An Expert's Guide To Mastering Difficult Conversations | Tim Harkness | Modern Wisdom Podcast 198

1. 0:00 – 15:00

   When you're talking, you…

   1. THTim Harkness0:00

      When you're talking, you need to be able to achieve two things. The one thing you need to be able to do is you need to be able to achieve safety, and that is that basically people feel respected, they feel that they are being respected, and they feel that their needs are being respected. That's the one thing that has got to happen. And if that doesn't happen, this conversation is not going to work as well at all. (whooshing sound)

   2. CWChris Williamson0:22

      I'm joined by Tim Harkness. Tim, welcome to the show.

   3. THTim Harkness0:25

      Thank you very much, Chris. Nice to be here.

   4. CWChris Williamson0:27

      Pleasure to have you here. An Expert's Guide to Mastering Difficult Conversations. Has there ever been a more appropriate time-

   5. THTim Harkness0:35

      (laughs)

   6. CWChris Williamson0:35

      ... to work out how to have difficult conversations than right now?

   7. THTim Harkness0:39

      You know, I'd, I wrote the book and just th- there's one line in the book that refers to the, the pandemic. A- and it's the last m- it's the last revision that was made to the, the, the manuscript. And I thought to myself as the lockdown started, "Is the book relevant still?" Because it just seemed that we had this all-encompassing issue that we all needed to pay attention to. Um, and then, of course, you know, the, the complexity of the lockdown emerged and then the Black Lives Matter protest began as well, and suddenly I thought to myself, actually, yes, uh, you know, I, I think this notion... And, and, you know, not even to make a claim for my book, but just to make a claim for talking, just to make a claim for communication, I think this is something that we need globally. And yeah, absolutely, it's been reinforced in the last couple of months.

   8. CWChris Williamson1:32

      You, uh, you had a little bit of divination, clairvoyant foresight perhaps there about just how much it was needed.

   9. THTim Harkness1:39

      (laughs) Well, you know, I, I mean, obviously we, we've been dealing with Brexit for years, you know, and, and, uh, I, I think people have been... Th- th- there's this growing economic inequality that, that I think has, has been a, a concern for people, um, and, and that's just at the political level, you know. And, and then at the, at the personal level or the professional level, I mean, one of the things that the lockdown has thrown up has been, um, what... I, I read this book and, and it calls it domestic bargaining, and it, it's basically who does the vacuuming.

   10. CWChris Williamson2:10

       (laughs)

   11. THTim Harkness2:10

       But, you know... (laughs) Th- there's this whole kind of, um, uh, field of study around it. Uh-

   12. CWChris Williamson2:18

       Oh, that's a body of work now.

   13. THTim Harkness2:20

       Oh, yes, yes, absolutely. And, and, you know, the, the thing is, I mean, just think how much it affects all of us. Well, I don't know if it affects you, but it certainly affects me.

   14. CWChris Williamson2:28

       Me and my housemate, me, me and my housemate have got every other Thursday we get the Marigold yellow gloves on and-

   15. THTim Harkness2:36

       Right.

   16. CWChris Williamson2:36

       ... we throw the tunes on and he does the-

   17. THTim Harkness2:39

       Okay.

   18. CWChris Williamson2:39

       ... he does the bathroom and living room and I do the-

   19. THTim Harkness2:41

       Great.

   20. CWChris Williamson2:41

       ... I do the kitchen and downstairs and then it's done and that's it once every two weeks.

   21. THTim Harkness2:45

       Okay, so you go for straight equality. That, that, that's your... It's like-

   22. CWChris Williamson2:48

       Equal-

   23. THTim Harkness2:48

       ... absolutely-

   24. CWChris Williamson2:49

       ... equality of outcome and equality of opportunity. Yeah, equal access-

   25. THTim Harkness2:52

       Okay.

   26. CWChris Williamson2:52

       ... to the Hoover, equal access-

   27. THTim Harkness2:53

       Right. (laughs)

   28. CWChris Williamson2:54

       ... to the, to the (laughs) -

   29. THTim Harkness2:55

       Okay.

   30. CWChris Williamson2:55

       ... to the brush.
2. 15:00 – 30:00

   Mm-hmm. …

   1. CWChris Williamson15:00

      a flowing conversation-

   2. THTim Harkness15:01

      Mm-hmm.

   3. CWChris Williamson15:02

      ... was that you needed to have a particular degree of spontaneous, um, uh, creativity in order to be able to do-

   4. THTim Harkness15:13

      Yeah. Yeah.

   5. CWChris Williamson15:13

      ... a (snaps fingers) you know, a zinger, the knee- the old knee slapper-

   6. THTim Harkness15:15

      Yes, yes.

   7. CWChris Williamson15:15

      ... in a debate. Like you have to-

   8. THTim Harkness15:17

      (laughs) .

   9. CWChris Williamson15:17

      Whereas now that a lot of our conversations are mediated by the internet, you got five minutes.

   10. THTim Harkness15:22

       That's it. Yeah.

   11. CWChris Williamson15:22

       You can ask your mate what he thinks, "This guy just said that, that my podcast's shit. What can I... What can I call?"

   12. THTim Harkness15:28

       Yeah.

   13. CWChris Williamson15:28

       "Oh, call, call him bald. Call him bald. Yeah, he's bald." You know, like you-

   14. THTim Harkness15:31

       That's a good one. Yeah, yeah.

   15. CWChris Williamson15:32

       So, you can kind of do this.

   16. THTim Harkness15:35

       Mm-hmm.

   17. CWChris Williamson15:36

       And, um, yeah, it seems like everything at the moment is gearing us as a society, as a community toward having worse types of conversations.

   18. THTim Harkness15:47

       Yeah.

   19. CWChris Williamson15:47

       And I really do feel so blessed to f- find long-form conversations enjoyable, because if I didn't, I worry, 'cause I listen to-

   20. THTim Harkness15:58

       Fast.

   21. CWChris Williamson15:58

       ... I consume a lot of content, Joe Rogan-

   22. THTim Harkness16:01

       Okay.

   23. CWChris Williamson16:01

       ... Sam Harris, Ben Shapiro-

   24. THTim Harkness16:02

       Fast, fast.

   25. CWChris Williamson16:03

       ... et cetera, et cetera.

   26. THTim Harkness16:04

       Yeah.

   27. CWChris Williamson16:04

       If I didn't enjoy that-

   28. THTim Harkness16:06

       Mm-hmm.

   29. CWChris Williamson16:06

       ... the only things that I would be consuming are like the 15-second Instagram story-

   30. THTim Harkness16:11

       Okay, okay.
3. 30:00 – 45:00

   Yes, yes, yes. …

   1. CWChris Williamson30:00

   2. THTim Harkness30:00

      Yes, yes, yes.

   3. CWChris Williamson30:00

      Like, so none of that. It's not about that.

   4. THTim Harkness30:03

      Yeah.

   5. CWChris Williamson30:03

      I love the idea of storytelling increasing the imprecision within the conversation-

   6. THTim Harkness30:11

      Yes.

   7. CWChris Williamson30:11

      ... with... As a tool, almost as a tool, right? And I like the... Thinking about in myself sometimes, I, only just realizing it now, use analogy-... as a way to escape being precise with what I'm saying.

   8. THTim Harkness30:32

      Yeah, yeah.

   9. CWChris Williamson30:32

      Because, as you say, as soon as you use an analogy, every- the rules of the game are completely out the window. You're not- you're no longer talking about the situation.

   10. THTim Harkness30:41

       The thing-

   11. CWChris Williamson30:41

       It's an analogous situation by definition.

   12. THTim Harkness30:43

       Absolutely, absolutely, yeah.

   13. CWChris Williamson30:45

       Um, so yeah.

   14. THTim Harkness30:46

       That, that, that's a big one.

   15. CWChris Williamson30:47

       Checking, checking yourself about-

   16. THTim Harkness30:49

       Yes.

   17. CWChris Williamson30:50

       ... "Hang on, am I using this to enhance the conversation and add flare-

   18. THTim Harkness30:54

       Yes.

   19. CWChris Williamson30:54

       ... and, and sort of color?"

   20. THTim Harkness30:56

       Yes.

   21. CWChris Williamson30:56

       "Or am I doing it to hide myself from, or hide away from a deficiency in rigor and precision about how I'm actually putting this topic across?" Those, those are really, really cool.

   22. THTim Harkness31:10

       Yep. Yes.

   23. CWChris Williamson31:10

       Uh, so we, we got that. Can we, can we try and help the people listening self-diagnose the kind of conversationalists that they are? They're thinking-

   24. THTim Harkness31:19

       Uh-

   25. CWChris Williamson31:19

       ... "This sounds, this sounds, this sounds good, but I don't know. Am I this person or am I-

   26. THTim Harkness31:23

       Yes.

   27. CWChris Williamson31:23

       ... that person?"

   28. THTim Harkness31:24

       Yes. You know, I'd, I'd add one more just to, to fill out the set. So there are four kinds of con- conversationalists. So, so we've got the, we've got the, the storyteller, we've got the escalator, um, we've got the analyst, and one more is what I'd say is the safety firster. And the safety firster is the person who's prepared to compromise on their own point of view or on their own needs in order to stop the conversation getting heated or breaking down. So there comes a point where, you know, you and I, we're ha- having an argument, you say, "It's not gonna rain tomorrow." I say, "It is gonna rain tomorrow." Things get a little bit heated, and I go, "No, I, you know, I think it's probably not gonna rain tomorrow. I, I, I agree with you, you know, that that's okay." And I, I kind of bail out of, of the conversation. Um, so, so I think those are the four kinds, and if, if I was an escalator, the sort of red flags to look out for are, are the conversations... Uh, are we making mountains out of molehills? You know, are, are we... Am I reflecting on a conversation afterwards and thinking to myself, "Wasn't quite as much a big deal as it seemed at the time"? You know, to me, that would be a red flag, and it's quite difficult to spot in the moment because these things can, these things can build quite quickly. So, that would be a question I'd want to ask is, you know, "Am I getting more heated, more worked up than this, this issue really deserves?"

   29. CWChris Williamson32:55

       Consistently.

   30. THTim Harkness32:55

       And... Yes, yes. Um, is this, is this kind of where I end up in a conversation? And, and there's a risk here because... And, and this in fact is what Piers Morgan does, is because Piers Morgan lacks, uh, th- the analytical ability. He's not great at proving things with facts, so he tries to prove things with emotion, and he just goes for the thing of, "This is really important. This really matters. This is a moral issue." And, and that's how he tries to be persuasive, and, and he is persuasive. You know, escalation is, is very... It's kind of compelling, um, particularly if you're a safety firster and you don't like lots of emotion, then you're gonna be inclined to sort of back down. So, you know, I, I think the one flag for an escalator would be if you're looking back on a conversation and you go, "Wasn't quite as much of a big deal as it seemed at the time." Um, I, I think for the, the storyteller, um, sometimes we can look back and think, "What, what actually happened there?"
4. 45:00 – 1:00:00

   Yes. …

   1. CWChris Williamson45:00

      all exist in.

   2. THTim Harkness45:01

      Yes.

   3. CWChris Williamson45:01

      But it requires an awful... Like, we can't get people to g- have consensus about, like, tons of stuff, but getting them-

   4. THTim Harkness45:08

      Yes.

   5. CWChris Williamson45:08

      ... to have consensus about the foundational presuppositions that o- o- occur b- before we have a conversation may also-

   6. THTim Harkness45:15

      Yeah.

   7. CWChris Williamson45:16

      ... be challenging.

   8. THTim Harkness45:17

      Absolutely, yeah. I, I, you know, I completely agree. And, and, you know, the, the point you're making about switching between system one and system two, that, that's rule four, talk fast and slow. And so much of the talking that we do... You know, you and I now, there's quite a lot of fast talking going on between the two of us. You know, we're, we're not planning, as you say, we're not planning what it is that we're gonna say. We kind of hearing the words come out of our mouths. And, and that's a great way to talk. You know, i- imagine if we're both just reading pieces of paper at each other, you know, that, that would be, that would be terrible. We would have lost something. Um, but there are times when I need to be able to jump in and, and error check, and that's the role of system two, is to every now and then, go, "No, wait, wait, wait. Hang on. Stop." And, and it's not a lot of the time, but if I can do it some of the time, then I've made an improvement. Um, and, you know, I, I remember, I, I, I didn't actually put this one in the book, but the one time, I, I used to have this old Peugeot 307, and, um-

   9. CWChris Williamson46:19

      Quality car. Was it in that good metal gray? What color was it?

   10. THTim Harkness46:22

       No, darker, darker.

   11. CWChris Williamson46:25

       Oh.

   12. THTim Harkness46:25

       Uh, uh, uh, yeah, yeah. Uh.

   13. CWChris Williamson46:26

       Okay, fair enough.

   14. THTim Harkness46:27

       (laughs)

   15. CWChris Williamson46:27

       Cool, cool. Tell us about it. I wanna know. Was it the diesel?

   16. THTim Harkness46:31

       No, it wasn't. It was petrol. It was a, a three-door petrol. Um, w- we used to have to get three kids in the back, um, and, and it wasn't running so well. And, um, and y- we were going to visit friends, and my wife said to me, "Let's just take the bus. You know, the car's not working well." I went, "Nah, it's gonna be fine. You know, there's gonna be no problem." And, and we drove to the friend's house, and then we couldn't find parking, so we drove about 100 meters past the friend's house, and at that exact point where we could not be any further from home, it broke down. And my wife turned to me, and she went, "You know, we should have taken the bus." And, and I remember, I, I, I can't remember the name of the movie. I think it's called Red October. It's a submarine movie, and you know, there, there are times when the submarine, everything's going bad, and, like, there are red lights, and people are running around, and there are sirens going off. And I was thinking, "I'm in that movie." You know, there are sirens going off, there's red, there's, there's just bad stuff going on.

   17. CWChris Williamson47:22

       (laughs)

   18. THTim Harkness47:22

       And, um, and, and, uh, you know, I, I'd... I mean, she was right, uh, obviously, um, but, but that was a moment where I, I think looking back, had I been able to slow things down and get a bit of system... And, and I think it was such a vivid sort of example, and, and, you know, I was so clearly in the wrong, um, that I think it was a nice example to be able to look back on and go, "Well, there's a situation where slowing things down could have been good." Um, but to come to your next point, which I think is also a critical point, and that is that this is hard. System two is harder than system one. And as human beings, we seek efficiency. It's, you know, it's not like any of us have got masses of time in the day that, you know, we, we can spend having these painstaking, deliberate, rigorous logical arguments. But what I would say to that is that all of these arguments that we have, just about, it's like, do you think the Brexit argument was fast talking? We didn't... We took three years, and we still haven't solved it. We went round and round and round. This whole lockdown thing, I'm not seeing us progressing rapidly towards solutions using the fast talking idea. Even the housework. You know how long my household has been discussing the dishwasher for?So, don't underestimate how long and how energy-sapping these repetitive conversations can be. And sometimes, it actually takes less energy to invoke system two, talk slowly and rigorously-

   19. CWChris Williamson48:59

       (clears throat)

   20. THTim Harkness48:59

       ... and hopefully make some actual progress.

   21. CWChris Williamson49:01

       For the mental model fans out there, that is direction over speed incarnate for you.

   22. THTim Harkness49:07

       Okay.

   23. CWChris Williamson49:07

       If you are moving in precisely the correct direction, it doesn't-

   24. THTim Harkness49:11

       Nice.

   25. CWChris Williamson49:11

       ... matter how fast or how slow, you know that you are making small amounts of progress-

   26. THTim Harkness49:16

       Okay. Okay.

   27. CWChris Williamson49:17

       ... every single day. Whereas, if you focus on speed as opposed to direction, which is the equivalent of efficiency over effectiveness, if you focus on speed, you can be going at 100 miles an hour in exactly the wrong direction-

   28. THTim Harkness49:30

       Okay.

   29. CWChris Williamson49:30

       ... and then turn around and go, "Ah, shit, I've done all of this work, and actually my goal is now further away from me."

   30. THTim Harkness49:37

       Okay. Okay.
5. 1:00:00 – 1:03:19

   Yes. …

   1. CWChris Williamson1:00:00

   2. THTim Harkness1:00:00

      Yes.

   3. CWChris Williamson1:00:00

      Like if you go into the local shops, it makes no difference.

   4. THTim Harkness1:00:03

      Yes.

   5. CWChris Williamson1:00:03

      However, there's gradations of usefulness. And your value, I would argue, probably is exponential, not logarithmic. It actually goes like this, and as you become-

   6. THTim Harkness1:00:13

      Mm-hmm.

   7. CWChris Williamson1:00:14

      ... as you're the top 5% in the world to the top 2% in the world-

   8. THTim Harkness1:00:19

      Mm-hmm.

   9. CWChris Williamson1:00:19

      ... to the top half a percent in the world at having conversations and at being able to say the things that are inside of your head and articulate your words-

   10. THTim Harkness1:00:26

       Yes. Yes.

   11. CWChris Williamson1:00:26

       ... your competitive advantage, your ability to enact change, to convince others, to be a, a force for, hopefully good, in this world-

   12. THTim Harkness1:00:36

       Yeah, yeah.

   13. CWChris Williamson1:00:36

       ... inc- is so much further ahead. Like, the difference between Joe Rogan as a podcaster and the next-best podcaster is everything.... you know?

   14. THTim Harkness1:00:47

       Yeah.

   15. CWChris Williamson1:00:47

       The difference between me now and me two and a half years ago when I started this show is everything.

   16. THTim Harkness1:00:53

       Okay. Yeah.

   17. CWChris Williamson1:00:53

       It is universes apart-

   18. THTim Harkness1:00:56

       Yeah, yeah.

   19. CWChris Williamson1:00:56

       ... in a way that... And I've still got t- tons of ways to go, but like I- I think that's a- a nice way to look at it, that people should be working to be rigorous. We've used the word rigor a lot, and I think that's a really cool way to sort of talk about-

   20. THTim Harkness1:01:09

       Yeah.

   21. CWChris Williamson1:01:09

       ... conversations that-

   22. THTim Harkness1:01:11

       Yeah.

   23. CWChris Williamson1:01:11

       ... you should be precise, you should be rigorous with what you say, you should try and strive to be the best conversationalist that you can-

   24. THTim Harkness1:01:16

       Yes.

   25. CWChris Williamson1:01:17

       ... uh, because that's how you compound wisdom, right? That's how everything gets built up.

   26. THTim Harkness1:01:21

       Yes. Yes. Yes, and as you say, it's worth the effort.

   27. CWChris Williamson1:01:27

       Well, hopefully some people are going to go away from this and be better conversationalists. If they want to pick up Ten Rules for Talking, it will be linked in the show notes below. Feel free to follow that link onto Amazon and grab it on there. Also, you'll be supporting this podcast at no extra cost to yourself. Any other stuff that you want to plug, Tim? Any other stuff people should go check out?

   28. THTim Harkness1:01:46

       No. I- I- I'll leave it at that. (laughs)

   29. CWChris Williamson1:01:49

       (laughs) That's... Hey, that's...

   30. THTim Harkness1:01:50

       Uh, yeah, y- you kind of put me on the spot there, um...

Episode duration: 1:03:20