An FBI Agent's Guide To Body Language - Joe Navarro | Modern Wisdom Podcast 389

1. 0:00 – 4:14

   Intro

   1. JNJoe Navarro0:00

      Too much eye contact affects interviewing. Allowing the person to drift off, to be comfortable, to be reflective is often better than what you see on television. It's actually easier to resist someone when they're in front of you. You know, it's easier to fend somebody off than somebody who's next to you. Somebody who's next to you, it's pretty tough to argue with them. It's like we're both on the same side. (air whooshing)

   2. CWChris Williamson0:26

      Joe Navarro, welcome to the show.

   3. JNJoe Navarro0:28

      Good to be here, Chris.

   4. CWChris Williamson0:30

      For the people who aren't familiar with you and your background, where have you gone that's led you to this point?

   5. JNJoe Navarro0:39

      Not very far, you know, (laughs) 25 years in the FBI where, uh, I, I got to play as a SWAT team commander, spycatcher and, uh, bureau pilot. Uh, I was the FBI's body language expert, and then I retired and wrote 14 books. And, um, so not much. (laughs)

   6. CWChris Williamson0:59

      Yeah, uh, a, uh, colorful career path-

   7. JNJoe Navarro1:03

      (laughs)

   8. CWChris Williamson1:03

      ... I think you could say. What's the-

   9. JNJoe Navarro1:05

      Y-

   10. CWChris Williamson1:05

       What are those different, um, elements within the Bureau there, for the people that haven't got a clue what you're talking about?

   11. JNJoe Navarro1:11

       Y- yeah. Well, you know, i- within the FBI, uh, we have a lot of subprograms. So, uh, I en- when I entered into the Bureau, I was already a, a licensed pilot and we were always in need of pilots because we use, uh, uh, aircraft as platforms for surveillance. So I, I got to do that. And then, (laughs) they, they wanted volunteers, which means I was pushed into, uh, going into the SWAT program because, uh, you know, sometimes you're up against some, um, (smacks lips) uh, some pretty dastardly groups. And, uh, spent 14 years as a ... on a SWAT team, uh, in, uh, Puerto Rico and then in, in Tampa and, um, and, uh, doing counterterrorism investigations. But mostly, you know, I spent those 25 years ... So, so you can do other things within the FBI. Um, I was, uh, part of the National Security's, uh, uh, behavioral program, which, uh, looked at, uh, human behavior. And, uh, and actually that's really what led me, um, not only my spycatching, but, uh, but led me to, uh, to, to begin to write books. And, uh, and in fact, the, the, the first book, uh, that I wrote with, uh, Jack Schaefer, uh, really was I was getting ready to retire from the FBI and, and people were saying, you know, "There's all this knowledge that you have, but you're taking it with you. Uh, w- why don't you share it?" And, um, I never w- I never intended to, to, uh, uh, be a writer. Um, and in fact, I often say I'm, I'm a writer, I'm r- or an author. I'm really not a writer. (laughs) I know what a (laughs) good writer is. Uh, I'm sure you know the, the, uh, the difference. But, um, you know, all o- all in all, it's, it's, uh, it was, uh, a fantastic experience. And, um, and obviously you, you learn a lot. Um, you know, I got to work with, uh, uh, British Intelligence. I wor- I worked with, uh, German Intelligence. Uh, um, and just different folks around the world. And it, uh, it makes for an interesting, uh, career.

   12. CWChris Williamson3:26

       What's the difference between SWAT in Puerto Rico and SWAT in Tampa?

   13. JNJoe Navarro3:32

       Well, the d- the, the, the difference was that each, each major city has its owns, uh, SWAT team. And when I transferred to, to Puerto Rico, there we were dealing mostly with, uh, uh, counterterrorism. Uh, when I came to Tampa, then it became, uh, m- more, uh, in, in the area of, uh, uh, criminal activity, uh, drug gangs, uh, w- with a lot of firepower and so forth. Um, y- you know, the ... Puerto Rico is, is a United States commonwealth, so we have jurisdiction there. But it's just a matter of, uh, of the kind of work we were doing at the time.

2. 4:14 – 9:44

   Using Observation Before an Operation

   1. CWChris Williamson4:14

      There's a really interesting story where you talk about you're quite self-reflective to do with a, a challenge that you had on the morning of quite a big operation. Can you take us through that?

   2. JNJoe Navarro4:26

      Well, (laughs) yeah. It's, uh, (laughs) you know, you, you think back of all, o- of all the challenges and, uh, that one was here in, in Tampa, Florida, where, um, we were, we were getting ready to, to, to, uh, uh, do a SWAT operation. And one of the things that you always are thinking about is, is safety and have we, have we covered all the bases? And y- you know, you go down the mental checklist of, "Where's the nearest, uh, hospital in case somebody gets hurt? Where can we land a helicopter or a series of helicopters if somebody needs to be medevaced?" You know, it's, it's the kind of things, uh, the, uh, uh, the British SAS would, would go through. And I noticed that in the meeting, um, it, y- you know, the questions that should've been asked weren't being asked as, as quickly and, and, and, uh, and as, um, efficiently as, as normal. And one of the things you wanna do is, is have an eye on all the troops. Who's having a tough time? Who's having a bad day? Is anybody's mind off the game? (smacks lips) Just like in sp- in sports. And finally, i- it just dawned on me, even though I was at ... the SWAT commander at the time, I, I went to the, uh, the boss in the office and I said, "I, I gotta take one of your players out. He's, he's not doing well." And he ... you know, we had full confidence in me and he said, "Yeah. Have at it." And I said, "Well, (laughs) that's me. (laughs) I gotta take mys- myself out. I am ... My mind is not, uh, where it should be. I'm, I'm not responding to things. I don't know what's wrong." And, uh ...And, um, so I, you know, I talked about that in, um, in, in, in my, uh, in my book. And, um, and I'm glad that I did it because the, the operai- you know, the number two guy took over, everything went down, nobody got hurt. But I had to be honest with myself and have that conversation and say, "Should I be, uh, here doing this?" And it was kinda humbling that all of a sudden... And I think it can happen to any of us. We can be physically not well, we can be mentally not well. And that day I was not mentally, uh, well. And then, um, I think a few days later, I, it, it finally, like, you know, you, you don't think about this, my grandmother had passed away. And, um, a few weeks earlier, and I think it was still bothering me and, uh, and it had affected me. And I think it, th- these are the kinds of conversations that I, that I talk about in, in the book that we need to have and say, "Do we really know ourselves? Do we know our own weaknesses? Do we recognize them and are we willing to challenge, uh, that?" And, y- and that's, I think it's hard to do because in an organization where you have all these alpha males and alpha females, and everybody's always gung-ho and, and willing to do anything and everything, um, every once in a while you have to deal with the, with the, the human factor. And, uh, and, eh, I, I think that was good for me because I think it made me a better, uh, a better agent to deal with other people when they had, uh, their own issues.

   3. CWChris Williamson7:50

      You must have had a very good relationship with your superior to be able to go and have that conversation. You must have felt very comfortable with him.

   4. JNJoe Navarro7:57

      Well, we had worked, uh, at that point, we had worked, uh, uh, uh, several years together and he had known me, uh, before. And you develop confidence. I mean, every, every operation you run, you run by them and, and you go through the list of what we're gonna do, how we're gonna do it, what happens, for instance, if they open up and fire on us, what happens if they take a hostage and, and so forth. And so you, you have that, uh, you have that bond, um, but, you know, it's, it's not something that's always automatic. And, um, and I was appreciative that he didn't force me to... I, I think a lot of bad, um, supervisors would, would've said, "Well, well you can do it. Get tough. Get in there and just, just do it." Um, and he knew when to push. He, he knew my limits, but he knew that something wasn't right. And, um, and, and that's, you know, I, I talk about that also, that one of the greatest attributes of a great leader is the ability to observe the, the needs and the wants, but also the fears and concerns of the people they lead. And I, and I think, you know, I look back on history and, and you look at the great generals and I think that's one of the things that, that stood out is that they had a sense of, uh, of each and every player and say, "Well, this unit or this m- this man or woman can do that," but we, w- we mustn't push too far, uh, at, at times. And, um, and, and it goes to, to, to the concept that to, to lead you have to be able to observe.

3. 9:44 – 17:44

   How to Develop Self-Mastery

   1. JNJoe Navarro9:44

   2. CWChris Williamson9:44

      It's an interesting thought that it's not necessarily the thing that you're running towards that you always need to look out for, it's the thing that you're running away from. Like, what is it that the people that are working underneath you really fear? Because improos- eh, improving motivation or increasing motivation might get more output out of them, but the thing which is going to completely ruin the operation is the fear. So getting that sorted first-

   3. JNJoe Navarro10:06

      Yeah.

   4. CWChris Williamson10:06

      ... seems to be the priority.

   5. JNJoe Navarro10:09

      Uh, you nailed it, Chris. The, the, the, the thing that is never taught in, in any business school, um, in any management school is that you have to identify that which y- your, everyone may, may b- may fear or be concerned with, and then the leader's role is to ameliorate that, to diminish its capacity to, to divert, to injure, to hurt or to, um, or to, um, you know, cau- cause people to qu- to quiver. And that's one of the things that great leaders do. And, and it doesn't matter whether y- uh, you're talking about someone in, in a home situation with a small group of five or six people in a, in a church or, or a military organization or as a, as a CEO is how do you get through this dilemma? How do we attenuate fear? One of the things we're seeing nowadays is we're seeing a lot of leaders who, in fact, inflame fear, who, uh, not only at times create, uh, fear, but, but flame, you know, um, uh, um, create an atmosphere where it's allowed to, to be fertile and percolate to the surface, not realizing that the greatest leaders are always ameliorating fear. They're always pushing it down, getting it out of the way because they, they know that, number one, fear can turn into hatred and fear can be paralyzing. And, um, and so, um, you know, whether you're looking at the financial industry in 2008 and you look at those people who, um, came forward... and, uh, and sort of helped us through this and said, "We will deal with this problem a little bit at a time, but we will deal with it," while others were just fanning the flames of, "Oh, the world's gonna end." That's not leadership. Uh, that's the worst kind of leadership.

   6. CWChris Williamson12:26

      How do you define self-mastery?

   7. JNJoe Navarro12:30

      That's a great question. I think it's a combination of things. I think it's, number one, being in ch- uh, being in charge of, taking responsibility for, but also being in control of your emotions. Um, I, you know, I, I, I looked at, uh, s- so many historical examples and realized that oftentimes what has derailed really smart people is their inability to control their emotions, that, um, whether it was great, uh, coaches or, or, uh, an- any number of individuals, uh, great military leaders, they were derailed by, by their emotions. The second thing is the ability to focus enough on those things that are important to you so that you can then dedicate yourself to that. You know, I talk about, um, Joseph Campbell and his great book, uh, The Power of Myth. And, and, you know, he, he famously said, you know, f- you know, "Follow your, y- your, your bliss." And people, uh, a lot of people made fun of that and they misunderstood what that meant. It wasn't you were gonna sit your- yourself down on a chair, on a sunny - on a- on a sunny beach and your bliss was gonna come to you. What he meant was that if you pursue that which you seek, which, if you focus on it, i- if you create the scaffolding of experience, reading, um, reaching out to people, that you can achieve that bliss, and that o- doors will be open to you. Um, I look at, uh, the American example of Benjamin Franklin, who arrives in Philadelphia with 15 cents on his- in his pocket, learns the trade of publishing, uh, becomes the, you know, Postmaster General of the United States, creates the first, uh, fire department, and then goes on and becomes the first ambassador to, to, to France. How do you do that? I mean, what school do you go to? There, there's actually no school now that you can attend to that will teach you that. But what he did was he created the scaffolding. He, you know, in, in essence, he created that whole apprenticeship program for himself so that there would be no limits. None. If you go to France right now, (laughs) the only statue there is of an American (laughs) is Benjamin Franklin. (laughs) He wasn't president. You know, he gifted to the world the, uh, the lightning, uh, uh, arrester, but, but beyond that, i- i- i- y- you can create yourself into something, and that's mastery. And it doesn't matter whether you're Jane Goodall and you're 22 years old and you say, "You know what? I wanna be an ethologist. I'm gonna go to the jungle. I don't have a degree." She didn't have a degree. She was a secretary. She says, "You know what? I'm gonna study primates," and became the premier mind in the world in the subject of primates. She's the first to tell us, hey, not for nothing, but these little guys use tools. (laughs) Isn't that how we define mankind? I- I mean, it was a, it was a, it wa- it was a shock. She didn't let anything get in her way. That's what you can achieve when you have self-mastery. And then there's-

   8. CWChris Williamson16:29

      So self-mastery... Sorry. Self-mastery is a combination of removing fear and then focusing intently on the thing that you want to do.

   9. JNJoe Navarro16:36

      It's, it's, it's that. It's creating, it's c- controlling your emotions, but being able to focus on the things that are important to you and then creating a m- a, uh, an apprenticeship program f- for yourself. S- 10 years ago, Chris, you weren't doing this. You created this for yourself. You worked hard at it. You, you, you, you know, I, I'm sure you made plenty of mistakes, but you got to where you are at by creating this, um, by having that proper scaffolding one bit at, at a time. Nobody s- nobody s- uh, said, "Oh, here's, here's a memo. Follow it and you'll, you'll be interviewing Joe Navarro or Chris Voss or, or somebody else." You did that on y- o- on your own. And, and that's what the book is about, that exceptional individuals, they don't have to follow a, a particular regimen. They can create their own regimen, and that is true self-mastery.

4. 17:44 – 25:31

   Creating Your Own Apprenticeship

   1. JNJoe Navarro17:44

   2. CWChris Williamson17:44

      Yeah, it's, um ... It's a strange thing to think about permissionless apprenticeships, as they're called online, where somebody does just strike out on their own. Let's say that there's someone listening who thinks, "Yeah, I, I, I know that I'm ready to make a change. I know that I'm not in the place that I want to be," how does someone set out on the first step of an apprenticeship? Because I think that's probably going to be the hardest one.

   3. JNJoe Navarro18:09

      That's a g- that's a great question. Uh, you know, experience teaches me that.You know, it, I think now it's actually a lot easier. Um, I, you know, you can go on YouTube (laughs) and, and do everything from figure out how to tune your car to, to, uh, to, uh, swap out your, uh, your bathroom appliances. Uh, I, I think it's so much easier now. When I started in the area of nonverbals in 1971, '72, there were maybe one or two books on, on body language. Uh, now there's an infinite, uh, an infinite number. So, I think it's a matter of taking advantage of what resources exist, uh, but also re- reaching out. I, I admire people who, who re- don't hesitate to reach out and say, "Hey, I'm, I'm starting out. Can, can you, you know, can you give me a few tips?" Just the other day, I was talking to somebody and, and, and that, and I said, "Y- you've been working for the government for 25 years. You're (laughs) going out on your own. Here's, here's a few tips. Number one, get yourself a nice business card. Don't put too much (laughs) information on it, just your name, uh, email address, and a, and a, and a, and a, and a phone number, and that's it. Don't, don't label yourself as to what you will do or not do, number one. Number two, if you have a website, don't, don't, uh, um, take good care of it and don't change your email address every six months as you go from AOL to Yahoo to Roadrunner or, and whatever. Little bit of advice, very simple." The guy c- uh, came back to me later (laughs) and he, and he said, "You're, you're right. Uh, th- those, those things are important." We can a- we can always find someone that will help us. Um, and there's nothing wrong with, with, uh, reaching out to others and just ask, "How did you do it?" Hey, if I came to you and said, "Chris, how did you do it? You've, you've got such a successful program," and I'm sure you could, you could say, "Well, you know, the first thing you do is you humble yourself," and you say, "I don't know what I'm doing, but I'm gonna learn," and then, and then make the sacrifices. One of the, one of the things that I find is people have grand ideas, but they don't know how to pay the price. They don't know how-

   4. CWChris Williamson20:39

      What's that mean?

   5. JNJoe Navarro20:39

      ... to s- uh, to focus, to study, to, uh, rehearse, to do things, uh, so that you become better at it. Um, just the other day, a, a student was asking me, you know, "Well, you know, uh, I, I find writing very difficult." I find writing very difficult. And, um, I asked him, "Well, how many times did you edit what you're working on?" And he says, "Oh, I must have edited it two times." I go, "Wow." I said, "Do you know how many times I re-edited my complete book? (laughs) It's 26 times (laughs) from start to finish, and, and it could probably, uh, use even, even more." I said, "That's the price that, you know, you have to pay." Uh, you say, you know, you go to see a play, Hamilton. Wow, fantastic. Tickets are expensive. Yeah, they're expensive. How many times did they rehearse? 47 times before anybody saw them. And that's what most people aren't w- that price is what people aren't willing to pay. But th- the swimmers that go out there and work on their technique, the, the cellist that goes out and perfects their technique, the person that, like you, sits in front of the screen and, and evaluates themselves and says, "How can I do this better?" They're gonna be the soonest winners. They're willing to pay the price. And, um, and that's part of mastery. Um, and it's, and it's, you know, people say, "Well, it, it can be, it can't be done," and my argument is, it can be done. The question is your dedication to that.

   6. CWChris Williamson22:34

      One of the things that I learned a couple years ago that was so interesting was the difference between having a dream that you like the idea of and having a goal that you're prepared to achieve. So-

   7. JNJoe Navarro22:46

      Right.

   8. CWChris Williamson22:46

      ... a lo- a lot of people have the dream of, let's say, being a rock star-

   9. JNJoe Navarro22:50

      Mm-hmm.

   10. CWChris Williamson22:50

       ... but they don't actually like the idea of gigging on the road or practicing playing guitar and having-

   11. JNJoe Navarro22:53

       (laughs)

   12. CWChris Williamson22:54

       ... callouses on their hands and reading sheet music and having to go through tons and tons of shitty band mates and deal-

   13. JNJoe Navarro22:59

       (laughs)

   14. CWChris Williamson22:59

       ... with record deals and deal with crap managers and sleep in a van and do this. It's like, well, hang on a second. You just said that you wanted to be a rock star.

   15. JNJoe Navarro23:05

       (laughs)

   16. CWChris Williamson23:05

       We're like, this is being a re- that's what being a rock star is. It's all of that shit until you finally get to play Wembley Arena or somewhere in Vegas.

   17. JNJoe Navarro23:13

       Yeah.

   18. CWChris Williamson23:13

       That's, that's the price that you are paying for this. And a lot of the time, I think people would not put their hand in their pocket and pay the price that they think they would be prepared to pay for the dreams that they have. It's the ones- Yeah. ... where you're actually able to get reality to meet up with your pursuit where you end up making progress.

   19. JNJoe Navarro23:32

       Yeah, yeah, I think you're exactly right. We, we wanna be John Lennon (laughs) right? With, with 10 number one hits u- under our belt. You don't realize, number one, how many songs he wrote that never made it. You don't realize how many songs they threw away. You don't realize the Beatles, uh, how much time they spent crossing the channel, going to Germany, playing in these little clubs where, on a good night, they would get 60 to 80 people. And, uh, you know, they were being paid, I think, uh, less than $60, uh, in, in relative, uh, dollars for, um, for performing. And they were sleeping three, three to a room and, uh, and it's not a pleas- a pleasant life.Um, e- everything comes a- at- at a price. Um, but i- if- if, uh, if one thing instructed me, and I'm sure you read it, uh, y- you saw the story in- in- in the book, of this, this- this woman who- who does, um, this needle work. And I- I found her in Brazil, and she's k- she was known all over South America for her needle work, and she was blind. (laughs) She was blind and she was doing needle work, and she had taught herself to thread count with her fingertips, just like if you would read braille, and she could read the material. And then, w- w- uh, I mean, it was- it was- it was just- just being in her presence was a- was- was a wonderful e- experience. This is what she wanted to do. This is how she provided for her family, and she was the best, and, um, and she didn't let anything get in he- get in- in her way. Um, b- but again, it's what price are you- are you willing to, um, to- to

5. 25:31 – 34:30

   The Fundamentals of Observation

   1. JNJoe Navarro25:31

      pay?

   2. CWChris Williamson25:32

      Observation is, like, your specialist subject, right? So let's say that we've got a busi- a beginner-

   3. JNJoe Navarro25:37

      Yeah.

   4. CWChris Williamson25:37

      ... who's never looked at nonverbals before. What are the main things that somebody should be looking for?

   5. JNJoe Navarro25:43

      Well, you know, obviously, the- the face is the- the one thing that we, uh, uh, we always, uh, uh, notice. Um, something so simple as, you know, when we like someone, we arch the eyebrows. We- we- we- we say, "Hey, yeah, that's, uh," right? So we emphasize with the eyes. Chris, when- when you struggle with something, your eyelids come down and they stay down for a little bit, and that lets us know that, uh, yeah, you're struggling w- with- with that. Um, you know, our lips tend to compress, when we're, uh, struggling with something or we're in disagreement. We purse our lips forward. When we've made up our mind, uh, quite often we da- do, uh, jaw shifting when we have doubts. Like, "Oh, yeah right, mate." (laughs) You know, that sort of thing. Um, there's just, you know, there's- there's- there's so many things. The- the little area between the eyes, uh, called the glabella, we furrow that when we don't understand something or we're in disbelief. There's all sorts of things, uh, about the body, but o- one of the things, uh, for instance, the feet, a- are actually one of the most honest parts of the body, because our feet don't have a contract. So socially, if you smile, I smile. So there's a social contract almost, uh, everywhere in the world where if Chris smiles, I have to smile back, right? But your feet don't. Uh, i- i- if- if you don't like somebody, often you'll see them enter a- a room and they'll go, "Hey, how are you?" But the feet are f- facing away, (laughs) and, uh, we, the- our limbic brain, this more primitive area of the brain that's really quite exquisite, doesn't allow us to front, uh, things that might be harmful to us. So we t- we turn it away. And y- you'll see it with, like, little two-year-old kids, they'll go, "I don't want to talk to you." (laughs) It's like, well, nobody taught them that, and yet they- and yet they do it. So, um, so there- there- there's those, uh, those things are, um, you know, uh, you- you'll see the, uh, commissure touching, right? So these are the commissures of the mouth, the corners, they'll go, "Yeah." You know, you know that there's an issue, there's a concern in- in- in their- their minds. So we- we reveal a lot. Th- this, obviously this has nothing to do with deception. We- we know that there's no single behavior indicative of deception, but it does give us clues as to what the person may be thinking. And, uh, and that's always, uh, useful. Yeah.

   6. CWChris Williamson28:26

      What about proximity from someone?

   7. JNJoe Navarro28:29

      Uh, that's a big issue because now we know, because of the pandemic, that people want more space. Uh, proxemics has more to do with, uh, culture and personal preferences. So, uh, in Latin America, uh, you know, I come from Cuba, and in Cuba we stand very close to each other, we touch each other a lot a lot and so forth. And then you go to Norway and Sweden, which I have been, and, you know, people stand further apart, there's less touching and- and so forth. So, um, and that's a huge factor when you're trying to establish, um, uh, a relationship is if- if you're constantly violating somebody's space, then- then basically you're making them uncomfortable. And- and that is- is- is not, um, that- that just doesn't work over the long run, because all you can think about is, "Come on, buddy, back up." Um, you know, I, the- the- the brain is, the- the brain in ce- certain things is very binary. We're either comfortable or uncomfortable. If you get in an elevator and somebody gets too close to us, you know, we start ventilating, we start touching our neck. We- we do all- all- all sorts of, uh, of things. And it's the same thing that happens when we're in an argument and, uh, after the argument is over, that's when you think of all the clever lines you should have said. But in the argument, you can't think of it because your brain is dealing with the arguing, the emotions and, um, yeah, so we- we- we have to be mindful o- of- of space, uh-... uh, and even where we look at each other, right? Because you can look at somebody so intensely that it makes them nervous. Um, women, uh, often complain that, you know, (laughs) men ha- men have to be re- reminded that, "Stay up here." (laughs) You know? You're, you're not, you're not NORAD. Your radar doesn't have to be all over the landscape, just right here, guys. (laughs) And, uh, and, and I agree. I ... You know, in fact, the research shows that, um, in, in, uh, in a social setting or a business setting, it really needs to stay, uh, just within this, this area, uh, to make people, uh, uh, comfortable. So, yeah.

   8. CWChris Williamson31:07

      How can people strengthen their powers of observation then? Let's say, it's someone that isn't used to paying this much attention.

   9. JNJoe Navarro31:15

      Well, uh, I mean, there's, uh ... That's a g- that's a great question and it's one that I'm often asked and I say, "Well, obviously," (laughs) say, "Buy my books" (laughs) and, and, uh, and so forth. But that's, th- that's just, uh, too easy. Well, there are several things that I've done over the years and one is, um, I ... Obviously, I've, I've studied the literature, I've written, uh, uh, some of the literature. But one of the things that I personally do is I try to watch films, uh, from different, uh, cultures. So, uh, big on my list are from, uh, Brazil, uh, Korea, uh, Persian films I love, uh, Turkish films, Egyptian films and, um, and, and films from, from Mexico. Um, and, uh, and even- and Ja- and, and some Japanese films. And, and I, and I watch them, um, to study the body language and to become more focused on the little subtle nuances. Uh, something so simple as greeting behaviors, turn-yielding behaviors, um, who can look at whom, um, and validating that most of the non-verbals that really matter are universal. I mean, a smile is a smile. Uh, a nose wrinkle, right? I mean, I've seen that in Japan, I've seen it in Korea, I've seen it in, in, uh, in, uh, in Iran. So, you know. Um, so I, I study it that way. But there are little tricks, uh, you can do, um, so th- that can really help you. One of the ones that I use is, uh, every once in a while when I go outside, I will, I'll w- I will sca- I will do a quick scan and say, "Okay, how many white cars, how many gray cars, how many r- red cars?" And, uh, and, and sort of work my way through that as I go through a parking lot as I'm driving in. And then as I'm walking away to, I'll say, "Okay, I was right. There were, there were two whites, one gray, uh, one, one black." And like any skill, observation is, um, is a skillset that you have to work at. For two years, while I was in, uh, Puerto Rico, uh, they wanted me to be a supervisor and I ... It, it, it, it didn't destroy, but it certainly hampered. Once I went off the desk and was back on the street, uh, I could immediately tell the difference of how much slower I was a- at observing. Um, because I ... You know, on a desk, y- y- you look at, you know, you're doing this all day. Out there, you have to have situational awareness. Um, you forget that you're supposed to scan, right? You're supposed to scan, uh, the, the world around you, not focus on one little thing at a time. So, training yourself to s- to do the quick scan so you can read a whole room, uh, is something that, uh, that, that we teach and, and you can become, uh, better at it.

6. 34:30 – 50:15

   Primacy of Emotions in Communication

   1. JNJoe Navarro34:30

      Yeah.

   2. CWChris Williamson34:30

      You mentioned earlier on about emotions and one of the elements that you identify in good communication is the primacy of emotions.

   3. JNJoe Navarro34:38

      Right.

   4. CWChris Williamson34:38

      Is that, is that the same as controlling your emotions? That what- what's the goal that we're trying to get through here?

   5. JNJoe Navarro34:44

      That's a, that's a good question. Let's differentiate. From, from a, um, from a biological, as well as a volution- evolutionary perspective, there had to be a quick, efficient system to protect us and that became our emotional system. And I say that because the, the emotional system has actually very little thinking going on. So if, if all of a sudden I were to ... If we were in the same room, Chris, and, and somebody brought in a Bengal tiger, we would probably stand or sit very still. We would kind of, like, not move. We just c- "Do you see that beast?" "Well, yeah. Just don't say anything." Right? This is your emotional brain working, which says, in the face of fear, in the face of a threat, freeze. The freeze response kicks in. People think it's fight or flight. It's not. It's freeze, flight, fight. And so there's the primacy of, of emotions. If, if, if I walk by you and, and throw a punch, well, if you had to think about it, you know, and say, "Well, you know, I'm built better than Joe Navarro. My arm," you know, "I've got ... Chris Williamson has guns in his arms. Joe's an old man." You know, you're doing (laughs) you're doing the math. (laughs) Y- y- I know, you're having a visual. You really don't, don't want a countenance.Uh, if we had evolved that way, we'd, we'd all be dead. We'd be thinking, "Is, is that a friendly snake or is it ill-tempered?" So our, you know, our, our brain is kinda hectic. It, it evolved to deal with the emotional security stuff first and foremost. And that's why when we're stressed, we forget where the keys are and we forget the clever lines because emotions have primacy. Now, having said that, that doesn't mean that we can't take control of our emotions. What that means is when we have the opportunity, which is different, when we have the opportunity to reflect, to deal with emotional situations. You know, you have a, a child that does something wrong. Okay, they're gonna do things wrong. How do I, how do I deal with that rather than fly off the handle? That's the difference, where you have an opportunity to assess the, the emotions of the moment versus something that's reactive. Uh, I mean, if a car's coming at you, you're not gonna be able to think too much a- about that. That's where an a- a- and, you know, containing impulsiveness, right? There's a lot of people that are impulsive. "I'm," you know, you ask them, well, "How much savings do you have?" "Well, I haven't been able to save any money." Well, yeah, but you're spending more money on your car than ... So they're very impulsive with certain things and that's part of it too, is, is reigning yourself in. And, um, and, and, and that's emotional mastery. Yeah.

   6. CWChris Williamson38:19

      It's so unfortunate that the high-pressure situations that we get ourselves into are the ones where our physiology makes our brains so ill-prepared for it. So you do a, a big event, you've got a big talk coming up, it's your first one, a lot's on the line, you really, really need to nail this. And then the night before, you don't sleep because you're terrified. And you wake up the next morning and you're unprepared and you're ... What's happening in the body and the brain when we're going through that sort of pressure situation? It's an awkward conversation with a partner or a boss or there's something that we're concerned about. What's happening to us?

   7. JNJoe Navarro38:53

      What's happening to us is, is, uh, is, uh, is you literally are ... It's an e- electrochemical imbalance. You are, your, uh, your serotonin levels may be down. You, you probably haven't been sleeping, you haven't been eating right, so your sugar levels are off. Um, y- your cortisol is flowing because you're having this difficult conversation or you're nervous or, or, or you're tense. And you know, you, you ... People forget the human brain is the most complex thing in the universe, without question. The, the, the, the sun, that's easy to explain. The human brain, we have no idea what's, what, what's going on. We don't even know how memories are really built, you know, synapses are reaching out to axioms, eh, eh, eh, you know, all, all sorts of things. We, we respond to the world around us, um, and, and for the most part, it, it, it's, we have a certain amount of control. But it can be overwhelming. And I've been in those situation. Oh my gosh, you're gonna ... You do your first TED Talk. Um, how's that gonna go over and, and, and you worry. But then you start to think, wait a minute, this is where mastery comes in. What do I know that, d- ... Will anyone in the audience know as much about this topic as I will? How many people have arrested a spy here? How many people have arrested seven or eight spies? How many people have, uh, listened in on the conversations of the mafia, the, the Joe Bonanno family in New York? How many people have, uh, investigated 25 homicides in two years? And then you realize, okay, okay, start to settle down. These people haven't experienced what you've experienced, you know. It's, well, what if there's PhDs in, in the audience? How many of them have interviewed 13,000 people? You know, then you, then you start to, to, to say to yourself, and everybody can do this, what do I know? How do I know it? Have I rehearsed it? And then you can sort of will yourself back up to where you really belong. 'Cause it's easy to crush yourself and say, "Oh my God, there's gonna be 600 people there and these people are my equals and they know stuff and ... " But, um, but yeah, you can, you can resuscitate yourself, uh, if, if, if you need to. And sometimes, you know, it's, it's so overwhelming that I, I say find a wall and push it. Just, just push it. Just push that wall. And one of the interesting things that happens is that in the effort to push that wall, that you're forcing your muscles to then send signals to the brain, which then begin to create that homeostasis that, that we need. Because your brain can only handle so many things, and if you're sitting there pushing just as hard as you can, your brain really can't do two things at once. And-

   8. CWChris Williamson42:30

      It's strange that, because we have the same reaction, uh, innately when we stub our toe.... or you get kicked in the shin. Because the reason that you rub it is because the brain struggles to send the sensation of both pain and rubbing at the same time.

   9. JNJoe Navarro42:46

      E- e- exactly. And, and if you, and if you get kicked in one leg and then get kicked in the other, trust me, I've played American football. The first one you forget about. It's the (laughs) second one that takes over. It's the same technique that we teach, for instance, people who, um, all of a sudden are having a panic attack, and you say, "Squeeze the, the nerve that lies here between the commissure of the index finger and the thumb." There's a, a, a nerve there that if you squeeze it really hard, it's extremely painful. And all of a sudden, if y- if you do that for about 10 or 12 seconds, and you hold that, all of a sudden you find yourself w- where's my anxiety? Where has that gone?

   10. CWChris Williamson43:37

       I had a-

   11. JNJoe Navarro43:38

       Your brain is, is handling one thing at a time.

   12. CWChris Williamson43:41

       I had a really interesting experience with this. So I came off a moped in Bali because I'm a awful tourist that can't ride bikes, and hit the deck, grazed all one side of me. But because I'm a bro, I decided that we were gonna go to the beach club in any case, and the lads that I was with would clean me up when we were there. So we stopped in a pharmacy, continued on to the beach club as basically one entire side of me is covered in blood. Uh, and we sat down, and I had a beer, and they were like, "Look, right. We'll, we'll, we'll get started with this." So I had shoulder, elbow, knee, and top of foot, uh, and that was in order of ascending extremity as well. So it was worst, the foot was the worst, then the knee, then... So the guys were going through it, and they had, um, alcohol swabs, they had iodine, and then they had dressing. So we were gonna do all of this in the middle of a beach club, which was an experience. And, um-

   13. JNJoe Navarro44:27

       (laughs)

   14. CWChris Williamson44:28

       ... you s- you're right, like, each time that they did it, it was the most i- painful thing that I'd ever felt. And-

   15. JNJoe Navarro44:33

       Yeah.

   16. CWChris Williamson44:34

       ... anyone that's listening that's never had alcohol on an open wound, it is, it, it bursts through the ceiling of what I thought my nerves could communicate. I thought, uh, I understand what pain is. I understand the amount of signals that a part of my body can send to my brain. Nah, fuck off. This can go completely (laughs) through the ceiling. So the-

   17. JNJoe Navarro44:51

       Yeah, it's, it's like putting a cigarette out on your skin.

   18. CWChris Williamson44:54

       Dude, it was, it was insane. So he does the first one, and I'm, I'm like, this is... I, I can't believe how painful this is, and then he puts a bit of dressing on, and then the next one happens, and the first one's stopped. And I... It, it was, it was kind of interesting to see that sort of discrete pain, uh, receptor going. Also, the funniest part of it, whenever I look back, the guy that was doing it was being very kind, had, had ruined at least an hour of our day 'cause I'd come off this bike, and he was gonna have to spend his time, as opposed to speaking to the pretty girls in the beach club, he was gonna have to clean me up. Um, (laughs) as he was doing it, he knew it was hurting me, and I was, like, gritting my teeth, and like, continuing to drink beer in between it. Uh, and all that he kept on saying was, "I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm so sorry." And I was like, "Yeah, I know, but you have to do it. So just keep on doing it. I appreciate you doing this." He's like, "Yeah, I know, but I'm just so sorry." (laughs)

   19. JNJoe Navarro45:41

       (laughs)

   20. CWChris Williamson45:41

       Inflicting pain on me in the middle of this beach club. Um, so yeah, I see, I see that, and the way that it happens. Another thing there, th- they got to a point that when he did my foot, which was basically the entire top of my foot had come off, it was so painful that I started laughing. I, I, I... That was, that was the level of pain that it got to. I, I s- I burst out laughing. It, it almost didn't hurt, because I was like, "This is so painful, it's ridiculous." It's absolutely absur- absurd.

   21. JNJoe Navarro46:10

       It's insan- insanity.

   22. CWChris Williamson46:10

       Totally, totally absurd. And, um, yeah, for some reason I started laughing, which was-

   23. JNJoe Navarro46:15

       That, that's, that's interesting.

   24. CWChris Williamson46:17

       ... yeah, a, a bright point. Um-

   25. JNJoe Navarro46:17

       Yeah, by the way, I don't, I don't, uh... I was also a, a medic in the, in the bureau. Don't, don't put alcohol on an open wound.

   26. CWChris Williamson46:25

       (laughs)

   27. JNJoe Navarro46:25

       It's, it's, it's-

   28. CWChris Williamson46:25

       Dude, I mean, I was, I was dealing with people that were-

   29. JNJoe Navarro46:28

       Yeah.

   30. CWChris Williamson46:28

       ... riggers, that had taken a first aid course, talking to someone that's never taken any. So they were, they were doing their best. Did you, did you... Did I just hear you right, say that you were part of the team that surveilled the Bonanno crime family?
7. 50:15 – 1:10:36

   How to De-escalate & Control Situations

   1. JNJoe Navarro50:15

   2. CWChris Williamson50:15

      Let's say that someone's having a conversation with an interlocutor, and it's getting a little bit heated, or you can't really get that other person to, to communicate in an effective way. What are some of the strategies that people could use to improve their communication in that situation, to kind of deescalate it, to bring it down, and to start getting everyone at the table again?

   3. JNJoe Navarro50:35

      Uh, are you gonna, are you gonna try this at one of the football games there and, uh ... (laughs)

   4. CWChris Williamson50:39

      That's not going to happen. I work in a lot of nightclubs, though.

   5. JNJoe Navarro50:42

      (laughs)

   6. CWChris Williamson50:42

      So I stand on the front door of a lot of nightclubs, and-

   7. JNJoe Navarro50:44

      Yeah, I'm sure.

   8. CWChris Williamson50:44

      ... very many times people say, "Why am I not coming in?" "Well, it's because you don't have any identification." "Well, I've got a photo of it on my phone." "I'm sorry, I can't accept that." Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

   9. JNJoe Navarro50:54

      It... This is such a, a, a big issue now, because, uh, we seem to be more intolerant. We, we seem to be lacking the, uh, the social skills that we once had. One of the things that, that I try to tell people is that distance always helps, uh, angling away, right? So this is very intense, but if you angle away, if you can create some space, um, e- even something as subconscious as doing a artificial, um, uh, cathartic exhale, where you go (exhales) , right? Just doing that exhale lets the other person, uh, know at a subconscious level that things need to calm down. I, I learned that trick, uh, when I was going through, uh, paramedic training at Roosevelt Roads Naval Hospital in Puerto Rico. And the ER doctor said, he, he didn't remember where he had learned it. He said, "But a lot of times you come in and the family members are all upset because their son or daughter is injured." And he says, "I just found that by exhaling, taking a deep breath and exhaling, then it somehow got other people to, to calm down." And I, I've used it ever since. I, I didn't create this. I, you know, uh, but I've certainly used it, and there's something about that, that, that helps to, to calm things down. The other thing is, that antagonizes us is too much eye contact. Uh, so, uh, reducing the eye contact. So, uh, as you said, you're working at, at the front door, uh, maybe looking over the person or just, just around the nose area, but not that direct eye contact, um, sometimes helps. But, uh, you know, there, there are people who either have so much alcohol in them, or, um, you know, or they're just em- really emotionally unstable. And you just have to be aware that there are limits to what we can do, you know, to the softer voice, to the deeper voice, um, you know. Whether we say stop with our fingers, uh, together, or, or we spread them out and say, "No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Slow down." Um, it doesn't work that way. Um, there, there's things we, we, we can do, sure.

   10. CWChris Williamson53:27

       It's a baptism of fire doing de-escalation on the front door of a nightclub. The degree to which people's rationality has been completely divorced is... It's a sight to behold, man. Like, y- you know, girls, girls tend to get either indignant or hysterical, um, if they've been... The, the typical one is they've had a bit too much to drink or they've been caught inside doing something that they shouldn't, and they get brought out by the door staff, and the door staff take them outside and say, "Look. That's, that's you for the nighttime. You're not coming back into this venue tonight." And what happens is the guys that stand on the front doors, so the door staff that stand next to me and my boys, um, they're the ones that deal with the yapping for however long it is. And yeah, there, there tends to be a bunch of different reactions from guys. It'll be, um... Usually try and be- give some sort of rational explanation to try and appeal to the rationality of the door staff, and then if that doesn't work, it goes to insults. Girls tend to, in my experience, be quite sort of indignant and can't believe that it's happened, and then it turns into hysterics. And this is... When people have had too much to drink, they're just so... Th- there's nothing that you can say. So, you know, all of the, all of the best ideas in the world, as you're talking about here, they, they just simply go out of the window. There really isn't much that you can do.

   11. JNJoe Navarro54:44

       Yeah, you're- then you're really limited. Um, you know, now you've- you've- you've got, uh, um, if you're lucky, it's- it's alcohol. If- if you're pe- dealing with people that are on some bizarre homemade drug, uh, it can be really scary because, uh, so-sometimes they- they- they present as having no fear. They don't mind escalating. Uh, I mean, I-

   12. CWChris Williamson55:10

       But you basically say you're not talking to a person anymore. The- the- the rules and the procedures that you have in your head aren't the game that that person is playing anymore.

   13. JNJoe Navarro55:19

       Well, we- we see that with, uh, you know, with- with- with these, uh, I guess, the- the term that's often used at these games, these hooligans who... I mean, they just, they're almost reptilian. They- they- they just wanna fight, scratch, hurt, um, and- and- and they really have almost no conscience. And I- and I- and I've seen it where one- one, you know, eight hours earlier, they were fine, and now, th- they're so inflamed that, uh... And- and it doesn't help that they're surrounded by their buddies that are, uh, th-

   14. CWChris Williamson55:54

       Crowd mentality. Crowd mentality plus a little bit of inebriation is a hell of a drug. Hell of a drug.

   15. JNJoe Navarro56:00

       It's scary. It- it can be, uh, be scary. Um, I- I talked to a woman once who was the- the door person. She was a, we call them the- the bouncer. And, um, and she- sh- uh, in fact, I- I talked to her not that (laughs) long ago, but she had told me this story two years ago. And- and she said, "Yeah, once they start drinking, it's a problem, but, you know, I try to address it as early as possible." That, um, when I'm in that line, I don't wait till they're right in front of me. If I can begin to address things while they're still further behind, I will say, "No," (laughs) , y- "you know, so-and-so, you know that you're barred from this. The- don't even bother, uh, coming in." So she tries to address it as far out. And- and she's not a, uh, you know, she's slight-built woman, but, um, you know, she's t- (laughs) as we say, she's a- a tough as woodpecker lips. Uh, you don't wanna, um, (laughs) you don't wanna piss her off.

   16. CWChris Williamson57:09

       That works really well. So we have a doorman doing what we call scanning. So he'll move up and down the queue. A lot of our events are for students. And then sometimes there'll just be a group of guys on a stag party that are 40 years old, and the guy will just move down the queue, and we'll- we will try and get them before they get to the front, because when you're at the front, there's- it f- almost feels like a stage, so the pressure's turned up a little bit. And if you have to turn people away there, plus they've wasted more time standing in the queue, which makes them predisposed to be a bit pissy. So yeah, we, um, we use that, and it works. It seems to work really well. Talking about, um, having someone angle their body away, uh, I'm friends with a guy called Dr. Stu McGill, who's a- a- the world's expert in lower back pain, incredibly good physician, unbelievable. Uh, and he... I- I went to go and see him in Canada. I went to go and get an assessment off him after I'd had him on the show, and I went and stayed with him, and went fishing and stuff. And when he sat me down, he- he gave me, like, the full monte of his experience when you do a- an assessment. And the way that he has his living room constructed is that he has a single chair, a very nice, comfortable single chair, and that's where the client sits. And then he has an adjacent, so forward and to the side-

   17. JNJoe Navarro58:18

       Sure.

   18. CWChris Williamson58:18

       ... he has a couch. So it's like an L, but there's no L on it. And you're sat at the foot of the L-

   19. JNJoe Navarro58:23

       Yeah.

   20. CWChris Williamson58:23

       ... and he's sat on the upright part. And then directly opposite-

   21. JNJoe Navarro58:26

       Got it.

   22. CWChris Williamson58:26

       ... where you're sat, he's got a fireplace. Yeah. And the fireplace is always on. Uh, and he was talking to me afterward, and he'd said that throughout all of his time as a clinician, testing and split testing, and trying to get people to open up about their, um, imbalances and the way that they move and stuff like that, he found that by having them sat looking forward, looking at a fireplace, and him just sat to one side, still speaking to them, still facing them, but not directly facing them, he found that that really got people to open up. Uh, it's interesting that you have that same- that same insight as well.

   23. JNJoe Navarro58:58

       Well, I- I would- I would add even this, uh, further, um, and I- I- I agree with that completely. You know, I- one of the things that I had to do was t- to get people to confess to being spies. That's a tough job because all the evidence is overseas, right? And the- and the Russians, uh, they weren't particularly keen on helping us out, so they're not gonna give us the evidence back. So, um, getting people to confess was, uh, wa- was not easy. But what I found was that, um, the most success, uh, I- I had was not interviewing people in an office setting or in an interview room. Um, first of all, most interview rooms aren't designed by people who know anything about interviewing, so you see them sitting across from each other. Um, most- most of the espionage interviews that I did, uh, without exception, were usually in hotel rooms that we rented for that purpose. And we always sat either, uh, on a couch or a combination of couch and- and chairs, but we never sat across from each other. We always sat at angles. And, um, I was criticized a lot by a lot of the old-timers. And, you know, they would say, "Well, just bring them in and, you know, sit them in across from you," and- and it's (laughs) you don't understand.

   24. CWChris Williamson1:00:30

       Tell them what's what.

   25. JNJoe Navarro1:00:32

       Yeah. Y- you don't understand. I'm- I'm- I'm doing interviews that will last, uh, six, seven hours, and I don't- and I want this person to- to- to open up, and, um, and that's- and that's how I did it. Um-I, I understood, a-as I'm sure your, your doctor friend understood, that too much eye contact affects interviewing. That allowing the person to drift off, to be comfortable, to, um, be reflective i- is often better than, um, you know, than what you see on, uh, on television. And, um, and I still teach that. When I teach interviewing I, you know, I, I say, "Please do not sit directly in front." It's, it's actually easier to resist someone when they're in front of you. Right? You say, "No." And I say, "No? (laughs) You're telling me no?" You know, it's easier to fend somebody off than somebody who's next to you. (laughs) Somebody who's next to you, it's pretty tough to, to argue with them. It's like, w-we're both on the same side. And that's what I try to create, that, uh, you know ... Look, the documents are already on the other side. That's, that's already taken place. Now how do we work our way through this? Because the federal government's not gonna go away. The FBI's not going away. I'm not going away. And you're sitting next to me. So how do we g- how do we move forward? And it was always amazing to me how people are willing to, "Okay, well, (laughs) we somehow have to work our way through this," where if you put them in front, oh, it's so much easier to resist somebody. Um, yeah.

   26. CWChris Williamson1:02:22

       How can people become better at small talk?

   27. JNJoe Navarro1:02:26

       That's tough for me because I, I'm actually an introvert and, uh, and I find, you know, groups, um, a, a challenge. Uh, the easiest way is do not talk about yourself. I, when, when I'm at a party or with a group, I don't wanna talk about myself. I know what I've done. (laughs) I, I really don't. What I wanna know is what do you do? What are you interested in? W- uh, there's a park nearby here and, and sometimes I, I'll take the dog there and I wanna know what everybody does. And I'm fascinated that one guy's an attorney, but he's really into photography. The other one is a grandmother and, uh, and she's, uh, really int- into her grandkids more than she is into her own daughter. I ... That's what I wanna know about. I w- I wanna know about them. I want, I wanna know all the little things that they've found, what, what movies they're watching and, and so forth. I think it's really easy, um, if, if you can just at some point turn it so that we're talking about them. Um, I think it's a little harder for me because somebody will say, "Oh, this is Joe Navarro. He's a, he's an author and ... " you know, I, I d- I don't wanna talk about that. I, I really, I really wanna talk about what other people, uh, uh, think.

   28. CWChris Williamson1:03:54

       What if you come up against someone who is another you, though? Because then you're going to ask them questions about them and they're gonna go, "I don't wanna talk about me, Joe."

   29. JNJoe Navarro1:04:02

       (laughs)

   30. CWChris Williamson1:04:02

       "I wanna know about you and your illustrious history."
8. 1:10:36 – 1:13:06

   Designing an Unexceptional Person

   1. JNJoe Navarro1:10:36

   2. CWChris Williamson1:10:36

      We've talked about being exceptional today. What would you do ... How would you design a person if you wanted to make someone as unexceptional as possible? What would be the personality traits and the characteristics and the world view that someone would have that is the complete antithesis of what you are trying to achieve?

   3. JNJoe Navarro1:10:54

      Not curious. A, a person that is completely not curious about anything. Not themselves, not the world around them, that think they know it all, think it all, uh, and so forth. Someone who is, uh, rigid in their thinking, who is uncompromising, who is unwilling to make any sacrifice and wants everything handed to them. Um, someone who has no empathy. Someone who takes no action when action is needed, who has no concept of providing a comfort for others. I've never been asked this question, Chris. I think it's a profound way to ask that question, uh, and I thank you for it. That is the antithesis and, and, and when you, when you say it that way, you think, "Oh my gosh. There are people like that." And they're horrible. They, they're so rigid in their thinking. They're unyielding. They're not curious at all. They, they don't wanna know anything about you. They don't wanna explore the world around them. Everything is, uh, is so rigid and suspicious and, and they don't wanna take any action to, to um, to, to help. That is the antithesis of um, of the exceptional. Because y- the exceptional really are about, um, providing psychological comfort. They, you know, uh, th- they're about helping themselves, but not at the expense of others. Um, they want everybody to, to succeed. They want everybody to have fun, to, to enjoy life and, um, and I think that's what really sets exceptional people a- a- a- apart.

   4. CWChris Williamson1:12:58

      Joe Navarro, ladies and gentlemen. Be Exceptional: Master the Five Traits That Set Extraordinary People Apart, will be linked in the show notes below. And

9. 1:13:06 – 1:13:55

   Where to Find Joe

   1. CWChris Williamson1:13:06

      if people wanna check out what else you do, where should they go?

   2. JNJoe Navarro1:13:09

      Uh, please, uh, come to my website, joenavarro.net, and, uh, there you can see all my books and videos and, uh, soon they'll see my interview with you, Chris. (laughs)

   3. CWChris Williamson1:13:21

      Exciting. The- obviously the pinnacle of your career so far. Uh, Joe, thanks very much for this.

   4. JNJoe Navarro1:13:26

      I, I've gotta e- thank ... I gotta tell you, you're one of the best, uh, uh, interviewers that, that I've dealt with. I love your, your questions, so thank you.

   5. CWChris Williamson1:13:35

      Thank you. What's happening people? Thank you very much for tuning in. If you enjoyed that episode, then press here for a selection of the best clips from the podcast over the last few weeks. And don't forget to subscribe. Peace.

Episode duration: 1:13:55