DEBATE: Why Do Gen Z Women Hate Men So Much?

1. 0:00 – 8:50

   Why Are Modern Women So Angry?

   1. CWChris Williamson0:00

      Did you read this New Statesman article?

   2. TRDr. Tania Reynolds0:02

      I did.

   3. CWChris Williamson0:03

      Okay. What did you think of that?

   4. TRDr. Tania Reynolds0:05

      I thought it was fascinating. I thought it was concerning, but also a little bit predictable that women are-- Well, there was a lot in there. There was, you know, women are, have a bleak outlook on life, and that they are also spending a lot of time online, which is making everything worse, and that they dislike men, um [chuckles] so strongly, more than men dislike women. Um, I, I think that this is to be predicted by an evolutionary framework. Throughout human history, women were very vulnerable because they are targets of sexual abuse. They, because they're reproductively valuable, they're smaller on average, and they needed assistance getting the calories for themselves and for their children. And the data suggest women's foraging isn't enough to sustain even themselves. So, women who signaled their vulnerability through, um, looking kind of pitiable would've been favored. But also any display beyond that, so communicating sadness, communicating need, would've been favored. So I think this kind of tendency towards a bleak outlook on life makes sense. And in fact, women perceive themselves around the globe to be less happy, less healthy than men, both mentally and physically. And so this is a common pattern, and there also seems to be like, um, a social contagion effect to it. So if you look at women's interactions, um, when they are sad, their partners, whoever they're interacting with, becomes more sad. Their depression spreads through networks in a way that men's doesn't. So there's also like a social contagion effect. So I, I think a lot of this makes sense. And then if you look at, like, the men-hating, it also makes sense that if women needed to signal their loyalty to one another, so if they were often in these patrilocal environments where they weren't around their family or kin, then one way to communicate to other women, "You can trust me," is by being loyal, a really good friend, but also probably being a girl's girl.

   5. CWChris Williamson2:18

      Mm-hmm.

   6. TRDr. Tania Reynolds2:19

      Um, and one way to signal you're a girl's girl is by hating men. Hannah Bradshaw has some cool research showing that women who are guys' girls tend to be not trusted by other women. So if you have more guy friends-

   7. CWChris Williamson2:33

      Hmm

   8. TRDr. Tania Reynolds2:33

      ... they, they don't trust you. They think you're more provocative. Um, and so I think some of this is also related to that. I think there's a lot going on.

   9. CWChris Williamson2:42

      Is that in-group loyalty thing around the guys' girl stuff?

   10. TRDr. Tania Reynolds2:46

       I think so. So she didn't test it in that framework. Um, she tested it as, like, just what do you think of a girl who only has guy friends or a girl who has girls friends? Um, and women like the girl with girl friends more and trust her more. Um, but in some of our data where we looked at kind of this asymmetry and concern for men versus women, women showed the bias to a stronger degree than men did. So I think if you put those two together-

   11. CWChris Williamson3:13

       Right

   12. TRDr. Tania Reynolds3:13

       ... I think women might be, like, advocating for women to signal to one another, "I'm on your team."

   13. CWChris Williamson3:19

       Yeah.

   14. WCWilliam Costello3:19

       Yeah, I think that's exactly right, Tania. And to add a few more evolutionary perspectives to that, I was listening to the podcast from the journalists who did the research, and I was just banging my head against the wall thinking, "There's so much evolutionary psychology at play here, but you're, you can't see it." Um, there's also an error management perspective. So everything in evolution is a trade-off and between costs and benefits. And, uh, for most of our evolutionary history, women were making the trade-off that they were benefiting by selecting men who would be able to provision them with resources and be able to protect them. Uh, those are no longer as salient as benefits to modern women who are earning their own money, achieving their own status, and living in a pretty safe world, even if they, they don't always feel, uh, it's all that safe. So those are no longer really key benefits that men can provide. So they're looking for men to provide other benefits that they're just not stepping up to the plate to do. So if you think about it from an error management perspective, the costs of selecting a bad mate still are exactly the same as they were throughout ancestral history for women.

   15. CWChris Williamson4:25

       Hmm.

   16. WCWilliam Costello4:25

       But the benefits just-- So the, basically, the juice is not worth the squeeze for modern women. So, like, I read the article, and our lab focuses on sexual conflict, and one of the solutions to sexual conflict that we always kind of promote is, uh, to try and encourage cross-sex mind reading. For the last number of years, I've tried to get people to see it from the men's side that, oh, well, imagine how it would feel to suddenly be asked to provide value in ways that you don't really know how, that your status, you're, you're being outpaced in status, and you can no longer add value in those domains. Um, but now I'm trying to put the, the cross-sex mind reading hat on and imagine it from the woman's side. And f-from a trade-off perspective in terms of mating, they're living up to their side of the bargain. Uh, men value physical attractiveness far more than women, and that was one of the key benefits that women provide as a mate. Wom- modern women look better than ever, right?

   17. CWChris Williamson5:23

       Mm-hmm. Mm.

   18. WCWilliam Costello5:23

       And they're bringing more to the table. They're actually contributing resources and status as well. And it's not like men hated those things and only liked physical attractiveness. They just didn't-

   19. CWChris Williamson5:33

       It's a bonus.

   20. WCWilliam Costello5:34

       It just wasn't as key a benefit as it is to women. So men are getting more and more from women-

   21. CWChris Williamson5:40

       Hmm

   22. WCWilliam Costello5:40

       ... uh, whereas women are getting less and less, and they're looking for different things. And that was the key thing that came through, is that the traditional benefits that men were providing were no longer ones that modern women were looking for. They were looking for things like political, uh, shared political ideals, um, uh, emotional intelligence, uh, things like that, even humor and stuff. And I think that modern men are just a little bit lost. But there is, uh-There is a way back for them to provide value in different ways. Um, but it's just the case that modern women are happier to choose singlehood than risk choosing a costly mate. And if you look at modern relationships, there's this pathway towards a, a long-term committed relationship that has to go through this ambiguity, that goes through this kind of uncertainty of dealing with fuckboys, going on these dates, getting spurned by men, uh, 'cause because the modern mating market allows for deceptive men to pursue a deceptive strategy-

   23. CWChris Williamson6:41

       Mm

   24. WCWilliam Costello6:41

       ... in, at unprecedented rates. It's incredible. Like, you have unprecedented levels of, uh, anonymity, access to millions of potential mates. So for the first time in history, you can actually pursue a purely short-term deceptive mating strategy, uh, without, uh, weathering many of the, the classic costs that you would have. Her, her kin and her friends are no longer really going to take revenge on you because you live in a city millions of miles away from them. They don't know who you are.

   25. CWChris Williamson7:14

       Mm-hmm.

   26. WCWilliam Costello7:14

       And you just move city and, you know, a lot of men are pursuing this strategy, so women are thinking, "If that's the pathway towards a committed relationship, I'd rather not," because they're get- they're not getting the benefits.

   27. CWChris Williamson7:28

       Ah, so the pathway to get to a relationship is laid with all of these different tripwires that you can kick.

   28. WCWilliam Costello7:34

       Yeah.

   29. CWChris Williamson7:34

       And women are worried about kicking one or many of them, or maybe have in the past and have gone, "Eh, actually, I, uh, I can support myself financially, socioeconomically without this." Uh, but I guess this, the rubber's gonna meet the road eventually because unless you're gonna do IVF sperm donor, you need to have a partner eventually if you ever want to have a family.

   30. WCWilliam Costello7:54

       Yeah, but it's just the case that, uh, women's status-seeking goals have become very important to them. Uh, they've been crushing it in socioeconomic arena, and it's a fact that get- getting with a long-term male partner is a massive hindrance to a woman's career. Uh-
2. 8:50 – 15:37

   Do Most Women Lean to the Left?

   1. CWChris Williamson8:50

      1 in 4 young women say that their partner having a different political view to them would be a red flag in a relationship. However, on political, particular political issues, women's stance is more hardline. 6 in 10 say they would find it difficult to date someone who disagreed with them on the Palestine-Israel conflict or did not share their views on Donald Trump. 74% say they'd find it difficult to be in a relationship with someone who did not share their views about social justice. Young women are also more likely than young men to say they would not have a relationship with someone who disagreed with them over immigration.

   2. FIFreya India9:20

      I mean, that's so interesting to me because I feel like my generation's view of morality is basically these, um, you know, faraway conflicts in the Middle East. It's things that aren't happening to our lives directly. But we seem to have this thing where we will treat how men behave as their sort of personal preference. It's, it's their subjective judgment on things. So it's like a morally relative culture. And so the only way we can judge a man by his morality is, is he posting about Palestine? How does he feel about immigration?

   3. CWChris Williamson9:55

      Mm.

   4. FIFreya India9:56

      Because you can't say this is right and wrong because we're not as religious anymore. We can't really say that there is morally good and morally bad, and so we have to use these really easy s- kind of signifiers of morality.

   5. CWChris Williamson10:08

      Mm. It's the thumb finger waving on social media.

   6. FIFreya India10:11

      Yeah.

   7. CWChris Williamson10:12

      Right? Of what can be easily, uh, identified, what can be easily advertised.

   8. FIFreya India10:16

      Yeah.

   9. WCWilliam Costello10:16

      I, I thought it was funny when I was listening to the podcast, uh, that these women, uh, their activism is very important to them, and they were very frustrated at what to me sounded like classically male typical status striving even in these circles. So there are some men who are going to identify this as an opportunity to-

   10. CWChris Williamson10:35

       Woke fishing

   11. WCWilliam Costello10:35

       ... Y- woke fishing [laughs] is a nice term for it. Um, but they, the women were complaining that the patterns of behavior they were engaging in, they were very interested in giving the speeches, running for positions of leadership, and I was like, uh, it, it's all just a different type of status game, uh, and the same frustrations with men will exist in these domains as anywhere else.

   12. CWChris Williamson10:57

       Why do you think it is, there's this sort of lean to the left when it comes to women? What's in a female disposition, predisposition that seems to have this sort of progressive list at the moment being very compelling?

   13. TRDr. Tania Reynolds11:13

       I think it might have to do with if, uh, if women evolved to evoke care, then, you know, and signal their vulnerability, then it would make sense from a niche construction perspective that you should design a world that gives aid to the vulnerable. You know? So, like, it's in your interest to design a social world that transfers resources to the vulnerable-

   14. CWChris Williamson11:35

       Because you're going to appear more vulnerable

   15. TRDr. Tania Reynolds11:35

       ... if you see yourself as vulnerable.

   16. CWChris Williamson11:38

       Oh, interesting.

   17. TRDr. Tania Reynolds11:38

       Yeah. And so it can be... But I also think it, it functions twofold. It's both beneficial for them, but it's also a signal of their kindness, and other women really dislike unkind women, um, or any signs of cruelty, competitiveness. And so what I kind of wonder is, like, is this all a, a competition to display to other women, "I am so pro-social and kind," and then maybe your romantic partner is a reflection of you, so it's a stronger signal that I'm committed to these causes if my romantic partner also is-

   18. CWChris Williamson12:08

       Mm. Mm

   19. TRDr. Tania Reynolds12:08

       ... or if I don't have one altogether because they're not good enough. You know? So, like-

   20. WCWilliam Costello12:13

       I'm willing to pay the honor signal of I'm foregoing a romantic partner because there are none who meet my standards on this measure.

   21. CWChris Williamson12:20

       Mm.

   22. TRDr. Tania Reynolds12:20

       Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

   23. WCWilliam Costello12:20

       And with kindness, usually there's target specificity, that women usually prefer a partner who's really kind to them, and they're less so keen on a partner who's kind to others. But ex- uh, except if there's massive status associated with someone who's kind to others, and that is in this arena. In this political arena, signaling your kindness to others is the high status.

   24. CWChris Williamson12:41

       Kind of encouraging a bit of domestication.As well of everyone around you. It's interesting that a lot of men's behavior, uh, and men's portrayal of emotions are actually quite antisocial. You think about, uh, frustration, agitation-

   25. TRDr. Tania Reynolds12:55

       Mm-hmm

   26. CWChris Williamson12:55

       ... uh, anger, rage, aggression.

   27. WCWilliam Costello12:58

       Yeah.

   28. CWChris Williamson12:58

       Um, they're very antisocial. There's ... Joe Hudson's daughter was crying in the bath when she was nine, and it kept happening over and over, and he came in and he said, "You know, when you're crying, you sound, like, pretty agitated. Are you sad or are you pissed off?"

   29. WCWilliam Costello13:12

       Mm.

   30. CWChris Williamson13:12

       She said, "I'm pissed off." He's like, "Well, if you're pissed off, why are you crying?"
3. 15:37 – 21:10

   The Rise of Male Looksmaxxing

   1. TRDr. Tania Reynolds15:37

      [laughs]

   2. CWChris Williamson15:37

      What do you think, you know, you were saying the previous ways that men were able to add value and advertise their mate value to women has sort of fallen away. What do you make of the looksmaxxing movement?

   3. TRDr. Tania Reynolds15:48

      I kind of wonder if it's a reflection of ... So there's this general trend towards, um, the gender egalitarian paradox, where as the world treats men and women more equally, the sexes diverge more.

   4. CWChris Williamson16:01

      Mm-hmm.

   5. TRDr. Tania Reynolds16:01

      So they do it on personality, they do it on-

   6. WCWilliam Costello16:04

      Height.

   7. TRDr. Tania Reynolds16:04

      Yes.

   8. CWChris Williamson16:05

      Yeah.

   9. TRDr. Tania Reynolds16:05

      Men actually get taller in more, um, equal-

   10. CWChris Williamson16:07

       [laughs]

   11. TRDr. Tania Reynolds16:08

       ... environments.

   12. CWChris Williamson16:08

       Looksmaxxing way.

   13. WCWilliam Costello16:09

       Like, it's hard to say that's socially constructed, although people do say that. They say, "Oh, parents just feed the boys more," and that's the only reason why-

   14. CWChris Williamson16:16

       In a more egalitarian-

   15. WCWilliam Costello16:17

       Yeah. The, it, it's men.

   16. CWChris Williamson16:19

       Okay.

   17. WCWilliam Costello16:19

       But anyway.

   18. CWChris Williamson16:20

       Yep.

   19. TRDr. Tania Reynolds16:20

       But anyway, so, like, you see this pattern in both men and women. Men get more, like, risk-taking. Women get more anxious and depressed. So what I think is going on is in this, like, I think maybe gender egalitarianism is just like a proxy for social competitiveness. So as the world gets more competitive, our sex specific adaptations get activated. And so if it's the case that, you know, women are more prone to, like, anxiety or depression, that's gonna become amplified. If men are more prone to risk-taking or maybe conspiracy theory, um, that might get activated. And then-

   20. CWChris Williamson16:55

       Where does looksmaxxing come in?

   21. TRDr. Tania Reynolds16:56

       Looksmax... I mean, men and women have incentives to both enhance their appearance to the extent that they could.

   22. CWChris Williamson17:01

       Mm-hmm.

   23. TRDr. Tania Reynolds17:01

       It's just through different techniques. So men might have a drive for muscularity, so you know, it, that would allow them to be competitive in a really competitive world.

   24. WCWilliam Costello17:10

       And especially if the mating market is becoming, at first, more short-term mating oriented.

   25. TRDr. Tania Reynolds17:15

       Mm-hmm.

   26. WCWilliam Costello17:15

       If there's this first pass of kind of somewhat short-term mating oriented relationship that becomes, uh, a long-term one, then physical attractiveness, which we know is massively over-indexed in online dating-

   27. TRDr. Tania Reynolds17:27

       True

   28. WCWilliam Costello17:27

       ... and kind of the media saturated world. We even have data, I know you spoke Macken about this, about just, uh, people are prioritizing physical attractiveness. Both men and women are prioritizing it more and more.

   29. CWChris Williamson17:39

       Why do you think that is?

   30. WCWilliam Costello17:40

       Uh, because probably they're not able to add value in those other ways. The, the short-term mating kind of attributes become more enhanced, and especially if you have a, the kind of the visually saturated world-
4. 21:10 – 32:38

   Why Men and Women Have Different Preferences

   1. CWChris Williamson21:10

      at checkout. What was that poll that you did about Clavicular?

   2. WCWilliam Costello21:16

      Oh yeah, I asked whether, uh... And I chose, I've really enjoyed, uh, Twitter, X bringing in the pictures with the polls now. It's really a, a nice little addition to the polls-

   3. CWChris Williamson21:26

      Mm-hmm

   4. WCWilliam Costello21:26

      ... which I'm an aficionado of.

   5. CWChris Williamson21:28

      Well, you need to fucking get off Bluesky, dude.

   6. WCWilliam Costello21:29

      Yeah, I'll get off Bluesky.

   7. CWChris Williamson21:30

      My main piece of advice to you-

   8. WCWilliam Costello21:32

      Yeah

   9. CWChris Williamson21:32

      ... is to leave the fuck away.

   10. FIFreya India21:34

       Or, or do the polls on both-

   11. WCWilliam Costello21:35

       Yeah

   12. FIFreya India21:35

       ... and compare the results.

   13. CWChris Williamson21:36

       And just see-

   14. WCWilliam Costello21:37

       I have no following on Bluesky. It's just a, a-

   15. CWChris Williamson21:39

       You go on there, you go on there-

   16. WCWilliam Costello21:40

       The dozens of people that are there, they have no interest in it.

   17. CWChris Williamson21:42

       You go on there as a form of self-harm.

   18. WCWilliam Costello21:44

       Yeah. I, I think you're right. Yeah. I, I do try and reach, like, both sides of the academic kind of world. Uh-

   19. CWChris Williamson21:50

       But they hate you.

   20. WCWilliam Costello21:51

       I know, but [laughs]

   21. CWChris Williamson21:52

       They actively hate you. All that happens in our group chat is he posts. Like, he, he basically comes in for kind of like emotional support. We're his emotional support group chat.

   22. FIFreya India22:02

       That's lovely.

   23. WCWilliam Costello22:03

       Show up and show their emotions.

   24. FIFreya India22:04

       Yeah.

   25. CWChris Williamson22:04

       That's true. That's not, you're not showing your emotions.

   26. WCWilliam Costello22:06

       [laughs]

   27. CWChris Williamson22:06

       You're showing how you're being repeatedly beaten-

   28. WCWilliam Costello22:08

       Frustration at the function

   29. CWChris Williamson22:09

       ... by the same social media platform. It's insanity.

   30. FIFreya India22:11

       Why, why do you get attacked? 'Cause just 'cause you're into e- evolutionary psychology?
5. 32:38 – 35:33

   ADoes Insecurity Make Us More Extroverted?

   1. TRDr. Tania Reynolds32:38

      [laughs]

   2. CWChris Williamson32:38

      There's a, a relationship between infidelity and extraversion, right?

   3. WCWilliam Costello32:42

      Yeah.

   4. TRDr. Tania Reynolds32:42

      Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And I kind of wonder if that might play a role into like why women show some of these traits, is like there was an incentive from men to not be super extroverted, high confidence. Because if that's a cue of sexual promiscuity-

   5. CWChris Williamson32:58

      You want to signal dad, not Chad.

   6. WCWilliam Costello32:58

      Yeah.

   7. TRDr. Tania Reynolds32:59

      Well, no, for women. If women are too extroverted-

   8. CWChris Williamson33:01

      Mm

   9. TRDr. Tania Reynolds33:01

      ... other men might infer she will cheat, and if men have the concern over paternity certainty and cuckoldry, then they might have preferred women who were slightly more insecure, more humble.

   10. CWChris Williamson33:13

       Demure.

   11. WCWilliam Costello33:13

       Yeah.

   12. TRDr. Tania Reynolds33:13

       Right. And so women might have encountered mate preferences that selected them to be slightly more insecure.

   13. WCWilliam Costello33:21

       Yeah.

   14. TRDr. Tania Reynolds33:21

       It's, it's less threatening-

   15. CWChris Williamson33:22

       Mm

   16. TRDr. Tania Reynolds33:22

       ... from a mating perspective.

   17. WCWilliam Costello33:23

       Yeah.

   18. CWChris Williamson33:23

       Mm. Mm.

   19. FIFreya India33:24

       It is interesting, though, because I feel like at the moment my generation of young women are on average very insecure about how they look and they're very anxious, but they also seem to be louder than ever in terms of, "I'm empowered, I'm strong, I'm independent." And so you have women who are really trying to portray that they never get jealous and they never get insecure, but then they seem to have this deep risk aversion and anxiety, and I don't know where that comes from.

   20. CWChris Williamson33:49

       Mm.

   21. TRDr. Tania Reynolds33:49

       There are some studies where women who are really agentic and assertive, if they're negotiating, they experience backlash where people don't like them, but not if they're nego- uh, negotiating on behalf of someone else. So I kind of wonder if it's like the only way women are allowed to be like tough and agentic is to be an advocate for some moral cause for someone more vulnerable. It's like the only way you're allowed to be. 'Cause it seems like that's the domain where you see women all of a sudden be very hostile when you don't get that hostility in any other context.

   22. FIFreya India34:19

       Yeah.

   23. TRDr. Tania Reynolds34:19

       And so maybe that's the one domain where people allow it.

   24. CWChris Williamson34:22

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6. 35:33 – 38:36

   How Women Adapted So Well to the Modern Workplace

   1. CWChris Williamson35:33

      How do you think about the hidden nature of female intrasexual competition with the need for assertiveness, independence, freedom, modern world stuff? 'Cause I would think... I'm, I'm surprised by how well women have acclimatized to the sort of modern career, fast-paced capitalist society thing. Think they're really, not only are they outperforming, I think they're outperforming what my expectations would have been of that. I don't know whether that makes sense. But given what you know about women's disposition, predisposition, selection pressures, is it surprising that they're doing as well as they are?

   2. TRDr. Tania Reynolds36:09

      I don't know. I think in a lot of ways, like the modern world is more conducive to women's traits than men's.

   3. CWChris Williamson36:13

      Yeah. Yeah.

   4. TRDr. Tania Reynolds36:13

      Like, we're not allowed to be aggressive. The only way that you can be aggressive is very subtly, which women are experts at. [laughs]

   5. WCWilliam Costello36:19

      Rewarded in, in the workplace.

   6. TRDr. Tania Reynolds36:21

      Yeah. And, and so, and now in a workforce, we probably are rewarded for being the egalitarian boss or the one who checks in with their employees. So like over time as we move to like a prestige based competition system, that's more conducive to a lot of women's traits than a dominance based competition system. But I see your point that at the same time you also have to be like agentic and assertive in the workforce, so it'd be really interesting to see how women navigate that in practice. But there are some data showing that more agentic women are particularly disliked by their female colleagues.

   7. CWChris Williamson36:53

      Mm-hmm.

   8. TRDr. Tania Reynolds36:53

      And so I think that might lead to, um, women's using these egalitarian strategies as a way of like simultaneously being competitive and assertive while looking kind along the way.

   9. CWChris Williamson37:04

      Yeah.

   10. WCWilliam Costello37:04

       And I think you could say for good reason the modern world or workplace is kind of designed to neuter men's work, most aggressive tendencies.

   11. CWChris Williamson37:12

       Mm-hmm.

   12. WCWilliam Costello37:13

       You can't exactly get into a physical fight to settle something anymore in the workplace. It's just not ac- acceptable. Uh, but you can spread gossip, and that is kind of rewarded. So in that style of aggression, women will far succeed.

   13. CWChris Williamson37:26

       Have you ever done any, uh, bless his heart stuff?

   14. WCWilliam Costello37:30

       Men do gossip too, right? It's not, like, just a female thing.

   15. TRDr. Tania Reynolds37:33

       Yeah, we try. So we manipulated whether a, a man said it about another man or a woman said it about another woman.

   16. CWChris Williamson37:38

       Can you do... Are you gonna have to just give a 30,000-foot view of the bless her heart effect?

   17. TRDr. Tania Reynolds37:42

       Okay. Basically, if women phrase their negative gossip with concern, people didn't register it as gossip. They were more likely to believe, um, that she was a good person. And so it seems like you get these benefits by believing you're concerned about your gossip target, or maybe doing it consciously. Um, a- and then there was a different study where we did look at men and women, where we looked at women's use of, like, complaining, venting about their friends, like complaining about how their friends treated them. Like, "Oh, you know, Suzy always says these weird comments to me, and they hurt my feelings."

   18. CWChris Williamson38:14

       Hmm.

   19. TRDr. Tania Reynolds38:15

       If men did that, other people didn't care as much. So it just doesn't work.

   20. CWChris Williamson38:20

       [laughs]

   21. WCWilliam Costello38:21

       Yeah.

   22. TRDr. Tania Reynolds38:21

       In terms-

   23. WCWilliam Costello38:21

       Seemed as whiny. Like, you know.

   24. TRDr. Tania Reynolds38:22

       Yeah. Yeah.

   25. CWChris Williamson38:23

       Yeah, it is. It is.

   26. WCWilliam Costello38:24

       Don't want-

   27. CWChris Williamson38:24

       It's, it's non-agentic in a way, right?

   28. TRDr. Tania Reynolds38:26

       Yeah.

   29. WCWilliam Costello38:26

       Mm-hmm.

   30. TRDr. Tania Reynolds38:26

       They don't have the same sympathy. In terms of bless his heart, maybe it would work for men because you're just seeming compassionate.
7. 38:36 – 53:26

   Are Male Mental Health Incentives Actually Pushing Against Opening Up?

   1. TRDr. Tania Reynolds38:36

      to test.

   2. CWChris Williamson38:36

      There's a, a Substack called Men Are Good.

   3. WCWilliam Costello38:38

      Hmm.

   4. CWChris Williamson38:38

      Have you come across this? It's like, it's, it's r-

   5. WCWilliam Costello38:42

      Sounds controversial.

   6. CWChris Williamson38:43

      It's really well, it's really well written.

   7. WCWilliam Costello38:44

      [laughs]

   8. CWChris Williamson38:44

      I mean, look, it's, it, it gets a bit men's rights-y.

   9. WCWilliam Costello38:46

      Hmm.

   10. CWChris Williamson38:47

       Um, but some of the insights are fucking money.

   11. WCWilliam Costello38:49

       Hmm.

   12. CWChris Williamson38:49

       Like really, really good. Tom Gol- Golden, I think he's called.

   13. WCWilliam Costello38:52

       Hmm.

   14. CWChris Williamson38:52

       Good, really good-

   15. WCWilliam Costello38:53

       That name rings a bell

   16. CWChris Williamson38:54

       ... really good Substack.

   17. WCWilliam Costello38:55

       Yeah.

   18. CWChris Williamson38:55

       Anyway, he had this one bit where he talked about how men are told that they should open up more about their emotions, but every single incentive pretty much pushes against it.

   19. WCWilliam Costello39:06

       Yeah.

   20. CWChris Williamson39:06

       Including that of other men, that men don't like to see men who are opening up about their emotions.

   21. WCWilliam Costello39:12

       Mm-mm.

   22. CWChris Williamson39:12

       There's a kind of ick and an aversion. Like, you, you look like an unreliable ally. You're not maybe thinking this consciously, but two things are true that men are trying to do at the moment. It's like men's mental health is a really big issue. But okay, if you see a guy that's crying on social media, will you give him sympathy or will you laugh at him?

   23. WCWilliam Costello39:30

       Mm.

   24. CWChris Williamson39:31

       Almost every guy is gonna go, "Simp, cuck, soy boy, you're an idiot."

   25. WCWilliam Costello39:34

       Mm-hmm.

   26. CWChris Williamson39:34

       "This is lame. You need to man up." It's like, okay, so which is it? And y- we spent two hours talking about some of the paradoxes of sort of modern female culture and capitalism versus independence and freedom versus motherhood and just a mom and all this stuff. But I think it's important to call out the ones where guys, you, you do not get to say-

   27. WCWilliam Costello39:54

       Hmm

   28. CWChris Williamson39:54

       ... men need to open up more. Men need... We need to have more services for mental health. Let's say that men don't believe that, 'cause a lot of men might say men don't need to open up more.

   29. WCWilliam Costello40:02

       Mm.

   30. CWChris Williamson40:02

       They need to man up more. And you go, okay, do you think that suicide prevention is something that's important?
8. 53:26 – 59:33

   The Hidden Rise of Benevolent Sexism

   1. CWChris Williamson53:26

      On the topic of sexism, Freya-

   2. FIFreya India53:28

      Mm-hmm

   3. CWChris Williamson53:28

      ... I'd like to put you on the spot a bit at the moment.

   4. FIFreya India53:31

      Are you calling me a sexist? [laughs]

   5. CWChris Williamson53:31

      I would include you. Well, no. [laughs]

   6. FIFreya India53:33

      [laughs]

   7. CWChris Williamson53:34

      But well, we'll see.

   8. FIFreya India53:35

      Hmm.

   9. CWChris Williamson53:35

      Uh, I want to ask you a few questions. Right?

   10. FIFreya India53:37

       Mm-hmm.

   11. CWChris Williamson53:37

       You've been described as the voice of Gen Z women, uh, so this will be very interesting, uh, to get your opinion on these questions, so I'm gonna read them out to you. So Tania, I already know what you think-

   12. FIFreya India53:47

       [laughs]

   13. CWChris Williamson53:47

       ... because we're, we're working on this together. So is it closer to sexist towards men or women to believe the following things? One, women have a superior moral sensibility.

   14. FIFreya India53:59

       Uh, sexist toward men, I would say.

   15. CWChris Williamson54:01

       Okay. Women have a quality of purity few men possess.

   16. FIFreya India54:07

       Sexist toward men.

   17. CWChris Williamson54:08

       Women have a more refined sense of culture and taste.

   18. FIFreya India54:12

       Sexist toward men.

   19. CWChris Williamson54:13

       Okay. Full house. Sexist towards men.

   20. FIFreya India54:14

       [laughs]

   21. SPSpeaker54:14

       [laughs]

   22. CWChris Williamson54:15

       Ne- ne- next set of questions. We're almost done.

   23. FIFreya India54:17

       Okay.

   24. CWChris Williamson54:18

       Do you think it would be a good or bad thing if men mostly agreed with the sentiment of the following statements? A good woman should be set on a pedestal.

   25. FIFreya India54:28

       Uh, good.

   26. CWChris Williamson54:30

       Okay. Women should be cherished and protected by men.

   27. FIFreya India54:34

       Good.

   28. CWChris Williamson54:35

       Men should sacrifice to provide for women.

   29. FIFreya India54:37

       Good.

   30. CWChris Williamson54:38

       In a disaster, women need to be rescued first.
9. 59:33 – 1:07:44

   Do Women Find Aggression Attractive?

   1. WCWilliam Costello59:33

      sexism.

   2. CWChris Williamson59:33

      Do you remember that video of the two travelers in Thailand, and a guy pulls out a knife? It's CCTV footage.

   3. WCWilliam Costello59:41

      Oh, I think I have seen it. Yeah.

   4. CWChris Williamson59:42

      This... Yeah, it went super, super viral.

   5. WCWilliam Costello59:44

      Mm.

   6. CWChris Williamson59:44

      And all of the replies and all of the, uh, quote tweets of it were, "Girl, he's trash." So this guy pulls out a knife and he's trying to steal the woman's bag, and she fights him off, and the guy hides behind a fucking pillar. The dude hides behind a pillar.

   7. WCWilliam Costello59:55

      Yeah.

   8. FIFreya India59:55

      Oh.

   9. CWChris Williamson59:55

      So there's two things that are sort of, yeah, icky, right?

   10. FIFreya India59:58

       Yeah.

   11. CWChris Williamson59:58

       I mean, we, we all have this sense that you should protect. Dude, what was that fucking thing that I said? I put this in the group chat six months ago and I fucking called it, and I was right about the fact that women would be less, there would be more... Oh, here it is.

   12. WCWilliam Costello1:00:13

       Mm-hmm.

   13. CWChris Williamson1:00:13

       Look at this.

   14. WCWilliam Costello1:00:14

       Oh, no.

   15. CWChris Williamson1:00:16

       So that guy's got a knife.

   16. WCWilliam Costello1:00:18

       Oh, no.

   17. FIFreya India1:00:19

       Oh.

   18. WCWilliam Costello1:00:19

       Oh.

   19. FIFreya India1:00:19

       Oh my God.

   20. CWChris Williamson1:00:19

       Homeboy hides, homeboy hides behind the pillar while she is fighting him, and there's another dude that just comes over and lo- maybe he's with the guy.

   21. WCWilliam Costello1:00:28

       Maybe.

   22. FIFreya India1:00:28

       [laughs]

   23. CWChris Williamson1:00:28

       And then this guy with the fucking-

   24. WCWilliam Costello1:00:29

       The other benevolently sexist man.

   25. FIFreya India1:00:31

       Yeah.

   26. WCWilliam Costello1:00:31

       He comes over-

   27. CWChris Williamson1:00:32

       Yeah, look

   28. WCWilliam Costello1:00:33

       ... and thinks the woman cannot defend herself. And what a sexist son of a bitch.

   29. FIFreya India1:00:36

       [laughs]

   30. CWChris Williamson1:00:36

       I know. What a pig.
10. 1:07:44 – 1:14:10

    What Sex Dolls Reveal About Male Desire

    1. WCWilliam Costello1:07:44

       Mm-hmm.

    2. CWChris Williamson1:07:44

       Tell me about sex dolls, your specialist subject.

    3. WCWilliam Costello1:07:46

       Yeah, I was glad to make the shift from incel researcher now to sex doll researcher, so I've got the full gamoo. And they actually kind of connect in a way.

    4. TRDr. Tania Reynolds1:07:55

       [laughs]

    5. WCWilliam Costello1:07:55

       They're the main consumer base of sex dolls. So I came across this amazing-

    6. CWChris Williamson1:07:59

       That's a unfortunate way to open the sentence.

    7. TRDr. Tania Reynolds1:08:01

       [laughs]

    8. WCWilliam Costello1:08:01

       Let me rephrase that. I happened upon-

    9. TRDr. Tania Reynolds1:08:03

       [laughs]

    10. WCWilliam Costello1:08:03

        ... this amazing data set that was publicly available that had all the body specifications of sex dolls that are on the market, and this study that was published was very descriptive in nature, and it was just describing the, the dimensions rather than saying why they might be that way. So I did a kind of a, my own analysis on it and showed that they reveal, um-All the kind of classically predicted male mate preferences. And it's interesting because these artificial depictions of female, uh, sexual beings are like a undiluted window into men's mate preferences because these dolls, they can take on any form. They're not limited by nature. They're just literally whatever the consumer wants them to be like. And there's this. It, it's not just that the, uh, creators of sex dolls make them that way and the consumers have no choice. There's this co-evolution of the market, uh, with the consumer and the producer.

    11. CWChris Williamson1:08:55

        Mm.

    12. WCWilliam Costello1:08:55

        Uh, a good example is-

    13. CWChris Williamson1:08:56

        They wouldn't buy something they didn't want

    14. WCWilliam Costello1:08:57

        ... exactly right. There's no market for really obese sex doll. Well, there's a smaller market, uh, let's say.

    15. CWChris Williamson1:09:04

        Oh, yeah, yeah. There's a niche for everything.

    16. WCWilliam Costello1:09:05

        Yeah

    17. CWChris Williamson1:09:05

        ... William.

    18. WCWilliam Costello1:09:05

        But, but, but the dolls typified all the classic evolutionary predicted mate preferences, but except they did so in an extremely supernormal stimuli way.

    19. CWChris Williamson1:09:16

        So have you got images of... Can we pull this image up, Chris?

    20. WCWilliam Costello1:09:17

        I, I do have an image. Uh, I did s- I did send through my image. Uh [laughs]

    21. CWChris Williamson1:09:21

        Here's something that you prepared earlier from your armory of sex dolls.

    22. TRDr. Tania Reynolds1:09:25

        It reminds me, there are, there are these beetles that will try to mate with beer bottles.

    23. CWChris Williamson1:09:29

        Glass bottles.

    24. TRDr. Tania Reynolds1:09:30

        Yeah.

    25. CWChris Williamson1:09:30

        Yep, yep.

    26. TRDr. Tania Reynolds1:09:30

        And I always show it to my class, and I'm like, "Anyone who watches porn, that's also you." [laughs]

    27. WCWilliam Costello1:09:35

        Yeah, yeah.

    28. TRDr. Tania Reynolds1:09:35

        Like, it's the same thing.

    29. CWChris Williamson1:09:36

        Hey, I've-

    30. WCWilliam Costello1:09:37

        Women are easily con- convinced.
11. 1:14:10 – 1:19:15

    Who Resents the Opposite Sex More?

    1. CWChris Williamson1:14:10

       One other bit from the New Statesman article I thought was really interesting. Women feel much more negatively towards young men than young men feel about them. 50% of women have a neutral or negative view of men. 72% of men have a positive view of women. For all of the talk about manosphere inspired misogyny, three times more women hold a negative view of men than men hold of women. Only 21% of women have an actively negative view of men, but only 7% of men feel the same. Men are told that they're the problem, but then you look at the data and young women are significantly more negative toward men than men are toward women. Men get dragged in the media, but are still showing up more optimistically about womenthan the other way around

    2. WCWilliam Costello1:14:51

       But women are fulfilling their part of the bargain. Like, if you, if you looked at it from a trade-off perspective, like women are-

    3. CWChris Williamson1:14:57

       Here's my better

    4. WCWilliam Costello1:14:58

       ... I think that women are, um, contributing, bringing more to the table financially and everything. The women, if you asked them, I bet they'd say, "Yeah. Well, we're right. They're wrong. [laughs] They're, they're... Or we're right and they're right."

    5. CWChris Williamson1:15:08

       But why would you-

    6. WCWilliam Costello1:15:09

       Men are right to like w- we're right

    7. CWChris Williamson1:15:09

       ... why, why would you hold an actively negative view of men?

    8. WCWilliam Costello1:15:12

       Well, because they see only the risks. They see the-

    9. CWChris Williamson1:15:15

       But this is not an acti- this is not a view of relationships. This is an actively negative view of men. This seems to be much more judgmental, men are bad in and of themsel-

    10. WCWilliam Costello1:15:24

        Mm

    11. CWChris Williamson1:15:24

        ... men are bad over there or they're bad when they're trying to get with me.

    12. WCWilliam Costello1:15:27

        Yeah. Uh-

    13. FIFreya India1:15:27

        Do, mm, I would think that was something to do with porn.

    14. CWChris Williamson1:15:30

        Mm.

    15. FIFreya India1:15:30

        Because... And I also think that explains, you know, you say that women are attracted to sort of feminine looking anime men.

    16. CWChris Williamson1:15:38

        Mm. Mm.

    17. FIFreya India1:15:39

        I think because maybe they've grown up watching very hyper-masculine, like, porn stars-

    18. CWChris Williamson1:15:44

        Mm

    19. FIFreya India1:15:44

        ... being really rough and violent with women, and then they go for the non-threatening mate.

    20. CWChris Williamson1:15:50

        Mm.

    21. FIFreya India1:15:50

        And then also they develop this view of men based off maybe the most brutal videos.

    22. CWChris Williamson1:15:56

        Mm.

    23. FIFreya India1:15:56

        And seeing it from such a young age-

    24. CWChris Williamson1:15:58

        Mm

    25. FIFreya India1:15:58

        ... that then you develop, you generalize that to all men.

    26. CWChris Williamson1:16:02

        Still don't understand why you'd be actively negative. 21% actively negative.

    27. TRDr. Tania Reynolds1:16:07

        I wonder if it's that signal to other women-

    28. CWChris Williamson1:16:09

        Mm.

    29. FIFreya India1:16:09

        Mm

    30. TRDr. Tania Reynolds1:16:09

        ... that I'm team women.
12. 1:19:15 – 1:21:58

    Do Men Get the Ick Too?

    1. CWChris Williamson1:19:15

       Ta- Tania, what do you reckon about icks? Have you looked at, have you done any research on icks and stuff like that?

    2. TRDr. Tania Reynolds1:19:20

       No, but it, there does, like anecdotally, there seems to be a sex difference where, like, women get the ick and then-

    3. CWChris Williamson1:19:25

       Yeah

    4. TRDr. Tania Reynolds1:19:25

       ... men do not. Um, yeah, I wonder if it's like a absence of a sufficient, like you need at some threshold of masculinity.

    5. CWChris Williamson1:19:34

       Mm.

    6. TRDr. Tania Reynolds1:19:35

       And if you don't cross it, then-

    7. CWChris Williamson1:19:37

       Mm

    8. TRDr. Tania Reynolds1:19:37

       ... or if you indicate anything that violates it.

    9. CWChris Williamson1:19:39

       Mm-hmm.

    10. TRDr. Tania Reynolds1:19:40

        I don't know. Freya, you'd probably know what's the stronger predictor. [laughs]

    11. FIFreya India1:19:42

        Well, I'm not obviously an evolutionary psychologist, but I see it from a cultural perspective that you have so many messages coming at young women to be on guard, constantly on guard-

    12. CWChris Williamson1:19:50

        Yeah

    13. FIFreya India1:19:50

        ... like looking for problems.

    14. TRDr. Tania Reynolds1:19:51

        Mm.

    15. FIFreya India1:19:51

        And so you have a feminist message that, you know, you have to be independent. You can't let a man get in the way of your goals. But then you also have a therapeutic message, which is like, be on guard for any red flags, any signs that someone is not good enough-

    16. CWChris Williamson1:20:03

        Yeah

    17. FIFreya India1:20:03

        ... or you're incompatible. And so I think young women might feel something like an ick-

    18. CWChris Williamson1:20:08

        Mm-hmm

    19. FIFreya India1:20:08

        ... and then they're encouraged, especially by social media, to take that feeling really seriously.

    20. CWChris Williamson1:20:13

        Yeah.

    21. FIFreya India1:20:13

        Which is like, if you feel some negative emotion toward your partner, you're incompatible or there's something wrong. And so I think we're just way more, we're bracing all the time to see-

    22. CWChris Williamson1:20:23

        Yeah

    23. FIFreya India1:20:23

        ... the red flags.

    24. WCWilliam Costello1:20:24

        And it also kind of, uh, announces, like you said, kind of allegiance to the sisterhood alliance, but also elevates their own mate value. It's like, "Oh, there's just a total scarcity of guys who meet my standard."

    25. CWChris Williamson1:20:34

        My standards are so high.

    26. WCWilliam Costello1:20:36

        "I cannot find anyone."

    27. CWChris Williamson1:20:36

        Things are so difficult.

    28. WCWilliam Costello1:20:38

        I always feel-

    29. CWChris Williamson1:20:38

        Yeah. I'm, I have a refined palate.

    30. WCWilliam Costello1:20:39

        Yeah.
13. 1:21:58 – 1:25:15

    Why Privileged Women Feel More Pessimistic

    1. CWChris Williamson1:21:58

       Uh, some of the new polling done at the New Statesman suggests that privileged women are the most pessimistic of all. Women in middle class professions are less likely to say they feel valued by society and less likely to believe that if they work hard, they will succeed in life when compared to their working class counterparts. Young men are now more likely to be unemployed than young women, yet young women are far more financially cynical, 21 points less likely than young men to believe they will ever out earn their parents. White women are more likely to feel the country is racist than their non-white women middle class partners.

    2. WCWilliam Costello1:22:32

       You white women are awful.

    3. CWChris Williamson1:22:33

       Yeah. [laughs]

    4. TRDr. Tania Reynolds1:22:34

       [laughs] I, I wonder how much of that is, like, related to that finding where the only way that women could be agentic was, like, on behalf of someone else.

    5. CWChris Williamson1:22:43

       Mm-hmm.

    6. TRDr. Tania Reynolds1:22:43

       So, like, the more successful that you are or the more that you have going in your favor, the only, like, way that you can be-

    7. CWChris Williamson1:22:51

       Yeah

    8. TRDr. Tania Reynolds1:22:51

       ... agentic is to, like, be so deeply caring. Um, there are some ethnographies on adolescent girls, and the only ones that were allowed to be popular were if they were super, super nice. And so they had to, like, kind of over-deliver on, like, kindness in order to be allowed to be popular. And so it feels a little bit like that same pattern that, like, perhaps women do this so the, the envy or resentment of other women won't bring them down.

    9. CWChris Williamson1:23:19

       Mm.

    10. TRDr. Tania Reynolds1:23:19

        Um, Joyce Benenson has this r- um, cool-

    11. CWChris Williamson1:23:21

        Hero, friend of the show.

    12. TRDr. Tania Reynolds1:23:22

        Oh, she's the best. I'm obsessed with her. Um, she has this paper on leveling showing that, like, women are more likely to use a leveling strategy where they say, like, "Oh, we should all be equal," when someone is surpassing them.

    13. CWChris Williamson1:23:34

        Yeah.

    14. TRDr. Tania Reynolds1:23:34

        And so I wonder if, like, once you have all of these things operating in your favor, you kind of have to be, like, a martyr in order-

    15. CWChris Williamson1:23:42

        Mm

    16. TRDr. Tania Reynolds1:23:42

        ... to, like, continue on. Otherwise, people might not like you.

    17. CWChris Williamson1:23:45

        Where do you get your victimhood points from?

    18. WCWilliam Costello1:23:47

        Yeah.

    19. TRDr. Tania Reynolds1:23:47

        Yeah.

    20. CWChris Williamson1:23:47

        Uh, I, I won't say who said it in our group chat, but someone replied to Rob Henderson bringing this up and said, "Middle class hay fever, Rob. When there's no high load of parasites, people's immune system gets bored and starts looking for things to react to, and you get allergies to dust and pollen. When the middle class has no threats, their threat system gets bored and starts looking for trivial things to blow out of proportion. White privilege, gender identity, ultra-processed foods, it's all pollen. You don't have oat milk? You're traumatizing me. No explicit segregation and blatant racism? Sensitivity to microaggressions increases."

    21. FIFreya India1:24:19

        That's what I was gonna say, is I think it's more time to introspect and ruminate.

    22. CWChris Williamson1:24:23

        Mm.

    23. FIFreya India1:24:23

        Because you have girls and young women not just picking up on icks in their partner and, like, scrutinizing them and looking for flaws, but then doing that to themselves. So constantly pathologizing, diagnosing themselves, wondering what's wrong with them.

    24. CWChris Williamson1:24:36

        Mm.

    25. FIFreya India1:24:37

        Over-analyzing their personality traits. And so I do think it's just more time and less bigger problems, like, say, having children, where you put your neuroticism, you funnel it into something-

    26. CWChris Williamson1:24:48

        Mm-hmm

    27. FIFreya India1:24:48

        ... productive. And instead it then turns inwards or also against your partner.

    28. WCWilliam Costello1:24:52

        Yeah. But there is status afforded to women doing that. In that ecosystem, in that social system of higher education where women are dominating now-

    29. CWChris Williamson1:25:02

        Mm

    30. WCWilliam Costello1:25:02

        ... they're rewarded for espousing views like that. So, you know, they're showing that they know the ideology of the leading status people-
14. 1:25:15 – 1:28:20

    Can Men Be Victims Too?

    1. WCWilliam Costello1:25:15

       Yeah.

    2. CWChris Williamson1:25:15

       What's the data around men and women being demonised and seen as victims?

    3. TRDr. Tania Reynolds1:25:22

       So we have some studies showing that, like, w- we have this, like, kind of cognitive heuristic of victim and perpetrator, and when men and women are, like, involved in any i- instance of harm, we're more likely to see women in the victim role and men in the perpetrator role.

    4. CWChris Williamson1:25:38

       Mm.

    5. TRDr. Tania Reynolds1:25:38

       Be more likely to blame men, um, and more likely to have sympathy for women. Um, and so it would suggest, like, perhaps some of the reason we don't see a lot of sympathy for men is it's, like, cognitively harder to see them as victims. And then for women, the sa- or it's just cognitively easier to see them as victims, and so we feel that sympathy. But this is, it kind of sucks for both sexes. So in the domain of harm, men are disadvantaged and they're not seen as victims. But for women, in the domain, in other domains where you'd want to be the agentic person-

    6. CWChris Williamson1:26:10

       Mm-hmm, mm-hmm

    7. TRDr. Tania Reynolds1:26:11

       ... like a, if you're deciding on a CEO or a president, women aren't seen as, as agentic and as capable. So it's not like one sex is clearly doing better than the other. They're both facing these, like-

    8. CWChris Williamson1:26:23

       One doesn't get sympathy and one doesn't get belief.

    9. TRDr. Tania Reynolds1:26:25

       Mm-hmm.

    10. WCWilliam Costello1:26:26

        Mm.

    11. CWChris Williamson1:26:26

        Yeah. I, I guess that's one of the challenges I think that women face when they go into the workplace, that they feel like if they need to be assertive and dominant, they have to temper the throttle a bit, a little bit for fear of being bitchy. They don't want to be a bitch.

    12. TRDr. Tania Reynolds1:26:38

        Mm-hmm.

    13. CWChris Williamson1:26:38

        Right? Or a diva.

    14. TRDr. Tania Reynolds1:26:39

        Yeah. I feel like there's, like, a agency warmth continuum, and women are expected to be here, and if they go farther along agency, they're seen as low in warmth, bitchy.

    15. CWChris Williamson1:26:49

        Mm-hmm.

    16. TRDr. Tania Reynolds1:26:49

        But the same is true for men. They're higher on the agency side, and so if they show warmth by crying, they're not seen as as competent.

    17. CWChris Williamson1:26:55

        Mm-hmm.

    18. TRDr. Tania Reynolds1:26:55

        So, like, we're both encouraged-

    19. CWChris Williamson1:26:57

        But if-

    20. TRDr. Tania Reynolds1:26:57

        ... to stay in our lanes

    21. CWChris Williamson1:26:58

        ... if, but if women show too much warmth, they're seen as pliable and not competent, because it's seen that people that are a little bit more brusque are seen as higher competence, right?

    22. WCWilliam Costello1:27:08

        Yeah.

    23. CWChris Williamson1:27:08

        Warmth is negatively associated with competence, I think.

    24. WCWilliam Costello1:27:11

        Mm. And, and I just think this, uh, kind of protectiveness that we have about women, uh, it just gets repackaged as oppression in a way. And I get that you could be paternalistic and overly, and a lot of kind of, you know, abuse of women does occur under the guise of for their own good and protection. But it is astounding the extent to which we are more protective of... uh, women than men. I think-

    25. CWChris Williamson1:27:35

        You have to really contort yourself into a lot of knots, you know, to see the women are wonderful effect and think of it as oppression-

    26. WCWilliam Costello1:27:44

        Yeah

    27. CWChris Williamson1:27:44

        ... toward women. Like, can you, can, do you know much of the stats around the women are wonderful effect, like all of the different ways that people prefer women to men?

    28. TRDr. Tania Reynolds1:27:52

        I know one study that looked at this, kind of where they looked at, um, job dis- hiring discrimination, and it's gone down against women, but people overestimate its presence. And so they assume it's still there, even though the data suggests clearly it's not. So it's like we're almost, like, just sensitized to detect it, even if it's-

    29. WCWilliam Costello1:28:10

        Yeah

    30. TRDr. Tania Reynolds1:28:10

        ... not there. [laughs]
15. 1:28:20 – 1:32:59

    Why Attractiveness Is the Ignored Privilege

    1. WCWilliam Costello1:28:20

       biggie.

    2. CWChris Williamson1:28:20

       Is, is attractiveness under-acknowledged as a kind of privilege?

    3. WCWilliam Costello1:28:24

       Oh, I think so. Yeah. So on both ends of the spectrum, so the pretty privilege, which also has its costs. There's costs associated with being seen as pretty. Uh, other women in particular see you as more promiscuous and things like that. But there are enormous benefits across the board to being attractive, male or female. But then at the other end of the spectrum, there's enormous cost to being unattractive, and there is new research that shows that we're not readily, uh, able to recognize this form of privilege. We acknowledge other forms of privilege, but attractiveness, we're reluctant to acknowledge that it even exists.

    4. CWChris Williamson1:28:58

       Why?

    5. WCWilliam Costello1:28:58

       And we also have evidence that women are far more attractive than men. It's not just one OkCupid study. Loads of data unpublished from our lab finds this attractiveness discrepancy. There's l- tons of data. Women are just more attractive. So arguably, a feminine advantage in the domain of attractiveness, when that can be, uh, translated into so many resources. Uh, there are studies to show that beauty is status for women. Women defer to more beautiful women in the way that men defer to more formidable, uh, men. So this is an advantage, and it could be another thing that's actually a less acknowledged point about what's putting women off having children, is that they hear these horror stories-

    6. CWChris Williamson1:29:39

       The hit of beauty

    7. WCWilliam Costello1:29:39

       ... they're, they literally have to take a massive beauty hit, and that's just, there's no way around that.

    8. CWChris Williamson1:29:43

       But, uh [laughs]

    9. WCWilliam Costello1:29:44

       It's less than they've ever had to take, but it's still there.

    10. CWChris Williamson1:29:46

        It's so s- funny that, um, having kids would impact your beauty, but the effect of pretty privilege is denied and hidden.

    11. WCWilliam Costello1:29:55

        Yeah.

    12. CWChris Williamson1:29:56

        It's like, well, you, if that is playing into it, you have to admit the fact that it's there.

    13. WCWilliam Costello1:30:01

        Yes.

    14. CWChris Williamson1:30:01

        You know?

    15. WCWilliam Costello1:30:01

        Yeah. Yeah, I don't th- think people would acknowledge at face value that's one of the reasons. Well, you do see them sometimes women are like, "I'm not sacrificing my body for that," and-

    16. CWChris Williamson1:30:10

        Mm

    17. WCWilliam Costello1:30:10

        ... you know, it, we have new data come out that shows that relationships, having, being a parent, uh, similar levels of happiness to not being a parent. Greater levels of meaning to, for the parents, especially for women, but lower relationship satisfaction for the parents.

    18. CWChris Williamson1:30:27

        Hmm.

    19. WCWilliam Costello1:30:27

        So it does take a toll on the relationship, but certainly on the woman's mate value thereafter. Having the kids, the toll it takes on her beauty. So you can kind of see why women, if there's all these benefits, they can translate their beauty, which is their status-

    20. CWChris Williamson1:30:40

        Hmm

    21. WCWilliam Costello1:30:40

        ... into, they'd be reluctant to, to sacrifice all that.

    22. FIFreya India1:30:43

        Yeah, I mean, this is kind of what we were talking about before, which is that I think social media platforms have incentivized women to see themselves less as human and less... and more as products.

    23. WCWilliam Costello1:30:53

        Mm-hmm.

    24. FIFreya India1:30:53

        And so their life becomes about marketing themselves and optimizing themselves. And so I think, yeah, having a child disrupts being the perfect pristine product.

    25. WCWilliam Costello1:31:03

        Yeah.

    26. FIFreya India1:31:03

        But then we're in this really weird scenario where don't you want to look good in order to reproduce-

    27. WCWilliam Costello1:31:08

        Mm-hmm

    28. FIFreya India1:31:08

        ... and have children-

    29. WCWilliam Costello1:31:09

        Yeah

    30. FIFreya India1:31:09

        ... at base level? But now Instagram comes along, and Instagram, it ha- gives women so much dopamine and status-
16. 1:32:59 – 1:39:11

    Should You Be Friends Before Dating?

    1. WCWilliam Costello1:32:59

       this, but.

    2. CWChris Williamson1:32:59

       Uh, 60% of romantic relationships begin as friendships. Is this making the world harder to date in?

    3. WCWilliam Costello1:33:06

       Well, given that there's fewer and fewer cross-sex friendships, I think it, it should be, um, celebrated that this is an avenue towards relationship formation and, you know, the age-old question of can men and women ever just be friends. We've just got a new paper accepted that shows that, uh, we call it courtship and cross-sex friendship, where men, uh, provision financially to their cross-sex friendships that they're m- interested in mating with. 50% of people say they have romantic interest in a cross-sex friend. Uh, the same number have had sex with at least one, particularly young people. So I do think it's a good pathway to relationships, and if you formed more cross-sex friendships, you, it would be a direct route to relationships because-Attraction grows over time. You get, uh, uh, you know, proximity breeds intimacy, but also you get to display a lot of the same qualities that make for a good mate make for a good friend, too. And men and women select friends, uh, who have the same qualities that they want in a mate. So protection, uh, physical attractiveness, resources. So it's a good pathway. But the secondary route is it broadens your networks, and it also helps you learn about cross-sex mind reading. So it's very hard to actually, you know, come to the boneheaded beliefs of some of the red pill/black pill world online if you actually have in real life female friends that you know kind of disprove a lot of what, what you hear.

    4. CWChris Williamson1:34:32

       I'm gonna quote you back to you here.

    5. WCWilliam Costello1:34:33

       Okay.

    6. CWChris Williamson1:34:33

       William Costello polled 527 heterosexual and bisexual people. Are opposite sex friendships ever truly platonic? 81% of women said yes. Only 58% of men said yes. Women were three times more likely than men to say their friendship was purely platonic.

    7. WCWilliam Costello1:34:50

       Mm. So I think it's a little ... Like, women hear that and they sometimes get very upset that, to learn that their male friends see them as-

    8. CWChris Williamson1:34:57

       That nearly half of your guy friends are trying to sleep with you

    9. WCWilliam Costello1:35:00

       ... would. W- well, not necessarily. It's just that they kind of would. So, uh, and this is the, kind of the misconception. It, that women maybe hear that and they think, "Oh, so he only wants to sleep with me," and it's not quite the case. It's just-

    10. CWChris Williamson1:35:11

        He just would

    11. WCWilliam Costello1:35:11

        ... that he probably would.

    12. CWChris Williamson1:35:12

        [laughs]

    13. WCWilliam Costello1:35:12

        Yeah. But it's like-

    14. CWChris Williamson1:35:14

        Well, shut up

    15. WCWilliam Costello1:35:14

        ... when people hear about this for the first time and they doubt it, I, I always say, "Just try it. Just try when you're out for a few drinks next time."

    16. CWChris Williamson1:35:21

        Do you remember that one in The Economist, a study of Americans finds that in platonic couples, men are far more likely than the woman to find their friend sexy and far more likely to think that she finds them attractive, too. Indeed, a man's assessment of how much his female friend fancies him matches how much he fancies her and is entirely unrelated to how she really feels.

    17. WCWilliam Costello1:35:40

        [laughs]

    18. CWChris Williamson1:35:40

        Clearly men are prone to wishful thinking.

    19. WCWilliam Costello1:35:42

        Yeah. Yeah. Well, men need to kind of pluck up the courage somewhere. And if they had to-

    20. CWChris Williamson1:35:45

        Everyone wants to be asked out more.

    21. WCWilliam Costello1:35:47

        It, yeah.

    22. CWChris Williamson1:35:47

        That was your thing.

    23. WCWilliam Costello1:35:48

        That's true als- also. So, you know, on the one hand, women want to be approached more, but then are kind of unhappy to learn that their opposite sex friends are interested in them. But, uh, I do think women keep some opposite sex friends as backup mates, too, and they-

    24. CWChris Williamson1:36:02

        Oh, this, so you've got loads of data around backup mates.

    25. WCWilliam Costello1:36:04

        Uh-

    26. CWChris Williamson1:36:04

        Come on.

    27. WCWilliam Costello1:36:05

        But yeah, I just think ultimately, uh, we should celebrate and try and cultivate more opposite sex friendships 'cause it, it could be a pathway to, to proper relationships.

    28. FIFreya India1:36:13

        I wonder if on social media that, uh, disincentivizes opposite sex friendships because you live in different worlds completely. So we were talking earlier and you hadn't heard of influences that, like, shaped my childhood.

    29. CWChris Williamson1:36:26

        How did I not know Moella?

    30. FIFreya India1:36:27

        Zoella.
17. 1:39:11 – 1:45:04

    Is Effortless Beauty More Attractive?

    1. WCWilliam Costello1:39:12

       One more thing on the looksmaxxing, uh, Chris, is I thought it was interesting that, uh, did you see the Australian guy you interviewed, Clavicular-

    2. FIFreya India1:39:20

       Yeah

    3. WCWilliam Costello1:39:20

       ... the looksmaxxer?

    4. FIFreya India1:39:21

       I was gonna say, he's more effortlessly-

    5. WCWilliam Costello1:39:23

       In ... Right

    6. FIFreya India1:39:23

       ... good-looking. And I think that-

    7. WCWilliam Costello1:39:25

       So that's ... Yeah. I, I think that's true, that for men to be handsome, it needs to be like they didn't try.

    8. FIFreya India1:39:29

       Yeah.

    9. CWChris Williamson1:39:29

       Right.

    10. FIFreya India1:39:29

        Yeah, yeah.

    11. WCWilliam Costello1:39:30

        Now, I've done a little bit of a deep dive into that guy's Instagram, and he certainly tries.

    12. FIFreya India1:39:34

        [laughs]

    13. WCWilliam Costello1:39:35

        And he certainly knows he's a handsome guy and what- whatever. But he's, he's definitely pulling off that effortlessness-

    14. FIFreya India1:39:40

        Mm

    15. WCWilliam Costello1:39:40

        ... much more. But it's interesting that the commentary around him being, Clavicular being mugged by this more handsome Australian interviewer, it's kind of proving Clavicular's philosophy exactly correct. He's like, "You're saying that he's more handsome, so he mugs me. That's my whole philosophy." I, I'm exactly right.

    16. FIFreya India1:40:00

        Yeah.

    17. WCWilliam Costello1:40:00

        It's all about looks.

    18. CWChris Williamson1:40:01

        Why do you

    19. WCWilliam Costello1:40:03

        spend time with people like that and

    20. TRDr. Tania Reynolds1:40:05

        All right. Have a nice day. Uh, are you trying to... I, I see you want to make this, uh, political. Too bad I, I didn't have time to, to look into, you know, anything about potentially, uh, you know, who's, who your wife cheated with. But don't try to go down that line of questioning, uh, with me, all right?

    21. WCWilliam Costello1:40:26

        I mean, um-

    22. TRDr. Tania Reynolds1:40:27

        'Cause I'm not doing any political-

    23. WCWilliam Costello1:40:28

        I'm not married

    24. TRDr. Tania Reynolds1:40:29

        ... castrating, so.

    25. WCWilliam Costello1:40:31

        But I was, I was simply only asking because obviously-

    26. TRDr. Tania Reynolds1:40:33

        Maybe you gotta, maybe you gotta looksmax then. So I could, uh, I could teach you about looksmaxxing then. Maybe you could, uh, switch that up. But thanks for, thanks for the time. Appreciate the interview. All right.

    27. CWChris Williamson1:40:42

        Uh, I mean, look, they did light them quite nicely.

    28. WCWilliam Costello1:40:45

        Yeah.

    29. CWChris Williamson1:40:46

        Which was good. It was definitely quite a sultry... If that turned into gay porn-

    30. TRDr. Tania Reynolds1:40:49

        [laughs]
18. 1:45:04 – 1:45:52

    Where to Find Everyone

    1. CWChris Williamson1:45:04

       Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Guys, I fucking love you all. You're all brilliant. Uh, Wes, what have you got coming out? You've got a book.

    2. FIFreya India1:45:09

       Yes, just a book called Girls, and my Substack, freyaindia.co.uk.

    3. CWChris Williamson1:45:13

       Tania, what have you got to push? Anything?

    4. TRDr. Tania Reynolds1:45:14

       Um, a new paper called The Greater Female Vulnerability Hypothesis. It's still getting published, so not yet out.

    5. CWChris Williamson1:45:22

       Okay. William?

    6. WCWilliam Costello1:45:23

       My Blue Sky.

    7. FIFreya India1:45:25

       [laughs]

    8. WCWilliam Costello1:45:25

       [laughs]

    9. TRDr. Tania Reynolds1:45:25

       [laughs]

    10. WCWilliam Costello1:45:26

        Just follow me on X.

    11. CWChris Williamson1:45:28

        Yeah.

    12. WCWilliam Costello1:45:28

        You'll see lots of fire polls and some exciting stuff coming out. Follow me on Google Scholar to see the academic stuff.

    13. CWChris Williamson1:45:33

        Unreal. Guys, I appreciate you all. We've christened, uh, Evolutionary Psychology Roundtable, uh, getting in loads of trouble in the new studio. I appreciate you all.

    14. WCWilliam Costello1:45:40

        [laughs]

    15. CWChris Williamson1:45:40

        All right.

    16. WCWilliam Costello1:45:41

        Health to it.

    17. CWChris Williamson1:45:41

        Goodbye, everybody.

    18. FIFreya India1:45:42

        This was fun.

    19. WCWilliam Costello1:45:43

        Yeah.

    20. TRDr. Tania Reynolds1:45:43

        Yeah.

    21. WCWilliam Costello1:45:44

        Fun. Yeah. Of course. Loved it. [upbeat music]

    22. CWChris Williamson1:45:46

        Thank you very much for tuning in. If you enjoyed that episode, another one that I know you'll love is just here.

Episode duration: 1:45:53