Modern WisdomEverything You Need To Know About Getting Lean - Stan Efferding (4K)
EVERY SPOKEN WORD
155 min read · 30,635 words- 0:00 – 6:42
Why Are People Getting Fatter?
- CWChris Williamson
Stan Efferding, welcome to the show.
- SEStan Efferding
Thanks for having me.
- CWChris Williamson
What do you think are the main causes of the obesity epidemic? Why is it that the average American's got so much fatter over the last few decades?
- SEStan Efferding
I don't wanna talk about what Stan thinks. I wanna talk about what we see as probably what the academic community's consensus is. Um, I'm kind of a collator of information as a personal trainer for 30 years, and I wanna deliver that information to my clients and make sure it's evidence-based, and so I'll, I'll refrain from opinions. I've tried that in the past, and I've been (clears throat) probably correctly, um, and soundly (laughs) uh, informed of my, my inaccuracy. So, uh, at, at the core of it all, we're consuming more calories than we used to 50 years ago. We know that from all the research. Um, and the majority of those calories, or the, the cause of that seems to be, um, hyper-palatable, ultra-processed foods, and it seems to have interfered with our ability to, um, uh, become satiated. And, um, so we're eating too much and we're in this food environment where that's really easy to do. It's hard to shut it off. And so it really is calories, and I know that sparks a whole bunch of, uh, uh, bad feelings from folks, and it, it kinda gets you those straw man arguments about KECO, "calories in, calories out" is, uh, you know, it doesn't work, and, and all of that. But it's a little m- it's more complex than that. Um, I've said, "Move more, eat less" is truthful but not useful.
- CWChris Williamson
Necessary but not sufficient, perhaps?
- SEStan Efferding
Yeah. Well, it's just, i- it is what's happening and it is the solution, uh, but, you know, it's, it's simple but it's not easy, and so there's a whole host of factors I think we can dive into on that. But fact of the matter is, it is calories. The KECO is an oversimplification. It's actually an inner bal- energy balance equation that accounts for all of these variables which we may talk about, the total daily energy intake minus the total daily energy expenditure. And there's a whole host of things that go into both sides of that equation, uh, that a- it really accounts for, uh, just about everything that, that, uh, that goes into weight gain.
- CWChris Williamson
Why is "calories in, calories out" and diet fads and discussions in general so emotionally charged? I would think that this would just be, i- it's, uh, I'm not calling you a good or a bad person. There's no reason for you to believe that you are anything. This isn't a comment on you. And yet diet discussions online are some of the most virulent, uh, uh, uh, and aggressive that you see.
- SEStan Efferding
They really are. I think part of it might just be that we want to find, uh, I said pin the tail on the donkey, find one single source that maybe is, uh, something that we could fix if we just got rid of it. Uh, the carbohydrate-insulin model spawned from that, where if you eat a grape and your insulin goes up that you're gonna gain fat (laughs) and you can't lose, uh, y- you're g- you can't lose fat. Uh, m- certain, demonizing certain foods became very popular. I mean, there's still a lot of that going on, whether it's fructose or seed oils or, uh, anything that might correlate with overconsumption. Um, I think also that when you talk about "calories in, calories out," it seems to blame the victim, the individual who's having a hard time losing weight. Um, they become, uh, you blame them. "You're overeating. You're lazy. You're undisciplined," uh, you know, that kind of thing, uh, without paying attention to all the other factors that go into that. And it's just an oversimplification.
- CWChris Williamson
I suppose the "calories in, calories out," when you fold in how hyper-palatable these new foods are, it's not putting all of the blame at the feet of the victim. It's like, look, this is a, a relatively unfair battle because of how well-engineered these foods-
- SEStan Efferding
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... are for you to overeat. Now ultimately, it's you that put it in your mouth. But-
- SEStan Efferding
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... it is a more difficult uphill climb.
- SEStan Efferding
Agreed. And another problem is, is that while, well, we have a genetic predisposition, obviously, now we're, we're starting to see that, uh, uh, certain people have different hunger signaling-
- CWChris Williamson
Ghrelin release.
- SEStan Efferding
... ghrelin release, leptin sensitivity or lack thereof. Um, and certain people, while we don't believe their basal metabolic rate is significantly different, we do see that some people are more active, what we call non-exercise activity thermogenesis, than others. My son and daughter's like that. My son, you have to almost check and see if he's breathing when he's sitting there watching TV sometimes. He's just-
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- SEStan Efferding
... he's like a zombie. And my daughter can't sit down, and she's humming all the time and tapping her toes and (hums) bouncing around and skipping, and she has to get up and, uh, two d- very different, um, you know, movement patterns. And people with high non-exercise activity thermogenesis can burn over 1,000 calories a day more than somebody with low non-exercise activity thermogenesis. We see that in active individuals versus, uh, say sedentary jobs versus, uh, say a construction worker or a waitress as opposed to a desk worker. So we see a lot of, uh, calories can be accounted for in that component of the equation, the energy balance equation. So those things all play, play into it, and then there's also a big social com- component to talk about. Some folks in lower socioeconomic environments are exposed to more of this, uh, hyper-palatable, ultra-processed food, uh, from an earlier age. It's, uh, it's very affordable. It's, uh, very convenient and accessible, uh, and that, uh, that has a huge impact.
- CWChris Williamson
What role does the formative years of growing up have on our palate and what we enjoy? There's a, a period of life, I think it's between about 10 and 15, and the music that you listen to during that time is very formative for the kind of music that you will enjoy throughout the rest of your life.Are you aware if there's an equivalent when it comes to tastes and diets and stuff?
- SEStan Efferding
I'm not sure, but I-I think that, you know, obviously children are gonna migrate towards the kind of foods that taste the best, uh, presuming they're, uh, allowed in the home and- and whatever, to whatever degree. Um, but we all, but we do see that children, um, with obese parents who, uh, tend to, uh, gain more weight at an earlier age and have a higher likelihood of becoming obese, uh, as they get older, so it is definitely a problem that has to be addressed at a very early age.
- CWChris Williamson
You mentioned
- 6:42 – 13:23
The Truth About Seed Oils
- CWChris Williamson
seed oils, which is one of the four horsemen of the diet apocalypse. I'm not sure what the other three are.
- SEStan Efferding
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Just how bad are seed oils? What's the truth about them?
- SEStan Efferding
Well, (sighs) you know, before we jumped on here, I talked about, uh, people evolve, science evolves, uh, you know, when you overlay, um, a graph of seed oil consumptions against obesity, you see a- a very strong correlation. I mean, they would just look identical. Uh, and so y- one would, you know, correlation does not equal causation. One would think that that was, uh, one of the potential causes. Everything else seems to have gone down over time. Fructose and sugar consumption seems to have stabilized or gone down over time. Uh, but seed oils, like a lot of things, um... (smacks lips) How can I best explain this? There's, uh, uh, uh, they're not all the same thing. So here's what the academic community is saying now, that we don't have any evidence that- that seed oils cause inflammation, um, in their natural form, if- if that can even be said about seed oils. There's nothing natural necessarily about them. But in so much as they cons- they- they are a part of processed foods, ultra-processed foods, about 70% of seed oils are consumed, uh, as a part of ultra-processed foods and fast foods. Now seed oils reheated, think french fries, you know, any of those, uh, Chicken McNuggets, whatever, in those big vats of oil that you reheat, those do show a inflammatory response and increase the cardiovascular disease risk. So that- that is a problem. I did a video many years ago, (sighs) uh, it said, "The Real Poison That's Killing Us." So I'm- I'm- I'm certainly guilty of having, uh, put all seed oils into one bucket. Uh, but in that video, I did say, um, "I'm biased. They are a poison to me." Seed oils, I discovered many years later, uh, give me diarrhea, and I go into great detail if anybody wants to know, if it's not TMI, in my video. (laughs) Uh, it's one of those where you're running to the bathroom and you can't quite make it and you have to stop and do that Kegel exercise or something bad's gonna happen before you get there. It's one of those deals, and it's very unique to seed oils, and I know when I've consumed too much of them, the flat iron steak cooked in a big pool of seed oil at a restaurant. Otherwise, you- you know, I wouldn't have a problem if it was grilled on a- on a flame, uh, or when I cook it at home in a- uh, in a- in a Ninja Grill or something. Very different response. Even going to restaurants and getting... You know, I own a meal prep company, uh, and so we have to, uh, we have to get eggs for the meal prep company, and some of those eggs come in five-gallon buckets, like at, you know, some of the restaurants that you would eat at, a Denny's or- or the like, and they just ladle the eggs and put them on the grill. And so I would ask, "Please no oils," 'cause I'm allergic to these oils. Well, come to find out, a lot of those buckets of eggs, we had a hard time finding them, uh, that didn't, weren't already adulterated with seed oils, uh, whether it was canola oil or, uh, s- soybean oil, uh, partly for preservation 'cause it is preservative, but probably partly because that's, uh, an inexpensive additive which would, you know, increase, um, I guess, the profit margin on the five-gallon bucket. When I would consume those, because there's already seed oil in the mixture, then I would have the same problem, and so it's been very difficult for me over the years.
- CWChris Williamson
(sighs)
- SEStan Efferding
Uh, I used to love to go to some of these, uh, uh, what are those all-you-can-eat grills that they have with the... (gasps) And they, you know, just get steak and chicken and- and, uh, you know, rice and have them grill them, but they would put a big ladle of these oils on there to cook it in, and I would have gastric distress. So as a personal matter, I've- I've objected quite strongly. I went down the, uh, Weston A. Price rabbit hole and Nina Teicholz rabbit hole for seed oils and, uh, I was, you know, I was fully on that team, uh, but the- the- the- the- the literature does not support... If you're not allergic to them like I am and you're not reheating them or over-consuming them, it doesn't support, um, any other adverse effect than that.
- CWChris Williamson
Have you got any idea how common a adverse reaction or a, uh, intolerance of seed oils is?
- SEStan Efferding
I don't. And I used to think it was relatively common 'cause a lot of people would suffer from IBS and, uh, and IBD and, uh, but I can't- I can't make that assessment. I just know that's how I respond, and I have, of course, in my business come across a lot of people who maybe felt that was the same, but I- I just don't think there's research to support it.
- CWChris Williamson
You had a problem with one of the great American institutions that I'm a massive fan of, Cheesecake Factory.
- SEStan Efferding
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
They- they diddled you. They diddled you with a burger maybe.
- SEStan Efferding
Yeah. Now I can get... One of my favorite meals that I've been promoting for years is the Monster Mash. Uh, I- I trademarked that, uh, Monster Mash, and it's just a blend of, say, uh, ground beef or bison with, uh, white rice and some bone broth, and I'll mash all that together. I might cook some peppers and throw it in there, a little bit of spinach and- and- and maybe even a scrambled egg, and I ha- this is my- my mash, is I- I make this and sell it, ship it all over the States to people, and I give it to all of my clients that, uh, uh, you know, Hafþór Björnsson and Brian Shaw and the rest of them, Lane Johnson's favorite meal, the Monster Mash. Um, and so I can get that meal at Cheesecake Factory, but...They will either baste or, uh, uh, put the burger in, y- uh, sear it first in vegetable oil before they put it on the flame grill to prevent it from burning, to, to keep it... And, uh, the same thing would be true, say, of those roasted chickens, the rotisserie chickens at Costco. They baste those with a vegetable oil because it helps prevent them from, from burning. They can cook there a little longer and... Uh, and so those are the little things I have to watch out for. So yes, Cheesecake Factory is my, my one device but, uh, because I'm so OCD and I'm a creature of habit that ever since I've been going there, I go order my little Monster Mash from them. I get a side hamburger patty, a side of white rice, uh, a side of, uh, bone broth, maybe throw in some pickles, and of course the sourdough bread is always good. And that's my, that's my favorite meal at Cheesecake. And I, I don't much participate in, in desserts. I've never been that way. Uh, needless to say, my wife and kids order something very different, uh, but that's, uh, that's my favorite spot to stop at 'cause they're generally in every big city in the country and I travel a lot.
- CWChris Williamson
I'm a Cheesecake guy.
- SEStan Efferding
Yeah. Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
I'm a big fan of Cheesecake Factory. What
- 13:23 – 26:34
What is the Vertical Diet?
- CWChris Williamson
is... Uh, uh, how do you explain to people... Let's say that somebody hasn't been introduced to The Vertical Diet before, how do you conceptualize it? How do you explain it to people?
- SEStan Efferding
Yeah. You know, The Vertical Diet is really, uh, everything I want my clients to know and to, to do. Um, it's a compilation of everything I've learned from over 30 years, from college to coaching, uh, to competing, to being coached, collaborating with great athletes, um, and then partnering with Dr. Daimon McCune, who's a PhD RDN director of dietetics at UNLV. And we got together and spent, uh, a couple o' years together producing and, uh, putting science to, uh, over 250 peer-reviewed published articles, and then, of course, references to lots of videos and, um, uh, just... Uh, I think professionals in the industry in their each, in their respective fields that help my clients, um, navigate all the things that are important, 'cause it's multifactorial. It's not just a diet, right? It's, obviously, uh, y- you know, it's nutrition, uh, it's digestion, it's, uh, sleep, hydration, injury prevention and, and rehab, uh, blood testing, um, blood sugar, blood pressure management. Uh, it's just, uh, chapter after chapter after chapter of the things that I commonly, uh, questions I've been asked and things that I want my clients to, to do to be successful in a program, 'cause it's not just one thing. You have poor sleep, your diet's not gonna fix that problem. Uh, you know, if you've got a, uh, crappy diet, uh, then, you know, everything else suffers. And so, it, uh, I try and make sure that I, uh, I cover all these bases for them. Um, of course there's a lotta individual, inter-individual variability, so I have to... Um, this feels like I'm rewriting every program when I, I deal with a client. I give them a detailed questionnaire and have them respond and I find out what their goals are, what their genetic predispositions are, you know, what they prefer in terms of foods that they like to eat and, um, when they like to eat, where they like to eat, just kind of their lifestyle, um, what constraints they might have, any injuries, uh, uh, digestive distress. Um, and I love the blood work 'cause then I might be able to see, you know, challenges that need to be, uh, overcome. Uh, and then try and make sure that they can improve each and every one of those areas that I think are important, and I ask them to send me on a daily basis, not weekly because I think by then if somebody goes off the rails for three days you, they might ghost you and you lose them. On a daily basis, I ask them to send me, uh, their hours of sleep, their morning body weight, and a picture of each meal, uh, so that... Uh, you know, it's more for their information, um, you know, their accountability, uh, that which gets measured gets improved, and than it is for my information necessarily unless I see something that's significantly awry. And then weekly, we do waist measurements and, um, progress pictures 'cause oftentimes we're the last to see our progress and if I get a client to take a progress picture on day one, two months later they're like, "I'm not making any progress." You put those side by side and generally you see a significant change that they don't see. And the scale might not tell the whole story. You might get a client only loses two pounds but they might lose four inches on their waist and, and look significantly tighter and, and maybe stronger and feel better. Uh, so all of those things factor into it.
- CWChris Williamson
From the diet side, what are the principles that you're following there? What are the, what are the thermodynamics-
- SEStan Efferding
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... of The Vertical Diet?
- SEStan Efferding
Let's see if I can go down this one, two, three. Calories are king. If you want to gain weight, you have to be in a surplus. And remember I did both bodybuilding and powerlifting throughout my career. So, I bulked up to over 300 pounds and I dieted down to single-digit body fat to compete as a bodybuilder and then, you know, bulked back up to compete as a powerlifter. So, conservatively speaking, over a 25 year of competing, so going back as far as 1988, I've gained and lost well over 1,000 pounds, and I've learned a lot of lessons along the way. I, I, I-
- CWChris Williamson
That's insane.
- SEStan Efferding
... I did, I did a lot wrong. I always say if I knew then what I know now, I would have saved myself a whole lotta trouble and probably been able to perform at a much higher level at a much younger age 'cause I didn't reach my peak until I turned 40. Uh, so, uh, calories are king. Surplus to gain weight, deficit to lose weight. Next would be your macros, protein being the most important of those. Getting sufficient protein to fuel, uh, or to build muscle or at least to retain lean mass when dieting. And protein can be manipulated to, uh, either eat less of it in order to be less satiated so you can eat more total calories. That's actually a, a strategy that we use for people who have a hard time eating enough food, uh, because it's very satiating and has a high thermic effect of food, meaning for every 100 calories you consume, you net out about 70. Uh, just the, the calorie cost of digesting protein is more so than carbs and fats-Um, or if you're trying to lose weight, we might bump that up. Instead of a gram per pound of goal weight, we might even go up to 1.2 grams for the very same reason, r- you know, flipping the script. It's more satiating and has a higher thermic effect of food, so you can f- you feel like you're eating more volume of food, but you're netting out, um, less total calories. And so, uh, so that's macros, protein being the most important of which. You have to have sufficient fats for health, to g- get to sleep, for your hormones. Uh, you start getting too low on fats, and you're gonna have some problems with both of those things, but... And now we start getting into my personal preference because fats beyond that which provide you a health benefit don't provide you a performance benefit. And so the rest, for me, is carbs. About 30, 35% protein, about 30% fat, and that's actually about a two to one protein to fat ratio. If you're gonna consume 200 grams of protein, you get in about 100 grams of fat. They're equivalent in terms of calories because you've got nine calories per gram for fat and four calories per gram for protein. But it's around 30, 35% protein, around 30% fat, and that would leave about 40% carbs, which I think are important for performance. I don't just me think that, but that's what, that's what science tells us, especially anaerobic performance, which would be, you know, strength training, sports, explosive sports, that those carbohydrates are very important for those bouts of training and performance. And so I leave room in there. I also find that that more closely, um, uh, is what's commonly consumed, although the protein's a little higher. I think people would consume more commonly around 18%. We see that, say, in the Mediterranean diet. That's about an 18% protein diet.
- CWChris Williamson
But no one accidentally eats more than about .7 or .8 grams of protein per kilo of body weight. No one accidentally d- unless you go to the buffet that y- you mentioned earlier on.
- SEStan Efferding
Right. Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Like, it has to be purposeful.
- SEStan Efferding
Yeah, and it should be. I, I believe it should be. Uh, you heard Doctor Gabriel Lyons talking about being the organ of longevity. It's a sink for glucose. I think those are great descriptors of what protein is. Uh, we also see that when you compare a 30% protein intake to an 18% in protein intake, say with the, uh, Mediterranean diet, you see improved, uh, insulin sensitivity, improved glucose numbers that, uh, again, for a couple of reasons. Uh, protein seems to decrease postprandial glycemia, particularly when you eat it first in a meal.
- CWChris Williamson
What's that?
- SEStan Efferding
After a meal, postprandial glycemia, that would be the peak elevation and duration of, uh, of blood sugars, uh, kind of measured as the area under the curve. And so when you eat protein first and you eat a large amount of protein, you have fewer fluctuations, less area under the curve of blood sugar post-meal. Uh, and so that, that tends to help for that reason as well, and likely because you're eating less of other foods if you're eating more protein. Uh, and, you know, just less what we call glycemic load, probably fewer total carbs. So that's kind of where I put my percentages. I find that, that that's, uh... And then those carbs, uh, the proteins consist of, uh, a wide variety of proteins. I like to, I like to see red meat in the diet. Uh, and we can ju- dive into that. I like to see salmon in the diet at least two or three times a week, obviously, for EPA and DHA, omega-3s. Uh, I like to see dairy in the diet, uh, preferentially yogurt. Fat-free Greek yogurt is one of my favorites. It's, uh, it's a superfood.
- CWChris Williamson
Have you got a brand of Greek yogurt that you prefer, that you rely on?
- SEStan Efferding
I like Costco's Kirkland Greek yogurt a- as fat-free because it's not chalky. It's still creamy, just as a personal preference for taste. Um, I like to see, uh, eggs. It could be an egg-egg white blend, uh, because I wanna s- keep the yolk in there for its, uh, all the vitamins and minerals in there, the choline and the biotin and the like. Um, uh, I mentioned red meat, and I should've said iron, B12, zinc, all of those things, but I'll use a leaner cut because ultimately, and I probably should've started with this, it's the overall dietary pattern that matters a lot more than individual foods. I don't think you should eat too much of anything. Uh, it could potentially leave you exposed to having too little of something else possibly. Uh, and in the case of, of say red meat, of course, there is maybe some concern that fatty meats or too high saturated fats intake may elevate LDL in some individuals, um, and therefore increase cardiovascular disease risk, and that's multifactorial. I don't, you know, presume to think that that's the only thing that matters, but, uh, that is something that we do, uh, we do pay attention to, particularly in blood work because we certainly want to keep people's LDL within the range that, uh, you know, would be... Generally, saturated fats are under 10% of total calories. It's kind of easy to do. If 30% of your total calories are fats and something like a top sirloin steak or, uh, even an egg-egg white blend, only about a third of that is saturated fat. So then you got 30% times 30%, there's your 9% below the American Heart Association's recommendation for 10%. So you can have steak and eggs every morning for breakfast along with, you know, monitoring the type of, uh, of fats that you take in along with, you know, say a fat-free Greek yogurt, which is cardioprotective. Uh, so you get some benefits from that along with some fruits, which again, cardioprotective, uh, reduces inflammation. Those, uh, citrus flavonoids are, are incredible. Uh, so the dietary pattern matters most, so variety of protein sources. The fats are generally in the protein, although it might be nice to get a little olive oil in there with your salad with dinner that, uh, uh, tends to be a lot of nice things going on with, uh, extra virgin olive oil. Uh, and then the carbohydrates, I start with high potassium carbohydrates, which would be say a daily potato, uh, has 1,000 milligrams of potassium, over twice that of a banana. Fruits are great for that, especially low sugar fruits, strawberries, blueberries, raspberries, those kinds of things, oranges. Uh, another reason I like oranges and potatoes is, uh, which this conversation should evolve into very shortly...... satiety. Um, there is a satiety index that measures the length of time certain foods keep you full. It's a subjective measurement when they just interview people based on foods that they eat. And way at the top of that list, of course, you're gonna have proteins and fibers, but you're also gonna have foods like, uh, boiled potatoes and oranges. And so I like the dual benefit of the high potassium, relatively low sugar in those fruits, um, but also the satiety benefit 'cause anybody who's in a calorie deficit, that's what I'm shooting for. I might do just the opposite if somebody's gained weight. I might pull the potato out and throw in white rice. I might pull the orange out and put in orange juice, uh, just to flip the script on that. And I don't mean to keep bouncing back and forth, but the, the diet isn't all things for all people. And so that, uh, uh, once you get, you know, and of course, you throw your salad in there. You can get some more, certainly some more potassium from spinach or whatever, you know, fiber, uh, some nuts. If you get a little bit of magnesium out of that, some mixed nuts. And that is pretty much the foundation of The Vertical Diet. If you wanna talk specifically about the kinds of foods I recommend and the macros, that's kind of all contained in that explanation.
- CWChris Williamson
This episode is brought to you by Levels. One of the single biggest predictors of how long you live and how good you'll feel while living is your metabolic health. The single best way to work out how your daily decisions are impacting your longevity and your vitality is by tracking your glucose. This is why I wear a continuous glucose monitor from Levels. It allows me to understand in real time how the foods that I'm eating are impacting my health and the way that I feel. The Levels app interprets your glucose data and gives you a score after each meal so that you can see how different meals are impacting you. And it will give you personalized diet recommendations that are right for your body. Glucose is a huge determinant of not only your vitality and your longevity, but of the way that you feel day-to-day. Using Levels means that you take the guesswork out of this. It can help you to nudge your diet towards something which is going to be better for you right now and in the long term as well. After using Levels, I realized if I have a large carb meal and I do not go for a walk afterwards, my blood glucose goes through the roof, and I don't feel so good. Head to levels.link/modernwisdom to take advantage of an exclusive offer, plus get that 90-day money back guarantee. That's levels.link/modernwisdom. Two different
- 26:34 – 30:00
Can Red Meat Kill You?
- CWChris Williamson
foods that you've touched on there, which are often demonized, red meat.
- SEStan Efferding
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Is it killing everybody?
- SEStan Efferding
Well, again, what's the dietary pattern? Are you eating a ton of really fatty meats? Bacon, butter is usually thrown into that group even though it's not a meat, but it's commonly, uh, agreed.
- CWChris Williamson
It's a side of a meat.
- SEStan Efferding
Right. Uh, tons of ribeyes. And are you susceptible? You know, what's your body composition? What's your exercise look like? Uh, are you consuming sufficient fiber?
- CWChris Williamson
Well, let's say, let's say that someone is not a total renegade with this, and they realize that they shouldn't be eating super fatty cuts of meat, that they shouldn't be cooking it in tons and tons of butter, that they shouldn't be having bags and bags and bags of bacon. There is a movement at the moment, guys like Bryan Johnson, who are, "mTOR, activating the mTOR pathway is a nightmare. I avoid meats, red meat specifically." There is concerns from the FDA. There is concerns from all manner of people who are experts in, in some circles with regards to diet that say red meat is something that you should have once a month at the absolute most.
- SEStan Efferding
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Why? W- what is it that you're seeing that they're not?
- SEStan Efferding
Uh, well, you mentioned, um... What was the first one you mentioned? Oh, mTOR stimulation. Well, that, uh, there's a difference between acute and chronic inflammation or mTOR stimulation. And the acute inflammation, uh, or stimulation of mTOR doesn't seem to be a problem. Uh, and that would be the same of protein in general. Wouldn't be specific to red meat. Any protein would stimulate mTOR. Uh, and the problem that you get is, is, is as we age, we become, uh, anabolically resistant at some point or less and less anabolically, uh, uh, what would you, sensitive. And, uh, a lot of people as they age suffer from, uh, they don't eat enough protein and they suffer from sarcopenia. And that can be a bigger problem for mortality risk than consuming red meat or any meat there, you know, for that matter. And I think, uh, if I'm citing the right person, I think Kevin Hall has done a lot of research on that, uh, and is the, and opposes that theory, uh, that theory, that longevity theory. I think that comes a little bit from Sinclair, a little bit from, um, Valter Longo, those folks. Uh, you know, it's a lot of mouse studies 'cause they have no human evidence, no, no human outcome trials showing that that, uh, is gonna, uh, limit lifespan. The problem with a lot of that research is it's usually, uh, influenced by the healthy user bias. People who tend to eat more red meat tend to smoke more, drink more, weigh more, exercise less. Uh, and they eat all the things that are associated with it, you know, the bacon double cheeseburgers with the bun and the, uh, soda pop and, and the fries. Um, and, you know, and the dessert with that and maybe a couple of beers. That's, obviously, you know, they try and control for that in some of the epidemiology. It's imperfect, and they try and stratify the risk based on other health markers. Uh, but for the most part, again, as part of a healthy diet, keeping your, you, you know, watching your LDLs. Uh, I guess the only other concern would be cancer, and that you, you mentioned that, uh, World Health Organization you may have mentioned, uh, and IARC. Uh, I find it interesting now we've got this, uh, this big blowback on
- 30:00 – 35:39
Stan’s Thoughts on Aspartame & Diet Soda
- SEStan Efferding
aspartame. The IARC came out and said that aspartame was, uh, associated with cancer risk.
- CWChris Williamson
What's your read on that?
- SEStan Efferding
Well, my read is that they studied, they look at mouse studies and, uh, with, uh, huge doses, and, uh, it's not their job to look at doses. And so, uh-
- CWChris Williamson
What was the... Do, do you know what the relative, how much a human... Is it would I have had to have consumed three and a half cases of Dr Pepper?
- SEStan Efferding
It was, it was something like 800 Cokes or something-
- CWChris Williamson
A day?
- SEStan Efferding
Yeah. To get that level of aspartame. Uh, but the point of that story is, is that, uh, and none of the, the nutrition PhDs, which is the people that I usually, uh-... Turn my ear towards when things like this come out. None of them consider this to be a concern. Uh, we do have, uh, plenty of human trials, randomized control trials, showing evidence that when you replace sugar-sweetened beverages with diet sodas, you see weight loss and therefore improved health outcomes.
- CWChris Williamson
Right. Just- let's just dig in this for one second. Uh, this is something that came up with a bunch of different stories I've heard from you. A lot of the time, uh, people will demonize the thing which is seemingly less natural. It got a name like aspartame instead of sugar.
- SEStan Efferding
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
But what they don't realize is that the weight loss from switching from sugar to aspartame is so significant that tons and tons of downstream benefits for health come from that.
- SEStan Efferding
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
And it seems like the concern-
- SEStan Efferding
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
... from aspartame has to be at dosages so insane that you would essentially be hooked up to an IV-
- SEStan Efferding
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... like- like Warren Buffett's nightmare-
- SEStan Efferding
Yeah. Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... just pumping it into your veins.
- SEStan Efferding
It's nothing for anybody to worry about. You hit on an interesting point there when I- I talk about, um, the importance of- of the overall dietary pattern and then your general physical health. Weight loss, I- I've said this o- on a podcast not too long ago, and it was clipped and thrown onto the internet, just a little clip of it, and I said that 95% of health benefits are realized strictly from weight loss itself, irrespective of diet, and I referenced the McDonald's diet. We have multiple studies now, the McDonald's diet, the Twinkie diet, the 7-Eleven diet, where when- when people eat even a lot of, quote-unquote, crappy food, junk food, fast food, when they're able to maintain a calorie deficit and lose weight, they see decreases in all of their biomarkers. They see lowered cholesterol, lowered blood sugar, lowered blood- blood pressure. And weight loss itself we know is associated with decreased cancer risk. So, that should be the primary goal, weight loss. Obviously, those kinds of diets long term, particularly if they're high in saturated fats and maybe your LDL starts to go up eventually, um, potentially if you're not exercising or if you lose a significant amount of lean muscle mass because you're not lifting weights. So there's a whole host of problems. At the end of that, I said I would never recommend a McDonald's diet. That gets clipped out. (laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs) Internet. Internet, please-
- SEStan Efferding
For- for a host of reasons.
- CWChris Williamson
... leave that bit in this time.
- SEStan Efferding
Yeah, which we've touched on already, satiety being the key, uh, reason for that is- is that the best diet's the one you'll follow. (clears throat) Uh, and hunger is the biggest reason why people, uh, will fail on a diet.
- CWChris Williamson
And- and- and-
- SEStan Efferding
That's why I keep going back to satiety.
- CWChris Williamson
When you're looking at the highly processed, very calorie dense foods, that if you were to do the McDonald's diet, and it is possible to lose weight on it, I think it was 1,800 calories, 1,850-
- SEStan Efferding
18. Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... something like that.
- SEStan Efferding
Yeah. You'd be very hungry.
- CWChris Williamson
Uh, precisely.
- 35:39 – 47:08
The Science Behind Intermittent Fasting
- SEStan Efferding
- CWChris Williamson
Is there anything special about intermittent fasting? Is there some super secret sauce that gets activated after a particular amount of time? Does the increased ghrelin release, is the hunger signal, hormesis response... What does the science say here?
- SEStan Efferding
In so much as it allows you to maintain a calorie deficit and you lose weight, it can be a healthy diet plan. That's gonna be very individualistic. Some people can skip breakfast or skip dinner and not feel, uh, as though that's too restrictive and can adhere to that diet for some period of time. But we- there's been a lot of things claimed about intermittent fasting, some special autophagy benefit or some special, uh, reduction in mTOR signaling or some satiety benefit which isn't consistent across the population. You see, uh, it's very individualistic. We don't see any, um, extra benefits above the calorie restriction itself, and we see in the research that continuous calorie restriction and intermittent fasting perform very much the same in terms of weight loss and health benefits long term.
- CWChris Williamson
Where is the magic fairy dust claims about intermittent fasting coming from, then? If you can't find it-And there are people out there who say that it's happening. What are they reading that you're not, or what are they seeing that's incorrect?
- SEStan Efferding
Uh, that's the problem with the research. You can... There's peer review published research to support just about any position on any nutrient or diet. Um, there's a evidence hierarchy that you're familiar with. Way down at the bottom is those mouse studies and Petri dishes and anecdotes, and then you step up one step maybe, and you've got, um, expert advice, which even that one's challenging because expert at what? You get somebody who's a, a chiropractor talking about nutrition, that's not necessarily within their domain-specific expertise. We see a lot of that. Uh, the, uh, the nutrition PhDs take particular offense to that. Uh, just because somebody has an MD or a PhD after their name doesn't mean it's, uh, it's in nutrition. Uh, next up from that, you're gonna look at probably epidemiology research on, uh, large populations of people, uh, and then randomized controlled trials above that, particularly ones that are performed on humans where you can, uh, adjust certain variables. And then you get up to systematic reviews or meta-analyses where they take, you know, they cluster together, uh, the body of evidence that qualifies for the criterion and they, uh, they try and come up with something that, uh, uh, is a little more representative of what all of the research suggests, not a cherry-picked, uh, study. Um, and then beyond that even, we've got, uh, professionals that will review all of that and make, um, you know, have a position paper, like the International-
- CWChris Williamson
Meta, meta.
- SEStan Efferding
... Society of Sports Nutrition, or yeah. Uh, because those people are probably more qualified to review those systematic reviews. Uh, and there's, you know, obviously there's the Cochrane Collaboration. I think they're in 51 countries with thousands of, of, uh, scientists that, uh, and they're kind of recognized as the gold standard for, um, being the least influenced potentially by, um, maybe, uh, uh, biases, et cetera. So, there's different quality of information. I mean, not to go too far off the rails, but, uh, some people will find, um, you know, cherry-pick is the word we use, a particular study that, uh, acted to their benefit. Sometimes, but I'll just use keto as an example, when you control for calories and protein, you see equivalent outcomes, uh, amongst people who do high carb or low carb, you know. Uh, we saw that in the DIETFITS trial out of Stanford, there was over 600 people that were, uh, over a year long, and they did low carb and high carb and didn't find any significant difference in satiety, weight loss, um, uh, glycemia. They didn't see any difference in any of those things. And interestingly enough, Gary Taubes' uh, research arm was part of that, um, that study. So over and over again, when you look at the body of evidence, randomized controlled trials in humans in particular and, and the, the systematic reviews of those, you just, you don't see any difference. You see that the trends are that it's very in- individualistic, uh, and even within a particular study when you show some sort of, uh, uh, measurable result, you've got a lot of inter-individual vary. You've got people who didn't have any result or, or, you know, got people who lost a lot of weight, you got people who gained a lot of weight. And what the average is might not appeal or, or apply to you as an individual. So, uh, and I hate saying all this... Well, I'm on both sides of the fence on this. I like that the individual now knows they have options, and there, and there isn't a best diet and they're not required to go keto or, uh, if they want to get results. Uh, it's unnecessary. Even if they have type 2 diabetes, the weight loss itself is the driver of insulin sensitivity, not the fact that they eliminated carbs. And we've had studies done where people with type 2 diabetes did a high carb and a low carb diet, they had equivalent outcomes. So, I want people to have as many options as possible. That gets us to n- now their eyes have glossed over and like, "Well, what do I do?" And, uh, that's where I come in with some very specific recommendations, uh, which, you know, then I gotta get feedback and make those adjustments because the general audience, the general population, they don't have all this in- this isn't their business. They have, they have a different business. They have a different field of expertise. They have a family. They have kids. They have a career. They have... Uh, they just, at the end of the day, they say, "Stan, just tell me exactly what to eat." And so I, I give them a very specific diet plan. I tell them exactly what to eat, how many ounces of this, how many, uh, you know, based on the feedback that they give me from my questionnaire. Uh, but then we have to, you know, tune in and listen, you know, "How do you feel? Do you feel satiated?" Um, there is a, um, weight control, uh, what's it called? Uh, registry that has tracked, uh, successful dieters, over 10,000 dieters, uh, going back a couple of decades who have lost over 66 pounds and maintained the weight loss for over five years! And there were some key things, uh, some common things. It's kind of like The Millionaire Next Door, what are, what are things that, that these people do consistently? Success leaves clues, and we saw that 98% of these people went on a diet. They had a plan, okay? And it doesn't matter which diet. These people went on many different diets. I have vegan clients, I have carnivore clients, I have keto clients, I have vertical diet clients. Uh, it's their personal preference. Uh, 98% went on a diet, they had a plan, so that does- that is important. Um, 95% of them increased their activity level, walking being the number one activity level. Uh, and we can get into how important and effective that is. Uh, 78% of them ate breakfast every morning, and that's not to say you have to eat breakfast, but it's certainly not to say that intermittent fasting, skipping breakfast is required to lose weight when the vast majority of the people in, in the largest, longest, most successful study demonstrates that 78% ate breakfast, and I don't care if you do or don't-My daughter doesn't like breakfast. She's never hungry in the morning. My son eats breakfast. It's very personal, it's very individualistic. We can talk about some, where breakfast might be important, uh, but for now we'll, we'll go on to the next one with 75% of people, um, weigh themselves regularly. Again, that which gets measured gets improved. And I have come across clients that said they have a uncomfortable relationship with the scale (laughs) . Uh, and that's generally because they let the daily fluctuations influence their mood, when you should be adding up the week, weigh in every day, add up the seven days, divide it by seven to get a, a weekly average, and then compare that weekly average to the other weekly averages throughout the month. That's a better way to, to manage the scale. Well, that sounds good in theory, but in practice, uh, my wife's been dieting for years, uh, and when she steps on that scale, it will determine her mood. Uh, and on that note, I said that, that... I coined a term some years ago, compliance is the science. That the best diet's the one you'll follow. So, I try and create a diet program that people comply with, something that become, it's, you know, on the cover of the book here. It's simple, sensible and sustainable. Okay? Something that becomes part of the lifestyle. And so one of the things that, uh, uh, one of the things that the research shows us is that meal prep, not shilling for my meal prep company, but prepping meals, uh, whether I prep or you prep, uh, we see this in the bodybuilding, figure/physique, bikini industry going back decades, as long as, as that industry has been in existence. Uh, those people, uh, those people, me, we, uh, that's my, that's my brethren, that's my home, bodybuilding, so I came up in this industry. Uh, we pack our meals into Tupperwares and we throw 'em in our six-pack bag and we, you know, that's, we've got everything we need for the day. Uh, meal prepping is one of the number one behaviors that leads to long-term success. And if you prep your meals, whether twice a week or, you know, every morning for the day, and you know exactly and it's measured and weighed exactly what you're supposed to eat, even Weight Watchers, very successful, uh, as long as you adhere to it and consistently eat the meals that they recommend. Any meal prep, uh, provides, uh, a greater opportunity for success, 'cause then you're not randomly opening the refrigerator when you're hungry, uh, a- and grabbing what you're hungry for, uh, we call that food reward, and end up over-consuming it. Or it's lunchtime, "Oh, my god, I'm famished." You get in the car, you drive to your favorite, you know, whatever you're hungry for, uh, fast food place possibly at that, at that moment, you tend to over-consume those foods. So, what I try and do is, is instill behaviors. Uh, meal prep is a, is a big one. We talked about satiety. And we have a toolbox, you know, that we can use to help us improve our satiety so we're not hungry all the time. And it's somewhat effective. Um, it's things like, uh, increasing protein intake, increasing fiber intake, eating more whole foods and fewer ultra-processed foods, uh, drinking more fluids with meals, which is where diet soda and iced tea can come in very handy, as well as water. Uh, helps fill the stomach up and that, you know, the, the rugae of the stomach expands and sends the signal that you're, that you're full. And, and that satiety feeling is very desirable in a meal, whether it's, uh, acquired through a massive amount of calories or just a, a har- large volume of food that m- may not, uh, yield as many calories, including fluids. Um, beyond that, uh, mindful eating, you know, not sitting in front of a TV or an iPhone and, and, and shoveling in food until all of a sudden the, the plate's gone. Um, eating more protein, and eating protein first in the meal tends to help with satiety. Uh, and there may be a few in there I forgot, but, but that's kind of our toolbox that we li- like to utilize, encourage our clients to, uh... Because as soon as they get hungry, you're gonna start losing that battle. Willpower is not a good strategy, uh, to overcome hunger. You'll lose that battle every time.
- 47:08 – 51:48
Why Do So Many Diets Fail?
- CWChris Williamson
Why is it the case, given this many thousand-person, very successful trial study, why is it the case that diets fail then?
- SEStan Efferding
Oh.
- CWChris Williamson
And what's the percentage success of a typical diet?
- SEStan Efferding
Great. Well, it's interesting. Uh, something like six out of seven dieters lose weight. Losing weight isn't, isn't hard. Uh, keeping it off is hard. So, long-term dietary adherence is what we like to measure. And the main reason that people regain the weight, as I mentioned, is hunger. Uh, they just stop adhering to the diet. They go back to their old habits. They start over-consuming, and generally that food is the ultra-processed, hyper-palatable foods. Uh, and that is where none of us are any more successful than the other. This is a whole conversation unto itself, really, that all of us in our diet tribes, you know, I have a name to diet, The Vertical Diet. You know, there's a whole host of people out there that claim that, that their, whether it's intermittent fasting or keto or, uh, you name it, none of us are any more successful than the other long term. There's been tons of studies on thousands of people for a year, two years, um, none of us can claim to have the answer to this problem. It's much bigger than all of us. And I, I think some of these ultra-processed, hyper-palatable food manufacturers are probably just laughing because we're all sitting around the table. There was an old Warner Brothers, uh, was it Warner Brothers? It was a cartoon when I was a kid, the ants were fighting over a cake and there was a cherry on top, and, uh, you had the red ants and the black ants were up there and they were drawing around the cherry to see who was gonna keep the cherry and they'd erase it and the other guy would erase it and... And they got in this great big fight and then the, um, uh, the picnickers came back, picked up their cake, and walked away while these guys were all fighting.
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- SEStan Efferding
I f- I feel like those ants in this...This, uh, war on obesity.
- CWChris Williamson
I was gonna say, do you feel like there is a- a battle going on between the designers of food and the people who want to remain healthy?
- SEStan Efferding
That battle is for money. That battle is for investors. That battle is to sell more food. That's what their job is as a corporation, uh, and they'll design and sell and market and, uh, in the most effective way to- for their business to profit, not in- in the most effective way to help people with their long-term health and to, you know, stave off obesity. So that, I can't speak to that. I'm just saying that while we're ar- arguing about the best diet, uh, it doesn't seem to matter. We all have our own list of testimonials. You know, I- I'll say something about the carbohydrate-insulin model, but I'll go on to Jason Fung's, uh, YouTube, and there's a whole bunch of people talking about how when they cut out carbs, they lost weight and they feel great. Uh, but in fact, everybody has testimonials. The vegan community has testimonials. The carn- carnivore community has testimonials. I post testimonials all the time. Um, doesn't seem to matter, uh, that hasn't had an impact on our obesity crisis. The- the cause of our... None of us are solving the cause of our obesity crisis, which is access to cheap, affordable, uh, ultra-processed, hyper-palatable foods. So it's bigger than all of us, because none of us ha- have any influence on that whatsoever, that- that, uh, those companies that are manufacturing and distributing this food. That's gonna take a larger intervention, like it did with smoking.
- CWChris Williamson
This episode is brought to you by a product I've used every single day for over three years now, and that is AG1. AG1 is a foundational nutrition supplement that covers whole body health. It is a staple part of my supplement regimen. I take the travel packs with me when I'm on the road, like here in LA, and it really does make a massive difference, especially to my digestion. If your energy levels have been all over the place, if you really feel like you need to make an improvement to your nutrition, this is a fantastic place to start. It's been updated 52 times over the last decade and only uses the best ingredients at the highest quality to make sure that it covers all of your nutritional bases. There is a 90-day money-back guarantee. For 90 days, you can use Athletic Greens, and if you do not like it or are not satisfied with the results, they'll give you your money back. If you're looking for a simpler, effective investment for your health, try AG1 today by going to drinkag1.com/modernwisdom. You'll get a year's free supply of vitamin D, five free AG1 travel packs, plus that 90-day money-back guarantee. That's drinkag1.com/modernwisdom. So why is it the case, if what you've
- 51:48 – 59:19
The Gap Between Government Health Advice & Stan’s Advice
- CWChris Williamson
said with regards to the vertical diet is accurate, why is it not the case that the World Health Organization and the FDA are in alignment with this? Like, w- w- why hasn't the FDA or the government updated or changed their recommendations in line with this?
- SEStan Efferding
Uh, I don't know what recommendations you're necessarily specifically talking about. If you're talking about the dietary guidelines, those dietary guidelines are pretty good. Uh, they are, uh, I think people bastardized them when they went low fat. These, uh, food companies came in and made these high-sugar, uh, foods, but it's not the sugar, it's not the fat. It's the combination of all of those, sugar, fat, salt. It- it's, it's a combination. That's where your pastries and- and cakes and all these things come from. They're not, it's not just sugar. Nobody's mainlining bags of sugar.
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- SEStan Efferding
It- it's not how this works.
- CWChris Williamson
There's someone. There is someone...
- SEStan Efferding
(laughs) There might be.
- CWChris Williamson
... out there that's doing that.
- SEStan Efferding
An individual.
- CWChris Williamson
Jare- Sorry. Have you seen the videos of th- these, uh, uncontacted tribesmen, and they give them cheesecake for the first time?
- SEStan Efferding
Uh...
- CWChris Williamson
Have you ever seen this?
- SEStan Efferding
I haven't seen it.
- CWChris Williamson
People should... Peop-
- SEStan Efferding
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
After this episode has finished.
- SEStan Efferding
Should probably watch them.
- CWChris Williamson
Not now. Uh, go and check out videos of uncontacted tribesmen-
- SEStan Efferding
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... eating cheesecake. And obviously-
- SEStan Efferding
Uh, their eyes just...
- CWChris Williamson
Oh, from an, orification.
- SEStan Efferding
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
So the design of-
- SEStan Efferding
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... the texture of food, the- the- the combination of the carbs and the fat. And if you think about it, I learned about orification a few years ago, and it- it blew my mind, um, so-
- SEStan Efferding
I learned about it in high school. I'm not sure exactly what you're...
- CWChris Williamson
I- I didn't... I, look, I- I'm- I'm British. We have a lot of fish and chips, uh, and-
- SEStan Efferding
I was teasing.
- CWChris Williamson
... poor orification.
- SEStan Efferding
Orification sounds like something to me. Sounds something else other than...
- 59:19 – 1:03:17
How Legitimate are Blue Zone Studies?
- CWChris Williamson
Blue S- Zone studies?
- SEStan Efferding
A lot of problems with the Blue Zone studies. Uh, one in particular is the lack of, uh, verifiable, um, birth certificates.
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- SEStan Efferding
A lot of these, a lot of these people would assume their parents...
- CWChris Williamson
It's a registry issue. It's not a-
- SEStan Efferding
Yes.
- CWChris Williamson
... diet issue, it's a registry issue.
- SEStan Efferding
There, there, and there was a, a study done on, I forget the name of the individual, but I actually included a reference to that in my... I have an e-book, a Vertical Diet e-book, where I've updated that periodically because I can, I can add... It's on version 3.0 currently and soon to be 4.0 on, on my website. But those are the kinds of links to research that I supply in there when people ask me, "What about Blue Zones?" I've gotten this question... I've probably answered over 100,000 DMs in the last six or seven years. And a lot of those questions are the same, which is kind of what creates the foundation of, of, of the information that I provide in, in, in my book here.
- CWChris Williamson
I know that this is what people want to know.
- SEStan Efferding
This is what they ask. And so I, I pool those into most common questions and I endeavor to answer those so that, that they're covered. And then I refer people to those answers. But, uh, one thing, yeah, we- we have a lack of verifiable. Um, there is a little cherry picking going on, uh, with those studies. Um, I think that, um, uh, some of the places that were left out, Iceland, uh, even in California, uh, the difference between say, um, Seventh Day Adventists is, is that the group that, uh, that's vegan, that's in the, um, that's in the Blue Zones, um, and I think right up the street, we've got Mormons who consume, uh, significantly more meat, uh, but have the other lifestyle characteristics, they don't smoke, they don't drink, they exercise a lot, they're not overweight, have similar life spans. And so, uh, the Blue Zones are tough, um, I think they make solid recommendations in terms of overall dietary patterns-Uh, but the idea that we can put a lot of weight-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- SEStan Efferding
... uh, in, and those diets vary quite a bit. Uh, there's meat consumption in the, in the Mediterranean diet. There's meat, meat consumption in the Okinawans, ham in particular. Uh, so, uh, the Blue Zones was, I think, kind of an effort to go, uh, to point more towards vegan. In fact, a lot of those, those loca- those areas aren't vegan. Uh, a lot of meat, some meats in their diet, which again gets us back to dietary pattern. Fruits and vegetables, uh, are very important. Uh, I think it's, um, uh, Hong Kong, the highest red meat consumers in the world, have some of the lo- have longest lifespan-
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs) .
- SEStan Efferding
... uh, but they eat a ton of fruits and vegetables and they eat pretty lean meats and they don't suck down cubes of butter. Uh, so, you know, all of that matters.
- CWChris Williamson
What are some of the commonalities, either in terms of lifestyle, movement, diet, uh, social life, that you do think the Blue Zones do get right?
- SEStan Efferding
Yeah. I think they get all of that right. Uh, other than, than trying to demonize a particular food item, I think they get all of that right. I think that they, uh, have better sleep, they have better, um, uh, body mass index, BMI, which is not the most accurate measure, obviously. Over-muscled people will look to be fat on BMI. But, uh, they have, uh, they, they move more, uh, in terms of the number of steps that they accumulate every day. Um, and, and you s- you hit the nail on the head there too. They have, uh, better, um, I think, social interaction with family, uh, all of those things. Uh, what's interesting is that a lot of these zones were very poor, which lent itself well to, of course, not being very well-documented in acquiring their parents' information so that they could, uh, continue to receive any governmental assistance that was associated with that. Um, uh, but usually lower socioeconomic, um, uh, populations have less access to medical care and, and therefore maybe a shorter, uh, lifespan. But, uh, um, that amongst all those other characteristics, that's, that's probably less important.
- 1:03:17 – 1:07:13
The Usefulness of Grounding for Health
- SEStan Efferding
- CWChris Williamson
What do you make of grounding and the usefulness of that in general overall health?
- SEStan Efferding
Yeah. I, I don't know that it's meaningful. I, I, there's a lot of things. I, I try and stick with the big rocks, uh, and I'm, I'm cautious about, uh... there's a lot of folks more recently, and I won't mention any names, but they're popular folks, that'll, that'll get into a lot of, uh, they might dive into plausible or possible reasons, biomechanical, you know, and the biochemistry in trying to explain why something should work or could work, but they take these giant logical leaps and make these outcome-oriented claims about things that, uh, that, that just aren't meaningful when compared to the things that really matter, the, the sleep, maintaining the weight, exercising regularly, y- you know, you said the social, uh, stress reduction, uh, those kinds of things, uh, a healthy diet. Everything else, I, I kinda put it into like a, the 99% and then the 1%. Everything else kinda goes into that little 1%. A lot of it's placebo. This happens a lot in the, um, in, uh, pain and pain rehabilitation. I talk a lot ab- about this in my book. Um, a lot of that stuff, uh, I say generally speaking, things that are done to you or for you are never as effective as things you do for yourself. Active recovery, movement, right? Actually getting your heart rate up, exercising, lifting weights, those kinds of things.
- CWChris Williamson
As opposed to massage?
- SEStan Efferding
As opposed to massage. I'm not saying massage is, is not beneficial. I'm just saying that in comparison. Uh, this isn't me. This is what the research suggests. I, to quote Greg Nuckols on it, he said that, uh, for, for, this is a study on lower back pain, 95% of which resolves itself spontaneously within six to eight weeks. So, any intervention that somebody with pain, uh, submits themselves to, chiropractics, physical therapy, electric stim, Gua Sha, uh, uh, dry needling, I mean, the list goes on and on and on.
- CWChris Williamson
Inversion table.
- SEStan Efferding
Anything. Wearing a copper bracelet. Any-
- CWChris Williamson
It's coming along for the ride.
- SEStan Efferding
Any th- it's coming along for the ride. They will attribute their spontaneous recovery to whatever intervention they're participating in at the time. "Oh my God, that worked for me. It was fantastic. It's worked for thousands of other people." Uh, Greg's words were, to quote, he said, "Maybe it's better than nothing, but it pales in comparison to any kind of movement." It's not an indictment on physical therapists or chiropractors. It's, it's that they should be facilitators of movement, a good physical therapist. Uh, Professor Michael Ray, uh, the folks at Barbell Medicine, um, who, uh, talk about the biopsychosocial method, which I think came from Larimer Moseley's work, Explain Pain, out of Australia. They're on the front lines of this, where manual therapy, uh, not as effective as, as movement. It's a, it's a facilitator of movement. If someone, by touching you, can, uh, distract you from that pain signal, from the brain to the location that you're experiencing pain, uh, call it placebo, call it distraction therapy, and that then allows you to move with less inhibition. Greg calls it, uh, kinesiophobic. Uh, when people have pain, they, they stop moving, which is exactly the opposite of what you wanna do. You wanna begin moving as early as possible and as much as possible with as little pain as possible, uh, and that's what's gonna help facilitate the recovery. So, I didn't mean to get too far off track there, but that's, uh, that's where I always end up when people talk about, "Th- th- this, this could be true of, of ice baths, you know, contrast showers." And, and I'm like, "Great. You know, if it makes you feel good, uh, do it, by all means." If those things, uh, you know, uh, give you a, uh, an emotional or a, uh, there's just no evidence that they provide a significant physiologically measurable benefit.
- CWChris Williamson
One of the other big movers,
- 1:07:13 – 1:10:41
How Sleep & Weight Loss Are Connected
- CWChris Williamson
sleep. What is the relationship between sleep and weight loss?
- SEStan Efferding
Yeah, a few things. One, when you don't get sufficient sleep, you have increased, uh, ghrelin release, which makes you hungrier, makes you wanna, like, eat more. You also have compromised insulin sensitivity, uh, which, uh, makes it a little easier for you to, to gain weight.
- CWChris Williamson
You, sorry, you've mentioned insulin sensitivity a couple of times today. Like, just high level, what's that?
- SEStan Efferding
Yeah. Uh, we would say, say pre-diabetic or diabetic, is that when you eat foods, your blood sugars elevate and there's no place to store them because you're over fat, your fat stores are full, and so you, you can't put those there. Your muscles, uh, maybe don't have sufficient muscle mass to, to store that there, and then that stays elevated for an extended period of time.
- CWChris Williamson
Oh, good. Right. Okay, understood. So sleep, weight loss.
- SEStan Efferding
Sleep does affect, uh, insulin levels as well. We also find that, uh, people who don't get sufficient sleep when they start losing weight, they might lose, uh, a, a disproportionate amount of muscle as opposed to fat. The body becomes stingy at preserving the fat. Uh, and so those are all things that can happen. Uh, other, other, uh, uh, just being awake more hours in the day gives you another opportunity to get hungry and eat.
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- SEStan Efferding
(laughs) You know? Sleep through one meal and you're probably better off.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah. Yeah, wow.
- SEStan Efferding
Yeah. Whole host of benefits from, uh, getting sufficient sleep.
- CWChris Williamson
Would you say that sleep is more important than cardio for fat loss?
- SEStan Efferding
Well, I did put it this way once. I said, "If you're waking up at 4:00 AM to do your fasted cardio after only five hours of sleep, you're stepping over $100 bills to pick up nickels." And that's been something I've said for many years. If somebody had... Uh, to me, I would, I would do the cardio later, or I don't even really recommend cardio at all to most of my clients because it's a pretty significant departure from their standard lifestyle, and it might not be something they enjoy. It might not be very sustainable, and we see it has diminishing returns over time as your body kind of adapts to that stimulus and reduce, becomes more efficient and reduces the calorie it burns. I focus on non-exerci- uh, and another thing is, is that too much exercise activity, particularly aggressive exercise activity, I'm not shitting on any of these forms, if- the best exercise is the one you'll do. If you enjoy doing it, do it. Uh, but if somebody goes, starts crushing themselves, I, I call it battle ropes and burpees, thinking that they're gonna burn calories just, you know, to, for fat loss, uh, a phenomenon called compensation takes over, where you just go home and sit more and eat more because you're hungry. You know, you're tired.
- CWChris Williamson
And you earned it.
- SEStan Efferding
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
You just trained well.
- SEStan Efferding
Hey, and you can burn 300 calories in one of those battle rope and burpee episodes, and you can go home and have one piece of bread and negate all of your, all of your gains or losses, we should say. Uh, but I'm cautious about prescribing cardio for weight loss, uh, for all of those reasons.
- CWChris Williamson
Prescribe an extra hour's sleep instead?
- SEStan Efferding
I'd prescribe an extra hour's sleep and more non-exercise activity. I just think that the barriers to entry, having to come home, get in your car, drive to the gym, do your cardio, I mean, uh, we're too busy, especially if you got a family and a career. That's some- that's the first thing that gets sacrificed in that scenario. That's why I love the 10-minute walks, because they're more convenient, more sustainable. I can attach them to an existing behavior, which as we know, uh, increases the likelihood that that new behavior will become a habit. Uh, they can be done anywhere at any time.
- CWChris Williamson
Let's say it's the first time that somebody is
- 1:10:41 – 1:24:30
Why Walking Improves Health Significantly
- CWChris Williamson
hearing about walking as a significant performance enhancer.
- SEStan Efferding
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
What do we need to know? Frequency, structure? Why is it working? What's the best way that you've found to integrate it? How do you stick to it?
- SEStan Efferding
Well, we see dramatic improvements in healthspan simply from going from 2,000 steps a day to 5,000 steps a day. We see, um, a significant decline in, in blood pressure, uh, improvement in heart rate, all the health markers. It also improves satiety of all things, just walking somewhere in that, I wanna say about 5,000 or 6,000 steps a day. You can get about 1,300 steps from a 10-minute walk. Uh, there is plenty of evidence to suggest that, uh, moving periodically throughout the day, say 10 minutes three times a day, is more effective than 30 minutes once a day on, on all cause mortality as well.
- CWChris Williamson
Why?
- SEStan Efferding
Uh, well, it seems that the sitting for an extended period of time actually does some damage and moving more frequently throughout the day, getting your heart rate up, uh, even if it's five minutes out of every hour while you're at, at work, you know, they got those standing desks or the bike desks and those kinds of things, and just movement in general, um, and then getting sufficient steps in. Now, we do see differences in, uh, the intensity of that. You should, they should be deliberate. The heart rate should elevate a bit. I mean, we're not jogging. Uh, you don't necessarily have to, to be out of breath. Um, but, uh, we see the folks that can get their heart rate elevated just a little bit, we stay in, you know, zone two, I think everybody's talking about now. It's not such that you can't, uh, still talk while you're doing it. Uh, so it should be deliberate.
- CWChris Williamson
It's tough to get to zone two walking. Zone two whilst walking-
- SEStan Efferding
Like a 4.0.
- CWChris Williamson
It's a quick pace.
- SEStan Efferding
It's a decent pace. It's deliberate, and it should be. You're gonna get better benefits from it.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah, I, I didn't... I mean, I, I'm not cardiovasculally even (laughs) even remotely competent, but for me, and I wear a WHOOP, I absolutely love it. Um, I would need to be weight vested-
- SEStan Efferding
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... or I would need to be moving-
- SEStan Efferding
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... at one hell of a clip-
- SEStan Efferding
Mm. Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... for me. Like speed walking. I would look silly to get to-
- SEStan Efferding
Well, we mentioned-
- CWChris Williamson
... properly get into zone two.
- SEStan Efferding
... that's the neat thing about exercise in general and improving your healthspan, is that when you go from what's described as the bottom quartile into, say, the 50% or above, that's where you see the majority of your health benefits.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- SEStan Efferding
Uh, so, uh-... I think something is better than nothing, and then I try and f- make that something into, uh, something that's sustainable and easy to do.
- CWChris Williamson
On the walk, this is something that I realized while I was talking to a friend. Friend moved into this gorgeous new apartment in Austin on West 7th Street.
- SEStan Efferding
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
It's on the 23rd floor. He's got view on three sides. He can see the sun rise and the sun set. It's amazing. If he wants to go for a walk, takes him seven minutes to get downstairs because there's only three elevators for 1,500 people that live in this-
- SEStan Efferding
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... apartment block and so on and so forth. And I was like, "Dude, like, I l- I love this place." And then where I live, I, um, as soon as I put my Crocs on, I am about 15 seconds from a park.
- SEStan Efferding
Yeah, yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
And it's the first time, uh, l- my parents' house is like that back home. My house in New Castle's kind of similar, and then this one's by far the closest. And it's such a hack, and it's an unseen cost-
- SEStan Efferding
Yeah.
Episode duration: 2:25:07
Install uListen for AI-powered chat & search across the full episode — Get Full Transcript
Transcript of episode EuQoGHEA5Cw
Get more out of YouTube videos.
High quality summaries for YouTube videos. Accurate transcripts to search & find moments. Powered by ChatGPT & Claude AI.
Add to Chrome