An Expert's Guide To Mastering Difficult Conversations | Tim Harkness | Modern Wisdom Podcast 198

Tim Harkness 0:00 When you're talking, you need to be able to achieve two things. The one thing you need to be able to do is you need to be able to achieve safety, and that is that basically people feel respected, they feel that they are being respected, and they feel that their needs are being respected. That's the one thing that has got to happen. And if that doesn't happen, this conversation is not going to work as well at all. (whooshing sound)

Chris Williamson 0:22 I'm joined by Tim Harkness. Tim, welcome to the show.

Tim Harkness 0:25 Thank you very much, Chris. Nice to be here.

Chris Williamson 0:27 Pleasure to have you here. An Expert's Guide to Mastering Difficult Conversations. Has there ever been a more appropriate time-

Tim Harkness 0:35 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 0:35 ... to work out how to have difficult conversations than right now?

Tim Harkness 0:39 You know, I'd, I wrote the book and just th- there's one line in the book that refers to the, the pandemic. A- and it's the last m- it's the last revision that was made to the, the, the manuscript. And I thought to myself as the lockdown started, "Is the book relevant still?" Because it just seemed that we had this all-encompassing issue that we all needed to pay attention to. Um, and then, of course, you know, the, the complexity of the lockdown emerged and then the Black Lives Matter protest began as well, and suddenly I thought to myself, actually, yes, uh, you know, I, I think this notion... And, and, you know, not even to make a claim for my book, but just to make a claim for talking, just to make a claim for communication, I think this is something that we need globally. And yeah, absolutely, it's been reinforced in the last couple of months.

Chris Williamson 1:32 You, uh, you had a little bit of divination, clairvoyant foresight perhaps there about just how much it was needed.

Tim Harkness 1:39 (laughs) Well, you know, I, I mean, obviously we, we've been dealing with Brexit for years, you know, and, and, uh, I, I think people have been... Th- th- there's this growing economic inequality that, that I think has, has been a, a concern for people, um, and, and that's just at the political level, you know. And, and then at the, at the personal level or the professional level, I mean, one of the things that the lockdown has thrown up has been, um, what... I, I read this book and, and it calls it domestic bargaining, and it, it's basically who does the vacuuming.

Chris Williamson 2:10 (laughs)

Tim Harkness 2:10 But, you know... (laughs) Th- there's this whole kind of, um, uh, field of study around it. Uh-

Chris Williamson 2:18 Oh, that's a body of work now.

Tim Harkness 2:20 Oh, yes, yes, absolutely. And, and, you know, the, the thing is, I mean, just think how much it affects all of us. Well, I don't know if it affects you, but it certainly affects me.

Chris Williamson 2:28 Me and my housemate, me, me and my housemate have got every other Thursday we get the Marigold yellow gloves on and-

Tim Harkness 2:36 Right.

Chris Williamson 2:36 ... we throw the tunes on and he does the-

Tim Harkness 2:39 Okay.

Chris Williamson 2:39 ... he does the bathroom and living room and I do the-

Tim Harkness 2:41 Great.

Chris Williamson 2:41 ... I do the kitchen and downstairs and then it's done and that's it once every two weeks.

Tim Harkness 2:45 Okay, so you go for straight equality. That, that, that's your... It's like-

Chris Williamson 2:48 Equal-

Tim Harkness 2:48 ... absolutely-

Chris Williamson 2:49 ... equality of outcome and equality of opportunity. Yeah, equal access-

Tim Harkness 2:52 Okay.

Chris Williamson 2:52 ... to the Hoover, equal access-

Tim Harkness 2:53 Right. (laughs)

Chris Williamson 2:54 ... to the, to the (laughs) -

Tim Harkness 2:55 Okay.

Chris Williamson 2:55 ... to the brush.

Tim Harkness 2:55 Yeah. So, so that's your method and that's what works. It's not everybody goes with that, by the way. You know, there, there's some more complex discussions-

Chris Williamson 3:02 (laughs)

Tim Harkness 3:02 ... um, that, that can emerge.

Chris Williamson 3:05 (laughs) I want to know if you're listening and you've got a very convoluted way that you and the people that you live with have, um, partitioned the housework throughout lockdown, I want you to tell me what the most complicated ways are that that's happened 'cause-

Tim Harkness 3:19 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 3:19 ... this just sounds... I found out, um, my friend's, uh, girlfriend has a very complex way of keeping the house clean.

Tim Harkness 3:29 Nice.

Chris Williamson 3:30 Apparently, there's, there's, uh, a number of books that are all s- systematic programs of how you clean your house. It's like-

Tim Harkness 3:38 Okay.

Chris Williamson 3:38 ... the... If you took, uh, David Allen's Getting Things Done framework for productivity but applied-

Tim Harkness 3:44 Nice.

Chris Williamson 3:44 ... it to housework and-

Tim Harkness 3:46 Yes.

Chris Williamson 3:46 ... it's, it's so sophisticated.

Tim Harkness 3:48 She's got it.

Chris Williamson 3:48 Bro, I was just like, there's, there's just a underworld that I totally didn't realize-

Tim Harkness 3:53 Yes.

Chris Williamson 3:53 ... and I was just living in this different, different place. Okay, so we've, we've kind of got ourselves framed here that we do need to have conversations and I think at-

Tim Harkness 4:01 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 4:02 ... the moment it's precisely the things that we need to talk about that we're struggling to talk about. We have quite a lot of-

Tim Harkness 4:07 Yes.

Chris Williamson 4:07 ... performative communication going on at the moment. It's difficult to work out who the bad actors are and who the ones that are just saying something out of fear or, um, signaling or any one of a number of different things.

Tim Harkness 4:21 Sure. Sure.

Chris Williamson 4:21 So high, high level, what is the purpose of communication and why do we need to learn how to talk?

Tim Harkness 4:27 Yeah, well, you know, the, that's rule one, is agree what you're talking for. So, you know, that, that question, what is the purpose of communication, we, we have different objectives and we run into problems when two people each have their own agenda in a conversation. It's much easier when we both want the same thing. So, you know, ju- just to list some objectives, one kind of conversation is a listening conversation. So, you know, I, I get home at the end of the day and, and I say to my partner, "Honey, how was your day?" And that's a pure listening conversation because my partner knows about her day and I don't. So, you know, that, that's kind of point number one is it's just about information transfer. On the other hand, if, if you're a dentist and I, you know, come and visit you, you've got the information, I don't, and I just want to listen. So that's one kind of conversation, but you can run into problems because the one problem could be I don't realize what I don't know. The second kind of problem is when my ego gets involved and you start telling me there's some kind of issue with my teeth and, and I go, "Well, you're telling me I don't know how to look after my teeth." And then I stop listening because there's this kind of ego problem that, that's been invoked. So that's the one kind of conversation is a listening conversation. Um, you get another kind of conversation, which is an emotional conversation, where, uh, you know, you and I meet up and, and you say to me, you know, "How's it going?" And I say, you know, "I've been having a tough time." And I start to share my emotions with you.... and an emotional conversation has all the characteristics of a listening conversation, but it's got one more, and that is that if we're having a listening conversation, at some point when I'm listening, I can go, "Okay. No. I got it. I understand."

Chris Williamson 6:15 Mm-hmm.

Tim Harkness 6:16 Which obviously you can't do in an emotional conversation. You know that there's no point-

Chris Williamson 6:19 All right, mate, you're a bit sad.

Tim Harkness 6:20 (laughs) That's it.

Chris Williamson 6:21 I get it. I get it.

Tim Harkness 6:22 I know. I know. (laughs)

Chris Williamson 6:24 Oh, get over it.

Tim Harkness 6:25 That doesn't work. Um, so you know, that, that's another kind of conversation. There's a third kind of conversation, which is a, a, um, a values conversation, um, where we, we evaluate things. Um, was this a good football match or not? Um, you know, is, is, um, is immigration genuinely a problem? Uh, Black lives matter. Th- that's a values conversation. It's a, it's a conversation about what is important to us. Um, and

Tim Harkness 6:55 then once you've had the values conversation, things start to get... again, you can add a, a level of complexity on top of that, and you can start to have a fairness conversation, which is, what's fair? So even at the, the, the personal level, these are crucial conversations that we have. Now, you know, in your housework system, you've got it totally fair because you've got complete equality, you know, which is you, you dedicate the same amount of effort and the same amount of time, and there are no problems there, so you've got it worked out. But not everybody uses equality as a basis for fairness. Some people use deserve, which is, "I had a really tough day. I deserve some time off." Once you start introducing that element or once you start introducing the element of... 'cause that could be deserve. "I had a really tough day. You know, I had a very stressful meeting, only lasted for 30 minutes, but it was so stressful that I can't vacuum." You know? And, you know, I promise you that line has been used. (laughs)

Chris Williamson 7:58 (laughs) Yeah. I'm gonna try that next Thursday-

Tim Harkness 8:01 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 8:01 ... when it's my turn. "May I please start this meeting?"

Tim Harkness 8:04 (laughs) Yeah.

Chris Williamson 8:04 But he knows that I'm locked in the house. He knows that that's bullshit-

Tim Harkness 8:07 Right. Right.

Chris Williamson 8:07 ... from me. Yeah.

Tim Harkness 8:07 (laughs) Well, you could've had a tough podcast, you know. You never know. May- may- maybe the guy was no good. Um, so, so that's another complicating element. And a, and a third complicating element is, um, that sometimes fairness is about what we need. Um, and, you know, th- this is where, to be frank, some of the, um, some of the, the, the household bargaining, uh, arguments in... well, I'm supposed to say negotiations, negotiations in our house crop up is that we may have different needs in terms of how, how clean we need the carpet to be. And so, so on, on that basis, if I don't need the carpet to be quite as clean as what my partner needs it to be, then why should we have equal effort in terms of, uh, achieving something that we don't equally need? Um, so, you know, and, and, and, I mean, obviously... a- and not to take anything away from these household bargaining conversations because they're important and we all have to do them. So th- this is a major issue.

Chris Williamson 9:06 Tim, if the household bargaining people take error with this podcast, given the last 200 episodes that we've put out, I've... we've had a porn star on here, we've had-

Tim Harkness 9:15 Okay.

Chris Williamson 9:16 ... we've had, you know... if that's the thing-

Tim Harkness 9:18 All right. (laughs)

Chris Williamson 9:18 ... that makes people sit up and go, "You know, do you know what it is? That new... Chris had this South African fellow, and he was-"

Tim Harkness 9:24 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 9:24 "... badmouthing the way that people organize the housekeeping." If that's an issue-

Tim Harkness 9:28 (laughs) It went too far.

Chris Williamson 9:29 I'll be surprised, yeah.

Tim Harkness 9:30 All right. (laughs)

Chris Williamson 9:30 You can talk about porn, but don't you fucking talk-

Tim Harkness 9:33 Yes.

Chris Williamson 9:33 ... about the vacuuming.

Tim Harkness 9:34 Well, (laughs) yeah, you never know, you know.

Chris Williamson 9:37 (laughs)

Tim Harkness 9:37 I, I wouldn't be surprised.

Chris Williamson 9:39 Yeah.

Tim Harkness 9:39 But, but, you know, having said that, then these same things apply to our professional conversations and our political conversations, that in terms of something like immigration, what's fair? Um, how do we distribute what people need compared to what people deserve compared to equality? Or in terms of, you know, distribution of wealth, you know, we... e- everybody's talking about the 1% at the moment and how they're, you know, so much richer than they used to be or the fact that CEOs now can earn 200 times as much as a, a base level employer in their, in their, um, employee in, in their organization. So, you know, that, that, that's another kind of conversation, is just a fairness conversation. And then another kind of conversation is a prediction conversation, and this is that you and I want the same thing, but we disagree about the best course of action to achieve it. So to me, in some ways, the Brexit conversation is a prediction conversation 'cause we all want the same thing. We all want a happy country, we all want people to have jobs, we all want community, um, you know, we all want healthy people and so on, but we've just got different ideas about what's going to deliver that. And I think that the prediction kind of conversation, it's important to recognize because often we're not actually that different 'cause we do actually want the same thing. It's more like a technical thing of, well, how do we achieve that? So,

Tim Harkness 11:09 you know, those are some conversations, and then the kind of master conversation, and this is the one that I, I really want to champion, is the conversation where we talk about talking. So, you know, this is what you and I are doing now, we're having a conversation about conversations. And this is an important conversation, I think, for everybody. When you get stuck in one of the previous five conversations, you need to be able to bail out of that conversation, going, "Hang on. Wait, wait, wait. This isn't working. Let's start talking about talking. Let's start talking about this conversation." And really, that's what the book is designed to do, is kind of equip people with the skills to, to have that conversation where you're talking about talking.

Chris Williamson 11:51 But each of those different categories of conversation that you've just come up with there-

Tim Harkness 11:56 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 11:56 ... do they require a different mindset, a different skill set?

Tim Harkness 12:00 Yeah. A- and, and, you know, that, that, that's... actually, just today, it's an article I've been working on is which of the rules apply particularly to those different kinds of conversations.... um, so you know, some of the rules... So broadly, when, when you're talking, you need to be able to achieve two things. The one thing you need to be able to do is you need to be able to achieve safety, and that is that basically people feel respected, they feel that they are being respected, and they feel that their needs are being respected. That's the one thing that has got to happen, and if that doesn't happen, this conversation is not going to work as well, at all. The second thing that you've got to be able to achieve is that there's got to be some kind of, um, journey towards the truth. There's got to be some kind of shared understanding of the world, and the conversation's got to be effective, and the skills that you use for each of those... Now, a conversation cannot be safe unless it's effective. You know, you and I can have all the respect we like for each other, and, you know, we have in, in the world for each other, but if we see the world in completely different ways... You know, if you think the world is round, and I think the world is flat, unless we've made some sort of progress to getting closer to a shared understanding of the world, w- we've been wasting our time. And it's unlikely that we're going to be able to maintain full respect for each other given that we've got such a, a kind of significantly different view of the world. But at the same time, we can't have an effective conversation unless it's a safe conversation. So, we can't start bombing each other with facts and logic and, you know, um, uh, arguments unless we actually both feel respected and, and, um, you know, kind of honored by the other person.

Chris Williamson 13:44 Yeah, it starts... It devolves into, um, either a debate, which is the sort of formal version of a conversation which you identify in the book, or, uh-

Tim Harkness 13:52 Yep.

Chris Williamson 13:52 ... I guess, a s- a slanging match, which I, I, I don't know if that technically e- e- exists in the book.

Tim Harkness 13:57 (laughs) .

Chris Williamson 13:57 Um, but yeah, y-

Tim Harkness 13:58 But a very real thing.

Chris Williamson 14:00 Oh, oh, absolutely. Yeah, that's the, the unspoken type of conversation that, that's, uh, not in there. Yeah, it's, um, those two things, the effectiveness/kind of the namaste, one plus one equals three in this conversation, we both go away with more wisdom than we came in with it-

Tim Harkness 14:16 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 14:17 ... uh, the effectiveness/truth, and the safety.

Tim Harkness 14:21 Yes.

Chris Williamson 14:22 I am seeing almost every conversation on the internet qualify neither of those-

Tim Harkness 14:30 Yes, yes.

Chris Williamson 14:30 ... of those characteristics.

Tim Harkness 14:31 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 14:32 Like people are going out of their way to make conversations as unsafe as possible-

Tim Harkness 14:37 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 14:37 ... to try and show as little respect. Y- you talk about the retort and the soundbite in the book as well, and both of those are really fascinating, the way that a retort is t- uh, a put-down designed to almost interrupt the flow of a conversation.

Tim Harkness 14:54 Yep.

Chris Williamson 14:54 Um, and that the one safety net that you used to have in a flowing conversation-

Tim Harkness 15:01 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 15:02 ... was that you needed to have a particular degree of spontaneous, um, uh, creativity in order to be able to do-

Tim Harkness 15:13 Yeah. Yeah.

Chris Williamson 15:13 ... a (snaps fingers) you know, a zinger, the knee- the old knee slapper-

Tim Harkness 15:15 Yes, yes.

Chris Williamson 15:15 ... in a debate. Like you have to-

Tim Harkness 15:17 (laughs) .

Chris Williamson 15:17 Whereas now that a lot of our conversations are mediated by the internet, you got five minutes.

Tim Harkness 15:22 That's it. Yeah.

Chris Williamson 15:22 You can ask your mate what he thinks, "This guy just said that, that my podcast's shit. What can I... What can I call?"

Tim Harkness 15:28 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 15:28 "Oh, call, call him bald. Call him bald. Yeah, he's bald." You know, like you-

Tim Harkness 15:31 That's a good one. Yeah, yeah.

Chris Williamson 15:32 So, you can kind of do this.

Tim Harkness 15:35 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 15:36 And, um, yeah, it seems like everything at the moment is gearing us as a society, as a community toward having worse types of conversations.

Tim Harkness 15:47 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 15:47 And I really do feel so blessed to f- find long-form conversations enjoyable, because if I didn't, I worry, 'cause I listen to-

Tim Harkness 15:58 Fast.

Chris Williamson 15:58 ... I consume a lot of content, Joe Rogan-

Tim Harkness 16:01 Okay.

Chris Williamson 16:01 ... Sam Harris, Ben Shapiro-

Tim Harkness 16:02 Fast, fast.

Chris Williamson 16:03 ... et cetera, et cetera.

Tim Harkness 16:04 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 16:04 If I didn't enjoy that-

Tim Harkness 16:06 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 16:06 ... the only things that I would be consuming are like the 15-second Instagram story-

Tim Harkness 16:11 Okay, okay.

Chris Williamson 16:11 ... that... You know, there is, to, to me, hopefully for the listeners as well, these sorts of conversations-

Tim Harkness 16:16 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 16:16 ... are like they're the tonics, you know, that are calming. They're the antidote to the venom in a way-

Tim Harkness 16:22 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 16:22 ... that people are seeing, look, yes, it's slower. Yes, it's more pedestrian. Yes, you have to do a little bit of work to actually get some of the... But that's the point. It's like a mental gymnasium for yourself, right? As opposed to it just being, look at this 280-character put-down-

Tim Harkness 16:40 Mm. Mm.

Chris Williamson 16:40 ... that's filled with emojis and like has a GIF attached to it. Like that's not... Y- you understand what I mean? Like when that's the vast majority-

Tim Harkness 16:47 Yeah, th-

Chris Williamson 16:47 ... of the time, the, the, the communication-

Tim Harkness 16:49 But that's very interesting, and, and I hadn't thought of that, you know. I, I hadn't thought of the, the difference between the long form and the, you know, the tweet or something like that. But yeah, that makes sense, um.

Chris Williamson 17:01 I think being... just being around that a lot of the time, especially during lockdown, people maybe haven't had a lot of people to talk to.

Tim Harkness 17:08 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 17:09 You... Maybe living on your own or living with-

Tim Harkness 17:12 Yeah, yeah.

Chris Williamson 17:12 ... one other person, you don't have tons of people to talk to, so-

Tim Harkness 17:15 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 17:15 ... I, I think I've, I've talked more to podcast guests than I have to anybody else.

Tim Harkness 17:22 Right, right, yeah.

Chris Williamson 17:23 Um, or, or in an equivalent way, I've probably listened to Ben Shapiro-

Tim Harkness 17:27 Right.

Chris Williamson 17:27 ... more than I've listened to any other person, and-

Tim Harkness 17:30 Okay, uh.

Chris Williamson 17:31 What, what does that do to our-

Tim Harkness 17:34 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 17:34 ... ability to understand how to communicate, right? Because really, there's no... there's not a whole lot of difference between me listening to Ben in my ears, you know, that's all I'm going around doing the housework-

Tim Harkness 17:44 Yes, yes.

Chris Williamson 17:44 ... doing whatever-

Tim Harkness 17:45 Yeah, yeah.

Chris Williamson 17:45 ... um, and a listening conversation where I don't ever speak.

Tim Harkness 17:49 Yes. Yes, yes.

Chris Williamson 17:51 You know what I mean? So, what does that do to us and how does that... ho- how can that be the antithesis to-

Tim Harkness 17:57 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 17:57 ... to this short-form stuff? I think that's...

Tim Harkness 18:00 Yeah, and you know, I, I really like that idea because I, I think, you know... I think sometimes we can solve problems by reasoning our way through them. In other wo- other times, we can solve problems just by exposing ourselves to different things, you know, and what you're saying is let's just expose ourselves to more long form.... and in that, we solve many of the problems that have emerged, you know, because of the fast pace of life and technology and, and, you know, the, this intermittent, uh, communication that... and written communication also. You know, with... And, and I, I often think to myself, you know, one of, one of the stories that amazes me is, um, you know, being South African, um, one of, one of the key events in South African history was the Anglo-Zulu War, um, in 1879, um, and mainly the Battle of Isandlwana. And then what's famous in this country is the Battle of Rorke's Drift. And, you know, in, in a previous generation, they used to show the movie, uh, I think it was called Zulu, every Christmas, which was the story of the battle. You know, this was just a tradition. Everybody would sit down and watch this movie again and again and again. And the, um, the, the battle culminated in a series of negotiations, and you had the British party, who were literate, you know, they came from a literate society, and the Zulu negotia- negotiators were illiterate. They, they had no writing. What they did have, though, was the ability to memorize the entire conversation from a single listening.

Chris Williamson 19:42 Wow.

Tim Harkness 19:43 So, they would go along, they would listen to a five-hour conversation, and they'd go back to the king, and they'd be able to recite it word for word. And, you know, you've got this... So, this is a society that, that at that point, and, and it's 150 years ago, had not been exposed to technology, but had developed this incredible spoken culture as a way of adapting for the technology, you know, that was letters and notes and, and, you know, shorthand and, and whatever else. And, uh, it is something I'm a little aware of, I, I think having come from growing up in an African country, is I do think sometimes there, th- there's a, there's a tradition of conversation, um, that, that is quite strong.

Chris Williamson 20:34 Still some echoes of that?

Tim Harkness 20:36 I, I think so. You know, and, and that's not to say it doesn't exist here, you know, in pubs and, and areas where people here get together and just talk, um, you know. And yeah, if, if podcasts and long-form communications are emerging as another environment where people can do something that I think is natural to us, you know, what, what really is better than just sitting and talking with other people? Um-

Chris Williamson 21:04 Man, it, it's... I spend h- hundreds of hours every year doing it for-

Tim Harkness 21:10 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 21:10 ... the sheer joy of, of it, and I have a, a piece of advice the listeners will know. Um, once a week, every week for 30 minutes at least, you need to sit down with a friend and have a conversation about something that both of you are interested in. You leave your phones outside of your room, and you will leave that room feeling like you've just gotten through therapy or a cool gym session or-

Tim Harkness 21:30 Absolutely.

Chris Williamson 21:30 ... a sauna.

Tim Harkness 21:30 Yeah, yeah.

Chris Williamson 21:31 There is something incredibly therapeutic about having-

Tim Harkness 21:33 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 21:33 ... a conversation where it's you and another person without distractions-

Tim Harkness 21:38 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 21:38 ... holding each other to-

Tim Harkness 21:39 Yeah, yeah.

Chris Williamson 21:39 ... intellectual rigor, trying to be as precise-

Tim Harkness 21:42 Right, okay.

Chris Williamson 21:42 ... as possible with your speech.

Tim Harkness 21:43 Yeah, yeah. Right, yeah.

Chris Williamson 21:45 "Uh, oh, hang on, you've just said this thing, but two seconds ago you said that thing. I don't think those two things quite marry up." Being genuinely interested-

Tim Harkness 21:51 Yes.

Chris Williamson 21:51 ... in what the other person has to say. And so much-

Tim Harkness 21:53 Yes.

Chris Williamson 21:53 ... of that stuff, you know, I, I didn't have a foresight for Ten Rules for Talking, your new book, but there's a lot of that which marries up, and when you see, uh-

Tim Harkness 22:01 Yes.

Chris Williamson 22:01 ... someone who's done the research and the literature, when your experience of the world matches what exists in the, the literature, it kind of-

Tim Harkness 22:10 Yes.

Chris Williamson 22:11 ... it really reinforces it in a nice way.

Tim Harkness 22:13 Yeah, yeah.

Chris Williamson 22:14 Um, a lot of people listening want to have better conversations. What are-

Tim Harkness 22:18 Yes.

Chris Williamson 22:18 ... the most common errors you see people making when conversing?

Tim Harkness 22:24 Uh, well, I, I think, I, I think you... There are two ways of looking at that. The, the one way of looking at it is you can say, what kinds of, what kinds of... what conversation styles do people have? So, the one way you could break it down is you could say some people tend to escalate. Um, so I, I, I think an example of this is someone like Piers Morgan.

Chris Williamson 22:48 (laughs)

Tim Harkness 22:48 Now, you know, Piers, I agree with him strongly on some issues, and I disagree with him strongly on, on some issues as well-

Chris Williamson 22:55 Yeah, you're never-

Tim Harkness 22:55 ... which I think is-

Chris Williamson 22:55 ... you're never moderate on Piers, are you?

Tim Harkness 22:57 (laughs) Yeah.

Chris Williamson 22:58 (laughs) It's never moderate. It's always like-

Tim Harkness 23:00 Yes.

Chris Williamson 23:00 ... yes or no.

Tim Harkness 23:01 Yes, but at least it's mixed, you know? At least I don't disagree with him on everything and can't all agree with him on everything. Um, but as you say, you're not moderate, and the reason why is that he's not moderate. He escalates. He makes a big deal out of things, and, and he tends to bring emotion into the, um, in, into the topic. He sees the world in quite a black and white sort of way. And, um, so I, I, I think that's, that's an escalator, and escalators can be useful sometimes. You know, if, um, if we're having a picnic, and, um, you know, there, there's a beautiful sunset and there are, you know, butterflies flying around, in a way, we want to be escalating this. We want to be going, "Wow, this is fantastic." You know, we're having a wonderful time. This is brilliant. On the other hand, if we're having a, a political argument, or if, you know, we... if me and a mate are sitting in a room having a conversation and I go, "No, I, I don't think you're being consistent there," what I don't want to do is escalate, because I've picked up that he's being inconsistent. I don't then want to go, "You know what? You're inconsistent, you're illogical. You're illogical because you lack intelligence, and you lack intelligence because you have no education and you're not a good person," and blah, blah, blah, and that would be an escalation. And, you know, it's, it's something that we're all too prone to. So, so that's, you know, that, that notion number one, is the idea of escalation, and, and it can, it can be a good thing, but it can be inappropriate as well.

Chris Williamson 24:27 There's a lot there that people need to step into their own programming with regards to their desire to want to win a conversation.

Tim Harkness 24:36 Yeah, yeah.

Chris Williamson 24:37 Because inevitably, by making the other person look dumb, feel silly, embarrassed, whatever it might be, it's like, "Yes, points for me." Like, "That's Chris, one up on the pedestal, and Jonathan, one down on the pedestal." You know?

Tim Harkness 24:52 Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Chris Williamson 24:54 Uh-

Tim Harkness 24:54 And, you know, that, that comes back to rule one, which is agree what you're talking for. And if I'm going into a conversation with the aim of winning the conversation or taking the other person down a peg, um, well, in some ways, fine if that's your genuine objective, but I, I think the, the problem more likely is people don't realize that that's what they're pursuing, and it's not what they really want. Um, so absolutely, you know, I'm, I'm not looking to take... Well, it... I think most of the time, it's not an explicit aim, and it, and it's not the best aim in terms of achieving-

Chris Williamson 25:28 It's when it, it's when it creeps in. I think even if you asked someone-

Tim Harkness 25:31 Yes.

Chris Williamson 25:31 ... "Did you mean to have an adversarial conversation there where you made the other person feel silly?"

Tim Harkness 25:35 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 25:35 In retrospect or beforehand, no.

Tim Harkness 25:39 Yes.

Chris Williamson 25:39 But they just get caught up. The signaling, there's that girl-

Tim Harkness 25:42 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 25:42 ... over the far side looking, or there's that person at the table who I want to look-

Tim Harkness 25:47 Yes.

Chris Williamson 25:47 The boss is watching at the table, and I want to look like I'm real capable-

Tim Harkness 25:51 Yes, yes.

Chris Williamson 25:51 ... or whatever it might be.

Tim Harkness 25:52 That's it.

Chris Williamson 25:52 Uh, oh, okay, so that was the first category, escalation.

Tim Harkness 25:54 Yes. Yes. Second category, storytellers. So you, you get some people who, um, who communicate their view of the world through stories, and I think a great example of this is Boris Johnson, that he's got this, um, this real knack for metaphor, and he... You know, when he talks about the coronavirus as an invisible mugger, he says, "We're going to send it packing." When he was critical of, um, Theresa May's Brexit negotiations by saying, "We... There's a white flag fluttering as we walk into the meeting room." You know, these are very vivid, um, uh, and, and plausible stories that he tells, and obviously sometimes stories are effective. You know, as human beings we relate to stories, and, and they're a good way of persuading us sometimes. But then again, there's a, there's a limitation to them in, in that they lack, uh, a real kind of level of, um, precision and accuracy. So it... The, the problem with a story is that a story's not verifiable. You know, just so... So I'm f- I'm flying the white flag. Well, what on earth does that mean?

Chris Williamson 27:03 (laughs) Yeah.

Tim Harkness 27:04 You know, how, how, how, how would we measure... You know, how do you measure whether we-

Chris Williamson 27:09 How much flag there is?

Tim Harkness 27:10 Exactly.

Chris Williamson 27:10 Is it white? Is it slightly cream?

Tim Harkness 27:13 Yeah, that, that's the thing, you know. There's just no way to tell, and when there's no way to tell, we've limited our potential to agree, because as you say, a conversation is about trying to find out the truth. It's trying to find out how the world really is. So what I should be doing in a conversation, well, what we should be doing in a conversation, is we're both trying to work out a fact about the world. I'm not trying to persuade you of my worldview, and you're not trying to persuade me of your worldview. We're both trying to journey towards an improved understanding of how the world can be, and that's ultimately how we persuade, is by perceiving what is real. And storytellers compromise on that potential. Um, and then, you know, just because PMQs is quite interesting at the moment, you've got what I would call an analyst. So you've got Keir Starmer, who is quite strong on the rigor, on the facts, on the detail, on the precision, and, um, and he interacts with... So that you've got an analyst interacting with a storyteller, and it kind of makes for quite good fireworks because you've got these two very different conversational approaches. Now, it does mean that they're really just scoring points off each other. You know, the potential for genuine collaboration and the potential for actual agreement is fairly low because, you know, you've got two such different approaches, and, and, you know, I, I think we all kind of relate to analysts. You know, if someone's building a bridge or an airplane, I want an analyst.

Chris Williamson 28:46 Mm-hmm.

Tim Harkness 28:46 And, you know, to be perfectly honest-

Chris Williamson 28:47 I don't want Boris Johnson.

Tim Harkness 28:49 No, I don't want a storyteller, you know. I don't want to, "Oh, these wings look fantastic."

Chris Williamson 28:53 (laughs)

Tim Harkness 28:53 You know, "They are going to lift you up on the wind."

Chris Williamson 28:55 Yeah.

Tim Harkness 28:55 You know, I'm not wanting that kind of thing. I'm wanting the analyst, and to be perfectly honest, you know, when it comes to an economic policy, I'm wanting an analyst as well. Um, but being an analyst is not enough because part of operating in a democracy is that we need to be bound together, you know. We need to have a shared identity. We need to have some s- some sense of a, a collective narrative that is meaningful and important for all of us, and that's where the storytellers come in, is that they can be very good at doing that. So, you know, once again, I think the analyst, there's definite strengths, but then it, it's not the only solution.

Chris Williamson 29:33 It's not super persuasive either, is it? You know, the fact that Boris Johnson won the most recent general election by a landslide as a storyteller, what does that tell you?

Tim Harkness 29:42 That's- (laughs)

Chris Williamson 29:42 It tells you that people are much more persuaded by stories than they are by facts. If, if facts were what persuaded most people, then the economists would run the world.

Tim Harkness 29:52 Yes.

Chris Williamson 29:52 It would just be the people that were able to... That macro this and the standard deviation is actually inside the interquartile range-

Tim Harkness 29:59 That's it, yeah.

Chris Williamson 29:59 ... and blah, blah.

Tim Harkness 30:00 Yes, yes, yes.

Chris Williamson 30:00 Like, so none of that. It's not about that.

Tim Harkness 30:03 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 30:03 I love the idea of storytelling increasing the imprecision within the conversation-

Tim Harkness 30:11 Yes.

Chris Williamson 30:11 ... with... As a tool, almost as a tool, right? And I like the... Thinking about in myself sometimes, I, only just realizing it now, use analogy-... as a way to escape being precise with what I'm saying.

Tim Harkness 30:32 Yeah, yeah.

Chris Williamson 30:32 Because, as you say, as soon as you use an analogy, every- the rules of the game are completely out the window. You're not- you're no longer talking about the situation.

Tim Harkness 30:41 The thing-

Chris Williamson 30:41 It's an analogous situation by definition.

Tim Harkness 30:43 Absolutely, absolutely, yeah.

Chris Williamson 30:45 Um, so yeah.

Tim Harkness 30:46 That, that, that's a big one.

Chris Williamson 30:47 Checking, checking yourself about-

Tim Harkness 30:49 Yes.

Chris Williamson 30:50 ... "Hang on, am I using this to enhance the conversation and add flare-

Tim Harkness 30:54 Yes.

Chris Williamson 30:54 ... and, and sort of color?"

Tim Harkness 30:56 Yes.

Chris Williamson 30:56 "Or am I doing it to hide myself from, or hide away from a deficiency in rigor and precision about how I'm actually putting this topic across?" Those, those are really, really cool.

Tim Harkness 31:10 Yep. Yes.

Chris Williamson 31:10 Uh, so we, we got that. Can we, can we try and help the people listening self-diagnose the kind of conversationalists that they are? They're thinking-

Tim Harkness 31:19 Uh-

Chris Williamson 31:19 ... "This sounds, this sounds, this sounds good, but I don't know. Am I this person or am I-

Tim Harkness 31:23 Yes.

Chris Williamson 31:23 ... that person?"

Tim Harkness 31:24 Yes. You know, I'd, I'd add one more just to, to fill out the set. So there are four kinds of con- conversationalists. So, so we've got the, we've got the, the storyteller, we've got the escalator, um, we've got the analyst, and one more is what I'd say is the safety firster. And the safety firster is the person who's prepared to compromise on their own point of view or on their own needs in order to stop the conversation getting heated or breaking down. So there comes a point where, you know, you and I, we're ha- having an argument, you say, "It's not gonna rain tomorrow." I say, "It is gonna rain tomorrow." Things get a little bit heated, and I go, "No, I, you know, I think it's probably not gonna rain tomorrow. I, I, I agree with you, you know, that that's okay." And I, I kind of bail out of, of the conversation. Um, so, so I think those are the four kinds, and if, if I was an escalator, the sort of red flags to look out for are, are the conversations... Uh, are we making mountains out of molehills? You know, are, are we... Am I reflecting on a conversation afterwards and thinking to myself, "Wasn't quite as much a big deal as it seemed at the time"? You know, to me, that would be a red flag, and it's quite difficult to spot in the moment because these things can, these things can build quite quickly. So, that would be a question I'd want to ask is, you know, "Am I getting more heated, more worked up than this, this issue really deserves?"

Chris Williamson 32:55 Consistently.

Tim Harkness 32:55 And... Yes, yes. Um, is this, is this kind of where I end up in a conversation? And, and there's a risk here because... And, and this in fact is what Piers Morgan does, is because Piers Morgan lacks, uh, th- the analytical ability. He's not great at proving things with facts, so he tries to prove things with emotion, and he just goes for the thing of, "This is really important. This really matters. This is a moral issue." And, and that's how he tries to be persuasive, and, and he is persuasive. You know, escalation is, is very... It's kind of compelling, um, particularly if you're a safety firster and you don't like lots of emotion, then you're gonna be inclined to sort of back down. So, you know, I, I think the one flag for an escalator would be if you're looking back on a conversation and you go, "Wasn't quite as much of a big deal as it seemed at the time." Um, I, I think for the, the storyteller, um, sometimes we can look back and think, "What, what actually happened there?"

Chris Williamson 34:00 (laughs)

Tim Harkness 34:00 "You know, what, what was that... You know, what, what was that about?" And, and, and at the time, it seemed convincing, you know, white flags and, you know, nobody likes white flags. "You know, that, that, that's gotta be wrong," but as you say, you know, then I look back and go, "Well, was it a bit cream, and how big was it, and you know, what's..." That's, you know, I think those are the storytellers is that at the time it all seemed quite plausible, but then you look back and you think, uh, you know... It's almost like a dream, you know, that-

Chris Williamson 34:27 When you get down to the brass tacks of what was-

Tim Harkness 34:30 That's it.

Chris Williamson 34:30 ... the number at the end of the conversation.

Tim Harkness 34:32 Absolutely. What was the number?

Chris Williamson 34:34 Yeah.

Tim Harkness 34:35 You know?

Chris Williamson 34:35 Not, not the foggiest.

Tim Harkness 34:36 Yes, yes, yes. And, and then, you know, and, and, and to me that would be the warning sign is, you know, we're all in agreement, um, and, and, and then it's like, "Well, no." So, so that's the storyteller. I, I think that-

Chris Williamson 34:50 But, but the reason, the reason that you're all in agreement is because you're kind of not really agreeing about anything.

Tim Harkness 34:54 That's it, yeah.

Chris Williamson 34:55 You're agreeing about this other world-

Tim Harkness 34:57 This, yeah.

Chris Williamson 34:57 ... that doesn't exist, but everyone's got this like... Everyone's granddad, right, is a storyteller.

Tim Harkness 35:03 Yes.

Chris Williamson 35:03 Everyone's granddad will speak for 30 minutes, and you're like, "Yeah, Granddad," but then when he, when he finishes, you're like, "What the fuck did he just say?"

Tim Harkness 35:10 (laughs) Yes. That's the thing, you know?

Chris Williamson 35:13 Okay.

Tim Harkness 35:13 And, and that's kind of the strength and the weakness of the storyteller, and, and that would be the red flag is like, you know, what, what was that all about? I think the analyst is... You get left with this feeling of... You know that feeling when you haven't persuaded someone?

Chris Williamson 35:29 All the time, yeah.

Tim Harkness 35:30 Yes. And, and, you know, just as I said that and you kind of... There was a bit of a delay, and I was thinking, "Have I persuaded you?" You know, had... There's this sort of awkward feeling like... (laughs) And, and then I'm going, "Well, should I escalate this? Should I start telling a story? What, what should I do?" You know, when... Because I think there, there are only specific circumstances where numbers are persuasive, and, you know, and, and I'll, I'll follow this track a little bit. Um,

Tim Harkness 36:01 I, I was reading a book called The Righteous Mind by a writer called Jonathan Haidt, and, um, and he says, "Scientists, even when they're wrong, are prepared to change their mind in a way that ordinary people are not." And he's got this paragraph where he reflects on the fact that it's very difficult to persuade ordinary people of a view that they hold strongly, whereas scientists... You know, some scientists have built entire careers on, on a theory-... and they may get to a point where they've been working on this thing for 30 years, and eventually, there's this kind of incontrovertible argument, and they go, "Nah, wrong." You know-

Chris Williamson 36:41 Yep.

Tim Harkness 36:41 ... "change my mind."

Chris Williamson 36:42 Yep.

Tim Harkness 36:43 The reason why that is possible is that scientists know the rules of talking. Scientists cannot break the rules of debate. So, scie- scientists cannot do things like cherry-pick. They cannot ignore evidence, they cannot stick their heads in the sand and pretend that, um, th- that they haven't heard an argument, um, and they can't abandon the rules of logic. And when you are held to those rigorous processes, sometimes you're forced to change your mind, because you've either got the option of abandon reason or change your mind. And scientists generally would rather change their mind than abandon reason and surrender their identity as scientists. Now, normal people are not explicitly trained in the processes of reason, but we all see ourselves as reasonable people. We all... And the thing is, logic is not that difficult, you know. Amassing evidence is not actually that difficult, and we all kind of know how it works. It's just that we're not always good at applying it in particular situations. And what I have found is, even when you're talking with ordinary people, working as an analyst, you can pull people back into the conversation by saying, "But you cannot deny that and be reasonable. You cannot ignore that piece of evidence and be reasonable. You cannot stick your head in the sand and ignore that argument and be reasonable." So, you're always injecting this reminder to the person that they see themselves as reasonable and they are capable of reason. Um, so that, I think, is the opportunity for the analyst to become more persuasive, is, um, w- when they're reminded of, uh, reason. But, you know, th- that is one of the red flags when you're relying on reason too much, is you just go, "You know, I kind of said what I had to say, but I can see that this person was not moved by my, by my argument."

Chris Williamson 38:58 Yeah. Well, I mean, if, if all that it took was facts and figures, then we could just email everyone a spreadsheet and not bother to have the conversation.

Tim Harkness 39:04 Yep.

Chris Williamson 39:04 And be like, "Right, it's just, it's just there." I think another problem that people have is, again, the rules of the game are so messy. And because you have... Like in a UFC, you've got the Brazilian-

Tim Harkness 39:13 Yes.

Chris Williamson 39:13 ... Jiu-Jitsu guy, and then you've got the kickboxer-

Tim Harkness 39:16 Yes.

Chris Williamson 39:16 ... and you've got the wrestler-

Tim Harkness 39:17 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Chris Williamson 39:17 ... and blah, blah. Um, because the rules of the game for talking are so messy, not like science-

Tim Harkness 39:25 Yes.

Chris Williamson 39:25 ... in science, there's quite sharp, bright lines around, "This is right, this is wrong."

Tim Harkness 39:32 Yes.

Chris Williamson 39:32 "this is statistically significant, this isn't. There's correlation, there's not correlation."

Tim Harkness 39:36 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 39:36 You don't have those objective metrics.

Tim Harkness 39:40 You know, you, you picked a great example there, um, basically mixed martial arts, no-rules fighting. Um, so, you know, I'm a sports psychologist, and, um, about... well, it was about 15 years ago, I worked with the South African lightweight, uh, mixed martial artist, and a champion. Um, and, and at the same time, I was working with the All Africa Judo heavyweight champion. This guy had not been beaten in five years.

Chris Williamson 40:08 (laughs)

Tim Harkness 40:08 Um, he weighed a 120 kilograms.

Chris Williamson 40:10 Yeah.

Tim Harkness 40:10 He was just like this awesome human being.

Chris Williamson 40:13 Yep.

Tim Harkness 40:13 Um, but then I moved into the world of MMA. So, judo obviously is very strictly, you know, very strictly rule-based and, and governed, and, um, and then MMA at the time was a bit of a Wild West. You know, the, the UFC had, I don't think had emerged, or at least it wasn't a big deal. And, um, and this guy used to win fights by breaking people's arms. You know, that, that was just his technique, is he'd just, like, snap someone's arm and then, you know-

Chris Williamson 40:39 Game over.

Tim Harkness 40:39 ... the fight was over. Yeah. And I used to go to his dojo sometimes and, and there were two characters that I remember. The one was this butcher who weighed... honestly, this guy weighed a 130 kilograms of lean, lean muscle. Steroided out to the max. This is one of the most terrifying human beings I've ever met in my life. Now, I mean, just consider the fact that he's probably got roid rage, like, just melting his brain. He's got all of these martial art skills, and the guy weighs a 130 kilograms, you know?

Chris Williamson 41:14 Yeah.

Tim Harkness 41:14 (laughs) I mean, this is just a terrifying-

Chris Williamson 41:16 If he wants- if he wants you, you're his.

Tim Harkness 41:17 (laughs) That's it. I didn't even used to look at him. I just used to stay away.

Chris Williamson 41:22 It's the safest strategy.

Tim Harkness 41:23 Yeah, yeah. And the other one was, um, a chiropractor who was a kind of middleweight, and he was the coach, and, and he was describing... I remember the one time, he was describing how you pin someone down, um, on his, um, on his stomach on the floor, and you start to punch him in the back of the head. And obviously, in UFC, that rule is now... you can't do that anymore. And that has been one of the interesting things, even in mixed martial arts, has been how much more clear the rules have become over a generation. And if you go and watch UFC 1, you know, where they've got Gracie and sumo wrestlers and karate guys. You know, UFC 1, there's a guy who, he knocks over a sumo wrestler, and he just kicks him in the head, you know? Like-

Chris Williamson 42:08 Sends his tooth into row-

Tim Harkness 42:08 ... as he's lying on the ground. That's it.

Chris Williamson 42:10 ... row F, doesn't he? Yeah.

Tim Harkness 42:11 (laughs) Well, the one tooth goes into row F, the other one gets embedded in his foot.

Chris Williamson 42:15 (laughs)

Tim Harkness 42:16 (laughs) And, you know, it's kind of wild. And... But because there are no rules... And, and actually, modern UFC is quite rule-governed, you know. There are quite specific rules, and the refs are quite quick to jump in, and, and people know what those rules are. And this really is my argument for talking, is that at the... talking has become lawless.... but I believe it would be improved, it would become more effective, and it would become safer if we can apply some rules to it. And that's not impossible, because as human beings, we're generally quite good at applying rules to complex processes. Take football.

Chris Williamson 42:57 You're gonna need to have a lot of work done in people's system two for them to slow everything down and be incredibly deliberate for a long time.

Tim Harkness 43:09 Yeah. Yeah.

Chris Williamson 43:10 Because a deliberate conversation is enjoyable to a point-

Tim Harkness 43:18 Yes.

Chris Williamson 43:18 ... but can become a bit arduous after a while.

Tim Harkness 43:21 Yes.

Chris Williamson 43:21 Like, when you're consciously thinking about everything you say, the Sam Harris-ism that, i- where he says that, um, life is a dream where you're constrained by the reality outside of you in terms of how your, uh, brain perceives it, in that you don't know what's going to happen next. I don't know the words that are going to come out of my mouth until I say them.

Tim Harkness 43:43 Yeah, yeah.

Chris Williamson 43:43 And that's a very bizarre situation to be in, when you actually think about it.

Tim Harkness 43:47 Yes.

Chris Williamson 43:47 I don't know the next words that are going... This sentence, and then this sentence, and then this sentence.

Tim Harkness 43:51 Uh-huh.

Chris Williamson 43:51 I don't know how many of those this sentences I'm going to say, you know?

Tim Harkness 43:54 Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Chris Williamson 43:54 Um, but if you're incredibly deliberate, you can choose-

Tim Harkness 43:58 Yes.

Chris Williamson 43:58 ... to do that. And then the point is to use your planning, u- the planning you-

Tim Harkness 44:03 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 44:03 ... to instantiate these new habits, and then over time hope that system one starts to pick that up, and it, it just occurs as a byproduct of now, right? You don't, you don't consciously-

Tim Harkness 44:15 Right.

Chris Williamson 44:15 ... have to create your personality. It just occurs as a byproduct of you existing, right? It just manifests.

Tim Harkness 44:21 Yes.

Chris Williamson 44:21 Um, but it, it'll take a lot of effort, and humans-

Tim Harkness 44:24 Yes.

Chris Williamson 44:24 ... evolutionarily, our heritage is to avoid effortful, uh-

Tim Harkness 44:28 Yeah, yeah.

Chris Williamson 44:28 ... tasks. Um-

Tim Harkness 44:30 Yeah, yeah.

Chris Williamson 44:30 ... the path of least resistance is always going to be there.

Tim Harkness 44:33 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 44:34 If you play the fairer game, if I play the, "I'm gonna be real rigorous and I'm gonna be this, that, and the other," and then you start-

Tim Harkness 44:40 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 44:40 ... throwing white flags at me, I'm like, "Well-"

Tim Harkness 44:43 Yes.

Chris Williamson 44:44 "... uh, what am I doing?" Like, I'm, I'm losing a, a conversation-

Tim Harkness 44:48 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 44:48 ... that I was trying to... You know, there's so many different messy things. So I-

Tim Harkness 44:52 Absolutely.

Chris Williamson 44:52 ... I agree that it would make for a much more, uh, enjoyable conversational architecture that we could all exist in.

Tim Harkness 45:01 Yes.

Chris Williamson 45:01 But it requires an awful... Like, we can't get people to g- have consensus about, like, tons of stuff, but getting them-

Tim Harkness 45:08 Yes.

Chris Williamson 45:08 ... to have consensus about the foundational presuppositions that o- o- occur b- before we have a conversation may also-

Tim Harkness 45:15 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 45:16 ... be challenging.

Tim Harkness 45:17 Absolutely, yeah. I, I, you know, I completely agree. And, and, you know, the, the point you're making about switching between system one and system two, that, that's rule four, talk fast and slow. And so much of the talking that we do... You know, you and I now, there's quite a lot of fast talking going on between the two of us. You know, we're, we're not planning, as you say, we're not planning what it is that we're gonna say. We kind of hearing the words come out of our mouths. And, and that's a great way to talk. You know, i- imagine if we're both just reading pieces of paper at each other, you know, that, that would be, that would be terrible. We would have lost something. Um, but there are times when I need to be able to jump in and, and error check, and that's the role of system two, is to every now and then, go, "No, wait, wait, wait. Hang on. Stop." And, and it's not a lot of the time, but if I can do it some of the time, then I've made an improvement. Um, and, you know, I, I remember, I, I, I didn't actually put this one in the book, but the one time, I, I used to have this old Peugeot 307, and, um-

Chris Williamson 46:19 Quality car. Was it in that good metal gray? What color was it?

Tim Harkness 46:22 No, darker, darker.

Chris Williamson 46:25 Oh.

Tim Harkness 46:25 Uh, uh, uh, yeah, yeah. Uh.

Chris Williamson 46:26 Okay, fair enough.

Tim Harkness 46:27 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 46:27 Cool, cool. Tell us about it. I wanna know. Was it the diesel?

Tim Harkness 46:31 No, it wasn't. It was petrol. It was a, a three-door petrol. Um, w- we used to have to get three kids in the back, um, and, and it wasn't running so well. And, um, and y- we were going to visit friends, and my wife said to me, "Let's just take the bus. You know, the car's not working well." I went, "Nah, it's gonna be fine. You know, there's gonna be no problem." And, and we drove to the friend's house, and then we couldn't find parking, so we drove about 100 meters past the friend's house, and at that exact point where we could not be any further from home, it broke down. And my wife turned to me, and she went, "You know, we should have taken the bus." And, and I remember, I, I, I can't remember the name of the movie. I think it's called Red October. It's a submarine movie, and you know, there, there are times when the submarine, everything's going bad, and, like, there are red lights, and people are running around, and there are sirens going off. And I was thinking, "I'm in that movie." You know, there are sirens going off, there's red, there's, there's just bad stuff going on.

Chris Williamson 47:22 (laughs)

Tim Harkness 47:22 And, um, and, and, uh, you know, I, I'd... I mean, she was right, uh, obviously, um, but, but that was a moment where I, I think looking back, had I been able to slow things down and get a bit of system... And, and I think it was such a vivid sort of example, and, and, you know, I was so clearly in the wrong, um, that I think it was a nice example to be able to look back on and go, "Well, there's a situation where slowing things down could have been good." Um, but to come to your next point, which I think is also a critical point, and that is that this is hard. System two is harder than system one. And as human beings, we seek efficiency. It's, you know, it's not like any of us have got masses of time in the day that, you know, we, we can spend having these painstaking, deliberate, rigorous logical arguments. But what I would say to that is that all of these arguments that we have, just about, it's like, do you think the Brexit argument was fast talking? We didn't... We took three years, and we still haven't solved it. We went round and round and round. This whole lockdown thing, I'm not seeing us progressing rapidly towards solutions using the fast talking idea. Even the housework. You know how long my household has been discussing the dishwasher for?So, don't underestimate how long and how energy-sapping these repetitive conversations can be. And sometimes, it actually takes less energy to invoke system two, talk slowly and rigorously-

Chris Williamson 48:59 (clears throat)

Tim Harkness 48:59 ... and hopefully make some actual progress.

Chris Williamson 49:01 For the mental model fans out there, that is direction over speed incarnate for you.

Tim Harkness 49:07 Okay.

Chris Williamson 49:07 If you are moving in precisely the correct direction, it doesn't-

Tim Harkness 49:11 Nice.

Chris Williamson 49:11 ... matter how fast or how slow, you know that you are making small amounts of progress-

Tim Harkness 49:16 Okay. Okay.

Chris Williamson 49:17 ... every single day. Whereas, if you focus on speed as opposed to direction, which is the equivalent of efficiency over effectiveness, if you focus on speed, you can be going at 100 miles an hour in exactly the wrong direction-

Tim Harkness 49:30 Okay.

Chris Williamson 49:30 ... and then turn around and go, "Ah, shit, I've done all of this work, and actually my goal is now further away from me."

Tim Harkness 49:37 Okay. Okay.

Chris Williamson 49:38 And that, uh, uh, manifests itself in people who, uh, embed bad habits, that they think, "I'm gonna work real, real hard at doing this thing," and they end up having to then undo all of this myelin that they've wrapped around a ton of bad pathways-

Tim Harkness 49:55 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Chris Williamson 49:55 ... get rid of that, and then start again.

Tim Harkness 49:57 Okay.

Chris Williamson 49:57 Um, but yeah, direction over speed, for the people listening that love mental models. So, who do you think is the best communicator or some of the best communicators that have ever lived?

Tim Harkness 50:09 (sighs) Um, well, uh, you know, I'm, I'm biased, I'm South African, uh, Nelson Mandela, um-

Chris Williamson 50:18 How do you, how do you know that you're gonna say that? I mean, he's, he's all right. Yeah, he's good.

Tim Harkness 50:22 Yeah, yeah. I, I, I just think, um, I just think for a lot of reasons, you know? I, I think, um, in, in terms of his ability to reach out, um, I think in terms of his ability to tell stories, um, you know, he, he was an orator, um, and, and then just things like his, his body language, his tone of voice, his facial expressions. Um, but I also think in terms of his ... And, you know, rule three is, um, is most people are good, competent, and worthy of respect. And, and I think if there's one thing that I've kind of learnt or ac- n- not necessarily learnt but just accepted in this whole journey which has taken me years, it's possibly been rule three. Most people are good, competent, and worthy of respect. And what that means is that when we disagree, I don't have the easy solution, that the reason why we're disagreeing is because y- you just don't know stuff, you know? That, uh, our disagreement is rooted in your ignorance or your incompetence. I've got to find a more complex explanation but a better explanation for why you and I disagree. And I think in terms of, um, you know, Nelson Mandela, I, I, I think he really understood that. You know, he was able to take a national tragedy that had lasted for centuries and not locate the cause of it in the moral failings or the badness of a group of people, and he was able to see the good in everybody in the country, and I think that is what enabled him to speak so persuasively and, and powerfully. So, you know, that, that, that's me as a South African and, and, you know, and that's me kind of coming of age in, in the time that he was really, uh, uh, talking to the country. Um, I, I, I think, you know, I mean the other obvious answer w- would be Winston Churchill, and, you know, Winston Churchill is known for, um, we'll, we'll, you know, fight them on the beaches, we'll fight them ... A- a- and that's wonderful storytelling, um, but I spent some time reading through his speeches in detail and, and there's actually quite a, quite a precise logic that he's applying. And the other thing that he applies is that he links cause and effect, that he's not just saying, "It's all gonna be fine. We're gonna win." He's talking about things like ultimate sacrifice. "If we all do our jobs, if we all apply ourselves, then the process will deliver a result." So-

Chris Williamson 53:13 So is that the, uh, the analyst se- seeping in a little bit there?

Tim Harkness 53:16 That's it, yes. So, while he is a wonderful storyteller, he's actually got this, um, this analytical understanding of the world and this understanding of how processes lead to outcomes, and, uh, you know, for me that's what makes him a compelling, uh, communicator as well.

Chris Williamson 53:34 He worked incredibly hard at it. I was listening to-

Tim Harkness 53:37 Really?

Chris Williamson 53:38 ... Ryan Holiday's most recent book, not Ego is the Enemy, uh, Stillness is the Key, and he-

Tim Harkness 53:46 Right.

Chris Williamson 53:46 ... talks a lot, he delves into figures from history and Churchill's one of them. And fuck me-

Tim Harkness 53:51 Okay.

Chris Williamson 53:51 ... man, like he, Churchill did some graph-... Like he wrote, he wrote like 40 books, and he-

Tim Harkness 53:59 Wow. Yeah.

Chris Williamson 53:59 ... he had this unbelievable routine, this walking and writing and, uh, painting routine where he did, it was like incred-... You know, for someone that was ... And then after the, the war, he was kind of then just sort of left to one side-

Tim Harkness 54:14 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 54:14 ... and then kind of forgotten about in a bizarre-

Tim Harkness 54:17 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 54:17 ... sort of way which I, I don't think many people know, and I found that-

Tim Harkness 54:20 Yes.

Chris Williamson 54:20 I found that... He's a absolutely fascinating individual, and if anyone-

Tim Harkness 54:24 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 54:24 ... that's listening has a good biography of his, uh, that they could suggest, I'd love to get stuck into that.

Tim Harkness 54:30 Okay.

Chris Williamson 54:30 Trump, is he as much of a master communicator as people say?

Tim Harkness 54:34 (sighs) Um, you know, he, he's obviously fits in the storyteller category.... um, so you know, nobody would accuse him of being an analyst. Um-

Chris Williamson 54:47 (laughs)

Tim Harkness 54:47 ... he- (laughs)

Chris Williamson 54:48 That's, that's the nicest put-down I've ever heard.

Tim Harkness 54:52 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 54:52 No one would accuse you of being an a ... No one's ever said to you, Donald, that you're too precise, have they?

Tim Harkness 54:57 (laughs) Yes, yes, too, uh, yeah. Um, and, and no one would accuse him of being a safety firster either, you know. He-

Chris Williamson 55:03 Absolutely.

Tim Harkness 55:03 ... he doesn't shy away from that. And he, he-

Chris Williamson 55:06 Um, the opposite, if anything. He's like the anti-fragile safety firster-

Tim Harkness 55:10 Yes.

Chris Williamson 55:10 ... where he digs his feet in even harder.

Tim Harkness 55:12 Oh, yeah, oh yeah. He, and, and that's the escalation, you know. He, he just ramps it up. He, he, e- every time, he just goes up and up and up. So you've got, you've got this, you've got this storyteller and an escalator. Um, and he's extremely good at that. I think the question you would have to ask, if you were to be critical of him, is how complex are the stories that he's telling? Are these good stories? Um, are these stories that, um, that, that, that have a desired effect? Because what is he telling these stories for? And one of the criticism, you know, and, and if you look at where the US has, has gone in the three and a half years of his presidency, um, I, I think in terms of, uh, you could say standing in the world, the US does not have the same standing in the world that it, it used to have. Um, and, and part of that is, uh, n- now, you know, he, he didn't sort of, um, d- d- didn't start this pandemic. Um, but I, I, I think-

Chris Williamson 56:14 That would be one hell of a conspiracy.

Tim Harkness 56:17 (laughs) Yes. May- maybe we should (laughs) , maybe we should have a go at it.

Chris Williamson 56:22 Investigate Donald.

Tim Harkness 56:22 Yeah. (laughs)

Chris Williamson 56:22 "Excuse me, Donald-"

Tim Harkness 56:23 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 56:23 "... go check those antibodies, mate."

Tim Harkness 56:25 That's it, yeah. You know, but, but and I think it's, it, it's fair to say that, that the US response has, um, has not been, uh, widely, uh, widely admired. Um, and, and, you know, d- d- in, in, in terms of applying things like rigor or methodology or consistent approach or, uh, or things like adequate risk, uh, you could say that there have been gaps in, in the way that he's led the country. Um, so, you know, I, I think in terms of the stories that he's telling, some of the stories are not actually the best stories that you can tell. You know, if you were to take Winston Churchill, for example, if you were to take Nelson Mandela, they are also storytellers, but they're telling different stories. They're telling stories about striving for something, about unity, about developing a, a national identity. He doesn't tell those stories. He tells stories of, of fear and division and, and selfishness. And those are kind of easy stories to tell, because we've all got switches that are easily tripped. When-

Chris Williamson 57:28 The lowest, uh, the lowest hanging fruit, right? The lowest common denominator.

Tim Harkness 57:32 Yeah, yeah. So, you know, he tells powerful stories, but in a way they're easy stories to tell. Um, so you know, and, and then the other thing I would say is, he hasn't won a second election yet. You know, he won one, and he won it with the lowest margin that, you know, anybody's ever won an election.

Chris Williamson 57:49 70,000 votes, yeah.

Tim Harkness 57:50 Yeah, yeah. In, in, what was it, about three states or something. Um, let's see how he gets on this time. Um, because I, I think the real measure of how effective he's been as a storyteller, um, will only emerge... As we were saying, sometimes you can only evaluate the story one it's been told. And, um, you know, he's not quite finished.

Chris Williamson 58:14 I don't know whether it's that the US coughs and the UK catches a cold or whatever it is-

Tim Harkness 58:19 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 58:20 ... but, um, man, the, the caliber of... Or maybe this is, uh, my disposition of taking more notice of what's been going on in politics, just because I've been listening a little bit more.

Tim Harkness 58:32 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 58:33 But, man, my trust in what politicians say and what the media says-

Tim Harkness 58:40 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 58:41 ... my view of the, the delivery of the things that they say-

Tim Harkness 58:46 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 58:46 ... it's, there's levels of distrust that I've got-

Tim Harkness 58:50 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 58:50 ... that need to be worked through here.

Tim Harkness 58:52 Yeah, yeah.

Chris Williamson 58:52 And I wonder how much of that is the, me being precluded from ever trusting Trump because of what other people say about him. Like-

Tim Harkness 59:03 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 59:03 ... but even this, like, I need to, I need to strip away the bad conversations from people that aren't him, to then look at the bad conversations that he is having, to the... Do you know? Like it is-

Tim Harkness 59:14 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 59:14 ... difficult. And I, you know, if there's one thing I think that we can take away from this con- our conversation today, which hopefully has been at least, uh, in part precise and, and easy to understand, is that conversations are challenging. And-

Tim Harkness 59:27 Yes.

Chris Williamson 59:28 ... it, they require work. And I think-

Tim Harkness 59:29 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 59:29 ... because we just develop language as a byproduct of being a kid, then we learn some words in school, and then we just-

Tim Harkness 59:35 Yep.

Chris Williamson 59:35 ... think that we're gonna be able to get through the rest of our life whilst-

Tim Harkness 59:38 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 59:38 ... not working at it.

Tim Harkness 59:39 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 59:40 You know, driving a car has a lower and upper bound. It has a lower bound on how bad you can be.

Tim Harkness 59:49 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 59:49 The lower bound is, do you cause road traffic accidents? The upper bound is essentially kind of once you're above that, it kind of doesn't matter. Like-

Tim Harkness 59:57 Yes.

Chris Williamson 59:57 ... it doesn't matter if you're Colin McRae or fucking Michael Schumacher.

Tim Harkness 1:00:00 Yes.

Chris Williamson 1:00:00 Like if you go into the local shops, it makes no difference.

Tim Harkness 1:00:03 Yes.

Chris Williamson 1:00:03 However, there's gradations of usefulness. And your value, I would argue, probably is exponential, not logarithmic. It actually goes like this, and as you become-

Tim Harkness 1:00:13 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:00:14 ... as you're the top 5% in the world to the top 2% in the world-

Tim Harkness 1:00:19 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:00:19 ... to the top half a percent in the world at having conversations and at being able to say the things that are inside of your head and articulate your words-

Tim Harkness 1:00:26 Yes. Yes.

Chris Williamson 1:00:26 ... your competitive advantage, your ability to enact change, to convince others, to be a, a force for, hopefully good, in this world-

Tim Harkness 1:00:36 Yeah, yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:00:36 ... inc- is so much further ahead. Like, the difference between Joe Rogan as a podcaster and the next-best podcaster is everything.... you know?

Tim Harkness 1:00:47 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:00:47 The difference between me now and me two and a half years ago when I started this show is everything.

Tim Harkness 1:00:53 Okay. Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:00:53 It is universes apart-

Tim Harkness 1:00:56 Yeah, yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:00:56 ... in a way that... And I've still got t- tons of ways to go, but like I- I think that's a- a nice way to look at it, that people should be working to be rigorous. We've used the word rigor a lot, and I think that's a really cool way to sort of talk about-

Tim Harkness 1:01:09 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:01:09 ... conversations that-

Tim Harkness 1:01:11 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:01:11 ... you should be precise, you should be rigorous with what you say, you should try and strive to be the best conversationalist that you can-

Tim Harkness 1:01:16 Yes.

Chris Williamson 1:01:17 ... uh, because that's how you compound wisdom, right? That's how everything gets built up.

Tim Harkness 1:01:21 Yes. Yes. Yes, and as you say, it's worth the effort.

Chris Williamson 1:01:27 Well, hopefully some people are going to go away from this and be better conversationalists. If they want to pick up Ten Rules for Talking, it will be linked in the show notes below. Feel free to follow that link onto Amazon and grab it on there. Also, you'll be supporting this podcast at no extra cost to yourself. Any other stuff that you want to plug, Tim? Any other stuff people should go check out?

Tim Harkness 1:01:46 No. I- I- I'll leave it at that. (laughs)

Chris Williamson 1:01:49 (laughs) That's... Hey, that's...

Tim Harkness 1:01:50 Uh, yeah, y- you kind of put me on the spot there, um...

Chris Williamson 1:01:54 Are you on Twitter, Instagram, website, blog, any of that stuff?

Tim Harkness 1:01:57 Uh, Twitter, uh, timharkness10. Um, uh, yeah, w-we- welcome... I'm... Yeah, welcome to, to check that out, but, uh, mainly I, I think, you know, I, I spent a lot of time working on that book, so it... kind of those are my ideas in there, and, uh, uh, that- that- that's sort of me at the moment.

Chris Williamson 1:02:14 Hey, if this is... if this is a manifestation of you, I think it's a good... a good use of your time, mate, um, and yeah-

Tim Harkness 1:02:20 Thank you very much.

Chris Williamson 1:02:20 ... that's, uh, linked, linked in the show notes below. Go and check it out if you want to have better conversations. I think we all could do with a little bit of that. Uh, probably as well, a lot of people that listen to this are kind of fledgling podcasters. I think there's a lot of stuff in there-

Tim Harkness 1:02:32 Okay. Okay.

Chris Williamson 1:02:32 ... that I've stumbled u- upon, um, during the time that I've just spent-

Tim Harkness 1:02:38 Right.

Chris Williamson 1:02:38 ... talking to people.

Tim Harkness 1:02:39 Yeah, yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:02:40 And again, when you read something that reflects reality, it's usually a pretty good indication that it- it reinforces what they're saying, it reinforces what you're saying.

Tim Harkness 1:02:48 As a rule of thumb, yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:02:49 Yeah.

Tim Harkness 1:02:49 Kind of tells you're going in the right direction.

Chris Williamson 1:02:51 For sure, yeah. So, uh, again, if you want to expedite some of your ability to have conversations with people, come and grab this. Tim, thank you so much man.

Tim Harkness 1:03:00 No, well, thank you, yeah. En- en- enjoyed, enjoyed our conversation. Th- thanks very much. (uplifting music)