Finding Heroic Meaning Like Stories Of Old - Tom Van Der Linden

1. 0:00 – 3:49

   Intro

   1. TLTom van der Linden0:00

      We know there's some part of existence that's fundamentally strange. We sometimes have the realization that something very ordinary seems fundamentally alien-like to us. That's, I think, us becoming aware of our Sisyphus-like fate. When you become Sisyphus who is conscious now, suddenly he's no longer, like, hopefully going about his life. Now he is, like, forced to justify it in some way, to make sense of it.

   2. CWChris Williamson0:23

      Dude, I love your stuff. I think that your channel is absolutely fantastic.

   3. TLTom van der Linden0:29

      Mm-hmm. Thanks. (laughs)

   4. CWChris Williamson0:31

      That, it's, it's one of my favorite things on the internet. For the people who don't know, it's Like Stories of Old YouTube channel.

   5. TLTom van der Linden0:36

      Mm-hmm.

   6. CWChris Williamson0:37

      How would you describe... Let's say you meet someone at a party and they say, "Oh, you do YouTube."

   7. TLTom van der Linden0:41

      Yeah.

   8. CWChris Williamson0:41

      "What, what do you YouTube about?" What do you say?

   9. TLTom van der Linden0:44

      I- i- it's the worst question. It, it depends on the person, like, how familiar they are with the YouTube space. If I can see, like, they're, like, a normal person who doesn't have, like, the super high awareness about what YouTube means, (laughs) I'll just say, like, "Uh, I make short documentaries, like..." or something like that. Um, sometimes I'll just say, like, uh, "I make video essays." And they'll, of course people will ask, like, "Oh, what's a video essay?" And then it's, it, it's like an essay, but except it has video with it. (laughs) And it depends, you can, you can often quickly, like, sense, uh, if a person is, like, really interested or if it was just asking out of politeness, so, um, yeah. Depending on how they, on their attitude, I will expand more or elaborate more on... Um, I think the, the longer, more complicated answer would be, like, I'll say that it's a combination between, like, examining philosophy and doing media analysis and sort of exploring the relation between the two.

   10. CWChris Williamson1:44

       Yeah, I've had the, uh, "So what's your podcast about?" question 100 times-

   11. TLTom van der Linden1:51

       Mm-hmm.

   12. CWChris Williamson1:52

       ... since I've been in Austin, and, uh, I, I still am yet to come up with a good succinct answer-

   13. TLTom van der Linden1:59

       Mm-hmm.

   14. CWChris Williamson1:59

       ... that isn't five minutes long, and someone didn't want the five-minute-long answer.

   15. TLTom van der Linden2:02

       (laughs)

   16. CWChris Williamson2:02

       They wanted me to say, "Oh, it's about Ultimate Frisbee," or, "It's about World of Warcraft," or, "It's about porn," or something, um, like they, they just wanted, like, a one-word answer. I'm like, "I'm sorry, I can't, I can't give you that." So, t- tie together, what's, is there a common thread that does tie together all of the videos that you do, or is it just your, whatever your curiosity has in store that day?

   17. TLTom van der Linden2:25

       Um, I think what the channel name originally referred to, Like Stories of Old, is the idea that you have movies which is, relatively speaking, a new form of art. Like, it's been around for, like, just over a century. Uh, video games as well, it's even newer. And then, the idea was that even those new forms of art, they still have or still carry, like, the timeless wisdom like the stories of old, you know? So, that's kind of what I, what I set out to do, that was sort of the premise of the channel, that I wanted to kind of get a sense of the timeless within the contemporary art forms, and also that in doing so, like, explore why I'm still so, why I'm so drawn to all of these things. Like, why do certain movies become, like, my favorite movies? Like, why do they evoke, like, deep emotions within me, or why do films from filmmakers, like, far away resonate with me, like, very strongly even though I share nothing with them, like, on the surface level? And so, yeah, that's, uh, that's kind of how it came to be, and I think that's an element that keeps being, like, a cornerstone of the videos.

   18. CWChris Williamson3:40

       I think that a big part of it, at least for me and from the buddies that I've, uh, shilled your content to as well-

   19. TLTom van der Linden3:47

       Mm-hmm.

   20. CWChris Williamson3:48

       ... uh, one of the

2. 3:49 – 12:50

   The Problem with Hero Stories

   1. CWChris Williamson3:49

      reasons that it's enjoyable is that digging into the real discomfort, sort of the very normal, very comfortable, very banal, existential, uh, anomie that is a byproduct of just being a human, and very well may have been for the last, you know, 50,000 years, but feels like a very, uh, particular, uh, distillation of that now. Um, you know, really allowing to sit with that discomfort I think is something that's very interesting. So, one of the-

   2. TLTom van der Linden4:22

      Mm-hmm.

   3. CWChris Williamson4:22

      ... topics that you talk about a lot is, uh, heroic stories and heroism and things like that. There's one hero in every story, but everybody that watches the story kind of presumes that it's us that's supposed to play that role.

   4. TLTom van der Linden4:39

      Yeah. Yeah.

   5. CWChris Williamson4:39

      Do you think that there is a problem in being too heavily reliant or, um, putting heroic stories up on a pedestal because of that reason?

   6. TLTom van der Linden4:50

      Um, it, it definitely can be. Um, but, um, yeah, I, I think it's understandable too, so even though I would point it out as problematic, I wouldn't say, like, it's immediately, like, a judgment of humanity because I do believe that we are naturally, like, um, egocentric. Like, we literally see the world from only our own perspective, so naturally, like, we experience ourselves as the center, like, the, the center of the universe, like, almost literally. Like, the world's, to us, like, the world revolves around, like, ourselves and our, like, our emotions, our feelings. Like, everything around us, um, is- is sort of geared towards us, and we, uh, like, like, we don't also, we don't have access to, like, other people's minds. Like, we, everything else has to be communicated to us. Um, so in that sense, it makes sense, or it's per- or it's perfectly logical that we see ourselves as a central character, as a central hero, because, of course, we also tend to see ourselves as good people generally. Like, we like to believe that we at least have good intentions, or whatever.Um, but yeah, and so heroic stories, yeah, they can definitely indulge that kind of natural self-centeredness in a way that also romanticizes it and maybe glorifies it. And especially in our, like, current day and age of, like, social media and, uh, having to present ourselves and being more concerned with the image we project, uh, towards the outside, then, yeah, I can definitely imagine... Or at least for myself, I have struggled with, like, how heroic stories have set, like, expectations for me that I, um, that led to some conflict, like, in my personal life in, uh, in various ways.

   7. CWChris Williamson6:52

      You say in one of your videos that there's a difference between heroic purpose and grandiosity, between serving others and serving ourselves-

   8. TLTom van der Linden6:59

      Mm-hmm.

   9. CWChris Williamson6:59

      ... and you ask how we can know if we're acting to better the world or just to inflate our own ego. And-

   10. TLTom van der Linden7:06

       Yeah.

   11. CWChris Williamson7:06

       ... this line between the two i- is so hard because everything's performative now. I had this discussion, I was with, uh, Peter Thiel, founder of PayPal this weekend, and we talked about this thing, performative empathy, that people do in a way to make themselves look like somebody that's good. So, it's more important to look like somebody that's good than it is to be a person who is good or to even do good. And-

   12. TLTom van der Linden7:33

       Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

   13. CWChris Williamson7:34

       ... that, I don't know, that sort of meta-game where it's not about doing the thing, it's about people seeing you do the thing. It's not about donating to charity, it's about taking an Instagram selfie while you give a homeless person on the street-

   14. TLTom van der Linden7:46

       Mm-hmm.

   15. CWChris Williamson7:47

       ... $5. That plays out... And, and the problem is e- everyone knows that performative nature of sort of charity and, and stuff, right? Like, that's conspicuous consumption meets altruism. You know, it's-

   16. TLTom van der Linden7:57

       Yeah.

   17. CWChris Williamson7:57

       ... it's just signaling. The dangerous thing, I think (clears throat) , heroic purpose and grandiosity between serving others and serving ourselves, that seems to cross a line into something more personal, more existential, more identity-focused, and that's-

   18. TLTom van der Linden8:13

       Mm-hmm.

   19. CWChris Williamson8:14

       ... a bigger concern, I think, for me.

   20. TLTom van der Linden8:17

       Um, yeah. Yeah, just to go back to th- the first point you mentioned about the performative empathy. I think there's also... It's easy to criticize that, that, "Oh, it's just the Instagrammer doing it for the likes, helping the homeless." But at the same time, if you... You can also argue or, like, maybe add, like, a little bit of nuance that if everyone does more performative stuff, then at, at the same time, it also brings that message out into the world that actually inspires people to, uh, to do some actual good. Like, the, the kind of fake-it-till-you-make-it idea that we... If we... If enough people perform, then maybe, like, collectively, we start to do better in, in actual terms. So there... It's easy to criticize, but I can see there's also a value to it that might be, uh, underappreciated if, uh, we are all, like, just hoarding on the, the one Instagrammer who s- seems to do something (laughs) performative.

   21. CWChris Williamson9:10

       Yeah. I think that it's easy to throw shade at that person, right?

   22. TLTom van der Linden9:14

       Mm-hmm.

   23. CWChris Williamson9:14

       It's easy to say, "Look, they're obviously just doing it for the likes."

   24. TLTom van der Linden9:17

       Yeah.

   25. CWChris Williamson9:17

       But you're right, the, the cash value of the person who gives $5 to the homeless person, but puts it on Instagram, is $5 more than the person that doesn't do it at all. And-

   26. TLTom van der Linden9:27

       Yeah, exactly. Like, it's easy to criticize, but at the same time, like, I don't give, like, ludicrous amounts of money-

   27. CWChris Williamson9:32

       (laughs)

   28. TLTom van der Linden9:32

       ... to homeless people, so who am I to then judge-

   29. CWChris Williamson9:34

       I-

   30. TLTom van der Linden9:34

       ... the person for doing it and-
3. 12:50 – 20:42

   Making a Difference or Inflating Ego?

   1. CWChris Williamson12:50

      any idea how people can work out-

   2. TLTom van der Linden12:52

      (laughs)

   3. CWChris Williamson12:52

      ... whether they're acting to better the world or just to inflate their own ego?

   4. TLTom van der Linden12:58

      Um, no, that- (laughs) that's the reason I- I wanted to make the video, because I didn't have the answer myself. (laughs) And it's something I struggled with, because at the same time, like, there were a lot of things that... It- it's not always either/or. Like, there can be things that make you feel better and make your, like, your ego more b- or that flatter your ego, while at the same time doing actual good. But, um, I think it's just one element that can never do s- uh, that never, um, would be... that's never hurtful is to just maintain some awareness about how you're feeling about what you're doing and seeing, like, how you're connected to certain actions, like, emotionally. Because that's, I think, the part of ourselves that we are sometimes most reluctantly to really examine. Um, like, so, y- you know, the- the Ben Shapiro thing, like, "Facts don't care about your feelings," but I think it- it very much works the other way around as well. Like, feelings don't always care about the facts, so you might be mindful of those as well. I don't think it's constructive to pretend that we're, like, completely rational persons who gather information, make a reasonable decision, and then act accordingly. I think it's important to un- to- to have a sense of your own, like, desires and fears and your own biases, your own, like, hidden ideological beliefs, that sort of st- stuff. Um, the things that trigger you, like emotionally, um, those things, I think, are always worth- worth, like, examining. And, um... So yeah, I guess that's, uh, as good a start as any.

   5. CWChris Williamson14:41

      Well, I think that is the temptation of the rational movement, right? That people thought that if they became the most educated on cognitive biases and they were able to-

   6. TLTom van der Linden14:53

      Mm-hmm.

   7. CWChris Williamson14:53

      ... identify all of the different ways that their thinking might be flawed, that they would actually be able to shortcut the system itself. But the Jonathan Haidt example of the rider on the back of an elephant is like, you- you get to see this tiny little two percent sliver of what's going on, and then the rest of it's-

   8. TLTom van der Linden15:11

      Mm-hmm.

   9. CWChris Williamson15:11

      ... just running on autopilot. You know, okay, so I- I'm just at the mercy of most of these things. And I- (sighs) I went to this, um... You know Scott Alexander, right, from Slate Star Codex or Astral Codex Ten? He's this blogger, very famous blogger.

   10. TLTom van der Linden15:25

       Mm-hmm.

   11. CWChris Williamson15:25

       Big rationalist guy. Uh, and he held a meetup in Austin, and I went to it. And somebody asked him something along the lines of, um... But I- I- I don't even think he got asked about it. I think he just said out of- out of the blue. Um, "There was a period where we all thought that we could fix our lives through rationalism," right? Through the rationalist movement.

   12. TLTom van der Linden15:47

       Mm-hmm.

   13. CWChris Williamson15:48

       "Um, and it turns out that isn't true."

   14. TLTom van der Linden15:50

       (laughs)

   15. CWChris Williamson15:50

       And I was like, that's really interesting because Daniel Kahneman, that wrote Thinking Fast and Slow, he was on stage with Sam Harris five or six years ago, and Sam said, "So Daniel, you're a Nobel Prize winner, one of the most preeminent psychologists on the planet that understands the way that the human brain works. After decades and decades at the cutting edge of this research, are you any closer to being a more rational human being?" And Daniel just went, "Not really."

   16. TLTom van der Linden16:16

       (laughs)

   17. CWChris Williamson16:16

       And you think, right, okay, so this is the guy... Roy Baumeister talks about his willpower.

   18. TLTom van der Linden16:21

       Yeah.

   19. CWChris Williamson16:21

       You know, like the guy that wrote the- the book on willpower. And you think, well, if that's the case, if more knowledge isn't necessarily the solution-

   20. TLTom van der Linden16:31

       Mm-hmm.

   21. CWChris Williamson16:31

       ... then it- it is something else. And accepting the fact that feelings are going to continue to just plow through however much logic you try to throw at it-

   22. TLTom van der Linden16:41

       Yeah.

   23. CWChris Williamson16:41

       ... and- and trying to, um, trying to hold onto that, uh, uh, uh-

   24. TLTom van der Linden16:46

       Mm-hmm.

   25. CWChris Williamson16:47

       ... as- as a- a place of wisdom as opposed to something to kind of be ashamed of. I actually had this, uh, this concept that I wanted to teach you about. I thought that this would be up your street, and it's about right here. So I spoke about this-

   26. TLTom van der Linden16:59

       Oh yeah.

   27. CWChris Williamson16:59

       ... in my- my newsletter a couple of months ago, about- about a year ago, and, um, then I released it the other week. And yet again, every time I talk about it, people love it. It's called The Inner Citadel, right?

   28. TLTom van der Linden17:08

       Mm-hmm.

   29. CWChris Williamson17:08

       So it's, uh, Isaiah Berlin is the first guy that came up with this, so I'm just gonna read you a little passage here. So it's-

   30. TLTom van der Linden17:15

       Oh yeah, sure.
4. 20:42 – 28:57

   Understanding Oneself Deeply

   1. CWChris Williamson20:42

      there's a bit that you said here talking about the, um, the fact that everybody is kind of fundamentally alone. Everybody tries to let the people around them understand themselves as best as they can, but when we really, really do genuinely try to open up, that's often-

   2. TLTom van der Linden21:02

      Mm-hmm.

   3. CWChris Williamson21:02

      ... when we sort of stumble over our own words and fall face-

   4. TLTom van der Linden21:05

      Oh, yeah.

   5. CWChris Williamson21:06

      ... flat on the floor. Um, you've got this quote from David Foster Wallace that says, "Everybody is identical in their secret unspoken belief that way deep down, they are different from everyone else."

   6. TLTom van der Linden21:18

      Mm-hmm.

   7. CWChris Williamson21:19

      What's that mean to you?

   8. TLTom van der Linden21:20

      Yeah, I also... Um, I think that comes... David Foster Wallace is also someone who was really conscious about people having this egocentric n- h- human condition, sort of, like, nature of their character. Like, um... Yeah, I think that's, that's the part where he says, like, that we experience the world as from our, like, point of view, like, literally like we are at the center of our universe. And, um, I think the, the author Ernest Becker, he also goes into that, like, with real poetic language as well. Like, you, you are, like, in touch with yourself with such, like, wealth and depth, and you feel, like, complicated emotions, and complex thoughts, and, like, contradicting ideas. But it's, it's much more difficult to get a sense of those, like, uh, in another person. Like, it's easy to see another person almost literally, like, as less human than you, because you, uh, you see maybe, like, a handful of, like, surface level traits that they have, and then you kind of cut it off. You don't deny them, or, or you tend to deny peop- other people, like, from having the same dep- depth that is within you. So, um, yeah, I think that's what that sort of means to me. Like, you, um... I guess it's also an, an issue of, like, empathy, like, the limits of empathy. Like, you can try to understand other people, but at some point, um, especially if you're not making a conscious effort to, like, understand others, it's easy to, like, cut them off at some point, like, instead of, of in, in, in terms of, like, character depth, and-

   9. CWChris Williamson23:05

      But we don't even understand-

   10. TLTom van der Linden23:06

       ... yeah.

   11. CWChris Williamson23:06

       ... our own emotional states, you know?

   12. TLTom van der Linden23:10

       Yeah.

   13. CWChris Williamson23:10

       If you... How, how do you hope to truly be able to understand somebody else and the nuance to their very personal type of suffering-

   14. TLTom van der Linden23:22

       Mm-hmm.

   15. CWChris Williamson23:22

       ... when you can't even put into words your own suffering?

   16. TLTom van der Linden23:26

       Yeah, that's very much true. Yeah. Yeah, for me, I always, like, I like to compare, like, the, the depths of, like, the human heart or the soul or whatever you wanna call it, like, to just basically, like, the, the nature of the universe itself. Like, I think the, the most smallest depth within you, it's, like, comparable, comparable to, like, the grandest mystery of the universe in the sense that we can understand, like, a lot about it, but we can never quite touch that ultimate essence that it's, that's at the heart of things. Um, but at the same time, that may very well be, like, a projection that we cast onto it. Maybe there isn't some secret, like, unconscious hidden depth. Maybe, like, all the, the things we see and feel, it's just-

   17. CWChris Williamson24:15

       That is all that we are.

   18. TLTom van der Linden24:16

       ... that's just all it is.

   19. CWChris Williamson24:17

       Yeah, yeah, yeah.

   20. TLTom van der Linden24:17

       Yeah.

   21. CWChris Williamson24:17

       Which is kind of even more terrifying.

   22. TLTom van der Linden24:19

       Yeah.... have you seen the, the movie Drive My Car? The, the one that won the Oscar for best foreign film?

   23. CWChris Williamson24:26

       No.

   24. TLTom van der Linden24:27

       It's a Japanese film. It's, it, it's a 3-hour movie about, basically, this guy who, I won't go into spoilers too much, but this is, like, the premise. Um, y- yeah, there's a long introduction and we just... in which you see the life of a guy who apparently knows that his wife is cheating on him, and then the wife suddenly dies before he con- confronts her about it. So, it leaves him, like, with this gaping hole with not understanding his wife and why she did what she did. And, um, there's a point later on where another character, like, he... uh, of course, he's, like, trying to get into the depths of her and, like, what he... trying to figure out what it is that he doesn't get about, uh, w- or what he was missing maybe, or what he didn't provide for her that maybe caused her to do that. And then, at some point, there's another character that kind of points out, like, "Maybe there's not... maybe there's no secret. Maybe that's just... maybe she loved you, and she went with other guys as well," or something like that. And that, to me, got me thinking about, yeah, maybe there is... maybe we try to overanalyze it sometimes, like we can, um... I th- I feel that's also a thing that happens a lot with people who actively go in search of their self. Like, they go to some retreat or, like, on some journey. Like, they want to discover, like, some hidden essence within them that they feel out of touch with, but maybe that's part of the issue. Maybe there's nothing, like... maybe the whole idea of having one, like, solid center somewhere hidden within you is, uh, kind of an illusion too. Like, maybe that's something we project or that we i- i- i- for some reason or another, like, symbolize and project within ourselves, but yeah.

   25. CWChris Williamson26:13

       That's even more scary to me, the idea that-

   26. TLTom van der Linden26:18

       Mm-hmm.

   27. CWChris Williamson26:18

       ... there isn't, you know, the egoic-less, infinite whole of peace that is to be found.

   28. TLTom van der Linden26:31

       Mm-hmm.

   29. CWChris Williamson26:32

       That the, the, the conflict that you have, that you're riding on a daily basis, is just... that's what it is. And y- you're right. Y- y- I always think about, um, you know when there's missing people, someone's daughter has gone missing or whatever-

   30. TLTom van der Linden26:45

       Mm-hmm.
5. 28:57 – 40:49

   How to Develop True Empathy

   1. CWChris Williamson28:57

      uh... I, I wanna go back to what you said before, 'cause I've had this sort of sense for a little while, and I really, really... I really-

   2. TLTom van der Linden29:02

      Mm-hmm.

   3. CWChris Williamson29:02

      ... love the idea that there's a, an imbalance between how much we're going to see of ourselves, i.e.-

   4. TLTom van der Linden29:09

      Mm-hmm.

   5. CWChris Williamson29:10

      ... everything, uh, and how much we're going to see of everybody else-

   6. TLTom van der Linden29:14

      Yeah.

   7. CWChris Williamson29:14

      ... re- relatively nothing, and the fact that there is this huge imbalance in the richness of our own experience-

   8. TLTom van der Linden29:21

      Mm-hmm.

   9. CWChris Williamson29:21

      ... and yet, we get to see this (laughs) ... we only get to see what other people are aware of, that they choose to communicate, that we're around to be able to see at the right time when we were paying attention-

   10. TLTom van der Linden29:33

       Mm-hmm.

   11. CWChris Williamson29:33

       ... duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh. You know, you just filter down all of this stuff, and I, I do think you're right. Like, that true empathy, when you look at it that way, you go, "How are you even supposed to begin to understand-

   12. TLTom van der Linden29:44

       Mm-hmm.

   13. CWChris Williamson29:44

       ... somebody else?" I mean, so what do you think with that? Do you th- is it possible to ever truly know another person?

   14. TLTom van der Linden29:50

       Um, I think well enough, but to add another layer to what you just said, like, there's, uh... to just drop another movie, there was the recent one, uh, The Worst Person in the World. I'm not sure if you're familiar with that one. It's a Danish film. Um, it also... it, it's about this woman who is in her 30s, and she's also kind of struggling through life and existence and her relationships and stuff. And again, without spoiling too much, too much, at one point, a person is, um, on his death bed, and he says to her, like, "When I die, I..." I don't know the exact quotes, but...Um, it was an ex-lover and he, he says like, "When I die, I'm gonna take some part of you with me because there's things that I know about you." Like, little details that you have probably forgotten, or like, moments that they've shared that she doesn't remember, but he does, and he's taking that with him in death. And that's kind of, I thought that was such an interesting reversal of the idea, like, we- we're trying to get to know other people, but in the same sense we're, we can lose ourselves, like... Or- or we give little pieces of ourselves to others that they then maybe keep to themselves that we, sort of, l- that we lose for ourselves, but that others keep for us. Um, which I, that was strangely uplifting to me. I don't know what you're thinking about it, but-

   15. CWChris Williamson31:14

       It's a... Dude, I just keep on getting existential terror by all of these-

   16. TLTom van der Linden31:18

       Yeah.

   17. CWChris Williamson31:20

       ... these situations. But you're right. There is something that we get to do... And- and- and also, you know, when somebody leaves, by definition, they're no longer here to be themselves, to be able to see themselves, and yet you have a part of them-

   18. TLTom van der Linden31:35

       Mm-hmm.

   19. CWChris Williamson31:35

       ... that's within you. Do you remember, you've seen, you've done a bunch of, or maybe even more than one review of Interstellar, right?

   20. TLTom van der Linden31:42

       Oh, yeah.

   21. CWChris Williamson31:42

       Yeah. And in that-

   22. TLTom van der Linden31:44

       (laughs)

   23. CWChris Williamson31:44

       ... do you remember the, the discussion that they're having, uh, when they're going to make their final decision about which planet to go to, and they're saying, "Look, he's not going to be there. There's no chance that he's there." Uh.

   24. TLTom van der Linden31:57

       Mm-hmm.

   25. CWChris Williamson31:58

       And they start having this debate about evolution, about why is it that we love people that have already passed or that are no longer with us. Do you remember this?

   26. TLTom van der Linden32:05

       Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Very clearly.

   27. CWChris Williamson32:06

       Yeah. So that... D- w- what, I mean, what does that mean to you? What does that section mean to you, when they're talking about the fact that she's lost this person-

   28. TLTom van der Linden32:15

       Yeah.

   29. CWChris Williamson32:15

       ... he's gone to somewhere else, and she knows that he's there, and she can't explain to anybody why she knows she's there?

   30. TLTom van der Linden32:22

       Mm-hmm.
6. 40:49 – 51:53

   Lessons from Albert Camus

   1. TLTom van der Linden40:49

      yeah.

   2. CWChris Williamson40:49

      You mentioned earlier about, uh, cynicism.

   3. TLTom van der Linden40:52

      Mm-hmm.

   4. CWChris Williamson40:53

      And I said that I'd, uh, n- had no desire at all to watch After Life with Ricky Gervais, but then you did a, a video analysis of the first season.

   5. TLTom van der Linden41:02

      Mm-hmm.

   6. CWChris Williamson41:02

      And now I'm, I'm tempted to go and do it. And in that, you spent a good bit of time talking about Albert Camus.

   7. TLTom van der Linden41:08

      Oh, yeah.

   8. CWChris Williamson41:08

      What have you learned from him, or what are some of your favorite insights or takeaways from having spent some time reading Camus?

   9. TLTom van der Linden41:17

      Yeah, he's probably my favorite of the existentialists, um, mainly because he's firmly, like, secular about it. Like, you have existentialist writers like Kierkegaard who I also think is great, but he also is, he has a more, like, religious solution. He has the leap of faith that's ultimately, like, the, um, his, his, his main thing. Uh, whereas for Camus, he, he, uh, he's famously said, like, "I want to live with what I know and that alone." Like, "I don't want to leap into anything, I don't want to make, rely on some potential, like, god or other dimension or some other, like, unreachable truth that may be out there and that I must just have faith in. I just want to live with what I know and that alone." Um, so yeah, he, I, I, am, I'm best familiar with his book, uh, The Myth of Sisyphus, in which he kind of explains the, the myth of Sisyphus, which, um, the guy who was punished by the gods has to push a rock up the mountain, see it roll back down, and do it all over again. And he kind of explains, like, it's, it's only tragic if he is conscious about that fact. If, because if Sisyphus, like, if he doesn't know the rock is gonna go down, like, he's gonna go up each time knowing with the hope that he might succeed this time. But if he knows, like, this is his fate, like, he's gonna do this eternally and then there's nothing else, then...... that's the real tragedy, like, having to be aware of your predicament without being able to do anything about it. And so, I think he takes that premise, which is then sort of the, the metaphor for life. Like, we know we go into this world, we're gonna work, we're gonna sleep, we're gonna do other stuff, maybe have some fun, and at some point, we're gonna die. Like, we, we know, like, we see the whole game that's been laid out before us, like, in general terms. And I think that Camus is mostly trying to find the freedom within it instead of trying to leap towards something else, towards some grander ideal or belief. And he also really has the, um, I think the idea of rebellion. Like, we can maybe... we cannot escape our fate, but we can rebel against it, which, um, I thought was nice. Just basically give a, uh, like, give a middle finger to the universe. (laughs) And, and I, I don't have his work, like, fresh in my mind, but, uh, I, I do like that idea of just, uh... because that's, uh, uh, it's a token of, like, a very fundamental freedom to just see this whole universe with everything, like, all the, the nothingness that it kind of impresses upon you. Like, because if you're really taking the weight of the universe, it really seems to try to make you feel, like, absolutely insignificant. Like, you are this (laughs) tiny human that exists for, like, m- nothing. And even in, in the span of, like... even in the span of, like, our planet, like, it's nothing. Like, there's been millions of years before us, there's a million years that's gonna be after us, and then there's the scale of the universe, it's gonna be even worse. So, um, everything about the universe screams to you, like, you're insignificant. And then to say, like, as that insignificant person, like, "I'm gonna make this have meaning anyway. I'm gonna find significance anyway," that's a very powerful act. At least, that's, I think, what Camus, um, is kind of about, and what's, what I personally also find really inspiring about him.

   10. CWChris Williamson45:06

       They say that in Interstellar as well though, right? The "rage, rage against the dying of the light."

   11. TLTom van der Linden45:11

       Mm. Yeah, yeah.

   12. CWChris Williamson45:11

       That's the same sort of look.

   13. TLTom van der Linden45:14

       Yeah, I guess it comes down to the same concept. Yeah.

   14. CWChris Williamson45:16

       Yeah, everything... And, and s- so is the line between, or is the, um, the reason that we must imagine Sisyphus being happy-

   15. TLTom van der Linden45:24

       Mm-hmm.

   16. CWChris Williamson45:24

       ... is that (clears throat) telling people who are aware of their own mortality that even though you know this game is going to end-

   17. TLTom van der Linden45:31

       Mm-hmm.

   18. CWChris Williamson45:32

       ... that you have to be able to play the game in a good way?

   19. TLTom van der Linden45:36

       I think so, or, or at least you're capable of doing so. Um, like, he, he... we must imagine Sisyphus happy because he... there is freedom for him to be happy. Like, he can defy his fate in that, um, in, in, in that moment. Um, I'm not, I'm, I'm not sure exactly how he wrote it down, but he... I think he describes towards the end of that book, like, the moment that Sisyphus walks down the hill, like, waiting for his whole fate to start all over again. And then if he finds, like, a moment of happiness in that, during that walk down, then in that moment, he basically defies his whole punishment. He still... they've a- they've essentially failed at punishing him because he still, he still, uh, he's still able to be himself. He's still able to express that-

   20. CWChris Williamson46:26

       He's taking a sliver-

   21. TLTom van der Linden46:27

       Yeah.

   22. CWChris Williamson46:27

       ... of gratitude or pleasure from whatever it-

   23. TLTom van der Linden46:29

       Yeah.

   24. CWChris Williamson46:30

       This is... I, I had a discussion with a friend. (laughs) I have a friend-

   25. TLTom van der Linden46:33

       (laughs)

   26. CWChris Williamson46:33

       ... who's a philosopher who, and I quote, "is trying nihilism as a life philosophy." Like-

   27. TLTom van der Linden46:38

       Okay.

   28. CWChris Williamson46:38

       ... consciously just decided. He was like, "Well, I've had a crack at a few other things and they didn't seem to work, so I'm just going to try nihilism." Uh, and I was like, "How's it going?" Uh, and I don't really know what you're supposed to say. Like, what does, what does, "Nihilism is going well as a life philosophy" mean? I'm not really too sure. But he, uh, was telling me about David Benatar, who is one of the, um, antinatalist philosophers. Uh, and the argument of antinatalists is that life is filled with so much suffering that it is basically a crime to bring any human into the world, I think. Uh-

   29. TLTom van der Linden47:15

       Mm-hmm.

   30. CWChris Williamson47:15

       ... something like that. Don't have kids. Don't have kids because life's terrible. Um, and I, I try... I really sort of tried to look at it from the opposite perspective, and I didn't realize that that was part of the myth of Sisyphus that, well, hang on, you can say that a life of almost endless suffering, which it isn't, like it's, it's-
7. 51:53 – 59:31

   Analysing ‘Don’t Look Up’

   1. TLTom van der Linden51:53

      it made sense.

   2. CWChris Williamson51:53

      You also looked at Don't Look Up, and I've got a, a closet obsession with-

   3. TLTom van der Linden52:00

      Mm.

   4. CWChris Williamson52:00

      ... existential risk. So-

   5. TLTom van der Linden52:02

      Mm-hmm.

   6. CWChris Williamson52:02

      ... one of my friends messaged me and was like, "Dude, I'm not gonna tell you anything about this film, but watch it and tell me what you think it was about." What do you-

   7. TLTom van der Linden52:10

      Yeah.

   8. CWChris Williamson52:10

      ... think Don't Look Up was about?

   9. TLTom van der Linden52:14

      Yeah, so for me, when I made the video, I thought it was a- or when I went, went into the film in t- in, in first place, like, I... To me it was obvious that it was about climate change, because that's also kind of how it was promoted. Like, Leonardo DiCaprio himself, he's really into environmentalism, and he obviously really promoted the film in that context. And I think even the, uh, director did some tweets about... That at least, like, vaguely emphasized like, "Okay, this is maybe the, the angle through which we're, um, approaching this film." Um, obviously it's, like, about other stuff as well, but that's, like, the, the, the main metaphor with the comet that's set to strike the planet. But, um, yeah, that- that's kind of, like, I went into it with that assumption, so naturally that's what I read into it. But I was surprised when I made the video about it, um... For context, I did a video on, um, kind of questioning to what extent it was an effective metaphor for climate change and where it was kind of, like, struggling a little bit or, like, failing to capture some nuances, and why it did so. Um, but I was actually surprised to see afterwards that there were people who didn't at all think about climate change when they saw that film. So that, to me, that came actually as a bit of a surprise, because I thought it was so, uh, so on the nose in the way they, uh, they presented the film, and then the film itself, of course. To me it seemed obvious, but now I'm thinking like, "Oh, it's pro- probably because that's what I went in looking for."

   10. CWChris Williamson53:49

       The frame-

   11. TLTom van der Linden53:49

       Yeah.

   12. CWChris Williamson53:50

       You, your priors, you'd already been primed for that. Yeah. So again, I, I hadn't seen any of those tweets or whatever, uh, or, or Leonardo DiCaprio's promotion. But there's one scene in it where Jonah Hill's character, uh, th- they're sat in the, the White House.

   13. TLTom van der Linden54:03

       Mm-hmm.

   14. CWChris Williamson54:04

       And they're talking about the fact that, "Look, you, you're not taking this seriously. This is, the, the, the asteroid is gonna come, it's gonna kill everybody."

   15. TLTom van der Linden54:13

       Mm-hmm.

   16. CWChris Williamson54:13

       Uh, and Jonah Hill starts listing off all of the big existential risks. And he says, uh, "You know, every single week there's somebody in here telling us about a, a, an rogue AI algorithm, or a nanobot, or an engineered pandemic-"

   17. TLTom van der Linden54:27

       Mm-hmm.

   18. CWChris Williamson54:28

       "... or a w- climate change or whatever." And that, to me, because I had my priors and my priors were make it the film about existential risk, about proper ex- existential risk, was that's the nod to what's going on. And even if it's not, it was... I found it really, really nice that they had that section in there. Because I do think-

   19. TLTom van der Linden54:46

       Mm-hmm.

   20. CWChris Williamson54:47

       ... you know, I, I had this big... I said, this conversation with Peter Thiel and Alex, uh, Epstein at s- this event over the weekend. Uh, and when he's talking about fossil fuels and the future of climate change, and, and energy and energy costs and stuff like that...... and I keep on wanting, like, I love the conversation, I think Alex's work is fascinating. But I keep on wanting to be like, "Why is everybody talking about the climate when we've got, you know, artificial intelligence and, and engineered pandemics and natural pandemics," and we've literally just had one that's occurred.

   21. TLTom van der Linden55:16

       Mm-hmm.

   22. CWChris Williamson55:16

       Uh, and I do think that increasingly, hopefully, we'll see films that are more symbolic, trying to get people to understand x-risk-

   23. TLTom van der Linden55:25

       Mm-hmm.

   24. CWChris Williamson55:25

       ... in a more well-rounded way, like, Don't Look Up. Because the fact that it's open to inter- at least partially open to interpretation means that it starts to get people thinking-

   25. TLTom van der Linden55:33

       Yeah.

   26. CWChris Williamson55:33

       ... in this sort of a way.

   27. TLTom van der Linden55:35

       Yeah. Uh, I had a lot of comments of, from people who saw it, saw it indeed as a, uh, metaphor for the pandemic, um, which I kind of, I thought about it, but I also knew the film was probably written before the pandemic happened, so, I knew that was not the author's intention. Um, but it does, it fit well to a c- to a certain extent, because I do believe the pandemic is a sort of microcosm for climate change, um, uh, in the sense that it's a, um, an, an external element, like, out of nature that's kind of invading our, like, human society and wreaking havoc, and kind of like, uh, confronting us with our, uh, the way we kind of thought we could go a- and have this lifestyle. We could go, like, have this global, like, everyone's traveling back and forth, it doesn't matter, but then there's, you introduce this one little virus and you can see how... It's the same thing that the, that you, uh, catch the story about that ship that got stuck in the-

   28. CWChris Williamson56:42

       Yeah, the Evergreen.

   29. TLTom van der Linden56:42

       ... Suez Canal, I think? Yeah. How, how, like, such a tiny event, like, so- such a tiny screw in the machine could, like, uh, mess everything up. Like, um, I think it's a, was a, it's, it's also such a reminder of how fragile our system really is and how much we've actually come to take for granted, even though we probably should not have done that.

   30. CWChris Williamson57:06

       It's a function of the interdependence as well, right? That-
8. 59:31 – 1:08:23

   The Convenience of Present Culture

   1. CWChris Williamson59:31

   2. TLTom van der Linden59:32

      Yeah.

   3. CWChris Williamson59:32

      ... a broader timeline as well, I think one of the problems-

   4. TLTom van der Linden59:35

      Yeah. Yeah, definitely.

   5. CWChris Williamson59:36

      ... one of the problems that we have is that life's become so convenient recently, that-

   6. TLTom van der Linden59:40

      Yeah.

   7. CWChris Williamson59:41

      ... we're hyper-attuned to any minor reduction in that convenience.

   8. TLTom van der Linden59:46

      Mm-hmm.

   9. CWChris Williamson59:46

      The fact that, uh, your car, your new car is going to take 14 weeks to arrive instead of 10 weeks to arrive because of supply chain issues to get the particular type of metallic paint and-

   10. TLTom van der Linden59:58

       Mm-hmm.

   11. CWChris Williamson59:58

       ... leather seats that you wanted to go in it, it feels like a, a huge inconvenience, but only because of how hyper-attuned we've become to being able to have things (snaps fingers) as soon as we want.

   12. TLTom van der Linden1:00:08

       Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We're completely living within our own sort of time frames, which, uh, I was actually watching a video today on YouTube from the channel, uh, Our Changing Climate, which is kind of interesting from a, uh, like, environmentalist perspective. But he, uh, also pointed out, like, this, that maybe at some point we need to go back to living more in tune with like the, the waves of, or the currents of, like, the planet. And so, like, when you go to a supermarket, like, maybe we shouldn't expect that everything is-

   13. CWChris Williamson1:00:40

       In season-

   14. TLTom van der Linden1:00:40

       ... always there, like-

   15. CWChris Williamson1:00:41

       ... all the time.

   16. TLTom van der Linden1:00:41

       ... all year round.

   17. CWChris Williamson1:00:41

       Yes.

   18. TLTom van der Linden1:00:41

       Like, from everywhere around the planet, like we've-

   19. CWChris Williamson1:00:43

       Yes.

   20. TLTom van der Linden1:00:44

       ... we've grown, like, so disconnected from the way, like, the natural ebb and flow of, that you can, that you find in nature and, like, the concept of seasonality, and, um. Also with work, like, we were kind of working, like, the whole year around the clock, uh, like 9:00 to 5:00, even though that doesn't always make sense. Like, maybe in the summertime we feel more energetic than in the wintertime, maybe we should, like, account for that, or...

   21. CWChris Williamson1:01:07

       That's a good point. I've never thought of that.

   22. TLTom van der Linden1:01:08

       Yeah.

   23. CWChris Williamson1:01:09

       Yeah, well-

   24. TLTom van der Linden1:01:10

       But yeah, there's a lot of those things where we are kind of like disconnected. We are completely living in these mechanical terms instead of, like, going more with, like, in terms of, like, flow or, like, other elements that you find in nature, but that we have sort of, uh, repressed or, like, done away with in our own lives or in our society.

   25. CWChris Williamson1:01:30

       Well, we never know when we get mastery over something, what is baby and what is bath water that we're throwing out, right?

   26. TLTom van der Linden1:01:37

       Mm-hmm. Yeah.

   27. CWChris Williamson1:01:37

       You know, what is it that... And this is one of the most compelling arguments for conservatism that I can think of, the fact that progress doesn't always mean making things better. You know, you can change things and very easily make them a hell of a lot worse. I think that-

   28. TLTom van der Linden1:01:51

       Mm-hmm.

   29. CWChris Williamson1:01:52

       ... you know, there's probably a pretty easy argument to be made that, uh, reductions in norms around casual sex have probably fed into something which was immediately gratifying, but longer term, for most people individually and collectively, probably doesn't make them actually feel all that much better. Uh, and yet-

   30. TLTom van der Linden1:02:10

       Mm-hmm.
9. 1:08:23 – 1:14:52

   Tom’s Recommended YouTubers

   1. CWChris Williamson1:08:23

      what do you watch? So, uh, you know, like Stories of Old, your channel, which will be linked in the show notes below, people can go check that out.

   2. TLTom van der Linden1:08:29

      Mm-hmm.

   3. CWChris Williamson1:08:29

      It's awesome. Uh, what else do you really-

   4. TLTom van der Linden1:08:32

      I also have a podcast now, by the way. I'm not sure if you've listened to that.

   5. CWChris Williamson1:08:35

      What's that called?

   6. TLTom van der Linden1:08:35

      It's called Cinema of Meaning. It's, uh, we launched it, I, I'm doing it together with Thomas Flight, who's another, um, YouTube video essayist, uh, really smart guy too. Um, we launched, uh, this March, so it's, uh, kind of new. Uh, it's a weekly podcast that, uh, each week we discuss, like, a single film, and we really want to dive into, like, the meanings and philosophies and, uh, the kind of the stuff that we're talking about now, but then specifically tied to understanding, uh, uh, an individual film. Um, so yeah, that, that's something that we're doing as well.

   7. CWChris Williamson1:09:10

      Well, congratulations. Wel- welcome to the, welcome to the industry.

   8. TLTom van der Linden1:09:13

      Yeah, thanks.

   9. CWChris Williamson1:09:13

      Who else do you watch then online? What are the YouTube channels, if people think, "Oh, this, this Tom guy sounds all right." What else do you watch-

   10. TLTom van der Linden1:09:20

       Mm-hmm.

   11. CWChris Williamson1:09:20

       ... that you think people should check out?

   12. TLTom van der Linden1:09:23

       Um, I watch a bunch of different stuff. Um, like, like are you d- you g- are you asking me, like, channels similar to mine or like-

   13. CWChris Williamson1:09:35

       Uh, no, whatever you think-

   14. TLTom van der Linden1:09:36

       ... channels that are mine interests, because I have, like-

   15. CWChris Williamson1:09:37

       Yeah. Just whatever you think.

   16. TLTom van der Linden1:09:39

       ... vastly different interests than, like-

   17. CWChris Williamson1:09:39

       Whatever you think that people need to know more about.

   18. TLTom van der Linden1:09:41

       Yeah.

   19. CWChris Williamson1:09:41

       You can shill whoever you want.

   20. TLTom van der Linden1:09:43

       Yeah. Okay. So there's one guy, he's also from the Netherlands, uh, but he makes content in English, um, that I recently came across, he's called Martijn Dolaard.

   21. CWChris Williamson1:09:53

       Okay. Yeah.

   22. TLTom van der Linden1:09:54

       Uh-

   23. CWChris Williamson1:09:54

       No one's going to be able to spell that, Tom.

   24. TLTom van der Linden1:09:56

       Yeah. Uh, he has a video series, uh, it's called Two Years on a Bike. If you search for that, I'm sure you'll find it. It's a four-part video series where he basically accounts the journey he made on his bicycle from Vancouver to Patagonia, I think it was. Um, but it was really just, like, this great exercise in cinematography and storytelling. And he is now doing a series in which he has bought, like, a cabin in the Italian Alps that he's really just, just, uh, renovating from scratch. And, um, the interesting thing is, it's not really about anything. He makes these long vlogs, but you see a lot of them, he ... A lot of them is just he, or just him doing everyday stuff. Like, h- he's like, "Today, I'm going to do the plumbing or whatever. Today I'm going to build a temporary shed while I work on the other cabin." And so it's a really ... To me, it's kind of like, it took me by surprise. Like, I was watching it and I, I was thinking at first like, "Oh, this is kind of boring." Like, I was even skipping through a little bit. But at some point I kind of tuned into what he was doing, and it became this ... Really, it's almost like an escape into, into someone's life who is more, like, connected to, or more directly connected to his labor and to, to the world, to say it, like, a bit cheesily (laughs) . Um-

   25. CWChris Williamson1:11:19

       It seems like a peaceful way to-

   26. TLTom van der Linden1:11:22

       Yeah.

   27. CWChris Williamson1:11:22

       ... to be.

   28. TLTom van der Linden1:11:23

       Yeah. That's, uh, he, he really captures that sense of peace of, like ... And, uh, he, he instantly m- makes you want to go, like, into your garden or whatever-

   29. CWChris Williamson1:11:32

       (laughs) .

   30. TLTom van der Linden1:11:32

       ... and, and work on something with your hands.
10. 1:14:52 – 1:16:41

    Where to Find Tom

    1. CWChris Williamson1:14:52

       If people want to find out other bits that you do online, where should they go?

    2. TLTom van der Linden1:14:56

       Um, I don't really have a website or anything. I have a Patreon page that also links to, like, some of the stuff that I have, like the YouTube, um. I'm not sure if Cinema of Meaning, the podcast is on there, but you can find that wherever you're probably listening to this podcast. So, uh, yeah, you can check that out as well and, um, um, also on Nebula, the streaming platform. I'm not sure if you're, you've heard of that one. Uh, that's a, like a creator-owned streaming platform. I'm like, uh, it's something we created with like a bunch of YouTubers. They came together and they sort of, uh, kind of through our own agency and we started our own streaming platform that's, it's, it's basically like, uh, Netflix, but with YouTubers, like you pay a monthly fee instead of, um, having ads. So it's the, the experience is completely ad-free, and so, uh, we also get a much, like, fairer, like, share of the revenue. So that's, um, kind of the, the principle of it. And, uh, a lot of us, uh, including myself, have been posting, like, some exclusive stuff there or like extended videos. Uh, you also see like, uh, you always see like special, uh, edit vide- uh, specially edited videos without like the sponsor bits at the end because like, again, it's completely ad-free, so that includes the, uh, sponsor you normally see in the video itself. Uh, so yeah, you can definitely check that out as well.

    3. CWChris Williamson1:16:19

       Dope, man. I appreciate you. Thanks for today.

    4. TLTom van der Linden1:16:21

       Yeah, thanks.

    5. CWChris Williamson1:16:22

       What's happening people? Thank you very much for tuning in. If you enjoyed that episode, then press here for a selection of the best clips from the podcast over the last few weeks. And don't forget to subscribe. Peace.

Episode duration: 1:16:41