Modern WisdomDeath Row's Worst Killers In Their Own Words | Christopher Berry-Dee | Modern Wisdom Podcast 190
EVERY SPOKEN WORD
135 min read · 26,674 words- 0:00 – 15:00
... they'll never get…
- CBChristopher Berry-Dee
... they'll never get scared. If I got scared, they'd smell it. They're like a beast in a cage, and if you get scared, you lose the battle with them instantly. It really is fascinating being up very close and personal, touching. Some are chained up, some aren't. Death can be a heartbeat away for you. They can lose the plot. Normally having corresponded with them sometimes for years, there is this interpersonal relationship. You know how far you can push them, you know what pushes their buttons, you know what annoys them, and it's about manipulation and mind control. They think they're in control, but I'm in control. (wind blows)
- CWChris Williamson
Chris, we have wrangled technology, and we've managed to make it work. We finally got ourselves down to set up opposite each other.
- CBChristopher Berry-Dee
Correct. Yeah. As I said earlier, I'm, I'm a, I'm a Skype virgin.
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs) Well, there's a first time for everything, so, uh, this is gonna be this evening. So, my, my first question for you, you've interviewed some of history's most notorious killers, people like Peter Sutcliffe and Ted Bundy, Aileen Wuornos and Dennis Nelson and Joanne Dennehy and stuff like that. If you're out for dinner with someone new and they say, "So, Chris, what, what do you, what do you do for work?" How would you describe your job?
- CBChristopher Berry-Dee
Um, well, it's actually a bit of a... It- it- it- it's great at parties or barbecues because most barbecues that I've attended in the past are sort of state agents and lawyers, golf club types. And then when they ask you with their nose up in the air, "What do you do for a job?" I'll say, "I interview serial killers." And that instantly attracts a massive crowd, and, and I, I got a lot of fun of looking at these accountants, seeing their jaws drop on the floor. It's different, isn't it?
- CWChris Williamson
It's definitely different, yeah. I mean, it, it must be, uh, uh... You're right. At a barbecue, it must be a very shocking thing to hear, especially just from, you know... Uh, I was prepared. I'm prepared to speak to you having done some research on your background when you were just expecting you to say, "Oh, well, actually I'm the area manager for this accounting firm," or, "I do..." Yeah, "I'm in, I'm in law," or whatever it might be. "Oh, no. I just speak to serial killers." Um, so-
- CBChristopher Berry-Dee
But, but just to clear one thing up, I don't normally go to dos where people don't know me. Most of the people I dine with, when I get a chance and I can afford it, is, um, people that do know me. Um, I, I mean, in the Philippines where I live most- a lot of the year, I mean, I dine with police officers and people like that, and they all, homicide cops, it's America, the same, but I do. But, um, occasionally somebody says, "Oh, I think I saw you on the TV. You know, you're the criminologist," or something. But to me it's just another job, Chris. I mean, it's just another job.
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs) I suppose it is. It's the same for everyone, right? It's just par for the course. Um, so the first question, the burning question I've got for you is, what is it like to sit down and interview these people? Even having had this huge, long, illustrious career that you have with a lot of experience, is there still... Is it still quite an odd experience to go in? And, and also, do you get scared?
- CBChristopher Berry-Dee
Um, to answer the last question first, I never get scared. Um, if I got scared, they'd smell it. Um, they, they can sense it. They're like a beast in a cage. And if you get scared, you lose the battle with them instantly because they're control freaks, they're psychopaths, um, and the minute you do that, you've got to come down to their level straight away. It can be fascinating. It really is fascinating. Uh, they're all different, being up very close and personal, touching. Some are chained up, some aren't. Um, death can be a heartbeat away for you. They can lose the plot. But it's knowing their back history before you go there, normally having corresponded with them sometimes for years, so you- there is this interpersonal relationship. You know how far you can push them, you know what pushes their buttons, you know what annoys them, um, and it's about manipulation and mind control. So I, I never get scared. I, I, I'm in control. They think they're in control, but I'm in control.
- CWChris Williamson
You, uh, you had a, a good example of that the first character in your new Talking With Serial Killers book, Dead Men Talking, John Robinson. I think that was probably a pretty good example of someone who thought he was in control-
- CBChristopher Berry-Dee
Right.
- CWChris Williamson
... and that you turned the tables on him, right?
- CBChristopher Berry-Dee
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Homicidal dough boy. Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs) Yeah, that was how you described him.
- CBChristopher Berry-Dee
I said that actually on a, a, a TV series. I think it was called Born To Kill or something, and they had the crew on the floor in stitches. And I said, "Are you gonna leave that in?" And they said, "Yeah, we'll leave it in." So that's great. But that's what he was. I mean, you do look at him, he was, he was, he was just full of bullshit. I mean, you know, he, he's a cartoon character really if you a- if you take away all the horror of his crimes and his manipulations, there is black humor there.
- CWChris Williamson
Mmm.
- CBChristopher Berry-Dee
You know?
- CWChris Williamson
So why do these serial killers open up to you at all? Why, why you?
- CBChristopher Berry-Dee
Well, interesting question. Um, I think if we come away from serial killers, we go to John Cannan who murdered Shirley Banks in Bristol, definitely to Suzy Lamplugh, um, and certainly Sandra Court in Bournemouth. Uh, to give you an idea, um, when his case, when he was finally locked up for life, um, I, I wrote to him to say that I wanted to write a book about him.... um, and he came back very cocky and said, um, "Oh, well, no. I've got, I've got dozens of authors and publishers want my exclusive story." So then, I got John Blake, my publisher to, sort of, send me some pictures of my book covers, and I sent him those with a letter saying, "Well, thanks very much. I really wanted your assistance. I think you've been stitched up by the police, John. I'll write the story without your cooperation. Thanks a lot." So I put him between a rock and a hard place. And I tried to use the same fishing techniques with women and male serial killers in finding out what their wants and their needs are. It's like beach fishing. You, you know where the fish swim, like Robinson, you know what he wants, but it's a case of casting the right bait to catch him. Uh, with Melanie Maguire, who's in that book, The Ice Queen, she was in New Jersey, upscale woman, good lifestyle, chopped up her husband and threw him in bits and pieces in the Chesapeake Bay. But, but, but she had hundreds of letters and publishers wanting her, so I wrote on conqueror, cream conqueror paper, like this. This laid, laid stuff, this cream stuff, with an envelope, and then I put my family crest wax seal on it, and I sprayed it with, um, Chanel Egoiste. So when she opened the letter, she's got an airmail stamp from England, which makes it different. It's classy stationary. She opens it and there's this sense, this smell, that she remembers. Egoiste, oh yeah. And it's something that she'll come back to, because this, it's a sensory thing. So I used that bait with her.
- CWChris Williamson
It's interesting that you managed to get yourself through the door using, by, um, finding out what these people want. What it is that they want and then dangling that. But how about when you actually sit down with them? Have you got a process? Obviously, you s- you tend to spend a lot of time corresponding back and forth.
- CBChristopher Berry-Dee
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
But when you eventually do get face-to-face with them, what, uh, you know, what is it that you're doing, what is it that you're saying or the way that you're acting which is encouraging them to give away more than they usually should?
- CBChristopher Berry-Dee
Well, one of the tricks of the trade, if you like, is one thing that law enforcement, my friends in the FBI, um, uh, will tell you and British police, you can't, br- br- po- police can't use entrapment. They can't use, they can't entrap a, a, a person.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- CBChristopher Berry-Dee
So, but I can. And, and it's really about making them feel comfortable with you, and you letting them know that although that you're on their side, but you know you're not on their side. And you are, you're chatting really. And now there could be an end game to it for me, like with Arthur Shawcross, I wanted him to, to confess to the murder of a little school boy called Jack Blake. And he, he, he told me, you know, he uses the language now, but he was inches away from me and, and the guard said, "If he loses the plot, he could tear your head off, Christopher, and we won't be in the room." Now, with Shawcross, he, he, he literally boiled over. He went white, his face went white, sweat pouring down his face when I mentioned Jack Blake. He told me not to ever mention it, otherwise he'd kill me. And he, and he was well, I leant forward and touched his knee, and I said to him, "Well, your girlfriend Clara is waiting outside, and she's asked me to be the best man at your wedding, Arthur. And she's going to go ape if you don't tell me the whole truth." And then his face, it's, there's in a TV, there's a TV interview or you can see it online on the program, and, and, and, um, he cracked. And the fury went, and he, he confessed. Uh, and it's a case of sometimes they'll eyeball you, and they will say something bragging about, like Michael Ross did, the strangulation marks, multiple marks around his v- victim's neck, so he got a kick out of that. He giggled. And then I looked at him straight in the face and said to him, "Mike, you know, you're not a big serial killer really are you? I mean seven or eight, you're not Ted Bundy, give me a break, come on boy." And he just looked stunned. And then he went on to try to describe more about what he'd done. You know? And, and I got two cold cases I cleared up with him, which were Xun Not Tu at Cornell University, and a, a little girl called Kimberly, Kimberly Logan in, um, Crystal Run. So, it depends how you play it. I mean, sometimes it's a serious matter because you're there to try to, try to bring closure to the next of kin.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- CBChristopher Berry-Dee
And you're the only person going to talk to him. So there is a heavy side of it.
- CWChris Williamson
It seem, I mean, the s- the fact that you've said that you don't get scared and yet there is a guy that says "I'll fucking kill you," you know that the police or the, the guards are far enough away for him to be able to do some serious damage before they could get in. Like that takes, that takes some balls.
- CBChristopher Berry-Dee
Well, with, uh, with Kenneth Bianchi, the notorious Hill- Hillside Strangler, I interviewed him at the Washington State Penitentiary in a small room. And there was only a wooden table between us, a small table. And he's got the eyes of a great white shark, black, and they don't blink. And it, you're looking into the face of evil. You can smell it. And he's a big guy. He's strong. They do weights every day at yard time, you know, they're a load of fucking idiots. So anyway, he's sitting across this table and he's eyeballing me. And I just kept looking at him, and I got up and I walked round to his side of the table and I put my arm round him and I whispered in his ear, and I said, "Listen, you fucking miserable motherfucker." I said, "Give me a smile. Come on."... and he cracked. And that was all.
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- 15:00 – 30:00
Exactly. …
- CWChris Williamson
that's why it's important for what you said at the beginning, for you to go in, to not show fear, to have this image, because that weakness is what they're looking for.
- CBChristopher Berry-Dee
Exactly.
- CWChris Williamson
I get it.
- CBChristopher Berry-Dee
That's how they screw up, that's how they screw up the psychiatrists' brains and minds, because th- they know they can run rings around psychiatrists. They know a lot of the time they can run rings around the cops. But what they can't do is they get stuck in a corner with me when they think, "Oh, Christopher's gonna write a book all about me. He's gonna make a TV program. I'm gonna be famous." The, the, the s- the stuff before they start, that's the point. I can tell the next one, "I've been on a podcast with you and we're famous." They love it. (laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
That's it, man. I mean, uh, p- probably, probably keep me anonymous. If, if it's, if it's okay. Keep my, keep my name anonymous.
- CBChristopher Berry-Dee
Oh. Cool.
- CWChris Williamson
But I guess they're behind bars. What are they gonna do? Um, so your new book, Dead Men Talking, looks at killers that are on death row. Is there anything different about the dynamic with these people in that they're on death row rather than just potentially serving life in prison?
- CBChristopher Berry-Dee
Um, I've walked what they call many a Green Mile. You remember the film with Stephen King, The Green Mile? Of course, they're not green at all. They're pastel shades sometimes. Um, they are not no longer like we, we see in The Green Mile. They're not so antiquated. Uh, San Quentin, um, the, uh, condemned row at San Quentin State Prison is pretty grim. Um, but there is a certain amount of... They are dead men walking, and, and they are... They come to the end of the line. Th- their only hope is that the Lord will save them and get them a reduced sentence or off the hook before they're given the goodnight juice. So there is that certain quietness. Now, if you come down a level or up a level from death row, you get the special housing units where they're completely bonkers, and it's like being at London Zoo on a crazy day. They're screeching and throwing shit at each other and howling and spitting. It's like a madhouse. But-
- CWChris Williamson
Is, is that with the ones with psychia- the psychiatric problems?
- CBChristopher Berry-Dee
Um, no, not all of them. They're just like... But the, the death row inmates are like a... Or l- let's just say, th- they're more... they've got more respect. They've done the ultimate crime. Now, if they may be a child killer, then they're gonna be sort of put to one side. But the point is there is that sort of a hierarchy in the prison system where a death row inmate is... When I go to interview a death row inmate, they lock down the prison if I want him out of his cell. There's a complete lockdown of the whole facility. Th- nothing moves. And then they bring the inmate shackled with guards, immaculately dressed guards either side of them, and he's shackled up. And they'll bring him to you, and it will be up to me whether I decide whether I want them comfortable and unshackled or, "I want to get them a bar of candy or Coca-Cola."... and quite often I'll tell the guards, "Get him this or get him that," and the inmate likes that because the guards are telling the inmate what to do every day, and here am I telling them what to do. But it's all prearranged. It's all like a soap opera, really.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm. Mm. So, i- it gives, gives that impression that you're on their side, "Look, this is us working together. I'm one of you," et cetera, et cetera. So, do you tend to prefer to have the inmates without restraints to make them feel more comfortable when you can?
- CBChristopher Berry-Dee
Yeah, I think one of the only, I mean, sometimes they're behind a screen, like Kenneth McDuff, uh, death row Ellis unit before he was executed in Texas. Um, he was behind, some are behind screens, which is great. Douglas Clark, the Sunset Slayer, in San Quentin Prison, he was heavily shackled, but he, he was going ape. I mean, he was really in a foul mood. It took me ages to calm him down before we got the cameras rolling. But with Dougie, it was a matter of him attacking the guards, not attacking me, so that's the difference.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- CBChristopher Berry-Dee
With Michael Ross and some of the other killers, like Shawcross and some of the others, I will say, "Look, if you're gonna behave yourself, we'll get the shackles taken off and we'll get some Coke and we'll get some candy down here and we'll gonna have a nice comfortable chat. But don't mess me about, 'cause you'll go back down the hole." And then that's it.
- CWChris Williamson
I get it. Okay, so we've got a good understanding there of the process of how you're speaking to them, how you build rapport, stuff like that.
- CBChristopher Berry-Dee
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
I wanna get into the, um, actual pathology, the way that these guys and these women think. Um, first question is, is there a common theme among serial killers? U- upon reading this most recent book of yours, they, they come from all IQ points, there's different backgrounds, there's different approaches. You got one person, uh, one killer who's putting people into barrels to leave them to liquidate in their own fluids. You've got another that's eating the ears, uh, of the victims that he kills. You know, it, it seems to be all over the place. So, what are the commonalities, or are there any?
- CBChristopher Berry-Dee
Can I ask you a question? We're social distancing at the moment, aren't we?
- CWChris Williamson
Yes.
- CBChristopher Berry-Dee
Presently now.
- CWChris Williamson
Yes.
- CBChristopher Berry-Dee
Can I smoke? 'Cause I like a cigarette.
- CWChris Williamson
Absolutely. That's absolutely fine by me.
- CBChristopher Berry-Dee
(laughs) I don't want the smoke to upset you.
- CWChris Williamson
No, not at all. I can't s- I can't smell it through the, uh, through the microphone anyway.
- CBChristopher Berry-Dee
All right. Okay. Um, they have different psychopathologies. Okay? None of them are the same. They're all totally different. The- they are... Every single one of them, you try to look for something common amongst them and you can't find it. What they will tell you is that they were abused as a child, or had a bad upbringing, or they were badly potty-trained, or they were only allowed to drink green top milk but they wanted blue top milk. There's all sorts of bullshit excuses for why they do what they do.
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- CBChristopher Berry-Dee
You got Peter Sutcliffe saying it was the word of God when he was digging a grave to kill prostitutes. But then he didn't just kill working girls, did he? He killed, he killed innocent ordinary girls, c- classy girls. Uh, the same with Harvey the Hammer, the Carrig- Harvey the Ha- Hammer Carrignan in the Minnesota Correctional Facility. 50 victims. Um, when he went to trial, he, he said that God told him to kill these women. And he wore a white robe and some leather throng sandals. And when, when he got sentenced to life in prison, his lawyers... He had to go for another trial and his lawyer turned around to him and said, "Look, Harvey," he said, "God didn't help you last time, I don't think he's gonna help you next time." The- I mean, they are. Some... I mean, I know it's black humor, but, I mean, you're t- It's a serious subject, but, you know, when, when you're there when they're exhuming a body that you've helped get out of the ground, like in Waco, the cops are actually very, very loving and careful with the corpse and everything else. But there is a little bit of black humor going around. It has to, 'cause it releases the pressure.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- CBChristopher Berry-Dee
'Cause they're as well. So, they're all... The answer to your question is short, I- they're all different.
- 30:00 – 45:00
Jim, now, the- you…
- CWChris Williamson
two firsts that we can chalk up this evening, Christopher. Your first podcast, and the first time in about 200 episodes that the term menstrual blood has ever been used. So, I mean, what is going on? What is the obsession here? Is it that the, the women find this level of dominance and aggression, uh, and, and, um-... undiluted masculinity attractive? Is that what it is?
- CBChristopher Berry-Dee
Jim, now, the- you asked me a question I haven't got the answer 'cause I can't get inside. I mean, I don't understand women at the best of times.
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- CBChristopher Berry-Dee
Let alone somebody that writes to some cannibal who's been in the vagina of some woman. I mean, that was Arthur Shawcross. I mean, the girl wanted to marry him. But the thing is, they don't seem to get it. They don't think, "Oh, I better go and look at the scenes of crime photographs and see if I can get those through the Freedom of inform- information Act in America, or I'll go online and see what, what he did to these people." That's stupid. That's it. Thick. Stupid.
- CWChris Williamson
It's dangerous, man. It really is, I suppose-
- CBChristopher Berry-Dee
That's what 80 year- 80-year-old women are writing to some, what they, a big black hunk in Florida who calls himself Florida's finest chocolate. And she's in love with him. And he's, he's, she's sending him money every week, but he's got a dozen or so women like sending him money. It is a lunacy. They ought to be locked up. They ought to sit in an electric chair for 10 minutes and see what it feels like.
- CWChris Williamson
I'm doing something wrong here because-
- CBChristopher Berry-Dee
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
... I'm, I'm, I'm 32 and single, and these guys have just got harems of women chasing after them, giving them money, real chocolate, or whatever he's called over in Florida, having a whale of a time.
- CBChristopher Berry-Dee
Yeah, but there's, there's a big difference. You're imprisoned in your own home like I am right now. They're gonna sit in an electric chair.
- CWChris Williamson
That is true. Um, so we understand that there aren't necessarily any commonalities between the killers, the way that they, the reasons that they kill, their justification for it, both publicly and privately are all different. What about commonalities between the victims that they go for? You mentioned that they tend to be weaker people like women, children.
- CBChristopher Berry-Dee
Yeah. Women, children, the elderly, the vulnerable in society. Um, most serial killers have what they call their own victimology, their own preferred victim type. And now your viewers can go online and they can look up Ted Bundy's victims, and you'll see they almost look all of them like sisters, sorority sisters, in fact. They were, most of them were sorority sisters. You couldn't have they, you line 'em up, they'd all look the same. Long hair, same looks, same ages, that sort of thing. That's what turned Bundy on. That sort. You've got Henry Lucas and Otis Toole. Now, I interviewed Henry, um, when old dear old Henry down in, um, Flo- in Texas, um, while he w- was on the row. He was subsequently, um, uh, given a life sentence then he died of natural causes, by the then, um, president who was buh- uh, the governor then was Bush, I think it was. But, but they went for everything. I mean, they mur- they, they, they raped and murdered chickens and dogs and cats and young girls and children and old men and old ladies. I mean, they, they went through the whole shebang. They did everything. I mean, there's a lot of frightened chickens in Texas, I can tell you.
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs) That's, that is that dark humor that we were talking about again, isn't it? Um, why is there often an element of sex involved in the crimes, and is there, is it almost always that there's some sort of sexual gratification going on?
- CBChristopher Berry-Dee
With serial killers, certainly. Um, the, the, I think the only serial killer I've ever interviewed that wasn't sexually motivated was, um, John Scripps from the Isle of Wight. Uh, he was 34 years old. Uh, I watched him being hanged in Changi Prison years ago. It was on my birthday, the 18th of April, funny enough.
- CWChris Williamson
Happy birthday. (laughs)
- CBChristopher Berry-Dee
Um, the police, the police, the police gave me a presentation mug when I left the country with, um, with a picture of, um, a man hanging from a tree. But, but John, he, he killed for money. He, he, he, he'd gone to Cancun and he murdered a, a young, um, uni guy called, um, Timothy McDowall, um, got him to give him his PIN numbers, and then he chopped and fed him to the alligators. Then later on in his, he went to prison then years later for drug smuggling. Um, he got 15 years, but he walked out of a prison, an open prison about two years later, after telling everybody he was gonna escape. He just walked out of the gate. Nobody took any notice. Um, and he was taught butchery skills on the Isle of Wight by a prison officer called Quigley, and he learned how to dismember carcasses while in prison. So the prison taught him how to dismember victims. So he then went to, um, Singapore where he met, uh, a South African businessman called Gerard George Low, who was in Singapore buying electrical stuff 'cause it was cheaper back in those days. It's not anymore, it's more expensive, but then it was. And, and, uh, they shared the same hotel room, and then John hit him with a camping hammer and then got his PIN number, extracted his PIN number out of him, and then he took, dragged him into the bathroom, and then he stuck a knife in his neck and bled him to death, chopped him up, put him in suitcases and dumped them into the, into the Singapore Bay. Then he went straight to t- did a bit more shopping, went to the opera on his business card. He went to Thailand, he went to Phuket, he met Sheila and her son, Darren Damude, who was on a gap leave 'cause he'd broken his leg. Uh, he stayed at Nilly's Inn w- uh, Nilly's Marina Inn in Phuket on the beach there. Uh, he killed them both. He stunned them with a stun gun, dismembered them, put their bodies down a mine shaft. But like an idiot, he went back to Singapore, and by then the body bo- the body parts of Gerard Low had popped up in the Singapore harbor. Gerard Lim, Detective Superintendent Gerald Lim, who I know very well, he put out a hotel call for anybody not paying their bills, the name of Low.... and he trapped, they caught John, and then they hanged him. And I, I interviewed John, um, on the Monday before his execution. And I said to him, "John, why didn't you appeal?" He said, "They won't hang me, Chris. I'm British." (laughs) By Friday, they'd tore his head off.
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- CBChristopher Berry-Dee
Well, they hung him between two Thai bandits. He r- refused to be weighed for the drop. He put ... he did put up a spirited fight, but they broke his nose and his jaw. They put ... they stripped him naked, and then they put him on the drop between two Thai bandits. And they-
- CWChris Williamson
What's, what's a Thai bandit, sorry?
- CBChristopher Berry-Dee
Thai, Thai, T- Tha- They were Thais. Two, two, two-
- CWChris Williamson
Oh, Thai bandits. Sorry. Yeah.
- CBChristopher Berry-Dee
Yeah. Not, not the ones you get from a shop like 2 Club's a Thai shop.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- CBChristopher Berry-Dee
And, and then, and then what happened was they ... I, I was doing some stuff with APTV at the time, and I was g- ... I covered the execution. And, um, and then I went to the cremation and, um, interviewed the Thai ambassador. And then they had to bring his ashes back to England. So we, we had a little draw who was gonna keep the ashes in their bedroom, but I rigged it. I didn't want 'em.
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- CBChristopher Berry-Dee
But they, they hanged John. Yeah. They, uh, because he refused to be weighed, his head was nearly whipped off.
- CWChris Williamson
Broken nose, broken jaw, naked, hung.
- CBChristopher Berry-Dee
Crapping himself. The other two guys were standing there as good as gold. He, he put up a fight. The priest at the time had been there for years and years and years, and he came outside and he wept, and he said to me, "Chris, Chris," he said, "I'm never gonna go to an execution again. That was terrible." Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
The struggle and the, the, the fact that it didn't go down smoothly, is that what disturbed the priest?
- CBChristopher Berry-Dee
Yeah. It was awful. I'd, I'd ... I've, I've seen a few executions in my time, shootings. I mean, I was in the Marines for years. I've seen a lot of executions and terrible things, but that was an execution that, you know, you look back at it and you think, "My God." The reason he was naked was because they, they, they told him to get out of his prison shorts. He had flip-flops and prison shorts. Because if you went to the gallows with those, you soiled the shorts, and then they gotta wash 'em. So they told him to put his civilian clothes on, and he said no. And with that, they just dragged him out of his cell, whole load of 'em, beat the hell out of him. He didn't ... he, he put up a fight.
- 45:00 – 1:00:00
That's not the German…
- CBChristopher Berry-Dee
"No dumping of rubbish here." And yet there's all this garbage scattered and two little girls. I mean, that is so sick. You can't imagine it.
- CWChris Williamson
That's not the German guy though, right? Or was that the German guy?
- CBChristopher Berry-Dee
Oh, no. That was not... The last one, no, just before, that was Kenneth Bianchi, the Hillside Strangler.
- CWChris Williamson
Yep.
- CBChristopher Berry-Dee
Now he, he's married three women in prison, and they've divorced him, and he's fleeced them of money. And he now is an ordained priest and a member of the American Bar Association. Now get your head around that.
- CWChris Williamson
So this is, this... The multifaceted life that serial killers seem to lead, Ted Bundy re- uh, self-representing, you know, saying, "Oh, I, I, I'm gonna put my own case forward. I'd like to do my own..." Getting rid of his, um, representation at the time and then deciding that he was gonna step up, and, you know, someone that then becomes ordained and then passes the bar. Like, these, there's obviously a lot of momentum behind these individuals. They have capacity to do things. It's just that it's directed into such a heinous, destructive path.
- CBChristopher Berry-Dee
Coming back to Bundy, he was too clever for his own good. Um, when he eventually faced trial, when he eventually was arrested down in Florida, and, and I went to the, I've been to the Kiamega House where he killed, um, Liza Levy and Bowman and attempted to kill another one. And, um, I interviewed the cops there as well, quite interesting, um, thing. But I met his lawyer. What was the prosecutor or the lawyer? And he said, "Oh, Chris, here's something you might be interested in." He said, "This is what, what got Bundy the electric chair." And I thought, "What's this then?" And he held out a pair of white dentures, casts, white casts. He said, "Yeah, old days." I said, "Whose are these then?" (laughs) A pair of some teeth. He said, "That's Ted Bundy's original dentures that were taken after he was arrested." And I said to the lawyer, I said, "Well, he didn't have to give those to you, did he?" You know. He said, "We conned him." He said, "We told him because he was famous and the press would be in front of him, in front of the cameras all the time, he should look his best, and his teeth really needed some work." So they took... And he agreed because he was vain and he was a narcissistic little pig. And so they took these dentures, but then they compared those dentures with the bite marks on Liza Levy's buttocks.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- CBChristopher Berry-Dee
And that was the death sentence, too clever for his own good.
- CWChris Williamson
I remember, I remember watching that in the documentary and, uh... I- hearing you speak about these individuals and, and the way that you write as well in the book, um, it's very evocative. Um, you, you put your own opinion into the way that you describe them as well. And I don't know whether it's simply because it's not my profession and I've never been exposed to them, but I just can't get over how ballsy it is. It, to me, it just f- it seems like such a brave thing to do, to spe- And I know it's stupid. Like Ted Bundy's gone, I can say whatever I want about him. But there's part of me that fears, still fears even the essence of them. Does that make sense? There's part of me-
- CBChristopher Berry-Dee
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... that wants to almost distance myself from, from saying anything for fear that this creature in the night's going to somehow come and enact retribution.
- CBChristopher Berry-Dee
No, well, you're not... If you're a God... I'm a, I'm a pretty God-fearing person, believe it or not. I mean, I've, might not... I have, I have got a nicked copy of Gideon's Bible, which I carry with me.
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs) You're not supposed to nick it. Christopher, come on.
- CBChristopher Berry-Dee
Well, no, sorry, I beg your pardon. No, it found its way into my suitcase. So it-
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs) I promise, your honor. I promise.
- CBChristopher Berry-Dee
... I didn't ... N- No, when the maid came and cleared out the room, and she was asking me, I said, "Oh, um," you know, I said, "I'm a God-fearing person." And I think she probably thought it was, it was my Bible, and she was very kind to put it in there. And, uh, a- as I was on a flight back to the UK from the Philippines, I, I thought, "Well, I better, better keep it." And I do, I do pray every night. I mean, I do, I do pray. I mean, I, I was on, um, a particularly horrible homicide in Manila, um, was it this year? Late last year, yeah, Halloween last year, um, a friend of mine, I won't say who he is, works at the American Embassy asked me, um, could I go and visit head of homicide in McCarthy in Manila. Um, it was a working girl that had been axed, tortured. Um, we did some pro... c- well, I did a bit of crime profiling. I've got some photographs of me with the major. They treated me like gold, and he's got some of my books now. But, but we caught the guy. He was a German guy. It was, it wasn't hard. But they're not particularly crime profile oriented out there in the Philippines. What they do is they catch somebody, then they shoot them dead. They don't worry, you know. And, uh, but this was a particularly high... I mean, I saw the... I, I, I... The girl died. She, she was beautiful. She was a working girl. She was only 32. She had two kiddies. She had to go on the streets to earn money. She was absolutely stunningly beautiful in life. And, um, they tied her up, tortured her, and the last thing that she did was one, one eye opened, and a tear ran down her cheek. And, um, and she died. Um, and when the, we, we got the guy within three days. I mean, it wasn't difficult to profile him because her body ended up a long way from where she was last seen in a nightclub. So that stands that the person must have had his own car. And then with... I, we got the CCTV, and there were other witnesses, and there was a tall guy they thought who was German with a tattoo on his shoulder. And me and the guy from the embassy, American Embassy, sat down with his girls 'cause they were reluctant to talk to the police. And one of them happened to mention in passing, "Oh, he's friends on Facebook." Thought, "What a crack." So went through the Facebook, and there's a list of contacts. And this girl says, said, "That's him." Now the thing was, I was flying back on the Sunday, on the 7th, I think it was. Um, business class flight to, uh, um, Em- to Dubai and then back to London with, uh, Emirates. And that morning, the police were gonna raid. They were gonna catch him that m... They, they said, "We're gonna get him, Chris." And they, and they said, "We're gonna smash it if it goes SWAT teams out there to go for him." And the, and the major said, "Look, Chris," he said, "you can have my gun," he said, "and you can shoot him if you like." I mean it. Don't mess about out there, I tell you.
- CWChris Williamson
They are not messing about at all.
- CBChristopher Berry-Dee
No, I'm telling you this is God's truth. Later, I, I, I learned. I said, "Well, he'll get a life sentence." They said, "Oh, well, not really." And, uh, what they do is they take them to court in, in, like, a pickup, a truck with a, just a tarpaulin on the top and wooden benches. And the sides are up 'cause it's hot.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- CBChristopher Berry-Dee
And two motorcycles with a pass- pillion passenger drew up alongside with crash helmets on and shot his, blew his head off. That was it. Peace. Why bother with a trial? (coughs)
- CWChris Williamson
It's a lot, (laughs) a, a lot quicker and simpler to just kill them on the way there.
- CBChristopher Berry-Dee
Yeah, well, yeah. Saves all the problem with the embassies and all this sort of stuff, and that was all done and dusted.
- CWChris Williamson
That is insane. And so tell us about the, the German fella that you mentioned, the one that you said was pretty disturbing.
- CBChristopher Berry-Dee
Peter Kurten. If you look up evil and depraved in a Roget's Thesaurus for depravity, and then look at all the synonyms that go all the way down that list, he's one of them. In fact, if you look up depraved in the dictionary, Peter Kurten's face will be looking back at you.
- CWChris Williamson
Why?
- CBChristopher Berry-Dee
He was... I can tell you 'cause I've just started a chapter on him. I'd put, "How can one possibly sum up sadist sexual serial killer Peter Kurten? In an effort to answer this question, one might require Roget's Thesaurus and look up depraved. Since, to the synonyms running along these lines, sexual pervert, beastly and evil, genius, vile, base, corrupt, contemptible, murderous, et cetera, et cetera. A putrid, nauseous, loathsome, diabolic example of the devil's spawn might be our starting point."
- CWChris Williamson
Fairly big headline. Fairly big headline.
- CBChristopher Berry-Dee
A very nasty little man.
- CWChris Williamson
What did he do?
- 1:00:00 – 1:15:00
But then you let…
- CBChristopher Berry-Dee
He picked up... he walked over to this guy, took the rake off, and smacked him round the head with a rake. And he said, "He won't come into my cell tonight and buzz around." (laughs) And they let him out of Broadmoor. They let him out.
- CWChris Williamson
But then you let him, you let him into your house.
- CBChristopher Berry-Dee
Yeah, because there was something about Paul that I felt very, very safe with. Um, he was very funny, he had a very boyish laugh about him, but he was fascinated with oil paintings and he produced some of the most beautiful copy oil painters. And I, I, I had one for years actually, The Green Lady. Um, and I am quite a well-known oil painter as well. And, um, we both hit it off. I mean, I hit it off with Peter Sutcliffe because Peter Sutcliffe was doing watercol- uh, watercolors at the time in Broadmoor, so we had that...... thing about painting. So, you don't always go in like a bull in a china shop. Sometimes it's finding out, like I said, what paint to use.
- CWChris Williamson
I get that, but letting someone into your house that you know is capable of this, and by definition-
- CBChristopher Berry-Dee
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... the fact that within a week or a couple of weeks later he then-
- CBChristopher Berry-Dee
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... went, committed a crime, committed suicide. Like, it's ob- it's obvious that it wasn't... he hadn't rid himself of this. I've just, again, I just keep coming back to the fact that I can't... it's a big pair of brass balls-
- CBChristopher Berry-Dee
Well-
- CWChris Williamson
... that you've got on you.
- CBChristopher Berry-Dee
Well, all I can say is, I was in the Marines for 11 years and I don't give a rat's about anything. I was a Green Beret. But the thing is, your viewers can look up Paul Beecham, B-E-E-C-H-A-M, Paul Beecham, on Google. Um, he... while he was... when he came out... uh, he was on... he was heavily sedated when he was released under supervision. He- he married this woman, by the way. Um, and then he started... when we were walking along the river, he said, "Chris, they're watching me all the time." He said, "In my..." He had a sign writing business. And he said, "Chris, they're watching me all the time. They talk about me in the local pubs, mate." He said, "My- my wife, she's- she's gossiping behind my back." And, um, he had two sons, funnily enough, and they... uh, she said, "Well, I think you ought to sit down with my boys and tell them what... your history, 'cause I know." And he did. He sat down with his two sons and told them that he was a mass killer and he'd come out of Broadmoor, and they accepted him. He was a good dad. He turned into a good dad. But he was a schizophrenic, and when the medication wore off and he refused to take more medication, he became more schizophrenic, more paranoid. I met him in that period where he was... and what I- we were doing, we were a form of escapism, with the paintings. We talked about canvases, pigments, brushes, sables, bristle brushes, palettes. We talked about it. You know? And he loved dogs, so that was it. So, there we are. But the fact that he cleaned up the kitchen tidy and he left a note meant a lot to me.
- CWChris Williamson
I think the crazy thing to take away, or at least the th- one of the things I'm taking away is that, these people are so multifaceted. You look at- you look at someone like that gentleman, or Ted Bundy, or this John Robinson or whoever it might be, and I think it- it seems safer to presume that they are across the board crazy, that you would be able to pick them out a mile off because they'd be walking down the street pulling the heads off birds and- and wearing a big yellow T-shirt, dancing upside down. But I think the fact that someone who's capable of that sort of atrocity is also capable of doing good watercolor and will clean your kitchen and leave you a note saying thank you in the morning, the fact that you have that juxtaposition between the incredibly normal and the incredibly abnormal, I think that's-
- CBChristopher Berry-Dee
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... that's what- that's what's really disturbing me.
- CBChristopher Berry-Dee
Well, the thing with Paul, he was genuinely mentally ill. Peter Sutcliffe conned himself into Broadmoor. He wasn't mentally ill. He conned the psychiatrists there for years before they moved him to a secure prison because he was too mouthy. He wasn't mentally ill. But- but Paul- Paul Beecham was mentally ill. There's no doubt about that at all. He was a sick man. And, you know, I have to have some compassion for somebody that is mentally ill because it is not their problem. He's not a s-... he wasn't a psychopath. He wasn't evil in the sense that we... that he went out to rape and kill and torture people. He- he just felt th- the worms inside his head, eating inside his head. You... that is a sad situation to be in, and I- I've got every sympathy for somebody like that. So I felt safe with him. I knew where we were together. You know? But- but the scum that I work with generally and research and write about are just pure evil.
- CWChris Williamson
They're in control of their faculties. They know what they're doing. They know why they're doing it.
- CBChristopher Berry-Dee
Yeah. 100%. 100%. And, you know, you could be sitting... like, a woman could be sitting on a bus and a man could be watching her from- from a seat back. Next day, he might- she might see him again in the supermarket and think, "I s- I saw him on the bus." That guy could be a stalker. I've just written a book about homicidal stalking, comes out next June.
- CWChris Williamson
You are on fire at the moment.
- CBChristopher Berry-Dee
Well, I've got another four- five books to write. I mean, I'm a brand with WHSmith Travel now. I'm the same... I'm in the... I- I just can't believe it. I mean, I'd never written a book for money. I wrote my first book about Craig and Bentley years ago called Dad Help Me Please. Robin Odell, the criminal... uh, the great writer, um, went as a lead title, like, Teaching Me To Rope, but I was the lead author. That book got Derek Bentley a posthumous pardon. It made the film Let 'Em Have It starring Christopher Eccleston. And the following year, it was the Reader's Digest non-fiction hardback number one title. And I said, after the stress of that, I thought, "I'll never write a book again." About 38 books later... (laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs) You're a glu- you're a glutton for punishment, Christopher. I have to say, you know, you- you write... walking through WHSmith, especially because of the way that your covers are designed, I think the Talking With Serial Killers stuff particularly really stands out. I don't know what it is about it-
- CBChristopher Berry-Dee
Well, tha-
- CWChris Williamson
It's very grabbing.
- CBChristopher Berry-Dee
... tha- tha- that's a- that's a brand... years ago, uh, 19- 19... 2001, 2003, I'd done all these serial killer interviews and I approached a number of publishers. One was Virgin, who I'd been published with before, to say that I've got... I'm gonna use all the killers' own words in this lot.... and in those days, I mean, the, the serial killer series we made, 11, 12-part series, 11 part, made with Fraser Ashford, they, they, they'd never ever been imprisoned before. You, uh, we broke the mold. We were the ones just sitting there with the killers face-to-face, and it'd never been done before. That was a groundbreaker. And then I wrote this book, and of course the, Virgin turned around and said to me over the phone, um, "Well, Chris, I'm sorry, but it's not for us." (microphone static) It's not the sort of book, it might upset our ladies with gray rinses." And then 10 minutes later, John Blake phoned me, he said, "I'll have it." He took a brave move, 'cause the first time a book ever been published in criminal history that, uh, contained the killer's own terrible words. Then an hour later, Virgin rang back and said, "We've reconsidered, we'll have that book." (microphone feedback) I said, "Sorry, I've sold it." Now it was John, it was John Blake who, who came up with Talking With the- Talking With Serial Killers brand, if you like.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- CBChristopher Berry-Dee
And now it's, that's what it is.
- CWChris Williamson
Absolutely fine. I, um... The mad thing is, the serial killer, true crime obsession appears to skew quite heavily female, in my knowledge, in any case. So Virgin perhaps letting that one slide, perhaps that was exactly the sort of thing they needed to just reignite their ladies with the gray rinses and get them back into the, the book buying force.
- CBChristopher Berry-Dee
Yeah. I think, the one, the one thing I'm always keen to stress in all our books is, is empathy and sadness (microphone static) and for the grieving next of kin. I think you can never ever make these peop- Well, there's a movie called Bundy, Ted Bundy: The American Icon. Icon? They don't, what does icon mean? He's not, they're not, he's not iconic, he's just a scumbag. But the thing is, I've always got this thing, because when I, uh, interviewed Arthur Shawcross about Jack Blake, I'd been to see his sister, and his, her family, and they lived in a little, little place, it was a bit of a tip. And they went out and they got some British tea. Had a camera crew with me. And his sister and his family were there, and she'd gone to have her hair done, Chris, specially, and she said to me, "Could you please try to get out..." She said, "No, Arthur hasn't killed Jack," she said, "because every day we, we look out the window and then whis- we're gonna see Jack walk down the road one day." Well, I, that's why I got that confession out of Ge- Shawcross for Jack Blake. And I went back, uh, to his sister and her family, and they were shaking, and I said to the fr- the camera crew, "Outside." And I sat down with her, and she burst into tears. When I did one, uh, a girl called Melissa Moore down in Texas with Arthur Shawcross, I interviewed the mother, the body hadn't been recovered, uh, it was, um, Kenneth McDuff, a little girl. And I sat with her and her husband in a motel with a crew, and she told me that she'd been ra- walking round the dirt roads of Texas every night with a spade, looking for her child. She was a rep. I got her to look at the camera and plead with McDuff to, "Please give me my daughter back, as your mother would want your body back after you've gone." And I went to, I got a confession, uh, it's in one of my books, I wheedled a confession out of him, and, uh, we found the body trussed up in a drain hole, within 100 yards of a freeway, where if she screamed nobody would've heard her. This poor little kid, trussed up. I went back to her mum, and I said, "We've found your daughter." And her mother burst into tears. And I went outside and I smoked, and I must have had about 20 cigarettes in 10 minutes.
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- CBChristopher Berry-Dee
Seriously. And I started to cry, 'cause I've got daughters and I've got a little boy, and her husband put his arm round my shoulders and he said, "God bless you," he said, "You've just done, uh, you've done it all for us, thank you." Now, if, if all of that, all my writing career just brings one result like that, I'm happy. Period.
- CWChris Williamson
It's a noble cause. I honestly, that closure, bringing some end, you know, to the torture of not knowing, for families like that, it's worth the time, it's definitely worth all of the time and the effort and the dan- well, the danger that you put yourself in still blows me away, absolutely blows me away.
- 1:15:00 – 1:16:09
There are two, there…
- CWChris Williamson
be linked-
- CBChristopher Berry-Dee
There are two, there are two by ... Hang on. There were two by the actor, um, these ones, um, Colin Mace.
- CWChris Williamson
Okay.
- CBChristopher Berry-Dee
He- he's done these talking books, and I tell you what, he's got me to a T.
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- CBChristopher Berry-Dee
He's got me there. Brilliant, brilliant man.
- CWChris Williamson
I love it. I love it. Look, Christopher, thank you so much for your time. I really appreciate it. First podcast, you've done fantastically well. I absolutely love the book. Everyone that's listening, you need to go and check it out. It's fascinating. Um, I- I really like the, uh, the idea of you serving a higher cause as well with this, Christopher, I think putting your talents to use and-
- CBChristopher Berry-Dee
Oh, it's an absolute touch, Chris. I- I've loved every second of this. And all I want to say to you is, sweet dreams and no nightmares please.
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs) I'm gonna try. Thank you so much for your time, man. I'll catch you later on.
- CBChristopher Berry-Dee
God bless. Bye.
- CWChris Williamson
Outro: Love ends. Yeah. Oh, yeah, love ends.
Episode duration: 1:16:10
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