EVERY SPOKEN WORD
125 min read · 24,504 words- 0:00 – 0:29
Intro
- PHPhrost
Especially if you have a slightly higher than normal testosterone count, you're gonna think that you can fight, whether or not you actually can. That they have in their head this idea that, "I can Goku my way out of this shit. I can power up based on anger and Red Bull," or whatever, "and win a fight," when the difference between somebody who's trained for, like, just six months, it's astronomical the amount of ability that's there just from learning the basics. (wind blows)
- CWChris Williamson
Frost, welcome to the show.
- PHPhrost
Hey, great to be here. This is awesome.
- 0:29 – 10:14
The Will Smith Oscars Slap
- PHPhrost
- CWChris Williamson
Uh, it's been a few days now. We've had enough time for the lessons from Will Smith slapping Chris Rock to percolate around the internet and their philosophical significance to embed themselves. What were your thoughts when you first saw that, and what are your thoughts now, having had time to reflect on it?
- PHPhrost
Well, like every single human being that is even moderately aware of this, I had my own take on this, and it was, it was basically this, uh, you know, I, I thought Will Smith could hit harder, you know? (laughs) But, you know, (laughs) it's not the most earnest, uh, way of looking at that. Yeah, I mean, he's, I don't think he was trying to knock Chris Rock's head off. Um, a lot of people, given what we do, uh, at Bullshito, thought, "Oh, uh, it was a work. It was staged. It was, you know, s- the Oscars. Nobody cares about 'em anymore, and now we're all talking about it." So, um, I don't have strong opinions one way or another. But yeah, I, I was just like, "Hey, action movies aren't reality. Let's just take this opportunity to remind you of that." So...
- CWChris Williamson
Interesting one. I... On balance, I don't think that it's a fake event. I don't think it makes as much sense. I'd heard that if it came about through whatever your equivalent of Ofcom regulators are, that they'd staged this and that in the script for it had been swear words, that they would be... the Oscars would be looked at being slapped with, like, a $10 million fine. That if you were to purposefully... You can accidentally say swear words, and it's about quarter of a million. I was with a guy from Hollywood yesterday on, uh-
- PHPhrost
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
... the Drinkin' Bros podcast. If you script a swear word in and it's not supposed to be there, it's some insane fee.
- PHPhrost
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Some ridiculous... So I think that that seems unlikely. And just the reactions from pretty much everyone, including... If you play the tape a bit longer and you see Chris try to get himself kind of back to what's happening-
- PHPhrost
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... I'm aware he's an actor, and, uh, that's their job, but dude, that's some... Uh, he should've got an Oscar for how he dealt with the slap if that slap was a fake slap.
- PHPhrost
Yeah, no, I mean, he wa- he was great, and, uh, he looked like he was in some... You know, you could see the wheels turning in his head. He was, like, trying to come up with, "Well, how do I spin this and keep the show going?" And, and yeah, and somebody was like, uh, "Well, uh, he... I'm surprised he didn't get knocked out." And my joke, you know, was that, "Oh, well, his... He's not Chris Paper, after all." So...
- CWChris Williamson
Oh, very funny. Very, very, very funny.
- PHPhrost
Yeah, like-
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah, well-
- PHPhrost
I go for low hanging fruit.
- CWChris Williamson
You, you've seen those S- Slapfighting Championships, right?
- PHPhrost
Yes, those are awesome.
- CWChris Williamson
Dude.
- PHPhrost
I, I love that.
- CWChris Williamson
Is there a concern... Is there a concern with that slapfighting stuff that we're basically watching people get CTE live on, uh, like, on air for our entertainment?
- PHPhrost
I mean, that would be the same thing for the UFC. Like, any, you know, any blows to the head-
- CWChris Williamson
At least you're allowed to defend yourself.
- PHPhrost
Yes, but I mean, come on. The... Statistically, you're gonna get hit, you know, probably fewer times, uh, in a slap competition than you are in the UFC.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah, that's fair.
- PHPhrost
So...
- CWChris Williamson
That's fair. So yeah, what about, what about your reflections on why... whether Will should've reacted, shouldn't have reacted?
- PHPhrost
Um, there's a whole spectrum of things that we could talk about with that, with regards to, um, a man's role in, you know, defending the honor of his wife and, uh, oh man, that you throw out the, uh, throw out the, the buzz phrase, uh, toxic masculinity, whether that plays a role in it. Um, I mean, obviously, Jada s- Jada Pinkett-Smith can defend herself. Uh, she, she doesn't have, she doesn't lack for a, uh, uh, you know, the, the wits or the charm or... you know, the ability to, to be sassy back in a situation like that. So, I don't know. Um, I honestly couldn't even say what I would do in the same situation. I know, uh, uh, it would be a step between what he did, what Will Smith did, and what Ted Cruz didn't do when somebody made fun of his wife, which is-
- CWChris Williamson
What's the Ted Cruz situation?
- PHPhrost
Oh, uh, Ted Cruz, um, did... In the campaign in, uh, 2016, Donald Trump basically just straight up called Ted Cruz's wife ugly. He's like, "Oh, you're married to an ugly woman," or some, some sort of thing, and then Ted Cruz's response to that was to help him campaign. So...
- CWChris Williamson
Ah. Okay. Yeah, that's, that's a s-
- 10:14 – 14:15
Real-life Fight Club
- CWChris Williamson
are pretty experienced with this, right? Your background is in fighting, calling out fighting, understanding what-
- PHPhrost
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... it means to sort of deploy physical aggression, and then also having online confrontations that sometimes end up in physical aggression.
- PHPhrost
Yeah, yeah. Bullshito, um, got its start, uh, oh God, back in 2002, almost two decades now. This May it'll be 20 years. Um, where it was just a bunch of, uh, MMA athletes, martial artists, et cetera, people that are actively training, calling out the people that are just pretending to be tough guys, uh, in the martial arts. Now we've long since expanded our topic range to more things. But back then it, it, you know, this was what we were into and this is what seemed to be important, because a lot of people had no idea what a real fight looked like, so they had grown up in the '80s with the, you know, karate, kung fu action films-
- CWChris Williamson
Steven Seagal.
- PHPhrost
... and all the ridiculous... Yeah, uh, especially Steven Seagal. That, I've got a great story with that, I, I never refrain from sharing, uh, about Steven Seagal. Um, uh, but anyway, the, um... So the internet was, was new, online communities were new. Uh, this was before people were using the word meme even. Uh, there were, there was no Facebook, there wasn't even a Myspace back then. So we all kind of got together and just hashed out our own little, uh, space where we could call these people out without being, you know, censored or shut down or anything like that. And, uh, it got interesting, and, um, I, I ended up being (laughs) the, uh, like accidentally Tyler Durden in a sense because we'd have all these people like, "Yeah, well you're full of shit, you're full of shit." And we'd have these things where people would get together and just beat the crap out of each other, and we called them throwdowns, so-
- CWChris Williamson
What's it like running a real life fight club?
- PHPhrost
Oh, it, it was awesome. Uh, I don't think... There were no, surprisingly there were no real serious legal consequences for the, the fighting because it was within a martial arts context. I mean, these people are sparring, it's all, you know, consensual. Yeah, we may not have had exactly, uh, like waivers or things signed or anybody got like a, like clearance from their doctor or anything official 'cause it wasn't sanctioned. But, you know, guys would show up and, you know, throw blows, and it was, it was cool. It was like, you know, the golden era of the internet as far as I'm concerned. Uh...
- CWChris Williamson
But this was the same time that Kimbo Slice would've probably-
- PHPhrost
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
... been doing backyard brawls for money.
- PHPhrost
Yes. Yeah, Kimbo Slice. Uh, he kinda did his own thing and think it was, like, Florida was where he was comin' up. And the guys are just throwing punches and stuff, and we just, we're doin' the same thing, but those, those guys are sorta unregulated, uh, like, not even associated with martial arts at all. They were just dudes that were, uh, like, bangin'. It was-
- CWChris Williamson
They were people that wanted to throw hands-
- PHPhrost
... it was, it was cool or somethin'.
- CWChris Williamson
I th- it feels like you guys were trying to stress test different martial arts, uh, and/or how much bullshit, uh, certain people were talking about online.
- PHPhrost
Exactly. We would invite people to come and come to the events. Most of them were friendly, but every now and then there was some dude who's like, "Yeah, man, uh, you guys, I don't like the, what you been saying about us. Uh, you know, we're, we're gonna show up and, and..." Uh, you know, it, it was usually hilarious. Uh, we had, we had a couple of famous incidents that are, uh, still on the internet somewhere. Uh, like, one guy showed up at a, um, to, to fight a dude in, in a, like a back field somewhere. He actually left, like, a comic convention 'cause he was dressed up in cosplay and showed up to fight The dude, the, the guy from Bullshit-o was in cosplay, and showed up to fight the guy in, in the backyard of somebody's house. And, um, they beat his ass dressed as, like, Lupin or some anime character. And so, yeah, that, that dude's awesome. Um, and then we've had one guy that... Uh, we had a whole crew of people drive, like, 16 hours from, uh, was it Austin to DC to Maryland area or something, to fight a dude in a parking lot, um, over, like, some challenges, so, like, he was, like, talk about his kung fu ability. And, um, so the fight itself didn't happen, but a fight between the two people that had gone with those, those two groups ended up doing, and it was, it was, it was pretty cool. That guy ended up on his back and, uh, got punched a few times and yeah. So, we, we used to have fun.
- CWChris Williamson
What were the most common martial arts that were the ones that were being called out, and what were the most common ones that were being used to stress test the bullshit?
- 14:15 – 20:08
Forms of Martial Art
- CWChris Williamson
- PHPhrost
Well, usually it was somebody that had trained in r- mixed martial arts or Brazilian jiu-jitsu specifically because w- when you do those things, you know exactly what your limitations are because the guys that are, uh, and, and girls that are going, uh, that are rolling, that are sparring in the classroom, they, they're sparring. They're, they're seeing what they can get away with in a very loose, open rule set where, I mean, short of, you know, nasty stuff like poking someone in the eye or, you know, trying to bite or that kinda thing, UFC sorta rules, you know what your limitations are. And so the guys that do the sparring, like aikido, uh, which basically has no sparring, or, uh, styles like Wing Chun or just other, other forms of kung fu, not all of them but most of them, they don't do any sparring at all. So, they would, um, they would be hurt. Their, their images would be hurt by the fact that they had, up until we came along or, you know, s- people similar to us, had, um... Everybody just had assumed that, you know, you guys... Yeah, I mean, you, you do this, you know, you train for 10 years, uh, you're, you're probably a badass. And, you know, guys like to be thought of as badasses. So, yeah, their, their feelings get hurt when you're like, "Dude, you, you've never even taken a punch in your life. How do you know that, you know, you, all this floppy crap that you're doing is gonna help?" So.
- CWChris Williamson
Have you ever done a, whatever, more traditional martial art, like a Lao Gar or a kung fu or a karate or s- well, I guess karate's relatively, um, a- applicable in some aspects, but w- what about the more fluffy stuff? Have you ever tried to do that?
- PHPhrost
I, um, personally, uh, like, when I was first getting into martial artses way back in the '90s, I, uh, I did a little wushu, uh, and some Wing Chun. Uh, so, I mean, I, I have familiarity with that. Um, a- and then, you know, uh, the UFC came along and we were like, "Hmm, that'd be cool to see some of those dudes in that." And then, you know, j- it's- you just didn't. So, I think there was one guy-
- CWChris Williamson
Didn't do too well.
- PHPhrost
... there was one guy that did Wing Chun in the UFC, and he, um, immediately got put on his back and punched into, um, you know, the mat. So, yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
The reason I say that is I did Lao Gar for probably six years when I was in my teens, and it was a real formative part of growing up. I was doing tai chi, I was teaching tai chi as well. Um, and it's strange, thinking now in a world that's stress tested by UFC, I mean, it would've been stress tested, it was like 2004, 2001 to 2006 or something like that. Um, I wonder whether you still see a value in people doing those more traditional styles of martial arts.
- PHPhrost
I actually, I do, I do. I'm not, like... Uh, I guess the, the term would be a, a bigot against those, those sorts of things.
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- PHPhrost
First of all, there's the, the cultural relevance and the, I mean, they're, some of those things are just beautiful. To see, uh, like, even in aikido, I, I bag on aikido all the time 'cause it's, it, it's a goofy style. It was created by a, by a weird, you know, cultish, you know, vegan Japanese hippie guy. Um, but, uh, I... There, there's, there's beauty in the motion. It is a, in a way, almost a form of dance, uh, that reflects older things. And I can even rationalize how some of that would have been applicable to a battlefield hundreds of years ago. It's just so far removed from that context, it's not practi- practical to, you know, doing anything today. So, yeah, I mean, I, I think tai chi, um, especially for the movement, you know, i- it just, like a sort of walking yoga, you know, keep yourself limber as you age and that kinda thing. That's, that's great. That's good stuff.
- CWChris Williamson
I really enjoyed it.
- PHPhrost
So-
- CWChris Williamson
And it was super formative. I think that you're right. When you... The problem comes when you start talking about applicability, and it's the further away from UFC... I mean, what else, what else is there? I'm gonna guess Brazilian jiu-jitsu, your straight up boxing, kickboxing, Thai boxing, Samba, and then wrestling.
- PHPhrost
Yep.
- CWChris Williamson
Are those probably, like, the main styles?
- PHPhrost
Yeah. I mean, that-
- CWChris Williamson
Is there anything missing from there?
- PHPhrost
... that really is... No, I mean, uh, the... I mean, there has been some of the, uh, Kyokushin karate. I think, uh, was it Lyoto Machida? The guys that do-
- CWChris Williamson
Is that the one that's... Is that the one that, where they try and punch each other in the sternum?
- PHPhrost
It's a full contact, just not to the face. You can kick to the head, but you can't punch to the head. So, yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
What about sh- what's that one that, um, Michael Page did? Shoot fighting.
- PHPhrost
Cute Fighting... Uh, yeah. I mean, well that's, uh, to my knowledge, that's just a, um, a- it's just another rule set. So, and there was, uh, there were... I think one of those, uh, pancrase was the one where you, you had to use open hands. So, that was back in the day with Boss Bru-
- CWChris Williamson
So, that's what Will Smith should have learned.
- PHPhrost
(laughs) Yeah. Yeah. I mean, uh, I think there were a couple KOs, some open hand KOs for some of those dudes.
- CWChris Williamson
Shit, son.
- PHPhrost
And Will Smith
- NANarrator
Wasn't it-
- CWChris Williamson
Can you imagine if Will Smith had-
- PHPhrost
... almost all of that.
- CWChris Williamson
... had, had KO'd Chris Rock with a slap?
- 20:08 – 29:36
Importance of Learning to Fight
- PHPhrost
Uh, he doesn't mind.
- CWChris Williamson
What about, what do you think about the importance of learning how to fight? I have this conversation a lot with, uh, friends who are untrained in a very applicable style of martial arts, right? Like a, an MMA or a boxing, or a, a Bra-
- PHPhrost
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... Brazilian jiu-jitsu. Do you think that it is, I wouldn't say a moral obligation, but you could even say that, um, a quasi-necessity for especially men to perhaps spend some time learning how to fight?
- PHPhrost
Yeah. Well, yeah, absolutely. Because I mean, our... Especially if you have a, like a slightly higher than normal testosterone count, you're gonna think that you can fight whether or not you actually can. I mean, you, you run into so many dudes that are like, "Man, I, I just see red and I just start throwing," you know. It's like, they have in this, in their head this idea that, "Yeah, it's just... I can Goku my way out of this shit. I can power up just based on anger and Red Bull," or whatever, "and, and win a fight," when the difference between... And this is one of the things I try to explain to a lot of people. The difference between somebody who's trained for, like, just six months in a Brazilian jiu-jitsu or a Muay Thai or, or even boxing or wrestling, versus somebody who's, you know, watched those things on TV maybe, i- is, it's, it's astronomical the, the amount of ability that, that's there just from learning the basics. So, yeah, if you care about the people around you, uh, whether you're a man or a woman but, I mean, especially dudes, 'cause we fall into that role a lot, you should be physically capable to handle a situation like that. Whether it's, you know, you're confident enough that if it comes to that, you can, you can handle it, uh, but that also reinforces your ability to deescalate. Because you know at the end of the day, deescalating, even if you have to take a little bit of h- hurt to your pride, doesn't really hurt your pride as much as if you were unsure that you could kick that dude's ass. So, it's, it's easier to, to back down from a fight. You're like, "Okay, yeah, man. You're, you're... Okay. You're, you're a tough guy," um, in, in a situation like that, when you know that if, if you had to, you would have just tore him up. So, I mean-
- CWChris Williamson
Well, the, the difference there is kind of like the difference between being homeless or going camping. One of them is a choice, and the other one is mandated on you. It's what-
- PHPhrost
(laughs) Perfect.
- CWChris Williamson
... Peterson says.
- PHPhrost
I like that, yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Peterson says, you know, uh, "A harmless man is not a good man. A good man is a very dangerous man that has that under voluntary control." And that's the difference. You're backing down because it's your choice to, because you want to deescalate, as opposed to you're backing down because that's the only option that you have that doesn't involve you getting the shit kicked out of you.
- PHPhrost
Yeah, absolutely. It's the, uh, uh, better... "To be a warrior in a garden than a gardener in a war."
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah, that's, that's a-
- PHPhrost
Uh, I mean...
- CWChris Williamson
Yep. Um, (sighs) I, I... It's, it's interesting. Uh, there's a, a part of me that, that knows a bunch of dudes that I think would really, really benefit from spending a year or a couple of years doing some Brazilian jiu-jitsu or some, some striking. Because I think there's a lot of nervous energy around masculinity, uh, that comes out due to a, a fear of inferiority, if anything was to get physical. And I think that based on what I see, I'm right next to the sauna place that I go to in Austin. Have you been to Kuya yet?
- PHPhrost
Uh, I've, I've seen it, yeah. A-
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah, it's opposite 10th-
- PHPhrost
You're-
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah, opposite 10th, 10th Planet. Yes, I'm in Austin as well. We could have just shouted it out the window.
- PHPhrost
Oh! Oh, okay, yeah. Yeah, I'm just down the road. We, we got hit by the tornado last week.
- CWChris Williamson
Oh, shit, yeah.
- PHPhrost
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Uh, so, uh, Kuya, which is there, I get a lot of the 10th Planet guys that are coming in, and I'll be hearing them talk, and all of them are so softly spoken. These Brazilian kids, 17 years old with full cauliflower ears, but they're all coming in and they're all really quietly talking about whatever it is that they've got going on. And, uh, yeah, there's just a sense of sort of poise and certainty that those guys have that I think a lot of, um, dudes that I know... I've worked the front door of nightclubs for 15 years as a club promoter, and I've watched a lot of situations in which people who don't know how to fight have tried to fight probably because of a fear that they don't know how to fight.
- PHPhrost
Yeah. Yeah, I mean, it's... Uh, I like to compare it to a chihuahua. You know, a chihuahua knows he's gonna get his ass kicked, but he's, he's, he's gonna snap and bark and growl as much as he possibly can to convince you that he's not gonna get his ass kicked. So, there's (laughs) there's a little bit of that at play. And, yeah, it's the overconfidence thing. It's just we're, we're... Dudes are-We're just host to a whole cocktail of chemicals that send, like, all these signals to us. Like, "You need to fight." Or, you know, "If you don't fight, then, you know, you're gonna regret it in the future." Or, or all these sorts of things. And they, they lead to bad decisions and the, the older you get, the easier it is to manage those 'cause you have experience. But, um, man, being a, a, a teenage dude with a l- with a little bit of, uh, you know, like, tea running through you, you're... I mean, y- it's easy to go the wrong direction with, with some choices, so.
- CWChris Williamson
You look at the violent crime risk for men, and I think it's between 26 and 29, and it just falls off a cliff, you know?
- PHPhrost
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
And this is why the vast majority of gang members are at that young age. I mean, also if you've been in a gang for 10 years, since the age of 16 or something, you're probably maybe dead or in jail or one of a bunch of other things.
- PHPhrost
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
But, um, yeah, one of the best things that I think that you could do for young men, especially ones that might live in an impoverished neighborhood or guys that have got a little bit more of antisocial behavior tendencies when they're young, is to try and get them into a place where they can funnel that aggression, right? And-
- PHPhrost
Absolutely, yeah. For sure.
- CWChris Williamson
... create a positive outcome for that, as opposed to it happening on the street.
- 29:36 – 34:17
Engaging in Online Arguments
- PHPhrost
So.
- CWChris Williamson
We have very differing opinions about whether or not to engage in arguments online.
- PHPhrost
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
Can you, can you please put forward your, uh, proposition about why you do it?
- PHPhrost
My... Okay, uh, the, the people... I, I've actually writ- written this down in a piece but, um, uh, the, the idea is that a lot of people say, "Don't argue with idiots." Uh, 'cause, I mean, the, the idiot, there's li- so many... Mark Twain had a quote. It was like, uh, he'll, like, pull you down with his, his experience. Or don't, um... it's like playing j- chicken or chess with a, with a pigeon. It'll just knock over all the pieces and shit on the board. So, um, I look at it from a, a longer term sorta spectrum. So, the, y- you should argue with idiots if the, if there's an audience. So, if it's just you and an idiot, I mean, you're... Unless you genuinely care about that person and you, you wanna steer them in the right, right direction, you want to make them a non-idiot, yeah, they're, there, that would probably be a waste of your time. But when it-... when you argue with an idiot in front of an audience, just like you're having a debate with somebody, you're, you're talking for the audience. So, just don't focus so much on the person that you're, that you're arguing with as in make the points that other people who are maybe on the edge, uh, or the, you know, the, they could go the wrong way. They, they could go from, you know, believing in, you know, modern medicine to, uh, homeopathy or something like that. So, steer that argument for those. Those are your audience. The, the idiot in the argument is just your punching bag. So, so you can show them what you can do.
- CWChris Williamson
Are you saying, are you saying that online arguing is a spectator sport?
- PHPhrost
It absolutely is. In fact, the, the algorithms for those things are so tailored now to, to get that, to the engagement because, you know, a, a Twitter thread of, like, three people all agreeing on, you know, whatever, it is, is nothing. It doesn't... No- nobody's gonna tune in to, to look at that. But, like, just people piling on and just, like, just this and that and subtweets and threads and, you know, yeah, cancel mobs and all that shit. Yeah, that, that's what gets people engaged, so of course. So, I mean, yeah, you have to play in that battle because there are some people out there that are pretty good at that, and they're doing it for, you know, either selfish or the absolute wrong reasons. So, it's one of those, uh, hon- honestly, on some level, not to make it sound too grandiose, but, you know, all that's needed for, uh... Was it the Edmund Burke quote, I think, was that for, uh, for evil to thrive there's good men to do nothing, that kind of thing? I think it was Burke.
- CWChris Williamson
Are you, are you saying that your, your online arguments are a public service?
- PHPhrost
Uh, actually they literally are now-
- CWChris Williamson
And a spectator sport.
- PHPhrost
... because we're... I mean, personally, I don't know. My argu- arguments are kind of, you know, for my own benefit. But, a- as the organization that we run, yeah, we're, we're a non-profit educational media foundation. So, yeah, they're, we're trying to do some good, and, you know, maybe if we have a little fun in it, it's, it's an incidental, so.
- CWChris Williamson
So, I think, I think it's only because of the presence of people like you and, and, and the people that you argue with, that I'm able to take my stance which is, this is somebody's fight, but it's never my fight. Like, for me, an online argument, the, the cost to benefit ratio is just way, way, way off. And I do think that there are some people, I mean, Chris Kavanaugh is a perfect example of this. I, every so often, someone will tag me in a halfway through as an example or, you know, and this is one of the wor- most annoying things, right, about Twitter. Someone's having a big argument. Early on in the exchange, you somehow become tagged as an example or a whatever. And then for the remainder of the day, you have now been dr- like, by, by the scruff of your neck or by the, the seat of your pants, your now mentions are just annihilated by every-
- PHPhrost
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
And you're just, like, desperately hoping that someone decides to quote tweet it, which is kind of like the ejector seat button that means that you're no longer a part of this thread. And it's happened with me where I've been kind of intra- tagged in at one point into a, a Chris Kavanaugh thing. And it makes me feel physically uncomfortable because I know that this is going to be a battle of attrition. Yeah. This isn't going to be something that's going to be let go. This is going to go on for many, many tens of replies. And, uh, yeah, I, I salute you for your, uh, patience or perseverance or boredom that, that sort of pushes you to be able to do this online. But dude, it's, it's not for me.
- PHPhrost
Yeah, no. I mean, you, you have to waste so much time in it. And if you're not seeing, if you're not trying specifically to affect some kind of change, if you're just trying to engage with ideas, then, then I have no... I don't begrudge anyone for saying like, "Yeah, this is ridiculous. I'm just, I'm gonna go put my phone down."
- CWChris Williamson
I'm bailing out.
- PHPhrost
"Um, yeah, I'm gonna walk outside, touch grass."
- 34:17 – 40:08
The Steven Seagal Story
- PHPhrost
So-
- CWChris Williamson
What's the s-
- PHPhrost
I think that's what they're saying now.
- CWChris Williamson
What's the Steven Seagal stories? I want to know more about him.
- PHPhrost
Oh. Okay, so-
- CWChris Williamson
And you must have some others about crazy fake martial artists. Give us some of those.
- PHPhrost
The, the Steven Seagal story is, um... And I think... Actually, I don't give a shit whether he's, uh, you know, offended because, you know, he gave up his citizenship and now he's a Russian, I think. So, whatever. Um, so back in the day, uh, I think... Forget one of the movies, one of his three word movie titles. Um, he, uh... Hard to Kill, like, just Kick Ass, whatever. He, um, he has a, he had some stuntmen on the set and he was, like, talking shit like, "Man," uh, like, "I'll... all this stuff and nobody could, like, choke me out." And that was, that was the claim that he made. And, um, one of the stuntmen happened to be "Judo" Gene LeBell. Gene LeBell is legendary as a stuntman, um, and, and as a martial artist. I mean, Judo, just extraordinary guy. And he does not get enough respect and love over the years. I, I think he's dead, uh, but, you know. Anyway, so he was, he was in so many movies now that if, if you look through the, all the old '80s and '90s and be- before movies, Bruce Lee stuff, um, you, you can see him in the background, he plays Spot, Gene LeBell. But, um, Gene LeBell was on the set, he's like, "I'll take you up on that bet." And, um, so as the story goes, um, I'm not sure whether or not Steven Seagal was wearing brown pants when he showed up to the set that day, but he certainly left wearing brown pants. And then lawyers got involved and Gene was, like, you know, s- sued for, like, you know, signing non-disclosure and all that shit. So... But yeah, the... Gene LeBell, like, put him in a rear naked choke and made, uh, Steven Seagal shit his pants.
- CWChris Williamson
Wow.
- PHPhrost
Yeah. And I, I've had this confirmed by several people in the industry, um, and then over the years it... So, I have high confidence this is just an urban legend.
- CWChris Williamson
A lot of faith.
- PHPhrost
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Steven Seagal pooped himself.
- PHPhrost
Oh, yeah. Plus, I mean, I also want to believe it, so.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah. Well, that's, that... whatever, confirmation bias against Steven Seagal.
- PHPhrost
(laughs) Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
I think everybody has that. What else then? 'Cause there's been... There was, like, this period, I suppose, I don't know what the wonder years would have been when video cassettes, you were able to sell of these magic dojos and you've got these olden styley videos of non-touch knockouts and force pushing-
- PHPhrost
Yes.
- CWChris Williamson
... and chi energy and shit like that. What... Wasn't, wasn't that movie that, uh...... what's his face starred in about the fighting pit. Wasn't that based on a fake story as well?
- PHPhrost
Oh, uh, yeah. Van Damme played, uh, Frank Dux in-
- CWChris Williamson
And he was-
- PHPhrost
... was it Bloodsport?
- CWChris Williamson
Right. Yeah. And he was... That was a fake story, right?
- PHPhrost
Yeah. Frank Dux is a real person, um, but his whole story is manufactured. Like he was a, a CA ninja, you know, guy that fought in an underground tournament in, like, in Asia called the Kumite. Um, of... Back in the day, actually, this was even before we got involved in this, uh, I think... Was it, eh, Soldier of Fortune magazine? Some, some, um, some publication that wasn't exactly mainstream, like dug the... like did all the, the actual legwork on this. Tracked down his tournament trophy to a, um, to a trophy store right down the street from his house. So, uh, it just... I mean, they, they sourced it. The whole story's bullshit, but Frank Dux is still out there, like, giving ninja seminars, um, a- and a lot of them in Europe, 'cause, you know, very few people in the US believe in ninjas now unless they're into anime. But, um, yeah. So he, he's still trying to cash in on that cow. Then there was Ashida Kim who, um, was one of the first big guys we tangled with. Ashida Kim published a bunch of books in the '80s like Ninja Secrets of Invisibility or Ninja Magic Skills or this or that. And so we're like, "Okay." And he had this, uh, $10,000 challenge. He's like, "I can defeat anybody. Just put $10,000 up." So one of the members of our forums was like, cashed out $10,000 and put it in bill- stacks of bills on his desk and like, "Let's do this." And then, you know, the hemming and the hawing and the
- NANarrator
(mimicking grumbling)
- PHPhrost
... just started. And so, yeah, we, we punked him out and, um... Uh, God, I, I don't wanna tell this story 'cause this is, this is the nerdiest thing that anyone's ever heard. And, and every time I tell this, I feel a little, a little ashamed. But, so instead of fighting somebody from Bullshido, he went on Wikipedia and started threatening the, uh, founder of Wikipedia, Jim Wales, and like started saying, "Well, you should take down the Bullshido article and take down the article about me," because it included the information about us, um, you know, calling him out and his $10,000 challenge is BS. And so Jim Wales himself, the guy, uh, the head of the Wikimedia Foundation, deleted Ashida Kim's article off Wikipedia. And so I'm like, "How is this a real world thing where I'm..." and, um, Ashida Kim co- accused him of being in a rival ninja gang. Uh, it was just the most batshit... This is, this could only happen b- in the earlier days of the internet where, you know, you could actually interact with people. And I was... It was so wild and, uh, it's hard to tell this story and expect people to believe me, but it's just... it was a smaller world back then.
- CWChris Williamson
I love the fact that this guy, everything to him is framed through ninja gangs or not.
- PHPhrost
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Like everything that occurs. The reason that Will Smith slapped Chris Rock is because they were in rival ninja gangs.
- PHPhrost
(laughs) Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
J-
- 40:08 – 47:39
Investigating Chiropractors
- CWChris Williamson
you looking at to do with chiropractors? 'Cause I've heard rumors about the efficacy of chiropody? What it, what it, what it... chiropractic work.
- PHPhrost
Yeah, I-
- CWChris Williamson
Uh, I've heard sort of rumors about this for ages. What's the, what's the actual breakdown of, of where it came from and whether it's effective or not?
- PHPhrost
So, uh, chiropractic, uh, was created in the late 1800s by a man named D.D. Palmer. D.D. Palmer, up until then, had been like sort of a, for the time, a grifter snake oil salesman. I think, you know, professionally he like, like did grocery distributions or something. Until one day, uh, as the story goes, he, he cracked somebody's back 'cause, you know, I mean, cracking your back makes you feel better. And then all of a sudden, and keep in mind that this is in the, the time period where there was a lot of interest in spiritualism and, um, alter... Science was just getting rolling and real scientific method kinda stuff, and we're still figuring out... I think they had just started washing their hands before operating on people at the time. And so D.D. Palmer's story that he went public with to, to say the new field of, uh, chiropractic, whatever, however they, they say it, is, um... was imparted to him in a dream by a ghost doctor. By a dead ghost doctor. So somehow that became a thing. I mean, yeah, r- relentless marketer. I mean, like Steve Jobs level marketing. Um, and so, yeah. The, the, the thing that muddies the water on chiropractic is that a lot of the people that do chiropractic just want to help... uh, just basically wanna be physiotherapists. Just, just wanna do physical therapy, occupational therapy, that stuff, and get you back to you get your skeletal sys- your mus- muscles and everything like that all back working properly. Because, you know, think about it. P- most people sit on their ass all day or have bad posture or habits like that, and it's a necessary service. Your general practitioner's not gonna give a shit about that. They're gonna, you know, they'd... even, especially in the US, they're gonna give you, you know, five minutes of attention, prescribe you something and, you know, cash in money. But, so chiropractors have filled in a gap where a lot of people like, uh, "I, I need this kind of... I need something (laughs) to help me out 'cause I got a shitty mattress and, you know, I, I, I'm on my feet all day and, you know, so my back hurts." Yeah. It, it's gonna hurt. And the part of chiropractic that works is the actual evidence-based medicine, because they, they do some of that. They do... Chiropractors have...When you go to chiropractor school, you learn the, the real things, you learn the stuff that works, but you're also... The difference is that you're taught things like, uh, subluxations, um, which are, are not a thing.
- CWChris Williamson
What's that?
- PHPhrost
That, the, uh, basically, it, the, the bones are misaligned and so you're bringing them back into line. Usually, a, like a chiropractic subluxation is different than a, an actual medical one where things are really the hell out of whack. Chiropractic is like, "Oh, well, there's just a, you gotta just slightly adjust the spine." No. Chiropractic teaches, uh, that you c- i- in its true form, chiropractic teaches that you can cure any disease by adjusting the spine. And that's, well, patently ridiculous. There's also another central, uh, concept of chiropractic called the innate, which is a, like a life force, almost like a chi sort of thing, that, um, you won't hear a lot of the more, uh, contemporary, the, the ones that are out there talking about chiropractors. They w- they won't sell it to you, just like scientologists won't talk about Xenu. But it, it's there. And so, that's another fundamental part of their, their practice. And so, you can get... E- all the things that work at a chiropractor's, you can get from a physiotherapist. But the problem is, chiropractors are easier to see, they're more available, they're... And they do provide what feels like relief. When you get your back cracked, it feels good. The problem is, then they'll, they'll take that and expand it, and then you'll see videos of chiropractors cranking the necks of infants. Or, uh, my, my favorite one is, I don't know, I guess this guy's a celebrity, uh, chiropractor on YouTube or something, I don't know the dude's name. But, uh, there's a video of him taking, like, a hammer and, like, a chisel device, and just, he has it right up against the dude's tailbone and he's just hammering it, just whacking the shit out of it with a big old smile on his face. I'm like, "No! Please." I mean, un- unless you're doing that for a s- as a stunt or, like, an episode of Jackass. No! That's not a medical thing. So, you can get all the benefits of a chiropractor by seeing a physical therapist. Problem is that they're harder to access. And that's the problem with a lot of the alternative medicine out there. It's hard to get good medicine-medicine. It's hard to get seen by somebody that's an expert.
- CWChris Williamson
Why do people choose to become chiropractors if they want to be physical therapists? Is it easier to get the qualification to be a chiropractor?
- PHPhrost
Well, it's absolutely easier to be, to become a chiropractor. The, the, uh, the licensing and, and regulation, the... I mean, simply because it's le- it's less of an evidence-based practice, so, I mean, bullshit is an inherent part of it.
- CWChris Williamson
Uh, can chiropractors call themselves doctor?
- PHPhrost
Uh, you can be a, y- doctor of chiropractic. So, y- technically, yes.
- CWChris Williamson
Right. Okay, yeah. I was pretty sure that I'd seen something around that, that, whatever, like, Dr. Fletcher i- is... And it's, uh, a status thing, right? You say the word doctor-
- PHPhrost
Yeah. Well, if you-
- CWChris Williamson
... and you don't know if you're a doctor of law or a doctor of gi-
- PHPhrost
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... chiropody or whatever.
- PHPhrost
Doctor of philosophy.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah, bri-
- PHPhrost
It's like the (laughs) -
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah, precisely. What are you gonna do? You're gonna, like, debate my back better?
- PHPhrost
Yeah, I know. It's like the, the, that meme. It was like, uh, "Is there a doctor on board the airplane?"
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- PHPhrost
"Uh, yeah. Yeah, I'm a doctor of philosophy." It was like, "Well, he's gonna die." It's like, "We- we're all gonna die."
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- PHPhrost
So, um... But, uh, yeah. So, they, but they, they take advantage of the fact that there is a doctor in the, the, uh, the fuzzy gray area in the public understanding of the word doctor versus physician, uh, which is the term that, you know, it's, it's more, you know, appropriate to call the, the medical doctors now, 'cause everybody can be a, you can be a doctor of education or basket weaving or whatever now.
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- PHPhrost
And, um...
- CWChris Williamson
Have you, have you ever looked at, um, the evidence behind acupuncture or dry needling or anything like that?
- PHPhrost
Um, I haven't delved into it in depth. I, so, I, I'm loath to speak on that, um, because I'm not... I, I try not to chime in on stuff that I don't have a firm, solid grip on it. I mean, my intuition says it's, it's hokey as stuff, because I know a lot of the things considered, for example, uh, just to, to specify one thing, traditional Chinese medicine. That term traditional Chinese medicine is a entire, um, fabrication, uh, from the Mao era of China, because they were, um... There was a, uh, sort of deficit of actual physicians. So, they, they wanted to, like, institute some sort of nationalistic healthcare. And so, they, they ramped up the idea of traditional Chinese medicine. I mean, every, every culture has its own traditional medicine, herbs and, you know, that, that sort of thing, and h- folk remedies. And so, but they played that up to a, like, a state thing. They, they milled it in with the, um, with, like, the, the Chinese national identity for a while. And so, it's still deeply entrenched in there. So, you'll, you'll find journals, um, Chinese, which, you know, I'm not good enough on Duolingo to read it yet, um, but, uh, it's... You'll find some that are just like... I- in fact, you'll find chiropractor journals that, that sort of launder the, the ideas that they're trying to put into the mainstream for medicine, because as the saying goes, um, alternative medicine that actually works, it's just called medicine. It's just medicine.
- 47:39 – 59:28
Trust in Mainstream Medicine for Recovery
- PHPhrost
- CWChris Williamson
I have been thinking about this for quite a while, like, what it is about these different pathways where people seem to show some sort of recovery afterward. And I had this guy on, David Robson, who's just written a book called The Expectation Effect. And man, this shit blew my mind. Absolutely blew my mind. So, you understand the placebo effect, right? That-
- PHPhrost
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... one of the most replicable effects in pharmacology is this panacea where the placebo effect accounts for sometimes over 50% of the impact of particular drugs. And The Expectation Effect, which is David's new book, goes through... This is present in anything that you care to care about, man. Like, absolutely everything. My favorite... There's, um, something called a nocebo as well, which is a negative, kind of like a hypochondriac that, that creates their own, um-
- PHPhrost
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... symptoms. Gluten intolerances were 3% 10 years ago, and they are 30%...... of people now. But-
- PHPhrost
Yup.
- CWChris Williamson
... think about the last 10 years, we've had a lot of messaging around the dangers of gluten and bloating and hives and sensitivity and all that stuff.
- PHPhrost
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
And gluten-free foods as well, which further reinforces that. Uh, so researchers brought people who, um, did and didn't have biological gluten intolerances into the lab. They fed all of these people food which did not contain gluten, but told all of these people that it did.
- PHPhrost
Hm.
- CWChris Williamson
And you ended up with people who weren't allergic to gluten, who hadn't eaten gluten, having a gluten reaction.
- PHPhrost
Yep.
- CWChris Williamson
And this is the power of expectation. And I... This is where more degrees of freedom, I think, need to be given when we're talking about alternative solutions to things-
- PHPhrost
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... because you can't deny the fact that that person does have diarrhea, does have hives, does have bloating. The problem is, it's not because of the reason that they think it is, and let's roll that into something else. Let's say that it is, um, acupuncture, right? That somebody having faith... Let- let's get beyond the fact that simply spending a bit of time doing some self-care in a quiet room with some nice incense burning is a way to activate your parasympathetic nervous system for a while, which might be the only part of your entire week where you're not thinking about the kids, and debt, and whatever, which is-
- PHPhrost
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... a vi- a value in itself. Like, that's a genuine value outside of the expectation effect. Then on top of that, the fact that you've done something that feels like self-care, that makes you feel like you're in control. So, it's such a bizarre situation to be in, right? Because the, let's say, I don't know, the studies in acupuncture, let's say that acupuncture doesn't have an impact on this person's injury or whatever it is they're trying to do, but they feel better because of the very, very robust and effective expectation effect. You go, "Okay, did the acupuncture work?" Well, it didn't work for the reason that you thought it worked, it didn't work on the mechanism that you thought it was working on, but you can't deny the fact that by going and doing this thing, the person feels better. So the outcome that you needed is created, just not through the means that you thought it was. And it's just... It's such a, a really interesting, like, world to think about, the fact that what you're actually looking to do with a lot of people, especially if they're trying to fix ailments, is actually find the solution. I mean, what would be ideal would be to find a solution that speaks to them which also assists them genuinely through some sort of biological mechanism. But failing that, finding a mechanism which, uh, uh, finding a, uh, solution which speaks to them to maximize that expectation effect is perhaps slightly disingenuous, but actually something that if you're thinking, "What's the best way we can get good outcomes for this person?" that could actually be a really, really effective way to look at it.
- PHPhrost
Yeah, no, I don't begrudge anyone for seeking a remedy to alleviate their suffering, to reduce their suffering in any way. It's just, the, the issue that I have... I mean, it's on two levels. The systemic issue is that we have a broken healthcare system with all the wrong incentives and all the wrong priorities, and it's just not serving the public health. So... But, um, from a second level, on an individual level, if you find something that treats, um, a, a problem and makes you feel better, okay, that's the symptoms, but you've got to treat the actual problem too. Like, the, the biggest example that I always go back to is that Steve Jobs would be with us today if he hadn't sought out alternative, um, like, means of treating his actual pancreatic cancer, which was one of the-
- CWChris Williamson
That was 80, 80% chance of survival, right?
- PHPhrost
Absolutely. It was one of the few. Most pancreatic cancers will just ruin you. Will just kill you. But he had the one that was treatable by modern medicine, and he, instead, he sought out all kinds of hokey nonsense. So yeah, I mean, BS killed Steve Jobs, but alternative medicine did, because he had it in his head that we can take care of this problem, um, by, you know. It's like, okay, well... You know, no. Do what you need to do. Do the right thing. And, and that's, that's where, that's where I get frustrated at all of the, um, all the problems with, uh, like, alternative medicine. It gets in the way. If you wanna be on the side... You know, I don't have a problem with somebody, you know, burning essential oils or whatever in, in their house and using it.
- CWChris Williamson
As long as you're getting your chemotherapy as well.
- PHPhrost
Yeah. Yeah, I mean, don't, don't skip the chemo so that you can smell lavender, you know?
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs) Yeah, I, um, I do, I, I do understand. I also think that there's probably a threshold here. I- if you've hurt your internal rotation of your shoulder, and y- that's, that's the degree to which you're playing fuckery with typical versus non-typical solutions for it, okay, the externalities there aren't too bad. If you're playing with-
- PHPhrost
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... "I've got pancreatic cancer," it feels like it's a little bit more of a serious discussion and you should, I don't know, maybe, maybe go with modern medicine.
- PHPhrost
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
But the... It, it seems generally at the moment that there is a... I, I, I'm gonna be interested to find out what happens post-pandemic generally around, um, people's views of typical medicine, big pharma overall. You know, we, we already had the seeds sowed, um, with people being disgruntled to do with, uh, opioid addiction for pain medicines. We recently had that, uh... What was that series about the family that created oxycodone that was re-
- PHPhrost
Oh yeah, the Sacklers. Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Yes, there was a, there's been, like, I think a documentary, a real documentary, and a dramatized series that's kind of like a quasi-documentary about them.
- 59:28 – 1:00:22
Where to Find Phrost
- CWChris Williamson
Where should people go if they want to check out your stuff?
- PHPhrost
Um, uh, I'm on Twitter @phrost, uh, but bullshio.net is the website. We have podcast, uh, we, we livestream on Twitch and that kind of thing. And so, uh, we have forums on bullshio.net. Uh, forums are still okay. They're, they're not the, the s- the, as cool as like, you know, Twitter and stuff like that for, for the cool kids, but I think we can have better conversations on there, and I wish everybody would engage more on that kind of medium. But, uh, other than that, yeah, hey, just, uh, do your own, you know, research, you know? (laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
So I appreciate you.
- PHPhrost
But you're right.
- CWChris Williamson
Cheers, man.
- PHPhrost
All right. Thanks, man. It's been great.
- CWChris Williamson
What's happening, people? Thank you very much for tuning in. If you enjoyed that episode, then press here for a selection of the best clips from the podcast over the last few weeks. And don't forget to subscribe. Peace.
Episode duration: 1:00:23
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