Approval To Speak Freely | Konstantin Kisin | Modern Wisdom Podcast 235

1. 0:00 – 15:00

   If you allow politicians…

   1. KKKonstantin Kisin0:00

      If you allow politicians to, to conduct themselves in this way and to delegitimize the democratic process, which both, uh, sides have done, uh, but particularly in my opinion, the, the Democrats in America and the left in this country as well, then what you end up with is a situation where we are now, where 36% of both Democrats and Republicans feel, uh, that violence is justified to achieve your political ends. So a third of both supporter groups are quite happy to use violence, which has gone up from 8% about two years ago. So if you've got that situation, the election is in dispute, both parties are undermining the democratic process and encouraging their followers essentially to feel like violence is a way of resolving this issue, not a good recipe.

   2. CWChris Williamson0:42

      (wind blows) The stakes have been raised now, haven't they, based on the Darren Grimes incident? I'm now culpable for what you say, so please go gently on me or I'm gonna be in prison, and that, and you'll be in a gulag.

   3. KKKonstantin Kisin0:56

      Well, I'm gonna struggle to say anything now, aren't I?

   4. CWChris Williamson0:58

      (laughs)

   5. KKKonstantin Kisin0:59

      Because I, because I apparently am so ridiculously controversial with my very mainstream opinions that, uh, yeah, we're both in trouble.

   6. CWChris Williamson1:07

      If we sit in silence for the next hour, that is one surefire way that we can't get in trouble.

   7. KKKonstantin Kisin1:12

      That could offend people who really wanted to listen to us talk though, and they might report us to the police, and, uh, yeah, you never know, man. But if you remember, you came to see my show in Edinburgh last year, and this is exactly what I was talking about. Should it be illegal to have offensive opinions? And here we are, and essentially the police are investigating people, not even for their own opinions, for stuff someone else said on their show that they broadcast. Um, and, uh, you know, you add to that the response to the pandemic and how that's affecting our civil liberties as well, uh, it, it's not a great time.

   8. CWChris Williamson1:46

      No, not at all. So can you give us a brief overview and take us through what we've learned from the Darren Grimes situation, in your opinion?

   9. KKKonstantin Kisin1:52

      Well, so for people who don't know, Darren Grimes is a, a conservative right-wing commentator. He, I think is, uh, rather hated by, uh, many people on my side of the referendum de- debate, people who voted Remain, as I did. Uh, a lot of people who are sort of very, uh, obsessed with that issue, in a way that I'm not, uh, felt that because he was part of the campaign to make that happen, he was investigated three times by the Electoral Commission for his involvement in that. Uh, so he's got a lot of enemies. Uh, I think that's part of it, for sure. Uh, but basically, he had Dr. David Starkey, controversial historian, who made some what I thought were ill-judged comments. And I know David, we've had him on the show, he didn't say anything like that on our show. Uh, but on Darren's, he did make some, uh, controversial comments, which I, as I say, I thought were all ill-judged. Um, and this happened a few months ago. There was a big furore. Dr. David Starkey was properly canceled for it. Um, he apologized. Eventually, Darren apologized for, for not challenging him on what he said. And that was sort of the end of the matter. Uh, I think a lot of people felt that e- even though I th- I think many people felt that he, it was appropriate that David Starkey suffered some consequences for what he said, uh, equally, many people felt that maybe the consequences were quite harsh. Uh, whe- wherever you sit on that, I respect both views on that personally. Um, uh, and, uh, that was sort of the end of the matter for, for most people, I think, until we found out last week as we record this, that the police had invited... Initially, we learned that it was Darren Grimes and then also then Darre- uh, David Starkey had both been invited for what is euphemistically called a voluntary interview. Uh, interesting it's called that, because if you don't attend, you get arrested.

   10. CWChris Williamson3:46

       (laughs)

   11. KKKonstantin Kisin3:47

       So, so the voluntary nature of that interview is a little bit interesting. Um, and, uh, yeah, so essentially, we, we're talking about the police investigating people for things that they say and for i- i- interviewers for things that their guests say. Uh, we, we had Darren Grimes on the show pretty much straight away because we felt it was a very important issue to raise to the public awareness. There were lots of other mainstream media coverage as well. And hopefully, as a result of all of that publicity that, that happened, uh, the police said they're, they've got a senior, uh, officer reviewing the case. They've postponed the interviews that they were supposed to have. Uh, and at the time, actually everyone from Ash Sarkar all the way through to Priti Patel and Sajid Javid and many, many other people who at the time felt that, uh, David Starkey's comments were completely wrong, some of them said they were horrible, racist, et cetera, even those people were saying, "Aren't the police going too far here?" A- and so as a result, it seems that the police have rowed back. They've realized there's a public backlash. Uh, how that ends, we don't know, because they haven't closed the investigation. Um, yeah, but it, but it, it's a, it's a troubling thing, because, uh, I would ima- and it's, what I found really surprising about this, and I'm not, again, one of these sort of defund the BBC people, uh, but I do think the BBC is biased, and what I found fascinating was they didn't cover the story on their mainstream news at all. So while it was being talked about in The Telegraph, in The Times, it was on the front page of The Times, I think, at least on the online version, the BBC simply pretended it wasn't happening, which I thought was very interesting.

   12. CWChris Williamson5:32

       Why do you think that's happening?

   13. KKKonstantin Kisin5:34

       Uh, I don't know exactly, but I've felt for some time now the, the BBC are not reporting on cultural issues objectively, whether you, you know, the economy or all that sort of thing, there's more of a conversation to be had about which way they lean. Some people might even argue that they lean to the right on those things. But certainly when it comes to people like Darren, who, as I say, hated by many people on the Remain side and many people on the left as well, uh, I don't think he, he got a fair shake at it. If you remember, you know...... a couple of years ago when I turned down that SafeSpace contract. Uh, that was in every newspaper in the country and the BBC covered it very prominently. It was right up there, and that was an issue that many people felt had a lot to do with free speech. Well, to me, this isn't an issue of Darren, uh, being conservative or not or whatever. I don't, uh, share many of his views. The point is, something like that is an issue that everyone should care about because if you're a BBC journalist, well, you know, the BBC has had people like Tommy Robinson and Katie Hopkins on their show, people that I would not have on my show, right? On Triggernometry, we wouldn't have them on. So, you know, they are more liable to that sort of problem than we are in a way and yet they're not saying anything about it. And I think it speaks to some kind of bias. Now, what exactly that is, I don't know. Uh, I've been on the BBC many, many times and my perception of it is that it's, it's full of well-meaning people, uh, who all think the same. So no matter how, how hard they try, and I think a lot of people genuinely do try on the BBC to introduce balance, but if everyone in your organization thinks the same way on these cultural issues of the culture war, then it's very difficult to then present a balanced view of an issue. And with the news coverage of Darren Grimes, I think they just, you know, they genuinely just, like basically suppressed it.

   14. CWChris Williamson7:26

       Yeah, man. I mean, when I first delved into the situation, I'd missed the original David Starkey interview, so I had to track back and kind of get a, a grasp on everything in real time. Um, but man, I'm really, really concerned, I, or would've been concerned had this backtracking by the police not occurred. The ability or the, the, the, um, potential for me as an independent podcaster doing... It's a lovely bedroom, but doing it from his bedroom. Um, the potential that I could have anyone on. I've spoken to porn stars, I've spoken to the, uh, girl who started the UK version of OnlyFans. I've spoken to Douglas Murray, like all the same thing obviously. And, um, like-

   15. KKKonstantin Kisin8:08

       You know how to pick your guests, man. You go for the top.

   16. CWChris Williamson8:11

       I really do.

   17. KKKonstantin Kisin8:11

       You just go for the crème de la crème. Yeah.

   18. CWChris Williamson8:13

       It's that filtering. Exactly.

   19. KKKonstantin Kisin8:14

       We sh- we should reconsider. We talk to all these boring political analysts and stuff like that. You've gone straight in there with the best.

   20. CWChris Williamson8:20

       Brazzers, that's who... The top 10 on Brazzers, that's who you need to speak to. Um, and so I've got these people on, they could say anything and somehow I would be liable for what they say.

   21. KKKonstantin Kisin8:31

       Mm-hmm.

   22. CWChris Williamson8:31

       Now I'm going to guess that the only potential justification for this would be to treat an independent podcaster like Darren is, like you guys are, like I am, as a broadcaster, as if we're, as if we have some sort of network in the traditional media sense of the word, that we are broadcasting media and therefore we are liable for what occurs on our channel. Is that... If you were to, um, steel man the argument, do you think that's kind of where it comes from?

   23. KKKonstantin Kisin8:58

       Yeah, I think that's exactly where it comes from. A- and look, we're all dealing with a new world i- in which all of this stuff is unusual. I mean, podcasts have only been around 10, 15 years and so our law is probably not all that well adjusted to, to the whole situation. So I, I think, uh, you know, o- obviously big media corporations, they have whole legal departments that deal with these, that train the presenters, you know, what you can and can't allow guests to say, what can and can't go unchallenged. Even there, there's quite a lot of bias in how, how all of that's treated. Uh, so it's perfectly possible. I mean, you talk about Douglas Murray, one of the most prominent conservative commentators in the country, uh, and maybe, you know, a lot of the stuff he's been talking about lately, you wouldn't even say that it's a conservative view particularly, but it's perfectly normal for him to go on the BBC and be called far right by a fellow guest, uh, without necessarily being challenged, that guest being challenged in the moment, he then has to threaten to sue, they then apologize, right? Whereas i- if, if you'd gone and, and slandered somebody from the other side, it wouldn't be the same. So for someone like me who's bang in the center of politics, those hypocrisies are very difficult to ignore 'cause they're just right there staring you in the, in the face. Um, but, but yeah, I think the steel man version of the argument is we're broadcasting stuff to an unspecified number of people, and that means we're subject to broadcasting regulation and that means that we are responsible to some extent for what people say. Uh, having said that, there is a difference between television and, and a podcast because television or radio, that is broadcast into an unspecified number of people who may or may not have opted in for that particular content, right? So if you've just got the radio playing in the background and then someone comes on and starts, as in David Starkey's case, talking about damn Blacks or something like that, you know, y- y- y- there's... That's, that's different to you clicking on a podcast which is clearly discussing, you know, the history of slavery, let's say, and then being triggered that that's happened. So there, there is a, there is a difference to be had, but I'm not... You know, I, I don't necessarily think I have the, the answer particularly because should we be able to just have anyone on to say whatever they want without any repercussions whatsoever? Probably not. You know, there, there is some responsibility. I mean, we are subject to the laws of the land. If you have someone on who, you know, incites violence, well, I don't think that should be exempt simply 'cause you're doing it from your bedroom, right? So there is, there's a way to calibrate it, but I think holding us to exactly the same standard as the BBC or ITV, I think that, that's taking it a bit far. So, uh, I guess we'll wait and see what, what, what, what the, what our legislative bodies come up with.

   24. CWChris Williamson11:42

       Yeah, for sure. Both you just now and during the discourse I heard this week with Darren as well, one of the things that he said in his defense is, "Um, I was basically starstruck by David Starkey, stark struck, um, and I didn't challenge his views as I should have done." Does that make any difference? Like, does it make any difference about whether or not you decide to challenge someone's views? The views are out there.... in the ether based on your broadcast. I'm not sure what my position is about whether or not him saying, "Hang on a second, David, you can't really say that," like does that change what he said in its essence?

   25. KKKonstantin Kisin12:23

       Well, I- I don't... I'm not a lawyer, so I don't know the law on that. That seems to certainly be the mainstream approach, right? If you get someone controversial on, you don't let them talk.

   26. CWChris Williamson12:32

       (laughs)

   27. KKKonstantin Kisin12:32

       That's- that's how they do it, right? So- so maybe that's what exempts you from being associated then with those views. Maybe people assume, uh, that, you know, if you let me talk, that means you agree with everything I'm saying.

   28. CWChris Williamson12:45

       Silence is compliance.

   29. KKKonstantin Kisin12:48

       Well, yeah. There was during this whole, uh, episode recently, people said that silence is consent, which I thought was quite interesting given, uh, the MeToo stuff we've had before. I mean, it doesn't seem fit (both laugh) with that argument.

   30. CWChris Williamson13:04

       Wow.
2. 15:00 – 30:00

   (laughs) …

   1. CWChris Williamson15:00

      sent me an update over, uh, his- the email, "Dear Mr. Grimes, we're, um, writing to inform you that the senior officer has been appointed to conduct a review of this matter and ensure that it remains proportionate and that all appropriate, uh, lines of inquiry are being considered. While this review takes place, please note that at this time you are no longer required to attend Kingston Police Station. We will contact you in due course with further updates." I mean, that's what happens when you marshal the forces of darkness on-

   2. NANarrator15:27

      (laughs)

   3. CWChris Williamson15:29

      ... on Twitter, (laughs) which was absolutely happening. But yeah, man, I- I, um, it's worrying. That's... You know, previously the- the Count Dankula stuff, I appreciate that there are this sort of death by a thousand cuts situation going on. I was able to distance myself from that and feel quite detached 'cause I'm like, "Unlikely that I would be in the situation where that occurs." But, you know, Darren is slap bang in my wheelhouse. Uh, and he's a northern lad as well. So yeah, that- that really, that sort of shook me a little bit, considering how much I care about this project.

   4. NANarrator16:00

      Mm-hmm.

   5. CWChris Williamson16:00

      That was- that was uncomfortable to find out.

   6. KKKonstantin Kisin16:02

      I know what you mean, uh, about Dankula. And of course, he's not the only person that this has happened to. We can go down the list. Harry Miller, who- who- who retweeted a supposedly transphobic poem of some kind on Twitter, gets a call from the police saying, "We need to check your thinking." Right? That's happened. Posie Parker, again, a gender critical, uh, former feminist, she was interviewed by the police for expressing some of her views on trans issues. Um, Chelsey Russell, who I talked about in my- in my show last year, uh, the- the girl from, I think she was from Liverpool, uh, she- she posted the lyrics of a song on her Instagram in tribute to a friend of hers who'd been killed in a car crash and it was a rap song so it contained the N-word, and she was actually prosecuted and convicted for, uh, whatever it would have been, offensive language or something like that. Eventually got overturned on appeal. So we're seeing a lot of these cases coming through in the pipeline. And what it essentially means is, yes, of course I understand your feeling of like, "Well, look, Dankula didn't really affect me, whereas Darren is more in my wheelhouse," but the reality of all of this stuff is none of us can afford to only look at our own situation on this issue. You know, it's like, it's a bit like saying, you know, "Would you approve of summary execution for people who commit certain offenses?" Well, you- you might never commit that particular offense, but that doesn't mean you would necessarily approve of people being, you know, pulled up on the street, lined up against the wall. And it's the same with the free speech issue. Uh, yes, a lot of people weren't on board with Dankula. They didn't think his- his sketch or whatever it was was funny, uh, but that doesn't necessarily mean that he should have been convicted of hate speech or fined 800 pounds or- or- or... and- and be a hate criminal for life, which is essentially where he's- he is now. So I think you... Principles like this always require you to defend people that you don't agree with and don't like, and that's just an inevitability. Uh, most people prefer to just stick to the comfortable, which is, "Well, I like this guy, therefore I'll defend him," but actually none of us can afford to do that.

   7. CWChris Williamson18:12

      Yeah, a principle isn't a principle until it costs you. Moving on, moving on from the Darren Grimes situation, uh, what unique insight has your cultural habit- heritage given you when looking at the world in 2020? Have you got some particularly interesting insights based on where you're from?

   8. KKKonstantin Kisin18:30

      Hm. Well, I grew up in Russia in the '90s, uh, immediately, uh, during and after, well before as well, but before, during, and after the collapse of the Soviet Union. So I saw a very stable society where everything was going smoothly, very predictable, everybody went to work from 9:00 AM, left work at 5:00 PM, went home, uh, made food, spent time with their children. Everything was very stable, very consistent, very predictable, to overnight society being transformed into something completely different and largely unrecognizable. People who, uh, up to that point were very successful, wealthy, they had a good income, they had a predictable future, they had a solid career ahead of them, suddenly for, for some people that, that just disappeared overnight. And equally there was lots of opportunity for other people who had, you know, uh, new ideas or i- as in the Russian case were just prepared to be moral or whatever it was, all the opportunities in between, um, to build something new. And I think what we're seeing now with the coronavirus and the response to it and how our countries are dealing with it is much less shocking to me, and also my co-host from Trigonometry, Francis, who's, who's family are from Venezuela where he's seen something very similar. You know, we are not really shocked or particularly troubled by the situation in the same way because we're like, "Well yeah, this is..." You know, this idea that everything was always gonna continue in the same way and be stable and predictable and, and comfortable, um, that's, that's never gonna be true over, over the long term. Th- these shocks will always happen. So, for me, that background of growing up in a very unstable environment that literally flipped overnight, uh, it, it, it gives me an insight into, into what's gonna happen now. And, and, you know, I feel desperately sad for a lot of people whose lives have been thrown up into complete chaos, many people losing work, jobs, security, you know, and, and, and it's gonna run and run because the economic impact of what's happened hasn't even been felt yet. We're probably gonna have the biggest recession we've had for, for centuries.

   9. CWChris Williamson20:35

      Well, that's the thing where we're, we've got the pain now in the immediate, but it's our children who are going to pay the financial burden with either inflation, interest rates, whatever way that the governments decide to try and recuperate all of this-

   10. KKKonstantin Kisin20:50

       Hm.

   11. CWChris Williamson20:50

       ... expenditure. It's all well and good people having parties in the street 'cause Rishi is gonna throw 8 billion at you, but that, that 8 billion needs repaying some, at some point.

   12. KKKonstantin Kisin20:59

       Hm. Sure. And the 8 billion is a tiny fraction of what we're really talking about. Uh, there was a story in The Times yesterday about the people who are designing this government app for track and trace, uh, doing it mainly on Excel, as we now know. Uh, they're getting paid about seven and a half grand a day. So they are basically on Premier League footballer wages to make this shitty app that doesn't work. Uh, and that, the total cost of that is about £12 billion just for that. So we're, we're basically throwing, uh, bad money after bad money after bad money, uh, at this whole problem. And I think your analysis is somewhat optimistic. You say it's our children who are gonna pay for this. No, no. It's gonna be us first. We're gonna pay for it.

   13. CWChris Williamson21:40

       (laughs)

   14. KKKonstantin Kisin21:40

       And our children are gonna pay for it. Right. A- and then their children are gonna pay for it too. Um, so I... But, but equally, as I say, uh, a time of crisis is also a time of opportunity. The people who adjust and adapt and learn from this and understand that, you know, the traditional way of doing things isn't gonna work, uh, and respond to that with ingenuity and creativity, they will benefit tremendously too. Uh, and so my background I think gives me the understanding that th- this shit happens. This shit always happens and you gotta be ready to, to adjust and move with the times. So for us, for example, you know, Trigonometry used to be a one episode a week, uh, show, uh, and we might do a livestream once a week as well. When the lockdown hit we were like, "Well, we're two comedians who don't have a stage to perform on anymore. Let's do more interviews, let's do more livestreams." So we are now broadcasting a piece of content an hour long every day except Monday. All right. We've ramped that up and our fans have, have responded. We've got, we've grown our audience massively. The support for the show has, has been great as well, although we're starting to see it, you know, it's starting to dip now as people struggle with, with, you know, with what we're talking about, with the economy, people are losing jobs. You know, somebody who, who was supporting us at quite a high level giving us £50, £100 a month, uh, those people who you'd think, "Well, they're gonna be safe and sound and protected from all of this stuff," actually, you know, some of them are writing to us saying, "Look, we loved the show and my family watch it every Sunday on, on our TV but, you know, I've lost my job or, you know, my hours have been cut." Or whatever it might be. Uh, so people, you know, people are being affected. But my, my broader point is in this sort of environment, uh, a lot of people are gonna suffer and it's terrible. There will be some people who benefit and I guess the question for all of us is, well, everything else being the way that it is, which one of those two do you want to be?

   15. CWChris Williamson23:39

       Yeah, very much so, man. I, I really like the, um, insight that you've got that you lived through a period of change and chaos and saw, you sort of straddled both before, during, and after, um, which again, a very, very unique view.

   16. KKKonstantin Kisin23:54

       Mm.

   17. CWChris Williamson23:54

       I've been thinking a lot, especially over the last few months about the fact that all of the catastrophes that we've had over the last 80 years since the end of World War II really just have been kind of nerfed versions of proper problems. You know, like the Spanish flu, serious. Serious big pandemic. Proper existential shit. Or the World War II, proper serious war.... people dying. Yep, Iraq, big deal. Desert Storm, big deal. You know, Afghanistan, big deal. 9/11, not to be made light of. 2008 financial crisis, not to be made light of. But all of these versions were, uh, these incidents were dealt with in ways that were manageable and were fairly quickly rebounded from.

   18. KKKonstantin Kisin24:38

       Mm-hmm.

   19. CWChris Williamson24:38

       Um, and this really is a reminder, I think, of just how tenuous humanity's grasp on existence is. You know-

   20. KKKonstantin Kisin24:46

       Hmm.

   21. CWChris Williamson24:46

       ... like if anyone thought, like, what are some of the, the human institutions that we usually rely on? Finances, yeah, the banks will look after it, the economy will be okay. Health, ah, well, at least grandma and grandad are all right, or at least there's a future for my kid. Education, oh, well, at least like little Timmy can go off to school, all this sort of stuff. Like there's very few areas that haven't been shaken to their core.

   22. KKKonstantin Kisin25:09

       Mm-hmm.

   23. CWChris Williamson25:09

       And I, uh, uh, appreciate both sides of the fence, with people now saying, "Well, look, the, the, the lockdowns and stuff," there's mental health problems that are coming through. I'm not convinced that, um, opening, uh... Fairly ambivalent about the, about the lockdowns. It's just kind of I leave it to the epidemiologists and the virologists and public health experts. But, um, I think that the lockdowns are only a small part of this. I think the ambient anxiety is due to a lot more of what's going on. It's the fact that everyone has been wildly reminded of their own mortality and they're staring it in the face.

   24. KKKonstantin Kisin25:39

       Mm-hmm.

   25. CWChris Williamson25:39

       Look at just how little-

   26. KKKonstantin Kisin25:40

       And we don't like it.

   27. CWChris Williamson25:41

       No.

   28. KKKonstantin Kisin25:41

       We really don't like it, do we?

   29. CWChris Williamson25:43

       Well, I mean, think of anyone who's read Ernest Becker's Denial of Death, like that is about the fact that everything we do in life is to escape th- our, our awareness of death. And if there's ever been a year, like 2020 is the year that death has stared all of us in the face. Financial death, educational death, career death, uh, health. Scary, man.

   30. KKKonstantin Kisin26:03

       It is, and, uh, uh, I think as you're pointing out, I mean, I, I share your analysis by the way on the series of smaller crises we've had since World War II. The only thing I would possibly add, uh, for a broader picture is of course the Cuban missile crisis, which, uh, in which we were literally minutes away from everyone on the planet dying. Uh, but it didn't feel as visceral on an individual level. It wasn't like we were all, you know, sitting in our bunkers. Um, but apart from that, I agree with you. But I think in terms of death, the thing with, that we've, we've seen is we're so desperate to push it out of our awareness as something that we don't even, uh, recognize as existing, that we're making very bad decisions. Because, you know, like sure, we can leave the, the lockdown stuff to the epidemiologists, but, but we've interviewed doctors on the show, we've interviewed people on the show, and a lot of people now have concluded that the lockdown, while not necessarily preventing many COVID deaths, there's not any particularly strong evidence that that is the case, uh, is definitely having a huge impact on the number of deaths we're gonna see in the, in the months and years to come. Because what's happening is you're saving the lives of elderly people, uh, who, who end up living a few months longer or a year longer. Uh, and, uh, the cost of that is that you are delaying cancer diagnosis, you're delaying, uh, other treatments for other very serious conditions in younger people, uh, you're delaying dealing with mental health, you're exacerbating people's problems with many, many things. And the chances are more people will die as a result of the lockdowns than of COVID-19.
3. 30:00 – 45:00

   Like a team sheet.…

   1. KKKonstantin Kisin30:00

      institutions in society and many other institutions too. It- it's the way we talk... You know, there was a, uh, a liberal MP today or the other day who suggested that we need all-ethnic minority shortlists, right? This is the sort of product, uh...

   2. CWChris Williamson30:13

      Like a team sheet. (laughs)

   3. KKKonstantin Kisin30:16

      Yeah, exactly.

   4. CWChris Williamson30:16

      Like a roll call.

   5. KKKonstantin Kisin30:17

      Yeah, well-

   6. CWChris Williamson30:17

      "Can all of the Latinos put their hands up, please?"

   7. KKKonstantin Kisin30:20

      Right. So he's saying the way you get MPs of, of from ethnic minority backgrounds into parliament is not allow white people to stand in certain constituencies essentially, right? Because white people are, quote unquote, "privileged," therefore they don't deserve that opportunity. They've had too many opportunities already and we need to raise up people. Um, and of course, what this ignores is almost exclusively the, the, the ethnic minority people who do come in many, many cases actually, you know, they've been to a private school, went to Ox- Oxbridge, uh, you know, did PPE there, uh, at Oxford, and then became a parliamentary assistant and work... Or, or in Rishi Sunak's case, you know, very prominent family, et cetera, um, with, with links to banking or whatever his background is, right? So i- it's taking this very blunt force view of, of racial relations, uh, of, of relations between men and women, and of how we conduct our politics. Now, h- how is that... And my point was when I was talking about this is, how has that happened? How has this ideology, which is antithetical to everything Western society is built on... Western society is built on the idea that we're all individuals, right? And, and that what matters about us is not the color of our skin. I remember a guy called Martin Luther something that was talking about this, right? How we should not be judged by our skin color, but rather we should be judged by the content of our character, by who we are as individuals. How did this collective idea, (clears throat) i- identitarian idea, how did that embed itself so firmly into our political discussion? And, and the way it has is it's, it's a very powerful tool because if I say to you, "Well, look," (coughs) excuse me, "as an immigrant, I am deeply oppressed," or, "My life has been difficult," well, unless you're a psychopath, your instinct is to go, "Oh, I'm sorry to hear that." Like, "W- what's, what's been your life experience?" Right? Uh, and that's most people's instinct because most people are compassionate and caring and, and they want to, you know, to express support and sympathy for people who, who are victims of life because some people genuinely have had difficult experiences. We all have, uh, but some people more than others. Uh, and so you take that, the f- ... And you use people's empathy against them. If you say to people, "Well, look, uh, you know, Britain is the most evil, racist country in the world," a lot of people initially will go, "Well, well, okay." Especially in this country where the culture is sort of very apologetic and, and, "Well, well, I'm sorry, you know, you stepped on my foot, but I apologize to you," that sort of attitude. Um, people go, "Okay, well, you know, let's look at may- maybe, maybe, you know, did... We, we had slavery in this country and, and we, we had this and we had that and, you know, our ancestors did certain things. Let's maybe look at that. You know, if you're saying that you are discriminated against in modern society because of your skin color or your sexuality or, or, or whatever else it might be, well, m- maybe that's true, let's have a look at that." And I think there's definitely some room for that. You know, when I came to this country in the '90s, it was certainly less tolerant than it is now and I think that progress has been a result of, of that sort of attitude, of like, let's make sure that we learn the lessons from the Stephen Lawrence murder and cover-up by the police, right? Let's learn the lessons from certain things that have happened that are atrocious and tragic. Let's learn the lessons of, you know, the racism that was quite common in this country 30, 40, 50 years ago. Uh, but what it's got to now is the people who've, who, who create that sort of grievance industry, some of which was initially needed, they now want to survive and sustain their lives and so you've got these professional race baiters on TV who go on and talk about how, you know, they're even more oppressed than they've ever been and life is terrible. And what they're doing is they're using decent, ordinary people's empathy against them.

   8. CWChris Williamson34:07

      I, I really like the weaponizing empathy, um, terminology. I think it, it nicely encapsulates the weakness that is being targeted. Um, and as someone who does have excess empathy, i- it makes for a very difficult, um... It makes me confused about my own views because I get scared about saying the wrong thing, about upsetting someone.

   9. KKKonstantin Kisin34:33

      Mm-hmm.

   10. CWChris Williamson34:33

       Uh, then as you'll be aware and, uh, you know, as a little bit of a insight behin- breaking the fourth wall for how you guys and both me will be, I wonder whether you have felt the increase in ambient anxiety about saying the wrong thing as your platform grows. Like when-

   11. KKKonstantin Kisin34:49

       Mm-hmm.

   12. CWChris Williamson34:49

       ... it's a, a full-on bedroom project that no one gives a shit about, you're like, "Well, so what? Like, I've got all this other stuff that's going on," but as your baby, as a independent podcaster or broadcaster or radio host or whatever it might be, as that becomes a bigger and bigger part, part of your life financially, um, passionately, career-wise, as that grows, you're actually, "Hang on a second. I got something to lose here. I genuinely have something that I should be afraid of." With that, you get more stability because presumably you would have the support of a larger audience, you also have a greater backlog of content. Jordan Peterson has always said, um, "Y- if you want to call me a right-wing Nazi, there is hundreds of hours of me lecturing online. Please find the point at which I've done that." Um, but yeah, h- have you felt that? 'Cause I, I certainly... Little twinges in the back of my mind I'm like, "There's something to lose here now."

   13. KKKonstantin Kisin35:43

       Yeah, I think I've got a very sort of perverse personality in that way, in that, uh, I, I actually feel much freer to speak my mind now than I, than I've ever done. Uh, because first of all, I'm very clear that, uh, not everyone's gonna agree with me. You know, what... That contract that we referenced when I turned it down two years ago became a big story and that sort of... It, like, broke everything for me, like, in a moment. You know, sometimes you stretch a band and stretch a band and stretch a band and eventually, but for me it was just like, snap the fucking thing str- in, in, literally in two weeks.

   14. CWChris Williamson36:18

       Baptism by fire.

   15. KKKonstantin Kisin36:18

       And I went from-Yeah, baptism of fire. Exactly. So I went from literally no one really knows me, I don't have any public profile, I'm on a comedian on the comedy circuit, I'm doing pretty well but not, not anything spectacular. I'm m- m- moving up the ranks. I get on with most people very well. You know, I don't... Comedians sort of like me, other comedians and my colleagues, whatever. To in the space of two weeks going, "Okay, well, half of the comedy industry now hates me."

   16. CWChris Williamson36:44

       (laughs)

   17. KKKonstantin Kisin36:45

       "Half of the comedy industry now likes me." And from that moment, just the number of fucks I give has rapidly plummeted towards zero very, very quickly. Uh, and the thing is, the bigger the platform grows, uh, in terms of Triggernometry and my own following, uh, I just feel people have got our backs, man. You know? The people who watch our show, they'll back us. A- and if, if we come under attack, they will chip in and they'll help us out. And if, if we get sued for something, there'll be people to help us out. The Free Speech Union, uh, is a big factor in Darren Grimes' case, but in many others. They're helping people deal with, you know, libelous accusations, being sacked for, from work for saying something controversial, whatever. Um, so I feel like there's, there's actually, you know, on Triggernometry we probably have about 200,000 subscribers across the different platforms if you put YouTube and other stuff together. You know, there's 200,000 people, many, many of whom really believe in what we're doing. They, they agree with the principle of what we're doing, which is trying to have honest conversations with interesting people, which is what you do. Uh, and if they feel that that is being destroyed, I have every confidence that, uh, our audience, uh, will back us up. And they're, you know, we were just chatting today in the studio with, with the guys, with the team about, you know, we posted a joke. Uh, uh, I posted a joke on the, about the, the vaccine, uh, on, on my Twitter which-

   18. CWChris Williamson38:08

       About being good, good with mathematics.

   19. KKKonstantin Kisin38:10

       Yeah, about that I basically said that I'm gonna take a rushed vaccine, I'm not worried about it 'cause I've always wanted to be good with maths. Uh, w- the idea being, like, vaccines, some people say give you autism, right? And, and the first comment on, under that Facebook post on our page was, "I'm autistic and I'd just like to say I'm not in any way offended by this post."

   20. CWChris Williamson38:29

       (laughs)

   21. KKKonstantin Kisin38:31

       Right? So the audience we've built are people who really appreciate what we do and they'll back us up. Um, and I hope that's not naïve and as long as we stick to our principles I think, uh, you know, people have your back. And that's really the great power of the internet is. In the past I think canceling people was much easier because all you did is, you know, you burned them at the stake or you get them fired or whatever it might've been. Now, you know, for people like me and you being canceled may actually be quite beneficial. You know? Uh-

   22. CWChris Williamson38:58

       Clout, man. Everything, everything's c- wha- as my good friend and social media marketer buddy Johnny says, "Clicks are clicks." And that's the situation that you found yourself in with the contract.

   23. KKKonstantin Kisin39:09

       Mm-hmm.

   24. CWChris Williamson39:10

       You know? It's like-

   25. KKKonstantin Kisin39:10

       Yeah, it was.

   26. CWChris Williamson39:11

       ... I, I think everyone gets a couple of cracks at, like, the viral moment. Zuby's deadlift video, Darren Grimes is being called in by the MET Police, your contract thing, um, my only one was Love Island but we don't talk about that. Um, so, you know, we have these opportunities to, to, to kind of capitalize on it and you're totally correct that that's w- first order effect of being a weakness might second, third, fourth order effect actually be the platform, the springboard that you need to then further the, further the audience. So yeah, man, I, I hope, I hope that you're right. I, I really do think decentralizing the control, um, and, and being your... Uh, going to great lengths to make yourself uncancelable, as Sam Harris says, is strong. Build a following on a platform then build an email list that is not mediated by anyone. Try and cancel. You, like, go to, move your platform, move your audience anywhere. Once you have an email list they can go anywhere and that's bulletproof.

   27. KKKonstantin Kisin40:14

       Yeah. O- obviously there are exceptions to that and some people have been sort of censored way off but, you know, I- I'm not... Uh, as I s- I sort of joked at the beginning, I'm super controversial. Actually I have very centrist opinions on pretty much everything. Um, it's just the weird world we live in. So I, I don't ever anticipate, you know, being taken off all these platforms for saying what I say. Uh, but I'll still, you know, insist that other people shouldn't.

   28. CWChris Williamson40:39

       I love it. What is your prediction for the 2020 election?

   29. KKKonstantin Kisin40:46

       Uh, I, every day I wake up and I change my mind.

   30. CWChris Williamson40:50

       What's today then? Today is Friday the 16th of October 2020. What's your prediction?
4. 45:00 – 1:00:00

   Man. …

   1. KKKonstantin Kisin45:00

      Donald Trump is almost certainly going to be, uh, the leader because Republicans tend to vote in person, Democrats much more, uh, with the voting, uh, do the voting via post. So, what you're gonna have is a week or two when Donald Trump, quote unquote, won, but the election result is non-confirmed, and then those ballots may come in and he may then lose.

   2. CWChris Williamson45:23

      Man.

   3. KKKonstantin Kisin45:24

      That's not a healthy situation, my friend. Um, I'm glad... You know, one of my biggest criticisms of Trump is that he refused to say that he would hand over power peacefully, uh, until yesterday, which is when he finally did, which I'm glad, uh, by, 'cause I think, you know, that's completely unacceptable in a democracy for one party to say they wouldn't accept the result of an election. On the other hand, it's equally deeply unacceptable for Biden to refuse to talk about whether he's gonna pack the court or not. Because if you start messing with the Supreme Court, and the number of justices on that, to suit your political agenda, well, that's the end of the American project as well. Uh, so both of those things are completely unacceptable. I'm glad Trump has rowed back on that. I hope Biden, uh, and, uh, Kamala Harris now say they're not gonna do that as well, because, uh, that is very, very important. But it's gonna get messy.

   4. CWChris Williamson46:15

      It is. Douglas, I asked Douglas the same question. This has been a theme. I asked Gaad Saad, I asked Andrew Doyle, I've asked Douglas, I've asked yourself. Uh, and Douglas gave the most... He had to pull the fence out of his arse, uh, in order to be able to, uh, actually speak. But he said, um, whatever happens, it's not going to be very well accepted and he's got some quite big fears, which is interesting 'cause he's now in America. Like he's now over there.

   5. KKKonstantin Kisin46:38

      Mm-hmm.

   6. CWChris Williamson46:38

      So, like, fair play, mate. Like, if stuff gets set on fire, you've decided to pop yourself in amongst it. Um, yeah, I agree. I think that no matter your political leaning, trying to undermine the democratic process at large really has to be one of those things that's unacceptable. It's like, look, you can two-foot slide tackle me, I can push you while you're off the ball, but no one can come in and pick it up and run away or shoot the referee. Like these things are outside the rules of the game. In fact, they change the rules of the game.

   7. KKKonstantin Kisin47:10

      Mm-hmm.

   8. CWChris Williamson47:10

      If we're supposed to be playing chess and you rugby tackle me to the floor, like that kind of just... What, what are we, what are we doing here? There has to be some-

   9. KKKonstantin Kisin47:18

      Yeah.

   10. CWChris Williamson47:18

       ... upper bound. But again, like what have we been... This disintegrationist left, as Ben Shapiro and, and Dave Rubin refer to it, like that game of one-upsmanship, we'll do something, we'll break some rules, so we'll break some rules, so we'll break some rules. And think as well, everybody's self-branding, everyone looks in some form or another, for some reason, there is a particular minority who look to political leaders as, uh, examples, as role models of how they should (laughs) like- (laughs) ... spend their lives morally or, or just, you know... Trump says something, then you get it regurgitated. Or Biden-

   11. KKKonstantin Kisin47:54

       Mm-hmm.

   12. CWChris Williamson47:54

       ... says something, then Kamala Harris says something, then you get it regur- regurgitated. Like, if they are saying, "Well, we can break all of the rules," and they're supposed to be these paragons of diplomatic virtue, right? They're supposed to be the ones who are the least, uh, um, at the mercy of trends, as, you know-

   13. KKKonstantin Kisin48:11

       Mm-hmm.

   14. CWChris Williamson48:11

       ... the fucking lighthouse in the storm type bullshit. That's what your politicians are supposed to be. Um, if they're prepared to keep on changing all of the rules, what precedent does that set for everybody else? And it really, it really can quite quickly become a vicious cycle. So yeah, I think, um, the next...... when is the ele- is it the 22nd of November? When is it?

   15. KKKonstantin Kisin48:30

       The 3rd of November.

   16. CWChris Williamson48:31

       Oh, shit. It's-

   17. KKKonstantin Kisin48:33

       Very soon.

   18. CWChris Williamson48:33

       It's soon, man. Wow. So, I mean the next three weeks are gonna be, they're gonna be compelling.

   19. KKKonstantin Kisin48:41

       Well, let me a- yeah, compelling, if you like horror movies. Um-

   20. CWChris Williamson48:45

       (laughs)

   21. KKKonstantin Kisin48:46

       ... there, there, there is another aspect to this and I think y- you speak to that very well which is that, uh, if you allow politicians to, to conduct themselves in this way and to delegitimize a democratic process which both, uh, sides have done, uh, but particularly in my opinion the, the democrats, uh, in America and the left in this country as well, uh, then what you end up with is a situation where we are now where 36% of both democrats and republicans feel, uh, that violence is justified to achieve your political ends. So a third of both supporter groups are quite happy to use violence, right? Which has gone up from 8% about two years ago. So if you've got that situation, the election is in dispute, both parties are undermining the, the ar- the democratic process and encouraging their followers, uh, essentially to feel like violence is a way of resolving this issue, not a good recipe. Not a good recipe.

   22. CWChris Williamson49:44

       No. Not at all. And I think, you know, t- to see we, we, we often see these tip of the spear moments that, um, they're like the maxim pithy aphorism quotes that everyone remembers that tells them about what a wider concept means and some of the things that we've seen, like Trump not being presidential during the debate. Like, uh, perhaps four years ago it was cool and quirky and new and made people feel like he was gonna drain the swamp and do this cool thing and, oh, isn't it interesting to see someone who's not diplomatic and doesn't play by the rules? Whereas now, you're like, "Yeah, okay mate. Like this is, this is kind of old hat now. I'm not so fussed about... I just want to hear the debate. Let's get back to-"

   23. KKKonstantin Kisin50:25

       Mm-hmm.

   24. CWChris Williamson50:25

       ... that rule and that, you know, we vacillate between two different extremes and finally find something somewhere in the middle. But then you've got it on the left as well with the way it's much more of a, uh, how would you say? It's the, the sneaky fucker game that's being played on the left.

   25. KKKonstantin Kisin50:41

       Mm-hmm.

   26. CWChris Williamson50:41

       It's the brash hit it with a mallet game that's being played by Trump. Um, but yeah, man, I, I'm gonna be, like you say, compelled for the horror movie over the, uh, over the next couple of months. Couple of questions left. Um, why are comedians getting involved in political dialogue? Like people might not have expected individuals like you and Andrew Doyle would have been the vanguard of free speech.

   27. KKKonstantin Kisin51:05

       Mm-hmm. Well, for comedians, it's something that we feel viscerally because every time you go on stage, you are already self-censoring, uh, because you're trying to find s- th- that point between what you are saying and what the audience wants to hear and you're trying to find that line, right? So we're constantly playing with it. And of course we say things that we don't mean, right? So this literalism, the idea that we should take jokes literally, uh, and if you, if I made a joke about autistic people that means I hate autistic people, right? That is a problem for us on a sort of practical level, if you like. Uh, I also think comedy attracts people who are rebels by nature, uh, and so w- we're naturally drawn to, or at least that's what I thought until I went into the comedy industry and found it to be the most conformist, uh, mono- monoculture I've ever seen. Uh, but I did think, you know, watching, uh, you know, people like Bill Hicks and George Carlin and, and people like that, that, you know, comedy's for, for people who like have a different opinion, man, and that they, you know, they wanna say something that some people don't want to hear, right? Like that's what I thought. But now apparently that's not what comedy is about. Comedy's about making sure that you, you make fun of the right people, uh, and, uh, you know, m- make, wha- whatever this woke shit is. I can't even be bothered to talk about it anymore. Um, so I think comedians are naturally sort of rebellious by nature, or at least some of us are. Uh, so it, it's a sort of professional hazard to us, uh, the restriction of free speech and there's also the other thing of like we don't like restrictions. We are pro-freedom, uh, and restricting people's speech restricts how they think. And Jordan Peterson hammered this point home a lot, which is without being able to speak freely you can't think freely. Um, and if you can't think freely, well, we're all fucked. So, uh, I think th- that's, that's kind of where it's coming from.

   28. CWChris Williamson52:57

       Are comedians the saviors that we need at the moment, do you reckon? More comedians?

   29. KKKonstantin Kisin53:01

       Uh, I don't know. I, I, I think, I think it takes everybody. Look, I mean, I think, look at, look at the Free Speech Union, which I've mentioned. They're doing great work. Shows like th- yours and, and ours, uh, you know, we're not strictly comedians in, in this context but we're doing what I think is good work. Uh, j- there are some journalists who are starting to push back against all of this stuff. Uh, I, I think everybody's got a hand in this. I, I think the main thing is, uh, that people need to, to think about do you want to live in, in a society that judges everybody by their skin color, their race, their sexuality, their gender, et cetera? Or do you want to live in a society that we all remember that we're individuals and we come together based on what we think, how we feel about things, what are, what are our views. And if we want to sort of divide oursel- ourselves up which we always will do because we're tribal by nature, then the healthy way to do that is, is to sort of do it on a voluntary basis of, "Well, uh, I think this and you think that and we both believe in free speech, so let's form a free speech society." Or whatever else it might be. As opposed to going, "Well, we're both men. Men need to stick together."

   30. CWChris Williamson54:08

       (laughs)
5. 1:00:00 – 1:04:12

   Mm-hmm. …

   1. CWChris Williamson1:00:00

      PPE produced more quickly, we've got the 3D printing, we've got the, the ventilators, we've got all that stuff, right? So we are prepared because we were delivered a, a kind of a weak dose of something that may be worse in the future.

   2. KKKonstantin Kisin1:00:11

      Mm-hmm.

   3. CWChris Williamson1:00:11

      My hope is that the identity politics game, which has been promulgated over the last few years, that has attached itself to the wrong horse. The Trojan horse that it's tried to deliver a particular ideology in is inherently so self-contradictory and just a losing race that everyone can see the hypocrisy in it, the ridiculousness of it. And it's so self-defeating because it fractures its own group into competing different levels of hierarchy to the point at which it, the snake just eats its own tail.

   4. KKKonstantin Kisin1:00:43

      Mm-hmm.

   5. CWChris Williamson1:00:44

      And in future, if some other ideologues decide to come along and get themselves behind a particular cause that we go, "Hang on a second. Now I remember that you played this game once before. Like, we've been here." Now this one might seem a little bit more seductive or more polished and a bit more virtuous, truthful, whatever, but no. No, no, no, no, we, we, we had this. So I'm wondering whether or not this ridiculous example of trying to push a particular ideology has been attached to the wrong, the wrong racehorse and is potentially going to inoculate us against it happening in future?

   6. KKKonstantin Kisin1:01:21

      It's a very optimistic view, (clears throat) one that I shared in March. Uh, I thought that in March we had about, uh, a month, uh, in, up until about Dominic Cummings and then immediately after George Floyd. There was that moment we had an opportunity, you know. We all, quote unquote, "came together," clapped-

   7. CWChris Williamson1:01:40

      Shared humanity.

   8. KKKonstantin Kisin1:01:41

      Shared humanity, clapped for the NHS, et cetera, et cetera. And even then some people tried to go on about how, you know, uh, BAME people are more likely to die from COVID and somehow that's society's fault when in fact it's just vitamin D is harder to obtain for people with darker skin. Um, but, but, but it was sort of ignored mostly and we sort of pulled together. Uh, but I think the lockdown, the impact of people spending more time on social media worrying about the future, being stuck indoors, many people in... You know, if you, if you are living in a happy family and, and you work from home and, and you, you know, uh, you've got a garden and, and, and a nice house, um, (clears throat) then your mental health's probably fine, uh, if your job is safe and all the rest of it. But for a lot of people it wasn't like that. I, I know people, young people who, for example, you know, they were stuck with, uh, somebody else in the house, a stepparent who was abusive, you know. Uh, or, or just people stuck i- in the wrong environment with flatmates that they'd meaning, they'd been meaning to leave that flat and that they were in dispute or people stuck in, in loveless marriages or whatever. That mental health impact I think is what then exploded, uh, with BLM, uh, that pent-up frustration, anger, confusion. Uh, that's why we had protests about George Floyd in the UK which, if you think about it, doesn't really make much sense.

   9. CWChris Williamson1:03:05

      Um, I agree. Konstantin, thank you so much for today. People who wanna check out Triggernometry or yourself, where should they go? Where do they, where do they direct themselves?

   10. KKKonstantin Kisin1:03:14

       I am on Twitter at Konstantin Kisin and the show is at TriggerPod. We're on YouTube, all the podcast apps. Just search for Triggernometry, as in gun trigger, T-R-I double G E-R.

   11. CWChris Williamson1:03:26

       Amazing, man. If I get a call off the Met police, we can share an Uber there together. Uh, hopefully we haven't crossed any boundaries. I- I- I've really, really enjoyed today. I think that you guys are doing fantastic work. Um, I'm proud to be of the, the particular little sort of weird, fucked-up community that we've got of British podcasters, um, doing good work at the moment. So long may it continue.

   12. KKKonstantin Kisin1:03:49

       Thanks. I appreciate it and, and right back at you. And also if we do have to share an Uber, that would be illegal because we need to socially distance.

   13. CWChris Williamson1:03:57

       (laughs) Thank you, man. (singing) Dolphins. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Dolphins.

Episode duration: 1:04:13