. THTim Harkness9:34

       Well, (laughs) yeah, you never know, you know.

   24. CWChris Williamson9:37

       (laughs)

   25. THTim Harkness9:37

       I, I wouldn't be surprised.

   26. CWChris Williamson9:39

       Yeah.

   27. THTim Harkness9:39

       But, but, you know, having said that, then these same things apply to our professional conversations and our political conversations, that in terms of something like immigration, what's fair? Um, how do we distribute what people need compared to what people deserve compared to equality? Or in terms of, you know, distribution of wealth, you know, we... e- everybody's talking about the 1% at the moment and how they're, you know, so much richer than they used to be or the fact that CEOs now can earn 200 times as much as a, a base level employer in their, in their, um, employee in, in their organization. So, you know, that, that, that's another kind of conversation, is just a fairness conversation. And then another kind of conversation is a prediction conversation, and this is that you and I want the same thing, but we disagree about the best course of action to achieve it. So to me, in some ways, the Brexit conversation is a prediction conversation 'cause we all want the same thing. We all want a happy country, we all want people to have jobs, we all want community, um, you know, we all want healthy people and so on, but we've just got different ideas about what's going to deliver that. And I think that the prediction kind of conversation, it's important to recognize because often we're not actually that different 'cause we do actually want the same thing. It's more like a technical thing of, well, how do we achieve that? So,

5. 11:09 – 14:22

   The “master conversation”: talk about talking to get unstuck

   1. THTim Harkness11:09

      you know, those are some conversations, and then the kind of master conversation, and this is the one that I, I really want to champion, is the conversation where we talk about talking. So, you know, this is what you and I are doing now, we're having a conversation about conversations. And this is an important conversation, I think, for everybody. When you get stuck in one of the previous five conversations, you need to be able to bail out of that conversation, going, "Hang on. Wait, wait, wait. This isn't working. Let's start talking about talking. Let's start talking about this conversation." And really, that's what the book is designed to do, is kind of equip people with the skills to, to have that conversation where you're talking about talking.

   2. CWChris Williamson11:51

      But each of those different categories of conversation that you've just come up with there-

   3. THTim Harkness11:56

      Mm-hmm.

   4. CWChris Williamson11:56

      ... do they require a different mindset, a different skill set?

   5. THTim Harkness12:00

      Yeah. A- and, and, you know, that, that, that's... actually, just today, it's an article I've been working on is which of the rules apply particularly to those different kinds of conversations.... um, so you know, some of the rules... So broadly, when, when you're talking, you need to be able to achieve two things. The one thing you need to be able to do is you need to be able to achieve safety, and that is that basically people feel respected, they feel that they are being respected, and they feel that their needs are being respected. That's the one thing that has got to happen, and if that doesn't happen, this conversation is not going to work as well, at all. The second thing that you've got to be able to achieve is that there's got to be some kind of, um, journey towards the truth. There's got to be some kind of shared understanding of the world, and the conversation's got to be effective, and the skills that you use for each of those... Now, a conversation cannot be safe unless it's effective. You know, you and I can have all the respect we like for each other, and, you know, we have in, in the world for each other, but if we see the world in completely different ways... You know, if you think the world is round, and I think the world is flat, unless we've made some sort of progress to getting closer to a shared understanding of the world, w- we've been wasting our time. And it's unlikely that we're going to be able to maintain full respect for each other given that we've got such a, a kind of significantly different view of the world. But at the same time, we can't have an effective conversation unless it's a safe conversation. So, we can't start bombing each other with facts and logic and, you know, um, uh, arguments unless we actually both feel respected and, and, um, you know, kind of honored by the other person.

   6. CWChris Williamson13:44

      Yeah, it starts... It devolves into, um, either a debate, which is the sort of formal version of a conversation which you identify in the book, or, uh-

   7. THTim Harkness13:52

      Yep.

   8. CWChris Williamson13:52

      ... I guess, a s- a slanging match, which I, I, I don't know if that technically e- e- exists in the book.

   9. THTim Harkness13:57

      (laughs) .

   10. CWChris Williamson13:57

       Um, but yeah, y-

   11. THTim Harkness13:58

       But a very real thing.

   12. CWChris Williamson14:00

       Oh, oh, absolutely. Yeah, that's the, the unspoken type of conversation that, that's, uh, not in there. Yeah, it's, um, those two things, the effectiveness/kind of the namaste, one plus one equals three in this conversation, we both go away with more wisdom than we came in with it-

   13. THTim Harkness14:16

       Yeah.

   14. CWChris Williamson14:17

       ... uh, the effectiveness/truth, and the safety.

   15. THTim Harkness14:21

       Yes.

6. 14:22 – 16:49

   Why internet discourse fails: retorts, soundbites, and unsafe environments

   1. CWChris Williamson14:22

      I am seeing almost every conversation on the internet qualify neither of those-

   2. THTim Harkness14:30

      Yes, yes.

   3. CWChris Williamson14:30

      ... of those characteristics.

   4. THTim Harkness14:31

      Yeah.

   5. CWChris Williamson14:32

      Like people are going out of their way to make conversations as unsafe as possible-

   6. THTim Harkness14:37

      Mm-hmm.

   7. CWChris Williamson14:37

      ... to try and show as little respect. Y- you talk about the retort and the soundbite in the book as well, and both of those are really fascinating, the way that a retort is t- uh, a put-down designed to almost interrupt the flow of a conversation.

   8. THTim Harkness14:54

      Yep.

   9. CWChris Williamson14:54

      Um, and that the one safety net that you used to have in a flowing conversation-

   10. THTim Harkness15:01

       Mm-hmm.

   11. CWChris Williamson15:02

       ... was that you needed to have a particular degree of spontaneous, um, uh, creativity in order to be able to do-

   12. THTim Harkness15:13

       Yeah. Yeah.

   13. CWChris Williamson15:13

       ... a (snaps fingers) you know, a zinger, the knee- the old knee slapper-

   14. THTim Harkness15:15

       Yes, yes.

   15. CWChris Williamson15:15

       ... in a debate. Like you have to-

   16. THTim Harkness15:17

       (laughs) .

   17. CWChris Williamson15:17

       Whereas now that a lot of our conversations are mediated by the internet, you got five minutes.

   18. THTim Harkness15:22

       That's it. Yeah.

   19. CWChris Williamson15:22

       You can ask your mate what he thinks, "This guy just said that, that my podcast's shit. What can I... What can I call?"

   20. THTim Harkness15:28

       Yeah.

   21. CWChris Williamson15:28

       "Oh, call, call him bald. Call him bald. Yeah, he's bald." You know, like you-

   22. THTim Harkness15:31

       That's a good one. Yeah, yeah.

   23. CWChris Williamson15:32

       So, you can kind of do this.

   24. THTim Harkness15:35

       Mm-hmm.

   25. CWChris Williamson15:36

       And, um, yeah, it seems like everything at the moment is gearing us as a society, as a community toward having worse types of conversations.

   26. THTim Harkness15:47

       Yeah.

   27. CWChris Williamson15:47

       And I really do feel so blessed to f- find long-form conversations enjoyable, because if I didn't, I worry, 'cause I listen to-

   28. THTim Harkness15:58

       Fast.

   29. CWChris Williamson15:58

       ... I consume a lot of content, Joe Rogan-

   30. THTim Harkness16:01

       Okay.
7. 16:49 – 22:24

   Long-form conversation as training: attention, memory, and spoken-culture lessons

   1. THTim Harkness16:49

      But that's very interesting, and, and I hadn't thought of that, you know. I, I hadn't thought of the, the difference between the long form and the, you know, the tweet or something like that. But yeah, that makes sense, um.

   2. CWChris Williamson17:01

      I think being... just being around that a lot of the time, especially during lockdown, people maybe haven't had a lot of people to talk to.

   3. THTim Harkness17:08

      Yeah.

   4. CWChris Williamson17:09

      You... Maybe living on your own or living with-

   5. THTim Harkness17:12

      Yeah, yeah.

   6. CWChris Williamson17:12

      ... one other person, you don't have tons of people to talk to, so-

   7. THTim Harkness17:15

      Yeah.

   8. CWChris Williamson17:15

      ... I, I think I've, I've talked more to podcast guests than I have to anybody else.

   9. THTim Harkness17:22

      Right, right, yeah.

   10. CWChris Williamson17:23

       Um, or, or in an equivalent way, I've probably listened to Ben Shapiro-

   11. THTim Harkness17:27

       Right.

   12. CWChris Williamson17:27

       ... more than I've listened to any other person, and-

   13. THTim Harkness17:30

       Okay, uh.

   14. CWChris Williamson17:31

       What, what does that do to our-

   15. THTim Harkness17:34

       Yeah.

   16. CWChris Williamson17:34

       ... ability to understand how to communicate, right? Because really, there's no... there's not a whole lot of difference between me listening to Ben in my ears, you know, that's all I'm going around doing the housework-

   17. THTim Harkness17:44

       Yes, yes.

   18. CWChris Williamson17:44

       ... doing whatever-

   19. THTim Harkness17:45

       Yeah, yeah.

   20. CWChris Williamson17:45

       ... um, and a listening conversation where I don't ever speak.

   21. THTim Harkness17:49

       Yes. Yes, yes.

   22. CWChris Williamson17:51

       You know what I mean? So, what does that do to us and how does that... ho- how can that be the antithesis to-

   23. THTim Harkness17:57

       Yeah.

   24. CWChris Williamson17:57

       ... to this short-form stuff? I think that's...

   25. THTim Harkness18:00

       Yeah, and you know, I, I really like that idea because I, I think, you know... I think sometimes we can solve problems by reasoning our way through them. In other wo- other times, we can solve problems just by exposing ourselves to different things, you know, and what you're saying is let's just expose ourselves to more long form.... and in that, we solve many of the problems that have emerged, you know, because of the fast pace of life and technology and, and, you know, the, this intermittent, uh, communication that... and written communication also. You know, with... And, and I, I often think to myself, you know, one of, one of the stories that amazes me is, um, you know, being South African, um, one of, one of the key events in South African history was the Anglo-Zulu War, um, in 1879, um, and mainly the Battle of Isandlwana. And then what's famous in this country is the Battle of Rorke's Drift. And, you know, in, in a previous generation, they used to show the movie, uh, I think it was called Zulu, every Christmas, which was the story of the battle. You know, this was just a tradition. Everybody would sit down and watch this movie again and again and again. And the, um, the, the battle culminated in a series of negotiations, and you had the British party, who were literate, you know, they came from a literate society, and the Zulu negotia- negotiators were illiterate. They, they had no writing. What they did have, though, was the ability to memorize the entire conversation from a single listening.

   26. CWChris Williamson19:42

       Wow.

   27. THTim Harkness19:43

       So, they would go along, they would listen to a five-hour conversation, and they'd go back to the king, and they'd be able to recite it word for word. And, you know, you've got this... So, this is a society that, that at that point, and, and it's 150 years ago, had not been exposed to technology, but had developed this incredible spoken culture as a way of adapting for the technology, you know, that was letters and notes and, and, you know, shorthand and, and whatever else. And, uh, it is something I'm a little aware of, I, I think having come from growing up in an African country, is I do think sometimes there, th- there's a, there's a tradition of conversation, um, that, that is quite strong.

   28. CWChris Williamson20:34

       Still some echoes of that?

   29. THTim Harkness20:36

       I, I think so. You know, and, and that's not to say it doesn't exist here, you know, in pubs and, and areas where people here get together and just talk, um, you know. And yeah, if, if podcasts and long-form communications are emerging as another environment where people can do something that I think is natural to us, you know, what, what really is better than just sitting and talking with other people? Um-

   30. CWChris Williamson21:04

       Man, it, it's... I spend h- hundreds of hours every year doing it for-
8. 22:24 – 25:54

   Common conversational failure modes: escalation and the urge to ‘win’

   1. THTim Harkness22:24

      Uh, well, I, I think, I, I think you... There are two ways of looking at that. The, the one way of looking at it is you can say, what kinds of, what kinds of... what conversation styles do people have? So, the one way you could break it down is you could say some people tend to escalate. Um, so I, I, I think an example of this is someone like Piers Morgan.

   2. CWChris Williamson22:48

      (laughs)

   3. THTim Harkness22:48

      Now, you know, Piers, I agree with him strongly on some issues, and I disagree with him strongly on, on some issues as well-

   4. CWChris Williamson22:55

      Yeah, you're never-

   5. THTim Harkness22:55

      ... which I think is-

   6. CWChris Williamson22:55

      ... you're never moderate on Piers, are you?

   7. THTim Harkness22:57

      (laughs) Yeah.

   8. CWChris Williamson22:58

      (laughs) It's never moderate. It's always like-

   9. THTim Harkness23:00

      Yes.

   10. CWChris Williamson23:00

       ... yes or no.

   11. THTim Harkness23:01

       Yes, but at least it's mixed, you know? At least I don't disagree with him on everything and can't all agree with him on everything. Um, but as you say, you're not moderate, and the reason why is that he's not moderate. He escalates. He makes a big deal out of things, and, and he tends to bring emotion into the, um, in, into the topic. He sees the world in quite a black and white sort of way. And, um, so I, I, I think that's, that's an escalator, and escalators can be useful sometimes. You know, if, um, if we're having a picnic, and, um, you know, there, there's a beautiful sunset and there are, you know, butterflies flying around, in a way, we want to be escalating this. We want to be going, "Wow, this is fantastic." You know, we're having a wonderful time. This is brilliant. On the other hand, if we're having a, a political argument, or if, you know, we... if me and a mate are sitting in a room having a conversation and I go, "No, I, I don't think you're being consistent there," what I don't want to do is escalate, because I've picked up that he's being inconsistent. I don't then want to go, "You know what? You're inconsistent, you're illogical. You're illogical because you lack intelligence, and you lack intelligence because you have no education and you're not a good person," and blah, blah, blah, and that would be an escalation. And, you know, it's, it's something that we're all too prone to. So, so that's, you know, that, that notion number one, is the idea of escalation, and, and it can, it can be a good thing, but it can be inappropriate as well.

   12. CWChris Williamson24:27

       There's a lot there that people need to step into their own programming with regards to their desire to want to win a conversation.

   13. THTim Harkness24:36

       Yeah, yeah.

   14. CWChris Williamson24:37

       Because inevitably, by making the other person look dumb, feel silly, embarrassed, whatever it might be, it's like, "Yes, points for me." Like, "That's Chris, one up on the pedestal, and Jonathan, one down on the pedestal." You know?

   15. THTim Harkness24:52

       Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

   16. CWChris Williamson24:54

       Uh-

   17. THTim Harkness24:54

       And, you know, that, that comes back to rule one, which is agree what you're talking for. And if I'm going into a conversation with the aim of winning the conversation or taking the other person down a peg, um, well, in some ways, fine if that's your genuine objective, but I, I think the, the problem more likely is people don't realize that that's what they're pursuing, and it's not what they really want. Um, so absolutely, you know, I'm, I'm not looking to take... Well, it... I think most of the time, it's not an explicit aim, and it, and it's not the best aim in terms of achieving-

   18. CWChris Williamson25:28

       It's when it, it's when it creeps in. I think even if you asked someone-

   19. THTim Harkness25:31

       Yes.

   20. CWChris Williamson25:31

       ... "Did you mean to have an adversarial conversation there where you made the other person feel silly?"

   21. THTim Harkness25:35

       Yeah.

   22. CWChris Williamson25:35

       In retrospect or beforehand, no.

   23. THTim Harkness25:39

       Yes.

   24. CWChris Williamson25:39

       But they just get caught up. The signaling, there's that girl-

   25. THTim Harkness25:42

       Yeah.

   26. CWChris Williamson25:42

       ... over the far side looking, or there's that person at the table who I want to look-

   27. THTim Harkness25:47

       Yes.

   28. CWChris Williamson25:47

       The boss is watching at the table, and I want to look like I'm real capable-

   29. THTim Harkness25:51

       Yes, yes.

   30. CWChris Williamson25:51

       ... or whatever it might be.
9. 25:54 – 31:24

   Storytellers vs analysts: persuasion, precision, and political communication

   1. THTim Harkness25:54

      Yes. Yes. Second category, storytellers. So you, you get some people who, um, who communicate their view of the world through stories, and I think a great example of this is Boris Johnson, that he's got this, um, this real knack for metaphor, and he... You know, when he talks about the coronavirus as an invisible mugger, he says, "We're going to send it packing." When he was critical of, um, Theresa May's Brexit negotiations by saying, "We... There's a white flag fluttering as we walk into the meeting room." You know, these are very vivid, um, uh, and, and plausible stories that he tells, and obviously sometimes stories are effective. You know, as human beings we relate to stories, and, and they're a good way of persuading us sometimes. But then again, there's a, there's a limitation to them in, in that they lack, uh, a real kind of level of, um, precision and accuracy. So it... The, the problem with a story is that a story's not verifiable. You know, just so... So I'm f- I'm flying the white flag. Well, what on earth does that mean?

   2. CWChris Williamson27:03

      (laughs) Yeah.

   3. THTim Harkness27:04

      You know, how, how, how, how would we measure... You know, how do you measure whether we-

   4. CWChris Williamson27:09

      How much flag there is?

   5. THTim Harkness27:10

      Exactly.

   6. CWChris Williamson27:10

      Is it white? Is it slightly cream?

   7. THTim Harkness27:13

      Yeah, that, that's the thing, you know. There's just no way to tell, and when there's no way to tell, we've limited our potential to agree, because as you say, a conversation is about trying to find out the truth. It's trying to find out how the world really is. So what I should be doing in a conversation, well, what we should be doing in a conversation, is we're both trying to work out a fact about the world. I'm not trying to persuade you of my worldview, and you're not trying to persuade me of your worldview. We're both trying to journey towards an improved understanding of how the world can be, and that's ultimately how we persuade, is by perceiving what is real. And storytellers compromise on that potential. Um, and then, you know, just because PMQs is quite interesting at the moment, you've got what I would call an analyst. So you've got Keir Starmer, who is quite strong on the rigor, on the facts, on the detail, on the precision, and, um, and he interacts with... So that you've got an analyst interacting with a storyteller, and it kind of makes for quite good fireworks because you've got these two very different conversational approaches. Now, it does mean that they're really just scoring points off each other. You know, the potential for genuine collaboration and the potential for actual agreement is fairly low because, you know, you've got two such different approaches, and, and, you know, I, I think we all kind of relate to analysts. You know, if someone's building a bridge or an airplane, I want an analyst.

   8. CWChris Williamson28:46

      Mm-hmm.

   9. THTim Harkness28:46

      And, you know, to be perfectly honest-

   10. CWChris Williamson28:47

       I don't want Boris Johnson.

   11. THTim Harkness28:49

       No, I don't want a storyteller, you know. I don't want to, "Oh, these wings look fantastic."

   12. CWChris Williamson28:53

       (laughs)

   13. THTim Harkness28:53

       You know, "They are going to lift you up on the wind."

   14. CWChris Williamson28:55

       Yeah.

   15. THTim Harkness28:55

       You know, I'm not wanting that kind of thing. I'm wanting the analyst, and to be perfectly honest, you know, when it comes to an economic policy, I'm wanting an analyst as well. Um, but being an analyst is not enough because part of operating in a democracy is that we need to be bound together, you know. We need to have a shared identity. We need to have some s- some sense of a, a collective narrative that is meaningful and important for all of us, and that's where the storytellers come in, is that they can be very good at doing that. So, you know, once again, I think the analyst, there's definite strengths, but then it, it's not the only solution.

   16. CWChris Williamson29:33

       It's not super persuasive either, is it? You know, the fact that Boris Johnson won the most recent general election by a landslide as a storyteller, what does that tell you?

   17. THTim Harkness29:42

       That's- (laughs)

   18. CWChris Williamson29:42

       It tells you that people are much more persuaded by stories than they are by facts. If, if facts were what persuaded most people, then the economists would run the world.

   19. THTim Harkness29:52

       Yes.

   20. CWChris Williamson29:52

       It would just be the people that were able to... That macro this and the standard deviation is actually inside the interquartile range-

   21. THTim Harkness29:59

       That's it, yeah.

   22. CWChris Williamson29:59

       ... and blah, blah.

   23. THTim Harkness30:00

       Yes, yes, yes.

   24. CWChris Williamson30:00

       Like, so none of that. It's not about that.

   25. THTim Harkness30:03

       Yeah.

   26. CWChris Williamson30:03

       I love the idea of storytelling increasing the imprecision within the conversation-

   27. THTim Harkness30:11

       Yes.

   28. CWChris Williamson30:11

       ... with... As a tool, almost as a tool, right? And I like the... Thinking about in myself sometimes, I, only just realizing it now, use analogy-... as a way to escape being precise with what I'm saying.

   29. THTim Harkness30:32

       Yeah, yeah.

   30. CWChris Williamson30:32

       Because, as you say, as soon as you use an analogy, every- the rules of the game are completely out the window. You're not- you're no longer talking about the situation.
10. 31:24 – 36:01

    Self-diagnosis: the four conversationalist types and their red flags

    1. THTim Harkness31:24

       Yes. You know, I'd, I'd add one more just to, to fill out the set. So there are four kinds of con- conversationalists. So, so we've got the, we've got the, the storyteller, we've got the escalator, um, we've got the analyst, and one more is what I'd say is the safety firster. And the safety firster is the person who's prepared to compromise on their own point of view or on their own needs in order to stop the conversation getting heated or breaking down. So there comes a point where, you know, you and I, we're ha- having an argument, you say, "It's not gonna rain tomorrow." I say, "It is gonna rain tomorrow." Things get a little bit heated, and I go, "No, I, you know, I think it's probably not gonna rain tomorrow. I, I, I agree with you, you know, that that's okay." And I, I kind of bail out of, of the conversation. Um, so, so I think those are the four kinds, and if, if I was an escalator, the sort of red flags to look out for are, are the conversations... Uh, are we making mountains out of molehills? You know, are, are we... Am I reflecting on a conversation afterwards and thinking to myself, "Wasn't quite as much a big deal as it seemed at the time"? You know, to me, that would be a red flag, and it's quite difficult to spot in the moment because these things can, these things can build quite quickly. So, that would be a question I'd want to ask is, you know, "Am I getting more heated, more worked up than this, this issue really deserves?"

    2. CWChris Williamson32:55

       Consistently.

    3. THTim Harkness32:55

       And... Yes, yes. Um, is this, is this kind of where I end up in a conversation? And, and there's a risk here because... And, and this in fact is what Piers Morgan does, is because Piers Morgan lacks, uh, th- the analytical ability. He's not great at proving things with facts, so he tries to prove things with emotion, and he just goes for the thing of, "This is really important. This really matters. This is a moral issue." And, and that's how he tries to be persuasive, and, and he is persuasive. You know, escalation is, is very... It's kind of compelling, um, particularly if you're a safety firster and you don't like lots of emotion, then you're gonna be inclined to sort of back down. So, you know, I, I think the one flag for an escalator would be if you're looking back on a conversation and you go, "Wasn't quite as much of a big deal as it seemed at the time." Um, I, I think for the, the storyteller, um, sometimes we can look back and think, "What, what actually happened there?"

    4. CWChris Williamson34:00

       (laughs)

    5. THTim Harkness34:00

       "You know, what, what was that... You know, what, what was that about?" And, and, and at the time, it seemed convincing, you know, white flags and, you know, nobody likes white flags. "You know, that, that, that's gotta be wrong," but as you say, you know, then I look back and go, "Well, was it a bit cream, and how big was it, and you know, what's..." That's, you know, I think those are the storytellers is that at the time it all seemed quite plausible, but then you look back and you think, uh, you know... It's almost like a dream, you know, that-

    6. CWChris Williamson34:27

       When you get down to the brass tacks of what was-

    7. THTim Harkness34:30

       That's it.

    8. CWChris Williamson34:30

       ... the number at the end of the conversation.

    9. THTim Harkness34:32

       Absolutely. What was the number?

    10. CWChris Williamson34:34

        Yeah.

    11. THTim Harkness34:35

        You know?

    12. CWChris Williamson34:35

        Not, not the foggiest.

    13. THTim Harkness34:36

        Yes, yes, yes. And, and then, you know, and, and, and to me that would be the warning sign is, you know, we're all in agreement, um, and, and, and then it's like, "Well, no." So, so that's the storyteller. I, I think that-

    14. CWChris Williamson34:50

        But, but the reason, the reason that you're all in agreement is because you're kind of not really agreeing about anything.

    15. THTim Harkness34:54

        That's it, yeah.

    16. CWChris Williamson34:55

        You're agreeing about this other world-

    17. THTim Harkness34:57

        This, yeah.

    18. CWChris Williamson34:57

        ... that doesn't exist, but everyone's got this like... Everyone's granddad, right, is a storyteller.

    19. THTim Harkness35:03

        Yes.

    20. CWChris Williamson35:03

        Everyone's granddad will speak for 30 minutes, and you're like, "Yeah, Granddad," but then when he, when he finishes, you're like, "What the fuck did he just say?"

    21. THTim Harkness35:10

        (laughs) Yes. That's the thing, you know?

    22. CWChris Williamson35:13

        Okay.

    23. THTim Harkness35:13

        And, and that's kind of the strength and the weakness of the storyteller, and, and that would be the red flag is like, you know, what, what was that all about? I think the analyst is... You get left with this feeling of... You know that feeling when you haven't persuaded someone?

    24. CWChris Williamson35:29

        All the time, yeah.

    25. THTim Harkness35:30

        Yes. And, and, you know, just as I said that and you kind of... There was a bit of a delay, and I was thinking, "Have I persuaded you?" You know, had... There's this sort of awkward feeling like... (laughs) And, and then I'm going, "Well, should I escalate this? Should I start telling a story? What, what should I do?" You know, when... Because I think there, there are only specific circumstances where numbers are persuasive, and, you know, and, and I'll, I'll follow this track a little bit. Um,

11. 36:01 – 39:40

    Why scientists can change their minds: importing debate rules into everyday talk

    1. THTim Harkness36:01

       I, I was reading a book called The Righteous Mind by a writer called Jonathan Haidt, and, um, and he says, "Scientists, even when they're wrong, are prepared to change their mind in a way that ordinary people are not." And he's got this paragraph where he reflects on the fact that it's very difficult to persuade ordinary people of a view that they hold strongly, whereas scientists... You know, some scientists have built entire careers on, on a theory-... and they may get to a point where they've been working on this thing for 30 years, and eventually, there's this kind of incontrovertible argument, and they go, "Nah, wrong." You know-

    2. CWChris Williamson36:41

       Yep.

    3. THTim Harkness36:41

       ... "change my mind."

    4. CWChris Williamson36:42

       Yep.

    5. THTim Harkness36:43

       The reason why that is possible is that scientists know the rules of talking. Scientists cannot break the rules of debate. So, scie- scientists cannot do things like cherry-pick. They cannot ignore evidence, they cannot stick their heads in the sand and pretend that, um, th- that they haven't heard an argument, um, and they can't abandon the rules of logic. And when you are held to those rigorous processes, sometimes you're forced to change your mind, because you've either got the option of abandon reason or change your mind. And scientists generally would rather change their mind than abandon reason and surrender their identity as scientists. Now, normal people are not explicitly trained in the processes of reason, but we all see ourselves as reasonable people. We all... And the thing is, logic is not that difficult, you know. Amassing evidence is not actually that difficult, and we all kind of know how it works. It's just that we're not always good at applying it in particular situations. And what I have found is, even when you're talking with ordinary people, working as an analyst, you can pull people back into the conversation by saying, "But you cannot deny that and be reasonable. You cannot ignore that piece of evidence and be reasonable. You cannot stick your head in the sand and ignore that argument and be reasonable." So, you're always injecting this reminder to the person that they see themselves as reasonable and they are capable of reason. Um, so that, I think, is the opportunity for the analyst to become more persuasive, is, um, w- when they're reminded of, uh, reason. But, you know, th- that is one of the red flags when you're relying on reason too much, is you just go, "You know, I kind of said what I had to say, but I can see that this person was not moved by my, by my argument."

    6. CWChris Williamson38:58

       Yeah. Well, I mean, if, if all that it took was facts and figures, then we could just email everyone a spreadsheet and not bother to have the conversation.

    7. THTim Harkness39:04

       Yep.

    8. CWChris Williamson39:04

       And be like, "Right, it's just, it's just there." I think another problem that people have is, again, the rules of the game are so messy. And because you have... Like in a UFC, you've got the Brazilian-

    9. THTim Harkness39:13

       Yes.

    10. CWChris Williamson39:13

        ... Jiu-Jitsu guy, and then you've got the kickboxer-

    11. THTim Harkness39:16

        Yes.

    12. CWChris Williamson39:16

        ... and you've got the wrestler-

    13. THTim Harkness39:17

        Yeah, yeah, yeah.

    14. CWChris Williamson39:17

        ... and blah, blah. Um, because the rules of the game for talking are so messy, not like science-

    15. THTim Harkness39:25

        Yes.

    16. CWChris Williamson39:25

        ... in science, there's quite sharp, bright lines around, "This is right, this is wrong."

    17. THTim Harkness39:32

        Yes.

    18. CWChris Williamson39:32

        "this is statistically significant, this isn't. There's correlation, there's not correlation."

    19. THTim Harkness39:36

        Yeah.

    20. CWChris Williamson39:36

        You don't have those objective metrics.

12. 39:40 – 49:57

    Talking as ‘lawless MMA’: why rules, fast/slow thinking, and effort matter

    1. THTim Harkness39:40

       You know, you, you picked a great example there, um, basically mixed martial arts, no-rules fighting. Um, so, you know, I'm a sports psychologist, and, um, about... well, it was about 15 years ago, I worked with the South African lightweight, uh, mixed martial artist, and a champion. Um, and, and at the same time, I was working with the All Africa Judo heavyweight champion. This guy had not been beaten in five years.

    2. CWChris Williamson40:08

       (laughs)

    3. THTim Harkness40:08

       Um, he weighed a 120 kilograms.

    4. CWChris Williamson40:10

       Yeah.

    5. THTim Harkness40:10

       He was just like this awesome human being.

    6. CWChris Williamson40:13

       Yep.

    7. THTim Harkness40:13

       Um, but then I moved into the world of MMA. So, judo obviously is very strictly, you know, very strictly rule-based and, and governed, and, um, and then MMA at the time was a bit of a Wild West. You know, the, the UFC had, I don't think had emerged, or at least it wasn't a big deal. And, um, and this guy used to win fights by breaking people's arms. You know, that, that was just his technique, is he'd just, like, snap someone's arm and then, you know-

    8. CWChris Williamson40:39

       Game over.

    9. THTim Harkness40:39

       ... the fight was over. Yeah. And I used to go to his dojo sometimes and, and there were two characters that I remember. The one was this butcher who weighed... honestly, this guy weighed a 130 kilograms of lean, lean muscle. Steroided out to the max. This is one of the most terrifying human beings I've ever met in my life. Now, I mean, just consider the fact that he's probably got roid rage, like, just melting his brain. He's got all of these martial art skills, and the guy weighs a 130 kilograms, you know?

    10. CWChris Williamson41:14

        Yeah.

    11. THTim Harkness41:14

        (laughs) I mean, this is just a terrifying-

    12. CWChris Williamson41:16

        If he wants- if he wants you, you're his.

    13. THTim Harkness41:17

        (laughs) That's it. I didn't even used to look at him. I just used to stay away.

    14. CWChris Williamson41:22

        It's the safest strategy.

    15. THTim Harkness41:23

        Yeah, yeah. And the other one was, um, a chiropractor who was a kind of middleweight, and he was the coach, and, and he was describing... I remember the one time, he was describing how you pin someone down, um, on his, um, on his stomach on the floor, and you start to punch him in the back of the head. And obviously, in UFC, that rule is now... you can't do that anymore. And that has been one of the interesting things, even in mixed martial arts, has been how much more clear the rules have become over a generation. And if you go and watch UFC 1, you know, where they've got Gracie and sumo wrestlers and karate guys. You know, UFC 1, there's a guy who, he knocks over a sumo wrestler, and he just kicks him in the head, you know? Like-

    16. CWChris Williamson42:08

        Sends his tooth into row-

    17. THTim Harkness42:08

        ... as he's lying on the ground. That's it.

    18. CWChris Williamson42:10

        ... row F, doesn't he? Yeah.

    19. THTim Harkness42:11

        (laughs) Well, the one tooth goes into row F, the other one gets embedded in his foot.

    20. CWChris Williamson42:15

        (laughs)

    21. THTim Harkness42:16

        (laughs) And, you know, it's kind of wild. And... But because there are no rules... And, and actually, modern UFC is quite rule-governed, you know. There are quite specific rules, and the refs are quite quick to jump in, and, and people know what those rules are. And this really is my argument for talking, is that at the... talking has become lawless.... but I believe it would be improved, it would become more effective, and it would become safer if we can apply some rules to it. And that's not impossible, because as human beings, we're generally quite good at applying rules to complex processes. Take football.

    22. CWChris Williamson42:57

        You're gonna need to have a lot of work done in people's system two for them to slow everything down and be incredibly deliberate for a long time.

    23. THTim Harkness43:09

        Yeah. Yeah.

    24. CWChris Williamson43:10

        Because a deliberate conversation is enjoyable to a point-

    25. THTim Harkness43:18

        Yes.

    26. CWChris Williamson43:18

        ... but can become a bit arduous after a while.

    27. THTim Harkness43:21

        Yes.

    28. CWChris Williamson43:21

        Like, when you're consciously thinking about everything you say, the Sam Harris-ism that, i- where he says that, um, life is a dream where you're constrained by the reality outside of you in terms of how your, uh, brain perceives it, in that you don't know what's going to happen next. I don't know the words that are going to come out of my mouth until I say them.

    29. THTim Harkness43:43

        Yeah, yeah.

    30. CWChris Williamson43:43

        And that's a very bizarre situation to be in, when you actually think about it.
13. 49:57 – 58:14

    Great communicators and what makes them work: Mandela, Churchill, and the Trump test

    1. CWChris Williamson49:57

       Um, but yeah, direction over speed, for the people listening that love mental models. So, who do you think is the best communicator or some of the best communicators that have ever lived?

    2. THTim Harkness50:09

       (sighs) Um, well, uh, you know, I'm, I'm biased, I'm South African, uh, Nelson Mandela, um-

    3. CWChris Williamson50:18

       How do you, how do you know that you're gonna say that? I mean, he's, he's all right. Yeah, he's good.

    4. THTim Harkness50:22

       Yeah, yeah. I, I, I just think, um, I just think for a lot of reasons, you know? I, I think, um, in, in terms of his ability to reach out, um, I think in terms of his ability to tell stories, um, you know, he, he was an orator, um, and, and then just things like his, his body language, his tone of voice, his facial expressions. Um, but I also think in terms of his ... And, you know, rule three is, um, is most people are good, competent, and worthy of respect. And, and I think if there's one thing that I've kind of learnt or ac- n- not necessarily learnt but just accepted in this whole journey which has taken me years, it's possibly been rule three. Most people are good, competent, and worthy of respect. And what that means is that when we disagree, I don't have the easy solution, that the reason why we're disagreeing is because y- you just don't know stuff, you know? That, uh, our disagreement is rooted in your ignorance or your incompetence. I've got to find a more complex explanation but a better explanation for why you and I disagree. And I think in terms of, um, you know, Nelson Mandela, I, I, I think he really understood that. You know, he was able to take a national tragedy that had lasted for centuries and not locate the cause of it in the moral failings or the badness of a group of people, and he was able to see the good in everybody in the country, and I think that is what enabled him to speak so persuasively and, and powerfully. So, you know, that, that, that's me as a South African and, and, you know, and that's me kind of coming of age in, in the time that he was really, uh, uh, talking to the country. Um, I, I, I think, you know, I mean the other obvious answer w- would be Winston Churchill, and, you know, Winston Churchill is known for, um, we'll, we'll, you know, fight them on the beaches, we'll fight them ... A- a- and that's wonderful storytelling, um, but I spent some time reading through his speeches in detail and, and there's actually quite a, quite a precise logic that he's applying. And the other thing that he applies is that he links cause and effect, that he's not just saying, "It's all gonna be fine. We're gonna win." He's talking about things like ultimate sacrifice. "If we all do our jobs, if we all apply ourselves, then the process will deliver a result." So-

    5. CWChris Williamson53:13

       So is that the, uh, the analyst se- seeping in a little bit there?

    6. THTim Harkness53:16

       That's it, yes. So, while he is a wonderful storyteller, he's actually got this, um, this analytical understanding of the world and this understanding of how processes lead to outcomes, and, uh, you know, for me that's what makes him a compelling, uh, communicator as well.

    7. CWChris Williamson53:34

       He worked incredibly hard at it. I was listening to-

    8. THTim Harkness53:37

       Really?

    9. CWChris Williamson53:38

       ... Ryan Holiday's most recent book, not Ego is the Enemy, uh, Stillness is the Key, and he-

    10. THTim Harkness53:46

        Right.

    11. CWChris Williamson53:46

        ... talks a lot, he delves into figures from history and Churchill's one of them. And fuck me-

    12. THTim Harkness53:51

        Okay.

    13. CWChris Williamson53:51

        ... man, like he, Churchill did some graph-... Like he wrote, he wrote like 40 books, and he-

    14. THTim Harkness53:59

        Wow. Yeah.

    15. CWChris Williamson53:59

        ... he had this unbelievable routine, this walking and writing and, uh, painting routine where he did, it was like incred-... You know, for someone that was ... And then after the, the war, he was kind of then just sort of left to one side-

    16. THTim Harkness54:14

        Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

    17. CWChris Williamson54:14

        ... and then kind of forgotten about in a bizarre-

    18. THTim Harkness54:17

        Mm-hmm.

    19. CWChris Williamson54:17

        ... sort of way which I, I don't think many people know, and I found that-

    20. THTim Harkness54:20

        Yes.

    21. CWChris Williamson54:20

        I found that... He's a absolutely fascinating individual, and if anyone-

    22. THTim Harkness54:24

        Yeah.

    23. CWChris Williamson54:24

        ... that's listening has a good biography of his, uh, that they could suggest, I'd love to get stuck into that.

    24. THTim Harkness54:30

        Okay.

    25. CWChris Williamson54:30

        Trump, is he as much of a master communicator as people say?

    26. THTim Harkness54:34

        (sighs) Um, you know, he, he's obviously fits in the storyteller category.... um, so you know, nobody would accuse him of being an analyst. Um-

    27. CWChris Williamson54:47

        (laughs)

    28. THTim Harkness54:47

        ... he- (laughs)

    29. CWChris Williamson54:48

        That's, that's the nicest put-down I've ever heard.

    30. THTim Harkness54:52

        (laughs)
14. 58:14 – 1:03:19

    Closing synthesis: conversation skill compounds and is worth deliberate practice

    1. CWChris Williamson58:14

       I don't know whether it's that the US coughs and the UK catches a cold or whatever it is-

    2. THTim Harkness58:19

       Mm-hmm.

    3. CWChris Williamson58:20

       ... but, um, man, the, the caliber of... Or maybe this is, uh, my disposition of taking more notice of what's been going on in politics, just because I've been listening a little bit more.

    4. THTim Harkness58:32

       Mm-hmm.

    5. CWChris Williamson58:33

       But, man, my trust in what politicians say and what the media says-

    6. THTim Harkness58:40

       Mm-hmm.

    7. CWChris Williamson58:41

       ... my view of the, the delivery of the things that they say-

    8. THTim Harkness58:46

       Mm-hmm.

    9. CWChris Williamson58:46

       ... it's, there's levels of distrust that I've got-

    10. THTim Harkness58:50

        Yeah.

    11. CWChris Williamson58:50

        ... that need to be worked through here.

    12. THTim Harkness58:52

        Yeah, yeah.

    13. CWChris Williamson58:52

        And I wonder how much of that is the, me being precluded from ever trusting Trump because of what other people say about him. Like-

    14. THTim Harkness59:03

        Yeah.

    15. CWChris Williamson59:03

        ... but even this, like, I need to, I need to strip away the bad conversations from people that aren't him, to then look at the bad conversations that he is having, to the... Do you know? Like it is-

    16. THTim Harkness59:14

        Yeah.

    17. CWChris Williamson59:14

        ... difficult. And I, you know, if there's one thing I think that we can take away from this con- our conversation today, which hopefully has been at least, uh, in part precise and, and easy to understand, is that conversations are challenging. And-

    18. THTim Harkness59:27

        Yes.

    19. CWChris Williamson59:28

        ... it, they require work. And I think-

    20. THTim Harkness59:29

        Yeah.

    21. CWChris Williamson59:29

        ... because we just develop language as a byproduct of being a kid, then we learn some words in school, and then we just-

    22. THTim Harkness59:35

        Yep.

    23. CWChris Williamson59:35

        ... think that we're gonna be able to get through the rest of our life whilst-

    24. THTim Harkness59:38

        Yeah.

    25. CWChris Williamson59:38

        ... not working at it.

    26. THTim Harkness59:39

        Yeah.

    27. CWChris Williamson59:40

        You know, driving a car has a lower and upper bound. It has a lower bound on how bad you can be.

    28. THTim Harkness59:49

        Mm-hmm.

    29. CWChris Williamson59:49

        The lower bound is, do you cause road traffic accidents? The upper bound is essentially kind of once you're above that, it kind of doesn't matter. Like-

    30. THTim Harkness59:57

        Yes.

Episode duration: 1:03:20