Modern WisdomFighting A Woman For $1M, Ukraine War & Gordon Ryan - Craig Jones
EVERY SPOKEN WORD
150 min read · 30,013 words- 0:00 – 6:20
Why Craig is Hated by BJJ
- CWChris Williamson
I have to say, I'm not that interested in Brazilian jiu-jitsu as the sport itself, kind of complex to work out what's going on. But I have been pretty captivated by what's happened over the last few months.
- CJCraig Jones
I mean, yeah, full-time trolling. That's my, that's my commitment at this point. You gotta, I mean, you're right, the sport is uninteresting. But it's full of weird characters that can provoke and make it interesting on a surface level. Some of the strangest, most serious people in the world, that take what they do very seriously. But for me, it's a bit weird, it's a bit gay, it's a bit easy to poke fun at. So that's my target in life.
- CWChris Williamson
Why do you think Brazilian jiu-jitsu attracts such a particular subset of people?
- CJCraig Jones
I mean, it's a good question. I think some of the people were bullied, so it's like an empowerment thing. But then when you climb the ranks and get to the top, it's meant to kill your ego, but it gives you a bit of power. And then these guys take it very seriously. Obviously, in the kimonos, they tie the belts, they've worked hard for it. So I love to provoke it. Also, it looks weird, and they're self-conscious about that. To me, I'd rather embrace that than push back on it.
- CWChris Williamson
Right. Because there's no way that you can roll around with another man for up to 45 minutes and it not be a little bit, like-
- CJCraig Jones
Homophobic.
- CWChris Williamson
... "What are we doing here?"
- CJCraig Jones
Yeah, 100%. So it's like everyone's not enjoyed that aspect of it. But me, I own it. I'm comfortable with it. You know? Like, we have to get used to having someone's balls in our face, you know? We're sweating in each other's mouths. It is what it is. We should laugh at it.
- CWChris Williamson
You're public enemy number one right now, kind of. What have you done, for the people that don't know what's happening right now in the world of grappling, what have you done?
- CJCraig Jones
Yeah, I mean, I have, I have a friend. I'll say a friend, it's an anonymous source. Or maybe I made, made the money through other means. Obviously, we've been going to Ukraine, we've gone to different countries where, uh, perhaps there's different sources of funding. I've been in Dubai, you know, like some go get a handbag, I come back with a few million, you know. Um, and I've used this money to basically support the sport. So I've decided to throw a tournament where we're gonna give away a million dollars to the two divisions, under 80 kilos, over 80 kilos. And that is 100 times more than sort of the other event that people consider the Olympics of our sport. And I've decided to throw it the same weekend to sort of make the athletes choose. Because it's, uh, what's, what's worth more, the prestige of a long-running tournament or money? And I think it's money. And it seems to be proving that, proving that way, basically.
- CWChris Williamson
Why is the sport of BJJ so poor? Why is everyone in it so broke?
- CJCraig Jones
I mean, for the same reason you don't watch it, I think. You know, like, I think most average fans rather watch MMA. It's a sport you only really watch if you participate in. Whereas, MMA is a sport that people enjoy to watch and have no interest in participating in it-
- CWChris Williamson
Hm.
- CJCraig Jones
... at all. So our audience is sort of capped. But the sport is, is growing, so there is some money in it. Like we make money off instructionals, seminars, um, if you have some, some funny jokes on Instagram, you know, you can make some money too. So the money's there, the audience is there. Sometimes they'll sell 10 to 15,000 seats at an arena.
- CWChris Williamson
Hm.
- CJCraig Jones
And obviously there's streaming rights. So there is money there. It just in, competition doesn't really funnel back to the athletes.
- CWChris Williamson
Why?
- CJCraig Jones
That's the question, right? They said that, uh, these events are non-profitable.
- CWChris Williamson
Who's they?
- CJCraig Jones
Who's they? Tournament organizers (laughs) for liability purposes.
- CWChris Williamson
Of which you are now, uh-
- CJCraig Jones
I'm now, I've now become the sleazy-
- CWChris Williamson
One of the cabal. (laughs)
- CJCraig Jones
(laughs) I've become the sleazy promoter. But my point will be to try and prove that you can do it and you can compensate the athletes. That'll be my point with this tournament.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah, so what do the existing tournament runners say? Like, "Daddy needs a new car?" Or...
- CJCraig Jones
Well, that's it. So I don't know, I don't, I mean, I don't think they're taking the money. I think it's just, uh, they use it in places that we don't need. Fireworks, you know, like, uh, the over-the-top production, expensive arenas when we're not there yet, those sort of things. Like, uh, I mean, like to rent a place like T-Mobile I believe is two million dollars.
- CWChris Williamson
Has someone done an event there? Is that where the next ADCC is?
- CJCraig Jones
That's where the next ADCC is.
- CWChris Williamson
Right.
- CJCraig Jones
So we went and booked the old ADCC venue for basically the same weekend. They'll still have the opportunity to watch the ADCC finals, it'll be Friday, Saturday. There'll be Saturday, Sunday. I wanted to do that for two reasons, so the, the fans could watch the finals on Sunday, and so I could enjoy Las Vegas on Saturday night.
- 6:20 – 12:09
Are Martial Arts Lame?
- CWChris Williamson
just going back to the sort of state of Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu. You don't need to be a fan of it to know that it's very popular, you know, it is kind of the bedrock that underlies much of UFC and much of UFC success, like wrestling, striking, BJJ, or like ground game grappling stuff. Is... Given that BJJ I think is the final, maybe wrestling as well, but it doesn't have quite the same heritage from a martial arts perspective. When you think martial arts, you're probably thinking like karate, maybe some sort of kickboxing style thing, and BJJ. Given that BJJ is probably the most prominent, popular one of that. Is it kind of making all martial arts seem a bit lame?
- CJCraig Jones
I think so. I think martial arts are kind of lame, you know what I mean? Like, they just are lame. But they are fun, you know? So like, I think Jiu-Jitsu's become a little more cool recently. It's a very cool sport. Luckily we've, uh, stolen some celebrities that enjoy participating in the sport. You know what I mean? Uh, that helps us a ton. And when we can get super fights with UFC guys, then s- that really helps us. But I think Jiu-Jitsu's cool 'cause it's a hobby you can do where you're not gonna take brain damage.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- CJCraig Jones
And I think that's the most fun about it. That's why a lot of like, uh, business execs, CEOs, obviously anonymous rich sources of funding enjoy the sport, because they don't want to take head trauma, but they like some form of combat sports.
- CWChris Williamson
And still need to be able to function mentally. But I don't want to feel like a pussy.
- CJCraig Jones
Exactly, yeah. They want the, they want to get some aggression out without real long term consequences, I guess, to the brain.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah. Just go back to explaining to me of, for people that don't know, the sort of mentality that is attracted to Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, especially in the upper echelons of the sport.
- CJCraig Jones
Ah. So, I mean, the biggest determining factor for success would probably be some level of autism. That's very important for a singular focus in this sport. Usually we can correlate social skills with your abilities in the sport. The higher those social skills are, the di- it diminishes really your ability to physically perform in Jiu-Jitsu. That's wasted in this sport. That's what you'd see if you were to talk to most people on the Jiu-Jitsu mats. But then really the great equalizer would be steroids. If you give these guys steroids, 'cause we don't test, don't have money to test, that actually gives these people with poor social skills a lot of confidence. And those are really the people that run the sport.
- CWChris Williamson
If you could give them a steroid that also allowed them to maintain eye contact, do you think that that would decrease their ability in the sport massively?
- CJCraig Jones
Well, I mean, that's why I regret the sunglasses being clear. Like, it would be good if they couldn't show that they were hiding eye contact, you know?
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- CJCraig Jones
That's a, that's a future, future endeavor.
- CWChris Williamson
It definitely seems to be, when you look from the outside, I spent, what, 90 minutes on Christmas day watching your guys' vlog around Japan.
- CJCraig Jones
Oh, yeah, yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Which I thought was fantastic. That was so much fun.
- CJCraig Jones
I know your favorite part.
- CWChris Williamson
Which bit?
- CJCraig Jones
The vending machine.
- CWChris Williamson
The vending machine? Do you wanna explain to people what you did, what you found in Japan?
- CJCraig Jones
Well, I mean, that's what I like to do when I'm traveling around. If I hear about something a bit weird, I'm gonna investigate. I consider that a bit of journalistic integrity, you know? And really a personal interest, this one was. Japan, there was always the thing that people sold used underwear in vending machines. I personally sold used underwear on OnlyFans. But in terms of, uh, using the vending machine to distribute those, I think that's probably a much more efficient system. And they had variations of those underwear. I can't remember actually what the variations were. One of them was period blood. That was the one I selected. But there were-
- CWChris Williamson
Obviously.
- CJCraig Jones
... varying ages of also those panties. And we found it in a basement of a five or six story sex store. So I mean, I start at the top, I work my way down, and we found it in the basement. I bought it thinking... I don't know what I was thinking, but I didn't think it would smell like it smelled. And it's still lasting
- NANarrator
Could you describe the smell?
- CJCraig Jones
Exactly as you'd anticipate, but a little bit stronger. But I, we opened it up outside, like I immediately smelled the ball, and it was sealed in plastic and it still smelled terrible. It like opened like a, like there was a toy inside. And then when we went outside and we took it out of the plastic, it was, it's, it had, had a radius around me. The smell-
- CWChris Williamson
Right.
- CJCraig Jones
... radiated. And the problem is, there was a terrorist attack in Japan, and there's not a lot of trash cans. So once I committed to opening this, it was very difficult to find... It took me 15 minutes to find somewhere to dispose of it. So I had to walk around Tokyo and like even my teammates were keeping their distance from me. Like that, that smelled so bad.
- CWChris Williamson
So that would actually be a really great solution for any Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu athlete who doesn't want to have to have any social contact or make eye contact with another person, to kind of have this permanently on them at all times as a safety perimeter.
- CJCraig Jones
That's true. That, that's actually a good idea, I think if you were a celebrity, to see how committed the fans were to getting a photo with you.
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs) Have you seen, there's a special kind of anti-mosquito, um, device, and you kind of turn it on, it lights a tiny little blue flame, and it makes this orb kind of like that. And you see these really committed mosquitoes, and they'll fly toward it, and they'll, and they'll really struggle and then they get super close and then they die. That would kind of be the equivalent.
- CJCraig Jones
That would work as well. That would work as well. I've always thought about this, this is probably a poor, a joke in very poor taste, right? Is like, I travel around on a train, and people try to kill me at every gym I go to. And they really want to roll with me no matter what. So like some gyms I go to, I'll be like, "Guys, like, uh, I've got staph, ringworm." And they're still committed. And I've always thought, "How committed are they? If I were to tell one of them I had HIV, would they still ask for the rounds?" That's the ultimate test. I think that would achieve a similar thing.
- 12:09 – 22:08
Craig’s NonProfit Tournament
- CWChris Williamson
back to your new competition. Why is it owned by a nonprofit?
- CJCraig Jones
Uh, jiu-jitsu doesn't make a profit. So, I figured why not make it a nonprofit. But (laughs) we're gonna turn it into... I mean, we're using the money to donate to charity or charitable endeavors. We showed you before the show-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- CJCraig Jones
... a little video.
- CWChris Williamson
Can you put it up now?
- NANarrator
(instrumental music plays) Guys, I've got a huge surprise for you today. We've got the second best grappler in the whole world here. His name is Craig Jones. (applause) Dad, you came back. Why did you leave me?
- CJCraig Jones
Obviously a very serious thing we're doing that. But yeah, travel show, traveling around, uh, helping sort of underprivileged kids through jiu-jitsu and stuff. Obviously there's some jokes in there, but we are really doing something good with that.
- CWChris Williamson
What are you... What, what are the causes that you're giving the money to?
- CJCraig Jones
Uh, well, anything in sort of like... We gave some of the athletes the choice. Ffion Davies was one of the first athletes that signed, and she wanted to donate a portion of the ticket sales, uh, to the people in Gaza. So, we're like, "Yep, go for it." So, like in terms of the tournament, we'll give some of them the choice, but also use it to fund some personal documentaries and stuff. Like obviously I've been traveling around to some crazy places, and also want to do some good. We're just in the Philippines. We were able to help some, uh, the kids eat Jollibee. They love Jollibee out there. Like a fast... It's a crazy fast food place where they have both fried chicken and spaghetti on the same plate. And you think-
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs) Sounds fantastic actually.
- CJCraig Jones
You think that'd be in America, that's-
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- CJCraig Jones
But I don't think it is.
- CWChris Williamson
Everyone wants to know where you got the money from. You keep on giving different answers to where you got the money from. Is the donor... Is the, the, the job of that is just keep, keep source of money anonymous?
- CJCraig Jones
Yeah. I mean, it's, it's like obviously there's going to be a lot of speculation. That's fine. But the guy donating, uh, he wants to remain anonymous because people are gonna bombard him asking him for money, asking him for different things, you know? He'd prefer to stay anonymous, and it allows me to be a little mysterious with the source of money, you know. Like obviously I've been to Ukraine, it's a good joke. Everyone thinks they're wasting American taxpayers over there. Maybe I went over there and found some, you know?
- CWChris Williamson
Hmm.
- CJCraig Jones
I don't know.
- CWChris Williamson
ADCC is the sort of incumbent prestigious competition, happens every two years. How did they fuck it so badly?
- CJCraig Jones
How? I mean, I don't know. I think just like... I think most people's heart is always in the right place. You know what I mean? The road to hell is paved with good intentions. I just think they wrongly assumed that they could maintain the same purse they've had since day one and continue it as the sport grew. And it's like, if we went from a basketball stadium with maybe 100 to 200 people there to now selling out 10,000 plus seat arenas, to knowing the streaming rights for this event are obviously gonna be a large figure too. Like, it doesn't make sense to me how the grapplers' pay cannot change, at least some token gesture amount. You know what I mean? Like, it was 10K in '99, it's 10K in 2024. Despite now it's a popular event. People fly all in from all over the world.
- CWChris Williamson
That's the... Whose purse? 10K?
- CJCraig Jones
That's the prize money to win four matches at ADCC.
- CWChris Williamson
And you get the same money to just show up?
- CJCraig Jones
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
And, and $1?
- CJCraig Jones
$1. We threw $1 in on top. I contributed that dollar personally, but I think-
- CWChris Williamson
So, that's a total of what? Like there's 32 fighters?
- CJCraig Jones
I threw $32 into the pool, you know?
- CWChris Williamson
That's very charitable of you. Very giving.
- CJCraig Jones
Generous and tax-deductible. No, I'm joking.
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- 22:08 – 27:41
Why Craig is Fighting a Female
- CJCraig Jones
I mean, obviously it is about purely sport and not entertainment, which is why I've decided to participate in the event and rebuild the battle of the sexes and decide to take on a six foot four, 250 pound, eleven time world champion female grappler of the sport.
- CWChris Williamson
Who's that?
- CJCraig Jones
Gabi Garcia.
- CWChris Williamson
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- CJCraig Jones
I mean, first and foremost, a lot of sexual tension. That would, I would say that's one of the main driving factors.
- CWChris Williamson
In both directions?
- CJCraig Jones
Sometimes. It depends what hour of the day it is. But definitely, yeah, I mean, she's just the most accomplished grappler, uh, female grappler ever. I mean, maybe, really if you combine sexes, maybe the most accomplished grappler ever. Me personally, just a dude that's never won anything. And I remember one event, a girl called her out, a floor grappling event at WNO, and she did some crazy interview afterwards where she's like, "Anyone calls me out, I'll take that match." I was like, "Will ya? Let's do it." And then we had this big build-up. We had, like, a arm wrestling match. She won the arm wrestling match. And now after two and a half years of foreplay, it's finally coming to fruition.
- CWChris Williamson
How strong was she in the arm wrestling match?
- CJCraig Jones
Stronger than me.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- CJCraig Jones
That's for sure. So I mean, we're gonna find out, you know?
- CWChris Williamson
And she is outside of your weight category. How much heavier is she than you?
- CJCraig Jones
I mean, she's real particular about her weight, so I better be careful here. But let's just say that's a, that's a large, strong, muscular woman, you know? I'm gonna do this match. So, I mean, many guys would be... would pay to wrestle around with her, you know?
- CWChris Williamson
You're doing it for free.
- CJCraig Jones
I'll do it for noble purposes. I'll do it for charity.
- CWChris Williamson
What is the rule set between you and Gabi?
- CJCraig Jones
We're gonna do three five-minute rounds, one-minute break in between. We changed the rules up for the event because we wanted to appeal to MMA audiences, because that's a broader portion of the general public. So it's like we want to still keep the jujitsu scoring kind of as it is, because grapplers don't like, especially only two months out, they don't like a big change. They don't want to have to pre- prepare for something crazy. So we'll do basically... In jujitsu, you score points. So like we'll have the judges on the side sort of score points along the traditional scoring systems. And if there's a four-point differential, we'll represent that as MMA scoring, like a 10-8. If it's a closer round, 10-9. We can take a point easy. And we're going to put it in a structure inspired by Karate Combat. Karate Combat have a square pit. They call it the pit. We're inspired by this because a lot of problems with other tournaments is elevated platform, guys either crash off the stage or like it's... It's actually pretty dangerous. Or if the mats are just on the ground, they crash into the judges' table. Some people think that's cool. It's dangerous for the athletes. So the Karate Combat guys really came up with this angled wall. There's nowhere to go. There's very few refereeing sort of interactions. So we're inspired by that. And we spent a lot of money to set up a rectangular, like a... basically a much bigger version of that. So we don't want to have-
- CWChris Williamson
What do you mean bigger? Like more space?
- CJCraig Jones
Like rectangle and 30 by 40. And we're... We're calling this the alley because first and foremost, I believe you only go into a back alley for two reasons. Fighting or fucking. Sometimes both.
- CWChris Williamson
Just to loop back to Gabi Garcia for a second. Is there an adjustment to your game plan that you need to do given that this is a MF?
- CJCraig Jones
I mean, I don't train much now, so I don't anticipate me training too hard for this one. Well, I mean, we'll see. We'll see. We'll see what happens. Like a lot of people out there really think like, "Oh, this big woman's going to take you out," and it's like, "We'll see."
- CWChris Williamson
I just... I... I have no idea about the capacity of a woman, a female BJJ fighter rated for strength. Like, if you make them the same size, make them similar sort of strength, uh, as a guy, uh, does a Q-shaped pelvis mean that they can get into rubber guard more efficient? I don't know. Do you know what I mean? Like are there things that girls can do structurally, biomechanically that guys can't?
- CJCraig Jones
Yeah. I mean, now you're concerning me with the thoughts of what she can do, you know. Um, obviously I have to subscribe to OnlyFans to really get into detail, but she doesn't look too flexible. But we will find out. We will-
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- CJCraig Jones
... test her flexibility come August 16th, 17th.
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- 27:41 – 31:23
Getting People to Compete
- CWChris Williamson
Okay, so you've got a huge, big rectangle alley.
- CJCraig Jones
The back alley. Yeah (laughs) .
- CWChris Williamson
Um, you... Rather than going for a... a... a trials-style selection process, you just used your sort of editorial ability to try and get people like-
- CJCraig Jones
To... To lure them in. Yeah. We had to... I mean, we... First and foremost, no one believes anything I say. So we had to kind of really emphasize that it was real. It was very hard to convince people that this was really happening. And that's where the Tacketts are good because those are just good kids that really... Like for them to be a part of it legitimizes the whole thing, you know? It's not... We're not... We didn't announce a celebrity first. We didn't announce like, uh, someone people-
- CWChris Williamson
Like a Luke Rockhold or whatever.
- CJCraig Jones
Yeah. We saved Rockhold for a little... a little bit later. But yeah, I mean, right now we've got the Tacketts, Nicky Ryan, Joseph Chen, Nicky Rod. We've got Luke Rockhold. Will. Yeah, William and Andrew Tackett. We've got Ffion Davies. We're trying to work on a super fight for her.
- CWChris Williamson
Hm.
- CJCraig Jones
Um, and that's it. But obviously I'm talking to everyone. We're working on-
- CWChris Williamson
What's your inbox like right now?
- CJCraig Jones
I mean, yeah, it's, uh, sadly more male grapplers than usual, you know? But it's... It's busy, man. I've been on the phone non-stop, hey. Just having to explain the rules, having to prove that it's real.
- CWChris Williamson
Hm.
- CJCraig Jones
But, I mean, it's funny when you throw a million dollars on the table, some people that didn't like you are suddenly like, "Brother, let's ƒpoha, let's talk."
- CWChris Williamson
Well, it's, uh... It's interesting to think how big of a deal this is in Brazilian jiu-jitsu. And I think this is what I meant before. The sport itself holds like limited interest to me. I once watched a... like some super fight match that lasted for 45 minutes and one of the guys gave up, uh, at the end.
- CJCraig Jones
Oh yeah, yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Um, but everybody knows drama. Everyone can get into, "Oh, this is like an incumbent thing. And then there's a new thing, and there's this game of rivalry, and... and you need to make a value judgment, which... Where do I want to be? Do I want to be here? Do I want to be there?" Like that's something that anybody can under- understand. Like that's a... a narrative about the Kardashians or whatever. And that makes it, I think, more compelling and it creates characters and it creates intrigue.
- CJCraig Jones
Yeah. I mean, I think it's good. I mean, competition is good. It is a com-
- CWChris Williamson
Even between competitions?
- CJCraig Jones
Exactly. I think it's really good. You know, it forces both events to have to do something more, contribute more. Obviously we have to... We have a lot to prove for this. There's a lot on the line. If it turns into Fyre Festival, I'm going into hiding in Kazakhstan or something. But-
- CWChris Williamson
Isn't Billy McFarland fighting at Karate Combat this week?
- CJCraig Jones
Is that this week? 13th of something, right?
- CWChris Williamson
Third Sunday. Yeah.
- CJCraig Jones
Yeah. I miss it.
- CWChris Williamson
I think the guy that founded Fyre Festival, someone told me this.
- CJCraig Jones
Oh, that's right. Yeah. He's meant to have a fight actually.
- CWChris Williamson
Is this true? Because someone told me this the other day and I was like-The guy that was in jail for Fyre Festival is fighting at Karate Combat on Thursday in Austin.
- CJCraig Jones
Well, I mean, believe it or not, that's actually our event organizer. I should know.
- CWChris Williamson
What do you mean?
- CJCraig Jones
He's a-
- CWChris Williamson
Billy Bob, Billy Bob. (laughs) He's the guy that funded it.
- CJCraig Jones
I'm sure, yeah.
- 31:23 – 37:09
Gordon Ryan’s Influence on the Sport
- CWChris Williamson
W- talk to me about sort of Gordon's role as the figurehead for the sport because he is super dominant, you know, sort of the Lewis Hamilton a couple of years ago in F1 where kind of wasn't... didn't really seem like that much of a, a competition. Um, does this help to make it more interesting?
- CJCraig Jones
Well, what I think is most funny about this, so Gordon, unquestionably best grappler in the world, had many health issues, disappeared. He comes and goes. He battles health issues, comes back, competes, beats everyone, for sure beats everyone. But he's a controversial figure, uh, just... I mean, he says crazy shit online. Like, he's got strong conservative, uh, political beliefs. But I mean, if you were to look at his Instagram, it's a Facebook dad Republican page. You know what I mean? That's the sort of stuff he's sharing nonstop. And he's, I would say, money obsessed and, uh, I would say he's kind of, um, I would say insecure. You know, I think anyone that takes offense to jokes that are like lighthearted, I find them a little insecure or like, uh, he bites. He bites all the time. And like, you would understand this, Americans take the baits. We roast each other. Like, I've said worse things to my friends and relatives than I've said about Gordon Ryan. But these guys take the bait. And that's the game for us, you know? We love throwing something out. If someone overreacts, that's what I live for. That's, that's fun to me. So it's like Gordon, in terms of this tournament, this tournament is the ultimate bait because we're talking about free market competition. It's good, according to his political beliefs. We're talking about money loves money. There's a hundred times m- more money in this. But he has to choose to stay with the old tournament or go to the tournament of someone he hates. And it's-
- CWChris Williamson
Does he hate you?
- CJCraig Jones
I think so. Yeah. I think so.
- CWChris Williamson
Do you hate him?
- CJCraig Jones
I don't hate him. I love the... I love that he exists, you know? I love that he exists. It's entertainment, you know? I mean, we used to train together. We used to... I wouldn't say we were friends. Like, we would train together. We wouldn't hang out after training or anything. So I think it's like we're training partners, weren't close friends.
- CWChris Williamson
What, uh, how much of jujitsu culture do you think is downstream from Gordon and John and kind of that culture that they've created?
- CJCraig Jones
Yeah, for sure, massive influence. Probably for the last seven-
- CWChris Williamson
(coughs)
- CJCraig Jones
... seven, eight years, massive influence on the sport. Um, and it's... they really broke new barriers by making NoGi more popular and more respected. Everyone used to do the Gi. And the Gi guys used to win most of the NoGi tournaments. And then Danaher's crew came along as kind of NoGi only guys, and started to win. And they started to use new techniques. So it created a really cool story. John is like some serial killer that got away with it. He has a interesting, like, he wears rash guards all the time. He has a weird personality, you know, but it's like captivating.
- CWChris Williamson
He's a philosophy professor originally or something, wasn't he?
- CJCraig Jones
Yes. Yeah. So he, he's got... I mean, obviously with all the university and college, he can teach well. He knows how to teach people, you know, and he under- he's coached GSP so he's a good coach. So like, you throw in all these factors and you create this empire that they have today. And like he even uses Japanese terminology, you know, it's like whether it's intentional or not, it's really good marketing. Really good marketing. So-
- CWChris Williamson
It lends sort of credibility and mystique a little bit to what's going on.
- CJCraig Jones
Yeah. He takes what people are already doing. He teaches in a really high level way, changes the name a little bit. Really good, really good marketing. And obviously his students back up that with results.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah. If you didn't have a guy that was super dominant, it would just be a bloke using weird terms that weren't effective.
- CJCraig Jones
Exactly. And that's the funny thing is like, he's like a chara- he's like your cheesy martial arts character that you like... His personality should be that of a guy that's not a good coach because most of the time guys like that, with that eccentric personality, he's got injuries so he never compete, he can't train. Like guys that like that in martial arts typically raise a lot of red flags, but his students produce good results. So it becomes this conundrum of like-
- CWChris Williamson
Like the legitimate Steven Seagal.
- CJCraig Jones
Exactly, yeah. He's... it's like a... he has a Steven Seagal mythology about him, but the results back it up.
- CWChris Williamson
What do you think Gordon will do? Because if you rip the arse out of everyone that's competitive at ADCC, the legitimacy of the ADCC competition then goes away.
- CJCraig Jones
He will s-
- CWChris Williamson
What's left to do?
- CJCraig Jones
He will still do ADCC.
- CWChris Williamson
Is that your, if you were to put money on the table, some of your big wads of cash? (laughs)
- CJCraig Jones
(laughs) Yeah. Yeah. That's not in my house anymore, for the record. Um, yeah, he will still do ADCC. It's, uh... it's funny, a lot of people like, uh, have loyalty to what they have accomplishments in. You know, like when NoGi started booming, a lot of the Gi guys were worried that their accomplishments were suddenly gonna be forgotten now, because if you create a new event with a new name-
- CWChris Williamson
Hmm.
- CJCraig Jones
... or prestigious titles, potentially 20 years people will be like, "What the fuck's that?" You know, like, so there's always gonna be pushback when something new comes in and steals... well, not steals, but it just gives athletes the choice.So, it's like there's always gonna be pushback. I mean, even Gordon's mom was in my inbox talking about how prestigious ADCC is. I know Garry Tonon's mom was commenting on some post, and I was just like, "I personally think your tournament's in trouble if your mom's defending it." You know what I mean?
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- CJCraig Jones
I'd kill my mom if she was defending my tournament online. I'd be like, "Hey, fucking tone it down. This... I'm 32 years on."
- CWChris Williamson
I can look after myself.
- CJCraig Jones
Yeah. (laughs)
- 37:09 – 43:34
Philosophy of Life-Changing Money
- CWChris Williamson
yeah, it's... It... I think it's, it's created a really fascinating story between the decision of this lineage. And it, it asks... It genuinely does. You might have to ask John for the answer. But it asks a interesting sort of philosophical question around, what does prestige and lineage actually mean? Like, w- what are people in this sport for when there is something very sort of real and tangible placed in front of them, which is, n- like, seven figures of cash?
- CJCraig Jones
Yeah. It's li- it's life-changing money. And like, uh, one of Gordon's arguments was that like... He's like, "A million dollars, that's easy to make." You know, he's like, "Do some seminars, sell some instructionals." But the reality is, is like, I mean, if you come from Brazil, uh, you do have a disadvantage in the markets in which we make the most money because you have a language barrier. Sometimes these guys have visa barriers. You know, like, Gordon grew up in New Jersey close to John Danaher. I'm not denying that he put in the work to get where he is, but that's lucky. That's lucky. For me, I grew up in Adelaide. I didn't even train with a black belt till purple belt. Like, I wasn't exposed. I just wasn't in the vicinity of a mind like John Danaher to shape me from a younger age. I had to work a lot of jobs, side hustles. So, on the way to get to where I am today. And if... I think about the Brazilians in the sport, they can win ADCC, but if they can't utilize a marketable style and they can't express themselves well in interviews, the idea of them making a million dollars is gonna be very difficult. And even if they grew up in sort of poorer areas, they're not gonna have access to be able to teach them business skills, marketing skills. Those things are much more difficult for them. And a million US dollars going back to Brazil is gonna go a long way. It's gonna change their family's lives. So, it is a tangible-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- CJCraig Jones
... life-changing amount of money for them. For Gordon, a million... It really is probably a million. In- instructional sell. But the amount of people that do that, not many. So, for him to criticize those guys for leaving the tournament that he's in, I think it's kind of a bit unfair to those grapplers that need money.
- CWChris Williamson
The issue that the Brazilians have with their communication barrier, their ability to use executive function is actually probably the same of a lot of the more autistic athletes that are from America.
- CJCraig Jones
That's true, yes.
- CWChris Williamson
That kind of levels the playing field in some way.
- CJCraig Jones
That's true. And I think obviously COVID vaccine has swayed the level of autisms in countries.
- CWChris Williamson
Uh-huh. Uh-huh.
- CJCraig Jones
You know? Like, that would be the argument there, but-
- CWChris Williamson
Do you know if the uptake in Brazil was higher or lower than usual? Because-
- CJCraig Jones
I kept giving it to me, but, uh, I couldn't increase it. So, I've capped out, that's why I'm retiring and going into promoting, you know?
- CWChris Williamson
Well, no, you're not. You're coming in. You're like some football manager that also wants to step... Like, play a coach who wants to step out onto the field of play against a woman.
- CJCraig Jones
Uh, yeah. Like, put... I mean, you run the tournament, you give yourself a favorable match. I think that's only fair-
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- CJCraig Jones
... you know? And really test the waters of equality. Uh, true equality is fighting a woman, I think. And that's why we call our foundation the Fair Fight Foundation. There's no fairer fight than that, I think.
- CWChris Williamson
What nationality is Gabi?
- CJCraig Jones
Brazilian.
- CWChris Williamson
Right. Okay, okay. So, this is a meeting of the...
- CJCraig Jones
Australia versus Brazil.
- CWChris Williamson
Oh, fuck yeah. Of course. Of course. Yeah, it's interesting to think about, um, how so many of the gains are accruing to just a couple of people at the very, very top of the sport. Obviously Gordon being one of them. What... Or who else is... Who o- Is there anyone else in the sport where you think, "Oh, they're pretty flushed. They're having it good"? Apart from you?
- CJCraig Jones
Yeah, I mean, like BJJ Fanatic's our main source of income, and a lot of guys on there make good money, you know, like myself included. But it would be... I don't know, I'm not that financially driven, so it's like I'd r- I mean, even accomplishment, like I pursued those accomplishments to get those gold medals, obviously didn't get them. But like, uh, I'd rather have a legacy on the sport that I changed it for the better for all the athletes. And I think if there's more money on the table, the matches will be more exciting. The guys will have more money to prepare for these matches, we'll reach a higher level in the sport. So, I think, like, it's best for everyone. Some of the fans might complain that they bought tickets to one event and the athletes will be at the other. Again, our money from the tickets is predominantly going to charities. So, it's like, if you've already got the flight, you've already got the hotel, you already got an ADCC ticket, keep the ADCC ticket, buy a ticket of ours, it's gonna go to charity. You're gonna be able to see the ADCC finals. If you wanted to watch both of our days, you could still watch the other tournament's finals. It's the best of both worlds. You're getting-
- CWChris Williamson
Hm.
- CJCraig Jones
... the biggest grappling weekend ever.
- CWChris Williamson
What's the... So, you've explained three five-minute rounds. Is that all?
- CJCraig Jones
And the final will be five fives.
- CWChris Williamson
Uh-huh. So, literally like UFC style rules?
- CJCraig Jones
Try and reflect, yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Uh, and how many, uh, rounds of fighting is there?
- CJCraig Jones
So, it'll be still... It'll be like, uh, 16 people per division. So, to win, four. Four matches to win.
- 43:34 – 51:15
What it Takes to Be a BJJ Champion
- CWChris Williamson
Do you think that the removal of steroids from the sport of Brazilian jiu-jitsu, for the people that don't know BJJ, is there any tested BJJ federation?
- CJCraig Jones
Uh, IBJJF does some testing, yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Okay.
- CJCraig Jones
I'm not too familiar with it though.
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- CJCraig Jones
How they do it. (laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
Um, would, would the removal of steroids make BJJ more or less interesting?
- CJCraig Jones
Um, I don't know. I mean, prior was, prior fighting championships was interesting, spectacle in Japan. There was no testing there. Uh, I think the testing, all it does is give you legitimate big sponsors, you know?
- CWChris Williamson
Because there's certain brands that don't want to be associated with a sport where everyone's on drugs.
- CJCraig Jones
Exactly, yeah. For me personally, I do have a local Texas TRT sponsorship. Sadly, when I post about it, no one believes I'm actually on steroids. That's the funny thing. No one believes anything I say and I'm-
- CWChris Williamson
You think that's like a, the sort of skinny fat build curse that-
- CJCraig Jones
Yeah, they're just like, "This guy, if he's on steroids they're not working, you know?" But-
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah. They must be duds. Get your money back.
- CJCraig Jones
I'm like, "Look at my blood pressure, brother, they're working."
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- CJCraig Jones
(laughs) Something's happening.
- CWChris Williamson
What was that thing? Where were you? Were you in Tokyo or... You were doing some sort of test, and I think you got one of the things that you won that weekend was highest blood pressure that the doctor-
- CJCraig Jones
Highest blood pressure, yeah. So, I mean, depends. I do have high blood pressure. I co- I should get that fixed. Rogan was actually concerned about my blood pressure, which has in turn made me more concerned. But yeah, I mean, the doctors take... Obviously, so your blood pressure could be high sometimes before a match 'cause you're a bit stressed out, a bit nervous. So, like-
- CWChris Williamson
Hmm.
- CJCraig Jones
... sometimes it's higher. Mine's probably too high, I should fix that, but...
- CWChris Williamson
Well, as a man with a famously short gas tank, what does it take to become a winner in this sport, given that you have your sort of parameters of, of limitation?
- CJCraig Jones
Yeah, that's, yeah. I mean, the gas tank is an issue, you know, but it's not an issue where there's enough financial compensation to fix it, I would argue. You know? Maybe a million dollars on the line, I'd do some cardio work.
- CWChris Williamson
Okay.
- CJCraig Jones
But generally speaking, man, I barely lift weights. These days, I barely have time to train. Um, I tell you, I don't take it too serious at all, you know?
- CWChris Williamson
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- CJCraig Jones
Well, I mean, I, I don't know. A bit, there's a bit of luck involved, you know? Strategy. I think it's a game of strategy, you know? Like, uh, I don't think... I think if you have the right strategy, you have the right skill set, and you pick the right opponents, and you pick the right rule sets, y- there's always a path to victory that doesn't involve working harder. And I think if you leverage your name at the top of the sport to make the rule set that most appeals to you, based on who the opponent is, to have that leverage is a huge factor in your success rate of the sport. So it allows me to work less and still have better results.
- CWChris Williamson
Do you think that... Well, it's, uh, that's interesting that BJJ seems to be a sport filled with people that are at least a little bit cerebral, that are interested in cognitive tasks and, and coming up with interesting strategies. I've seen some of the breakdowns on YouTube. It's like a unbelievable level of...
- CJCraig Jones
Autism?
- CWChris Williamson
That is being applied to the (laughs) question, uh, in hand. Why is everyone else not doing that?
- CJCraig Jones
I mean, good questions. A lot of people are scared to market themselves, scared to put themselves out there, you know? So like, I just think like, uh, pfff, you just like... People talk about that like, "Oh, I don't like doing social media and stuff," and it's like, I mean, no one does. You have to roll the dice sometimes. It's not gonna always come up good, you know? Like I've thrown some jokes out there that have fucking missed hard, you know?
- 51:15 – 56:35
Testing for Steroids in BJJ
- CJCraig Jones
When you said about drug testing, I kind of wanted to do it from a research perspective. I didn't wanna punish them, but I would love to know. Everyone says that it's the sport where everyone's juiced out of their minds. It'd be great to have anonymous drug testing where we see what they're taking
- NANarrator
before they go in.
- CWChris Williamson
It just aggregates...
- CJCraig Jones
Yeah, just from, like with, that's, are we gonna-
- CWChris Williamson
The average testosterone level is 1500.
- CJCraig Jones
Yeah, like we would have anonymous names, but it's like who had the highest? You know what I mean? Like what substances?
- CWChris Williamson
Like Athlete B was the one that came in with a 2,200 testosterone level.
- CJCraig Jones
Yeah. And I think they're pumping crazy amounts.
- CWChris Williamson
Talk to me, talk to me about that. Talk to me just like how aggressive do you think the use is of PEDs in BJJ?
- CJCraig Jones
I think it's pretty aggressive. I think, um, again, there's not great financial compensation from the events. But like in terms of instructional sales, selling seminars, and just they want the medals. They want the, they want the clout from the medals. So, there's no drug testing. Generally, people are gonna take some. I, myself, put out my stack. Obviously, I'm sponsored by a steroid, uh, or a TRT Anti-Aging Clinic in, uh, Testo- in Texas. But-
- CWChris Williamson
In testosterone. (laughs)
- CJCraig Jones
(laughs) Yeah. But I put my stack out because I also, like, just saying no doesn't really work with drugs. You know? It's like you just say no, kids take it anyway. I'd rather at least, to the next generation, let them know what I'm taking so that they don't, they don't imagine it's up here.
- CWChris Williamson
Hm.
- CJCraig Jones
And they don't take dangerous amounts. I at least wanna be like, "Well-"
- CWChris Williamson
Is it a rela- relatively sort of therapeutic dose that you take?
- CJCraig Jones
Yeah. So, 200 or 250 a week. We get spicy with some Anavar if a match is coming up, and then a real low dose Deca. But that's, that's really it. And I wanna, I don't want the kids or the next generation to speculate. I, I don't want them to think my li- I'm taking a gram a week or something. I think it's good to let them know what I'm taking so they can see, "Hey, well, he was able to-"
- CWChris Williamson
That could be the second-best in the world.
- CJCraig Jones
Yeah. I could be the second-best in the world on this fucking shitty little stack. You know? So, I think it's like a harm reduction strategy rather than a just say no.
- CWChris Williamson
Have you got any idea how much further people push the drug use?
- CJCraig Jones
Oh, yeah. I've been, I've been around athletes that pump some crazy levels. You know, like you got the ultimate bro science guys. Like, I remember one famous athlete, um, had... And it, I mean, it's more than who you think. You know, one, I know one famous athlete had some health issues and when the doctor said, "Hey, what are you taking?" They didn't know what they're taking. But their bro science that was administering it to him said, "Hey, I just look at this person every day, I know what they need." And I'm just like, "That's wild."
- CWChris Williamson
That's like some voodoo doctor, like telekinesis.
- CJCraig Jones
Yeah. Like, holds the stack back from him, doesn't tell him what he's giving him. It's like, uh... So there's a lot of crazy shit out there. When it's shrouded in secrecy and they're gonna do it anyway, they're left to find idiots to administer it, you know? So-
- CWChris Williamson
Hm.
- CJCraig Jones
... it's, it's almost like, uh-
- CWChris Williamson
It's very much the Wild West. There's kind of... Th- I guess this is like the meeting of the sort of more old school martial arts side stuff, which is this mystique and kind of magic and secret moves and stuff, with a new world of evidenced-based something. But, you know, the mystique and the magic is supposed to stay within the art form of the sport, and the evidenced-based stuff is supposed to stay within the blood work and the (laughs) testing and the pharmaceuticals. Like, you don't get it the other way around.
- CJCraig Jones
Yeah. I'm, I mean, I'm all for full transparency. You know, like I'm almost... I'm honest about every single thing I do, almost too honest. But because some of it comes across as joke, most people just don't believe me. (laughs) But like, most of the stuff I put out there is true.
- CWChris Williamson
What... Have there been any, uh, spicy substances that you've heard about fighters using before matches? Given that anything's on the table, maybe I need to smoke weed before I go out there. I don't think that ketamine would be a particularly useful-
- CJCraig Jones
Nose beers give you a little per- uh, perk up, you know?
- CWChris Williamson
Is it an... Is cocaine a performance enhancer when it comes to the sport of Brazilian jiu-jitsu?
- CJCraig Jones
I think it's a bit of a wake up, you know, like a strong shot of coffee, you know?
- 56:35 – 1:00:36
From Competitor to Organiser
- CWChris Williamson
you feel or do you think that you're going to feel a bit of a different kind of responsibility now being a event organizer in some regard? Is, does that come with any change in the way that you need to operate yourself?
- CJCraig Jones
I mean, that's a good question. I think basically running a nonprofit probably influences that (laughs) a little bit. But, uh... Well, I'm not really, I'm not really running. I'm the, just help them run the, the tournament. But, uh, yeah. I mean, for sure. I th- But I've already had these conversations with sponsors, you know, where sponsors have said to back down on certain things, and I've turned the money away. You know, like even with my instructional titles, I keep a controversial title because I'd rather be authentic. I'd rather have a smaller, more dedicated audience than a broader.
- CWChris Williamson
What are some of the names of the instructionals you've released?
- CJCraig Jones
All right. So, this one was spicy actually. So there's a move in jiu-jitsu called a false reap. It's a false reap. It's a type of way to enter a leg lock. Reaping, in the IBJJF, is an illegal move. It's something where you bring your leg across the knee, and it could potentially injure someone's knee. However, in the IBJJF, a lot of people, 'cause they wanna win, they'll do anything to win, they'll try to force the guy to make it look like they're doing an illegal move, and it's sort of they were reaped, but falsely. But I brought out an instructional on the false reap, and I called it False Reap Accusations. But it was really a strong... Uh, it was an instructional about the reap. I remember fanatics called me, and they said, "Bro, can we change the title on this one please?" And I said, "What about False Reap Allegations?" But I mean, it fits in with IBJJF, like, uh, DQ narrative. And I just thought it'd be funny. But we t- You gotta take a risk, you know? Like, someone's gotta die.
- CWChris Williamson
What was that one that you did about balls? Something to do with balls?
- CJCraig Jones
Oh, Balls to the Wall. Yeah. 'Cause when you're, when you're defending against wall wrestling, you're really slamming your balls. Well, I'm on TRT. Mine are pretty small, so they're not hitting the wall. But generally speaking, a clean athlete is gonna have some big balls.
- CWChris Williamson
What have you learned since being around the UFC at the top flight over the last few months?
- CJCraig Jones
I mean, j- obviously just the level of professionalism of the athletes, the teams. Uh, Vol- Volkanovski is unique just 'cause like, he's almost like a character that's too good to be true. Like, it's like you meet celebrities, and sometimes you're disappointed by who they are as people. Volkanovski is such a good person. He makes me disappointed in who I am as a person. You know, he's just like... Who he portrays himself as is exactly who he is. I guess that's probably true of me actually, so people won't be disappointed. But yeah, being around those guys, you realize, again, the financial compensation is much greater at the highest level. So, we're gonna have much more professional teams. Like, obviously most of those guys have managers. Most jiu-jitsu guys don't have managers, 'cause you call them up, you'd be like, "Hey, how'd you like 10% of $100?" You know? You're not getting a manager in jiu-jitsu. So, they have the whole team, striking coach, wrestling coach, grappling coach. They just have an o- orchestrated, coordinated effort towards one individual winning this next fight.
- CWChris Williamson
Nutrition, conditioning-
- CJCraig Jones
Every... Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... mindset, breath work, all of the stuff.
- CJCraig Jones
Yeah. All the things I don't do. (laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- CJCraig Jones
Yeah. So I mean, it is good to see what can be done at that level. And Volkanovski takes it so serious. It's so intense.
- CWChris Williamson
What do you think of him as an athlete?
- CJCraig Jones
Oh, incredible. Incredible. It's gonna be interesting to see what he does next. I want him to have a grappling match. I think we'll probably try and get him a grappling match on our event. But it might clash with something else that I can't say. But, um, not him fighting, but I wanna see him take a grappling match, 'cause I grappled with him and he's like... He's a tough round. So like, my dream would be to see him perform in a grappling competition. If he has to wait it out for a Topuria rematch or something like that, or if he wants to wait it out because he was knocked out for whatever reason, I think grappling match will keep his mind occupied.
- CWChris Williamson
That's a
- 1:00:36 – 1:08:35
MMA Compared to BJJ
- CWChris Williamson
good question. How well are you, a person who focuses on BJJ or, or, you know, Chen or, like, one of the Rods or whatever, how well would they be able to hold their own against some of the best UFC fighters just in grappling? Like, how good are, um, mixed martial artists-
- CJCraig Jones
At grappling?
- CWChris Williamson
... at just grappling? Yes.
- CJCraig Jones
I mean, they're r- Uh, they're really good. Like, I put Luke Rockhold in the tournament because he's really good. Like, I trained with him. That's like elite level grappler. And he, it...Hits a few things there. Obviously, former UFC champion. He's got a good following. He's a fun guy and he could surprise some people. Like, I wouldn't put a f- UFC fighter in the tournament unless I believe they had a chance to do something. And that's why I think Luke Rockhold's fascinating, because people are gonna be like, "Oh, he's not gonna do anything." And it's like, "I've trained with him. He's... He could shock some people." You know? In terms of MMA, though, MMA is so brutal. And it's like, it... it sort of... If you've never gone to an event live and sat close to the action, I think most people don't realize how brutal and savage it is. Oftentimes a guy gets knocked out and the camera's on the winner. Camera's not on the guy slumped in the corner. Like, I was there when Bryce Mitchell got knocked out, uh, by Josh Emmett. He was unconscious for a long, long, long time. You know? It's like, it's... it's kinda traumatic and it's really traumatic for the coaches too. Like, again, these guys are your friends. So it's like, I don't go lightly into joining a guy's camp, you know? Because it's like, "That is your friend."
- CWChris Williamson
Putting some of your heart into this guy's wellbeing.
- CJCraig Jones
Yeah. It's brutal. It's brutal. It's an unforgiving world and it's like, it... it sort of... If you've never gone to an event live and sat close to the action, I think most people don't realize how brutal and savage it is. Oftentimes a guy gets knocked out and the camera's on the winner. Camera's not on the guy slumped in the corner. Like, I was there when Bryce Mitchell got knocked out, uh, by Josh Emmett. He was unconscious for a long, long, long time. You know? It's like, it's... it's kinda traumatic and it's really traumatic for the coaches too. Like, again, these guys are your friends. So it's like, I don't go lightly into joining a guy's camp, you know? Because it's like, "That is your friend."
- CWChris Williamson
Putting some of your heart into this guy's wellbeing.
- CJCraig Jones
Yeah. It's brutal. It's brutal. It's an unforgiving world and it's like, it's traumatic for the fighters. It's traumatic for his friends and family, his coaches. Like, it's not just about winning and losing. It's about their health, wellbeing, psychological wellbeing. So it's like, it is a big thing to corner a guy. I didn't learn that until I did Ultimate Fighter. The first time I cornered... An MMA fight was on Ultimate Fighter. And we're talking about guys that are so broke. They got no money, they're not in the UFC and they're fighting... They're putting it all on the line, their health on the line, for really not much money. And that was really... You feel like... Obviously if one of my grapplers loses, that sucks. But generally speaking, he's not hurt.
- CWChris Williamson
Walk it off.
- CJCraig Jones
Yeah, they're out of there. So like, it's such an investment of energy and really emotion because you are so invested, not just in them winning for their own financial wellbeing, but just for their health. You're like, "Man, I've got to take this serious."
- CWChris Williamson
What is sitting in the corner of a UFC fight watching Volk and some guy, like, "Are you ready? Are you ready?" Like what's that moment like as you sort of watch them walk together?
- CJCraig Jones
Oh, I mean, there's so much anxiety. So much anxiety going in. And it's like, I'm the grappling coach, I'm not the striking coach. But, so like, phew, I'm keeping time. I'm holding the bucket when they're on their feet, you know? So... But like, I don't ful- I don't fully understand. I know what they've spoken about strategy-wise for the stand up portion. So I'm sorta like trying to see but I don't know a lot about striking at all. So I'm really trying to listen to them, see what they're saying, see what they're feeling. But it's... Yeah, it's re- it's real scary. And Volk's like... I was with Volk where it was like, he just kept doing things people didn't think he could do. You know what I mean? It's like shocking. You know, like what he did to Holloway in the third fight, getting out of Ortega's submissions and stuff like that. So that you build him up yourself as this invincible figure, but no one's invincible. If you're in the game long enough, you're gonna get cracked, you know? Like very few make it out and retire at the right time. And I'm not saying Volk should've retired, but I'm saying guys like Khabib got out before that happened to him. And you never know when it's gonna happen. But if you're in there long enough, it will happen. So it's like, it's both traumatic to see as a friend, but also it's like, it shocks you. You're like, "Oh, this guy was invincible."
- CWChris Williamson
I don't think about that. I never thought about the... You know, you think about how traumatic it is for the fighter. You realize that the friends and family are invested in that way. But I never thought about the corner man and what they need to do. They need to go away and have a week of emotional reflection on-
- CJCraig Jones
Imagine if you gave the wrong advice. Or imagine if you missed something, you didn't... The guy hit him with something like you didn't expect. You know? Like when I was preparing Volk for Islam, I was like looking for everything on the ground 'cause it's like, that guy's like a mythical figure in terms of wrestling and grappling. So it's like, you don't want to leave sorta no stone unturned. It's a lot of pressure.
- CWChris Williamson
There's a bunch of compilations on YouTube of bad corner advice from UFC. I think a video got released pretty recently that I watched, maybe like five things. One of them where y- you're four rounds up, you can coast in this round. And it's like, "No, you won't." You were like three down. Uh-
- CJCraig Jones
Yeah. No, that's the thing. So the corner men, the UFC come to you before and they're like, "Who's wearing the mic?" No one wants to wear the mic. You know what I mean?
- CWChris Williamson
Oh, wow.
- CJCraig Jones
'Cause it's like, "Hey if you say something-"
- CWChris Williamson
Stupid.
- CJCraig Jones
"...stupid, you're fucked." Like ima- like... You go in there-
- CWChris Williamson
Immortalized on the internet.
- CJCraig Jones
You're like, "Hey bro, you got two rounds to go," but it's already... You know what I mean? Like it's the last round. It's like, "Fuck, you don't want to... You don't want to wear the mic."
- CWChris Williamson
Be that guy.
- CJCraig Jones
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- CJCraig Jones
They always want to give the mic to the guy that goes in the cage, but most of the time a lot of guys will be like, "Nah, fuck it, give it to this guy."
- CWChris Williamson
Right. Yeah, the guy that's not speaking as much. Oh, interesting. And you get to choose that? You get to choose who has the mic?
- CJCraig Jones
Yeah, they choose the... The staff try to force you to give it to the right guy 'cause they kinda know who's the head coach, you know?
- CWChris Williamson
And what... Yeah, what's going on.
- CJCraig Jones
But like, you try to give it to like me or the wrestling coach or something. You know what I mean? Like-
- 1:08:35 – 1:16:45
Being on the Frontline of War
- CWChris Williamson
the last few months we've been chatting and I've been saying, "Yo, man, where you at?" Like, "Let's catch up," and blah, blah. And I think you were in town for two days, and then left. Where have you been over the last four months?
- CJCraig Jones
Oh my God. Where have I been? I've been to Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Uzbekistan, Poland, Ukraine, Mexico, Philippines, Thailand, Indonesia, Australia, UAE. I think that's it.
- CWChris Williamson
Where do you want to start?
- CJCraig Jones
Well, I mean, I guess probably most interesting place is probably Ukraine. So, I sort of set up a seminar out there to raise money for the soldiers. 'Cause the soldiers do get weapons, they do get support. The US has provided weapons. Europe has provided, uh, weapons as well. But a lot of the basic equipment, they kind of have to self fund. You know? Like, even, like, to get to the front line is a treacherous road. And that's just Soviet construction, you know? So, even if they want to get away from the front line for their break period, like driving the cars... Like, when we drove to the front line, man, potholes everywhere. Destroyed cars everywhere, just from the roads alone. So, even to get the cars to be able to come and go from the front, getting to the front line is hard. They have to purchase most of their own military equipment, especially if they want good equipment. And you would want good equipment with what's at stake there. So, I really wanted to go out there, support those guys, and really see kind of what was going on out there. And the seminar blew up. Probably bad choice of words, but yeah, we had 250 people at the seminar, so it was, like, widely supported. It was awesome. And we donated all the money to Ukrainian soldiers. And then one of the guys, Roman, I remember he commented on the seminar poster and he said, "Uh, obviously a seminar for the soldiers is great, but what about the guys on the front line?" And I was like, "I'll come to the front line. I'll come to the front line with you." And he said, "I can't promise we'll survive, but we'll have a good time." And that's exactly the sort of thing I live for. That's where, that's where basically we ended up. I don't know if I can say the name of the village, but it was a village that Russians had taken and Ukraine has liberated, taken back. Obviously very, very damaged. And we got to go, I think, seven kilometers from the Russian offensive. So it's pretty close. Kiev has Patriot defense missiles, so you are somewhat safe. Obviously it's, it's a war zone, but city life goes on. Has to go on, you know? A lot... So I got... Man, I got so many trolls messaging me, uh, after this Ukraine stuff. Like saying, "Oh, look, you're out there drinking beers and shit." And it's like, yeah, I mean, like even drinking-
- CWChris Williamson
Well, they were suggesting that there isn't actually a kinetic war going on.
- CJCraig Jones
Yeah. And it's like, guys, it's, it's the front line, you know what I mean? Obviously that's where the heaviest shit's gonna be happening. There's impacts all across Ukraine, but really, the front line's where the action's at. Russia has missiles that can reach far. They have planes that can reach far. But again, the target is gaining land, progressing into Ukraine.
- CWChris Williamson
What was that like? What... Talk to me about the atmosphere on the ground in Ukraine.
- CJCraig Jones
I mean, the craziest thing to me was... And it's like, if you think about it, it makes sense that life goes on, you know? But really it's the attitude that, that the Ukrainians have towards the situation. So it's like, the first night I landed... So we, we... You can't obviously fly in. The air space is dangerous there. So we, uh, took the car ride and got to the hotel. I slept through about like 44 missiles... Or no, 31 missiles were shot at Kiev, and it had been 44 days since it had been such a, a big attack. So I woke up, people messaging me like, "You okay?" I was like, "Fuck, I slept through it, eh? I had the earplugs in." But that's when I realized the scope of it. Another serious thing was when a missile was shot down. So a hypersonic missile was shot down, and this was so close to the hotel I was at that the whole building shook. And I thought that was a missile landing, but that was it being shot down. They took me to the missile site after where part of it had, uh, landed in the ground. I was just like, even that just part of the missile did so much damage to the land there. But what's crazy to me is the guy... Life goes on, you know? Like sometimes... Like after that, the building shook, people are still trying to go in the gym and work out. They're just like, "Oh, fuck it." That's like, that's, that's life out here, you know? We're not gonna let, we're not gonna let Putin change how we live our lives. And like even in the villages and stuff, like there's shelling going on. There's old guys out there still gardening and stuff. It's that, it's that energy that's like so like crazy. Like I saw... When I was there, one of those, uh, missiles damaged a coffee shop window. It was like completely blown out. The lady's still in there serving coffee, just like ............................ moves like that.But, I mean, it's intense. You got the air siren out, you hear the air sirens go. And it's like, there's a plane in the sky heading your direction. Missiles are being loaded to launch. There's kamikaze drones coming your way. And you're like, "Do you go to the bunker or do you not go to the bunker?"
- CWChris Williamson
And did you go to the bunker?
- CJCraig Jones
No, I was... It was mostly out of laziness. (laughs) But yeah, I didn't go. I figured, "Hey, fuck it. If it happens, it happens." But, I, I wanted to do what they did. Like, those guys were like, "Pfft, we're not changing our lives 'cause of..." That's exactly what Putin... I say Putin, not all of Russia, but I say Putin, that's what they want. They want people to, to live in fear. They want it to affect their daily lives. And that's... Their goal is to not let it affect them, even if there are consequences.
- CWChris Williamson
I think when you see archive footage of London during the Blitz and, "Keep calm and carry on," stiff upper lip stuff, you almost think about that as being a mentality of a bygone era. That, you know, this was when humans were almost built differently. Mad, it was, you know, 80 years ago. Uh, and yet, it seems that during a war zone, that same mentality just continues, even now, 2024.
- CJCraig Jones
Yeah, I mean, it has to. You just... It has to reemerge, you know? Like, I mean, it is kind of like really a World War II feel, feel over there. Like, it's doing trench warfare.
Episode duration: 2:02:04
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