DOUGLAS MURRAY | The Price Of Thinking Out Loud | Modern Wisdom Podcast 109

1. 0:00 – 15:00

   First of all, just…

   1. DMDouglas Murray0:00

      First of all, just because somebody is of a particular group does not mean they're right.

   2. CWChris Williamson0:04

      Piers Morgan gets brought up a few times throughout the book. Is it coincidental or does he just happen to embroil himself in these situations a lot?

   3. DMDouglas Murray0:11

      The references to him are not that obliging, and he's definitely one of those characters who throws himself into things, in his case, with just, you know, glee. The moment when you're integrated really into a society is not when you get anything special, or anything extra, or anything more. The moment when you're really integrated is when you realize you just have to put up with the same shit the rest of us have to put up with. We- we- we're living at a stage where we might be among the first people in human history to have absolutely no explanation for what we're doing here. I'm now going to be accused of biphobia, among all my other many, many crimes. But anyhow, the ridiculous person who complains on the BBC that they are often ridiculed in public, and that's not nice, but I point out, if you're ridiculous, you will be ridiculed.

   4. CWChris Williamson0:56

      I am joined by Douglas Murray, author of The Madness of Crowds, and bestselling author of The Strange Death of Europe. Douglas, welcome to the show.

   5. DMDouglas Murray1:04

      It's been a great pleasure to join you so far.

   6. CWChris Williamson1:06

      (laughs) We've had a couple of, uh, a couple of technical issues, but got through them fine. Um, and now we get onto the real issues. First things first, Madness of Crowds, your new book, four chapters: women, gay, race, and trans. Each one of those is a nuclear warhead ready to go off underneath my foot.

   7. DMDouglas Murray1:30

      (laughs)

   8. CWChris Williamson1:30

      Um, how, how are we going to be able to navigate this conversation, and how also did you navigate this, uh, without getting blown up?

   9. DMDouglas Murray1:40

      Well, um, I- I don't know. I've survived so far. The book's been (laughs) been out a fortnight, I'm still here.

   10. CWChris Williamson1:47

       Yeah.

   11. DMDouglas Murray1:48

       Um, look, uh, my- my- my view is, is that we- we- we've become, in our societies, really bad at having conversations. Um, we've become very bad at thinking because we can't think out loud, or at least the price of thinking out loud has become potential total career and life destruction. So when people wonder why people don't do it, it's- it's not hard to find the reason. (laughs) Um, I think that for some rea- uh, some reason, in recent years, I noticed that these four issues in particular, there are others, but these four issues in particular were the ones which people just kept on, uh... You know, the moment they nicked the tripwire, they were just detonated. And, uh, I just found that really interesting, also because I think all four issues are unbelievably interesting and, and actually significant. I mean, have significant, uh, um, effects on people's lives and on our societies. So my view is that, uh, um, we've got this strange position in our societies at the moment where the only people who can sort of speak or think out loud are people who don't have any hierarchy above them, that's vulnerable to crowd stampedes and mobs and so on. So those of us who can think aloud, whether we're right or wrong, I don't know, but, uh, sort of have a disproportionate duty to talk and think and write. And so I decided just to take each of the absolute nuclear bomb issues head on and just go jumping on in.

   12. CWChris Williamson3:22

       (laughs) You certainly did. Were there any... I was going to ask you this at the end, but I'm gonna ask you now. Um, were there any chapters that you could have considered adding that you didn't?

   13. DMDouglas Murray3:31

       That's a, that's a very good question. There were, there were two that I could have done that I didn't.

   14. CWChris Williamson3:36

       Okay.

   15. DMDouglas Murray3:36

       One, one was green.

   16. CWChris Williamson3:39

       Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

   17. DMDouglas Murray3:40

       Uh, which, uh, I am, have been, been becoming more and more interested in. Um, and I think that there's, whatever people's views about the, about the nature of climate change and the best way to deal with it and so on, it's, it's clear there is, at this point, an element of, um, crowd mentality that's kicking in. Um, and I suppose the other one that was, that what I could have done, I thought about doing, uh, but decided to put off to another day, was mental health, because I think that mental health, in general is a fascinating, fascinating issue. It's come very fast into the mainstream, and I think that that's sort of, you know, good in all sorts of ways. But there are lots of issues around mental health that I'm very skeptical about. Not that, you know, we don't need to get into all of them, but, uh, I- I- I don't entirely share a lot of the presumptions of the age. And I think that it basically, it has some of the same attributes as the things I'm discussing here, is that you get onto the thing, and you don't know where to correct or... It becomes almost impossible to say, "Stop" at any point. And I tell you, I mean, with the mental health, I'm just not bang on. But one of the ones I noticed a few years ago was that there were certain mental illnesses that people clearly wanted to have-

   18. CWChris Williamson4:57

       Uh-huh.

   19. DMDouglas Murray4:57

       ... and ones they didn't. Well, okay, sorry. Now you've just invited me to jump into-

   20. CWChris Williamson5:02

       Hey, hey.

   21. DMDouglas Murray5:03

       ... a highly new atomic bomb, but I will. Here we go.

   22. CWChris Williamson5:05

       Let's do it.

   23. DMDouglas Murray5:05

       So I noticed, for instance, speaking to doctor friends and everyone, that bipolar, this isn't to say that there aren't people who are bipolar, but that it was a good thing some people thought to have diagnosed.

   24. CWChris Williamson5:21

       Similar to OCD.

   25. DMDouglas Murray5:23

       Right. And the- and what's striking to me is that there are mental health afflictions that are just definitely not the ones that people would want, and they are underdiagnosed by comparison. So schizophrenia, like nobody thinks it's cool to be schizophrenic.

   26. CWChris Williamson5:39

       (laughs)

   27. DMDouglas Murray5:39

       And like, whereas on a date, somebody saying, "And I, you know, have bipolar issues," it's not that everyone loves that, but there'll be some people who'll be like, you know, "That's..." Whereas if you say, "And by the way, I should tell you, I'm, I'm a, a schizophrenic."

   28. CWChris Williamson5:56

       Mm-hmm.

   29. DMDouglas Murray5:57

       It has a different...

   30. CWChris Williamson5:58

       It's the branding, right?
2. 15:00 – 30:00

   Mm-hmm. …

   1. DMDouglas Murray15:00

      occasion of, uh, was to try to encompass all of that. Say, you know, this is the era we are in, and this is the madness we are going through. And to do that on everything from the level of the deep, deep ideas, all the way through to these television events, for instance, which have a massive impact on the culture. You know, if somebody is destroyed live on air-

   2. CWChris Williamson15:24

      Mm-hmm.

   3. DMDouglas Murray15:24

      ... for not saying the thing that nobody said till yesterday, everyone learns. Everyone learns.

   4. CWChris Williamson15:33

      You're right. It's the Buzzfeed 15 second clip, "Piers Morgan destroys homophobic bigot live on air."

   5. DMDouglas Murray15:42

      Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

   6. CWChris Williamson15:42

      Um, there was a, a, a guy who was doing gay conversion therapy. He's one of the examples-

   7. DMDouglas Murray15:47

      That's right.

   8. CWChris Williamson15:47

      ... in the book. Um, and, uh, one of the things he, I thought was very interesting, you have this quite balanced view, you went to go and see his particular film, and Piers Morgan had annihilated this guy live on air.

   9. DMDouglas Murray16:00

      Yeah.

   10. CWChris Williamson16:00

       But this particular individual wasn't working with anyone who didn't come to him, wasn't saying that it was, he wasn't making a value judgment-

   11. DMDouglas Murray16:07

       Yeah.

   12. CWChris Williamson16:07

       ... on gay or not gay. He was simply-

   13. DMDouglas Murray16:08

       That's right.

   14. CWChris Williamson16:08

       ... offering people a service for, that, that wanted to become straight. And-

   15. DMDouglas Murray16:12

       Yeah.

   16. CWChris Williamson16:14

       ... you're totally right. This, that was the little ball in the air, and Piers Morgan just came in and hit the bigot button.

   17. DMDouglas Murray16:19

       Yeah.

   18. CWChris Williamson16:19

       Immediately.

   19. DMDouglas Murray16:20

       That's right. And I actually, I felt sorry for the guy in question. I mean, I, I, I, I s- I caveat this a lot and I say like in a different era if he'd have had more power I wouldn't have liked to have necessarily had him in any kind of control, this guy. But if, um... Look, I mean, if you live in a free and liberal society, then, you know, what's goose for the... What's it, what source is the goose is source of the gander or whatever it is. Um, you can't just change one set of demands of a society and then just demand a new set. And you've got to express tolerance even to very, you know, things you disagree with a lot. And I say that as long as, as long as that, that, that, that group, I don't like what they do, but, uh, I don't, I don't think that, that... You know, I want, I want to look at their ideas, I want to weigh it up, and then I can come to my own conclusions. But yes, I'm very suspicious of this thing where people just are brought on air to be shouted at and told they're bigots and then waved off into the distance. Uh-

   20. CWChris Williamson17:19

       Why, why do we need to be tolerant of other people's views? Why do we-

   21. DMDouglas Murray17:23

       Well, the main, the main reasons are-

   22. CWChris Williamson17:25

       (laughs)

   23. DMDouglas Murray17:25

       ... the classical reasons for it that, certainly in the tradition of English liberty is, is, which is sort of the one that became the, the idea in America as well, is that, um, you need to hear other views. In fact, you, you specifically need to hear the, the views which are the minority views. Because first, basically the first reason is that you might be wrong. And if you are wrong, you want to have access to the correction to your error. Um, and even if you're not completely wrong, you might be wrong in part. Which it w- I mean, my own experience in life is that that's happened quite often. I, I've, I've had a presumption, and, and, and quite often whether that, that whole process, it's inevitable that we don't like to do it because...It's, it's more work, uh, to, to correct your opinion when you're wrong. I mean, there's been fascinating studies, there was a fascinating study at Harvard that Cass Sunstein and others did a few years ago that showed that, you know, we might think that when somebody's wrong, uh, uh, literally has the wrong view, that- that- that it's a fact they are wrong about-

   24. CWChris Williamson18:29

       Mm-hmm.

   25. DMDouglas Murray18:30

       ... and they meet the correction to the view, w- we might think, we tend to think that- that you would just say, "Oh, I see. I didn't- didn't realize I was wrong." But as anyone who's had a boyfriend or a girlfriend for a long time will know, uh, often it doesn't work like that. Um-

   26. CWChris Williamson18:45

       (laughs) They dig their heels in even harder.

   27. DMDouglas Murray18:46

       You don't immediately say, "Darling, I... God, I absolutely see your point. Thank you."

   28. CWChris Williamson18:51

       Yep.

   29. DMDouglas Murray18:52

       You know, you... So, and actually, the- the- the studies show that people double down on their error.

   30. CWChris Williamson18:57

       Mm-hmm.
3. 30:00 – 45:00

   Right. …

   1. CWChris Williamson30:00

      It's indifference. It's seeing them in the street-

   2. DMDouglas Murray30:02

      Right.

   3. CWChris Williamson30:02

      ... and feeling nothing. Uh, that, you know, that, that, to me, is completing it. Some people may be able to actually continue on with nice memories of their ex, but that indifference, that, again, you're seen just judged on the basis of your character. So, I want to, I want to jump onto the women thing, because the Nicki Ni- Nicki Minaj quotes throughout just had me, li- I, I absolutely loved that. But before we did that-

   4. DMDouglas Murray30:23

      Mm-hmm.

   5. CWChris Williamson30:23

      ... I only realized...... upon reading this book, 'cause I haven't looked that much into LGBT recent history. When did gay rights get, like, amalgamated in with LGBT? And does that-

   6. DMDouglas Murray30:39

      Yeah.

   7. CWChris Williamson30:39

      ... it, is there a... I don't know whether you know. You're not, not exactly like tip of the spear of like the gay movement or whatever. It doesn't, not-

   8. DMDouglas Murray30:45

      No.

   9. CWChris Williamson30:46

      ... not that you're the representative.

   10. DMDouglas Murray30:48

       (laughs)

   11. CWChris Williamson30:48

       But I wonder, I wonder how gay people feel about having to have their-

   12. DMDouglas Murray30:53

       Hm.

   13. CWChris Williamson30:53

       ... uh, movement adopted a- amongst this broader group of people, because it used to be gay rights. And I remember-

   14. DMDouglas Murray30:58

       Yeah.

   15. CWChris Williamson30:58

       ... I'm 31, I remember when it was gay rights.

   16. DMDouglas Murray31:00

       Right.

   17. CWChris Williamson31:00

       I don't remember when it became LGBT.

   18. DMDouglas Murray31:03

       Uh, well, uh, uh, it's, uh, the brief history is what, um, uh, um, Dave Chappelle refers to as the alphabet people in his recent show. Um, uh, is... He, he's actually, he, he has a very good summary of what I, part of what I say in the gay chapter. Basically, the gays, uh, and the lesbians got together, and they didn't have much in common other than the fight for, uh, uh, um, lesbian and gay rights.

   19. CWChris Williamson31:30

       Other than the fact that none of them were interested in each other.

   20. DMDouglas Murray31:33

       Yes.

   21. CWChris Williamson31:33

       (laughs)

   22. DMDouglas Murray31:33

       I mean, it's, it's a really... I love this sort of presentation of the LGBT community as if like the gays and the lesbians never meet. They have nothing-

   23. CWChris Williamson31:42

       (laughs)

   24. DMDouglas Murray31:42

       ... nothing to say to each other.

   25. CWChris Williamson31:44

       (laughs)

   26. DMDouglas Murray31:45

       And in my opinion, my experience, the lesbians all find the gays ridiculous, because they think they're essentially, um, sort of silly and obsessed with sex and lots more. And the gays think the lesbians are kind of dowdy and boring.

   27. CWChris Williamson32:03

       (laughs)

   28. DMDouglas Murray32:03

       And that's the... I'm not saying this is my view, of course.

   29. CWChris Williamson32:07

       Oh, no. I just... I love the-

   30. DMDouglas Murray32:09

       I'm purely stretching it.
4. 45:00 – 1:00:00

   (laughs) What? …

   1. DMDouglas Murray45:00

      how's the boy?" And he said, "Good." I said, "What does he think about girls?" He said, "He wants nothing to do with them."

   2. CWChris Williamson45:05

      (laughs) What?

   3. DMDouglas Murray45:05

      And I said... I know, and I said, "Well, well, well, he's not gay, is he?" He said, "No, no, no, he's not gay. See, it's just, they're more trouble than they're worth." He said it's just, he thinks they're a nightmare. And I've come across that quite a lot, actually, because it is, it is being made harder than it needs to be made.

   4. CWChris Williamson45:27

      I think the, the relations between the sexes has definitely got a lot less exciting. Um, the, the... do you remember flirting? Do you remember when flirting was a thing?

   5. DMDouglas Murray45:36

      Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.

   6. CWChris Williamson45:36

      It's the same as... it's... flirting's the same as tomboys and emos. Remember emos? Where have they gone? I don't know where emos are. Haven't seen an emo in like decade.

   7. DMDouglas Murray45:44

      I don't miss them, I have to say.

   8. CWChris Williamson45:46

      Yeah, fair enough. Too much eye shadow. But anyway, you get me. Like, all these things.

   9. DMDouglas Murray45:50

      (laughs)

   10. CWChris Williamson45:50

       Like, they feel like fucking nostalgia now.

   11. DMDouglas Murray45:52

       I know.

   12. CWChris Williamson45:53

       Flirting.

   13. DMDouglas Murray45:53

       You know, flirting is an amazing one, because there's a load of things... oh, we just had this, by the way, in the UK today, about the ridiculous claims that our Prime Minister once put his hand on a woman's leg 20 years ago, and this is the headline, this is the headline on the day we're speaking. The number one news item. Not like there's much else to talk about in the world, is there? But, you know, there's this strange thing where... I mean, the point is, this is so complicated because, again, we keep having this stuff out on that sort of level. The former Defence Minister, Michael Fallon, had to resign. And like, being the Defence Minister is a really serious job. It's not like agriculture or-

   14. CWChris Williamson46:33

       Or transport, yeah.

   15. DMDouglas Murray46:34

       No, but... it's not transport. I shouldn't say... oh my God, I'm getting... the farmers are going to be after me.

   16. CWChris Williamson46:38

       (laughs) In a bus, in a bus.

   17. DMDouglas Murray46:40

       I know agriculture is the most important one. No, no, they're transport people I don't mind losing but... but it's not like transport. So you're the Defence Minister, you've got part of the control over the nuclear capability.

   18. CWChris Williamson46:48

       (laughs)

   19. DMDouglas Murray46:49

       You could destroy Paris if you wanted. You, you... (laughs) no, but it's a serious job.

   20. CWChris Williamson46:55

       He's embroiled, he's embroiled in touching a woman's leg or something.

   21. DMDouglas Murray46:58

       And, and, and he... and somebody, as it happens, who I know, a journalist in the UK, had told a story some time before that he touched her knee at something, and she'd said... again, not all women can do this or want to do this, it's not to say this is always good, but this woman, you know, said, "If you keep your hand on my knee, I'll sock you in the bloody face," or something.

   22. CWChris Williamson47:17

       Mm-hmm.

   23. DMDouglas Murray47:18

       And he took his hand off pretty fast. That was it. That was it. And then, you know, 15 or 20 years later, uh, the story came out again. He had to resign. I mean, it's... in a way, it's a sort of very British sex scandal. There's no sex.

   24. CWChris Williamson47:30

       (laughs)

   25. DMDouglas Murray47:30

       Uh, it's like Liberal Democrat sex scandals. They're always like that. There's always like, a fat man asked a woman for coffee and she said no, and that was it, and then he has to resign. And that actually happened.

   26. CWChris Williamson47:42

       Oh my God.

   27. DMDouglas Murray47:42

       That actually happened with Lord Bennard. Anyhow, the point is, these are... people look at this and they think, "What exactly are the rules?" And the answer is, we're making them up as we go along, which is not uncommon, but we're making up rules that are completely contradictory. And I give the example in the book of like, what are you to make, growing up, of the fact that you are simultaneously told that women must always be believed, and the most popular book for women in recent years are the Fifty Shades stories where women have rape fantasies. Like, growing up is hard anyway, and these levels of not being able to discuss things mean that people just see these totally contradictory messages in the culture. And I don't blame them for being utterly bemused.

   28. CWChris Williamson48:41

       And do you know what the solution is? The solution's that of your friend's son, which is just to exit.... to just be like, "Do you know what it is? I, I, I can't do any sense-making. I either don't have the desire or the capacity, um, or the fucking sanity to spend my time thinking and trying to work out where the rubber meets the road to this issue, so do you know what it is? Simpler for me to simply not engage."

   29. DMDouglas Murray49:07

       Right.

   30. CWChris Williamson49:07

       So, um, recently I got asked to do a job for a particular company, um, as a brand ambassador. As a part of this, I went on a training course with them, and the training course... I run, uh, nightclubs in, in Newcastle. Uh, the training course was about, uh, sexual discrimination and sexual predation in nightclubs. Now as a, uh, a nightclub operator, that's something... That is the calling card that you do not want.
5. 1:00:00 – 1:03:31

   (laughs) 2000, 2019 really…

   1. DMDouglas Murray1:00:00

      looking at a statue of that and think if anyone could do that in marble and thinking, "Those are the guys." (laughs)

   2. CWChris Williamson1:00:08

      (laughs) 2000, 2019 really nailed it, didn't it?

   3. DMDouglas Murray1:00:12

      They so, they so

   4. NANarrator1:00:15

      So-

   5. CWChris Williamson1:00:15

      I get it. I, I, I, I agree. I agree. I, I, I think that when you think about how much energy goes into these issues, these non-issues, um, and some of the ... First off, when you think about how much, uh, dilution of real issues is done by the non-issues.

   6. DMDouglas Murray1:00:31

      Right. Right.

   7. CWChris Williamson1:00:32

      And then secondly, when you think about how much talent and cognitive power that could be spent on real, genuine-

   8. DMDouglas Murray1:00:41

      Yeah.

   9. CWChris Williamson1:00:41

      ... lasting epoch world-changing stuff.

   10. DMDouglas Murray1:00:44

       And, and, and just, and just, just, uh, just another ... one little thing on that which is, you know, this whole thing of hold yourself back, stay in your lane-... timidity. It's exactly the opposite. It's exactly the opposite of what successful lives-

   11. CWChris Williamson1:01:01

       Look like.

   12. DMDouglas Murray1:01:01

       ... are caused by.

   13. CWChris Williamson1:01:02

       Yeah.

   14. DMDouglas Murray1:01:03

       It's not, "I wonder how I can make sure I don't veer out of my lane, but how can I burst out of my lane and into the world?"

   15. CWChris Williamson1:01:10

       Mm-hmm.

   16. DMDouglas Murray1:01:12

       "How can, how can I do something unbelievably meaningful and important to me in my life and that will benefit other people too?" There's, there's an aspiration. But it's entirely in contradiction to what we are told. So, break out of the era, I'd say.

   17. CWChris Williamson1:01:33

       Douglas, today has been absolutely fantastic. Thank you so much for coming on. Um, The Madness of Crowds. Everybody who is listening or watching, if you're on YouTube, the link will be in the show notes below. Uh, where can people hassle you if they need to find you online, Douglas?

   18. DMDouglas Murray1:01:49

       Uh, I'm on Twitter, @douglaskmurray. And, uh, I do have Facebook and things like that, um-

   19. CWChris Williamson1:01:56

       You are not douglasmurray3 on Instagram-

   20. DMDouglas Murray1:02:02

       Mm-mm.

   21. CWChris Williamson1:02:02

       ... as I found out earlier on today.

   22. DMDouglas Murray1:02:04

       Ah. Ooh.

   23. CWChris Williamson1:02:04

       That is, that is-

   24. DMDouglas Murray1:02:05

       Poor guy. (overlapping) Who is it?

   25. CWChris Williamson1:02:06

       ... that is a, uh, professional footballer at, I think, Washington State, but he's got a blue tick, so-

   26. DMDouglas Murray1:02:11

       There's, there's an ice hockey player who shares my name in Sweden.

   27. CWChris Williamson1:02:15

       Okay.

   28. DMDouglas Murray1:02:16

       Uh, because, um, I used to have a colleague who used to check, uh, when people were saying things about me and I used to say, "I don't really, would like to know about that." But she, she used to say, "Oh dear, what's he done now?" 'Cause it would be like, "Murray smashes opponent and then grinds him onto the ice."

   29. CWChris Williamson1:02:31

       (laughs)

   30. DMDouglas Murray1:02:31

       And go, "Oh no, (overlapping) s- the last bit," yeah, "No, no, no, it's fine. It's not him. It's not him."

Episode duration: 1:03:31