DOUGLAS MURRAY | The Price Of Thinking Out Loud | Modern Wisdom Podcast 109

1. 0:00 – 0:56

   Cold open: identity, media overreaction, and the risk of speaking plainly

   1. DMDouglas Murray0:00

      First of all, just because somebody is of a particular group does not mean they're right.

   2. CWChris Williamson0:04

      Piers Morgan gets brought up a few times throughout the book. Is it coincidental or does he just happen to embroil himself in these situations a lot?

   3. DMDouglas Murray0:11

      The references to him are not that obliging, and he's definitely one of those characters who throws himself into things, in his case, with just, you know, glee. The moment when you're integrated really into a society is not when you get anything special, or anything extra, or anything more. The moment when you're really integrated is when you realize you just have to put up with the same shit the rest of us have to put up with. We- we- we're living at a stage where we might be among the first people in human history to have absolutely no explanation for what we're doing here. I'm now going to be accused of biphobia, among all my other many, many crimes. But anyhow, the ridiculous person who complains on the BBC that they are often ridiculed in public, and that's not nice, but I point out, if you're ridiculous, you will be ridiculed.

2. 0:56 – 3:22

   Why write The Madness of Crowds: talking about the topics everyone avoids

   1. CWChris Williamson0:56

      I am joined by Douglas Murray, author of The Madness of Crowds, and bestselling author of The Strange Death of Europe. Douglas, welcome to the show.

   2. DMDouglas Murray1:04

      It's been a great pleasure to join you so far.

   3. CWChris Williamson1:06

      (laughs) We've had a couple of, uh, a couple of technical issues, but got through them fine. Um, and now we get onto the real issues. First things first, Madness of Crowds, your new book, four chapters: women, gay, race, and trans. Each one of those is a nuclear warhead ready to go off underneath my foot.

   4. DMDouglas Murray1:30

      (laughs)

   5. CWChris Williamson1:30

      Um, how, how are we going to be able to navigate this conversation, and how also did you navigate this, uh, without getting blown up?

   6. DMDouglas Murray1:40

      Well, um, I- I don't know. I've survived so far. The book's been (laughs) been out a fortnight, I'm still here.

   7. CWChris Williamson1:47

      Yeah.

   8. DMDouglas Murray1:48

      Um, look, uh, my- my- my view is, is that we- we- we've become, in our societies, really bad at having conversations. Um, we've become very bad at thinking because we can't think out loud, or at least the price of thinking out loud has become potential total career and life destruction. So when people wonder why people don't do it, it's- it's not hard to find the reason. (laughs) Um, I think that for some rea- uh, some reason, in recent years, I noticed that these four issues in particular, there are others, but these four issues in particular were the ones which people just kept on, uh... You know, the moment they nicked the tripwire, they were just detonated. And, uh, I just found that really interesting, also because I think all four issues are unbelievably interesting and, and actually significant. I mean, have significant, uh, um, effects on people's lives and on our societies. So my view is that, uh, um, we've got this strange position in our societies at the moment where the only people who can sort of speak or think out loud are people who don't have any hierarchy above them, that's vulnerable to crowd stampedes and mobs and so on. So those of us who can think aloud, whether we're right or wrong, I don't know, but, uh, sort of have a disproportionate duty to talk and think and write. And so I decided just to take each of the absolute nuclear bomb issues head on and just go jumping on in.

3. 3:22 – 6:22

   The chapters he didn’t write: climate ‘crowd mentality’ and mental health as status

   1. CWChris Williamson3:22

      (laughs) You certainly did. Were there any... I was going to ask you this at the end, but I'm gonna ask you now. Um, were there any chapters that you could have considered adding that you didn't?

   2. DMDouglas Murray3:31

      That's a, that's a very good question. There were, there were two that I could have done that I didn't.

   3. CWChris Williamson3:36

      Okay.

   4. DMDouglas Murray3:36

      One, one was green.

   5. CWChris Williamson3:39

      Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

   6. DMDouglas Murray3:40

      Uh, which, uh, I am, have been, been becoming more and more interested in. Um, and I think that there's, whatever people's views about the, about the nature of climate change and the best way to deal with it and so on, it's, it's clear there is, at this point, an element of, um, crowd mentality that's kicking in. Um, and I suppose the other one that was, that what I could have done, I thought about doing, uh, but decided to put off to another day, was mental health, because I think that mental health, in general is a fascinating, fascinating issue. It's come very fast into the mainstream, and I think that that's sort of, you know, good in all sorts of ways. But there are lots of issues around mental health that I'm very skeptical about. Not that, you know, we don't need to get into all of them, but, uh, I- I- I don't entirely share a lot of the presumptions of the age. And I think that it basically, it has some of the same attributes as the things I'm discussing here, is that you get onto the thing, and you don't know where to correct or... It becomes almost impossible to say, "Stop" at any point. And I tell you, I mean, with the mental health, I'm just not bang on. But one of the ones I noticed a few years ago was that there were certain mental illnesses that people clearly wanted to have-

   7. CWChris Williamson4:57

      Uh-huh.

   8. DMDouglas Murray4:57

      ... and ones they didn't. Well, okay, sorry. Now you've just invited me to jump into-

   9. CWChris Williamson5:02

      Hey, hey.

   10. DMDouglas Murray5:03

       ... a highly new atomic bomb, but I will. Here we go.

   11. CWChris Williamson5:05

       Let's do it.

   12. DMDouglas Murray5:05

       So I noticed, for instance, speaking to doctor friends and everyone, that bipolar, this isn't to say that there aren't people who are bipolar, but that it was a good thing some people thought to have diagnosed.

   13. CWChris Williamson5:21

       Similar to OCD.

   14. DMDouglas Murray5:23

       Right. And the- and what's striking to me is that there are mental health afflictions that are just definitely not the ones that people would want, and they are underdiagnosed by comparison. So schizophrenia, like nobody thinks it's cool to be schizophrenic.

   15. CWChris Williamson5:39

       (laughs)

   16. DMDouglas Murray5:39

       And like, whereas on a date, somebody saying, "And I, you know, have bipolar issues," it's not that everyone loves that, but there'll be some people who'll be like, you know, "That's..." Whereas if you say, "And by the way, I should tell you, I'm, I'm a, a schizophrenic."

   17. CWChris Williamson5:56

       Mm-hmm.

   18. DMDouglas Murray5:57

       It has a different...

   19. CWChris Williamson5:58

       It's the branding, right?

   20. DMDouglas Murray5:59

       Yeah.

   21. CWChris Williamson5:59

       It's, it's people talk about, "I'm OCD, but I'm really only OCD in the kitchen." You know?

   22. DMDouglas Murray6:03

       Right. (laughs)

   23. CWChris Williamson6:04

       Right. Okay, okay.

   24. DMDouglas Murray6:05

       Right, and also the general thing of, "I've got mental health," as if...... as if there's some kind of calling card.

   25. CWChris Williamson6:12

       Yeah.

   26. DMDouglas Murray6:13

       Uh, anyhow, so, uh, yeah, I, I could've done that, but I, I decided to put that off for another day. Um, and it's just, there's an entire book just on that. But-

   27. CWChris Williamson6:22

       Yeah, for sure.

4. 6:22 – 7:47

   Trans and non-binary: contested definitions and the ‘shut up, bigot’ trap

   1. DMDouglas Murray6:22

      But I decided, I decided that the four I'd thought about most, and the four I, I had been digging into most were, yeah, were gay, uh, women, specifically relations between sexes, uh, race, and trans. And in a way the last one of those was, was the most interesting for me, because it's the one that we've been thinking about for the least amount of time.

   2. CWChris Williamson6:43

      Mm-hmm.

   3. DMDouglas Murray6:44

      And therefore, which I would argue we have run furthest and worst, uh, without having much questioning actually. And-

   4. CWChris Williamson6:52

      Removed from reality the most would you say?

   5. DMDouglas Murray6:54

      Y- yeah, well just that things get w- sort of waved by in the general discourse, which I, I don't think I necessarily buy. And, and, and, uh, I mean the one that's come up in recent days again thank- thanks to Sam Smith as being non-binary. And I, I just, I don't think there's any such thing. And, um, and, and, uh, it, on that occasion it's, it's not for me to prove that there isn't. It's for people who say they are non-binary to prove to me that, tell, well no, just to tell me what it is, and they can't. They don't. They just say, "Shut up, bigot." And I'm not interested in that mode of discourse, so.

   6. CWChris Williamson7:28

      Regardless of whether you think that argument does or doesn't have credence, it shouldn't be news. I think everyone should be able to agree. Like, that was so all over my Twitter that I just logged out for the rest of the evening.

   7. DMDouglas Murray7:43

      Yeah, yeah, yeah.

   8. CWChris Williamson7:44

      It's like, it, it is not a story.

5. 7:47 – 12:37

   When “the news” becomes re-education: non-stories, overcorrections, and virtue signaling

   1. DMDouglas Murray7:47

      Yeah, well, um, the news websites are partly responsible for a lot of this. There, there's a, there's a feeling I explain as you know in The Madness of Crowds where I, I say, there are some times when you feel the news isn't the news. It's about something else, it's some kind of re-education program. I notice this, um, because I happen to be gay, uh, I could probably say this, where some heterosexuals saying it mightn't sound so good. But there are days when I wonder how does it feel like to read the news if you're heterosexual? Because, um, there's so much about the gay thing. I mean, there was a, um, very, very minor celebrity who had married his boyfriend, and it was front page news on the BBC website. He's a guy of such little consequence that, I mean, he's not even a well-known reality TV star. And it was like, why are you telling us about him other than to say gay wedding, gay wedding, gay wedding?

   2. CWChris Williamson8:37

      Mm-hmm.

   3. DMDouglas Murray8:38

      And, and that sort of stuff worries me because I think, well, there, that's, there, there's stuff like that which I regard as being what I call the, the possible over-corrections where to make up for something that was wrong in the past, i.e. homophobia, you over-correct. And I think that's happening a lot of the cases I write about in this book, a lot of the subjects I write about in this book. And I'm really interested in it because then the question is, if you've over-corrected how would you know, and how would you stop, and how would you get back to equal? Which is pretty much all I'm interested in.

   4. CWChris Williamson9:11

      (laughs) Yeah, it's, uh, you are right. Some of the examples that you use in the book, like, in the business section of the New York Times-

   5. DMDouglas Murray9:19

      Yeah.

   6. CWChris Williamson9:19

      ... Japanese, the, the Japanese as a cultural approach to gay, gay people-

   7. DMDouglas Murray9:24

      Yeah.

   8. CWChris Williamson9:24

      ... in th- in the workplace.

   9. DMDouglas Murray9:25

      Yeah. The main, the main, the first two pages of the business section of the New York Times are about a gay businessman in Japan who came out and it wasn't a problem because they're not all that homophobic in Japa- Japanese workplace. Okay? That is the definition, I know from being a journalist myself, that is the definiti- definition of a non-story.

   10. CWChris Williamson9:41

       (laughs)

   11. DMDouglas Murray9:41

       Something happened in another country and nothing happened as a consequence.

   12. CWChris Williamson9:45

       (laughs)

   13. DMDouglas Murray9:45

       It's like, that's not news, that's the opposite of news. Have you heard we've got a Canadian who doesn't like cats? Uh, anything happen? No.

   14. CWChris Williamson9:53

       No. Cats were fine about it, and now everyone's got on with their day. Yeah. It's, it's bizarre. That, uh, I don't really know, uh, I, I don't really know sort of where to go with that. Y- you are right though. The, the fact this over-correction, that we're potentially moving towards a, a situation where gay stories are being shoe-horned into the press.

   15. DMDouglas Murray10:13

       Yeah. That's right.

   16. CWChris Williamson10:14

       One of the, one of the things that that instantly does is it down-regulates the virtue or the integrity of any ach- real achievements which are made by people that are gay.

   17. DMDouglas Murray10:24

       Right.

   18. CWChris Williamson10:24

       The same, the same thing as calling everyone a Nazi.

   19. DMDouglas Murray10:27

       Yeah, yeah, yeah.

   20. CWChris Williamson10:27

       It's like if you call everyone a Nazi it loses its power. The same thing...

   21. DMDouglas Murray10:30

       That is-

   22. CWChris Williamson10:30

       If, if, if a gay, if a gay person in Japan being gay is worthy of being in the news, then what happens when something really newsworthy happens?

   23. DMDouglas Murray10:38

       Right.

   24. CWChris Williamson10:38

       It's like, "Oh, well, whatever mate." Yeah, yeah.

   25. DMDouglas Murray10:39

       It's, it's, it's like the thing of first woman or first X of race in a particular role.

   26. CWChris Williamson10:44

       Yeah.

   27. DMDouglas Murray10:45

       There are definitely times when it makes sense, but there are times when, you know, it's, uh, I say this with the women chapter, so, um, there were times in recent years when you wouldn't have thought that, for instance, in Britain we lived in a country with a female head of state, a female prime minister, a female head of the Supreme Court and so on. And, and just you'd thought we lived in some Margaret Atwood novel judging by the way in which it's being written about. And you, you sort, yeah, it's not, like, we have women inside and we know that. Like, what are you doing other than at some level in the media, and I show how the tech companies have done this too, in some way sort of correcting the public, yes. Telling us or, or te- saying, this is another way of looking at it, saying, "I dare you."

   28. CWChris Williamson11:40

       Mm-hmm.

   29. DMDouglas Murray11:41

       "I dare you to mind."

   30. CWChris Williamson11:43

       Yeah.
6. 12:37 – 17:19

   Piers Morgan as culture-war lightning rod and the power of TV humiliation clips

   1. CWChris Williamson12:37

      Absolute sort of, uh, uh, domain of competence. Um, I, I, I was gonna wait for this as well, but I've wanted to ask this, this question as well since reading the book. Piers Morgan, right? Gets brought (laughs) gets brought up a few times throughout the book. Is it coincidental or does he just happen to embroil himself in these situations a lot? What the fuck's going on with Piers Morgan?

   2. DMDouglas Murray12:58

      Um, that's a very interesting point. I, I actually saw-

   3. CWChris Williamson13:00

      (laughs)

   4. DMDouglas Murray13:00

      ... Piers Morgan this morning because I was doing-

   5. CWChris Williamson13:02

      Did you?

   6. DMDouglas Murray13:02

      ... his morning show. And he, uh, his wife wrote a very nice column mentioning my book the other day and I thought, "Okay, she's read it. I wonder if he has?" Because yes, the references to him are not that obliging.

   7. CWChris Williamson13:14

      (laughs)

   8. DMDouglas Murray13:15

      And unfortunately, this morning, I went with a copy of the book and at the end of the show, just as we'd finished recording, uh, Piers said, uh, "Is that one going to Spur, Douglas?" And I said, "Uh, yeah." "Can I have it?" And I said, "Yeah. No, of course." And I thought, "Oh, maybe I should have taken that page out." But never-the-y... (laughs)

   9. CWChris Williamson13:30

      (laughs)

   10. DMDouglas Murray13:30

       I didn't really. No, but he, um, yeah, he, it, it is actually a coincidence in a way because, I, I mean, he's obviously r- whether one agrees or disagrees or likes or dislikes or whatever, I mean, he's definitely one of those characters who throws himself into things. In his case, with just, you know, glee. But it does mean sometimes that pe- people like that are sometimes there at interesting cultural turning point moments. And I think two, the two key times he comes up in the book, I don't want anyone viewing this to think this is like a biography of Piers Morgan or whatever.

   11. CWChris Williamson14:00

       It's, no, it's, I can, I can assure them that it definitely isn't. No, yeah.

   12. DMDouglas Murray14:03

       That you know, but, but the two times he comes up, uh, um, it's because, yeah, he's sort of, he's thrown himself right into the middle of a culture war and something happened as a consequence. And, and it is interesting, there are figures, sort of slight lightning rods for good and ill who you notice, yeah, crop up. Um, but I, I, I'm, um... One of the things I'm proud of about this book is that I tried to do everything from looking at the philosophy and deep ideas that caused some of the things we're going through right up to, you know, what happened on The View or Good Morning Britain yesterday. Because it's quite easy for people who love books as, as I do to think books create the world, or, you know, massively influence the world. They, they do have an influence, but so does television, so does pop music, so does, so does rap, so does, like-

   13. CWChris Williamson14:52

       Twitter.

   14. DMDouglas Murray14:53

       ... Twitter. And, and really the, the interesting challenge, which I hope I, I, I managed to rise, uh, to the occasion of, uh, was to try to encompass all of that. Say, you know, this is the era we are in, and this is the madness we are going through. And to do that on everything from the level of the deep, deep ideas, all the way through to these television events, for instance, which have a massive impact on the culture. You know, if somebody is destroyed live on air-

   15. CWChris Williamson15:24

       Mm-hmm.

   16. DMDouglas Murray15:24

       ... for not saying the thing that nobody said till yesterday, everyone learns. Everyone learns.

   17. CWChris Williamson15:33

       You're right. It's the Buzzfeed 15 second clip, "Piers Morgan destroys homophobic bigot live on air."

   18. DMDouglas Murray15:42

       Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

   19. CWChris Williamson15:42

       Um, there was a, a, a guy who was doing gay conversion therapy. He's one of the examples-

   20. DMDouglas Murray15:47

       That's right.

   21. CWChris Williamson15:47

       ... in the book. Um, and, uh, one of the things he, I thought was very interesting, you have this quite balanced view, you went to go and see his particular film, and Piers Morgan had annihilated this guy live on air.

   22. DMDouglas Murray16:00

       Yeah.

   23. CWChris Williamson16:00

       But this particular individual wasn't working with anyone who didn't come to him, wasn't saying that it was, he wasn't making a value judgment-

   24. DMDouglas Murray16:07

       Yeah.

   25. CWChris Williamson16:07

       ... on gay or not gay. He was simply-

   26. DMDouglas Murray16:08

       That's right.

   27. CWChris Williamson16:08

       ... offering people a service for, that, that wanted to become straight. And-

   28. DMDouglas Murray16:12

       Yeah.

   29. CWChris Williamson16:14

       ... you're totally right. This, that was the little ball in the air, and Piers Morgan just came in and hit the bigot button.

   30. DMDouglas Murray16:19

       Yeah.
7. 17:19 – 20:12

   Why tolerate views we hate: Mill, error-correction, and avoiding dogma

   1. CWChris Williamson17:19

      Why, why do we need to be tolerant of other people's views? Why do we-

   2. DMDouglas Murray17:23

      Well, the main, the main reasons are-

   3. CWChris Williamson17:25

      (laughs)

   4. DMDouglas Murray17:25

      ... the classical reasons for it that, certainly in the tradition of English liberty is, is, which is sort of the one that became the, the idea in America as well, is that, um, you need to hear other views. In fact, you, you specifically need to hear the, the views which are the minority views. Because first, basically the first reason is that you might be wrong. And if you are wrong, you want to have access to the correction to your error. Um, and even if you're not completely wrong, you might be wrong in part. Which it w- I mean, my own experience in life is that that's happened quite often. I, I've, I've had a presumption, and, and, and quite often whether that, that whole process, it's inevitable that we don't like to do it because...It's, it's more work, uh, to, to correct your opinion when you're wrong. I mean, there's been fascinating studies, there was a fascinating study at Harvard that Cass Sunstein and others did a few years ago that showed that, you know, we might think that when somebody's wrong, uh, uh, literally has the wrong view, that- that- that it's a fact they are wrong about-

   5. CWChris Williamson18:29

      Mm-hmm.

   6. DMDouglas Murray18:30

      ... and they meet the correction to the view, w- we might think, we tend to think that- that you would just say, "Oh, I see. I didn't- didn't realize I was wrong." But as anyone who's had a boyfriend or a girlfriend for a long time will know, uh, often it doesn't work like that. Um-

   7. CWChris Williamson18:45

      (laughs) They dig their heels in even harder.

   8. DMDouglas Murray18:46

      You don't immediately say, "Darling, I... God, I absolutely see your point. Thank you."

   9. CWChris Williamson18:51

      Yep.

   10. DMDouglas Murray18:52

       You know, you... So, and actually, the- the- the studies show that people double down on their error.

   11. CWChris Williamson18:57

       Mm-hmm.

   12. DMDouglas Murray18:57

       But anyhow, my point is- is that that's the first reason. You might be wrong, and you should correct it if- if you are actually wrong. It's for your own good, uh, as well as the good of society that you- that you don't go around in error. But the second reason, actually, the second broad reason, which is really interesting is- is that even if you're- you're not in error, and the other person is, being reminded of it helps you r- keep your own knowledge of why you're- you're in the right, right.

   13. CWChris Williamson19:24

       Mm-hmm.

   14. DMDouglas Murray19:25

       So it's like a- a sharp... Like a knife sharpening. Uh, well, we're not allowed to use metaphors anymore, are we? But- but- but, uh-

   15. CWChris Williamson19:31

       (laughs)

   16. DMDouglas Murray19:32

       So scrap that. That's obviously an incitement to kill or something, but...

   17. CWChris Williamson19:35

       Yeah.

   18. DMDouglas Murray19:35

       But anyhow, but- but- but- but it- it's a way to keep our brains honed to- to know that we don't slip into dogma. That's what John Stuart Mill said about it, that we a- we avoid slipping into dogma. Uh, and the- well, the reason why it's worth not slipping into dogma is just that you end up becoming lazy and unable to defend things you really need to defend.

   19. CWChris Williamson19:54

       Mm-hmm.

   20. DMDouglas Murray19:55

       And I think our society is... In fact, I say this in the... I quote G.K. Chesterton as well as Nicki Minaj in the epigraph, to say, um, to say that our- our era is, I mean, is filled with dogmas, and we pretend it isn't, but it really is. I mean, there's a lot of dogmas in our society.

8. 20:12 – 25:24

   Collapse of grand narratives: identity politics as substitute meaning

   1. CWChris Williamson20:12

      One of the things that you bring up right at the beginning is that you say that the grand narratives that we used to, uh, identify with, the- the root cause of this crowd derangement is the collapse of all of our grand narratives.

   2. DMDouglas Murray20:25

      Yes.

   3. CWChris Williamson20:26

      Why- why has that enabled this- this broader situation that we're seeing in front of us? Because this crosses all of the... It's enabled the gay, the trans, the- the- the race discussions-

   4. DMDouglas Murray20:35

      Yeah.

   5. CWChris Williamson20:35

      ... to be so, sort of visceral.

   6. DMDouglas Murray20:38

      So m- my, my feeling is that we, uh... Look, there's something incredibly deep has happened underneath our societies, which we're in... If not in denial about, we don't face up to, which is... We- we're living at a stage where we might be among the first people in human history to have absolutely no explanation for what we're doing here, and no story to tell about what we should do, other than... I don't know. There are narratives. They're pretty weak ones. I don't know. Accumulate as much money as you can and enjoy yourself. There's one.

   7. CWChris Williamson21:13

      (laughs) Gain some Twitter followers.

   8. DMDouglas Murray21:15

      Yeah, it's not, it's not the worst idea in human history, but it's a fairly shallow one. Uh, as I say, I mean, we're... This- this paucity of ideas, and I say it's a... It's obviously the consequence of the collapse of religion, which is pretty much an irreversible issue now, and the collapse of organized religion, the collapse of all major political ideologies in the 20th century, other than the present structure, which is, you know, broadly a liberal state of a capitalist economy. Uh, and I think that in the last 10 years, basically in the wake of the 2008 financial crash, a lot of confidence, self-confidence was lost in capitalism.

   9. CWChris Williamson21:56

      Mm-hmm.

   10. DMDouglas Murray21:56

       Which is, I think, a disaster in all sorts of ways, because it's, um, you know, as, like, Churchill famously said of de- famously said about democracy, it's the worst system apart from all of the others. And, uh, and we've... So we're in this strange position where we've really run out of things to believe in, and we sort of pretend that, "Well, just find your own meaning in the world." And that's one of the reasons why, as I say, I mean, I think that it's very understandable that people then get caught up in- in new, uh, ideologies of this. And my view is that the social justice movement, intersectionality, all this stuff, is a version of... It's a- it's a way to give life meaning. And the problem with it, among other things, is that all of these things, equal rights for women, equal rights for sexual minorities, equal rights for racial minorities, and so on, are very good things, and they are the products of liberal rights. But we've tried to... Instead of being the products of them, it's like we've flipped the whole bar stool around and trying to sit on the products of the right... And it- it doesn't support itself, because as I- as I show in each chapter, each of these... Not only are each of these things, gay, relations between sexes, race, and trans, not only are they going against each other in very interesting ways, uh, trans against women, trans against gay, and so on. But- but they each in themselves are more unstable than we're willing to admit. So for instance, we still don't know very much about being gay. We don't know quite what causes it. And there's been a study that's just come out since my book came out, which sort of vindicates what I say, which is, it's a bit more, it's a bit more complex than we- than we- we pretend. Relations between the sexes, uh, and our attitudes as a society towards women, in particular, are very contradictory, and we pretend they're not. So we pretend that women are simultaneously exactly the same as men and magically better on occasion.

   11. CWChris Williamson23:58

       (laughs)

   12. DMDouglas Murray24:01

       Uh, we just decided to hold that idea. And with race, we are very, very unsure, for good reasons, for good reasons, because who wants to open that up, really? Well, a lot of people, it turns out, but...... i, I explain why I think that's gonna be risky. And then you have the trans one, and that's just really, really uncertain, and really, really, uh, uh, not something we know enough about, or certainly not as much as we're pretending. And, and so I, um, just was saying, let's lean on all of these things a little less. Let's not make everything about these identity issues. Let's, let's try not to lean as much as we are on them, and try to get back to what I thought was the aim, which was equal, not better, equal, and focusing on the content of people's character.

   13. CWChris Williamson24:58

       You make a, a, an analogy between Martin Luther King and his, the content of someone's character-

   14. DMDouglas Murray25:04

       Yeah.

   15. CWChris Williamson25:04

       ... not the color of their skin-

   16. DMDouglas Murray25:06

       Yeah.

   17. CWChris Williamson25:07

       ... which has, that, i- if there was a bar stool analogy to be used, it's that now, right? That it is-

   18. DMDouglas Murray25:11

       Right.

   19. CWChris Williamson25:11

       ... all about the color of someone's skin.

   20. DMDouglas Murray25:13

       Yeah, yeah.

   21. CWChris Williamson25:13

       And then on top of that, uh, are they gay? And are they-

   22. DMDouglas Murray25:17

       Yeah, yeah, yeah.

   23. CWChris Williamson25:17

       ... are they, did they use to be a man? And then-

   24. DMDouglas Murray25:19

       Yeah, yeah, yeah.

   25. CWChris Williamson25:20

       ... how many more of these can we layer on top? That's how-

   26. DMDouglas Murray25:22

       Right.

   27. CWChris Williamson25:23

       ... the bar stool is being flipped, right?

9. 25:24 – 30:23

   From equality to overcorrection: moral insight by identity and the new hierarchy

   1. DMDouglas Murray25:24

      Yeah, and I, uh, I think this is just all profoundly dangerous. It's profoundly dangerous.

   2. CWChris Williamson25:30

      Why?

   3. DMDouglas Murray25:30

      Well, because first of all, just because somebody is of a particular group does not mean they're right. Or indeed, part- or it doesn't always by any means, if, if ever, mean that they have a particular right to be heard. It's true that you wouldn't want a conversation w- w- w- between 100 people about women and none of them to be women. It would be... Well, the Catholic Church has tried that (laughs) 　 no matter. But, uh, more than 100 (?) . But, but generally speaking, we recognize that, th- th- that, people do bring contributions, right? We're just not entirely sure what, and what the, uh, what the particular mix is that's needed. But nevertheless, there isn't a particular virtue you bring by being of a characteristic. Uh, there's a very brilliant, young American writer who happens to be black called Coleman Hughes who, who mentioned this in a, uh, an essay a little while ago, and I quote him in the introduction, that he said that when he was at university quite r- very recently, I think maybe he still is in America, some of his contemporaries treated him as if he had a special moral insight from being black. Well, see, some black people obviously will have special moral insights, just like people of all sorts of backgrounds and skin colors will, but, but just being black in itself doesn't, doesn't bring that. Uh, in the same way that we all know, I mean, just because you're a man or just because you're a woman does not mean you have a magical virtue or insight. There will be things you notice and there will be things you can see, and... But, but that's sort of... It's, that all depends on the individual. It's like if you said, "I just think that women are so clever." What's that, you say, "Wha-"

   4. CWChris Williamson27:11

      "What do you mean?" Yeah.

   5. DMDouglas Murray27:12

      "What do you mean?" It's like saying, "I think men are all clever." Like, what, uh, what are you talking about? There's just, there's individuals, you, I point you to plenty of brilliant women, and I can point you to plenty of brilliant men and pl- plenty of brilliant black people as well as plenty of brilliant white people, but why would you be doing these categories? Uh, what do you think they bring?

   6. CWChris Williamson27:32

      Mm-hmm.

   7. DMDouglas Murray27:33

      And I thi- I think in each of them, it's very strange. It's almost like we s- in, in, in the course of my lifetime actually, I've only just turned 40, but in the course of my lifetime, we've... It's almost as if on these things, we've gone past equal and over-corrected slightly.

   8. CWChris Williamson27:47

      Mm-hmm.

   9. DMDouglas Murray27:48

      As if because men, and particularly white men, have had, you know, uh, uh, uh, certain advantages, I think there's a lot to dispute in that interpretation, but that for a bit, we'll be mean to them. Like, we'll make white people feel a bit of the racism that some of them have expressed in the past to other people-

   10. CWChris Williamson28:12

       Mm-hmm.

   11. DMDouglas Murray28:13

       ... in order to make up for the past. Um...

   12. CWChris Williamson28:16

       This compensatory mechanism.

   13. DMDouglas Murray28:17

       To compensate, and, um, if, i- i- it's the same thing with it's not enough that women are equal. We should also punish men a bit. And on each of these, I think, well, w- w- uh, there are a set of questions, aren't there? W- how would you know when you've over-corrected? Who would announce it? What would the signs be, and how would you get back to equal? And are you sure you could? Are you absolutely sure you would know how to orient yourself? It, b- I mean, there being by that point, among others, careers and jobs and pensions-

   14. CWChris Williamson28:52

       Mm-hmm.

   15. DMDouglas Murray28:52

       ... of people who are very happy with the over-correction.

   16. CWChris Williamson28:55

       Mm-hmm. Yeah, there's a, uh, uh, a quote from your, uh, interview with Candace Owens where one of you says that, um, after a while, when, I think she's referring to black people, and she says, "After a while, being treated as special as black makes being treated normal feel like, uh, uh, being undervalued."

   17. DMDouglas Murray29:13

       Right. I had a, um, I had an Irish immigrant, uh, friend, uh, who, one of my best friends, died some years ago, who you had a beautiful phrase on this. He's, he used to say, uh, about integration, uh, he used to say, uh, "The moment when you're integrated, really, into a society is not when you get anything special or anything extra or anything more. The moment when you're really integrated is when you realize you just have to put up with the same shit the rest of us have to put up with."

   18. CWChris Williamson29:40

       (laughs)

   19. DMDouglas Murray29:41

       I like that.

   20. CWChris Williamson29:42

       But it's indifference, isn't it? It's the same thing as we do-

   21. DMDouglas Murray29:45

       Yeah.

   22. CWChris Williamson29:45

       ... we do a relationship series, and we were talking about how to get over someone. And I was saying-

   23. DMDouglas Murray29:50

       Right.

   24. CWChris Williamson29:50

       ... that the ultimate, ultimate conclusion to a relationship and any residual feelings for your ex isn't hatred or resentment. It's indifference. It's seeing them in the street-

   25. DMDouglas Murray30:02

       Right.

   26. CWChris Williamson30:02

       ... and feeling nothing. Uh, that, you know, that, that, to me, is completing it. Some people may be able to actually continue on with nice memories of their ex, but that indifference, that, again, you're seen just judged on the basis of your character. So, I want to, I want to jump onto the women thing, because the Nicki Ni- Nicki Minaj quotes throughout just had me, li- I, I absolutely loved that. But before we did that-

   27. DMDouglas Murray30:23

       Mm-hmm.

10. 30:23 – 36:41

    LGBT coalition tensions and the trans issue: conflicting aims and medicalization of youth

    1. CWChris Williamson30:23

       ... I only realized...... upon reading this book, 'cause I haven't looked that much into LGBT recent history. When did gay rights get, like, amalgamated in with LGBT? And does that-

    2. DMDouglas Murray30:39

       Yeah.

    3. CWChris Williamson30:39

       ... it, is there a... I don't know whether you know. You're not, not exactly like tip of the spear of like the gay movement or whatever. It doesn't, not-

    4. DMDouglas Murray30:45

       No.

    5. CWChris Williamson30:46

       ... not that you're the representative.

    6. DMDouglas Murray30:48

       (laughs)

    7. CWChris Williamson30:48

       But I wonder, I wonder how gay people feel about having to have their-

    8. DMDouglas Murray30:53

       Hm.

    9. CWChris Williamson30:53

       ... uh, movement adopted a- amongst this broader group of people, because it used to be gay rights. And I remember-

    10. DMDouglas Murray30:58

        Yeah.

    11. CWChris Williamson30:58

        ... I'm 31, I remember when it was gay rights.

    12. DMDouglas Murray31:00

        Right.

    13. CWChris Williamson31:00

        I don't remember when it became LGBT.

    14. DMDouglas Murray31:03

        Uh, well, uh, uh, it's, uh, the brief history is what, um, uh, um, Dave Chappelle refers to as the alphabet people in his recent show. Um, uh, is... He, he's actually, he, he has a very good summary of what I, part of what I say in the gay chapter. Basically, the gays, uh, and the lesbians got together, and they didn't have much in common other than the fight for, uh, uh, um, lesbian and gay rights.

    15. CWChris Williamson31:30

        Other than the fact that none of them were interested in each other.

    16. DMDouglas Murray31:33

        Yes.

    17. CWChris Williamson31:33

        (laughs)

    18. DMDouglas Murray31:33

        I mean, it's, it's a really... I love this sort of presentation of the LGBT community as if like the gays and the lesbians never meet. They have nothing-

    19. CWChris Williamson31:42

        (laughs)

    20. DMDouglas Murray31:42

        ... nothing to say to each other.

    21. CWChris Williamson31:44

        (laughs)

    22. DMDouglas Murray31:45

        And in my opinion, my experience, the lesbians all find the gays ridiculous, because they think they're essentially, um, sort of silly and obsessed with sex and lots more. And the gays think the lesbians are kind of dowdy and boring.

    23. CWChris Williamson32:03

        (laughs)

    24. DMDouglas Murray32:03

        And that's the... I'm not saying this is my view, of course.

    25. CWChris Williamson32:07

        Oh, no. I just... I love the-

    26. DMDouglas Murray32:09

        I'm purely stretching it.

    27. CWChris Williamson32:09

        ... I love the interplay of the politics. It's great.

    28. DMDouglas Murray32:11

        So anyway, but the point is, is that no one ever talks about this, but basically, the L, the Ls and the Gs didn't get on at all really ever and had, they had nothing in common. And then the Bs came along and, and nobody quite believed the Bs existed.

    29. CWChris Williamson32:22

        (laughs)

    30. DMDouglas Murray32:22

        And I think there's still a lot of doubt about that-
11. 36:41 – 55:07

    Nicki Minaj, ‘impossible demands,’ and the collapse of flirting and sexual etiquette

    1. CWChris Williamson36:41

       It's great. Um, I wanna move o- I wanna move on to Nicki Minaj, just 'cause-

    2. DMDouglas Murray36:46

       Go on.

    3. CWChris Williamson36:46

       ... she fa- she just f- uh, first off, she fascinates me. Second, she appears a number of times in the book. But (coughs) you have this beautiful, this beautiful quote, which I think hit on something that I've seen and not known what it was. Uh, "Women can be as sexual as they like, but they cannot be sexualized, and heaven help any man who responds."

    4. DMDouglas Murray37:05

       Yeah.

    5. CWChris Williamson37:05

       Um, could you just take us through that little, the Nicki Minaj video thing that happens before? Because it's, it, it absolutely strikes at the heart of what I felt as a, you know, a young single man for quite a while.

    6. DMDouglas Murray37:16

       Mm. Yeah. I, I, um, I'm really interested in these things in our age which are basically impossible demands. Um, the most obvious one is, that I write about, is the, the insistence that, th- there's, there's this insistence that goes, "You have to understand me," and simultaneously says, "You will never understand me." Yeah. The same person-

    7. CWChris Williamson37:43

       (laughs)

    8. DMDouglas Murray37:43

       ... can do both of those-

    9. CWChris Williamson37:44

       Yeah.

    10. DMDouglas Murray37:44

        ... all the time. And we have that everywhere in our society. Now, there are other wo- uh, things of just impossible demands. For instance, uh, I say at one point, I cite a ridiculous person who complains on the BBC that they are often ridiculed in public. And that's not nice, but I point out, if you're ridiculous, you will be ridiculed. Like, y- you can't escape it, other than by not being ridiculous. And my favorite impossible demand is the one that you just hit on there, which is the, the demand that is currently just very uncomfortably in the culture in relation to the relations between the sexes, which is, yeah, women, women are allowed to be as sexual as they want, as sexy as they want, but must not be sexualized. And this, as I point out, is not possible. Now, does this mean that men can do whatever they want? Obviously not. Obviously not. And you see, this is one of the conversations that's so hard to have, because somebody always leaps in and goes, "Oh, I suppo- so I suppose y- y- y- you're just apologizing for rape."

    11. CWChris Williamson38:51

        Victim blaming.

    12. DMDouglas Murray38:51

        You know, "Oh, I suppo- so you think women should be raped?" No, there are gradations between total chastity and rape, you know?

    13. CWChris Williamson38:59

        (laughs)

    14. DMDouglas Murray38:59

        That's how we're here.

    15. CWChris Williamson39:03

        (laughs)

    16. DMDouglas Murray39:06

        (laughs) Otherwise, we wouldn't have Skype, we wouldn't have you, we wouldn't have me-

    17. CWChris Williamson39:12

        Yeah. (laughs)

    18. DMDouglas Murray39:13

        ... with all the nice people watching.

    19. CWChris Williamson39:14

        Just chastity and rape. (laughs)

    20. DMDouglas Murray39:18

        (laughs) But, but, it's a sort of, it's a sort of dementing, you know, w- we don't allow ourselves to have this conversation. And my point is, none of this means that men can do what they want, but if a woman is entering the sex game-

    21. CWChris Williamson39:31

        Mm-hmm.

    22. DMDouglas Murray39:31

        ... by being highly sexualized, then, you know, and I'm, I'm talking about... The reason I give the Nicki Minaj example is because it's, it's so overtly sexual.

    23. CWChris Williamson39:40

        Mm-hmm.

    24. DMDouglas Murray39:41

        And, and I'm particularly interested in this video of Anaconda. And by the way, the Audible version of my book I read myself. And it means that I read-

    25. CWChris Williamson39:48

        I have to read the lyrics.

    26. DMDouglas Murray39:50

        I read the Nicki Minaj lyrics.

    27. CWChris Williamson39:51

        Oh, that is amazing. Right?

    28. DMDouglas Murray39:52

        And somebody has already put it into a video on YouTube.

    29. CWChris Williamson39:55

        And cut the music over the top of it?

    30. DMDouglas Murray39:56

        Yeah, yeah, yeah.
12. 55:07 – 1:01:33

    How to move forward: reject zero-sum identity games and aim for ambitious lives

    1. CWChris Williamson55:07

       What do we do to move forward then?

    2. DMDouglas Murray55:09

       Several things. The first thing is we have to realize what's going on and, like, ju- just get out of it. We have to get out of this. We have to get out of this zero-sum game, particularly the zero-sum game whereby in order for, we think, for women to do better, men have to do worse. Or for gay people to thrive, straight people have to do worse. Or for Black people to thrive, white people have to do worse. We've got to get out of this. This is just so unhealthy.

    3. CWChris Williamson55:38

       Mm-hmm.

    4. DMDouglas Murray55:39

       It's, it's, um, waste of individual life, and it's a terrible opportunity cost for society because none of it is fixable is my view. You know, there are things you can do worse and there are things you can do better, but we're never gonna fix it. It ... There's never going to be the, uh, lovely interlocking nirvana that means that we all move to some perfect state. It's just not the case. So what should we be doing? And this is the really ... This is, this is the thing. And I know, I think that a lot of clever people, and particularly a lot of, uh, people who've had certain advantages in their lives, are helped through this and they know how to get through this era. I give very exa- various examples of this. Um, uh, the sort of cuttlefish phenomenon among others. But my point is, is that there are people who've worked it out. And I'd quite like their knowledge that, among other things, a lot of this is bullshit, to be more widely understood, because we need to get out the other side of this in larger numbers. Now my view is that this is, this is ... because it's partly just something f- for people to do, it's a, it's a lifestyle choice of its own, and a hobby and a religion among other things, it's worth thinking, "What, what, what should we be doing then if we're not doing this?" But let me put it this way. I mean, imagine if we actually solved the identity politics thing, which as I say is not gonna happen. And, uh, what would it look like? It would look like us saying, "It's great. I've worked out where I am in the hierarchy this morning, uh, and I'm allowed to speak between 11:30 and 11:32."

    5. CWChris Williamson57:20

       (laughs)

    6. DMDouglas Murray57:20

       And you do that for some decades and then you die.

    7. CWChris Williamson57:23

       (laughs)

    8. DMDouglas Murray57:24

       Now I'm not up for that. And I trust you aren't either.

    9. CWChris Williamson57:29

       No.

    10. DMDouglas Murray57:30

        Um, now, wha- what could we be doing? Well, um, I think we should be hugely ambitious. And I don't have all the answers by any means, but I know that we should be much more ambitious than that in what we're gonna do. I ... We have the 21st century ahead of us. We have better luck than anyone in human history. Anyone. Not just anyone alive today, but anyone alive ever. So why would we be wasting our time playing identity quick-fix politics? I would submit that we should try to get ourselves off this in order to dream bigger dreams, to do really meaningful things, to not work out what we shouldn't be doing, and what we're not allowing ourselves to do, and what we don't think is in our lane, but to break out of that. You know, the, the, the ... Something, uh, um, Jordan Peterson and I and others have discussed a few times in the past has been this strange view of life in this era as if, as if the ideal life is to be harmless, like harmless from cradle to grave, not cause harm. "At least I didn't emit any CO2."

    11. CWChris Williamson58:53

        (laughs)

    12. DMDouglas Murray58:53

        "And I never, never upset anyone, and I never spoke when I shouldn't have spoken," and so on. And I just think we've got to break out of that and say, "No, no, the aim of this generation is not to just, it's not just to be harmless as our highest aspiration. It's to be extraordinary, to be great, to be inventive, to be intelligent, to be loving, to be caring, to be great i- in all of our personal relationships if we can, and recognize it will fail a great deal, but do as well as we can. And then in the rest of our lives be extraordinary, and, and, and, and great, and do things that people will talk about for generations afterwards and look at with admiration." Uh, you know, we don't look at the great buildings of the past that have stayed standing and, and look at them with anything but awe. And it w- I can't see that in this generation. If, if our ambition is to look at our navel long enough-

    13. CWChris Williamson59:54

        (laughs)

    14. DMDouglas Murray59:54

        ... to believe we've understood ourselves totally and then die, I see nobody standing looking at a statue of that and think if anyone could do that in marble and thinking, "Those are the guys." (laughs)

    15. CWChris Williamson1:00:08

        (laughs) 2000, 2019 really nailed it, didn't it?

    16. DMDouglas Murray1:00:12

        They so, they so

    17. NANarrator1:00:15

        So-

    18. CWChris Williamson1:00:15

        I get it. I, I, I, I agree. I agree. I, I, I think that when you think about how much energy goes into these issues, these non-issues, um, and some of the ... First off, when you think about how much, uh, dilution of real issues is done by the non-issues.

    19. DMDouglas Murray1:00:31

        Right. Right.

    20. CWChris Williamson1:00:32

        And then secondly, when you think about how much talent and cognitive power that could be spent on real, genuine-

    21. DMDouglas Murray1:00:41

        Yeah.

    22. CWChris Williamson1:00:41

        ... lasting epoch world-changing stuff.

    23. DMDouglas Murray1:00:44

        And, and, and just, and just, just, uh, just another ... one little thing on that which is, you know, this whole thing of hold yourself back, stay in your lane-... timidity. It's exactly the opposite. It's exactly the opposite of what successful lives-

    24. CWChris Williamson1:01:01

        Look like.

    25. DMDouglas Murray1:01:01

        ... are caused by.

    26. CWChris Williamson1:01:02

        Yeah.

    27. DMDouglas Murray1:01:03

        It's not, "I wonder how I can make sure I don't veer out of my lane, but how can I burst out of my lane and into the world?"

    28. CWChris Williamson1:01:10

        Mm-hmm.

    29. DMDouglas Murray1:01:12

        "How can, how can I do something unbelievably meaningful and important to me in my life and that will benefit other people too?" There's, there's an aspiration. But it's entirely in contradiction to what we are told. So, break out of the era, I'd say.

13. 1:01:33 – 1:03:31

    Wrap-up: where to find Douglas and the humor of name confusion online

    1. CWChris Williamson1:01:33

       Douglas, today has been absolutely fantastic. Thank you so much for coming on. Um, The Madness of Crowds. Everybody who is listening or watching, if you're on YouTube, the link will be in the show notes below. Uh, where can people hassle you if they need to find you online, Douglas?

    2. DMDouglas Murray1:01:49

       Uh, I'm on Twitter, @douglaskmurray. And, uh, I do have Facebook and things like that, um-

    3. CWChris Williamson1:01:56

       You are not douglasmurray3 on Instagram-

    4. DMDouglas Murray1:02:02

       Mm-mm.

    5. CWChris Williamson1:02:02

       ... as I found out earlier on today.

    6. DMDouglas Murray1:02:04

       Ah. Ooh.

    7. CWChris Williamson1:02:04

       That is, that is-

    8. DMDouglas Murray1:02:05

       Poor guy. (overlapping) Who is it?

    9. CWChris Williamson1:02:06

       ... that is a, uh, professional footballer at, I think, Washington State, but he's got a blue tick, so-

    10. DMDouglas Murray1:02:11

        There's, there's an ice hockey player who shares my name in Sweden.

    11. CWChris Williamson1:02:15

        Okay.

    12. DMDouglas Murray1:02:16

        Uh, because, um, I used to have a colleague who used to check, uh, when people were saying things about me and I used to say, "I don't really, would like to know about that." But she, she used to say, "Oh dear, what's he done now?" 'Cause it would be like, "Murray smashes opponent and then grinds him onto the ice."

    13. CWChris Williamson1:02:31

        (laughs)

    14. DMDouglas Murray1:02:31

        And go, "Oh no, (overlapping) s- the last bit," yeah, "No, no, no, it's fine. It's not him. It's not him."

    15. CWChris Williamson1:02:35

        Well, obviously, my, my name's Chris Williamson, so the number-

    16. DMDouglas Murray1:02:38

        Yeah, you've got all-

    17. CWChris Williamson1:02:39

        ... of anti-Semitic, uh, accusations-

    18. DMDouglas Murray1:02:41

        Yeah, yeah, yeah.

    19. CWChris Williamson1:02:41

        ... I've had. But I did, I did Love Island about four years ago. So I went on-

    20. DMDouglas Murray1:02:45

        Oh.

    21. CWChris Williamson1:02:45

        ... Love Island, um, and I, I often post like, "Oh my, uh, my anti-Semitic alter ego is at it again."

    22. DMDouglas Murray1:02:52

        (laughs)

    23. CWChris Williamson1:02:52

        And one of my friends, one of my friends commented on that below saying, "I wonder when you get in the press, whether he says, 'Oh, for fuck's sake, my Love Island alter ego's done it again.'"

    24. DMDouglas Murray1:03:00

        (laughs)

    25. CWChris Williamson1:03:03

        So, yeah, but Douglas, thank you so much for your time. Book's fantastic.

    26. DMDouglas Murray1:03:07

        My great pleasure.

    27. CWChris Williamson1:03:07

        It's made, it made a lot of sense to me. I hope it makes a lot of sense to everyone else as well. Uh-

    28. DMDouglas Murray1:03:11

        I hope they enjoy it.

    29. CWChris Williamson1:03:12

        Yeah, I'm sure that they will.

    30. DMDouglas Murray1:03:13

        Thank you for the time.

Episode duration: 1:03:31