Andy Ngo - Antifa Unmasked: Inside America's Anarchy | Modern Wisdom Podcast 275

1. 0:00 – 2:22

   Intro

   1. ANAndy Ngo0:00

      On many levels, I think there are a lot of Democrats whose hatred for Donald Trump and his administration and his supporters overshadowed their support and love for their country in standing up for the rule of law and standing up for America's institutions.

   2. CWChris Williamson0:19

      Was getting people to scream, "Stop selling Andy Ngo's book," in your hometown a part of your marketing strategy? Because it's pretty good free advertising.

   3. ANAndy Ngo0:29

      Uh, it was not part of the strategy, but, uh, a lot of people did end up hearing about the book because of the six-day effort by Antifa to get it banned, which, uh, unfortunately was partially successful in that Portland's largest bookstore, uh, immediately came out and said they would not stock it on its shelves. Eh, and this is a bookstore, by the way, um, a very popular Portland institution that every year dedicates, um, a week to books that are censored and banned. So, um, there's sad irony there.

   4. CWChris Williamson1:03

      Too banned to be part of the unbanned book week?

   5. ANAndy Ngo1:08

      Correct.

   6. CWChris Williamson1:08

      That's serious. But obviously, the elephant in the room is that almost everyone's gonna buy your book from Amazon or Barnes & Nobles or whatever.

   7. ANAndy Ngo1:18

      Yeah. I hope so. And I, I mean, I'm just, you know, the goal is to get people informed about what's happening. And I think there's a lot of, um, misconceptions about Antifa, Antifa out there from both the left and the right. And, uh, this book tries to explain in, in one place where people can understand, um, the ideology, the history, and how they organize and what, what all that comes together actually looks like in practice. So I go into detail, particularly of what happened in the Pacific Northwest of the United States throughout 2020. Uh, my home city of Portland, which I've had to flee because of death threats against me, we had, um, more than 120 nightly days of violence. So, uh, in your country, Britain, you had sporadic violence that happened, uh, last year. Um, imagine if that was reoccurring day after day after day for months on end, and that's what happened in my city. And it's still ongoing.

   8. CWChris Williamson2:15

      (sighs) It's terrifying, man. So let's start. Who are Antifa?

2. 2:22 – 7:49

   Who are Antifa?

   1. ANAndy Ngo2:22

      The Antifa claim to be anti-fascists. Uh, they're actually anarchist communists who are really working to destabilize governments, particularly the jurisdictions in the United States, because they want to ultimately overthrow the US. So they take inspiration from historical anarchist communist communes, and they try to carry out these experiments wherever they can. And to do so in America was always a pipe dream for them, given how strong law enforcement institutions are, and the military, et cetera. But in 2020, things just completely was flipped upside down when after George Floyd died, then the, every excuse on the fringe extreme far left to carry out violence was excused in the mainstream left. And it was in that context that Antifa, BLM, for example, in Seattle, uh, the largest city in the Pacific Northwest, they actually claimed sovereign territory, or territory that they said was sovereign, from the United States for more than three weeks. And they actually had the blessing of the city council as well as the mayor. And immediately this, despite what the media was saying, describing it as a block party, summer of love, um, I spent time there a week undercover. I write about that in the book. Um, it devolved, um, within days into an area where there were shootings and people ended up getting killed and murdered there.

   2. CWChris Williamson3:57

      What's the end goal that Antifa want?

   3. ANAndy Ngo4:03

      Antifa's vision of so-called anti-fascism means a world without nation states, without borders, without capitalism, because, and this is where their ideology is very based on these old left-wing theories, particularly, um, critical theories of where these are, there are these interlocking systems of repression. So they believe, for example, the US is a fascist imperialistic state because it's a state that propagates capitalism around the world. And capitalism, uh, uh, is what is linked to white supremacy and racism and fascism as well. So they're wanting to end not just the United States, but I think more what we're seeing now, like where they're actually having success, is delegitimizing and attacking systematically the ideas that make up the United States or actually any Western liberal democracy. So they go extremely hard against freedom of expression. That's one of their core tenets. That's why they carry out acts of wanton political violence against their political opponents, because in their, um, redefini- remaking of words, um, violence is not actual violence. It's having the wrong idea. So when they are attacking people that they accuse of being fascist or white supremacists, um, and they use that label on anyone, by the way.

   4. CWChris Williamson5:34

      (laughs)

   5. ANAndy Ngo5:34

      Um, in their mind, they call it self-defense, because if you have the idea, uh, that they called fa- fascist, that is an attack on them. Therefore, they need to preemptively physically attack you and destroy property. And, you know, this is all, it's, it's, you know, it would be l- like, I would like to just laugh because it's so outrageous and obviously, um, a, a charade and a farce, but, a farce, but, um, unfortunately they've been given...... legitimacy in our papers and record in, um, in, in your country as well as mine. And people who are on the left but not the extreme fringe far left have become allies with them because they really do think that, uh, when Trump was elected, that that was, um, (smacks lips) ascendant American fascism, that we were on the precipice of another holocaust. All of this is bogus. Uh, you know, it was, um, just, uh, a pretense for them to carry out their agendas of destabilizing governments, local, local governments, and they've been able to do that with quite success. Um, and I'm not exaggerating when I'm saying, and you can... readers can see in the book how because the local officials gave them the space to do what they were doing for so long throughout 2020, they really have created and embedded these networks and systems to maintain riots ongoing because that does take a lot of organizing. It takes times, it takes connections, it takes people, it takes money, all of that whi- which they've been able to establish. And they've been trying to export these bloop, um, bloop, um, these prints and plans, um, to other cities, which is why, uh, later on after George Floyd died, in later months when there was rioting in Wisconsin, some of the people who were arrested there drove all the way or flew in from other parts of the country like the Pacific Northwest.

3. 7:49 – 15:49

   Antifa’s Reaction to Biden

   1. ANAndy Ngo7:50

   2. CWChris Williamson7:50

      It's interesting to me to hear you talk about the potential origin of the mainstream of Antifa in the US being Trump's election back in 2016, 2017. But what do you think Antifa thinks of Joe Biden? There was probably a hope that after Biden won the election, perhaps the Antifa violence would calm down.

   3. ANAndy Ngo8:15

      Yeah. So that didn't happen, uh, where now, um, many weeks into 2021, uh, months after Trump had won the election in November and there's been more than a dozen riots that have happened in the Pacific Northwest. Um, some people were surprised. They thought, "Oh, these are Dem- uh, these are Biden supporters." No, they're not, actually. If you look at what they say, look at their banners. For example, one of the banners that they carried on the, uh, their inauguration day riot in Portland was a larger one that said, "We don't want Biden. We want revenge." And there's a large image of a Kalashnikov rifle, um, if that wasn't subtle enough. Um, and so they don't recognize the American government, period. They're working to overthrow it. They don't recognize any president, the legitimacy of any president. So that means opposing... before the current administration, yes, opposing Trump, but opposing any administration that would replace Trump anyways because they don't see the US government as legitimate. They view it as a fascist state that must be overthrown. So, this is what I mean when I say that people on the mainstream left who have been feeding and feeding and growing this beast because they shared a mutual enemy in the Trump administration or against Republicans, whatever, well, now this beast is too big to slay. And we've seen the violence that they've carried out. They've attacked, they've assaulted the mayor of Portland. The mayor of Portland, Ted Wheeler, is somebody who gave them the space to grow under his watch and they've turned around and have attacked him. They showed up to the homes of people on city council, uh, in Portland, for example, who, uh, voted against, um, defunding the police. So... And the thing is, they're not getting held accountable when they're carrying out these criminal activities. It's not just that they're doing it, it's that they're doing it and then doing it over and over and over because there's no consequence. So one of the projects that I'm known for is getting the, uh, the public records of people who were arrested at riots and we have now a sample size in just in Portland of around a thousand cases. And the overwhelming majority, by that I mean more than 90%, had the charges immediately dropped by the prosecutor who is a politician. It's an elected position who campaigned on a so-called progressive platform and as soon as he came into office last summer, he, um, literally decriminalized felony rioting. That was one of the things that w- will be automatically discharged. So, um, like, this is the reality of what's happening in parts of America. Um, it's not hyperbole when the DOJ last year described some parts of the US as an- as anarchist jurisdictions, because you do have a breakdown of the rule of law and the system's not working and these extremists are exploiting civil rights, human rights to carry out their wanton violence in the name of free speech and right to protest. And unfortunately, they've been given cover. You know, I keep going back to the media because they wouldn't have been able to do so much damage if there wasn't this Antifa talking point that was mainstream which claims that, um, people over property, that the looting and breaking and starting fires and destroying buildings and businesses, that's not violence because, uh, it's on an inanimate object. Like, this is... Like Portland is really a fir- first world slum if you go to its downtown. Like-... they're trying to create an environment where people don't have trust in law enforcement on one level, and two, law enforcement just don't have the resources to even respond to crimes that are happening in the cities. We have a huge uptick in most, uh, American urban areas in v- in, in violence. Um, police officers, uh, across many, many departments are resigning in droves or taking early retirement. So, um, all of the conditions that allowed things to get so bad in 2020, they're all still there and Trump was never a real variable. That was just a convenient excuse.

   4. CWChris Williamson13:00

      That's terrifying, man. There's so many points that I agree with there, specifically talking about how allowing them to, uh, embed in, create these organizational structures and also sort of the intellectual structures, understanding how they need to develop and then writing up... You go through basically a curriculum in the book of how they indoctrinate and train new members into Antifa, but it's kind of the same way that a cancer grows. You know, if it's just one cell that turns, the other cells around it can attack. But after a little bit of time, if you get too many cells, they can metastasize and actually turn into a genuine cancer, and that's a much bigger operation to try and get rid of, and it seems to be the same. I mean, a, a first world slum in somewhere like Portland, and wasn't it the homicide rate increased by 200%, the most it's been in a number of decades, something like that?

   5. ANAndy Ngo13:54

      Correct. That's right. That came during the height of the riots. So we've been having this unperecented (laughs) , unprecedented level rise in shootings and gun-related homicides in Portland, and this has been... Like, Antifa have been celebrating this. They're really happy, um, because the whole... They want... They say they want to abolish the American criminal justice system, abolish police and all that, but what they essentially want to be is to replace the police with their own paramilitary-type groups. And, um, the cities under weak police leadership, under weak, um, city council and weak state leadership have allowed them to do it. And so I'm not over-exaggerating when I say that in last year in particular when the riots were happening every night, parts of downtown were literally no-go zones in that they had people patrolling, their own militias, people who were armed with weapons patrolling around to make sure that this huge part of downtown, right outside of one of the courthouses that they were trying weeks on end to burn down, um, that the only people who were there were their allies and supporters and members. So they've attacked countless number of press. Um, as many people know, they beat me severely in 2019 and gave me a brain hemorrhage. So, like, they don't even hide their extremism and the violence. It's not like they do it behind closed doors. They do it in the open and it gets captured on video. And still, people actually think that we're dealing with noble anti-fascists who are just opposing racists.

4. 15:49 – 18:57

   Intellectualising Violence

   1. CWChris Williamson15:49

      You said something in the book that I really thought was a good, a good quote. "The intellectualizing of their arguments tries to mask the ruthlessness of their worldview." Because it does have this... You remember when you were in school and there was always that, that kid that had lea- that was a bit of a quicker reader and maybe had a greater grasp of language and would try and flummox people in a, a schoolyard dispute. Say, "Well, a- a- actually your argument doesn't have very much internal validity there, my friend," and you're like, it just smacks massively of all of the people who couldn't climb up a status hierarchy normally in school and are now trying to cover over what is incredibly ruthless, very militant by using words that I don't think even they understand, they don't really make sense in the context that they're using them, they're born out of a bunch of very contradictory, uh, and self-deceiving, uh, philosophies, most of which I'm going to guess they might have read to tick the box on the curriculum and then left it. It seems very self-defeating and confused.

   2. ANAndy Ngo16:55

      Yeah. So their ideas are coherent in that they... these ideas are coming from 20th and 19th century philosophers, anarchists and communists, radical thinkers. Um, if you look at the original text, they're very long and can be confusing. So what they, what they, Antifa, do is they com- they compress those ideas into pamphlets, and this is, becomes the backbone of the radicaliza- radicalization literature that at all the riots they give out. When they were in the autonomous zone in Seattle, uh, CHAZ, um, they were giving out this literature. And it's actually very similar to how, like, the Muslim Brotherhood will radicalize their members. It's compressing, like, larger texts into these very easily quick reads that intellectualize political violence, intellectualize violence against the state. Um, some of them even give instructions on how to make weapons, um, how to seize territory. These are some of the things that I was seeing in CHAZ. So I was really shocked that the press at the time was just completely overlooking this ideological extremism that was being preached in the open there. Um, and, um, the... You mentioned the curriculum part, that's from Rose City Antifa, which is the largest and oldest Antifa organization in the US. They're in Portland. Go figure. And you'll see that...... in every single way, they are a formal organization and, and the book details it. But like, there's, um, a recruitment process, there's a vetting process, there's training, there's curriculum, there's reading, there's discussions. All these are done secretively. And, uh, one of the places they did it was a feminist bookstore. So, like, they, they do a lot of activities in the open that we can see that are criminal, and they do a lot of other things behind closed doors. And this book shines a light on both.

5. 18:57 – 21:31

   Who is Antifa’s Leader?

   1. CWChris Williamson18:57

      The pamphlets sound like TikTok for anarchist philosophers, not just condensing things down into the most easy to read, palatable way that they can do it. You mentioned about the structure, and I think that it's interesting looking at the structure of Antifa. Does it actually have a leader? Is it a single entity?

   2. ANAndy Ngo19:21

      It is not a single entity. So when Christopher Wray, who is the lead- uh, the head of the, uh, FBI, when he gave testimony and said Antifa is not an organization, he's technically correct, but he should have followed that up by saying, "But there are many Antifa groups and organizations who do share the same ideology, whether they have Antifa in the name or not, and they are connected to net- linking networks." So that's why you can have rioters from Portland or Seattle know how to link with the anarchist communists who are in Wisconsin, which is thousands and thousands of miles away, or link with the extremist Antifa in DC, very far away as well. So he should have followed up on that. So... But th- that's the thing, it is networks of decentralized groups which makes taking them out much harder. Um, but we're not even anywhere even near that step because people... Law enforcement, federal law enforcement, um, publicly at least, I don't know what they're doing behind the scenes, but I don't, I don't think they're even at the stage of where they even recognize that there are these networks of groups that are connected, that do encrypted communications through Signal and Telegram. They do things that pretty much a lot of the jihadists do. They... I mean, it's not a coincidence that their uniforms look similar. I mean, it's meant to instill fear in the public, in addition to being able to carry out acts of criminality, um, with the cloak of anonymity. So, um, I've, I'm... I've been disappointed in the, the federal, uh, law enforcement response under the Trump administration, and, um, I don't... You know, I have no confidence that federal officials under the Biden administration-

   3. CWChris Williamson21:22

      I was gonna say, do you think it's-

   4. ANAndy Ngo21:24

      ... will take this threat seriously.

   5. CWChris Williamson21:24

      ... do you think it's gonna get any better?

   6. ANAndy Ngo21:26

      No.

   7. CWChris Williamson21:27

      (laughs) I can... (laughs) I could... You gotta laugh, man.

6. 21:31 – 23:39

   The CHAZ Garden

   1. CWChris Williamson21:31

      Yeah, it's, um, it's so smart in one way. For all that you can see it's self-contradictory and they can't run a city to save their lives literally, 'cause people were dying inside of it and they had no running water, and there was that plant, that vegetable plot that stopped within the spa-... All of the plants died within two days. And you're like, I can, I can keep a plant alive for longer than two days, right? Like, and I'm, I'm very not green-fingered. Uh, but yet there's certain elements of their operation that are incredibly sophisticated, and all of the benefits that you see from, uh, decentralized cryptocurrencies, for instance, where it's not held on one server, it's very, very difficult to take down, you have the security, everything's backed up across multiple locations. You've basically got that ideologically with Antifa.

   2. ANAndy Ngo22:21

      Yeah. I'm, I'm glad you brought up the thing about the garden because it is, it's amazing on, uh, you know, uh, just looking at it. But also it, it's an anecdote that is actually what I've seen repeated over and over in that when it comes to building, um, being productive, anything like that, they cannot do it. And yet they claim they want to establish a utopia by abolishing, uh, the system. The, the system being everything about the United States. But what they are really extremely good at is destruction and creating misery. That's what they, uh... That's all they can really do. And that's... So you notice when they are most successful, it's in carrying out acts of political violence and rioting and arson attacks and homicides. Um, that's what they're really good at. When it comes to actually building their own communes that they purport to be working towards, it leads nowhere. You know, uh, CHA is essentially was a... It was a wealth- welfare state that depended on donations from foolish liberals who were pouring in tens of thousands of dollars into these Venmos and Cash Apps so that people would bring in bottled water and food 24/7 in tents.

7. 23:39 – 26:21

   Reaction if Trump Had Won

   1. CWChris Williamson23:40

      Do you think Antifa would have rioted outside the Capitol if Trump had won?

   2. ANAndy Ngo23:45

      Yes. I think the violence that we saw in response to, um, the death of George Floyd would have been repeated and may have been even amplified because the... I mean, they were given, uh, essentially the okay from Democrats. So, uh, they would have had liberals who were supporting that riot should Trump were to win. Um, and I think the... You know, one thing about the response to the election, let's say, from the right, particularly on the 6th of January when there was a Capitol Hill siege, like, I, um...I was furious seeing these hollow condemnations from Democrats. People who were describing it essentially as another 9/11 in America, when those acts of violence against the state and worse, were carried out night after night after night in other major American cities by Antifa and BLM. These people were encouraging of it. Or, um, they actually even would, were sending out some of the links to the crowdfunding campaigns. Kamala Harris did that, people who worked on the Joe Biden presidential campaign did that. Um, so what happened at the Capitol should absolutely be condemned, but those same acts were done in Portland and worse actually, because the people in Portland, over time they became more sophisticated and they kept returning. They would bring different weapons, they would bring explosives, they brought knives, they brought guns, um, projectiles. I write about all of their, um, acts of terrorism in the book. And they even brought, I think what was most shocking was seeing them bring power tools so they could try to cut into the building so that... And they tried on more than one occasion to barricade the building that, and I'm talking about the federal courthouse in downtown. So this is a federal property in Portland, so that's comparable to the federal property in DC. These people actually tried to barricade law enforcement, federal law enforcement inside and tried to set the building on fire so they could kill everybody inside. This is the types of acts that they were doing and the way the media were covering at the time were describing law enforcement as Trump's, uh, secret police, Trump's Gestapo, an occupying force, people who were hurting peaceful protesters.

8. 26:21 – 34:41

   Antifa Riots Vs Capitol Riots

   1. ANAndy Ngo26:21

   2. CWChris Williamson26:22

      What's the difference? Like I know the left at the moment seems to be in with the media and it's just a lot cooler and it more easily accepted the talking points that come from the left. It seems that the left is affiliated with compassion, whereas the right is affiliated with bigotry, at least in the legacy media. But what is it? Why, why is it that you get so much condemnation for the Capitol Hill riots and you get so much omission for what Antifa were doing?

   3. ANAndy Ngo26:56

      It's because on many levels I think there are a lot of Democrats who, whose hatred for Donald Trump and his administration and his supporters overshadowed their support and love for their country in standing up for the rule of law and standing up for America's institutions. Um, I don't feel good saying that because, um, you know, I try to be bi- bipartisan in my outreach. And a lot of this book I'm hoping will reach people on the left so they can recognize the threat that Antifa poses to American liberalism. Um, but just this pure hatred of, uh, the former president and what they thought he stood for just, in their eyes, legitimized all these acts of extremism. And so, um, what's worse is I think like a certain precedent has been set. 'Cause obviously, if you... Um, I've talked to people, uh, who are sympa- who were or are sympathetic to the right wing siege on Capitol Hill. And one of the responses... And it wasn't, it didn't just happen in, in DC. There were other similar like violent protests at other state capitols by Trump supporters on that day and before that. And the people who are expressing support for that, their view is, well, if Antifa and BLM get to riot over their cause and nothing gets, they uh, face no legal consequence, they aren't condemned or praised, well, why do we have to be peaceful then? So this is the thing too, like Antifa creates reactionary forces as well. And they know that actually, which is why, I mean, everything about them, their existence, they have to justify by saying that they're in opposition to something. That's why there's an anti in front of their name. So they do work to radicalize people on the far right, I think. Um, they work to terrorize people at their homes, at their places of employments, get them fired, get them pushed off mainstream platforms and pushed into really scary places on the internet. And it's like Antifa are creating the things that they say they're there to fight actually.

   4. CWChris Williamson29:31

      Absolutely. I had a, uh, I did a video about this the other week talking about the tit for tat mentality. You do this to me and then I come back as slightly, slightly more tough to you and then a little bit more tough to me, and then so on and so forth. And it's just this endless spiral that I don't think is going to slow down. The elephant in the room is that fascists and white supremacists are not around every corner, like they're, they're, they're just not. And the fact that you have this culpable accusatory game where you can say, "Well that's, that's because of your implicit white supremacy. That's because you're being willfully ignorant about it." That's essentially just, um, allowing the theory to never be falsified, but they're not around every corner. And one thing that other people have commented on as well is if Antifa do get themselves to the stage where they really, really rile up the right, like there are some people on the right who are incredibly scary, they're significantly more trained.... and they have a lot more guns. Like the people on the right-

   5. ANAndy Ngo30:35

      Yep.

   6. CWChris Williamson30:35

      ... were originally the military th- threat. A lot of them are going to be ex-military. Uh, I think you saw that with some of the stats from arrests over the last couple of weeks, that a lot of them did have military backgrounds. If it comes to a war between the two of them, which hopefully it won't, but if it does, I really fear for Antifa's hopes because there's some lethal weapons coming from the right.

   7. ANAndy Ngo31:01

      Yeah. So, they recognize that certain threat. Uh, they recognize that they ra- they're radicalizing people on the far right, and the far right, some of them are armed. But their response has been not to end the cycle of polarization, radicaliza- counter-radicalization, their response is, "We're gonna arm up too." So you see, um, I write about in the book, like this, um, they don't eschew guns or anything like that. At, at their riots, people are coming there armed. Many of them have been arrested for illegally carrying loaded pistols. Um, they carry rifles openly. When they had CHAZ, for example, they had their militia guard- guarding their hard borders and these people were armed with rifles, revolvers, pistols, et cetera. Um, part of progressive anti-fa, part of the training process included, um, how to shoot guns and such. So, um, they're preparing themselves for war, not just a war against the state, but war against people on the far right or the mili- the militarized right, whatever. So, um, and, um, they're not afraid to kill and ... But, um, as we've been discussing, they don't really have any metrics that are used to, um, differentiate, like differentiate against people who are, let's say a Trump supporter versus like somebody who's a neo-Nazi. They consider them all the same and they think the response, they can apply the same response to all of them. Which is why last summer in Portland at the height of the riots, they... One of the Antifa S- volunteered security shot and killed a Trump supporter and then fled the state and went into hiding. Uh, eventually was killed by federal authorities. Uh, he had a pistol on him at the time. In the car where he was shot and killed, there was a rifle. So, uh, I'm talking about Michael Reinoehl. But he's not the only Antifa who's killed; there's been other people as well. But we don't know their names or their stories because it doesn't fit this myopic focus that the mainstream press have on their reporting on extremism, which only focuses on right-wing extremism. And many times, they over exaggerate things as well, making people... Because, for example, this arming that Antifa does, they look at the reporting and all that and say, "Oh, see? Look at the threat of the far right. Look at the threat of the far right. That's why we need to arm up." So, um, it's like the media has been so complicit in creating this whole context for political violence to thrive, particularly on the far left. And when it's time to report accurately on the extremism of Antifa or BLM, they're not there to do it. Um, when Antifa tell live streamers and journalists, "You can't record us while we're rioting," they'll listen. So, a lot of the footage that we've been seeing, um, particularly in the past like five months or so, have been brave independent journalists who record secretively or with body cameras or they'll do it and then they get beat up for it. So, you know, whereas the legacy media, they'll, they won't go into there. They just won't even cover it. You know, they're still calling these rioters just protesters.

9. 34:41 – 43:42

   Going Undercover in CHAZ

   1. ANAndy Ngo34:42

   2. CWChris Williamson34:42

      You went undercover in the Capitol Hill Autonomous Zone and you talk in quite detail about what it felt like. Obviously, the last time that you were in a group like that, or one of the last times you were in a group like that, you were pretty badly beaten then developed a little bit of, uh, PTSD with regards to being in groups. (radio playing in background) You said that one of your friends convinced you that you should go. Uh, how much convincing did it take from that friend and then can you tell us about what it was like walking into CHAZ blacked up and obviously incredibly nervous?

   3. ANAndy Ngo35:16

      So, after I was beaten in the summer of 2019, which by the way, has led to no arrests, I still have had no justice, and that- part of that beating was actually caught on camera. But, um, that aside, um, I did develop an intense fear of being in public. Because when I was beaten, it was completely... It st- it started from behind, punches to the head, and there was just... And I was i- in front of essentially the main police station in downtown, so it happened within eyesight of law enforcement and it was right by all these courthouses, so it should be an area that is, you would think is safe to walk down in a, in the United States. But it wasn't. So, um, but, uh, yeah, fast-forward a year later and all of the various therapies that I've had to address some of the, um, cognitive, physical, psychological issues of the attack, um, the- this friend of mine was just, um, he was, he was encouraging me to go to CHAZ because it was such, like, a surreal, like, it was unbelievable what had happened.... like, we knew from looking at the real coverage of what Antifa were saying and putting out themselves, that this was a, a territory that they claimed, um, as separate from the US. It wasn't like just this block party that the press was re- um, claiming it to be. So, I was like ... For me, it was, I had that fear and I was like ... But I had to deal with it in ... anyway and to go up, 'cause I knew there wouldn't be very many people who would get the truth out. And, um, I wore their uniform and it was very terrifying at times to be so scrutinized because ... Just because you mask up and look like them, that doesn't make you, like, just one of them. They're suspicious 'cause they actually do know. They recognize, for example, the voice and body movements of their comrades. So if there's somebody in there who's dressed like one of them but, for example, is not participating in rioting or violence, they question that. So, uh, I spent five days, five days there. And unfortunately on my last day, I was outed, um, and I had to flee for my life literally, uh, from CHAZ. And the sad thing is this happened right in front of the, uh, east police station, but it, it was an aban- abandoned station. It was one where rioters had, um, caused the whole place to be barricaded up and police had completely evacuated from this whole six-block area in Seat- Seattle. So yeah, I spent, uh, nighttime there particularly, 'cause nighttime-

   4. CWChris Williamson38:12

      Where were you sleeping?

   5. ANAndy Ngo38:14

      Well, I ... So, I was, during the day, going to accommodation elsewhere and then at night, going into CHAZ.

   6. CWChris Williamson38:21

      Oh, so you went no- you went nocturnal for a week?

   7. ANAndy Ngo38:24

      Yes. Partly.

   8. CWChris Williamson38:25

      Only interesting, only interesting stuff happens at night.

   9. ANAndy Ngo38:28

      Yeah, because that's, that's when the, the press would leave. You know, the press would only stay there during the day. Ben & Jerry's was giving out free ice cream.

   10. CWChris Williamson38:37

       (laughs) I couldn't believe that. Free ice cream cones.

   11. ANAndy Ngo38:40

       Yeah. That's right. They did that all during the day. At night, this is when you would see, um, essentially warlord-like figures attempting to vie for control over the area. It-

   12. CWChris Williamson38:51

       There was d- uh, uh, drug kingpins and stuff like that, right? Rolling around in open-back trucks.

   13. ANAndy Ngo38:57

       There's people with criminal back- known criminal backgrounds who were going around with their own entourage of people who were carrying weapons, yes.

   14. CWChris Williamson39:06

       Fuck. So what else did you see on the nighttime? What did you see that hasn't been reported?

   15. ANAndy Ngo39:13

       Um, fights were breaking out all over. There wasn't unity in this area at all, because you had essentially, uh, different vying ideologies. So there were Antifa there, and they marked their territory all over with their symbols and graffiti calling for police to be killed. The BLM were more ... They viewed thems- selves as more along the lines of, like, revolutionary Marxists. Like ones that you saw in the '70s, like Black Panthers and stuff like that. So they weren't down with wanton property destruction. They didn't think that was useful. So they did e- that did cause some friction and it boiled over as well, and essentially, um ... Antifa won't admit this, but they're, they naturally racially segregated themselves in there. The white people who were in Antifa stayed, stood, um, stuck together as a clique, whereas the, uh, black Marxists, uh, they were together in their separate area. So, and you know, for this area that claimed to be founded on anti-racism and social justice, there was racial segregation, and then on top of that they had a 100% black homicide rate, 100% black shooting victim rate.

   16. CWChris Williamson40:36

       Talk to me about how you got discovered of being Andy Ngo.

   17. ANAndy Ngo40:44

       Um, that is a story that readers should look for in the book, 'cause I haven't really talked about it before. But I will say that it involved somebody that I had, um, written about before, um, a transactional Antifa militant, um, who has a criminal record and has been identified as being at many riots in the Seattle area. And so this individual was really scrutinizing my social media to sort of try to, um, work out and find out exactly where I was and all that. So these are ... And it wasn't just this individual. She was connected to a whole network of these online Antifa activists who were working trying to identify exactly where I was, and unfortunately, um, through my own experience, left certain crumbs that I've learnt, uh, to grow from. So they've become very, very good at identifying outsiders. It's actually really scary to go and record their riots, which is why you don't see a lot of videos coming out now, close up of them, like, destroying bus- businesses and properties. Um, it's been independent journalists who have come up with creative ways to record because it's so dangerous.

   18. CWChris Williamson42:05

       Well, it's not just that they found you. I saw a video on your YouTube of a guy who looks a little bit like you walking down the street and everyone's sticking their fingers up at him. It's so bad that someone that looks like Andy Ngo now is an enemy of Antifa.

   19. ANAndy Ngo42:23

       Yeah. So in Portland, I was undercover a lot, but they would never know when I was there or when I was not, so I had to change my tactics and come up with different ways. Um, and so ...... they were so overzealous in trying to track me down and find me that, uh, I believe on more than five occasions, they misidentified people on their side because m- that person was a male per- male of East Asian heritage that, you know, just based on sharing the same race as me, they thought was me.

   20. CWChris Williamson42:57

       (laughs)

   21. ANAndy Ngo42:58

       Uh, yeah. It, it's been very embarrassing for them because, you know, they say they're anti-racist and they just, they think that every Asian male-

   22. CWChris Williamson43:06

       The most pejorative thing in the world, yeah, every Asian male is Andy Ngo.

   23. ANAndy Ngo43:10

       Right.

   24. CWChris Williamson43:10

       There's this bit in that video where the guy's stood in front and he's saying, "You do realize why you're here? You're, y- you're being very racist and you're supposed to be anti-fascists. This is the second time that it's happened to me at a march." And this donkey of a girl stood next to the person holding the camera goes, "Well, it seems like you're doing it on purpose." And you're like, "Doing what on purpose? Being Asian." Like, "It seems like you're doing it on purpose." I couldn't believe it. (laughs)

10. 43:42 – 49:49

    Preying on the Young & Vulnerable

    1. CWChris Williamson43:42

       I, I, it's unbelievable. Um, what about the reasons that young people are getting attracted to this? Like, when I was 18 to 24, I wasn't really bothered about fighting for revolutionary capitalists throw, tear down with anarcho-communists. Like, I just wanted to go on a night out. Uh, why are people getting attracted to these movements?

    2. ANAndy Ngo44:04

       So broadly, um, I would divide the antifa militants into sort of two kinds. You have people, one side of them who are, um, in white collar, um, professions, and that's why I look into the backgrounds of the people who are arrested at these riots because sh- surprisingly or not, many of them are professors, academics, they're journalists, um, they work in medicine, um, there's even, was professors, there's been registered nurses. Things that people who are, like, doing respectable jobs, people who have families, people who are attorneys. These are people who have, uh, without exception, been exposed to radical left-wing ideologies through academe and it's just slipped... I mean, it's the whole takeover of the American academy, um, from, you know, it's not just the social sciences where you see it that, you know, you don't just have to be in, um, a queer studies program or a, um, indigenous studies program. You, you're seeing these ideologies also in medicine and such, in engineering and there's that. So these are, like, the intellectual pe- the people who have privilege of education and wealth and income, who think that they are, um, being important allies in this fight against fascism. And then the other side of antifa, um, includes people who are economically unstable, they're vagrants many of them, people dealing with mental health issues, people dealing with gender dysphoria. Disproportionately, you'll notice that many of them, um, I've discovered have relatively recently transitioned from agender to another one or back again or something like that. Um, so these are people who are not... uh, they're vulnerable, um, and some of their backgrounds actually are, are very sad. And-

    3. CWChris Williamson46:10

       And what are they looking for? Are they looking for belonging? Are they looking for a sense of cohesion?

    4. ANAndy Ngo46:16

       Well, this is the... so the psychological aspect I think of why vulnerable people are joining is because they had real grievances, right? Let's say they, unable to find work, they don't want to work, they, uh, have no money, they are dealing with all these issues personally. And instead of working on improving themselves and the people around them, they're taking it out, they're blaming society at large. So these are people who feel really justified in their destru- wanton destruction and looting and violence because they feel they've been wronged, and this is, this is why they... this theme of revenge repeats itself a lot in their chants and all that. Um, th- these are people who need help and instead they've been pulled into a violent extremist cult that promises to give them, that gives them community, it gives them a new purpose in life. Um, it also makes the villains into the heroes. I mean, I think these people probably recognize on one level that they're really hurting their communities when they do this, they go after small businesses, but they've been so blinded by an oli- ideology where they believe that now they're doing something virtuous by doing all of this. So this is the really dangerous part of antifa is that it makes people think wickedness is good and so they will stop at nothing to further their agenda, and that means killing when necessary, stabbing people when needed, beating them on the head and the face, including elderly people, elderly women who have stepped in to try to intervene.

    5. CWChris Williamson48:14

       It is that element of the vulnerable, the homeless, the vagrants, the people with mental health issues being recruited essentially into, "Look, we have the answer. We can make you feel like you're contributing. We can make you feel a part of something." As you said right at the beginning, it's much eas- it's such a trope to say it's much easier to tear something down than it is to build something up. But it would appear that antifa are pretty shit at doing anything that isn't tearing something down. But anyone can do it. Thankfully, breaking a glass window requires no qualifications and almost no training.I totally hadn't realized, it's far too cliché to presume that all of Antifa are upper working class or middle class people from nice areas, with good mums and dads, who are just sort of luxury smashing their way through the afternoon. But the way that people who perhaps have the intellectual capacity to manipulate these less fortunate people and turn them into the vanguard of these movements, that is really insidious. That makes me feel quite uneasy.

    6. ANAndy Ngo49:21

       Yes. That's a great analysis. Yes, these people who, the intellectuals, the professors, the academics, those who are in stable backgrounds are using these vulnerable people as henchmen and goons to carry out acts of criminal violence. And on the rare occasion that law enforcement and prosecutors do something, it's another drop in the bucket if one of them happens to be sentenced to prison.

11. 49:49 – 54:50

    Relationship Between Antifa & BLM

    1. ANAndy Ngo49:49

    2. CWChris Williamson49:49

       What's the relationship between Antifa and BLM?

    3. ANAndy Ngo49:54

       They... So, in 2020, there was a, in my view, a fusion of the two movements, um, and I saw that most clearly in Antifa Black Bloc volunteering as, um, security militia type, uh, groups for BLM events. And there was a lot of, there's been a lot of cross-pollination since 2016 between these two different ideologies. Um, BLM by the s- the words and statements and self-identification of their, their co-founders, they identify as Marxists, and the people they venerate and celebrate are rev- rev- rev- revolutionary Marxists, and some of them, um, are fugitives to Cuba, like Assata Shakur, who was involved in the murder of a state trooper decades ago. Uh, these are the type of people that they want to emulate. Whereas Antifa, the anarchist side of them is very important to its- its, for them it's the fusion of anarchy and communism together. So, in many ways, there are certain what you would think would be barriers to them coming together because the BLM people are not trying to necessarily abolish the, the state itself. I think they're working to try to replace all the institutions with their people so that they take power with the state. Um, but as of right now, they share a common ideology in their opposition to, militant opposition to law enforcement, to the rule of law, to property rights, to, um, the r- the Right in America, the conservative Right. So, they have enough common enemies and common goals right now that they are working together. But I think ............................ was a particular telling thing that when they, let's say, had s- had, had some success and they were forced to be together, that's when these differences came out. And, um, but this is where Antifa has taken a lot of intersectional theory as well. So, they were deferential to the Black Marxist militants in .........................., um, just because they happened to be Black. So-

    4. CWChris Williamson52:19

       How do you mean they were deferential? What, what were they doing?

    5. ANAndy Ngo52:22

       They were scared to openly challenge some of these warlord-type figures who happened to be Black because they didn't want to be perceived as racists within their own community.

    6. CWChris Williamson52:31

       I was gonna say, are they scared of challenging them because they're Black or scared of challenging them because they're a warlord?

    7. ANAndy Ngo52:37

       They're, because they're Black.

    8. CWChris Williamson52:39

       Mm-hmm. Because that would, that would undermine the grievance hierarchy that they're supposed to be in favor of.

    9. ANAndy Ngo52:49

       Correct. Yeah. So, you can see their ideologies, uh, is very biased nature, very destabilizing, even within the people who are on the far left. So, um, but as of now, they're, uh, in unison for the most part, and Antifa's chants are no different from BLM chants. Um, the graffiti is no different. Um, and they have a common enemy in taking down and destroying the founding ideals of America.

    10. CWChris Williamson53:20

        When you think about some Black values though, I think, uh, it doesn't strike massively for me with tearing down institutions. You know, you think about some of the things that were championing young Black kids to get into, you know, that you can perform in academics, that you can go into whatever job role that you want, you can proceed and win within the structure as it is. If there's no structure left, then you can't win at anything.

    11. ANAndy Ngo53:52

        Yeah, which is why you see some, uh, Black American community activists who have come out against the Antifa violence in some cities because they're like, "What, what the hell are you doing? You're attacking businesses that are owned by Black people. You're hurting our community. You're economically affecting us during a time when COVID has already been so devastating." But these Antifa people, they s- see, they don't view those, um, Black activists as allies. They view them as people who, because they're still willing to work within the system and they're not willing to abolish it, they're not true allies. So they don't, they're not willing to, um, heed some of their pleads for them, um, to stop being so disruptive. Uh, instead they'll find like these token Black anarchists or people of color anarchists and say, "See, our movement is diverse and it's being led by people of color."

12. 54:50 – 59:09

    What’s Next?

    1. CWChris Williamson54:50

       What happens next? We're in beginning of 2021 at the moment. Biden's inauguration was recent. What's your prediction for the next year?

    2. ANAndy Ngo55:03

       Um, just a continuation of what we've seen before, just routine political violence in the streets and law enforcement not being able to respond and people not being convicted, much less, uh, prosecuted for their-

    3. CWChris Williamson55:17

       What would you do? Where, where would you go from here if you were trying to give some advice to policymakers, law officials, government officials? What would be realistic strategies that you could see to stem this tide or perhaps even reverse it?

    4. ANAndy Ngo55:32

       So, um, the federal government, um, in the past has de- dealt with networks of criminal gangs like the mafia and other groups. And so there are already laws on the, on the books that I think could be applied in helping to break apart some of these networks. Um, s- that's one thing that can be done. I think another thing though, um, and this can't be done without the involvement of liberals, is for the left to systematically detach itself from the far-left extremists. Um, I'm not sure if they're willing to do that right now because the, in my view, Overton window of what was re- allowed on the left has moved pretty far out there. So, um, you know, no ma- no matter what happens this year, we already have this mainstreaming of this argument that property destruction and looting is in the cause of racial justice. It's just, um, attacking and hurting law enforcement or trying to burn down government property for the cause of racial justice is right. So, um, that claim has to be challenged from the left, but I don't see, um, with the direction that they're continuing to move into hard left identitarianism, um, I don't see them coming up to, uh, expel the fringes, um, the fringe voices in, uh, on their side.

    5. CWChris Williamson57:08

       By Trump no longer being empowered though, there is one less very big thing for them to rally around as a unified force.

    6. ANAndy Ngo57:19

       Yes, but that's why in 2020 they weren't really rallying so much in opposition to Trump. They did that in 2016, '17, '18, '19. But in 2020 it was rallying against police, and policing is an institution, (laughs) that departments are gonna be around regardless of which administration is in power. So, that's why you see them rioting still after Biden won. I mean, CNN, there's a story where they were interviewing people, "Why were you rioting on inauguration day?" And the response was, "We- we're still fighting for racial justice because the system itself is racist." So this is, it's like you said earlier, their claims can never be, um, actually challenged in their mind. They can never be falsified. It's always like, you know, "We're fighting for George Floyd. If it's not George Floyd, we're fighting against, um, the lo- the institution of law enforcement because that is a form of America, uh, modern day slavery. And if it's not that, it's captitalism- capitalism 'cause that is then a system of white supremacy." So it's always something, you know, and, um, all it takes is for the next viral video of some, um, deadly encounter with law enforcement and a black person for thousands of leftists to take to the street, and then for Antifa to exploit those gatherings to turn them into riots and mass looting events. Um, it's a, a playbook that they've mastered incredibly well, and law enforcement have been neutered in their ability to respond because anytime police use, uh, use force justifiably, you see what happens to them. They're smeared-

    7. CWChris Williamson59:04

       More news stories, more, more headlines.

    8. ANAndy Ngo59:07

       Correct. Yeah.

13. 59:09 – 1:01:38

    Antifa’s Clever Name

    1. ANAndy Ngo59:09

    2. CWChris Williamson59:09

       I can't get over how clever the Antifa name is. The, it's like, it's the precise opposite of everything that they're actually doing in terms of the way that they act, but it immediately frames any press coverage or anything that anyone says with an immediate positive spin in their direction. It's like, "Why wouldn't I want to be anti-fascist? Of course I wanna be, I wouldn't be for fascists. Fascists sound awful." But what they're actually doing is just hiding behind a very clever name. Like if all it takes is to name myself not the thing that I am, it doesn't bode well for sexual predators, does it? Like imagine-

    3. ANAndy Ngo59:45

       (laughs)

    4. CWChris Williamson59:45

       ... all that Harvey Weinstein needed to do was start a movement called Not A Rapist and then he'd have been fine. Like that's not the way it works in any other, uh, form of the world. But because the arrows of causation are so muddy and because there is some grievance, there are justifiable problems in the world which need to be fixed. But when this is the problem and this is the response, it, uh, it often devolves into violence, which is what we've seen.

    5. ANAndy Ngo1:00:17

       Yeah. So y- I'm glad you focused on the name because a lot of people do get hung up on that. People on the left are like, I, like politicians, they cannot come out vocally in condemning Antifa because then the press coverage-

    6. CWChris Williamson1:00:33

       It's pro fur. (laughs)

    7. ANAndy Ngo1:00:33

       Correct. Exactly. And it's such, I can't believe such a juvenile, childish like trick-

    8. CWChris Williamson1:00:40

       (laughs) It's such a, it's such a-

    9. ANAndy Ngo1:00:41

       ... has been able to fool so many people, right? And have made them cowards. Like I don't care what Antifa calls themselves, I just lo- I look at their ideology, I look at their actions and I look what they call for. It, it's, they're, what they do are acts of terrorism. So, um, to me it's immaterial what they call themselves. It doesn't matter and, uh, unfortunately for my opposition to them, I've been smeared as a fascist propagandist and have been beaten and have had to go into hiding. And so, but, um, I mean, what's important is that my, my book hasn't been canceled, so it's still, it's still out there, uh, or will be released very soon. And, um, I'm hoping people just become better informed on this threat that we're dealing with right now.

    10. CWChris Williamson1:01:34

        Certainly will be. Unmasked: Inside Antifa's Radical Plan to Destroy Democracy will be

14. 1:01:38 – 1:02:05

    Where to Find Andy

    1. CWChris Williamson1:01:38

       linked in the show notes below. Where else should people go to check out your stuff?

    2. ANAndy Ngo1:01:42

       Uh, andy-ngo.com is my website.

    3. CWChris Williamson1:01:46

       Perfect. And thank you. Enjoy the remainder of your time in my lovely country.

    4. ANAndy Ngo1:01:51

       Thank you. Get off it. Get away. Get off it.

Episode duration: 1:02:05