Evolution, Meaning & Managing The NYSE's Social Media | Matthew Kobach | Modern Wisdom Podcast 216

Matthew Kobach 0:00 If you're someone who's chasing, uh, that social status, that, to feel good about yourself, think about how social media then plays into our evolutionary predilections. So I'm chasing this high of, like, approval from other people and I'm chasing, like, yeah, I'm working out, I'm getting fit and I'm doing all this. And then I'm able to post a shirtless picture of me on Instagram, that then it gets 1,000 likes. And you can see how it's, like, this is all just a big reward, seeking social status, seeking pride. Like, that's why social media has totally ... And I don't mean this in a, in, like, a bad way, but you can see that social media has hijacked that, or, like, used it to their advantage.

Chris Williamson 0:37 I'm joined by Matthew Kovach. Matthew, welcome to the show.

Matthew Kobach 0:41 Thank you. Super excited to be here.

Chris Williamson 0:43 Pleasure to have you on, man. That facial hair is absolutely crushing it. It's making me wistful for my old mustache, which is now gone.

Matthew Kobach 0:49 (laughs) If, uh, if people are listening to this, I do have a mustache. It's been four months since I've had to see anybody.

Chris Williamson 0:56 (laughs)

Matthew Kobach 0:56 So I decided in that four months to grow a mustache 'cause ... really to see if I could. Like, that wa- ... it's a challenge to myself, and it turns out I can.

Chris Williamson 1:04 Every guy that I know who's had latent mus- mustache desire for the last few years of their life-

Matthew Kobach 1:11 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:11 ... has been like, "Yes! This is the opportunity I've been looking for. A global pandemic when I don't have to see anyone."

Matthew Kobach 1:16 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:16 "Let's grow some ridiculous facial hair."

Matthew Kobach 1:19 It's ... The pandemic has been bad for a lot of people, but great for mustaches.

Chris Williamson 1:23 (laughs) I think the stock price of mustaches-

Matthew Kobach 1:25 (laughs) Mustaches.

Chris Williamson 1:26 Anyone that has long mustaches at the, in February time, what a return.

Matthew Kobach 1:33 They've seen, they've, they've seen hacker returns, that's for sure.

Chris Williamson 1:37 For sure, man. So, um, talk us through, give us a bit of background

Chris Williamson 1:40 to you. What do you do? What have you ... wha- what do you, what do you do?

Matthew Kobach 1:43 Yeah. So if anyone happens to know who I am, it's solely because of Twitter. So, uh, over the past, maybe 14, 15, 16 months, I've built up a bit of a persona on Twitter just by regularly tweeting, just by putting out stuff, uh, really every day. I, I make it a, a goal myself to do it once a day. Social media rewards consistency, so literally however long ago it was, I made a pact with myself that I was gonna take everything I knew about social media and apply it to my own personal profile and just see what happens. And it just, it caught fire, to be honest. You know, it's a little bit of luck, little bit of, um, knowing what I'm doing. And over the past 16 months, it's gone from, like, 1,000 to, you know, 65,000, whatever it might be. And, uh, and it was because I, I, I work professionally in social media, so I've been doing this for over 10 years, and I know what kinda works. I at least know what works for brands and I kinda decided, why don't I take that same concept, apply it to my own personal profile, and not do it in a way that's deceiving or that I'm not being true to what I think or w- or who I am. But just, like, let's write tweets in a way that I know works. Let's talk about things that I know people are interested in. And it, and it took off. It, it ... you know, here we are. Now I'm on your podcast 'cause I'm -

Chris Williamson 2:59 (laughs) Damn right.

Matthew Kobach 2:59 -- meant

Matthew Kobach 3:00 to be on it.

Chris Williamson 3:00 Yeah. Exa- exactly. So i- I find it really interesting, I've got a number of buddies that work in the social media world, and there does seem to be two very distinct types, especially as you get higher up. There's one type that, uh, Steve Bartlett from, uh, a company Social Chain in the UK, which my buddy works at-

Matthew Kobach 3:18 Yep.

Chris Williamson 3:18 ... um, who, exactly as you said, takes the principles, applies them to his own. Then there's his business partner, Don McGregor, also a good buddy of mine, past Modern Wisdom guest twice, who doesn't give a fuck about social media.

Matthew Kobach 3:31 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 3:31 He's like, "That's work. This is home. I'm, I'm gonna draw a line in the sand."

Matthew Kobach 3:36 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 3:36 Uh, so it's, it's interesting to see what happened. So what were, what were the principles? You said that you were consistent, um, targeted-

Matthew Kobach 3:42 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 3:42 ... uh, messages. What else did you do?

Matthew Kobach 3:45 Mm-hmm. So one, one key thing, uh, that I think a lot of people leave out is that they're not focused enough on social media. So, you know, like, we're all complicated, interesting people that have ... You know, I might like to go kayaking, and then I might like to, uh, think about philosophy, and then I might like to pet my dog, and you wanna share all those things in your social media. The problem is when you're on social media, you're more like a TV channel, you know? You're more like ESPN where you've gotta kinda stick to one programming if you want people to follow you. So you really have to narrow in what it is that you talk about. So even using you for an example, you've already, you've got ... it's the same idea with your podcast. If all of a sudden you started ... had a, a guest on tomorrow that wanted to talk about cricket, people are gonna be like, "Well, why, why is this episode on Modern Wisdom?" Um, so really, you just use that same concept and apply it to social media and you apply it to your personal brand, and that's how you start, uh, getting a following and getting people interested in what you have to say and building a community. I mean, you absolutely have a community around your podcast, and social media works the same way.

Chris Williamson 4:45 What were you talking about, then? What have you been tweeting about for the last 18 months?

Matthew Kobach 4:49 Yeah. So a lot of it was about social media. Um, just kinda ... and about content in general. About the stuff that works and the stuff that doesn't work. Social media was interesting because it came up w- you know, what, 2004, I guess, is when Facebook started. And when it first kinda got big, when it was clear that brands were gonna be using it, there was, like, a land grab by, by people that were just kinda throwing out, like, "Do this to grow your following and do this to get engagement." And that kind of worked in social media 1.0, but now we're to a point where that stuff doesn't work anymore. Either the algorithm changed or they have ... uh, you know, there's new platforms that you just can't game the system that way. And so I just started tweeting matter-of-factly, which, again, works. Be, be direct, be concise about stuff that works and stuff that doesn't work. And I think people found it somewhat refreshing. You know, it wasn't ... I- if you follow social media stuff on, on social media, you get a lot of, like, "Just be authentic," or, you know, "Social media's meant to be social." It's been repeated so many times, it just doesn't mean anything. Like, that's not helpful to someone who's trying to get better at it. So I would literally do things like if you're on Instagram, you're gonna post a photo that's this size. If you're on Twitter, you've gotta, you know, tweet every day or you've gotta be consistent or you gotta narrow in your focus. And it was the stuff that these people kinda ... that work in the industry knew to be true.You know, it's like they felt it, and that's what key to getting retweets. It's this thing that, like, you kinda feel in yourself that, that you just haven't articulated yourself. And then when you see someone else articulate it, they've now spoken for you and they're likely to retweet it. And so that's as- as simple as it was. If you can tap into what someone else is thinking and do their ... you know, put it on paper, like, that's how you, y- you get people that are like, "I like the way this person thinks because they think like I think." And, and that's really what I did. And, uh, and then on top of it, I just happened to be interested ... This is actually how I found your podcast. I happen to be interested in philosophy and happiness and, you know, making my life as enjoyable as possible. And, uh, I feel like you probably ... there'll be some overlap with, with your interests as well. Uh, y- you look for, like, this really, really old advice that has stood the test of time. Like, I don't want someone's advice from five years ago.

Chris Williamson 6:59 (laughs)

Matthew Kobach 6:59 I want someone's advice from 2,000 years ago that's still relevant today. And so I just started taking that. I mean, like, stoicism kind of stuff, like, you can apply it to social media. A- and so that's all I would do. I would take this, like, philosophical lens, just took it and look at content. And so many of my tweets, I swear to God, if you take out the word social media in the tweet and replace it with life-

Chris Williamson 7:21 (laughs)

Matthew Kobach 7:21 ... I've just plagiarized it from someone who wrote it 2,000 years ago. But it- it just resonates. People under- it's these- these beautiful concepts that people get. And you can literally do it with anything. You can take out social media, put it in motorcycle repair, put it in canoeing, put it in friendship. Uh, it's like the ... Like, the ... A lot of the big problems we've had in life, people have been thinking about for a lot- lot of years. So use their wisdom and apply it to- to the problems we're facing today.

Chris Williamson 7:47 I wonder if Seneca knew 2,000 years ago-

Matthew Kobach 7:49 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 7:50 ... that he would be providing you with content. (laughs)

Matthew Kobach 7:53 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 7:54 In a co- in a couple of millennia, there's ... some guy-

Matthew Kobach 7:56 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 7:56 ... is gonna remove some of the words from this, put social media in, and get 1,000

Chris Williamson 8:00 retweets.

Matthew Kobach 8:01 Uh. (laughs) I- I would love to thank him if I had the chance. There's no way he ever could conceive of that. But, like, if you really think about Twitter too, it's no different than that kind of philosophy. Uh, uh, like, that's why I love Twitter so much, is, uh, there are these ways to spout out wisdom, to, uh, to be pithy, to- to kinda say these things that, like ... Uh, the reason I like pithy sayings and- and the reason I like Twitter is because there's a way that you can say certain things and it just hits you. You know? Uh, and- and it's different than a long form conversation like this, which is equally as valuable. Not saying it isn't. But there's ways that you can say certain things that it just hits someone right in the soul or right in the heart. And, uh, you know, if only for a second, you can kinda change their thinking or it kinda shakes them out of their day-to-day stuff. And- and I think that's what a lot of ancient wisdom does. And so I'm just kinda taking it. Sometimes I don't even get rid of the word life, I just keep it in.

Chris Williamson 8:53 (laughs)

Matthew Kobach 8:53 Uh, and other times I apply it to social media.

Chris Williamson 8:55 Yeah. Y- you're very, very correct about what you say, that, um,

Chris Williamson 9:00 small aphorisms can really make a big impact, because a large concept ends up being distilled down to probably one sentence description. And perfect example of that, I know that we're both fans of The Moral Animal by Robert Wright, and I was reading it this morning, and there was a sentence that stuck out to me, um, right in the middle of the book. It's, like, 60% of the way through. And it's the sentence which, to me, describes what most of the book is about. And it says, gen- uh, "Our genes did not design us to be happy, they designed us to be effective." And I'm like, "That's just some throwaway line in the middle of this huge, like, multi-hundred page book."

Matthew Kobach 9:41 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 9:42 But I remember the sentence, and the sentence is a distillation of the concept of the book.

Matthew Kobach 9:49 Yeah. A- a- and that's honestly how I go about tweeting, is I read books like that, I read stuff just 'cause that happens to be my hobby, it works out, and you get beautiful lines like that. You get ... Or you're just able to think about it and- and- and summarize it yourself. And that's what kinda goes through. Like, you see the ... You read lines like that and it hits you so hard that, like ... Uh, a- and I could go off on- on that for a while. Like, I love evolutionary psychology. I'm- I'm a full, you know ... If you wanna call it a cult, I'm in the evolutionary psychology cult. I've been- I've been ... Uh, I did a dissertation, started writing it, and that was my theoretical framework, was evolutionary psychology. And, uh ... And I- I've- I've sidetracked myself now 'cause you're talking about something I think out of the book.

Chris Williamson 10:29 Let's go down it. Let's go down ... Let's- let's tumble down that.

Matthew Kobach 10:31 Let's- let's do it.

Chris Williamson 10:32 Let's do it, man. Oh, I tell you what, before we go into that, who

Chris Williamson 10:35 do you think-

Matthew Kobach 10:35 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 10:35 ... is the best aphorist on the planet, in your opinion?

Matthew Kobach 10:39 Oh, man. Yeah, proba- probably Naval.

Chris Williamson 10:42 Oh, man. I know. I know. I don't- I don't-

Matthew Kobach 10:44 It's too classic and- and-

Chris Williamson 10:45 I don't wanna give the obvious answer, but he's-

Matthew Kobach 10:48 All right. How about this? How about ... There is ... I'll g- I'll give one that maybe some people don't know. There is someone called orange_book on Twitter.

Chris Williamson 10:54 Okay.

Matthew Kobach 10:55 So it's orange_book, I think underscore. So one word, orange_book. Uh, brilliant, lot of ... lot of that same stuff, lot about just how to live a better life, um, how to be happier, and just writes it in a way ... Like, the ... What I think a lot of people miss about Twitter, or don't understand about Twitter, is you can have these ideas but you also then have to get them on paper. You have to write them in a way that's easy to read. And, uh, this person is anonymous, or- or pseudonymous, and so I don't know who he is or she is. But, uh, the way that they write, the way that they think is just super clear, super concise, and it's ... i- it's one of those people that adds so much value to your timeline if you're a regular Twitter user.

Chris Williamson 11:31 I know. That's why Naval, as a guy who doesn't follow anyone and just tweets, like, single words sometimes or, like, couple of word sentences, has, like, nearly ... amassed, like, n- nearly a million followers now. And you're right-

Matthew Kobach 11:44 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 11:44 ... as much as I don't want it to be the obvious answer, it is for a reason. Know that there's a reason that Floyd Mayweather was the best boxer on the planet for a while. You don't wanna say that he is the best defensive boxer of all time, but he was. And Naval-

Matthew Kobach 11:56 Right.

Chris Williamson 11:57 Naval's the Floyd Mayweather of aphorisms, man, with a

Chris Williamson 12:00 little bit more humbleness.

Matthew Kobach 12:01 He- he is.And I (laughs) would say a healthy more dose of humbleness if we're comparing him to Floyd Mayweather. Uh, but, like, and even Naval aside, like, you can see the reason someone like him is so popular. And you can, people can mimic this, and it's, it's certainly just a style of writing, but it, it's the fact that there's this sense that so much wisdom is packed into just such a tight, concise, uh, package that that's what makes it so interesting and makes it, uh, so relatable and, and so easy to understand. It's almost like a ... You know the, like, a picture's worth a thousand words? You can have tweets that are 10 words, but they feel like a thousand words, and that's how he tweets, and that's how some of these, uh, people that are so popular, like, they tweet the same way. And, and it's that same idea of the, of the moral animal, s- uh, summarization you gave. In one sentence, you understand how we're designed. We're not designed to be happy. We're not even necessarily designed to, to reproduce. We're designed to reproduce specific genes.

Chris Williamson 12:56 (laughs)

Matthew Kobach 12:56 So you got a gene that doesn't care if it's, like, uh, if it's doing something good or bad. It's just like d- will this gene multiply next time? Like, will it be around? And, like, that's all it really boils down t- to. And, uh, and, and I'll go down this rabbit hole just for a second. That's why I, I love thinking about evolutionary psychology is once you know how we're programmed, you can think, how do we, how do we communicate? How do we relate to people? How do I ... If I'm a brand, how do I sell stuff? How do I get people excited? How do I kinda make a cult following out of this brand that I'm representing? Uh, and whether or it's yourself, uh, there's just so many, uh, things to understand about human nature that you can then look at and apply it to any part of your life. And I just happen to be in marketing, happen to be in social media, but you could use it in sales. You could use it in presentations. You could use it in podcasts. Like, uh, it's just, it applies to literally everything. That's why I think it's just such a beautiful theory to, to just have in the back of your head and have dancing around there at all times.

Chris Williamson 13:50 Yeah, relationships, family life, uh-

Matthew Kobach 13:53 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 13:53 ... friendships, everything. Um, uh, I th- I genuinely believe that

Chris Williamson 14:00 evolutionary psychology is the ultimate red pill.

Matthew Kobach 14:03 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 14:04 It stops you from seeing matrix and starts you seeing code. But it does it in a way that means that, I don't know whether you found this, when I started reading it, I started slowing down a lot. I became less effective in the real world because I was-

Matthew Kobach 14:16 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 14:17 ... triple, quadruple checking everything that ... I'm like, "Oh, so why do you think that?" What does it say about me that I'm asking myself, "Why did you say that?" What does it say about me that I'm asking, "What did you ... What does it say about me?" And you just end up this, like, constant regression all the way back.

Matthew Kobach 14:33 Oh.

Chris Williamson 14:33 You know what I mean?

Matthew Kobach 14:34 Oh, a- absolutely. That's what one th- one concept I've been kinda playing with, and I'm real bad at it, and it's super, li- it's super, like, down the rabbit hole kinda thing, but it's a sense of, like, identity. Like, who are you? What do you think? And if you can lose your own sense of identity, if you can just say, like, "I'm just w- another person in this big blue planet," whatever, uh, it's easier to understand your own thinking. So, like, when you, like, you going down, like, "Why did I say that?" "Well, he responded to this, and I said that and that and that." And you realize, like, that's kinda how you're hardwired. But we have such an ego. You wanna defend everything you said. You wanna defend everything you think. But as soon as you ... if you can just take a step back and think, "You know what? This, uh, this is just some person doing something. Let me try to disassociate with what that person did," even though it's yourself. And that's how you can better understand all this stuff and, and hopefully make better decisions. Now, it's next to impossible. It's really hard, and I'm not good at it by any means. I'm ... You know, I, I've got an ego. I've got ... I take things personally all the time. But the best thing you can do, like, if you're ever in an argument and you can just, like, take a step back and think like, "These are just two people who are, aren't communicating properly," you can then all of a sudden be a lot more logical and see the other person's point of view so much quicker than if you go, "That person hurt my feelings, and they did something wrong."

Chris Williamson 15:45 (laughs)

Matthew Kobach 15:45 "And now I'm mad and I'm upset about it." But again, we're, we're animals that are designed (laughs) to have emotional reactions. So it takes a lot of practice to, to do that. It takes a lot of practice to see, uh, like how we're programmed. It takes a lot of practice to see that, like, I'm reacting like this because at some point, it benefited my ancestors to react like this.

Chris Williamson 16:03 (laughs)

Matthew Kobach 16:03 And I've got to be a smarter person. I, you know, like, I've got, we've got the, uh, frontal lobe capacity to realize that just 'cause we're programmed this way doesn't mean we have to act this way. It means we're likely to act this way. It means that we wanna act this way, but it doesn't mean that we have to act this way.

Chris Williamson 16:16 It's all well and good saying, "This is

Chris Williamson 16:20 my gene expressing itself through feelings," but when you get sadness, happiness, anger, any emotion, it feels ... It, it, it's not as logical as that, right? It is a sensation.

Matthew Kobach 16:33 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 16:33 It is the expression of that gene giving you a sensation in yourself that causes you to act in a particular way. If you haven't been around-

Matthew Kobach 16:42 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 16:42 ... people for a while and you start to get lonely, that yearning for people is to get yourself back to the tribe. But it just feels-

Matthew Kobach 16:50 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 16:50 ... like loneliness. It feels like some-

Matthew Kobach 16:52 Yep.

Chris Williamson 16:53 ... curse bestowed from the gods, or on the positive side, some sort of blessing that's been handed to you. You know?

Matthew Kobach 16:58 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 16:59 That feeling after you complete a workout. You don't think, "Oh, that was me expanding my domain of competence."

Matthew Kobach 17:04 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 17:04 And it ... You know? Like, it's not, that's not what you think.

Matthew Kobach 17:07 No.

Chris Williamson 17:08 But that is what's happening. And learning that-

Matthew Kobach 17:10 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 17:11 ... slowly as Robert Wright continues to ph- deep throat me with this evolutionary psychology red pill ... Um-

Matthew Kobach 17:18 (laughs) Th- that's a hell of a metaphor there, (laughs) ooh.

Chris Williamson 17:21 It is one-

Matthew Kobach 17:21 We don't have, we don't have these i- in the States. (laughs)

Chris Williamson 17:23 Hey, look, you get a little bit colorful language. It is our language. We'll Anglicize what we want. We'll spell everything with an S. We'll add U's into, like, every word that we can.

Matthew Kobach 17:32 Uh-huh.

Chris Williamson 17:33 Uh, and we'll talk about Robert Wright deep throating-

Matthew Kobach 17:37 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 17:37 ... a red pill, yeah?

Matthew Kobach 17:38 Uh-huh. (laughs) Um, I, I, I just love this. One, one thing too is it's, it is so hard to be in the throes of it, to be feeling something emotional, and to take that step back. And what really helps me is I'm very lucky. I have a fiance, and we're really good at kinda holding each other accountable when something like that happens. And it literally happened today. I moved out in New York. I had to ship a bunch of packages. And for no reason, the mail just returned them back to a place that we don't live anymore.And I got super frustrated, got a little stressed out, like, "How are we gonna get this?" And, um, you know, like, that's your, you know, that's your body, like, in f- fight or flight. But there's literally nothing I can do about it right now. So, you know, she's like, "Relax," like, "take a breath." Like, there's noth- like, we can't solve this right now. We're gonna have to figure out a solution. Like, we'll, uh, get a friend to come over and do it, but, like, literally stressing about it right now does you no good. It's just going to make you more unhappy. Um, and I was getting ready for this. She's all, like, uh, uh, she didn't say this, but this is what I internalized. It's like, do I really want to be stressed out for this podcast that I'm excited to go on, for this person that I'm eager to talk to? And you can see so many issues in people's lives where they kind of let these little stressful things build up, and then you come out and explode or that you're not your best possible version of yourself when you're having a conversation like this, and you're not expressing what you actually think, and you're not having a, a rational train of thought or a rational mind. So it's so important to be able to do that and then to surround yourself with people who think the same way, and that's really what I'm trying to do going forward, is who, who, who thinks the same way that I do, who can reel me in?

Chris Williamson 19:10 Yeah.

Matthew Kobach 19:10 'Cause I'm not perfect at it, by any means. Um, and then who are the people that don't do that, that don't control their emotions, that do go and stress about things and bring you down? Um, you know, take a step away from those people and take a step closer to the people that, that understand this and want to get better at it.

Chris Williamson 19:25 You, the external accountability is such, such an assistance, man. Like, it's such an unfair advantage. I've been thinking about this a lot. I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on this. So this is very trite

Chris Williamson 19:35 to say. If you want to go fast, go alone. If you want to go far, go together. I'm aware that that's, like-

Matthew Kobach 19:41 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 19:41 ... off the back of a bumper sticker somewhere. Um, but ... (laughs)

Matthew Kobach 19:44 Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's the perfect tweet.

Chris Williamson 19:45 Um-

Matthew Kobach 19:45 It's a perfect tweet.

Chris Williamson 19:46 Hey, look, 1,000 retweets. Um, but-

Matthew Kobach 19:50 Uh-

Chris Williamson 19:50 I've been thinking about that an awful, awful lot, about where the optimal line is for solitude versus relying on others. Um, and as someone who's 32 and still single, it's interesting for me to see the pace at which my buddies are, are, are moving, and I think that there's been ... I've had a disproportionate advantage up to now, but I'm now starting to see that situations that perhaps might be diffused by a partner or by, um, like, uh, having a family, having dog, having kids, whatever it might be, that distraction is actually now the tables are starting to turn. Does that make sense? Like-

Matthew Kobach 20:29 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 20:29 They're ... Literally-

Matthew Kobach 20:30 Absolutely.

Chris Williamson 20:30 ... I'm watching that go fast in the beginning, like tortoise versus hare situation play out in front of my eyes.

Matthew Kobach 20:37 Mm-hmm. It, it's funny. I think this goes back to a concept. You've talked to ... You've had Roy Southerland on, right?

Chris Williamson 20:43 I did.

Matthew Kobach 20:44 And one, one of his things is, like, the op- opposite of a good idea is sometimes another good idea, you know? And it's that same kinda concept. It's like the opposite of going fast can also ... Like, the opposite of, like, having success by going fast can also be having success by going slow.

Chris Williamson 20:57 (laughs)

Matthew Kobach 20:57 And I think some of these, it's, it's like, it depends on what stage you are in your life. It depends what you want to accomplish. And so I can certainly see a scenario where you're alone, and you're able to spend time, and you'll be able to, like, kinda get your head right that you can't do with someone else.

Chris Williamson 21:09 But you just mentioned before we got-

Matthew Kobach 21:11 Um, and I w-

Chris Williamson 21:11 You, you mentioned before we got started that the mustache is going because you've got to go to a wedding.

Chris Williamson 21:15 Like, there's 50%-

Matthew Kobach 21:16 It's true. I-

Chris Williamson 21:17 50% of the weddings that you need to go to are your partner's friends, and 50% of them-

Matthew Kobach 21:22 Definitely.

Chris Williamson 21:22 ... are your friends. So if I don't have to go to the wedding, I do 50% fewer weddings than everyone else. That's a competitive advantage. Like, you cannot get out.

Matthew Kobach 21:30 Yes, yeah.

Chris Williamson 21:31 Even Naval Ravikant can't get out of going to his wife's friend's wedding. Like, it ain't happening, you know? And so-

Matthew Kobach 21:39 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 21:39 ... that, there's a perfect example.

Matthew Kobach 21:42 Mm-hmm. I ... Well, right, and it ends up being a, a trade-off o- obviously. And so you get to ... A- and, but a lot of it too is you end up, if you can ... In solitude, if you can, when you're single, when you're in your 20s and 30s, depending on when you get married and settle down, which by the way, I'm slightly older than you, but I was doing the same thing. At 32, I was single, um, ju- like, spending time with myself. Like, I had a dog. Like, we would go to the dog park every day. I'd walk a trail for an hour, and, um, you know-

Chris Williamson 22:07 So you're saving this hope for me yet.

Matthew Kobach 22:08 ... sometimes take a notebook and ... This hope for you, yeah. But no, but it's like I was in the exact same shoes and, uh, and, and honestly, doing this, like, uh, you're obviously in a situation where you're setting yourself up to succeed not only right now, but later. Like, talking to all these interesting people, uh, not that I'm interesting, but all the other people that you've had on before. But talking to them and, like, getting all these different perspectives on lives, like, you got a lot of good stuff, like, bouncing around in your head. Even if you don't, uh, you know, like, write it down or repeat it or something, it's still in there. It's still processing. And so whenever it is that you, you know, settle down, start a family, whatever it is, you've already got such a good foundation that it's gonna end up being ... It's, it's kinda like you've put up all the, all the bricks of the house, and you're like, "All right. I ... There's literally no more bricks I can put up. Like, I g- I guess I could add some more bricks, but it's not gonna make the house any better. It's time to add some drywall. It's time to add some paint and some furniture and stuff." And that's where you get to a point where someone else is able to help you, uh, add those things. Um, so it's really up to me.

Chris Williamson 23:06 That's a really nice analogy, man. I, I, I love it. I had a ... An- Andrew Scott was on the show the other day, a longevity expert. He said, "More women-"

Matthew Kobach 23:14 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 23:14 "... in

Chris Williamson 23:15 2019 had children over the age of 40 than under the age of 20."

Matthew Kobach 23:21 Oh, wow. Yeah. I, I-

Chris Williamson 23:23 Serious, man.

Matthew Kobach 23:24 Honestly, you have to kind of believe that too. Uh, 'cause I think there is a lot of people that are kinda doing what we're doing, where you wanna get yourself right first. You wanna make sure that, like, you're the best possible version, or at least you're on the right track. And, uh, a- and obviously you have to have the means to do it and stuff, but, uh, I, I ... Like, I'm in the same boat. I'm not rushing to have kids. I wanna be ... I wanna have everything feel secure, feel right, and, and feel like I'm ready for this next step as opposed to just being thrown into the fire (laughs) and, like, hope for the best, kiddo. Good luck.

Chris Williamson 23:55 I know. I know, yeah, just jump into the deep end. Tell me about the stock exchange.

Chris Williamson 24:00 Tell the, tell the people that don't know-

Matthew Kobach 24:01 Yeah, yeah.

Chris Williamson 24:02 ... what you did for the last, last few years-

Matthew Kobach 24:03 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 24:04 ... what, what you did.

Matthew Kobach 24:06 So I was the head of social media and digital media for the New York Stock Exchange. Recently left that job, um, uh, just a few weeks ago.And what I did was, they didn't have a social media, uh, presence really before I came. This is 2014. And so I had to create it. I had to, uh, figure out what we were gonna do, figure out what platforms we were gonna be on, and it was so much fun. I was very lucky to, uh, be in a company that have a boss that just was kinda like, "All right, if you think it's a good idea, do it." Which is unbelievably empowering for any job. Like, this is outside of social media. If you have a boss that trusts you, but especially in social media where it's so public-facing. You know? Like, I mess up, CNBC reports on it.

Chris Williamson 24:49 (laughs)

Matthew Kobach 24:49 Like, it's-

Chris Williamson 24:50 (laughs)

Matthew Kobach 24:51 ... like, that's a- that's a lot of stress, especially the first time. I, and I know every person who's ever done social media for a brand, it's kinda like that first tweet, that first post, it's like being on top of a cliff and, like, you're looking over, yeah, oh, for sure, and you're, like, looking over the edge and you're like, "All right, I gotta jump, I gotta jump." And you're, and you just kinda gotta psych yourself up to do it. Obviously you do it 1,000 times, it- it become, you know, second nature. But to

Matthew Kobach 25:15 know that, like, if you mess up, you're gonna trend for the wrong reasons-

Chris Williamson 25:18 (laughs)

Matthew Kobach 25:18 ... and there's gonna be, uh, reporters calling. Especially for an institution like the New York Stock Exchange. Like, you can imagine one wrong tweet and, you know, like, you could arguably move the markets with a wrong tweet or-

Chris Williamson 25:30 Oh (laughs) .

Matthew Kobach 25:30 ... or with, uh, you know, if someone had ill intentions.

Chris Williamson 25:33 Oh my God (laughs) . The stakes-

Matthew Kobach 25:34 They've taken away all the passes from me now that- that I'm gone.

Chris Williamson 25:37 Thank God for that, yeah.

Matthew Kobach 25:38 So it's- Yeah, on me. But so anyways, so I did that and, uh, and what happened was the, no one really expected the New York Stock Exchange to be any good at social media. Uh, so the b- whi- which is good news for me, 'cause that means the bar was set incredibly low, and that's the secret to life. To have expectations super low and then making it so you can't help but to exceed them. Uh, it's funny, I was actually thinking about this, and I'll, again, I'm gonna go off on a tangent 'cause that's apparently just what I do. Uh, but think about, like, so much of your life is comparison. So it's kinda like you, if you live in this really nice subdivision and it's everyone's got all these beautiful houses and you've got the crappiest house in that subdivision, you're gonna kinda feel like you don't really have that good of a life. But if you live in a less nice subdivision, you have the same exact house and it just happens to be the nicest house in that subdivision, you're gonna feel like you're a king. And it's because you're comparing yourself to, you know, what's around you. And that was the same idea for the New York Stock Exchange. You were kinda comparing our- ourselves to other financial institutions which were unbelievably boring, unbelievably dry, unbelievably uninteresting. And so all it was was, like, what if we just kinda talk like we're a person? What if we put me on camera interviewing CEOs, uh, and really quick stuff, like, you know, 60 seconds, where we're able to demystify CEOs a little bit? 'Cause, uh, you know, with the Elon Musks and the Bezos and the Zuckerbergs, like, they become mythical creatures almost, you know? And so we wanted to just, we wanted to do a little bit like, CEOs are just regular people. And it was, and we did it super lo-fi, I've got my phone right here, it was literally, like, me grabbing a CEO, doing this-

Chris Williamson 27:14 (laughs)

Matthew Kobach 27:14 ... and just,

Matthew Kobach 27:15 and just talking to them. Completely disarmed the CEO, it felt super real, it didn't, you know, like, whenever you're watching a CEO talk they're hitting their talking points, they're talking to investors, they're, you know, they're super polished. But this completely disarmed them. And we could have fun little stupid, you know, questions that weren't about the stock price, that weren't about, you know, the next quarter. So it was this really unique way to, to talk about financial markets, to talk about businesses and to talk to CEOs. And, uh, and we were just making it up as we went along. You know, like Snapchat was invented, or like gained popularity while I was there. And it was like, "What are we gonna do on Snapchat? We should be on it." And that's when it turned into, "All right, I'll interview CEOs," like let's... And again, that's where it goes back to having a, a team that empowers you. I wa- I, I literally said, I'm like, "Are you all right if I'm on camera as the face of the New York Stock Exchange on social interviewing CEOs?" And they were like, "No, love it. Great. Do it. Like, we trust you." And so a- and that's why, again, bar was set low, had a team that really empowered me, and then we got noticed by, like, media outlets and, and stuff. So people wanted to write stories, people wanted to say, you know, like, "Wow, we didn't expect the New York Stock Exchange Pinterest page to be this good."

Chris Williamson 28:28 (laughs)

Matthew Kobach 28:28 "Why, why is it this good?" And it's like, "I mean, yeah, I appreciate it, it's good, but it's because you expected nothing."

Chris Williamson 28:33 (laughs)

Matthew Kobach 28:34 So as long as I had ed- like the, like again, the bar was one, I gave you a three out of ten, but-

Chris Williamson 28:39 (laughs)

Matthew Kobach 28:40 ... y- you know, three times expectations. Uh, so that, that's what I did for, for almo- or for five years, six years, whatever it was. Um, and then and then moved on, had a cool new opportunity and so I jumped into that.

Chris Williamson 28:52 You must have had some awesome experiences during that

Chris Williamson 28:55 time?

Matthew Kobach 28:55 Oh, for sure. If you go, I wish, I, I wish would've taken more pictures. Like, that's my biggest regret. If you go to my Instagram, which is the same as my Twitter, uh, you can see so many pictures of like so many cool celebrities and athletes and CEOs and stuff. Um, it wi- it was like a pinch yourself moment every day.

Chris Williamson 29:13 (laughs)

Matthew Kobach 29:13 Um, and I, I don't mean to say this right, I meant to se- say this part because, like, I literally still can't believe and still can't quite comprehend it. I remember I was interviewing Shaquille O'Neal for the second time and I just remember thinking, like, nowhere in my life plan-

Chris Williamson 29:28 (laughs)

Matthew Kobach 29:28 ... was this sentence ever gonna be, "I'm about to go interview Shaq again." And it was just so wild and so crazy. So, like, that, uh, that's why, like, uh, I'll have so many fond memories of that place. Like the, the amount of cool people I, I got to meet, like it, it was just through the roof. And, and again, the fact that I was able to use social media. You have someone who's super famous like Shaq come, he gets hounded. Everyone wants to talk with him, everyone wants his picture, everyone wants his autograph. But I legitimately had a business reason. So I can go up to their PR person and I go, "Hey, I know Shaq's here and he's talking about how he just joined the board of Papa John's, um, I do social media for the New York Stock Exchange. I'd love to get-"... 90 seconds with him so that he can promote the Papa John's thing. And they go, "Yeah, sure, great." So they push everyone away, I get to go in. Now, I've got, like, a whole crowd around me. Like, talk about, like, getting real good by doing something public. You've got, like, this whole floor of traders and all these people watching. But again, it's just me, him and a camera doing a quick little interview for 90 seconds because, you know, he's there to do press and I'm, you know... Social media is kind of press, it's at least publicity. I was able to do stuff like that on a regular basis. It was, it was just, you know... It's still surreal, to be honest.

Chris Williamson 30:34 (laughs) Dude, that must be so cool. Like, having memories like that from a job is worth an awful-

Matthew Kobach 30:41 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 30:41 ... awful lot. There's some things that, if you're fortunate, you can look

Chris Williamson 30:45 back on in your career and be really, really thankful that they happened. And, uh, it's-

Matthew Kobach 30:49 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 30:50 ... worth an awful lot more than the paycheck when it's like that. What's the atmosphere like in the New York Stock Exchange? Obviously we see these kind of quite clichéd-

Matthew Kobach 30:57 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 30:57 ... images of the guys with the-

Matthew Kobach 30:59 Uh-huh.

Chris Williamson 30:59 ... the pieces of paper shouting in the air, like-

Matthew Kobach 31:01 It is.

Chris Williamson 31:02 Is the kind of alpha male, a gram of caffeine per day atmosphere kind of s-... Does it permeate through to the social media floor?

Matthew Kobach 31:10 I'm, I'm happy you said, I'm happy you said (laughs) I'm happy you said caffeine.

Chris Williamson 31:13 Caffeine, yeah. I knew. (laughs)

Matthew Kobach 31:15 Uh, caffein, the, the, um... So, so a lot of it is done electronically now. So what you almost have... So you don't really have that... You know, like, you see it in the movies, you see it on TV. It's not quite like that anymore. You still have people there, but what they're doing is facilitating these trades electronically, so they're just really overseeing stuff. They'll get on the phone for large trades, they'll make sure... Like, they have a, um, uh, a phone where they can talk to the CFO of certain companies, vice versa, the CFO can talk to them if, if they don't like something that's going on with the stock or they have a question. Um, but yeah, it's, it ends up being a lot more quiet. It's a lot more like beeping and buzzing from the computers-

Chris Williamson 31:49 (laughs)

Matthew Kobach 31:49 ... than people expect. The, uh, the one exception, or the ... I shouldn't say the one exception, but the biggest exception is during the IPO time. And that's when, and an IPO is when a company goes from private to public. Uh, so you've got someone like Airbnb who's private right now. At some point they're going to go public, and when they do, they have to pick an exchange to go public on. And what that means when they go public is someone like me and you can buy shares. Like, me and you can't buy shares in Airbnb now, but when they're public, that's when you can just, you know, open your Robinhood account, whatever it might be, buy Airbnb. Uh, but what they've got to do is you've got this private market that has a bunch of shares, and then you have the public market that wants to buy shares. So they're pricing, they're trying to figure out the right price to open the stock at, at what price, like, what does the public want this stock at? And that's where you have traders who, like, in real time are yelling at each other, wanting to know what, like, the current, like, people... What, what are people offering? What are people offering to sell it at? What are people offering to buy it at? Uh, so that's super exciting and, and that stuff. Like, and I, again, I got to be in, like, the middle of that. Like, that's wild to me. And, and I got, I had plenty of traders... I'm sure if there's any trader listening to this, they're thinking, "Oh, that SOB, Matt Kovach, he got in my way so many times-"

Chris Williamson 32:55 (laughs)

Matthew Kobach 32:55 "... because he had to get a picture and a video." 'Cause you're, you're a little bit like a photographer. If you've ever had, like, a photographer at a sporting event, you have to get up close. You have to be unapologetic about getting in someone's way and getting the shot. And it's the same way with social media. Uh, you know, like, they didn't want... You know, our, our audience didn't want the shot where, like, I'm shooting this way and it's 20 feet away of a trader. They wanted the phone right in their face so I could see someone yelling and, and doing that. And, like, again, that's what sells our floor, that's what sells our product too, so it was justifiable that I was that close. But then they also have a job, so, you know, you kind of have these competing things. And you get to a good rhythm of they know who I am, I know who they are. We try to stay out of each other's way. Uh, but super exciting just being in the middle of that. Like, like, there's so many IPO pictures. You have all these major companies that have IPOed for the past five years. And you've got, like, Getty and, and, uh, you know, the stock pho- photos of the, of it. And I'm sitting there, like, I'm just next to the CEO just hanging out. Sadly, very embarrassingly, if you're on the podcast you can't see this, but I'm gonna, like... I'm just sitting there looking at my phone like this, like I (laughs) , like I don't care about anything, really.

Chris Williamson 33:55 Doing work. Yeah, exactly.

Matthew Kobach 33:57 I swear I'm working, but it looks like I'm just scrolling Instagram or something.

Chris Williamson 34:00 (laughs) Yeah. Just sat there texting, "So what are you having for dinner, honey? Uh, I really-"

Matthew Kobach 34:04 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 34:04 "... I really don't want Italian again. The last time that we got that." Snap. You in Bezos.

Matthew Kobach 34:09 Yeah. And then you've g- and then you've got, like, traders in the background, like, "Ah." Speaking of Snap, one of the... We had Snap go public there, which is awesome. You have Evan Spiegel and then his, uh... I th- I forget if it was wife or girlfriend at the time, but Miranda Kerr. They're there taking, like, Snapchat selfies with, like, the dog filter on their face. It's like, it's just super, again, surreal moment.

Chris Williamson 34:27 Very bizarre.

Matthew Kobach 34:28 Like, you're like, "This is the dude who did Snapchat with his wife putting on the dog filter with a tongue on the floor of the Stock Exchange. Like, it was just-

Chris Williamson 34:36 (laughs) At work.

Matthew Kobach 34:36 You know?

Chris Williamson 34:37 We're at work.

Matthew Kobach 34:37 Yeah. I'm just at work. Why did I quit? What am I doing?

Chris Williamson 34:40 I know, man.

Matthew Kobach 34:41 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 34:41 Um, have you checked out the r/wallstreetbets Reddit subthread?

Matthew Kobach 34:47 No. Uh-uh.

Chris Williamson 34:48 Oh, dude.

Matthew Kobach 34:48 Do I need to?

Chris Williamson 34:49 Oh.

Matthew Kobach 34:50 I don't spend nearly enough time on it.

Chris Williamson 34:53 Man, this is...

Chris Williamson 34:55 So these guys are the most outlandish traders on the internet. They made it to the front page of some huge financial magazine at the beginning of this year. Um, there's been all sorts of ongoing crazy litigation to do with it. It's, like, a million plus people now. But basically it's, it's people that are beyond reckless on Robinhood, like, insane calls and puts and, uh, uh, within-

Matthew Kobach 35:25 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 35:25 ... with ridiculous timeframes, like by the end of tomorrow. And there's people leveraging their entire net worth and more for internet points-

Matthew Kobach 35:34 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 35:34 ... from people that they're never going to meet. And they get immortalized on this, like-

Matthew Kobach 35:41 Oh.

Chris Williamson 35:41 ... uh, within this subcommunity. And there's some people that have made hundreds and hundreds of thousands of dollars in a couple of days, and then blown the entire amount and are now, like, 300 grand in debt. And it's just the most... There's a (laughs) , The Dankest Trades of WallStreetBets is a YouTube series.

Matthew Kobach 36:01 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 36:02 Um, which, like, summarizes each quarter's trades and goes back through it. Man, it is, it's intense. You will, you will be on glove it.

Matthew Kobach 36:12 I, I'm stressed out now. I don't know how they can handle this.

Chris Williamson 36:15 (laughs)

Matthew Kobach 36:15 It's like I can't ... I'm worried that these people don't know what the F they're doing.

Chris Williamson 36:19 I think that's the point, yeah.

Matthew Kobach 36:20 Like, oh, there's like ... I know it's the point. Oh, it's so ... Oh, it's like a ... Oh, my God. I'll, I'll try. I'll, I'll ... It can only look for so long.

Chris Williamson 36:27 Yeah.

Matthew Kobach 36:27 Look, I feel ... It, it, I think it brings ... Uh, I just ... It's, it's, it's just that, ugh.

Chris Williamson 36:31 Have you seen those ... You've seen those videos of the guys that do, they'll climb up a crane tower that's sort of 500 feet in the air?

Matthew Kobach 36:38 Yeah. Uh-huh. It's the same idea.

Chris Williamson 36:38 That's precisely the same feeling that you have when you watch Wall Street Bets on Reddit.

Matthew Kobach 36:44 Oh, my God. Oh, I, I just hope these ... I hope they're not kids-

Chris Williamson 36:46 Sweaty palms.

Matthew Kobach 36:47 But they are kids. And I hope they're responsible.

Chris Williamson 36:49 They-

Matthew Kobach 36:49 I know, I need, I need someone to be like, "Matt, you need to," (laughs) "you need to stop thinking about this. You're stressing yourself out."

Chris Williamson 36:55 (laughs) Exactly. We were talking about being mindful and re- reverting to the present earlier on.

Matthew Kobach 36:59 I know. It's ... What's funny too is working at the Stock Exchange, so many people ask me, they're like, "Give me stock tips. Give me advice." And my advice is so unbelievably boring.

Chris Williamson 37:07 (laughs)

Matthew Kobach 37:07 It's like, "Find a nice diversified ETF. Just put your money in it every month and don't touch it for 10 years." Like, that's what you do. And, uh, but everyone wants to, you know-

Chris Williamson 37:18 What's the stock pick of this year?

Matthew Kobach 37:20 ... short question first. (laughs)

Chris Williamson 37:20 Yeah, exactly. No, uh, dude-

Matthew Kobach 37:22 Yeah. Like, I-

Chris Williamson 37:23 You're the guy that's been stood on the,

Chris Williamson 37:25 the ground floor at the New York Stock Exchange for the last f- six years. And Morgan Housel is, as far as I'm concerned, one of the best sort of financial writers on the internet. And both of you said the same thing. Just find something aggregated that's not going to tank and don't touch your money and hold on. And when it goes low, hold on harder, and then keep holding on.

Matthew Kobach 37:49 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 37:49 And then maybe in a generation or two's time, you'll have some money. That's it.

Matthew Kobach 37:54 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 37:54 And it's so boring.

Matthew Kobach 37:55 It's-

Chris Williamson 37:55 It's so boring. Someone, they, what they want you to say is that-

Matthew Kobach 37:58 So boring.

Chris Williamson 37:58 ... at the beginning of February, you should've decided to go long on Tesla, because now it's up 4X.

Matthew Kobach 38:03 Yeah. Can you ... And, and, like, who would've ... No one in their right mind would've even said that. You know, like, that, that's a problem too is, like, you wanna do, um ... You know, if someone wants, like, a stock tip, like, what you're doing, it's like, you're literally asking someone to predict the future and to predict emotion. Like, the ... You can't ... It's really hard to argue some stocks. I'm, I won't name any by name, but they don't necessarily trade on fundamentals. They don't trade on stuff that anyone could see. They trade because people love the brand or love the company or just love the idea. And I don't know how to gauge that. I don't know how to predict that. I don't know how to say, "People love this stock and they're gonna keep buying it." Like, maybe, maybe not. I really don't know. But, you know, it's not like, "Oh, I know this new chip manufacturer just, uh, cut their, you know ... They got a new, they got a new plant in whatever country and it's gonna cut their prices by half." Like, that's the only reasonable type of information that you could use that would then be like, "All right, and I don't think it's been priced into the stock price, so that's a good buy, in my opinion." But, like, s- it, it, the past four months, it's just been, like, mostly emotion, it seems like, at least the big names. So, like, I, I don't know. Like-

Chris Williamson 39:12 What was handling the social media like during the last four months?

Matthew Kobach 39:18 So it became ... Um, so one, we don't actually talk about specific stocks that much. We don't talk about, uh, stock prices. The, the reason being is that, like, so legally our restrictions were you cannot talk about, like, what a stock's gonna do or what you think it's gonna do. We can't, like, give financial advice. We gotta stay away from that stuff. So it was very black and white about what we could and couldn't do. You could talk about what a stock is currently, like what it has done. Like, so it closed today at $70. That was fine. You can't say anything forward-looking. That was a big no-no. But what happened was we were a little, uh, uh ... Like, we had some fun, you know. Like, if there was a cool trend on social media that made sense for us, we would join it. Um, you know, again, it was me on camera, like, paling around with CEOs, like it was showing them in a different light. All of a sudden, in, what was it, February? Everything just starts tanking. So you're having, like, thousand point drops in the Dow. And, and the way the Stock Exchange is set up, if it drops quickly enough or by a certain percentage in a day, it literally freezes. So, like, you literally ... No one can trade for 15 minutes. It's like, "All right, guys, circuit breaker, 1:00."

Chris Williamson 40:25 What happens, what happens when that happens? Is there, like, a big red alarm bell-

Matthew Kobach 40:29 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 40:29 ... that goes somewhere?

Matthew Kobach 40:30 Yeah, it's just ... It's just, like, all of a sudden ... Nothing happens, but all of a sudden it goes. And, and it had ... I don't know that it happened. I'm pre- ... I'm gonna ... Someone feel free to reply and tell me the actual answer. But it'd been, like, a decade or two, I think, since it had happened last. Um, but all of a sudden, everything on the floor just, like, pauses. So it's, it's, uh ... And it's a different color. You got red and green. And I forget what it was. Maybe it was, like, yellow or something, and it was, like, just like X's.

Chris Williamson 40:53 (laughs)

Matthew Kobach 40:53 And so none of the screens, you could, like, trade. And, uh ... And it's an automatic thing. It's, it's, uh, it's a computer program, so once the-

Chris Williamson 41:02 A breaker, right? Yeah.

Matthew Kobach 41:02 Uh, yeah, once it hits the, I think it was 7%, once it hits that, it's literally no one can do anything, and you just hang out for 15 minutes. And it's real surreal. You've got everyone on the floor just kind of waiting for 15 minutes. Uh, but for us, what we wanted to do is we knew it was gonna happen. Like, you can kind of ... Before a, a stock ... Uh, before the market opens, you can see what the futures are trading at, and you can see that, like, the Dow's gonna open up or down whatever percent. And so if you see that it's gonna open down 6%, you know, like, oh, there's a chance that this could go further. So sitting there waiting. And for us what we wanted to do is when this started happening, one, we wanted to be very real time. We wanted people to get their information from us. So if the, if the stocks were paused trading, I was literally sitting there. I had the tweet ready, because I knew it was gonna happen. As soon as it did, I hit go. And the reason is we then became like a trusted source for that information. When people were doing stories about it, they saw our name. And so we got to get our brand out there significantly more than if we waited even a minute later. Uh, the other thing we did is now, I mean, people are losing money. You know, like, this is people's 401Ks. These are people's investments that maybe they're living off of, or at the very least, now panicked that, you know, you bought something and now it's down 20%.Um, so we just, we got rid of all, you know, kind of cute stuff. We got rid of all fun stuff, and it just became very matter-of-fact. "Here's where the market just opened at. Here's where the market just closed at. And let's talk to this person about what this means for, you know, their stock." So we really changed our tone overnight, almost. Uh, and so we ... You know, like, we're talking about people's money, and if money, if money's doing well, you can have some fun, you can be a little silly. But when people are losing money, you v- you know, that's when you kind of tighten the tie and you look a little more professional and, and you don't have as much fun.

Chris Williamson 42:47 Anyone that's ever been on a very long diet knows exactly the same feeling as when you've got money worries. It's like everything is ... Everything sucks.

Matthew Kobach 42:56 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 42:57 Everything that happens-

Matthew Kobach 42:58 Uh-huh.

Chris Williamson 42:58 ... in your life is like, "This thing happened, but I'm hungry." And it's the same as that. It's like, "This thing happened. My, my daughter just won at her football. That's great, but the stock market's just crashed. This thing happened, but the stock market's just crashed."

Matthew Kobach 43:10 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 43:10 So you're right. Like don't ... Anyone out there that is listening that is getting social media advice, if you're the guy from the CDC who looks after their social media-

Matthew Kobach 43:19 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 43:20 ... or the, the, the lady who looks after British Rail network or something like that, if everything goes down, don't-

Matthew Kobach 43:27 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 43:27 Don't do the TikTok dancing videos of everyone in the office. Like save that for another day.

Matthew Kobach 43:33 Yeah. It's also a good lesson, too. It's why we don't schedule anything. So a lot of social media managers will schedule stuff in advance. They get out a calendar. It's, you know, timely- it's evergreen kind of stuff. Like it works on a Tuesday as well as it works on a Saturday night. But especially on Twitter, you don't know what's going to happen. So you don't wanna ... Like I remember when Kobe Bryant died. Uh, all of a sudden, like all the TV stations are breaking to it. Is this news? We're still figuring out. Like no one really knows the information. Who does? And then if you're a brand and you're tweeting like, "LOL, ice cream Saturday."

Chris Williamson 44:02 (laughs)

Matthew Kobach 44:02 Like you look completely tone-deaf. You look like you're not paying attention. And, you know, you maybe just had something scheduled on a Saturday, but it's ... I will never schedule stuff for that reason, especially on Twitter, 'cause you just risk looking tone-deaf.

Chris Williamson 44:14 Well, one of the-

Matthew Kobach 44:14 I mean, you could ... With all the Black Lives Matter stuff-

Chris Williamson 44:15 Blackout Tuesday.

Matthew Kobach 44:16 ... like, uh, y- same thing.

Chris Williamson 44:16 Precisely. Yeah.

Matthew Kobach 44:18 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 44:19 Here's our new-

Matthew Kobach 44:20 So like there's just too much to-

Chris Williamson 44:21 ... new sale. Like imagine if someone-

Matthew Kobach 44:24 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 44:24 ... had done like a, a Black Fridays come this June or something like that, and it had actually (laughs) happened on that, on that Tuesday.

Matthew Kobach 44:31 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 44:32 That could have been a very, very-

Matthew Kobach 44:33 Oh.

Chris Williamson 44:33 ... unfortunate situation.

Matthew Kobach 44:36 Uh, uh, 100%. Uh, it's, so it's just not, it's just not worth the risk. I know the, um, person who heads up comms and, uh, social media for John Deere, the, the tractor company. And every morning, they literally take the temperature of what's going on in the world. And they're like, "All right. What's going on?" And they're a global company, so they're looking at different countries, they're looking at different cultures, and they're like, "All right, our job is to make sure that we're not saying anything that could now be insensitive, that could now be misconstrued." You, I mean, you've even got it with, uh, with COVID. The, y- let's say you had this like ad campaign with a bunch of people hugging. You've gotta scrap that. You can't have campaigns with people shaking hands or high-fiving. Like all this stuff changes so quickly that you, you've gotta be really, really nimble to make sure that you're not, um, you know, coming off insensitive.

Chris Williamson 45:22 Did you ever take your interest in evolutionary psychology and use it when watching the traders, and the atmosphere, and the personalities of the people that you saw on the New York Stock Exchange?

Matthew Kobach 45:33 I can't ... I, so I certainly applied it to the content we did. So like I, I've always ... So the ... I'll, I'll rewind a little bit. I didn't actually explain what I did a, a PhD in. Which, by the way, I dropped out. I did not finish the PhD. A lot of people think I have the PhD 'cause I say I pursued it. Just to be 100% certain, I do not have it. I'm a dropout, and I'm a very proud PhD dropout. I like to say I was smart enough to be a PhD dropout.

Chris Williamson 45:57 Nice.

Matthew Kobach 45:58 Um, what I did was ... This is in 2008, '09, '10, and so social media was like just kinda getting started. And I wanted to predict how people use social media. So that's why evolutionary psychology was such a, a, a robust theoretical framework to base predictions on how people would use social media. So that's when it became clear of like how to communicate on social media, how to do it if you're a brand. Like what are the kinds of stuff that people want to do? Like they wanna build communities. Like we're tribal, uh, uh, species, and so you wanna like take into account like those things. Like we're, um, a, a, a species that needs to communicate clearly to understand each other. And so, uh, was really invested in there. And so that's what I used evolutionary psychology from. If I was a trader myself when I was doing that, uh, I probably would try to think about it differently. But it was like my world never necessitated, you know, interacting with them in that fashion. It was ... My job was to like show emotion, because I understand that emotion sells the New York Stock Exchange, rather than explaining what our market model was. And so that means ... So for me, the evolutionary, uh, psychology aspect was let me get in this trader's space while he's shouting, and I'm gonna record a video. And that's what's gonna resonate with our audience, as opposed to like me talking, having like an interview with someone where they're kind of explaining what they do. Um, I, I'm sure there's a whole litany of things. Like if I, you know, wanted to think about evolutionary psychology and why people are nuts about trading certain stocks and other stocks, like I, I'm sure there's a totally ripe for, for exploration. But I've never ... I haven't spent much time thinking about it.

Chris Williamson 47:36 How many of your predictions about social media came true?

Matthew Kobach 47:42 Uh, well, so what I ended up doing is I was ... At the time, I was looking at, um, uh, interpersonal communication. And so it could ... And to be honest, it's been so long, I don't even remember what I ended up predicting. 'Cause what ended up happening was I would, uh ... And for anyone who has never done a dissertation, this is how it works, at least for mine, is you do a bunch of coursework. Then you have to have a, um, (smacks lips) a, like a study that you set up. You make some predictions, you make some hypotheses, and then you've gotta test them. So I would write them based on where social media was at the s- at the current time, and then it was moving so fast, Facebook would make an update and then make my predictions moot because I had- you know, I had to work in the al- like the ... They changed their algorithm, and now, like, what I wanted to do was like, well, that's not part of what their platform is anymore. And so I got really frustrated with that, which is why I left. It was like-

Chris Williamson 48:28 (laughs)

Matthew Kobach 48:28 ... a year of like writing, and rewriting, and rewriting. I'm like, "This is ... I can't do this anymore."Um, but a lot of the predictions I made was about ... were about attraction and about, like, uh, how to engage with other people. And so, d- uh, and again, I forget exactly what I said, but it was very clear that like online dating was gonna take off. It was very clear of what to ... how to position your profile to be con- ... be more attractive as, uh, opposed to less attractive. Uh, the difference is, uh, what's in a profile if you're a male attracting a female and if you're a female attracting a male. Uh, and so you ... And you kinda see all this stuff now in all the online dating, you know, all the Tinders and, uh, Bumbles and stuff of the world. So that was kinda where I was at. And then it was like, how do we then communicate with each other, uh, once we've decided, you know, this is a person that I wanna talk to? So i- it really ... The, the closest thing I can say to a prediction that came true was really that-

Chris Williamson 49:18 (laughs)

Matthew Kobach 49:18 ... we're gonna use social media in the same exact way that we, you know, communicate offline. And the reason Tinder was so effective or so popular, the reason it totally zoomed out is, one, they gamified it a little bit. They made it fun and interesting. But more importantly, it wasn't like a dating site. You know what you don't do if you're single and you go to a bar? You do not get to see what everyone's interests are. It's not like they're hovering over their head, like, "I like canoeing, and I like going outdoors, and I'm this old," or whatever. You go to a bar, and you go, "That person, I, I'm kind of attracted to that person." And you go over and you strike up a conversation, or neither it works or it doesn't work. And that's what Tinder was. The difference was instead of saying, like, "I'm attracted to that person. I'm gonna go walk up to 'em," you just swiped right. And then it w- real ... It mimicked what we do offline, and that's all social media does, is like ... If ... People complicate it. Don't. Understand how we work without social media and then just ... or without technology, period, and then layer on technology, and you'll know how we act. Like, it's really that simple. Uh, th- there's ... It's, it's like (laughs) the most attractive people in real life are gonna get the most ad- most dates. The most attractive people on Tinder are gonna get the most dates. Like, it's not ... uh, it's not some complicated, uh, formula here. Uh, and then if you're a guy, there's gonna be certain things that you're gonna have to add to your profile to be more attractive, uh, than, than if you're a woman. So, uh, i- it's super interesting to me. I think in another life, I would've been, like, an online dating consultant or coach or something.

Chris Williamson 50:44 (laughs)

Matthew Kobach 50:45 Um.

Chris Williamson 50:45 Dude, I could've seen you doing that.

Matthew Kobach 50:47 'Cause, see, but ... You, you see so many, uh, s- men especially, you see so many men that it's like, "This is your profile? No wonder you haven't met anyone." Like, why, why do you have that picture

Matthew Kobach 50:57 there? Why do you have that picture?

Chris Williamson 50:57 What are the biggest, uh ... What are the biggest errors? What are the biggest mistakes that you think guys and girls make when setting up their profiles online?

Matthew Kobach 51:03 Yeah. So, uh, what ... The biggest mistake one is set yourself up at ... Well, f- well, first off, figure out what you're looking for. So if you wanna look for a long-term relationship, uh ... And I'll just do it for, for guys. I don't wanna speak for women. But what you're gonna wanna do is make yourself look like a long-term attractive mate. And to be a long-term attractive mate, there's several different factors, like, uh, uh ... And, and y- not everyone's high on everyone. You can't be good-looking, and you can't be kind, and you can't be funny, and you can't be-

Chris Williamson 51:30 Playing guitar.

Matthew Kobach 51:31 ... "I have a lot of resources." Yeah. You, you need a little bit of all of them. So what you've got to do is figure out which one of these traits that you have, uh, are most desirable and highlight those traits. So again, this goes back to the evolutionary psychology thing. We're attracted to, one, people that are good-looking. People always say beauty is in the eye of the beholder. It's not really. There, there are some cultural differences, but every culture likes good skin, good teeth, good hair. Uh, so there's certain things to ... That's why you have, like, these Photoshop apps that are so popular, is because from an evolutionary standpoint, they make us more ... look more attractive because they make us look more healthy, because if you look more healthy, you're gonna have a higher chance of reproducing with that person who's healthy. And so you're gonna wanna make your ... uh, highlight your attractiveness as much as possible. And again, it's why, it's why ... If you're a guy, you really ... Like, the best thing you can do to be attractive is to lift weights. Like, just get fit. Like, that, that is more than half of being attractive as a guy. And again, it goes back to fitness. It goes back to evolutionary psychology. So one, so do that. So if you haven't lifted weights, lift weights. Uh, you know, get a picture where your teeth and hair and, and, uh, and skin look good. But then also ... But they ... Like, that, uh, that's not, uh ... it's not just that. So you can't just be good-looking, if you wanna be a long-term mate. You've also got to, uh, really suggest that you're gonna be invested in the long term, in the long run. And you've also got to show that you're gonna be able to, uh, access resources, get resources, provide resources. So showing things like you're kind, showing things that maybe you have like a, a bond with your family, uh, you know, that you, you're ... that you love your mother kinda stuff, you know, and that you would raise a kid who also loves their mother. Um, and again, I'm not saying to be deceiving about this stuff. I'm saying it's marketing. Highlight your best possible qualities. And you wanna be trustworthy. And, uh, and you wanna ... And being things like funny and intelligent are important because those are ways to get resources, you know. People who are clever, who work hard, who have ambition, who are smart tend to have more resources. So again, if you can crack a joke right away, you can say something clever or funny, or that ... It's the same reason why you would put Harvard on your Tinder profile, you know? It suggests that you're someone of means that's gonna have more means. Uh, so you really want to do everything to highlight your attractiveness, highlight your, uh, commitment to being a long-term partner, and your ability to, to gather resources. And this isn't to say that women need resources or need someone to do it, but again, I think we're all kinda programmed. We've all got this in our DNA that we're still attracted to that ... those kinda people even if we don't need

Matthew Kobach 54:10 it.

Chris Williamson 54:10 It's very difficult, I think, for the vast majority of women to deprogram the attraction to a man who has the ability to gather resources. Like, it is-

Matthew Kobach 54:23 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 54:24 There are ladies out there who are the breadwinners in the family. That's awesome. But the likelihood is if you are richer or d-... better educated than the man that you are married to. The man is richer or more educated than you are, and/or has some other social notoriety, incredibly talented, very muscular, very good-looking, whatever it is. Because th- that's-

Matthew Kobach 54:47 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 54:47 ... that's the way that life has worked. You are battling against-

Matthew Kobach 54:51 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 54:51 ... some deep, deep, deep-seated genetics. If you are able (laughs) to work-

Matthew Kobach 54:57 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 54:58 ... around that. I had, um, Rob Hen-

Matthew Kobach 55:00 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 55:00 ... Rob Henderson on the show a couple of-

Matthew Kobach 55:02 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 55:02 ... months ago, and he, he was a, a beast. Anyone that's interested in this sort of evolution and dating and how it rolls forward should go back and check that episode out. But he told me about the sexy son hypothesis. Do you know about this?

Matthew Kobach 55:14 Oh, it is, uh, yes, it's, it's that... Well, let's see how much I get right. I'm gonna butcher it.

Chris Williamson 55:19 Yeah, cool.

Matthew Kobach 55:19 But it's essentially that, um, women are attracted to men who they think would give them good-looking sons, because then they would be more likely to reproduce as well.

Chris Williamson 55:30 Yeah, precisely, man. You nailed it.

Matthew Kobach 55:31 Yeah, be- Yeah, yeah. Uh-huh. The, the evol- It's just, what's so funny, that's why I love evolutionary psychology so much. It's like, someone says it, and it's just, it just, it clicks. It seems so logical. And, uh, you know, if someone comes up with a better theory, believe me, I'll be the first to, to get rid of it, but, like, it, it's just... Everything just kinda stacks up so perfectly.

Chris Williamson 55:49 What are some of the things that... I'll give you one of mine, and then we'll see if you can-

Matthew Kobach 55:54 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 55:54 ... if you can give me some of yours. Some of the kind of, like, jaw-drop moments when you read-

Matthew Kobach 56:00 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 56:00 ... evolutionary psychology. One of mine recently has been, uh, learning about the purpose of pride, that it's a positive feedback mechanism for doing something which is challenging and worthwhile. And the, the sensation of pride is something that we intrinsically seek for ourselves as someone-

Matthew Kobach 56:18 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 56:18 ... who, anyone who is an entrepreneur, who goes and decides to train or do anything that makes you feel uncomfortable, you kind of seek the endorphin hit after doing something, but it's all, it was all abstract. You've kind of thought about it before, and you know how it fits into the bigger picture of you in your life. And you can kinda get lost in the weeds, away from the fact that it's like, nah, evolution's there for absolutely everything that you do, and this-

Matthew Kobach 56:46 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 56:46 ... is no different. The sensation of pride-

Matthew Kobach 56:48 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 56:49 ... to me, because it's something, uh, continuing to motivate yourself, m- most of the motivation comes from chasing that sense of pride that comes afterward. And you think, like, "Well, I'm not doing this for the hedonic treadmill. I've done my explore. I've ensured that I've got rid of the trivial few and focused on the, uh, uh, trivial many and focused on the vital few, and I'm on, uh, eh, expressing my logos." You know, you've taken the top 1% of everyone's work that's looked at this over the last few years, and you think that you understand why you're doing something. Then evolution just comes in-

Matthew Kobach 57:21 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 57:21 ... (laughs) with a big sledgehammer-

Matthew Kobach 57:22 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 57:22 ... and smashes you in the face, and goes, "Yeah, mate, but it's still just evolution." Uh, the-

Matthew Kobach 57:27 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 57:27 ... the, the thing about pride was a real sort of jaw-drop moment for me.

Matthew Kobach 57:32 Yeah. Well, and also too, uh, and I'll answer your question, but pride with social media, it's so, i- it's so clear. So it's like if you're someone who's chasing, uh, that social status, that, to feel good about yourself, think about how social media then plays into our evolutionary predilections. Is that the right word? Predilections? Whatever. The way that we're already designed. Uh, so I'm chasing this high of, like, approval from other people, and I'm chasing, like, yeah, I'm working out, I'm getting fit, and I'm doing all this. And then I'm able to post a shirtless picture of me on Instagram that then gets 1,000 likes. And you can see how it's like, this is all just a big reward, uh, of us doing this thing, seeking social status, seeking pride. And, uh, like, that's why social media has totally, and I don't mean this in a, in a, uh, tre- uh, in, like, a bad way, but you can see that social media has, like, hijacked that, or, like, used it to their advantage. Like, we, uh, and I do it too. Like, I-

Chris Williamson 58:26 Everyone's part of the game now.

Matthew Kobach 58:26 ... you wanna argue on status-seeking? Yeah. I, there is absolutely a part of me that likes having, uh, you know, however many followers on Twitter. There's a part that likes me getting 1,000 retweets. I can say, until the cows come home, I do it for myself. I do it to keep myself honest. I do it to, to make sure that I'm increasing my habits, which, sure, that's true, and I could probably, probably pass a lie detector. But again, it's that identity thing, and I've gotta get out of my own head and get at who I am. And it's like, you also like the fact that you've got higher status now because you do it than if you didn't do it.

Chris Williamson 58:58 It's always a dead end, man.

Matthew Kobach 58:59 Uh, to answer your question though, to answer your question, the one, and we talked about it already, it's, it's this gene thing. It's that we're not even in control of the ship. We're not the skipper. We're, we are cargo.

Chris Williamson 59:12 (laughs)

Matthew Kobach 59:12 Like, this what... Your, your brain, all of it, you, if you've got a gene that wants to get passed on, it is gonna do whatever it takes to get passed on. 'Cause we think, "Oh, evolution, I get it." Like, "So I wanna reproduce. I wanna make another version of me." And you're like, "No, no, no." It's even-

Chris Williamson 59:27 Mm-hmm.

Matthew Kobach 59:27 ... it's deeper than that. It's like you've got this one little weird gene that wants to make another version of itself. And depending on how strong that gene is compared to another gene, like, that, that's the stuff that's really wild to wrap your head around. And, and that's what makes you feel like, "I'm not in control here. I'm not... I'm..." You know, and like, uh, like, i- it's like, uh, I- it's like you go on a ship, and, uh, there's, like, a little, like, a steering wheel for the kids to do. Like, th- that's what life feels like. It's like, "Oh, totally, yeah." I'm like, or when I was a kid, I have a little sister, and she'd wanna play video games with me, and I didn't want her to play. So I'd give her a controller and tell her she was playing.

Chris Williamson 1:00:04 (laughs) That wasn't real.

Matthew Kobach 1:00:04 Like, that's, that's what we are.

Chris Williamson 1:00:05 There's no batteries in that controller. There's just batteries in the one-

Matthew Kobach 1:00:09 Yeah, there's nothing.

Chris Williamson 1:00:10 ... that I've got.

Matthew Kobach 1:00:10 And you, and you think you're controlling it, and you're just as happy knowing it, but you're not controlling anything. (laughs)

Chris Williamson 1:00:16 Have you read Buddhism is True by Robert Wright? Uh, Why Buddhism-

Matthew Kobach 1:00:19 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:00:19 ... is True?

Matthew Kobach 1:00:20 Uh-uh.

Chris Williamson 1:00:20 Dude, you would adore it. So imagine-

Matthew Kobach 1:00:22 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:00:23 ... imagine the moral animal, and then a- adapt the evolutionary psychology to why meditation works and why Eastern philosophy has some truths to it. Um, highly recommend it-

Matthew Kobach 1:00:33 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:00:33 ... to anyone who's listening, if you, if you fancy getting into this. Uh, the audible version also is really, is quite easy listening. I probably wouldn't have wanted-

Matthew Kobach 1:00:40 Okay.

Chris Williamson 1:00:40 ... to audible...... The Moral Animal. I don't think I would have enjoyed it as much. I liked rereading those mic drop moments. But-

Matthew Kobach 1:00:47 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:00:47 ... uh, for Why Buddhism is True, that's good. Have you had a look at much to do with self-deception?

Matthew Kobach 1:00:53 Uh, not, not really.

Chris Williamson 1:00:56 So-

Matthew Kobach 1:00:56 Where, where are you going?

Chris Williamson 1:00:57 Just-

Matthew Kobach 1:00:57 You got something on your mind?

Chris Williamson 1:00:58 (laughs) Yeah, yeah, man, that mustache. Um, no.

Matthew Kobach 1:01:01 Uh-huh. (laughs)

Chris Williamson 1:01:02 I, I've just been blown away with how convincing liars we are, even to ourselves.

Matthew Kobach 1:01:10 Mm, yeah, yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:01:11 Like-

Matthew Kobach 1:01:11 That, that-

Chris Williamson 1:01:12 ... uh, I mean this in the most pernicious, like source code level of a way, and this is one-

Matthew Kobach 1:01:21 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:01:21 ... this is one that really, really shocked me. Um, so couples that have been together for a significant period of time, living together, let's say maybe sort of six, seven, eight years, who still haven't had kids will tend to break up.

Matthew Kobach 1:01:43 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:01:43 And there's some-

Matthew Kobach 1:01:44 Hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:01:44 ... moderately robust stats that show this. That's presuming that they want to have kids. Now, when you think-

Matthew Kobach 1:01:52 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:01:52 ... why does this happen? You know, everyone that's listening will have had some friends, perhaps you were one of them, um, that was in a relationship for a real long time, you know, got together at university. Now we're sort of 29 and, "We've just grown apart. I don't really feel the same about them anymore. Our interests don't really align," and this, that, and the other. And you think not only is that perhaps what you told the other person, but it's genuinely what you felt, or even maybe you felt some version, some analog of that.

Matthew Kobach 1:02:19 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:02:19 So you were convinced. You, yourself-

Matthew Kobach 1:02:22 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:02:22 ... were convinced-

Matthew Kobach 1:02:23 You could pass a lie detector.

Chris Williamson 1:02:24 ... that was the reason that you did it. That's what you told them. That's what you told you. That's what your brain told you. However-

Matthew Kobach 1:02:30 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:02:30 ... there is some pretty good evidence which shows that if you've been together for a very, very long time, let's look back to our, our ancestral environment. If you and another person have been together for quite a while and there's still not been any kids, there's something wrong with one of you. That means it's beneficial-

Matthew Kobach 1:02:49 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:02:49 ... for both of you to go and be with someone else. That problem might be you, but that problem might be them. And by leaving and going to see if the other person also has this problem, or perhaps if you've taken it along with them, this is again presuming that most people were trying to have children. The difference now is that people elect not to have children, but the genes don't know and don't care about that.

Matthew Kobach 1:03:11 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:03:11 The genes don't care about the fact that you're on the pill and have been, and you're, you just want to wait until you're 31, and then you're going to have, you're gonna start to become a, a, a baby-making mum. Like, that's-

Matthew Kobach 1:03:21 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:03:22 They don't care about that. So it would make sense for your genes to say, "Something's up here. That person and you aren't a compatible match because as of yet there's been no children." But it wouldn't say to you... That, that's not the best, most effective way. What would happen is that you would become more easily irritated about the things that they did, the fact that they chew with their mouth open perhaps isn't cute like they used to anymore, the fact that they make little snoring noises in the night isn't as endearing, maybe they're just not as attractive anymore.

Matthew Kobach 1:03:56 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:03:56 All of these different sort of the parameters and the dials and the knobs that your genes can twist to change things.

Matthew Kobach 1:04:03 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:04:04 And then it tells you, "Oh, well, you know, we're just kind of growing apart and we're doing this, that, and the other," and then that's how it deploys. So not only are you convinced of that, but your genes have lied, made you lie to yourself about what's going on.

Matthew Kobach 1:04:17 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:04:17 And like, upon reading that and then 100 other examples of how you don't really know your own motivations at its deepest, deepest level, you realize cargo in the ship is exactly that. The child that's just got the toy wheel and thinks that they know what's going on-

Matthew Kobach 1:04:37 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:04:37 And you can go layers and layers and layers deep, right? There's an, there's a level of layers that you could go back to consciously, which you need to strip away. You discussed about stripping away ego and, um, becoming fully aware of why you feel the way that you do and controlling that. But then there's like another glass ceiling to kind of try and get through. And up there, that's where the real, that's where the real fat controller is. And he's up there with-

Matthew Kobach 1:05:01 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:05:01 ... your genetics twisting the knobs and moving the dials. Blows my mind, man.

Matthew Kobach 1:05:06 A- absolutely. And it, it's why you, it's so easy to see someone else's motives, and then they tell you their motives, and that's completely different than what you observed as an outsider. But you know for a fact that they could pass a lie detector. It's like, I know you believe this lie because, uh, it's beneficial for you to believe this lie, and it's, and to you, it's not a lie. It's the truth. And it goes back to this idea too that like we're all, that we're all just, again, cargo. But imagine being cargo, that then when we arrive at our destination, we have to justify-

Chris Williamson 1:05:36 (laughs)

Matthew Kobach 1:05:36 ... how we got there, why we got there. So, so you get there and you're like, "So you ended up in, you know, in Brazil." And you're like, "Yeah, that's where I wanted to go the entire time. I was always going to Brazil. I love Brazil. Rio's beautiful this time of year and I love beaches." And you're like, and, but, and, and again, it's, it's you have to believe it. Uh, so yeah, it's, and again, it goes back to that genes thing. We got our genes doing things that we are then have to explain away.

Chris Williamson 1:06:03 (laughs) Yeah.

Matthew Kobach 1:06:03 And, and again, it's why it goes back to this ego thing, and it's so unbelievably hard. It's, uh, like I barely understand it, that like it's a thing, let alone can like do anything about it. But, uh, you know, and, and it's so hard to see in yourself. It's next to impossible. Uh, but it, it's just, like again, we're evolutionarily designed to, to decept ourselves. You know, it's a, uh, I forget. It's a saying something like this. Like, the, uh, the way to tell a lie is to believe it. And so, uh, and if you know it's a lie, you're, you're not gonna believe it. But if you honestly don't know it's a lie, then you're gonna be just fine saying that, "No. We grew apart. That's why we got divorced."

Chris Williamson 1:06:42 That's, that's what's going on. Well, I mean, one of the things that came up, I think it's Moral Animal or Why Buddhism is True, uh, this just sounds like Robert Wright somewhere is going to be sat at home with his fucking ears burning because me and you are just like mouthing off-

Matthew Kobach 1:06:55 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 1:06:55 ... about him for this entire podcast. Um-

Matthew Kobach 1:06:57 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:06:58 Uh, it was in one of those where he spoke about the fact that our ability to detect lies as humans is really ... Uh, uh, and deceit, deception is super high, super, super high, because the risk previously would always have been pretty vast. It's one of the reasons why we're the only primates who have white around the outside of our eyes, so that we can see where each other's looking. If you had dark eyes, it would be more difficult to see where you're looking.

Matthew Kobach 1:07:27 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:07:27 But you've got white around the eyes, which means you can see. Eye contact tends to be an indicator of truthfulness. Um, and, uh, he was