Creating A Life Of Excellence - Ben Bergeron | Modern Wisdom Podcast 295

1. 0:00 – 15:00

   There's a level above…

   1. BBBen Bergeron0:00

      There's a level above the extreme realist, which is what I call the curious competitor, which they're actually seeking out adversity. They're seeking out challenges, they're seeking out hardship, they're seeking out the hard conversations, they're seeking out the discipline, because they know it's only through those actions that they forge their character.

   2. CWChris Williamson0:25

      (wind blowing) Mr. Ben Bergeron, welcome to the show.

   3. BBBen Bergeron0:29

      Hi, Chris. Glad to be here.

   4. CWChris Williamson0:31

      I'm really happy to have you here, man. It's been a long, a long time planning. Very glad that we finally got to sit down.

   5. BBBen Bergeron0:36

      Well, that's 'cause you were traveling the world.

   6. CWChris Williamson0:39

      And-

   7. BBBen Bergeron0:39

      It, it's hard to get you to sit, settle down and-

   8. CWChris Williamson0:42

      Yeah.

   9. BBBen Bergeron0:42

      ... from your adventures.

   10. CWChris Williamson0:43

       That's true. Dubai was, Dubai was fun briefly. Uh, today, I want to dig into your principles for excellence. This is like your, your specialist subject, right?

   11. BBBen Bergeron0:52

       Uh, I don't think I'm a specialist at anything. I'm a generalist, I would say. Yeah. (laughs) And, and, and, uh, and excellence, I don't think... Uh, it's like an oxymoron, right? Like, you can't be a specialist in excellence 'cause it's so elusive. It's like it... That's why it's a, it's... The idea is, like, to chase it. It's not to own it. Like, you can't... You're not gonna get there. So... At least, I'm not there. (laughs)

   12. CWChris Williamson1:16

       (laughs)

   13. BBBen Bergeron1:16

       All right. What's... So, what does excellence mean to you? Like, what is it? Yeah. It's a, um, it's a good question. And I, I, you know, in real time, I'm going through my head right now. I was like, "You should have a good answer for this," and I don't. (laughs) It's like I, I wrote a book called Chasing Excellence, and you ask what, "What is excellence?" It's, "Ah, wow, that's, yeah, something I should have an answer to."

   14. CWChris Williamson1:36

       (laughs)

   15. BBBen Bergeron1:39

       But really, it's, um, it's, it's a catchall term for, um, greatness. It's a term for, um, achieving what you want to achieve. It's life on your terms. It's, uh, world-class. It's, um, um, being incredibly proud of something. Um, and I think that it's, it's supposed to be. Um, like, yeah, you could put all these, like, what is, you know... Um, you know, it goes from the spectrum of, like, world-class to, like, Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure, you know? A slang word to whatever you... It means whatever you want it to mean. To me, though, when I say the word excellence, it, it means, um, like, the best of your ability. That's what it really means. It's like... And that's why it's about chasing that, 'cause you're never... You know, call it maximizing your potential, if you want to, which is a complete unknown. No one knows how much potential they have or what they're a- actually capable of. And you could also argue that people, like, every now and then exceed their potential in some extenu- i- you know, e- extraordinary e- circumstances. People actually perform better than they are capable of because they get, um, whatever these magical powers are that people can lift a car off a, off a child, whatever it might be. Or, um, you know, there's these kind of moments that people have where they get to these incredibly deep flow states where, um, they, they, they magnify their own abilities by twofold, whatever it might be. So, I'm not so interested in the definition of what excellence is. I'm more interested in what are the practices that we should put into our everyday lives to get as close to whatever that term might be as possible. Because whether it's fulfillment, whether it's success on your terms or success on society's terms, whether it's winning, whether it's, um, um, freedom, whether it's, uh, the disciplined pursuit of less, whether it's... It's kind of like, it's up for you to decide what excellence is, and then the pursuit of that is fairly consistent across all those different, different domains, right? It's, it's... I'm not writing anything that... Anybody that's b- kind of dabbled in this world, like, I'm not doing anything unique. I'm just putting it through the prism of a coach. That's it. Like, I'm taking the same things that have been talked about for years, whether you talk about it from the, the early Stoics to the monks, to the, um, Abraham Lincoln, to the Ryan Holidays, to the James Clears, to the Stephen Coveys, to the... It's all, like, the, the same, um, principles put into action. It's just, I'm putting them through my own, like, little prism and the things that I've found worked. And, um, I'm learning a lot more than... (laughs) You know, continually, and, you know, when I wrote the book, I don't even know when, I guess it was 2016, and that's five years ago. There's a lot of things in the book that I'm like, I, I, I'm not like, "Damn, I wish I didn't write that," but it's, I, like, I don't agree with it anymore. You know, there's some interesting things that I've, like, I've just changed perspective on.

   16. CWChris Williamson4:57

       What are some of those?

   17. BBBen Bergeron5:01

       I, I put in the book, like, one of the tenets... You know, so basically the, the book that I wrote, uh, it's called Chasing Excellence, and it's these, um, you know, half dozen or, or dozen or so different characteristics or principles that people... Uh, at the time, I was saying that these are kind of the tenets. These are, like, the things that people need to have in order to become, quote-unquote, excellent. Um, and things like... Things have changed. Like, uh, one of the ones I said was positivity. And, um, the idea behind that was people that are in a positive mindset, you know... I know you're preparing for, to give a TED Talk, so when you go on stage, if you're in a positive frame of mind, you're, you're, you're a lot more likely to knock it out of the park than you are if you go out there and like, "I'm gonna fuck this up. It's gonna be terrible." Like, "Oh my God, what if I stumble on my words? What if I forget my words?" Like, it's kind of obvious, right? Everyone knows that. That's like success literature 101, visualization 101. But what's interesting is when you kind of dig into it, there's a case to be made for negativity. So, in terms of prisoners of war...... people with a negative mindset live longer than the optimists. The pessimists live longer than the optimists. The optimists say, "We'll be," and this is the Stockdale paradox, this is, uh, there's a lot of examples of this, but, you know, basically, the people that live the longest are the ones, um, it's not the people that are like, "It's okay! We'll be out by Christmas!" 'Cause Christmas comes and goes, and they're still in prison. Then it's like, "Okay, we'll be out by Easter!" Easter comes and goes, and (laughs) they're still in prison. And all of a sudden, it rolls around to next Christmas, and they die, you know, they, they die of a broken heart. Well, it's also not the pessimists. That's kind of obvious. Like, it, it, a pessimist is not the, the optimal state to be in either, because the pessimist goes, "This sucks so bad," like, they are, "I can't believe this," and they just end up eating themselves alive with negativity, and they're not gonna thrive. You can't thrive in a negative mindset. But you could also create that same parallel to, let's say, you have a, uh, you're, you're, um, you're per- you're three months out from your TED Talk. When you're three months out from your TED Talk, I'd rather have you have a negative mindset, 'cause when you have a negative mindset, you're gonna think about all the different things that can go wrong, and you're gonna mitigate those things. But then when you walk on the floor, I want you to be in that flow state and that positi- optimum mindset. So it's not really just, like, positive versus negative. It's not as binary as that. If you're a salesperson, again, I want you, when you're preparing for that sales pitch, to be a little bit negative. Like, "What are all the things that they could say? What's every question, what's every hole they could punch in our sales presentation?" Then, when you walk in the door, be like, "Yo, we got this," 'cause you're so prepared. The only way you can be prepared is if you've been willing to brace for the hard stuff. Optimists have a tendency to go, "The sun is always gonna shine, the grass is always green, there's unicorns growing in the backyard, there's rainbows everywhere." Well, that just is not reality. Like, reality is there is struggle, there is suffering, there is hardship in life. So the way I fr- would frame this now is there is, it's not about positive or negative, you know, maybe the Shakespeare thing, but, um, there are no, there is no such, no such thing as positive or negative, but thinking makes it so. So let's embrace harsh realities, let's prepare for the worst, let's be ready for the easy roads if they come and celebrate them along the way, but to me, it's more about being an extreme realist. Like, I would rather have people be a realist than an optimist or a pessimist. What I would, got confused of was, like, when you walk on the floor, I'd rather be an optimist. And I got confused with a little bit about, like, the enjoying the journey so much. And, like, for people that are trying to truly... You know, another thing I talked about was passion. Like, screw passion. Like, passion is like, when people... When you find passion, people are excited for you. Like, "Chris, I'm so happy that you found something that you enjoy so much. I'm so happy for you." Like, passion, passion, passion, passion, passion. That's not gonna get you to where you wanna go. What, where you wanna go is obsession. Like, world-class, like, it's reserved for people that are obsessed. And the athletes I work with, I've, I'm lucky to have worked with, you know, a half dozen or so of the very fittest people on planet Earth. And I see differences inside of those just four or five athletes of levels of passion versus obsession. The passionate people come in, and they work their ass off. The obsessed ones go home and do film review, and they obsess over it, and they obsess over their nutrition, and they obsess over their recovery, and they obsess over their sleep, and they obsess over the right... And I mean, I'm, what I'm describing is Mat Fraser. Like, that's Mat. Like, Mat left no stone unturned the entire way, along the whole thing. Like, every... He was obsessed. He edited his life down to the things that are gonna move him closer to his goals, and if it didn't move him closer to his goals, it was gone. It was eliminated. And there was no second guessing it. It was a complete obsession. Now, if you were to go to Mat and go like, "Are you passionate about this?" Mat'd be like, "No, it kind of sucks." Like, he's not, he wasn't passionate about it, but he was certainly obsessed. So there's things I've, I've, I've changed along the way, which I think is good. Like, it's, like, I, I'm, I'm proud of that. I'm not, like, I'm not, like, wishing that I, I was, still had those thoughts, because, you know, one of the other things I would have put in the book is curiosity. Like, curiosity, to me, is, like, one of, if I was to list, like, three tenets of, um, like, uh, uh, of character traits that the world-class have, like you gotta be curious. You gotta, like, wanna know. And I didn't have that vocabulary. I didn't have that word. One of my, um, employees gave it to me. We were talking about the differences of, like, world-class coaches versus good coaches. And they're like, "One of the things I've seen is this, certain coaches have this level of curiosity where they're always trying to, like, just make it better." Like, it's this, you know, I, I, I t- tend to talk about, like, uh, excellence on a spectrum. On one end, if you have excellence, in the middle, you have competence, the ability to do things, and on the far end, the opposite end, you have complacency, which is like, "Eh, doesn't really matter." (laughs) Whereas excellence is like geeking out about every tiny little thing. It's the obsession, it's... But the only way you get from competence to excellence is curiosity. If you're cool with being good, like, well, then you're cool with being good, and you're not gonna, you know, you're, you'll stay there. Not right or wrong. I think you need to be competent in most areas of your life, 'cause you're not gonna be able to be excellent across the board.

   18. CWChris Williamson11:58

       You don't need to be excellent at doing your taxes. You just need to be competent-

   19. BBBen Bergeron12:02

       Holy-

   20. CWChris Williamson12:02

       ... at, at doing your taxes.

   21. BBBen Bergeron12:03

       Holy crap. I just, like, literally, the, the call I had before this was with my accountant.

   22. CWChris Williamson12:07

       (laughs)

   23. BBBen Bergeron12:07

       And, like, liter- I, when you just said that, I was like, "Dude, what's," like, "have you been watching me?"

   24. CWChris Williamson12:12

       Yeah. Uh-huh.

   25. BBBen Bergeron12:13

       Like, literally, I hung up with my accountant, and, uh, I am so bad with that crap.

   26. CWChris Williamson12:16

       Yeah.

   27. BBBen Bergeron12:17

       Like, that's... Yes.

   28. CWChris Williamson12:18

       Y- yeah. I, um, I really like the curiosity idea. It's the number, it's the first...... personal value that I've got in my list of five.

   29. BBBen Bergeron12:25

       Oh, I love it.

   30. CWChris Williamson12:26

       Yeah.
2. 15:00 – 30:00

   I tweeted something the…

   1. BBBen Bergeron15:00

      l- layers, levels. Level one and the lowest level is the victim mindset. The victim mindset, you have no control over the situation, um, and you are truly just at the whim and the mercy of the world, and you give up total control and responsibility. There's zero ownership. That's the l- that is the worst level, and probably people that are listening to your podcast and mine, that they're not there. But maybe in, like, every now and then, something like that pops up and where, like, the boss says, "You gotta work on the weekend," and maybe they slip into it for a minute, right? It's like, "Oh, woe is me," that sort of thing. Most of people, though, would be a little bit above that level, um, which to me is the pessimist. And the pessimist goes, it's not like the woe is me as much as it's just like, "Ah, this sucks. All right. I'll work this weekend." But it's a negative. It's a negativity they're bringing to it. And what we know is people won't perform well if they have a negative mindset than an optimist mindset, which is the next level, which is obstacles not opportunities. I'm sorry, opportunities not obstacles, right? "You gotta work this weekend." "Okay, got it. I've gotta work this weekend. That's an opportunity for me to do this, this, and this." It's not... So, the lowest level is the victim. The next level above that is the pessimist. The level above that is the optimist. And that's where most people start, stop. They're like, "We gotta surround ourselves with positive people. We gotta, um, be glass is half full, we gotta enjoy the journey," and all that stuff. And that's, that's where I wrote my book. That's was like, that's the top. And what I realized is, I've already alluded to it, is a little bit, I would rather have the extreme realist, you know, Ray Dalio's words, like, which is people that embrace harsh realities, accept life for what it is, and realize that there is gonna be struggle, there is gonna be strife, and we can navigate it. That's okay. We don't need to pretend like this doesn't exist. Like, there's a pandemic. Okay. No big deal. Pandemics happen every 100 years, and this one's nowhere near as bad as the last one. Totally cool. Now we can still thrive in this moment today. Like, baby's crying in the middle of the night. Victim goes, like, "Oh my God, why is my baby crying?" (laughs) The pessimist goes, "Ah, this sucks. I'm not gonna sleep tonight." The optimist goes, "It's okay. Maybe my baby will stop crying in a, in a, in a minute," and the baby doesn't stop crying, obviously, 'cause the realist realizes babies cry. Like, that's what happens. But what you alluded to, which I love so much, is the language that I've even started using, is there's a level above the extreme realist, which is what I call the curious competitor, which they're actually seeking out adversity. They're seeking out challenges. They're seeking out hardship. They're seeking out the hard conversations because they know... They're seeking out the discipline because they know it's only through those actions that they forge their character. That is the actual where you get to put all of the practice, all of the meditation or journaling or listening to podcasts or self-reflection or whatever it is, that's where you actually get to put it into practice. And people in our space, like the CrossFit world, know this. That's why we choose this sport. We recognize that the greatest adaptation is between your years. It's not about the hour in the gym, it's about the how the hour in the gym affects the other 23 hours outside the gym. We're becoming better, stronger, more formidable human beings because of the hardship that we're going through. We're not looking for the shortcut. In fact, we want the opposite. We want Murph in a weight vest. Like, we want the hardest possible thing because we know what's at the other side of that.... a better version of myself. So why would we shy away from the baby crying in the middle of the night? That's an opportunity for us to see if we can be more patient. "Can I be present during this moment? Can I still bring love and affection to my child in this moment?" And if I can't, what you alluded to, it's not a win or a loss, it's not about the leaderboard, sometimes we're not gonna do great at this, but it's the awareness of that journey and that constantly walking through this life with that level of awareness and that prism, that's what gets us closer to, quote unquote, "chasing excellence."

   2. CWChris Williamson19:06

      I tweeted something the other week that said, "People are rarely fearful of the future when they're genuinely curious about what it holds." And this is something that I keep on falling back to. Uh, it's taken a lot of time to get it from system two to system one, but it is becoming more automated over time. And I genuinely think when something occurs that's uncomfortable, a, a thought or a, a, the texture of my mind gets me to a place where I don't want to be, it's almost automatic now for me to think, "How interesting." Like, "Why-"

   3. BBBen Bergeron19:37

      Yeah. Love that.

   4. CWChris Williamson19:39

      "... why is that there? What, what triggered that?" So earlier on today, we had, like, a, a message that pissed me off to do with work, and I thought, I, I noticed that, I could feel it inside me, I was getting hot, my neck got hot.

   5. BBBen Bergeron19:50

      Mm-hmm.

   6. CWChris Williamson19:50

      I remember observing it and going, "That's so interesting. Like, I wonder why that's there." There's a story, I think it's in Chasing Excellence, of Katrin, and maybe she was going into training and hadn't slept very well the night before, or maybe hadn't eaten very well the night before, and I think you said that her mindset wasn't, "This training session's a write-off. It's completely pointless," it was, "This is a great opportunity for me to train at suboptimal preparation. How well can I get through this session with that? Isn't it interesting that I have this opportunity? Maybe," and a couple of years later, it happens, "maybe we're going to be flown to the other side of the country to go and do an event that we weren't prepared for at the beginning of the CrossFit games with no sleep, without our food, with no coaches, with no this, that, and the other." And, um, that curiosity is so much more scalable. It can go across every situation. The hacks and the tips and the tricks are great, but their domain is narrow. The curiosity scales.

   7. BBBen Bergeron20:51

      What you, um, what you're highlighting w- there, w- which is so powerful, is that awareness, right? That awareness that when that trigger happens and you get that bad email, or Katrin doesn't feel like she's prepared for the workout, or your spouse says, "Hey, we need to talk," or, um, you get that bad, uh, comment on social media, or whatever d- or someone cuts you off in traffic, whatever that thing is that gives you that, like, little feeling, right? The power is recognizing that that's a trigger and it's not a tunnel. A trigger is something that sets you off, but you don't need to follow it through. A tunnel is you get in a tunnel and you follow it through to the end, right? It's, it's a, it's a, it's data, it's not a decision. Like, it's just this feeling. It's just, like, there's that data point. Huh? And as you said, "Isn't it interesting that that made me feel that way?" Well, why did it do that? Well, there's evolutionary biology can kind of let us know what's going on. So what happens is in- when we were, like, cavemen and -women kicking around the campfire, it was all about survival. It was, like, 100% about survival. Maslow's hierarchy of needs, it was about shelter, air, food, um, not getting p- put out in the e- e- ex- um, exposed to the elements. So the biggest, most powerful thing we had there was our tribe. Like, the tribe was the safety. So what we were so, became so innately aware of through our subconscious brain, not conscious, it was not like, "Hey, this person..." It's why trust, it's why love are these in- you can't define them. Could you tell me why you love your wife? You can't. But you can say, "It's this feeling I have." Those things are real. It's part of the lizard brain, the limbic part of the, the emotional part of the brain, and it's really good at picking up these signals. And what happens is, as cavemen and -women, when a twig would go snap in the woods, you would startle flinch. It wouldn't be thought out, it would just happen to be a reaction immediately to protect yourself, because it might be a saber-toothed tiger. That same reaction happens when maybe you hear someone gossiping about you, because if they don't like you, if they see you as a threat or they don't think that you're contributing to the group, um, or, um, you might be an outcast, they push you out of the group and you're gonna die. So the thing is, those feelings don't serve us anymore. (laughs) We're not gonna be pushed out of our three-bedroom apartments with the two-car garages into the wild because somebody said something bad about us on social media. Yet from an evolutionary biology perspective, nothing's changed. You can, you can take the, the, the person out of the Paleolithic era, but that, the brain parts comes with it, and we are still hardwired to respond, to react to those situations like they're real life-threatening events. So you get an email from somebody that says something bad about your business or whatever it might be, and your brain goes, like, "Life-threatening. Life-threatening." When it's not. It's just an opportunity to make your business better. It's a data point. It's a point of feedback. And if you didn't react to it emotionally, instead you took a calculated response, you were responsible, you took ownership, response-able, able to respond, you did it calculated, you did it through a thought-out process, something that you're gonna be proud of later on, that's gonna be productive, those are all characteristics of responding as opposed to reacting, which is emotional, overreacting, um, instinctual, um-... something that you're gonna regret later on, unproductive, it's the way amateurs act. One is gonna serve us and one is not. It's so much more powerful for us to take this, um, this, like, curious approach of, "Whoa! Where'd that feeling come from? Isn't that interesting?" And then we can respond instead of react.

   8. CWChris Williamson25:04

      It's the single best advert, or the single best justification that I can give anybody that's still not convinced about meditation. That-

   9. BBBen Bergeron25:13

      Mm-hmm.

   10. CWChris Williamson25:14

       ... the trait change of meditation comes very, very slowly. To get yourself to the point at which you've made a system-wide OS update to the texture of your mind, it takes a lot of time. I'm over 1,000 days deep on Insight Timer now, and-

   11. BBBen Bergeron25:32

       Whoa! Good for you, man.

   12. CWChris Williamson25:34

       Yeah, I mean, it's, uh, 10 and 15 minute sessions, but still.

   13. BBBen Bergeron25:37

       It doesn't matter, like, that's-

   14. CWChris Williamson25:39

       It's consistent.

   15. BBBen Bergeron25:39

       ... you know, about frequency, yeah.

   16. CWChris Williamson25:41

       Um, and the main thing that I've got is that what Corey Allen refers to as the mindfulness gap, which is the brief beat between stimulus and response.

   17. BBBen Bergeron25:52

       Mm-hmm.

   18. CWChris Williamson25:52

       Just the moment where you notice the texture before you actually decide to react. And, um, even if I meditate for the rest of my life and I don't get any more, any closer to Nirvana than that, if enlightenment for me is simply not being at the mercy of the wind as soon as it hits me, that, for me, I'll consider that a win, and I think that it's, it, it's something that I really wish not only that I'd had earlier in my life, but I, I wish it was like a gift that I could give to other people as well. Um.

   19. BBBen Bergeron26:21

       Yeah, that's really cool. Um, I'm so ... I've been, um, very introspective for a long time in kind of, like, trying to figure out my values and principles and who I wanna be and what I wanna stand for and how I wanna spend my time and how I'm going to react to certain situations and where I wanna put my energies and all that stuff. But for whatever strange reason, I, I pushed off meditation for a long time, and I think it's because it was always sold to me as it's a great way to become calm and lower stress. And I'm, I'm a fairly calm, low-stress person, so I was like, "I don't see ... If that's, if that's the carrot at the end of the race, like, I, it's, I don't think it's a race worth racing." And I got kind- I got kind of tricked into meditation when I started doing Wim Hof. Um, so I was, I was, which is hard to ... Breathing practicing, not realizing I was gonna be falling into a meditative state. So (laughs) , um, I'm on day about 55 of m- of Wim Hof, um, consistently. I've missed, I think, two days along the way. And, um, it's a really powerful breathing technique, and then afterwards you just, you m- you sit in this incredibly deep, deep meditative state, and I had these amazingly powerful awakenings really, really early on. And of course, like, there's the rollercoaster of, like, some of 'em suck and you wish that you could go back to the good ones, and, um, it's not linear, and it's, um, um, such is the jour- the, the journey of all of our lives in every f- form or fashion. Why would meditation be any different? Um, but it's again, like, we, I, I only wish that I had found this earlier. And to the point where I'm, I'm doing research on the, the super high achievers, you know, w- t- 10 years ago, and everybody's journaling and everybody's meditating. And I'm like, "Eh, not for me." Like, how arrogant (laughs) . How asinine. Like, oh, this is the best in the world across the field. Everybody's doing these two practices. But no-

   20. CWChris Williamson28:26

       But not for me.

   21. BBBen Bergeron28:26

       ... I'm like, "Eh, eh, I got it." (laughs)

   22. CWChris Williamson28:29

       Oh, funny man.

   23. BBBen Bergeron28:30

       And then, yeah, I mean, I'm only, you know, and, and here I am again kind of like espousing how amazing it is, and I'm only a few months into this thing, but it's, I realize how, um, ignorant and arrogant I was in that, that field, because I agree with you. It's, it's an incredibly enlightening, um, enlightening practice.

   24. CWChris Williamson28:49

       The moment that you realize that you can step into your own programming is the day that your life changes, as far as I'm concerned. The fact that you know that you don't have to be at the mercy of the next thought that comes careering into view. Like, it's, it's like watching traffic on a road. You don't control whether the traffic-

   25. BBBen Bergeron29:07

       Yeah.

   26. CWChris Williamson29:07

       ... comes or goes. Um, but yeah, so g- getting back to the, the, the excellence discussion, is commitment the foundation? That's the first chapter from Chasing Excellence. Is that still kind of the first tenet that people need to take on board?

   27. BBBen Bergeron29:20

       No, so I would ... So and maybe this is why ... 'Cause what you just said there is like the, the when you feel like you can control the operating system in your inside of you, like it's the first step of the rest of your life and you, you send a "Take control." Um, I, I sort of found that a different way than meditation. So that's like, I found this through a, uh, another portal. And that's probably why I was like, "Ah, I don't need it." So to me, it starts with, in terms of like the, the pursuit of excellence, it starts with not necessarily commitment, 'cause what the hell are you committing yourself to? Like, how can you, how can you commit to something where you haven't figured out what that should be? So to me it's the, it's knowing thyself.

3. 30:00 – 45:00

   You've got rid of…

   1. BBBen Bergeron30:00

      Um, and that what a gr- what better way that to ex- to try to figure that out than meditation and journaling. Um, and for that you need solitude, you need the self-reflection, you need a bunch of good things. Um, and that is a practice I did. So I spent a lot of time trying to figure out, um, you know, what is it that is going to make me fulfilled? And that's a word I use all the time. So if I was to write the book again, it'd be called Chasing Fulfillment, 'cause that's like, that to me is the most important thing. It's not about excellence. Excellence is subjective and are you just trying to impress other people? Are you looking for the applause and the accolades? Are you looking for the awards and the trophies? That, to me, sucks, um, 'cause what you might end up doing, which a lot of people do, is they get to the top of the ladder only to realize the ladder was leaning up against the wrong wall. Like, that just, that's-... my biggest nightmare in the world is to be chasing excellence to something which ultimately does not matter. Like, oh my God, I worked my ass off, like, worked so damn hard for what? Like, so my first step is, I think the most important thing, is what you've done, your cases, right, which is establish to you what is it that you want to, um, what are the values that you want to use to guide your life? Like, what do you believe in? Like, who are you as a person and what do you, um, want to get to the end of the race with? So, otherwise what you do is you let other people decide that for you, either the education or your parents or the normal, um, the normal traditional route is gonna be laid out for you, and you're just gonna be the lemming following along. And maybe you're a really good, fast lemming or you're a really smart lemming or you're a really good-looking lemming, but essentially, you're not making decisions of where you want to be, and you actually ha- you control the directives of your life. And when, to me, it's like when you understand that, like I talk about in terms of like the circle of control, you know, like what are the things that you ultimately control in your life? And you have to put all of your effort into those things in which you can influence and ignore everything else. What I think people don't realize is how much they actually can influence. People are like, "Well," um, like, "Okay, so I can't, uh, I, I don't like my boss. Okay, can't control my boss, so I'm not gonna worry about that." Like, "I don't like, I, I don't like the weather. Can't control the weather, so I'm not gonna worry about that." Um, I would say like, "What are you talking about?" Like, you can control y- who your boss is. If you don't like your boss, like quit your job and get a different job. You are not a victim. Like, if you don't like the weather, there are plenty of places in the world that have better weather than where you are living right now. Now, if you live in Maui and you don't like the weather, like, then you're just a pessimist and I can't help you. But, like, if you don't, if it's that much, if, if it means that much to you, take control. People are like, "Well I don't, I can't move because, um, my family's here and I care about my family." Okay, if that's actually true, cool. Y- f- like family is a real value to you, then understand why you're here and stop complaining about something that now you can't control, because you're going to be here. And to me, it's that understanding of what is it that really means a lot to you? What is important to you? What is your identity? Like, who are you? For me, I love your cases. To me, it's the four L's. I found that, and I've fumbled through this a bunch of different ways, and I've been tracking this on a daily basis. I have about 25 things I track on a daily basis. Um, and it's, um, for me, it's, it's, um, live, love, lead, and learn. So-

   2. CWChris Williamson33:49

      You've got rid of legacy.

   3. BBBen Bergeron33:51

      Yeah, I got rid of legacy. Yeah, good call. Wow, I'm impressed. Um, legacy is outside my control, and what a, uh, legacy to me is like, do I want people to... I, I was using legacy, I, I didn't want people to erect statues of me. I didn't want people to write books about me when I was gone. And, and I, I realized that, um, I'm gonna be one generation stardust. Like, my kids will remember me. My grandkids might have l- vague recollections of me, and after that it's done. Like, and anything after that is like, it to me is all ego. Like, you are just trying to drive the ego, and it's the last thing I want is I'm trying to melt my ego as much as I possibly can. So, um, and that legacy never was supposed to be about that for me. Legacy for me was like, I want my kid- I wanna be the hero of my kids' lives. So, I just wrap that into love. Um, I, uh, th- to me it's the love aspect of it. Um, so once you kind of figure out what those things are, and it's nice to have alliterations or acronyms-

   4. CWChris Williamson34:50

      Acronyms, yeah.

   5. BBBen Bergeron34:50

      ... for sure, um, 'cause I think that those carry weight 'cause you gotta be able to know them. If you're like, "Uh," people are like, "What are your values? What's important to you?" And you go, "Hold on, let me pull up my notes on my phone."

   6. CWChris Williamson34:59

      (laughs) You always forget the fourth one or something, yeah.

   7. BBBen Bergeron35:01

      Yeah, yeah. Exactly. Um, it's probably not that powerful to you. So, um, so to me, like it starts with that. It starts with like, and I d- I fig- I came back to this and I eliminated, um, legacy through meditation, realizing like, um, you know, what makes me feel alive? What makes me feel alive? Like, really alive? And for me it's like living life. For you, that's adventure. That's, that's me, it's like have experiences, say yes, get outside, go do things. Like, that's living life for me. So we're very similar in th- that fashion. Um, learn is curiosity for me. So it's the same thing with me. It's like I, I feel so alive when I'm, um, becoming, um, like honing skills and figuring stuff out. And, um, um, the curiosity thing is just like, that's a like, curiosity to me is like the fastest way into a flow state. Like I just love, like, oh my God. Like, yes. Um, love is basically, it's, about me, it's, it's my family. I love, like family means so much to me. I'm a family first guy. Um, if it's, um, comes down to this or that and that is family, it doesn't matter what this is. Like, it's gonna go away. Um, and then, um, the last one's lead, which I've found is like I like being a coach. Like, that, there's a reason I became a coach is I like, um, I, I feel really good, I feel really fulfilled when I'm helping other people. And I've tried to do this in other ways, like giving to charity or teaching or, um, and it's that nothing f- fulfills me quite as much as the, the, uh, the leading thing. And it works for me in business too. So when I'm like, um, you know, um, helping develop our staff or whatever it might be, like I love that, um, aspect of things. I like the responsibility of it. I like, um, um, having, um-... trying my best to help other people. So, to me, it's, that's where you start. Um, and then from there, we can get into the commitment thing, and there it becomes, like, um, the daily actions, and then it gets into the next stuff.

   8. CWChris Williamson37:10

      Got you. Let's talk about commitment. How important is it?

   9. BBBen Bergeron37:16

      Um... If we don't commit to it, what we're doing is we're just kidding ourselves, and it's- it's easy to kid ourselves because us sitting here talking about this right now, we feel good. If you talk about your goals, your body releases dopamine. That is one of the- the really scary things about goals. If you talk about running a marathon this year, you're gonna feel really good. And you talk about, like, the running program you're gonna do, you're gonna start feeling really good. You start talking about, like, "I'm gonna actually do this in under four hours," you're gonna start to feel really good. You haven't done anything yet (laughs) . Like, you've done nothing. All you're doing is kidding yourself. So, I like a diffuse... Like, it's- it's, you know, I can't hear what you're saying 'cause your actions speak so loudly. Like, it is only about what you commit yourself to. So, I can pretend to espouse, like, leadership, I can pretend to espouse, like, family, I can pretend to espouse, like, living my life, but if I'm not actually doing the daily tasks that inch me closer to those, I'm- I'm- I'm just gonna have some sort of, like, s- salesman. I'm just kinda, like, throwing it out there. So, I know that this is... I don't even know if this is... Um, I know you can see this, but other people can't. I- I- I started tracking my commitments to see how committed I am. So, I write down my values, and then-

   10. CWChris Williamson38:52

       Yeah, wow.

   11. BBBen Bergeron38:53

       ... um, for, under my values, for every day, I have four or five things for each value, and I check them off if I do them each day. And I've done this for, since, um, 2015. So, um, they iterate, they change, they morph. They're, but, you know, um, but it lets me know and when, when I don't do it, guess what happens? So, it's, it's not rocket science either. It's just, like, it's really simple st- So, like, to give some context to it, so, um, love. To me, it's about love, so love is be home by 6:00 every night. Um, have family dinner, um, contact my wife in the middle of the day. So, while I'm at work, contact her before I get home. Um, play with, I call them the littles. I have two little kids. Um, so play with the littles. Call my mom and dad. So, those are the five things I have for love, and I'm tracking those, and what I found was those things come in and there's other things that take their place, but what I found is when those th- if I haven't done those things consistently enough, something feels weird in me. Like, but if I'm doing those things, that kind of category, I'm kinda good. Like, I'm kinda good with that family, love thing. I'm really good with that. So, for leadership, it's like, have a hard conversation. Like, I actually now seek out a hard conversation every day. Like, that's what leaders do. They have hard conversations with people. Um, the next one is, like, connect, like, emotionally, empathetically, whatever it is with an employee, so with somebody on my team. Another one is, um, connect with a, uh, member, so connect with somebody, um, that works out at the gym. Um, another one is thought leadership, which is, code word for me, it's like I- I give a talk after my classes, and when I give, when I don't give a talk, it doesn't feel like I've given everything I have to it, but the talks are hard. I have to prepare for them and, um. And the last one is, which I found (laughs) is, um, leaders need to be prepared. So, did I prepare for a meeting today that I'm gonna have tomorrow? 'Cause otherwise, the last thing you wanna do as a leader is walk into an area where you're supposed to be the leader and be unprepared. So, that, to me, is like a, the commitment thing. It's like, are you actually doing it? So, people have core values, organizations have them, and what they fail to do is operationalize them. Okay, you got these cool things that you said are important to you, like, "We are about integrity, we are about faith, we are about, um, customer service, we are about..." whatever it is, and they just leave them there up on the wall, and they forget to operationalize them. And it's only when you operationalize them that they mean anything. That's the commitment aspect. That's when it actually comes to fruition. That's when you're actually taking steps forward.

   12. CWChris Williamson41:40

       What does maximizing minutes mean?

   13. BBBen Bergeron41:46

       Um, so in stoic philosophy, I'm gonna butcher it, but it's amor fati, I believe it is? Which, um, um-

   14. CWChris Williamson41:56

       Is that love thy fate?

   15. BBBen Bergeron41:57

       Love thy fate, yeah. Uh, no, it's the other one. It's the one, uh, so there's a f- two sides of it. It's the, uh... I'm butchering it. It's the idea that we're all gonna die. So-

   16. CWChris Williamson42:10

       That's meme- is that not memento mori?

   17. BBBen Bergeron42:12

       We're all going to die. Like, again, embrace harsh realities. Y- you only have so much... So, this is kinda c- when you think about it, like, "Okay, I'm gonna live till, I'm gonna live to 90." Cool. And people are like, "Oh, all right, cool," and I'm in my, um, early 30s. Uh, uh, uh, uh it doesn't put that much urgency into anything. When you change it to how many summers you have left, so you have 57 summers left, all of a sudden you're like, "Whoa, like, summers go by pretty quick." Like, yeah, you only have 57 more summers left. And that's if you're, that's if you're in your 20s or 30s. So, I'm now 44 years old, so now I get, you know-... 40-something more summers left. I gotta make sure that each of those things matter. Now, that's a summer. Now all you have to do then from there is go like, "Okay, we gotta make these weeks count. Then, okay, we gotta make these days count. Then, okay, we gotta make these m- hours and minutes and seconds count." And when I start to think about this this way, there's a, there's, there's a cost to it. Like, I can't sit through a movie anymore. I, I can't... I don't, I don't know the last movie I've watched. People are like, "You gotta watch this show on Netflix." You know, "You gotta watch Yellowstone. You gotta watch Breaking Bad. You gotta watch Mad Men. You gotta watch, um, Game of Thrones. You gotta wa-" And I'm like, "I, I've tried. Honestly, I've tried and it's... I can't do it." Like, it's, um-

   18. CWChris Williamson43:45

       Why?

   19. BBBen Bergeron43:46

       ... to me, I'm, I'm wasting my minutes. I just, it's not moving me closer to my end goals. Now what I could do, and if I could create the translation between how this would help me maximize those values, then I can do it. I can sit through a d- I, I seek out documentaries. I love documentaries. 'Cause I'm learning in a documentary. That's one of my values. I love, love, love them. I will watch four documentaries back to back to back to back. 'Cause whether it's about, um, you know, Jay-Z, whether it's about a chef, whether it's about, um, um, Taylor Swift, whether it's about uh, uh, a soccer team in England, whe- it doesn't matter to me. Whether it's about guys building shelters in the jungle, any sort of, like... Because to me, I'm learning and it's like I... That to me is maximizing m- maximizing my minutes. Now, I have a little bit more, um, hmm. My wife is a lot, even more tipped over the edge than I am on this. Like, my wife can't do anything that's not productive. Um, she's, but she meditates,

4. 45:00 – 1:00:00

   I'm gonna guess that…

   1. BBBen Bergeron45:00

      she reads, um, she journal- she does all these types of spiritual practices. Um, but she can never just, um... If she's sitting down, the sitting down is for a purpose and I'm meditating. And what she's like, she's so... Um, to her, like, every day matters so much and we gotta get as much value out of every day as we possibly can. That's where it stems from. But then when it comes in terms of, like, me training my world-class athletes, everyone is in the gym for six hours a day. Uh, you and all of your competitors in the gym for six hours a day. If you go to the gym more, you're just gonna overtrain. That's not beneficial. If you go to the gym less, you're gonna undertrain. So okay, you have that set amount of time. What are you doing with that time? And it's not a matter of, like, are you rowing? Are you doing rope climbs? Are you clean and jerking? It's what's the intention and what's the level of focus you are bringing to those minutes? He or she who brings the most intention to their training and practice will win. That's how it goes. Like, all else being equal, meaning that everyone has the same athletic background, everyone has the same genetics, everyone has the same equipment, same availability of opportunities, he or she... So everyone puts on the same training program in a vacuum, laboratory study. Uh, it's o- everyone knows that p- certain people are not gonna, people are gonna, uh, do better than other people, even if they're twins and they have the same identical makeup, because some people are gonna bring more intention to their practice. To me, that's what maximizing minutes are. Don't let the minutes slip away. They are the... People like to say that time is the most valuable resource 'cause it's the only non-renewable resource. I like that, and that's where this maximizing minutes idea comes from. But time is not the most valuable thing. Your focus is the most valuable thing. What are you focusing on during that time? Because most of us that are 30 or 40 years old have driven cars for 10,000 hours, yet none of us are professional race car drivers, 'cause we're not intentional when we drive. Yet there's 16, 17, 18-year-olds that are knocking on the door being pros that have driven half the time we have, but they're doing it with so much intention and focus. So it's not the 10,000-hour rule that Malcolm Gladwell made really popular. It's the deep, deliberate practice that Eric Anderson originally espoused in his 10,000-hour study. That's the thing that matters. That's maximizing your minutes. If everyone gets 10,000 hours, why do some people become better than others? 'Cause some people maximize their minutes and others don't.

   2. CWChris Williamson47:49

      I'm gonna guess that you're familiar with Cal Newport's Deep Work, and he's got a formula in that for work done. And he says work done equals time times intensity, and I guess that you could replace intensity for intentionality or-

   3. BBBen Bergeron48:00

      Yeah. Yeah, yeah, I love that.

   4. CWChris Williamson48:01

      ... uh, in- intention here. The interesting thing is that time passes at the same speed for all of us. You can't add more hours into the day. And time actually to compete on that, there's a minimum buy-in, as you said. You gotta pay the price. You gotta do your six hours. But six hours is always going to be six hours, and it's six hours for everybody else. The variable with which you can change is the level of intensity far more easily. You're gonna be able to change the intensity, the intentionality, the level of commitment and focus that you bring to the gym or any other task that you do far more easily than you're going to be able to bend the laws of spacetime. So-

   5. BBBen Bergeron48:38

      Yeah.

   6. CWChris Williamson48:38

      That's the thing, that's the variable to play around with. There's another, another concept from The E-Myth, um, Revisited, where they say that, uh, "Idea is the constant. Execution is the multiplier." A lot of the time people come in and they think, "Oh, I've got this, I've got this awesome idea, but, like, I'm gonna have to get you to sign a non-disclosure agreement before we talk about it."

   7. BBBen Bergeron48:56

      Yeah. (laughs)

   8. CWChris Williamson48:57

      And you're like, dude, like, Joe Rogan isn't necessarily the best podcaster on the planet because he had the idea for the best podcast.

   9. BBBen Bergeron49:05

      (laughs)

   10. CWChris Williamson49:06

       He's the best podcaster on the planet because he has executed on that over and over and over again for 1,500 times. And what you said in the commitment side basically was a bias for action.... it's you need to execute more than you plan. You cannot-

   11. BBBen Bergeron49:24

       Love that.

   12. CWChris Williamson49:24

       ... plan more than you execute. It's this, uh, like, masturbation by procrastination type thing, that you just continue to make yourself feel good with this, but it needs to be action focused. And again, with this, a, a good heuristic that I think everybody can do is, as soon as you have the beginning of an idea, what is the smallest next step that I can do that brings me towards that happening? Even if it's just opening the Word document, uh, uh, finding the person's email address, even before you know what you're gonna email them, because it's like, right, "I'm, I'm doing a thing." Learn to bias for action, not bias for planning, because as you say, planning, it doesn't manifest in the real world. It's not moving you anywhere forward.

   13. BBBen Bergeron50:03

       Yeah. Exactly. Yeah, we could sit here all the time and, and talk, you know, wax nostalgia about all the things that we find important to us, but if you don't take action towards those things, like, what's it for?

   14. CWChris Williamson50:11

       So you, what you've done in both of these sections, in maximizing minutes and in your commitment, your commitment is, "I want to ensure that my daily actions contribute to my long-term goals. I want to ensure that my minutes contribute to a life well lived." You've taken broad goals, a direction that I want to go in, you've broken those down into subgoals, and you've broken those down into daily actions that are going to contribute and move you in that direction. That, I think, to some people, might feel overbearing, like I haven't got any time to chill out or what about... uh, Ben says he doesn't, he feels like every minute's got to be productive. Like, that doesn't sound very fun.

   15. BBBen Bergeron50:51

       Mm-hmm. Hmm.

   16. CWChris Williamson50:52

       How do you avoid burnout when you're moving towards this maximizing minutes and this level of commitment?

   17. BBBen Bergeron50:58

       Yeah. What I'm, what I'm, what I'm doing is I'm being intentional with the things that actually make me feel most alive, that give me the most feeling of, um, joy and elation. It doesn't mean that it's joy and elation in the moment. Like, if we only chase pleasure, we're gonna end up with a world of regret at the end. Like, the most pleasurable things in the world are, like, ice cream, partying, Netflix, sex, like, whatever it is. Like, that's pleasure. If we just seek that, we're gonna be, you know, hedonistic slobs. What we should be seeking out is the things that move us towards the end state that we're, that we're looking for, which is, for me, is fulfillment. So it's a little bit of this, like, exercise of hindsight in the present moment, right? Which is like, on my deathbed, when I look back at my life, what are the things that I'm gonna be really glad that I did? What are the ways I'm gonna be glad that I spent my time? What are the things that I'm, I'm, I'm hoping, um, are the ways that I'm living out my life? And I don't think that I'm gonna go like, "Man, I was so glad I watched, um, you know, those four hours of Instagram today." So it's one of the things I've done in terms of, like, trying to, like, I, I track my Instagram, like, how much time I'm spending on it. And it was, I was horrified to find, when I first started doing this, that it's super easy to do on an iPhone. You go Settings, Battery, change it to Hours, and look down and see how much you're s- And I was spending, like, four to six hours, uh, in, in a 10-day span on Instagram. And I was like, "Oh, my God." And then I had my athletes pull up theirs, and it was, like, double that. I was like, "Whoa. (laughs) This is terrible." So I did what I do with my life. I started edding it down. I'm down to e- I follow 44 people, um, 44 different things, and most of it is just purely, um, I think that Instagram is this double-edged thing, which is, like, it's also the greatest education tool that's ever been created. Like, it's ama- You get more content easily through that platform than any other platform ever, um, which I think is so cool, but it's, there's also, there's a lot of dangers to it. So I'm now down to about, um, 44 minutes in a 10-day period, so four minutes in, four minutes, um, a day. So that's just, like, I, uh, it's, it's not pleasure. It's not, it's not the thing that I wanna be doing. So I'm not saying, like, you have to live through life as a robot at all, but what I'm doing is I'm not wasting time mindlessly on the things that I think are making me feel good, which is actually a fallacy because it's just a fake dopamine response. I, you don't wanna get tricked by feelings. Feelings are lying to us. They're lying to us. They're gonna make us, 'cause it's survival mechanisms. We are calorie preservation machines. We weren't used to, like, go and do, a, a 90-minute hunt, and then we wouldn't go and leave the campfire for the rest of the day. We would just lounge out preserving calories. We'd go forage for berries for 30 minutes, and we'd chill out forever. Like, that doesn't serve us anymore. And this idea of, like, the Netflix binging, of watching nine episodes in a row of Gossip Girl, I think I'm getting to the end of that and being like, "Okay. Where did that help me live my life? Where did that help me love more and create better, stronger relationships with people that mean the most to my life? Where did that help me lead other people, help give back? Where did that help me learn the curiosity and grow myself as a human being?" And maybe Gossip Girl will give me some good tips and maybe it would.

   18. CWChris Williamson54:28

       (laughs) Yeah, maybe. There's, um, there's, like, a concept I was thinking about for a long time.

   19. BBBen Bergeron54:32

       So this is, like, sorry if, if-

   20. CWChris Williamson54:33

       Yeah, yeah.

   21. BBBen Bergeron54:34

       I, I, I do like doing other things though. Like, I go, like, in the summer, I love going on a boat with my family and going to a beach and hanging out. Like, that, I do, I love that. Love, love that, and I do that. I go skiing with my family and do things like that. I do watch documentaries. I do, like, um, so I'm not just, like, 100% robot machine, go, go, go. Um, but to me, it's about the balance and the intentionality, right? I want the balance in my life. I don't wanna be the most successful business person. I don't even wanna be the most awesome dad, as weirdly, strange, and weird as that for me to say out loud, because I wanna be able to do four or five different things really, really well across the spectrum.

   22. CWChris Williamson55:16

       There's a, uh, a concept that I've been thinking about for a long time to do with your future self. So we have-Three selves. We have the past self that we remember, we have the present self that is experiencing, and we have the future self that we anticipate, right? The person that remembers your life lives for far, far, far longer than the other two. The present moment's always fleeting. It comes and goes. The anticipating self only has a, a fairly sort of short window about what you think is going to happen in the future. But the remembering self exists literally from the day you're born until the day that you die, and it compounds over time. So, what I've been trying to do in my life is live for the remembering self, to do the things that I know me tomorrow are going to thank me today for doing. And there's a, a quote f- from a TED Talk that says, "We pamper the present, the present self like a child that continues to cry." We constantly do things-

   23. BBBen Bergeron56:14

       Mm.

   24. CWChris Williamson56:14

       ... that make the present self feel good. Um, we're planning on going to a new salsa class tomorrow. The anticipating self thinks, "Amazing. Salsa class. That might be really cool. I might meet some new people." But it gets to the next day and it's salsa class time and it's a bit cold outside and you had a bit of a shitty day and maybe that glass of wine would be quite nice and Netflix is comfortable and I'm on the couch. Present self-

   25. BBBen Bergeron56:35

       Mm-hmm.

   26. CWChris Williamson56:36

       ... pampered child.

   27. BBBen Bergeron56:37

       Mm-hmm.

   28. CWChris Williamson56:37

       Remembering self tomorrow looks back and thinks, "I don't, I can't even remember what I watched. The glass of wine was all right, but I've had a million of them before, it doesn't really matter." Flip that around and be the person who says, "Okay, I'm going to do the salsa class. I'm going to go and attend because I know tomorrow when I look back, I'm going to gift this present moment to me in the future. This is, every single present moment is a gift that I can give myself. Money in the bank. Memories in the bank. And I'm going-"

   29. BBBen Bergeron57:07

       Yeah.

   30. CWChris Williamson57:07

       "... to be able to look back and remember the new people that I met and that memory that happened." We do nothing memorable with our days and then complain about the fact that life is forgotten. Life's going so fast, it just keeps on moving really, really quickly. Like, if you want to remember the days that you've spent, you have to do something memorable with them. And a lot of the time, I think we get stuck into very convenient, very comfortable routines, and that is what makes... This last year, the last 12 months will have been probably for the vast, a lot of people that are listening, the quickest 12 months of their life. Why? Because variety's been tuned down. You haven't been able to go and do as many different things as you want. You're sick of staring at the same four walls. So yeah, if there was ever a reason, a justification for you to focus on doing things for your remembering self in the future, it should be that.
5. 1:00:00 – 1:15:00

   Um, so adversity is,…

   1. CWChris Williamson1:00:00

      in extremes in other people's lives, like the athletes that you coach. How can people learn to embrace adversity?

   2. BBBen Bergeron1:00:07

      Um, so adversity is, it's, it's essentially hard things, right? So it's, whether it's COVID, the pandemic, um, whether it's, um, it's raining outside or there's traffic, or whether it's, um, a hard workout, the first thing we have to realize is this is a part of life. Like, (laughs) it's a, it's, the most important thing is this acceptance level. We are not as human beings or any other living thing on planet Earth not going to face adversity. Like, every... There was a study done, uh, uh, where these scientists tried to grow, um, tried to create utopia, this perfect garden, and they put it in this dome in the desert with a perfect humidity, the perfect amount of rain, the perfect soil, and, um, they tried to make this perfect place. And once the trees got to a certain height, they just started toppling over. And what they found out was the trees need resistance. They need wind to grow strong. Without the wind, there's, without resistance, they're, they're gonna be weak. They're not gonna, they're not gonna be able to fulfill their own destinies of being trees.... it's w- we, in our space and the people that do, like, our, our sport and, um, it's just known, like, the har- if you work hard, you're gonna reap better results. So, why would we not just kinda, like, embrace it? Like, why would we not just kinda seek this out? And the reason is because you're afraid you're gonna fail. Um, so the example would be, like, let's say one of my athletes is at the CrossFit Games. And a, um, and it's really, really hot out. Okay, like, that's gonna make it harder, yes. It's gonna make it harder. So, the first day, it's like, you have to accept it, like, it's outside your control, okay? And then from there, it's like, it's, it's hot for everybody, okay? And then from there, it's, best thing is, like, why would you want it any other way? Like, you're at the CrossFit Games, don't you want this to be hard? It's a David Goggins thing, like, if you're gonna go through Hell Week, give me the coldest, hardest freaking Hell Week ever. I don't want this easy Hell Week. I don't want the one that people go, like, "Yeah, but that wasn't a tough one." Give it to me like I'm going through this for a reason. That's our lives. We're going this far for a reason. Now, I also want the sunshine and rainbows, and I also wanna, um, you know, the grass to be green and to enjoy myself, but I also, I also want the struggle. And I, I really mean that. I want the struggle. When COVID first happened, um, you know, I own a, I own a, a small business, and I thought I might lose the business. I own a gym. And gyms were closing down, we closed the gym. And it was a day, it was a, it was a couple of days filled with anxiety. And when I started to figure out, like, okay, like, we just talked about, like, action cures anxiety, like, just start moving forward, taking steps, like you said. I just started writing lists of the things I needed to do. I needed to, like, start taking action. And as I started going through it, I started to get this, like, this, like, early ent- the thing I hadn't had for 10 years, like, it was like, I'm fighting for my survival again. And it was the best couple of weeks of business ownership that I've had since I started my business. That's what we wax nostalgia about, is the ear- the days that are the hardest. Nobody goes, like, with their team at their, you know, at their business and goes, "Remember those three months where it was just, like, really smooth sailing and we all went home at 4:45 and, um, you know, we were just meeting the numbers and everything was kinda just, like, hunky-dory and, you know, it's kinda blah?" Like, people go, "Remember when we stayed up that weekend and we, till 2:00 in the morning getting that project done and we ordered pizza and we were burning the midnight oil? And, like, we came in just under deadline and we crushed it?" And, like, how ... That's what people remember, is your point, is, like, create the memories, like, the adversity is, is the opportunities for us to get better. And, and talk about in terms of one of your core values and mine, from learning or curiosity, like, what better are, you need that moment. Like, if you're gonna be curious about something, as you said, like, "I got this feeling," like, ooh, that warmness in my neck, like, where does that come from? Like, that didn't come from the warm and fuzzies. That came from a bad feeling, adversity. And now you get to dig into it and expose things and learn things and become better from it.

   3. CWChris Williamson1:04:41

      I love it, man. I, um, I really think that some of the lessons that come from adversity, in retrospect, are, are the ones that we really relish. And if you were to tell someone that in advance, it sounds so dumb, but ...

   4. BBBen Bergeron1:04:55

      Mm-hmm.

   5. CWChris Williamson1:04:55

      ... 60 or two-thirds of people report post-traumatic growth, not post-traumatic stress. So the trauma makes them stronger. They are anti-fragile. I had a, uh, an Achilles rupture, full Achilles tear, at the middle of last year, uh, playing cricket, which is, like, the most British way to rupture an Achilles.

   6. BBBen Bergeron1:05:15

      (laughs)

   7. CWChris Williamson1:05:17

      (laughs) And, um ... What-

   8. BBBen Bergeron1:05:20

      In, in, like, a four-day-long cricket match?

   9. CWChris Williamson1:05:22

      No, no, in my first return to the game in a decade, which was obviously just as stupid. Um, w- what happened when I ruptured my Achilles was I found, in myself, a level of fortitude that I didn't know existed. I didn't think I would have a particularly good constitution to deal with this sort of trauma. And something happened, I'd spent a fair bit of time, it was a lot of Ryan Holiday and Ross Edgley, but, like, I, I did, I did a bit of prep. But then, like, when I needed it, it was called. Like, when I w- when I needed that fortitude to arrive, it was there. And now, I have so much more faith in future me. I believe that the things that ... Or if something occurs that I don't think I'm capable of doing, if I need to, my constitution will get me through it. There's, like, areas of my programming that I can't access unless they're needed. You said it at the very beginning, the woman that pulls the car off the infant. There are things that you can do that you don't know that you can do. And for the, for the most part, you're not crew or the pilot on Spaceship Human. You are fucking cargo. You are along for the ride, and your programming is running the show. And for you to think that you know the levels and the limits of your potential is ... It, it, you're believing the, the hype in a way that is not only untrue, but also not productive. You can do things that you don't know that you can do, and you won't know that you can do them until you need to.

   10. BBBen Bergeron1:06:57

       Boom.

   11. CWChris Williamson1:06:59

       Talking about confidence, I wanna know how people can build confidence.

   12. BBBen Bergeron1:07:06

       It's just preparation. I mean, it's, it's the same, it's the same word. Like, people are confusing, like, um, if they're trying to create confidence, you don't create it. It, confidence is a side effect. It's the result of something. People are like, "Okay, go on the field and be confident." It's like, "What?" Like, "Get on that stage and be confident."What? No, you, you, you earn confidence through your preparation. If you put in the work, you know that you can do this. Now, what I would ask of my athletes and what I would coach people to do is to define success in controllable terms. And when you start to do that, confidence becomes a lot more attainable. Because if confidence is, "I'm gonna win," well, winning and results are outside your control. So now, (laughs) how in the world could you be confident when you don't even- when you have n- you have no direct impact on the, the end result of what you're doing? So if you define success in, you know, regardless of the adversity, regardless of the circumstances, regardless of the score, regardless of what happens, I am going to give my very best effort through this. Okay, that, you can, yeah, cool. If you, yeah, if you know you can do that, that's confidence. That's what that is. And then if you bring a high level of preparation to that endeavor, now we're really talking, like 'cause that's what it is. Then really, whatever situation pops up, it's probably not gonna be new. Like imagine you're a football team or whatever it might be, or, um, a business navigating a new situation. Well, if you've prepared for those situations, you can be confident, for sure. But I think people, um, think that they can call upon confidence and you can't call upon confidence. It's the net end result of preparation and effort.

   13. CWChris Williamson1:09:02

       Confidence needs to be earned. There's a Naval Ravikant quote where he says, "Self-esteem is the reputation you have with yourself. You'll always know." And I think we look at people, because we only get to see that, the outward display of confidence, and you see Beyoncé on stage or Mat Fraser at the games or some cool dancer person up on a stage somewhere, and you think, like, "Look at that confidence," and you go, "Well, what's the difference between confidence and so much preparation that you know even your worst effort is far better than you need it to be?"

   14. BBBen Bergeron1:09:39

       Yeah. Right. That. Yes. That's confidence. Exactly right.

   15. CWChris Williamson1:09:46

       What advice would you have for a, a young guy or girl who feels like they've sort of built for more than they're currently achieving? So they're stuck in a bit of a mediocrity rut, and they know that they've got potential, but they're just, they're kind of bogged down. Like is there a realization that you can give them to snap out of it?

   16. BBBen Bergeron1:10:03

       Yeah, it's a great question. Um, yeah, I don't know if it's a matter of, I don't think that snapping out of it really exists and, uh, without the work, right? Like, so if you've done your 1,000 days of meditation, you might have this snap moment, but it's coming from the other thousands of days that you've done this. So to me, it, it kinda starts with that first piece that we just, we just talked about, which is, um, like pull yourself out of the matrix, right? Like the, the operating system that you, which you, with the words that you use, which I love, is there is this either already self-designed program running you, and then you're also inside of the matrix where the society is just guiding you, and basically, you're just kinda like trying to walk down the hall without bumping into the walls. Like that's not like... Pop your head up and look at the entire maze and go like, "Wait a minute. Wait, wait a minute. I don't even wanna, I don't wanna be in this game. I wanna go play that game over there." So if people are feeling bogged down, if they're feeling, um, like they have so much more attainable, I would say that you probably do. And if you can't figure out what that thing is that you wanna do, to what you said, Chris, is like I would just go, go start having some experiences. Like you just need to start experiencing things 'cause you learn so much more through experience and action than you ever will sitting and, um, staying stuck. You can't, uh... I'm a big fan of, um, fast, big decisions. Like when 9/11 happened, I was working in a, a bank in Boston, like an investment bank, and, um, that was enough for me to, like that was a snap moment for me, and I was like, um, "This is not for me. I don't wanna play this game. I'm gonna go, I wanna have impact." Um, I left the investment world, moved out to Wyoming, um, to try to get some space and some solitude and be a ski bum and figure out what I wanna do with my life. And that's when I came across the, I, I, I was like, "I wanna do fitness." Like this, what's the thing that, this is when I feel alive. So one of my, one of my principles, one of my like guiding p- guideposts is blur the line between work and play. Like I love doing this with you, Chris. Like if I was, like am I, or like, uh, am I at work right now or am I playing right now? Right? It's the same thing, like when I'm coaching my athletes, like that's, uh, I'm, I'm not working. Like I'm doing what I love to do. And when I'm running and leading the business, like that's what I love to do. And when I, I, I don't... Mondays and Saturdays are the same. Like it's just like I'm alwa- like find something that you love to do. I know this is so cliche. It's the most cliche thing in the world, but I thought I loved to ski, so I went out to become a ski bum. And that's when I realized it wasn't just chasing the next big wave or the next storm. That didn't really ultimately fulfill me. I wanted more. So then I made the next big, drastic decision, which was let's move back and start a training business. And just start going and doing that, and if you fail, you fail. Like when I did the...You know, there's plenty of things that I did that, like, I was, I won't say that I failed at, but I don't really believe in failure. I just don't think it's a thing. I, I think that you do things and you, you just learn from them. You just kind of ... And you have another experience, and you learn from that. And some of them come out the way you expected them to, and some don't come out the way you expected them to. But it's not, uh, uh, a matter of successes or failures 'cause even if it's a success, on whose terms? Like, we don't know the scoreboard of life. So, how are we gonna define, define successes? So, that's why, to me, it's, I've, I've, I've come down to this fulfillment word, which is don't chase joy, don't chase pleasure, but certainly don't chase what mom and dad told you to do or what society is telling you to do. Certainly, don't just do what you're doing now because it's what you did yesterday and the day before and the day before that and the day before that. Pop your head up, take a look around, and go, "What do I want with my life?" Um, and when you come into that answer, maybe ask yourself why a couple times, 'cause it's the asking yourself why ... So, we have this thing, like, ask yourself the five whys. So, um, you know, I wanna start, um,

6. 1:15:00 – 1:21:42

   That's it, man. I…

   1. BBBen Bergeron1:15:01

      I just wanna, I just wanna get, um, I wanna go, I wanna ski. Why? 'Cause, like, uh, it makes me feel, um, I want the, the freedom and the expe- And it's just like, you keep backing up, and what we find out is there wasn't a good why behind that. But it's like, I want to, um, start a training business. Why? And it's like, I ended up coming all the way back to, like, I just feel this incredible responsibility to turn people from potentially liabilities to assets. My biggest fear is that I'm a liability to my family. I just, my family is my, is the whole jam. And my biggest fear is that my family has to take care of me at some point. And I, I just wanna be able to be like, "Grandpa's here," and go, like, skiing with them and, like, do all this really cool, fun stuff. Like, I wanna be an asset at all times, and I wanna be able to do that for other people. And that's the reason why, like, that's, that's my thing. I wanna be able to, um, make other people's lives better by being a part of it. Like, I, I just wanna, um, and I want, uh, to be able to do that for other people. And that's a pretty powerful why for me. That's enough to, like, get me really, really excited to get up at 5:15 every morning. And, uh, when you can ask yourself that one thing that you go, "Yeah, that's the thing," maybe we won't be as stuck.

   2. CWChris Williamson1:16:22

      That's it, man. I think the best heuristic for whether or not you, your life has meaning is, are you excited to get out of bed or not? If you're excited to get out of bed in the morning, you have a reason to. If you're not, I think that there's probably some questions to be asked. One thing-

   3. BBBen Bergeron1:16:37

      Yeah, I like that.

   4. CWChris Williamson1:16:37

      ... you've, you've kept on using the word fulfillment throughout this conversation. What I think is fulfillment is excellence with meaning. The excellence without meaning can be perfection for the, for its own sake. But excellence with meaning is excellence with direction. It's going toward a thing. I got a, I got a last que-

   5. BBBen Bergeron1:16:59

      Yeah.

   6. CWChris Williamson1:16:59

      ... I got a last question. I got asked this on Twitter the other day, and it was really good, so I'm gonna ask you it as well. What do you think Ben 10 years from now would advise Ben now?

   7. BBBen Bergeron1:17:07

      It's a question I ask myself a lot, and that's kind of, um, how I got to where I am, tracking all this stuff and thinking about, um, this kind of hindsight in per- the per- in this present moment right now is, I think I would go, "Hey, it's important that you have some levels of success from the business thing. Like, I think that you're gonna find a lot of fulfillment out of that. I think you're gonna feel value out of that. That seems to be, like, something that you should chase. But more so and equally as important or, like, let's not forget about also your family, and also, let's also, like, continue to learn things as well." And so, the biggest thing for me is that I, I wanna create this balance across, like, uh, if, if, if life is made up of, um, family, career, hobbies, spirituality, health, and maybe another thing. Like, my kind of objective is to tr- just sort of, like, balance those at all points. Not a seesaw, but like, a, a frisbee on a pencil where n- every, you know, nothing tips too much. It might swing a little bit one way or the other, but I've seen too many times friends and, um, you know, parents of my friends that have chased one of those things too far. And, um, it affects all the others. And, uh, what I'm trying to do is create, um, that balance to, to achieve what I think is, um, hopefully gonna lead to a fulfilled life. You know, I, I think along with that is, like, one, the thing I'm starting to learn a little bit through this, uh, meditation practice would be ... So, I'm answering this question twice. Um, like, let it go, bro. Like, (laughs) just, like, this ego thing, this, like, this subconscious pattern recognition thing that we have of, like, this need to be right and this need for, um, attention and this need for, um, you know ... I don't know what it ... Like, I'm gonna ... I'm pretty, you know, it's, it's kind of weird because I have a podcast and I wrote a book and, like, I, I have a social media platform. But I'm a very introverted person. So-Um, when people are introverted, it's kinda like, "Well, that person doesn't have much of an ego." Um, but ego is more than just, like, the need to be in the, the spotlight on them and all that. Ego is like, um, it's so powerful and, um, potentially destructive. And I think it would, I think my future self would go, um, try to be more at peace, in harmony with those around you, and just connect more with people. 'Cause I think that at the end of the day, you know, in terms of, like, we were talking about, like, chasing experiences, I think if you're chasing connection, whatever the experiences you have, whether it's sitting and meditating with somebody, literally kinda like doing nothing, (laughs) or bungee jumping, it doesn't really matter, 'cause it's the connections we have with people that are probably gonna matter the most. That's such, like, a fortune cookie way to end-

   8. CWChris Williamson1:20:42

      (laughs)

   9. BBBen Bergeron1:20:42

      ... a podcast.

   10. CWChris Williamson1:20:44

       I think it's right, man. The trajectory that everyone can look to to kind of predict where they're going to end up is where older people are. And the vast majority of older people, if you look at them, they're not bothered about, like, your grandparents aren't bothered about what car they drive, not necessarily bothered about what shoes they're wearing, not really even too bothered. They've stopped playing status games. Like, what are the things that they're concerned about? They've simplified their life down. They've probably got a little bit more conservative politically. (laughs) Uh, they are not so bothered about sort of chasing pennies. But they're fairly concerned about going to church on Sunday or going to play bowls with their friends or the whatever night they have with their partner. That's what they care about. And we can almost look the same way this evolution works, evolution of life, evolution of a philosophy within a life. That's quite easy to look at. Just look at the people that are older than you.

Episode duration: 1:22:48