Cancelled For Appearing On This Podcast - Vincent Harinam

1. 0:00 – 8:09

   Vincent’s Life Since Appearing on Modern Wisdom

   1. CWChris Williamson0:00

      What has happened to you since our last episode?

   2. VHVincent Harinam0:03

      Ha. Well, i- it's a good question. I guess we take the, uh, the lo- the long route in explaining what exactly has happened here. You're, of course, well-aware of the situation. Uh, you've been, you've been a great friend and a great, uh, uh, confidant in, uh, in this affair. But, uh, what I can tell you is that, uh, I am no longer in the academy as a member of staff and a lecturer. I've left the academy because I was soft canceled at a prestigious university in the UK. I won't say which one. I prefer to keep the details off the table. It's, uh, it's happened quite a, quite a, a bit away back now, so, uh, we'll keep that off the table. We can certainly talk about how we got there, or at least how we got here.

   3. CWChris Williamson0:43

      Yeah. I was instrumental, at least-

   4. VHVincent Harinam0:46

      (laughs)

   5. CWChris Williamson0:46

      ... in some regards (laughs) . I facilitated your soft cancellation.

   6. VHVincent Harinam0:50

      This is correct. It was you and Mikhaila Peterson, so I have the both of you to, uh, thank for the soft cancel-

   7. CWChris Williamson0:55

      An unspeakable duo of people to be associated with, yeah.

   8. VHVincent Harinam0:58

      Just thoughtful individuals that try to improve the lives of others by putting out content to help them better themselves. Gosh, you people, you know?

   9. CWChris Williamson1:04

      Okay, so take it from the top. What, what was the issue? What was the experience? What were the conversations? What was the outcome?

   10. VHVincent Harinam1:11

       Well, I suppose th- th- the... just to take it from the very beginning is that I'd went through an application and interview process for a professorial job at a, as I said, a fairly prestigious university in the UK and-

   11. CWChris Williamson1:24

       What were you at the time? What were you when you walked in?

   12. VHVincent Harinam1:27

       I was a lecturer. I was a lecturer.

   13. CWChris Williamson1:27

       A le- What's the official... Is that lecturer of, or is that associate professor?

   14. VHVincent Harinam1:32

       It's just a lectureship, a lectureship or a, a lecturer. You would, uh, teach classes more so. It's, it's, it's sort of like, um, a contract-based professorial job at a non-UK university, so you would, you would be seen as a teaching stream professor at another university, for example. Yes. Yeah, so I, I'd, I'd gone through the process of, of this, uh, job and I did end up getting it, so... A- and the reason why I know all these details is because it was told to me by various members of staff and, um, various members of the hiring committee after the fact. So, there are certain people that were very unhappy with what had happened and they couldn't keep it to themselves and they gave me all these details about the things that had transpired behind closed doors. But just to, just to explain what had happened is that, um, I was essentially chosen to be the professor. I was essentially given the job, but the contract was not sent to me, right? It... You know, it... this was... The decision was made on a Friday, and HR obviously doesn't work on the weekends, so you'd have to wait till Monday. But in between the Friday and the Monday, one member of, of the department, or a few members of the department, had heard that I would be the next in line for the job. And so they brought up the podcast that I was on, the podcast with yourself, the podcast with Mikhaila, and then it became an issue that I was not a worthy candidate because of my participation on these platforms. And so they'd essentially brought it back to a second interview, a, a, a sort of kangaroo court, which was set up in such a way that it put me to be a bad candidate. I- i-... Chris, before I even sat down in that seat for the second interview, they'd already played the podcast that I was on with you, uh, decrying that I was a member of the manosphere. They, they actually... Uh, uh, one member of the hiring committee actually, uh, circulated an article, a Salon.com article on the red pill and decried me as being a member of that community, that being the manosphere community.

   15. CWChris Williamson3:27

       Yes. (sighs) We spent much of that conversation... For the people that haven't listened to it, we spent much of that conversation at the... mildly criticizing to outright mocking the red pill, confus- confused ideas about what men should and shouldn't do. It was about two years ago when we sat down, and it was one of the really formative conversations that I had, really. You've written a number of great articles about this, but yours have been really, really sort of foundational in my understanding of the, the conception of what's going on, this tall girl problem, imbalance, hypergamy, all that stuff. But it was so overly delicate and, and so softly spoken throughout that we would have been accused by anybody in the manosphere of being blue-pilled.

   16. VHVincent Harinam4:13

       This is correct.

   17. CWChris Williamson4:13

       Anybody, uh, in the manosphere would have said, "This is simping for feminists. This is... You're, you're, you're wantonly bending, uh, bent- breaking your back because you want to be accepted by the wider community at large." And what it shows is just how far the spectrum can move that to internet people you were so blue-pilled that you're a cuck-

   18. VHVincent Harinam4:36

       (laughs)

   19. CWChris Williamson4:36

       ... but to academic, uh, academic people, you're so bigoted that you're unspeakable. Do you know what I mean?

   20. VHVincent Harinam4:43

       Yes. Yes, a- absolutely.

   21. CWChris Williamson4:43

       And it's the same, it's the same conversation.

   22. VHVincent Harinam4:45

       Same conversation. And, uh, the thing which I found most interesting is that I was told that one member of the hiring committee was so appalled by this decision that they refrained from actually making a call as to who would receive the job. They abstained from voting at all because they thought it was, it was simply a travesty, which kind of rings true to me because it, it, it seems to me... I, I have two sort of takeaways from, from this experience. The first takeaway is that people have this tendency to believe that cancel culture is something which is overt and public, that it's a public cancellation, right? Someone is, is a public figure that is no longer, uh, working a job because members of their faculty or department have removed them because there's some sort of public consternation. But my contention is that true cancel culture is pervasive and silent. It's behind closed doors, where members of the academy will, uh, essentially blackball, uh, potential candidates because of their political ideologies, let's say. Now, I would say that the other takeaway is that I don't think it's purely based on political animus, th- these sort of soft cancellations. I think 50% of it is political and the other 50% of it is personal.I would say that a lot of these cancellations are premised around jealousy within the academic sphere. Jordan Peterson comes up as the optimal example. I think that half the people that wanted to cancel that guy, they did so because of his views on Bi- Bill C-16. And I think the other half of the academics that wanted to cancel him were simply jealous of him. They didn't like the fact that he was courageous and bold in making a public statement regarding this particular policy, and that he was accumulating all of the limelight. Academics are very jealous and petty people by nature, just based on my experience. You ask any academic, they'll tell you stories about individuals in their department. Uh, I think, um, it, it's often a tribute to Henry Kissinger, but, uh, there's a quote out there, uh, from, uh, Wallace Sayre, who was a American politics professor out at Columbia University in the 1950s and '60s. And he said that the reason why university politics is so vicious is because there's so little at stake. And it ties into something called Sayre's Law, which stipulates that the intensity of feeling in a dispute is inversely proportionate to the, uh, value of the thing at stake.

   23. CWChris Williamson7:01

       Yes. Well, one thing that it's got in my head is that personal vendettas masquerading as social justice, or righteous call-out, is such a beautiful strategy to couch your own petty, juvenile, capitalistic, personal, egotistical aspirations in.

   24. VHVincent Harinam7:21

       Mm-hmm.

   25. CWChris Williamson7:21

       Because it gives you... I- i- it allows your questionable morality to stand on the shoulders of someone that you deem as having done something wrong. And it means that nobody's actually gonna bother to look at you.

   26. VHVincent Harinam7:32

       This is right. This is correct. Uh, I, I, I would say that, uh, it's not a meme, I think it's probably correct based on the studies that are out there, that a lot of American professors are probably far left and support far left economic policies. If, for example, we were to snap our fingers and make these individuals have a substantive salary, overnight, they would change their, their economic views. They would go all the way from the left to probably the center, maybe even the right regarding taxation.

   27. CWChris Williamson7:59

       Are you saying that the problem to fix wokeness in academia is to pay people more?

   28. VHVincent Harinam8:03

       No one complains when they're highly paid, do they?

   29. CWChris Williamson8:07

       (laughs) I

2. 8:09 – 19:00

   Vincent’s Interview Where He Got Cancelled

   1. CWChris Williamson8:09

      had, uh, Corey Clark on the show. I may have-

   2. VHVincent Harinam8:12

      The psychologist.

   3. CWChris Williamson8:12

      ... sent you that one-

   4. VHVincent Harinam8:13

      Yes.

   5. CWChris Williamson8:13

      ... on, uh, on WhatsApp. And, um, y- you know, another skew is that the academy is now very heavily dominated by women, and women and men have differing ideas about what is, isn't, is not acceptable behavior, what is and is not acceptable findings to be discovered in research, how behavior between students with their lecturers, and lecturers with each other, and so on and so forth. It, it's a shifting, uh, shifting tectonic plate, I think, beneath the academy in a way that it hasn't been previously. Uh, and then, again, the modern world of, like, leftism, not traditional liberalism, but, like, this sort of internet leftism, is purpose-built to make the followers look good online.

   6. VHVincent Harinam9:07

      Yes.

   7. CWChris Williamson9:07

      It's, it's performative empathy. It's, "Look at how much I care about this disadvantaged group." It's the tyranny of the minority, um, you know, trying to uphold whatever the most oppressed... This week, it's people with a club foot, and next week, it's people with a gluten intolerance. And then, because that makes you seem like an empathetic person. But as we've seen-

   8. VHVincent Harinam9:26

      This, this is right.

   9. CWChris Williamson9:27

      ... over the last couple of months, uh, you know, Ellen DeGeneres, Lizzo, Amy Schumer, you know, the most vehement, forthcoming of the, like, card-carrying, "We care about the, the little people" people are actually the ones that are the most bigoted behind the scenes.

   10. VHVincent Harinam9:45

       Mm-hmm. I, I would completely agree with that statement, that sentiment. In its entirety, I would say that within, within these sort of institutions, it is the appearance of the thing without the thing itself. And, and the, the... I, I suppose the frustrating part though, is that the effects, or the downstream, the second order, third order effects of that is that you're not hiring the most meritocratic candidates. The best person does not receive the job simply because they don't hold certain ideologies which are in consonance with those within a department or within an institution, which drives down the quality of research if you're not hiring the best people to do the best, the best, uh, form of research out there. So we are, i- in essence, taking institutions such as the academy, such as the news industry, and downgrading it because of political ideology, because of wanting to look good. We reduce the quality because we reduce the, the quality of individuals that we hire based off of their ideology.

   11. CWChris Williamson10:39

       Okay, so you turn up to this second interview, which actually turned out to be a struggle session where you were held up against the wall and had my podcast, uh, our podcast episode shot into your face. What happened after that? Because that didn't necessarily mean that you needed to leave the academy.

   12. VHVincent Harinam10:56

       Right. Uh, excellent question. I didn't care. That's, that's the short answer. I think I, I'd relay this point to you is that when this all happened-

   13. CWChris Williamson11:04

       We spoke that day. Yeah, we spoke that day.

   14. VHVincent Harinam11:05

       Yeah, we sp- exactly that. We spoke that day, and within the next 24 hours, I'd moved on to something different. Uh, I, I, look, I'm the type of person, I, I take these sort of things in stride and I don't linger on them for very long. I like to move on to the next thing right away. And, you know, in life you have a lot of options. At least, I'm, I'm the type of person that can cultivate different options, and I took an option that was available to me. And, um, I'm very happy now. To be honest with you, I, I looked at this particular soft cancellation very similarly to, similarly to the COVID lockdowns in the sense that it was a form of accelerationism, because I was always going to leave the academy at some point and join the private sector, join industry, and they just did that for me, right? So thanks, I guess.

   15. CWChris Williamson11:46

       (laughs)

   16. VHVincent Harinam11:46

       I mean, (laughs) I, I, I sup- look, I have no animus towards the people that did it. I understand, I understand, uh, their point of view. I understand how this happens in the academy. And to be honest with you, if you're an academic in, uh, at an academic institution and this sort of thing happens to you, it should be expected.... it should be expected at this point. Uh, cancel culture, as I said, is endemic within the institution. It's a soft cancellation, it's never public-

   17. CWChris Williamson12:09

       Yeah.

   18. VHVincent Harinam12:09

       ... or very rarely is it public.

   19. CWChris Williamson12:10

       The- the- the soft cancellation thing is so interesting as well, because it's another, uh, layer of protection from the accuser to the accusee, right?

   20. VHVincent Harinam12:20

       Exactly. Exactly.

   21. CWChris Williamson12:21

       The, you know, we- we- we- there's no point at which anyone in HR or some news organization could come in, "Really, where's the story-"

   22. VHVincent Harinam12:31

       Right.

   23. CWChris Williamson12:31

       ... from like-

   24. VHVincent Harinam12:31

       Right, right.

   25. CWChris Williamson12:32

       ... Vincent wasn't allowed to sit at the cool kids table in the staff tearoom.

   26. VHVincent Harinam12:37

       Yes.

   27. CWChris Williamson12:37

       You know, like, where... There- there's-

   28. VHVincent Harinam12:39

       Yes, yes.

   29. CWChris Williamson12:39

       ... there's none of that. It's- it's all the easy to disguise, second ordery-

   30. VHVincent Harinam12:44

       Right.
3. 19:00 – 21:23

   Predictions for the Future of Academia

   1. CWChris Williamson19:00

      too far.

   2. VHVincent Harinam19:00

      Ah.

   3. CWChris Williamson19:00

      So final, final thing. Now that you are on the outside looking in to the academy, what is your prediction for the future? We have some close friends, Rob Henderson being one of them, uh, that are remaining in f- for better or for worse. W- what's your prediction for the future of academia?

   4. VHVincent Harinam19:19

      20 to 30 years.

   5. CWChris Williamson19:22

      Why?

   6. VHVincent Harinam19:22

      It's, it's no longer going to be a viable institution because of things like this happening. Why, why would anyone, why would any parent, uh, send their child to a four-year institution, soaking up all this money, all this debt for four years of ideological indoctrination and essentially not paying for an education? Why would anyone subscribe to that sort of model? I mean, there was a, there's an interesting tweet. I don't... I'm not on Twitter very often, but there was an interesting tweet I read the other day. "What is one scam that, uh, we are, uh, aware of but not, is not as publicized?" We haven't sort of, um, gotten rid of the scam. And the answer that came up the most was higher education. So what this means is that there's going to be alternative means for education, uh, not just the university itself. I think the university is gonna fall by the wayside. You're, of course, gonna get top-tier universities that remain at the very top, but everything else, uh, within the periphery, all the second, third order, or excuse me, third-degree universities are going to be eliminated or have their, their, uh, enrollment rates reduced significantly, I would say within-

   7. CWChris Williamson20:24

      Fair enough.

   8. VHVincent Harinam20:25

      ... the next two to three years.

   9. CWChris Williamson20:26

      Yeah. Well, I don't know. I can't work out whether that seems tragic. It does seem tragic to me, actually. I'd like, th- the antipathy toward higher education isn't toward the institution of university and it isn't toward academia. It's toward the people who are not using it for the thing that it was supposed to be for. And I try and check myself when I go like, "Oh, down with the universities." It's like, no, no, like, the universities are fine. It's just some of the fucking people that are inside of them.

   10. VHVincent Harinam20:54

       This is correct. The, the institution in and of itself is, is brilliant. What, it was designed to educate a ton of people in a short period of time, that being four years. But it's become a degree mill tinged with ideology and, and, um, it's, it's really just a business. I mean, that's, that's another way of thinking about it. And, and anything which sort of sets itself out to be a, uh, principled but is based off of gaining money is not principled, if money is the primary principle or the driving factor.

4. 21:23 – 28:58

   The Future Consequences of Young Male Syndrome

   1. VHVincent Harinam21:23

   2. CWChris Williamson21:23

      What do you think has changed in the dating market since we last caught up? I know that you had other things on your plate, like trying to save a career and then find a new one.

   3. VHVincent Harinam21:30

      Yeah.

   4. CWChris Williamson21:30

      But what have you been, what have you been getting particularly interested in, in the dating market?

   5. VHVincent Harinam21:34

      Well, I wanted to move away from all the descriptive stuff. So the last conversation we had was on what exactly was going on in the dating marketplace with relation to men and women. But I wanted to look at it from the perspective of the future. So examining, looking at the current dating trends and trying to extrapolate 20, 30, 40, 50 years into th- into the future what those results were going to be. And I haven't gotten around to building the simulation models. I know we talked about that. I'll eventually do that. But I've mo- I've mainly been looking at some statistics around, um, crime, violence, you know, the young male syndrome as it were, and trying to make sense of all that.

   6. CWChris Williamson22:10

      What is young male syndrome, for the people who aren't familiar?

   7. VHVincent Harinam22:13

      Right. So young male syndrome is a concept that, uh, sort of instantiates or says that young males, I guess between the ages of 18 and 30, who are not partnered, not married, are sort of low status or perceive themselves to be low status. They are the ones to engage in antisocial activity, uh, to sort of upend the existing political order, the existing social order because of their inherent belief that they are downtrodden and low status.

   8. CWChris Williamson22:41

      Right. And we have a interesting paradox on our hands at the moment that-

   9. VHVincent Harinam22:48

      Mm-hmm.

   10. CWChris Williamson22:48

       ... large numbers of men within the 18 to 30 cohort aren't having sex. They probably don't have a massive amount of meaning. We have got lots of, uh, unemployment in, uh, particularly previously employable groups and they're probably not integrated very well into society. But we haven't seen an in-kind increase in antisocial behavior, mass shootings, et cetera.

   11. VHVincent Harinam23:08

       Mm-hmm.

   12. CWChris Williamson23:08

       And this is something I put to you, my male sedation hypothesis, which has actually finally been cited by Buss and William Costello, which is pretty cool.

   13. VHVincent Harinam23:16

       Big thing. Awesome.

   14. CWChris Williamson23:17

       Um, but you have f- your background is actually, like, criminology/statistician. Is that close enough?

   15. VHVincent Harinam23:27

       I would say so. I would say a, a data scientist that does criminology, let's say.

   16. CWChris Williamson23:30

       Right. Okay, that was clo- close enough for me.

   17. VHVincent Harinam23:32

       Close enough.

   18. CWChris Williamson23:32

       Um, y- y- so you are the guy, right? You understand the, the dating market. You understand what's going on there. But you also have this very p- unique insight into antisocial behavior, criminal behavior, and it's, it's coming at it from a demographic economist/statistician's lens. So what do you think? Like, what's the current trajectory got for young men? And, and what's going on? Why aren't we seeing everybody blowing everything up?

   19. VHVincent Harinam23:55

       I think we're headed for it. I think that there's a, a time lag or delay, and I think the thing with your thesis, the, th- the docility hypothesis, is that it's correct, but the only element it's missing is a impetus towards violence, a galvanizing cause as it were. I guess that's how I'll term it, a galvanizing effort. So e-I'll give an example. So if you look at, um, research done by Scott Atran and Max Abrahms, so these are professors out in, in the United States. I think one guy was at NYU. They found that the vast majority of suicide bombers, in fact all suicide bombers, were male and single. Young males that were single. Um, the vast majority, in fact, all of, um, uh, terrorists were young, male, and single. If we look at captured, captured ISIS records, all of these individuals before they joined ISIS were young male singled, single, and then they got married once they joined ISIS. So you need some sort of galvanizing cause to, to, to sort of bring these docile men, to wake them up in order to engage in violence. And the research on it is quite, is quite phenomenal. I- I was, I was blown away by some of the things that I was looking at. So I'll give you one statistic. So one study looked at, um, percentage increases in single men within a population, and they found that for every 1% increase in single men within a population, the, um, proclivity or the probability of civil war increases by 0.25%.

   20. CWChris Williamson25:20

       (laughs)

   21. VHVincent Harinam25:21

       The, the (laughs) , the number of terrorist attacks increases by something like 0.05 attacks, and the number of people that die in terrorist attacks increases by 0.7 people dead. And, you know, again, this goes back to that notion that you need an impetus to drive people, uh, towards some sort of endeavor, to rouse them into being. It's why, it's why I think Andrew Tate and ISIS have so much in common. I'm not equating them in, in that sort of way. I'm just saying that they galvanize young men, uh, towards a, a specific cause.

   22. CWChris Williamson25:51

       Here is a mission, here is a journey, here is a goal that is grander than yourself. You're not useless. You can contribute.

   23. VHVincent Harinam25:59

       This is right. And, you know, to, to add a few more points here is that there is a historical precedent for polygyny's association that is, um, well, polygyny, you know, we can sort of break that down, but it's more so a surplus of single, uh, young men engaging in violence. So one particular example I can give you in antiquity is, is, um, China in the 18th century. So this is Huaipei. It, it was called the Nian Rebellion of 1850, uh, 1851 to 1863. And essentially what had happened in Huaipei was that there was a massive famine. There was a infanticide, and the ratio of men to women was 126 men to 100 women, which meant that there was an immense surplus of men. And all these men that were socioeconomically poor and deprived had to defer marriage by around six years because of this surplus. And I think 25% of them didn't end up getting married, and this was also affected by the polygynous practices of the rich. So, so rich men in Huaipei, China, accounted for about 10% of the marriage, even though they accounted for maybe 1% of the population, something like that. And what this led to was massive riots and, and, and roving bands of thieves and criminals that would go around the Chinese countryside assaulting people. We see a similar example in medieval Portugal, where, uh, I think you know of this example.

   24. CWChris Williamson27:18

       It's my favorite one.

   25. VHVincent Harinam27:19

       It's your favorite one. So medieval Portugal sees, uh, a, I think it was 112 men for every woman, and because of primogeniture and, and first son rights, the firstborn son was the one that would inherit and be able to marry, which meant that you had a cohort of second-born sons and poor men that were sort of listless. They didn't have a partner. So the, the, um, the monarchy in Portugal decided to ship all of these surplus men out to conquest, out to wars overseas so they could get that aggression out there a- a- as a means of conquest and, uh, colonialism.

   26. CWChris Williamson27:51

       Well, get the aggression off Portugal mostly.

   27. VHVincent Harinam27:54

       Exactly. Because they, because I suppose the, the leaders at that time knew that these men were, were the, the, um, the linchpin towards revolution and change. And their opponents knew that in order to, to, to quickly change the political regime, to kill their enemies, to kill the ones in power, they would have to galvanize these men to action, uh, give them some sort of, um, prize or, uh, benefit or incentive to engage in political violence, which is very easy.

   28. CWChris Williamson28:19

       Yeah, I'm looking at this here. Uh, "A landmark study of 500 high-risk males in Boston by criminologists John Laub and Robert Sampson-"

   29. VHVincent Harinam28:28

       Sampson, yep.

   30. CWChris Williamson28:29

       "... found, found that marriage reduced the odds of criminal activity by a whopping 35%. This was corroborated by another major study of 400 London men who found a 44% increase in criminal activity during periods when men were single or divorced. Furthermore, men who stayed married saw an 80% decrease in their offending rate. Finally, a meta-analysis of the schola- scholarly literature found a negative association between marriage and crime in 78% of eligible studies." There's also an amazing one

5. 28:58 – 34:24

   Can Marriage Solve Today’s Male Problems?

   1. CWChris Williamson28:58

      that I learned from Roy Baumeister.

   2. VHVincent Harinam29:00

      Mm-hmm.

   3. CWChris Williamson29:00

      So they got men to cross the road and looked at how far the nearest car was to them when they did it, and men were either crossing the road in the presence of women or without the presence of women.

   4. VHVincent Harinam29:14

      (laughs) .

   5. CWChris Williamson29:14

      And in the presence of women, shock, horror, it was way closer. The car was half the distance away that they would do, and they were just prepared. So risk-taking behavior very much is informed by women, and wives very much do domesticate husbands.

   6. VHVincent Harinam29:29

      Absolutely. Absolutely. There's a lot of studies that, that tell you... Okay, well, fair enough. The, the... I'll just make this point is that there, there's one caveat with these studies, and it's, it's the age in which the men get married. But the, the, the, the overall study was that men's, uh, level of testosterone drops when they have children. Now, is that mediated or is that the case because they have children and they're married, or is that because they're of an age where their testosterone begins to drop? That's the question. But I, even still, I would say that that's, that's quite a, an important study with regard to the pacifying effect of a family on a man. And the two studies that you've mentioned, um, at least the criminological studies are linchpin landmark studies within criminology. So Sampson and Laub, OG criminologists have, have, you know, run the gauntlet in terms of, uh, great studies. David Farrington, who did that study in London was a former colleague of mine at Cambridge. He's renowned for these sort of studies, and, and these are the sort of studies that, that, that really bring the notion of marriage into a perspective as a force for, um, reducing potential violence in the future.

   7. CWChris Williamson30:28

      ... also, obviously, marriage means that you are less likely to grow up in a single parent household. And I'm sure that you as a criminologist have some terrifying statistics about the different kinds of crime outcomes and risk profiles for men, boys who grow up in single parent households versus two parent households.

   8. VHVincent Harinam30:47

      100%. So that's the second wing of the argument with relation to future violence, is that there will probably be a cohort of young men that grow up without fathers that engage in criminal activity. One study that I looked at found that 85% of prison inmates grew up in a single fa- uh, single mother household. Uh, you know, general increases, so 1% increases in male figures, not necessarily fathers, but male figures within, uh, neighborhoods decreased the crime rate by a substantive margin, or something like 0:5%, uh, off the top of my head. It could be lower, it could be higher. But the point being here is that the presence of, of two parents within a household is substantive and incredibly impactful when it comes to not just deterring young boys away from crime, but improving life circumstances. So for example, uh, single mother households have $40,000 less income relative to stable, uh, two parent households. There's, there's rates of, of depression that are higher in single parent households. Um, graduation from high- high school, getting into post secondary institutions, living in poverty, you're at a complete disadvantage if you live in a single parent household. And sort of just to contextualize this in its entirety, 41%, I, it's either 40 or 41% of children in the United States are currently born out of wedlock, and one in five children in the United States, so that mean 21% of them live in single parent households. That is single mother households, to be more specific.

   9. CWChris Williamson32:12

      Yeah. I-

   10. VHVincent Harinam32:12

       Staggering.

   11. CWChris Williamson32:13

       ... I had Melissa Carny on the show, have you seen that? The Two Parent Advantage? It's coming out in about two weeks time.

   12. VHVincent Harinam32:20

       I have not seen that book yet.

   13. CWChris Williamson32:20

       You'd love it. So she, uh, she's been on with Rob, um, and uh, Rob introduced me to her book, and uh, I had her on yesterday. Dude, it's shocking. Like she's a policy wonk type from like Washington, and, uh, uh, sh- uh, straight up economics, right? It's just raw economics is what she's looking at. And the outcomes are really, really scary. And then, you know, to fall back in the kind of social justice performative empathy line, I think that many people from the high faluting institutions, from the, uh, parts of government that could instantiate policies that would be able to help these people feel like they're being ...

   14. VHVincent Harinam33:06

       Mm-hmm.

   15. CWChris Williamson33:06

       Like they're patronizing-

   16. VHVincent Harinam33:08

       Yeah.

   17. CWChris Williamson33:08

       ... m- m- especially minority groups. You know, this is specifically a problem in the black community, uh, this is specifically a prob- Like it's, it's not people that are, are college educated.

   18. VHVincent Harinam33:17

       Mm-hmm.

   19. CWChris Williamson33:17

       If you've got a four-year college degree, none of this stuff touches you, and this is-

   20. VHVincent Harinam33:21

       No, not at all. You, you probably won't even get divorced, right? The, the cohort of, uh, the number one cohort that has the lowest risk of divorce are college-educate, educated women.

   21. CWChris Williamson33:31

       Yep.

   22. VHVincent Harinam33:32

       Yep.

   23. CWChris Williamson33:32

       Yep. Uh-

   24. VHVincent Harinam33:32

       And th- the thing is r- Chris, is I think that it, it, it's actually racist in and of itself to, to view th- these views of these high faluting individuals as actually a soft form of bigotry. It's a soft form of racism. To look at these people and say, "Well, ah, you know, they can't get married. Uh, i- i- it's okay if they don't have intact families, it's just how they do things." Well-

   25. CWChris Williamson33:50

       Yeah.

   26. VHVincent Harinam33:51

       ... that, that's ridiculous. That's ridiculous. I mean, Thomas Sowell has, has looked at this issue in, in a great level of, of, of um, a, a great level in, in, in his books, um, or at least one of his books, uh, White, White, um, Liberals and, and Black Rednecks. I believe I have that, had that mixed up. But he looked at rates of, of intact black families and the success that they had, and, and it's only when the Model Cities Act came into effect in the 1960s United States that we saw a degradation of the black family structure, and therefore, uh, increases in crime within black communities.

   27. CWChris Williamson34:23

       Yeah, that's

6. 34:24 – 40:50

   How Close Are We to a Massive Male Crisis?

   1. CWChris Williamson34:24

      interesting. Okay, so going back to male sedation hypothesis, young male syndrome, is it your belief then that the right galvanizing activation energy flash point thing could light what appears to be kind of like the materials, the foundation, the tinder of a particularly disgruntled group of young men? Is that kind of what your concern is moving forward?

   2. VHVincent Harinam34:50

      Precisely. Precisely. I would say exactly that. We are one match being lit away from a massive crisis. And I know I stated some examples in antiquity, but there are modern examples to, to really i- implicate this particular crisis. So China would be the operative example. So, uh, you know, you, you're well aware of the, um, the, what was it called? The, uh, the one child policy in China, uh, yes? Uh, the one child policy in China resulted in an approximate, uh, number, what is it? It's 80, 80 million lost women, so which means that there's a massive surplus of, of young Chinese men that are now coming to age, they're single. And what the statistics indicate is that five, there is a five to 6% increase in violent crime and property crime in China because of this surplus, um, uh, uh, amount of young single men. There's another study that indicated that between 1988 and 2004, one seventh of the rise in, in property and violent crime i- within China was due to the surplus of men between the ages of 16 and 25. Uh, here's another one I'll give you. Uh, I'm just listing statistics at this, at this point but, um, in Mexico, for every, uh, one m- f- for the decrease of one man per 100 within the population, there is a, uh, uh, commensurate 0.43 reduction in homicides per 100,000. So less men you have within a population surplus wise, less homicides you have.

   3. CWChris Williamson36:17

      For the people who don't understand why when we don't have a massive gender disparity here, like it's around about 50/50 men to women, we haven't had infanticide because everybody wants to have a male first born or whatever-Can you explain why it's the case that we have these disengaged out-of-relationship men if it is around about 50/50?

   4. VHVincent Harinam36:46

      (inhales deeply) I guess you're talking about, um, the imbalance of women that are in a relationship and, uh, the commensurate number of the, or the associate number of men that are not in relationships des- despite the 50/50. Well, I think the reason, uh, is probably because of a soft form of polygyny where you have a, a small number of men or an outsize, uh, not quite an outsize number, but a decent size number of men within the population that have relationships or dalliances with these women, who think that th- that they're in a relationship, which means that you have a cohort, an increasing cohort of men, perhaps the mi- the majority of men that are not in any sort of relationships. Uh, this actually hearkens back to a historical or a anthropological finding, which was that we have, um, 66% of our ancestors were female. Something like 70 to, to 66 or 60 to 70% of our, are female, are ancestors were females. Whereas 30 to 33% of our ancestors were males, which meant that a small number of males in antiquity and ancient times had sex and reproduced with the majority of women. We don't have as many male ancestors as we do female ancestors. And it's the same sort of principle here within the dating market.

   5. CWChris Williamson37:53

      Yes. To put that into a little bit more easy to understand numbers, I think it's right 80% of women reproduced, 40% of men reproduced. It's aroundabout-

   6. VHVincent Harinam38:04

      Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

   7. CWChris Williamson38:04

      ... it's still the two to one, but that's-

   8. VHVincent Harinam38:06

      Exactly.

   9. CWChris Williamson38:06

      ... within the, the overall population.

   10. VHVincent Harinam38:08

       Yeah. Yeah.

   11. CWChris Williamson38:09

       So-

   12. VHVincent Harinam38:09

       One... Sorry, go ahead. I was just gonna state another statistic, but-

   13. CWChris Williamson38:13

       Hit me.

   14. VHVincent Harinam38:13

       ... uh, I would think, well, one, one thing I looked at was that, um, one anthropologist found that for every 17 females in, uh, for every, every 17 female ancestors of ours that reproduce, one male ancestor, ancestor of ours reproduced.

   15. CWChris Williamson38:28

       Wow.

   16. VHVincent Harinam38:29

       So it's quite an imbalance between the two.

   17. CWChris Williamson38:31

       Yeah, that's huge. Um, okay, so if, uh, soft polygyny, which is one man capturing the attention of many women... Now we're not seeing, you know, uh, polycules with just one Dan Bilzerian-

   18. VHVincent Harinam38:46

       (laughs)

   19. CWChris Williamson38:46

       ... floating around. But, you know-

   20. VHVincent Harinam38:48

       With, with eight women, yes.

   21. CWChris Williamson38:49

       Correct. In a, in a world that's got casual sex and situationships and we're just seeing each other kind of label-less relationships going on, it's quite easy to see how one guy could capture the attention of, of many women. Uh, Louise Perry calls them digital harems, uh, when it comes to online dating. And, uh, even if it's not that, you know, one guy of high value cycling through multiple women throughout his 20s, throughout his 30s, throughout his 40s and now I'm mid-40s and I'm finally going to decide to settle down, um, can leave a wake of sort of broken hearts that are kind of left for other men to pick up, which I think is one of the criticisms of the more extreme sides of the red pill, uh-

   22. VHVincent Harinam39:38

       Mm-hmm.

   23. CWChris Williamson39:38

       ... and, and manosphere advice, which is if the goal is to kind of raise up the well-being of men, a lot of the advice around how to date women creates precisely the broken, used and discarded women that men are now going to have to pick up and piece back together.

   24. VHVincent Harinam39:52

       Mm-hmm.

   25. CWChris Williamson39:52

       I- i- it's, it's a... At its worst, it's a philosophy that benefits some men at the expense of everybody else.

   26. VHVincent Harinam40:01

       That's right. The, I, I, I think that's entirely correct. That critique of the manosphere, at least the red pill, is 100% correct. They create the problem with the ideology that they espouse, that they rail against, which is y- young women that are having sex with multiple men that are incredibly promiscuous. Well, you're the ones that are preaching about having multiple sexual partners, that is going out with multiple women. So you're essentially creating this cohort of women that don't want to have a relationship that sim- that apparently use men for their resources. So i- i- it's, it's, it's staggering to me and I do think that this is a serious problem that's happening in, in modern society. Although there is evidence to suggest that there is, of course, a fertility crisis and a crisis around sex where we're no longer having it, a sexual recession as it were.

   27. CWChris Williamson40:49

       I found...

7. 40:50 – 47:44

   Why Aren’t Men Approaching Women Anymore?

   1. CWChris Williamson40:50

      This is a, uh, Alexander Date Psych stat. Uh, he's coming back on soon. He's like, "I, if I could do a dream round table for dating, I would probably get you, Alex, and William with Rob." Like you four as a round table would just be phenomenal.

   2. VHVincent Harinam41:09

      (laughs)

   3. CWChris Williamson41:09

      To sit you guys down with enough, enough caffeine and, and four hours and a few good mics. But he has, um, h- he did a, a really, really big study. Um, 50% of men aged 18 to 30 say that they haven't approached a woman in the last year.

   4. VHVincent Harinam41:22

      That's not surprising. That's not surprising at all. I, I, I, I'm not even shocked by that. I mean-

   5. CWChris Williamson41:28

      Mm-hmm.

   6. VHVincent Harinam41:28

      ... there, there's a Pew Research study out there that, that sort of corroborated w- well, actually the same finding that o- of the men that are not in a relationship, it's something like 53% of them, 57% of that number reported not being able to approach a woman or being afraid to approach a woman as the reason why they're not in a relationship.

   7. CWChris Williamson41:47

      Oh, you need to send me that. I haven't seen that one. I thought you were gonna cite the one that said 55% of men between the ages of 18 and 30 say that they're not looking for casual or long-term relationships.

   8. VHVincent Harinam41:56

      Mm-hmm.

   9. CWChris Williamson41:56

      But we don't know what, which of these are crossing over the top, right? Like, presumably a lot of the men that don't want casual or long-term relationships are not approaching women.

   10. VHVincent Harinam42:04

       Yes.

   11. CWChris Williamson42:04

       But some non-insignificant number of people who do want to be in relationships are also not approaching women. So you have this very... This is kind of the interesting thing about men at the moment, among like a million other interesting things-

   12. VHVincent Harinam42:17

       (laughs)

   13. CWChris Williamson42:17

       ... is that you have a culture of guys who want to, you know, kind of take life by the horns. They feel like maybe antiquity would have been better for them, uh, that the modern world has kind of robbed them of something in terms of meaning or purpose or connection, uh, that there is an imbalance and some unfairness going on, and they want to kind of grab life by the horns and finally get a purpose.

   14. VHVincent Harinam42:39

       Mm-hmm.

   15. CWChris Williamson42:40

       ... at the same time as being sedated heavily by porn, video games, social media screens, weed, convenience. Uh, so they, they're, sort of, pushing and pulling in, in... At least pushing ideologically and pulling in terms of what they're doing with their lifestyle, their stated and revealed preferences. And then when it comes to the women thing as well, you know, a lot of the time the guys will, uh, applaud a, a, an Andrew Tate, somebody who really does th- forge their own path when it comes to women, and I think he's got, you know, a number of kids by maybe a, a number of women, and he's doing all this stuff and it doesn't slow him down, and he'll go do this thing. But then, you know, how many of the 50% of men that haven't approached a woman in the last year are a part of that cohort? And then, "Oh," you know, "'MeToo,' 'MeToo,' it went to try and sanitize men and it sterilized them instead," and all the rest of it.

   16. VHVincent Harinam43:33

       Yes. Yes.

   17. CWChris Williamson43:34

       I, I, I don't disagree. I, I think that, you know, the, the fallout of an overly zealous MeToo movement has been catastrophic for women's dating desires.

   18. VHVincent Harinam43:42

       Com- completely. Completely. I, I'll give you a statistic there. They... It was either a Harris poll or an American Studies poll, I forget the exact polling institution, but they found... No, it was Pew. It was Pew. Uh, Pew (laughs) , it's always Pew. Pew found that of, of the individuals that they interviewed with regard to the, the MeToo movement, 69% of men said that it was delat- it was, it had a deleterious effect on men's ability to know how to interact with women. 61% of women felt the same way. So, of the cohort that they interviewed, which is supposed to be representative of, ref- representative of the population, the vast majority of people view the MeToo movement as negative towards interactions, romantic interactions, between women, men and women because it, it, sort of, kneecapped men from taking the initiative and, um, asking a woman out, because that could be viewed under the strictures of MeToo as harassment.

   19. CWChris Williamson44:34

       Yeah. Yeah, 20% of Gen Z say that a man approaching a woman in person sometimes or always constitutes harassment. And that's only going to continue to get worse as people live life more vicariously through their screens. This aversion to doing anything in the real world, uh, i- is... Y- there's th- I remember I was out for dinner with a friend and I mentioned I was bored of him, and I said that we should go and talk to-

   20. VHVincent Harinam44:57

       (laughs)

   21. CWChris Williamson44:57

       ... talk to those girls over the fire si- and this is years ago now. Um, and he looked at me like I'd suggested going and, like, hitting them over the head with a hammer and dumping their bodies in a river. He said, "I have been told under no circumstances that I am to go up and talk to a woman." I'm like, "Dude, like, you are putting yourself on the back foot, uh, with regards to, to dating." And, and, yeah, i- i- it's so strange, uh, uh, such a hydra head, this, sort of, generalized risk aversion that everybody has where-

   22. VHVincent Harinam45:26

       Mm-hmm.

   23. CWChris Williamson45:26

       ... whatever the safest, lowest number of potential negative outcome approach strategy is the one that's right.

   24. VHVincent Harinam45:34

       Yes.

   25. CWChris Williamson45:34

       That's the one that we should go for because you're not optimizing for what's best. You're optimizing for what causes the least number of potentially bad things. And I, I, I haven't said this on the show before. I'm gonna try and thread the needle, but if I'm clumsy, please forgive me. How many, how many sexual assaults... Actually, no. How many non-approaches by a guy to a woman is one sexual assault worth? Is it two million?

   26. VHVincent Harinam46:07

       Mm-hmm.

   27. CWChris Williamson46:08

       Is it five million? Is it 20? Is it zero? Because there's a number, right? It could be, and I'm completely open to, it's an unlimited number. No one woman should ever, ever have to face any sexual assault.

   28. VHVincent Harinam46:21

       Absolutely. Absolutely.

   29. CWChris Williamson46:21

       And there is no, um, uh, cash value of men not approaching women that would go with that. But you can see why it's an interesting question, because you think-

   30. VHVincent Harinam46:30

       Mm-hmm.
8. 47:44 – 52:56

   Should Polygony Be Encouraged to Increase Reproduction?

   1. VHVincent Harinam47:44

   2. CWChris Williamson47:44

      Mads Laursen, you sent me a paper of his, and he's actually coming on the show in a couple of months. I met him at HBES, the Human Behavior and Evolutionary Society conference a couple of months ago. "Sex ratio studies suggest that women's perception of there being few acceptable partners activates a polygynous mindset, which, in prosperous monogamous societies, drives promiscuity to the detriment of pair bonding. More than six million years of hominin evolution under promiscuous, polygynous, and monogamous regimes shaped mate preferences that evoke different cultural and behavioral responses as environments change. The churches' imposition of lifelong monogamy contributed to the emergence in the modern world, but if this world's gender equal societies no longer motivate reproduction, being more open to polygyny could be worth considering as a means for increasing fertility."

   3. VHVincent Harinam48:30

      Here we go.

   4. CWChris Williamson48:31

      What do we think, Vincent?

   5. VHVincent Harinam48:32

      Here we go. Here we go. So just to break down the argument for the audience, the fundamental question we're asking here is whether or not polygyny would be able to end or reverse the fertility crisis.... whether relationships or marriages where there is, uh, one man married to multiple women, in this case, that would be polygyny, uh, yes, polygyny would be conducive to more children being born. And I guess we can sort of break this conversation down into two parts. The first part would be, well, what is the historical precedent regarding, uh, uh, polygyny, uh, polygyny or polygamy and whether or not it actually is conducive to increases in fertility rate? So my contention, I think that a lot of evolutionary psychologists, so your Amira Grossbards, your Robert Wrights, your, uh, Matt Ridleys would probably agree with me in, in saying that polygyny is actually, or polygamy, is actually the norm and not the exception. It is actually monogamy that is the exception. That is the newfangled, uh, in- invention in terms of the institution of marriage. So just to break down the historical evidence, there was a, uh, American psychologist by the name of George Murdock who wrote a very influential book, uh, called the Ethnographic Atlas, where he surveyed 1,170 societies. And what he found was that 850 of those societies partook in polygamy of some f- of some kind. They were polygamists in nature. Now the interesting thing now is that another anthropologist by the name of Francoise Nielsen took Murdock's data and reanalyzed it, and he wanted to identify how many of these societies were monogamous. And so what he found was that it was something like 21.5% of herding cultures were monogamous, 6.5% of advanced horticultural systems were monogamous, uh, 10.5% of hunter-gatherers were monogamous, uh, 2.1% of fishing cultures were monogamous. All of this is to say that monogamy is- is again, is- is not the rule but the exception. In our species-

   6. CWChris Williamson50:31

      Just to interject.

   7. VHVincent Harinam50:31

      Sure.

   8. CWChris Williamson50:31

      J- j- just to interject there, uh, wh- what you notice at least even in those sort of four different types of societies is that as the ability to accumulate wealth and resources increases-

   9. VHVincent Harinam50:40

      Increases.

   10. CWChris Williamson50:41

       ... monogamy decreases.

   11. VHVincent Harinam50:42

       Mm-hmm.

   12. CWChris Williamson50:42

       Because if you are a nomadic hunter-gatherer type person, how are you gonna support two wives, bro?

   13. VHVincent Harinam50:49

       Right. That's it.

   14. CWChris Williamson50:50

       Like, your- the meal that you eat is what you kill tomorrow.

   15. VHVincent Harinam50:53

       Excellent observation, Chris. Excellent observation. So that's- that- that exactly, that in and of itself is a- is a fundamental truth of these- of these statistics, that the more wealth that is- that is sort of distributed across a society, and I guess the less centralized it is, uh, the more likely it is for us to have a monogamous society. Uh, but- but that- but that being said, just making the general point here around, uh, monogamy and polygyny, I do think that our s- our species is more, uh, I say, geared towards that, naturally geared towards that in terms of a factory setting that is polygyny. So, uh, Joe Hendrick, I believe you had him on the podcast a little while ago, so this-

   16. CWChris Williamson51:28

       Weirdest people in the world. Joe's great.

   17. VHVincent Harinam51:30

       Y- yeah, he's awesome. He's a Harvard psychologist, for, uh, the audience, uh, to know, and, uh, he often conducts studies of his undergraduates, uh, particularly women, and he often asks the question, "Well, if you were given the choice of being the second wife of a billionaire or the primary exclusive wife of an average man, what would you choose?" What do you think, in terms of percentage of women, chose to be the second wife of a billionaire, Chris?

   18. CWChris Williamson51:54

       Do they think that their answers are going to be seen by the rest of the class?

   19. VHVincent Harinam51:58

       Uh, let's just forget about that.

   20. CWChris Williamson52:00

       If they did s- think that their answers-

   21. VHVincent Harinam52:01

       Mm-hmm.

   22. CWChris Williamson52:01

       ... were gonna be seen by the rest of the class, it would be way, way, way toward the monogamous thing?

   23. VHVincent Harinam52:05

       Yes, completely, completely private and anonymous.

   24. CWChris Williamson52:08

       Right. Oh. Psh. I would still think maybe only like 30 to 40% of women would say the billionaire at an absolute top end. I can't imagine more than that.

   25. VHVincent Harinam52:18

       70.

   26. CWChris Williamson52:19

       Uh.

   27. VHVincent Harinam52:21

       (laughs)

   28. CWChris Williamson52:22

       That's-

   29. VHVincent Harinam52:22

       70%.

   30. CWChris Williamson52:23

       Elon, keep pumping them out, baby.
9. 52:56 – 1:00:36

   How Inner Citadels Are Destroying Society

   1. CWChris Williamson52:56

      all the way back. Did I tell you this one? Isaiah Berlin's idea that Rob Henderson taught me? This is fucking-

   2. VHVincent Harinam53:01

      Mm.

   3. CWChris Williamson53:01

      ... awesome. Let me ... citadel. So Isaiah Berlin says, "When the natural road toward human fulfillment is blocked, human beings retreat into themselves, become involved-"

   4. VHVincent Harinam53:12

      Mm.

   5. CWChris Williamson53:12

      "... in themselves and try to create inwardly that world which some evil fate has denied them externally. If you cannot obtain from the world that which you really desire, you must teach yourself not to want it. In short, if you cannot get what you want, you must teach yourself to want what you can get. This is a very frequent form of spiritual retreat in depth into a kind of inner citadel in which you try to lock yourself up against all the fearful ills of the world." And Rob explained it in a simpler way. He said, "If your leg is wounded, you can try to treat the leg. If you cannot, then you cut off the leg and announce that the-"

   6. VHVincent Harinam53:42

      (laughs)

   7. CWChris Williamson53:42

      "... desire for legs is misguided and must be subdued."

   8. VHVincent Harinam53:45

      (laughs)

   9. CWChris Williamson53:46

      So-

   10. VHVincent Harinam53:47

       Wow.

   11. CWChris Williamson53:48

       ... it's like the, it's the, "I don't need to lose weight. These airplane seats are too, are too narrow," argument, right?

   12. VHVincent Harinam53:54

       Maybe some bath waters, right?

   13. CWChris Williamson53:55

       Yeah. So what you see, uh, what we have seen is an increasing number of different retreats all the way back is, you know, um, "I don't need a man. Uh, children don't need a father in the home to be able to raise them." That is an inner citadel retreat of, "I have struggled to find a man, a father, who is stuck about after we've had a child together." Um, from guys, from the guys' side, uh, "Just hold on, boys. The sex robots are coming," the entire MGTOW movement, um, you know, all of the sigma male, lone grindset bro culture, all of that is a retreat from, "I don't need to be hurt by other people. I don't need to be hurt and betrayed by friends or by partners or- or- or by society at large." And don't get me wrong, dude. I s- I understand and have massive sympathy for all of these people that have retreated into it, but I do think it's important for-... the people that are doing that to understand where this compulsion comes from, that this is them teaching themselves to get what they can, uh, to want what they can get, not to get what they want. And, you know, with our own desires and what it is that we truly feel, we, we are so duplicitous to ourselves that we don't even know that we're being duplicitous, right?

   14. VHVincent Harinam55:08

       Mm-hmm.

   15. CWChris Williamson55:08

       W- w- it's unbelievably easy to make the world believe a lie if you believe it first.

   16. VHVincent Harinam55:12

       Right.

   17. CWChris Williamson55:13

       So, uh, that's, that's an effective way to do it. But, you know, we've got all of these different retreats. One of them you saw with that, uh, TikTok girl with, like, the blonde bob, and she was wearing, like, 1950s, uh, it's the tradwife, the tradwife movement that she-

   18. VHVincent Harinam55:27

       Oh, that meme.

   19. CWChris Williamson55:29

       Yeah.

   20. VHVincent Harinam55:29

       Oh, yeah.

   21. CWChris Williamson55:29

       She even dressed in this sort of frilly, floral kind of dress thing. Anyway, so she-

   22. VHVincent Harinam55:35

       Can I ask you a question-

   23. CWChris Williamson55:36

       Yeah.

   24. VHVincent Harinam55:36

       ... re- regarding tradwives? Just a straight question. What trad- traditional Catholic wife, j- just a trad Catholic woman is on TikTok behaving like that?

   25. CWChris Williamson55:44

       Uh, yeah. Well, that's a good question.

   26. VHVincent Harinam55:46

       That's-

   27. CWChris Williamson55:46

       And she doesn't mean-

   28. VHVincent Harinam55:46

       That's the thing, right?

   29. CWChris Williamson55:47

       I don't mean that kind-

   30. VHVincent Harinam55:48

       This is all meme. This is-
10. 1:00:36 – 1:04:05

    Challenges & Benefits to Adopting Polygony

    1. CWChris Williamson1:00:36

       change, the ferti- fertility change that occurs due to polygyny and some of the challenges.

    2. VHVincent Harinam1:00:40

       I think the literature on it is quite scattered, so there really is no definitive evidence as to whether or not, uh, polygyny or polygamy... I guess we're kind of flip-flopping between these concept. If it does have a substantive increase or impact, I should say, on, on fertility rates, I would say that the answer is probably no.So, the historical examples that I've looked at would indicate this. So, uh, a study was conducted in Ghana looking at, um, fertility rates in, in 1988. So, they, they were taking Department of Health Service records and trying to identify whether or not, uh, polygynous marriages equated to more children than monogamous marriages. And Ghana is an interesting example because it's, it's one of a few West African countries, well, one of few countries on the planet where 30% of marriages are polygamous. And what that study found was that there was no difference between the couples, that is, uh, polygamists and monogamists in terms of the amount of children had. The only mediating factor that determined the total fertility rate of a woman was how old she was at the point she was married.

    3. CWChris Williamson1:01:42

       Mm-hmm.

    4. VHVincent Harinam1:01:42

       So, the younger a woman is, the more likely she is to have women over her, her reproductive lifetime, which makes complete sense. So, the only conceivable reason as to why, uh, polygamy would have a, a, an impact on fertility rates is because it may influence women to get married to a, a, a, a resource-rich man at a younger age. That's the only possible explanation. But even still, when PubMed, uh, sort of accumulated statistics of West African countries, they looked at Senegal, Togo, Guinea, Niger, Nigeria, uh, and, um, uh, Ghana, and again, they compared, uh, the rates of total fertility between monogamously married women and polygous- uh, polygynous, um, women in polygamous marriages, and they found that there's no difference in the total fertility rate between these two marriage institutions in these West African countries that higher- that had rates of, of polygamy above 30% in terms of all marriages. The difference was about 0.1 to 0.5. In fact, in Ghana and Burkina Faso, the rates of total fertility were higher, uh, within monogamous marriages.

    5. CWChris Williamson1:02:51

       Women in poly- polygynous unions desire more children than women in monogamous unions. However, they do not have high fertility rates than women in monogamous unions.

    6. VHVincent Harinam1:03:02

       This is correct. And they're less likely to use contraception or birth control.

    7. CWChris Williamson1:03:06

       Birth control. Yeah.

    8. VHVincent Harinam1:03:06

       That's right. So there is, there is no evidence for it.

    9. CWChris Williamson1:03:08

       Okay, so how the fuck is polygyny gonna fix the birthrate problem, then? I thought this was your golden pill.

    10. VHVincent Harinam1:03:15

        It's, it's not. (laughs)

    11. CWChris Williamson1:03:15

        I thought this was your- I thought this was your magic bullet that was going to solve all our problems, Zaid.

    12. VHVincent Harinam1:03:19

        (laughs) My golden pill? Are you trying to get me canceled again, bro? (laughs)

    13. CWChris Williamson1:03:21

        (laughs)

    14. VHVincent Harinam1:03:22

        No, this is not, this is not my golden pill. I, I don't, I, it's such a silly argument to make. It's, it's, I, it's... I, you know what I despise the most, Chris? It's when people present public policies that don't have any sort of empirical backing, or the evidence on it is entirely scattered and they don't consider second and third ord- third order effects. So let's say, for example, that we did institute this policy of polygamy. We made it legal and it obviously doesn't work, but what is that effect going to, what does that, what effect is that going to have on crime rates with regard to, to listless men no longer in marriages? It's gonna-

    15. CWChris Williamson1:03:55

        Worse in today's normal.

    16. VHVincent Harinam1:03:55

        It's gonna be catastr- Exactly, it's going to be catastrophic. But I suppose we should turn to solutions. We should have a discussion around that and what we could potentially do. Have you looked at any

11. 1:04:05 – 1:09:29

    Hungary’s Policies to Increase Birth Rates

    1. VHVincent Harinam1:04:05

       countries or cases where they've increased their fertility rate?

    2. CWChris Williamson1:04:09

       Hungary spent some ungodly proportion of their national GDP, uh, is Hungary the place-

    3. VHVincent Harinam1:04:15

       Four point ... That's right.

    4. CWChris Williamson1:04:17

       They-

    5. VHVincent Harinam1:04:17

       4.9% of their national GDP went towards family and, and childcare spending.

    6. CWChris Williamson1:04:21

       And they did 25%, 50% and 100% discount-

    7. VHVincent Harinam1:04:27

       Like, absolutely.

    8. CWChris Williamson1:04:27

       ... for the first, second and third plus child, and that was-

    9. VHVincent Harinam1:04:31

       Mm-hmm.

    10. CWChris Williamson1:04:31

        ... discounted exclusively to the woman's personal income tax or the family income tax for the rest of time.

    11. VHVincent Harinam1:04:38

        Yeah, so I, I'll break it down i- in its entirety. So Hungary was the exact example I was going for. The Orbán administration has given a lot of flak, but by God do they have some good policies with relation to families and incentivizing children being born. So there's, uh, there's something called the hung- the fundamental law of Hungary which stipulates that the Hungarian government must have a vested interest in supporting Hungarians who desire to have children. Which means that Hungary, in 2019, uh, devoted, as I said, 4.9% of their national GDP towards family and, and childcare spending. Uh, the OECD average, uh, for that, for that type of spending is 2.55% of the national GDP. So Hungary is miles above in terms of spending. And in terms of the actual policies, they have one particular policy, it was the loan policy that you're referring to here, where, uh, any married couple where the woman is between the ages of 18 and 40 can take out a general purpose loan, interest free. And if within the fi- first five years of taking out that loan a child is born, the loan continues to be interest free and the payment is expanded or suspended for another three years. If a second child is born, then 30% of that, uh, of the remaining principal is taken off the books and it's expanded for another three years. If a third child is born within that span, the remaining principal is wiped off the map entirely, so it's gone. And, uh, I can list another set of policies that they've implemented. They, they have, and you know, actually just to go back to that, to stipulate the, the total loan, it was like 31,250 euros that you could take out interest free. But another policy that they have is with relation to a tax reimbursement. So every family, uh, if they have a child, can have a tax reimbursement of 196 Th- thousand Hungarian Forints, which is equivalent, I think if you do the, the conversion, it- it's about 550 US dollars every single year. Now, you know, maybe for the audience, 550 is not a lot of money, but if you take into con- in- into consideration that 30 per- 37% of Americans do not have $500 to $1,000 saved up in terms of emergency spending, it's a lot of money. And, um, I think the most popular, uh, policy that they have out there is reg- is with regard to taxation. So, if a woman in Hungary has four or more children, she is exempt from taxation until the age of retirement. So she pays no income tax whatsoever. And there's like a 15% flat tax in Hungary.

    12. CWChris Williamson1:07:07

        ... what did that do to their birth rate?

    13. VHVincent Harinam1:07:11

        It increased it. So, uh, from the early 2000s, I get the- l- I guess the late 1990s, throughout the 2010s, Hungary's bir- birth rates, or at least- sorry, the- the fertility rate, the total fertility rate was 1.3, right? So, it would remain f- uh, stagnant and flat. Orbán comes into power in 2010 or 2011, Fidesz wins, and these policies were implemented in, uh, 2015. In 2010, when Orbán was in power, uh, the fertility rate in Hungary was 1.3. Now, in 2023, the fertility rate is 1.54. So, i- it hasn't had a massive increase, but it's had h- it- it has had an increase. So, we had 10 years of stagnation, 20 years of stagnation, and all of a sudden, these policies are implemented and you see a growth in the fertility rate. There is evidence that this stuff works.

    14. CWChris Williamson1:08:02

        Yes. However, we haven't got ourselves back to 2.1.

    15. VHVincent Harinam1:08:07

        Mm-hmm. That's right.

    16. CWChris Williamson1:08:07

        We haven't really even got ourselves close back to 2.1-

    17. VHVincent Harinam1:08:09

        That's right.

    18. CWChris Williamson1:08:10

        ... and it's cost 5% of global GDP, uh, ever-

    19. VHVincent Harinam1:08:14

        Mm-hmm.

    20. CWChris Williamson1:08:14

        ... uh, national GDP. So, in terms of interventions, yeah, Hungary are- are trying some things, but I think that there are more, uh, fundamental forces at play here, and it does seem a little bit like trying to swim upstream.

    21. VHVincent Harinam1:08:27

        Absolutely. So, just referencing the- the, you know, fertility statistics a bit more internationally, uh, there's a study by Valset in 2020, and they found that 23 countries would have their population reduced by 50% of more or more by 2100, and 34, uh, countries would have their population reduced by 25 to 50% by 2100. 150 countries will no longer be able to sustain their current population by 2050, and this is because they're no longer having children, um, at a replacement rate of 2.1 or whatever it is, 2.33 globally.

    22. CWChris Williamson1:09:03

        Yeah, for every 100 Koreans, for every 100 South Koreans that exist now, there will be four great-grandchildren.

    23. VHVincent Harinam1:09:10

        (gasps)

    24. CWChris Williamson1:09:11

        It's a 96% extinction rate over the next 100 years. It's- it's crazy.

    25. VHVincent Harinam1:09:15

        They're in their low ones, I think. Um-

    26. CWChris Williamson1:09:17

        0.8.

    27. VHVincent Harinam1:09:18

        ... uh, no- yeah, oh my goodness.

    28. CWChris Williamson1:09:20

        Yeah, 0.8. Um, so yeah, we- okay, we have birth rate, bad. We've spoken about it before. Um, birth rate is not good. Have

12. 1:09:29 – 1:13:34

    Vincent’s Ideas for Encouraging Higher Birth Rates

    1. CWChris Williamson1:09:29

       you got anything by way, beyond tax incentives and making childcare more aff- affordable and allowing people to have loans and y- this sort of pyramid scheme, staggering thing, where more babies come out, more money goes in? What else? Have you considered anything? Have you got any more ideas?

    2. VHVincent Harinam1:09:46

       I have to think about it more because the- the issue here is doing research around public policy and- and what to- and what exactly to implement. But I would say that what really will solve this issue is more of a social investment in families, reinvigorating the institution of the family. Because I don't think we care about the family as an institution very much, and it's the reason why society is crumbling. If you look at the Roman Empire, for example, Bryan Ward- Perkins wrote a book called The Rise and Fall of the Roman Empire, where he was looking at, well, the zenith of the Roman Empire and then the collapse, and he said that the reason why the Roman Empire was not able to sustain itself was because it was not able to perpetuate institutions from one generation to the next. Uh, Romans in one generation were un- were not able to pass down the tenets and the importance of an institution to the next generation. The same thing applies to families within the West today. Uh, we are not able to- to instantiate within children why families are important. We're not able to pass down the importance of this institution from one generation to the next. So, it's no surprise why there is a reduction in fertility rate because we, as a society, are individualistic, over indi- in- individualistic to the point of atomization. We no longer care about families. We simply care about ourselves. And so if you- if you only care about yourself, there's no need to have any children. There's no desire to focus on anything but your career and how much money is in your pocket. And that's not to say that these things aren't important. It's obviously important to have money and be able to provide for the people around you. But you can't spend that money if- if you have no family. Who are you gonna spend it on, yourself?

    3. CWChris Williamson1:11:16

       Yeah, you need a pro-mating culture, which I don't think that we have, and it- it's, you know, family is- is totally right. This Melissa Kearney book, Two Parent Advantage, you're gonna love. Um, but more than that, even before that, just the concept that men and women should get along, that they should be compatriots or collaborators as opposed to enemies or competitors or an adversary to be used and discarded or avoided altogether. You know, i- i- it doesn't... From the very, very beginning of men and women interacting with each other, this situation doesn't lend itself to them working well together.

    4. VHVincent Harinam1:11:50

       Mm-hmm.

    5. CWChris Williamson1:11:51

       So yeah, I think cultural, uh, changes, very much needed. Uh, individual agentic change is very much needed. But yeah, I- it's fucking a roll of the dice, man. It's a real sort of coin toss about what's gonna happen. I mean, ultimately, it's not an existential risk, right? Like, I've spoken about population collapse a lot over the last year.

    6. VHVincent Harinam1:12:08

       Mm-hmm.

    7. CWChris Williamson1:12:08

       It's not a genuine existential risk. It's not the same as, like, nanotechnology or bioengineered weapons or AI. Uh, I mean, it's kind of not far off nuclear war 'cause nuclear war wouldn't wipe everybody out. It would just fuck a lot up for a lot of people for a long time. But-

    8. VHVincent Harinam1:12:23

       Yeah, so, uh, uh, an example actually would be, I- I guess it would be like th- those, you know, those Marvel movies where the- the purple guy snaps his fingers and half the people go away. That's actually the outcome.

    9. CWChris Williamson1:12:33

       (laughs) That's not far off.

    10. VHVincent Harinam1:12:34

        Yeah.

    11. CWChris Williamson1:12:34

        It's al- it's just a bit more protracted. Yeah, but the- the thing is as well, like, the quality of life for people, the only way that this doesn't absolutely annihilate quality of life for people is if we have AI that can supplant the current s-

    12. VHVincent Harinam1:12:49

        Supplement.

    13. CWChris Williamson1:12:50

        Yeah, uh-

    14. VHVincent Harinam1:12:51

        Exactly, automation.

    15. CWChris Williamson1:12:51

        ... work requirement. Yep.

    16. VHVincent Harinam1:12:52

        That's right.

    17. CWChris Williamson1:12:53

        Yeah.

    18. VHVincent Harinam1:12:53

        And I- well, look, that's what we're headed to. I mean, I would say that the only institutions that will not integrate AI right away are public sector institutions, law enforcement, for example. I know working with law enforcement organizations, they're not gonna get rid of people. Uh, uh, governments are not gonna get rid of people.... uh, they're gonna keep them in their chairs doing work that a computer could do. But you are gonna see this a lot in the private sector where s- sort of the needs of people, perhaps healthcare, healthcare is one, uh, certainly transportation, um, uh, delivery services, these are all gonna be automated, right? We're no, we're, uh, I would say within the next 30 years, we won't have any truck drivers. This is all gonna be automated, more than likely, self-driving trucks and whatnot.

    19. CWChris Williamson1:13:32

        Talk to me about your

13. 1:13:34 – 1:29:24

    The Future of Men’s Advice

    1. CWChris Williamson1:13:34

       perspective on men, men's advice moving forward over the next few years. They're kind of at one of the linchpins of what we've been talking about today-

    2. VHVincent Harinam1:13:42

       Yeah.

    3. CWChris Williamson1:13:42

       ... you know, what it means to be a man, the culture of manhood, masculinity, uh, and the advice as well that they're being given. What's your sort of feelings on where we're at now and your projection moving forward?

    4. VHVincent Harinam1:13:52

       I would say that the, the current situation is pretty bleak. So m- my view is that the current advice given to men is that you should have as many women as possible, level up, which is, is, level up is, is fine, but leveling up to what extent is the question. But it's more so engaging in vapid sexual relationships that yield nothing in the long term. So there is, it's always, the advice, I would say, is always geared towards short-term gain, but no long-term gain with relation to personal relationships. And what I notice most about the relatio- the advice given is that it lacks honor, right? We have a, a cohort of men that retreat within themselves and have no interest in, in benefiting society and the people around them. It's always about me, me, me. And i- if I, if I were to give advice to men in terms of how to meet a viable partner, I would say go to places where you think you'd meet the people that hold the same ideas that you do, that have the same values you do. Perhaps it's a church or a religious institution. Maybe it's a, a, a political conference where the like-minded are, and you be very upfront and honest about what it is that you're looking for. Y- y- you can really only be yourself. I know, uh, some, some guys in the red pill are gonna be like, "Ah, he's a, he's a cuck. He's, he's blue-pilled. That's terrible advice." But if someone doesn't accept you for who you are, they're never gonna accept you, so you might as well just be yourself and see, and see where that takes you.

    5. CWChris Williamson1:15:09

       Yeah. A lot of men's advice would rather you get into a relationship with someone who falls in love with a person that you aren't than you s- stay single for longer and finally find someone who gets into a relationship with the person that you are.

    6. VHVincent Harinam1:15:21

       That's right. Whenever you're on a, a date with someone, I always find that it's, it's often like the person that you're sitting in front of is just a representative of that person. You know, they're, they're trying to present the best-

    7. CWChris Williamson1:15:31

       A press secretary.

    8. VHVincent Harinam1:15:32

       ... possible... Yeah, a press secretary, just presenting the best possible image of that person. It's only when you really get into the third and fourth date that you kind of realize that this person may not be who they said they were-

    9. CWChris Williamson1:15:41

       Mm-hmm.

    10. VHVincent Harinam1:15:41

        ... in the first date when, uh, Mr. or Mrs. Press Secretary was, uh, listing all the talking points.

    11. CWChris Williamson1:15:46

        One of the things that I've sort of noticed throughout today's conversation has been this rapid, uh, culture counterculture dispensing of, moving on to the next one of tiny memes and of, uh, uh, of lifestyles.

    12. VHVincent Harinam1:15:59

        Mm-hmm.

    13. CWChris Williamson1:15:59

        And I think we've definitely seen that with the red pill, you know, only probably two years ago when we last spoke, it was i- still in its ascendancy probably-

    14. VHVincent Harinam1:16:10

        Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

    15. CWChris Williamson1:16:10

        ... you know, you didn't have big dating panel shows as the sort of, uh, de facto manosphere format. And in that time, they've ascended and now-

    16. VHVincent Harinam1:16:22

        That's right.

    17. CWChris Williamson1:16:22

        ... kind of dropped off on the back end, both-

    18. VHVincent Harinam1:16:25

        Right.

    19. CWChris Williamson1:16:25

        ... Andrew and Tristan Tate distancing themselves from the red pill saying that it's for, like, incel autist virgins-

    20. VHVincent Harinam1:16:31

        (laughs)

    21. CWChris Williamson1:16:31

        ... or something. (laughs) And, um, yeah, they, they... It's, it's so interesting to me how quickly these things ascend and how-

    22. VHVincent Harinam1:16:40

        Right.

    23. CWChris Williamson1:16:40

        ... quickly these things, uh, descend on the other side.

    24. VHVincent Harinam1:16:43

        I have a theory about that, and it's, it's with relation to... Have you heard of the concept of Lindy?

    25. CWChris Williamson1:16:48

        Yes.

    26. VHVincent Harinam1:16:48

        Nassim Taleb's concept of Lindy? So that which is, is a historical precedent will continue to be a precedent moving forward. I believe that Lindy applies to the red pill manosphere in the sense that ideas which are naturally bad, so the internal logic is, is, is just awful or not sound, when it's brought into the mainstream, it accelerates its destruction. So in this case, the, the, the worst thing to ever happen to the red pill was that it was mainstreamed because it means that a lot of grifters are now going to be joining this environment, joining this circle of people that degrade the overall idea because, again, the idea was subject to degradation in the first place.

    27. CWChris Williamson1:17:23

        Mm-hmm.

    28. VHVincent Harinam1:17:24

        So I would say that there's a natural life cycle to this sort of, um, content, right? There's a natural life cycle to all sorts of content. But I would say in the next five years, I'd be very much surprised if you still had the certain... I'm not gonna name the people. W- why give them clout on your, on your channel? But I would, I would assume that we wouldn't be seeing those faces, um, on YouTube, at least not having the audiences that they do now. I mean, Ray William Johnson was a big YouTuber back in the day. Where is he now?

Episode duration: 1:30:34