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Being Damaged Is Not A Personality Trait - Freya India

Freya India is a writer and journalist focussed on female mental health and modern culture. Are modern women okay? With rising statistics on declining happiness, life satisfaction, and marriage rates, it’s clear that the younger generation is facing serious challenges. What are the biggest issues modern women are dealing with, and how can they start to overcome them? Expect to learn why so many girls are drawn to therapy culture, if girls raised in religious families seem to be doing better than liberal secular girls, why so many people are addicted to social media, how social media is reshaping the fundamental nature of relationships, is Gen Z actually living in an imaginary world, and much more… - 00:00 Why Are So Many Girls Drawn To Therapy Culture? 03:54 Is Therapy Culture Worse For Women? 08:00 Religious Stats On The Younger Generation 11:58 Is Therapy Culture Less Pro Social? 18:53 Problems Of Excessive Self Focus 24:10 Do We Let Our Characteristic Traits Define Us? 36:43 Does Therapy Culture Convince Us We Have A Disorder? 40:27 Why People Are So Addicted To Social Media 46:47 Boyfriends Of Instagram Trend 52:38 Is Social Media Used To Fill A Void? 1:00:51 The Dependency Paradox 1:05:59 The Affect Childhood Has On Our Adult Life 1:10:26 Has Feminism Influenced A Change In Parenting? 1:18:54 Traits That Are Now Regarded As Boss Girl Power 1:22:38 Today's Generational Divide 1:27:16 Where To Find Freya - Get the best bloodwork analysis in America at https://functionhealth.com/modernwisdom Get $350 off the Pod 4 Ultra at https://eightsleep.com/modernwisdom (use code MODERNWISDOM) Get a 20% discount on the best supplements from Momentous at https://livemomentous.com/modernwisdom Get a Free Sample Pack of all LMNT Flavours with your first purchase at https://drinklmnt.com/modernwisdom - Get access to every episode 10 hours before YouTube by subscribing for free on Spotify - https://spoti.fi/2LSimPn or Apple Podcasts - https://apple.co/2MNqIgw Get my free Reading List of 100 life-changing books here - https://chriswillx.com/books/ Try my productivity energy drink Neutonic here - https://neutonic.com/modernwisdom - Get in touch in the comments below or head to... Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/chriswillx Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/chriswillx Email: https://chriswillx.com/contact/

Chris WilliamsonhostFreya Indiaguest
Mar 17, 20251h 27mWatch on YouTube ↗

EVERY SPOKEN WORD

  1. 0:00 – 3:54

    Why Are So Many Girls Drawn To Therapy Culture?

    1. CW

      Why do you think so many girls are drawn to therapy culture?

    2. FI

      Oh, I think it's a lot of things. Um, I do think this is kind of a cliché thing to say now, but I do think therapy culture has replaced religion. Um, and that's not a new thing to say. People have been saying that for a long time, so... Christopher Lash was writing about that in the '70s. Uh, Frank Furedi writes about it really well now. But in recent years, since social media, I would say therapy culture has just escalated, um, to the point where... I think young women don't see it as a worldview. They just see that as kind of life, so they interpret everything through this therapeutic lens. So their lives, their relationships, their emotions. Um, and I think it has elevated to the level of religion. Um, so you think of- you think of all the kind of characteristics of religion. We just mimic them with therapy culture. So instead of praying, we just repeat our, like, positive affirmations. Um, instead of, like, seeking salvation, you'll go on, like, a healing journey. Um, instead of, like, you know, resisting temptation from the devil, you'll reframe your intrusive thoughts. Um, and so I think the young women in particular who are becoming less religious, this kind of therapeutic worldview has completely replaced that void.

    3. CW

      What does a therapeutic worldview consist of? What- what- what does that mean?

    4. FI

      Um, like, seeing problems in your life, kind of pathologizing problems and experiences as something medical rather than, "I'm just experiencing this emotion or kind of age-old anxiety." Now it's become a medical issue. Um, so things like talking in the language of attachment styles, uh, and- and trauma, and losing the language of just ordinary hurt and disappointment, and things like that.

    5. CW

      And for some reason this is giving some kind of solace or comfort?

    6. FI

      Yeah.

    7. CW

      S- s- uh, order being brought out of chaos?

    8. FI

      I think it gives the comfort religion gives, and the consolation of like... Y- like, you see p- young women on TikTok saying things like, um, like they won't pray to God but they'll give a request to the universe-

    9. CW

      Mm.

    10. FI

      ... and, like, have faith in that.

    11. CW

      Yeah.

    12. FI

      And so I think it gives all the comfort of religion, but it takes away the inconvenient parts, so the- any actual demands on you or kind of restrictions on your freedom or anything like that.

    13. CW

      Mm-hmm. Being held to standards of behavior, et cetera.

    14. FI

      Yeah. So it has what women are craving in modern life, I think, which is belonging and security in something and faith in something, but it's- it's a much easier version of religion.

    15. CW

      Slippery religion.

    16. FI

      Yeah. Yeah.

    17. CW

      How many of these girls are in therapy, do you think?

    18. FI

      A lot. Um, th- there was a study recently showing 32% of all 12 to 17-year-olds in America have either had therapy, been on medication, or had some kind of treatment in 2023. Um-

    19. CW

      In a s- over a single year? One-third?

    20. FI

      Yeah, which is insane. And I was talking to someone about that statistic, and they were like, "Oh, that's great. That's amazing," and I was thinking, "That's a bleak statistic." Um, so yeah, I think there's- there's the girls that are in therapy, which is a lot, but then there's also the girls who are just, like, living in therapy culture. So it's just they scroll through Instagram and it's all about attachment styles, trauma. They go on TikTok and it's, like, a trauma-informed therapist telling them, like, red flags they should watch out for and stuff.

    21. CW

      Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

    22. FI

      It's just like... There's the actual therapy, which I'm sure there is- there's useful therapists, but there's also just this culture, which is just the world that they're swimming in.

  2. 3:54 – 8:00

    Is Therapy Culture Worse For Women?

    1. CW

      Yeah, so you're never able to switch it off.

    2. FI

      Yeah.

    3. CW

      I think, um... Alain de Botton was sat in that same seat as you.

    4. FI

      Mm-hmm.

    5. CW

      Big proponent of psychotherapy.

    6. FI

      Mm-hmm.

    7. CW

      I think trained as a psychotherapist himself too, owns A School of Life, which isn't just a YouTube channel but a psychotherapy, uh, facility here in London.

    8. FI

      Yeah.

    9. CW

      And even he, like, the biggest proponent of it, I think would very much say that there is a time for therapizing.

    10. FI

      Yes.

    11. CW

      And then there is a time to not, in the same way as going to the gym. There is a time to train and then there is a time to recover. And I wonder whether... (laughs) One of the criticisms that's common that I put to him was, uh, lots of people online, more old school people, more sort of typical stiff-upper-lip type people-

    12. FI

      Yeah.

    13. CW

      ... would say, uh, "You're not fixing your past's problems. You're dwelling on them."

    14. FI

      Yes.

    15. CW

      "And by dwelling on them, you are, uh, ruminating too much." There is some evidence, I mean a g- good bit of evidence, rumination's not particularly fantastic for you. I'm finding this line between, yeah, mate, we don't wanna deny that bad things happened and never alchemize them or transcend and include them into our life.

    16. FI

      Yeah.

    17. CW

      And then on the other side, we don't wanna wallow in them. Uh, but I suppose if you have the online environment that you exist within, permanently using this language-

    18. FI

      Yeah.

    19. CW

      ... you're permanently having these structures and these thinking patterns reinforced-

    20. FI

      Mm-hmm.

    21. CW

      ... and then it's how you begin to talk to yourself about what happens offline.

    22. FI

      Yes.

    23. CW

      And then you also have, you know, facilitation or medication or conversations with your friends. Further embracing all of that, it's-

    24. FI

      Yeah.

    25. CW

      You're just entrenched in this all the time.

    26. FI

      Yeah, well I used to think, and I think a lot of people think therapy culture's particularly bad for men because it- it kind of has a female approach to problems, and it's about, you know, ruminating and often it's like if you don't have a female response there's something wrong with you. Uh, it's kind of a red flag if you don't go to therapy. But I actually changed my mind on that and I actually think therapy culture is worse for women, because women ruminate more. They co-ruminate more.

    27. CW

      So it's playing into the weakness that they already have?

    28. FI

      Yeah.

    29. CW

      Or the- the disposition?

    30. FI

      Yeah, if you think of an anxious young 14-year-old girl, the worst thing you can tell her is to go further into her own head to get relief, and to think...... more about her problems and to kind of search her life for symptoms. You know, that... If you told me that at 14, i- it's the worst thing I could've heard. Um, so I actually think maybe f- some men do need to do that a little bit more, but the average young girl, uh, needs to kind of cut it out.

  3. 8:00 – 11:58

    Religious Stats On The Younger Generation

    1. FI

    2. CW

      What's that stat that you mentioned there about girls from religious families seeming to do differently well and-

    3. FI

      Yeah.

    4. CW

      ... now 18 to 25-year-old girls are religious at different levels and stuff?

    5. FI

      Yeah, so I think for the first time in history, young women are less religious than young men now.

    6. CW

      Typically, women would have been more-

    7. FI

      Yeah. But among Gen Z, it's men that are going to church way more than women now. Um, and Jonathan Haidt did some research on this showing that... He, like, presented... He looked at a survey of statements, and they were things like, "I have no hope in myself. I don't beli-" Like, really self-disparaging statements, um, and he found that teenagers without religion agreed with them way stronger than teenagers who were religious, and especially who were Conservative. Um, and I think there's a couple of reasons for that. I think one is kind of the external locus of control, so Conservatives tend to have more, um, of an internal locus of control, so they feel more control over things happening in their lives. Also, if you're Conservative teenager, you're more likely to be living with both parents, which I think protects your mental health. Um, and also your parents are more likely to have clearer boundaries with you, um, which I think is actually very useful for anxiety, um, and depression. So there's different explanations for it, but yeah, it's a worry because young women are becoming less religious and their mental health is also tanking, um, so there has to be some link there.

    8. CW

      And maybe therapy culture, therapy language is stepping into the void.

    9. FI

      Yeah.

    10. CW

      And also stopping them from perhaps going back to finding religion.

    11. FI

      Yeah.

    12. CW

      I'm hesitant to say e- therapy culture is getting in the way of religi- isn't, like, religion is necessarily the answer to this, but that it's whatever better alternatives could be, including-

    13. FI

      Yeah.

    14. CW

      ... religion-

    15. FI

      Yeah.

    16. CW

      ... are being precluded by this much sexier, uh-

    17. FI

      Yeah.

    18. CW

      ... newer, more comforting answer to everything that makes no demands on you-

    19. FI

      Yeah.

    20. CW

      ... as a person, that doesn't require you to follow any edicts or, or-

    21. FI

      Yeah.

    22. CW

      ... refrain from any types of behaviors.

    23. FI

      Well, therapy culture, I think it probably is getting aw- in the way in a sense because it's, it's kind of the opposite of religion. So if you think of Christianity, it's about dying to yourself, like, giving up some of yourself, um, to be part of something bigger. Therapy culture is all about going more and more into yourself, discovering yourself and, like, finding your authentic self. It's the complete opposite. So something like Christianity, I think most young women just view it as really restrictive and limiting, and something like therapy culture, or just liberal culture in general, tells them that any limit or constraint is a problem.

    24. CW

      What like?

    25. FI

      Well, just this sense in culture now that any obligation is like an obstacle to your life or your mental health. I think, I think that's just endemic from everywhere we look, um, and it's, yeah, very much the opposite of what religion tells us, which is that through sacrifice you find kind of actual fulfillment.

    26. CW

      Mm.

    27. FI

      And you kind of break free from yourself. Now we're kind of told, whether it's through feminism or therapy culture, whatever girls are scrolling through on TikTok or Instagram, it's like, you know, think... Like, if you think of therapy culture on TikTok, it will say something like, "Don't be a people pleaser. Don't be needy." Um, but these things are kind of the opposite of what Christianity is telling you, which is like, "You should be someone who puts your needs second. It's good to be someone who gives for other people, who depends on people and they-

    28. CW

      Mm.

    29. FI

      ... depend on you." Um, that's not the message girls are growing up with.

  4. 11:58 – 18:53

    Is Therapy Culture Less Pro Social?

    1. FI

    2. CW

      Is therapy culture less prosocial?

    3. FI

      Yes, I think so. Well, again, you're just going inwards, um, and yeah, also I often think of... Again, it's a similarity between-... therapy culture for women and kind of self-optimization stuff for men-

    4. CW

      Mm-hmm.

    5. FI

      ... because it's like, for men, if you go too far that way, other people become obstacles to your, like, ambition and your-

    6. CW

      Mm-hmm.

    7. FI

      ... self-development.

    8. CW

      Mm-hmm.

    9. FI

      Um, so people become, like, distractions and annoyances. It's the same with therapy culture because then, for a young woman who's really into therapy culture, a man is just like an obstacle to her healing and her mental health. Um, so I think if you go too far in it, you can just interpret anyone or anything as a threat to your peace.

    10. CW

      Yes. Yeah, that's very interesting, which is, you know, the best kind of relationships are the ones that make both people in them better-

    11. FI

      Yeah.

    12. CW

      ... that they enter the relationship and stay in the relationship, hopefully, or if they leave, they leave in an improved situation, individually.

    13. FI

      Yeah. Yes. But I don't think, um, that's really getting across to young women. I think, yeah, the... I think the- what the problem is, is you go on something like TikTok, and you have, like, a trauma-informed therapist who might be interesting and informative, but she's now competing in a attention economy. So, she has to create a video which is engaging and extreme, so she has to say, "Five red flags you should avoid in men." And they're, they're things that are just so vague and, um-

    14. CW

      What like?

    15. FI

      Things like... Well, I literally saw one that said, "Gifts and trips is a red flag" because it's love bombing.

    16. CW

      Okay.

    17. FI

      Um, but other things, like, they'll say, you know, "You're in a bad relationship if he makes you feel insecure," for example, "by making a comment about your looks." But it's, it's so vague that it's like, well, anyone's boyfriend could be included in that somehow.

    18. CW

      Mm-hmm.

    19. FI

      Um, but if you add them all together, if you're scrolling through this all day every day, which a lot of girls are, the message is basically like anyone can be toxic and anyone can be a red flag. And-

    20. CW

      Unsafe.

    21. FI

      Yeah. And you'll... Unfortunately, girls do co-ruminate together, and it's really bad for their mental health, so.

    22. CW

      Co-ruminate?

    23. FI

      Yeah. So, dwelling on their problems with friends. Um, which, if you think of something like Re- a Reddit forum, that is just a rumination machine. It's just like, it's there for everybody to analyze together.

    24. CW

      Mm-hmm.

    25. FI

      TikTok is literally somewhere you can ruminate, and then it will start recommending you new disorders and problems.

    26. CW

      (laughs)

    27. FI

      (laughs) So, it's like it's, it's kind of like the inner world of these young girls, but now getting fed more and more to them.

    28. CW

      Mm-hmm.

    29. FI

      Um-

    30. CW

      Other people's inner worlds, which can become-

  5. 18:53 – 24:10

    Problems Of Excessive Self Focus

    1. FI

      eventually.

    2. CW

      What are the problems of excessive self-focus?

    3. FI

      Um, well, I think that... I think it's Jordan Peterson says there's no difference between, like, self-obsession and mental illness, in the sense that it's all focusing too much on yourself. Not to say that it's in your control all the time necessarily, but that is what it is. It's focusing too much on your own problems. Um, and I think, yeah, as I said, girls are particularly vulnerable to it. And I think it... What it does is it blocks real self-development because you can't see where you're going wrong because you have these endless excuses of, for why you're behaving the way you are. Um, so I think a lot of girls think they're doing self-development and self-reflection, but it's actually accidentally like self-obsession-

    4. CW

      Hmm.

    5. FI

      ... because they're, they're thinking, "Oh, you know, I'm analyzing my attachment style, and I'm thinking about my trauma, and I'm, like, doing the work," but there's not much actual self-development going on.

    6. CW

      Work being done.

    7. FI

      Yeah, and I think it, it can kind of be a trap where you think, "I'm working on myself as a person." Um, and the same with the self-optimization stuff. Like, I think you can get so obsessed with stuff like maybe the ice baths and the breath work, that you're not thinking about trying to be a better person.

    8. CW

      Mm-hmm.

    9. FI

      Like, it just becomes-

    10. CW

      There's a couple of traps, uh, for that. Alex Hormozi taught me a really, really good lesson as I started to do, like, little bits of investing and stuff like that. So sometimes a company will say, "Hey, we... We're this interesting company in a world that you maybe know or like. Would you like to p- put some money in and maybe come on as an advisor," or whatever it might be. And I was talking to him, and he said, "How many of these calls are you taking?" I said, "I don't know. You know, maybe had two last week or something." He says, "They're the most dangerous calls that you have because they all feel like work, they all feel like business, and almost none of them result in anything." And it's kind of like that upfront, it feels like you're doing a thing-

    11. FI

      Yeah.

    12. CW

      ... which is more dangerous than not doing anything at all because it acts as a placeholder. It takes up the parking space-

    13. FI

      Yeah.

    14. CW

      ... of what could be work.

    15. FI

      Yeah.

    16. CW

      If you're doing nothing, you would have this big vacancy and you'd go, "Oh, god, I really, I really need to step my game up," or do whatever.

    17. FI

      Yeah.

    18. CW

      Uh, you know, it's one of the problems I think that people have with, uh, scam supplements, uh, with training styles that don't actually do anything-

    19. FI

      Yeah.

    20. CW

      ... that it w- the subtext that they understand is this thing is taking the place of something that would work, and this thing doesn't work-

    21. FI

      Yeah.

    22. CW

      ... which means that you're, you're getting neither of the benefits.

    23. FI

      It's kind of like the highlighter girls who-

    24. CW

      What's that?

    25. FI

      Like, girls who have, like, the perfect highlighters and gel pens for their exam, but they get like a D 'cause they were obsessing over having the perfect setup.

    26. CW

      The system, not the outcome.

    27. FI

      Yeah.

    28. CW

      Yes. Yeah, that is interesting. Um, I suppose this self-pity thing gets wrapped up as empowerment in a way.

    29. FI

      Yeah.

    30. CW

      And that causes girls to suffer.

  6. 24:10 – 36:43

    Do We Let Our Characteristic Traits Define Us?

    1. CW

      Well, all of this stuff is instrumental, right?

    2. FI

      Yeah.

    3. CW

      There are things that you do in order to be able to do a thing.

    4. FI

      Yeah.

    5. CW

      The, the, the mode is not the end itself.

    6. FI

      Yeah.

    7. CW

      And it's the same with the morning routine thing. You know, I...... hold my hands up. I would- I, eh, if not for a slightly different life and a different algorithm, that could've been me, the guy that went- that trended on-

    8. FI

      Mm-hmm.

    9. CW

      ... Twitter. I've said this a couple of times, but I had an absurdly long, very elaborate routine for about probably four years, three or four years. Uh, and my retrospective justification for it is that I had done so little in the way of self-reflection-

    10. FI

      Yeah.

    11. CW

      ... that I had, you know, from 18 to 30 or whatever, I had a- over a decade of catching up to do.

    12. FI

      (laughs)

    13. CW

      And it could've- I could've spaced it out like a normal sane human, and it might have taken some time, or I could've done Navy SEAL Hell Week version, uh, uh-

    14. FI

      Mm-hmm.

    15. CW

      ... very intensely, and, uh, get up on a morning and go for a walk and get back and journal and do breath work and meditate and do yin yoga and then prep my food and- and read-

    16. FI

      Mm-hmm.

    17. CW

      ... and then start my day. And I'm like-

    18. FI

      Yeah.

    19. CW

      ... "How fucking opulent and luxurious and ridiculous and inaccessible," all of these things, I understand. Uh, but I had a lot of low-hanging fruit that I needed to get and then-

    20. FI

      Yeah.

    21. CW

      ... higher-hanging fruit too. Uh, but one thing that I am happy about is that I never confused the mode of improvement for the reason for the improvement.

    22. FI

      Yes.

    23. CW

      And (coughs) very quickly looked at ways to apply that. "All right, okay, I, um, seem to be able to deal with emotional perturbance a bit better now after a few thousand sessions of meditation. Huh. Maybe I should use that-"

    24. FI

      Yeah.

    25. CW

      "... and start pushing myself into different places emotionally."

    26. FI

      Mm-hmm.

    27. CW

      "Uh, wow, I've learned some stuff about how human nature works, or resilience or whatever. Let's see if I can find some situations that I can stress test that and see if it actually works for me." Or, "I've got new mobility because I've been doing yin yoga for fucking forever. Uh, m- maybe I can start doing CrossFit," which I did.

    28. FI

      Yeah.

    29. CW

      Or a different training modality, something else. Um, not confusing instrumental goods for the ends themselves-

    30. FI

      Yeah.

  7. 36:43 – 40:27

    Does Therapy Culture Convince Us We Have A Disorder?

    1. CW

      yeah, I'd- I'd mentioned to you before Lewis Capaldi.

    2. FI

      Mm-hmm.

    3. CW

      Um, there's a great documentary on Netflix called How I'm Feeling Now.

    4. FI

      Hmm.

    5. CW

      Highly recommend you watch it. I think it's-

    6. FI

      Okay.

    7. CW

      ... super pertinent to what you're doing. It'd be great if the book too.

    8. FI

      Yeah.

    9. CW

      Uh, so you have this guy who ... Lots and lots of success, and the success causes him to, uh, develop a ... He must have had a genetic predisposition for Tourette's. I don't know what ... Tourette's, you can't catch it, I don't think.

    10. FI

      Mm-hmm.

    11. CW

      So he must have had this predisposition and the pressure that he puts on himself-

    12. FI

      Yeah.

    13. CW

      ... and it's coming from outside too. And the story he tells himself and the rumination, uh, causes his mental health to decline to the point where he's got this sort of tic.

    14. FI

      Yeah.

    15. CW

      And his shoulder's sort of ... He's always doing this. His like, whole body is contorting. And, uh, I think maybe it's two years in a row now, at least one year at Glastonbury, he was ... He stopped singing. He came out on stage, began singing, and then partway through the song, was unable to continue. Had to get the audience to help. And that happened at a show at The O2, I think, uh, which is in the documentary, and then they tried to bring this documentary into land at the end of '22 or '23 or whatever. It's like, "And he took six weeks off and started doing yoga and stopped eating McDonald's, and look at him now." It's like-

    16. FI

      Mm-hmm.

    17. CW

      And then the updates since then are sad. That, uh, guy under an awful lot of pressure, with a beautiful voice, with really, really wonderful stories to tell, uh, that make people feel things, feeling so much and being unable to handle it to the point where the very art form that he was built to do, he's unable to do onstage in front of people.

    18. FI

      So has he, like, backed away from singing as a result?

    19. CW

      I haven't checked in.

    20. FI

      Mm-hmm.

    21. CW

      But the last that I saw was this summer, there was some festival thing, I think, that he was at that he had some trouble on stage again.

    22. FI

      Yeah.

    23. CW

      I mean, maybe he had a bug or whatever, but it seems unlikely. It seems like it was probably the same challenge that he's been dealing with since the documentary. And, um ... Yeah, that kind of got me thinking about the mental health thing affecting everybody all the way up.

    24. FI

      Yeah.

    25. CW

      Uh, you know, there's not really any hiding from it. And the way that he goes about it, you know, he's very self-deprecating.

    26. FI

      Mm-hmm.

    27. CW

      But he does not ... He's- he's relieved when he gets a diagnosis in-

    28. FI

      Yeah.

    29. CW

      ... the documentary. You know, he finally ... They say, "Turns out I've got Tourette's." Uh-

    30. FI

      Yeah.

  8. 40:27 – 46:47

    Why People Are So Addicted To Social Media

    1. CW

      Uh, is there a new story about why people are so addicted to social media? Is there any more that-

    2. FI

      Um-

    3. CW

      ... you've come to think about?

    4. FI

      Yeah, well, I ... When I started writing, I was writing about addiction to social media and trends and stuff and kind of, um, wondering why that was happening. And then I've been trying to kind of trace it back to think, um, what is the actual need that's not being met here? So, one of them, um ... I was looking at all this at- attachment style stuff and, like, the dating gurus, how popular, like, relationship advice is on TikTok and stuff. Um, and I was thinking, is this because young people don't have adults giving them guidance about relationships? So now they go and watch an influencer who's an attachment expert, um, because parents and families aren't getting as involved in giving advice about relationships. Um, so things like that. There's a lot of trends where I think you can trace it back to adults have stepped away from giving some form of guidance. Um, so you see it with, like, relationship stuff on TikTok and also the desperate search for, obviously, community and belonging to something is coming from a real pain of not having any community in real life. Like, I had loads of people ... When I started writing about social media, loads of people would say to me, "Oh, but, you know, young people need social media because it's like a lifeline. Like, they have their online communities and stuff." And I'm like, "That is not a benefit of social media." Like, that's just an absolute indictment of where we are in modern li- like, why is their community a Reddit forum? Um, so we can talk about social media addiction, but I think you have to kind of strip it back to what ... Why young people are so obsessed with it and what is missing in their actual life.

    5. CW

      What is everyone searching for-

    6. FI

      Yeah.

    7. CW

      ... or missing?

    8. FI

      Yeah, because when you meet people who aren't on social media or don't have, like, ridiculously high screen times, um, they usually have a lot of their needs met in the real world, which just sounds like an obvious thing to say, but ...It's true, and I think the more you find yourself in a fulfilling relationship or you're happy with your job, you don't feel as much as a, of a pull to scroll endlessly through TikTok all day. Um, so the fact that young people are spending like six hours a day on their phones is, is not just because social media is addictive. It's because there's nothing more addictive in their life or like a reason to stop scrolling through it.

    9. CW

      Mm.

    10. FI

      Um, and so I think sometimes I can get caught in the trap of like complaining about social media, whereas social media is just filling the gap of whatever was stripped away before.

    11. CW

      Hmm. Yeah, it's not necessarily that there's even nothing more addicting. There's nothing more compelling.

    12. FI

      Yeah.

    13. CW

      The... Wh- what else, what else is there that's as fun to do-

    14. FI

      Yeah.

    15. CW

      ... that's, that, uh, offers everybody the same, uh... Yeah, I mean, you know, I left my old life of nightlife, uh, three years ago-ish, and, um, that kind of felt a little bit like exiting Bitcoin at 100K or something and being like, "Well, that was kind of selling at the top," because there's some crazy stat about how by 2036 there'll be no nightclubs left in the UK.

    16. FI

      Really?

    17. CW

      None. Yeah, so there, I think it's one a, one a day or one a week or something is closing at the moment-

    18. FI

      Wow.

    19. CW

      ... across the UK, just that night clubs are not only competing with brunch and with restaurants and with lane seven and with top flight darts-

    20. FI

      Yeah.

    21. CW

      ... and with those ball pit fucking places where people get to take selfies. It's not just competing with other in-person events-

    22. FI

      Yeah.

    23. CW

      ... and other, uh, community based events, pickleball or whatever. It's competing with Netflix, Amazon Prime.

    24. FI

      Is it 'cause everyone's autistic and no one's going clubbing? (laughs)

    25. CW

      The answer-

    26. FI

      Yeah.

    27. CW

      ... to every question is either, it's only one of two things, too much or too little autism, and I vote that it's too little and we need more. But yes.

    28. FI

      Yeah.

    29. CW

      I think, um, you s- you must have seen this trend the other day, this like, uh, like slug life thing where people just want, they, "I'm not going out, I don't want to-"

    30. FI

      Yeah.

  9. 46:47 – 52:38

    Boyfriends Of Instagram Trend

    1. CW

      I guess even relationships have been infected by social media. The boyfriends of Instagram trend has been around for a while.

    2. FI

      Mm-hmm.

    3. CW

      But, uh, has maybe escalated a little bit.

    4. FI

      Well, have you seen like... I read an article the other day that made me wanna kill myself. It was about, it was about like soft launching your boyfriend on Instagram.

    5. CW

      Please tell me more.

    6. FI

      So it was about telling a... So this young woman wondering how should you announce to your followers, like not influencers, like I'm talking ordinary young women.

    7. CW

      Mm-hmm.

    8. FI

      How should you announce your boyfriend? Should you do a soft launch where it's just like his arm?

    9. CW

      (laughs)

    10. FI

      Or should you do like a full reveal?

    11. CW

      (laughs)

    12. FI

      But it's like, but it's kind of messed up because it's like this is like introducing a brand deal or something. (laughs) Um, like we're literally viewing our partners like products.

    13. CW

      Hmm.

    14. FI

      Like...

    15. CW

      Yeah. How do we, how does this play in the optics of public life?

    16. FI

      Yeah. Someone said to me the other day, or they commented on my Substack article, like a relationship is now just a brand collaboration, like two personal brands coming together-

    17. CW

      Wow. That's good.

    18. FI

      ... and then posting it online.

    19. CW

      That's really good.

    20. FI

      Yeah.

    21. CW

      Soft launching. Well, I've de- I've seen people talk about the hard launch, which is just a couple photo that happens-

    22. FI

      Yeah.

    23. CW

      ... out of nowhere.

    24. FI

      Yeah. Well so you have all of that. You have like how do you manage the relationship on social media, but then you also have how social media affects the relationship. So like the boyfriends of Instagram thing. Like it's kind of funny that boyfriends, you know, when you see like a guy literally on the floor trying to get a good angle of the girl. (laughs)

    25. CW

      There was a, a, I went to Gili T in, uh, Bali.

    26. FI

      Mm-hmm.

    27. CW

      It's one of these little islands. About five years ago.And there's a famous beach club that's got a swing sort of out in the water and it's gorgeous. The sun sets, because it's so close to the equator, the sun sets in the summer at 6:30 PM, and in the winter at 6:00 PM.

    28. FI

      Yeah.

    29. CW

      So, 12 hours of daylight and it just sh- wobbles a little bit like that.

    30. FI

      Mm-hmm.

  10. 52:38 – 1:00:51

    Is Social Media Used To Fill A Void?

    1. FI

    2. CW

      What do you make of the contribution of family breakdown to this? Of that, you mentioned before about that sort of lack of guidance, people looking for a little bit of guidance.

    3. FI

      Yeah.

    4. CW

      Um, maybe filling the void with entertainment that typically would've been taken up by family. What-

    5. FI

      Yeah.

    6. CW

      ... what role does family breakdown have here?

    7. FI

      I think it's linked to what I was saying about, yeah, looking for relationship guidance. It's like, um, well, you look at something like mental health TikTok, um, people are sharing, like, their really deep trauma and turmoil and problems, um, and you can't help but look at it and think, "Are you close to your family?" Like, th- this is the kind of thing that you talk about with your family, it's what your family is there for, and now you're telling strangers on TikToK. Um, and then you look at the statistics of the amount of Gen Z who aren't living with both their mother and father. I think it's, uh, I think in the UK it's over half of children by 14 don't live with their mum and dad. Um, and so they don't have the feeling of belonging at home, and then you stretch that out to they don't have any sense of community. A community as a Reddit forum or Instagram. Like, I, growing up, had no sense of what a local community is or, like, neighbors knowing each other. It's just, it's really foreign to me.

    8. CW

      Mm.

    9. FI

      And I think a lot of Gen Z, they don't have a conception of it beyond, like, an online community or, like, the LGBT community or something. That is the limit of community they know. So their family falls apart, there's nothing really to catch them, there's no neighborhood of adults who are there. Um, then you add to that they're becoming less religious. They don't feel that they belong to anything bigger than that.

    10. CW

      Mm.

    11. FI

      They have no faith in anything bigger. Um, and so the feeling of loneliness is just so intense. Um, and I was writing recently about how I think that actually one of the biggest drivers of behavior we see among Gen Z is this abandonment fear and feeling-Um, because their families fell apart, because they don't have community, because they don't belong to anything bigger, um, they feel constantly alone. And if you look at the kind of symptoms of abandonment, if you look at, like, attachment theory, like, real attachment theory, not the TikToks but the-

    12. CW

      Mm-hmm.

    13. FI

      ... like, Mary Ainsworth studies and everything, um, it shows, like, people who are abandoned, they're really hypersensitive to criticism, they have very low body image and self-esteem. Um, all of the kind of caricature of Gen Z, all of the traits are, like, to do with this feeling of not belonging anywhere. Um, so not, not to say that it explains everything, but I think families breaking down and not having a sense of belonging really messes people up, and I think a lot of Gen Z are kind of carrying that around and then looking for it in places so they're, obviously they're gonna spend hours on TikTok where people are talking to them and talking about their problems, because they don't have anything resembling that in real life. Um, and so yeah, I think a lot of the things we kind of laugh at young people for as being kind of narcissistic and, um, I guess selfish and kind of we cringe at them having these crazy screen times.

    14. CW

      Mm-hmm.

    15. FI

      It's like, what else is there?

    16. CW

      Yeah. Is there a lack of moral direction or adult guidance or something?

    17. FI

      Yeah, I think, um, I think in the modern world, like, adults, they view everything as, like, imposing on their children, so we, we kind of became suspicious of anyone who's authoritative 'cause we think they're being controlling-

    18. CW

      Mm-hmm.

    19. FI

      ... or, like, old-fashioned.

    20. CW

      Mm-hmm.

    21. FI

      So adults kind of politely stepped back and kind of allowed children just to become themselves and act the way they want, and-

    22. CW

      Sounds virtuous.

    23. FI

      Yeah. And, you know, there's obviously an element of that that's important in parenting, um, but I think what happened is parents stepped back, so they just became like our best friends. Um, then religion retreated away from public life, then communities broke down, um, neighbors stopped knowing each other, and then if you're an anxious young person, uh, there's no one there, and we got rid of anything that was, like, more substantial guidance. So I think if you think of therapy culture today, a lot of people think, oh, if you're an anxious young person, you have more advice than ever, like, you have all this guidance. But I actually think modern culture has very little to say to anxious young people-

    24. CW

      Mm-hmm.

    25. FI

      ... because we got rid of anything more substantial because we thought it was judgmental, so you can't tell someone how to live their life or what to do. Uh, we got rid of anything to do with God or religion because that was superstitious. We stopped appealing to moral character and telling them they should improve themselves and be better because that's also judgmental, and, you know, claiming that there's a right and wrong. And all that we have left is, like, these endless empty, like, platitudes of be yourself, you do you, you know best, you know, adults telling that to young people who I think are craving some direction. Like, there's no clear milestones to adulthood anymore to follow, and so they look to the adults, and the adults are saying, "You know best." Um, and of course you feel anxious. The an- the anxiety gets worse.

    26. CW

      That lack of guidance is, I don't know, I, I, I, the equivalent for the guys is pick your favorite podcaster or YouTuber or fitness body builder of choice-

    27. FI

      Mm-hmm.

    28. CW

      ... and looking up to that, okay, well, it's the missing patriarch that I-

    29. FI

      Yeah.

    30. CW

      ... didn't have or didn't have along enough or didn't understand this world, and I'm going to surrogate the-

  11. 1:00:51 – 1:05:59

    The Dependency Paradox

    1. CW

      You had this breakdown. Uh, "One of the main causes of unhappiness in the modern world is a culture that presents other people as obstacles. Heal faster alone, work better alone, find freedom alone. It's such a lie. Loneliness is not empowerment." Is loneliness, uh, pedestalized by Gen Z TikTok?

    2. FI

      Yeah. I think, again, from all different angles. So it's like, the mental health stuff obviously you will feel better alone in some ways because someone... You don't have someone challenging you.

    3. CW

      Mm.

    4. FI

      You know, if you do actually have problems from your childhood, um, to do with, say, your parents... I don't want to say an attachment problem, but... W- uh, it is an attachment problem, just the wording has been completely ruined. But if you do have that, you kind of need to be with someone to work on it. Because if you're single, you're gonna feel great, 'cause there's no one kind of triggering you and making you feel anxious and abandoned. Um, so you do need someone in your life in, in that scenario. Um, so yeah, loneliness then does seem like it's extremely attractive because you feel better when you're alone. The same with the productivity stuff. I think it's just the message that's missing for both young women and young men is like, it's actually okay to depend on someone and to need other people. Like, humans have always needed other people, and defined themselves by their ties and obligations to other people. And now we're kind of like, "No, you can, you can be self-sufficient enough, and driven enough, and healed enough that you're okay alone." And I think that's really quite a strong message for young y- young women here, which is like, "The worst thing you can be is needy."

    5. CW

      Mm.

    6. FI

      "Like, do not ever need someone. And, and the worst situation for you is to end up with a guy that you need." Like, that's just... You need to avoid that at all costs. And it's, it's a really sad message because it's like, is that not love, to need someone?

    7. CW

      Mm.

    8. FI

      And they need you. And it's kind of a beautiful thing, um, to rely on someone and have someone who's dependent on you. And actually, a lot of the actual attachment research shows that... Have you heard of, like, the dependency paradox?

    9. CW

      Tell me.

    10. FI

      Um, that couples who are more dependent on each other become more independent in their lives. So there was, like, studies showing that, um... I think they got couples to do, like, games or puzzles, and then they had to fill out a survey of, you know, "How much do you respond to your partner's needs?" Um, basically, "How dependent are you on each other?" And the ones that were more dependent didn't want to hear, like, I think it was the clues or the answers from their partner. They wanted to do it independently.

    11. CW

      Mm.

    12. FI

      And then they followed up and they found that the w- the couples more dependent on each other had met their independent goals six months down the line.

    13. CW

      Why do you think that is? What's the proposed mechanism?

    14. FI

      Because it's, it's like the original Mary Ainsworth experiments where the caregiver leaves and they kind of measure how the child responds. You need, like, a stable, secure relationship to feel confident to go and explore the world.

    15. CW

      Mm. Mm.

    16. FI

      You need to have, like, something to hold onto to step off.

    17. CW

      Mm.

    18. FI

      Um-

    19. CW

      Chaos in both domains is scary.

    20. FI

      Yeah. Y- you need, like, something to fall back on. And I think that's a big reason why Gen Z are incredibly, uh, risk-averse and not resilient, is because we don't actually have a foundation to fall back on. So if your parents s- are divorced, um, and you don't feel that sense of belonging, you're not gonna step off into the chaos of the world. You're gonna hold back, and you're gonna find relationships threatening. You're gonna find words traumatic. You're gonna be scared by it because the ground is, like, crumbling beneath you, so you can't step off it. Um...

    21. CW

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  12. 1:05:59 – 1:10:26

    The Affect Childhood Has On Our Adult Life

    1. CW

      What have you learned? It seems like you've done a good bit of work on the attachment stuff-

    2. FI

      Yeah.

    3. CW

      ... at least in terms of research. What have you learned about what's, uh, real and what's bunk from that?

    4. FI

      Well, I think, I think it's real that obviously your childhood impacts your adult life. I think that's just plain to see. Um, and I think it's real that you can kind of play that out in relationships that aren't t- you know. So you, however your parents responded to you, you'll then take that into an adult relationship. That seems very obvious. But I think where people go wrong now is they forget that... Like, in the original, um, attachment, uh, experiments and, and the book Attached, it's quite clear that it's, it's not a bad thing to d- depend on someone. And it's, it's not a bad thing to be attached. Like, we are wired to be that way.... whereas I think now where it's going online is, like, um, you have a problem if you're attached. Like, if you, if you're a young woman who kind of dreams of having a romantic relationship and really wants to depend on someone, now we view you as, like, weak. That- that there's something wrong with you if that's your ultimate goal, because we've had it drilled in so much that dependence is a problem. Um, and so you see all these people online saying things like, "Oh, you know, I'm anxiously attached because when my partner feels sad, I also feel sad." And it's like, isn't that just like loving someone? You know, you are affected by their emotions. Or they'll say things again like, "Oh, um, I always put their needs first, so can you train me out of being, like, a people pleaser?" And it's like, we used to just call that love and, you know, that was a trait that we treasured in people, people who put their partner's needs first.

    5. CW

      Mm.

    6. FI

      And obviously that can go too far, but I think the problem is now we only pathologize dependence, and we glamorize independence.

    7. CW

      Mm.

    8. FI

      And we never say, yeah, that being dependent on someone, having a long-term relationship doesn't mean that you lose yourself. You can actually find yourself through that. Um, but I think girls in particular, young women in particular, have just been told, yeah, the worst thing in your life is to need someone.

    9. CW

      Do Gen Z have a lot of abandonment issues in that way?

    10. FI

      Yeah. I think, I think that's where it comes from. And I, that's why it's especially tragic, because you have a lot of young women, for example, whose families fell apart, and then they grew up thinking, "Well, I just want to have that myself. I wanna have a loving relationship and a family." And then they kind of get told, whether it's through therapy culture or some of the feminist stuff online, you- you kind of implicitly get told, um, that's a problem. Like, if you... Again, if- if your dream is to depend on someone, you should work on yourself. "You need to work on your self-love. You need to believe in yourself more. You need to be healed alone." And, um, you think of, like, a normal thinking, feeling young girl, of course she wants to be in a romantic relationship and of course she wants to depend on someone in some way. It's completely natural. Um, but I think you have young women thinking, "Oh, I need to get to a position where I'm confident, completely confident alone, I'm healed alone, I don't have any anxiety. Um, then I can allow a partner in." But I don't see that as the way that people operate. Um-

    11. CW

      Mm.

    12. FI

      ... and I think there's a lot of girls now punishing themselves for being emotional and sensitive and wanting a partner and, and wanting to depend on someone, because now the, the image of a strong, independent woman is, is someone who doesn't depend on anyone and who doesn't get emotional, doesn't get jealous, doesn't care. And so you, you also have two contradictory messages, because you have therapy culture saying to girls, "Open up more and more about your problems, you know, be more emotional, um, tell everyone how you feel," but then you also have, "Strong, independent women don't care. You know, they never get emotional. And if they do get emotional, it's trauma or an attachment issue." And it's like, that's a really cruel thing to teach-

    13. CW

      Ah.

    14. FI

      ... emotional young girls, and confusing, because it's like, of course they feel that way because they're human. But now they're being told that that's, yeah, a medical issue or something that they should heal.

  13. 1:10:26 – 1:18:54

    Has Feminism Influenced A Change In Parenting?

    1. FI

    2. CW

      I saw you tweet, "Kids as young as nine are addicted to porn. Girls as young as 13 are using fake IDs to post explicit content on OnlyFans. A third of those selling nudes on Twitter are under the age of 18."

    3. FI

      Yep.

    4. CW

      Can you unpack that, please?

    5. FI

      Well, I think that's, again, a lack of adults. (laughs)

    6. CW

      (laughs)

    7. FI

      Um, stepping in. Um, I have this theory I've been thinking about of, like, everyone just accepts now that, that parents are overprotective, so there's, like, the helicopter parenting and the coddling-

    8. CW

      Mm-hmm. Snowplow. Yep.

    9. FI

      ... of Gen Z. But I think, like, parents are weirdly... They're not protective enough, but they're also coddling. So they're like, coddle their children but not put up proper boundaries or guard r- There's, like, no rules.

    10. CW

      Mm.

    11. FI

      Um, but they're s- over-involved at the same time.

    12. CW

      Over-bearing in all the wrong areas and-

    13. FI

      Yeah.

    14. CW

      ... totally absent in all of the wrong ones as well.

    15. FI

      Yeah. So now it's like the only danger is, like, physical danger. It's injury. So, parents protect from injury, but they don't protect from something like their daughters being online and posting, tr- trying to get on OnlyFans. I mean, Jonathan Haidt talks about it when he says kids are overprotective in the real world and under-protected online.

    16. CW

      Mm.

    17. FI

      But I think it's slightly more than that, 'cause I don't think parents are totally protective in the real world. Because they, again, they've also, I think, um, kind of internalized this messaging of, "I shouldn't get involved, you know, it's not my place." You know, you think of dads now, I think dads are less protective than they've ever been because they, they can't care about what their daughter wears or where she goes or who she dates because that would be backward. You know, it's her right to do that. But then you look around and you see girls doing that. You see, um, girls, like, selling themselves online to strangers. And I think what has acc- accidentally happened is feminism pushed this idea of, like, girls and boys are just as strong as each other, and then that led to people thinking, "Oh, so they don't need, girls don't need extra protection," which killed chivalry but also killed fathers actually protecting girls.

    18. CW

      Mm.

    19. FI

      Um, because the problem is not, like, women are weak. It's that girls are vulnerable. But now we think, "Oh, we should all step back, let girls do what they want."

    20. CW

      Mm.

    21. FI

      Um, respect their right.

    22. CW

      A lot of baby went out with bathwater.

    23. FI

      Yeah. And now you see-

    24. CW

      A lot of chivalry went out with patriarchy.

    25. FI

      Yeah. Well, we, we killed-Good authority. We just killed all authority. And so now you have young women, like, demanding that their universities protect them and demanding that the government step in and, like, staring at someone becomes harassment on the tube because they don't have... We degraded the authority of men they trust-

    26. CW

      Mm.

    27. FI

      Like, good men and hopefully, like, their fathers and brothers. Um, we just said, "Oh, all kind of protection is patronizing and we don't need it." But then you leave girls completely vulnerable and looking coddled and loved but actually completely unprotected.

    28. CW

      There was a great tweet I saw about, um, telling men, telling all men to stop being so pushy doesn't work, because the men who don't need to hear it will take it to heart. And the ones who do need to hear it aren't going to listen.

    29. FI

      Yeah. Yeah, I mean, it... I- I can't remember where it was, but there was this, like, scheme, um, some young women ran on a train where they had these cards, I don't know if you saw it, where it said, like, it said, like, "I'm being harassed right now." Where you hand it to someone. And so you could go into, I think it was, like, the tube station, you could go in and ask for the cards. And yeah, it's like-

    30. CW

      Cards-a.

  14. 1:18:54 – 1:22:38

    Traits That Are Now Regarded As Boss Girl Power

    1. CW

      Why is it that pretty much all of the examples of toxic masculinity from the past-

    2. FI

      Mm-hmm.

    3. CW

      ... promiscuity, sexual entitlement, hyper-independence, are all traits that are now regarded as-... boss girl-

    4. FI

      Yeah.

    5. CW

      ... feminist power?

    6. FI

      I don't know. I think it might be, like, a revenge thing. (laughs) Um, like, I think, I think young women react to the very worst traits of some men by thinking, "I'll just do it back, and that will give me the power." So, they're like-

    7. CW

      Mm.

    8. FI

      Uh, maybe they've had a string of relationships where the guy has kind of slept with them and then left or something, and then they think, "Yeah, I'll just do that to the next guy," or, um, you know, they look at the men doing that and think, "Well, they seem very confident and happy, so that's, that's the way to go." Um, I think it's like a defense mechanism of some kind.

    9. CW

      Mm.

    10. FI

      And also, I think they're probably also the traits that get you popularity online, so if you look at Tana Mongeau or some of these influencers, uh, they are promiscuous. They're quite masculine. They're quite aggressive in their speech, because people who talk assertively and in extreme ways will just suit the algorithm, you know? If you're like a reserved, timid young girl, you're not gonna be the top influencer on Instagram.

    11. CW

      Mm.

    12. FI

      So, I think those traits get rewarded, and then they're what girls are scrolling through all day every day, and they're like, "Oh, my favorite influencer is really, like, vulgar and promiscuous, and she's super assertive and aggressive."

    13. CW

      That's the path to success.

    14. FI

      Yeah, and that's... Again, that's the model of, like, the healed, confident woman who's not held back by negative emotion or worry or jealousy or any of these things.

    15. CW

      Mm, assertiveness is confused for self-assuredness or wholeness-

    16. FI

      Yeah.

    17. CW

      ... completeness, fixedness.

    18. FI

      Well, also, promiscuity is like... Well, I often think now, if you're like a reserved young woman who's modest, you're now shamed. Maybe not explicitly, but implicitly, people will think there's something wrong with you, because they'll be like, "Oh, no, you are beautiful. You shouldn't be so, like, shy about guys, you know? You shouldn't worry about sex, you know? It's fine." Like, people will reassure her now, as to, like... Like, look at her as if she has a problem that needs healing, rather than she just is modest. Um, and I think that's what tends to happen, is you look at promiscuity become so popular and normalized, and then we stigmatize the girls that aren't interested in that or aren't that way. Um, so yeah. I think if, I think if you are a young woman now who's, who holds back in that way, it's kind of like if you're introverted and people come up to you and say, "What's wrong? You should speak more," and it's just like, sometimes it's just who you are.

    19. CW

      Mm.

    20. FI

      Um, so I think it's the incentives again. You're almost punished socially if you're modest and shy and, and not super assertive and masculine, because people think you've got your, like, healing work to do. You need to become more confident and, like-

    21. CW

      Mm.

    22. FI

      ... sexual and, like, get rid of all your reservations and, like, repression. People think you're just, like, a repressed person rather than-

    23. CW

      That everybody should be Tana Mongeau, whatever she's called.

    24. FI

      Yeah, like she's, she's like released herself of all her kind of traumas and burdens.

Episode duration: 1:27:47

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