Build More Muscle, Live Longer & Look Amazing - Dr Gabrielle Lyon

Chris Williamson 0:00 You say the quality of your life is a direct correlation to your muscle health. Why?

Dr Gabrielle Lyon 0:06 Because muscle is the organ of longevity, and your capacity to show up and execute anything and everything that you want in your life depends on your strength. And in order to build physical strength, it requires mental strength. It requires fortitude. It requires resiliency. And right now, we have this conversation about longevity and health span. What does that actually mean? That actually relates to the tangible plasticity of skeletal muscle. And by the way, you know, we were kind of joking around, podcasters in Austin, but when you think about skeletal muscle, you often think about bro science. You think about the big dudes. Skeletal muscle is so much more than that, and in fact, the health of your life depends on the health and the quality of your tissue.

Chris Williamson 0:54 Interesting. Obviously, the by-product of building muscle, uh, discipline, resilience, being able to overcome hard things, consistency, motivation, so on and so forth, somebody quite easily could say, "Well, I get that with distance running. I get that with rowing. I get that with doing yoga." What is it specifically about muscle building that is important for longevity?

Dr Gabrielle Lyon 1:21 Well, when you think about skeletal muscle, there's, there's a couple of things that you have to think about. Skeletal muscle is the primary site for glucose disposal. Right now, if you look at the CDC, and they'll give you a list of causes of death, it'll put, uh, cardiovascular disease, it'll put cancer, it'll put diabetes. It won't put obesity on there, and it won't put lack of skeletal muscle. It'll also have Alzheimer's. What you'll see is that these diseases, at the root, all have its place in skeletal muscle, first and foremost. So if you care about any of the top eight or nine causes of death, you have to care about skeletal muscle. Now, what's the next level to that? Could endurance running be great? Yes, it's amazing. Is yoga great? Sure, absolutely. You have to also train for strength and train for life. Having skeletal muscle is like your body armor. We've all had friends, family members that have gotten sick. If they were amazing in endurance training, but had very little skeletal muscle, what is going to protect them in those moments of catabolic crisis? And we don't age, Chris, we don't age linearly. It's not as if there's this slow decline. What happens is there's an insult, and then there is a rapid decline, and then depending on your capacity to step back up is based on your ability to have healthy skeletal muscle, in part. It's called catabolic crisis.

Chris Williamson 2:48 What, what do you mean when you say insult or catabolic crisis?

Dr Gabrielle Lyon 2:51 So for example, if you fall and you're injured or you get sick and you have pneumonia for a week, when you're younger, your ability to get back up to baseline to be more physically active is more flexible. As you age, we've all seen it. As you age, an individual, um, grandmother breaks a hip. She'll never be able to rise back up to her baseline level of functioning. Potentially she could, but as she gets older, the ability to return to a more youthful baseline decreases, and that has to be trained for. You have to be able to be strong. You do have to be able to build muscle, and skeletal muscle is interesting. The skeletal muscle is a nutrient-sensing organ. Skeletal muscle is an organ system. It's a nutrient-sensing organ system that senses the quality of the diet, and specifically these amino acids, specifically leucine. I'm sure we'll get into it, but that efficiency goes down as we age. If you train and eat and do the things you did in your youth, you're not evolving. Um, you know, there's, you know, mental evolution. There's all kind of more esoteric evolution, but you also have to keep up with an evolving physiological process and a biological process, and that's where focusing on hypertrophy and strength... Obviously, they're not the same, but focusing on skeletal muscle as a tissue as it relates to medicine is paramount.

Chris Williamson 4:17 So I understand definitely from the literal physical body armor perspective, somebody falls, if they have more muscle that is supporting around their joints, it means that there's going to be less atrophy. It means they're going to be able to get back to function more quickly. But you went through this whole litany of other things like Alzheimer's, Parkinson's, dementia, uh, you know, heart disease. Talk to me about the mechanism of what having skeletal muscle is doing that helps to mitigate the onset of that or delay it.

Dr Gabrielle Lyon 4:49 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 4:49 What, what, what's skeletal muscle doing to our health span?

Dr Gabrielle Lyon 4:52 Well, can I start with, uh, just a very short story, a very short story to bring the listener in? Because they're thinking, "Dude, Chris is jacked. He's bringing in these tough big dudes talking about muscle." You've had my friends-

Chris Williamson 5:04 That's correct. Everyone is thinking that.

Dr Gabrielle Lyon 5:05 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 5:05 Everyone that's listening, they can't stop thinking it. They try-

Dr Gabrielle Lyon 5:08 They, they can't. Look at you. They can't.

Chris Williamson 5:09 ... and they can't, can't.

Dr Gabrielle Lyon 5:10 You've had Stan Efferding. You've had Chris Blomstedt, people that I just know and love. Let's talk about muscle from a different perspective, and I promise I'll make the story short. I did, um, my fellowship in nutritional sciences and geriatrics, and I did that in, uh, at Wash U. For those, uh, the listeners that don't know, it's a very rigorous program. It's considered the Harvard of the Midwest. It's very challenging. And I actually didn't want to do geriatric medicine. The deal was, in order for me to study nutritional sciences and obesity medicine, I had to get funded. And the way that I was gonna get funded was through geriatric training. So during the day, I was working with individuals that were over the age of 65, and they were, the majority, not healthy. Um, on the Alzheimer's unit, in nursing homes, end of life, palliative care, it gets extremely depressing when you're seeing 30 patients a day, talking to their families about what their wishes are, et cetera, right? And I think any doctor would attest to that.... and then early mornings, you know, when you're a fellow you, uh, have very minimal quality of life, especially if you're a combined research fellow. Waking up at 4:00 in the morning, doing fat and muscle biopsies, and then in the evening doing cognitive testing. Um, and I fell in love with one of the participants, and she was in her mid-50s, a mom of three, and she was like so many women that we know. She always put herself last. She yo-yo dieted, Weight Watchers, you name it. She did everything, every single thing that we told her was the right thing to do. I imaged her brain, and her brain looked like the beginning of an Alzheimer's brain. And I realized that we failed her. We failed her. The medical community had failed her. And I couldn't stop thinking about it. I needed to find a solution that how was it that we were giving this information, um, move more, eat less, follow a food guide pyramid, how were we not getting this together? What is happening? And then I started thinking as I'm rounding in the nursing homes and I'm seeing these patients and I'm seeing them die and I'm watching kind of this spectrum, and I realized that it wasn't that they were overfat. It was that they were under-muscled, and that we have been trying to fix the wrong paradigm for the last 50 years. And that the diseases and the disease process that I was seeing in, we'll call her Betty, was beginning in her 30s. Like, this began in her 30s. And this constant iteration and plethora of information of focusing on what we have to lose, the "obesity epidemic." It's not an obesity epidemic. Obesity is a symptom of unhealthy skeletal muscle. Obesity, and like you mentioned, Alzheimer's, the things that ride along with it have roots in skeletal muscle decades and decades before they become an issue. And I wanted to frame that for you because that's what's critical to understand. We have a whole population focused on what they have to lose. We have over 40% of the population focused on the wrong thing. We are setting themselves, th- we are setting them up for failure. It's not an obesity problem. Skeletal muscle is at the core. Skeletal muscle, skeletal muscle insulin resistance. There's some great data, um, that one of the hallmark studies came out of Yale looking at 18-year-old ind- college students that had no outward signs of insulin resistance. When they became sedentary, pathology in skeletal muscle started. Skeletal muscle is a primary site for glucose disposal. You know, I know that we've got a lot of mutual friends. When they're running and doing a, a million miles, skeletal muscle, where they're gonna put their carbohydrates is, it's gonna be stored as glycogen in skeletal muscle. People talk all about carbohydrates. Nutrition is more electric than probably religion. Skeletal muscle is, again, this site of carbohydrate disposal. It is a site of fatty acid oxidation. We have 40 million people on statins. Why not focus on the health of skeletal muscle prior? We have, um, a mitochondrial density in skeletal muscle. When skeletal muscle contracts, it releases myokines. Skeletal muscle is an endocrine organ system, interfaces with brain for neurogenesis, you name it. Skeletal muscle interfaces with the immune system, uh, and in multiple different ways. It releases interleukin-6, which is a myokine, the most famous one. Also releases glutamine. Contracting skeletal muscle releases glutamine, which directly feed lymphocytes, cells of the immune system. So, if we are truly going to change the paradigm of health, we have to frame the question correctly. So, that's what skeletal muscle does. And then, of course, you look good naked, and all the other dating things that you-

Chris Williamson 10:12 (laughs)

Dr Gabrielle Lyon 10:12 ... will be talking about. There's all that other stuff, okay? So there's look good naked, and then be strong and capable and age well and be able to do the things that you love so that you can show up for the life that you've created in a strong and capable way.

Chris Williamson 10:31 I often think about my

Chris Williamson 10:33 kind of heritage training in my 20s, and how I was 18 years old and I got to the Center for Sporting Excellence at Newcastle University, and I was, I think I was about 63 kilos, which is just not heavy. I'm built to be very small. I'm built to be very, very slight. And, um, I remember the first day, it was about two and a half years later, I hit 70 kilos, and I was like, "I am massive." Uh, and (laughs) now I walk around at like a, a portly 88, and I'm like, "Oh, God, I wish I was 70." It was so much easier to move around when I was 70. But I think about the fact that the reason I started training is because I wanted to be more attractive to girls and I wanted to feel more powerful. I wanted to look and feel like a man, right? Even though you've still got the body, if you're an, like, ectomorphy kind of guy at 18 years old, you've still got the body of a teenager. You don't have the body of a man. And I didn't want that. I wanted to change.

Dr Gabrielle Lyon 11:23 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 11:24 But it's kind of like, um, come for the gains, stay for the longevity, right? That you arrive because of how it makes you look and how other people respond-

Dr Gabrielle Lyon 11:34 Mm.

Chris Williamson 11:35 ... to you and the progress that you see in the mirror, but it seems, as you're saying here, that downstream from this, the benefits that you get from a physiological perspective, from a longevity, health span perspective, uh, are pretty drastic. So, if it's the case, right, if there is an unseen mechanism which we could be using, a pathway physiologically which would mitigate people from getting ill and help us to defeat disease more effectively and blow off glucose and, and i- improve insulin sensitivity, all of the things that you've just listed, why is it the case that there is such an obsession with BMI, with losing weight, with reducing fat? I spoke to Stan Effening. Stan Effening said on this very podcast, he was talking about the pivot between, um, moving from sugar to aspartame, uh, aspartame, uh, on, um, uh, diet drinks, and he said, "What people don't consider is, the sheer impact of the weight loss itself will be so beneficial that any increase that you are concerned, even though the concern about..."... like, aspartame is, is, like, 8,000 Cokes a day you'd have to drink in order for you to hit some sort of threshold that would be dangerous. Even him, the strongest bodybuilder on the planet, was telling me weight loss is very important. So, uh, t- talk to me about this relationship between obesity, like being overfat and under-muscled, as you call it-

Dr Gabrielle Lyon 12:54 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 12:54 ... like, what, what's this relationship? Where is it important, and what, what kind of gets missed off in this conversation?

Dr Gabrielle Lyon 12:59 Well, first thing I think it's really important to recognize is that we don't directly measure skeletal muscle mass routinely. Again, this flies in the face of, have we been asking the correct question? And in my mind, the answer is no. We use a DEXA, which is a dual X-ray. We've all heard of DEXA. And that actually measures, uh, bone and fat, and then there's lean body mass, and lean body mass includes everything. We've been directly measuring adipose tissue and bone, but not skeletal muscle, first and foremost. So we have to recognize that when we talk about skeletal muscle, when we talk about how much, w- we haven't had a consistent way of looking at it, just one that i- which we will eventually. So there is, uh, something called D3 creatine, which will eventually come out. It's a tagged... it's a deuterated creatine. It's tagged. Uh, you'll take a pill. You'll be able to pee on a stick and see how much muscle mass you have. But up until that point, CT, MRI are not really feasible for everybody b- to be doing, and especially tracking over time. So the big, the big picture is we haven't been directly measuring skeletal muscle mass. We have estimations at best. Secondly, we measure body fat because that seems to be, at a certain level, we know that that can cause implications, whether it's 30% or more body fat. We know that there is an increase in infl- inflammation, potentially triglycerides, hypertension, uh, et cetera. That is important to know. But again, this just goes in the way of thinking of looking at th- wait until a problem comes and we know that this is the problem. There is data to support that it actually, it is the loss of skeletal muscle versus the increase in body fat that may be more detrimental. And again, um, I think that we're gonna start to see an emergence of more data as we begin to directly measure skeletal muscle mass, but you will see that the survivability of an individual, they will have a greater survivability the more healthy skeletal muscle mass they have.

Chris Williamson 15:06 Do, uh... uh, you know, whatever it is, 50% of Americans are obese. Maybe more than 50% of Americans are obese or overweight. Presumably, someone that has to carry around that much surplus fat-

Dr Gabrielle Lyon 15:19 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 15:19 ... has to... if you were to lean them out, they must have an okay bit of muscle underneath. Surely, is that not the way it works?

Dr Gabrielle Lyon 15:25 Um, well, in the data it says that they have more muscle, and I'm so glad you brought this up. Have you ever had a rib eye steak?

Chris Williamson 15:32 Many times.

Dr Gabrielle Lyon 15:32 Many times. Have you ever had a filet?

Chris Williamson 15:34 Yes.

Dr Gabrielle Lyon 15:35 Okay. Um, individuals that have obesity, not all of them, but typically what happens is you get fat in- infiltrated into skeletal muscle, intramyocellular fat. While an individual may have more muscle, it talks nothing about the quality of that tissue. You want your tissue to look like a filet. And actually, when we talk about pathology of tissue, what skeletal muscle really requires is flux. It requires activity. It requires stimulation, not just walking. I mean, walking is great, but people are, are saying, "Well, just walk. You'll do that." It's not frankly enough, um, but it's that flux, that utilization of glycogen. You know, fatty acids are used primarily by skeletal muscle at rest, which is interesting. The health of skeletal muscle is determined by its activity. While an individual could be obese and have potentially more muscle, one has to ask the question, is it healthy skeletal muscle?

Chris Williamson 16:33 Mm. That's interesting. Yeah, 'cause I remember seeing this, uh... it's, uh, an illustration of a, a normal-sized person and a really, really overweight person, and it's an X-ray of the inside-

Dr Gabrielle Lyon 16:46 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 16:46 ... of them, and you see that the bones that both people's bodies are scaffolded by are exactly the same, and yet you look at the amount of mass that is scaffolded upon them-

Dr Gabrielle Lyon 16:55 Mm.

Chris Williamson 16:55 ... and you go, "Wow, that is crazy to think that somebody that's, you know, 500 pounds or 600 pounds is only being held up by the same buttresses that a person that's 120 pounds is."

Dr Gabrielle Lyon 17:09 Yeah. Yeah. And, and I think what's so fascinating is that it goes to the, the point that this is very plastic tissue. You can change it. It's very, uh, pliable, and you literally can add mass to an organ system in a healthy way. Last time I checked, you can't grow your liver. I'm not talking about alcohol. But by attention and awareness, you can make very specific changes that have a measurable outcome. And 50 per-

Chris Williamson 17:42 Yeah.

Dr Gabrielle Lyon 17:42 And by the way, Chris, 50% of Americans don't exercise.

Chris Williamson 17:46 Yeah, well, g- explain, given that we know however many percent of people are overweight, so on and so forth-

Dr Gabrielle Lyon 17:51 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 17:51 ... what's the stats, when you look at it from your lens, right, the bros' lens-

Dr Gabrielle Lyon 17:56 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 17:56 ... what is it (laughs) , what is it that people are or are not doing when it comes to protein intake, resistance training, muscle mass, uh, grip strength, ability to pick something up? Is it like some ungodly percentage of fathers can't lift a, a daughter after-

Dr Gabrielle Lyon 18:11 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 18:11 ... four years old or something?

Dr Gabrielle Lyon 18:12 Yeah. I mean, well, I think that you're changing the conversation because your guests are all... in order to be a guest on your show, you have to be at least 250 pounds, I think.

Chris Williamson 18:21 (laughs)

Dr Gabrielle Lyon 18:21 You have to at least be, um, so I appreciate you having me on because I am substantially less than that.

Chris Williamson 18:26 No, it's the deadlift. It's the deadlift numbers. You've got it wrong. It was deadlift 250 pounds, not be 250 pounds.

Dr Gabrielle Lyon 18:33 Okay, perfect, perfect. Um, so 50% of Americans don't exercise. Uh, uh, you know, I'm not exactly sure why, but the reality is, 100% of people eat.If I were to say which is going to have a bigger impact on skeletal muscle health, it would be training. The influence of exercise and its effect on all of the homeostatic mechanisms in the body is profound. It influences every organ system. However, you could go your whole life without exercising. We're not saying that that's healthy, but you essentially could. 100% of people have to eat, and you really must begin to pay attention to this, especially as you age. And listen, the human body's totally flexible. You talk to Stan, he'll eat a certain way. You talk to Chris, they'll eat a certain way. The human body is amazing. The question becomes, what is the ultimate outcome that you're looking for? And from my perspective, my perspective of muscle-centric medicine, skeletal muscle is the pinnacle of health and well-being. And-

Chris Williamson 19:38 Muscle-centric medicine, I love that.

Dr Gabrielle Lyon 19:40 Yes. Yeah. So that, I coined that in 2015 and began to develop it. And that's something that we teach to other providers.

Chris Williamson 19:48 Very cool.

Dr Gabrielle Lyon 19:49 Mm, these concepts.

Chris Williamson 19:49 What was that thing,

Chris Williamson 19:50 I think I read in your book, something about the relationship between a mother's fitness and the health of her children?

Dr Gabrielle Lyon 19:55 Yes, yes. Ladies, train. Women need to train, and you need to also continue your activity while pregnant. You're not just departing and deploying behaviors, but there is some epigenetic change. The healthier and more fit the mother is, the better their offspring will be.

Chris Williamson 20:15 Wow. Yeah, what, um, what's the 30,000-foot view of, uh, training while pregnant?

Dr Gabrielle Lyon 20:22 Well, first of all, they say continue to do what you do. There's very little data and literature on training while pregnant. I can tell you what I did, and I can tell you what I tell my patients to do. Throughout my pregnancy, I swung kettlebells. I lifted heavy things. I wasn't trying to do a one-rep max, but I was incredibly active. By the way, I also had hyperemesis gravidum. Do you know what that is?

Chris Williamson 20:46 That sounds like some Egyptian pharaoh. No.

Dr Gabrielle Lyon 20:48 (laughs) Something that you will never experience and thank goodness, it's basically where you're throwing up all day long. I mean, it is-

Chris Williamson 20:56 Okay, yeah.

Dr Gabrielle Lyon 20:56 ... impressive. It is aggressive. It is a, something that they don't sell you on pregnancy in the beginning. But number one, you have to understand that you're going to feel bad, so you might as well train anyway. I felt terrible. I would swing kettlebell, throw up, swing kettlebell, throw up.

Chris Williamson 21:10 (laughs)

Dr Gabrielle Lyon 21:11 I mean, it was a sight to see. Man, when I went into the gym, uh, instead of having a water bottle, I had, like, a- a barf bag.

Chris Williamson 21:17 Sick bucket. Fantastic.

Dr Gabrielle Lyon 21:18 It was just, it was the worst, yeah. Uh, I think they lost a lot of gym memberships that month.

Chris Williamson 21:21 I bet they did.

Dr Gabrielle Lyon 21:22 Yeah, you know.

Chris Williamson 21:22 Doctor over the far side, hurling everywhere. So, is there anything, uh, are there any movements, uh, intensity levels that you would say, you know, there's a- a girl that's listening or a guy that's having a kid with her, and it's like, "Darling, don't do what, uh, like, d- don't try and pull sumo." I don't know. Like, is there something that you would try and, uh, avoid people from doing? Hand them to burpees maybe? I don't know.

Dr Gabrielle Lyon 21:44 I mean, a lot of... Yeah. I mean, it depends, right? So they'll s- they'll say that, um, activity and walking and moving and lifting will actually can induce labor later on. Again, obviously, people have to figure out how it's going with their pregnancy and what their individual provider recommends. But listen, giving birth is- is like a sport. So doing squats, doing those things, it's very difficult to deadlift, uh, pregnant and swing kettlebells. But you should be able to carry. You should be able to move. Um, and again, it just depends on the individual. But my best advice is be fit going into pregnancy and continue it.

Chris Williamson 22:18 Is there anything that you've looked at to do with dad fertility? Uh, let's say that there's a- a guy and a girl who want to get pregnant. A bunch of my friends have had, what do they call it, conception moons, which is kind of like a baby moon, but it's before. It's like for, like, "We're gonna go-" One of, one of them was really, really keen to give his daughter a French name, so went to Bordeaux in an attempt to conceive. Didn't happen. I'm pretty sure it happened when they were on, in Nashville or something on the way back, like all right, hey-

Dr Gabrielle Lyon 22:47 In, yeah, in the airport on the plane.

Chris Williamson 22:48 ... call a kid, call a Kid Rock. Um, so what about for dads? You know, I- I've heard a lot of my friends, they'll go, like, um, dialing in the diets, adjusting these sorts of things. Is there anything that you've seen for improving fertility, improving the quality of- of sperm for men?

Dr Gabrielle Lyon 23:05 Yeah, certainly diet plays a role. Diet plays a role in fertility and these, this is also multifactorial. It's not one thing. You can't just have a good diet and all of a sudden your, um, you don't even know your- your children's names. Like, that is not happening. But I would say that the obvious would be have a good diet, have foods that are rich in zinc and proteins. The other thing that I would say is we do know that the better body composition an individual has, the better their sperm potentially, the health of their sperm is. Resistance training is, plays a role in that. Um, the other aspect that I will say, 'cause I'm a physician, is Clomid or enclomiphene. I don't know if you've heard of that. So selective estrogen receptor modulator, very safe, been, it's been used for quite some time. It's typically used in women, but we use it a lot for men. Um, and it's... it can help improve sperm volume.

Chris Williamson 23:59 How long can guys run enclomiphene for before you get, uh, before you would start to be like, "Yeah, it's time- time to back it off now, mate"?

Dr Gabrielle Lyon 24:08 You could, the way that there's- there's multiple ways in which, uh, you could run it, but we run it for, we'll run it for 25 days on and five days off.

Chris Williamson 24:17 Mm-hmm.

Dr Gabrielle Lyon 24:18 And we could run it for every day. Um, so my husband actually, I don't know if you know this, but my husband was a SEAL for 10 years and now is a urology resident. So he works at Baylor and-

Chris Williamson 24:28 Right.

Dr Gabrielle Lyon 24:29 ... he's in urology, which is where men's health was born. So Lipschultz, have you heard of Lipschultz?

Chris Williamson 24:34 No.

Dr Gabrielle Lyon 24:34 What? You got to get him on. Or Mo Hedara. These guys are major in andrology. These were the guys that created, you know, where we talk about TRT, these are the guys that created this medical practice. And, um...... I, I could say a really inappropriate joke when I'm on.

Chris Williamson 24:52 Ah, okay. Right. So-

Dr Gabrielle Lyon 24:54 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 24:55 ... in your opinion, is exercise more important than nutrition?

Dr Gabrielle Lyon 24:59 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 25:00 Wow.

Dr Gabrielle Lyon 25:01 I mean, do I have to pick one?

Chris Williamson 25:04 You gotta prioritize.

Dr Gabrielle Lyon 25:07 100% of people eat, so get that right.

Chris Williamson 25:12 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 25:13 It's interesting to me to think about this pivot now from what has been quite an obsessive diet culture for 40 years, 30 years, something like that?

Dr Gabrielle Lyon 25:23 At least, at least.

Chris Williamson 25:25 Yeah.

Dr Gabrielle Lyon 25:26 At least.

Chris Williamson 25:26 And now thinking, well, what are the reasons why, what are the reasons why the diet culture is so much more fervent and, and religious, as you mentioned, compared with training culture? Like, the 5x5 and the 5-3-1 and the GVT and the push-pull legs and the five-day split guys aren't-

Dr Gabrielle Lyon 25:48 They're all friends. They're all hooking up.

Chris Williamson 25:49 ... like, dueling it out on the internet. The only people that they all hate together are CrossFitters, right? So that's fine. But it, it's very interesting to me, and I wonder whether this will become a battleground as more people plant a flag because they're very passionate about, "My training modality is an important part of who I am as a person," and it's, I think, a big chunk of the nutrition, uh, argument comes from almost like a fear of death. A lot of people that are into this are doing it-

Dr Gabrielle Lyon 26:17 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 26:17 ... because they want to improve their health span, improve their longevity, and me attacking your approach when it comes to a nutrition foundation is kind of the same as me saying, "You think you're going to live a long time, but you're not, and I know that you're not." So it's, it hits very, very deep and I don't know whether people have that same amount of existential attachment to their training modality, but if-

Dr Gabrielle Lyon 26:42 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 26:42 ... what you're saying here, muscle-centered medicine continues to grow as it has been, it's gonna get to the stage where you are gonna have r- religious fights over what split should we do.

Dr Gabrielle Lyon 26:56 You're absolutely right, and I think that it's interesting when you think about training and you think about nutrition, part of the reason why people, uh, again, this is just my opinion, are so at odds with each other is because they are unaware of the lens at which they're viewing something through. It's almost as if they're pawns. So if you look back at the history, let's say you look back at the history of nutritional sciences, which by the way isn't that old, you look back at the history, and after the Great Depression moving into World War II when the backs, the Americans, their backs were against the wall and we're going to lose the country, they drafted the first million men, and the first million men were unfit for war. 38%... I'm sorry, 38% of the first million drafted were unfit for war. They said things like they had flabby muscles, they had poor eyesight because of vitamin A, they didn't have any teeth. Obviously because of the Great Depression, there was a lot of undernourishment. This became a real threat. This was the first time that the US really identified that nutrition was a real threat. They issued a series of, I don't wanna say propaganda, but a way of educating, and what they issued was w- in one hand they said, "Are you going to support Uncle Sam? And in order to support Uncle Sam, here's what you're gonna do." And what they said was, "You're going to eat high quality proteins. You're going to eat liver and eggs and beef and dairy because you need to have strong muscles." This is in ni- this is in the '40s. No idea. They said, "You're gonna minimize processed foods and you're going to eat, uh, fruits and vegetables and even have some, uh, like, uh, it was like sodium electrolytes." They, I was really shocked when I, when I saw that part. And then they said, "Are you gonna help Hitler?" And th- and they showed an individual who was skinny and scrawny and, "Here, here is the way you're going to help Hitler. You're going to not eat high quality protein. You're going to eat processed foods. You're going to eat white bread." In the '40s, they established these guidelines and they started this whole campaign about how we could be stronger and more capable and vibrant and courageous and that's what we needed. Then, obviously, all these high quality foods were shipped overseas to the soldiers. There started to, um, for need, uh, increase in processed foods. You have Sylvester Graham and John Kellogg. Sylvester Graham was a minister. I don't know if you've heard of him, but he was kind of the move, the, the godfather of this what you would call vegan movement, and he started to talk about the idea that in order to be a moral person, you needed to reduce any kind of animal products, you shouldn't drink, you shouldn't have sex, you should eat very plainly. And he got, um, a really influential follower, and that was, uh, Kellogg, who then made granola and a graham cracker. And this-

Chris Williamson 30:02 What's the story, how much legitimacy is there around the Kellogg origin, trying to soy the men, cook them into low testosterone? Give me your, put your tinfoil hat on and let's go, let's go full-

Dr Gabrielle Lyon 30:15 Okay, fine. Well, I mean, I wasn't-

Chris Williamson 30:16 ... Alex Jones on it.

Dr Gabrielle Lyon 30:16 I wasn't around at that time. (laughs) I wasn't there. But I think what happened was there was an early recognition that high quality foods were imperative to health and wellness, and when we were gonna lose the country, this became a high priority. Then, obviously, we have a nation to feed and ultimately a global, a global industry and a, just a global feeding zone, right? We have to do those things. Processed foods, which are under two dis- different jurisdictions and commodities in these whole foods, um, require money, they get money, they make money....whoever has the money controls the narrative. So whatever the agenda is, whoever has the most fortitude behind that gets to control the narrative. And this is kind of circling back to the question of why is it so crazy? I wake up and I choose violence, Chris. I post something and I go, "Oh man, I cannot wait just, just..." I... And I have to do it. See, we talked offline before and if you have a certain skillset, then you have a responsibility to share that. Is that true?

Chris Williamson 31:24 I think so.

Dr Gabrielle Lyon 31:25 I've been a physician since his- since 2006. I've seen a lot of life and I've seen a lot of death. And so why I even started talking about this is because I saw so much misinformation, and here I am as a geriatrician at the bedside of like, oh, signing this death certi- certificate and then this death certificate. And all these people are talking about how, you know, going plant-based is gonna save the world and all this other BS and not thinking about, uh, how that is going to influence the midlife people and what that end result is going to be.

Chris Williamson 31:58 What is the impact of going plant-based on people that are no longer 23?

Dr Gabrielle Lyon 32:07 I think that we are going to see an epidemic of osteoporosis and sarcopenia like we've never seen before.

Chris Williamson 32:13 What is that for people that don't know?

Dr Gabrielle Lyon 32:15 Uh, sarcopenia is a loss of skeletal mass and function, and osteoporosis is bone density. And could you be young and plant-based? Could you get all the protein? Again, this is a very, um, just like a very small perspective, this idea that plant and animal foods, that it's all just about protein. Protein we talk about generically, but protein, that's 20 different amino acids, nine of which are essential. Those nine essential, those are individual nutrients. These things are not interchangeable. We're not just talking about dietary protein. We're talking about food as a food matrix and the things that ride along with it. For example, if you're eating high-quality protein, you're getting creatine, you're getting carnitine, you're getting taurine, you're getting L-serine, iron, B12, iron. These things are necessary for young children and women. And as you age, it's not like your appetite increases. The lower your quality of protein or the lower your diet is in protein, the higher it needs to be animal-based because you're not just eating for dietary protein, you're eating for other nutrients. And so what do I think? You could be plant-based and healthy. I think that you can... I think that the body is very adaptable. I think we're gonna start to see, um, ways in which maybe the gut microbiome plays a role. But do I think it is an ideal diet for an aging individual? Absolutely not. I don't. And this is based on experience.

Chris Williamson 33:44 Uh, looking at the, the way to improve your body composition, what are the principles of optimizing body composition in your opinion?

Dr Gabrielle Lyon 33:54 Well, nobody likes to hear this, but you track your money and you track your speed, right? Say yes, Chris.

Chris Williamson 34:01 Sometimes.

Dr Gabrielle Lyon 34:03 (laughs) Monday, Wednesdays and Fridays. You gotta track your food. It's just a reality. I know people wanna do intuitive eating. I'm sorry guys. Just get a sense of what you're actually doing and it's annoying but if you have goals and you know that you need to hit those, you have to be able to track. Like-

Chris Williamson 34:17 Okay, what is your... I'm gonna stop you and get tactical each step of the way. What is the most seamless way that you have found to track food? Because it's not MyFitnessPal and I will fight you if you say so.

Dr Gabrielle Lyon 34:28 (laughs) So what I do is different than what I think is the easiest thing.

Chris Williamson 34:32 Right. What's the easiest thing?

Dr Gabrielle Lyon 34:34 Um, Cro- like Cronometer, just an app. It-

Chris Williamson 34:38 What's your favorite? What do you tell your clients to use?

Dr Gabrielle Lyon 34:40 Cronometer.

Chris Williamson 34:41 Why?

Dr Gabrielle Lyon 34:42 Because it has just like nearly everything in there. All these different nutrients. Again, typically the, the label only has 14 different nutrients.

Chris Williamson 34:51 Is that... Is Cronometer the one where you can take a picture of your food or you can speech it in and say like, "One, uh, slice of toast with three eggs, hard-boiled, blah, blah," and it-

Dr Gabrielle Lyon 35:01 Well, again, I haven't been using it because I, I didn't t-

Chris Williamson 35:03 Oh.

Dr Gabrielle Lyon 35:03 I didn't tell you what I do.

Chris Williamson 35:05 What do you do?

Dr Gabrielle Lyon 35:06 I, I haven't used it in the last three months.

Chris Williamson 35:06 I wanna know, I wanna know what this, this Tapped into the Matrix version is.

Dr Gabrielle Lyon 35:10 It is called pen and paper.

Chris Williamson 35:12 Oh God, that's lame.

Dr Gabrielle Lyon 35:14 Oh no. Are you kidding?

Chris Williamson 35:15 Super lame.

Dr Gabrielle Lyon 35:15 What are you talking about? You can write it and then you can look at it. I'm old school. I'm old school, man.

Chris Williamson 35:20 Yeah, I can tell. Oh.

Dr Gabrielle Lyon 35:21 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 35:21 Okay, so, uh-

Dr Gabrielle Lyon 35:23 I write it down, but then I know exactly what I'm doing and also, by the way, my food diversity is not huge. And you're gonna be talking to our good friend Bedros Keuilian. I want you to ask him what he had for lunch three weeks ago on a Wednesday. He'll be able to tell you.

Chris Williamson 35:38 Is it because it's the same thing that he had for lunch every other day?

Dr Gabrielle Lyon 35:41 Yep. Consistency. So once you know what you're doing, then, uh, like smooth sailing.

Chris Williamson 35:48 Well, I mean this was what... Uh, a really interesting insight from Alex Hormozi. He says that most people work really hard at trying to alter their diet and alter their caloric intake and stuff, but really your diet isn't a diet. It's probably five meals that you've got-

Dr Gabrielle Lyon 36:03 That's right.

Chris Williamson 36:03 ...in the locker that you eat very, very regularly and it's a case of just nudging these five meals, right? Or getting rid of one entirely. Like okay, I don't do the bolognese anymore because it turns out that I'm an addict for cheese and that cheese is making it to 2,200 calories.

Dr Gabrielle Lyon 36:21 Right. It's not that complicated. But if you were to go on social media, you would spend at least six months in paralysis.

Chris Williamson 36:29 Right.

Dr Gabrielle Lyon 36:30 True, true.

Chris Williamson 36:30 So what doesn't get man- what doesn't get measured doesn't get managed. So you need to be measuring the food that you're taking in.

Dr Gabrielle Lyon 36:37 Yeah, at first, at first. And I'm gonna walk you through... Um, and I actually talk about this in my book Forever Strong. You know, we haven't really mentioned it, but I wrote this book Forever Strong so that it could be something applicable for everybody. You literally can read it. It talks about the history. I know that you read it. Um, and it's...... you know, an evidence-based, it's an evidence-based manual. And when you think about how you put together a diet, it's quite simple. What I recommend and what the data would support is 0.7 grams of protein per pound body weight or ideal body weight if you wanna go higher. So simple. So, you're what? 88.

Chris Williamson 37:21 180. Call me 180.

Dr Gabrielle Lyon 37:22 Okay, 180. Is... And you're happy with that weight? Feel great?

Chris Williamson 37:27 Yeah, I should recomp. Uh, I need to lose a bit of weight. I actually did a DEXA at Fountain Life in Dallas a few months ago, and it came back at 19.5%. I was like, "That... If I'm 19.5%, I'm the leanest-looking, I don't know where this weight's gone." It's like all in my, all in my foot or something. Uh, and then when I do an electrolysis, I'm much closer to kind of 13.5 or so. Uh, so I don't know whether-

Dr Gabrielle Lyon 37:52 Oh, interesting. Good.

Chris Williamson 37:52 ... I don't know whether the DEXA was, uh, having an off-day.

Dr Gabrielle Lyon 37:55 Yeah. Uh, clearly, clearly having an off-day. That's interesting. And then it'll be interesting to see as you track your skeletal muscle, but again, this... We have to understand that that is, uh... Do we know your optimal skeletal muscle? I would say we don't.

Chris Williamson 38:10 So, yeah, 180. So, I think I, I tried to hit 180. I tried to go for one gram per pound.

Dr Gabrielle Lyon 38:14 Great. What about now though?

Chris Williamson 38:15 But it's hard. It's hard. Why is it so hard for me to hit high volume protein?

Dr Gabrielle Lyon 38:21 You're not hungry. The body... You're not hungry. So, dietary protein, number one, I wanna mention something that I think often gets overlooked as we talk about "macronutrients," is that protein need is really the only macronutrient that changes as you age. The intake or need of carbohydrates and fats, like who cares? It doesn't actually change, but the biological and physiological processes of the body require more protein as you age, more protein as you go through... If you have a catabolic crisis or if you're going through cancer or you're... Or if you get burned, no other macronutrient changes in that way. So, we have to get the story of dietary protein right. We just, we have to, because it is the most effective macronutrient when it comes from, when it comes to body recomposition, when it comes to, when it comes to body recomposition, when it comes to understanding that each of these amino acids have diverse biological roles. Again, we are talking about dietary protein, but if we look at these other amino acids like threonine. Threonine is essential for mucin production in the gut. Tryptophan is important and essential for serotonin production. Phenylalanine is critical for dopamine production. Leucine is critical for mTOR signaling, which is important for muscle protein synthesis. So, we talk about protein, but what we really are talking about are these individual nutrient needs, which by the way, I think that that is the next iteration of the protein conversation, is really looking at these limiting amino acids. But I'm digressing, so I'm going to go circle back to the 0.7 to one gram per pound ideal body weight. Everybody who does that, in my opinion, is gonna do better.

Chris Williamson 40:17 When

Chris Williamson 40:18 it comes to people who say, "Dr. Lyon, that sounds great, but I get to 90 grams of protein a day and I'm just sick," what do you advise to your clients or what are your best hacks for increasing that protein intake? Are there any recipes, any food types, any... What is it, what is it that you give to people?

Dr Gabrielle Lyon 40:41 Well, the question is, why are they really struggling to get that? It is very satiating. You know, it does influence GLP and PYY, gut hormones. The question is, why are they so full? Is it because potentially their metabolism, they've had some kind of adaptive thermogenesis, or is it that they just don't have a protein appetite? So, the first thing that we do is we get a sense of what their total calories are. That's the first thing that you need to do. You have to know what you are ingesting. Again, like you said, what you measure, changes, tracks, blah, blah, blah. Understanding that hitting that first meal of the day and hitting it early on... Again, a lot of people talk about fasting and pushing that fasting window later. I think that there is something to be said for eating after you are coming out of an overnight fast. Your muscle is primed to be stimulated, whether it's an hour to two hours after you wake up and then stopping eating later on. So, you begin to retrain your body through feeding patterns. The fastest way to increase dietary protein would be a protein shake, whether it's a whey protein shake, that's my favorite, or even a whey concentrate. So, it doesn't have to be an isolate, a concentrate. Concentrate has immunoglobulins, lactoferrin, alpha-lactalbumin, other... Again, thinking about food more than just the macronutrients. I think the old school way... And, you know, uh, we could tease Stan about this. He's kind of evolved more into the more nutrient-dense foods, but the old school way is just thinking about the macronutrients. The new school way is thinking about the other low molecular weight molecules and things like anthocyanins and, and other compounds that have metabolomic properties, nutriti- uh, other intermediate properties.

Chris Williamson 42:18 One of the things that I used to do was... I got into fasting when David Sinclair first came on the scene probably five years ago-ish. I went to go out to see him in Boston, and he tells me all of this amazing stuff. And I'd... You know, I still think there's a lot of there there with it. But I noticed that my composition suffered. I didn't... I felt soft. Uh, I looked soft comparatively. Um, and one of the other thing. I've been through every...... bro science diet. I did carb backloading, then I went into carb night, then I did skip loading. Did you ever do skip loading? Do you remember that one?

Dr Gabrielle Lyon 42:55 No, this is impressive. I've never even heard of that one.

Chris Williamson 42:57 Right. So skip loading was go carb free throughout the week, and then on a Sunday eat as many carbs as possible. It was advised to try and have a full box of cereal just for breakfast.

Dr Gabrielle Lyon 43:07 Uh-huh.

Chris Williamson 43:07 And it was like, "If you can get yourself to, like, a kilo of carbs by the end of the day," that was considered a win. Um, and it just... E- every single different one. What I realized was I'd kind of inculcated this, um, sacrifice/reward dynamic. I often cheat. If I'm gonna cheat on my diet, I'll do it on an evening time, very rarely in the morning. Right? I think this is quite common. You know, how many people are picking up a Mars bar first thing in the morning, but they'll maybe do it on an evening, their willpower's depleted, they're in the house, whatever, whatever. But my sleep is really, really negatively impacted when I eat even within, like, two and a half hours of going to bed, which is awful because out here in Austin everyone wants to go for dinner at 8:00 at night. I'm like, "Right, okay, dude." But by the time I've finished eating, that's 9:00, which means that I can maybe get some good sleep by midnight, and it's a Tuesday, right? So, yeah, I- I'm- I'm coming round to the idea that, um, still, you know, ha- have the window if you want, do like a- a 16:8 if that's what you like the sound of, or, like, you know, even an 18:6. But I think that pivoting that window a little bit earlier and then trying to maybe cut off calories at 6:00 PM at night, something like that sounds like a- sounds like a pretty good way to start it.

Dr Gabrielle Lyon 44:16 I think it's a- it's a great way to start. And then understanding the next macronutrient that I think about is... Well, I... Before I say that, I... Number one, the data supports that the 24-hour dietary protein intake is most important, meaning, um, how much protein you have during the day, right? Within a 24-hour period. I would say that protein distribution matters, and there is, uh, kind of cr- two schools of thought. One is that just make sure that you're getting it all in, it doesn't matter how you do it. I would say if you believe that, then you wouldn't believe any, uh, meal distribution study or any study that indicates muscle protein synthesis happens because it happens at that first meal. For the- all- the majority of the literature that I've ever seen, it's always about this first meal, which in my mind means that a meal distribution matters. It's not just about this 24-hour period where you're just having one meal in the day. So, for the listener who's thinking, "Gosh, you know..." They're thinking two things right now. They're thinking, "Does Kris really have 19% body fat?" And then the second thing that they're thinking is, "Well, how am I actually going to move the needle if I wanna lose weight?" And I would say obviously figure out your caloric, uh, intake. I talk about that in the book. There's... It's just super easy. It's a calculator. And then you begin to segment out how you are going to ingest dietary protein. I wouldn't go above 50 grams per meal. You know, for someone like you, I'd probably hit 40 to 50 at that first meal for sure. There's not very much data for that middle meal, and then potentially that last meal, but probably closer, again, 40 to 50, and then-

Chris Williamson 45:53 Forty- 40 to 50 grams of protein in a food is a massive amount. Like, it's a very, very large amount of meat.

Dr Gabrielle Lyon 46:01 That's... It's like two- two scoops of whey protein.

Chris Williamson 46:04 Oh, that's true if you were looking to do it through supplements. But if you're looking to do it, let's say, that we're having it through salmon or we're having it through, uh, eggs. I mean, how many egg? What's an egg? Eight?

Dr Gabrielle Lyon 46:15 Six eggs. That would be six. Yeah, six-

Chris Williamson 46:17 Yeah.

Dr Gabrielle Lyon 46:17 ... eggs would be about 30 grams. When you're gonna-

Chris Williamson 46:19 Six egg- six eggs is no joke. Okay, hang on, hang on. You brush past this forcing 50 grams of protein. Six eggs. So it's five- five grams per egg-ish?

Dr Gabrielle Lyon 46:28 Yeah. I-

Chris Williamson 46:29 Right. Okay. So, you're- you're talking about 10 eggs. 10 eggs is a lot of eggs.

Dr Gabrielle Lyon 46:35 You better get started.

Chris Williamson 46:36 I- I- I... So it seems. But this is my point, right? You look at this plate and I think even for me now, I see it now in myself, I'm like, "Oh my god, every single..." I think you did an Instagram. You did an Instagram post about this, right? You hit your protein-

Dr Gabrielle Lyon 46:48 That's so embarrassing. It's still embarrassing.

Chris Williamson 46:49 You hit your protein goals for the day and then you realize, "God, I've gotta do it all over again tomorrow."

Dr Gabrielle Lyon 46:53 So embarrassing. I have a- an amazing team that makes me, uh... They tell me I'm more relatable if I look like an ass, so-

Chris Williamson 47:01 Uh-huh. Yeah. How's that going?

Dr Gabrielle Lyon 47:03 ... literally. So embarrassing. Oh, it's so terrible. Um, but yes, this is... You are not alone in that. Now, I'm gonna challenge you. Austin... So we live in Houston. I have been down to Austin, and they have a lot of restaurants. I can't even believe... I mean, they have a lot of restaurants. You go and you order in one of those restaurants a, like, filet. And this, my friend, is your eight-ounce filet. That true or not true?

Chris Williamson 47:27 Mm-hmm.

Dr Gabrielle Lyon 47:27 Eight times seven, I mean, you're getting almost 60 grams of protein in that tiny little filet that you spent $75 on. So it can be done.

Chris Williamson 47:38 Fair enough. I should- I should go for filet more on-

Dr Gabrielle Lyon 47:40 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 47:40 ... first thing in the morning. Okay. So, we are making sure that we measure because that's the only way that we can manage this stuff. We are prioritizing protein within a 24-hour window. We're aiming for naught .7 grams per pound of body weight or ideal body weight. We're also then considering that there is a little bit of protein timing going on here, in that much more than about 40 to 50 grams of protein in any one meal is probably gonna be a little bit wasted presumably from an efficiency perspective. But just... I'm- I'm pretty sure Stan taught me under 20 grams, under 20 to 15- 20 to 15 grams, it can actually be metabolized in a different way. So it's like the sweet spot appears to be more than 20, less than 50, something like that.

Dr Gabrielle Lyon 48:23 I would say that that i- that is right. When you're getting below 20, again, you're- you're not s- you're not hitting that leucine threshold, and leucine is one of the essential amino acids. It's that branched-chain amino acid. And, uh, my mentor of 20 years was the guy who put the science behind a lot of the, um, literature that we stand on today. This idea of protein dosing, this idea of a meal threshold. This was some of his work that he put out into the world.... which is incredible to see this innovation. Before, they knew that leucine somehow stimulated muscle, but he really connected the dots and then translated it over to humans. Um, and this idea that something below a leucine threshold, so the average leucine threshold for an adult is two and a half grams. By the way, the RDA for, for leucine, and we'll talk about this in another podcast, is, uh, between two and three for the whole day, but the actual ar- the actual, uh, influence and more optimal amount is two to three grams of leucine per meal. This is, it's important.

Chris Williamson 49:30 Yeah, there's a, there's an imbalance here between what is being recommended and what is optimal.

Dr Gabrielle Lyon 49:35 I mean, the aging population is the fastest growing population. I was just looking at data earlier. Um, but so the idea of the 20 grams or less is i- it will get counted towards calories, but it's not gonna do anything for muscle in that way.

Chris Williamson 49:54 Okay. So just to round out the timing thing, which I think some people will be considering 'cause everyone likes to obsess over stuff that doesn't really matter, is the big hammer mover of this not less than 20, not more than 50, spread it out over, uh, e- you know, no one's eating less than, like, 100 grams, no matter how slight you are. Therefore, you need at least three meals a day. Are you bothered at all about a post-exercise window?

Dr Gabrielle Lyon 50:20 No.

Chris Williamson 50:21 No?

Dr Gabrielle Lyon 50:22 No. Uh, there, uh, I think that is it beneficial? I would say that the literature would say no. It's as long as you're eating that protein, does it have to be right after you train? It doesn't. I will say could there possibly be some benefit eating after you, if you are untrained and you train and then you are older and you are prioritizing protein, would your body be primed for a bit more efficiency? Quite possibly. Could I get a lot of pushback on the scientists, from the scientists in that? Yes. It's something that I was, uh, having a conversation about this morning, and from the literature, they would say there's really not great data that the post-exercise window is helpful. My argument would be, well, there's probably a place for it. There's probably a place for it.

Chris Williamson 51:17 It just seem, i- i- it just seems like there's bigger, there's bigger fish to fry here.

Dr Gabrielle Lyon 51:22 Totally. Totally.

Chris Williamson 51:24 Right.

Dr Gabrielle Lyon 51:24 And the b- the... Yes. You have to protect body composition at all costs. We have to stop focusing on what we have to lose, and we really have to hone in on what we have to gain.

Chris Williamson 51:35 What are... We mentioned earlier on that, uh, your body is the average of the five most common meals that you cook. Um, (laughs) what-

Dr Gabrielle Lyon 51:44 I've never, never heard that. I'm curious.

Chris Williamson 51:45 Well, I just made it up. That's why.

Dr Gabrielle Lyon 51:46 Oh.

Chris Williamson 51:47 Why... Uh, what are your most eaten meal preps? Like, what, what has most of your body been built on over the last few decades, do you think?

Dr Gabrielle Lyon 51:59 Uh, eggs, frittata, turkey, beef, dairy. I'm actually a lower fat person.

Chris Williamson 52:07 Mm.

Dr Gabrielle Lyon 52:07 Um, and then I try to add-

Chris Williamson 52:08 I don't, I don't agree with high fat either. My body really doesn't like it.

Dr Gabrielle Lyon 52:11 Yeah. I, I, I don't do well on that. And then adding in a lot of anthocyanins, so acai berry, which is that really rich purple color, um, and I just try to add in, um, whether it's blue algae, spi- I mean, I try to add in really colorful things.

Chris Williamson 52:28 Why?

Dr Gabrielle Lyon 52:29 Because I think that there are biochemical properties in them that, again, we just, there's so many, we just haven't gotten to it.

Chris Williamson 52:37 Cool. Okay. What about superfoods? If you were to rank order, you want to get the best-

Dr Gabrielle Lyon 52:46 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 52:46 ... uh, protein profile, you want to get the best nutritional profile whilst getting protein in, what's your top five?

Dr Gabrielle Lyon 52:52 Well, before I answer this, do I have to actually eat it?

Chris Williamson 52:55 Mm, no.

Dr Gabrielle Lyon 52:57 Okay, cool.

Chris Williamson 52:57 But if it tastes, if it tastes disgusting, then it doesn't count, so yeah, maybe.

Dr Gabrielle Lyon 53:00 Okay.

Chris Williamson 53:00 But not for you.

Dr Gabrielle Lyon 53:01 Okay.

Chris Williamson 53:01 For personal, personal taste.

Dr Gabrielle Lyon 53:03 Um, liver is disgusting, but it is so high in nutrition. Um, women that are anemic, individuals that need vitamin A, fat-soluble vitamins, liver is amazing, a amazing iron source, absolutely.

Chris Williamson 53:15 One ounce, two ounces a day?

Dr Gabrielle Lyon 53:17 I mean, I... Whatever you can stomach without throwing up, holding your nose, eating it however you have to do it, uh, I think it's valuable. I would say you want it-

Chris Williamson 53:24 Getting tactical. I've got a hack.

Dr Gabrielle Lyon 53:26 ... once or twice a week. I, I ca-

Chris Williamson 53:27 I've got a hack for it. I've got a hack for it. Salt the living shit out of it when it's frozen, throw it in an air fryer for two minutes either side, and it doesn't really taste like liver anymore.

Dr Gabrielle Lyon 53:37 It probably doesn't. It probably tastes like cardboard.

Chris Williamson 53:39 Two minutes either side? Are you crazy?

Dr Gabrielle Lyon 53:43 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 53:43 You're crazy. You're cr- you're cr-

Dr Gabrielle Lyon 53:44 Hard pass.

Chris Williamson 53:45 You're a crazy lady. Okay, okay, so liver's first, but you've got an issue with that.

Dr Gabrielle Lyon 53:49 Right.

Chris Williamson 53:49 You're bigoted, bigoted against liver.

Dr Gabrielle Lyon 53:50 Yes, yes.

Chris Williamson 53:50 Okay, so what's second?

Dr Gabrielle Lyon 53:52 Um, a lean beef. Lean beef is amazing. Again, why? Because it has creatine and serine, taurine, iron, zinc, selenium. These are all bioavailable, uh, vitamins and minerals, really important. So that would be my next one.

Chris Williamson 54:09 What cuts would you be looking at?

Dr Gabrielle Lyon 54:11 I don't actually care. So I get really lean cuts. I, I get it from Buff Cow. Have you ever seen a, a Piedmontese cow?

Chris Williamson 54:18 Yeah, I'm with, I'm wi- I'm sponsored by Piedmontese.

Dr Gabrielle Lyon 54:20 Okay.

Chris Williamson 54:20 Yeah, they're great.

Dr Gabrielle Lyon 54:21 Wha- they don't sponsor me. Come on, guys. Hit me. (laughs)

Chris Williamson 54:23 I'll intro you, I'll intro you to the guys.

Dr Gabrielle Lyon 54:25 Go. What?

Chris Williamson 54:25 I've got an entire freezer filled with Piedmontese in there. I literally had some, uh, filet before I came in.

Dr Gabrielle Lyon 54:32 But only-

Chris Williamson 54:33 That's it.

Dr Gabrielle Lyon 54:33 ... but how many ounces?

Chris Williamson 54:35 Uh, two eights.

Dr Gabrielle Lyon 54:37 Fair. Fair. So, um, a lean beef is amazing. The next thing that I would say, well, the next superfood from a bioavailable source of protein could be eggs. Eggs is great, and whey protein also great, but again, a whey concentrate. Uh, again, chicken, I don't eat a bunch of chicken.... salmon is good for omega-3 fatty acids, but it is a little on the, the fattier side.

Chris Williamson 54:59 Mm-hmm.

Dr Gabrielle Lyon 54:59 And over time, you do have to worry about mercury. We test that in my clinic. Uh, you do have to worry about some heavy metals and, and tuna-

Chris Williamson 55:06 (sighs)

Dr Gabrielle Lyon 55:06 ... those kinds of things.

Chris Williamson 55:07 One of the things that always feels like a, a rate-limiting step on salmon for me is I s- I really struggle to make good salmon at home. Like, it's kind of... It's just not... You know, you throw a steak in the air fryer, it comes out, you get it wrong by five minutes either side, but it's still edible.

Dr Gabrielle Lyon 55:23 Only five.

Chris Williamson 55:23 You, you throw salmon in a frying pan and care for it like a small baby chick, and it just ends up, it, it ends up atomizing itself-

Dr Gabrielle Lyon 55:31 Right.

Chris Williamson 55:31 ... all over the kitchen.

Dr Gabrielle Lyon 55:32 Nothing.

Chris Williamson 55:32 It's, it's very easy to get wrong.

Dr Gabrielle Lyon 55:34 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 55:35 And, um, that just limits how much I can eat salmon at home. I like it when I go out for food, but I think it's, it's like rough to, to try and make good at home.

Dr Gabrielle Lyon 55:42 I, I would agree. I, I would totally agree. So basically, we've covered liver, hold your nose and eat it-

Chris Williamson 55:48 Mm-hmm.

Dr Gabrielle Lyon 55:48 ... lean beef, Piedmontese, choose a buff cow, um, eggs, whey, and salmon. So I hit my five.

Chris Williamson 55:55 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. That's good. That's good work. Okay,

Chris Williamson 55:58 fair enough. Talk to me about the relationship of sleep and muscle building of what we've going on here.

Dr Gabrielle Lyon 56:03 Yeah, there's, um... I actually just interviewed Dr. Emily Lance on my podcast, and she is out of the Galveston Group. She's a scientist out of the Galveston Group, and one of the, the studies that she worked on was that, uh, was looking at sleep and muscle protein synthesis. Sleep, one night of sleep deprivation can suppress muscle protein synthesis by 18%. Can you imagine? Cumulative over time, that's not good.

Chris Williamson 56:29 That's my life. That's me.

Dr Gabrielle Lyon 56:31 Uh-huh.

Chris Williamson 56:32 That's-

Dr Gabrielle Lyon 56:32 Right.

Chris Williamson 56:32 That's being a club promoter for a decade and a half, yeah.

Dr Gabrielle Lyon 56:35 Yes. And I will say one of the other things that we see, so muscle protein synthesis on one hand is suppressed, but there is some data coming out that if you are sleep deprived, then kicking up training, so like the military personnel, they go through four days or five days of hell week. I should know this 'cause I've never heard the end of winter hell week. It's just, you know-

Chris Williamson 56:57 Right.

Dr Gabrielle Lyon 56:57 Exactly, like, that's hard. Um, but, uh, there is some evidence to support that training during that time, during a, a time of sleep deprivation can help support the tissue, which makes perfect sense. It can mitigate some of the effects from lack of sleep.

Chris Williamson 57:15 So we hear about, you know, downstream some of the concerns that people have around, uh, you are more likely to like, uh, salty foods, um, more likely to reach for highly processed foods, more irritable, lower willpower, all the rest of that stuff. But what you're talking about here is a much more direct mechanism from even if you go full Bedros Keuilian and, and wrangle your willpower and you don't eat the cookie and you do the thing-

Dr Gabrielle Lyon 57:44 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 57:45 ... you are still creating a glass ceiling on your ability to, uh, build muscle just based on how much time you had to sleep. And, uh, no amount of breath work or meditation or, like, ratchet hip-hop is going to be able to get you past that. So yeah, I think, I mean, and it's just, it's just another, another reminder that everybody is probably forgetting. And again, I... We're getting tactical on this one. I quite like the fact that we're doing this. You need to try a sleep tracker, whether it's an Eight Sleep mattress, whether it's a Whoop, whether it's an Oura Ring. Obviously, if you use Whoop, that would be great because I think that they're an awesome partner, but the main thing that you learn when you use a sleep tracker is you are not sleeping anywhere near as much as you think you are.

Dr Gabrielle Lyon 58:27 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 58:28 Like, that's... I, I can save you from having to buy one, right? It's great if you do it, and it's important to learn this lesson firsthand, but the lesson that you learn as soon as you start using a fitness tracker is, "Oh, I thought I was getting eight hours of sleep, but it turns out I was actually in bed for 7 hours 45, and my active sleep was 6 hours 20. Oh, fuck." Like, that's, that's the realization. That's what you spend most of your time. And now, for me, even if I don't have this on, I know, I'm like, "Look, if I need eight hours sleep, I gotta be in bed for nine hours." Like, I have to. Even if I try and crank my sleep efficiency as best as possible, bit of latency, bit of lost sleep efficiency, some m- micro awakenings throughout the night, it's like, guess what? It's hard to hit.

Dr Gabrielle Lyon 59:12 And by the way, and no offense to the sleep ninjas out there, sleep is annoying. There's a lot of other things that I would rather be doing than sleeping.

Chris Williamson 59:19 Sleep lane. Yeah.

Dr Gabrielle Lyon 59:20 It is, right? But I will tell you that in... when I was a fellow and we were in the memory and aging clinic, one of the risk factors for Alzheimer's was we always asked about sleep deprivation over time, because when you sleep, this is when the brain cleans itself, these glial cells. That, and actually, sleeping with a phone by your head.

Chris Williamson 59:41 Yeah. I mean, anyone... No one in my audience still has their phone in their bedroom, Gabrielle. No one at all does.

Dr Gabrielle Lyon 59:47 Not, not, not one person I know. Not one.

Chris Williamson 59:49 No one at all, or else they are no longer allowed to listen. Okay, so when we're looking at this sort of relationship, sleep to, uh, uh, muscle building, is there anything else? I wanna get into training, but before we get into that, we've talked about diet, we've talked about recovery. Is there anything else we're missing in kind of the milieu that is life beyond now training stimulus?

Dr Gabrielle Lyon 1:00:13 I think the big picture is eating whole foods. It doesn't have to be complicated. It should be high protein, from my perspective. There's no reason that when you have the luxury to eat that way, you don't. It is a luxury and a privilege to be able to prioritize dietary protein. Other countries don't get that, and it is a highly nutrient-dense source of, um, calories and, uh, a non-negotiable, especially as individuals age. You know, when you had mentioned that when you were really into fasting and, and you were reducing food intake, that that, um... It just... It may not be an ideal mechanism, right? Just might-

Chris Williamson 1:00:51 Fluffy. I was fluffy.

Dr Gabrielle Lyon 1:00:52 No. We don't want you fluffy. It would just ruin your image. So-

Chris Williamson 1:00:55 I'm not supposed to be fluffy.

Dr Gabrielle Lyon 1:00:56 If-

Chris Williamson 1:00:56 I'm fucking 19.5% body fat compar- according to that DEXA scan in Dallas.

Dr Gabrielle Lyon 1:01:02 Ye- that should ruin your day for at least a week.

Chris Williamson 1:01:05 It did.

Dr Gabrielle Lyon 1:01:05 Like, you have to have at least-

Chris Williamson 1:01:05 It really did.

Dr Gabrielle Lyon 1:01:06 Uh-

Chris Williamson 1:01:06 I think I- I think I need to... I think I need to go on a slight cut. Here's a point.

Chris Williamson 1:01:10 Here's a question that I've had in my head, actually. There is somebody that's listening who is both...... over-fat and under-muscled, right?

Dr Gabrielle Lyon 1:01:18 Yep.

Chris Williamson 1:01:18 There is someone who just doesn't have the body composition that they want, and they know that they are off on both ends of the scale.

Dr Gabrielle Lyon 1:01:24 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:01:26 If it was me, not knowing your world, what I would do, for me, is I would probably diet myself down because I'm going to get the aesthetics way quicker by becoming leaner first, which I can crack out in the space of six months and then building my muscle up from there. But what would you do? What, what would your advice be? Would you just try and recomp through everything? Like, how, how do you go about this? 'Cause motivation is going to be gauged as much by the mirror as it is probably by anything else.

Dr Gabrielle Lyon 1:01:57 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:01:57 So we need to satiate that in people.

Dr Gabrielle Lyon 1:01:59 Yeah, if it were me, I would focus on what I have to gain versus what I have to lose. If I had very little muscle and a lot of body fat, then from my perspective, I would not actually be focused on anything aesthetic. I would assume that I was not as strong as I should be and not as physically capable as I needed to be. I would focus primarily on being a human that was physically strong. And I'm not saying necessarily training for strength, but maybe you would train for some strength and some hypertrophy, but I would just start putting in the reps. I would start putting in the reps. I would, obviously see what my baseline diet is, prioritize dietary protein. It's very difficult to store protein as fat. It's very difficult. Like you said, you're like, "Ah, I got to 90 grammes. If I have one more buffed cow, I'm gonna shoot myself."

Chris Williamson 1:02:45 (laughs)

Dr Gabrielle Lyon 1:02:45 It becomes very difficult to overeat dietary protein. And there may be some impact on this adaptive thermogenesis. You know, the body's very smart, so if you start reducing calories too rapidly, the body will adjust, but dietary protein, uh, from my perspective, one of the reasons why it has this more thermic effect of food, thermic effect of feeding, is that, um, it's so valuable and it does stimulate muscle protein synthesis, that that, the machinery of that may take more energy than the energy-

Chris Williamson 1:03:15 Mm-hmm.

Dr Gabrielle Lyon 1:03:15 ... required to utilize carbohydrates, could be 10%, fats could be 5%, and, and protein could be anywhere between 15 and 20%. Again, depending on the study that you look at, um, and foods are not just primarily one thing. If you are an individual who needs to lose weight and build muscle, could you do both at the same time? You could. Would it be as effective? No. I would say you start with what you have to lose because that indivi- what you have to gain. Because that individual didn't get there by focusing on what they had to gain. I guarantee you they have spent a lifetime yo-yo dieting or having some, uh, feeling of just, you know, it doesn't feel good in your body if you're not feeling well, right? I, I think that we can all agree o- on that, potentially. Again, I don't know, but if this is wha- this, for me, this is what I would do.

Chris Williamson 1:04:06 I th- I, I think that... I like your framing around, uh, people are told that there is something that they have to lose. It's all about getting rid, getting rid, getting them out, out of this body.

Dr Gabrielle Lyon 1:04:19 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:04:19 And it really is a, it's like an anti-building mentality-

Dr Gabrielle Lyon 1:04:24 Totally.

Chris Williamson 1:04:24 ... within your physiology, and I don't think that that is particularly constructive. Okay, so we've danced around it, right? We've got all of the things in place, but we actually need to go out there and build some muscle now. We need some,

Chris Williamson 1:04:37 we need some training stimulus.

Dr Gabrielle Lyon 1:04:39 Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:04:39 If you only had ten exercises for the rest of time to build and maintain as much muscle as you could, what would they be and why?

Dr Gabrielle Lyon 1:04:51 Ten? (laughs)

Chris Williamson 1:04:52 Ten. That's it, that's it.

Dr Gabrielle Lyon 1:04:53 Okay. That seems like a lot.

Chris Williamson 1:04:55 So what do you think?

Dr Gabrielle Lyon 1:04:55 I would definitely do a squat, right? I would do a wide-

Chris Williamson 1:04:58 Barbell back squat?

Dr Gabrielle Lyon 1:04:59 I would. A lower, uh, a lower, lower on my back, wider stance just because, um... Yes, so I would definitely do a squat.

Chris Williamson 1:05:09 Why? Like, why, why lo- why low bar, why wider squat?

Dr Gabrielle Lyon 1:05:12 Just my physiology, just the way I'm built.

Chris Williamson 1:05:14 Okay, okay, okay.

Dr Gabrielle Lyon 1:05:15 The way I'm built. So I actually decided, side note, that it was a great idea to do a 50-hour event, uh, that was non-stop. And so, as I was training for that, I tore my hamstring off the b- I avulsed it, around 80-some percent off the bone. It was just a really, uh, it wasn't my smartest decision.

Chris Williamson 1:05:33 Oh.

Dr Gabrielle Lyon 1:05:33 Yeah, so it's, it's been this process of, uh, repair. Let's just say that.

Chris Williamson 1:05:37 Okay.

Dr Gabrielle Lyon 1:05:38 So I've had to modify some of my training. So a, a squat, a wider-stand squat, some kind of deadlift, whether it's a sumo deadlift or some kind of deadlift because just the mechanics and also the full-body, uh, movement of a squat. I would also say a farmer carry. We have to also begin to choose... And this is, when I think about this, is I think about all the older patients that I've seen being able to carry groceries, being able to carry a toddler, being able to... You know, it's, it's amazing. When we think about traveling, you know, I, I, I travel a lot. I also have two very little kids. I have a two-year-old and a four-year-old. Um, if you want some birth control, I will send them right over to your house.

Chris Williamson 1:06:17 Ah.

Dr Gabrielle Lyon 1:06:17 Right over to your house. And you'll, you'll see, you know, "Be careful." You'll hear people say, "Oh, be careful about putting this overhead. You, you know, the weight limit shouldn't exceed this." And it's just a whole backwards way of thinking about it. No, no, no. You are afraid to then go into the gym and lift a, a 50-pound, uh, weight, but you will have no trouble lifting your, or struggling to lift your 50-pound toddler to, to put them X, Y, wherever you're putting them.

Chris Williamson 1:06:41 Why, given the fact that you've already got a good bit of midline activation with your squat and especially with your deadlift, plus you've got grip work with your deadlift, what are you getting out of the farmer's carry-

Dr Gabrielle Lyon 1:06:53 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:06:53 ... that you haven't activated already?

Dr Gabrielle Lyon 1:06:56 Well, you're getting motion, and you're getting something that translates to real life. It's, y- you know, when we are, if we're really talking about healthspan, we have to talk about the things that will destroy healthspan and the reasons why we require help. Why do we go into a nursing home? What are the things that really affect quality of life? The number one thing that affects quality of life is physical mobility, in my opinion.... and I've seen this. So, not being able to... can you imagine not being able to climb up stairs, not being able to carry your groceries, not being able to put them up? I mean, I was just traveling here to Las Vegas, and there was a couple in front of me that couldn't put their, uh, luggage on, their carry-ons on the conveyor belt.

Chris Williamson 1:07:39 Have you ever had been? Oh, okay.

Dr Gabrielle Lyon 1:07:41 No, on the conveyor belt.

Chris Williamson 1:07:41 Fucking conveyer belt. Oh, okay, wow.

Dr Gabrielle Lyon 1:07:42 And you know what? I was like, "Do I help them? Do I help them?" But if I help them, they're never gonna get exercise. So, I see-

Chris Williamson 1:07:47 Wow, so you watched this person struggle-

Dr Gabrielle Lyon 1:07:49 I w-

Chris Williamson 1:07:49 ... with a one rep max-

Dr Gabrielle Lyon 1:07:50 I know, I was like, "You have to."

Chris Williamson 1:07:50 ... hand luggage carry?

Dr Gabrielle Lyon 1:07:51 I, but, I, I, I know, it was terrible. I really struggled.

Chris Williamson 1:07:54 You are. That's terrible.

Dr Gabrielle Lyon 1:07:55 But, no, because if that is the one moment they're going to be able to pick something up and move in a rotational way to put it there, which is how we move, we're not-

Chris Williamson 1:08:04 Homeboy's granddad's got DOMS for the next two weeks because you didn't help him move his 15-pound suitcase. Okay, three. Uh, we've got a squat, barbell back squat, low moment arm, wide stance, uh, a deadlift, and a farmer's carry. What's next?

Dr Gabrielle Lyon 1:08:20 So, the exercise. I think that, um, this is not necessarily a weightlifting exercise, so we didn't, uh, specify, but doing some kind of an interval on a, an assault bike or an Airdyne, being able to push out above a 90% VO₂ max, just really hitting it, you prove to yourself you can do it. It feels awful, but it is a way to improve insulin sensitivity. It's extremely effective, and I, I, I really do think that as we are training in the gym, it's not just about the machines, it's not just about the bands, but it's about being fit and capable for real life. It's true. God forbid there is an emergency, you better be able to show up and be a capable human. Do you have-

Chris Williamson 1:08:57 Well, this is the, uh, this is, you know, I think Peter Attia's biggest flex from a training perspective at the moment, or his, kind of, biggest obsession when, when I spoke to Murley this year, and he's saying, you know, VO₂ max is one of the best predictors that we have of someone's longevity. And I was like, "What?" Like, "Wha- I had thought it was all zone two. I thought it was all to do with resting heart rate and variability in blood oxygenation and, and, and galvanic skin response." He's like, "Just straight up VO₂ max, what's your VO₂ max?" Uh-

Dr Gabrielle Lyon 1:09:28 Yep.

Chris Williamson 1:09:28 ... so that, that was surprising to me to hear that.

Dr Gabrielle Lyon 1:09:31 And I do think that we are... I think that there is, um, somewhat of a discrepancy in the literature when it comes to muscle mass and strength. Right now, people will say strength matters and muscle mass. I- it's not about the actual mass, it's really about the strength. I think that we are at the precipice of literature changing as we begin to directly measure skeletal muscle mass through some of these, you know, more advanced ways like this D3 creatine. And I think that that may challenge... right now if VO₂ max is, is the greatest predictor, I think we're also going to see, um, a change in the literature when it comes to muscle size and strength. Think that that is going to be next. And I, I-

Chris Williamson 1:10:13 Okay.

Dr Gabrielle Lyon 1:10:13 Yeah. So, uh, I'll say that.

Chris Williamson 1:10:15 You know, just that it, it's interesting how there are theories about the way, the way that the human body works, but we don't have the measuring tools to be able to-

Dr Gabrielle Lyon 1:10:26 Yes.

Chris Williamson 1:10:26 ... make it happen yet, so what we do is we find proxies for that. Strength is a pretty good proxy for muscle mass. There's very few people that are very strong without being at least a little bit muscled. But what's the genuine mechanism that's going on here? Is it that we... the only thing that we can measure accurately is hand grip or bench press or-

Dr Gabrielle Lyon 1:10:43 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 1:10:43 ... uh, vertical jump or whatever?

Dr Gabrielle Lyon 1:10:45 I, I actually just had a, a conversation with... I work with a, um, a PhD. Sh- her name is Alexis Cowan. She, uh, did her PhD at Princeton. She's now at Penn. She's really helped with the Institute of Muscle-Centric Medicine. And we were going back and forth about grip strength. I think that, again, this is another... you know, Chris, my perspective is just because something is spoken about over and over and over again doesn't make it true. It doesn't mean that we're looking at it from the right perspective. And yes, we could say grip strength is a biomarker, but if we take a step back, we have to ask ourselves, um, are we potentially born with a certain threshold for grip strength? Is it really the end all, be all? Are, are we sure that that's true? And the next layer to that just goes in line with when we're talking about skeletal muscle. So, right now, we're talking about VO₂ max, but again, that's because perhaps we've had the tools to measure it. And then bringing to the conversation, which is often missed, is that we don't highlight the things that we're doing well. Um, I'm sorry. We highlight the things that we are potentially doing well without the insight of potentially the things that we're not and the oversights in, um, just measuring indices.

Chris Williamson 1:11:55 What is your favorite evidence-based protocol on an Airdyne or an assault bike for improving VO₂ max?

Dr Gabrielle Lyon 1:12:05 Um, great question. I actually work with a trainer. I don't do any of the protocols myself.

Chris Williamson 1:12:10 What does he make you do?

Dr Gabrielle Lyon 1:12:11 Uh... Carlos. Carlos is a major asshole.

Chris Williamson 1:12:15 Fuck you, Carlos.

Dr Gabrielle Lyon 1:12:15 Um, oh, man, the worst. I mean, so Friday right before I left, we just did, um, max effort. It was, it was 20 seconds all-out effort trying to push me above or to 90, um, 90%, and then he would give me 10-second rest. So, I don't know if that's... I felt like I could-

Chris Williamson 1:12:34 Okay, so like a TABATA st- style thing, but holding it for... like, doing it in 30-second intervals. How many rounds do you do?

Dr Gabrielle Lyon 1:12:41 He only had me do three minutes, thank God.

Chris Williamson 1:12:44 Yeah, that's still... uh, that's six rounds, right? That's al-

Dr Gabrielle Lyon 1:12:46 It's horrible.

Chris Williamson 1:12:46 ... that's, that's en- that's enough to kill you. Okay, cool. Uh, so you've got only four things. What, anything else?

Dr Gabrielle Lyon 1:12:52 Okay, let's keep going.

Chris Williamson 1:12:52 Are you bothered?

Dr Gabrielle Lyon 1:12:53 Let's keep going. No, no, no, let's keep going. So, uh, um, we said a squat, we said a deadlift, sumo deadlift for me. We said a, a carry.

Chris Williamson 1:13:01 Yep.

Dr Gabrielle Lyon 1:13:01 Um, I definitely think that you should be able to do an overhead carry. I think that you should be strong in an overhead position even though obviously it's probably not totally stable for the reason that I just like... I'd like at see you be able to do that over time.

Chris Williamson 1:13:15 Mm-hmm.

Dr Gabrielle Lyon 1:13:15 Um, I also think being able to do things like push-ups, getting off the floor... you have to be able to do push-ups. You have to be able to develop that upper body strength. Um-... also, let's see, what- what else, what else do I think is a non-negotiable? I mean, I think a Turkish get-up is great. It takes coordination, it takes capacity, you have to get balance. Uh, and then Gunnar Peterson would say, "Gabrielle, you have to add in something rotational." So any rotational, whether it's a swing or a, uh, something rotational. He said because you don't-

Chris Williamson 1:13:49 Being able to throw punches at a-

Dr Gabrielle Lyon 1:13:51 Thumping.

Chris Williamson 1:13:51 ... at a bag, something like that. Yeah, I mean the, the floor stuff, it's interesting that you've brought up two things that get you down to the ground, uh, with the push-up and then specifically Turkish get-up, which I was thinking about earlier on. Aaron Alexander from the Align podcast has a, he is one of these huge proponents of sitting desks.

Dr Gabrielle Lyon 1:14:09 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:14:09 Right? So a floor desk. And I have, in the other house through there, I have (laughs) this tiny little what look, I think it's meant for Japanese calligraphy. So I think it's meant for when you're sat doing your fancy Japanese, like, penmanship or something, uh, and I've got varying heights of meditation cushion behind it. Uh, and his whole thing is, uh, you get yourself down on the ground, spend an hour, uh, half an hour to an hour a day with your hips below your knees if you can.

Dr Gabrielle Lyon 1:14:43 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:14:43 And I have to say, sitting down there feels so nice, like glute med opens all of that out when I get into that kind of cross-legged position.

Dr Gabrielle Lyon 1:14:51 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:14:51 Uh, and you can lift your hips up and actually lean forward-

Dr Gabrielle Lyon 1:14:54 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:14:54 ... which feels really lovely on your lower back, that feels like it kind of decompresses a little bit. Like it's so nice, like all of that's really, really good. So I am in, I am down for ground stuff.

Dr Gabrielle Lyon 1:15:04 Yeah. Um, that, I, that sounds very interesting. I cannot wait to see that. And, uh-

Chris Williamson 1:15:10 It's never going to be made public.

Dr Gabrielle Lyon 1:15:11 (laughs) I mean, it should though.

Chris Williamson 1:15:13 It's, it's remaining, it's remaining private. That's, if I went full Austin psychedelic bro mode, I wouldn't be at a standing desk. I would be on the floor and I would be, I would be like twirling a, a th- uh, what is it, like a fucking ayahuasca stick-

Dr Gabrielle Lyon 1:15:30 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:15:30 ... between my fingers while I'm doing it. Okay, so let's say that you've got three more, three more things that you can introduce.

Dr Gabrielle Lyon 1:15:36 Um, I do think, again, so we, we talked about how we would use, uh, grip strength. So, you know, you're developing grip strength, you're developing, you know, being able to carry. I don't know if we talked about a swing, but I do think that you should be able to swing, you should be able to do some kind of dynamic movements. I think that that is important. And again, how do you translate these things to real life? A Turkish get-up, so we have squat, uh, sumo deadlift-

Chris Williamson 1:15:59 Yep.

Dr Gabrielle Lyon 1:15:59 ... we have a throw up on the devil's tricycle.

Chris Williamson 1:16:02 Yep.

Dr Gabrielle Lyon 1:16:02 We have, um, some kind of push-up, right, pushing up after, off the ground. We have, um, kettle ball swing.

Chris Williamson 1:16:10 Farmer carry.

Dr Gabrielle Lyon 1:16:11 Farmer carry. What else? I know, see you gave me 10.

Chris Williamson 1:16:15 10, yeah.

Dr Gabrielle Lyon 1:16:16 And then, uh, you know, you might think-

Chris Williamson 1:16:17 Phil Heath wanted, Phil Heath wanted 11, and Bumstead also, like rolled his eyes at me only giving him 10. So you, you've got bags of spare capacity, you only needed eight.

Dr Gabrielle Lyon 1:16:27 Oof. Uh, I mean, I think also you should be able to do a pull-up.

Chris Williamson 1:16:29 Uh, w- hey, where are we gonna get ja- like where are we gonna get jacked arms from here?

Dr Gabrielle Lyon 1:16:33 I, I, I was actually thinking that. But you said, but your, your question was that you could only do for I think-

Chris Williamson 1:16:39 For the rest of time. To build and maintain as much muscle as you could, what would they be?

Dr Gabrielle Lyon 1:16:43 Okay.

Chris Williamson 1:16:43 Maybe, may- I would be tempted to maybe throw in some sort of pull-up.

Dr Gabrielle Lyon 1:16:48 Oh, yeah. No.

Chris Williamson 1:16:48 Like we haven't got, we haven't got much of that scapular retractions.

Dr Gabrielle Lyon 1:16:51 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:16:51 I guess in the dead- that's a lie, in the deadlift we have.

Dr Gabrielle Lyon 1:16:54 Okay.

Chris Williamson 1:16:55 Mm.

Dr Gabrielle Lyon 1:16:57 Fair. Fair. Um-

Chris Williamson 1:16:58 Calf raises. If Alex Hormozi was here-

Dr Gabrielle Lyon 1:17:01 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 1:17:01 ... he would say calf raises.

Dr Gabrielle Lyon 1:17:03 No.

Chris Williamson 1:17:03 Because he calls, he keeps on texting me and telling me that calves are the front garden of the, of the body. And I'm like, "At best they're the backyard, right?"

Dr Gabrielle Lyon 1:17:15 I'm with you.

Chris Williamson 1:17:15 "At best they're the backyard. They're not even on the front of your body. You can't make this-"

Dr Gabrielle Lyon 1:17:20 Also, by the way, wait, by the way, women don't care about calves.

Chris Williamson 1:17:23 He would say, "That's 'cause you haven't seen my calves."

Dr Gabrielle Lyon 1:17:27 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 1:17:27 That's what he would say. I know that he would. He would say, "What about, what about these calves?" And I would say, "That's your backyard." But okay, yeah, cool. I think it, what's, what's really interesting and I'm loving asking this question to pretty much all of the fit, health and fitness people that I speak to, it's really indicative of where they're coming from, from a health and fitness perspective. You know, it's obvious that you've got that, like sort of geriatric care background because you're thinking training for life, right? Like no one else has said, "Oh yeah, I'd love to put a farmer's carry in," because like, so what? Like I just presume that my, my deadlift or like my row or something is gonna be able to get me through the carrying side.

Dr Gabrielle Lyon 1:18:07 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:18:07 But the, you know, that contralateral moving thing, that being able to stabilize the trunk while the hips move underneath you, I think that's really important. So yeah, we've ended up, I think we've got like maybe a, a library of 80 exercises.

Dr Gabrielle Lyon 1:18:20 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 1:18:20 Now you're the first person in all of them that hasn't said, uh, dumbbell side lateral raises. But, um, you know, so be it.

Dr Gabrielle Lyon 1:18:27 That's hilarious. That's okay. Uh, but I will say my perspective comes from, you know, I talk about, I do my training as a geriatrician, but my patient population, we take care of elite war fighters. My patient population is we service elite war fighters and like CEO maverick guys that are just super physically fit. And they, I would say, I mean, I don't know what all of them are doing, but I would say the majority of them have a lot of well-rounded training programs. Right?

Chris Williamson 1:18:57 Yeah.

Dr Gabrielle Lyon 1:18:57 And my perspective is as a mom, I have two little children. Can you imagine if I went down to pick one up and one's pissing on the wall and the other one's doing something else, I have to grab the other one. I have to be able to move fast enough so my new drapes don't get ruined.

Chris Williamson 1:19:12 That's obviously the priority. When it comes to, uh, tempo, rep ranges, set ranges-

Dr Gabrielle Lyon 1:19:20 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:19:20 ... what are people getting wrong in your opinion?

Dr Gabrielle Lyon 1:19:22 I think there, now first of all, there is a phenomenal paper and that I think that anyone who's really interested in these, uh, this repetition continuum, the paper is called Loading Recommendations for Muscle Strength Hypertrophy, hopefully I'll get it right, Local Endurance: A Reexamination of K- the Continuum Repetition.... or the Repetition Continuum.

Chris Williamson 1:19:44 Very, very sexy title for a paper.

Dr Gabrielle Lyon 1:19:47 Th- thank you for-

Chris Williamson 1:19:47 Please translate.

Dr Gabrielle Lyon 1:19:48 ... uh, amazing. And really, basically, um, it, it highlights that we've got this strength, hypertrophy, endurance. So we've really put things into buckets and that maybe the evidence doesn't support that, that there's multiple ways to get stimulus. So what do I think that people are getting wrong? Potentially that, you know, if you're just going eight to 12 reps, maybe that's just hypertrophy, but for older individuals, they potentially could do lighter weights and go for longer and still get hypertrophy of e- uh, influence. So I think that this rep range continuum, uh, could be reexamined. I think we need to exam-

Chris Williamson 1:20:30 Okay. What about, what do y- what's y- what's