Fat Tony | How To Spend £1,000,000 On Drugs | Modern Wisdom Podcast 166

Fat Tony 0:00 "What was Freddie Mercury like in bed?" And I was like, "I don't know. There were seven other people there."

Chris Williamson 0:03 (laughs)

Fat Tony 0:04 Simple. I remember on my 27th birthday, I remember saying to my mum, "I don't want to live beyond 27," and my mum was like, "Why?" and I was just like, "I just thought t- 27 was like kind of the end of the road type thing." And my mum was like, "Don't be so stupid."

Chris Williamson 0:16 (laughs)

Fat Tony 0:16 "27 is but one of the best years of your life." So, marzipan, diazepam, Rohypnol, they were kind of like the pegging parts of the cocaine. So I would take cocaine, I would take downers to suppress the cocaine. I would drink alcohol to level the cocaine, and then I would take more. And then, of course, I discovered freebasing and crack, and then I discovered crystal meth. When I finally went to see, I would sleep in the recovery position 'cause I was that scared that I was gonna choke on my own vomit every night. Music is the best and biggest drug I've ever taken. It has the ability to transport you to anywhere in the world and, and, and to be with people that you're no longer w- are no longer with us.

Chris Williamson 0:56 (wind blowing) DJ Fat Tony in the building. How are you, man?

Fat Tony 1:00 I'm, I'm okay. I'm good. I've, uh, I've been... Yeah, I'm actually all right today. I've been ill, uh, for the last few weeks, but I'm okay. I'm good now.

Chris Williamson 1:08 You had the 'rona?

Fat Tony 1:09 Yeah, I did. Yeah. It kind of... I kind of was like... I went through a whole week of thinking, "Oh, this is all right. I can do this." Uh, it was kind of a mild flu, bad chest, uh, but I was wise enough to ask my... Well, my doctor decided he wanted to put me on steroids for my chest 'cause I have a bad chest anyway. Uh, so thankfully, I took the steroids. Uh, I... On the... Then it went away on the Thursday, and I thought, "Yeah, it's all really good." Friday night, boom. Temperature 40, 40, in the 40s for four days and four nights. The worst fever. Uh, it went into my chest. I was breathless. It was awful. Yeah, it was really awful.

Chris Williamson 1:49 That's harsh. That's harsh, but feeling good now? Feeling-

Fat Tony 1:51 Yeah, I'm okay. I'm just taking it easy. Do you get what I mean? I'm in no rush to go anywhere, so it's not a problem. But yeah, thank God I had it mild. Yeah.

Chris Williamson 2:00 Yeah, I guess

Chris Williamson 2:01 so. Uh, so my, my first question is, why, why are you called Fat Tony when you're not fat?

Fat Tony 2:06 Oh, that old tired old question. Uh, I... When I was a kid, I was a fat kid. I got fat about the age of 14 to 16. Uh, kind of, it was a coping mechanism for what I was going through. Uh, so I, I kind of, you know, put on loads of weight as if it's, you know, as a barrier between other people and me because I, I kind of went through s-... A lot of, uh, there was sexual abuse at an earlier age. So I kind of just got fat as a protection. So, you know, it was one of those names that people called, kind of whispered behind your back, so I just kept it.

Chris Williamson 2:41 Yeah.

Fat Tony 2:41 You know, I lost all that weight at 16 and that was it.

Chris Williamson 2:43 It's interesting that two years of being fat, like-

Fat Tony 2:47 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 2:47 ... ages ago has bran-

Fat Tony 2:50 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 2:50 ... branded you for the rest of your life.

Fat Tony 2:51 I... You know, it's one of those things. People go, "Ugh, you should change your name." And it's like, "Why would I change my name? It's taken me around the world seven times." Do you know what I mean? It's, it's... I made a career out of that name. I'm not gonna change it. I think there was a, a year and a half in the '80s where I changed it to Phat, P-H-T. P-H-A-T.

Chris Williamson 3:08 Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Fat Tony 3:10 Well, I went all hip hop for a week, but, uh, yeah, no.

Chris Williamson 3:13 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 3:14 yeah. So, um, I first heard of you, as some of the people listening may have done, through this recent Mixmag documentary which has come out, which is absolutely phenomenal. And I know... I... Hey... I'm, I-

Fat Tony 3:24 Have you been living under a stone in Newcastle-

Chris Williamson 3:27 I... Look-

Fat Tony 3:27 ... with no wifi? (laughs)

Chris Williamson 3:28 There is... We, we are currently in the 1800s, and we're hoping to get the wheel and fire-

Fat Tony 3:34 Right.

Chris Williamson 3:34 ... and, and operating running water soon.

Fat Tony 3:36 That's fantastic, right?

Chris Williamson 3:36 Um, but I mean, in my defense, they referred to you... This is Mixmag referred to you as the most famous DJ you've never heard of.

Fat Tony 3:43 Yeah. The reason that was k-... That name came about was 'cause Seb, who works for Mixmag, who... He'd never heard of me, and he was from Cornwall. So, you know, a- and, and I actually said to him at the time, I was, "You know, the reason you've not heard of me is 'cause you, you're from Cornwall. You don't... You live in a f... Live under a stone in a, in like a wooden shack." You know what I mean? "You probably haven't even got a smartphone." Uh, but yeah, so, uh, that's why we called it that, 'cause I don't really like that. I like the fact that people haven't heard of me.

Chris Williamson 4:11 Mm-hmm.

Fat Tony 4:12 'Cause, you know, in my world, everybody's heard of me.

Chris Williamson 4:14 Well, I, I don't... It doesn't, it doesn't surprise me at all, but I think, you know, to touch on the way that industries work, especially nightlife, right? People-

Fat Tony 4:21 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 4:21 ... especially from outside of the country might look at the U- UK and just be like, "Oh my God, it's just a spec." It's a, it's a state in America, right?

Fat Tony 4:28 Totally.

Chris Williamson 4:28 But the... Especially with partying, because party culture's so big in the UK, it is... There are... You can go from here to Middlesbrough, f-... Where I'm originally, originally from-

Fat Tony 4:38 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 4:39 ... 45 miles away, and the industry's different. The music policies are different. The k- the type of events are different. The promoters-

Fat Tony 4:45 Exactly.

Chris Williamson 4:45 ... you know, there's no crossover. So it, it... The little microcosms, they, they don't surprise me, so.

Fat Tony 4:49 Yeah, I mean, you know, come on, I don't expect everybody to know who I am because it... You know, the, the industry... The, the, but the thing about it was, was because, you know, my career shifted in so many different areas throughout my career, um, and right now I've been... The last few years, I've been working within fashion and all of that stuff. So, you know, I, I kind of... The clubs... I got to this level where the clubs... I would still do clubs, but they don't pay the money that I could get from... That I can command from doing Vic- Like, you know, working for Victoria Beckham or Versace or any of those brands I work with.

Chris Williamson 5:24 Yeah.

Fat Tony 5:24 So I w... You know, the whole idea of calling it The, The Most Famous DJ You've Never Heard Of was 'cause I... It... You know, it, it was about tapping back into that other market-

Chris Williamson 5:33 Mm-hmm.

Fat Tony 5:33 ... that I hadn't been a part of for a while.

Chris Williamson 5:35 Yeah. I mean,

Chris Williamson 5:37 it looks like everyone that's listening will know the local DJ that has a couple of residencies a week or maybe, you know, three, four residencies a week at good events. And it looks great, but it's a fucking grind, you know? Like all of my buddies-

Fat Tony 5:50 Of course.

Chris Williamson 5:50 All of my buddies that are resident DJs working-

Fat Tony 5:52 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 5:52 ... three or four nights a week-

Fat Tony 5:53 I've done-

Chris Williamson 5:54 ... finishing 4:00 in the morning. You know, grinding it out. It's hard work.

Fat Tony 5:56 No, but... You know, I've done that for a lifetime. Do you get what I mean? And now I've got to this level of, of...... contentment within my career that I, I've learned that, uh, there's a really beautiful thing about saying no. And it's a really powerful thing to say no without explanation. I don't need to, I don't need to explain why I'm saying no anymore. And I, you know, I turn down so many different types of gigs because they're not where I wanna be right now. I don't need to be getting up at f- at 5:00 in the morning to go to work. Do you get what I mean? Don't get me wrong, that's really not me being, uh, obnoxious or taking it for granted for what I got. But you know what? I kind of, you know, I'd rather do bigger than, than smaller on some levels. Don't get me wr- I, I do so, so many different types of parties and, and events, and if they appeal to me, I'll do them. It doesn't matter how much money it is or whatever. But, you know, just got to that stage where I don't really do residencies anymore because I find that when you become a resident, you become a piece of furniture, and you get treated like furniture. You know, the special, the, the, the whole feeling of being special and, uh, and different is gone because you're, you're suddenly there every week. So people take you for granted. You, there's no amazement about it. Do you get what I mean?

Chris Williamson 7:11 I couldn't agree more.

Fat Tony 7:12 Like, you, you just go there and people go, "Oh, he's there again. Yeah. I heard him last week." And to me-

Chris Williamson 7:15 Well, you're part... It's like the bar staff, you know?

Fat Tony 7:17 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 7:17 You're just one of the bar staff, one of the glass collectors.

Fat Tony 7:19 Yeah, totally. And for me, I don't wanna be that anymore.

Chris Williamson 7:23 I can totally get that. There's a cool quote that I heard the other day about, uh, saying no, and it was that, um, "By saying no, you're only saying no to one

Chris Williamson 7:32 thing."

Fat Tony 7:32 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 7:33 "By saying yes, you are saying no to everything else."

Fat Tony 7:36 'Cause you know what I, I like, Chris, is like that. I will say yes to something (laughs) that I don't wanna do, and then I will get so much anxiety around that. That one thing, that one thing will keep me awake for three or four nights. Uh, I will fret and, and you know, I will get, work myself up to this place, right? And then what I'll do is the day before, I'll pull a sickie, or on the day, do you know what I mean? And I just think, I, who, you know-

Chris Williamson 7:59 Then you feel guilty.

Fat Tony 8:00 You feel like-

Chris Williamson 8:00 After you've felt anxious-

Fat Tony 8:01 You feel-

Chris Williamson 8:01 ... now you feel guilty.

Fat Tony 8:02 You feel y- like you've let yourself down, you're letting other people down. So there's something really simple. You know, as an addict, I've people pleased quite a lot throughout my life, and I don't need to do that today. Today, I need to please one person, that's myself. And if I'm happy, everybody else is happy.

Chris Williamson 8:15 Come on. That's so much more holistic. I like it.

Fat Tony 8:17 But, but you know, and with the film, you know, with that Mixmag film, I really thought no one was ever gonna watch it. I, I, you know, it, it started off as an interview for Mixmag. Um, and in, uh, in the interview I said, "Oh, you know, it's only taken you 35 years to catch up." And, uh, you know, 'cause th- the, everyone they've had on, they, well, the majority of people they've had on their covers in that 35 years are probably stacking shelves right now. Do you get what I mean? And whereas I've con- continued through and, you know, and then the boys at Mixmag, the interview came out, it got a really big, really wet- great reception. And then they said, "Oh, we really wanna do an online thing with you the next day." I was like, "Yeah, fine, let's do it." So we went off and did it, and then two days later they came back and they were like, "Oh, you know what? We wanna, we wanna do something bigger." And I was like, "Fine." You know, I really liked the guys. Seb and Louis, they were great, really good fun to work with. You know, I kinda just liked their cheekiness.

Chris Williamson 9:12 Mm-hmm.

Fat Tony 9:12 You know, 'cause each day they'd do an interview with me and then they, they'd throw these questions in at the end. Like, on one day, uh, Seb kind of, we'd done, we'd finished filming and then Seb was like, "Oh, just one last question." And I was like, "What?" And he'd be like, "What was Freddie Mercury like in bed?" And I was like, "I don't know. There were seven other people there." Do you know?

Chris Williamson 9:29 (laughs)

Fat Tony 9:30 Simple little banter like that, and that's kind of just like the magic of what the film came out like, you know? They, they brought it to my house to show me and, uh, and I was, you know, and I kind of was like, "Oh, I don't, I don't know if I wanna watch it." 'Cause I, you know, it's, it's, the, the thing about it is it's the truth, and the truth hurts. So it's really hard sometimes to watch the truth in black and white or on screen, or read it. And, uh, they, they showed me and it made me cry. It made, e- e- each time I watch it, there's parts in it that make me cry because, you know, it, it really, it, it hits a nerve. And they showed me the film and they were like... I started to cry and they were like, "Did you like it?" And I was like, "Yeah." They were like, "Is there anything you wanna change?" And I was like, (blows raspberry) "Probably 95% of it."

Chris Williamson 10:16 (laughs)

Fat Tony 10:17 But, (laughs) but it's your film and, and you know what? I, I respect it's your film and you know what? No, I don't wanna change it. I didn't wanna change anything, you know. Apa- apart from the end, I wanted them to big me up a little bit more. (laughs) In the, in, in the, uh, in the, uh, in the, in the, uh-

Chris Williamson 10:33 What he's doing now type thing.

Fat Tony 10:35 Yeah, 'cause they kinda just put a few things in and I was like, "No, you might as well stick it all in." And then I was like, "Actually no, don't stick it all in." Do you know what I mean? It doesn't need to all be there.

Chris Williamson 10:44 Yeah.

Fat Tony 10:44 Do you know what I mean? It was kind of one of those... So we just left it as it was. And you know what? It's had nearly three million views. Three-

Chris Williamson 10:50 It's insane. It's, it's-

Fat Tony 10:51 Three million.

Chris Williamson 10:52 ... phenomenal.

Fat Tony 10:53 It's fucking mental, man.

Chris Williamson 10:53 It's so good. So b- again, if you haven't seen it, it'll be linked in the show notes below. So once we've finished-

Fat Tony 10:59 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 11:00 Once you've finished listening to the podcast, go and check it out. It is absolutely amaze-... It's like the, one of the first long form Facebook videos I've seen with like a couple of million views as well, which-

Fat Tony 11:10 Hmm, yeah.

Chris Williamson 11:10 ... is just un- unbelievable. So-

Fat Tony 11:12 Yeah, I mean, blew me away.

Chris Williamson 11:14 ... the bottom line is that your story resonates with a lot of people. It's interesting and intriguing to a lot of people. So I wanna give you an opportunity to kind of delve into that and obviously-

Fat Tony 11:22 Yeah, go on. Yeah.

Chris Williamson 11:23 ... show, show people that haven't seen it what that story is and then go further with, with it as well. So where do we start with your career?

Fat Tony 11:31 Where do you want to start with my career? (laughs) Uh, at the beginning?

Chris Williamson 11:35 At, at the beginning. Yes, please.

Fat Tony 11:35 Well, you know, I, uh, I, I used to work on a door of a nightclub. I, I mean, I started going out at a really young age. Started going out at the age of 14, uh, to night clubs. Uh, got kicked out of school at 14, went to work in a place in Kings Road, which is in Chelsea, which at that time, people walked up and down all day long on Saturdays. It was like, it was like social media. So the likes of where I met Boy George, I met all... Most of my friends would be walking up and down that road, because punk had just come from that, from, from Kings Road, Chelsea. So it was the next beg- the next best thing, the next, next biggest thing. So ph- the photographers will always be there. It was like kind of the place to go and be photographed.... so I got a job working there, and then started hanging out with... M- all my friends, um, made new frien... Obviously made loads of... A whole new circle of friends, and we started going out clubbing, and I would, uh, you know, I would... I had a mouth. I could get what I wanted. I was the most obnoxious person you'll ever meet, and, you know, I was always in somebody's face. So people just gave me what I wanted, and so I had this job on this door of a club called the Lyce- at the Lyceum, where Lion King's playing at presently in London. It's a big theater, and I was working on that door, and each week, I would moan about the music for no reason. No reason at all, just moaned about it. And the guy, Rusty, who run the club, said to me, "Oh, if you can do better, bring your own tracks." And that was it. I kind of went with four records the next week, and, uh, within a month, I was in New York playing DJ-

Chris Williamson 13:08 How, how old were you at this point?

Fat Tony 13:10 I was, uh... At that point, I was 16. Yeah, 16, going on 17, yeah. And, uh, literally, that was it. Uh, three weeks down the line, I'd started a, a new night on a Tuesday with my friend, Stephen Lennard, at a club called the Wag Club, and we, we did a night called Total Fashion Victim, and it kind of just spiraled from there. You know, I kind of, within... Yeah, as I say, within a month, month and a half, I had a residency in New York at the Palladium, and it kind of just all went (imitates record scratching) .

Chris Williamson 13:38 So that-

Fat Tony 13:39 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 13:39 ... that first period there, from some fella on the door, some gu- lad on the door of a venue to-

Fat Tony 13:47 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 13:47 ... to being a guy with four records to having a residency in New York-

Fat Tony 13:51 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 13:51 ... that, I mean, that's the, that's the liftoff I think that's probably most dramatic, right? Like, if you actually look at it.

Fat Tony 13:57 Kinda, yeah. It kind of just... It was insa... You know, London was a much different place back then. It, you know, it, it had a, a nucleus of, of the we- which was the West End, which is Soho, and that was it. Ju- so that was the clubbing mecca area. So everybody knew each other. London was a really exciting, creative time. We didn't have social media, so everybody went out, and going out was where you met people, and, you know, um... So everybody knew each other, and, and everyone... A- at that point, London was, like, the place to be. Everyone in New York wanted to be in London, and, and then everyone... And all the clubs in New York wanted people from London. So it just kind of all fell into place. And, you know, yeah, it was... It literally happened so quickly. It's just, like, literally mad.

Chris Williamson 14:42 So you got flown to New York by who?

Fat Tony 14:43 And I would go to New York every two weeks.

Chris Williamson 14:45 By who?

Fat Tony 14:46 By, uh, by Steve Rubell, who owned, who used to own Studio 54. He, he went... They got rid of 54, and then they opened this new super club called Palladium. They o... And you had Schrager hou- Schrager-owned, like, AREA, this other club down the road and all of those clubs. So I kind of got in with all that lot. It was kind of really mad,

Fat Tony 15:05 you know.

Chris Williamson 15:05 Yeah, that's insan- What, what's it feel like as a 16-year-old flying to New York to play records having been-

Fat Tony 15:11 Well-

Chris Williamson 15:11 ... a DJ for a month?

Fat Tony 15:12 It, it was kind of, um... Actually, it was about, I was about 17 'cause I remember I went to New York the, uh, for my birthday, my 18th on Concorde, and then I got tasted on Concorde-

Chris Williamson 15:25 Ugh. (laughs)

Fat Tony 15:25 ... and then I'd stopped doing the Palladium for a few months, and then they wanted me back, and I said, "I'm only coming if you fly me on Concorde," and they actually flew me on Concorde, and I was just, like, thinking, "Oh, my God, you bunch of wankers." It was like, it's like... You know what I mean?

Chris Williamson 15:37 (laughs)

Fat Tony 15:37 But it was kind of just... You know what? It was kind of just that's what it was like in those days. Do you know? Suddenly... We didn't have superstar DJs before that. Do you get what I mean? And it was kinda just... It, it all, it was all about being in the s- in the right place at the right time with the biggest mouth.

Chris Williamson 15:54 Well, you were-

Fat Tony 15:55 Yep.

Chris Williamson 15:55 ... positioned based on the brand that London had.

Fat Tony 15:59 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 15:59 You were given an unfair advantage there, right? You had competitive advantage because you were-

Fat Tony 16:03 Totally.

Chris Williamson 16:03 ... the British DJ that's come over, and, you know, they can-

Fat Tony 16:07 One percent, uh-

Chris Williamson 16:08 Y- y- you don't have... There's no fact-checking, right? You can't-

Fat Tony 16:10 No, but-

Chris Williamson 16:10 ... go on your SoundCloud and say, "Actually, you're shit-"

Fat Tony 16:12 No.

Chris Williamson 16:13 "... and, and 12."

Fat Tony 16:14 Of course not. Of course not. They didn't give a shit 'cause, you know, all it wanted, all they wanted was the, the word London, and they wanted the na- the, the Wag Club or any of the other venues that I played at. So kind of that's how it was, you know? There were... You, you, you had n- nothing to fall back on apart from your la- the, your last set. Do you get what I mean? And, and I... Kinda, yeah, it was mad. And then of course-

Chris Williamson 16:35 So what were you, what were you playing?

Fat Tony 16:36 I was playing early house. Yeah, house. It kind of started off with things like Luther Vandross and, uh, you know, Chaka Khan and all of that, uh, stuff at that... was out at that time, and then kind of progressed slowly into we'd play old disco, and then some old disco went into early house, the early t- you know, Chicago stuff. And, um-

Chris Williamson 16:56 What, uh, what year are we talking here? (lips sputtering)

Fat Tony 16:59 Um, I should know this stuff. I'm writing a book. Uh, we're talking... Uh, so I was 18, so I'm th- I'm 55 now this year, so work it out yourself.

Chris Williamson 17:10 55, two twenty... Seven... Okay, so you're talking, like, n- uh, late '80s, early '90s, I guess?

Fat Tony 17:18 Yeah, early '90s.

Chris Williamson 17:18 Like-

Fat Tony 17:19 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 17:19 So, I mean, you know, for the people listening that are househeads, you know, that love Defected, uh, uh, and, and good, like, quality modern, I guess, modern house brands-

Fat Tony 17:30 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 17:30 ... um, that is seen as one of the glory periods, right, for the-

Fat Tony 17:35 Well, it was. It-

Chris Williamson 17:35 ... the development of house?

Fat Tony 17:36 You know, it totally was. You know, I used to go to Sound Factory. I used to go to Paradise Garage. I was r- uh, you know, a, a regular at that garage, and, you know, I had an amazing time. You know, and it's like, I was the first one... Me and my friend, Steve Swindells were the first person ever to bring Frankie Knuckles to London to get him to play. So we brought him over, and he played with us at this club called Jungle, which we did on a Monday. Um, yeah, so kind of by... You know, there was none of that whole, "My God, we got this person. We've got that person," at that point in time. That come a few years later when everything suddenly got a lot bigger. Do you get what I mean? At that point, we had Larry Levan, who was classed as a superstar DJ 'cause he played at Paradise Garage, you know, but it kind of, as you got to meet these people, you realized that they weren't superstars. They were just people having fun, taking a lot of drugs, and having a really good time.

Chris Williamson 18:25 ... yeah.

Fat Tony 18:25 Do you get what I mean? Like myself.

Chris Williamson 18:27 Yeah.

Fat Tony 18:28 You know, unlike th- most of those people, I didn't know when to stop.

Chris Williamson 18:32 Okay. So we've got, we've touched on one of the, uh, defining characteristics, I suppose, of your early DJing career.

Fat Tony 18:39 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 18:39 Um, what, can you remember your first drug?

Fat Tony 18:43 Uh, my first drug. Yeah. It was, my first thing, drug I ever took was cocaine poppers. I did popper, used to do poppers before that, you know ammonitrate.

Chris Williamson 18:52 Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Fat Tony 18:52 And then I kind of, I, I moved, I didn't even smoke at that point. I, I didn't smoke until I was 21. Uh, and then I remember the first time I ever took cocaine, I hated it. I actually hated the feeling. It made me feel really paranoid. Uh, and I thought, "I'm never doing that again." And then I, one night I was outside Heaven, which, which is in the movie, I tell you, in the film, that I, and I, I met with fr- uh, a gang of guys going into Heaven, and one of them happened to be Freddie Mercury, and, uh, hung out with that lot. And then we all went back to their house in Holland Park, and, um, and that, someone offered me cocaine, Freddie offered me a line of cocaine and I was like, "Oh, I don't do it. I don't like it." And of course did it straight away. And, uh, that was kind of it. That was my drug of choice. And, you know, uh, and, and then it, it, I didn't do it for a little while, f- I g- I remember I didn't do it for about, I think, about six, seven months I didn't go near it again. And then there was a real major, uh, heroin, uh, vibe thing going on in London, majority of people in London on that, on the club scene were really good, big smack heads. And so I was kind of anti that anyway, 'cause all my friends were taking that. Uh, so, you know, it was, it was inevitable that I was gonna end up being a junkie, you know.

Chris Williamson 20:08 Mm-hmm. It's, it's-

Fat Tony 20:09 It's in my blood.

Chris Williamson 20:09 Yeah, I get it. I get it. So cocaine obviously is a, a good drug for people that are partying a lot. And how often were you going out? Was it seven nights a week?

Fat Tony 20:18 Was, I was out seven nights a week.

Chris Williamson 20:18 Was, was life and partying just one, one-

Fat Tony 20:20 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 20:20 ... big sort of mesh?

Fat Tony 20:22 Well, I mean, you know, I, I kind of suddenly, I, I had no goals. I wasn't one of these people that thought, "Right, okay. In a year's time, I wanna be this, and now I wanna go on to progress to that." I never, I never had that. I was always, uh, you know, I, like I always have been, in the moment, and I kind of just, you know, I d- I just, I'd arrived. Clubbing was my life. Clubbing was everything. Suddenly, you know, I'd gone from being this inverted, you know, kind of shy, hiding behind my fat, hiding behind things, to actually being, discovering who I was. And, you know, so clubbing was, it was, it was, it become my life, it become a job, it become everything, you know. So I was out seven nights a week, and, you know, slowly but surely, though, out those seven nights, I, it would be three or four nights that I'd do drugs, and then it would be five or six nights that I did drugs, you know. It was never ever a problem. The first, I didn't, I never had a drug for, for the first 12 years. It wasn't a problem.

Chris Williamson 21:19 So until 28, sort of age?

Fat Tony 21:22 Mm-hmm. Yeah. 27-

Chris Williamson 21:25 27.

Fat Tony 21:25 ... it did become a problem.

Chris Williamson 21:26 And it-

Fat Tony 21:26 'Cause I, I remember getting, I remember on my 27th birthday, I remember saying to my mom, "I don't wanna live beyond 27." And my mom was like, "Why?" And I was just like, "I had no..." I just thought s- 27 was like kind of the end of the road type thing. And my mom was like, "Don't be so stupid."

Chris Williamson 21:40 (laughs)

Fat Tony 21:40 "27's o- one of the best years of your life." And I was just like, "No, no, no, no." And of course, when I got to 28, I was gutted. (laughs) For some, some reason, I was gutted that I didn't die when I was 27. Uh, but that, uh, you know, I gave it a good fucking shot, I can assure you.

Chris Williamson 21:53 (laughs)

Fat Tony 21:54 And I kind of just, and that's kind of when it all kind of just like the drug taking, the, the, the drug use become abuse. It went from use to abuse. And I was just started abusing drugs. I started, you know, I'd be up for four or five nights on the trot, you know.

Chris Williamson 22:11 So talking about the, the years before drug use became abuse-

Fat Tony 22:16 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 22:17 ... what was a typical week like? Talk, talk me through a typical week.

Fat Tony 22:20 So I would go out Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday night, you know, I would literally, at that point in time, I was still living in Battersea, which is where my mum and dad lived, which is just over s- the river, which is Central London. So it was, uh, I mean, you know, I had it, everything took 10 minutes, 20 minutes in to get into Soho from my house. It's like, uh, so I kind of just, I would be out, and, uh, 'cause I was living at home, I didn't ever all wanted to go home. Had all these illegal drinking clubs in Soho. So you would go to these illegal drinking clubs, like 79 one was called. And we had a club called the Pink Panther, which was a gay 24-hour legal drinking club. And you'd go, uh, about 3:00 in the morning, and by 6:00 AM it would've been raided by the police. (laughs) And you'd go out and you'd walk round the block and you'd go back in, and kind of that was just, that added to it. Everything was just like, you know, the thrill of the police raiding something. And, you know, so that would be like a Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday, then Thursday, Friday-

Chris Williamson 23:15 And that, and so you're not D- you're not DJing through the week, early on-

Fat Tony 23:18 No.

Chris Williamson 23:18 ... in the week, you're not-

Fat Tony 23:18 No. No, I'd DJ.

Chris Williamson 23:19 ... running events?

Fat Tony 23:19 I'd DJ on Tuesday. I was running my own night on Tues- at the Wag Club, uh, at that point in time. And then I was running Saturday nights at Wag Club as well. Uh, and at the time, well, the Wag Club was like the place to go. I mean, there would be a queue around like a, a, a three-hour waiting to get in, like, on a Saturday night. And we, we basically rode the door off our nuts, saying, "No, you can't come in. You can come in." We're just g- getting whatever we wanted off people.

Chris Williamson 23:45 "And you're a cunt, and you're a cunt, and you're a cunt."

Fat Tony 23:46 And then... Yeah. Basically. Yeah, totally like that.

Chris Williamson 23:48 Yeah.

Fat Tony 23:48 You know, and, uh, we'd say, "Sorry, you're, you're, you, you can't come in. You're off your nut." W- it was like, you know...

Chris Williamson 23:53 Coming from... Yeah, yeah.

Fat Tony 23:55 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 23:55 Cunt calling cat.

Fat Tony 23:56 And then totally. (laughs) And, uh, and taking cat.

Chris Williamson 24:00 Yeah.

Fat Tony 24:00 (laughs) But yeah, it was, it was, it w- it was a, a pretty, uh, you know, so that was Str- Saturdays. And then what happened was a new club opened called The Limelight, which was open till the big church. And in the '80s it was like the place, late '80s, early '90s, the place to go. And they basically brought me in, you know, yet again, I met with the owner called, a guy called Peter Gatien, and they had these clubs all over, they had one in New York, which was the place to go. They had this, and they had one in Atlanta, and they wanted me to open this one in London, and it was on Shaftesbury Avenue in a disused church. And I remember having a meeting with them saying, "You need to ha- you need to employ me."... and they were like, "Why?" And I said, "'Cause if you don't, I'll just annihilate your, your club," and it's like the bullshit that would come out of my mouth. And these guys were like, "Yeah, yeah," so they employed me.

Chris Williamson 24:43 (laughs)

Fat Tony 24:44 And, I mean, like, within a month of working for them, before it even opened, I'd become, like, the musical director at The Limelight. And I was, like, on a retainer of ridiculous amounts of money. And it was at that point, you know, I had, suddenly had all this money. I had two... Like, I had my own office. I was... You know, I, I'd just turned 18. You know, I was kind of, like, just running so many different things and, and little projects and scams going on in London and, you know, it kind of just... I got swept away with it. I got swept away with it. You know, I ha- I felt that I had to be there every night, I had to take in more drugs than everybody else, uh, and it kind of just... You know, that kind of just become who I was.

Chris Williamson 25:28 So-

Fat Tony 25:28 It was, it was fucking awful.

Chris Williamson 25:30 I... Speaking as someone who started Club Promotion in 2006, which is early by today's standards but late by yours, um, and me and my business partners started running events. And I've got a very similar story, without the, the hectic drug use and the, and the, the celebrities and Boy George and stuff like that, unless you count Geordie Shore. Um, and-

Fat Tony 25:54 No, you don't.

Chris Williamson 25:54 No, you don't? Okay. Um-

Fat Tony 25:56 (laughs) Unless you're in rehab.

Chris Williamson 25:57 Yeah, yeah. Um, but I understand, and I can speak from personal experience, about what it's like to be a young guy who finds himself having never been in a position of authority or, uh, being renowned, uh, potentially not being liked by people or, or having people need you. And that sense very quickly can become your identity, and you can wrap yourself around it. And what I found, slightly different to yours, um, me and my business partner started associating our, or at least me, not, not Darren, he's a lot more, was a lot more stable than me, uh, he's got two kids now-

Fat Tony 26:35 You mean was. (laughs)

Chris Williamson 26:35 ... he's, he's completely unstable now. He's got two, he's got two kids and two dogs, it's impossible for him.

Fat Tony 26:39 Outs posture.

Chris Williamson 26:40 Yeah. Oh, for sure. Um,

Chris Williamson 26:42 uh, what I did was I started associating my sense of, uh, self-worth and, um, well-being with the success of the business.

Fat Tony 26:50 Of course you do. Yeah.

Chris Williamson 26:51 It s- it seems like with you perhaps it was to do with the-

Fat Tony 26:54 Well-

Chris Williamson 26:54 ... depth of the partying, to do with the-

Fat Tony 26:56 Well, I kind of just-

Chris Williamson 26:56 ... level of renown.

Fat Tony 26:57 ... it, it had become more about ego, and the ego got so big, because, you know, people were blowing smoke up my ass. I couldn't do no wrong. I was having two nights a week, d-running two nights a week at The Limelight with my name on. My name was everywhere. I'd suddenly gone from being this fat obnoxious kid to being in the, in the Sunday papers. You know, I was suddenly in supplements, I was suddenly doing interviews and things. And it just, like, kind of got bigger and bigger and bigger, and I kind of, uh... You know, in those days, fashion had just come into play again, and I was, like, head showing Jean-Paul Gaultier. You know, I was wearing... Everybody wanted to, me to wear their clothes. It was insane. And, you know, over the course, you know, you, you'll g- you give something, those, that stuff to an 18-year-old, they don't know what to do with it.

Chris Williamson 27:38 He's gonna liven it up apparently, yeah.

Fat Tony 27:40 Exactly, and, um, like, you know, it's like, I'm, look, fucking pig in shit.

Chris Williamson 27:44 (laughs)

Fat Tony 27:44 You know, seriously. You know, and I had no tools to deal with that. Do you know what I mean? I kind of just... You know, I, the only way I could deal with it was by taking loads of drugs and, and riding it.

Chris Williamson 27:55 What did the dr- wha- how did the drugs help?

Fat Tony 27:58 Well, the kind of drugs kind of led me into this, like, false sense of, okay, g- they fed the ego.

Chris Williamson 28:03 Mm.

Fat Tony 28:04 They fed the ego. They kind of took away the fear. You know, I, R, you know, the fear of being found out. I've always suffered from imposter syndrome, you know, and I always had that fear of, "Oh my God, I'm gonna get seen, found out here." You know? Uh, and kind of, you know, the, the enjoyment of what I actually started off by doing, by DJing, you know, I kind of always, uh, when I look back on it, I always think because it was never, uh, a chosen job, and it was never a chosen path, I think that's why I kind of j- tried to destroy it so much. Do you get what I mean?

Chris Williamson 28:40 Mm-hmm.

Fat Tony 28:40 It kind of was like it wasn't something that I studied to do. I didn't set out to be that. I just kind of was like, "Okay, this is what I've fallen into."

Chris Williamson 28:49 I think certainly by the-

Fat Tony 28:51 George, yeah, m- uh, George says it quite nicely in the film, that when everybody else was on brand building, I was off partying. Everyone else was building a name for themselves, I was off just building parties. Do you know what I mean? And because I always had that fear of, uh, of... I, I, I always had a fear of success. It's really weird. The bigger I got, the more destructive I got. So, and I've always been like that. I'm still like it today, but today I kind of have it capped and I, I work a program around it. But, you know, so there'd be areas where suddenly my career's going like this, and then I'll be over here pouring paraffin on something t- t- to draw, to create a smoke screen so that you can't really see who I am-

Chris Williamson 29:31 Anyway.

Fat Tony 29:31 ... 'cause it's like, you know, it, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a weird one. And, you know, at that point in time, I got... Success was given to me on s- on such a g- a, a massive scale. I mean, you know, I was doing TV stuff, I had a show on Kiss. I was do... Oh, it was all there. It was all there. Yeah, and, you know, and of course, my mouth and the way I was destroyed that. Do you get what I mean? I would remember I used... Janet Street-Porter at that point was like head of BBC TV for youth, and she gave me, like, this job. She'd, like, she'd lined up all this presenting stuff for me, and she... As a part of the build-up to that, I'd have to go and, outside concerts and vox pop, where you stand outside concerts and say, "Hey, w- why'd you come to see so-and-so?" You know, all that rubbish. And I couldn't speak, I'd be so coked off my na. I couldn't speak, and she'd come and take the mic off me and then, like, just send me home. And, you know, and there were so many of those golden opportunities that I always thought, "Doesn't matter, I'll get it again." Do you get what I mean? It's kind of... The ego had taken over.

Chris Williamson 30:31 I suppose what-

Fat Tony 30:32 It's kind of thing.

Chris Williamson 30:32 What,

Chris Williamson 30:33 what the drugs do is they s-... stop you from being able to ask or do that introspection.

Fat Tony 30:40 Hm.

Chris Williamson 30:40 They don't allow you to ask those questions-

Fat Tony 30:42 No.

Chris Williamson 30:42 ... because they create a buffer between what you see inside and how you feel. And it means-

Fat Tony 30:48 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 30:48 ... that you don't ever have to worry about, "Well, hang on, maybe I should feel anxious, upset, regretful, whatever, about Janet Street-Porter just saying that I blew it again, or this not happening or that not happening or whatever." And obviously, you know, drugs are a pretty surefire way to stop you from ever having to feel feelings.

Fat Tony 31:07 Totally. It changes the way I felt. Like all drugs, you know, we, I, I would take drugs to change the way I felt because I was never happy within who I was. You know, I never got to that point where I just think, "Oh, you know what? Your shit stinks." Shit does. I never, ever got that feeling. I always had to co- counteract the way I was feeling by taking those drugs or drinking on it, because I always felt less than. I never felt that I deserved the, the success that I had because it wasn't a chosen success. I never felt that, um, I deserved to be where I was because it wasn't something I set out to do. It was something I fell on. Do you get what I mean? So therefore, I was, I, I kind of like cuckooed everybody else's nests.

Chris Williamson 31:51 Mm-hmm.

Fat Tony 31:51 You know?

Chris Williamson 31:52 Mm-hmm.

Fat Tony 31:52 And it was kind of weird. You know, with that drug of choice, that cocaine, it's kind of like... There was a really famous line that Mark Harmond once said was that "Cocaine will get, get you ready for the party, but it won't take you to the party." You know, so you'll spend 16 hours getting ready at home and you won't leave the flat. And it's true. You know, I... That's all it was like for me.

Fat Tony 32:11 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 32:12 Was there never a, a concern with money? Like, I know-

Fat Tony 32:15 No.

Chris Williamson 32:15 ... you were getting paid a lot, but it sounds like you were sniffing even more.

Fat Tony 32:18 Never. I, I, I, you know, I'd, I'd got myself to this position where I was getting paid s- you know, you got to remember, at that point in time, we all become superstars. After that, the Oakenfolds, my whole circle of friends, if you go back and look at all those guys, there was Danny Rampling, there was �... Paul Oakenfold, Sasha, all of that, all of these DJs suddenly became the biggest superstars. And we would be, I would be traveling up the motorway, down the motorway, playing all over the place for vast amounts of money. You know, and of course, I was on this massive retainer from the Limelight and the likes of that. So, it always went upwards. Do you get what I mean? And then suddenly, uh, you know, I, I was getting record deals. I bought a house in, in, uh, London, which was incredible. It's called the C- the Cottage, on Queen's Square. Very apt. And, uh, you know, I had suddenly, I had this wealth, you know. I had so much money. I had so much money.

Chris Williamson 33:14 And you couldn't sniff-

Fat Tony 33:15 And it just-

Chris Williamson 33:15 You weren't sniffing enough to, to make-

Fat Tony 33:16 No.

Chris Williamson 33:16 ... a dent in that?

Fat Tony 33:18 Uh, I was sniffing enough to make a considerable dent in it, but it always kept coming. So, whatever I spent, I knew I was getting again. Uh, I, it was always like, you know... I remember that house that I talked of, you know. When I left that house, I got, I l- I got thrown out of that, lost that house. Uh, and the day that I left it, I left with one mirror, uh, which was the mirror I used c- chopped lines on.

Chris Williamson 33:40 The mirror.

Fat Tony 33:40 Left everything else there. Just t- the TV, everything. And everyone was like, "Well, why are you not taking stuff with you?" I was like, "It's fine. I'll get it again." Do you know what I mean? And this kind of was always that throwaway lifestyle that kind of just brought me to my knees in the end.

Chris Williamson 33:56 Yeah. Very, very blasé. Again,

Chris Williamson 33:59 it w- it's weird, right? Because only with the benefit of hindsight do we look at that version of Tony with, uh, sympathy. Right? 'Cause-

Fat Tony 34:09 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 34:09 ... at the time, it must have been, "This guy's got it all sorted." Like, "He's got so much, he's getting free drugs. He's basically getting paid for being a dickhead. Like, he's g-" You know? And-

Fat Tony 34:20 Yeah, totally.

Chris Williamson 34:20 Uh, uh, it's what I think we need to see, or people need to try and look with a little bit more nuance, at young success. You know, you've-

Fat Tony 34:28 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 34:28 ... got DJs like Avicii. I'm friends with tons and tons of DJs that have-

Fat Tony 34:32 Bless Avicii. You know, Avicii, uh, you know, uh, another one. Do you know what I mean? Just couldn't cope with success, couldn't cope with the idiots. 'Cause what happens is when we get to that, that, that place, uh, we're not on our own. We've got t- 30 other dickheads with us. And those other 30 dickheads are telling you what you want to hear. They're, they're filling you up. You know, what, what happens is, you know, you suddenly realize that you're the party. And, and when you, when you get to that place where you think you're the party, everybody else thinks you're the party. So, you know, they fuel what your, your beliefs are and... Because you're a way and means for them to get more. And, you know, the realization is the day that you get clean is the day that you realize you're not the party. Do you get what I mean? And, and, you know, with people like Avicii and... They don't stand a chance. They didn't stand a chance. Do you get what I mean? It was there.

Chris Williamson 35:24 And

Chris Williamson 35:25 it, you know, it's difficult. It's hard to say to people, "You should feel sorry for this young superstar who's worth all this money, who's got all these record deals."

Fat Tony 35:35 But those, those people around him don't want... They didn't want him around them. Do you know, the, the, the, the, the yes people that are pulling the strings that, that, behind them that are supplying him with drugs. And the day that I remember speaking to him when he wanted to get clean and, you know, he started coming to meetings with us and stuff like that. And, you know, the, the, the powers that be behind that didn't want that.

Chris Williamson 35:54 Man, that's so sad.

Fat Tony 35:54 People don't want that.

Chris Williamson 35:56 So sad.

Fat Tony 35:56 Because they can't control you. They can no longer control you. You know, it's Amey written all over, all over again. You know, everybody pretends that they don't want you to be in that pos- that position, but they ca- they... You're in that position because they can control you in that position. Do you get what I mean?

Chris Williamson 36:12 Yeah.

Fat Tony 36:12 I would stop traveling. I wouldn't fly anywhere t- like, unless I knew there was gonna be b- what I wanted at the other end. And I remember one trip, I had to go to Hong Kong. And, um, it was a big money job. And I was like, "I'm not going." And I remember getting to the airport, and my manager was like, "You've got to get on the plane." And I was like, "I'm not fucking going nowhere." You know what I mean? And I'd been up for three nights. I mean, I stank as well. And it was like, it was, "You've got to get on that plane." And I was like, "I'm not going." And he literally made a phone call, a fake fucking phone call, to this guy, and he got this guy saying, "Yeah, I'll meet you off the airplane. I've got, I, I," you know, "I've got an eight for you." And I was talking to this guy, and I was like, "Okay, great."... got on the plane. The guy didn't even exist. It was somebody, one of his mates. So I go, I end up in Hong Kong, and I was there for four days, five days, and, um, I couldn't get any, I couldn't get my drug of choice. And all I could get was the Es. (laughs) So I remember doing that fucking untold Es. And then-

Chris Williamson 37:08 Hong Kong Es in the '90s must have been-

Fat Tony 37:10 Oh, Hong Kong Es.

Chris Williamson 37:10 ... absolute rocket fuel, yeah.

Fat Tony 37:12 Fucking mental.

Chris Williamson 37:13 (laughs)

Fat Tony 37:13 And, you know, and I ended up, I, I set fire to the hotel room.

Chris Williamson 37:17 Set fire?

Fat Tony 37:17 And I... Yeah. I, I woke up, I was smoking in my hotel room and set fire to the bed. And I woke up in hospital covered in iodine, bright orange iodine. They'd covered me from head to toe. And I was like, "Where am I?"

Chris Williamson 37:29 What the fuck? (laughs)

Fat Tony 37:29 And it's like... And, um, yeah, I tried to blame it on the light bulbs. I was like, "No, it must've been the light bulbs around the mirror." And I was like fucking smoking in bed. But I'd so, I'd literally so off my nut on Es. And after that, I was kind of just thought, "I'm not doing this again." Do you know what I mean? I'm not flying anywhere. I would go to the airport and just decide, "No, I'm going back to the dealer's house." So I become a loose cannon. So people stopped booking me, stopped flying me out to places. Which for somebody of me, like me, at that point in time was, was great because I just thought, "Right, I can go anywhere. Good, 'cause I can still earn that money here." Too bad.

Chris Williamson 38:04 And you wanted, you wanted the familiar mental-ness of home, not the-

Fat Tony 38:08 Of course.

Chris Williamson 38:08 ... unfamiliar mental-ness of abroad?

Fat Tony 38:10 Of course. You know, I had a triangle towards the end, which I always explain to people, uh, when I meet them. You know, I had a... There was a triangle of addiction. It was, you know, uh, it, uh, I would leave my house, I would go to the dealers. I was stuck at the dealers. I would leave the dealers, go to work. Go back to my house for two days, then go back to the dealers. That was the triangle. And it, then it was also alcohol, cocaine, cock. Cock, alcohol, cocaine. That was it. That was... That was three. I could never do one withou- one without the other two.

Chris Williamson 38:40 Yeah.

Fat Tony 38:40 And it was the same with, same as, as my pattern. You know, uh, traveling or, or going out of my comfort zone, and then ... But towards the end, it had to be set in stone. I needed to know where I was going and I needed to know that I was gonna get what I wanted.

Chris Williamson 38:55 Isn't it interesting that you're out of control-

Fat Tony 38:58 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 38:58 ... in, in some regards-

Fat Tony 39:00 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 39:00 ... but completely over, overly controlling of your own life in other regards?

Fat Tony 39:06 You know, I always say it was my shit, but, you know, it was sh-... My life was shit, but it was my shit. And it was like, you know, I, I ... you know, I could control the little that I had to control, and that's all I needed to control.

Chris Williamson 39:20 Mm-hmm.

Fat Tony 39:21 Anything beyond that, going to the airport, checking in, getting on a plane, fuck that. Why do I need to do that? Do you know what I mean? I'll just sell that, or that house can go, or this can go, that can go. And that was, that was always a much easier option, you know?

Chris Williamson 39:35 Mm-hmm.

Fat Tony 39:35 And I, I think towards the end of my using, I was only happy when I had no money because I knew I wasn't... I couldn't use. You know, I, I, uh... It would be a Wednesday and I couldn't even afford a packet of cigarettes. But I knew Thursday, I'd, I'd be working again. Do you get what I mean?

Chris Williamson 39:52 Mm-hmm.

Fat Tony 39:52 So for that, for that Wednesday, I would have... there would be some ease in this disease that enabled me to sleep all right and just think, "Okay," and I might say, "I don't need to leave the house today."

Chris Williamson 40:03 So you, you said that your drug of choice was cocaine.

Fat Tony 40:06 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 40:06 Was that pretty much predominantly what it was? Or...

Fat Tony 40:08 Oh, no, no, no, no, no. That's just... That was the drug of choice. You know, the, the drug of, of, of, uh, the... any other drug that I got my hands on. You know, I used, uh, temazepam, diazepams, Rohypnol. They were kind of like the pegging parts of the cocaine. So I would take cocaine, I would take downers to suppress the cocaine. I would drink alcohol to level the cocaine, and then I would take more. And then, of course, I discovered freebasing in crack, and then I discovered crystal meth. And, you know, it was just of the, the natural progression. So anyone... (laughs)

Chris Williamson 40:39 (laughs) That's such a...

Fat Tony 40:40 It was.

Chris Williamson 40:40 ... a natural trigger.

Fat Tony 40:41 It was a natural pro- It was a natural progression, you know. Suddenly, there'd be a new drug and someone, "Oh, you need to try this." And I'd be like, "Oh. Oh, I don't like it." And then boom, Bob's your uncle, I'm on that for two years. Do you get what I mean? It was kind of this, like, anything that could take me somewhere else, li- than being in here and being in here. Anything-

Chris Williamson 40:58 Was there anything that was too much for you? Anything that was too strong or that you said you didn't want to do?

Fat Tony 41:02 Crystal meth. The first time I did crystal meth, I just thought, "I'm never ever touching that again." The come down was so bad. I remember sitting on Ch- on Vauxhall Bridge wanting to throw myself in, uh, 'cause I lived right by it at that point. And, and I was like sit- sitting there and it was raining, and I remember just sitting there thinking, "I can't do this anymore. I can't do this anymore." You know? And then I thought, "Oh fuck, I ain't got any cigarettes." And I went, "All right." So I went home to get my cigarettes because I called... Once I got home, I sat, had a cigarette, and thought, "I'm not going back out again." But, you know, it was like, it was like if it had been two more minutes on that bridge, I probably would have jumped in. You know, because the come down was so severe. And I thought, "You know what? I'm never doing that again." And, and it wasn't the, never doing the drug again. I was never gonna come down again from it. So I, I had every intention of still smoking it, but I just thought if I leveled it and worked it out so that I didn't have to come down, like I didn't do with cocaine. You know, people just go, "Oh, James, you must have heavy come downs." Never had a come down. I was always on it. Do you get what I mean? You know, as I say to people, when I use, you, you know, I used and abused drugs for 28 years and there was never a point where I, I wasn't on drugs for 28 years. I was on some form of drug even when I slept. You know, and I, I, and, you know, I knew that I, you know, the last five years... I, I would sleep in... When I finally went to sleep, I would sleep in the recovery position 'cause I was that scared that I was gonna choke on my own vomit every night. It was so bizarre, so awful.

Chris Williamson 42:28 So that's getting us towards 27 now. 27, 28, I'm gonna guess?

Fat Tony 42:34 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 42:34 Yeah. And then that's when you said it really started to turn into a, like a spiral out of control.

Fat Tony 42:39 Well, well, you know, the crystal meth didn't come until a lot later.

Chris Williamson 42:42 Oh, okay. Okay, yeah.

Fat Tony 42:42 So the crystal meth was at the, the crystal meth was at the end of my drug using. Uh, about 27, 28, that kind of was like, you know, we'd gone through ecstasy, we'd gone back onto cocaine. Um, I'd moved to New York, I'd moved back from New York. I lived in New York for a year-... thinking that, okay, you know, because ecstasy was really good at that point in time in New York. So I thought, "Oh, I'll go and stay there," and just thought staying-

Chris Williamson 43:05 You're traveling around the world on an, uh, international drugs tour.

Fat Tony 43:09 Totally, 100%, because I could earn the money that I was getting, and I could command that money for those audiences and... Um, so yeah, kind of like, it, it kind of just gone from partying... The party just didn't stop. It, it kind of went from party to three-day binges, four-day binges, and then the psychosis started and kind of I kind of started to lose the plot a little and kind of would reel it back in and just think, "I can't do this." And I would end up in really dark situations and end up in places that no human being should ever end up. And I kind of just thought, used to think, "Okay, I got a real problem. This is a problem." So what I would do is, we'd just change dealer or I would change the situation, I would change the scenario, I would change circles of friends.

Fat Tony 43:57 But then w-

Chris Williamson 43:57 It's a proxy, it's a proxy for making progress, isn't it?

Fat Tony 44:00 Hmm.

Chris Williamson 44:00 It's, it's, it's an analogy, uh, uh, an analogous situation that works side by side with what could be moving forward, but it's not. It's just a, it's just different.

Fat Tony 44:10 Yeah, it's different. I used to call it hoovering out the Hoover 'cause, you know, it's like, it's like, you know, you stick, you, you, you stick the nozzle of the Hoover into the Hoover bag and all that's going round is the same old shit being regurgitated constantly. But you're, you feel that you're doing something about it. (laughs)

Chris Williamson 44:25 I, and people-

Fat Tony 44:26 I'm actually cleaning, but, you know-

Chris Williamson 44:28 People feel, people do that in all sorts of, all sorts of ways, right? You know, perfect example.

Fat Tony 44:32 What do you mean?

Chris Williamson 44:32 Let's go to another, um, area that I touch on a lot, which is productivity. A lot of people will talk about how they, they've got this new nootropic or "I've really worked out my, my morning caffeine timing." And I'm like, "Dude, you work with your phone on your desk next to your laptop." Like you're-

Fat Tony 44:48 No, no, right.

Chris Williamson 44:48 ... you're sweating the small stuff. Um, to talk about psychosis-

Fat Tony 44:51 I'm micro-dosing.

Chris Williamson 44:53 Yeah, yeah.

Fat Tony 44:53 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 44:53 Bro, you, you've got like, you've got Twitter open on your laptop.

Fat Tony 44:57 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 44:57 That is not where you're doing your work.

Chris Williamson 44:59 Um, I got a little story for you about Christophe. He supports Erik Prids at the moment. He's, um-

Fat Tony 45:04 Oh, okay. Yeah, yeah.

Chris Williamson 45:05 ... a DJ from the north of, north of England.

Fat Tony 45:07 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 45:07 I've known him for 10 years, phenomenal guy, and I had him on the podcast. And he, um-

Fat Tony 45:11 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 45:11 He was telling us about a story about when he was at the back end of his world tour, and he'd been on tour I think for around about six weeks, and he went to bed in a hotel on the Thursday night, South America somewhere.

Fat Tony 45:25 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 45:25 And he remembers looking at his calendar and thinking, "The next time that I get a bed, proper bed, is like Tuesday." It's Thursday-

Fat Tony 45:34 Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Chris Williamson 45:34 ... and he's got a gig, uh, goes straight from the gig to the airport, get on the plane, gets a-

Fat Tony 45:39 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 45:39 ... couple of hours sleep, do all this sort of stuff. So, um, that finishes up at the end of a, a, a long tour where he's kind of real intense and he doesn't have a tour manager either, which is, uh, uh, uh, an interesting one for him.

Fat Tony 45:51 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 45:51 So he plays this big show, has this big high, has all this energy, goes back to the hotel. It's him and room service on his own in a dark room, right? So he's got these-

Fat Tony 45:59 Definitely.

Chris Williamson 45:59 ... in- incredible crescendos of up and down, and then he gets back to Newcastle, uh, gets into his house, and essentially e- enters a, a state of psychosis that's, um, from everything that's happened over the last six weeks. And anyway, it's a morning time, about 5:00 in the morning, 6:00 in the morning, and he comes to and he describes this situation. He'd been watching like QVC late night TV, because that's the only thing that's on at 5:00 in the morning, and he'd realized that his hair was shit. So he went to Asda, and he comes to to find himself sat on the floor of the toiletries aisle in Asda, and he's got one of every hair product out on the floor, and he's just taking a little bit and slapping it on his head, and taking a little bit of this wax and slapping it on his head, and taking a bit of this gel-

Fat Tony 46:44 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 46:44 ... and slapping it on his head. And he comes to and he's like, "What am I, what, what am I, what am I doing here?

Chris Williamson 46:50 Uh, uh, not too sure." Stands up, gets a floret of broccoli, 48 dishwasher tablets, and just walks out. And it was, he was like... (laughs) And at that moment, I thought, "Do you know, I probably could do with speaking to somebody?" And I'm like, "Fucking hell."

Fat Tony 47:03 You know what?

Chris Williamson 47:03 And that is, that's just from sleep deprivation.

Fat Tony 47:06 Yeah. I mean, I used to st- stay up four or five days and I would be out and I remember there was this one s- one, one time I was in Liverpool Street Station, train station, and I was with all my friends. Uh, and I was like talking to people and, and then they were morphing into the wall. And I was like, and I was like running after people going, "Oh, did you see my mate!" And literally I was on my own and I don't know how I got there. I lived, I lived like, uh, in Brick Lane at that point, so Liverpool Street Station, obviously I'd traveled there to go home, but... And I was like talking to people and then cars would pull up and I was trying to get in cars and the cars weren't really there. It was insane and it went on and on and on. I managed to get home, and I remember being in my flat and I remember my boyfriend saying to me, "Tony, you do realize these people aren't here?" And I'm like, "What are you on about? I'm in the bed." I was in the living room having a party with like eight or nine of my friends, all dancing and, and literally having a blast. They weren't there. And I remember eating soup on the bed and like, he was like, "What are you doing?" I was like, "I'm eating." And he was like, "Tony, you realize this isn't real?" And he called an ambulance and the ambulance come and they were going to section me, and they took me to the hospital and they did all this and luckily, it's because I hadn't slept, I'd gone into this state, my brain had completely gone, but I c- it was at that moment, the two days afterwards, I realized why, how people get committed and how they get sectioned, where their minds go. My mind had gone. I'd lost my mind. And people were like, I was talking to people and they were like morphing, literally morphing into car seats. Fucking mental.

Chris Williamson 48:38 How?

Fat Tony 48:38 And that was just from sl- that was from being awake all that time and taking so much cocaine-

Chris Williamson 48:43 Wow.

Fat Tony 48:43 ... that my brain couldn't cope. My brain started... And that was kind of at those turning points of where life had d- had suddenly got a lot, lot, a lot, lot darker because, you know, I was losing it. I was losing the plot.

Chris Williamson 48:55 Even

Chris Williamson 48:56 the most balanced among us, I think-... are only five days of no sleep away from-

Fat Tony 49:03 Mm.

Chris Williamson 49:03 ... being completely mental.

Fat Tony 49:05 Insanity. No, of course.

Chris Williamson 49:05 From being that, that hobo on the street that shouts, that shouts words and has poo on the back of his shoe. Like that-

Fat Tony 49:11 100%

Chris Williamson 49:11 All of us are. And the, the thin line of sanity that all of us are, are kind of wobbling on, right?

Fat Tony 49:17 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 49:17 You're only a couple of travesties in your life away from something sending you down a spiral. And the, the good wor... The problem that... (sighs) And, and I feel so much, like, sympathy for, for the, the, that particular area of your career, because had you have had little breaks, had it have been like five years on, one year off, five years on, one year off, during that one year, you could have done some work, built up some resilience, you know, started to do-

Fat Tony 49:43 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 49:43 ... the introspection that you required to be able to then-

Fat Tony 49:45 But you know what? It... But, Chris, if I'd had a year off and I went back to, into what I was doing, I would have died.

Chris Williamson 49:51 Why?

Fat Tony 49:51 Because my body would, my body wouldn't have been able to take the wha- what I was doing again. Do you know what I mean? It's like literally, you know, my body had got so accustomed to what I was putting in it that it kind of built up a resilience, you know?

Chris Williamson 50:02 Mm-hmm.

Fat Tony 50:02 My liver and my kidneys and everything, you know, kind of become dependent on what I was doing. When you stop doing that stuff and you take time out, and, you know, addiction isn't something that you can switch off and switch on in that sense. So when I, if I, you know, say I got clean and I have a relapse, that relapse won't suddenly go back to one glass of wine and one line. It will go straight back to six grams of coke and smoking crystal meth all night where I left off. My body won't be able to take that, so my body will go into shock and shut down. And what happens is your organs start to shut down and the mi- the brain goes. That's what happens. It's what kills so many people. Lo- Let's look at Amy Winehouse, you know, her body couldn't take it. She started drinking again, and that's what happens. You know, it, people really underestimate the power of li- of w- what the, what alcohol and other drugs do to the body. Do you get what I mean? And kind of... So taking time out was never an option anyway, you know? (laughs)

Chris Williamson 50:57 It surprisingly, surprisingly actually was one of the best, safest things that you could have done was not taking a break. Yeah, that's-

Fat Tony 51:03 Totally, 100%.

Chris Williamson 51:04 That's interesting.

Fat Tony 51:05 You know, and I used to call it chemical scaffolding is what kept me... Because people were like, "How, how come you're still, uh, fucking, still up, still awake, still alive?" It's like, boom, it's chemical scaffolding, of course.

Chris Williamson 51:15 You've got these structures, right, that-

Fat Tony 51:16 Yeah. 100%.

Chris Williamson 51:16 ... that aren't part of you, but, but that you're relying on.

Fat Tony 51:18 100%.

Chris Williamson 51:18 Yeah, I, I totally get that. So, uh, before we move on to kind of recovery and, and the rest of this stuff-

Fat Tony 51:23 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 51:23 ... I wanted to ask what was one of the heaviest parties that you can remember going to? Might be the heaviest or just one that comes to mind.

Fat Tony 51:32 I kind of think every weekend when we did Trade. I used to be resident at a, a club called Trade, which was at Turnmills. It's a legendary club. And Trade was like, the club, one of the first places in the, in the country that opened at 3:00 AM and went on till midday. And it was, uh... Yeah, you probably would have been got that there, uh, Chris. No problem.

Chris Williamson 51:51 Yeah. Uh, proper Berghain style stuff, yeah.

Fat Tony 51:54 Anyway, there, there, it was... Uh, listen, uh, uh, Berghain had nothing on Trade, trust me. Trade was like the Mecca. It had like an alley called Muscle Alley where the Muscle Marys hung out. You had a heavy techno room with Tony De Vere and all those guys. We did Trade Lite. They had archways where you would queue up to buy your drugs, like proper dealer shops. It was insane. And Trade was like, you know, it was groundbreaking. It was revolutionary. It was like the place to go. So every weekend, kind of would be the heaviest party. Do you get what I mean?

Chris Williamson 52:24 And was that even, were you playing there or just out there?

Fat Tony 52:25 Yeah, I was resident there. Yeah.

Chris Williamson 52:27 Got you, got you.

Fat Tony 52:28 I had my own room, called Trade Lite, and there I would... You know, that's kind of where the Disco Jesus thing came from because we could turn s- seven records into a 12-hour set. Do you know what I mean? It was just like... But it was insane, you know. So, I mean, there was so many... And then I would leave there and go on all day Sunday, all night Sunday, to go Steve PM, and then all day Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday. So every weekend was kind of like that. And then I would... Then after that, there were other clubs that we started called Orange and Fire in London. We started all of those venues. They all come from my, my desire to take drugs, you know, um, and my friends' desire to take drugs. We couldn't stop. We would, so we would create these after-hour parties.

Chris Williamson 53:10 Speaking as someone who's been in the industry for a long time, and a lot of the people that are in it as well listening might get this sense, there's a lot of the things that you're talking about here that we now, in the industry nowadays, are trying to recreate, but it's like-

Fat Tony 53:25 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 53:25 It's the kiddies version, it's the nerfed version, right? So you were talking about, um, the party, the, uh, the late night drinking club that's open 24 hours, and then the police come and they shut it down, and then everyone kind of runs around the corner and then they come back.

Fat Tony 53:38 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 53:38 Like, there is secret parties that get done now, but it's, the, all that happens is you get issued it via text message at 7:00 PM on the night and it's-

Fat Tony 53:46 That's rave culture. That's rave culture.

Chris Williamson 53:48 But-

Fat Tony 53:48 We did that in the Acid House days.

Chris Williamson 53:49 But-

Fat Tony 53:49 You'd go to a phone box and have to call a number and they'd tell you where, what field to go to.

Chris Williamson 53:54 (laughs)

Fat Tony 53:54 "Okay, you've got to go 40 miles from here, right? When you get there, go to another phone box." And it was like, uh, you know, it was like being in Scooby-fucking-Doo.

Chris Williamson 54:02 (laughs)

Fat Tony 54:02 It was like trying to get to that phone box to find a field, and then you'd get there. You'd be in a field for two hours. The police would come and raid it. 40,000 people would be sent home. And that's kind of what it is. That's rave culture. We, you know, people long for that today.

Chris Williamson 54:15 Yeah, yeah.

Fat Tony 54:15 People long for the thrill of that today.

Chris Williamson 54:17 When you think, you look at this now and, you know, a lot of us, we, you have these sorts of parties, but it's, the ticket's fucking sold through Fat Sonar or TicketWeb or Fucking Ticket Arena, right?

Fat Tony 54:25 Exactly.

Chris Williamson 54:25 Like, it's not, it's not underground. It's just-

Fat Tony 54:27 Ah, right. Yeah, yeah.

Chris Williamson 54:28 Yeah, it's people, it's people trying to recreate-

Fat Tony 54:32 Of course they are.

Chris Williamson 54:32 ... that sense of the g- of the golden era, right? And it is, it's kind of... I know that it's tragic and it, it's, it's, it's-

Fat Tony 54:39 I mean, you know, ask, ask those people that are trying to create that to name four of the tracks from that time that they're trying to recreate and the artists' name, and I'm g- I guarantee you they don't know them. You know what I mean? They, they, they read about rave culture. They dream about rave culture. You know, there's something really amazing. You know, at the moment with this lockdown and, uh, the way we are, we're all put in our houses, something really creative and magical is going to come from this.... and really creative and magical because, you know, it's, it's times like this that some stuff starts to grow, our juices flow in our brains and we think, "Oh, I got a really good idea. Let's do this." And, you know, st- some really amazing stuff's gonna come from this.

Chris Williamson 55:20 I saw-

Fat Tony 55:21 And-

Chris Williamson 55:21 ... um, Jacky Mone, who's one of my good buddies-

Fat Tony 55:23 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 55:23 ... he's just been out with Roger Sanchez in Ibiza-

Fat Tony 55:25 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 55:25 ... producing, and, um, they're fucking, they're producing tracks at 130 BPM because-

Fat Tony 55:30 And they can fuck off.

Chris Williamson 55:31 (laughs) Yeah, okay. (laughs) Yeah. I'll tell, I'll pass that on.

Fat Tony 55:33 They can fuck right off.

Chris Williamson 55:34 I'll, I'll pass that onto him. But, um-

Fat Tony 55:36 You know.

Chris Williamson 55:36 ... you know, I, in six months, 12 months time, there is going to be some ridiculous EPs. There's going to be some amazing books.

Fat Tony 55:43 Yeah, there is. You know, there's gonna be, you know, all of that stuff's coming. You know, what's pissing me off the most about this is when I keep hearing these idiots, you know, I'm not s- going and saying any names, but there's certain DJs that are setting up petitions to say, "We should have a seven-day party." And it's like, "Fuck off, man." Do you understand that nightclubs and pubs are gonna be, like, the lowest of the lowest, right down there on the, on the, on, on the-

Chris Williamson 56:09 After gyms-

Fat Tony 56:10 ... e- e- e-

Chris Williamson 56:10 ... after cafes, after restaurants.

Fat Tony 56:12 It's all go... Schools and colleges and, and, and factories are gonna come first. There's gonna be a slow turnout. We ain't gonna see a nightclub open this year. No way will we see open a nightclub of, of Ministry of Sound or any of those big clubs. They're not gonna open till October, November, December. No way. This is not gonna go away. It's like Italy and all these places. They're... No club's gonna open in Italy until there's a vaccine. They've already said it. You know, why would they go down, get the, get it under the, the wraps and then say, "Okay, you can go out partying again. Oh, I know, you could all go back to the gym and start spreading this again."? It's not gonna happen. Use your head. There isn't gonna be no big V-E-J celebrations. There's not. What's gonna happen is c- other avenues are gonna come out of it and it's not gonna be live streaming from your bedroom, but it's gonna be other avenues.

Chris Williamson 57:00 Did you see-

Fat Tony 57:00 Do you get what I'm saying to you?

Chris Williamson 57:01 Did you see the Defective Live, Defected Live Festival?

Fat Tony 57:04 Yes, I did. Yeah, of course.

Chris Williamson 57:05 Now that, that is a shit hot way to do it. I know everyone's doing live streams. A lot of DJs are.

Fat Tony 57:10 Yeah, yeah.

Chris Williamson 57:10 You know, it, it's getting a bit old now, but, but-

Fat Tony 57:12 I've been doing it live. I mean, I did one y- the other week for The Evening Standard. I did one last week for Harvey Nichols, uh, live in my garden, and this Friday I'm doing a massive one, which is gonna get released tomorrow.

Chris Williamson 57:23 Oh.

Fat Tony 57:23 I'm doing Victoria Beckham's birthday party for the NHS live from, live from the stars at her-

Chris Williamson 57:28 A virtual bi- a virtual birthday party?

Fat Tony 57:30 Yeah, it's her birthday, she wants to invite all the key workers in the NHS to her birthday party via my garden. So I'm DJ for a two-hour set playing all of their favorite tracks, um, live from our garden for the NHS, and people can donate and they can also download the next day. They can download the playlist and they can also download the, the set. Uh, and all the money goes to the NHS and key workers.

Chris Williamson 57:55 That's class.

Fat Tony 57:55 So that's this Friday, and that, that's gonna go out, just from her Instagram feed alone, to 28 million. Uh, then from David B's, I think he's got something like 100-

Chris Williamson 58:07 100 mil?

Fat Tony 58:07 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 58:08 It must be 100 mil.

Fat Tony 58:08 So it's gonna go out, it's gonna go out by his as well.

Chris Williamson 58:10 If they get the, if they get the kids involved as well, I think the kids have probably got about 20 mil, 20 mil between them.

Fat Tony 58:14 Oh, they're all, they're, they're all gonna be involved 'cause they're all calling in to ask for tracks. So the whole thing's just gonna level up and level up and level up.

Chris Williamson 58:20 That's amazing, man.

Fat Tony 58:21 So we've been working on it for weeks, so they get, they're gonna release it tomorrow, which is Tuesday.

Chris Williamson 58:26 I love that.

Fat Tony 58:26 Um, the, the evi- the, The Evidence. They're gonna relea- like, the, the press release is going out tomorrow, so I'm really excited about that. I can't let you think... And then I'm doing one for British Vogue and that's it. I'm kind of just like, you know, this is my job, this is my career. I'm not a bedroom DJ. Do you know what I mean?

Chris Williamson 58:43 Right now-

Fat Tony 58:43 And I-

Chris Williamson 58:43 ... everyone's a bedroom... Well, you're a garden DJ.

Fat Tony 58:45 I am a garden DJ, yeah.

Chris Williamson 58:47 (laughs)

Fat Tony 58:47 But you know what? It's fine 'cause, you know, that's my career. I'm not, I'm not DJing to 42 people on a live feed like most people do. Do you get what I mean? This is Taylor.

Chris Williamson 58:57 Taylor. So for the people that are just listening, there is a very, very nice doggo that's just been brought into the middle of the screen. I'm not... I, I'm sorry, Finby, I, uh, you don't understand my love for dogs and now I- I'm not gonna be able to focus on anything except for-

Fat Tony 59:10 Taylor's amazing.

Chris Williamson 59:10 ... except for Taylor.

Fat Tony 59:12 She's... Taylor is, uh, Taylor's 14.

Chris Williamson 59:14 Wow.

Fat Tony 59:15 And, uh, she's the savior of all li- of all life. She's the best thing in the world.

Chris Williamson 59:19 Taylor is beautiful.

Fat Tony 59:19 She has such an amazing spirit and she's, she's... Like, everyone says that about their dogs, but trust me, Taylor's, Taylor has this magic about her. She's amazing.

Chris Williamson 59:28 Amazing. Well, I'm looking forward, looking forward to seeing her during the live stream. Um, I, the best thing that I've seen, l- avid listeners will know what I'm about to say.

Fat Tony 59:36 Gumpa.

Chris Williamson 59:36 Best thing I've seen so far in lockdown is my friend David Coverdale, who was supposed to be going away on a stag do to Istanbul, and his, his missus organized a virtual stag do where he, he had-

Fat Tony 59:46 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 59:46 ... all of his friends on Skype, video call.

Fat Tony 59:49 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 59:49 And he got dressed up, he had the inflatable hat and they were drinking and they did the full night that was a virtual stag do and I was like, "That's fucking sick." Um, before we go on to-

Fat Tony 59:58 But that's it. But, but that's it 'cause it's all about creativity and it's about, you know what? We make the best of what we got. And it's about... I think what people will kee- are forgetting in this whole lockdown of like, "I can't go out. I can't... Uh, I'm losing, I've lost 50 quid from not doing that job." Look at what you have got instead of what you haven't got. And you know what? People are moaning about being locked indoors. You're not locked indoors. You're at home safe. That's the difference. Do you get what I mean? It's, it's not about being like, "Oh, I can't do this. I can't do that." Just breathe, man.

Chris Williamson 1:00:29 It i-

Fat Tony 1:00:29 This is, this is a magical time.

Chris Williamson 1:00:31 It's highlighted to me the people that have a growth mindset and the people that don't. And the people that have that growth mindset, I'm seeing flourishing in this situation. And the people that don't, I'm seeing stagnating and even regressing.

Fat Tony 1:00:44 100%. 100%. You know, uh, I, s- it's true. It's real- it's fucking awful time, you know. I lost my, one of my best friends this morning, my friend Debbie. She passed away this morning with this.

Chris Williamson 1:00:53 I'm sorry to hear that.

Fat Tony 1:00:54 And her mum passed away on Sunday, last Sunday. So m- her sister Jane, who I grew up with, has lost not only a mum, but lost a sister in a week from this virus, and, and then you've got these idiots saying, "Oh, you know, it's not real. It's not happening," and, and blah, blah, blah. It's just like, you know what?

Chris Williamson 1:01:10 ... don't get me-

Fat Tony 1:01:10 Fuck off.

Chris Williamson 1:01:11 Don't get me started on David Icke and London Real. Please, don't, don't, don't.

Fat Tony 1:01:13 Yeah, oh, don't. Th- so many of them. There's so many of these dickheads, and it's just like, you know what? You tell that to the key workers, you tell that to the people that, uh, not been able to say goodbye to their own mums and sisters.

Chris Williamson 1:01:23 Yeah.

Fat Tony 1:01:23 You know, it's, it's, it's heartbreaking. It really is. It's, it's just, you know... And you know, and people have... The sad thing is people are buying into it. Like, what the fuck?

Chris Williamson 1:01:32 So there's this thing, uh, called compensatory control, right?

Fat Tony 1:01:36 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:01:36 It's, it's a, a, a psychological effect. In times of great uncertainty, people will turn to, uh, more spurious or more narrative-based solutions. So for instance, someone that's given an un- uh, uncertain medical diagnosis is more likely to see patterns in meaningless static on a TV.

Fat Tony 1:01:57 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:01:57 And the reason is that we would much sooner believe that the virus is going around because of the plan of some malign scientists, or the trans-humanist lizard people, whatever it might be, rather than just chance mutation. And that leads us to want to create these crazy conspiracies, because it gives us, it gives us a semblance, it personifies the, the virus as the, at the behest of someone, someone chose this to happen, not just-

Fat Tony 1:02:24 Of course, yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:02:24 ... it's fucking random chance, you know?

Fat Tony 1:02:26 Yeah, of course, of course.

Chris Williamson 1:02:27 Um, I wa- I want to ask, if you were to go back ... you might not even be able to remember this. If you go back and go across most of the, the big bits of your DJing career, and you needed to absolutely take the roof off with a track, what are some of the tracks that you would drop from, from back then?

Fat Tony 1:02:43 (inhales deeply) Oh, doh-do, doh-do, doh-do, doh-do. Uh-

Chris Williamson 1:02:47 It's like a- asking you to choose one of your favorite children or whatever.

Fat Tony 1:02:49 Well, you know, you, you know, it's, what it is, is what it's like, you know, when you ask someone what their favorite tracks are, and, and, you know, straight away, you, that person stops to think 'cause they think, "If I say this, it's gonna sound like I'm cheesy." If I say that... You know, there's, there's tracks throughout my career that are, that, you know, at the right time and the right place, y- you will take any roof off, you know. The, the old, all the classics, Robin S., who I love, his... You know, Alison Limerick, all of that stuff that I grew up with, that people think are cheese now, are major tracks. You know, Someday, CC Rogers, in the right place. There's so many amazing, amazing electric tracks of s- of ev- of every era, of every decade, that I just, like, go back to. You know, uh, uh, that's what so ... I'm blessed, so blessed. So many of my sets that I play these days i- t- j- especially for fashion, so if I'm, so I'm in-house DJ now for Versace, so when I do that stuff for, for Donatella, she wants all the old classics, so I can reel that stuff out. I had the most amazing time. You know, I couldn't, I could not pinpoint one track and say to you, "That's it." 'Cause there's so many.

Chris Williamson 1:03:54 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Fat Tony 1:03:55 There's so ma- so many. Do you get what I mean?

Chris Williamson 1:03:58 Mm-hmm.

Fat Tony 1:03:58 It's kind of just like... You know, I have my own personal favorites that I, I, are, (tapping) like tracks that mea- that mean so much to me. Do you get what I mean?

Chris Williamson 1:04:06 Mm-hmm.

Fat Tony 1:04:07 Um, that I wouldn't play out because I'd get too emotional.

Chris Williamson 1:04:10 Oh, wow. Yeah. I, um, I think Christophe Coszi, that I mentioned earlier on, I think he's got a couple of those where he struggles, he sometimes struggles to drop them because he gets too emotionally involved. Also, I've g- I'm gonna put it out there-

Fat Tony 1:04:22 It's, you know, it's the biggest drug. Music is the best and biggest drug I've ever taken. It has the ability to, to transport you to anywhere in the world, and, and, and to be with people that you're no longer w- are no longer with us. You close your eyes and you play that track, they're there. And that's, that's the magic of music. And you know, when I'm DJing, so, and I, I, and I'm very, and I get one of those sets where I can take people on a journey, it always ends in tears. Always.

Chris Williamson 1:04:49 (laughs) yeah.

Fat Tony 1:04:50 You know, 'cause I'll, I will play a track and I just think, "Oh." You know, like Frankie Knuckles' Tears. I mean, come on. You know, who can't lose it to something like that? Or Barry White, Ecstasy by Barry White. It's just like, you know, they, tha- those certain tracks can take me back to that mud-ridden field that I first heard them in. You know, the Sounds of Blackness, with The Pressure, will take me straight back to the Sound Factory with Frankie Knuckles, from the first time he ever played it. You know, there's so many things that, uh, that m- I have so much euphoric recall around so many different tracks, because I lived those tracks. And so I just n- uh, no one introduced me to them, I discovered them in a- with a- with a lot of other people at the right time. And you know, that's the beauty of it.

Chris Williamson 1:05:34 It's because it's more than the music, right? When you hear a track, and the people that are listening will know, the old tracks, I think this is why we have particular nostalgia and why-

Fat Tony 1:05:43 Can I just stop you there?

Chris Williamson 1:05:44 Yeah.

Fat Tony 1:05:44 They're not old tracks, Chris.

Chris Williamson 1:05:46 You know what I mean.

Fat Tony 1:05:46 Music doesn't get old.

Chris Williamson 1:05:47 No, my point is, tracks that have-

Fat Tony 1:05:49 People get old. People's thinking gets-

Chris Williamson 1:05:51 People get old. That's true. (laughs) Music, music stays with you.

Fat Tony 1:05:51 But you know what? Music doesn't get old. Music's timeless. The perfect track that is, is timeless, is not something that you go, "Oh, that's a really old track." Oh, that's a ... It's not old. Music's timeless.

Chris Williamson 1:06:01 Let me reframe. Tracks that have been with you-

Fat Tony 1:06:04 Please.

Chris Williamson 1:06:04 ... for a s- for a significant duration of time.

Fat Tony 1:06:06 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:06:06 Tracks that have been with you for years. Because what you get ... well, the first time that you hear a track, you hear the music and you hear the sounds and you get the emotional effect. But as you hear that track more and more, and you're experiencing something while that track is playing, that track, when it then gets played, is more than the