Everything You Want Is On The Other Side Of Cringe - Zack Telander

1. 0:00 – 10:51

   Why Being Cringe is So Ironic

   1. CWChris Williamson0:00

      Zac Tylander, welcome to the show.

   2. ZTZack Telander0:01

      (sings) It's been a while-

   3. CWChris Williamson0:03

      (laughs) It's been too long.

   4. ZTZack Telander0:03

      ... since I have been on this (censored) show. (laughs)

   5. CWChris Williamson0:12

      (laughs) Damn (laughs) . You've been busy.

   6. ZTZack Telander0:14

      I have been busy, dude. I've been very busy. I just wanna say also that this is a perfect representation of you and I, like the autism architects-

   7. CWChris Williamson0:24

      (laughs)

   8. ZTZack Telander0:25

      ... and then like the degenerate kind of cowboy-

   9. CWChris Williamson0:28

      Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

   10. ZTZack Telander0:29

       ... Waylon Jennings figure outlaw.

   11. CWChris Williamson0:30

       Yeah. Yeah. I'm trying to subliminally change, uh, people's music choices through what I wear as a T-shirt. I don't think it's working. I don't think anybody is listening to any of the bands that I wear.

   12. ZTZack Telander0:40

       I think they... I feel like they are.

   13. CWChris Williamson0:41

       You wanna know?

   14. ZTZack Telander0:42

       Yeah. But yeah, I'm not gonna give you... I'm not gonna allow you to be the only person that wears a band T-shirt in here.

   15. CWChris Williamson0:47

       That's true.

   16. ZTZack Telander0:47

       I got... I bought this purposefully for this episode. (laughs)

   17. CWChris Williamson0:50

       For this? Oh, nice.

   18. ZTZack Telander0:50

       Yes. (laughs)

   19. CWChris Williamson0:51

       Hey.

   20. ZTZack Telander0:51

       I do love Waylon Jennings, so...

   21. CWChris Williamson0:53

       Sick. Uh, everything you want is on the other side of cringe.

   22. ZTZack Telander0:57

       Yeah. So I saw... Actually, I made this post about cringe. And a lot of times people say if you want to, like, defeat cringe, you just have to... It's like a muscle you have to flex. You just have to keep going for whatever it is and, like, learn how to take failure. And it's almost as if failure and cringe are kind of, like, aligned.

   23. CWChris Williamson1:20

       Mm-hmm.

   24. ZTZack Telander1:21

       But my nuanced take was, uh, from it was, the people who are calling you cringe, uh, or, or like the critics, like everyone has hopes and dreams. Everyone. You know, it's not like there are some people who are born and they're just like, "I don't want to do anything with my life ever." Right? But the critics and the people calling you cringe, essentially what they're doing is saying like, "Oh, you're pursuant of some sort of hope and dream."

   25. CWChris Williamson1:48

       Mm-hmm.

   26. ZTZack Telander1:49

       "How dare you?"

   27. CWChris Williamson1:50

       Mm-hmm.

   28. ZTZack Telander1:51

       And so at some point in their lives, they had to make a decision, uh, "I'm not gonna pursue my hopes and dreams because that is quote unquote cringe."

   29. CWChris Williamson1:59

       Mm-hmm.

   30. ZTZack Telander2:00

       Which I found super interesting.
2. 10:51 – 18:17

   We Need to Take More Pleasure in the Little Things

   1. ZTZack Telander10:51

      things.

   2. CWChris Williamson10:51

      So, to loop this back, I think a lot of this is what would quite easily be, uh, castigated on the internet as being cringe.

   3. ZTZack Telander10:59

      Mm-hmm.

   4. CWChris Williamson11:00

      That, um, I, I, I think felt a little bit of shame for quite a while at taking pleasure in small things-

   5. ZTZack Telander11:09

      Right.

   6. CWChris Williamson11:09

      ... like that. That the fact that, um, non-grand, uh, relatively insignificant, very normal things could give me sort of, like, a cozy sense of joy. Uh, that that was a comment on how small my life was. Like, "Oh-

   7. ZTZack Telander11:30

      Right, that-

   8. CWChris Williamson11:30

      ... that's what made your day? Like, how unimpressive, how feeble, how-

   9. ZTZack Telander11:35

      Mm-hmm.

   10. CWChris Williamson11:35

       ... how, how, um, non-majestic must your life be that seeing a butterfly or getting to have a really nice cold glass of Fanta, or the one that I use as this example, which always works for me, if I throw my gym towel, my little hand towel I take to the gym, if I throw it and it goes into the laundry basket-

   11. ZTZack Telander11:54

       Yeah.

   12. CWChris Williamson11:54

       ... without touching anything from across the room-

   13. ZTZack Telander11:56

       Yeah.

   14. CWChris Williamson11:56

       ... I'm like, "That was fucking sick."

   15. ZTZack Telander11:58

       That was sick.

   16. CWChris Williamson11:59

       And I just d- I think I had a lot of shame. I still do have a lot of shame around that, because there's this sense that life's supposed to be very impressive-

   17. ZTZack Telander12:07

       Okay.

   18. CWChris Williamson12:07

       ... and, and it occurs on a stage, and then I do think that I have kind of a...... an inner cringe critic that isn't me, but is some imagined-

   19. ZTZack Telander12:21

       Hmm.

   20. CWChris Williamson12:21

       ... third party who's very sardonic, who, um, doesn't really earnestly engage with anything, and I hear them making a comment around what I like and that causes me to not like what I like so much anymore.

   21. ZTZack Telander12:38

       Yeah. I think... That, that happens to everyone, okay? But it's like, you have to d- you have to be like, how... Even, even just like evolutionary human things, bro. If you are thirsty and you take a drink of water, you're like, "Oh my God, the miracle of water," (laughs) right? That feeling right there is, like, really crucial. And what, what I for sure have seen you do, like we've gone to... We go to a Japanese restaurant and I remember being like, "Chris, this fucking sushi is amazing. Make... Say that it's amazing or something." You know what I mean? We can't, we can't... The miracle that went through getting this unbelievable piece of fish to your and my plate at... What was that restaurant? I was... Somewhere here in town. Soto.

   22. CWChris Williamson13:32

       Yes.

   23. ZTZack Telander13:32

       Yes. And it was like, literally from Japan 24 hours ago to our plate. I'm like... You know, it's shit like that that, like, you really gotta just somehow (laughs) be like, "What, what is the joy that I'm feeling and why do I feel it?" Like, oh, and then just reverse engineer the process that got you that feeling and like, you'll be like, "Wait, this is amazing, dude."

   24. CWChris Williamson13:54

       Right. So you're trying to remind yourself of the miracle of modernity.

   25. ZTZack Telander13:57

       Of course, yes. And e- and... Yes. And like these simple pleasures that are just crazy, like I pressed a button on a box that I don't know how it works (laughs) and my favorite Mexican food showed up. I, I pressed another button on another box and I had every movie-

   26. CWChris Williamson14:14

       Yeah.

   27. ZTZack Telander14:14

       ... possible.

   28. CWChris Williamson14:14

       Well, it sounds great, but we habituate, right? That's exactly what happens.

   29. ZTZack Telander14:17

       Of course. And I... But we also, it's... We also look past. It's like, "How could I enjoy this when I'm, when I haven't reached my goals yet?"

   30. CWChris Williamson14:25

       You know when I find out to be the worst is when we go to watch comedy shows, and it's usually me and you, and I always find myself w- l- hoping for the next comedian. And that's not to say the comedians we're watching are bad, although some of them are, but I'm always thinking, "Oh, but the ne- the next one," and then the ne- and then the ne- and then the... And before I know it, I've nexted my way-
3. 18:17 – 23:18

   How Has the Comments Section Changed Us?

   1. CWChris Williamson18:18

      (whoosh) I wanna, I wanna go back to that irony thing. I was watching, uh, a- an essay from Joe Folley, Unsolicited Advice. He's been on the show, fucking awesome guy. And, uh, he's got this great line. He says, "To profess an honest belief in anything, especially something open to challenge, is a pretty exposing thing to do in the public square." And he's talking again about his issue with ironic speech that it allows you to care less about things, or at least seem like you care less-

   2. ZTZack Telander18:43

      Mm-hmm.

   3. CWChris Williamson18:44

      ... about things. And it doesn't force you to actually engage with any information earnestly, right? Earnest being, um, the bravery to take your emotions seriously.

   4. ZTZack Telander18:54

      Right.

   5. CWChris Williamson18:54

      Um, and it is insincere. And my issue, I think, with how much ironic speech there is at the moment online and, and accusations of cringe-

   6. ZTZack Telander19:04

      (clears throat)

   7. CWChris Williamson19:05

      ... is why that really spoke to me. The, the problem that I have with so many things being called out as cringe, like everybody's cringe radar is fucking hyper-attuned.

   8. ZTZack Telander19:13

      Yeah. It's, you know-

   9. CWChris Williamson19:13

      The issue, the issue I have with it is that it dissuades everyone from being sincere.

   10. ZTZack Telander19:20

       So I, Chris, I truly believe that the comments section has, like, changed humanity permanently. If... Because what, right now, this discussion between you and I, if this was televised in, like, 1998, we would be more sincere. Even though we're still performative and we'd still have a filter on it, we would be more sincere. And the only reason we, we would is because there's no chance of anyone else kind of, like, coming back, unless they're on the network as well. So-

   11. CWChris Williamson19:52

       Oh, right, okay, on one of the three channels that are available.

   12. ZTZack Telander19:54

       Yes.

   13. CWChris Williamson19:55

       Right.

   14. ZTZack Telander19:55

       And so, so, bro, I left a comment on something, it has 65,000 likes, from a fucking comment. That's insane. That's like, you know, the, wh- what that says is, like, somebody's response to somebody who's working out their true self-

   15. CWChris Williamson20:14

       Mm.

   16. ZTZack Telander20:14

       ... can be ironic. It can be critical. It can call it cringe. It can just make... As long as it's contrarian whatever-

   17. CWChris Williamson20:21

       Mm-hmm.

   18. ZTZack Telander20:22

       ... just a quick little response can equal or have more value than the actual original person speaking.

   19. CWChris Williamson20:28

       Well, that's what getting ratioed is, right?

   20. ZTZack Telander20:30

       Yes.

   21. CWChris Williamson20:30

       Getting ratioed is somebody coming in... And it's very rare. How many times in history has it happened where someone's got ratioed with a reply that says, "This is so lovely. I'm so glad you did this," and meant it?

   22. ZTZack Telander20:41

       Yeah, right. That's not po-

   23. CWChris Williamson20:42

       Right?

   24. ZTZack Telander20:42

       Yeah, that's not-

   25. CWChris Williamson20:42

       It's never happened because-

   26. ZTZack Telander20:43

       It's always, it's always negative. And I-

   27. CWChris Williamson20:44

       It's always the contrarian voice.

   28. ZTZack Telander20:45

       But, but do you see how, like, that is, fundamentally changes, like, how we can do this?

   29. CWChris Williamson20:51

       Well, it feels-

   30. ZTZack Telander20:51

       How we can make this happen?
4. 23:18 – 37:25

   Zack’s Opinion on Getting Out Over Your Skis

   1. CWChris Williamson23:18

      Andy Elliott.

   2. ZTZack Telander23:19

      Mm.

   3. CWChris Williamson23:20

      Right? Uh, very difficult to look at him. Now, maybe in the world of sales, I haven't done a, a deep dive, maybe in the world of sales he's a GOAT or something. It doesn't seem like that's the case. But from the outside, like, a lot of that stuff, getting people up on stage to say, "Have you got a six-pack? My wife's got a six-pack."

   4. ZTZack Telander23:37

      Yeah.

   5. CWChris Williamson23:37

      "I'm indicted in a million lawsuits from the past about all of this stuff." Think, you are flying very, you're like the Icarus of cringe. You're flying very close to the sun. Y- in order to be able to do that and pull it off, it's gonna, it's gonna be really, really, really hard-

   6. ZTZack Telander23:53

      Yeah.

   7. CWChris Williamson23:53

      ... even if you're squeaky clean and super legitimate. And if you've got a huge fucking criminal history, that's gonna be hard. So o- one thing that you said there was about people kind of getting out over their skis-

   8. ZTZack Telander24:03

      Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

   9. CWChris Williamson24:03

      ... a lot. Um, there's this idea called the Oxford Manner, which is the ability to play gracefully with ideas. And it's, uh, letting someone... I, I, uh, a similar idea from Eric Weinstein is the accuracy budget. So basically, uh-... the internet is sort of, because of its Eye of Sauron toward cringe, and especially toward hypocrisy of people getting things right-

   10. ZTZack Telander24:28

       I like that. Eye of Sauron, that's great.

   11. CWChris Williamson24:30

       Yeah. Do you remember when Huberman mis-tweeted about, uh, percentages? He'd stacked up percentages over time and did a tweet about it.

   12. ZTZack Telander24:40

       Yeah, yeah.

   13. CWChris Williamson24:41

       He miscalculated the way that the maths worked and he got, he still gets that brought up now.

   14. ZTZack Telander24:45

       Yeah, yeah.

   15. CWChris Williamson24:45

       Like, this is a doctor who doesn't know how ... Supposedly the leader of the longevity movement who doesn't understand how to do a fucking percentage. That's one thing which is supposed to be, oh, this is the tip of the iceberg and shows that he's, you know, he doesn't understand anything below that. Uh, the issue that I have with ... Uh, the idea of an accuracy budget is if you're never allowed to play gracefully with ideas, which is to talk in public about something that might be true or might not be true-

   16. ZTZack Telander25:13

       Right.

   17. CWChris Williamson25:13

       ... and you're given a little bit of latitude, you're given some breathing room before people say, "Oh, you know, th- that's wrong," and you go, "Hey, hey, hey. Just let's hang on a second."

   18. ZTZack Telander25:24

       Right.

   19. CWChris Williamson25:24

       "May not be an expert at this." And the, the line unfortunately is so difficult to delineate between is this person a ...

   20. ZTZack Telander25:36

       It's, it's topical as well, Chris. So if this person is discussing, like, if you and I are discussing, like, our favorite sandwiches and I get in over my skis 'cause I start talking about meatballs and stuff and I, you know, they come from Italy or whatever, that's not a big issue. But if you're getting out over your skis and you're talking about cultural relativism or moral relativism and you start going real hard, that's when people are gonna be like, "Hey, man, uh, context or not, you're a fucking idiot."

   21. CWChris Williamson26:05

       Yep.

   22. ZTZack Telander26:06

       You know? And that's where, like, okay, you can take the response of, uh, what is it, post and ghost-

   23. CWChris Williamson26:14

       Mm-hmm.

   24. ZTZack Telander26:15

       ... totally. But you have to have a finger on the pulse to know what, what and what to not talk about.

   25. CWChris Williamson26:19

       Hmm. Experts only, the position of only people who have, uh, credible qualifications and an illustrious history within this particular area-

   26. ZTZack Telander26:32

       Right.

   27. CWChris Williamson26:32

       ... are permitted to speak on it.

   28. ZTZack Telander26:33

       Yeah, so the problem with that ultimate- I, I, I disagree with that. You know, it's, it is a sliding scale as well.

   29. CWChris Williamson26:40

       Mm-hmm.

   30. ZTZack Telander26:41

       Um, because then who determines what is the determining factor on who's an expert and how far does that go?
5. 37:25 – 42:43

   Grifters are Driving Critique Online

   1. ZTZack Telander37:25

      about that."

   2. CWChris Williamson37:25

      It is, it is strange that this sort of freedom of speech crowd are one of the first to jump down people's throats if they get something slightly wrong. It's, "Ah, well actually..."

   3. ZTZack Telander37:34

      But that's also, that is the internet. It's more important to be correct, or it's, it's more important to correct someone than it is to be corrected.

   4. CWChris Williamson37:42

      Yeah.

   5. ZTZack Telander37:42

      Or to be correct, sorry.

   6. CWChris Williamson37:43

      That's a good, that's a good way to put it.

   7. ZTZack Telander37:44

      Everyone wants to correct you. They don't care if, if they're-

   8. CWChris Williamson37:48

      Well again, this, the reason-

   9. ZTZack Telander37:48

      ... if you're right or wrong.

   10. CWChris Williamson37:49

       This is the reason that ironic speech is protection, right? That if you're the person pointing out other people's flaws, you don't have that eye of power on someone brought back onto you.

   11. ZTZack Telander37:58

       Yeah, 'cause, yeah, 'cause we have the, the second level doesn't work.

   12. CWChris Williamson38:00

       Exactly. You're like, "Hey, hey, hey, look. I'm here as an arbiter. Don't worry. I am here as an arbiter of truth and I will help you to find out who the grifters and the shills are."

   13. ZTZack Telander38:09

       Mm.

   14. CWChris Williamson38:09

       I actually asked, I, uh, I'll ask you. Um, what is a good, what is your best definition of the word grifter?

   15. ZTZack Telander38:20

       Well, I would say-

   16. CWChris Williamson38:21

       Or shill?

   17. ZTZack Telander38:22

       Yeah. B- uh, for me it's charlatan, it's usually s- a fraud, but somebody who, um, claims to have absolute answers for things. It's usually somebody who is giving you very clear and concise one-size-fits-all answer.

   18. CWChris Williamson38:44

       I think that's a good one.

   19. ZTZack Telander38:45

       That's, that's usually it.

   20. CWChris Williamson38:46

       I think that's a good one for charlatan. At least the best one that I've heard for grifter and for shill. Uh, grifter, somebody espousing beliefs that they do not truly believe themselves. So like, I say this thing, but I don't believe it privately.

   21. ZTZack Telander38:58

       Right.

   22. CWChris Williamson38:58

       That's a grifter.

   23. ZTZack Telander38:59

       Yep.

   24. CWChris Williamson38:59

       And a shill is somebody who is trying to sell a product or service that they wouldn't use themselves.

   25. ZTZack Telander39:05

       Okay. Would you say that a shill has been bought by said product or something?

   26. CWChris Williamson39:09

       In some cases, yeah.

   27. ZTZack Telander39:09

       There has to be some sort of monetary exchange. Okay.

   28. CWChris Williamson39:11

       Yeah, or maybe they're doing it for status.

   29. ZTZack Telander39:13

       Yeah, I think those are great.

   30. CWChris Williamson39:14

       Or you could, you could shill for the Democratic Party, uh, because it makes you look good. You're not gaining monetarily.
6. 42:43 – 55:22

   Does Trying to Be Cool Make You Cringe?

   1. ZTZack Telander42:43

   2. CWChris Williamson42:43

      Uh, okay. So another one that you've been talking about recently is cool.

   3. ZTZack Telander42:47

      Right.

   4. CWChris Williamson42:47

      What makes something cool?

   5. ZTZack Telander42:48

      Mm-hmm.

   6. CWChris Williamson42:48

      What's your best sort of working model of cool and how it works?

   7. ZTZack Telander42:52

      So the actionable thing about cool is, like, not talking. Seriously.

   8. CWChris Williamson42:58

      Are you with some of the coolest guys in Austin that actually-

   9. ZTZack Telander43:00

      Don't talk.

   10. CWChris Williamson43:02

       (laughs) ... say anything?

   11. ZTZack Telander43:03

       You and I are patently uncool, bro.

   12. CWChris Williamson43:05

       Uncool because of how much we speak.

   13. ZTZack Telander43:07

       Right.

   14. CWChris Williamson43:07

       Yeah, that's true.

   15. ZTZack Telander43:08

       That's it. I mean, that's, that's ... It, we could go down everything, but it's like, I talk too much. I think too much. You hear me on this podcast, I'm just babbling. Not cool. It's not cool. So I just, I don't try to be cool, you know. It's the same thing, like, I'm in music. I cannot ... If I try to be cool, I might be cringe, you know. If I try to be something I'm not, I can't, I can't... I gotta just be my authentic self. I gotta talk. I gotta worry about things.

   16. CWChris Williamson43:39

       That is very insightful. So there was a, a study done very recently, uh, it came out about a month ago, about what makes someone cool. So I'm gonna take you through it.

   17. ZTZack Telander43:47

       Mm-hmm.

   18. CWChris Williamson43:47

       And you can jump in whenever you're ready. Uh, early writing on coolness described it as emotional restraint, being calm, composed, unbothered. This view rooted in the metaphor of temperature and emotion, so coolness, right, coolness, is a sign of self-control and mastery. Nice framing, right? Not bad.

   19. ZTZack Telander44:05

       Yeah.

   20. CWChris Williamson44:05

       Uh, (clears throat) they did a study of more than 5,000 people in 12 countries. Each participant was asked to evaluate non-famous people that they considered cool, not cool, and good, or not good, and rate them on 15 values and personality traits, extroversion, autonomy, warmth, conscientiousness, stuff like that. Across the 12 countries, so huge range of cultures, different people's cool gets described in really similar ways. And you're talking, like, Africa, Western countries, Eastern countries. And what it suggests is that the meaning of cool has changed, and it's a way to identify and label people with a specific psychological profile, right? Because it, if it wasn't, they wouldn't converge on what cool means based on, "Here are a bunch of different psychological profiles." So, cool people are outgoing and social, so extroverted. They seek pleasure and enjoyment, so they're hedonistic. They take risks and try new things, so they're adventurous. They are curious and open to new experiences, open. And they have influence or charisma, powerful. And perhaps most of all, they do things their own way, autonomous. So-

   21. ZTZack Telander45:16

       Right.

   22. CWChris Williamson45:16

       ... extroversion, hedonism, power, adventurousness, openness, and autonomy. Those six things.

   23. ZTZack Telander45:22

       Right.

   24. CWChris Williamson45:22

       Does that comport?

   25. ZTZack Telander45:24

       To a certain extent. I, I think, I think one of the-

   26. CWChris Williamson45:27

       Extroversion, hedonism, power, adventurousness, openness, autonomy.

   27. ZTZack Telander45:29

       Do ... You and I talk about this, I think, rare. Just being scarce.

   28. CWChris Williamson45:33

       Mm-hmm.

   29. ZTZack Telander45:34

       If you're too available, I mean, this was ... Uh, I saw a really awesome clip from one of the guys from SuicideBoys, awesome rap group, and he was saying, you know, "We, we couldn't tell anyone in our hometown that we were good. They saw us buying menthols at the, you know, the QuikMart o- on a Wednesday. So we couldn't be like, 'Dude, listen to our music, I swear it's good.' They're like, 'Yeah, whatever, dude. F- fuck off.'" You know? But to people in Russia, we were the SuicideBoys. We were cool as shit. You know? It's, uh, your, uh, a cheeseburger in your hometown, and your steak elsewhere type of thing. That is a level of cool, and it's, like, rarity. It's something we don't see a-

   30. CWChris Williamson46:17

       Aloofness.
7. 55:22 – 1:03:51

   Why Zack Thinks It’s Becoming Harder to Be Your Authentic Self

   1. ZTZack Telander55:22

      authenticity is a wild one, isn't it? Because it's like you need status to show off that your authentic self is worthwhile looking at, at least like in content creation or, or whatever.

   2. CWChris Williamson55:34

      Mm-hmm.

   3. ZTZack Telander55:35

      Like, somebody's authentic self, like, no one could care about seeing it.

   4. CWChris Williamson55:38

      There's lots of people that are authentic, but don't have any status, so they're not respected for their authenticity.

   5. ZTZack Telander55:43

      Right. It's what, you know, it's a, it is a- amalgamation of a bunch of things as well. There are like juggernauts in, in music that are like getting older. You know, you have Beyonce, Jay-Z-

   6. CWChris Williamson55:53

      Mm-hmm.

   7. ZTZack Telander55:53

      ... Taylor Swift, they, and even like The Weekend, uh, Rick Beato had a big thing on this, is like the, the room for cool to come up and, and take over is just like, it's much, like we're much more corporatized with our pop artists now.

   8. CWChris Williamson56:12

      Mm.

   9. ZTZack Telander56:13

      And it, it seems, it seems as, like that.

   10. CWChris Williamson56:16

       What was the, what are some of the last breakthrough artists-

   11. ZTZack Telander56:19

       Well, it just, it-

   12. CWChris Williamson56:20

       ... that have risen off the back of cool, in your opinion?

   13. ZTZack Telander56:22

       Oh man, well, like current, like current breakthrough artists?

   14. CWChris Williamson56:26

       Yeah, like-

   15. ZTZack Telander56:27

       I mean, Billie Eilish is super cool, I think, um, but she's a juggernaut, and she's been around.

   16. CWChris Williamson56:32

       I was gonna say, a breakthrough is not due to being cool.

   17. ZTZack Telander56:34

       Right.

   18. CWChris Williamson56:34

       Right?

   19. ZTZack Telander56:35

       I don't, I don't know if, I don't know.

   20. CWChris Williamson56:36

       Red Clay Strays?

   21. ZTZack Telander56:38

       Uh, I wouldn't even say they're, like I'm talking huge.

   22. CWChris Williamson56:41

       Oh, Sleep...

   23. ZTZack Telander56:41

       Sure. I, I, look, it's like, um, Bob Dylan was just cool, dude.

   24. CWChris Williamson56:47

       Right, okay.

   25. ZTZack Telander56:48

       Like, I don't think a Bob Dylan could exist now, and-

   26. CWChris Williamson56:51

       Why?

   27. ZTZack Telander56:52

       It's just too, like the world is just too like corporate and, and like, like I ha- I don't wanna sound like a hippie on this, but like the process of growing from an independent artist to becoming, uh, a Bob Dylan is just too difficult.

   28. CWChris Williamson57:08

       Really? I would have thought-

   29. ZTZack Telander57:10

       Or it's too, it's too different.

   30. CWChris Williamson57:11

       I would have thought that the market would have just rewarded whatever the market wants. That gatekeepers-
8. 1:03:51 – 1:12:33

   Performance Massively Enhances GLP-1 Use

   1. CWChris Williamson1:03:51

   2. ZTZack Telander1:03:51

      The LP one. Did you see, uh, Serena Williams got loads of stick for-

   3. CWChris Williamson1:03:54

      Yeah, for Pro-

   4. ZTZack Telander1:03:54

      ... the LP one?

   5. CWChris Williamson1:03:54

      Yeah, 'cause of her husband.

   6. ZTZack Telander1:03:56

      But anybody that- Um, man. I mean, I don't even...

   7. CWChris Williamson1:04:02

      She looks great. Say what you want. She looks great on Ozempic. Fucking stacked abs and everything.

   8. ZTZack Telander1:04:08

      Yeah. I mean, she's got insane genetic, she's got the best genetics.

   9. CWChris Williamson1:04:12

      Yeah.

   10. ZTZack Telander1:04:12

       So-

   11. CWChris Williamson1:04:12

       But also has always been a thicker girl.

   12. ZTZack Telander1:04:15

       Yeah. But there's been a ton of muscle underneath that. Whatever, you know, so then-

   13. CWChris Williamson1:04:20

       Sunny Webster.

   14. ZTZack Telander1:04:20

       G- yo-

   15. CWChris Williamson1:04:21

       S- uh, she's black Sunny Webster.

   16. ZTZack Telander1:04:22

       Yeah. So, like, G-

   17. CWChris Williamson1:04:23

       Black female Sunny Webster.

   18. ZTZack Telander1:04:23

       ... if you take a GLP-1 and you're always been a jacked person, you just have a little bit of extra body fat, you look great. But if you take a GLP-1 and you've never worked out a day in your life, you look terrible.

   19. CWChris Williamson1:04:33

       Horrible.

   20. ZTZack Telander1:04:34

       Awful.

   21. CWChris Williamson1:04:34

       (laughs)

   22. ZTZack Telander1:04:36

       (laughs) Disgusting.

   23. CWChris Williamson1:04:39

       Yeah. I-

   24. ZTZack Telander1:04:40

       You look awful.

   25. CWChris Williamson1:04:41

       I mean, look, that's the... The biggest takeaway has been that most people who have an issue with people losing weight through GLP-1s are not fat. S- n- people that have actually done the work the natural way, because they feel like they're being threatened.

   26. ZTZack Telander1:04:58

       Right.

   27. CWChris Williamson1:04:58

       Like, fa- you would think. You could imagine a different world where it was, eh, there was-

   28. ZTZack Telander1:05:02

       Well, see, but this, this is why, this is why performance matters more than everything, you know? Uh, you could, you can... I know this is gonna, again, this is gonna... Like, what's your 5K, bro? Like, what's your... Can you, like, go up a set of stairs without huffing and puffing? Can you just walk around? Like-

   29. CWChris Williamson1:05:18

       Mm-hmm.

   30. ZTZack Telander1:05:19

       ... yeah, you, you took a bunch of GLP-1s to lose, you know, 30 pounds, but, like, are you capable physically? And the answer is no, you're not. So it's like, I still am... You know, that's, that's at least what people could hang their hat on, who did it the right way.
9. 1:12:33 – 1:20:52

   What Zack Learnt From Running For 100 Days

   1. CWChris Williamson1:12:34

      What have you learned from running for 100 days?

   2. ZTZack Telander1:12:36

      Oh, dude, I have a great analogy for this. I was thinking about this on the way here. Uh, it's like showing up to a classroom. So your mind is the class of kids. Let's say like 16-year-old kids. And you show up and you're the substitute teacher. Those kids are not listening. They're like, "Fuck you." You, you can't even be like, "All right guys, put your phones away." They're like, "Nah, fuck you, dude." That's your first run.... for me. My mind was like, "This is terrible, this is terrible, this is the worst thing ever. We're gonna stop." And I'm like, "Ugh, you know what? Screw it. Like, we'll get out of class early." That was day one, you know? Day 50, you're like, phones are away, kids are still interrupting. You're kind of able to, like, get out the work that needs to be done, but the kids are still not listening. By day 100, today, which is amazing, I already did my ... It's like, you can look at the kids and be like, "All right, we're doing what we need to do," and everyone's like, "Yeah, I know." And they, they look up and they're like, "Can we get our phones out?" And you're like, "No."

   3. CWChris Williamson1:13:33

      What do you mean-

   4. ZTZack Telander1:13:33

      No, no, no.

   5. CWChris Williamson1:13:33

      ... by the kids? What are they?

   6. ZTZack Telander1:13:34

      It's like, that's your mind being like, "This is so annoying, I really don't wanna do it." It is a distinct... This is why I truly believe, like, when I say the word run, go for a run, or running, almost universally, the response is, "Oh, God, no. No way." Because when you start, your heart rate goes up, your muscles fatigue, and you want to stop. Period. You just want to. If you're on a bike, you can sit and you can go a little bit slower.

   7. CWChris Williamson1:14:05

      Mm.

   8. ZTZack Telander1:14:05

      You know, rower, you're sitting. You know, it's something distinctly about running that is just brutal in that way. And so my approach to this, and I have since, I think it's a million views. I was like, "Guys, I'm a running influencer now." Uh, and I call it gaslighting yourself into becoming a runner. Essentially, if we look at what running is, it's hopping from one foot to the other, just doing that. So, what I want you to do is as little effort as humanly possible hopping from your left foot to your right foot, and then doing that in succession. Really minimal effort. Now, we're just gonna lean forward a little bit and move forward. I don't give a shit what your pace is. I don't care at all. I want you to do that for 20 minutes. And like, accidentally, you're gonna run, like, a mile and a half. And you'll look at me and you'll be like, "I have not run over 400 meters in two decades, bro." I go, "Exactly. This is what it is." So, I started, and I was just like, "I'm just gonna see if I can hop for 40 minutes." I didn't even look at how far I ran, but it was always over, like, two and a half miles or whatever. And I just kept doing that over and over again. And then someone would be like, "Hey, do you wanna run with me?" I'd be like, "I'm not very good, but yeah." And I would go and I would die because I c- tried to keep up with them. And it's just, like, you're just constantly over- you're r- overreaching and you're coming back. And I'm just a noob, I don't know what the fuck I'm doing, dude. Like, I'm, I'm new to this. But I had to eliminate my ego entirely. There was no pace. There is no Zach the runner. There's no gear that I have to buy. There's no nothing. It's just hop from one leg to the next (laughs) for 40 minutes.

   9. CWChris Williamson1:15:49

      Why is running taking off so much at the moment, do you think?

   10. ZTZack Telander1:15:52

       I think, um, influence, you know? I, I would be remiss if I said that I'm not hopping on a trend. But the reason I started was I had this idea, I was taking a shit and I was like, "Hey, it'd be really cool to run a mile in 10 minutes, and then tomorrow try to run it in 9:50, and then the next day of 9:40." That's why I started posting and that's why I started running every day. And today is the 100th day of doing that. And not, not the mile thing, obviously. I gave up on that 22 days in and just continued to run, continued to post. But the reason why I think it's trending is... Yeah, influence. Like, just it's c- it looks cool. The bodies are cool that are doing it. And we can get into the hybrid thing too. Um, but the reality is, you're taking this aspect of fitness that everyone, once you go to the gym and once you grow muscle, you're like, "This aspect of fitness, I'm genuinely not gonna like." The cardio aspect. The f- the... And it's a hugely important. Scientifically, like, it is the biggest. You know, you've had... Have you talked to Peter Attia on here? That's his thing too. It's like, uh, CRF, cardio respiratory fitness, is, like, the most important thing, period. Um, also having muscles as well. And once you have muscles, you're like, "I don't wanna do this." So, what the runners have figured out, or the people who want to run, is, like, we have hacked our brains into, like, kind of, like, competing to get better times and to see how far we can run. And now we have this aspect of our fitness that is now taken care of because we're, we're legitimizing it in our mind, if that makes sense.

Episode duration: 1:47:38