Anxiety & Overthinking Are Habits You Can Break - Dr Julie Smith

Chris Williamson 0:00 Why are emotions so hard to understand for humans?

Dr. Julie Smith 0:05 Well, we're s- we're gonna start with the big questions then, Chris. (laughs)

Chris Williamson 0:09 In the deep end.

Dr. Julie Smith 0:10 Uh, yeah. Well, I guess, uh, I've b- made a bit of a career out of, um, working with people on their emotions and, um, y- as a, as a psychologist, you know, I was in the NHS for 10 years and then, um, worked in a very kind of small private practice, and I would say, you know, all of that work, however diverse it was in terms of what people were dealing with, mostly the common problem was there's this feeling or set of feelings that I have, and I don't want to have them, and there's these other feelings that I would like to have more of the time, but I'm not sure how to access them. And, and nobody has this sort of manual for how to manage emotions and how to understand them and, um, we don't even really have a great vocabulary for them. You know, we're quite limited in... Y- you think about the sort of, the diversity of, uh, the different sort of minute, uh, feelings that you can have throughout the day that apply to different situations. They're all slightly different. You know, if you say, "I feel, um, joy," one minute, uh, uh, joy in a certain scenario might feel quite different to joy in a different scenario. You know, the qualitative differences are there.

Chris Williamson 1:19 Mm.

Dr. Julie Smith 1:19 And you can feel that, but we don't necessarily have the words to express it, and we certainly don't have, uh, the sort of models to understand it. Um, and, you know, it's only in recent years that people have even started to talk about them, so, um, we're in the early stages. But it's, uh, you know, exciting. It's, uh-

Chris Williamson 1:37 Are we doomed to fail in some regard there as humans, that we have this very rich inner experience which is very difficult to communicate, to measure, to understand, to, uh, export to somebody else? "Hey, this is what I'm feeling."

Dr. Julie Smith 1:55 Mm.

Chris Williamson 1:55 And then you have just this limited language which is constrained not only by the words you know but even by the lang- you know, German has a ton of words that we don't have in other languages that almost unlocks your ability to understand emotions in that way. Are we, uh, uh, fated to kind of always be scrabbling to try and understand emotions but never fully doing it?

Dr. Julie Smith 2:12 Uh, no, and I don't think, I don't think it's necessarily, um, sort of, uh, uh, our failure or our limitation that, um, emotions can't be measured and quantified. I think it's, it's a limitation of the method, isn't it? (laughs) That, that, why do we want to? Um, y- uh, we don't have to do that in order to want... You know, there was that real push actually, uh, you know, in, in my career where we were asked to sort of, you know, measure things on scales and numbers and, and actually when you looked at how that would be applied in the room with someone when you're working with someone, uh, it was m- sort of really, really limited in how helpful it could be. Um, you know, if someone came back with some kind of, uh, mood diary in which they'd kind of added a scale of... Uh, and you get this a lot on apps, don't you, with like, you know, "Rate how you feel today out of 10." And it really doesn't tell you much at all because you don't feel it on a scale. You don't feel a number. You've, have a, a set of feelings and a, um, that are kind of, uh, different and sometimes deep and sometimes complex and sometimes confusing.

Chris Williamson 3:16 Mm.

Dr. Julie Smith 3:16 And it's our sort of, um... Often it's when people are trying to kind of sell something around mental health that they try to make it really simple.

Chris Williamson 3:23 Mm.

Dr. Julie Smith 3:23 Um, but it's okay that it's not, I think.

Chris Williamson 3:26 What's your advice

Chris Williamson 3:27 for people who are overthinking everything?

Dr. Julie Smith 3:31 Well, I think, uh, this is actually a really popular subject online. People... I think it's something lots of people are dealing with and, and that's because I think the way that s- life is set up now, right? We're all expected to do... All, all the, all the technology that (laughs) we have, in theory, life should be really e-... Or it was all sold to us as if that will make life easier and you'll have more time on your hands, and actually all that happened was we increased our expectation about how much we get done and how much we can handle. And so, uh, wha- what we're dealing with in terms of mental load is so much more than, uh, what you know would've... And actually, you know, the way that life is set up now, away from traditional roles where, you know, uh, uh, you know, a man might go out to work and a woman would take care of the family, um, those things were separated, but now both people are trying to do both. Actually you're, you're both taking on two full-time jobs and so the mental load is there and, uh, and so it makes sense that people are living at a higher level of stress-

Chris Williamson 4:36 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Julie Smith 4:36 ... all the time. And when you're, when you're, uh, your stress level, your arousal level is higher, you're more vulnerable to overthinking.

Chris Williamson 4:43 Mm.

Dr. Julie Smith 4:43 So a lot of people think, "I'm overthinking something because there's something wrong with me," or, "I'm just a worrier." And I always say to people, "Sh- don't label yourself as just a worrier," because that gives you that sense that you can't overturn it or you can't do anything about it-

Chris Williamson 4:54 Mm.

Dr. Julie Smith 4:55 ... which is wrong. Um, i- you know, it, it's a habit as much as anything else, but it's also something that is more likely to happen when you're already stressed. So, you know, if someone came into the room with me and said, "You know, I'm just overthinking everything. What shall I do?" Actually what we would look at is life as a whole, like the full context of... I- it's not only what are you overthinking and how can you stop thinking about it in that way. It's, you know, what is going on with the, um, your stress levels in general that's causing you to be at that state where you're looking for the worst case scenarios? So, 'cause that's what you're set up to do, right? It's not a fault in your brain. Your brain's doing a really good job. You're probably giving your brain lots of sim- sim- sort of lots of signs rather-

Chris Williamson 5:38 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Julie Smith 5:40 ... that, um, things aren't okay. You know, your, maybe your blood pressure's high. Maybe you're on the go all day. And so your brain is getting those signals from in your body and from your surroundings that, uh, w- we're not all, uh, you know, not all is well here, that there's a lot going on-

Chris Williamson 5:55 Mm.

Dr. Julie Smith 5:55 ... we've got a lot to deal with. Be alert because something could be unpredictable here. We need, you know... So that's your kind of state of readiness. Um, so I think when you're dealing with overthinking...... it's important not to just deal with oth- the overthinking-

Chris Williamson 6:09 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Julie Smith 6:09 ... but to look at everything as a whole.

Chris Williamson 6:11 Mm. Yeah, I wonder whether there's more opportunities for people to consider and ruminate about what's going on in their life at the moment because most of the base needs for most people that are listening to this podcast are sorted. They know where they're gonna sleep tonight, they know where their food is gonna come from, et cetera, et cetera. Uh, and oddly enough, uh, an existential crisis or, you know, worrying about emotions, thinking about thinking is actually kind of a luxurious position to be in, in order to be able to get to that stage. I'm aware that for everybody that deals with it, including myself, it doesn't feel luxurious at the time, but it's probably an indication that the base of Maslow's hierarchy of needs has probably been sorted, and we're then moving on to what's next. But yeah, the threat detection thing, the fact that there is, uh, an infinite number of potential, uh, stresses out there and are biased toward looking at those ones as opposed to something a little bit more calming.

Dr. Julie Smith 7:06 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 7:07 The- the calm stuff, that's not salient. I don't need to worry about that. But I'll worry about the thing that I think I need to worry about.

Dr. Julie Smith 7:14 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 7:14 So what about in the moment? Somebody's in that sort of... They're trapped in that cycle, that overthinking loop. I imagine this is something that your clients talk to you a lot about. What are interventions or what are the ways when you find yourself doing that, that you take yourself out of it as best you can?

Dr. Julie Smith 7:30 Yeah. So, so if you're worrying, I think, uh, there's a lot of work that you do around building awareness of what's happening at the time. So, um, you... Y- we formulate. So we pretty much draw out the cycle, uh, on- on pen and paper. Just, um, you know, we look at the scenario that comes before, so what y- what tends to happen in the lead-up to the overthinking and what's the, you know, what are the things that are contributing to that. And then, what are the types of thoughts that you're having? And so you b- build this awareness that, um, they are usually horror story thoughts. You know, it's the worst case scenario that you can possibly come up with, and you play it out in your mind over and over again. And, and that ramps up your anxiety. And then when you feel those symptoms of anxiety, whatever they are for you, you then look, you know, become more vigilant-

Chris Williamson 8:21 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Julie Smith 8:21 ... and you become... Y- you sort of look for more things that could go wrong. And so y- when you do that, when you look at the cycle, even though the- the minute details will change depending on what's going on for you and what the situation is, the cycle will pretty much always be the same.

Chris Williamson 8:36 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Julie Smith 8:37 And so you get this sort of, uh, insight into the- the cycle that you're going round in. And when you do that... I mean, in therapy you do it in hindsight, right? So you go a- and you look at the week that's just gone by and you say, "This happened, and I was really worrying about that, and that's how I dealt with the worry." And often you're looking at, you know, what you did in response to that feeling that then actually fed back into the cycle. And when you see it on paper and you see that when you, you know, you did something to get rid of that feeling, um, but then actually it brought you back round, you can see that you're doing things that actually contribute to making it worse. And, and there has to be a kind of careful process of self-discovery. Um, and when... But when you do it, you- you begin to get this awareness in the moment as it's happening. So you start with it in hindsight, you know, looking back-

Chris Williamson 9:27 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Dr. Julie Smith 9:27 ... and then the more familiar you become with it, the more you start to, uh, when you're in it, go, "Oh, I know where I am with that cycle."

Chris Williamson 9:33 "I think that that's that thing again that we thought about last time, and now it's happening." Yeah, that's interesting. Using a sort of retrospective, uh, assessment as a predictive tool.

Dr. Julie Smith 9:44 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 9:44 You go, "Hey, this thing happened before. Maybe it'll happen again. That pattern's beginning to come up."

Dr. Julie Smith 9:49 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 9:49 Uh, so for me, when I'm underslept. If I'm underslept, my-

Dr. Julie Smith 9:53 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 9:53 ... uh, ability to sort of regulate just f- falls out of the window.

Dr. Julie Smith 9:56 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 9:56 Uh, so... And okay, right, I'm- I'm tired. Therefore, I need to sort of adjust the sight on my scope to be like, "Am I actually that bothered about this or did I just get four hours sleep last night?"

Dr. Julie Smith 10:05 Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Chris Williamson 10:07 Uh, what about fear

Chris Williamson 10:09 as well? Because I think that this is kind of a, a two-pronged, uh, challenge that people have. Um, a lot of fear, a lot of concern about making decisions, about whether or not I'm doing the right thing, uh, very visceral emotion.

Dr. Julie Smith 10:23 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 10:24 How can people better deal with fear?

Dr. Julie Smith 10:26 Yes. Do you know, I, um, I actually rewrote the chapter on fear in this book when... So over the summer, I went through, um, uh, some health problems. I was, uh, diagnosed with cancer, and, uh, at that point I was about six weeks away from finishing the book. Uh, I... Yeah. No, uh, yeah, I was six weeks away f- when I, um, started going for tests and then I was about two weeks away, um, from handing the book in when I got my diagnosis. So I was so determined to finish the book, and at, at that point I was just reading it through, right? I was just... And, and I, I read through... Just happened to read through the chapter on fear-

Chris Williamson 11:02 Yeah.

Dr. Julie Smith 11:02 ... um, the day after. And, uh, I thought, "This isn't what I need to hear right now. This isn't right."

Chris Williamson 11:08 What was wrong with it?

Dr. Julie Smith 11:09 Hit delete. So, y- it was probably more gentle than I wanted, um, than I personally needed. And, and I think generally, um, they- that can happen. You know, lots of people do need that approach. But at the time, I'd got selfish with it and I thought, "I need something a bit different to this."

Chris Williamson 11:26 Yeah.

Dr. Julie Smith 11:26 So I hit delete and I rewrote it for myself. So it's much more about, you know, in that moment, okay, h- fear is here and it's necessary and it's information. It's telling me that not all is well and I need to be alert and I need to think about how to work through this. And so I'm gonna use that fear, but I'm not going to be the victim in this. I'm not gonna be the pre-... You know, there's often... When you talk, people talk about cancer, there's often this idea that that thing is attacking you and you're victim to it.

Chris Williamson 11:59 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Julie Smith 11:59 And I really just did not want to be in that place at all.

Chris Williamson 12:03 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Julie Smith 12:04 And so I wanted to kind of turn the tables. And so, um, in the chapter I talk about this idea of, you-... you know, choosing to be the prey instead of the, uh, ch- choosing to be the predator instead of the prey. So, um, sort of always being on the front foot, and f-forward motion and looking at, "What's my plan and what am I gonna do next?" And taking action so that I didn't feel... You know, 'cause you can feel, you still feel fear when you're on the front foot, but you're using it, and that feels so fundamentally different-

Chris Williamson 12:35 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Julie Smith 12:35 ... to sitting in fear and just allowing it to implode.

Chris Williamson 12:40 I had this realization toward the end of my 20s when I was trying to unpack, uh, a- you know, three decades of, of not understanding myself. And, uh, I remember I wrote down, "Action is the antidote to an- anxiety." And the reason for that was, I, I became way less fearful about the future when I was moving myself toward it.

Dr. Julie Smith 13:01 Mm.

Chris Williamson 13:01 Uh, when I didn't feel passive, when I didn't feel like I was bling- being blown around by the wind.

Dr. Julie Smith 13:05 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 13:06 And, um, yeah, there's this interesting, this interesting sort of, uh, coming back to center moment, I think, with a health scare or with fear in general. If it's really visceral, you know, if it's emotional fear, if it's serious. Uh, and it really does kind of remind you about this essence of yourself. At least I've found that. That when I'm in, when I've got, uh, a big period of ruminative stress, I actually feel oddly more myself than, uh, I do at, at other times. I think it sort of strips away a lot of the bravado and momentum and inertia that you've got going on.

Dr. Julie Smith 13:41 Mm.

Chris Williamson 13:42 Uh, compensating mechanisms and the ways that you can kind of hide things when everything's going well. And then you kind of come back to center and you kind of remember what that is. But yeah, action being an antidote to anxiety, I think, um... And it's ruthless because the action, uh, is the exact thing that anxiety stops you from wanting to do. The, the very last thing. "I'm gonna stay in bed, I don't want to get up, I don't want to be leaning in, I don't want to be sort of, uh, um, taking charge of the situation."

Dr. Julie Smith 14:08 Mm. And a lot of it is being able to recognize urges and override them. So recognize that urge to go for safety and comfort, and, and act opposite to it. And, um, in the same way that you do in kind of more lighthearted situations. So I don't know, exercise, you know, you get to a point where your body's sort of hurting a bit and you would rather stop, but you practice sort of overriding that urge. And that's a, uh, big sort of, um, skillset that is actually taught in certain therapies, um, acting opposite to urges. And you can do it in really small ways. So, um, you know, you might, you know, put a Polo in your mouth and resist the urge to crunch it. And, you know-

Chris Williamson 14:48 Mm.

Dr. Julie Smith 14:48 ... so you can do it in really lighthearted kind of simple ways, but then what you're doing is you're kind of practicing that mental muscle, really, to be able to recognize that in moments when you need it most, and, and to be able to do it. So that it's not the first time you're doing it-

Chris Williamson 15:01 Mm.

Dr. Julie Smith 15:01 ... doesn't feel... You know, you, you know the process.

Chris Williamson 15:04 It's a vicious cycle. You know, there's periods where momentum seems to be working with you and then periods where it seems to be working against you. And, uh, I think what we all, everybody wants is this sort of permanent upward spiral toward ever-increasing capacity and ever-increasing hope in ourselves. But, you know, there is a, uh, there is a vicious sort of other side to that momentum too. And, uh, stepping in to kind of have a circuit breaker on that is, um, yeah, something I think a lot more people need.

Dr. Julie Smith 15:31 Yeah, and I think, you know, people want to feel, uh, courageous and strong. And, and I think what we forget is that fear is a core component of that. You know, it's a core ingredient of, uh, of coura- You can't really call yourself courageous if you didn't do something that filled you with fear. Um, so i- in order to kind of... A- and you do, when you, when you face things that are, that scare the living daylights out of you, and, and you do that with sort of forward action and, um, you know, take a sort of commanding composure in fa- in the face of those really scary things-

Chris Williamson 16:08 Mm.

Dr. Julie Smith 16:08 ... um, you, you start to feel that and you, and you start to discover that what you thought were your limits, uh, was really kind of a smokescreen.

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Chris Williamson 17:22 It's different, you know... One of the taglines of CrossFit for a while was, "Get comfortable being uncomfortable." And, um, I- I... It was sexy or whatever.

Dr. Julie Smith 17:31 Mm.

Chris Williamson 17:31 But I always felt a little bit, um... I don't know. I- I- I... It always felt a little hollow to me because the discomfort that people were getting comfortable with when doing a workout was something they'd elected to do.

Dr. Julie Smith 17:43 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 17:44 Like, you chose to go to the gym.

Dr. Julie Smith 17:45 Mm.

Chris Williamson 17:45 You, you already do this because you like to do it. Yeah, maybe you've pushed yourself beyond a limit that would be reasonable to even almost everybody, but still, it's sort of within your control.

Dr. Julie Smith 17:54 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 17:55 Cancer diagnosis is a degree of discomfort that you didn't choose.

Dr. Julie Smith 17:59 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 17:59 So, you know, reflecting, I guess, on the last year for yourself, w- what's your advice to somebody who is going through a tough time with their health, uncertainty, fear of the future, uh, you know, this is the personal and the professional colliding for you, I suppose?

Dr. Julie Smith 18:17 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 18:17 Um-... what did you, wh- w- what would you say to somebody?

Dr. Julie Smith 18:22 I think when, when uncertainty is ... I mean, that's the, the big thing about something like that, i- and- and you don't a- when it happens as well, you, it's not like this sort of big dramatic moment where you suddenly, you know what the diagnosis is, you know what the plan is, you know what the risk is. It doesn't really happen like that. It's all in stages. So there is this sort of big period of being really uncertain about everything and not knowing what to do with that. Um, and then not knowing who you can really share that with because you don't want to scare the living daylights out of everybody else that you love. Um, and so when there is such uncertainty in that way, the way that I d- dealt with it and, and would do in, again in the future, is just narrow everything down. Narrow your focus down. What's the next move? What's the next step? And, uh, let's take that, get that, get that bit done. Take action and-

Chris Williamson 19:14 What would be an example of that?

Dr. Julie Smith 19:15 Um, so actually, it was a really kind of strange experience where the day I got diagnosed, the day after, the consultant I was under was about to go on holiday for two weeks. And then we had a holiday booked for two weeks after that. And, um, and w- once he went, um, eh, some more tests came back and the, the, the treatments or the recommendations were changed, but the team wouldn't tell me what they were because that was his role to do that.

Chris Williamson 19:44 Mm.

Dr. Julie Smith 19:45 Um, so I was sort of thinking, "Okay, they're not gonna tell me so it must be something bad. Do I cancel my holiday? What do I do?" And there's all these kind of, um, you know, uncertainties around what to do and, and I could feel myself, I was sat there trying to edit the book and, and, and I, it was just consuming me. And, and, and rightly so, right? My brain is saying, "Hang on a minute. Let's sort this out." A- and I could feel that sort of sense of, of just being in turmoil, not being able to affect anything or control anything and just waiting. I thought, "I'm not doing this. There's no way." So, um, you know, um, um, my husband came home from work and we just, we started doing lots of research on, um, uh, surgeons and, uh, consultants and, you know, we're lucky enough that we were in a position to go and pay to go and see someone, but w- you know, I started asking medics I know for recommendations. Um, found someone that was nearby, um, made those calls, got those appointments and in the process of just doing that, you know, nothing's changed in theory.

Chris Williamson 20:46 Mm.

Dr. Julie Smith 20:46 But I am moving forward and taking action.

Chris Williamson 20:48 Mm.

Dr. Julie Smith 20:49 And it felt just fundamentally different to y- you know, I wasn't sitting there shaking and weeping. I was, "Okay, what's the next call we can make? Who, you know, how much does that cost? What can we do? Who can we see?" And, um, and we did and, and it actually helped the process. Um, and I, you know, found someone to, um, you know, do the surgery for me and all that kind of thing and, and it was really positive. Um, but y- yeah, I think sitting there like, e- and- and that's where I got that feeling of the rabbit in headlights. I'm not gonna sit here like a rabbit in headlights. I'm gonna move forward.

Chris Williamson 21:22 Mm.

Dr. Julie Smith 21:23 And I'm gonna e- do something and you can't, in every situation, not in every situation you can do that, but, um, I, you know, I'm lucky enough that, um, uh, touch wood, I'm lucky enough that I was in that position where I could, you know, affect the outcome.

Chris Williamson 21:37 Trying to contribute to your own future. Again, it's that action being the antidote to anxiety thing.

Dr. Julie Smith 21:41 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 21:41 I think.

Dr. Julie Smith 21:41 Every time.

Chris Williamson 21:42 Um, yeah. You don't wanna feel like life is buffeting you around and you're at the mercy of it.

Dr. Julie Smith 21:48 Mm. Yeah.

Chris Williamson 21:49 Uh, you're already feeling a little helpless.

Dr. Julie Smith 21:51 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 21:51 You're already in a little bit of hell. You know well that it's going to get worse.

Dr. Julie Smith 21:55 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 21:56 So yeah, trying to step in.

Dr. Julie Smith 21:57 And I think it's okay for that action not to be the solving of the thing as well. You know, people often say, "Oh, and you know," um, ah-ah, "Don't sort of avoid things by getting busy with something else."

Chris Williamson 22:08 Mm.

Dr. Julie Smith 22:09 But sometimes that's necessary, um, for, you know, improving the moment and not making it worse.

Chris Williamson 22:14 Well, i- there's better and worse coping mechanisms and if one of the coping mechanisms is I made myself feel better for half an hour today.

Dr. Julie Smith 22:22 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 22:22 I did a thing that gave me some respite, you know, it's a very low resolution way to look at what you should or shouldn't do. Like a random judgment-

Dr. Julie Smith 22:30 Mm.

Chris Williamson 22:30 ... that you're making on it, which is, well do you think that being sympathetically activated for 18 hours today is a good way to spend? What if you could get that down to 17 and a half? Okay, is that worthwhile? Are you saying that that's a coping mechanism or is that maybe you actually giving your body a little tiny bit of respite? So-

Dr. Julie Smith 22:47 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 22:47 ...

Chris Williamson 22:48 uh, looking forward, what about looking back? How can people better understand their childhoods?

Dr. Julie Smith 22:55 Um, h- in terms of understanding your childhood, I think it really helps to do, I- a lot of people doing that online with kind of, y- bits of information that come up on, you know, videos and stuff like that. Um, but I think if you want to do it in depth, in a really constructive way that's truly gonna help you and not send you into kind of resentment and bitterness about everything your parents got wrong-

Chris Williamson 23:20 Mm.

Dr. Julie Smith 23:21 ... then, um, it does help to do that with somebody else, um, where you can look at it in a constructive way that's actually gonna help 'cause, you know, there's utility in going back and, and, and processing that and, and creating that sort of, um, uh, n- sort of narrative really. A timeline of, "Okay, this happened and that influenced me in this way and this happened then." And then, you know, and, and that's, that's really useful but sometimes if it's not constructive, it just becomes a rant of everything that was done wrong for me and, and all the negative impact that's had on my life.

Chris Williamson 24:00 Mm.

Dr. Julie Smith 24:00 And that's quite dangerous in some ways because you can then get into that, that cycle of that sort of turmoil really. Of resentment and, and feeling like a victim of it. Um, whereas when you do that constructively, for example, when you do that in therapy, you'll be a fairly balanced, uh, view and it will kind of look at-... the, the things that you wouldn't change and the things that you might do-

Chris Williamson 24:22 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Julie Smith 24:22 ... and, um, how they've impacted you now and how, i- if, if something that happened in your childhood got you stuck into a certain cycle of, I don't know, something that you do in your relationships today that you'd rather not, then y- you're using that, right? You're, you're gonna use that to then break the cycle because you're going to use that to say, "Okay, I know what I'm doing now."

Chris Williamson 24:42 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Julie Smith 24:43 "It's because of something that happened earlier on and, and I'm gonna choose to do something different. I'm gonna break that cycle." Um, so it can be really, really productive, um, but it has to be carefully done, I think.

Chris Williamson 24:56 What about if... I mean, everybody's parents will have made mistakes, some larger than others. How can people learn to get back to neutral with something that they can't go back and change? There is no time machine to go and fix whatever it is. They feel like they've inherited this version of themselves that their parents created, the, the pathologies, the thought patterns, the biases, the ways of seeing the world and themselves and the inner voice and all of that stuff.

Dr. Julie Smith 25:29 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 25:29 If our parents got it wrong and in the ways that our parents got it wrong, how can we become more at peace with that?

Dr. Julie Smith 25:35 I think in some ways a part of that work is, is understanding where your parents have come from and that they more than likely had their own complex childhoods in which they had their own, um, you know, damage that was done and, and cycles that they were stuck in. Um, and, and probably, you know, they were still growing up in an era where there wasn't that education around this kind of stuff-

Chris Williamson 25:59 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Julie Smith 25:59 ... and there wasn't that insight, and so they would have been living out their own, uh, coping strategies with whatever they were dealing with. So, I think that's part of it, is understanding that doesn't make it okay if your parents were, you know, horribly abusive, but it's, it's one way of understanding these cycles that people get stuck in and how, um, damage can be caused often without intention. Um, but also there's a degree of, um, you know, in that parent-child relationship, often we carry the parent-child relationship into adulthood-

Chris Williamson 26:33 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Julie Smith 26:33 ... and, and we still behave like the child in that relationship.

Chris Williamson 26:37 That's just what I was about to say.

Dr. Julie Smith 26:38 Uh, in a sense that y- you, we, we give all the responsibility to our parents for making it a good relationship-

Chris Williamson 26:45 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Julie Smith 26:45 ... and actually what you have now is an adult-to-adult relationship in which you get to decide. You can't change your parents and, and actually often people assume that, "If I could just convince my parents that... And, and, and help them to see the damage that they did and get that apology, that everything would be better."

Chris Williamson 27:03 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Julie Smith 27:03 And, you know, possibly, but, but a lot of parents won't necessarily have any more insight than they had when you were a child. And so I think we can't sort of rest our idea of healing on that, o- on getting those apologies or getting their insight-

Chris Williamson 27:19 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Julie Smith 27:20 ... um, because often they don't have it, and, and often it's about developing a relationship with our parents that, um, th- they are capable of as well, um, so that we're not expecting more of them than they're actually able to give.

Chris Williamson 27:32 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Julie Smith 27:33 Um...

Chris Williamson 27:33 It's e- it's interesting that we see the lineage between "Our parents did this and therefore I am like that. How unfair. How could this be the case?"

Dr. Julie Smith 27:41 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 27:41 But you just go, just go back one generation, just move back by 25 years, and you go, "Well, your grandparents were like that, which made your parent... How can you give yourself this, uh, excuse-"

Dr. Julie Smith 27:54 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 27:54 "... or this reason and not continue to ro-" And then the great-grandparents, the grandpa- and, you know, you go all the way back.

Dr. Julie Smith 28:00 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 28:00 So yeah, it's, um... It is odd, and I think that you're right as well, every generation thinks that it's unique, and I get the sense that emotionally maybe this has been the biggest change across one generation from sort of, like, boomer period to whatever, X millennial, Gen Z. Just that the opportunity for people to ruminate the challenges that people have from an emotional stressor perspective, uh, the information that you have to become aware of how much better things could be as well, which creates an ideal, and then you sort of compare yourself to, "Oh, well, if only I could get rid of my anxious attachment, if only I could get rid of my fear of the fu- if only I could get rid of my overthinking or my whatever it is-"

Dr. Julie Smith 28:43 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 28:43 "... um, which has now opened everybody up to think back more. But our parents don't necessarily have that. They're just sort of, uh, dealing with the physics of their system the way that it was given to them without necessarily realizing quite so much or quite so viscerally that, "Well, things could have been a different way." It's like, "Well, things just are the way they are." And you go, "Okay, so what do you want? Do you want to be largely unaware that things could have been different and to understand the way the attachment styles and child rearing and behavioral genetics and et cetera, et cetera work to influence the disposition you have as an adult? Or do you want to have it this way? Like, is ignorance bliss?" Because for me personally, I would much sooner be able to contribute a little bit to have the pain of the realization that there's something which is in my hands and that there are ways that this can be changed, but be educated on this and actually be able to make some sort of an impact as opposed to just being at the mercy of it.

Dr. Julie Smith 29:33 Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And I think what we have to be really careful of, and you kind of see a lot of online, is, is this sort of resentment and bitterness, this sort of, um, one-sided, "This negative thing was done."

Chris Williamson 29:48 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Julie Smith 29:49 Um, you know, "Parents are the bad guys. I'm the victim of the bad guys," and, and, uh, now it's awful, and, you know, uh, to a degree, y- you know, in, in the most severe scenarios where things are just awful, um, you know, that's, th- y- almost separate from, from what we're talking about here, where, you know, you can have a, a fairly sort of normal childhood, um, and there were things that negatively affected you, but there would also have been a lot that positively affected you. And, and so I think one way of sort of ... creating a sort of antidote to just feeling bitterness and resentment towards your parents is to, uh, uh, sort of nurture some gratitude around, okay, these were the things about your childhood that weren't ideal. What were, what would be the things that you would repeat, you know, when you become a parent yourself? What were the things that you value about your childhood that you think helped you become the person that you are, or that helped you, you know, feel secure or... You know, so your, your parents might have been, um, emotionally neglectful and not sort of spent lots of time with you, but actually maybe, uh, they held down a really difficult job and endured that so that you could have food on the table every night. And maybe, you know, maybe your mom was at home every day when you got home from school with a warm dinner and, you know, had that kind of dutiful sense of love, loving you. And, uh, so, so there will be new ways of sort of turning something and looking at it in a slightly different way that helps you to, uh, shift, shift the feeling and, and not just sit in that resentment of, um, you, you know, uh, "I've, I've survived, um, despite my parents rather than because of them."

Chris Williamson 31:38 Are you familiar with the Thomas Sowell quote, "There are no solutions, only trade-offs"?

Dr. Julie Smith 31:42 I am now. (laughs)

Chris Williamson 31:43 Okay. So I, I, this year it feels like that's been the quote of the year for me.

Dr. Julie Smith 31:48 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 31:49 Um, and a lot of the time, the, the, what it means is trying to optimize absolutely everything and railing against things that are shortcomings is a, uh, surefire route to misery, because you're not going to be able to get everything to be perfect.

Dr. Julie Smith 32:03 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 32:03 And in many situations, something is positive and something is negative, and the negative thing has probably come along for the ride as the dark side of the positive thing.

Dr. Julie Smith 32:12 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 32:13 Uh, and I think that it's the same with the parents. It's so right. You know, um, uh, Dad wasn't there for me, uh, sufficiently emotionally. I imagine that's a big sort of, uh, millennial complaint about boomer parents. You know, Dad was sort of this classic still blue-collar guy. And you go, yeah, w- w- well, he was at work like 10 hours a day, five days a week for 18 years to raise you and before that and for brothers and sisters and all the rest of the stuff. And you go, okay, so there are no solutions. There's only trade-offs. You had this level of secur- or maybe there's somebody else who... Dad was there for me a lot of the time, but we really struggled with money. And you go, okay, again, you, you, I... Uh, it came to me because I started, I made a big pivot with my diet and that improved, uh, a ton of, uh, energy problems that I was having, but I was f- (laughs) finding myself waking up at f- 3:30 or 4:00 in the morning every single day for a week. Uh, and the first day I thought, oh, this is just... It'll be like, it's a transition thing. Then the second day I thought, oh no, this has become a habit. And then by the third day I was railing against it. So I woke up and I was like, "God, it's w- like, why is this the case? How come I'm waking up at this time? This is so annoying. I'm gonna be tired tomorrow," et cetera, et cetera. And that, uh, Thomas Sowell floated into my head and he, the quote, "There are no solutions, only trade-offs," I thought, right, okay, would you be happy to get up at 3:30 in the morning if it meant that your mood and your cognition throughout the day was better than it had been over the last couple of months? It's like, yes. Like, what are you complaining about then? What you're complaining about is, why can't I have the entire world exactly the way that I want?

Dr. Julie Smith 33:43 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 33:44 It's like, no, no, no, no, you don't, you... Would that be beautiful? Yes. Is it in anyone's world realistic? Absolutely not. And the same thing I think when we look at our parents is a nice perspective.

Dr. Julie Smith 33:56 Yeah, absolutely. And it, it's, uh, there's always something to be grateful for and something to feel a bit annoyed about or miserable about. And, and, um, I think part... It's a really important life skill to, to just have that clarity that you can choose. You don't have to be... You know, it, we're all human. We all find ourselves in those moment- And, you know, when I'm talking about that, uh, you know, uh, health scare stuff that I went through in the summer, um, and I, uh, talk about sort of, you know, being the predator and not the prey and all of that, that doesn't mean every moment I was feeling that. That- that was a response to those dark moments where you feel like, oh my, you know, what, what's gonna happen to me? And, and-

Chris Williamson 34:35 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Julie Smith 34:36 ... and, you know, those dark moments. So i- i- it's only human to find yourself in those, but wh- just by having that awareness and knowing that it's a choice gives you that opportunity to step back from it, get that s- you know, put it at arm's length-

Chris Williamson 34:50 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Julie Smith 34:51 ... see it for what it is, and then you get to choose. But, you know, uh, having those moments of difficulty or the moments when you're not doing that, like you say, the, the dark moments in the morning when you're thinking, "Oh, why am I doing this?" It's okay to have those moments. Doesn't mean you're failing. But then you had that process of, hang on a minute, I remember that quote, now I get to choose. And, and you just learn from all of those experiences.

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Chris Williamson 36:14 I imagine that a lot of parents, I'm not one yet, but I imagine a lot of parents have the reversed problem, which is that they're terrified of getting it wrong for their kids as they're raising them or shortly after they've raised them. What is your advice there?

Dr. Julie Smith 36:28 ... it is part and parcel of, of the whole experience. And, and you feel it for- for a woman, as a woman, you feel that, that from the moment you know you're pregnant and suddenly everything you do is about somebody else. And, um, and so y- you feel guilt no matter what you do really. Um, and, and w- and with feelings of guilt, it's, it's important to listen to it as well- I mean, there's kind of, you know, there's stuff online about sort of parent guilt and, and how, you know, you shouldn't feel it or you should ignore it, um, and do what's good for you, and that's fine. You know, there are moments, you know, that might be in, in the context of taking a break because it's difficult to do that and take time for yourself, and that's when you, you know, acknowledge that guilt and you take it with you because you know this is the right thing to do. Um, and there are other times when it's important to, to listen to that guilt more deeply and go, "Well, am I feeling that because I'm not living in line with my values as a parent?" And, um, so I don't know, um, uh, if I, you know, feel guilty about coming here, so, so coming to London for a couple of days, doing some interviews, there's a sense of, "I don't wanna leave you guys." And, and if one of my children got upset, um, which they didn't but if they did, but y- um, I would feel that sort of, "Oh, why am I leaving?"

Chris Williamson 37:46 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Julie Smith 37:46 And that's sort of the point where I have to get that clarity of the situation where I'm doing this because, um, it benefits the family, like the payoffs thing, right? Your dad's at work all day-

Chris Williamson 37:55 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Julie Smith 37:55 ... that kind of thing. Um, they're difficult decisions, and by having your values really clear in your mind about why you're doing something, um, it's easier then to kind of not make the guilt go away, you just, you're willing to take it with you. So, you get it in your backpack and you, you know, you take it with you because you know you're doing the right thing.

Chris Williamson 38:17 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Julie Smith 38:17 And because sometimes that feeling is, um, is not based on something that's warranted, you know? Sometimes-

Chris Williamson 38:24 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Dr. Julie Smith 38:25 ... it's, you know, if you're, I don't know, uh, a people pleaser or something because of how things were set up in your childhood, you'll probably feel guilty all the time, uh, when you feel like you might have, you know, upset someone, um, and, and that's, that's not necessarily warranted. That's a pattern. Um, so sometimes, uh, y- you know, if, if we, if we engage in sort of emotional reasoning, right, which is that bias of, "I feel it, therefore it's true," uh, that can get us into all sorts of trouble. So if, because I feel guilt, that means I'm a terrible parent, then I'm gonna have a terrible time.

Chris Williamson 39:00 That's interesting.

Dr. Julie Smith 39:01 Yeah. So if you, if you feel guilt and you don't recognize it as a, as a normal part of being a parent, um, then you're likely to just think that you're failing all the time.

Chris Williamson 39:12 So it's not just the sensation, it's the story that you tell yourself, and you happen to be defaulting to a very particular story, which is because... because I'm a bad parent.

Dr. Julie Smith 39:21 Mm.

Chris Williamson 39:21 I mean, look, it- the only thing I can contribute is sort of a bit of an evolutionary lens, but I imagine that mothers especially, but also fathers, have a pretty easy to activate guilt response to kids. Why? Well, because the parents that didn't feel guilty when they left their kids, their kids died. And we've selected for the most neurotic, overbearing, caring parents that we can think of, and that's- th- that, those are your ancestors.

Dr. Julie Smith 39:48 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 39:48 Okay, so this is going to arise. You leave. Like, you know, I'm sure that even just Dad going to work, Mum going to work on a morning, normal day at work, kid is sad. You go, "Okay, I understand that in order to put food on table to keep tiny child alive, I have to go to work."

Dr. Julie Smith 40:05 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 40:05 Do I feel guilty about that? Well, kind of, no. But then if it's something that seems more elective, then it feels like, yeah, that is, because it's, I don't know, less justified in some way or m- m- you know, more opulent, more, more, more chosen. So you go, "Okay, well, I, I just need to work out, is this in line with something," like you said, "Principles, e- s- the life setup? Uh, am I doing something that makes the world a better place that my kids can grow up in? Is this something that they're going to be proud of? Is this something that affords us a different type of lifestyle? Is this something that they would want me to do?" If they were, in 20 years time, would they want to look back and say, "Do you know what it is? I'm really glad that you actually went and did that"?

Dr. Julie Smith 40:40 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 40:41 Uh, but in the moment, you've got a crying child, and you feel like a piece of shit because you're leaving.

Dr. Julie Smith 40:46 Yeah. (laughs) And it- you know, it is important to listen to anyway, isn't it? Because like you say, even if you've got the values and you know it's there, it might be an indication that, "Do you know what? I do feel guilty, so maybe I need to just redress the balance a little bit." So, you know, it, I think people talk about balance as if you find this perfect spot and then you just don't move, and that's the perfect way to live, and it really isn't that. You know, if you, if you see someone on a, a balancing beam or a tightrope, they're always doing this. They're always moving slightly from side to side and readjusting, readjusting. Notice when you're going off too far-

Chris Williamson 41:18 Mm.

Dr. Julie Smith 41:18 ... readjust, re... And, um, and particularly for, you know, uh, as a, as a working parent, I find that's constantly... If you can listen to those feelings when, when they happen-

Chris Williamson 41:30 Mm.

Dr. Julie Smith 41:30 ... it can be... It's information. It's, you know, do I need to just spend some more time with them? You know?

Chris Williamson 41:35 Maybe I have spent a bit too much time in the book this week, or-

Dr. Julie Smith 41:38 Yeah. Do I need to, um, you know, block out the weekend and just play?

Chris Williamson 41:41 I suppose as well, uh, uh, an uncomfortable realization for... Look, look at me, bro sciencing parenting fr- bro parenting from the-

Dr. Julie Smith 41:47 Yeah. (laughs)

Chris Williamson 41:47 ... from the sidelines over here, but I imagine as well that you, th- there should also be a question, uh, that parents ask where they say, "Well, are my kids maybe too sensitive? Are they, are they, um, too unfamiliar with me being away from them? Are they unable to regulate, uh, e- even a small amount of time away which is unrealistic and is making them fragile in a way? Maybe I need to step in on the other side. Maybe they need, we need to do a little bit of training. I need to sort of bring them into land a little bit. I need to calm them down. I need to say, Hey, this is what's gonna happen. I'm gonna be away for 15 minutes. I've gotta go to the shop. I've gotta go and do whatever." Uh, so yeah, they're all signals, and I guess it's a good learning experience. And if you deny them, then the opportunity to learn is just out the window.

Dr. Julie Smith 42:29 Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And it- and it's all about opportunities to learn, isn't it? And like you say if, like you say i- if a child has been used to having you there, you know that sort of post-lockdown kind of experience for lots of parents actually where, you know, everyone had been at home for many months, it was really difficult-

Chris Williamson 42:42 Oh, interesting.

Dr. Julie Smith 42:43 ... for young children to then-

Chris Williamson 42:44 Transition out.

Dr. Julie Smith 42:44 ... go to nursery or go to s- to school or, you know, um-

Chris Williamson 42:49 I wonder what we'll see in a, a decade's time, um, from an attachment perspective, from a lifestyle perspective, from a psychological make-up perspective. You know, we may find out that kids are s- largely so robust that a two-year period during their formative y- years didn't make that much of a difference-

Dr. Julie Smith 43:05 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 43:05 ... or may- maybe it'll be really great or maybe it'll be really terrible and, uh, uh, time will tell.

Dr. Julie Smith 43:08 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 43:09 Uh, you mentioned before about people-pleasing, uh, this is something that over the last year or so I've realized that, uh, may be a pathology I'm more familiar with than I realized. What have you come to learn about people-pleasing, people pleasers, where it comes from?

Dr. Julie Smith 43:22 Yeah, so you know often, uh, often it makes sen- you know, often these things feel, um, confusing until you hear someone's story and then it makes complete sense and you kind of... I've had so many of these moments with people in the room where, you know, they come in and- and think y- y- you're just not gonna understand this. This is just bizarre and complex and I- I don't get it and- and then you spend a decent amount of time going through someone's story and then you get to this lovely point where you kind of say to each other "Of course, of course it is this way. How could it not be given everything that's happened?" And, you know, there isn't sort of one story or one scenario that always leads to people pleasing. There are lots of different ones and- but I think it's important to distinguish that people pleasing isn't being a nice person. It's- it's so much more than that. It's, um, it's being absolutely vigilant to how other people feel and placing that as your absolute priority over and above your own wellbeing, your own health, anything, so y- you know it's just terrifying the thought of displeasing someone else or, um, experiencing their disapproval or them not liking you or rejecting you. Um, and so, you know I've seen people who live in- in turmoil, um, trying to please everybody around them and keep them pleased, uh, which is not sustainable and so it creates chaos where, you know, you're- you're constantly chasing your tail and- and it gives other people a lot of power over you so you can end up in- in relationships that are sort of exploitive or, um, just not healthy for you. Um, and- and yeah, so I think it's one of those things that's sort of banded around, um, and- and it's something that a lot of us kind of do in bits and bobs-

Chris Williamson 45:23 Mm.

Dr. Julie Smith 45:23 ... kind of like, yeah, sometimes I'm like that or in certain situations I'm like that and- and some people spend their lives, um, really, really struggling with it.

Chris Williamson 45:32 The desire for us to take something we do a little bit and turn it into a label that describes our entire personality, uh, is quite strong. Even the pathologization of sort of normal emotions in that way, uh, which is odd, right, because, uh, both me and you, um, are fans of sort of emotionally informed therapy and people understanding their emotions. I also think it's very interesting. I think it's one of the most interesting things that you can do, uh, and yet I imagine that you have a similar problem to me as the- the overuse of therapy-speak online to describe like, "This person wasn't mean to me, they were narcissistic or they caused me trauma. Uh, you know, I'm not sad, I'm depressed." And uh, the- sort of the straying over into you crossed a boundary, that's- that's one of my bound- et cetera, et cetera.

Dr. Julie Smith 46:16 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 46:17 Um, so people a lot of the time will say yes to things when they mean to say no or they want to say no, they want to become firmer at being able to disappoint those around them. How can they become better at that?

Dr. Julie Smith 46:27 I think it is one of the most important skills anyone will ever learn actually because you're- you put yourself at risk if you- if you can't, uh, say no when you need to or you can't hold boundaries and there's that people-pleasing tendency. So if everything is about everybody else and what they want from you, um, and that's where it's not the same as being a nice person. So, you know if you're, um, i- if everybody else's needs and wishes and desires come first and you don't have the ability to put a stop to that when it doesn't fit, then you'll end up doing things that you regret and don't fit with your values or that don't feel like you being a nice person but it's because somebody else has more power over your behavior than you do. Um, so I think, uh, assertiveness skills are a big part of what's taught in therapy actually.

Chris Williamson 47:20 Mm.

Dr. Julie Smith 47:20 You know, teaching people to manage, uh, difficult people and- and people who perhaps have more power in a relationship or you know, um, it- it kind of sounds easy to be able to say no, um, and- and it's not because it's always packed out with lots of emotion and complex dynamics between two people and so it can be really difficult but it's absolutely learnable and so that's where, um, it's- it's important to remember that even if you've had a habit for life of putting everybody else first and being the "I don't mind, I'm fine-"

Chris Williamson 47:54 Mm.

Dr. Julie Smith 47:54 "... you know, whatever you think," um, type person that you can begin to change but it's often about learning s- specific skills and-

Chris Williamson 48:02 Where do you start? What are the skills?

Dr. Julie Smith 48:05 So, uh, a lot of it is practice in, uh, lighthearted ways. You know we talked about the sort of acting opposite to urges using POLOs and kind of, you know, situations that aren't necessarily, um, the most emotive, the most difficult for you. You kind of grade situations. Y- you could even make a list, to be fair. So you can, uh, make a list of the different situations where it's difficult to be assertive or state your own needs and you take the easiest one.... and you start with that. And you practise, and you have a go, and then you come back and you see how it went, what went well, what w- you know. And, um, so when I was working with someone on, um, on, on dealing with, uh, those kind of assertiveness skills or needing to state your needs in a workplace and, and, uh, you know, going home on time or taking holiday, those sorts of things. And so we started with something really, uh, that felt the easiest, and then we just assessed it. So, you know, stress test things and then learn from it. Actually, the anticipatory anxiety about it was much worse than actually the, the awkward moment of saying what I needed to say, and their reaction was not as bad as I thought it would be.

Chris Williamson 49:15 Mm.

Dr. Julie Smith 49:16 Um, you know, I had all that fear and discomfort, but that died down as soon as the moment was over, and then actually I got what I needed and, uh, the situation was better than it would have been, and I'm not living in resentment. So when, when you start small, you get these small victories that give you that momentum and give you that sort of drive to move forward and go for the next challenge. But you can't expect to suddenly go, "Right, from now on, I'm gonna be boundaried and assertive and strong and, and..."

Chris Williamson 49:46 You're not gonna be an overnight hard-ass.

Dr. Julie Smith 49:48 (laughs) Yeah. Right. It's just not gonna happen. You have to do these things gradually and start with the easiest thing, something that almost feels a bit silly, that's so easy it's almost a bit kind of, "Really? Am I starting here?"

Chris Williamson 49:59 Yeah.

Dr. Julie Smith 49:59 But then you get that little easy victory, and then you move on to the next one which is a little bit more dif- difficult, and, and so on.

Chris Williamson 50:04 That anticipatory anxiety thing is so funny because you're right. It's almost always your ability to, uh, turn the future situation into a nightmare is significantly better than it almost ever is.

Dr. Julie Smith 50:17 Mm.

Chris Williamson 50:17 And the stupid thing is that all of the nightmares that you genuinely, uh, encounter in the real world are ones that you probably didn't see coming. So you're, okay, so I have this unbelievable ability to predict things that aren't problems and not predict things that are going to be massive issues. Okay, brilliant, thanks. Uh...

Dr. Julie Smith 50:30 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 50:30 Amazing way that our brains are set up.

Dr. Julie Smith 50:32 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 50:32 Um, uh, but yeah, I, I, I think that that's right, and again, as a, uh, uh, slowly rehabilitating people pleaser, uh, that's, uh, a way that, that I've found to be better as well, um, to learn to be able to make demands of other people, to not subjugate my needs, uh, or believe that I don't have needs, or think that it's noble to not have needs-

Dr. Julie Smith 50:53 Mm.

Chris Williamson 50:53 ... to put somebody else ahead of me. "Oh, yeah, w- this is like a sort of a sacrificial type..." It's a sort of odd, like, emotional Puritanism where you think, uh, "If I feel bad but someone else feels good, net-net that means that it's good." You go-

Dr. Julie Smith 51:06 Mm.

Chris Williamson 51:07 ... "Eh, what if both... What if you could both feel good, but you just need to sort of make a, a demand?" Or...

Dr. Julie Smith 51:13 Yeah. Yeah, so true, and often you're... When you feel like you're being a nice person 'cause you're making them feel good, um, actually sometimes what you're doing is just appeasing them, and you're just scared of their emotional reaction or their disapproval, and it's, you know, feel... It's, it's motivated by fear of, of what their reaction might be, rather than, um, you know, your own values around, uh, what should happen in that situation.

Chris Williamson 51:38 It's also not very trustworthy. If somebody can't trust your no, it's very difficult to trust your yes.

Dr. Julie Smith 51:42 Mm.

Chris Williamson 51:42 And, you know, you hinted at, uh, i- i- if you don't have any choice, it's not particularly virtuous. You don't even feel good about doing the virtuous thing because you didn't have any other option.

Dr. Julie Smith 51:51 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 51:52 You didn't choose to be nice to this person. You simply couldn't be bad.

Dr. Julie Smith 51:55 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 51:55 And, um, I had... I wrote about this this week actually, that, uh, a friend of mine, uh, a few months ago, me and him had had a, a sort of well-meaning debate, but I was worried that I'd upset him. So I rang him a little bit afterwards, and I was like, "Hey, man, I just wanted to sort of check in and make sure that you're all right." He said, "Yeah, of course." Like, "Of course it was. It was totally fine." And then I s- he heard me start to chastise myself for going, "See? This is, this is my people pleasing nature coming out. This is me. I, I had to check in." He's like, "Whoa, whoa, whoa. Hang on a second. The reason that I love you as a friend, for one of the big reasons, is because you decided to put me first, even in this situation, even the one that was neutral, the fact that you did reach out and care." He's like, "Be careful pathologizing something which is actually a really virtuous part of who you are."

Dr. Julie Smith 52:37 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 52:37 And I'm like, "Right, okay." So, doing the thing was, uh, good. It's a, a, a, a, a part of my nature that my friends are glad that I have.

Dr. Julie Smith 52:47 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 52:48 But by not really... But by being compelled to do it as opposed to choosing to do it, that does kind of derogate some of the virtue that's behind it. So I was like, "Right, okay, so am I supposed to purposefully try and get rid of that, so briefly make myself a worse friend, to then relearn it again consciously so that I can finally get back to the place that I was in the beg-" I'm like, "That seems unnecessarily effortful, like to go around this whole loop to end up at the place that I started again, but this time it's c-..." You, you know what I mean?

Dr. Julie Smith 53:11 Yeah, yeah.

Chris Williamson 53:12 And I think this, uh, this line between virtue from compulsions and virtue from choices, and then this odd sense that we need to depro-... And it's like, right, okay, so if it's hard to do, does that make it more virtuous? Like, well, it's in my nature. Like, that's just me speaking forward. What a lovely way to be. Would you rather be somebody that's mean and you have to work hard to do that thing? Would that make you a better person if you were good but you were naturally mean? I'm sure I'd be able to find a way to castigate myself and whip myself into submission, say, "Well, I mean, you know that you did the thing, but you didn't feel like doing the thing, so that's..." It's... You know.

Dr. Julie Smith 53:44 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 53:44 The human desire to minimize, uh, our sort of good, uh, points is, um, robust, to say the least.

Dr. Julie Smith 53:51 Yeah, and, and like you say, it's all about, um, uh, the choice, and that, you know, that you clearly have an awareness of it now, and so y- if you found yourself in a situation where it was really detrimental to you and you knew that you probably should say something different but you'd said X because, um, because of that people pleasing tendency, then you'd be in a, a better position to be able to choose something different because you have that awareness.

Chris Williamson 54:16 Mm.

Dr. Julie Smith 54:16 And, and that's the key, isn't it? Is it's okay to have that as a trait and, and that sort of tendency, um, because if you're aware of it, then when it becomes troublesome, you stand a chance at doing something different. Doesn't mean you have to kind of eradicate everything and, you know, clean slate and start again. Um, you can... And, and that's the thing. You know, a lot of, um-... a lot of stuff now is about, y- like you say, pathologizing everything and, and as if it's something that's wrong with us and, and actually those, those tendencies can also be really lovable parts of us and things that other people appreciate about us-

Chris Williamson 54:53 Mm.

Dr. Julie Smith 54:53 ... or that we appreciate about ourselves, um, but that don't always work in every context.

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Chris Williamson 56:12 What's your advice for dealing with passive-aggressive people?

Dr. Julie Smith 56:16 Oh. Uh, so with, uh, passive-aggressive behavior, I think it's one of those things that you feel it very subtly, so y- and you start to question yourself. I think that's one of the key signs is that, that, you know, something will happen, maybe it's a, a compliment that feels more like an insult, or, uh, something that's, uh, where on the surface everything seems friendly, uh, superficially, but you come away feeling like you're not sure if they really liked you or, uh, you come away feeling sort of wounded in some way and, or maybe you're being kind of subtly excluded, um, and, and that sort of behavior is, is inviting you in to become... Es- especially if someone, uh, is being a pass- passive-aggressive by, um, taking on the role of a victim in a situation, they're inviting you to come in as a perpetrator and, and, and p- passive-aggressive-

Chris Williamson 57:16 Mm.

Dr. Julie Smith 57:16 ... behavior's one of those things that it's really difficult to, um, pinpoint exactly what it was and-

Chris Williamson 57:24 Well, the culpable deniability is the entire reason-

Dr. Julie Smith 57:26 Yes.

Chris Williamson 57:26 ... for the passive aggression.

Dr. Julie Smith 57:27 Yeah, so someone could, you know, I don't know, let's say, uh, you know, something great's happened in your life, you've been really successful, one of your friends has a problem with that and, and so starts sort of ignoring you or trying to exclude you and stuff, but as soon as you, uh, pick up on that and, and say, "Are we all right?" Then all is denied, right? They, the, uh, "Everything's fine. I've just been busy. Haven't been able to..." You know, and, and so, uh, you, you're kind of stuck in this place of, "I can't really address it because they will deny it, um, and yet I feel terrible and I don't feel connected to this person anymore. I feel like they maybe don't like me or something's going on." And, and the trouble is the more you then, uh, get sucked into kind of joining the circus in that way and playing the game-

Chris Williamson 58:16 Mm.

Dr. Julie Smith 58:16 ... um, the more you lose, I think. Um, so a lot of it is about watching and learning. You know, if someone reveals themselves to you that they're not okay with you in a certain way or, um, w- that, uh, y- that friendship is now conditional on you, I don't know, making yourself smaller or, um, uh, not doing certain things or-

Chris Williamson 58:39 Mm.

Dr. Julie Smith 58:39 ... associating with certain people, um, then all you can do is learn from that and make your own decisions then about whether that's a friendship for you or-

Chris Williamson 58:47 Mm.

Dr. Julie Smith 58:47 ... whether that's something that y- the friendship can overcome. You know, it might be a, a blip, but it might also be something bigger.

Chris Williamson 58:53 Yeah. I am intimately familiar with passive aggression and, uh, it, it never really points at the thing that someone's trying to say. It's this sort of shadow sentence that gestures in the direction of it whilst also being able to be completely denied that it is that thing that we're talking about so that... It's ki- it's, it's quite a cowardly form of communication.

Dr. Julie Smith 59:22 Mm.

Chris Williamson 59:22 I'm aware that it's a coping mechanism, there's lots of reasons that people do it, but it's a very cowardly form of, of communication because it doesn't ever actually say the thing that you mean. It just sort of points in the direction and then gets mad at you if you don't realize it.

Dr. Julie Smith 59:34 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 59:35 Uh, so, uh, Neil Strauss says, "Unspoken expectations are premeditated resentments." And I think that's sort of passive aggression in a, in a nutshell.

Dr. Julie Smith 59:43 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 59:44 But, yeah, you know, there's two, at least for me, there's sort of two broad approaches, the first one being, like, call it out as gently as possible. Be like, "Look. Hey, man, uh, it feels like such and such a thing has happened. I'm not really too sure what it is, um, but I don't like this sort of lingering sense of something unspoken. Help me understand here, like, what's, what's going on? This is an open forum, I'm not gonna judge you, just let me know." Uh, and for me, uh, with that, you know, that's a really... As long as you deploy it in the right way, that's a really open door policy, that's an olive branch for somebody to go, "Oh, okay, it's a bit safe. Yeah, do you know what it is? Like, y- s- I, I know that you don't even think about it, but you said this thing the other week and fuck, it's just got to me and I haven't really been able to stop thinking about it." And you go, "Awesome." Like, water under the bridge and you can then round it out quite nicely by saying something like, "Hey, man, look. I, I just wanna let you know, if this ever, ever happens, if anything even remotely close to this happens again, just call it out."... like, just say it to me straight away. Like-

Dr. Julie Smith 1:00:42 Is, is that what happened for you in your situation?

Chris Williamson 1:00:44 I, I mean, I, uh, like I say, uh, uh, illustrious career of dealing with passive-aggressive people. And, um, but that's at least my current working theory of one of the better ways to deal with it.

Dr. Julie Smith 1:00:53 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:00:53 And, um, uh, the- the second side of it is, look, like if you've put that forward and this person's sort of behaving this way, I think going, "Okay, like I- I- I trust what you're saying, but I- it still feels like there's something lingering there." And, you know, reliably now, those situations, those people have just got phased out of my life.

Dr. Julie Smith 1:01:12 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:01:13 So I'm like, "Hey man, I-

Dr. Julie Smith 1:01:14 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:01:14 ... I overthink enough. I don't need to be overthinking about your thinking as well."

Dr. Julie Smith 1:01:19 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:01:19 Like I've got enough of my own thinking to overthink about.

Dr. Julie Smith 1:01:21 Yeah. And- and there's a big decision to make, isn't there, when- when someone is behaving in that way towards you, and, you know, friendships are valuable, so, you know, it's important not to, um, make that decision impulsively but to, like you say, do that over time. So, you know, someone might make a mistake because they're having a hard time, and- and that might change and- and get better after a while, or it might not. And so with that sort of watch and learn approach, take it in, adjust your- the- the amount that you trust someone, so adjust how much you, uh, share with them, adjust how much you trust them to, you know, um, know certain information or whatever, um, so that you can kind of, not say that you're always guarded, but so that you're just protecting yourself if this person is revealing themselves not to have your best interest at heart.

Chris Williamson 1:02:14 Mm.

Dr. Julie Smith 1:02:15 Um, and then gradually come to a decision about whether this friendship is really, um, for you or not, whether it really, uh, adds to your life or i- if it actually takes away from- from your life. Um, and, uh, but yeah, I think sometimes that- that decision has to come just carefully and considered so that you're not sort of impulsively, um, pushing someone out and then later realize it, there might've been an explanation for it.

Chris Williamson 1:02:42 Mm.

Chris Williamson 1:02:43 It seems like, I think talking about relationships, intimate relationships, there's sort of tw- two broad buckets of challenges early on in relationships, one being you loving somebody who doesn't feel the same and the other being somebody loving you but you sort of struggling to let them get in close, the sort of anxious versus avoidant, I suppose, the push versus the pull.

Dr. Julie Smith 1:03:05 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:03:05 What's your advice for these two buckets of people?

Dr. Julie Smith 1:03:09 Uh, yeah, so the, I mean, it's quite, um, it's quite common actually, this sort of, uh, avoidant person, uh, getting into a relationship with a- an anxious, um, attached person. So, uh, if you're sort of anxiously attached, you might, uh, always be, you know, worried about what that other person feels and you will want more affection from them and more reassurance that they still love you, and- and, you know, that's based on those early attachments. Whereas the avoidant person, they still need love and they still need that reassurance, but they're not gonna ask you for it. And, uh, when things get too, uh, sort of intimate, then that will fill them with some sort of uncomfortable feelings, maybe fear, um, and they will kind of shut that down. And it doesn't mean they don't need love from the other person, they still benefit from connection, they just find it really difficult to, um, to reach out for it and to, um, and to sit in that sort of exposed state, uh, that vulnerable state of- of being close to someone or being intimate with someone. So, I think what you're doing when- when you're working with couples who are in that kind of relationship, the risk is that the relationship ends because the- the avoidant person becomes so overwhelmed by the anxious person who keeps trying, keeps trying, keeps trying, um, that they kind of, um, push back or become sort of rejecting, and then that's too much for that anxious person and in the end they-

Chris Williamson 1:04:44 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Dr. Julie Smith 1:04:44 ... say, "I- I can't do any more of this."

Chris Williamson 1:04:46 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Julie Smith 1:04:46 And they move on. Um, and so what you're aiming for in that scenario is, um, to, and- and it's important to, I know w- we, you said at the beginning there about, you know, someone who doesn't love you back, this is the kind of scenario where these people do love each other.

Chris Williamson 1:05:01 Yeah.

Dr. Julie Smith 1:05:01 They just have different styles of attachment.

Chris Williamson 1:05:03 Yeah.

Dr. Julie Smith 1:05:03 And so what you're aiming for is awareness of each person's cycle, uh, you know, own sort of cycle or pattern of dealing with people in the relationship so that they have some level of appreciation and a degree of patience for the other person and what they're, you know, what they're experiencing, but for both of those to aim for a more secure attachment style, so, uh, to edge towards somewhere in the middle, which involves compromise from both people. So, it involves, you know, the person who's more avoidant, um, building up their tolerance for intimacy and closeness, um, and for- for the anxious person to build up their, uh, resilience for uncertainty and, uh, the tendency to kind of seek reassurance and- and calming that.

Chris Williamson 1:05:52 Mm.

Dr. Julie Smith 1:05:52 So, so it involves both people kind of working to fit together, and it's absolutely possible, um, you know, there are lots of couples with those sorts of styles of, that- that work really well, um, yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:06:03 What about the person that doesn't love you back, the, uh, I guess we're one step before the relationship here, you know, pining, pandering, clogging for somebody who just you want them and they don't want you?

Dr. Julie Smith 1:06:18 Yeah. I think, uh, you know, there are just, oh, I don't know, probably thousands and thousands of books written on that kind of scenario and that sort of unrequited love and things, and, um, I think, you know, when we're talking about the people-pleasing side, some people will have that tendency to, uh, uh, stay in relationships in which the other person has no affection for them, um, because of the fear of being alone, being rejected, and-... I think you make better decisions about those kind of relationships if you work on having your own back. So, i- it's much less scary, the idea of, uh, leaving someone or being rejected by someone if, if you know that you will look after yourself and do the best by yourself. And, uh, y- you know, you're much more resilient to any of that, and you're much less likely to put up with someone who, who doesn't love you back and treats you poorly-

Chris Williamson 1:07:15 Mm.

Dr. Julie Smith 1:07:15 ... if you have your own back and you're looking after yourself. So, having that kind of, um, good relationship with yourself where you, you come first, uh, helps you to be able to do it.

Chris Williamson 1:07:28 Isn't it strange? We've got this sort of odd balance when we get into relationships with people. Before we met them-

Dr. Julie Smith 1:07:35 Mm.

Chris Williamson 1:07:36 ... we were a self-sufficient human, perfectly fine, most people, m- maybe in many ways preferable, uh, to, uh, being in a relationship and then you decide to, you decide to let this other person into your life and you think, "Right, okay, well, I, I, I know that in order to fully love this person, in order to integrate them into my lifestyle, I need to not just sort of continue to do the independent thing that I was doing with the window dressing of, like, some companionship every so often, but they actually infuse themselves into it. I begin to, um, take heed of what they say. I care about their opinions, uh, th- there is a bit of them in me." And if that leaves, there is this void there-

Dr. Julie Smith 1:08:20 Mm.

Chris Williamson 1:08:20 ... and you're sort of trying to create this balancing act. And then as things get more and more, you think, "Well, maybe even their opinion of me is more important than my opinion of me," and I am so concerned about what, wh- whether they're okay that I can't be okay without that. And if they were to leave, I don't even know what would be left.

Dr. Julie Smith 1:08:40 Mm.

Chris Williamson 1:08:40 But in order to have... In order for you to hold on to the initial type of, sort of ruthless independence that you had before, it feels like you wouldn't ever really fully be able to let that person integrate into your life. So, yeah, I, this sort of, uh, delicate balance between you are okay, you can back yourself, you are not a fragile little mouse-

Dr. Julie Smith 1:09:01 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:09:02 ... and also if you want to experience everything that there is to enjoy in a relationship, you need to allow yourself, you need to open up that side of yourself in order to be potentially hurt.

Dr. Julie Smith 1:09:13 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:09:14 Uh, it's a-

Dr. Julie Smith 1:09:16 Yeah, and it's-

Chris Williamson 1:09:16 ... uh, not a simple balance.

Dr. Julie Smith 1:09:17 Yeah, and it's, it's a risk, but, um, it's a risk that's worth it because we, we do, um, a lot better in relationships, um, than we do outside of them. And, you know, you, you, uh, there is so much to gain from that risk that it makes it worth it. Um, but you do make yourself vulnerable going into a relationship, don't you? And, um, so when you're kind of at a stage where you're, you're not sure whether, um, the relationship is gonna end, like you say, when, when people have been so into a relationship, um, and sacrificed so much of themselves that it's become all about the other person, ending that relationship then can be this process of rebuilding. You know, you don't know what your preferences are because you've spent, you know, so many years prioritizing somebody else's. And, but it's absolutely possible to do that and to, to rediscover, y- you know, yourself and your own preferences and the things that you like to do or th- your own goals and your own values. But it, you know, takes a bit of work.

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Chris Williamson 1:11:17 I suppose a lot of the time, the, the sort of disagreements, I guess, before the relationship breaks down, uh, the kind of arguments that people have, uh, I had Ben Shapiro on the show recently, uh, who's a, a good debater, and he mentioned that, uh, he has to remind himself that being loved by his wife is more important than winning an argument. Because a lot of the time, regardless of whether he's in the right or in the wrong-

Dr. Julie Smith 1:11:40 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:11:41 ... he, he's very well-trained. It's like saying, "I got into a fist fight, and I'm an M- MMA fighter."

Dr. Julie Smith 1:11:45 (laughs) .

Chris Williamson 1:11:45 Um, he has a very particular set of skills. Humans hate being so wrong so much, I think that we can become, uh, myopic about this sort of stuff, that we just don't want to lose the argument to our partner-

Dr. Julie Smith 1:11:57 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:11:58 ... even if we might be in the wrong, even if the outcome results in us being more miserable or things being more sad.

Dr. Julie Smith 1:12:06 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:12:07 H- what's your advice for, uh, better disagreements and for sort of letting go of this need to win arguments?

Dr. Julie Smith 1:12:14 It's interesting, isn't it? 'Cause when you're in the moment and you're angry with someone, it feels as if the best feeling is gonna be when you prove that you're right and you come out on top. And, and you're the only person that, that thinks you look good when you win. And, and actually if you're in a loving relationship with someone and, you know, you prove yourself right and you feel like you've won the argument, what the other person then feels is probably a bit crushed and a bit disappointed in you for, uh, being so ruthless with them. And, and so it's so important, and I think-You learn this over time, the longer that you're in relationships. You learn how to, uh, argue in a way that leads to reconnection and, uh, the, the aim is no longer to work out who's winning and, and whether the relationship is gonna continue. The aim is to resolve it in a way that doesn't hurt either of you too much.

Chris Williamson 1:13:15 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Julie Smith 1:13:15 And, um, and arguments that focus on reconnection and repair as opposed to winner and loser lead to s- much, much stronger relationships, um, in which you, you can argue and still trust each other.

Chris Williamson 1:13:34 I always had this thing in my mind, uh, i- this is early bro science for me, this is, like, early 20s bro science stuff, uh, where I noticed that the tone that was set at the very beginning of a relationship that we get into very much sort of determined expectations down the line that, um, you know, during the first, you know, six months or whatever, three months where everything's amazing, uh, the expectations coming down the line, if you spend four nights a week together because you're besotted and you can't think about anything except for them, et cetera, et cetera, but really where you want to bring this relationship in to land is you probably see each other two nights a week or whatever, um, the change, the pivot that then gets made or this particular demeanor that you have in the beginning, maybe you're more aloof, you're playing it more cool, or maybe you're more lovey-dovey or whatever it might be, um, that that, uh, tone-setting in the beginning-

Dr. Julie Smith 1:14:28 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:14:29 ... is, uh, highly determinant of what is expected down the line. And quite rightly so, like, this is the relationship that I got into. What's this one? Like, why's, what, what, what's happened with this sort of adjustment here? Um, but I get the sense that with disagreement, with attachment style, with regulation, co-regulation, with the way that you, um, make up after you've argued, et cetera.

Dr. Julie Smith 1:14:52 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:14:52 Uh, setting the tone for that as early as possible as well is maybe even more important because that is going to determine, or at least my current working theory is that most relationships live and die not on how happy you guys are together but how well you disagree.

Dr. Julie Smith 1:15:11 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:15:11 Because, like, insufficient happiness may be a reason for a relationship to break up, but what's more likely is too much disagreement, too much unhappiness, right? Like, let's get past that first 'cause that predicates you being able to access the happiness thing in any case. And, um, yeah, the sort of direct communication that, "Hey, when X happened, I felt Y. I'm sure it wasn't your fault, I'm sure that you didn't mean to make me feel that way, but I, I, I don't wanna lie to you, I just want this