Dr David Sinclair - Defeating Ageing & Living Longer | Modern Wisdom Podcast 343

1. 0:00 – 1:51

   Intro

   1. DSDr David Sinclair0:00

      One great thing about staying young and living, living longer is that you outlive your enemies, and it makes life a lot easier. For me, I, I've never felt this good. I've never been this sharp. I've never been this happy. I'm not going to say I've never looked this good, but I certainly feel young and, and great with what I'm doing.

   2. CWChris Williamson0:15

      What was it you said? F- the limbic system.

   3. DSDr David Sinclair0:17

      Don't do what it says. Otherwise, all we'd be doing would be eating, sleeping, and having sex.

   4. CWChris Williamson0:21

      Yeah.

   5. DSDr David Sinclair0:21

      I know that sounds great, but you're not going to live that long, unfortunately, especially if you're doing them all at the same time. That's a really, really, really, really good question. No one's ever asked me that. But the answer is that ... (wind blowing)

   6. CWChris Williamson0:34

      Ladies and gentlemen, boys and girls, welcome back to the show. I am joined by Dr. David Sinclair. InStyle Magazine referred to you as a Sydney-born researcher who is a rockstar in the longevity field. In 2014, he was voted alongside the likes of Jeff Bezos and Beyoncé one of TIME Magazine's 100 Most Influential People in the world. David, welcome back.

   7. DSDr David Sinclair0:58

      Oh, boy. Thanks, Chris. What an intro.

   8. CWChris Williamson1:00

      (laughs) Beyoncé. Did you ever think that your work would take you into the, the echelons of Beyoncé?

   9. DSDr David Sinclair1:07

      Uh, I guess I, I dreamt about it. (laughs)

   10. CWChris Williamson1:11

       (laughs) It seems like you're everywhere at the moment. Are you? It feels like you are.

   11. DSDr David Sinclair1:17

       No.

   12. CWChris Williamson1:18

       You are everywhere.

   13. DSDr David Sinclair1:19

       I, I, I mean, I came out of, out of the, uh, pandemic, you know, with a rush. Uh, a lot of people wanted to see me. So that's why it feels like I'm everywhere. But, uh, no, I've been very quiet. Uh, even social media, I wasn't, uh, as active. But I'm certainly dying to be out there, um, communicating, talking about my next book. The old one's selling really well. So people want to hear what I have to say, so I don't mind being a, a scientific communicator 'cause right now there's a lot of BS out there in terms of information. And, uh, I think people like me need to

2. 1:51 – 4:26

   David's New Book

   1. DSDr David Sinclair1:51

      step up.

   2. CWChris Williamson1:52

      You've hinted at the new book. What can you tell us about what it is?

   3. DSDr David Sinclair1:58

      Okay. Uh, so it's... I have to be careful not to give it away 'cause someone probably will bang it out and beat me to it. But it's a, it's a, a look at how did we end up in this world that we live in, that we've created, and the effect it's had on our bodies over the last six million years. Technology is great, but it also makes us weaker as a species, and many of us are living lives that are extremely unhealthy because of it. And we have to use the four traits of humanity that separate us from animals, uh, to get us out of this mess, uh, because they got us into this mess. Uh, and I'm talking about the fact that I'm sitting in front of bright lights, staring down a computer, sitting down. Uh, we're all eating too much too often. Uh, these things we've created, and, and it's beyond that actually. Our bodies have evolved to be pathetic because our technology has replaced the need for big muscles. Uh, and instead we look like a lollipop.

   4. CWChris Williamson2:53

      We're unfit for purpose.

   5. DSDr David Sinclair2:55

      Exactly. And you know, I'm in, I'm in Boston in, in the winter when you were here last to, to talk. Put us outside and in 15 minutes, we're probably going to be dead. That's, that's not a very strong species. You know, mo- most animals around here live the whole year outdoors. Uh, we're not built for that anymore. And there's no going back, right? We have to keep innovating to fix the problems we've had, created, uh, and, uh, and to make sure that we continue to improve our lives. Uh, and it's, it's not clear whether we can ever get off this treadmill.

   6. CWChris Williamson3:28

      When are you aiming for publication for that? I know this is like the, the author's nightmare question, but when are you aiming for it?

   7. DSDr David Sinclair3:36

      (laughs) Uh, well, yeah, probably sometime, uh, next year. Um, but it's, it's going really well. My co-author Matt Laplante and I are, uh, best buddies and we... This isn't work for me or him. We, we just laugh our heads off and ..........................

   8. CWChris Williamson3:51

      Is that gonna be the, the guy that you're gonna do your YouTube miniseries with as well? Is that the same dude?

   9. DSDr David Sinclair3:56

      That's the plan, yeah. So we're gonna do some pilots to see how we work on camera. Um, if you've read, I, I think you've read, but if anyone has read Lifespan or actually more importantly listened to it, Matt and I kid around in between the chapters and you can get a sense, uh, of, of what we're like. But, uh, he, he's great. He's, he feeds off me. He's a, he's a journalist, not a scientist, so he can ask all the dumb questions. Uh, and then I can tease him about being stupid. It's really great. (laughs)

3. 4:26 – 9:27

   Why Aren't Humans Immortal?

   1. DSDr David Sinclair4:26

   2. CWChris Williamson4:26

      (laughs) I love it. Okay. So since we last spoke, I've really fallen in love with evolutionary psychology. One of the questions that has been in my mind ever since we spoke is the purpose to dying. Because I thought that we were supposed to be adaptive fitness maximizers, and surely that means that having a certain end to life is a bit of an arrow. Like why, why haven't we just been evolved to become immortal?

   3. DSDr David Sinclair4:52

      Well, we, we only evolve to stay- stick around for as long as we need to, to replace ourselves. Richard Dawkins put it pretty well. Our genes get to move on, but we don't. Um, and, and that's the case. We haven't really evolved into our station in life. Whales have. They're at the top of the food chain, uh, and they can live hundreds of years, bowhead whale being the longest. Um, conversely, mice get picked off in a year or two. They don't bother building a body that lasts 100 years 'cause they won't be around anyway. And with that energy that you save living longer, you actually can put it into reproduction, which mice do. And we're somewhere in between. And the problem is we haven't been at the top of the food chain for that long. We used to be picked off by cats and, and pretty much even spiders, uh, in the savanna. And what we need to do is to engineer ourselves to live longer. We're not going to evolve fast enough for any of us to, to matter or benefit.

   4. CWChris Williamson5:48

      So, so the length of time that we stay alive is almost like a, um, predictive risk mitigation from our, uh, bodies.

   5. DSDr David Sinclair5:58

      I, yeah. Thinking out loud, I, I think it's, it's more like, um...... planned obsolescence. E- e- evolution's not gonna put too much effort into keeping our bodies young if it doesn't need to, because i- it could then put resources elsewhere. Uh, similar to, I don't know, a phone these days. No one expects to have it 10 years from now, so they don't build it to last that long anyway, and that's what we are. Um, but i- if we stuck around for another 20 million years as a species, we may evolve to live hundreds of years, uh, but that doesn't really help us right now. And u- unless we solve this problem of people getting sicker and sicker longer and longer and the economic burdens of that, we as a civilization, uh, may not make it more than 100 years from now.

   6. CWChris Williamson6:46

      What do we gain then? Presumably if we are sacrificing longevity for something, is it, a- a- are we stronger than we would be? Are we faster than we would be? Is our metabolism more efficient than it would be if we were planned to live for 150 or 200 years?

   7. DSDr David Sinclair7:03

      Yeah, usually it's a trade-off in reproductive rates. Uh, you look at whales, how often they breed versus a, a mouse that can have, uh, you know, six to 12 offspring at once. We're somewhere in between. And if we just evolved, and we didn't do it, if this was not human-directed, uh, we would probably live for a couple of hundred years and be less fertile and kids w- we may not be able to have kids until we're in our 30s biologically. We'd slow all that down and stretch out life, uh, which sounds good to me.

   8. CWChris Williamson7:38

      That's what you're trying to do. So it's so strange that, um, essentially what you're aiming for here is to kind of jump the queue. We don't have to wait a few hundred thousand or a few million years for evolution to do it, to realize... You're almost knocking on the door of evolution and reminding it, "Look, there aren't any threats anymore. We've completely nerfed our environment. Let us live for as long as we want to."

   9. DSDr David Sinclair8:00

      Well, yeah. That, that's exactly what I'm saying, though I don't know if we'll ever be immortal, but gaining an extra 15 years isn't that difficult if you just do the right things that we all know are good for us. Uh, don't smoke, do a bit of exercise, eat less frequently, get some good sleep, have friends. These things will get you another, on average, another 14 years versus someone who doesn't. Don't smoke is an important one. Uh, but the technologies that we're inventing as a field and in my lab, uh, could get us beyond that. So, you know, we're talking about it within our lifetimes being able to be 90, 95, even 100, still play tennis, hang out with the grandkids if you've got them, great-grandkids probably. Um, this is not crazy anymore. And in fact, they, we've got signs that we can not just slow down aging, but reverse it, which I'm pretty excited about, to say the least, because I used to think that, uh, we wouldn't see these changes in our lifetime, but they're happening right now, and, uh, it's, it's far quicker than I thought it would be.

   10. CWChris Williamson8:58

       It's like a, the Moore's law of longevity research.

   11. DSDr David Sinclair9:03

       It is, and we're actually helped by Moore's law. We, in my lab, we crunch about a terabyte of data, uh, every week. It's speeding up. Probably in a few years, it'll be a terabyte per day. And so we rely on that. We also can sequence your genome, uh, in a day for $100, uh, and s- can be done on a little device like this. It used to be $2 billion, uh, 20 years ago. So Moore's law is helping us in genetics as well.

4. 9:27 – 15:37

   The Finer Points of Fasting

   1. DSDr David Sinclair9:27

   2. CWChris Williamson9:27

      That's funny. So y- you mentioned fasting now, eating less. The mechanism of fasting, how it works, where does that come from? Is it the restriction of the nutrients, or is it the discomfort of feeling hungry?

   3. DSDr David Sinclair9:45

      Well, uh, it's not exactly clear. It might be a bit of both that... So m- mostly, the good news is that when your body doesn't have spikes in blood sugar from eating and doesn't have a lot of amino acids around from eating a steak, it will go into a defensive mode. We know that. My lab published this in 2005, uh, from a rat study, that when you're hungry or calorically restricted, we used to call it a lot, um, the levels of longevity genes go up. Uh, we studied, we study one called SIRT1, S-I-R-T 1. Uh, but now basically the, the concept is when you're not eating and your body is experiencing, uh, low glucose and has to make its own glucose, uh, it will go into this defensive mode, and you want to maximize that. So I, I go for at least 18 hours a day without, or trying not to eat, and I compensate with tea and coffee. And the interesting thing is I don't feel hungry anymore, um, unless I'm super stressed, but that doesn't happen that often. Do you need to feel the hunger? I'm not sure. Um, I would love to see definitive evidence of that. But it might be true 'cause the brain does control aging as well.

   4. CWChris Williamson10:58

      That would be interesting, right? How much of the effect of the fast comes from the discomfort of sensing the fast and how much of that is perhaps being curbed by th- the hot drinks, which you advocate is one of the ways to kind of get through a fast a little bit more easily.

   5. DSDr David Sinclair11:12

      Mm-hmm.

   6. CWChris Williamson11:12

      I guess it's gonna be difficult. You would have to use some sort of calorie-less stomach filling, like, flumps or something to-

   7. DSDr David Sinclair11:21

      Well, so interestingly, uh, in the 1930s, uh, '35, Clive McCay and his colleagues who studied caloric restriction actually were one of the first groups to report that if you feed rats, instead of food, you give them cellulose with a little bit of food, which is the same bulk, uh, they do live longer. So, uh, you know, I, that's why I, I lean towards the feeling of hunger not being as important as just maintaining your, your blood sugar levels, um, at a steady low level.

   8. CWChris Williamson11:52

      That's interesting. So, okay, so beyond fasting, optimal diet makeup for you is lean towards vegetables, colors, stressed vegetables, and f- and stuff like that. If you eat just your one meal a day, what do you tend, what does that tend to look like? What's sort of typical David Sinclair dinner?

   9. DSDr David Sinclair12:11

      Well, there really isn't one. If I'm eating out, yeah, it's going to different-

   10. CWChris Williamson12:15

       God knows. Roll a dice claps

   11. DSDr David Sinclair12:16

       ... Yeah, I, I mean I'll avoid fried food and a lot of meat. Uh, I just can't digest it. My, my bacteria in my gut don't care for it anymore. They, they ... Those, those guys died out a while ago. Uh, so I, I can't, I cannot eat big heavy meals with meat unless, you know, I train myself, and I, I, I don't do that. So a typical meal, if I'm at home, I might have a, a little bit of cheese, some vegetables. I'll cook some up or even eat them raw with a, with a dip. Uh, usually I'm working. If, if so- nobody's visiting, I'm actually just grazing while I work, and that's my dinner. Um, I don't really at home focus on making meals. Um, I'd, I'd rather just, uh, get other stuff done. Uh, but it l- eating out, here's a, here's an important point. If, if somebody has a dessert, now I won't typically order a dessert. I haven't since I was aged 40, and that's over a decade, um, ago. But I will steal a spoonful-

   12. CWChris Williamson13:14

       (laughs)

   13. DSDr David Sinclair13:14

       ... of cheesecake.

   14. CWChris Williamson13:15

       Someone else's.

   15. DSDr David Sinclair13:16

       You got to, you got to live. What's the point of living longer if it's not s- enjoyable? So that's the other point, which is you, you wouldn't want to go from a standing start to what I do, because it, it'll, you'll have habits that are really hard to break. Just putting stuff in your mouth and chewing is a habit. Um, ask anyone who's been a smoker about that. I think we like, as mammals, uh, we like to suck on things and chew on things. So there's that to overcome, and that takes a couple of weeks at least to get used to. So go steadily, um, and try skipping one meal if you've never tried it, either breakfast or dinner. Um, eat, eat, eat breakfast or eat dinner, but don't do both.

   16. CWChris Williamson13:54

       Someone should write a protocol for that, like you know, just a really good blog post about how to ... 'Cause I've seen many about how to do intermittent fasting, but very few about how to transition from a normal or a, a more typical eating state into a fasting state, you know? Day w- day one to five, try this. Day five to 10, try this. Day f- you know? That would be ... Someone do that. Someone can, someone can write that for us. Um, yeah, it's an interesting one that you've got a problem or that there is a problem with eating lots of protein irregulately. Coming from a gym bro background, obviously that makes me want to be violently sick. Um, if someone wants to try and maintain muscle mass or even increase their muscle mass, is it gonna have to be a trade-off because there's a maximum amount of protein that you can absorb within one meal, increasing the frequency that you eat that protein at is good for muscle synthesis, but bad for longevity? Is there any sort of insight you've got there?

   17. DSDr David Sinclair14:48

       Right. Well, if, if you want to be a bodybuilder, um, especially professionals, uh, what I do is, is, may not be optimal though. You know, there's a fair number of athletes who say plant-based diets are equal or better. Uh, I'm not an expert on that. But what I can tell you is that ... I mean, I, I've built up my muscle mass on a diet like I have. Um, I don't know if anyone can tell, but I'm in better shape than I've ever been sin- you know, I'm back to my body as, that I was when I was 20. Um, and so I don't find that my diet prevents me from gaining muscle mass or working out. Um, I suppose if I wanted an extra 5% gain, I, I could do that. But for me, just being healthy, fit, feeling good and lean is, is my goal. I'm not out to, uh, win contests.

5. 15:37 – 20:14

   The Impact of Sleep

   1. DSDr David Sinclair15:38

   2. CWChris Williamson15:38

      How come that sleep isn't a hormesis stressor like fasting or exercise?

   3. DSDr David Sinclair15:46

      Well, it's an, it's anti-hormesis. Um, it's, it's necessary for, for long life and health. There's no question about that. Um, you mean a lack of sleep, why doesn't that work?

   4. CWChris Williamson15:57

      Yeah, yeah. Yeah, why can't you ... 'Cause you're saying fast, it's uncomfortable. It makes you feel g- it, it makes you live longer. We're in f- scary mode. We need to extend our life or else we might not be able to reproduce before we die, so knuckle down.

   5. DSDr David Sinclair16:09

      Yeah.

   6. CWChris Williamson16:09

      And the same thing goes for exercise. You're under stress. Why not just ... Why, why isn't sleep pa- or a lack of sleep have the same impact?

   7. DSDr David Sinclair16:15

      That's a really, really, really, really good question. No one's ever asked me that. But the answer is that-

   8. CWChris Williamson16:21

      (laughs)

   9. DSDr David Sinclair16:22

      ... the longev- the longevity gene that we study that's really, we think it's really important for, uh, for human longevity too, is part of the, the circadian clock. And when you mess that up, either through lack of sleep, jet lag, or just aging, which diminishes the clock's ability to form high peaks and low peaks, um, then it, it, it, it impacts your longevity probably because it's affecting, uh, your ability to fight disease through longevity defenses. But it's a, it seems to be a positive feedback problem, which is that if you don't get enough sleep, you screw up your aging, and then you age, and aging screws up your sleep. And by the time you're elderly, you're not sleeping well, uh, and, uh, you, you're probably, you're, you're under this accelerated aging program. Um, interestingly that I talk a lot about NAD+, which is part of my research, controls this SIRT1 defense system, and the levels go down as you age, but they also go up and down during the day. As you're waking up, you start to make more NAD+. And if you disrupt that NAD+ level, you disrupt your sleep. And so that's why I tell people if they're going to boost their NAD+ levels, do it coincident with the clock as it's rising. Hit it then, which is in the morning, because I know from experience that if you take it late at night, you're gonna bump up your body, make it think that it's the morning, uh, and you'll, you'll have trouble sleeping.

   10. CWChris Williamson17:47

       It'd be like taking melatonin to wake up and cortisone before bed. It's just not in line with the natural circadian rhythm.

   11. DSDr David Sinclair17:54

       Right. But I find, and this is just anecdotal, uh, I find it's very good raising NAD+ levels, uh, when you get to a destination in a different time zone, which makes sense, right? That, that you're able to control the body's clock and reset it by getting-

   12. CWChris Williamson18:07

       What if it's 10:00 PM at night?

   13. DSDr David Sinclair18:10

       (laughs) ... uh, we're in my destination, yeah, then, then I'll, I'll, I'll fast until the next morning and then take a hit of, uh, NAD Booster in the morning.

   14. CWChris Williamson18:21

       God.

   15. DSDr David Sinclair18:21

       And I feel great. I don't, I don't have jet lag anymore.

   16. CWChris Williamson18:24

       You've managed to fix that problem?

   17. DSDr David Sinclair18:26

       Yeah, for myself, for sure.

   18. CWChris Williamson18:28

       There's been some research into melatonin recently, hasn't there, around longevity? Or at least I keep on seeing it popping up here and there. Have you looked into that at all?

   19. DSDr David Sinclair18:36

       Oh, well, I read the literature. It's hard to keep up, uh, with all of it, but I don't think, um, I've seen anything amazing about melatonin in years. And when you start to see a big gap in discoveries in science, you start to wonder, is it really reproducible or not? But if, if there's something new, uh, definitely send it my way and I'll report about it in public.

   20. CWChris Williamson18:57

       I'll have a look. Um, so sleep for longevity, does anyone know... I mean, I, I can't believe that anybody in this world after Matthew Walker just, uh, red pilled everyone on the planet with his book, I can't believe that anyone doesn't really value it. How often do you think or how often do you en- encounter people that don't understand the, the price they pay for poor sleep?

   21. DSDr David Sinclair19:20

       Uh, not, not very often. I think I've got his book on the shelf up there. Yeah, there it is-

   22. CWChris Williamson19:24

       Yeah.

   23. DSDr David Sinclair19:24

       ... next to my rocket ship.

   24. CWChris Williamson19:25

       (laughs)

   25. DSDr David Sinclair19:26

       Uh, so it's, uh, it's much more... I mean, thanks to, to the book, Matt's book, it, it really is in public's consciousness. Now, I, I don't talk to everybody, and I tend to talk to people who approach me and the- their interested in it much.

   26. CWChris Williamson19:39

       Already down the rabbit hole, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

   27. DSDr David Sinclair19:41

       But, um, it's, it's night and day, excuse the pun-

   28. CWChris Williamson19:44

       (laughs)

   29. DSDr David Sinclair19:45

       ... um, in the public's eye are the value of sleep. Uh, but I find that some people get stressed out about not sleeping, which makes things worse. So you have to be careful not to worry too much. What I did was I, I, I have one of these Oura rings which tells when I've had a bad night's sleep, and that's not so much to tell me that I need to take it easy. I mean, I can tell, everyone knows when they feel crappy, but it's more about reflecting on what happened the night before and what might have caused it. Maybe a big meal, too

6. 20:14 – 28:37

   The Future of the Health Industry

   1. DSDr David Sinclair20:14

      much alcohol, that kind of stuff.

   2. CWChris Williamson20:16

      I had a, uh, author on the show talking about some of the challenges of tech addiction and wearables addiction is now, uh, another thing where he, he was talking about, um, people who have to hit their 10,000 or 15,000 or 20,000 steps a day, and the husband thought that this particular woman was having an affair because she'd always leave the house at 10:00 PM at night, and it turned out that she was seven and a half thousand steps under her. So she's there power walking around the neighborhood and-

   3. DSDr David Sinclair20:46

      Mm-hmm.

   4. CWChris Williamson20:46

      ... her husband thinks that she's off having sex with the neighbor or something like that. Very, very briskly walking to have a, a quick fling that lasts for about seven minutes and then coming back.

   5. DSDr David Sinclair20:55

      Uh, well, it, it, it does become addictive, but it's better to be addicted to that than a lot of other things. Uh, I think that the future is that we will know way more about our bodies than, than we know about our cars. Right now, it's the opposite. I mean, who, who would drive without a dashboard? But how many of us have tracked our bodies over the last 10 years like I have? And, uh, what's coming in the, the very near future, and I already am in this future, it's just, you know, I'm one of the, on the, you know, front row seat. Um, you have a ring, you have a watch, but more importantly, your doctor will give you a patch to stick here, either just before the visit, maybe a week before, or if you just left hospital, and then eventually you wouldn't leave home without one because you'll, you'll need it. These devices are instead of going for an annual checkup, they'll measure you a thousand times a second. Um, and they're real. They exist. I've got one just in my, in my bag. I usually wear it. You push a button, it syncs with your phone, your doctor can see the results, um, and they'll tell you if you get sick, if you're gonna have a heart attack in the future, next week. Um, they monitor your breathing, your temperature, your heart and it's, uh, in the US, FDA approved. So these are true medical devices, not, not toys like these things.

   6. CWChris Williamson22:08

      (laughs) Didn't you say it can work out which side you slept on, whether you slept on your right or your left last night and stuff like that?

   7. DSDr David Sinclair22:15

      Oh yeah. I mean, they're seeing a lot. The- you got to give up some privacy.

   8. CWChris Williamson22:18

      I was gonna say, yeah, this... Uh, dude, one of the best things that I've heard you say was someone can steal your credit card once, but once your health records are public, that's for life. That is going to be health record security is going to be a huge thing as you get all of these crazy insights and you're potentially able to look at the project out someone's, someone's life. That's implications for employment, for relationships, for insurance, for everything.

   9. DSDr David Sinclair22:47

      It is, but we already live in that world. We shouldn't be scared of it. Now we're talking about gaining an extra 10, probably 20 years for some of us with this technology. You have to take, you know, take technology for what it is. And already our medical records are digitized and can be stolen, but they're not. So there are really robust mechanisms in place and laws right now about health, uh, data security, and we'll strengthen them, but right now I'm, I'm not concerned. I think the, the benefits far outweigh the risk, and I, I haven't seen anybody's genome get hacked or stolen yet.

   10. CWChris Williamson23:22

       (laughs)

   11. DSDr David Sinclair23:23

       Um, I am, I am building a company, uh, that, that will tell you your biological age and, and ostensibly how to slow down the process and reverse it with all the latest technology. Um, and I've, I've got a website if anybody wants to sign up, and Chris, we can do you-

   12. CWChris Williamson23:41

       Amazing.

   13. DSDr David Sinclair23:41

       ... as one of the early adopters. Um-

   14. CWChris Williamson23:44

       What's the website?

   15. DSDr David Sinclair23:45

       ... the website, the website is doctorsinclair.com. Doctor is spelled out, not D-R, D-O-C-T-O-R sinclair.com. Get on the wait list and, uh, you'll be one of the first people on the planet to have this test done. Um, and, uh, I'm sure we'll offer some discounts early for, for early adopters too.

   16. CWChris Williamson24:02

       I love it. What do you want to be able to measure through a bio device that currently it's quite hard to measure?

   17. DSDr David Sinclair24:14

       Right. Um, well first thing is that that'll be a mouth swab. So the, the age of your body, that will tell you-

   18. CWChris Williamson24:19

       Mm-hmm.

   19. DSDr David Sinclair24:19

       ... biological age. It's just an easy ... You don't have to spit, you don't have to take drugs-

   20. CWChris Williamson24:23

       I mean, aside from that, so let's look at the wearables that you've got on now. You can get HRV and you can get what side you slept on, and you can get blood glucose-

   21. DSDr David Sinclair24:30

       Yeah.

   22. CWChris Williamson24:30

       ... through these insulin-y things. What's missing? What, what do you, what would you-

   23. DSDr David Sinclair24:33

       Well-

   24. CWChris Williamson24:33

       ... like someone to bring up the technology to do next?

   25. DSDr David Sinclair24:35

       Yeah, I know. I heard the question. I was gonna get to it.

   26. CWChris Williamson24:37

       Sorry.

   27. DSDr David Sinclair24:37

       I just forgot to mention the other stuff. The, uh, y- fair enough. So I would, I think blood glucose on a patch would be great, rather than sticking a needle. That's coming.

   28. CWChris Williamson24:46

       Oh yeah, I've seen that. I've seen the, in the middle of those things on the back of people's arms. It looks like a ... No, it's danger- I don't know, I'm, I'm not fantastic with needles.

   29. DSDr David Sinclair24:55

       (laughs) Well, I don't find it pleasant to put in. You actually have to push a button and it hammers it into your arm. And I, I don't like needles either. I get scared of it. Once it's in, it's okay, but the thought of it flying into my skin is not good. And I, on Instagram, if you wanna check it out, I pulled one of these off my arm. There's blood there, I pulled it apart and you can see the inner workings and the needle.

   30. CWChris Williamson25:18

       Yeah.
7. 28:37 – 35:42

   Optimal Exercise for Longevity

   1. CWChris Williamson28:37

      All right, so talking about exercise, your exercise, um, prescription for longevity seems like quite a low dose of movement to me. It's like 10 minutes out of breath a couple of times a week. Is that a minimum effective dose or an optimal one?

   2. DSDr David Sinclair28:52

      Minimal.

   3. CWChris Williamson28:53

      Okay. Have you got any idea what an optimal one would be?

   4. DSDr David Sinclair28:56

      No one does. Um, but it's somewhere between running 10 minutes three times a week on a treadmill and running 20 miles a week, um, something like that. And it's, there's a lot of studies, so it's, it's really hard to say which is the optimum, and there are different types of exercise. There's running, there's cycling, et cetera.

   5. CWChris Williamson29:15

      Mm-hmm.

   6. DSDr David Sinclair29:15

      Um, but yeah, at a minimum, lose your breath, um, two, three times a week. And if you can't do that, if you're too old or too lazy like, like I am, uh, generally, uh, long walks are great. Um, I, I like to lift weights so usually next to my desk, I'm moving house, but usually I'd have some weights just next to me. Um, and so when I'm bored or feel a, a little bit restless and I've been sitting down, I'll just pick up weights and uh, you know, you don't have to go to the gym. Just have these sitting around next to you. And I find that to be really great, and I do my exercises with a little bit lighter weight than a body builder would. I haven't told anybody this, but this is what I do. Um, I do a lot of reps, and I'm doing this and this during the day, and I do many reps and I do them fast because that also gives me the aerobic exercise as well as builds up my muscle. Now, I have a gym, um, so I do more serious weights, but in my office, I'm doing high reps and it's aerobic and, and muscle building, which you know I've been optimizing this for my body for the last-... 30 years since I was a kid. Um, and I don't know if it works for everybody, but, um, for me, I- I've never felt this good. I've never been this sharp. I've never been this happy. Um, I'm not going to say I've never looked this good, but I certainly feel young and, and great with what I'm doing.

   7. CWChris Williamson30:38

      Well, you had to lift your shirt up to clean the camera lens before we got started, and you've, you're looking lean at the moment. You lost, whatever it was, 12 pounds since February?

   8. DSDr David Sinclair30:48

      Yeah. My, I found my six-pack. It was somewhere under there.

   9. CWChris Williamson30:50

      Yeah, man. That's awesome.

   10. DSDr David Sinclair30:52

       Yep.

   11. CWChris Williamson30:52

       Uh, another, um, advocate, I guess similarly within this space, although a little bit more towards the performance endurance side is Ben Greenfield, and he tells me that, um, trying to walk through his office, he says, is like doing an obstacle course because he's got a kettlebell here and he's got a resistance band there, and during, he's got a, um, treadmill desk that he walks on with one of these self-powered banana treadmills. Are you going to show me a treadmill desk underneath your desk?

   12. DSDr David Sinclair31:17

       I'm going to show you what I have under here, which is cool. I don't know who makes this thing, but-

   13. CWChris Williamson31:21

       What's that? What, that looks like a torture machine.

   14. DSDr David Sinclair31:25

       No.

   15. CWChris Williamson31:25

       Oh, is it a stepper? Is it a stepper?

   16. DSDr David Sinclair31:27

       Stepper under my desk.

   17. CWChris Williamson31:28

       Wow. Okay. Yeah. Well, I mean, if you get bored and restless, I, I suppose just turning around and having something to do, have you had a look at the impact of sitting or being sedentary on longevity?

   18. DSDr David Sinclair31:44

       Oh, yeah. I mean, the, the classic quote is, uh, "It's as bad as smoking." Now, that may or may not be true, but it's certainly bad for you. I can speak from my own experience that I sat down for two years to write Lifespan, the book. By the end of it, I couldn't walk properly. I had a cramped up piriformis muscle that runs through your hip bone. And it, it took about o- o- over a year to fix it, and, uh, that's just one example of, of the problems you can have from sitting. But, you know, if you're sitting, it means that you're not moving your hea- you know, training your heart. That's the main problem. And also you get the obesity that comes with it, or the, the weight gain. And there's very few things in this life you can do to accelerate your body's clock faster, uh, than to gain, uh, a lot of, uh, white adipose tissue or, or, you know, s- uh, fat on your body. Now, I'm, I'm not, you know, telling everybody they have to be, you know, have a six-pack. That's not th- really the point. That's a, that's a choice. Um, but you want to maintain a healthy weight. Um, BMI for me, optimally, looking at the science, is around 23. Um, different races and sexes are different, of course. Uh, but the point is that there is an optimal weight for longevity that you can hit. Um, I write about it in Lifespan, if you want to look up the references and all of that. Um, but I was talking about this with, uh, Joe Rogan, uh, just last week, that, you know, w- we talk about being healthy weight and lean and, and, and optimizing our bodies n- not because we want to shame anybody else who isn't. I mean, I, I've been pudgy for some of my life. What we, we do it out of love. We really just want everybody to feel the way we do and have the confidence that we do, and that comes from working a little hard, sometimes going without some things that you'd love to eat or do, uh, or doing some things you don't want to do. Um, but in the end, it's so much, it's so worth it. And the gains you get at the end of your life, uh, will r- really make it worthwhile.

   19. CWChris Williamson33:52

       But think about anyone that's in a new, that's found a new productivity app, right? Or joined a cult or joined a new religious movement that they, makes them feel whole, makes them feel good. They become evangelists for that movement, right? "Dude, you got to try this new note-taking app. You got to try this new workout. You got to come to this new nightclub or whatever it might be, because I want you to experience the thing that I've had." Then again, you are right. It seems like, um, for some reason, the empathetic position in terms of trying to get people into a position of health doesn't really seem, it doesn't feel like that gets sort of felt. It feels dictatorial and, and oppressive as opposed to empathetic and encouraging.

   20. DSDr David Sinclair34:34

       Yeah. Well, you and I are trying to hit the right tone here, and, and I think that it's worth saying again, it, it's hard to go from a standing start to extremes. You just have to do better every day, and you'll fail some days. I'm not perfect, um, and nobody is. But as long as you keep at it, it's all about every day trying to do better. Um, and in fact that, that's, that's the goal in life anyway at everything you do, but for health, it's really important because our bodies are trying to fight us. Our bodies want to sit down. They want to eat sugary and fat- fatty foods. And the food industry designs the food to activate those pleasure centers. So it, you know, we've got, got the, uh, the marketers and, and, uh, food producers against us. And I'm trying to even out, uh, level the playing field here.

   21. CWChris Williamson35:22

       What was it you said? "Fuck the limbic system."

   22. DSDr David Sinclair35:25

       (laughs) Yeah.

   23. CWChris Williamson35:27

       (laughs)

   24. DSDr David Sinclair35:27

       That's right. Don't do what it says. Otherwise, all we'd be doing would be eating, sleeping, and having sex.

   25. CWChris Williamson35:33

       Yeah.

   26. DSDr David Sinclair35:33

       I know that sounds great, but you're not going to live that long, unfortunately, uh, especially if, uh, if you're doing them all at the same time.

8. 35:42 – 41:40

   Emotional Well-being

   1. CWChris Williamson35:42

      (laughs) So what about emotional well-being? What, what, how does that relate to longevity? Obviously, it's very messy. I guess, as someone coming at it from a more scientific perspective, is that harder to study?

   2. DSDr David Sinclair35:56

      Uh, what is?

   3. CWChris Williamson35:57

      So emotional well-being relating to longevity.

   4. DSDr David Sinclair35:59

      Yeah, I see what you mean. Uh, s- it's really important because the, there's a certain amount of stress that's, mental stress that's good for you. Um, keeping on edge, having a purpose in life, being excited, that's all good. But you can overdo it and have anxiety. A lot of people do, especially having come through this pande- pandemic.... that will release cortisol, among other inflammatory stimulators, uh, which will accelerate aging. There's really no question that, uh, an animal that's stressed lives shorter. Um, if anyone who's kept, uh, fish in an aquarium can see that the stressed-out fish that get picked on not only are smaller and have less color, but they don't live as long either. So you don't want to be that fish. Um, and so what I've done, to use myself as an example, is work very hard to overcome my anxiety. I am naturally anxious. I'm an overachiever. I worry about every mistake that I make, even a misspelled word on an email. But I've had to realize that life isn't that serious. You know, a serious day is when you see one of your family members die in front of you, and that happened to me. Everything else, it's a good day. You know, if you wake up in the morning, your heart is beating, uh, you've got friends, you've got your health, it's, it's a good day no matter what.

   5. CWChris Williamson37:17

      That perspective is so important. And it really is difficult, I think, to keep a hold of that, especially over the last year. Everyone's got so neurotic, right? Less novelty, less, uh, time around other people, less being taken out of your own head.

   6. DSDr David Sinclair37:32

      Well, yeah. Uh, it's been said, and I agree, that, that mental health is gonna be the, the disease of the 21st century, 'cause we've taken care of a lot of other issues. Um, but the world we built around us, topic of my next book, is extremely stressful. Um, there's no doubt. And, and social media contributes to that, and it's designed to be addictive. Um, you know, myself, I, I'm on social media, and I have to be very careful not to get distracted by it too much 'cause there's act- there's actual work to do.

   7. CWChris Williamson37:59

      Shit to be done, yeah.

   8. DSDr David Sinclair38:00

      And a- and 150,000 people die every day from age-related diseases, so I got to focus. Um, but anyway, the, the, the stress is there, and it's nobody's fault. But there are ways that we can overcome it. There's mental exercises, there's meditation, there's breathing. Uh, these are, these are things. And online therapy is really taking off, uh, and so if you, if you do need help, check those out, 'cause I think they're gonna be a real revolution in, in mental health.

   9. CWChris Williamson38:28

      Betterhelp.com/modernwisdom for 10% off your first month. Um, I read a study, uh, calling it a study is, is giving it far too much credence, but I read an article that said that, um, people without dogs or families die soonest. People who have families live longer. People who have families and dogs live longer again. But people that only have dogs live longest of all. Do you think that's true?

   10. DSDr David Sinclair38:57

       Gee.

   11. CWChris Williamson38:57

       (laughs)

   12. DSDr David Sinclair38:57

       I know that having a dog makes you live longer. I know that having friends makes you live longer. And that data is really clear, looking at people across their life. I didn't know that just having a dog makes you live longer.

   13. CWChris Williamson39:08

       (laughs) Yeah, has anyone thought that it might be the friends that are holding you back that are just a byproduct of the dog? The dog's got friends. You gotta walk the dog with the dog's friends. Get rid of the friends. Sweet, you and the dog.

   14. DSDr David Sinclair39:19

       Well, uh, yeah, you know, I'll gi- I'll give you a, a scientist's interpretation. Uh, dogs don't lie to you. And we spend a lot of our time worrying about motivation, and is someone gonna be loyal? Are they gonna reciprocate? Dogs are just there. You don't have to worry. So that, that whole part of being a human and interacting with humans, if you take that out of the equation, I bet you, you lead a much less stressful life.

   15. CWChris Williamson39:48

       I think as well, having an animal that is dependent on you... I'm still just all about Chris, mostly. But the times (laughs) that I spend around my buddies that have got kids or dogs or whatever, it really does just force you to remember, like, "I am not all that's going on in the universe. There is other things out there. I can focus my attention onto this other animal that's dependent on me, and I've got to look after it. And I... it, it has needs. It's not just about you." And I guess that that neuroticism, that overthinking, that over-

   16. DSDr David Sinclair40:19

       Mm-hmm.

   17. CWChris Williamson40:20

       ... uh, uh, assessing of what's going on, it's gonna help you to, to get that down. So having a dog is a mindfulness exercise is what I'm saying.

   18. DSDr David Sinclair40:26

       Yeah, for sure. And it gives you purpose. Having a purpose in life is definitely helpful. And if you don't have a dog or you don't want a dog, find what you love and just do that. And you'll live longer, and you know, it's a, it's a great thing when you can do it. And that's another reason to have longer lives, healthier lives, because if you don't like the career that you started in your 20s, take some time off and start again. You... at 50, you know, I, I could potentially have another 50 to go just getting started.

   19. CWChris Williamson40:54

       Didn't your dad change his career at 72 or something like that?

   20. DSDr David Sinclair40:58

       Yeah, it was closer to 76 actually, and he's still going strong at 81. Yeah, he's a real beacon of hope, I call him.

   21. CWChris Williamson41:06

       Good example to set. H- have you been able to study the effect of loneliness or companionship on your mice? Is that something that you can do, or is it, is it kinda hard?

   22. DSDr David Sinclair41:17

       Um ... we haven't, but we do cage mice either separately or in groups. I haven't seen that it makes a difference. Um, but then again, I haven't paid attention either. Uh, next time I come on, I'll have the answer for you. I'll... I need to text someone in my lab, uh, who actually does the, the real work. I just get to talk about it.

9. 41:40 – 47:26

   David's New Supplements

   1. DSDr David Sinclair41:40

   2. CWChris Williamson41:40

      Yeah, I get you. Y- you mentioned, I think it was on Rogan's show, where you said that, um, sort of under the age of 25, you thought that, um, supplementation and things like that perhaps were not quite so necessary, at least with regards to, I think, specifically NMN or NAD boosters and stuff like that. If you were, you know, 20s to, to sort of early 30s, would it just be focusing on diet, training, finding yourself some good friends, and, and sort of getting some life skills? Or is there something else that you'd do?

   3. DSDr David Sinclair42:09

      Uh, get a dog. Yeah.

   4. CWChris Williamson42:10

      Yes. Get a dog. Everyone, this is the front end of the funnel for dogs. Affiliate link, dogs.com/modernwisdom. (laughs) 10% off your first dog.

   5. DSDr David Sinclair42:20

      Yeah. Well, um, we're, we're also building a company, uh, that has dog longevity products, uh, supplements.

   6. CWChris Williamson42:27

      (laughs)

   7. DSDr David Sinclair42:27

      So watch, watch out for that.... uh, but yeah, in your 20s, I usually go by what's worked for me. In my 20s, I was a, a gym rat. I did aerobics, I did yoga. I watched what I ate. I didn't eat breakfast. I tried not to eat too much bad food, you know, but as a 20-year-old, you can eat pizza once in a while. So that, that worked for me, and I think that it makes sense given that the body's protective defenses against aging are still pretty high when you're young. NAD levels are higher. So you should be okay. Um, can I say that would, would not help to supplement? No. Uh, we don't have any idea, but it's, I think it's more important to start in your 30s based on my experience. Um, and you know, there is still a risk with all supplements. There's no molecule that's perfectly safe. Even fish oil, I think has warnings on it. So, um, if you're 20 and you're gonna do this for your whole life, that's a greater risk than someone like me who's 50, you could argue.

   8. CWChris Williamson43:33

      Yeah, that's interesting because out of the tails, the extremes of your usage, if there is a, a negligible background risk to something that you're using, if you use it 5,000 times instead of 10,000 times, the likelihood of that risk has been chopped in half, right?

   9. DSDr David Sinclair43:49

      It is. But if it's still only one in a million or one in a billion, it doesn't really matter. I mean, we know what's gonna happen to us if we don't do anything, and that's, that's tragic and scary. Um, so, you know, in terms of the weighing up the risk, I don't understand people who say, "Oh, I don't wanna take, take resveratrol 'cause we don't have any proof that it works." Well, dude, it costs two cents a day, it's never hurt anybody as far as we know, and what's gonna happen if you don't? So that's fine, but I'll miss you when you're gone.

   10. CWChris Williamson44:20

       Could we go through your daily supplement routine now? We did one, two and a half years ago, and I'm really interested to try and compare. So morning to night, what are you-

   11. DSDr David Sinclair44:28

       Mm-hmm.

   12. CWChris Williamson44:29

       ... what are you currently taking, uh, doses and suchlike?

   13. DSDr David Sinclair44:33

       Yeah. Well, actually, it hasn't changed since I wrote, uh, Lifespan 18 months ago. So page 304, see the list. Um, I've added a few things. I work out more. I'm doing more weights three times a day. Supplementation, still NMN, resveratrol, some metformin, uh, vitamin D.

   14. CWChris Williamson44:51

       Baby aspirin?

   15. DSDr David Sinclair44:53

       The baby aspirin, definitely. That's, if nothing else, protective against colon cancer, but probably other stuff too. I like to keep inflammation down. That's a hallmark of aging. Um, so I've added, um, quercetin, uh, which is a molecule related to resveratrol, which is also, uh, suppresses the activity of senescent cells. Um, and there's another one that I'm experimenting with, uh, to have a look what happens, and I... Trust me, I'm, I'm, I'm a doctor, right? (laughs) Uh, I'm a, I'm a PhD. I monitor myself. I, I know my body better than probably anyone on the planet, few exceptions, but I, I know when something negatively affects me or positively, and so I, I can do these experiments on myself. So the, the one that I'm testing out is fisetin, F-I-S-E-T-I-N, fisetin. We showed in 2003 and 2005 in two Nature papers that it extends li- the lifespan of animals, uh, small animals, worms and flies. But nevertheless, it's been now shown that it's senolytic, it kills off the senescent cells in the body, at least in mice, probably in humans based on some human data. And so I'm looking at that. Um, other than that, that, that's my life. I, I definitely eat less now. I've ski- I'm skipping lunch, not just breakfast routinely and really enjoying that.

   16. CWChris Williamson46:15

       Have you got any idea what sort of calories typically on a day you would end up eating, total?

   17. DSDr David Sinclair46:21

       No, I probably would have one drink, so probably either a red wine or a whiskey at night with a salad, some cheese, little bit, maybe bit of shrimp, maybe some chicken if I'm eating out, but probably not often. Uh, but that's it. I, I tend not to eat more than half a regular meal at dinner compared to what I see everyone else eat. So-

   18. CWChris Williamson46:44

       And that's once a day?

   19. DSDr David Sinclair46:45

       Once a day, yeah.

   20. CWChris Williamson46:47

       Wow.

   21. DSDr David Sinclair46:47

       And then I'm chewing on gum and drinking tea the rest of the time. W- I do have a bit of yogurt in the morning, which I freely admit it's-

   22. CWChris Williamson46:55

       That's to mix your resveratrol in, right?

   23. DSDr David Sinclair46:57

       Yeah, 'cause they're, all these molecules, the polyphenols that come from plants, quercetin, fisetin, um, resveratrol, even curcumin, uh, especially curcumin, they're like brick dust. They don't, they don't get absorbed. They're, they, they're crunchy. So you have to mix them with something, olive oil or yogurt, so that they, they get absorbed. And I know this from human clinical trials, I'm not just making this stuff up. And if you, so if you have resveratrol with a bit of food and fatty food, you get five times the levels

10. 47:26 – 51:33

    The Longevity Movement

    1. DSDr David Sinclair47:26

       in the blood.

    2. CWChris Williamson47:28

       One of the things that I was really fascinated by after our first conversation was how passionate people were in the comments section, and also messages and, and stuff that I got, and then further conversations about longevity that I've had over the last couple of years. Do you notice this sort of within the longevity community that there is... It's quite a animated group. Why do you think that is?

    3. DSDr David Sinclair47:54

       Uh, well, it's, it's certainly growing. The number of people that are into this and excited by it, um, and the number of people who've now read my book, which is, it's gonna be close to a million by now across the world in 20 languages, which is really mind-blowing that, um-

    4. CWChris Williamson48:08

       Ridiculous, yeah.

    5. DSDr David Sinclair48:10

       So there is this, um, zeitgeist, uh, or you could call it a mega-trend of people caring about their bodies and, and realizing that aging is in their own... the pace of aging is in o- in our own hands. I, I like to say 80% of it is based on studies of twins. Um, but yeah, they're very enthusiastic and we're getting more and more enthusiastic because the technologies and the discoveries and the knowledge about how to slow down and even reverse aging-... are coming out fast and furious, and I, I'm trying to read them, sort through them, and give the best of them out, uh, to the public on social media. But it, it's head spinning what's happening. You know, this paper that we published in December in Nature, which I n- I have a copy here. Pretty excited. We got the cover, so here, here we go.

    6. CWChris Williamson49:00

       Turning Back Time: Reprogramming Retinal Cells Can Reverse Age-Related Vision Loss. This is this thing that you did in mice whose, uh, retinas you crushed, right? And then you...

    7. DSDr David Sinclair49:11

       Yeah. It's, it's even better than that. We can rebuild a r- um, an optic nerve, but we treated glaucoma, and also we just took old mice that were blind, and for the first time, restored their vision back to normal. So what this tells you is you can reset the age of a tissue without any issues, um, that tissues that are old and we think are gone are recoverable. And so what this tells us is that aging, first of all, there's a backup copy of the information to be young again, stored in our bodies somewhere. We are looking for where it is. But there is a reset switch that we found, and that as long as you know the trick, it's really easy. Any student, even a high school student could do this experiment. Preferably not on them, on their parents, but, uh-

    8. CWChris Williamson49:53

       (laughs)

    9. DSDr David Sinclair49:54

       ... it's not that hard once you know, and I think we've, we've reached a turning point in being able to control the pace of aging. In my lab, we can accelerate aging in a mouse. We can reverse it. We're reversing age, not just in the eye now, but in the ear, in the brain, recovering the ability to learn. Um, so th- this is super exciting, and it's taking the academic world by storm. There are a lot of labs that have jumped into this field, at least four Nobel Prize winners are now working on this, who've won awards for different things but now are working on this, and more money coming in than ever before, both in labs, but also in companies, there's a lot of investment. So all of this, I think, I think if we look back at the history of the 21st century, this'll dominate the first 20 years, and then what I'm talking about will be the most exciting thing over the next 20 years.

    10. CWChris Williamson50:47

        Is everyone just holding onto your coattails?

    11. DSDr David Sinclair50:51

        You mean riding them or holding them? I don't-

    12. CWChris Williamson50:52

        Holding them, just desperately trying to keep a hold of, of whatever-

    13. DSDr David Sinclair50:55

        Oh.

    14. CWChris Williamson50:55

        ... you're doing and thinking that's, yeah, where you've got all of these new people coming in, investment money, researchers.

    15. DSDr David Sinclair51:01

        Well, you know, I'm certainly, uh, trying my best to, to bring the world along with me. But I can't take credit for it. You know, there's hundreds of researchers around the world, seriously. Uh, and they don't go on podcasts so you don't hear about them as much. But they're there, and they've worked really hard, and they're brilliant, and we, when we get together, it's an amazing synergy because w- often we're working on different pieces of the puzzle, and they're finally coming together into one single hypothesis that hopefully can explain why we age, and as I wrote in my book, why we don't have

11. 51:33 – 52:54

    Covid-19 Vaccine

    1. DSDr David Sinclair51:33

       to.

    2. CWChris Williamson51:34

       What are your thoughts on the COVID vaccine? Have we got any sort of-

    3. DSDr David Sinclair51:37

       Oh.

    4. CWChris Williamson51:37

       ... concerns there?

    5. DSDr David Sinclair51:40

       Uh, no. N- no, nothing serious. Um, I, I talked a lot about COVID in the beginning of the pandemic, and then, uh-

    6. CWChris Williamson51:47

       I noticed, yeah. And then it, and then it really sort of, you seemed like you'd done your work and then stopped.

    7. DSDr David Sinclair51:53

       Well, like a lot of people, um, who had kids, I needed to focus on my family. So I did that, and they're all good, and so I'm back, back out. But, uh, so I know enough to be dangerous about COVID. The vaccine, I know the people who make, literally invented and the people who make the, the Moderna vaccine, good friends of mine. Um, there's, there, it, it's not a concern. I mean, seriously, if, if you're worried about that, you should be worried about crossing the street. Um, there's, there's, it's, it's more likely you'll get hit by lightning than something bad will happen to you from a vaccine. There's n- there's no chips from Bill Gates in them. It's a miracle of science, and we should embrace it. You know, scientists have saved the world here. We would've been done for. We would've lost many, many millions, tens of millions of lives if there wasn't a vaccine. So I, I, I really don't subscribe to the idea that, uh, we should avoid vaccination. Or we, we may as well just go back to the Middle Ages.

12. 52:54 – 57:59

    5G & Radiation

    1. DSDr David Sinclair52:54

    2. CWChris Williamson52:54

       What about 5G? Everyone's got problems with that, having your 5G phone nearby or in your pocket. I've certainly seen some videos and stuff in terms of the radiation that comes off them. How does that affect longevity?

    3. DSDr David Sinclair53:08

       Well, we don't know. We don't even know how, how going through those airport scanners affects longevity. Uh, I try to avoid them if I can.

    4. CWChris Williamson53:15

       I, so here's a funny story. I need to interject there. You told me (laughs) , you told me that you (laughs) request a, um, manual search, whatever it's called. I want, I'd rather not go through the scanner. I'll take this thing. Um, flying out of Boston, leaving your very office and your lab, uh, I, I requested that very same thing, uh, to which the security guard looked at me. He said, "Are you sure sir?" I said, "Yes." Put my bags in the thing and tried to take me into a side room in which I would have had to have fully stripped down.

    5. DSDr David Sinclair53:53

       Oh, unbelievable.

    6. CWChris Williamson53:54

       I can't believe-

    7. DSDr David Sinclair53:55

       That's- that's terrible.

    8. CWChris Williamson53:55

       ... that you tried to stitch me up to get me-

    9. DSDr David Sinclair53:58

       (laughs)

    10. CWChris Williamson53:58

        ... to go into a r- (laughs)

    11. DSDr David Sinclair54:01

        You're being mean. Oh, Chris, come on. (laughs)

    12. CWChris Williamson54:02

        (laughs) I'm adamant. I'm adamant. I thought to myself, "That Dr. David Sinclair has tried to stitch me up so that this m- big burly man takes me into a, a room and makes me take all my clothes off."

    13. DSDr David Sinclair54:12

        Well, you're onto me. You do know it was April 1st when you visited.

    14. CWChris Williamson54:15

        (laughs)

    15. DSDr David Sinclair54:19

        Uh-huh. But, uh, I, I've gone through scanners 'cause currently my clearance isn't, isn't updated. Uh, and I wear this patch on my chest, and they freak out when they see I've got a flashing light on my chest. They think I'm Iron Man or something.

    16. CWChris Williamson54:32

        Not far off.

    17. DSDr David Sinclair54:33

        Well, 5G-

    18. CWChris Williamson54:33

        Um, okay, so 5, 5G's gonna be all right then. We're not, we're not concerned about 5G?

    19. DSDr David Sinclair54:36

        Yeah, I'm, I'm not worried. I've looked at the data. There's nothing that concerns me. If there is radiation, I think we should study it.... but, uh, I, I don't think there's any evidence that it's gonna be harmful. It doesn't damage DNA, which is what my main concern is, 'cause that will age you.

    20. CWChris Williamson54:50

        What about Bluetooth headphones, stuff like that, same?

    21. DSDr David Sinclair54:53

        Yeah, same. It's, it's low-dose radiation. You know, y- you can, you can worry about this stuff, um, or you can just get on with it. The scanners I particularly worry about because at least the early versions of those machines had penetrating radiation at a wavelength that wasn't healthy, and Europe banned them before the U.S. did. Um, and so I don't panic if I have to go through the scanners these days, but just if I have a choice and I can skip it, I will. But yeah, for phones and all of that, Bluetooth, tsk, no. But I would like to test various radiation, um, types on mice for their lifespan, 'cause it -you've hit on a good thing, which is often whether it comes to radiation or molecules that are in the, in the environment, nobody tests the longevity of an animal, 'cause it, it takes too long. It takes three years. Um, and so even while short term it doesn't have any effect, it might speed up aging or do something else.

    22. CWChris Williamson55:52

        Yeah, that's an interesting one. I found out that, uh, a 20-minute phone call with your phone to your head is the same as being in a room with a wifi router for an entire year. So that was an interesting comparison in terms of the amount of radiation that comes off.

    23. DSDr David Sinclair56:08

        Right. Well, if it doesn't change the epigenome, and that is what I believe drives the majority of aging, then I'm not concerned. But that's a good, good experiment actually, Chris. We could take these emitters, whether it's a phone or a router or maybe even a scanner at the airport, and put, just put cells in there and see if it disrupts the epigenome structure, so the three-dimensional structure of DNA. And if it does, then we are, then we probably should be testing a mouse or two. Um, but if there's no effect, it'd be great to publish that, 'cause I think that that would allay a lot of fears.

    24. CWChris Williamson56:43

        My first published paper. I can't wait. Is this what you do?

    25. DSDr David Sinclair56:46

        (laughs)

    26. CWChris Williamson56:46

        Do you go to bed, do you go to bed at night and think, like, "What my, what mad experiment am I gonna do in the morning?" The same way that I go to bed thinking of questions for podcast guests, you just think about what mad experiment about longevity you're gonna do the next day?

    27. DSDr David Sinclair56:57

        Of course. That, this is what I'm paid to do.

    28. CWChris Williamson57:00

        But then you have an army of people that just go and do it. You just, what do you do? Do you WhatsApp someone and say, "Right, I wanna put, can we put some cells in the scanner, please? Ring the airport, see if you can get ahold of one, make it happen?"

    29. DSDr David Sinclair57:10

        Yeah. I tend to be pretty stubborn. If I want to do something, I won't stop till, uh, somebody says yes, so ... Yeah, I've already looked into it. You can get these scanners. Uh, they're fairly expensive, but they, th- they have them around the place. Um, I know people at NASA I could probably call.

    30. CWChris Williamson57:26

        Get all the ones from Europe that they banned. Get those. They'll be flogging them.
13. 57:59 – 59:01

    Can You Reverse Grey Hair?

    1. CWChris Williamson57:59

       I saw on your Instagram something about being able to stop or reverse gray hair. What's going on there?

    2. DSDr David Sinclair58:06

       Oh, yeah. So that was an, that was another lab that did that, but it was really interesting. So that there are people, it's pretty common actually, that people can go temporarily gray from a lot of stress in their life, and so the hair will start to grow gray out the bottom. And then if they relax, go on a vacation, it'll go black again or brown, and you get this hair that's brown, gray, brown-

    3. CWChris Williamson58:28

       Like they've got roots coming through and a, a really bad hair dye.

    4. DSDr David Sinclair58:31

       (laughs) Could be. Uh, anyway, so the, these, this researcher and his team plucked these hairs out and looked at what was going on at the molecular level and could see that there were changes that were associated with aging and its reversal. And which is exciting because it, if we can understand how this happens, we could not just reverse gray hair, uh, but also other aspects of aging in the body. And I, I like that idea that you can use hair as a model for age reversal. It's easier than re- restoring eyesight, put it that way.

14. 59:01 – 1:01:38

    David's Ultimate Goals

    1. DSDr David Sinclair59:01

    2. CWChris Williamson59:02

       You tweeted the other day saying, "Life's a journey. Pick a worthwhile destination." What's a destination that you're working toward?

    3. DSDr David Sinclair59:12

       Uh, well, the, it's really simple, that the world is a better place. Um, down one level from that, that everybody in the world can live a better life, um, a healthier life, longer life, because of something that I did. Uh, more practically, it could be simp- as simple as writing my books to give people advice on how to take their life into control, under control. And, uh, ultimately I'd love to have a medicine or two that can treat diseases and aging itself. Um, and, uh, I feel like something is ... I mean, the, the book Lifespan certainly was, was more popular than i- I ever imagined. So I can tick that one off the list. But the destination really, it's an interesting destination because I don't know how far into the future we can go. Um, I'm, I'm not making this up as I go along, but it is changing with every week, new discoveries that are coming out in my life and others, that are pushing that destination further out into the future and allowing me to do things with my life that I never thought that I'd have the chance to do.

    4. CWChris Williamson1:00:17

       You and Beyoncé, mate.

    5. DSDr David Sinclair1:00:21

       (laughs)

    6. CWChris Williamson1:00:21

       David Sinclair, ladies and gentlemen. Uh, people want to keep up to date with your stuff, where should they go?

    7. DSDr David Sinclair1:00:27

       Also that we, you can donate as little as 10 bucks to my lab to help us buy some of this state art, uh, state-of-the-art equipment. That's sinclairlab, sinclairlab.com. And then on social media, um, Twitter is davidasinclair, and Instagram is davidsinclairphd. And I try to be as entertaining and educational as I can be. And oh, Chris, these, these sayings, somebody wrote a negative thing, as you do on Twitter, that, "Oh, scientists think they're philosophers now." Uh, yeah, we do, but (laughs) not only that, these are sayings, if you read them, these are what I teach my students. And I figured why just train 20 people at a time when I can give it to potentially millions?

    8. CWChris Williamson1:01:13

       I love it, man. Until next time.

    9. DSDr David Sinclair1:01:17

       I'd love to come back. Thanks, Chris. This is awesome as usual.

    10. CWChris Williamson1:01:20

        Thank you very much for tuning in. If you enjoyed that, then press here for a selection of the best clips from the podcast over the last few months. And don't forget to subscribe. It makes me very happy indeed. Peace.

Episode duration: 1:01:39