Become Unstoppable: The Man Behind The World's Top Performers - Dr Steve Peters

1. 0:00 – 6:22

   The Basics of the Chimp Paradox

   1. CWChris Williamson0:00

      Your first conception, most famous conception that you had originally, uh, publicly at least, uh, was the chimp paradox. If, if people aren't familiar with the chimp model, how do you introduce them to that?

   2. SPDr Steve Peters0:13

      I'll try and keep this succinct, but I'm going back 30 years now. So, uh, yeah, (laughs) I'm getting old, very old. Uh, and I, as a young doctor, um, I suddenly started realizing I was talking to two individuals in therapies where... And, a- and again, I'm making this very black and white. Uh, one of the p- individuals I talked to was very rational and common sense and would engage me. The other was highly emotional and usually very irrational and distorted in the way they're perceiving things, themselves, the world, other people. Uh, but I could get the one that was irrational to become rational by talking and going through things. So that intrigued me that I had two people in the room. And some people, they were close, some people they were miles apart. So then turning to neuroscience and looking at the brain, uh, there are circuitries in the brain that are just automatic, they're outside of our control. Uh, and as a psychiatrist, obviously as a doctor, I'm learning also the therapeutic, um, background we have as a basis. So going right back to Freud, and you think, "Yeah, he was a genius of his time and he recognized the drives and the instincts." But what can we see now at the 1990s was the functional MRI scanners came in. And now we see actually, these parts of the brain, they're not just drives and instincts, there's a entire system that thinks and interprets and makes these interpretations without permission, and makes decisions without permission, often based on the drives and instincts. So we have this amazing machine that's trying to run our lives at the same time as we're trying to impose our values and the way we want to run it. So I was intrigued with this. So you mentioned weight at the beginning, and I often use that as the best example. How many people get up in the morning saying, "Today I'm gonna eat healthy, the right amount," and, and at the end of the day they say, again, "It hasn't happened." You know, and they were, they were saying, "Why is it that, uh, this is happening?" Because it's crazy. And then they attribute it to willpower. Well, the neuroscience teaches something different. It shows that there's an entire system based on survival, which thinks and decides, and it's also impulsive and it looks for instant gratification. So when you're offered something you like, say a donut or peanuts and you think, "I've eaten enough," this system says, "No, no, we've got a little bit more," because it doesn't see what's coming. So I was intrigued. So I spoke to hominid specialists, the great apes. Uh, I'm, I'm very much an animal lover. So as part of the great apes, the humans are one of the five, um, what they said to me, simplifying it, was the or- uh, looking at the gorilla, the orangutan, uh, and the bonobo, they think their brains operate differently to us. Uh, but the chimpanzee doesn't. It's the same. It's the same thinking, interpreting, emotionally based system. So I started looking and I started recognizing watching chimpanzee behave in human, there was such similarities. However, when we turn to rationality and logic, we change that behavior and we become very different. So what I discovered or sort of light bulb for me, I'm sure (laughs) others have discovered it, what I, what I really, for me, discovered was, you've got this inner chimp system that we've inherited alongside you as a human, and we've all got it. And depending how strong it is or how we learn to manage it is how often it will present. And that became more and more prominent in, when I was working with individuals to say, "You didn't think that. That is the chimp system." Now, that got published, uh, in 2018 to show the chimpanzee and the human had the same kind of thinking systems which separates us from the rest of the apes. Um, but by then I didn't wanna wait that long because I think it's, it was blatantly obvious. I know we have to give evidence. So I started using it on my medical students, um, at Sheffield Medical School, and at that point as undergraduate dean, I was working a lot with youngsters between 18 and 23. So I started explaining, "You do have this chimp system," and they loved it. Uh, they really got this. They said, "I can recognize when I'm in chimp mode (laughs) and when I'm in human mode." Uh, and they started to then teach us this, so it became part of what I did with them, and we'd talk about, "What are the drives that are strong in your chimp?" Because the chimp brain is unique to the person again. So it became an entertaining way of starting to understand what you're sharing your brain with, this incredible system which thinks and acts for you with a major backup system. So when I started doing the simplified neuroscience, the students were not keen on the neuroscience 'cause it was too complex. They kept saying, "Make it so it's practical," which I wanted to do, so they all started t- giving their chimps a name. Uh, and this went on for a good 10 years before I effectively got catapulted into the limelight with sport, uh, which was a, a sidetrack. Um, and then it became public and it just went a bit viral and, you know, I started meeting people saying, they k- ask me, "Are you the chimp man?" (laughs) I'm, I'm proud to say I'm the chimp man. Uh, but I think the key for me was, I saw a transformation of people who started recognizing the difference between themself and a machine, so that's why I called it the chimp paradox. And I wrote The Chimp Paradox, uh, probably over about four years, trying to refine it. I didn't wanna get it wrong, so I put out when I thought, "As close as I can get it," to explain, "This is your brain and how it works." There were, uh, I kept being pestered to go into more detail, and that's why it took me 10 years (laughs) to, to actually think, "Okay, do it again." So I rewrote effectively and called it A Path Through the Jungle. So A Path Through the Jungle is more with, it's got the evidence base, the research behind it, um, I know in America, The Chimp Paradox didn't take off and I know I was criticized because there was no evidence. So I thought, "They're, they're right to say that," so I've now given 400 references-And I'm pleased to say it was assessed by Cambridge Neuroscience Department, and they said it's spot on. So there is a write-up on Cambridge University's website for those who are academically interested to see that, they were saying that it, yeah, this is an amazing model, and it's very detailed, uh, to link it to neuroscience.

2. 6:22 – 9:48

   Why Instinctive Reactions Are Evolutionary

   1. SPDr Steve Peters6:22

   2. CWChris Williamson6:22

      Why would it have been useful in our past to have this very reactive, uh, s- setup inside of our minds?

   3. SPDr Steve Peters6:35

      It's still useful now. Um, when we look at... I'll talk in terms of the model. The, when you're using the human circuits, the transmitter systems and the speed at which they conduct are relatively slow. So when we think rationally, we think steadily. Whereas if something dramatic happened, where our life is at risk, we need to think quickly and act impulsively, almost instinctually. So the chimp system can do that for us. So in a serious emergency, it will know what to do. So it generally uses fight, flight, freeze because that's what the amygdala hands to it as part of that system that's running. Um, so if you were, say, with someone who suddenly drew a knife, instinctively you'd know what to do. You know, whereas if you had to think rationally, those split seconds could cost you dear. So, but you can imagine this in many circumstances where there's an apparent danger, we act very instinctively and our machine takes over, and it's pretty accurate. So it's not that it's a bad system at all. And people gave this my inner chimp bit, and I think one of the elite athletes I worked with once said, "How do I kill my chimp?"

   4. CWChris Williamson7:50

      (laughs)

   5. SPDr Steve Peters7:51

      And I'm thinking, "You've really not got this because my chimp system is my best friend." Because as long as I understand what he's trying to tell me, what are the ways communicating, then I can use that and work as a team. And the, there's evidence, strong research evidence on this, that when we use a logical basis to our thinking and an emotional, instinctive, intuitive basis, it works best. On their own, they don't work as well. So I keep saying, "The chimp's the best friend you've got," hence the paradox. Uh, you know, but you can make it your worst enemy if you're gonna start saying, you know, "I hate myself. I hate the fact I eat too much. I hate the fact that I lose my temper." Uh, that's not really very helpful at all. The approach is wrong. You need to, uh, from my opinion, you need to be saying, "If I'm getting annoyed, what is this part of my brain trying to tell me? You know, why is, why is this evoking this emotion in me and what can I do to stop this?" And that's what I started doing with patients back in the 1990s. I started applying it in my clinical practice. Uh, and I'm pleased to say I got some amazing results. And I don't attribute that to me. I don't. I think the person is the one who gets the results. They get insight and they, they worked with me. All I can do is help them and catalyze what their understanding is. But the people who grasped and understood themself and the way the machine was working and got the chimp, and what I call the computer onboard, they started saying, "It's life changing. It's really changed me." Because what they're doing is saying, "I'm now in charge of the machine." And then making it run and using it when it kicks a bit to say, "What is it you're doing?" And they say, "This is great." And that's what I tried to do. I said, "It's a different approach. I know it's a bit, a bit out of the box, uh, but I wanted it based on neuroscience because that's my academic background as a, as a professor in, in psychiatry. I'm neuroscience-based."

3. 9:48 – 13:50

   Can Anyone Develop their Emotional Skills?

   1. SPDr Steve Peters9:48

   2. CWChris Williamson9:48

      It seems to me that there's broadly two buckets of people that you've worked with. You- you've sort of worked with the human mind at its best and the human mind at its worst as well. What is different? Are- are there many fundamentals that are the same for trying to get Chris Hoy to be in flow state, uh, during the Olympics as there are trying to deal with somebody who is highly dysfunctional, uh, and who doesn't really like the inside of the texture of their own mind? Do you have different approaches when it comes to that? Or is it broadly the same physics?

   3. SPDr Steve Peters10:22

      No, it, it's what I said at the beginning, which why I know people can get frustrated with me because I do a lot of these, like, magazines or the telly might say, "Give us five tips for our viewers," or... And I can't do that, so I often warn people, "Don't ask me because I- I can't do that," because it does boil down to uniqueness. So I can only talk about people I've worked with who've gone public and said, "Please, you know, use me if you want to." So we're gonna use, I'll use Chris Hoy. I mean, he's... I've known Chris 20 years now, and it was an absolute pleasure and privilege to work with him. He's a real gentleman. So when I met him, he was in a great place. He's never had, uh, any emotional, you know, disturbances in life of any catastrophic kind. So he's a very even balanced, very rational man. But what Chris said is, "I believe," uh, he's insightful, "that if I work with you, you can explain how my mind works and I'll be able to get focused on the track for the event I want to do." So what I did is worked with him and said, "Tell me what your thinking is now. What is it you're trying to do with this event? What would help? What wouldn't?" And we worked a pattern out, how we, we plan a mental program for his event. So clearly that's, it's purely on what Chris did with me. But what we found is, his chimp is a gentleman too. So the chimp in Chris is so close to Chris that you don't get these outbursts. You just don't get them. But Chris would always tell me, "I know the difference." So even when he said, "When I go emotionally based, there's a risk." So we did a lot of good fun work, uh, incredibly good, I call them students and my mentor. Um, great. So he's one extreme of a balanced individual who said, "How do I optimize or get better at what I do?" Whereas probably the most, um, popular person I've worked with is Ronnie O'Sullivan, who came to me very dysfunctional and has a, a really large chimp. And Ronnie says, "Tell the world everything." I'm not gonna do that. (laughs) Uh, all I can say is he's a fantastic guy that I really like and get on with. We've worked together now over 10 years....uh, and this chimp's very active. Ronnie himself is subjected to this, so he's trying to learn how to manage it, so Y- Ronnie, as a human being, is very, very different to his chimp. So, I can see even in interviews when Ronnie's answering or when his chimp's answering. Um, and so with him it's more, uh, perfecting the skill, but I can say that I've worked with him 10 years, and it's a privilege and he's great fun, um, that over those 10 years as he approaches the World Championships in Snooker, which he's won multiple times, um, each year he's improved. And, and that's a really key point for working with people, that all of us can get the skill. Some of us are gonna pick it up very quickly. So, I've worked with people who've transformed themselves within weeks, months. They have light bulb moments, but they put a lot of time and effort in. Whereas other people, it's really tough to get the skill, you know? It's no different to, say, learning to sing. We can all sing, but (laughs) some are brilliant to start with and get even better and some of us struggle, uh, but we can still improve a bit. And emotional skills, to me, are exactly the same. You have a starting point. I don't know what potential people have until I work with them. So, I get someone who can start at square one in a really bad place, uh, and end up fantastic, in a great place. I actually saw someone this morning who I've worked with on and off for over 10 years, uh, and she's in an amazing place now, but didn't start there, but really worked on it and increased the skill to... It's great to see that.

4. 13:50 – 16:50

   How to Start Understanding Our Emotions

   1. SPDr Steve Peters13:50

   2. CWChris Williamson13:50

      How should we best understand our emotions?

   3. SPDr Steve Peters13:57

      Okay. Because, uh, I know what you're asking is, uh, is great, uh, however, I can just see you'll get frustrated with me. However, it's like saying, "Teach me Italian if I can't speak it, and teach me in the next 10 minutes." You think, "Where do we start?" Your very basic stuff. So, I think the answer for me, this is only me, to best understand is start going steadily. It, it's not a promotion, but it's why I wrote A Path Through the Jungle, because I think it takes you through 27 units. So it says start and build up so you learn things gradually and you, you practice them. So I give exercises. So again, one of the early starting points is understanding the difference between you and your, your brain working. If you can see the difference and you recognize, "I know who I am now," that in itself can lift self-esteem phenomenally, because you stop muddling yourself up with a machine that's overpowering you. So, that concept is not as easy as it sounds to grasp. You can get it logically, but when you, the day you actually get it conceptually, you can't go back. You suddenly realize, "I've been hijacked or I'm being swayed by a machine, not me, and I'm very different to that machine." So, that's the starting point. Then you go on... I would then go onto emotions and say, "Can we start seeing them differently? Can we see them as messages that are coming from the chimp or computer system to give you an alert or a question?" You know? So anger, for example, not every time, but anger can be that you've not processed something from the past. You need to go back and process it. It's still underpinning the way you're approaching the world or people. However, it may be nothing to do with the past. It could be current belief systems that, "I can't deal with life if it doesn't go the way I think it is," and that can create anger. The next one can be unrealistic expectations of other people or yourself, and that can create anger. Uh, it can even be a feeling of rejection, so you're going into relationships or meeting anybody every day with a defense position, and that will lead to a potential anger which is more of a defense mechanism. So you can see, anger's just an emotion. For me, the e- the emotion's not too important. The fact you're getting a message is what's important. So, anger, despondency, frustration, um, that's what your chimp brain is choosing to use. And some of them use the same emotion to alert you, and it's not an appropriate emotion. So, I would start saying let's look at emotions differently and let's understand the differences between them. Um, and that's why I spend two units, I believe, (laughs) uh, in A Path Through the Jungle to try and say, "Look, really at the very early stages, let's understand what's happening here before we go on to start perfecting things like values and communication. Let's understand what our emotions

5. 16:50 – 23:21

   The Link Between Emotional Control & Self-Esteem

   1. SPDr Steve Peters16:50

      are."

   2. CWChris Williamson16:50

      You mentioned about how self-esteem can become degraded if people are unable to, um, work through this, uh, conflict, uh, that's, that's going on inside-

   3. SPDr Steve Peters17:04

      Yeah.

   4. CWChris Williamson17:04

      ... of them. Why is that... Or how do you, how do you conceptualize just self-esteem as a topic and, and do you see this, uh, this tension as one of the most common or one of the common reasons why people's self-esteem can become a little bit eroded?

   5. SPDr Steve Peters17:22

      I think for me, the, the main reason people have low self-esteem... I- I'll give the example you gave of eating, uh, we could use it for anger, could use it anything, is if the person says, "I'm gonna set off today and I know my values, all right? I'm going to treat people with respect, I'm gonna remain calm and collected 'cause that's who I am," then they're defining themself and they're saying, "That's me setting off." If they now go out and overeat, what they're now saying is not, "I'm a greedy person," or, "I'm a weak-willed person." That's now so derogatory and, and causing self-esteem to drop, and that's not scientifically accurate. That's not accurate. What is accurate is to say, "I've set off with the intention of doing the following, and now this system has now impulsively started eating." Now, before we get people who are listening saying, "Oh, it's a good excuse," it's not an excuse for it. You're still 100% responsible. You can't just go, "Th- I'm a chimp, ate too much." I, I don't accept that, all right?... I say, "Oh, no, no, no. You have to manage the chimp." So you can't get angry with someone and blame the chimp. It's not a bl- a excuse blame. As, what I say is, "Your job is to say apologize," and then say, "Okay, this is the difference in esteem. I know who I am. What I can't do is manage the machine well, and that, and all of us struggle with that. What I need to do is learn to manage the machine, upskill on it, and that could take me some time." That means you know who you are still, and you're not muddling yourself up with a machine and starting to come up with silly interpretations such as, "I'm an angry person." There isn't an angry person unless you really believe, "That's who I want to be," which is nonsensical. So I do rebuke people (laughs) who are harsh when I'm working with them if they come in and say, "Oh, I got really angry this week," and I say, "No, you didn't. Unless you're telling me that's what you wanna be." And then they say, "Oh no, no, I don't wanna be angry." Then I say, "In other words, you got hijacked. So let's look at why you got hijacked and let's give you the skill to manage the hijack and calm the chimp down." So it is subtle, but it's... I don't know if you can grasp what I'm saying. I'd have made it clear. Yeah, okay.

   6. CWChris Williamson19:29

      Absolutely. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's... What's, what's interesting is this. Might be the wrong word. Almost like a depersonalization of you, who you are at your core, and things that you do. The things that you do-

   7. SPDr Steve Peters19:43

      Okay. The... Yeah. The word is dissociation. Uh, uh, you're dissociating. You're saying to yourself, "This is me, and now I've got this chimp machine (laughs) , uh, along with a computer, the, this machine in my head. So I'm now gonna go forward, but if something happens and it provokes that and it overtakes me, I now present to the world my chimp, or I present a mixture of me and the chimp." And the ideal for me is to always present yourself to the world, but get your chimp and computer as well, because they're not bad things. You know, our chimps bring color to our life. So if we have a chimp that's got a sense of humor, which they do have, 'cause our sense of humor is in the chimp system, not in the human. All right? So the chimp will bring us mirth and humor. That's why the chimp believes something we say, that's why punchlines work, and then it realizes that's ridiculous and it causes us to laugh. So there are actually three different circuits in the brain, all based in the chimp system. So if we didn't have that, we probably would be pretty boring.

   8. CWChris Williamson20:40

      Yes.

   9. SPDr Steve Peters20:41

      You know, because we wouldn't la- we wouldn't laugh. So you're saying, "Let's get on board," but you're the person who says, "These are my values, these are my beliefs, uh, this is how I wanna behave in life." And that, you set that. So I work a lot on that with people and say, "Now we know who you are, don't worry if you get hijacked and you present something different to the world. Just recognize we've got work to do, and we're gonna learn that skill." And it- it- it will happen. You'll always get chimp hijacks. Tell me if I ramble too much, 'cause I get asked a lot about, "Do you have a chimp?" And I... My chimp wrote the books (laughs) . You know, it decided to collude with me 'cause I think it was tired of telling me. Uh, but as a young man, yeah, I experienced a lot of anxiety, a lot of frustration, a lot... And I- I couldn't work this out, but as a psych I'm thinking, "Well, you just need to work it out. (laughs) You're the, you're the person who's gonna be helping people. You can't... That is hypocritical to say, 'I can't help myself.'" Uh, but then I realized that, yeah, like everyone else, I have a chimp. Most of the time I know how to manage it, and it's onboard and he's my best friend. Uh, so for me, one of the things I do is be sarcastic with it. I don't know why my chimp finds that funny. So if something upsets my chimp system and I experience frustration or whatever, I do say to the chimp, "Can we just answer the question? Do you want me to be upset for an hour, a week, the rest of our lives?" And for some reason, my chimp gives way immediately. It laughs and thinks, "Okay, it's- it's g- get a life. Get perspective." Uh, and we're okay. But I've worked that out, that that works for me 99% of the time. There will be a time when my chimp hijacks me and then I'm, have to say, "Okay, I got hijacked," 'cause I'm no different to anybody else.

   10. CWChris Williamson22:23

       Mm-hmm.

   11. SPDr Steve Peters22:24

       So, but I need to learn again, which everyone does, what are my trigger points? So trigger points for me when I know I'm vulnerable to losing this management of the chimp would be bullying, seeing someone intimidated. My chimp comes straight in. And so I have to be careful in situations where I say, "Okay, I've got it. Let me do the dealing.

   12. CWChris Williamson22:45

       It's a-

   13. SPDr Steve Peters22:45

       You don't speak."

   14. CWChris Williamson22:46

       ... it seems like a real art form to be able to integrate this, the, the, the chimp with the human mediated, you know, i- i- in the middle. And that chimp-human computer relationship seems like a very delicate dance. Because as you say, if it was just, um, raw rationality and pure cerebral horsepower and cognition all day, it- it would probably remove an awful lot of the color and a lot of the joy as well from the things that we do. And it is, I think, a lot about, about finding that balance. I've heard

6. 23:21 – 26:12

   What is a Ghost Emotion?

   1. CWChris Williamson23:21

      you talk about ghost emotions. What are those?

   2. SPDr Steve Peters23:24

      Yeah. Yeah, sometimes we learn, learn a behavior, uh, and it doesn't belong in real time. So a g- a simple example is we can get a bad experience of, say, public speaking. Now, that would evoke most people's chimps to start (laughs) getting anxious. So the computer will always come to the rescue if you look at what beliefs and memories you've got. So we can tamper with a computer. We can't do much with a chimp. It, it's, it's the nature of the animal. We have to manage it. The computer, we can tamper with. But let's say I have a bad experience doing public speaking. It's very likely I've learned to become anxious. So when I stop myself, say, "Why are you doing this?" It's a learned behavior. It's a ghost emotion. It doesn't belong there, and it's not actually what I want to experience, or indeed should be experiencing. So ghost emotions are something that hang on inappropriately. They can be because we haven't processed, but it can just be a behavior where you think, "Let's change that behavior." So I find a lot of people carry emotions, and it's just something they've learned to do.... so you can desensitize them to situations and, and ignore the ghost. There's a difference. The reason I brought that in i- is, uh, and again this is the devil in the details, some emotions are scars, they're not ghosts, and it's very important to get the difference between them. So, when I work with people, if you've got a scar, say you went through a really bad breakup, um, most people don't come out unscarred. Um, so you've got some scarring from the relationship breaking up, whatever it is, um, and y- you can't process it. So I keep saying to people, "Sometimes, always try and process it." And you can do it maybe at a later stage. But if it won't process, it's a scar, and there's a different way of dealing with that. So we have to have, we, we deal with that not by ignoring it, by actually managing it. So it can be to talk it through again, because that helps us. Even though we know it won't resolve it, it will actually take pressure off. So some scars, obviously the world I'm in, we mentioned sport, but I work a lot with Joe Public, uh, and generally speaking, the people I meet are not in a good place. Uh, so I do work with a small number of parents who've lost their children, and that must be excruciating, uh, and it is for them. And my approach, I know other people might have a different approach, um, is to say to them, "It is an emotional scar. It's not something you're gonna get rid of. It's not something you'll ever even come to terms with. I think it's something you've gotta manage, you know, and, and accept that there will be some terrible days ahead. But there'll be some good days."

   3. CWChris Williamson25:51

      Mm-hmm.

   4. SPDr Steve Peters25:51

      But it's, that's a scar for me, so I don't try and remove it, because I don't think you can.

   5. CWChris Williamson25:57

      Yeah. It's very, um, it's- it's- uh, the more detail that you apply to looking at the inside of your own mind, the more that you realize there are very subtle nuances between different things, whether that be the ghosts or the scars. What do you mean when you talk about stabilizers

7. 26:12 – 30:50

   How to Stabilise Your Mind in the Heat of the Moment

   1. CWChris Williamson26:12

      of the mind?

   2. SPDr Steve Peters26:16

      Yeah. Yeah, sometimes, uh, the mind can become emotionally up and down. So I'll try and give a, a simple example to bring the point home. Let's say that, let's say I- I- I do a lot of public speaking, and let's say that I go to an audience and I'm trying to get across everything I do. And it doesn't come over, and I think, "I'm not getting there today. I'm fumbling with everything I do." Um, I might leave that hall and my chimp's unstable, because it's saying, you know, "You didn't do a great job there." And maybe I- I made a joke that was near the knuckle and it was meant in sarcasm to make them laugh and it didn't come over. And I think, "Oh, gee, I probably offended someone." So my chimp will beat- beat me up for this, or try. Uh, so I stabilize my mind by saying to the chimp, "Hang on, you did your best. You lived by your values. It's not that you didn't try, you know? You did everything you could and you got it wrong. Or you didn't, you weren't on form today, which no one can be every day, so get a life." And then I will bring perspective. A week from now, nobody's even bothered. The only person that'll remember it is you, you know? So, perspective is a stabilizer of the mind. Uh, and so for a lot of people, for me, it's a massive one. So again, you hear people commonly saying, "How will this matter in an hour, in a week, in a year?" And for a lot of situations, it really, most situations, doesn't matter. So that's an example of one stabilizer of the mind.

   3. CWChris Williamson27:39

      I love broadening time horizons like that, and it's something that I found myself really poor at doing, uh, in my past. That the decision that I was making right now was going to be the decision that I would have to live with for the rest of my life. That this purchase of a car, or this move to a new city, or this change of a house, or this make up or break up of a relationship, or whatever it would be. It's like, uh, when you realize that most things are time-bound and most things are subject to change in future, it helps to release a little bit of the pressure. And the same thing can occur for, uh, public speaking or a bad podcast. I do a bad podcast, I'm like, "Well, I've got two more to do this week." And in a year's time, there's gonna be 150 more released.

   4. SPDr Steve Peters28:23

      Yeah.

   5. CWChris Williamson28:23

      That you can't have a good podcast every single time that you do it. And it- it helps to release, uh, and relinquish some of that, uh, obsession, I think, that we have and- and the pressure that we apply to ourselves.

   6. SPDr Steve Peters28:35

      And I think you're demonstrating when I start working with people to say, "Let's look at what we mean by this chimp system. What does it work with? What can't it do?" One of the things it can't do, when our blood supply goes into the chimp system, which is the orbitofrontal cortex, just above your eyes, when that lights up, it cannot gain perspective. It struggles with perspective. So, and it can't bring reality to a situation, because it's very emotionally based, the way we see things. So if you have your bad podcast, it struggles with this. It starts catastrophizing. Um, and you, it wants to go over and over and over. It doesn't actually want a solution, it just wants to get rid of the problem. And there's a subtle difference. Whereas if we can train your brain to move to human mode, this is what I'm doing by my computer coming to the rescue, saying, "As a human being, I've got rationality." And saying, you know, "And I've got values." So you bring in, which the human system does, which is the top of your head, uh, we see that light up, you now bring perspective in. So, but the complexity of the brain is that the human can't take the chimp on. If there's a fight between these two, the chimp will always win.

   7. CWChris Williamson29:43

      (laughs)

   8. SPDr Steve Peters29:44

      Because it has transmitters that can actually annihilate the human from functioning. So we get hijacked, literal emotional hijacks where people act out, uh, and they can't do it. Um, and people say, "Well, that means I'm doomed, uh, because my chimp's always gonna win." But this is the subtlety, which I've explained in the books, that, uh, the way the chimp works, it knocks the human out, but it must, of necessity this is, turn to the computer and scan, which we see it literally scanning the computer and getting advice, uh, beliefs, experiences, intuition. It gets masses of information within a split second, which then advises the chimp, which it has to follow what to do. So if we program our computers well-... that's the secret of managing the mind. So we program them so that when the chimp knocks us out, our computer takes over and manages the chimp. So there is a way around this, it's not doom and gloom, but if you don't program the computer and keep it running, uh, then the chimp will definitely take control.

   9. CWChris Williamson30:48

      A couple of words that you've been using a lot

8. 30:50 – 36:35

   Defining Our Values, Beliefs & Drives

   1. CWChris Williamson30:50

      throughout this conversation that I wanna dig into, uh, values, beliefs, drives. What-

   2. SPDr Steve Peters30:56

      Yeah.

   3. CWChris Williamson30:57

      How do those fit together? How do we know what our true drives are, et cetera?

   4. SPDr Steve Peters31:03

      Drives are innate compelling, um, emotions, feelings we get. Um, they're biologically driven, so there's a drive to eat, uh, and everybody has that drive, so it's exceptional not to have an eating drive, all right? Most people, it's extremely strong, 'cause it's a survival drive, it's common sense. There's a, there are lots of drives, there's a drive for security, so... and it's where you turn to fulfill that drive. So we talk to teenagers who will turn to their peer group for security. We've explained that's got, uh, traumatic results at times. Uh, but if we turn for security to our environment, that will help the chimp, but not necessarily the human. Our humans turn to security by looking within ourself and our resources and what we think we can manage in life. So a human, for security, doesn't go on the environment. It may help, but it won't help in overall. The chimp will look on the environment, but getting the right environment, but that doesn't help with the mind. So you often get a great environment, but the chimp's still... uh, the human's still agitated saying, "I don't feel." So other drives, uh, the sex drive is very powerful, and obviously that leads to a lot of difficulties with a lot of people, uh, because they can't manage it, um, and the chimp can take over, so if there's nothing in the computer, we get into difficulty. So drives are compelling things that get us out of our seats without us having to do anything, they just make us move. Thirst is a drive, the drive for thirst. There's lots of them, the drive to be with people. If you move on to beliefs, these are now what your experiences are or what you've been taught. So a belief, for example, again, I'm taking extremes, um, let's say I believe that all people are, are good and they're nice. I'm leaving myself very vulnerable to those I know will take advantage of me. So I'll be taken in, I'm naive, if I have that extreme belief. If I have the extreme belief that all people are not to be trusted, that can have repercussions of me feeling very isolated and not trusting someone, so I don't get any depths of friendships or interpersonal relationships. So you have to look and say, what are your beliefs? So if you have a belief, which I push a lot, uh, the, the one in five belief, and that's based more on reality and the, the research that's given, that about one in five people love you regardless, all right? They're pretty deluded really, because even when you're not in the right, they'll still believe you, all right? One in five people criticize you regardless. Unfortunately, they're often the most vocal. So unfortunately, with the social media, these are the main bulk of people coming in, and that's really sad that, uh, we have one in five people who are quite caustic. Um, and three out of five are reasonable, decent people who weigh you up on what you do. So they like you if you're really decent and honest, but they probably won't if you're not. So if you have that belief that one in five people you need to be wary of because... and one in five people don't get flattered and misled, but three out of five learn who the balanced ones are if you want sound boarding. So if you go in with that belief, which I believe is the correct one, but that's my bias, then it means I'm constantly assessing, hang on, is this someone I trust or is this someone who's gonna just flatter me and... or is this someone who's balanced and will challenge me appropriately, uh, and then make me stop and think, "Hey, hang on, they might have a point?" So beliefs are something that guide you, but they're quite strong because obviously these are what I call the gremlins and the autopilots, that if these... but you try to do something and a belief stops you, uh, then that can be a positive influence or a negative. So even sensible beliefs like don't skate on an icy pond, you know, especially if it's thawing, you know, that's common sense. So you have that belief 'cause you either taught it or you've experienced it. So that's beliefs. Beliefs, you have millions of beliefs. Some of them are very strong and some of them are not that influential, but we form them generically and we form them specifically for cer- circumstances. Um, values are really important to me. The reason I push values, when I started doing this work 30 years ago and creating this model of the mind as I was gonna use for my patients, um, and again, there will be people who disagree with me, I'm only giving you what I believe and what's experienced over the last 30 years, the only thing that gave peace of mind, which is different to happiness... So peace of mind is knowing what your values are and knowing at the end of the day you've lived by your values. So I worked on my values and I found no matter what happens around me, whether I get criticized, misunderstood, misrepresented, these things will disturb most of us. Uh, at the end of the day, I can look in the mirror and think, have I lived by my values? And if so, I'm at peace with myself. It doesn't matter, it's uncomfortable, but I can live with it because I'm... I respect myself. So when I looked at this and did it with experience with patients, everyone said once you know your values, you're almost immune. You start realizing that's what's gonna stabilize me and give peace of mind. So it's very important to know how to find values and what they are and not muddle them up with things like what's valuable to me, that's not a value. So I was trying to say, once you've got your values, then you can measure, which I ask people to do, demonstrate your values in action every day, because that will bring you a peace of mind thinking, "I did the right thing."

9. 36:35 – 45:13

   What We Misunderstand About Our Values

   1. CWChris Williamson36:35

      In your experience, where do most people go wrong when it comes to working out their values, sitting down with a piece of paper, or doing some exercise online or whatever? What are, what are the dos and the don'ts when it comes to defining values for most people?

   2. SPDr Steve Peters36:52

      Values. There's a confusion there because if you go online and say, "What's a value?" you're gonna get a lot of different definitions. So I had to say, "Well, what am I talking about?" So the people I work with, I try and agree this is the definition of a value, and then we, at least we're on the same page. Um, so I'm gonna go with what I've created as a definition, but, uh, uh, a lot of other people have got the same definition, but I, I agree with them. So, a value is a moral belief that you hold, something you think is what should happen. A decent person, which is gonna be me, I'm gonna live by this decent value or this belief, uh, which is gonna be acted out with a behavior. So for example, like they can be subtle. Let's say, uh, which many people do, I want to respect everyone, because if I knowingly disrespect someone, I feel bad. I lose my peace of mind. If I unwittingly disrespect someone and then realize it or get told, that will unsettle me. So I need to know, how do I measure respecting someone? So for me, I would put down number one is, I listen to someone. I don't have to agree with them, but I give them an audience. I don't attack them, I listen. And what their views are, I listen to their views. And I, I believe personally, for me, that's showing respect. So if I wanted to say, let's just check on respecting people, I'm gonna have a week where I actually say, "How many times did you dive in without listening? Or how many times did you stop?" Especially in an emotional discussion. How many times do you stop and say, "I want to li- actively listen to what they're saying, understand it. I don't have to agree, but understand it and respect that value or that belief?" So that's an example. Uh, what people do is they muddle things up and they say things like, "Uh, my car." (laughs) You know, that's not a value because there's no behavior. It's what you're saying is valuable to me. I really get a lot of pleasure and enjoyment out of my car, but that's not gonna be bringing you peace of mind. All right? It may bring you happiness, so, and I like to work on happiness separately to peace of mind.

   3. CWChris Williamson38:58

      A lot of the exercises that I've seen online looking at things like core values do work, uh, uh, you come up with answers with things like, uh, curiosity, adventure, self-development, self-care. It seems like a key part of your definition is that it is, uh, there is an action. There is something which is-

   4. SPDr Steve Peters39:20

      Yeah. Right.

   5. CWChris Williamson39:20

      ... i- i- it's gonna influence your behavior and how you show up in the world.

   6. SPDr Steve Peters39:23

      S- um, yeah.

   7. CWChris Williamson39:25

      Certain things like curiosity, uh, uh, become very nebulous and difficult to define. Uh, you know, they're, they're like, um, intrinsic parts of your personality or the bits of you that you enjoy or respect, but when it comes to creating, like enacting that, it feels like there's a little bit more of a difficulty going on there. Is there anything to say about that? About, uh, some of the...

   8. SPDr Steve Peters39:50

      Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I get your point. I think for me, uh, curiosity comes under what I would loosely call it is the drive for stimulation. Um, so some people, the stimulation will be just going on a computer game, but their brain is satisfied with that. Whereas for many people it wants difference, it wants new experiences. It wants to see, "What would happen if..." So we know that some people are more prone to saying, "Let's test things out, let's..." And some people are wanting to achieve something. So I always put under this, uh, heading of stimulation, um, and again, most of us have got something we want as a stimulus, but it can't even be as straightforward as a social group. It doesn't have to be, you know, "I'm gonna learn a new language or I'm gonna get to a new level on a computer game." And so I try and ex- uh, explore that with people to say, "What are you doing to give stimulation to both your human and your chimp? What is it they both want? And what's gonna satisfy that?" And again, I think there's different drives for the human and chimp. So I work out, 'cause some people are much more cerebral and say, "I'd like to have a discussion group like, uh, you know, uh, reading a certain book and going in the club and discussing it," whereas others say that's a nightmare. Uh, the stimulation could be just being part of a group that supports a football team. But you're looking to see some people get stuck and they don't have any, and then they'll say things like, "I feel dissatisfied." I think... and it's hard when you don't know which way to turn. Um, I do, um, I love animals. I've got a lot of animals around me. (laughs) I've removed some from the room in case they make noises while we do this. Uh, so I rescue some animals and, um, I know some people discover that. Uh, so I've had people I've worked with and they've said, "Once you get an animal, not for everyone, uh, suddenly you've got this responsibility, this interaction, this..." You see the animal's world differently and it's, they'll, they use that as displacing care onto the animal, and they get great satisfactions. That's one example. Uh, so I would explore t- with people what y'all calling curiosity. I'd say, stimulation, the drive to get stimulation and experience.

   9. CWChris Williamson41:55

      Yeah, that's very interesting. Uh, I think I probably need to revisit, uh, my, what I've deemed core values, perhaps erroneously.

   10. SPDr Steve Peters42:02

       Mm-hmm.

   11. CWChris Williamson42:03

       Uh, it was maybe three or four years ago when I, I put mine together and in there were a lot of things that I actually can see as stimulation. Two of them were curiosity and adventure, and they're things that I like to do, uh, but I, I'm trying to run them through a more fine filter, which is, okay, how does this inform the way that I behave in the world? And I don't know if they necessarily give me guidance with regards to that. So I think it-

   12. SPDr Steve Peters42:32

       Let's do some therapy with you.

   13. CWChris Williamson42:34

       Hit me, hit me. There's only-

   14. SPDr Steve Peters42:35

       It's not-

   15. CWChris Williamson42:35

       ... there's only a million people watching-

   16. SPDr Steve Peters42:36

       Not really therapy. It's-

   17. CWChris Williamson42:36

       ... so it's fine. Cool.

   18. SPDr Steve Peters42:38

       That's fine. (laughs) It's not really therapy, it's just saying if you ask me to look at this, I would try and get us so we understand the, the blocks we're working with. So, we're looking at your values as being something of, if you buy into this, as peace of mind and things that are, are moral behaviors that you think I should do the following. You know, respect people, uh, help people, y- I don't know what your values would be. Uh, and now you've asked something different. You said, "I've, I've got this drive. Uh, wh- where does curiosity come in?" I'd put that under one of your drives and say, "Clearly it's important to you, so let's look at how you're gonna get mental stimulation through those drives." But you're moving onto different areas again when you're looking at things like happiness, 'cause if you're saying that, uh, clearly drives overlap. So, happiness is something that most people search for. It's an odd one, this, because I know when I started writing the books, I was told that, "Oh, happiness are what people want." And I had a little bit of difficulty because I don't search for that. I'm not saying I don't want it, but it's not a big feature in me. I'm content to be peaceful, you know? Um, but I'm not someone who searches for this great happiness and... You know, I'm just happy to be just okay every day. That's satisfying to me. So I'm a little bit odd that way. Um, but if you are saying, "No, Steve, I need this. I want stimulation, but I also want, like, fulfillment," 'cause I'm expecting your curiosity is leading somewhere, you know? So, I would be saying to you let's look at what you're trying to get that fulfills your chimp brain, which is a really good thing to do, that gives you a great feeling and a wellness, and it may be excitement, adrenaline, it may be satisfaction. But I'd have to say, what are the words that are appropriate for what you're trying to achieve? It could be all of them, 'cause then we can start understanding what it is you're doing. But I have to say, you have to be careful, 'cause once you get so analytical, you just get on with your life. And I'm saying just be spontaneous. But if you're finding that you not feel fulfilled, that's when I think, "Let's analyze. Let's see what we can look at in the blocks. What's missing?" So you're right. When you're saying you... I'm not sure you defined them clearly and therefore you won't be-

   19. CWChris Williamson44:42

       Yep.

   20. SPDr Steve Peters44:42

       ... using them to advantage.

   21. CWChris Williamson44:44

       Yeah. I think that's accurate. I think that functionally it sounds, it sounds nice and they're definitely things that I enjoy, but when it comes down to sort of what functional utility does it give me, uh, can I look back on my day, look in the mirror, and go, "I was curious today, therefore I feel at peace with myself"? There are ma- many, many more things, including respect for others, which is a really great one from you, uh, that I think would more highly influence the peace of mind

10. 45:13 – 48:12

    Tensions Between Peace of Mind & Happiness

    1. CWChris Williamson45:13

       that I have. You've mentioned it a couple of times, I want to dig into this, this tension between peace of mind and happiness, and, and, uh, what's going on there?

    2. SPDr Steve Peters45:23

       Yeah, they, they sometimes don't go together. You know? It's like, let's say I have, I've got staff. Let's say I've got a member of staff who's really not fitting in with the group, um, we've got m- I haven't, just in case any of my staff are listening.

    3. CWChris Williamson45:37

       Uh, uh, Andy, you, Andy.

    4. SPDr Steve Peters45:38

       Uh, and they're clearly causing a problem. (laughs) . It's n- definitely not Andy.

    5. CWChris Williamson45:43

       Okay.

    6. SPDr Steve Peters45:43

       No, I haven't got anyone. But if let's say I did and I thought, "You know, the team are not gelling and we've got this person who's not fitting in with our values," or they're n- they've just tried but they just don't work well, then I know that the right thing to do morally is to, uh, grasp them up and go and see them and say, "Look, it's a mismatch." You know? There's no negative in that sense. It's gonna be difficult. And they may, they may get atta- I've had this in the past, they may attack me and, and say all the things in the world, you know, "You're meant to be this caring person." But I'm thinking it's for the good. So, I would leave that. I wouldn't be happy, you know? I'm not saying I don't wanna be happy, by the way. But I wouldn't be happy, but I'd have peace of mind I know I've done the right thing. And in the long run, they may not like me, uh, and have nothing good to say about me, but I know in the long run it's for the best for them and the team. So there's an example where peace of mind and happiness don't go together. Um, and it can go the other way. I could be happy about something, uh, but not have peace of mind, 'cause I think actually, "You didn't do the right thing." You know? So overall, I'm gonna end up feeling not so good. I'll think, yeah, "It's just superficial happiness."

    7. CWChris Williamson46:50

       I was gonna say, do you think... I- it seems to me that happiness without peace of mind is more difficult to achieve.

    8. SPDr Steve Peters46:57

       Yeah.

    9. CWChris Williamson46:57

       That peace of mind acts as a, a-

    10. SPDr Steve Peters47:00

        Yeah.

    11. CWChris Williamson47:01

        ... tarnish that can, that can kind of-

    12. SPDr Steve Peters47:03

        Yeah.

    13. CWChris Williamson47:03

        ... color and jade any experiences. And that the-

    14. SPDr Steve Peters47:06

        Yeah.

    15. CWChris Williamson47:06

        ... happiness will inevitably be more fleeting or, or more fragile.

    16. SPDr Steve Peters47:10

        Yeah. I haven't done this, uh, just in case people think, "Oh..." Uh, but obviously it's part of my job, um, I've examined over the years doctors and medical students, 'cause that's my world, uh, and I'm with the Royal College and, uh, y- you know, I want people to pass. I don't like to fail anybody. And so if somebody's borderline, you're thinking, "Oh, well, they don't really, really deserve to pass," I haven't done this, uh, my happiness would be to pass them, but I wouldn't have peace of mind, 'cause I'd think, you know, "At the end of the day, you were wrong. You shouldn't do this." But I might think, "I know their something so much." And then I'll justify, rationalize, "Well, I'm sure they'll learn on the job and I'm sure they'll be fine. And I've got..." But that's rationalizing. So, you can see there's an example where somebody might lose peace of mind but actually feel at the time, "I'm happy 'cause I, I've passed them, 'cause if I don't, I'm gonna have such unhappiness." So sometimes we compromise our values, which lead to us having less of a peace of mind. And I'm not saying it's right or wrong, I'm saying it's something people have to decide on.

    17. CWChris Williamson48:11

        Yeah, that's very interesting.

11. 48:12 – 58:11

    What Steve Has Learned from the NHS About Burnout

    1. CWChris Williamson48:12

       You brought up your work with, uh, medical staff. You've just done this new study, or you've been, you've completed and now published a study on burnout and wellbeing, I think imon- amongst NHF nurses and maybe doctors as well. Th- talk to me about, uh, sort of burnout as a concept. It's kind of a buzzword at the moment. I think a lot of people maybe do feel that they are overwhelmed with workload and stimulus and, "I don't really have time for myself and I feel like the past maybe I was, like, more peaceful or, or, uh, things were slower, uh, and then..."... burnout as a concept and then let's-

    2. SPDr Steve Peters48:44

       Yeah.

    3. CWChris Williamson48:44

       ... fold in this new study and what you learned from your time working with the NHS, then.

    4. SPDr Steve Peters48:50

       Yeah, I was with the NHS for over 20 years, so, uh, it was a great time. Um, burnout, uh, a- again, it's defined differently, but I think it's common sense what we mean. It means you suddenly feel like you don't have the energy anymore. You get up in the morning and you dread it. So, for a doctor, for example, let's go back to my experiences, I would do outpatients twice a week, uh, and if I'm starting to suffer burnout, I was thinking, "I can't face it. I just wanna get through this." Uh, that's a sign of burnout. Whereas, uh, n- normally I'd be, uh, keen and enthusiastic to go and see them or, or thinking, you know, "If I get the slightest headache, I'm just gonna phone in sick." Uh, and you get signs of burnout. So there's a number of them. Anxiety, poor sleep, uh, but it's generally this feeling of, "I just can't do this. I can't do it. I'm overwhelmed," as you pointed out. So, with that in mind, when I did the CHIMP model, which just took off, and then, uh, it's- it's very humbling 'cause obviously it was meant to be just for medical students to learn the newer science. When the CHIMP model did take off, uh, I wanted to go back to my roots and I- I worked... Uh, we did a series of workshops, uh, I called it Skills for Life, i- and it's emotional management and understanding yourself, so it's based on- on A Path Through the Jungle, and we said, "We'll take..." We took 80 GPs from a county nearby, uh, and we- I said to them, "We'll run eight workshops and we'll see whether this affects your health, uh, your communication with your staff, your burnout, your sickness rates," and that was just a pilot run I did, and it worked fantastically. Again, credit to the GPs and the staff who were working with the GPs. They worked on it, and they said it did make a massive difference. So, as a doctor, obviously I'm bringing out this model which is semi-fun but serious, I wanna know it actually works 'cause otherwise it's fraudulent. Um, so then I took, uh, I studied with 200 teachers, uh, and went into the schools and we tried to say, "Let's have a look at you," and we had three centers study, and again, it's only a pilot run, with teachers in York, Birmingham, and Cambridge. And- and that was just, again, just a pilot run. So we did it roughly and ready, and the feedback was really, really encouraging. So, I didn't actually do the next study 'cause clearly I can't do my own assessment. So, it was taken out of my hands by an independent research group, uh, and I was, uh, not allowed to do the teaching bit. I was put to one side, which I accept, and I think that's right. Uh, and they underwent these series of eight workshops, and then they did analysis, which is published in the Journal for Mental Health, uh, and it showed a massive reduction in burnout, a massive reduction in, um, health issues, um, and a general health questionnaire was used, uh, to show that the- the increased health w- was marked. So, we were excited by that. Obviously I'm over the moon. Uh, the nurses were brilliant in engaging it. Brilliant. Uh, but they took it seriously because obviously they're front line and the stress on them is immense. And amazingly it was done under COVID. Uh, we had to do it online, uh, because, uh... And they all were brilliant to say, "We'll keep going." Uh, and the feedback was great. So we're now undergoing a- another group. I'm not involved. Uh, independent researchers are doing 200 doctors. Um, and again, I do a lot of talks to medical staff because this is my world and I'm more familiar with the medical world than I am sport. Um, so, it- it's very encouraging. So we run this for the public as well. It's not just academics or... Uh, and it's just to say, "If it resonates with you, then you can do this and see what you think." Uh, and the general feel is it- it... Now the research is published and analyzed, that it- it does have an impact. I was wary that it wasn't, like, something, a flash in the pan, 'cause obviously a lot of therapies and they s- they- they don't hold, so we did go back to the GPs months later without warning and say, "Give us another feed," and- and found it held, which wasn't surprising 'cause what I'm asking people to do is- is approach life differently. And once you do that, you more or less keep doing it. Um, but you do have to maintain. I do say to people, "Five or ten minutes a day is all I ask to maintain these and learn to get your mind in order before you leave the house in the morning." That's- that's what I'm after.

    5. CWChris Williamson53:01

       What do you think it is specifically about your approach that is assisting with the symptoms of burnout o- o- or targeting even the root cause of- of burnout and overwhelm?

    6. SPDr Steve Peters53:16

       My hou- I think, genuinely, I think it isn't the model per se, I think it's the person being able to understand themself and start looking after themself and start understanding things like I mentioned, trigger points, uh, recognizing anxiety rather than not seeing it. So, um, we give, teach them about subtle signs of anxiety, then recognizing how to detect things like beliefs that are not helping. So we're challenging a lot of things but it's- it's all about the unique person, empowering them and giving them the tools to get their life and- and be the person that they are. That's what it's about. So when you do that, which will include practical things like communication skills, assertiveness, uh, but learning how to communicate with the human side of the brain rather than the CHIMP brain which is emotionally driven and can often cause more problems. So it's a big overall of looking at you. I think that's why it's working, 'cause the person makes it work. They have to decide. I can't decide what works for them.

    7. CWChris Williamson54:17

       Yeah, and as you've sorta, uh, emphasized today, because we are so idiosyncratic and because our drives and our genetic predisposition and our life experiences and the ways we've dealt with past trauma and all of that are so unique, it needs to be something which is sufficiently scalable and e- each person presumably individually finds their own flavor of this. And that resonates-

    8. SPDr Steve Peters54:42

       Yeah.

    9. CWChris Williamson54:42

       ... with me because I'm more of an angry CHIMP person, or my CHIMP and my human are Chris Hoy rather than Ronnie O'Sullivan.

    10. SPDr Steve Peters54:49

        Right. And that's why I say, I can't... I say this to people, only you are going to discover. All I can do is help you and catalyze ways forward and suggest, but I'm gonna have to ask you to do the work. It's not me that does the work. I, I do my bit. Um, but again, I'd say at this point, you know, it doesn't resonate with everyone. It's not for everyone. Um, and there are fantastic therapies out there, and my job, along with everyone in this field, is to say, "Just try and get the best out of yourself and quality of life." So, you know, if people go for mind formers, CBT, these are excellent therapies, they're excellent models to work with. I mean, I, I'm an academic, so I like evidence-based. However, uh, if people go for things where there's no evidence, as... If it works for you, I'm not arguing, right? (laughs) Uh, all I'll say is be very careful that you don't get fooled by something, particularly someone who, you know, is giving you stuff that's gonna work in the short term, uh, and then find you collapse down. So it's gotta be something solid. And there's plenty of stuff out there to resonate with.

    11. CWChris Williamson55:50

        Have you found a particular cohort of people that the CHIMP model works particularly well or particularly poorly with?

    12. SPDr Steve Peters55:58

        That's a good question, and the answer is no, uh, because it's whether that person gets it. I mean, some time ago, when I very first started doing this, I was asked to do a brief television series, which was with some women. I got four of them, and they asked me to, uh, teach them to ride a bike, 'cause I was with Cycling at the time-

    13. CWChris Williamson56:16

        (laughs)

    14. SPDr Steve Peters56:17

        ... uh, but they had to lose weight and learn how to manage their mind. So it was a bit of a, a funning- a fun series I did. I loved it. The women were brilliant. They were brilliant. Great fun to work with. But it was interesting that the, the CHIMP model was almost imposed upon them. I mean, they knew who, who I was at the time, it's some years ago, but one of them didn't resonate with it at all, and I was happy, I said, "No, I can talk in different terms." But she had a moment where she'd been... she was doing some sport, and, um, she'd gone after sport justifying why she was getting a takeaway. Um, and she knew she was on telly, and she said, "I sat outside the takeaway, and I said, 'I deserve this because I've worked hard, I've run off a lot of calories,' and then I said to myself, 'You're on a television program, you're meant to be losing weight.'" Yeah. And then she rang me and said, "I've just found my CHIMP." She said, "It was bizarre. I was talking, and I'm thinking, 'Who am I talking to?'" So sometimes the penny has to drop where you think, "I get what the neuroscience is." But it doesn't happen for everyone, and I- that's why I'm saying, find something that resonates with you. So who works with it is the person that resonates. So my youngest student is three, or ha- was three, who got it, and would talk about his naughty CHIMP. Um, the eldest person that's come to me that's actually said, "This really works," is about 80. Um, and what he was, he was quite annoyed with me, saying, "Why didn't you write this 60 years ago?" I thought-

    15. CWChris Williamson57:46

        (laughs)

    16. SPDr Steve Peters57:46

        ... well, (laughs) I was a little boy at the time-

    17. CWChris Williamson57:49

        Yeah.

    18. SPDr Steve Peters57:49

        ... I didn't have any knowledge.

    19. CWChris Williamson57:50

        Yeah.

    20. SPDr Steve Peters57:51

        Yeah, but I've had a lot of people who are... which is very humbling to me, who are in their 60s and 70s saying, "Ah, if only I had known this." So they're vehement, "You must bring this to schools."

    21. CWChris Williamson58:01

        Yeah.

    22. SPDr Steve Peters58:02

        Uh, but I don't want to impose it. I think someone has to resonate, so there's a danger of imposing, and that, that's the last thing I wanna do. It's gotta be empowerment.

12. 58:11 – 1:02:58

    The Truth About Mental Robustness & Resilience

    1. SPDr Steve Peters58:11

    2. CWChris Williamson58:11

       Rounding out that conversation around, uh, sort of burnout and overwhelm, you spend a good bit of time in the new book talking about, uh, robustness, m- mental robustness, and, and resilience. Big buzzwords. You know, a lot of the guys that I've had on the show, people like David Goggins, who's this ultra-endurance athlete, Jocko Willink, who wrote a book, uh, a- about discipline equaling freedom, um, a lot of discussion about mental resilience and robustness.

    3. SPDr Steve Peters58:36

       Yeah.

    4. CWChris Williamson58:36

       Um, what, what is interesting, do you think, about... or what have you learned about your conception of resilience and robustness compared with maybe what, what most people don't understand or get wrong about it?

    5. SPDr Steve Peters58:48

       Again, your definitions are so vague. If you start looking, there are so many different people saying, "This is what robustness is." So I had to do the same, I had to say to myself, "Define it," so if people are following you, they say, "Okay, if we use that definition, I see what you get, going to." So I define robustness as having a plan. So we can all become robust. It's like getting a toy for a child and saying, "We've designed it for the child." Resilience is handing it over and see if it works. (laughs) So resilience is where you go out of the wor- into the world and say, "Right, so I would have a mental strategy and plan to deal with my trigger points, but when I get out there, that's being robust, I'm ready to leave the room." The second they get out, now its resilience is the skill to stay robust, is to stay in that same strong position. So I think robustness we can all get to, but being resilient is a skill. And I think that's where people come on stuck, 'cause they start beating themself up instead of saying, "It's a skill." That means you've got to acquire it and maintain it, but also, some days, you, you get it wrong, like any sports person. Uh, for me, managing my mind is a skill, and every day I've got to work on this. So every day I do. Every day I have usually around four points in the day where I do a, a quick check and say, "Right, can we just make sure we're in human mode, make sure my beliefs are back in place, make sure I understand, get perspective?" Um, that's what I do. Very briefly, it can take a minute, five minutes, uh, but that resets my mind. So I'm resetting. So I think resilience is something you've got to work on and know how to use your skill. But it's not easy. So that's why when I wrote the, A Path to the Jungle, I was saying, "I'm gonna show all the basics, so you know what... how, what, how things work in your mind, what resonates with you, what doesn't, so you can do the exercise to get yourself in a great place." By the end of it, you've now got robustness, and you've got some ideas on how to become resilient, and that's why I did a bit of troubleshooting at the end to say these are the common things that I find people say, "It's not working for some reason."... you know? Uh, Ronnie O'Sullivan did say, as he's obviously he- he has permission to sell anything. I'd worked with him about two years, and he rang me one morning and he was very much in chimp mode and distressed, and he said, "It's not working, it's not working." I'm quite harsh. And I said to him, "Have you done the work?" And he said, "No." So I said, "Okay, I'm gonna put the phone down, ring me when you've done the work." So I put the phone down. Uh, and he rang me about three or four days later and I said, "How are you doing?" He said, "Brilliant." I said, "Why?" He said, "I did the work." Uh, you know? So the answer's simple. It's no different to anything else. You've got to do the work. And the work is making sure your values are in place, making sure what we did, the stone of life not mentioned, with all your beliefs in place, uh, and what the rules of the way the world works. You know, these are the truths of life. Um, and then also put in place a perspective plan. So when he- he did that, he said, "Yeah, it's working again." So the answer is when people say to me, "It's not working," is I always ask, "Have you done the work?" And sometimes people need guidance 'cause they'll do, they really try hard, but they're trying hard on the wrong things. And then you've gotta say, "Hang on, can I just adapt that or modify this?" And so a little subtleness, and then they go, "Oh, okay, I'm off again." And that's why I call my team the mentors, 'cause they're there not to instruct, they're there to mentor you.

    6. CWChris Williamson1:02:22

       Mm-hmm.

    7. SPDr Steve Peters1:02:22

       To saying, "Oh, let me help you. Uh, there's a glitch here." And challenge things so you can work it out.

    8. CWChris Williamson1:02:28

       Yeah, the, uh, tendency that we all have to complain about results we're not getting from effort that we're not making is (laughs) -

    9. SPDr Steve Peters1:02:37

       Yeah.

    10. CWChris Williamson1:02:37

        ... very, very pervasive. And I see it, I see it in myself if I start a new training program, or switch my diet up, or try and do something different with my bedtime routine. "I, I, I it's whate-" It's like, "You've done it for three days. You, what, what do you mean? And you-"

    11. SPDr Steve Peters1:02:51

        Yeah.

    12. CWChris Williamson1:02:51

        "... did that one of those days you didn't do it because such and such a thing happened or you were away from home." So yeah, it's... One of the

13. 1:02:58 – 1:13:14

    Steve’s Philosophical Underpinnings

    1. CWChris Williamson1:02:58

       things I'm getting here, and it's interesting, there's almost like a- a philosophical underpinning here. A- y- you know, your own personal philosophy about the way that the world is. And obviously we- we experience the world through the texture of our own mind.

    2. SPDr Steve Peters1:03:14

       Yeah.

    3. CWChris Williamson1:03:14

       It's the only way that we have to experience the world. Even experiences from other people still get filtered through our own mind.

    4. SPDr Steve Peters1:03:21

       Yup, yeah.

    5. CWChris Williamson1:03:22

       Um, and yet it does... There is a- a sort of almost like a whimsical philosophy, uh, undercurrent that I'm sensing through- through some of the stuff that you're talking about. Making sense of the world around us.

    6. SPDr Steve Peters1:03:36

       Yeah, I didn't want to be restrictive when I did this, to saying, right... I mean, obviously I've been taught very well with philosophical models and medical models and psychological. Uh, but I didn't want to restrict people. I think it's what people wanna do with it and make of it. I'm very much, uh, keen that they have empowerment, but I still will challenge things. I'll challenge beliefs people hold, uh, because if I think that's holding them back, beliefs about themself particularly, or- or other people or the world, um, but I will... Yeah, I think there is a philosophy underpinning it, but it's your philosophy. And I think sounding boards, we use friends to do this all the time. We- we say something and they'll correct us or say, "Oh, do you really see it that way?" So what I'm doing is doing that with hopefully the newer science behind it, uh, to give that push. But I want to take you back to something you said, because, um, on the thing it doesn't work, uh, one of the commonest things I get, and this is an example of why it doesn't work. Sometimes if you do work for a few days and then you miss a day or two, uh, you can go backwards depending on what you're trying to achieve. So I'm gonna give sleep as an example. Um, I ran sleep clinics a long time ago, and, um, people say to me, "I just d- have terrible sleep." And one of the general rules of sleep is that you... It's a- it's a learnt behavior. So although there's all these circadian rhythms, they're actually secondary to learnt behavior. Mm-hmm. So if we get you to learn a behavior of sleep, then your brain will start to follow this and your body will. Uh, the circadian rhythm is obviously powerful, but it's not as powerful as b- as habit. So i- I work with people who say, "Right," and I say, "Go to bed whatever time it is, 10 o'clock, wake up 7 o'clock, and that's your sleep." And they'll do this for, say, and I'm making this up, five days. Uh, and then Saturday comes, they, "Oh well, we were late home, we went home at 1 o'clock and then got to bed and I slept in till 10." And the rules, I'm being very black and white, the rules are simple. For the next three or four days, you're finished. You can't do that with a brain. So now your sleep's gone out until about Wednesday or Thursday, so now you try again and you say, "Well, I'm doing what you said." But that's... The subtlety is, no you didn't. You have to stick to it Saturday, Sunday as well. Now, I know some people get away with it 'cause we're variants, we're not all the same. But the general rule is once you do that, you're finished. I- i- it won't accept this disruption of sleep. So again, I'm trying to point out that sometimes there's subtleties in the way the mind works, and it's the same with emotional stuff, which is why I preśmy program things about four times a day. 'Cause my experience for me is if I don't, then I get minor chimp... My son, my team might say major chimp outbursts. Uh, and then I think, "Gee," and I have to come around and say, "Okay, sorry about that. Let's start again." All right? But if I prime it about three or four times, get it back in tune, I tend never to get one.

    7. CWChris Williamson1:06:30

       What I really-

    8. SPDr Steve Peters1:06:31

       So it's consistency.

    9. CWChris Williamson1:06:32

       Yeah. What I really appreciate about, uh, your approach and what you've gone through today is a real, uh, humbleness or- or sort of a- a- a- a lack of ego, or at least an apparent lack of ego, uh, around, uh, needing to be right. And I think that it's a very strong signal of trustworthiness that it's just, "I want people to be better. I want them to have a better relationship with themselves, people that are around them. I want them to have more peace of mind and- and live a- a more flourishing, better life."... you have an approach that you believe in, but if there are other things that people do, I, I think it's, it's a very, um, refreshing way, uh, in a world in which everybody is trying to prove themselves to be right, and prove their models and their world views, and their books or their courses to be a thing-

    10. SPDr Steve Peters1:07:18

        Yeah, but... No, but the, the, the reality is (laughs) that none of us are always right, and that not everyone will resonate. So I, I'm not... It's very nice of you to say it, but I don't see it as humble. I think it's being rational that, you know, there are plenty of other models that people will say, "This is much better." Or, "This, I don't get this chimp model." Uh, so I don't think it's necessarily humble (laughs) . Uh, and I think on the ego thing, to be fair, like a lot of people that, um, who are in medical wor- um, and allied sciences, and philosophies, and all this, uh, where we're practical therapist- therapists, we're there to help people we get a kick out of. So, in a sense you're feeding your ego because, but it's only about for you to think, "Oh, that person really did well." So I thrive, and I think it's nice too, on the people doing well. So to me, you know, seeing someone suddenly saying, "I've really got my act together," or achieved something, like Chris Hoy did, you feel thrilled that you're saying, "I had a little bit of a part in that." Uh, so there is-

    11. CWChris Williamson1:08:17

        See, Steve, you're, you're even humble in your humbleness-

    12. SPDr Steve Peters1:08:20

        (laughs) .

    13. CWChris Williamson1:08:20

        ... which is un-falsifiable.

    14. SPDr Steve Peters1:08:23

        No, not, not terrible (laughs) .

    15. CWChris Williamson1:08:23

        I'm gonna keep on, I'm gonna keep on accusing you of it. No, I really, I really do like it, and I think (clears throat) the, the idea of the mind having this hidden metric, right? The fact that our peace of mind-

    16. SPDr Steve Peters1:08:33

        Yeah.

    17. CWChris Williamson1:08:33

        ... our happiness, the fact that we're living in alignment with our values, we don't see it day-to-day in the same way. It doesn't appear on a scale in the same way. And I'm fascinated by how people sacrifice hidden metrics for observable metrics. So, uh, let's say, let's take, um, peace of mind and money. A lot of the time people will sacrifice peace of mind in order to get money because it is so difficult to see. And I, I really think that one of the things that appears to be happening here is trying to make that hidden metric a little bit more observable by checking in, by seeing where I'm at, by reflecting on what I've done.

    18. SPDr Steve Peters1:09:11

        I, well, again, I guess I'm a doctor and a, a scientist at heart, and I like to measure things. And so, I do like people to see that progress. 'Cause we also know how chimp brains like to achieve, as our humans do, so I do push this to say, "Let's get a scale to measure things." Even happiness, you know, we've already talked about it, um, but I ask people not to give me a scale of five out of 10 'cause I don't think that really helps. Because one minute they're one, and one minute they're nine. What I do is I say things like, "Tell me five things that will make you happy." And they're, like, simple things, so it could be, uh, having a cup of coffee, uh, going for a walk with the dog, or it could be going out with friends for a meal. So what I do is say, "Right, I want you to measure how many times you do that in a week," because we know that if you do those things, the chance of you being happy go up. So I measure indirects, so I often don't measure directs. I think what's gonna influence you to get what you want? So I'm quite keen on happiness lists, I go on about them because, again, because most people do wanna be happy. I do wanna be happy. (laughs) I've made myself into this kind of weird person, but-

    19. CWChris Williamson1:10:18

        (laughs) .

    20. SPDr Steve Peters1:10:19

        ... uh, but I'm saying peace of mind for me. I have a peace of mind list, all right?

    21. CWChris Williamson1:10:23

        Yes.

    22. SPDr Steve Peters1:10:24

        Uh, but, but I think, happiness lists, I think are really important, and I like to divide them into instantaneous, 'cause that can make a difference to our chimps, maybe not us humans. So for me, a cup of coffee is right at the top of the list. I'm, I'm an addict-

    23. CWChris Williamson1:10:37

        (laughs) .

    24. SPDr Steve Peters1:10:38

        ... so if I, if I wanna get happy, I grab a coffee and think, "I'm happy now."

    25. CWChris Williamson1:10:42

        Yeah. Yeah.

    26. SPDr Steve Peters1:10:42

        I even use that as a emotional blackmail on my chimp. So if I've got 50 emails and I've got to do them, uh, and my chimp doesn't wanna do emails, right? But I know it'll benefit people so I'll say, "You're not getting coffee till we do 10." I've no idea why, but it will do 10. So we both do 10, and then I get a coffee. So, uh, and it works for me. So, simple, simple (laughs) .

    27. CWChris Williamson1:11:05

        There's an equivalent, you, you may have seen this in some of the, the training sessions that you've either done yourself or observed but, uh, in CrossFit especially, you will have a, a time-bounded workout, and the coach will be stood at the front of the room, and you'll be... Your heart rate's at 180, and you've got the taste of metal in the back of your throat, and you hate the coach and the workout and gravity and everything. And the coach does this thing, every single CrossFit gym on the planet does this, the coach will shout from the front of the room, "Chris, get back on the bar, three, two, one, jump on the bar." And there's something about that countdown, and it's like someone's literally put their hand inside of you, and made you do the thing that they were going to do. And I, uh, the, the idea of, like, you're not getting a coffee, or you're not gonna go for a walk, or you're not gonna do the whatever-

    28. SPDr Steve Peters1:11:49

        Yeah.

    29. CWChris Williamson1:11:49

        ... um, there are (laughs) like these little bugs or features perhaps in the code that we have that's running our operating system, and sometimes you can just-

    30. SPDr Steve Peters1:11:59

        Yeah.
14. 1:13:14 – 1:15:17

    Where to Find Steve

    1. CWChris Williamson1:13:14

       ladies and gentlemen. Steve, I absolutely love your work. I love your demeanor. I think that, I think it, it's very, very good. And no matter how humble you are, uh, I think that you should, uh, you should continue to do the things that you are and take all of the praise because it, it seems very, very well deserved. What should people do beyond, uh, the books, but those as well, if they think that they want to get even more information, if they want to start working with somebody on this, what is it that you guys offer?

    2. SPDr Steve Peters1:13:40

       Um, I mean, they could work things out from the books. As, uh, Path Through the Jungle is much more explicit with exercises to try that hopefully would resonate with people. And it goes through the science, and there's lots of references, 400 plus they can look up. Uh, I, we run a small company and, uh, we do do workshops for teams or individuals. I do a lot of fun stuff as well, so we have a sports conference coming up in October. I'm going on (laughs) the Dracula hunt back to North Yorkshire and Whitby, uh, and we're gonna do a fun... I'm gonna teach at the beginning but set them off. Uh, I did it as a team build for my team. They loved it. So I thought, "Let's open it to the public." So I'm doing that in October. There's a weekend retreat. So it's fun, but it's team build fun. Um, finding Dracula's coffin. And then I do a Christmas conference. So we do do public conferences. We have an annual conference every May where I don't do all the speaking, you'd be (laughs) pleased to know. Uh, my team get up and do it. But we have the team available to do workshops, and they can join what we call The Troop, which is online. It's free. Uh, just go on the Chimp Management website, uh, and I do a once-a-month thing, which at the moment I'm following a path through the jungle to try and, uh, give people something to work on practically. And there's a community there who go on discussion boards, so if people wanna join in and they resonate, they can meet like-minded people, which is what I'm trying to set up, and it's working, I hope.

    3. CWChris Williamson1:15:02

       Fantastic. Steve, I really appreciate you. Thank you.

    4. SPDr Steve Peters1:15:05

       Thank you so much for inviting me.

    5. CWChris Williamson1:15:06

       If you enjoyed that episode, then press here for a selection of the best clips from the podcast over the last few weeks. And don't forget to subscribe.

Episode duration: 1:15:17