Modern WisdomHow AI and TikTok Are Breaking the Music Industry - Rick Beato
EVERY SPOKEN WORD
150 min read · 30,418 words- 0:00 – 2:21
Imagine If You Were The Guy Who Killed Beyoncé
- RBRick Beato
I just saw this video of Beyoncé the other night. She was up in the-
- CWChris Williamson
Oh, in a car? In the car-
- RBRick Beato
Yeah, and the car started going...
- CWChris Williamson
Dude, could you imagine if you were the guy that killed Beyoncé?
- RBRick Beato
(laughs) .
- CWChris Williamson
Oh, you could, you... She was stood on top of a car. Beyoncé dies in Eddie Guerrera-style catastrophe.
- RBRick Beato
It, I was thinking, uh, d- I was wondering, like, what in the world is she thinking while she's up there? She's gotta be scared. I mean, it, she was up really high.
- CWChris Williamson
Is she harnessed in?
- RBRick Beato
I, I think that she was.
- CWChris Williamson
Gotta have some sort of backup.
- RBRick Beato
Has to.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah. I mean-
- RBRick Beato
I mean, they have to have-
- CWChris Williamson
... could you imagine the fucking insurance policy-
- RBRick Beato
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... on Beyoncé?
- RBRick Beato
Has to be. Oh, yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
It would bankrupt-
- RBRick Beato
But that was-
- CWChris Williamson
It would bankrupt a country.
- RBRick Beato
That was crazy to see that, to imagine some type of a, a problem like that. You know that that's not gonna happen again, though.
- CWChris Williamson
Uh, Ronnie Radke, one of his... Was it his drummer who got second-degree burns, uh, from flames that came, uh, d- somewhere? And he just fired everybody. "Everybody's fired except for the band. Everybody's fired. No one's allowed to do this again. Run it back, we'll get somebody new."
- RBRick Beato
You know, you're, when you're, when you're dealing with that kind of stuff, w- a- any type of pyro... When, when I was at the Metallica show, I was 30 feet from the stage, but, but at the same level. And when they... And th- and I asked Kirk, I said, "How do you know that... to kn- What happens if you're somewhere you're not supposed to be?" He goes, "Oh, they're in our ears saying, 'Okay, pyro's coming, pyro's coming.'"
- CWChris Williamson
"Get the fuck away." (laughs)
- RBRick Beato
"Get to the..." No. "Get to a m- get to a mic."
- CWChris Williamson
Oh, because all the mics are in safe-
- RBRick Beato
Yes.
- CWChris Williamson
... areas?
- RBRick Beato
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Right. Okay.
- 2:21 – 10:24
What Goes Into Making A Pop Song?
- RBRick Beato
- CWChris Williamson
What do most people not understand about the process of making a pop song now? I think everybody's got this allure of, of music. It really is pop... Music is moving into pop culture. It's crossing over. People are seeing behind the scenes. Instagram stories, relationships, tabloid journalism, whether it's from TikTok or t- you know, the citizen journalists or YouTube channels doing reactions. But I think that the process of getting to the stage of, "This song is now live," seems to have changed quite a lot. So, what is it that people don't necessarily get about what that process looks like now?
- RBRick Beato
So, I just made this video where I was talking about the people that are behind the scenes that help write the songs, and in many cases, write the songs. And people have the impression that because s- somebody sings a song, that they are the writer on it, or if they have co-writers, that the co-writers are, are th- a minor part of this, right? But the- but in reality, most pop songwriters, not all, but most, have very little to do with their songs, other than choosing them. They might come in and say, "Okay, I have an idea for a story of a song," they'll describe it, and then these professional songwriters will help them realize that idea. Or, the people might have the song completely done and they come in. Y- h- hard to generalize, but... Does Taylor Swift write her, write all of her lyrics?She probably writes most of her lyrics, I would think. But, um, but typically, um, it used to be that when, when you... In the 1980s, rock bands, there would, there were very few people that were songwriters that worked with artists. Desmond Child was one. He worked with Bon Jovi, he worked with Kiss. He w- and he would co-write. He was a, a specialist that would write with rock bands. But it was very rare. Rock bands wrote their own songs. And s- a lot of pop artists wrote their own songs, but, you know, Madonna always had co-writers. This has been a thing since the 1950s. People have had, had songwriters, they've had co-writers. The thing now about pop music is that you have to be your own promotion department, basically, to be really successful. So, you have to be, you kinda have to be an expert in social media.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- RBRick Beato
And I see people that, um... Um, one of the people is Tate McRae is a huge pop star, and she started on YouTube. She knows how to make her own videos for... And she'll make 20, 30 TikToks for a song, for a single. You can't beat that for advertising. And, and people that have that advantage, they can just put up their phone, uh, they can lip sync, they can do a dance. They can cut the stuff themselves on their phone and upload it. And you're a big pop star if you can do that? That's a tremendous advantage, and it... This is how songs become hits, because if you don't have a viral moment with a song, that's, you know... Th- th- the days of the record labels creating your career are pretty much over. Yes, they can help, but, um, but it's very difficult if you don't have something that's on TikTok blowing up.... to, uh, to have a successful single.
- CWChris Williamson
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- RBRick Beato
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
It's vocals and a guitar and programmed drums. How- why- what were the fifth and... There's Chris Martin, then there's the other one.
- RBRick Beato
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
I think there's two more. Who the fuckin'... Who are these 11 people in the room with them?
- RBRick Beato
Well, I always wonder that too. Like, who are these people? Coldplay, the first... To me, the first two Coldpa- play records are great records, really. The second record to me is an absolutely brilliant record. Um, as people get older, I've made videos about this, that, uh, that once people hit 30 or so, artists-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- RBRick Beato
... they begin to, um, lose the spark, if you will. The Beatles broke up the year that Lennon and, uh, Ringo turned 30. Otherwise, Paul McCartney was 28 when they broke up. George Harrison was 27. These guys were young guys. They did 12 albums over the course of eight years, uh, some of the most important songs ever written, and they were, they weren't even 30. They literally broke up. Lennon turned 30 on November 9th, 1970, they were already broken up by then.
- CWChris Williamson
How much do you think that's due to the fact that they were 30, and how much of that do you think is due to the fact that they released 12 albums in the space of eight years? Because it seems to me that the pace of release, I know you've talked about this, is now slower.
- RBRick Beato
Yep.
- CWChris Williamson
That people are producing an album every 18 months, something like that. Maybe if you're cranking, right, and then tour on it once, twice, come back, run it, run it again. Um, well, that would, you know, extend... That... You're talking about a 20-year career off the back of the same pacing. So how much of it do you think is, I don't know, some sort of wall that creatives hit at 30, and how much of it is, "I've just exhausted my, my juice"?
- RBRick Beato
I think it, I think it's both those things. So one of the things, if you think about writing songs is like working out, right? So The Beatles in 1965, th- they released the, the record Rubber Soul on August 6th, 1965. Then on December 3rd, they released, or they released he- Help, I'm sorry, and then they released Rubber Soul on December 3rd, and they released Revolver on August 5th. So in 364 days, they released three 14-song albums.
- CWChris Williamson
That's crazy.
- RBRick Beato
So they wrote, recorded, and released-
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- RBRick Beato
... and they toured, three records in one calendar year. That's insane. But, and they, and they had so many hit songs on it, but that's like working out, you know? It's, the more you work out... Whereas nowadays, if you go, most bands now, they do a record, they go on tour for 18 months, they tour for two years, whatever. Then, then it's, you're kinda out of shape writing, 'cause when you're on the road, most people don't like to write on the road. So what do you have to do? You come back, you put down a bunch of ideas, and, "Nah, those aren't very good." That's the- they starting to get back in shape again, you know?
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- RBRick Beato
Takes a couple weeks to...
- CWChris Williamson
How did The Beatles do it?
- RBRick Beato
The Beatles were just, they... Well, first of all, they were so famous that they couldn't do anything else. They were stuck in hotel rooms a lot, I guess. Um, and they had incredible competition between Lennon and McCartney, and George Harrison too, to, to write better and better songs. Plus they were competitive with bands like The Beach Boys as well. But, um, that... Beatles are kind of a unique, unique case.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah, it's, it's like, I don't know, talking about Usain Bolt's ability to run fast or something.
- 10:24 – 23:41
Producer Driven Song vs Artist Written Song
- CWChris Williamson
- RBRick Beato
Right.
- CWChris Williamson
Uh, so just explain, how would you identify or categorize the difference between a producer-driven song and an artist-driven song? Is, is there such a thing? Or does it just, uh, is it just, uh, meritocracy and whatever sounds best at the end of the day is, is what matters?
- RBRick Beato
Producer-driven songs are songs like, um, would be something like Since U Been Gone by Kelly Clarkson. That was Max Martin and Dr. Luke wrote this song. They recorded ev- they wrote the song, they wrote the lyrics, they recorded everything, she came in and sang it, and that's a producer-driven song. Uh, literally written by the two guys that produced it, including the lyrics. So, um, most music nowadays, or a lot of music, is producer driven. Whereas, um, people come up with a track, whether it's country music, whether it's, uh, pop music, even rock music, there's some bed track first. Now, to be fair, historically, almost every songwriter writes the music first. They sing a melody and then they write lyrics to the melody, Elton John being the exception. Bernie Kop- Taupin was Elton's lyricist, they co-wrote the stuff. Bernie would finish the lyrics, give them to Elton, Elton would sit at the piano, improvise the song, sing it, re- record it on a half inch or on a DAT, and then, uh, and then they would cut the song.He would basically improvise it to the lyrics he had. I mean, this is very rare. I think, uh, uh, in the Beatles catalog, from what I know, there was one song across the universe where John Lennon had the lyrics first. So-
- CWChris Williamson
I mean, he's like the Juice Wrld of the pop-
- RBRick Beato
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... era.
- RBRick Beato
Yeah. So this is- this is- when- when I went to Nashville to do some songwriting, I told you I had a- a- a- one number one song, the only country song I ever wrote. But then I- I went to Nashville and I- they- if you have a number one song, they put you in with all the A-list songwriters. So I went there and I, uh, in- for probably three months in 2014. And I wrote with all the top songwriters in Nashville. So the first session, I went in and it was always three people. And I was like, "Why is it three people?" "Well, that's the way that we do it here." And I was like, "Why?" "Well, because we want to involve, you know, at the time, as many publishing companies as possible, different publishing companies." So I was signed to Sony/ATV. There was a guy from- there'd be a writer from Warner Chapel or maybe two writers from Warner Chapel. And you get in a room, I was a track guy, so I came in with my laptop, and I would have five tracks that I programmed drums, I played guitar, I played banjo, I played whatever on, and I had a full track. "What do you think of this?" "Uh, it's interesting. Um, what else you got?" Play them the next song. "Oh, I like that. I think I might have a chorus line." Everybody opens their lap- laptops. "What do you think of this?" And then they're looking through, typing through.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- RBRick Beato
"Oh, I got this line from someone else," and then they would have to be included in on the songwriting too or whatever. So that would be, uh, that was in Nashville. And- but at that time period, that's when track guys started.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- RBRick Beato
The track guys are basically the producers that would come in and- and, um, uh, that would be a producer-driven song. And almost everything you hear on country radio now is producer-driv- driven.
- CWChris Williamson
I don't- I don't think people... And I certainly didn't. I don't think people understand just how much of a music factory Nashville is. It is a-
- RBRick Beato
Always has been.
- CWChris Williamson
It is the Chinese sweatshop (laughs) of music production.
- RBRick Beato
People go in and write, you know, they write five songs a week.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- RBRick Beato
It's amazing. It's real-
- CWChris Williamson
I have a friend-
- RBRick Beato
It's really amazing.
- CWChris Williamson
I've- I've a friend who produces at least five songs every single week.
- RBRick Beato
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- RBRick Beato
I went into- to... Back then, in 20- in 2014, I have a lot of friends in Nashville. I know all the... I have friends at publishing companies, at record labels, everything, and I know a lot of session players. And, um, when I first started going to Nashville back, you know, 10 years ago, I sat in on some songwriting demo sessions. They don't do them as much anymore. And what they do is they have these session players, about five or six of them, they'd have an engineer that wa- was also the producer, and they would produce demos. And they'd have a song- they'd had songwriters come in and do three songs, a s- so a songwriter would come in, or two- two or three songwriters would come in, they'd stand in the control room, they'd hand out sheets with the- with the tracks or- s- or- or the- the- the guy that was running the session, they'd listen to it once, and they would write down the- their parts, and then they cut it.
- CWChris Williamson
These guys would just cut it there and then?
- RBRick Beato
And that was it, yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
I've heard that these session musicians are like the Navy SEALs.
- RBRick Beato
Oh my God, they're amazing.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah. One... Yeah, got it, and then that's it. One take, two takes, and then they fuck- they're in the next room.
- RBRick Beato
It's so... They play so well. So I did a video where I- I, uh, I- I have a good friend, Tom Vukovac, he's one of the top guys, like the top guitar session guy in Nashville. So I was going up there and I said, "Hey, Tom, I wanna do a video where I wanna get... Can- get a few of your players and we'll- we'll sit in a room and we'll just talk and everything." He's like, "Why don't we do a song? Why don't you just produce a track and I'll get my guys to come in and play on it?"
- 23:41 – 29:52
What Do Pop Stars Bring To The Table Today?
- CWChris Williamson
what is it then that a modern pop star brings to the table? Like, primarily what is their value add now?
- RBRick Beato
Depends on who it is. To me, somebody like Billie Eilish, her and her brother, that's a rarity, really, where they create all the music on their own. Finneas plays a lot of the, I mean, you know, they, they co-write all the songs, and they're a self-contained band, unit, whatever you want to call 'em. Uh, and...... it's hard to think of other, of other artists that are pop artists that, um, that can function like that without out- outside songwriters.
- CWChris Williamson
Okay. So if you're not Billie Eilish-
- RBRick Beato
If you're not Billie Eilish-
- CWChris Williamson
... what do you, what are you bringing to the table?
- RBRick Beato
Well, it's, it's gotten to the point where you need to be famous in order to be a big pop star. You need to be famous prior to being a big pop star. So think of all the Disney people, from Demi Lovato, Hilary Duff, uh, who? Selena Gomez. Uh-
- CWChris Williamson
Jake Paul.
- RBRick Beato
Yeah. Jake- (laughs) There you go. Um, and Sabrina Carpenter. So the D- Jake Paul, that's funny. Uh, the s- the, the, these Disney stars that were already famous, and then you put them together with songwriters and-
- CWChris Williamson
Oh, Addison what's-her-face.
- RBRick Beato
Addis- Addison Rae is a TikTok, TikToker, uh, which is sa- she's famous already. She's got 80 million followers on TikTok. I'm re- re- waiting for Charli D'Amelio. I don't know if she can sing or not, but she would, you know...
- CWChris Williamson
Someone must be eyeing her up to get singing lessons.
- RBRick Beato
Charli D'Amelio, to me, is kind of like a pop star too, these people that can dance. This is a, this is interesting to me. Athleticism is, has been part of pop music forever, James Brown, people that could really dance. Michael Jackson, uh, Prince, uh, then the modern pop stars like Tate McRae. Her mom is a dance teacher, she's a professional dancer.
- CWChris Williamson
Fuck me, I saw Benson Boone do a back flip off a stage a couple of weeks ago.
- RBRick Beato
Yeah, these people are, are, are athletes.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- RBRick Beato
Th- And you have to be... Dancing is a massive part of pop music.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- RBRick Beato
There's, there are routines that you have to beat, from Lady Gaga to Beyoncé to whoever.
- CWChris Williamson
MGK now?
- RBRick Beato
Yes. There you go.
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- RBRick Beato
So it's, uh, um... And I really respect the athleticism of these people.
- CWChris Williamson
Right. But what's still not, at, at no point here have we said, "You know, the tonality, the-"
- RBRick Beato
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
"... ability to understand form and musical function and the, uh, deep knowledge of where this comes from and control of the voice, the vibrato." You know, like we've... (laughs) As of yet, I haven't heard you talk about anything to do with songwriting capacity, creativity, voi- vocal, uh, like, knowhow.
- RBRick Beato
Well, there's, there's plenty of people that are-
- CWChris Williamson
Ed Sheeran.
- RBRick Beato
Ed Sheeran's a s- a real songwriter. He can write his own songs, and he's a pro. Not only can he write his own songs, but Ed can go out and play 'em with an acoustic guitar. He can loop, he can do stuff, yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
And a fucking loop pedal, yeah, exactly.
- RBRick Beato
Amazing.
- 29:52 – 38:52
What Trends Are Dominating Currently?
- CWChris Williamson
What are the trends musically that are dominating right now? Y- uh, people can have this sense that they understand where the scenes are at, but what are you seeing? What are the sort of dominant m- oral themes that are going on?
- RBRick Beato
I don't know if there is a dominant genre or dominant trend right now. Um, everybody is, is algorithmically siloed at this point, and I don't see that that...... uh, there's very few shared experiences that people have as far as with music nowadays.
- CWChris Williamson
Which you might have got with radio.
- RBRick Beato
Yes. Once radio stopped being something that was, uh, w- w- stopped being dominant, then, uh, people just didn't have any shared narratives. It... Go back to, to, you know, up until 2000 or so. Or, we'll, we'll go back to Nirvana, 'cause Nirvana was a, a change, uh, a band that really changed radio formats, changed everything. So, Nirvana comes out, um, glam metal, hair metal, whatever people wanna call it, was huge in the '80s. All of a sudden, MTV comes out, and I remember it, 1991, first time I saw the video for Smells Like Teen Spirit. I was like, "What is that?" I didn't understand what he was saying, but I knew it was something game-changing. And it, um, it spawned, uh, alternative mus- I mean, it, it literally, overnight, changed music, killed pretty much all the hair bands except for Guns N' Roses, um, and maybe a couple others. Um, but that was a... That was still part of the music business where you make a record, put out a single three months before the record comes out. You go to radio, uh, with your, with the record labels, um, radio promotion team. They go out to their pres- y- you know, to their regions that they, uh, you know, that they are, uh, in charge of. Somebody comes to the South, they go to Atlanta, they go to 99X, whatever, they try and get the program director. "Here's a new single from the, this band. We're trying to get on the radio." And then you start getting traction, then you, then if, if it's doing well, you hire independent promoters. There was a whole system of things that happened and, and there were budgets to do these things. "Okay, so you're gonna get a... You know, we have a budget to hire indies to go and promote the record, and if we can get it on KROQ, it's gonna... You put it over the top, so we're gonna pay extra money to get the person. This person can get it on KROQ as just..." You know. That's the old music business, basically run like the mob.
- CWChris Williamson
I was gonna say, it sounds very, sort of, nepotistic.
- RBRick Beato
Yeah. It's, uh... You know, to have a hit single back in the day, you know, you... It's gonna cost $500,000 or so of promotion money to, to get it, where to... Pay the people what they need to get paid. Usually it's the independent people. They, they put people, when they made payola illegal, they put people in, uh, in the middle of these things to, uh, these independent promoters so you didn't... The record labels wouldn't directly be paying the radio stations. They'd pay the independent promoter that would interface and, and get the songs played.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- RBRick Beato
But, um, but as far as dominant trends nowadays, I don't, I don't know how, how it will ever return from that. Everything is controlled algorithmically by massive platforms. Spotify, uh, you know, YouTube, TikTok-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- RBRick Beato
... Instagram, Deezer.
- CWChris Williamson
Does that suggest that we're gonna see more entrenched subcultures? If people get siloed off into algorithmic echo chambers, you'd think that people would listen to more of the same kind of music. But it feels like more of a homogenization than an individuation when it comes to subcultures. So, how do you square that circle? Do you understand what I mean? Does that make sense?
- RBRick Beato
If you think about how the Spotify, how Spotify works, you put in a band, Bad Omens. If you like this, then you're gonna like Sleep Token, you're gonna like... You, you go through the list of bands. Whatever, whatever they are. We could look it up right now.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- RBRick Beato
We could pick any band and then you're gonna see other bands that are similar cross-referenced underneath. Um, and that's how these platforms work, period. And, and, uh, uh, the... They make your playlist for you once they know what you like. You get your daily playlist on Spotify, if you use that. You get your recommended videos on YouTube. Um, and most of the people are okay with it, you know? They like the recommendations. YouTube cut the cord with, you know, subscribers getting every video. YouTube will send you a video if, if it is something that they think you'll be interested in. Just like YouTube, uh, people that are more ad-tolerant get more ads.
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs) Yeah. It's like he- uh, uh, feeding the hardest guy at the table the spiciest meal. Yeah. I think your channel's one, one of the most, I would say, uh, consistent, that when I finish one of your videos, it takes me to another from your channel. Think it's very binge-able. I think people s- sequence watch a lot of the stuff on your channel. Um, huge advantages, that you get more plays. Slight disadvantages that I think you have to cap a little bit of the watch time, 'cause if you start getting up toward 20, 30 minutes, people actually don't end up finishing, which means that they don't get delivered your next video. They're distracted by something on the fucking sidebar.
- RBRick Beato
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
So it's, uh, uh, a, an interesting balance. But yeah, I, I just wonder... I wonder whether we've seen the death of subcultures. I mean, uh, you know, growing up, for me, you would've seen, sort of, Goths, emo kids. You would've had kids that were into hard style. I mean, I'm from the northeast of the UK. You can tell it was very working class.
- RBRick Beato
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
Wasn't anything very refined. There wasn't a classical music-
- RBRick Beato
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
... subculture up there, or a jazz subculture. Um, but-I wonder whether the sort of homogenization, the fact that everybody's operating to appease the algorithm, whether it flattens some of the more experimental and interesting spikes. And because everything's so fast-paced, it doesn't allow any scene to ossify into, "Oh, these are established rules. These are the sorts of things that you can expect. This is what this scene means." Because very quickly, it's in and out, "What's the next thing? We've gotta chase where the algos go. What's the trend? What's happening on TikTok?"
- RBRick Beato
Well, it kinda goes back to my video I made that was in two parts. Music is too easy to make and too easy to consume, right? So you can put down a song, and you and I could write a song right now, and, uh, and record it, and we could put it out five minutes from now.
- CWChris Williamson
Yep.
- RBRick Beato
And the, the idea of a s- scene developing now, there just... Things are too immediate, people are too connected, and because of that, it makes everything more homogenized.
- CWChris Williamson
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- 38:52 – 49:24
Is Music Too Easy To Make Now?
- CWChris Williamson
the issue with music being too easy to make?
- RBRick Beato
Um, the... If... One of the things, let, let's say, guitar amplifiers, okay? For any people who watch my channel, they see I've got 50 guitar amps before me. Well, however many I have in the background. Well, most people nowadays don't use guitar amps. They use these... whatever. Helix or Axe-Fx or, uh, Kemper. These are digital modeling, uh, amplifiers, if you will, but they're, they're digital. And everybody's using the same algorithms, 'cause the amplifiers are modeled, right? So the, they have the same sounds. Yes, you can program them, you can change this, you can move the mic placement. It's all digital though, right? It's not someone saying, "I wonder what it would sound like if I moved the mic, you know, 50 feet away this way, or tried this," or, "Oh, I knocked the mic out," y- you know, uh, "out from in front of your amp. Oh, well, that sounded amazing. Where's the mic? Oh, it's laying on the ground right there. Well, that's an amaz- you know, incredible sound that you would never get." You'd never think to put the mic on the floor t- to do that. And if everybody's using the same palette to, to paint on the, on the canvas, then you're gonna have these records that sound similar.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- RBRick Beato
And I, you and I talked about this last night a little bit, about the, there's not as many professionals, like professional prod- producers and mixing engineers, for example, that are working in rock music. Pop music, country music, yes, that... But in rock music, because there's not the financial incentive that there was. For example, if you were a, a huge rock producer in the 1990s, 1980s, you'd have th- three points on a record, three percentage points, and you had a million-selling record, you'd make, uh, you know, $10 retail, you'd make $300,000 per million, the producer would make. Against their points, you get an advance, 3,000 bucks a track, typically. 10-song record, you get a $30,000 advance, you pay, once you pay that back, you start getting your, your money, right?
- CWChris Williamson
Not bad.
- RBRick Beato
So multi-platinum records, you make millions of dollars as a producer. Well, now there's no money for producers like that anymore.
- CWChris Williamson
Well, they've been competed away with advanced digital workstations.
- RBRick Beato
That's right. So, and, and now there's been a whole generation of, of people that are making records without producers and without engineers that, that may have different ideas than the people in the band that learned everything they know about recording from YouTube videos.
- CWChris Williamson
Well, that's your fault.
- RBRick Beato
(laughs) Well, it's, you know-
- CWChris Williamson
That is your, that is your fault.
- RBRick Beato
(laughs) It's, uh, you know, it's... When I go back and listen to, um, records from the, that were still being mixed by pro mixers back in the '90s and the early 2000s, and they just have a... Um, when you have something that's really mixed well, I was listening to, um, um, a Chevelle record from maybe 2003, um, s- Wonder What's Next, I think it was the name of it? And, um, it's, it's mixed by a guy, Andy Wallace. Amazing mixer, and it sounds massive.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- RBRick Beato
So punchy, and, and I was like-Why don't records sound like that now? Well, it's because this guy's one of the best mixers of all time, mixing engineers. His records sounded incredibly good. And, um... Or Brendan O'Brien that did all the Stone Temple Pilots records, all the Pearl Jam records. He mixed Superunknown by Soundgarden. Brenda's mixes were, are amazing. They're punchy, they're fat. They're, they're... They have dynamics and, um, now when I hear everything, it's like, I hear drum samples, I hear guitars that are recorded digitally with the same amp simulators and, um, and there's a s- there can tend to be a sameness with the music because everybody's using the same type of gear.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- RBRick Beato
And they're recording it in, on the same work stations. Like everything is this... You know, everybody's using all the same stuff, so it's hard for it not to get this homogenous sound. And the difference is the people who, who are the singers, because that's the ones that... That's the one thing. And then if you use Auto-Tune on your voice...
- CWChris Williamson
Does this mean that the importance of the front man or woman is gonna continue to get bigger, given that the singer is the highest point of differentiation that bands and artists have now?
- RBRick Beato
Yeah. I think that's always been the case though.
- CWChris Williamson
I know, but you- you- you would slash, you've got some, like, very talented... Although, I suppose especially when it comes to... Look at Sleep Token and look at the drummer, right? You know, I'm aware that they're not molesting their tracks in quite the same sort of a way. It's a very self-contained unit. Um, but there is still the opportunity now, I suppose, for very talented, uh, back, further, further back in stage, uh, contributors to, to really shine through. But yeah, it seems to me that if what you're saying is correct, music sounds are becoming more homogenized, everybody's using the same presets and fucking decapitators and whatever the hell else it is that they're doing. You didn't think I knew that, did you? Shock.
- RBRick Beato
I like that.
- CWChris Williamson
Um... If that's the case, then where are the remaining points of differentiation? And I wonder whether this is going back to what we said at the very beginning. Well, what about your, your marketing presence? What about your social media game? What about your-
- RBRick Beato
That is... That's-
- CWChris Williamson
... your rollout from an advertising perspective?
- RBRick Beato
That, that's what it is. That's where the... That's how you differentiate yourself is through that.
- CWChris Williamson
Not through the actual art, but through the promotion.
- RBRick Beato
Does somebody in the band have a big social media, uh, platform? Are they big on, on Instagram and they're bringing people to the shows?
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- RBRick Beato
'Cause that happens. That does happen. Um, there's a, a band, uh, from Australia, Karnivool, that-
- CWChris Williamson
I love Karnivool.
- RBRick Beato
Karnivool's amazing. So the bass player, Jon, they have a new record coming out. He sent me, um, he sent me the new single, which-
- 49:24 – 1:05:01
The Impact Of TikTok On Music & Formula For Making A Hit Song
- CWChris Williamson
What ... How do you come to think about the impact of TikTok on music generation? 'Cause I think a lot of the time, normal people like me think about... We consider it in one direction, which is songs that blow up on TikTok. But it's bidirectional, which is the reverse happening, the opportunity to blow up on TikTok causes musicians to create music with the expressed purpose of being TikTok blowupable.
- RBRick Beato
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
You know what I mean? So what does that ... W- what does that l- sound like? What, what is happening to the form and the structure and the sort of way that music is actually created in order to be ... Uh, h- how do you make a song TikTokable?
- RBRick Beato
Okay, so I've, I've thought a lot about this. And, and, um, I, I believe that there's a formula for having a successful song.
- CWChris Williamson
Here we go.
- RBRick Beato
That, that is figureoutable, this is the, my, my, my word, using ... Uh, there's a lot of data out there that's available. There's a ... I have different apps. There's an app called Chart Metrics that, that will show you met- it'll give you metrics of artists' Instagram, TikTok, YouTube. Um, the, it'll show you when something blew up. I'll give you an example. So there's, um, artist Imogen Heap, and my, my daughter Layla, we're d- I drive her to school every day. So I'm like, she's like, "Can you play this song called Headlock by Imogen Heap?" And I says, "How do you know that song?" So I play it. Uh, I said, "That came out in 2005."
- CWChris Williamson
I was gonna say, Imogen Heap's 20 years old.
- RBRick Beato
Yeah. So that came out in 2005. So I play ... She said, "Yeah, I heard it on, on, on, uh, YouTube Shorts, and I wanna hear what the whole song sounds like." Right? And so, so I play her the song. She said, "Ooh, that's really good." I said, "You know, there's another song on here that was a bigger song called Hide And Seek."
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah, it's huge.
- RBRick Beato
So ... Huge. So I start playing it. She's like, "Yeah, I've never heard this." All of a sudden, 2 minutes and fif- 47 seconds in, there's this spot that is the TikTok spot, and she's, she starts singing along. She goes, "Oh, I know this song." It's the bridge of the song.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- RBRick Beato
Where the, the singing, where it gets into the, the faster singing part. And she knew that. And so then I go back and I open up this chart metric. I start looking at it. It's like, okay, so this song had a spike six months ago. People started playing it on TikTok. And then I, and I, I start looking at it, and then she started getting way more followers on Instagram. And then I went back and I said, "Layla, where did you hear ... How did you hear this?" She goes, "Well, I heard it on a few different places." So she sent me the, the three different places. Two of them were anime videos, but they used different parts of the song, Chris. They weren't the same ...
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- RBRick Beato
... TikTok, but they had the same, a similar payoff. And they were, they were, uh, they were from s- some anime. And then one influencer that had three million followers, uh, had shared it as well. But it was in multiple places, and it was hashtag, um, Headlock. And so I started studying these things to see ... And it had blown up multiple times over six months. It kept getting bigger and bigger and bigger-
- CWChris Williamson
Yep.
- RBRick Beato
... until she became aware of it.
- CWChris Williamson
So what is the constituent parts of a, a song that has that virality? What, what is it that, that makes that s-
- RBRick Beato
I'm trying to figure that out right now.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- RBRick Beato
So I don't ... I'm not sure yet. I'm not sure what makes people want to use things and-
- CWChris Williamson
Can you imagine how many resources are being spent trying to get, trying to reverse engineer what that is? I mean, I'm sure that lots of record labels and producers will have got some sentiment. Uh, maybe someone's got the formula. You know, maybe there's s- some person behind the scenes that's doing all the rest of it. Uh, you remember, what was that, uh, the dude that was, uh, skateboarding down the street drinking Ocean Spray-
- RBRick Beato
Drain- Ocean Spray, doing the Dreams by Fleetwood Mac. Okay, so this is, so-
- CWChris Williamson
Creed, fucking Creed, dude.
- RBRick Beato
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Like, I, I, I guess that was partly, like, Texas Rangers winning the World Series, and, uh, that kind of being a part of it. Um, yeah, uh, what, where's this coming from?
- RBRick Beato
So I, uh, when I first started on YouTube, I used to have things not only content ID'd but blocked, where they'd take down videos. And one of the videos I had taken down was a Fleetwood Mac song. It was the song Go Your Own Way. But it was written by Lindsey Buckingham, whereas Dreams was written by, uh, Stevie Nicks. And I argued, I made a lot of videos about blocking. Why are, are, why are these big labels blocking stuff on YouTube of songs that are 40 years old that I'm making videos of? It's just like free publicity. Why block it? Just take the content ID money, make, you're making money on it.
- CWChris Williamson
Hm.
- RBRick Beato
Why do you wanna take down a video that has a million views, two million views? Like, what's the point of it? It's just free promotion for them. So finally, when that TikTok video that you're talking about with the guy with the Ocean Spray, uh, you know, listening to the song, that song went to number one. And all of a sudden, the, the labels are like, "Wait a minute. This is promotion ... Wait, wait. We can actually ..."
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- RBRick Beato
"Uh," you know, and then they, then they stopped blocking it. And all of a sudden, all of my old videos that were blocked got unblocked.
- 1:05:01 – 1:14:07
Why Is Country Music So Popular Now?
- CWChris Williamson
What has happened with the ascendancy of country over the last five years? What, what's going on?
- RBRick Beato
Um, I think it's that... I think that they, the, the production style has changed, and it's, and it sounds like pop music. And so it's, uh... I, I think that it's, um... That it just connects with, with more people because it doesn't sound like country music anymore. Doesn't sound like the country music of when I was going to Nashville and, and, and writing songs.
- CWChris Williamson
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- RBRick Beato
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
... psyoped way for an English person to decide to move to America. So it's Fourth of July on Broadway in Nashville, and I was doing a road trip with a friend. We'd started off in, uh, Dallas, Houston, New Orleans, did Nashville, did Gatlinburg.... uh... (laughs)
- RBRick Beato
You have to.
- CWChris Williamson
We went to Lake Nor- we didn't do Dollywood. Went to Lake Norman, uh, and then, uh, finished up in, uh, Norfolk, Virginia, and then I flew to, uh, Canada. And I, you know, rented a soft top Camaro, me and my friend. We were training every different day, staying in random places. And, uh, it was 4th of July, we got up and we ran the Nashville 5K, um, which was fun. Had a little nap back at the hotel, and then went out to Broadway. Was like, "4th of July, let's fucking go. This is gonna be cool." So I go down onto Broadway, and I see Whiskey Row, and I'm like, "That look... That place looks cool. It's nice." And I walk in, and it's one of these classic, super talented, pay by the hour sort of Nashville bands. Dude's got a trucker cap on. And no one's looking at the band. Like, "What the fuck is going on?" Everybody's at the bar, and this is three in the afternoon, like peak Broadway time. Sun's beating down. It's beau- windows are open, money. And everybody's at the bar. I was like, "What the fuck is going on? Why is... This band's all crushing it." I've never heard this song before, but it was cool. It was kind of like it sounded a bit emo, I guess, but it was definitely country, twangy. I was like, "What the fuck?" Anyway, this dude is partway through the bridge of this song, and he grabs a shot, puts the shot in the air, and everybody in the room, uh, like, uh, like they were part of a cult, lifts a shot up as well. I was like, "What the fuck is going on?" Like, it was like... Was... Is there an email that went out that I wasn't a part of or something?
- RBRick Beato
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
It was the song Tequila by Dan + Shay.
- RBRick Beato
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
And there's a bit where it does a... It goes like a full step up.
- RBRick Beato
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Or there's a little change-
- RBRick Beato
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... as it goes into the final verse. Uh, the final chorus, sorry. And, uh, when I taste tequila, everybody knock their shot back. The room explodes. I was like, "I am fucking moving to this country. Consider me sold." And then I got to... It, it turns out that, uh-
- RBRick Beato
You're friends with those guys, right?
- CWChris Williamson
He, he's a fan of the show, so I got to go and see them, and I got to catch up, and got to see this ridiculous bus setup he's got. "Oh, yeah, the way that we put the bus together, it's the same way that Taylor Swift's got hers, 'cause if you put the, the bed at the back of the bus, you can actually have more width, and it's over the back wheel, which means it's a..." So I was like, "This is fucking insane." But I mean, it's... They're superstars, right? It's super, super production. And, um, I, uh, s- saw kind of in that moment, I was like, "This sounds so familiar to me as somebody that hasn't listened to that much country." And that summer, the summer of, uh, 2019, uh, Luke Combs massive album, uh, Hardy with like Rednecker.
- RBRick Beato
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
Um, you know, we had this, uh, bro trip playlist, and I think about all of that music, and I remember listening to it at the time and coming back to the UK, and, you know, I had maybe three years before I finally moved to America after that, like two y- two and a half years. I'm like, listening to this music, w- I mean, like, "Why the f- Like, this seems like a really, really good scene." So it kind of does make sense to me that we've got to the stage now where someone who was open to alternative music but not into country found fuck boy country, if that's what you wanna call it, or easy access country, I suppose, pop country.
- RBRick Beato
I could see that country music was moving that way the... When I s- got involved, uh, in the scene in the, you know, in the teens, um, it was during the bro-country era. The bro-country era lasted for a few years. Uh, and then... But the, the era of the track guys, there were people moving to Nashville, uh, you know, starting in 2015, 2016, and then Nashville just blew up. And then the music started to change in style, and, um, and it, um, it just... I started noticing my friends that used to listen to rock changed over and started listening to country. I think part of it is that there were, there were guitars in country, and there was no rock on the radio that, that, uh, that they connected with, 'cause they didn't necessarily connect with the me- metal bands that were, were going on in the, in the, you know, in the mid-teens. And, um-
- CWChris Williamson
I don't think people know just how much the country music industry is built on the back of former scene kids and metal guitarists. Like, all pa- all rep- I think all of Jelly Roll's band, uh, ex, you know, s- suicide something or Amity the something... You know what I mean? Like, everyone was part of some very black-wearing, like, death metal band in the 2000s and then grew up to do this. But yeah, Jelly Roll, massive pivot. Post Malone, massive pivot. Beyonce, massive pivot. I guess Taylor Swift pivoted away, but you... I-
- RBRick Beato
Well, she moved to New York, and, and, uh, and she changed her music. And, and she... Her thing was that she was dominating the charts, and then she started... She's like, "Okay, how do I broaden my appeal to, to start hitting..." Uh, you know, pop radio 'cause it was a different thing back when she did in the... In the... whenever it was. 2012 when she started work- working with Max Martin and other outside songwriters like that. Max Martin and Shellback, and, um... And then she started having massive worldwide hits. So, um, the... It's just, you know, I, I look at this stuff, Chris, and I think, it's just tough for, for musicians to, um, uh... They're just... It's so hard to connect with the audience, even in the era when it's so easy to connect with people.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- RBRick Beato
It's so hard to get any type of a, um, uh, of momentum going, right? With, with a song that... Or with, with any type of artist to get to that 100 million plays, you know, talking about the-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
- RBRick Beato
... Bring Me The Horizon song that's, uh-
- CWChris Williamson
500 million now.
- RBRick Beato
... seven s- what's that?
- CWChris Williamson
How much is it, 500 million?
- RBRick Beato
720 million plays.
- 1:14:07 – 1:22:33
Will AI Artists Takeover The Music Industry?
- RBRick Beato
- CWChris Williamson
Uh, okay, we need to talk about AI artists.
- RBRick Beato
Yeah. AI artists, uh-huh.
- CWChris Williamson
What's going on? What's going on? AI bans, AI everything. What's happening?
- RBRick Beato
Um, I think that, um, that one of the AI companies is testing whether people will accept AI music. I mean, Spotify has AI music that they're already pushing in playlists that, um, uh, that, that are... that get millions of views. A lot of it is kind of light jazz or atmospheric music and things like that. But now, they have this thing I just made a video on about this band, The Velvet Sundown, that's a f- purported to be a fake band that has AI-looking pictures and AI-sounding songs. I always s- have said in my videos every ti- I've made many videos on AI. I got... I testified at a Senate hearing in 2023, went to Washington. I was one of 19 people, it was a closed door session. They did nine closed door hearings. I was in the seventh one. The first one, they had Elon Musk, Bill Gates, Zuckerberg, all these people were all the top people at these big gr-
- CWChris Williamson
About music?
- RBRick Beato
No, this is about AI.
- CWChris Williamson
Right, okay. I was gonna say-
- RBRick Beato
But my-
- CWChris Williamson
... I don't, I don't think I care about Elon's-
- RBRick Beato
... They invited me in, in-
- CWChris Williamson
... music taste.
- RBRick Beato
They, they invited me in with all the people, SAG-AFTRA, um, Spotify people, people for all these dif- that worked at all, you know, all, all, basically all different interest groups, right? And then me, 'cause I had made a lot of big videos on AI music. And one of my things that I said is that I don't, didn't believe when they asked, asked me questions, the senators asked me questions, is I don't think that anything that's completely fully generative AI should have, be able to be copyrighted. So, that takes away the financial incentive for companies to, uh, to go and put AI music out there to make money on it. If Spotify can put out AI fake artists and people stream it and they're perfectly okay with it, and then not pay artists that are getting streamed as well, because they're... And then they, then it just increases the incentive for them to fill their playlist with fake artists.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- RBRick Beato
Right? But now what's happened is that there's this artist that may or may not be fake, The Velvet Sundown, that has a verified symbol on Spotify, and they have a second record, even though there's no record of these people, kind of looks like a fake bio, there's no record of these people, uh, and they have another record coming out in two weeks, a second record.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- RBRick Beato
And no one's coming forward saying, "It's us." Now, if this was a, a marketing ploy, this is actually a very smart thing. But people are saying in the comments on the video I just made yesterday, "Well, these are all bots that are on here." It's got um, over 600,000 followers now on Spotify. In a week-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- RBRick Beato
... went from zero to 600,000. It's crazy, right?
- CWChris Williamson
Is the song any good?
- RBRick Beato
Well, there's a whole record there.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- RBRick Beato
And, um, uh, it's... I don't think it sounds good, to me. Not, nah- it doesn't, uh...
- CWChris Williamson
People are voting with their ears, though-
- RBRick Beato
That's right.
- CWChris Williamson
... did you not say earlier on that-
- RBRick Beato
Ultimately.
- CWChris Williamson
... the meritocracy here-
- RBRick Beato
Yeah, and I think that people will embrace... Like I, I said early on, when you started seeing all these fake Drake videos and, and fake Beatles videos and all this stuff, that they were on YouTube, but with the, with the voices of the, uh, you know, young Paul McCartney or young John Lennon, whatever. And I said eventually, there's gonna be the Beatles and the Beatles AI, and Prince and Prince AI, and Michael Jackson and Michael Jackson AI. There will be songs that are trained on their music on the multi-tracks, that are controlled by whoever owns the publishing, they license this stuff out, and there will be people that say, "You know what? I like Michael Jackson AI better than Michael Jackson." That's gonna hap- that will happen. There are gonna be people that like AI music and they're perfectly fine with it.
- CWChris Williamson
Should there be protections in place for artists to avoid AI bands, AI artists coming in and s- taking place? Do you think that Spotify should ban AI music?
- 1:22:33 – 1:36:05
The Ethics Of AI In Music
- CWChris Williamson
Here's my theory, and I'd love to get your take on this. The reason that I think that musicians feel particularly aggrieved when it comes to AI coming and replacing plays, taking, uh, ear real estate from the audience is that the barrier to entry in order to be able to create music is so high. Anybody can do a podcast. They can be very bad, but anybody can do a podcast.
- RBRick Beato
Right.
- CWChris Williamson
Anybody can draw anything. It can be really bad, but anybody can draw anything. If you put a saxophone in my hands, I cannot make a sound come out of it.
- RBRick Beato
Right.
- CWChris Williamson
Right? So the level of investment, the moat that has typically protected musicians for a very long time, not just from being able to play the, the, the instrument, but from understanding musical form, from being able to master, produce, mix, understanding how all of this stuff is sto- supposed to be constructed. When you level the playing field for something that people have invested a ton of time into, they quite rightly are going to feel aggrieved because they say, "This is unfair. Look at how much time I spent getting myself to this stage to be able to do this, and you've just taken a shortcut." I am not allowed to feel as aggrieved because an AI is able to replicate chatting shit on a podcast, right? Because I know that the moat, the barrier to entry, the, uh, required skillset in terms of training was lower than somebody who's a, aficianado at playing the keyboard or at playing the drums or doing something like that. And I think that this is the reason that musicians have a particular bee in their bonnet around the AI thing. But I struggle to see where the delineation is between the graphic artists and the podcasters and the musicians. And if we're not going to stop Notebook LM or Midjourney, I think it's difficult to say Spotify should ban AI music for the same reason because, "Wah, it took me ages to learn to play the drums."
Episode duration: 2:01:34
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