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DEREK SIVERS | Making Decisions, Achieving Excellence & Finding Meaning | Modern Wisdom Podcast 150

Derek Sivers is a writer, entrepreneur & musician. Derek's episodes on The Tim Ferriss Show are some of my all time favourites so I was super excited to speak to him. Expect to learn how to guide your choices at a crossroad, his views on excellence, why it doesn't matter if life has no meaning, why truth is less simple than it might seem, why the truth can be more complex than a simple answer, and when Derek is finally going to release his new books. Extra Stuff: Check out Derek's Website - https://sivers.org/ Check out all Derek's Book Recommendations - https://sivers.org/book Take a break from alcohol and upgrade your life - https://6monthssober.com/podcast Check out everything I recommend from books to products - https://www.amazon.co.uk/shop/modernwisdom #dereksivers - Listen to all episodes online. Search "Modern Wisdom" on any Podcast App or click here: iTunes: https://apple.co/2MNqIgw Spotify: https://spoti.fi/2LSimPn Stitcher: https://www.stitcher.com/podcast/modern-wisdom - Get in touch in the comments below or head to... Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/chriswillx Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/chriswillx Email: modernwisdompodcast@gmail.com

Chris WilliamsonhostDerek Siversguest
Mar 12, 20201h 16mWatch on YouTube ↗

EVERY SPOKEN WORD

  1. 0:00 – 2:50

    Intro

    1. CW

      (wind blowing) Hello, people of podcast land. Welcome back. My guest today is none other than Derek Sivers, writer, entrepreneur, programmer, fascinating human. He is one of the best guests I've ever heard on Tim Ferriss's show, so I'm very fortunate to have got a hold of him and sit him down on the big stage, obviously, Modern Wisdom. So yeah, had a long list of questions to go through today, including what have you been working on recently, get to find out where Derek's been spending his time. When are you going to finally release the now three books that he's been sat on? Excellence in life and how he perceives it. Why nuance is where truth lies rather than in a simple and succinct answer. Values and how they can both guide and restrict the way that we operate. Why it doesn't matter that we only live for a short period of time and in 50 years no one may even remember our names. Oh, it was so good. Derek, man, thank you so much for coming on. It was phenomenal. I already want to do another one. In other news, if you are new here, don't forget to hit the subscribe button. You will receive one episode every Monday and every Thursday with the world's most fascinating humans delivered directly to your listening device of choice. But for now, please welcome the wise and wonderful Derek Sivers. Derek Sivers in the building. How are you, man?

    2. DS

      (laughs) Any particular building will do. Yes, I am in a building.

    3. CW

      You are in the building.

    4. DS

      Is that crazy?

    5. CW

      You're in our building today.

    6. DS

      That's true. I'm in your audio building.

    7. CW

      That is it.

    8. DS

      Thank you for having me to your audio home.

    9. CW

      Thank you very much for joining us. So, as a man who says no to a lot, very glad that you said yes to coming on this podcast. It's been a while since I've heard you put out an audio podcast. I'm very honored to be the guy that we've reentered 2012 with. So-

    10. DS

      Well, it's, uh, 2012. Um-

    11. CW

      2012, 2020, you can tell it's been a long day.

    12. DS

      (laughs) Uh, I, uh, yeah, I really, really like what you're doing with Modern Wisdom, and I really like your topics of conversation. So, these days when somebody asks me to do an interview, you know I've got nothing I'm promoting or pitching, so it's all about the quality of conversation, and you sent me some really interesting topics of conversation.

    13. CW

      Thank you. Yeah, it's, um...

  2. 2:50 – 4:51

    What have you been working on

    1. CW

      There's two, two types of guests I've found doing the podcast. One are guests who do their due diligence and then jump in, and then there's another type who like to really go deep before we begin about what we're gonna be talking about, and both of them I find to have their, have their merits. Um, but yeah, it's, I'm really looking forward to today. To the, the listeners, I've been going back with Derek since November time, before I went to Bali, before I went to Greece, and I've been thinking about all of these different questions. So we've, we've got a big breadcrumb trail of stuff that we've been thinking about.

    2. DS

      (laughs)

    3. CW

      Um, but first question that I've got for you is, what have you been working on recently? If you were to update your Now page today, what would it say?

    4. DS

      Huh, I have been programming. Um, up until Christmas, I was working maniacally on my next book, which is called How to Live, which I'm so fucking excited about. And I was seriously doing, like, 15-hour days of writing, which I think you're not supposed to do for health reasons. But I would just get out of bed at 6:00 AM and I would just write and write and write and write and write. You know, I'd stop for lunch and I'd just write until I would drop at midnight. And I was doing that for months on end, and I was so into it, but then around Christmastime, um, my assistant reminded me that some other things having to do with my first and second book are on hold because they're waiting for me to program some things for the translators and the, the store. So, ever since Christmas, I, uh, paused. So what, what are we now, March something? So two and a half months. For two and a half months, I've been doing nothing but programming every day. Programing, um, programming the, the store where I'm gonna sell the books directly from my site, programming a translation system to manage all the translations of my books and stuff like that. I've just been in programmer head, which is fun.

  3. 4:51 – 5:17

    Who is Stephen Wolfram

    1. DS

    2. CW

      That's cool. I, um, I had Stephen Wolfram on the podcast a while ago. You know Stephen?

    3. DS

      I met him when he was a teenager and I was-

    4. CW

      No way.

    5. DS

      ... a little kid. I, my dad's a f- particle physicist. We were living here in Abingdon, England.

    6. CW

      Mm-hmm.

    7. DS

      And Stephen Wolfram, my dad tells me, I don't remember this, but when I was five, uh, I had dinner with Stephen. Um, haven't seen him since then (laughs) .

    8. CW

      You should,

  4. 5:17 – 7:33

    Writing while walking

    1. CW

      uh, you should reach out to him. Stephen's, for the people, for the people who don't know who he is, uh, go back and listen to the episode. Just search Stephen Wolfram in the Modern Wisdom page. But, um, that is a man who has really, really optimized the ability to code as much as possible. You know, he's got a special-

    2. DS

      Yeah.

    3. CW

      ... laptop harness where he can go for a walk-

    4. DS

      (laughs)

    5. CW

      ... while he's still, while he's still coding, which just looks like the maddest thing. You got this guy with essentially a baby stroller attached to him, but instead of it being a child-

    6. DS

      (laughs)

    7. CW

      ... it's just, like, some Python or some Wolfram Mathematica or Wolfram Language, whatever it is.

    8. DS

      Right. But, you know, I did a five-day-long walk in the forests of New Zealand, and I had so many thoughts during that time. I, for one, I just enjoyed it so much, just walking, walking, walking through a gorgeous forest. Felt like...... yeah, this is how life should be.

    9. CW

      Mm.

    10. DS

      Like, if you can get away with it, this is a great way to live, to spend most of your time walking through a gorgeous forest. And I, I, but then I have other aspirations in life. You know, I, I, there are a lot of things I want to write.

    11. CW

      Mm.

    12. DS

      And there are things I want to read. So reading while walking, I think we've solved that pretty well with audiobooks. But writing while walking, I can't do that yet. I'd like to. That would be maybe, like, a skill that one could practice, you know, the way that you decide, "Look, okay, I'm gonna start speaking Portuguese or-"

    13. CW

      Mm-hmm.

    14. DS

      ... you know, learning to play the sitar, you would start at the very beginning and you would understand that you're not expected t- to know how to do this thing today. But yeah, something like this, idea of writing through voice and, like, recording your voice-

    15. CW

      Mm. Yeah.

    16. DS

      ... instead of having to write down visually, you know, on a typewriter and see it in front of you, that would be just a very different skill to, to learn. But it seems like it'd be really useful. Like, I think we have, between the voice recording and, uh, voice recognition, dictation software, I think we have the tools where it would be really, really viable to do this as your main method of writing, is to just do it orally. Um, it's very appealing.

  5. 7:33 – 8:24

    Treadmill desk

    1. DS

      Um, yeah.

    2. CW

      How much of it is the being outside and how much of it is it, is the movement? Because you could get, you could quite easily get a treadmill desk, you could get a True Runner desk, which is one of those self-powered, um-

    3. DS

      Oh. That's just sad.

    4. CW

      Oh, no. You, you, you got to, you got to have the landscape going by, right?

    5. DS

      Yeah, I think it's, uh, it's the combination. It's the walk, 'cause I mean, you could also say if it was just the outside, you could say, "Okay, we'll set up your laptop on a picnic bench outside."

    6. CW

      Al fresco, yeah.

    7. DS

      Uh, so no, I think it's, it's the both. It's the walking outside through a forest. God, I've never... I think I've tried a treadmill once in my life-

    8. CW

      (laughs)

    9. DS

      ... and it just felt like the saddest thing.

    10. CW

      (laughs)

    11. DS

      I mean, we use them as a, uh, as a negative metaphor, don't we? Like, you know, "How's work?" "Uh, it's just, you know, the treadmill."

    12. CW

      Yeah. You are right. It's badly branded. They should rebrand.

    13. DS

      (laughs)

    14. CW

      They should call themselves something else, shouldn't they?

  6. 8:24 – 10:36

    How to Live

    1. CW

    2. DS

      (laughs)

    3. CW

      Um, so that's what you've been working on recently. You've been programming and writing. Am I right in thinking that your How to Live book, is that a descendant of the directives that you wrote?

    4. DS

      Yes.

    5. CW

      Cool.

    6. DS

      Very good, yeah. It's, uh-

    7. CW

      So that's the child, the love child of the directives?

    8. DS

      Yes. Uh, and if you have read the book by David Eagleman called Sum, S-U-M, it's, it's an homage to that book. Um, Sum is probably my single favorite book. If... There's a page on my website where I collect my notes from every book I've read since 2007. Uh, it's sivers.org/book, and, uh, I think there's 300 something books there now that I've read. And so I take detailed notes whenever I'm reading something, and so Sum is the number one book at the top of that list because I have it sorted with my top recommendations up top, and I wish everybody would read that book. I just think it's one of the most brilliant, creative think piece books. It's, it's like 40 little short stories, just two to three pages long each-

    9. CW

      Mm-hmm.

    10. DS

      ... each one answering the question, what happens when you die?

    11. CW

      (laughs)

    12. DS

      And so it's, it's a, it's a re- it's a constant reimagining. So it's 40 different answers to that one question.

    13. CW

      Okay.

    14. DS

      And I just love that format so much where, you know, chapter three will say, "When you die, you're, you know, you awaken in a great hall and it's just empty and you find out that, uh, God is a creator, he's not a manager. You know, he tipped over the first domino billions of years ago and he's on to other things. He doesn't even know we exist." Um, you know, chapter six, "When you die, you find out that, uh, what you knew as your life was actually just an artificial intelligence program. You are an artificial intelligence program," da da da da da. And so I just like this, this idea of 40 answers to one question, each one deliberately disagreeing with the previous chapter, 'cause it's just a re- uh, a reimagining of the, um-

    15. CW

      Yeah.

    16. DS

      ... a different answer. And so my book, How to Live, is an homage to Sum. It's using that exact same format to answer the question, uh, how to live.

  7. 10:36 – 13:32

    Writing

    1. DS

    2. CW

      It seems like your approach to writing, your approach to content production in general at the moment, based on, if anyone goes to sivers.org, you can see it's lean, is how I would describe it.

    3. DS

      (laughs)

    4. CW

      That's a diplomatic way of putting it. It's lean, right? There's, there's very-

    5. DS

      Yes.

    6. CW

      ... very little fluff. And the directives that you came up with, I think a list of 120, um, essentially instructions. We have a series on this podcast called Life Hacks, and that is essentially, um, directives for Gen X who have an iPhone-

    7. DS

      Mm-hmm.

    8. CW

      ... in their pocket, um, and probably £30 to spend. Um, (laughs) and, uh, yeah, it, it's, it's, it seems to be a very, very lean, very no fluff. Um, I wonder if that's something that you've developed recently or whether that's something that you've always liked to do, whether you've always liked to s- kind of remove the fluff?

    9. DS

      Um, hmm. If you, when people come visit my house, I'm living here in Oxford now, when they come to my house, the first question most people who come in ask is, "Do you live here?"

    10. CW

      (laughs)

    11. DS

      (laughs) 'Cause it's just empty. I'm like, "Yeah, well, I don't know. To me, I feel quite settled. I mean, look, I have a couch. That's, that's kind of big for me, you know, a couch." Um, so yeah, I think the minimalism goes through all aspects of my life. But when it comes to writing, I think it's just considerate.... um, I think the more you say, the less people hear, or the more they kind of tune out. If somebody- if, if you tell somebody, "Check out this article," and they click the link and they see the article and they say, "Oof, okay, this is like 50 paragraphs, or 100, like this is going to take me half an hour to read," they may skim it quickly. On the other hand, if they click and it's only 18 sentences, well then, hopefully they're going to read all 18 sentences. So, I found out that the average length of one of the articles on my site, and therefore the chapters in my book, the average length is just 22 sentences. So I really, you know-

    12. CW

      (laughs)

    13. DS

      ... I, I chiseled them down. I, I get rid of every single word and sentence that isn't absolutely necessary.

    14. CW

      Mm-hmm.

    15. DS

      But I think that also comes from the fact that I spent th- 15 formative years of my life as a songwriter. From the age of 14 to 29, my primary goal in life was to be a great songwriter, and I wrote over 100 songs and, you know, that's 15 years of my life trying to say what I want to say in six syllables-

    16. CW

      (laughs)

    17. DS

      ... to match the melody, you know? So, maybe it's just like I spent so many years, you know, choosing the exact words in the minimum syllables to match the melody, so I think I still kind of take that approach to my writing.

  8. 13:32 – 18:24

    Crossroad opportunities

    1. DS

    2. CW

      I understand. Yeah, it's, um ... There's a, a wonderful article by Scott Adams. It's The Day You Became a Better Writer, um, and it- I think it's probably two paragraphs long and it's one of the most ...

    3. DS

      (laughs)

    4. CW

      ... it's one of the most cited, uh, bits of advice for fledgling writers and Tim Ferriss quoted it on a podcast a, a while ago and essentially broke the internet with it. You just completely-

    5. DS

      Hm.

    6. CW

      It just annihilated poor Scott's site, and Scott's got to buy extra server space and stuff for all this traffic.

    7. DS

      (laughs)

    8. CW

      So, moving on to some of the things that, um, I wanted to talk about today. So, something I've been thinking about a lot recently is to do with crossroad opportunities in life. So we have these, kind of like epochs, in our life, right? We have these grooves that we've greased, and then often there comes a time where we need to choose whether or not we continue to grease that groove, or we decide to take ourselves outside of that. And often, like a river, we take the path of least resistance.

    9. DS

      Hm.

    10. CW

      But to change the flow of that river, there's a lot of inertia to get over, a lot of stagnation to get over. I wanted to know your thoughts about that, about crossroad opportunities in life.

    11. DS

      Um ... Well, I think when we're at those times in life where we're making decisions, we forget to explicitly name the benefit of doing nothing, of just continuing as we are now, right? Like, too many people, they say, "Okay, well, I have to- I have to make a choice between A and B." But then they forget, well, there's option C, which is to just do nothing, um, and just carry on as you are now. So I don't mean consider it, I mean actually state it and say it out loud. Like, name it as an option. So, the usual thing, you know, people say, "Should I do this new thing? What are the benefits? What are the drawbacks?" So I think that you should also ask, "What are the benefits of not doing this new thing?" Like, what are the benefits of doing nothing? Um, I really like th- this ... I, I heard this idea in a book called, um, The Courage to be Disliked, uh, which was also really brilliant, one of the best things I've ever read. Um, and it tells you to consider why you're not changing. Like, why are you just continuing on the way you are? It is clearly offering you a benefit if you keep doing it. So if you ask yourself, "Why am I just carrying on as usual?" you might come up with an answer like, "Well, my life is pretty good now, I'm happy," or, "There's a chance that doing this new thing would make my life harder, and I don't want to risk that."

    12. CW

      Mm-hmm.

    13. DS

      Um, so you can name the mental mindset ones, right? Like, "My, my life feels under control right now, and I like feeling in control. I like feeling like an expert. I like feeling smart. If I do this new thing, I'm going to feel dumb and out of control," like trying to write a book while walking through the forest.

    14. CW

      (laughs)

    15. DS

      (laughs) Um, but then I think that once you bring these to the surface, then instead of sitting in your subconscious, you've, you've now brought them to the table, right? Like, you can now weigh them in your decision. You've laid them out as an alternate option. And then you have to admit that it's okay to do nothing. Like, I think often we, we feel that we're always supposed to be doing something, but ... You know, Warren Buffett is quite public, but he has a quiet partner, um, Charlie Munger, who's a really interesting thinker. Um, Charlie Munger gave this interesting advice to young investors. So people of course, you know, say- everybody just, you know, gets him up on a stage and says, "How can we be successful investors?"

    16. CW

      Mm-hmm.

    17. DS

      So, one of his top bits of advice he gave, specifically to young people, I think it was a speech he gave at a college graduation, was he said, "Imagine you've got one of those little loyalty punch cards." You know, one of those little loyalty cards with 10 holes in it that they can punch out?

    18. CW

      A Starbucks card or whatever, yeah.

    19. DS

      Yes. He said, "Imagine it's got 10 holes in it that can be punched, and that is the total number of investments you're allowed to make in your life. That's it. You can only make 10 investments in your life." And he said, "If that was the case, you'd be better off just waiting and waiting for years for the right thing to come by, and then when the right thing comes along, you, you knock it out of the park." (laughs) To use the baseball metaphor. Y- you just dive in all the way when you see the right opportunity.... um, which is kind of what my, you know, next book, called Hell Yeah or No, is about.

  9. 18:24 – 22:35

    Decision making

    1. DS

    2. CW

      I want you to talk about your approach to decision-making in general. And you have a page on your site which is /slow, right? I think that's, uh-

    3. DS

      Yeah.

    4. CW

      ... considered. Again, the same way that the articles are lean, the decision-making is considered. Is that because of Charlie's approach, that if you make the right decision, you only need to get a couple of them very, very right?

    5. DS

      Hmm. There's a theme I think is going to come up a few times in this conversation, which is, there's no right or wrong approach. All of these things, this, you know, this modern wisdom, (laughs) these philosophies-

    6. CW

      Mm-hmm.

    7. DS

      ... are just tools that we use for specific situations. Um, so I have this article called Hell Yeah or No that a lot of people quote, and they tell me that they, they like that idea of hell yeah or no. And so, they email me saying, "Oh, this is great. I'm going to use it. I'm using it for everything in my life now."

    8. CW

      Mm-hmm.

    9. DS

      They say, "No, no, no, no, no, no. Hell Yeah or No is, like, one specific tool for one specific situation when you're overwhelmed with options and you're in danger of drowning." Well, then you raise the bar all the way and say no to almost everything, and say yes to almost nothing. But it's for a situation where, you know, you're in danger of drowning.

    10. CW

      Mm-hmm.

    11. DS

      Um, if, for example, you're straight out of college and you're welcome to the world and you're about to jump out there and try to make something of yourself, then it's probably a better strategy to say yes to everything. Just do it all. Sleep less, say yes to everything, try everything, go everywhere, meet everyone, do, you know, 20 different jobs per year (laughs) for a few weeks each.

    12. CW

      Mm-hmm.

    13. DS

      And just do it all. And then when something hits, when the world starts rewarding you in a certain aspect, well, then you can double down on that. And then when you start to get successful in that one thing and then everybody wants a piece of you, well then now maybe it's a time to start saying no to almost everything and just stay focused on this one thing that is, like, giving you major payoffs. So, when you ask about my slow thinking, um, that was more of just, like, that felt like a, a cathartic admission, um ...

    14. CW

      Also probably a little bit of a disclaimer.

    15. DS

      Yes, thank you. Good word.

    16. CW

      (laughs)

    17. DS

      It was a bit of a disclaimer. Um, because, hmm. Partially because I meet strangers that ask me deep questions, and they go, "Oh, Derek Sivers. Oh my God, I want to ask you something." They ask me a question, and I say, "Huh, I don't know." (laughs) And they just look at me a little disappointed, like-

    18. CW

      I thought you were Derek Sivers.

    19. DS

      "You're supposed to have the answer." I'm like, "Well, in a few days I will."

    20. CW

      Mm-hmm.

    21. DS

      Um, so I just noticed that, uh, I'm just not the quickest draw, but that's okay. It was just, I just spent a little time thinking that through and realizing I don't, I don't need to be quick. And in fact, I think it's really kind of cool not to try to be quick, because when, when you try to be quick, you know, you think, "Oh my God, I have to answer in two seconds." You know, like, what's that game? Jeopardy, where you have to press the buzzer quickly.

    22. CW

      (laughs)

    23. DS

      Um, you, you just give this kind of knee-jerk reaction off the top of your head. You give the first thing that comes to mind. And I've just found that the first thing that comes to mind isn't as interesting as the, the things that come to mind much later, whether it's five minutes or five days later. But it's those things that once you work through the usual reaction and get to the other side of that, that's the shit I want to, you know, dive into. So yeah, it was kind of embracing my slow approach.

  10. 22:35 – 24:55

    Closing the loop

    1. DS

    2. CW

      I agree. I think certainly there's, there's something to do with closing the loop as well. We all want to appear competent-

    3. DS

      Mm-hmm.

    4. CW

      ... capable. You ask me a question, "Oh yeah, of course, I've got, you know, I- I've already written an article on that. Don't you worry, man. Like, let me just pull out the bibliography and I'll start citing from all the different books, 'cause it makes me look really cool."

    5. DS

      (laughs) Right.

    6. CW

      I, I fall into that trap. I'm watching myself now. I'm trying to constantly, um, strip away the very sticky elements of the persona of now becoming a competent regular podcaster.

    7. DS

      Right.

    8. CW

      So when people ask me things, "Oh, well, you know, I had this conversation with Aubrey Marcus. It's very interesting. On episode 117, when he said that..." And I'm like, "No, no, no, Chris. For fuck's sake, mate. Like, just, you know, just allow yourself to sit with the question. Don't try and, and broadcast this, this version of you which is competent and capable and this, that and the other," because I don't think that's me. And for some people that might be. You know, you're maybe the Gary Vaynerchuk of this world, perhaps.

    9. DS

      Right.

    10. CW

      Someone who's one of these hyper quick thinkers who does the Q&A on stage and, you know, the, the big conference thing and, you know, the life advice. I- I'm not, I'm not convinced that that's where my value lies. And it would appear that you have identified in yourself that you add more value by waiting and considering and then coming back than giving something to close the loop and, and look cool and look capable and, and competent.

    11. DS

      Right, but it isn't just about looks. Um, in my case, I am pursuing the path of being a great writer, thinker kind of guy. I'm not pursuing the path of being a great interviewer or-... you know, debater.

    12. CW

      Yup.

    13. DS

      If, if I wanted to be a great interviewer or debater, then I would have to change my value system accordingly. I would say, "Okay, well, I used to be a slow thinker and that's my default, but I need to practice being a quick thinker now because I really want to be a great debater or interviewer." And that just, you need to be quick, that's just th- how that game goes. Um-

    14. CW

      The Ben Shapiro approach, yeah.

    15. DS

      Right. Um, so yeah. Uh, the slow thinking is for me for my current situation.

  11. 24:55 – 32:43

    Values

    1. DS

    2. CW

      I get it, and it facilitates that. So you've touched on one of the words I wanted to move on to there, which is values. What would you identify as your life values?

    3. DS

      (laughs) Okay, that's a big one.

    4. CW

      That is a big one, but it's a question that I like, it's a question that I like to ask and it's one that I've been pondering a lot recently. And I managed to... Well, why don't I tell you mine? Should I tell you mine?

    5. DS

      Okay, please. Thank you.

    6. CW

      Cool. So I did an exercise at the start of the year, um, and I refined mine down to five. You're supposed to have no more than five. I mean, who's, who's the, the, the master of values told us that you're not supposed... The Values Agency told me I wasn't allowed-

    7. DS

      (laughs)

    8. CW

      ... to have more than five values or else I'd have to pay tax on the remainder-

    9. DS

      Right, right.

    10. CW

      ... on the ones over the top. Um, so mine actually spelled out words. So they spelled out an acronym, CASES. So number one, curiosity, uh, to be curious, to learn new things about myself and the world around me. A, adventure, to experience new things and meet and see new people. Uh, a word that I made up, which was selfless development, which is to learn about myself, improve, and then teach others what I've learned.

    11. DS

      Mm-hmm.

    12. CW

      E was excellence, to be precise with my thoughts, words, and actions. I want to fulfill my potential, I want to make the most of minutes. And then the final one was self-care. If I don't look after myself, I can't do the things that I want to do for myself and others. And I realized that at the moment, if I ensure that broadly most of the stuff that I do on a daily basis meets some of those, most of those, at least one of those, I'm, I'm probably in the right ballpark.

    13. DS

      Wow, very cool.

    14. CW

      Thank you.

    15. DS

      I like that. Um, hmm. Okay, well, um, I think my big ones are, they're not single words like that, but they're more like a, uh-

    16. CW

      Mm-hmm.

    17. DS

      ... concept. So to me, one of the biggest ones is to ignore what you say, but notice what you do. So I think about this one a lot, that, um, that the words... Your, your actions reveal your values. So t- kind of doesn't matter what you say, your, your actions show what you really value. You can say that you, you think it's important to be kind to everybody, but then if you're going around being an asshole, well, then that's clearly not one of your values, no matter what you say. Um, so I think that we do too much thinking about what we want in theory and too little noticing what we want in practice.

    18. CW

      Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, I agree.

    19. DS

      So that's kind of the same thing, right? Like, we, we can say, we can think that we want something, but you really have to go out into the world and try things. So if you have a theory about what you want, you have to go try it as soon as possible to find out if you really want that, and then be very open to the fact that your theory might have been wrong.

    20. CW

      (laughs)

    21. DS

      And, and don't be upset about that. You just say, "Oh, okay." You just, especially once you acknowledge the difference, you can say, "Okay, well, sitting at home in my bedroom with my notebook, I thought I wanted this thing, but now that I'm actually doing it, I found out I don't," and that's okay. Um, so another value, uh, or yeah, I think we often oversimplify. Like, you think, "I'm sick of the city, I want to live in the country," so you move to the country. But then after a few months you miss the city. So the tr- a- and I have a lot of friends in New York City that did this.

    22. CW

      (laughs)

    23. DS

      New York City is one of those places where it has this really nice Upstate New York area that's, like, just an hour north of New York City, and so a lot of people feel, like, burnt out in the city, so they say, "You know what? I need to move upstate," and then they do, but then after a few months, almost every time, they miss the city. So I think the truth was more nuanced, which is that sometimes you prefer the city and sometimes you prefer the country, but that nuanced truth is less dramatic, it's less simple, so it's harder to, you know, tweet your stance on that. Like, we kind of, I think we, we want to have a very simple version of our self-identity so that we can fit it into our little social profile and say who we are quickly in a sentence, but then I think we often oversimplify. Um, or (clears throat) sorry, the thing that we said a couple minutes ago where often, um, things are situational. Like, you want one thing when you're in a certain situation, but not when you're not.

    24. CW

      Hmm.

    25. DS

      Right? Like I said, the hell yeah or no is an idea for a certain situation. But then the problem is we feel some need to decide, like, "Well, which is it? Do I value this thing or not?" So I think often about, um, this kind of rule of thumb of don't oversimplify, that you need to acknowledge nuance and acknowledge conditional situations. Um, yeah. Friends of mine that... When my friends and I... Like, my, my friends are kind of spread out around the world, so most of our conversations are by phone, and when friends have these kind of life situations, I, I hear they're often trying to decide, "Am I going to do this thing or that thing, or do I prefer this or that?" And I'm always the one that I feel it's like my job to remind them to acknowledge nuance, nuance, that the answer might be both. Um, I like this idea that in between black and white is not only gray, but actually every color in the world.

    26. CW

      (laughs)

    27. DS

      So I think you can choose to be colorful in your values.... and like colors in nature, you can also acknowledge that you're ever-changing. You know, like I've, I've gone through some very distinct phases in my life where I've made a life decision to be in the middle of everything, you know, "I'm gonna move to Singapore, I'm gonna be in the middle of Asia, I'm gonna meet everybody and do everything." And I did that for a few years, and then I had a kid. Then I was like, "Mm, mm, I've got a baby now. I want to move to the middle of nowhere in New Zealand and just raise my kid in nature and, you know, give the finger to the world." (laughs) So I was like-

    28. CW

      Mm-hmm.

    29. DS

      ... "Goodbye world, I'm gonna raise a kid for eight years."

    30. CW

      See you later on.

  12. 32:43 – 37:59

    Continuity Bias

    1. CW

      some bits, some parts of me as well. At 17, there was some bits of me that I was just a dick.

    2. DS

      (laughs)

    3. CW

      You know, I was good, I was good in some bits, but I was a total dick in others. This really loops back to the crossroad opportunities in life, right? Where we're talking about we have this momentum which we've built up, we're moving in a direction like a river cutting through rock, and there's this continuity bias. I, I am a musician, writer-

    4. DS

      Right.

    5. CW

      ... podcaster, club promoter, uh, DJ, whatever. I am that thing. And there's this, there's this requirement, this feeling like, "Well, I can't... What, what are the... the new thing? I didn't do the do about the new thing. Like, if I try, if I change, then I'm not, I'm not that thing anymore. That is me."

    6. DS

      Right.

    7. CW

      "That was me, that's where I get my quantifiable metrics of status and success from the people around me, this is what society has put me on a pedestal for. I've had some form of success with this. If I do this new thing, what if it all goes to pot?" You know, I, it doesn't surprise me that all of us sometimes find it challenging to let go of the tether to that balloon.

    8. DS

      Well, let's think about that question, um, you've asked about, "What are you optimizing your life for?"

    9. CW

      Mm-hmm.

    10. DS

      About the difference between existing with an understanding of your values, your goals, your plan, versus just allowing life to, uh, you know, blow your, blow your leaf around. Like, was that, you know... Was that Forrest Gump where that leaf was like-

    11. CW

      Mm-hmm. (laughs)

    12. DS

      That was like the intro to Forrest Gump, right? The little leaf blowing in the wind.

    13. CW

      Yeah.

    14. DS

      But I thought about this with, there can be reasons at stages in your life to make yourself stick with one thing, even if you kind of want to chase every distraction. And then on the other times, there can be times where it's just, it, it's the right time for you to go chase distractions. So, I think about this wonderful rule of thumb of asking yourself what you want now versus what you want most. And I love the, that, the simplicity of that sentence. That what you want now-

    15. CW

      That's a diff- that's a difficult question to a- to answer, sorry. (laughs)

    16. DS

      Well, it's... I think of shallow happy versus deep happy.

    17. CW

      Okay.

    18. DS

      Right? Like, shallow happy is just having the ice cream, deep happy is being proud of yourself for not having the ice cream, right? But most importantly, it's, it comes back to whatever works for you, right? Like, there is no philosophy or approach to life that is inherently right or wrong. You just have to try it and see if it works for you or not. Like, I don't mind holding some beliefs that are completely false if holding that belief works for me right now, if it gets the desired action for me. So, you have to ask yourself, "Well, what does works for you mean," right? Like, what makes you take action? What makes you take the right actions? But maybe for you, for now, at this stage in your life, maybe the right action for you is to stay focused. Or maybe the right action for you at this stage in your life is to open your mind to new inputs and to try new things and to indulge every curiosity. Like, only you know what stage in your life you're in. Like, do you need to keep focusing right now for your current desires in life? Or is it time for you to stop doing the thing you've been doing? You know, no podcast is going to tell you the right answer.

    19. CW

      Mm-hmm.

    20. DS

      But I think that what these conversations, what these podcasts, or even articles and books and whatever inputs we get in the world, are useful for hearing other people's thoughts. It's useful to help you consider another way of being.... but ultimately you need to try it on and see if it works for you in fact, not just in theory.

    21. CW

      Mm. It's interesting as I, as I produce more content on this podcast, I feel myself playing between the prescriptive model of life, you know? We, like I say, we have this li-

    22. DS

      (laughs)

    23. CW

      ... we have this life hacks, um, series, and by no means is that something to live your life by. It's like how to make the best toasted sandwich in a Breville sandwich maker and stuff like that.

    24. DS

      Right.

    25. CW

      You know? It's not, it's not game changing stuff, although they, they're pretty good sandwiches.

    26. DS

      (laughs)

    27. CW

      Um, you know, I, I, I see that side, I see the prescriptive side, you know, the more, um... the, the best sleeping posture-

    28. DS

      (laughs)

    29. CW

      ... how you can scale your business using Google AdWords in blah blah. You know, I see that side but then this nuance is, for me, where all of the interest is. That's where, that's where I really enjoy sinking my teeth into and I think you arrive at a solution which is perfectly curated for you because we are all world experts in us, right?

    30. DS

      Mm-hmm.

  13. 37:59 – 40:52

    Mortality

    1. CW

      Yes. So this leads us onto, uh, another point I wanted to bring up nicely which is our mortality and playing the game of life. So, we have very fleeting time and our existence doesn't last, it doesn't mean much after 50 years' time. Very few people will remember that we were there or that care that we're gone. How does this impact the way that we should view our lives and our occurrences within them?

    2. DS

      (coughs) I have a very tiny answer but then I'm curious to ask why you're asking.

    3. CW

      Mm-hmm.

    4. DS

      Um, 'cause I just never understood people's need for meaning. Right? Like, I just tend to go from desire to desire, from interest to interest, from project to project.

    5. CW

      (laughs)

    6. DS

      Like, I'm, I'm always, always, always, always working towards something. So, that is my meaning in life at any given moment. Like, even if I zoom out, if you were to say, "No Derek, but what's the big picture?"

    7. CW

      (laughs)

    8. DS

      I... then there's a project or a path there too. I can say, "Oh, okay, well in the bigger picture I want to, you know, find interesting thoughts that others haven't considered and share those with the world." And you could say, "Okay, well what's the bigger picture to that?"

    9. CW

      (laughs) I wanna zoom out more.

    10. DS

      I'd say, "Okay, well, I... it honestly just tickles my brain and is viscerally pleasurable to find a new way of looking at things and it's creative and inventive and fun." Um, then you could say, "Yes, but what's the real point of that?"

    11. CW

      Mm-hmm.

    12. DS

      So (laughs) you know, it just... it keeps going. You'd say-

    13. CW

      Yeah.

    14. DS

      ... well, then I'm, I'm growing. I feel that it's like I'm constantly growing and changing and this and that and it's, it's, um, learning more about the world, I'm understanding the world better which makes me happy on a day-to-day basis, the world becomes my playground. Like, at any point you could zoom in and say, "Why are you doing this thing this minute, this hour?" Or zoom out and say, "Why are you doing this thing this decade?" And it always has a purpose, so I don't really understand this mind... or this kind of, this question of saying, "Yes, but what's the meaning of life and it won't even matter in 100 years."

    15. CW

      Mm.

    16. DS

      I think, well... I don't, I don't care. Like... I, I... you know the, that thing of the, um... what are those Tibetan monks that make those elaborate sand drawings and then just, you know?

    17. CW

      Yeah, just get rid.

    18. DS

      Which is fine. Like, I've done so many th-... like, there have been projects that I've worked on for years and then just a month or two before launching I went, "Eh," and chucked it, and it's fine 'cause I was just doing it, I was enjoying it the whole way. Like I wa-... it wasn't a goal. It's a... didn't launch, so what? You know, so that's like, you know, it won't mean anything in 50 years. Well so what if you enjoyed doing it? So I don't know. So let me turn it back on you. Why... what is your thought behind answering or asking that question?

  14. 40:52 – 42:17

    Finding Meaning

    1. CW

      So I think it's twofold. The first one is I think many people don't get to do what they want to do in life and by asking what is the meaning of life, how can I find meaning and purpose in my daily, yearly, decadely existence, they're hoping that someone will prescribe them the steps to get away from doing the things they don't want to do and move toward doing the things they do.

    2. DS

      Hmm.

    3. CW

      And the second thing which I've been thinking about a lot recently to do with this question is, I think a big part of it is a repackaging of a fear of death. I think humans don't like the idea of dying. Unless you've absolutely taken the red pill on stoic philosophy or free will (laughs) whatever it might be-

    4. DS

      (laughs)

    5. CW

      ... there is an innate fear in dying, and previously we might have had that serviced by religion, previously we might have had that serviced by belief in an afterlife or a higher power or whatever it might be-

    6. DS

      (takes a sip of water)

    7. CW

      ... and now as we have an increasingly s- secular society, I think people are trying to find a meaning in their existence right now which is so great that it justifies the fact that one day it's all going to end.

    8. DS

      Hmm.

    9. CW

      How's that as an answer?

    10. DS

      Thank you. That

  15. 42:17 – 43:17

    Finding Happiness

    1. DS

      helps.

    2. CW

      I think that might be it. I genuinely do. I, I, I did a podcast a couple of years ago with, um, a, a guy who was talking about how he thought happiness, people's search for happiness, this proliferation of how to be happy, ten, five steps for your fulfilled life, he, he was adamant that it was just people fearing death and then-

    3. DS

      Hmm.

    4. CW

      ... and trying to run away from it, and I, um... upon reflection I, I can see more and more of that now. Um-Yeah.

    5. DS

      Y- you know what's funny? I consider my written output ... Well, let's just say any of this output. I mean, you know, this conversation's gonna be recorded-

    6. CW

      Mm-hmm.

    7. DS

      ... and kept around. Um, I definitely think in- of all of this stuff in terms of, like, after death. You know, like, I think this is my legacy I'm leaving, all this stuff that I've written. Um (laughs) , Darren Brown in the book called Happy. Did

  16. 43:17 – 45:25

    Life After Death

    1. DS

      you read that?

    2. CW

      I did. I actually got to see him speak about it a couple of weeks ago in London as well. It was great.

    3. DS

      Oh, wow. I wish I would've known about that. Um, I'm a massive fan of his. Uh, just huge. I would ... Whenever people do that fictional kind of, you know, if you could have any person-

    4. CW

      Braun

    5. NA

      Mm-hmm.

    6. DS

      ... ever in history-

    7. CW

      ... or whatever.

    8. DS

      ... living or dead at a dinner party, who would it be? To me, it's just Darren Brown (laughs) .

    9. CW

      (laughs)

    10. DS

      That's it.

    11. CW

      He's a beast.

    12. DS

      Um, eh, no need for Jesus or Mo- Buddha or whatever. No.

    13. CW

      Just give me Darren.

    14. DS

      No Gandhi. Just, just Darren Brown.

    15. CW

      Yep.

    16. DS

      Um, so near the end of his book called Happy, he had a s- such a wonderful, tiny point in passing where he said that your thought patterns are your personality. Like, this is ... The way you think is your personality, and you sharing your thoughts and your personality with your loved ones, or even sharing them publicly like this, um, carries on after you die. So therefore, like, that is the, the life after death, is your personality carries on after you're dead. That's ... You know, it's always funny to me when, uh, say like, George Harrison from The Beatles dies, or somebody like that, or Ray Charles, and people go, "Oh. Oh God, that's so sad." You know, David Bowie or something like that. And I think really, oh, were you waiting for David Bowie's next album? (laughs)

    17. CW

      (laughs)

    18. DS

      Have you bought all of his albums in the last 20 years? They go, "Oh, no." It's like, well then, he's not dead to you. Like, you're enjoying what he did in 1972, so you can carry on enjoying that. He ... Like, David Bowie is not dead for you. Dar- David Bowie is very much alive. Um, it ... you know, same thing with a lotta these, like, famous musicians that were legends, is you weren't buying their current output anyway. You weren't a dear friend of theirs. They weren't stopping over at your house next week for dinner. So what they put out there in the world is completely alive, uh, for you. Like that is the only version of them that you get. And so yeah, I think of this creative output, um, as quite, uh, eternal, at least lasting-

  17. 45:25 – 49:44

    Creative Output

    1. DS

    2. CW

      Transcendent, yeah.

    3. DS

      ... for another couple generations.

    4. CW

      Yeah, yeah, it definite- it definitely is. The, the people that we leave behind, the effect that we have on them, the content we put out, you know, to y- your hell yeah or no concept. You know? Like, how many people has that touched? How many people ...

    5. DS

      (laughs)

    6. CW

      As much as, as much as you don't want them to use it as a heuristic- (laughs)

    7. DS

      (laughs)

    8. CW

      ... um, for life, that they are, so we, we need to accept that. Um, and-

    9. DS

      You know, at the very beginning of the call, you asked, or you mentioned my HyperSimple website.

    10. CW

      Mm-hmm.

    11. DS

      Uh, part of that is because I'm expecting this website to go on 100 years. So who knows what holographic devices beamed into peoples' retinas or implanted in their brains, like, websites will be, uh, used on in the year 2300, but I expect that my site will be around then. So I think people using WordPress and current plugins filled with Google Analytics and JavaScript bullshit is very, very short-sighted. Like, my site's completely ready that if I were to die tomorrow, this site is gonna keep working for couple hundred years 'cause it is just plain HTML and text with absolutely no contemporary tooling that will expire.

    12. CW

      (laughs)

    13. DS

      Um, and that's very much on purpose. Like, everything ... I, I make my site by hand. I don't use any frameworks. I don't use any software. I just type every HTML line b- line by hand. So when you ask, like ... I th- it was funny 'cause you even put the question like, you know, you said something like removing everything or stripping it down, but actually it's the opposite. Since I'm ... I open up a blank text document-

    14. CW

      (laughs)

    15. DS

      ... to create a web page, it's a matter of, like-

    16. CW

      Hmm.

    17. DS

      ... why would I take hours of time to type, you know, loads of unnecessary div tags and JavaScript includes-

    18. CW

      Yeah, yeah.

    19. DS

      ... unless it was absolutely necessary? That's too much typing. It's unnecessary. So no, I just don't put in anything that isn't needed, but a lot of that's because I'm, I'm making a site that's intended to be around for at least 100 years.

    20. CW

      That's hardcore. I like ... I really, really like that. I was gonna ask actually what, uh, code your site was written in. I thought I'd seen something to do with Raspberry or I don't ... I have no idea what-

    21. DS

      No, it's ... You're thinking of Ruby, um-

    22. CW

      That's it.

    23. DS

      I do use the Ruby programming language for a little bit of automation, but, uh, it, it just helps me output static, plain HTML-

    24. CW

      Good.

    25. DS

      ... pages with nothing in it.

    26. CW

      Did, did you originally do your, uh, book summary in, was it plain text, like a notepad file or something? Like the most hard-

    27. DS

      Uh-huh. Still do.

    28. CW

      ... hardcore text version that you're gonna get? Like, it doesn't-

    29. DS

      But-

    30. CW

      ... matter what happens in future, it's always gonna be future-proofed?

  18. 49:44 – 51:11

    Benefits of Working Offline

    1. DS

    2. CW

      Is that just-

    3. DS

      ... working and programming.

    4. CW

      Is that just to give you time to focus, or is there something more symbolic about that? Do you like being off grid in that sort of a way?

    5. DS

      Both. Um, I find there's a wonderful w- relief, a peace and relief when I know that there's no way to contact me. You know, like, my phone is off, the internet is off.

    6. CW

      (laughs)

    7. DS

      I mean, you know, I like the fact that it's like, if there was a real emergency, like, somebody would come bang on my door, you know? But I like being unreachable. It- it's, it's a different thing when you're sitting there focusing on work knowing that a, a little part of your brain knows that there are alerts happening, or at any point, you could just grab your phone and hit Reddit or whatever your fix is. Um, and I like that thing of just not being able to. I'm the kinda guy that I- I don't keep cookies in the house. You know, like, I can't, like, have a box of cookies and then just not eat them. So it's better for me to just not have the cookies in the house, it's better for me to just completely shut off the internet and my brain kind of just goes... (sighs) Like, that's not an option. I really like that. So yeah, I work usually offline, plain text files, et cetera. Yeah.

    8. CW

      Yeah. I couldn't agree more. One of the best lifestyle changes I've made over the last few years has been charging my phone outside of my bedroom. So it means-

    9. DS

      Oh, hell yeah.

    10. CW

      It means my-

    11. DS

      No electronics allowed in the bedroom.

    12. CW

      Yeah.

    13. DS

      Fuck that. It's so unsexy.

  19. 51:11 – 54:53

    No Electronics in the Bedroom

    1. DS

    2. CW

      It is un- that's... Yeah, it is unsexy, and I found-

    3. DS

      (laughs)

    4. CW

      ... um, as soon as I did it, I, I'd start going to sleep in... previously, I remember the old me who, when he couldn't sleep for 15 minutes, would just roll over and go on YouTube, which obviously-

    5. DS

      Right.

    6. CW

      ... extends the time-

    7. DS

      Right.

    8. CW

      ... that you're going to sleep by hours because you're just scrolling down-

    9. DS

      Yep.

    10. CW

      ... this endless cat video portal.

    11. DS

      (laughs)

    12. CW

      Um, and by putting it outside of the room, it's the same as that, right? It's just, it's not there, it's no longer an option, it's like it doesn't exist.

    13. DS

      Yeah. I, yeah, to me, I, I... yeah. It... I- I literally ban electronics from the bedroom. There's nothing there. I- there is a little, uh, a clock by the bed, just a clock. It's one of those, you know, little five-pound clocks that just-

    14. CW

      Mm-hmm.

    15. DS

      ... does nothing but show you the time and that's it. Um, no phones allowed in the bedroom.

    16. CW

      Is it firelight? Is it just candles? Like a- like an old-

    17. DS

      (laughs)

    18. CW

      ... like an old man with a lamp wandering around, gets up-

    19. DS

      I wish. That would be great.

    20. CW

      That would be great.

    21. DS

      Uh, yeah. I- I do have a candle in the bedroom, but you know, it's, um... actually, you know what's kinda cool is that my kid is now eight, and he's been kinda raised this way. So he's not an iPad addict like a lot of kids his age are. He, he actually scoffs at video games. Um, he had a friend two years ago that, um... his next door neighbor, he was like, his, one of his best friends ever, and this kid's dad was always in the basement playing Fortnite or something for just hours, and was, like, a completely absent dad, was just completely not there for the kid, was just, like, grumpy because all he wanted to be doing was playing video games, and he would just never play with his kids. And so it was so interesting that my son saw that, and not just noted it, but mentioned it to me, like, a few different times, like, how sad it was. And so one time we were playing just a little word game of opposites, you know. Wh- what's the opposite of, of music? What's the opposite of a cloud? What's the op-... it's just a little fun-

    22. CW

      What is the opposite of music? (laughs)

    23. DS

      Oh, uh, you, you wanna know my favorite answer?

    24. CW

      Yeah, sure.

    25. DS

      Oh wait, first take a guess. What do you think is the opposite of music?

    26. CW

      Silence?

    27. DS

      No, 'cause silence is part of music. It's an important part. What else could it be?

    28. CW

      (sighs) God. Singing?

    29. DS

      Oh, okay. Um, my f- my favorite answer, the opposite of music is business.

    30. CW

      (laughs) Yeah, okay. Okay.

  20. 54:53 – 59:09

    Achieving Excellence

    1. CW

      it. Um, I wanted to touch on excellence for a minute, because I mentioned it as one of my core values and it's something that we've been talking about a little bit recently. Um, and I wondered how you, how you balance between wanting the best work out of yourself, wanting to produce something which you are proud of and connects with other people and is a, a high representation of your cumulative skills and talents and stuff, with also giving yourself sufficient of a break. And I wondered what, what your thoughts were on excellence. It's something that I see as a core value to my life, but I wondered what your thoughts were on it.

    2. DS

      Hmm. Well, let's look at the micro-example of procrastination. Right? Like, if you look at why people procrastinate, um, it's usually if you're facing something difficult, it's easier to retreat into the safe thing, like surfing the wetter- web or playing video games, instead of uncomfortably facing what needs to be done.

    3. CW

      Mm-hmm.

    4. DS

      So the way to stop procrastination is to catch yourself doing it, to deliberately interrupt it, um, and then go back to doing what you need, wh- d- doing what you know you need to do, no matter how unpleasant it is. And then I think it always gets easier after you begin. So when I think of excellence, I think of, like, a life-sized version of that. Like, if there's something you've always wanted to do, you need to stop wasting time and do it. Um, kind of like I said earlier, like, what, what you want now versus what you want most. Um, if you write out your bucket list, you know, like the things you want to do before you die, I'll bet you could do almost all of them in a few months, you know, m- most of them in just a few weeks. It's usually, like, people's bucket lists are, like, places they want to go and some things they want to do, and then they think, "Well, you know, you, if you just took a couple of months off work, you could do (laughs) two-thirds of that list right now-"

    5. CW

      Mm-hmm.

    6. DS

      "... and be done by next month." And it's just a matter of doing them instead of doing other things, like watching shows, surfing the web, playing video games, or just sitting around on couches hanging out, tasting the local beers. Like it's, um, there are these things that we do, um... I'm sorry, I'm kind of answering your, your excellence questions in a way of, like, "Well, what's the opposite of excellence?"

    7. CW

      We're all enjoying it.

    8. DS

      Uh, it's-

    9. CW

      Keep, let's keep going, Derek. Let's keep deep-

    10. DS

      Procrastination.

    11. CW

      Let's keep diving in.

    12. DS

      Like, the opposite of excellence is giving into, I don't want to call it procrastination, but that, that same thing that triggers procrastination, which is usually, like, you're facing the uncomfortable thing that you know you need to do and so you do the easier relief thing instead. People who choose the easy path in life don't ever get excellence at anything. Like, excellence is usually choosing the more difficult path which gives the greater rewards. It's doing what you know you need to do even if you don't feel like it.

    13. CW

      Mm-hmm.

    14. DS

      I mean, uh, my definition of excellence is tainted by the fact that I, you know, that was in music for 20 formative years of my life, you know. So I think in terms of, like, being an excellent performer, being an excellent writer, being an excellent producer, whatever. So you, you might have a different definition of being a, an excellent gentleman or something like that, that-

    15. CW

      (laughs) No, definitely.

    16. DS

      ... um, could be-

    17. CW

      I'm definitely not that. Not yet.

    18. DS

      I know, I mean, I, I mean that somebody listening to this could have a, a, a different definition where maybe excellence to them is just excellence in their, um, composure every day. Maybe it isn't something you need to practice for 20 years. Maybe it can actually just be in, in the moment. Like, you could just decide right now today to, like, from this moment on, to be excellent and you can achieve that, you know, by just, um, not giving into your temper or, um, stopping drinking or whatever it may be.

  21. 59:09 – 1:16:57

    Precision

    1. CW

      Mm-hmm.

    2. DS

      So, um-

    3. CW

      Yeah, I think it's, um, precision is the word that I like to associate with excellence.

    4. DS

      Huh. Why precision?

    5. CW

      Because precision, for me, is doing the thing that you said that you were going to do, but doing the thing that you mean to do, not doing another thing.

    6. DS

      Mm-hmm.

    7. CW

      It's one of the reasons why I like yourself as a speaker, why I like Ben Shapiro and Sam Harris as a speaker, because the speech is very precise. The number of words that are used are the number of words that are needed. Um, a link back to what you said earlier on about the, the way that people make choices and the kind of life they have, there's that, a meme that everyone will be familiar with, with, which is, "Easy choices, hard life. Hard choices-"

    8. DS

      Right.

    9. CW

      "... easy life."

    10. DS

      Yeah.

    11. CW

      Um, and I think about that. Another thing, I read a really interesting article from Taylor Pearson on procrastination and one of the things that he came up with was he says, "Procrastination exists because people have a fear of failure." They're concerned that they may be not good enough or that they don't have the skills that are required. I certainly think there's an element that he didn't touch on in this bit, which is to do with it's- it's just difficult, there's some inertia to get over, "I have to do a hard thing," and there's something easier floating around, the cookie jar, the, the social media fix.

    12. DS

      Mm-hmm.

    13. CW

      Um, and he has this beautiful quote where he says, um, "Interestingly, sometimes we procrastinate to ensure that we inoculate ourselves from public failure. But the interesting-"

    14. DS

      Mm.

    15. CW

      "... thing is, by procrastinating, we do inoculate ourselves from public failure by assuring ourselves of private failure."

    16. DS

      Hmm. Mm-hmm.

    17. CW

      And I love that. I love the, the reframing of that. It's like, look, like if you do not do this thing, it doesn't matter whether you think you would or would not fail because you're guaranteeing the fact that you will by not starting it.

    18. DS

      Right. Hmm.

    19. CW

      I thought that was a really powerful model, used an interesting way to, um, to loop it back around. But look, Derek-

    20. DS

      Yeah.

    21. CW

      ... I'm, I'm conscious of the fact that I'm taking up your time and it's an evening. I've got, I've got two questions that I want to ask you-

    22. DS

      Okay.

    23. CW

      ... before we finish, if that's okay. First one, what have you changed your mind about recently?

    24. DS

      The, um ... a lot of the things that I said were core values are actually pretty new to me. Maybe that's why they came to mind first when you asked, 'cause I think they're the most interesting because they're the newest to my brain. The stuff that's been in my, you know, value system for 30 years (laughs) I just take for granted and I probably don't even know it's there anymore.

    25. CW

      Mm-hmm.

    26. DS

      Um, but ... acknowledging nuance, looking for not o- deliberately making sure you're not oversimplifying. Um, even though I write succinctly, because I think it's considerate, I don't think truth is succinct. I think truth is very nuanced. Um, memorable sound bites are succinct. (laughs) .

    27. CW

      Mm-hmm.

    28. DS

      Quips and aphorisms are succinct. Uh, e- helping an idea carry further, um, i- you know, succinctness is good to carry ideas. It makes a good ... you know, what, what do you call that in nature when the, those seeds that have like o- um, little barbs on them-

    29. CW

      Oh, like dan- like dandelions? Like little-

    30. DS

      Thank you, yeah. Dandelions or, or bursum. So succinctness is a good tool to help ideas spread and carry, but succinctness is, um, almost the opposite of truth because yeah, you can make catchy slogans that make people go, "Ooh, wow, that's good." But it's just, it's one little ingredient in the truth, um, the truth of things I think is often very nuanced. It's like well, in, in these situations if you're in that stage in your life and for the kind of person you are and the kind of things you want, well then this is true. But if-

Episode duration: 1:16:57

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