Evolution, Meaning & Managing The NYSE's Social Media | Matthew Kobach | Modern Wisdom Podcast 216

1. 0:00 – 1:40

   Intro

   1. MKMatthew Kobach0:00

      If you're someone who's chasing, uh, that social status, that, to feel good about yourself, think about how social media then plays into our evolutionary predilections. So I'm chasing this high of, like, approval from other people and I'm chasing, like, yeah, I'm working out, I'm getting fit and I'm doing all this. And then I'm able to post a shirtless picture of me on Instagram, that then it gets 1,000 likes. And you can see how it's, like, this is all just a big reward, seeking social status, seeking pride. Like, that's why social media has totally ... And I don't mean this in a, in, like, a bad way, but you can see that social media has hijacked that, or, like, used it to their advantage.

   2. CWChris Williamson0:37

      I'm joined by Matthew Kovach. Matthew, welcome to the show.

   3. MKMatthew Kobach0:41

      Thank you. Super excited to be here.

   4. CWChris Williamson0:43

      Pleasure to have you on, man. That facial hair is absolutely crushing it. It's making me wistful for my old mustache, which is now gone.

   5. MKMatthew Kobach0:49

      (laughs) If, uh, if people are listening to this, I do have a mustache. It's been four months since I've had to see anybody.

   6. CWChris Williamson0:56

      (laughs)

   7. MKMatthew Kobach0:56

      So I decided in that four months to grow a mustache 'cause ... really to see if I could. Like, that wa- ... it's a challenge to myself, and it turns out I can.

   8. CWChris Williamson1:04

      Every guy that I know who's had latent mus- mustache desire for the last few years of their life-

   9. MKMatthew Kobach1:11

      Mm-hmm.

   10. CWChris Williamson1:11

       ... has been like, "Yes! This is the opportunity I've been looking for. A global pandemic when I don't have to see anyone."

   11. MKMatthew Kobach1:16

       Yeah.

   12. CWChris Williamson1:16

       "Let's grow some ridiculous facial hair."

   13. MKMatthew Kobach1:19

       It's ... The pandemic has been bad for a lot of people, but great for mustaches.

   14. CWChris Williamson1:23

       (laughs) I think the stock price of mustaches-

   15. MKMatthew Kobach1:25

       (laughs) Mustaches.

   16. CWChris Williamson1:26

       Anyone that has long mustaches at the, in February time, what a return.

   17. MKMatthew Kobach1:33

       They've seen, they've, they've seen hacker returns, that's for sure.

   18. CWChris Williamson1:37

       For sure, man. So, um, talk us through, give us a bit of background

2. 1:40 – 3:00

   Matthews background

   1. CWChris Williamson1:40

      to you. What do you do? What have you ... wha- what do you, what do you do?

   2. MKMatthew Kobach1:43

      Yeah. So if anyone happens to know who I am, it's solely because of Twitter. So, uh, over the past, maybe 14, 15, 16 months, I've built up a bit of a persona on Twitter just by regularly tweeting, just by putting out stuff, uh, really every day. I, I make it a, a goal myself to do it once a day. Social media rewards consistency, so literally however long ago it was, I made a pact with myself that I was gonna take everything I knew about social media and apply it to my own personal profile and just see what happens. And it just, it caught fire, to be honest. You know, it's a little bit of luck, little bit of, um, knowing what I'm doing. And over the past 16 months, it's gone from, like, 1,000 to, you know, 65,000, whatever it might be. And, uh, and it was because I, I, I work professionally in social media, so I've been doing this for over 10 years, and I know what kinda works. I at least know what works for brands and I kinda decided, why don't I take that same concept, apply it to my own personal profile, and not do it in a way that's deceiving or that I'm not being true to what I think or w- or who I am. But just, like, let's write tweets in a way that I know works. Let's talk about things that I know people are interested in. And it, and it took off. It, it ... you know, here we are. Now I'm on your podcast 'cause I'm -

   3. CWChris Williamson2:59

      (laughs) Damn right.

   4. MKMatthew Kobach2:59

      -- meant

3. 3:00 – 4:45

   Social media principles

   1. MKMatthew Kobach3:00

      to be on it.

   2. CWChris Williamson3:00

      Yeah. Exa- exactly. So i- I find it really interesting, I've got a number of buddies that work in the social media world, and there does seem to be two very distinct types, especially as you get higher up. There's one type that, uh, Steve Bartlett from, uh, a company Social Chain in the UK, which my buddy works at-

   3. MKMatthew Kobach3:18

      Yep.

   4. CWChris Williamson3:18

      ... um, who, exactly as you said, takes the principles, applies them to his own. Then there's his business partner, Don McGregor, also a good buddy of mine, past Modern Wisdom guest twice, who doesn't give a fuck about social media.

   5. MKMatthew Kobach3:31

      (laughs)

   6. CWChris Williamson3:31

      He's like, "That's work. This is home. I'm, I'm gonna draw a line in the sand."

   7. MKMatthew Kobach3:36

      Yeah.

   8. CWChris Williamson3:36

      Uh, so it's, it's interesting to see what happened. So what were, what were the principles? You said that you were consistent, um, targeted-

   9. MKMatthew Kobach3:42

      Yeah.

   10. CWChris Williamson3:42

       ... uh, messages. What else did you do?

   11. MKMatthew Kobach3:45

       Mm-hmm. So one, one key thing, uh, that I think a lot of people leave out is that they're not focused enough on social media. So, you know, like, we're all complicated, interesting people that have ... You know, I might like to go kayaking, and then I might like to, uh, think about philosophy, and then I might like to pet my dog, and you wanna share all those things in your social media. The problem is when you're on social media, you're more like a TV channel, you know? You're more like ESPN where you've gotta kinda stick to one programming if you want people to follow you. So you really have to narrow in what it is that you talk about. So even using you for an example, you've already, you've got ... it's the same idea with your podcast. If all of a sudden you started ... had a, a guest on tomorrow that wanted to talk about cricket, people are gonna be like, "Well, why, why is this episode on Modern Wisdom?" Um, so really, you just use that same concept and apply it to social media and you apply it to your personal brand, and that's how you start, uh, getting a following and getting people interested in what you have to say and building a community. I mean, you absolutely have a community around your podcast, and social media works the same way.

4. 4:45 – 8:00

   Matthews tweets

   1. MKMatthew Kobach4:45

   2. CWChris Williamson4:45

      What were you talking about, then? What have you been tweeting about for the last 18 months?

   3. MKMatthew Kobach4:49

      Yeah. So a lot of it was about social media. Um, just kinda ... and about content in general. About the stuff that works and the stuff that doesn't work. Social media was interesting because it came up w- you know, what, 2004, I guess, is when Facebook started. And when it first kinda got big, when it was clear that brands were gonna be using it, there was, like, a land grab by, by people that were just kinda throwing out, like, "Do this to grow your following and do this to get engagement." And that kind of worked in social media 1.0, but now we're to a point where that stuff doesn't work anymore. Either the algorithm changed or they have ... uh, you know, there's new platforms that you just can't game the system that way. And so I just started tweeting matter-of-factly, which, again, works. Be, be direct, be concise about stuff that works and stuff that doesn't work. And I think people found it somewhat refreshing. You know, it wasn't ... I- if you follow social media stuff on, on social media, you get a lot of, like, "Just be authentic," or, you know, "Social media's meant to be social." It's been repeated so many times, it just doesn't mean anything. Like, that's not helpful to someone who's trying to get better at it. So I would literally do things like if you're on Instagram, you're gonna post a photo that's this size. If you're on Twitter, you've gotta, you know, tweet every day or you've gotta be consistent or you gotta narrow in your focus. And it was the stuff that these people kinda ... that work in the industry knew to be true.You know, it's like they felt it, and that's what key to getting retweets. It's this thing that, like, you kinda feel in yourself that, that you just haven't articulated yourself. And then when you see someone else articulate it, they've now spoken for you and they're likely to retweet it. And so that's as- as simple as it was. If you can tap into what someone else is thinking and do their ... you know, put it on paper, like, that's how you, y- you get people that are like, "I like the way this person thinks because they think like I think." And, and that's really what I did. And, uh, and then on top of it, I just happened to be interested ... This is actually how I found your podcast. I happen to be interested in philosophy and happiness and, you know, making my life as enjoyable as possible. And, uh, I feel like you probably ... there'll be some overlap with, with your interests as well. Uh, y- you look for, like, this really, really old advice that has stood the test of time. Like, I don't want someone's advice from five years ago.

   4. CWChris Williamson6:59

      (laughs)

   5. MKMatthew Kobach6:59

      I want someone's advice from 2,000 years ago that's still relevant today. And so I just started taking that. I mean, like, stoicism kind of stuff, like, you can apply it to social media. A- and so that's all I would do. I would take this, like, philosophical lens, just took it and look at content. And so many of my tweets, I swear to God, if you take out the word social media in the tweet and replace it with life-

   6. CWChris Williamson7:21

      (laughs)

   7. MKMatthew Kobach7:21

      ... I've just plagiarized it from someone who wrote it 2,000 years ago. But it- it just resonates. People under- it's these- these beautiful concepts that people get. And you can literally do it with anything. You can take out social media, put it in motorcycle repair, put it in canoeing, put it in friendship. Uh, it's like the ... Like, the ... A lot of the big problems we've had in life, people have been thinking about for a lot- lot of years. So use their wisdom and apply it to- to the problems we're facing today.

   8. CWChris Williamson7:47

      I wonder if Seneca knew 2,000 years ago-

   9. MKMatthew Kobach7:49

      (laughs)

   10. CWChris Williamson7:50

       ... that he would be providing you with content. (laughs)

   11. MKMatthew Kobach7:53

       Yeah.

   12. CWChris Williamson7:54

       In a co- in a couple of millennia, there's ... some guy-

   13. MKMatthew Kobach7:56

       Yeah.

   14. CWChris Williamson7:56

       ... is gonna remove some of the words from this, put social media in, and get 1,000

5. 8:00 – 9:00

   Why Matthew loves Twitter

   1. CWChris Williamson8:00

      retweets.

   2. MKMatthew Kobach8:01

      Uh. (laughs) I- I would love to thank him if I had the chance. There's no way he ever could conceive of that. But, like, if you really think about Twitter too, it's no different than that kind of philosophy. Uh, uh, like, that's why I love Twitter so much, is, uh, there are these ways to spout out wisdom, to, uh, to be pithy, to- to kinda say these things that, like ... Uh, the reason I like pithy sayings and- and the reason I like Twitter is because there's a way that you can say certain things and it just hits you. You know? Uh, and- and it's different than a long form conversation like this, which is equally as valuable. Not saying it isn't. But there's ways that you can say certain things that it just hits someone right in the soul or right in the heart. And, uh, you know, if only for a second, you can kinda change their thinking or it kinda shakes them out of their day-to-day stuff. And- and I think that's what a lot of ancient wisdom does. And so I'm just kinda taking it. Sometimes I don't even get rid of the word life, I just keep it in.

   3. CWChris Williamson8:53

      (laughs)

   4. MKMatthew Kobach8:53

      Uh, and other times I apply it to social media.

   5. CWChris Williamson8:55

      Yeah. Y- you're very, very correct about what you say, that, um,

6. 9:00 – 10:35

   Small aphorisms can make a big impact

   1. CWChris Williamson9:00

      small aphorisms can really make a big impact, because a large concept ends up being distilled down to probably one sentence description. And perfect example of that, I know that we're both fans of The Moral Animal by Robert Wright, and I was reading it this morning, and there was a sentence that stuck out to me, um, right in the middle of the book. It's, like, 60% of the way through. And it's the sentence which, to me, describes what most of the book is about. And it says, gen- uh, "Our genes did not design us to be happy, they designed us to be effective." And I'm like, "That's just some throwaway line in the middle of this huge, like, multi-hundred page book."

   2. MKMatthew Kobach9:41

      Mm-hmm.

   3. CWChris Williamson9:42

      But I remember the sentence, and the sentence is a distillation of the concept of the book.

   4. MKMatthew Kobach9:49

      Yeah. A- a- and that's honestly how I go about tweeting, is I read books like that, I read stuff just 'cause that happens to be my hobby, it works out, and you get beautiful lines like that. You get ... Or you're just able to think about it and- and- and summarize it yourself. And that's what kinda goes through. Like, you see the ... You read lines like that and it hits you so hard that, like ... Uh, a- and I could go off on- on that for a while. Like, I love evolutionary psychology. I'm- I'm a full, you know ... If you wanna call it a cult, I'm in the evolutionary psychology cult. I've been- I've been ... Uh, I did a dissertation, started writing it, and that was my theoretical framework, was evolutionary psychology. And, uh ... And I- I've- I've sidetracked myself now 'cause you're talking about something I think out of the book.

   5. CWChris Williamson10:29

      Let's go down it. Let's go down ... Let's- let's tumble down that.

   6. MKMatthew Kobach10:31

      Let's- let's do it.

   7. CWChris Williamson10:32

      Let's do it, man. Oh, I tell you what, before we go into that, who

7. 10:35 – 12:00

   Who is the best aphorist

   1. CWChris Williamson10:35

      do you think-

   2. MKMatthew Kobach10:35

      Yeah.

   3. CWChris Williamson10:35

      ... is the best aphorist on the planet, in your opinion?

   4. MKMatthew Kobach10:39

      Oh, man. Yeah, proba- probably Naval.

   5. CWChris Williamson10:42

      Oh, man. I know. I know. I don't- I don't-

   6. MKMatthew Kobach10:44

      It's too classic and- and-

   7. CWChris Williamson10:45

      I don't wanna give the obvious answer, but he's-

   8. MKMatthew Kobach10:48

      All right. How about this? How about ... There is ... I'll g- I'll give one that maybe some people don't know. There is someone called orange_book on Twitter.

   9. CWChris Williamson10:54

      Okay.

   10. MKMatthew Kobach10:55

       So it's orange_book, I think underscore. So one word, orange_book. Uh, brilliant, lot of ... lot of that same stuff, lot about just how to live a better life, um, how to be happier, and just writes it in a way ... Like, the ... What I think a lot of people miss about Twitter, or don't understand about Twitter, is you can have these ideas but you also then have to get them on paper. You have to write them in a way that's easy to read. And, uh, this person is anonymous, or- or pseudonymous, and so I don't know who he is or she is. But, uh, the way that they write, the way that they think is just super clear, super concise, and it's ... i- it's one of those people that adds so much value to your timeline if you're a regular Twitter user.

   11. CWChris Williamson11:31

       I know. That's why Naval, as a guy who doesn't follow anyone and just tweets, like, single words sometimes or, like, couple of word sentences, has, like, nearly ... amassed, like, n- nearly a million followers now. And you're right-

   12. MKMatthew Kobach11:44

       Yeah.

   13. CWChris Williamson11:44

       ... as much as I don't want it to be the obvious answer, it is for a reason. Know that there's a reason that Floyd Mayweather was the best boxer on the planet for a while. You don't wanna say that he is the best defensive boxer of all time, but he was. And Naval-

   14. MKMatthew Kobach11:56

       Right.

   15. CWChris Williamson11:57

       Naval's the Floyd Mayweather of aphorisms, man, with a

8. 12:00 – 14:00

   The moral animal

   1. CWChris Williamson12:00

      little bit more humbleness.

   2. MKMatthew Kobach12:01

      He- he is.And I (laughs) would say a healthy more dose of humbleness if we're comparing him to Floyd Mayweather. Uh, but, like, and even Naval aside, like, you can see the reason someone like him is so popular. And you can, people can mimic this, and it's, it's certainly just a style of writing, but it, it's the fact that there's this sense that so much wisdom is packed into just such a tight, concise, uh, package that that's what makes it so interesting and makes it, uh, so relatable and, and so easy to understand. It's almost like a ... You know the, like, a picture's worth a thousand words? You can have tweets that are 10 words, but they feel like a thousand words, and that's how he tweets, and that's how some of these, uh, people that are so popular, like, they tweet the same way. And, and it's that same idea of the, of the moral animal, s- uh, summarization you gave. In one sentence, you understand how we're designed. We're not designed to be happy. We're not even necessarily designed to, to reproduce. We're designed to reproduce specific genes.

   3. CWChris Williamson12:56

      (laughs)

   4. MKMatthew Kobach12:56

      So you got a gene that doesn't care if it's, like, uh, if it's doing something good or bad. It's just like d- will this gene multiply next time? Like, will it be around? And, like, that's all it really boils down t- to. And, uh, and, and I'll go down this rabbit hole just for a second. That's why I, I love thinking about evolutionary psychology is once you know how we're programmed, you can think, how do we, how do we communicate? How do we relate to people? How do I ... If I'm a brand, how do I sell stuff? How do I get people excited? How do I kinda make a cult following out of this brand that I'm representing? Uh, and whether or it's yourself, uh, there's just so many, uh, things to understand about human nature that you can then look at and apply it to any part of your life. And I just happen to be in marketing, happen to be in social media, but you could use it in sales. You could use it in presentations. You could use it in podcasts. Like, uh, it's just, it applies to literally everything. That's why I think it's just such a beautiful theory to, to just have in the back of your head and have dancing around there at all times.

   5. CWChris Williamson13:50

      Yeah, relationships, family life, uh-

   6. MKMatthew Kobach13:53

      Mm-hmm.

   7. CWChris Williamson13:53

      ... friendships, everything. Um, uh, I th- I genuinely believe that

9. 14:00 – 16:20

   The ultimate red pill

   1. CWChris Williamson14:00

      evolutionary psychology is the ultimate red pill.

   2. MKMatthew Kobach14:03

      Mm-hmm.

   3. CWChris Williamson14:04

      It stops you from seeing matrix and starts you seeing code. But it does it in a way that means that, I don't know whether you found this, when I started reading it, I started slowing down a lot. I became less effective in the real world because I was-

   4. MKMatthew Kobach14:16

      (laughs)

   5. CWChris Williamson14:17

      ... triple, quadruple checking everything that ... I'm like, "Oh, so why do you think that?" What does it say about me that I'm asking myself, "Why did you say that?" What does it say about me that I'm asking, "What did you ... What does it say about me?" And you just end up this, like, constant regression all the way back.

   6. MKMatthew Kobach14:33

      Oh.

   7. CWChris Williamson14:33

      You know what I mean?

   8. MKMatthew Kobach14:34

      Oh, a- absolutely. That's what one th- one concept I've been kinda playing with, and I'm real bad at it, and it's super, li- it's super, like, down the rabbit hole kinda thing, but it's a sense of, like, identity. Like, who are you? What do you think? And if you can lose your own sense of identity, if you can just say, like, "I'm just w- another person in this big blue planet," whatever, uh, it's easier to understand your own thinking. So, like, when you, like, you going down, like, "Why did I say that?" "Well, he responded to this, and I said that and that and that." And you realize, like, that's kinda how you're hardwired. But we have such an ego. You wanna defend everything you said. You wanna defend everything you think. But as soon as you ... if you can just take a step back and think, "You know what? This, uh, this is just some person doing something. Let me try to disassociate with what that person did," even though it's yourself. And that's how you can better understand all this stuff and, and hopefully make better decisions. Now, it's next to impossible. It's really hard, and I'm not good at it by any means. I'm ... You know, I, I've got an ego. I've got ... I take things personally all the time. But the best thing you can do, like, if you're ever in an argument and you can just, like, take a step back and think like, "These are just two people who are, aren't communicating properly," you can then all of a sudden be a lot more logical and see the other person's point of view so much quicker than if you go, "That person hurt my feelings, and they did something wrong."

   9. CWChris Williamson15:45

      (laughs)

   10. MKMatthew Kobach15:45

       "And now I'm mad and I'm upset about it." But again, we're, we're animals that are designed (laughs) to have emotional reactions. So it takes a lot of practice to, to do that. It takes a lot of practice to see, uh, like how we're programmed. It takes a lot of practice to see that, like, I'm reacting like this because at some point, it benefited my ancestors to react like this.

   11. CWChris Williamson16:03

       (laughs)

   12. MKMatthew Kobach16:03

       And I've got to be a smarter person. I, you know, like, I've got, we've got the, uh, frontal lobe capacity to realize that just 'cause we're programmed this way doesn't mean we have to act this way. It means we're likely to act this way. It means that we wanna act this way, but it doesn't mean that we have to act this way.

   13. CWChris Williamson16:16

       It's all well and good saying, "This is

10. 16:20 – 19:35

    Emotions are sensations

    1. CWChris Williamson16:20

       my gene expressing itself through feelings," but when you get sadness, happiness, anger, any emotion, it feels ... It, it, it's not as logical as that, right? It is a sensation.

    2. MKMatthew Kobach16:33

       Yeah.

    3. CWChris Williamson16:33

       It is the expression of that gene giving you a sensation in yourself that causes you to act in a particular way. If you haven't been around-

    4. MKMatthew Kobach16:42

       Yeah.

    5. CWChris Williamson16:42

       ... people for a while and you start to get lonely, that yearning for people is to get yourself back to the tribe. But it just feels-

    6. MKMatthew Kobach16:50

       Mm-hmm.

    7. CWChris Williamson16:50

       ... like loneliness. It feels like some-

    8. MKMatthew Kobach16:52

       Yep.

    9. CWChris Williamson16:53

       ... curse bestowed from the gods, or on the positive side, some sort of blessing that's been handed to you. You know?

    10. MKMatthew Kobach16:58

        Mm-hmm.

    11. CWChris Williamson16:59

        That feeling after you complete a workout. You don't think, "Oh, that was me expanding my domain of competence."

    12. MKMatthew Kobach17:04

        (laughs)

    13. CWChris Williamson17:04

        And it ... You know? Like, it's not, that's not what you think.

    14. MKMatthew Kobach17:07

        No.

    15. CWChris Williamson17:08

        But that is what's happening. And learning that-

    16. MKMatthew Kobach17:10

        Mm-hmm.

    17. CWChris Williamson17:11

        ... slowly as Robert Wright continues to ph- deep throat me with this evolutionary psychology red pill ... Um-

    18. MKMatthew Kobach17:18

        (laughs) Th- that's a hell of a metaphor there, (laughs) ooh.

    19. CWChris Williamson17:21

        It is one-

    20. MKMatthew Kobach17:21

        We don't have, we don't have these i- in the States. (laughs)

    21. CWChris Williamson17:23

        Hey, look, you get a little bit colorful language. It is our language. We'll Anglicize what we want. We'll spell everything with an S. We'll add U's into, like, every word that we can.

    22. MKMatthew Kobach17:32

        Uh-huh.

    23. CWChris Williamson17:33

        Uh, and we'll talk about Robert Wright deep throating-

    24. MKMatthew Kobach17:37

        Yeah.

    25. CWChris Williamson17:37

        ... a red pill, yeah?

    26. MKMatthew Kobach17:38

        Uh-huh. (laughs) Um, I, I, I just love this. One, one thing too is it's, it is so hard to be in the throes of it, to be feeling something emotional, and to take that step back. And what really helps me is I'm very lucky. I have a fiance, and we're really good at kinda holding each other accountable when something like that happens. And it literally happened today. I moved out in New York. I had to ship a bunch of packages. And for no reason, the mail just returned them back to a place that we don't live anymore.And I got super frustrated, got a little stressed out, like, "How are we gonna get this?" And, um, you know, like, that's your, you know, that's your body, like, in f- fight or flight. But there's literally nothing I can do about it right now. So, you know, she's like, "Relax," like, "take a breath." Like, there's noth- like, we can't solve this right now. We're gonna have to figure out a solution. Like, we'll, uh, get a friend to come over and do it, but, like, literally stressing about it right now does you no good. It's just going to make you more unhappy. Um, and I was getting ready for this. She's all, like, uh, uh, she didn't say this, but this is what I internalized. It's like, do I really want to be stressed out for this podcast that I'm excited to go on, for this person that I'm eager to talk to? And you can see so many issues in people's lives where they kind of let these little stressful things build up, and then you come out and explode or that you're not your best possible version of yourself when you're having a conversation like this, and you're not expressing what you actually think, and you're not having a, a rational train of thought or a rational mind. So it's so important to be able to do that and then to surround yourself with people who think the same way, and that's really what I'm trying to do going forward, is who, who, who thinks the same way that I do, who can reel me in?

    27. CWChris Williamson19:10

        Yeah.

    28. MKMatthew Kobach19:10

        'Cause I'm not perfect at it, by any means. Um, and then who are the people that don't do that, that don't control their emotions, that do go and stress about things and bring you down? Um, you know, take a step away from those people and take a step closer to the people that, that understand this and want to get better at it.

    29. CWChris Williamson19:25

        You, the external accountability is such, such an assistance, man. Like, it's such an unfair advantage. I've been thinking about this a lot. I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on this. So this is very trite

11. 19:35 – 21:15

    Going fast vs going slow

    1. CWChris Williamson19:35

       to say. If you want to go fast, go alone. If you want to go far, go together. I'm aware that that's, like-

    2. MKMatthew Kobach19:41

       Mm-hmm.

    3. CWChris Williamson19:41

       ... off the back of a bumper sticker somewhere. Um, but ... (laughs)

    4. MKMatthew Kobach19:44

       Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's the perfect tweet.

    5. CWChris Williamson19:45

       Um-

    6. MKMatthew Kobach19:45

       It's a perfect tweet.

    7. CWChris Williamson19:46

       Hey, look, 1,000 retweets. Um, but-

    8. MKMatthew Kobach19:50

       Uh-

    9. CWChris Williamson19:50

       I've been thinking about that an awful, awful lot, about where the optimal line is for solitude versus relying on others. Um, and as someone who's 32 and still single, it's interesting for me to see the pace at which my buddies are, are, are moving, and I think that there's been ... I've had a disproportionate advantage up to now, but I'm now starting to see that situations that perhaps might be diffused by a partner or by, um, like, uh, having a family, having dog, having kids, whatever it might be, that distraction is actually now the tables are starting to turn. Does that make sense? Like-

    10. MKMatthew Kobach20:29

        Yeah.

    11. CWChris Williamson20:29

        They're ... Literally-

    12. MKMatthew Kobach20:30

        Absolutely.

    13. CWChris Williamson20:30

        ... I'm watching that go fast in the beginning, like tortoise versus hare situation play out in front of my eyes.

    14. MKMatthew Kobach20:37

        Mm-hmm. It, it's funny. I think this goes back to a concept. You've talked to ... You've had Roy Southerland on, right?

    15. CWChris Williamson20:43

        I did.

    16. MKMatthew Kobach20:44

        And one, one of his things is, like, the op- opposite of a good idea is sometimes another good idea, you know? And it's that same kinda concept. It's like the opposite of going fast can also ... Like, the opposite of, like, having success by going fast can also be having success by going slow.

    17. CWChris Williamson20:57

        (laughs)

    18. MKMatthew Kobach20:57

        And I think some of these, it's, it's like, it depends on what stage you are in your life. It depends what you want to accomplish. And so I can certainly see a scenario where you're alone, and you're able to spend time, and you'll be able to, like, kinda get your head right that you can't do with someone else.

    19. CWChris Williamson21:09

        But you just mentioned before we got-

    20. MKMatthew Kobach21:11

        Um, and I w-

    21. CWChris Williamson21:11

        You, you mentioned before we got started that the mustache is going because you've got to go to a wedding.

12. 21:15 – 23:15

    The mustache is going

    1. CWChris Williamson21:15

       Like, there's 50%-

    2. MKMatthew Kobach21:16

       It's true. I-

    3. CWChris Williamson21:17

       50% of the weddings that you need to go to are your partner's friends, and 50% of them-

    4. MKMatthew Kobach21:22

       Definitely.

    5. CWChris Williamson21:22

       ... are your friends. So if I don't have to go to the wedding, I do 50% fewer weddings than everyone else. That's a competitive advantage. Like, you cannot get out.

    6. MKMatthew Kobach21:30

       Yes, yeah.

    7. CWChris Williamson21:31

       Even Naval Ravikant can't get out of going to his wife's friend's wedding. Like, it ain't happening, you know? And so-

    8. MKMatthew Kobach21:39

       Yeah.

    9. CWChris Williamson21:39

       ... that, there's a perfect example.

    10. MKMatthew Kobach21:42

        Mm-hmm. I ... Well, right, and it ends up being a, a trade-off o- obviously. And so you get to ... A- and, but a lot of it too is you end up, if you can ... In solitude, if you can, when you're single, when you're in your 20s and 30s, depending on when you get married and settle down, which by the way, I'm slightly older than you, but I was doing the same thing. At 32, I was single, um, ju- like, spending time with myself. Like, I had a dog. Like, we would go to the dog park every day. I'd walk a trail for an hour, and, um, you know-

    11. CWChris Williamson22:07

        So you're saving this hope for me yet.

    12. MKMatthew Kobach22:08

        ... sometimes take a notebook and ... This hope for you, yeah. But no, but it's like I was in the exact same shoes and, uh, and, and honestly, doing this, like, uh, you're obviously in a situation where you're setting yourself up to succeed not only right now, but later. Like, talking to all these interesting people, uh, not that I'm interesting, but all the other people that you've had on before. But talking to them and, like, getting all these different perspectives on lives, like, you got a lot of good stuff, like, bouncing around in your head. Even if you don't, uh, you know, like, write it down or repeat it or something, it's still in there. It's still processing. And so whenever it is that you, you know, settle down, start a family, whatever it is, you've already got such a good foundation that it's gonna end up being ... It's, it's kinda like you've put up all the, all the bricks of the house, and you're like, "All right. I ... There's literally no more bricks I can put up. Like, I g- I guess I could add some more bricks, but it's not gonna make the house any better. It's time to add some drywall. It's time to add some paint and some furniture and stuff." And that's where you get to a point where someone else is able to help you, uh, add those things. Um, so it's really up to me.

    13. CWChris Williamson23:06

        That's a really nice analogy, man. I, I, I love it. I had a ... An- Andrew Scott was on the show the other day, a longevity expert. He said, "More women-"

    14. MKMatthew Kobach23:14

        Mm-hmm.

    15. CWChris Williamson23:14

        "... in

13. 23:15 – 24:00

    Longevity expert

    1. CWChris Williamson23:15

       2019 had children over the age of 40 than under the age of 20."

    2. MKMatthew Kobach23:21

       Oh, wow. Yeah. I, I-

    3. CWChris Williamson23:23

       Serious, man.

    4. MKMatthew Kobach23:24

       Honestly, you have to kind of believe that too. Uh, 'cause I think there is a lot of people that are kinda doing what we're doing, where you wanna get yourself right first. You wanna make sure that, like, you're the best possible version, or at least you're on the right track. And, uh, a- and obviously you have to have the means to do it and stuff, but, uh, I, I ... Like, I'm in the same boat. I'm not rushing to have kids. I wanna be ... I wanna have everything feel secure, feel right, and, and feel like I'm ready for this next step as opposed to just being thrown into the fire (laughs) and, like, hope for the best, kiddo. Good luck.

    5. CWChris Williamson23:55

       I know. I know, yeah, just jump into the deep end. Tell me about the stock exchange.

14. 24:00 – 25:15

    Managing the NYSE social media

    1. CWChris Williamson24:00

       Tell the, tell the people that don't know-

    2. MKMatthew Kobach24:01

       Yeah, yeah.

    3. CWChris Williamson24:02

       ... what you did for the last, last few years-

    4. MKMatthew Kobach24:03

       Mm-hmm.

    5. CWChris Williamson24:04

       ... what, what you did.

    6. MKMatthew Kobach24:06

       So I was the head of social media and digital media for the New York Stock Exchange. Recently left that job, um, uh, just a few weeks ago.And what I did was, they didn't have a social media, uh, presence really before I came. This is 2014. And so I had to create it. I had to, uh, figure out what we were gonna do, figure out what platforms we were gonna be on, and it was so much fun. I was very lucky to, uh, be in a company that have a boss that just was kinda like, "All right, if you think it's a good idea, do it." Which is unbelievably empowering for any job. Like, this is outside of social media. If you have a boss that trusts you, but especially in social media where it's so public-facing. You know? Like, I mess up, CNBC reports on it.

    7. CWChris Williamson24:49

       (laughs)

    8. MKMatthew Kobach24:49

       Like, it's-

    9. CWChris Williamson24:50

       (laughs)

    10. MKMatthew Kobach24:51

        ... like, that's a- that's a lot of stress, especially the first time. I, and I know every person who's ever done social media for a brand, it's kinda like that first tweet, that first post, it's like being on top of a cliff and, like, you're looking over, yeah, oh, for sure, and you're, like, looking over the edge and you're like, "All right, I gotta jump, I gotta jump." And you're, and you just kinda gotta psych yourself up to do it. Obviously you do it 1,000 times, it- it become, you know, second nature. But to

15. 25:15 – 27:15

    The secret to life

    1. MKMatthew Kobach25:15

       know that, like, if you mess up, you're gonna trend for the wrong reasons-

    2. CWChris Williamson25:18

       (laughs)

    3. MKMatthew Kobach25:18

       ... and there's gonna be, uh, reporters calling. Especially for an institution like the New York Stock Exchange. Like, you can imagine one wrong tweet and, you know, like, you could arguably move the markets with a wrong tweet or-

    4. CWChris Williamson25:30

       Oh (laughs) .

    5. MKMatthew Kobach25:30

       ... or with, uh, you know, if someone had ill intentions.

    6. CWChris Williamson25:33

       Oh my God (laughs) . The stakes-

    7. MKMatthew Kobach25:34

       They've taken away all the passes from me now that- that I'm gone.

    8. CWChris Williamson25:37

       Thank God for that, yeah.

    9. MKMatthew Kobach25:38

       So it's- Yeah, on me. But so anyways, so I did that and, uh, and what happened was the, no one really expected the New York Stock Exchange to be any good at social media. Uh, so the b- whi- which is good news for me, 'cause that means the bar was set incredibly low, and that's the secret to life. To have expectations super low and then making it so you can't help but to exceed them. Uh, it's funny, I was actually thinking about this, and I'll, again, I'm gonna go off on a tangent 'cause that's apparently just what I do. Uh, but think about, like, so much of your life is comparison. So it's kinda like you, if you live in this really nice subdivision and it's everyone's got all these beautiful houses and you've got the crappiest house in that subdivision, you're gonna kinda feel like you don't really have that good of a life. But if you live in a less nice subdivision, you have the same exact house and it just happens to be the nicest house in that subdivision, you're gonna feel like you're a king. And it's because you're comparing yourself to, you know, what's around you. And that was the same idea for the New York Stock Exchange. You were kinda comparing our- ourselves to other financial institutions which were unbelievably boring, unbelievably dry, unbelievably uninteresting. And so all it was was, like, what if we just kinda talk like we're a person? What if we put me on camera interviewing CEOs, uh, and really quick stuff, like, you know, 60 seconds, where we're able to demystify CEOs a little bit? 'Cause, uh, you know, with the Elon Musks and the Bezos and the Zuckerbergs, like, they become mythical creatures almost, you know? And so we wanted to just, we wanted to do a little bit like, CEOs are just regular people. And it was, and we did it super lo-fi, I've got my phone right here, it was literally, like, me grabbing a CEO, doing this-

    10. CWChris Williamson27:14

        (laughs)

    11. MKMatthew Kobach27:14

        ... and just,

16. 27:15 – 28:55

    Interviewing CEOs

    1. MKMatthew Kobach27:15

       and just talking to them. Completely disarmed the CEO, it felt super real, it didn't, you know, like, whenever you're watching a CEO talk they're hitting their talking points, they're talking to investors, they're, you know, they're super polished. But this completely disarmed them. And we could have fun little stupid, you know, questions that weren't about the stock price, that weren't about, you know, the next quarter. So it was this really unique way to, to talk about financial markets, to talk about businesses and to talk to CEOs. And, uh, and we were just making it up as we went along. You know, like Snapchat was invented, or like gained popularity while I was there. And it was like, "What are we gonna do on Snapchat? We should be on it." And that's when it turned into, "All right, I'll interview CEOs," like let's... And again, that's where it goes back to having a, a team that empowers you. I wa- I, I literally said, I'm like, "Are you all right if I'm on camera as the face of the New York Stock Exchange on social interviewing CEOs?" And they were like, "No, love it. Great. Do it. Like, we trust you." And so a- and that's why, again, bar was set low, had a team that really empowered me, and then we got noticed by, like, media outlets and, and stuff. So people wanted to write stories, people wanted to say, you know, like, "Wow, we didn't expect the New York Stock Exchange Pinterest page to be this good."

    2. CWChris Williamson28:28

       (laughs)

    3. MKMatthew Kobach28:28

       "Why, why is it this good?" And it's like, "I mean, yeah, I appreciate it, it's good, but it's because you expected nothing."

    4. CWChris Williamson28:33

       (laughs)

    5. MKMatthew Kobach28:34

       So as long as I had ed- like the, like again, the bar was one, I gave you a three out of ten, but-

    6. CWChris Williamson28:39

       (laughs)

    7. MKMatthew Kobach28:40

       ... y- you know, three times expectations. Uh, so that, that's what I did for, for almo- or for five years, six years, whatever it was. Um, and then and then moved on, had a cool new opportunity and so I jumped into that.

    8. CWChris Williamson28:52

       You must have had some awesome experiences during that

17. 28:55 – 30:45

    My biggest regret

    1. CWChris Williamson28:55

       time?

    2. MKMatthew Kobach28:55

       Oh, for sure. If you go, I wish, I, I wish would've taken more pictures. Like, that's my biggest regret. If you go to my Instagram, which is the same as my Twitter, uh, you can see so many pictures of like so many cool celebrities and athletes and CEOs and stuff. Um, it wi- it was like a pinch yourself moment every day.

    3. CWChris Williamson29:13

       (laughs)

    4. MKMatthew Kobach29:13

       Um, and I, I don't mean to say this right, I meant to se- say this part because, like, I literally still can't believe and still can't quite comprehend it. I remember I was interviewing Shaquille O'Neal for the second time and I just remember thinking, like, nowhere in my life plan-

    5. CWChris Williamson29:28

       (laughs)

    6. MKMatthew Kobach29:28

       ... was this sentence ever gonna be, "I'm about to go interview Shaq again." And it was just so wild and so crazy. So, like, that, uh, that's why, like, uh, I'll have so many fond memories of that place. Like the, the amount of cool people I, I got to meet, like it, it was just through the roof. And, and again, the fact that I was able to use social media. You have someone who's super famous like Shaq come, he gets hounded. Everyone wants to talk with him, everyone wants his picture, everyone wants his autograph. But I legitimately had a business reason. So I can go up to their PR person and I go, "Hey, I know Shaq's here and he's talking about how he just joined the board of Papa John's, um, I do social media for the New York Stock Exchange. I'd love to get-"... 90 seconds with him so that he can promote the Papa John's thing. And they go, "Yeah, sure, great." So they push everyone away, I get to go in. Now, I've got, like, a whole crowd around me. Like, talk about, like, getting real good by doing something public. You've got, like, this whole floor of traders and all these people watching. But again, it's just me, him and a camera doing a quick little interview for 90 seconds because, you know, he's there to do press and I'm, you know... Social media is kind of press, it's at least publicity. I was able to do stuff like that on a regular basis. It was, it was just, you know... It's still surreal, to be honest.

    7. CWChris Williamson30:34

       (laughs) Dude, that must be so cool. Like, having memories like that from a job is worth an awful-

    8. MKMatthew Kobach30:41

       Mm-hmm.

    9. CWChris Williamson30:41

       ... awful lot. There's some things that, if you're fortunate, you can look

18. 30:45 – 34:55

    Atmosphere in the NYSE

    1. CWChris Williamson30:45

       back on in your career and be really, really thankful that they happened. And, uh, it's-

    2. MKMatthew Kobach30:49

       Yeah.

    3. CWChris Williamson30:50

       ... worth an awful lot more than the paycheck when it's like that. What's the atmosphere like in the New York Stock Exchange? Obviously we see these kind of quite clichéd-

    4. MKMatthew Kobach30:57

       Yeah.

    5. CWChris Williamson30:57

       ... images of the guys with the-

    6. MKMatthew Kobach30:59

       Uh-huh.

    7. CWChris Williamson30:59

       ... the pieces of paper shouting in the air, like-

    8. MKMatthew Kobach31:01

       It is.

    9. CWChris Williamson31:02

       Is the kind of alpha male, a gram of caffeine per day atmosphere kind of s-... Does it permeate through to the social media floor?

    10. MKMatthew Kobach31:10

        I'm, I'm happy you said, I'm happy you said (laughs) I'm happy you said caffeine.

    11. CWChris Williamson31:13

        Caffeine, yeah. I knew. (laughs)

    12. MKMatthew Kobach31:15

        Uh, caffein, the, the, um... So, so a lot of it is done electronically now. So what you almost have... So you don't really have that... You know, like, you see it in the movies, you see it on TV. It's not quite like that anymore. You still have people there, but what they're doing is facilitating these trades electronically, so they're just really overseeing stuff. They'll get on the phone for large trades, they'll make sure... Like, they have a, um, uh, a phone where they can talk to the CFO of certain companies, vice versa, the CFO can talk to them if, if they don't like something that's going on with the stock or they have a question. Um, but yeah, it's, it ends up being a lot more quiet. It's a lot more like beeping and buzzing from the computers-

    13. CWChris Williamson31:49

        (laughs)

    14. MKMatthew Kobach31:49

        ... than people expect. The, uh, the one exception, or the ... I shouldn't say the one exception, but the biggest exception is during the IPO time. And that's when, and an IPO is when a company goes from private to public. Uh, so you've got someone like Airbnb who's private right now. At some point they're going to go public, and when they do, they have to pick an exchange to go public on. And what that means when they go public is someone like me and you can buy shares. Like, me and you can't buy shares in Airbnb now, but when they're public, that's when you can just, you know, open your Robinhood account, whatever it might be, buy Airbnb. Uh, but what they've got to do is you've got this private market that has a bunch of shares, and then you have the public market that wants to buy shares. So they're pricing, they're trying to figure out the right price to open the stock at, at what price, like, what does the public want this stock at? And that's where you have traders who, like, in real time are yelling at each other, wanting to know what, like, the current, like, people... What, what are people offering? What are people offering to sell it at? What are people offering to buy it at? Uh, so that's super exciting and, and that stuff. Like, and I, again, I got to be in, like, the middle of that. Like, that's wild to me. And, and I got, I had plenty of traders... I'm sure if there's any trader listening to this, they're thinking, "Oh, that SOB, Matt Kovach, he got in my way so many times-"

    15. CWChris Williamson32:55

        (laughs)

    16. MKMatthew Kobach32:55

        "... because he had to get a picture and a video." 'Cause you're, you're a little bit like a photographer. If you've ever had, like, a photographer at a sporting event, you have to get up close. You have to be unapologetic about getting in someone's way and getting the shot. And it's the same way with social media. Uh, you know, like, they didn't want... You know, our, our audience didn't want the shot where, like, I'm shooting this way and it's 20 feet away of a trader. They wanted the phone right in their face so I could see someone yelling and, and doing that. And, like, again, that's what sells our floor, that's what sells our product too, so it was justifiable that I was that close. But then they also have a job, so, you know, you kind of have these competing things. And you get to a good rhythm of they know who I am, I know who they are. We try to stay out of each other's way. Uh, but super exciting just being in the middle of that. Like, like, there's so many IPO pictures. You have all these major companies that have IPOed for the past five years. And you've got, like, Getty and, and, uh, you know, the stock pho- photos of the, of it. And I'm sitting there, like, I'm just next to the CEO just hanging out. Sadly, very embarrassingly, if you're on the podcast you can't see this, but I'm gonna, like... I'm just sitting there looking at my phone like this, like I (laughs) , like I don't care about anything, really.

    17. CWChris Williamson33:55

        Doing work. Yeah, exactly.

    18. MKMatthew Kobach33:57

        I swear I'm working, but it looks like I'm just scrolling Instagram or something.

    19. CWChris Williamson34:00

        (laughs) Yeah. Just sat there texting, "So what are you having for dinner, honey? Uh, I really-"

    20. MKMatthew Kobach34:04

        Yeah.

    21. CWChris Williamson34:04

        "... I really don't want Italian again. The last time that we got that." Snap. You in Bezos.

    22. MKMatthew Kobach34:09

        Yeah. And then you've g- and then you've got, like, traders in the background, like, "Ah." Speaking of Snap, one of the... We had Snap go public there, which is awesome. You have Evan Spiegel and then his, uh... I th- I forget if it was wife or girlfriend at the time, but Miranda Kerr. They're there taking, like, Snapchat selfies with, like, the dog filter on their face. It's like, it's just super, again, surreal moment.

    23. CWChris Williamson34:27

        Very bizarre.

    24. MKMatthew Kobach34:28

        Like, you're like, "This is the dude who did Snapchat with his wife putting on the dog filter with a tongue on the floor of the Stock Exchange. Like, it was just-

    25. CWChris Williamson34:36

        (laughs) At work.

    26. MKMatthew Kobach34:36

        You know?

    27. CWChris Williamson34:37

        We're at work.

    28. MKMatthew Kobach34:37

        Yeah. I'm just at work. Why did I quit? What am I doing?

    29. CWChris Williamson34:40

        I know, man.

    30. MKMatthew Kobach34:41

        (laughs)
19. 34:55 – 37:25

    Wall Street Bets

    1. CWChris Williamson34:55

       So these guys are the most outlandish traders on the internet. They made it to the front page of some huge financial magazine at the beginning of this year. Um, there's been all sorts of ongoing crazy litigation to do with it. It's, like, a million plus people now. But basically it's, it's people that are beyond reckless on Robinhood, like, insane calls and puts and, uh, uh, within-

    2. MKMatthew Kobach35:25

       Yeah.

    3. CWChris Williamson35:25

       ... with ridiculous timeframes, like by the end of tomorrow. And there's people leveraging their entire net worth and more for internet points-

    4. MKMatthew Kobach35:34

       Yeah.

    5. CWChris Williamson35:34

       ... from people that they're never going to meet. And they get immortalized on this, like-

    6. MKMatthew Kobach35:41

       Oh.

    7. CWChris Williamson35:41

       ... uh, within this subcommunity. And there's some people that have made hundreds and hundreds of thousands of dollars in a couple of days, and then blown the entire amount and are now, like, 300 grand in debt. And it's just the most... There's a (laughs) , The Dankest Trades of WallStreetBets is a YouTube series.

    8. MKMatthew Kobach36:01

       Mm-hmm.

    9. CWChris Williamson36:02

       Um, which, like, summarizes each quarter's trades and goes back through it. Man, it is, it's intense. You will, you will be on glove it.

    10. MKMatthew Kobach36:12

        I, I'm stressed out now. I don't know how they can handle this.

    11. CWChris Williamson36:15

        (laughs)

    12. MKMatthew Kobach36:15

        It's like I can't ... I'm worried that these people don't know what the F they're doing.

    13. CWChris Williamson36:19

        I think that's the point, yeah.

    14. MKMatthew Kobach36:20

        Like, oh, there's like ... I know it's the point. Oh, it's so ... Oh, it's like a ... Oh, my God. I'll, I'll try. I'll, I'll ... It can only look for so long.

    15. CWChris Williamson36:27

        Yeah.

    16. MKMatthew Kobach36:27

        Look, I feel ... It, it, I think it brings ... Uh, I just ... It's, it's, it's just that, ugh.

    17. CWChris Williamson36:31

        Have you seen those ... You've seen those videos of the guys that do, they'll climb up a crane tower that's sort of 500 feet in the air?

    18. MKMatthew Kobach36:38

        Yeah. Uh-huh. It's the same idea.

    19. CWChris Williamson36:38

        That's precisely the same feeling that you have when you watch Wall Street Bets on Reddit.

    20. MKMatthew Kobach36:44

        Oh, my God. Oh, I, I just hope these ... I hope they're not kids-

    21. CWChris Williamson36:46

        Sweaty palms.

    22. MKMatthew Kobach36:47

        But they are kids. And I hope they're responsible.

    23. CWChris Williamson36:49

        They-

    24. MKMatthew Kobach36:49

        I know, I need, I need someone to be like, "Matt, you need to," (laughs) "you need to stop thinking about this. You're stressing yourself out."

    25. CWChris Williamson36:55

        (laughs) Exactly. We were talking about being mindful and re- reverting to the present earlier on.

    26. MKMatthew Kobach36:59

        I know. It's ... What's funny too is working at the Stock Exchange, so many people ask me, they're like, "Give me stock tips. Give me advice." And my advice is so unbelievably boring.

    27. CWChris Williamson37:07

        (laughs)

    28. MKMatthew Kobach37:07

        It's like, "Find a nice diversified ETF. Just put your money in it every month and don't touch it for 10 years." Like, that's what you do. And, uh, but everyone wants to, you know-

    29. CWChris Williamson37:18

        What's the stock pick of this year?

    30. MKMatthew Kobach37:20

        ... short question first. (laughs)
20. 37:25 – 45:22

    Stock Tips

    1. CWChris Williamson37:25

       the ground floor at the New York Stock Exchange for the last f- six years. And Morgan Housel is, as far as I'm concerned, one of the best sort of financial writers on the internet. And both of you said the same thing. Just find something aggregated that's not going to tank and don't touch your money and hold on. And when it goes low, hold on harder, and then keep holding on.

    2. MKMatthew Kobach37:49

       Mm-hmm.

    3. CWChris Williamson37:49

       And then maybe in a generation or two's time, you'll have some money. That's it.

    4. MKMatthew Kobach37:54

       Yeah.

    5. CWChris Williamson37:54

       And it's so boring.

    6. MKMatthew Kobach37:55

       It's-

    7. CWChris Williamson37:55

       It's so boring. Someone, they, what they want you to say is that-

    8. MKMatthew Kobach37:58

       So boring.

    9. CWChris Williamson37:58

       ... at the beginning of February, you should've decided to go long on Tesla, because now it's up 4X.

    10. MKMatthew Kobach38:03

        Yeah. Can you ... And, and, like, who would've ... No one in their right mind would've even said that. You know, like, that, that's a problem too is, like, you wanna do, um ... You know, if someone wants, like, a stock tip, like, what you're doing, it's like, you're literally asking someone to predict the future and to predict emotion. Like, the ... You can't ... It's really hard to argue some stocks. I'm, I won't name any by name, but they don't necessarily trade on fundamentals. They don't trade on stuff that anyone could see. They trade because people love the brand or love the company or just love the idea. And I don't know how to gauge that. I don't know how to predict that. I don't know how to say, "People love this stock and they're gonna keep buying it." Like, maybe, maybe not. I really don't know. But, you know, it's not like, "Oh, I know this new chip manufacturer just, uh, cut their, you know ... They got a new, they got a new plant in whatever country and it's gonna cut their prices by half." Like, that's the only reasonable type of information that you could use that would then be like, "All right, and I don't think it's been priced into the stock price, so that's a good buy, in my opinion." But, like, s- it, it, the past four months, it's just been, like, mostly emotion, it seems like, at least the big names. So, like, I, I don't know. Like-

    11. CWChris Williamson39:12

        What was handling the social media like during the last four months?

    12. MKMatthew Kobach39:18

        So it became ... Um, so one, we don't actually talk about specific stocks that much. We don't talk about, uh, stock prices. The, the reason being is that, like, so legally our restrictions were you cannot talk about, like, what a stock's gonna do or what you think it's gonna do. We can't, like, give financial advice. We gotta stay away from that stuff. So it was very black and white about what we could and couldn't do. You could talk about what a stock is currently, like what it has done. Like, so it closed today at $70. That was fine. You can't say anything forward-looking. That was a big no-no. But what happened was we were a little, uh, uh ... Like, we had some fun, you know. Like, if there was a cool trend on social media that made sense for us, we would join it. Um, you know, again, it was me on camera, like, paling around with CEOs, like it was showing them in a different light. All of a sudden, in, what was it, February? Everything just starts tanking. So you're having, like, thousand point drops in the Dow. And, and the way the Stock Exchange is set up, if it drops quickly enough or by a certain percentage in a day, it literally freezes. So, like, you literally ... No one can trade for 15 minutes. It's like, "All right, guys, circuit breaker, 1:00."

    13. CWChris Williamson40:25

        What happens, what happens when that happens? Is there, like, a big red alarm bell-

    14. MKMatthew Kobach40:29

        Yeah.

    15. CWChris Williamson40:29

        ... that goes somewhere?

    16. MKMatthew Kobach40:30

        Yeah, it's just ... It's just, like, all of a sudden ... Nothing happens, but all of a sudden it goes. And, and it had ... I don't know that it happened. I'm pre- ... I'm gonna ... Someone feel free to reply and tell me the actual answer. But it'd been, like, a decade or two, I think, since it had happened last. Um, but all of a sudden, everything on the floor just, like, pauses. So it's, it's, uh ... And it's a different color. You got red and green. And I forget what it was. Maybe it was, like, yellow or something, and it was, like, just like X's.

    17. CWChris Williamson40:53

        (laughs)

    18. MKMatthew Kobach40:53

        And so none of the screens, you could, like, trade. And, uh ... And it's an automatic thing. It's, it's, uh, it's a computer program, so once the-

    19. CWChris Williamson41:02

        A breaker, right? Yeah.

    20. MKMatthew Kobach41:02

        Uh, yeah, once it hits the, I think it was 7%, once it hits that, it's literally no one can do anything, and you just hang out for 15 minutes. And it's real surreal. You've got everyone on the floor just kind of waiting for 15 minutes. Uh, but for us, what we wanted to do is we knew it was gonna happen. Like, you can kind of ... Before a, a stock ... Uh, before the market opens, you can see what the futures are trading at, and you can see that, like, the Dow's gonna open up or down whatever percent. And so if you see that it's gonna open down 6%, you know, like, oh, there's a chance that this could go further. So sitting there waiting. And for us what we wanted to do is when this started happening, one, we wanted to be very real time. We wanted people to get their information from us. So if the, if the stocks were paused trading, I was literally sitting there. I had the tweet ready, because I knew it was gonna happen. As soon as it did, I hit go. And the reason is we then became like a trusted source for that information. When people were doing stories about it, they saw our name. And so we got to get our brand out there significantly more than if we waited even a minute later. Uh, the other thing we did is now, I mean, people are losing money. You know, like, this is people's 401Ks. These are people's investments that maybe they're living off of, or at the very least, now panicked that, you know, you bought something and now it's down 20%.Um, so we just, we got rid of all, you know, kind of cute stuff. We got rid of all fun stuff, and it just became very matter-of-fact. "Here's where the market just opened at. Here's where the market just closed at. And let's talk to this person about what this means for, you know, their stock." So we really changed our tone overnight, almost. Uh, and so we ... You know, like, we're talking about people's money, and if money, if money's doing well, you can have some fun, you can be a little silly. But when people are losing money, you v- you know, that's when you kind of tighten the tie and you look a little more professional and, and you don't have as much fun.

    21. CWChris Williamson42:47

        Anyone that's ever been on a very long diet knows exactly the same feeling as when you've got money worries. It's like everything is ... Everything sucks.

    22. MKMatthew Kobach42:56

        (laughs)

    23. CWChris Williamson42:57

        Everything that happens-

    24. MKMatthew Kobach42:58

        Uh-huh.

    25. CWChris Williamson42:58

        ... in your life is like, "This thing happened, but I'm hungry." And it's the same as that. It's like, "This thing happened. My, my daughter just won at her football. That's great, but the stock market's just crashed. This thing happened, but the stock market's just crashed."

    26. MKMatthew Kobach43:10

        Yeah.

    27. CWChris Williamson43:10

        So you're right. Like don't ... Anyone out there that is listening that is getting social media advice, if you're the guy from the CDC who looks after their social media-

    28. MKMatthew Kobach43:19

        (laughs)

    29. CWChris Williamson43:20

        ... or the, the, the lady who looks after British Rail network or something like that, if everything goes down, don't-

    30. MKMatthew Kobach43:27

        Mm-hmm.
21. 45:22 – 47:36

    Evolutionary Psychology

    1. CWChris Williamson45:22

       Did you ever take your interest in evolutionary psychology and use it when watching the traders, and the atmosphere, and the personalities of the people that you saw on the New York Stock Exchange?

    2. MKMatthew Kobach45:33

       I can't ... I, so I certainly applied it to the content we did. So like I, I've always ... So the ... I'll, I'll rewind a little bit. I didn't actually explain what I did a, a PhD in. Which, by the way, I dropped out. I did not finish the PhD. A lot of people think I have the PhD 'cause I say I pursued it. Just to be 100% certain, I do not have it. I'm a dropout, and I'm a very proud PhD dropout. I like to say I was smart enough to be a PhD dropout.

    3. CWChris Williamson45:57

       Nice.

    4. MKMatthew Kobach45:58

       Um, what I did was ... This is in 2008, '09, '10, and so social media was like just kinda getting started. And I wanted to predict how people use social media. So that's why evolutionary psychology was such a, a, a robust theoretical framework to base predictions on how people would use social media. So that's when it became clear of like how to communicate on social media, how to do it if you're a brand. Like what are the kinds of stuff that people want to do? Like they wanna build communities. Like we're tribal, uh, uh, species, and so you wanna like take into account like those things. Like we're, um, a, a, a species that needs to communicate clearly to understand each other. And so, uh, was really invested in there. And so that's what I used evolutionary psychology from. If I was a trader myself when I was doing that, uh, I probably would try to think about it differently. But it was like my world never necessitated, you know, interacting with them in that fashion. It was ... My job was to like show emotion, because I understand that emotion sells the New York Stock Exchange, rather than explaining what our market model was. And so that means ... So for me, the evolutionary, uh, psychology aspect was let me get in this trader's space while he's shouting, and I'm gonna record a video. And that's what's gonna resonate with our audience, as opposed to like me talking, having like an interview with someone where they're kind of explaining what they do. Um, I, I'm sure there's a whole litany of things. Like if I, you know, wanted to think about evolutionary psychology and why people are nuts about trading certain stocks and other stocks, like I, I'm sure there's a totally ripe for, for exploration. But I've never ... I haven't spent much time thinking about it.

22. 47:36 – 50:57

    Matthews Social Media Predictions

    1. MKMatthew Kobach47:36

    2. CWChris Williamson47:36

       How many of your predictions about social media came true?

    3. MKMatthew Kobach47:42

       Uh, well, so what I ended up doing is I was ... At the time, I was looking at, um, uh, interpersonal communication. And so it could ... And to be honest, it's been so long, I don't even remember what I ended up predicting. 'Cause what ended up happening was I would, uh ... And for anyone who has never done a dissertation, this is how it works, at least for mine, is you do a bunch of coursework. Then you have to have a, um, (smacks lips) a, like a study that you set up. You make some predictions, you make some hypotheses, and then you've gotta test them. So I would write them based on where social media was at the s- at the current time, and then it was moving so fast, Facebook would make an update and then make my predictions moot because I had- you know, I had to work in the al- like the ... They changed their algorithm, and now, like, what I wanted to do was like, well, that's not part of what their platform is anymore. And so I got really frustrated with that, which is why I left. It was like-

    4. CWChris Williamson48:28

       (laughs)

    5. MKMatthew Kobach48:28

       ... a year of like writing, and rewriting, and rewriting. I'm like, "This is ... I can't do this anymore."Um, but a lot of the predictions I made was about ... were about attraction and about, like, uh, how to engage with other people. And so, d- uh, and again, I forget exactly what I said, but it was very clear that like online dating was gonna take off. It was very clear of what to ... how to position your profile to be con- ... be more attractive as, uh, opposed to less attractive. Uh, the difference is, uh, what's in a profile if you're a male attracting a female and if you're a female attracting a male. Uh, and so you ... And you kinda see all this stuff now in all the online dating, you know, all the Tinders and, uh, Bumbles and stuff of the world. So that was kinda where I was at. And then it was like, how do we then communicate with each other, uh, once we've decided, you know, this is a person that I wanna talk to? So i- it really ... The, the closest thing I can say to a prediction that came true was really that-

    6. CWChris Williamson49:18

       (laughs)

    7. MKMatthew Kobach49:18

       ... we're gonna use social media in the same exact way that we, you know, communicate offline. And the reason Tinder was so effective or so popular, the reason it totally zoomed out is, one, they gamified it a little bit. They made it fun and interesting. But more importantly, it wasn't like a dating site. You know what you don't do if you're single and you go to a bar? You do not get to see what everyone's interests are. It's not like they're hovering over their head, like, "I like canoeing, and I like going outdoors, and I'm this old," or whatever. You go to a bar, and you go, "That person, I, I'm kind of attracted to that person." And you go over and you strike up a conversation, or neither it works or it doesn't work. And that's what Tinder was. The difference was instead of saying, like, "I'm attracted to that person. I'm gonna go walk up to 'em," you just swiped right. And then it w- real ... It mimicked what we do offline, and that's all social media does, is like ... If ... People complicate it. Don't. Understand how we work without social media and then just ... or without technology, period, and then layer on technology, and you'll know how we act. Like, it's really that simple. Uh, th- there's ... It's, it's like (laughs) the most attractive people in real life are gonna get the most ad- most dates. The most attractive people on Tinder are gonna get the most dates. Like, it's not ... uh, it's not some complicated, uh, formula here. Uh, and then if you're a guy, there's gonna be certain things that you're gonna have to add to your profile to be more attractive, uh, than, than if you're a woman. So, uh, i- it's super interesting to me. I think in another life, I would've been, like, an online dating consultant or coach or something.

    8. CWChris Williamson50:44

       (laughs)

    9. MKMatthew Kobach50:45

       Um.

    10. CWChris Williamson50:45

        Dude, I could've seen you doing that.

    11. MKMatthew Kobach50:47

        'Cause, see, but ... You, you see so many, uh, s- men especially, you see so many men that it's like, "This is your profile? No wonder you haven't met anyone." Like, why, why do you have that picture

23. 50:57 – 54:10

    Biggest Mistakes

    1. MKMatthew Kobach50:57

       there? Why do you have that picture?

    2. CWChris Williamson50:57

       What are the biggest, uh ... What are the biggest errors? What are the biggest mistakes that you think guys and girls make when setting up their profiles online?

    3. MKMatthew Kobach51:03

       Yeah. So, uh, what ... The biggest mistake one is set yourself up at ... Well, f- well, first off, figure out what you're looking for. So if you wanna look for a long-term relationship, uh ... And I'll just do it for, for guys. I don't wanna speak for women. But what you're gonna wanna do is make yourself look like a long-term attractive mate. And to be a long-term attractive mate, there's several different factors, like, uh, uh ... And, and y- not everyone's high on everyone. You can't be good-looking, and you can't be kind, and you can't be funny, and you can't be-

    4. CWChris Williamson51:30

       Playing guitar.

    5. MKMatthew Kobach51:31

       ... "I have a lot of resources." Yeah. You, you need a little bit of all of them. So what you've got to do is figure out which one of these traits that you have, uh, are most desirable and highlight those traits. So again, this goes back to the evolutionary psychology thing. We're attracted to, one, people that are good-looking. People always say beauty is in the eye of the beholder. It's not really. There, there are some cultural differences, but every culture likes good skin, good teeth, good hair. Uh, so there's certain things to ... That's why you have, like, these Photoshop apps that are so popular, is because from an evolutionary standpoint, they make us more ... look more attractive because they make us look more healthy, because if you look more healthy, you're gonna have a higher chance of reproducing with that person who's healthy. And so you're gonna wanna make your ... uh, highlight your attractiveness as much as possible. And again, it's why, it's why ... If you're a guy, you really ... Like, the best thing you can do to be attractive is to lift weights. Like, just get fit. Like, that, that is more than half of being attractive as a guy. And again, it goes back to fitness. It goes back to evolutionary psychology. So one, so do that. So if you haven't lifted weights, lift weights. Uh, you know, get a picture where your teeth and hair and, and, uh, and skin look good. But then also ... But they ... Like, that, uh, that's not, uh ... it's not just that. So you can't just be good-looking, if you wanna be a long-term mate. You've also got to, uh, really suggest that you're gonna be invested in the long term, in the long run. And you've also got to show that you're gonna be able to, uh, access resources, get resources, provide resources. So showing things like you're kind, showing things that maybe you have like a, a bond with your family, uh, you know, that you, you're ... that you love your mother kinda stuff, you know, and that you would raise a kid who also loves their mother. Um, and again, I'm not saying to be deceiving about this stuff. I'm saying it's marketing. Highlight your best possible qualities. And you wanna be trustworthy. And, uh, and you wanna ... And being things like funny and intelligent are important because those are ways to get resources, you know. People who are clever, who work hard, who have ambition, who are smart tend to have more resources. So again, if you can crack a joke right away, you can say something clever or funny, or that ... It's the same reason why you would put Harvard on your Tinder profile, you know? It suggests that you're someone of means that's gonna have more means. Uh, so you really want to do everything to highlight your attractiveness, highlight your, uh, commitment to being a long-term partner, and your ability to, to gather resources. And this isn't to say that women need resources or need someone to do it, but again, I think we're all kinda programmed. We've all got this in our DNA that we're still attracted to that ... those kinda people even if we don't need

24. 54:10 – 55:49

    Sexy Sun Hypothesis

    1. MKMatthew Kobach54:10

       it.

    2. CWChris Williamson54:10

       It's very difficult, I think, for the vast majority of women to deprogram the attraction to a man who has the ability to gather resources. Like, it is-

    3. MKMatthew Kobach54:23

       Mm-hmm.

    4. CWChris Williamson54:24

       There are ladies out there who are the breadwinners in the family. That's awesome. But the likelihood is if you are richer or d-... better educated than the man that you are married to. The man is richer or more educated than you are, and/or has some other social notoriety, incredibly talented, very muscular, very good-looking, whatever it is. Because th- that's-

    5. MKMatthew Kobach54:47

       Yeah.

    6. CWChris Williamson54:47

       ... that's the way that life has worked. You are battling against-

    7. MKMatthew Kobach54:51

       Yeah.

    8. CWChris Williamson54:51

       ... some deep, deep, deep-seated genetics. If you are able (laughs) to work-

    9. MKMatthew Kobach54:57

       Mm-hmm.

    10. CWChris Williamson54:58

        ... around that. I had, um, Rob Hen-

    11. MKMatthew Kobach55:00

        Yeah.

    12. CWChris Williamson55:00

        ... Rob Henderson on the show a couple of-

    13. MKMatthew Kobach55:02

        Yeah.

    14. CWChris Williamson55:02

        ... months ago, and he, he was a, a beast. Anyone that's interested in this sort of evolution and dating and how it rolls forward should go back and check that episode out. But he told me about the sexy son hypothesis. Do you know about this?

    15. MKMatthew Kobach55:14

        Oh, it is, uh, yes, it's, it's that... Well, let's see how much I get right. I'm gonna butcher it.

    16. CWChris Williamson55:19

        Yeah, cool.

    17. MKMatthew Kobach55:19

        But it's essentially that, um, women are attracted to men who they think would give them good-looking sons, because then they would be more likely to reproduce as well.

    18. CWChris Williamson55:30

        Yeah, precisely, man. You nailed it.

    19. MKMatthew Kobach55:31

        Yeah, be- Yeah, yeah. Uh-huh. The, the evol- It's just, what's so funny, that's why I love evolutionary psychology so much. It's like, someone says it, and it's just, it just, it clicks. It seems so logical. And, uh, you know, if someone comes up with a better theory, believe me, I'll be the first to, to get rid of it, but, like, it, it's just... Everything just kinda stacks up so perfectly.

25. 55:49 – 1:07:50

    Pride

    1. MKMatthew Kobach55:49

    2. CWChris Williamson55:49

       What are some of the things that... I'll give you one of mine, and then we'll see if you can-

    3. MKMatthew Kobach55:54

       Mm-hmm.

    4. CWChris Williamson55:54

       ... if you can give me some of yours. Some of the kind of, like, jaw-drop moments when you read-

    5. MKMatthew Kobach56:00

       Mm-hmm.

    6. CWChris Williamson56:00

       ... evolutionary psychology. One of mine recently has been, uh, learning about the purpose of pride, that it's a positive feedback mechanism for doing something which is challenging and worthwhile. And the, the sensation of pride is something that we intrinsically seek for ourselves as someone-

    7. MKMatthew Kobach56:18

       Mm-hmm.

    8. CWChris Williamson56:18

       ... who, anyone who is an entrepreneur, who goes and decides to train or do anything that makes you feel uncomfortable, you kind of seek the endorphin hit after doing something, but it's all, it was all abstract. You've kind of thought about it before, and you know how it fits into the bigger picture of you in your life. And you can kinda get lost in the weeds, away from the fact that it's like, nah, evolution's there for absolutely everything that you do, and this-

    9. MKMatthew Kobach56:46

       Mm-hmm.

    10. CWChris Williamson56:46

        ... is no different. The sensation of pride-

    11. MKMatthew Kobach56:48

        Yeah.

    12. CWChris Williamson56:49

        ... to me, because it's something, uh, continuing to motivate yourself, m- most of the motivation comes from chasing that sense of pride that comes afterward. And you think, like, "Well, I'm not doing this for the hedonic treadmill. I've done my explore. I've ensured that I've got rid of the trivial few and focused on the, uh, uh, trivial many and focused on the vital few, and I'm on, uh, eh, expressing my logos." You know, you've taken the top 1% of everyone's work that's looked at this over the last few years, and you think that you understand why you're doing something. Then evolution just comes in-

    13. MKMatthew Kobach57:21

        (laughs)

    14. CWChris Williamson57:21

        ... (laughs) with a big sledgehammer-

    15. MKMatthew Kobach57:22

        Yeah.

    16. CWChris Williamson57:22

        ... and smashes you in the face, and goes, "Yeah, mate, but it's still just evolution." Uh, the-

    17. MKMatthew Kobach57:27

        Mm-hmm.

    18. CWChris Williamson57:27

        ... the, the thing about pride was a real sort of jaw-drop moment for me.

    19. MKMatthew Kobach57:32

        Yeah. Well, and also too, uh, and I'll answer your question, but pride with social media, it's so, i- it's so clear. So it's like if you're someone who's chasing, uh, that social status, that, to feel good about yourself, think about how social media then plays into our evolutionary predilections. Is that the right word? Predilections? Whatever. The way that we're already designed. Uh, so I'm chasing this high of, like, approval from other people, and I'm chasing, like, yeah, I'm working out, I'm getting fit, and I'm doing all this. And then I'm able to post a shirtless picture of me on Instagram that then gets 1,000 likes. And you can see how it's like, this is all just a big reward, uh, of us doing this thing, seeking social status, seeking pride. And, uh, like, that's why social media has totally, and I don't mean this in a, in a, uh, tre- uh, in, like, a bad way, but you can see that social media has, like, hijacked that, or, like, used it to their advantage. Like, we, uh, and I do it too. Like, I-

    20. CWChris Williamson58:26

        Everyone's part of the game now.

    21. MKMatthew Kobach58:26

        ... you wanna argue on status-seeking? Yeah. I, there is absolutely a part of me that likes having, uh, you know, however many followers on Twitter. There's a part that likes me getting 1,000 retweets. I can say, until the cows come home, I do it for myself. I do it to keep myself honest. I do it to, to make sure that I'm increasing my habits, which, sure, that's true, and I could probably, probably pass a lie detector. But again, it's that identity thing, and I've gotta get out of my own head and get at who I am. And it's like, you also like the fact that you've got higher status now because you do it than if you didn't do it.

    22. CWChris Williamson58:58

        It's always a dead end, man.

    23. MKMatthew Kobach58:59

        Uh, to answer your question though, to answer your question, the one, and we talked about it already, it's, it's this gene thing. It's that we're not even in control of the ship. We're not the skipper. We're, we are cargo.

    24. CWChris Williamson59:12

        (laughs)

    25. MKMatthew Kobach59:12

        Like, this what... Your, your brain, all of it, you, if you've got a gene that wants to get passed on, it is gonna do whatever it takes to get passed on. 'Cause we think, "Oh, evolution, I get it." Like, "So I wanna reproduce. I wanna make another version of me." And you're like, "No, no, no." It's even-

    26. CWChris Williamson59:27

        Mm-hmm.

    27. MKMatthew Kobach59:27

        ... it's deeper than that. It's like you've got this one little weird gene that wants to make another version of itself. And depending on how strong that gene is compared to another gene, like, that, that's the stuff that's really wild to wrap your head around. And, and that's what makes you feel like, "I'm not in control here. I'm not... I'm..." You know, and like, uh, like, i- it's like, uh, I- it's like you go on a ship, and, uh, there's, like, a little, like, a steering wheel for the kids to do. Like, th- that's what life feels like. It's like, "Oh, totally, yeah." I'm like, or when I was a kid, I have a little sister, and she'd wanna play video games with me, and I didn't want her to play. So I'd give her a controller and tell her she was playing.

    28. CWChris Williamson1:00:04

        (laughs) That wasn't real.

    29. MKMatthew Kobach1:00:04

        Like, that's, that's what we are.

    30. CWChris Williamson1:00:05

        There's no batteries in that controller. There's just batteries in the one-

Episode duration: 1:39:19