How Bad Is Social Media For Your Mental Health? - Seerut Chawla

1. 0:00 – 3:27

   Seerut’s Issue With Coddling

   1. CWChris Williamson0:00

      What's your issue with coddling?

   2. SCSeerut K. Chawla0:03

      I think, um, there's- there's a few different things and they're all sort of, um... Th- they're all part of the same sort of sticky web of dysfunction. Um, so there's coddling, there's social media, there's therapy culture, um, the sort of pop psychology stuff that I- that I criticize a lot. And they're all- they're all very related. So coddling, you could almost look at coddling as safety culture for children. And- which of course children need safety, but overprotecting children and, um, too much safety, i- it seems to stunt development. It seems to stunt your ability to overcome obstacles, to mitigate your emotions, your aggression, your impulses, um, to- to have any sort of resilience, um, when, you know, to the vicissitudes of life, which no one's- no one's immune to. Um, and then, uh, and- and the sort of extension of childhood, that coddled- that coddled childhood which is now extended, you know. It used to be that you- you were an adult around 15 or- or 16, um, or 18, and now it seems to go on and on, m- you know, into- into the early 20s, if not further. You have 30-year-olds saying, "I'm adulting." (laughs) Um, if you're an adult, (laughs) it's just behavior, it's not adulting. Um, and then, I guess safety culture, which is- which is like coddling for adults. It's- it's like treating adults like infants, um, incapable infants who- who couldn't cope with a different opinion. And if they, you know, have the misfortune of- of coming into contact with an opinion that makes them uncomfortable, then they need a safe space with puppies and coloring books. Um-

   3. CWChris Williamson1:52

      Yeah. What- what are the ways that this safety culture, coddling culture for adults, how does that manifest? What are the behaviors that we see?

   4. SCSeerut K. Chawla2:02

      So you- you, I mean, you would see it everywhere. So you'd see- you see it probably the most obvious, um, examples I think come from university campuses. So you see when anybody who's not, um, completely dialed into the sort of American flavor of, you know, social justice leftism, when they're, um, invited onto college campuses to have a talk, the huge- hu- in- in North America, the huge demonstrations that break out, um, people accuse them of personally victimizing them. Um, there's, uh, you know, sometimes the people are scared for their safety. They're worried they're gonna get attacked. Um, safe spaces are often provided. There's trigger warnings, um, you know, within aca- within your actual academic work, there's trigger warnings. And the research shows that trigger warnings don't actually work. They make things worse 'cause then there's that anticipatory anxiety about, um, "Oh, I'm gonna get triggered." Um, there's, uh, you- you see it in- in this pop psychology stuff where, um, everybody is traumatized and, um, we can't say anything that might hurt anyone's feelings ever. Um, you know, the- the greatest crime anybody can... th- the greatest sin is causing offense. Um, so they're all- they're all quite closely linked, I'd say.

   5. CWChris Williamson3:26

      Well, this- this to me

2. 3:27 – 10:00

   Negatives of an Overprotective Society

   1. CWChris Williamson3:27

      sounds a lot like the concern over, um, overprotectionism strategies, especially on college campuses, especially in liberal arts colleges and stuff around America and- and maybe creeping into the UK as well. But what does this have to do with adult mental health? Like, how is this not just a culture war topic? Like-

   2. SCSeerut K. Chawla3:46

      Mm-hmm.

   3. CWChris Williamson3:46

      'Cause you have expertise, you're a- a practicing psychotherapist.

   4. SCSeerut K. Chawla3:49

      Psychotherapist. Yeah.

   5. CWChris Williamson3:51

      Yeah.

   6. SCSeerut K. Chawla3:51

      Yeah.

   7. CWChris Williamson3:51

      Um, who also knows a bit of, like, psychoanalysis-y stuff too.

   8. SCSeerut K. Chawla3:56

      That's kind of more my area. Um, I'm, uh, sort of, I would say, psychodynamic or psychoanalytic psychotherapist. Um-

   9. CWChris Williamson4:05

      Everyone knows what that is.

   10. SCSeerut K. Chawla4:06

       Yeah. (laughs)

   11. CWChris Williamson4:06

       (laughs)

   12. SCSeerut K. Chawla4:07

       It's- it's- it's the form of therapy that's derivative of what people think of when they think of, you know, Freud. Um, but it's, um, uh, an upda- updated modern version of it. And the, you know, sort of basic premise of this form of therapy, um, is that the mind is divided against itself. So there's- there's all these different forms of, um, all these different conflicts or different parts of us that want different things, have different needs. Um, and so we're constantly working at cross purposes with ourselves, and that often happens unconsciously. Um, it looks at how the past is alive in the here and now. And then, you know, uh, like, a- a good example would be, like, the DSM thinking is that any- any mental health issue is a disease, um, sort of akin to- akin to the way we think of, um, physiological diseases. And in psychoanalytic... And- and of course there are. There are very, you know, mental illnesses, (laughs) very real. Um, but in psychoanalytic thinking, you would see something like depression or anxiety as, um, as sort of- sort of a, like a fever or like a symptom that's telling you there's an underlying infection that's causing this symptom. So you'd of course have, you know, your patient or client, um, see a psychiatrist or get whatever they need. But at the same time, you would work on addressing the underlying- underlying infection.

   13. CWChris Williamson5:42

       Mm. Yeah. I had, uh, Jonathan Schedler on the show-

   14. SCSeerut K. Chawla5:46

       Yeah.

   15. CWChris Williamson5:46

       ... a little while ago and he's obviously-

   16. SCSeerut K. Chawla5:47

       I'm a big fan of him.

   17. CWChris Williamson5:48

       Yeah. He's gr- he was phenomenal. And that was the first time that I really started to see a bit of the psychoanalytical, psychodynamic-y stuff. I'm still largely... I'm like an EP boy through and through. Like, I know my evolution and then, eh, all the rest of this stuff is like-

   18. SCSeerut K. Chawla6:00

       Yeah.

   19. CWChris Williamson6:01

       ... again, outside of my area of expertise. But-Yeah, so d- again, just round this out for me. You are mental health expert, work with clients one-on-one, uh, eh, sort of very well-qualified. But draw this line between what kind of sounds a little bit like what Ben Shapiro might talk about a lot-

   20. SCSeerut K. Chawla6:19

       Mm.

   21. CWChris Williamson6:19

       ... and mental health. Like, how do your expertise give you a, a, a, an insight or what is happening in these environments that's impacting your world and the people that enter your world?

   22. SCSeerut K. Chawla6:31

       Okay. Well, first, I just wanna say, I don't, I don't see myself as an expert, 'cause I'm, I'm barely a dec- I'm about a decade into my career, and then in the people, all the people I admire, um, have had like 40 years under their belts and, and they're fucking amazing. But anyway, um, the, the line I would draw is that when you, when you prevent children, and it's not always because, you know, parents are doing the wrong thing, it's also the, the environment we're in. Um, everything's on screens, you know, children younger and younger are getting on social media. Um, there's a level of disconnection. There's far less rough and tumble play which children need to develop. It's, you know, play isn't, um, isn't a fun treat, it's actually a developmental necessity. Um, and when you look at the coddling and the overprotection, you think of sort of, like colloquially you, you might call it a helicopter parent. So parents always hovering, hovering around, and, um, far too closely, so you don't give the child, one, the space to actually develop, um, and they're, they're often removing obstacles from a child's path, obstacles they need. Um, so if you prevent a child from experiencing anything difficult, you stop any form of conflict or difficulty with other children, um, you don't give them age-appropriate responsibility. You're essentially stunting their, their ability to have those skills as an adult. Um, and you're also stunting their ability to, to learn how to, um, how to go through something difficult and, and, and manage your emotions around it. You know, we see s- these, like vast groups of adults that they just can't. They just can't manage their emotions when something difficult comes up, like they can't take their punches standing up. Every single time, they're flattened. Um, and, you know, that would be, that would be the line. So Jonathan Haidt, who has, you know, done some incredible work in his, his incredible book, the example he always gives is of the immune system, um, and which, which ties into, um, Nassim Taleb's, you know, um, idea of antifragility, and the immune system. For us to develop immunity, we have to come into contact with pathogens, we have to come into contact with things that threaten the immune system and stress it out, and it's only by coming into contact with those difficult things that the immune system sort of learns to, um, fight them, develop-

   23. CWChris Williamson9:11

       Did you see that, uh, children who live in a household that's got a dishwasher have double the rates of, uh, asthma, and children who live in households that have a dog have half the rates of asthma? So you four time-

   24. SCSeerut K. Chawla9:24

       No, but that makes perfect sense because the, the, um, the num- peanut allergies, the rate of peanut allergies is, is also skyrocketed, and you know this.

   25. CWChris Williamson9:33

       Yeah. Yeah.

   26. SCSeerut K. Chawla9:33

       Um, because there's, you know, again, the safety culture. There's so much protectiveness, um, about some child in this class might have a peanut allergy, so there's nothing, no nuts allowed. (laughs)

   27. CWChris Williamson9:43

       Right.

   28. SCSeerut K. Chawla9:44

       So no pe- nothing.

   29. CWChris Williamson9:44

       And we, we have a, almost a, um... there's a mirror scenario going on here between what happens biologically in terms of the immune system and what happens psychologically in terms of our ability to be robust. So-

   30. SCSeerut K. Chawla9:58

       Absolutely. Yeah.
3. 10:00 – 17:30

   What We Get Wrong About Victimhood

   1. CWChris Williamson10:00

      you know, victimhood, victimhood culture, being a victim, again, very popular term that's been thrown around a lot. What do you think most of the conversations around victimhood miss?

   2. SCSeerut K. Chawla10:12

      Like most things on social media, everything turns into a very reductive binary. So you have one side that is wallowing in victimhood, and it's, you know, um, just ludicrous things, and you, and you just think, "Good God, get a life." Like, y- they shouldn't flatten you. Um, and, and, you know, collecting, I c- I call it wound collecting, you know, all these different things that, that add to their, you know, victimhood matrix that means they're more special or more important somehow. And then on the other side, you have people that seem to have absolutely no basic human empathy, and, um, you know, just sort of shame and castigate anybody who's, who might be having a hard time or been through difficult things. And I think the, the, the nuance that gets lost is that there's a big difference between actually having been victimized and identifying as a victim, and what I'm criticizing is always the latter. So there are people who've been, who've been victimized, and in my anecdotal experience and in my clinical experience, I find that people who've really been through horrible, horrific things often do not want to see themselves as a victim because that, that adds to, you know, the re-traumatization feelings of having their agency taken away from them. They're often people who had no choice but to, to find the resources to survive, who are still suffering the impacts of what they went through. And it's more the people who have, you know, a certain degree of anxiety and neuroticism and, um, low mood and, you know, w- great difficulty regulating their affect or their emotions that identify as, that really sort of, um-... hone in on this, on this victimhood stuff because it gives them a really helpful, convenient framework that explains what's going on for them, while also giving you social currency. And, um, and you're much less likely to, to be demonized and attacked if you're a victim. Um-

   3. CWChris Williamson12:25

      Yeah. What, what's the difference between pain and trauma?

   4. SCSeerut K. Chawla12:29

      Pain is... Well, pain is just a, a, a reality of life. We all have pain. Every single one of us has, has, has pain. That- that- that's just, you know, the human condition. Trauma is, um... Well, the word trauma as well, it's- it's- it's so flattened, it's difficult to, to sometimes parse it out. But traumatic exposure is going through something that... Like, like having lived through war or being, um, physically abused or sexually assaulted. Um, you know, any, any of those sorts of things that completely overload your capacity to cope, to the point that you might not even be able to form memories of what happened to you, um, or what you went through. And then it, it leaves an injury, and it- it's an injury that's- that's neurobiological. So, um, it actually changes the structure of the brain. It changes... Um, and, you know, it's also psychological injury. Um, and people have symptoms like, you know, the stereotypical things that you see in films, which is flashbacks and, um, um, you know, reliving the s- the what you went through and nightmares. But also things like, um, insomnia and intrusive thoughts and pervasive, overwhelming feelings of shame or that you're a bad person. Um, complete damage to your capacity to attach to other people 'cause your trust has been so badly broken. It's- it's one of those things that's so alive in your every day that it's almost as though you're always responding to the traumatic thing you went through. And there's also a difference between going through something like that, something traumatic, and developing PTSD, 'cause not everybody goes through something traumatic and develops PTSD. And, um, the- the protective factors there seem to be meaningful relationships and support. Um, if you have that before, during, and after, it can, it can help mitigate, um, the impacts of- of- of the traumatic experience. Um, and- and then people who do develop it often don't have th- don't have support, and also sometimes have a, have a history of some form of abuse or mental health difficulties or... yeah. And temperament. Individual temperament.

   5. CWChris Williamson14:53

      One of... One of the quotes from you that I love is, "Being impacted by what happened to you isn't victimhood, it's human. Making an identity out of it is victimhood."

   6. SCSeerut K. Chawla15:03

      Yeah. Yeah.

   7. CWChris Williamson15:04

      And it's that d- sort of, uh, degree of attachment, right? This, uh, sort of romanticization of pathologization.

   8. SCSeerut K. Chawla15:14

      That's such a good way to put it (laughs) . Yeah. Um, there's... When you have been victimized, you might make an identity out of victimhood or you might always feel like a victim, and that's not the same, again, as what I'm, what I'm criticizing, but it's something you have to work on. You- you really do. Because when your agency is taken away, um... and when I say, "Your agency is taken away," what I mean is that something is done to you against your will and you... and- and there was nothing you could do to prevent it. It's an incredibly powerless, paralyzing feeling. Um, and again, you know, it's- it's part of the injury that's left on you, especially if it happens in early life. So, anything that happens to us when we're developing bec- you know, forms the fabric of- of who we are. So, you might then go on to always feel as though you don't have agency, 'cause you never, you've never felt that you did. You might, you might... you know, it's something that you've never really, um... even occurred to you that- that you could, you could tap into or use. Um, and you might live in the world as somebody who has no agency, who things just happen to, um, and it's directly related to having your agency previously taken away. So, again, those people need help. They need help integrating what happened to them, forming a cohesive narrative around it, um, and- and learning how to, how to take that agency back or- or learning how to tap into it. Um, and then the other group, and it- it really frustrates me, 'cause it's like you're making a mountain for yourself when you needn't. If- if you knew what people suffer when... what a living nightmare it is to actually live with the aftereffects of being traumatized, you wouldn't want to claim that for yourself. Trust me.

   9. CWChris Williamson17:09

      Mm-hmm.

   10. SCSeerut K. Chawla17:09

       You wouldn't survive a day of it.

   11. CWChris Williamson17:11

       Mm-hmm.

   12. SCSeerut K. Chawla17:13

       Um, so, you know, uh, beating the drum of, "I'm so victimized, I'm so offended, um, I deserve special treatment, I have no agency so everybody has to do things for me," um, that- that would be the difference between the two groups, I'd say. M-

   13. CWChris Williamson17:29

       Yeah. It's- it's interesting.

4. 17:30 – 26:19

   Lowering the Bar of What is Unacceptable

   1. CWChris Williamson17:30

      I- I kind of made an analogous, analogous, uh, point between these TikToks of girls that had said, "This guy glanced over three times in 90 seconds while I was videoing myself doing glute bridges in a gym. Therefore, this is toxic male gaze, and it's the patriarchy, and you should be worried because men are predators." What that does, if it's responded to positively, and if the internet says, "Yes, you were in the right," what happens is-... many other girls use that as their new bar for what is and is not acceptable behavior from men. And the bar continues to just move lower and lower and lower, right? That what would have previously been innocuous is now, uh, something that should warrant anxiety inside of yourself. It's almost like the concept creep of interpersonal interactions, right? That it continues to just get more and more and more sensitive. I think, uh, employees at Netflix are only allowed to stare at the opposite sex for no more than five seconds. There was, um, uh, posters on the London Underground, uh, telling men that they weren't supposed to look at women for more than a particular amount of time, the toxic male gaze again. Um, but, uh, going back to something you mentioned earlier on, you spoke about, uh, people might struggle, uh, attaching, they might have intrusive thoughts, they might be down and depressed and blah, blah, blah. Like, everyone has that, right? Everybody has that. And there is a, there is a, a, a spectrum upon which everyone exists, from having absolutely none of it and there's one out of 100 maybe that's there, and having it all the time and there's maybe one out of 100 that's there, and then there's this sort of lovely, lovely little bell curve in the middle of that. And this is, again, something else I learned from you, the difference between the worried well and people with genuine mental illness. And again, it's this romanticization or pathologization or this sort of weaponization of feelings in a way, because the victim is what's being pedestalized. There is a, a type of, odd type of status that comes from being at the bottom of the pile in some way, even if you're only at the bottom of the pile because you've identified that you are. And, you know, th- it's the people who have been through absolute hell that seem to be the most robust, and, eh, there's a paradox that the ones that are the most privileged are the people who are the most fragile. But, uh, my point being that because everybody has this, everyone has a degree of legitimacy to claiming, "Well, I am that. You know, I do have intrusive thoughts. I do get down and sad. I do have all the rest of it." Also, our inner experience is completely opaque to everybody else, so God knows exactly what's going on here. But yeah, the, the, this desire, this desire from people who don't have a, you know, a real mental illness issue to use the label because it gives them some sort of, um, power. And I don't, I don't think it's all to do with this, uh, desired overreach for status by being a victim. I think a good chunk of it as well is by pathologizing whatever the problem is, it gives you a sense of control over what's happening, right? That it's not just, "Wow, the world is random and, and sometimes I end up on the receiving end of, of bullshit." It's, "Oh, no, this is because of a, uh, uh, a n- it's got a name to it, right, that helps me to kind of box it into a particular type of, of issue, and, and it gives me some sense of order, right, outside of the chaos." Um, but yeah, this, the difference between people who are genuinely mentally ill or have, are struggling with, with issues, uh, and then, yeah, this, uh, this other concern, this, the worried well as you call them.

   2. SCSeerut K. Chawla21:07

      Mm-hmm. Um, well, the thing about Netflix is hilarious, and what, uh, like sounds like, it sounds like something between, like a cross between an SNL sketch, uh, sketch, and like The Handmaid's Tale. It just sounds so stupid. Like, (laughs) you can only look at people for five seconds, but what happens if you look at someone for six? Do you get fired?

   3. CWChris Williamson21:24

      Not good, not good. There's an alarm.

   4. SCSeerut K. Chawla21:27

      Is there a quota you have to look for five? Like, if you look at four, for only four, it's rude? Um, and it reminds me of, of when Jordan Peterson was writing his second book, and I can't remember which the pub- who the publisher was, um, and they announced it, and all their employees started crying. (laughs)

   5. CWChris Williamson21:42

      Penguin Random House, yeah.

   6. SCSeerut K. Chawla21:45

      And... (laughs) And you just-

   7. CWChris Williamson21:46

      Yeah.

   8. SCSeerut K. Chawla21:46

      ... it's, it's, yeah, it's just, it's ridiculous. Um, that is ju- it's ridiculous, and the same with London Transport. Does it, does it work the other way? Are women also only allowed to look at men for five seconds or whatever it is? Um, I'm, I'm sure it doesn't.

   9. CWChris Williamson21:59

      I think that there would be a campaign for men for women to look at them for longer.

   10. SCSeerut K. Chawla22:03

       (laughs)

   11. CWChris Williamson22:03

       "I think you can only look at me for a minimum of 10 seconds, but long- longer if you can." Um, but yeah, this is, you know, this really seems to be the worried well and-

   12. SCSeerut K. Chawla22:12

       Yeah.

   13. CWChris Williamson22:12

       ... the genuinely, the genuinely traumatized, the genuinely sort of mentally, uh, upset.

   14. SCSeerut K. Chawla22:17

       Mm-hmm.

   15. CWChris Williamson22:18

       They seem to be the, you know, the two, one group is LARPing as the other, wishing that they could be-

   16. SCSeerut K. Chawla22:22

       Yeah.

   17. CWChris Williamson22:22

       ... and this group is looking at that one going, "Why would you wish any of the things that I'm currently struggling with? I wish that I could get rid of them."

   18. SCSeerut K. Chawla22:30

       Yeah. Or they just go very quiet. Um, I've received... Look, 'cause I, 'cause I, I make a fair amount of posts distinguishing, um, actual trauma from social media trauma, and every time I do, I get this deluge of emails from people with actual PTSD who say, "Thank you for saying that. Um, I don't talk about, you know, what I've been through anymore, because I, I live with this, that, and the other. It's like, it's like having a disability. And my friend who just had a breakup is saying that we, we're suffering from the same thing, so I just don't talk about it anymore." Um, the worried well, I mean, really, that's, uh, well, just another way of, of sort of neuroticism, I guess, which is being, um, susceptible to negative feelings, and, um, and I think the level of, of information online that's shared under the guise of psychoeducation really doesn't help, 'cause it's completely decontextualized knowledge. You know, like, in the UK, therapists, psychotherapists are not allowed to diagnose. You have to do quite a lot of additional training, and you have to be a, a clinical psychologist or a psychiatrist, and it takes time to learn, you know, how to, um, how to discern what, what something is. Um, it's not, there aren't necessarily the same kind of bright lines in, uh, you know, psychopathology that there are in, with physical illnesses, and...You know, like you said, it- the everything w- it's called medical student's disease, so when you're training to be a doctor or a therapist or something, you- everything you read, you think, "Oh my God, I must have this."

   19. CWChris Williamson24:14

       (laughs)

   20. SCSeerut K. Chawla24:14

       And it's, um... And- and we're just doing that to everybody. We're just doing- we're just unleashing that on- on the public. The difference is that you continue your training and then you understand, you understand why it all resonates, you understand that, "No, I don't- I don't have every single, you know, um, diagnosis in the DSM," but the lay, uh, you know, public don't- don't have that. They- they just get the five signs you have anxiety or six signs that you've got OCD. And it's all human behavior, like you said, so things will resonate with you. But there's also a difference. You know, like, what one person might call an intrusive thought might be, "Oh, just a random po- thought popped into my head."

   21. CWChris Williamson24:57

       Mm-hmm.

   22. SCSeerut K. Chawla24:57

       But somebody with OCD or- or PTSD might- might... Well, what they- what is an intrusive thought for them is, "Suddenly I had this awful flash that I'm going to... You know, this image in my head of stabbing my mother, and I- and I'm really scared I'm gonna lose control and do it." Um-

   23. CWChris Williamson25:12

       Yeah, I suppose the f- the fact that you need to communicate this, and especially when it's done online on Instagram captions or whatever-

   24. SCSeerut K. Chawla25:20

       Mm-hmm.

   25. CWChris Williamson25:21

       ... that it's done in a manner that is still largely open to interpretation-

   26. SCSeerut K. Chawla25:25

       Yeah.

   27. CWChris Williamson25:25

       ... and maybe is even designed to be done so, kind of the same way that a medium or an astrology card is purposefully vague and uses language-

   28. SCSeerut K. Chawla25:35

       Yeah.

   29. CWChris Williamson25:35

       ... that's s- so woolly that it could be interpreted by anyone, like the astrology of psychology that we've got going on here-

   30. SCSeerut K. Chawla25:42

       (laughs)
5. 26:19 – 31:30

   Obsessing Over Our Own Emotions

   1. CWChris Williamson26:19

      Yeah, this- this, uh, almost purposefully woolly language, and- and there is, you know, again, uh... I don't want it to seem like anybody that's going through... I've been through mental health struggles myself throughout all of my 20s. Like, I- I really, really want people to understand that there is a conversation, understand that there is- there are resources and there is help and all the rest of the things that you can do. So I don't want it to be like us lambasting it, but the main reason is that people feel like their emotions are a personal curse on them, right? I would- I'm never-

   2. SCSeerut K. Chawla26:51

      Mm-hmm.

   3. CWChris Williamson26:51

      No matter how good friends me and you become, I'm never going to know the texture of your own mind.

   4. SCSeerut K. Chawla26:55

      Mm-hmm.

   5. CWChris Williamson26:55

      I'm never going to know what it feels like to be sero, right?

   6. SCSeerut K. Chawla26:59

      Mm-hmm.

   7. CWChris Williamson26:59

      I'm not going to know... Uh, uh, when you say sad, do you mean what I mean when I say sad? When you say that you couldn't sleep because you ha- you- you were overthinking last night, do you- are you overthinking at the same sort of pace that I am, or, uh, just how visceral is the emotion? Are you sweating? Am I s- do you know what I mean? And this desire for us to feel seen, right, in a world that's very atomized and individualized where the self is h- upheld more highly than everything else and we're obsessed with our own emotions, in this world, someone that posts something that makes us feel like we're not... uh, uh, that this isn't some individual, uh, uh, like, custom drug that's been pumped into our veins to make us suffer, oh, it's just a part of the human experience, that's me. So there, I understand the compulsion to pathologize and put a label on the things that we're feeling because it makes us feel less, uh, uh, objectified by our own emotions, less of a- less of a victim of our own- of our own issues. It's, "Oh, I'm just- just- it's just, you know, it's what- it's every..." Look at- t- 20,000 likes on this Instagram post. Like, all of those people are too.

   8. SCSeerut K. Chawla28:13

      It- some of those- some of those accounts are very clever about how they do it, and they put things in a way that will resonate or will cast the wide- widest net possible, because, um, well, it prob- it- it- it benefits them. Um, there's- there's a couple of things there. So one, absolutely. When- if you're struggling with something and you find out, um, that- that, you know, this is- this is something other people from suffer- suffer from too, there's a name for it, it changes your relationship with the thing that you're suffering from. So imagine, for example, having the symptoms of anxiety, and your heart races, and you've always got, you know, butterflies in your tummy and- and your hands have a tremor and you're always worried and, you know, some of those feelings, and you don't know what it is and you don't know if anybody else feels that way. I think it would be absolutely horrific. Um, and then you find out something called anxiety, and then you find out, you know, w- why does anxiety form? What's the evolutionary purpose of- of- of having feelings like anxiety? And it- it can change your relationship to it. It can, um, change the way you regulate and- and manage and respond to those feelings of anxiety. Um, and I guess the other side of the coin is taking every normal little human emotion and attempting to, um, attempting to, I guess, label it and- and pathologize it. So, you know, some of the- the definitions of trauma on, um, online or in- amongst Insta therapy, they're ridiculous. It's- it's basically just they'll describe the human experience and say this is trauma. Um, you know, do you ever- do you ever breathe? (laughs) Have you ever seen the color blue? (laughs) You have trauma. Um, so it's sort of... I think what you said was- was really insightful because it's true. You- w- we don't like uncertainty, we don't like feeling... Um, we're not very good at tolerating uncertainty or feeling that we don't have control over something. And so if you combine that, um-... you know, ha-having this emotional experience that is, that is quite difficult and turbulent, and you don't have, you know, a lot of control over it, you don't know if it's ever gonna end, you, you're not good at managing it, with having been coddled and protected to the point that you don't have the skills to cope or manage, and probably led to some of those feelings that you're feeling. And then you add to it this pop psychology culture that's telling you, "Oh, this is a legitimate diagnosis, and nobody should ever make you uncomfortable. And no one should ever, you know, um, criticize you or suggest that you have to take responsibility or you have a role to play in learning how to, how to deal with this or navigate this." Um, it's, it's far more convenient to say, "I have trauma." Or, "I have this diagnosis or that diagnosis or the other." And it doesn't always lead to, um, changing your relationships. Sometimes it leads to it becoming a bit of a crutch, or it becoming your defining characteristic, you know? Um, like, "Well, my whole personality is having ADHD." Well, that's not ... Is there nothing else interesting about you? Um, is, is that it? (laughs) So yeah, there's a, there's a few different things there.

6. 31:30 – 40:14

   How Therapy Has Changed Our Culture

   1. CWChris Williamson31:30

      What do you mean when you talk about therapy culture? Is that a culture of people getting therapy?

   2. SCSeerut K. Chawla31:36

      No. Um, it's, it's a cult- it sort of ... It seems to be this overarching thing that's enveloped society and even, you know, down to the way we speak. So, um, therapy culture is this ... You, you, you hear friends, they, you know, will have a small disagreement, and then they start having this whole struggle session, like a therapy session. And you know, like, "You triggered my inner child and ... when you didn't show up to this thing." Or people setting boundaries w- with each other, but they're not really setting boundaries, they're sort of, um, making demands on other people. Or, um, you know, it's, it's ... The way people speak has shifted and changed. Um, instead of necessarily developing any real understanding of mental health, um, we've developed this sort of codification of fragility, um, that's, that's I guess become its own, its own language. Um, you know, "I'm triggered," uh, when often they mean, "I'm offended." Um, and it's the whole, you know, I guess pop psychology, Insta-therapy stuff beginning to dominate the mainstream understanding of mental health. So-

   3. CWChris Williamson32:55

      Yeah. What's, what's ... So talk to me about the difference. You've used that a couple of times today, "pop psychology."

   4. SCSeerut K. Chawla33:01

      Mm-hmm.

   5. CWChris Williamson33:01

      Uh, what, what's the difference between that and mental health, and, and why is it an issue, that it's masquerading as it?

   6. SCSeerut K. Chawla33:09

      Because it's, it's, it's not related to psychology or psychotherapy often. Um, speaking of psychotherapy, something you just said was, um, suggesting maybe you're a natural psychotherapist, when you were talking about how I don't know what sad means to you. And that's something, again, in, in analytic therapy that, that you would do. So if you said, "I feel sad," well, I would ask you what that means to you. You take anything that's abstract and you make it as specific as possible. But, um, yeah, bit of an aside. Um, the difference is that ... actual mental health is rarely spoken about in any real way, apart from maybe anxiety and depression. And, you know, w- when they talk about mental health awareness, it's almost always ... It's like Instagram therapists have become modern-day clergy or something, or like pastoral counselors telling people how to behave, so, um, giving people scripts for life. Um, watering down important concepts like trauma and PTSD. Um, lowering the bar, like you said, for, you know, like, no, being, someone pinching your bum is not n- nice if it's unwanted, but it's not the same as actually being assaulted. And conflating the two things is absurd. Um, so it's, it's all of those things kind of creating this, this blanket around people, this coddling blanket that, um, ensures that you, you, you won't necessarily be resi- I'm sort of really rambling, and, and I think I've like ... You know when you start a sentence, and you're like, "I really hope I find my way."

   7. CWChris Williamson34:51

      (laughs) You're making sense, you're making-

   8. SCSeerut K. Chawla34:52

      "I hope I can land the plane." (laughs)

   9. CWChris Williamson34:53

      You're, you're ma- you're making sense to me.

   10. SCSeerut K. Chawla34:55

       (laughs)

   11. CWChris Williamson34:55

       I've got, I've got some of ... One of my favorite posts from you.

   12. SCSeerut K. Chawla35:00

       Mm-hmm.

   13. CWChris Williamson35:00

       "Some ways pop psychology lies to you. Everyone you dislike is not a narcissist. Every unpleasant experience is not trauma. Having needs does not make you codependent. Disagreement is not gaslighting. Conflict is not abuse. Taking offense is not being triggered. Everything does not need to be normalized. And speaking like an HR memo is not self-awareness." Are these sort of the, whatever it is, nine horsemen-

   14. SCSeerut K. Chawla35:29

       Yeah. (laughs)

   15. CWChris Williamson35:29

       ... of pop psychology, are these sort of the most common culprits?

   16. SCSeerut K. Chawla35:32

       Yeah. These are, these are definitely some of them. So, so yeah, thank you for bringing that up, because that, um, uh, (laughs) helps. And, um, it's, it's stuff like the, the, the dialogue around narcissism. Um, it's creating this strange, you know, fan fiction version of narcissism that only lives on the internet. Um, and anybody you don't like is a narcissist. Any form of abuse or, or poor treatment is narcissism. Um, again, you know, words mean things, especially when they're ... it's clinical language. Um, and, and we've taken this, you know, therapy speak, which is a part of therapy culture, and you use it to inflate every little thing, so, so yeah. You know, you're not just offended or you don't like something or you're uncomfortable, you've been triggered. Wh- when triggered means the involuntary, you know, immersion into-... a past traumatic experience. No, you haven't been triggered, you don't like this or it's caused cognitive dissonance. Um, anything difficult is trauma. It can't be pain, it can't be bad luck, it can't... There, there can be... It's a foregone conclusion. There's no, there's... It just closes the door on any po- any other possibilities, any, any expla- any explanation, um, that might not be this very convenient, um, bow to wrap around your experience.

   17. CWChris Williamson36:55

       Yeah. Any, any disagreement is gaslighting-

   18. SCSeerut K. Chawla36:58

       Yeah.

   19. CWChris Williamson36:58

       ... any conflict is abuse.

   20. SCSeerut K. Chawla37:00

       Yeah. You know, and so someone disagreeing with you, it, what a convenient way to shut down the conversation, demonize them, make yourself the victim, and, and not have to self-reflect. Just call them... Just say they're gaslighting you. You don't have to learn how to, how to, um, argue properly or defend your ideas. You can just say everyone's a gaslighter. How convenient. Um, and this kind of... I, I get policed a lot on how I speak 'cause I'm quite straightforward and I just, I resent, um, having to put tons of fluff around my words because, you know, someone can't handle just being spoken to like an adult, and I don't want... I'm not gonna do it. Um, and I guess this is what they call tone policing. So I get a lot of, a lot of, um, comments and DMs with, from people saying, "You know, your message is good, but the way you come across is really harsh." And I just think it really isn't. If you try and read it neutrally, it's just stating a simple fact or opinion most of the time. And if you heard me say it in my tone to your face, um, I don't think you'd take it the s- the same way. And, um, there's this sort of, I think, a tone people bring to things. Um, and again, it's, it's the... So I... Similar to what I wrote in that post, I, I see a lot of that just in, in some of the responses I get. Um, even in this last week, I've had a, just this steady stream of abuse, uh, to do with, um, anything I've said about Israel and Palestine. When mostly my position has been, um, don't bomb children. Like, (laughs) I don't, uh... You know, I don't, I don't know what's... Uh, I'm not, I'm not arrogant enough to pretend I know what the answer to the solution is, and I think anybody who thinks it's simple is a idiot. You know, just very, very stupid. Because, you know, it g- it goes back a very long time, there's so many factors to consider here. Anyway, um, and I... So I don't know what the right answer is, but I do know that you don't just indiscriminately kill children. Just don't. Um, and people read things that you, that you haven't written and they attack you for them. So, you know, like you're, you're a Jew hater or you're, um, Islamophobic or you're not taking enough of a stand or, um, something else. But then the other thing they do is they begin to use this therapy language to analyze you, uh, and then you get that in some of the DMs. "I think you're," insert some diagnosis, "or you're, you're gaslighting everybody, or you're..." Um, and, uh, you know, it's, it's, um, again do... It's weaponizing this language, and I think that's a... that's one of my big problems with it, is that pe- it gets used as a cudgel against people. Um, yeah, so weaponizing this language, lim- you know, inhibiting any sort of actual self-reflection, um, finding a way to always land in the victim position, abdicate responsibility-

   21. CWChris Williamson40:12

       So now, is there any

7. 40:14 – 46:00

   Are People Actually Discussing Real Mental Health?

   1. CWChris Williamson40:14

      argument to be made that this normalizes the conversation around mental health, which overall is a net benefit? We've got people maybe misappropriating language-

   2. SCSeerut K. Chawla40:26

      Mm.

   3. CWChris Williamson40:26

      ... using it inaccurately, imprecisely, uh, but this is a conversation now where people are opening up about the way that they f- their inner experience feels. Uh, this is a, a move in the right direction. What's your... How do the scales balance in your world?

   4. SCSeerut K. Chawla40:43

      I s- it's really difficult actually, 'cause on, on... Because I often don't think we are even talking about mental health when we say we're talking about mental health. But I think you're right. I think it's, it's, it's good that, um, there's a more receptive atmosphere to people being able to say, "Actually, my mental health suffering at the moment." And, and there's a decent chunk of people who won't turn away or turn against you, who will be understanding and incredibly empathetic, and, um, that probably is incredibly different to, you know, our parents generation, for example. And I think, yeah, that is a net positive. That's, that's really good.

   5. CWChris Williamson41:22

      What would a... Uh, what would an actual conversation around mental health look like?

   6. SCSeerut K. Chawla41:29

      I think an actual conversation around mental health would look like discussing actual mental health issues. What it, what it's like to suffer from them. Identifying, um, you know, some of the signs that maybe this isn't normal distress or a normal hard time, there's something a bit deeper going on. Um, helping people s- you know, learn how to manage their mental health, um, y- similar to how a diabetic has to watch their sugar intake and take insulin. When you have an ongoing mental health issue, you, you need to, you need to manage it. You, you know?

   7. CWChris Williamson42:04

      Right. I- I've, I've kind of got it in my head that there's this, um... It's kind of like a global wide concept creep, or an Overton window, uh-

   8. SCSeerut K. Chawla42:12

      Mm.

   9. CWChris Williamson42:12

      ... of what we've considered, uh, within the realm of the conversation about mental health.

   10. SCSeerut K. Chawla42:18

       Yeah.

   11. CWChris Williamson42:18

       As we've identified, you know, by DSM criteria, many people who say or use particular sort of pathological language to identify whatever it is that they got going on might not meet the criteria if they were to be assessed using that.

   12. SCSeerut K. Chawla42:33

       Mm-hmm.

   13. CWChris Williamson42:34

       But they've got something going on, right?

   14. SCSeerut K. Chawla42:36

       Mm-hmm.

   15. CWChris Williamson42:36

       They are sad or they are depressed or they are down or they feel anxious or they whatever, or they- they feel depressed, like they're not depressed, right?

   16. SCSeerut K. Chawla42:44

       Yeah.

   17. CWChris Williamson42:44

       Um, so I think that yeah, maybe you could say, um, using the, uh, sort of psychoanalytic, uh, treatment style language is not really helping and it's pathologizing and it's causing issues. But all that you do really there is kick the can down the road, right? The, "Okay, so we're not going to use that language anymore, but we still now need a huge new bucket within which people who are feeling a little bit sad, people who-who are feeling a little bit agitated, a little bit frustrated, they're a little bit wistful, they're a little bit whatever," right? There now needs to be an entire new bucket within which we put those people, and maybe it's not mental health, maybe mental health should be, um, uh, held for a different, an entire different lexicon, entire different sort of world. But the people who aren't lying about it and not completely making it up, which is a good chunk of them, the people who are genuinely feeling something that isn't meeting the medical, uh, criteria but is still doing something that disrupts their quality of life, that group of people, you know? Like that's-

   18. SCSeerut K. Chawla43:49

       Hm.

   19. CWChris Williamson43:49

       ... I would guess, the- the large group of people.

   20. SCSeerut K. Chawla43:51

       That's most people.

   21. CWChris Williamson43:51

       But i- i- if-

   22. SCSeerut K. Chawla43:52

       That's most people.

   23. CWChris Williamson43:52

       ... that's not mental health, we now need to- we need to think about it. I think what's happened is it's become conflated, right? Like the-

   24. SCSeerut K. Chawla43:58

       Mm-hmm.

   25. CWChris Williamson43:58

       ... acute- acute but mild distress has been moved into this much more, uh, sort of aggressive, uh- uh, medical language. But we still need to treat those people and we still need to have a conversation around whatever those feelings are and whatever the name is that we give those things that they're feeling.

   26. SCSeerut K. Chawla44:17

       Why can't we just say sadness or wistfulness or loneliness or why does it need a whole new set of- of words? That's- that's again, it's the, you know, it's the human experience and I think this is one of the things that we've lost along the way with the whole, like, follow your bliss and people thinking Hollywood films are what life is gonna be like. Life is fucking difficult. Um, you know, your- your feelings sometimes are incredibly hard to manage. Um, things happen all the time, y- you know, you never know what's around the corner. Um, life is incredibly un- unpredictable. And I think there's this idea that y- that it- it should be easy in some way or that you, you know, if you're not happy or blissfully happy all the time, that there's something wrong, and there isn't. Who, unless you're a complete blithering idiot, who's happy all the time? (laughs) Like, I don't know anyone. Everyone has, you know, um, ups and downs and- and differences and changes in mood and, um, their own personal difficulties. And I think maybe, you know, using a word that I've come to loathe, maybe that's what we need to normalize, is that this is what being a person is. Um, and, you know, you- you have to find, you can't change that. What you can change is making yourself stronger and more resilient and to know how to respond when these things happen. You might not be able to control, um, bouts of- of sadness or wistfulness or agitation, but you can learn that when you're in a hole, to stop digging, you can learn that, you can learn how to- how to climb out, um, you can learn how to avoid that hole sometimes. Um-

8. 46:00 – 54:21

   Best Things to Rely On to Improve Mood

   1. CWChris Williamson46:00

      Where do you go to if, let's say that you're going through a bit of a tough time yourself, uh-

   2. SCSeerut K. Chawla46:05

      Mm-hmm.

   3. CWChris Williamson46:05

      ... for whatever reason, where do you go to in your mind? What are the things that you rely on? You know, it seems like people are relying on labels and- and- and medical language.

   4. SCSeerut K. Chawla46:17

      Mm-hmm.

   5. CWChris Williamson46:17

      What about you? Given that you're a- a practitioner of this and have been at the front lines for a decade, what are the things that you rely on to help improve your mood or to give you some perspective when you're kind of caught in the whirlpool that is the machinations of the human mind?

   6. SCSeerut K. Chawla46:32

      Um, so... (sighs) I- I, okay, so I've- I've had a kind of eventful life and been through some really, really tough stuff. Um, becoming basically homeless, um, assault, just, you know, I won't go into all of it, but difficult things. So sometimes there are things that I think would be really difficult for somebody who didn't have those experiences that don't always even register with me, (sniffs) um, because I guess that threshold has been expanded to the point where it's- it's- it's- it's different. And I- I'm sure other people who've got that kind of history can- can relate. But then also I think because I've had that and I've been in the complete depths, like drowning, um, and had to- had to find a way, the hard way to deal with those emotions, that I'm not scared of them. And not only am I not scared of them, um, I'm not scared of other people's either. So if something happens, like anxiety, which sometimes, you know, anxiety, feelings of depression, I lost my mom two years ago so it's been a lot of grief. Um, even rage, jealousy, all the feelings that people feel, I let myself feel them, I let them exist. I don't necessarily even have to, you know, you don't necessarily even have to participate. You know, you just ha- you just let them be, let them exist, let them run their course. Um, not- not panic about it, not necessarily think that it's a problem to solve, it's like, "Okay, there's a feeling." Um, if you're so inclined, you could figure out, and with practice you can get very good at this, figure out where, what caused it, where's it coming from? "Oh, I had that thought. Oh shit, that's what, that's what just deflated my mood." Or, um, "That lady I ran into in the supermarket today, she reminded me of the way my mom belittled me and that's why I've been so sad and anxious ever since." So you can trace it back, you can figure, you can figure that out. Um-And also just, just knowing that like you've survived every single tough thing, bad day, bad mood up to this point, you're gonna survive this one too. Why is this any different? Um, and the thing about not being scared of it is, like anxiety can be incredibly frightening. And I've been through the, the, um, you know, been through, been through the experience of being very frightened by panic and thinking, you know, something, something really awful was gonna happen. And then my dad taught me this 'cause he struggles with some anxiety too. And he said when, when the anxie- I think I remember, I was 17 or 18 and had a panic attack. And my dad said, "Just t- the anxiety can't do anything to you. Um, and when it comes up, look it right in the eye and tell it to do your worst. You can't (laughs) do anything to me." And I think that's kind of (laughs) my attitude to, to a lot (laughs) of things. Um-

   7. CWChris Williamson49:27

      That seems... Based on what I know about you-

   8. SCSeerut K. Chawla49:29

      (laughs)

   9. CWChris Williamson49:29

      ... that seems on brand.

   10. SCSeerut K. Chawla49:30

       (laughs) Yeah. Um, but it, it can help. And knowing that, knowing that, that, um, e- metacognition, watching your thoughts, thinking about your thoughts, knowing that right now I'm panicking and I think I'm gonna have a heart attack and die, but I know that's the anxiety and the panic. It's not gonna happen. And I just have to wait this out. Whiten up a little if you have to. Um, and then the other thing is, with anxiety and panic especially, um, move, metabolize that chemistry. Like burn it off quicker. Just run down the street like a crazy person. It'll y- it'll go away. Um-

   11. CWChris Williamson50:08

       (laughs)

   12. SCSeerut K. Chawla50:10

       ... and yeah. And so, so it does depend, but you also have to develop some form of mental health hygiene around it. Um, just made a course for app- I have this little online community and I make courses for them. Just made a course on mental health hygiene and, and, you know, how to actually look after your mental health and the factors that contribute to you being well. Like-

   13. CWChris Williamson50:32

       Where should people go if they wanna check that out?

   14. SCSeerut K. Chawla50:35

       Um, there's a link in my bio on Instagram and on Twitter, or you can connect to it through my website. Um-

   15. CWChris Williamson50:42

       What's the website?

   16. SCSeerut K. Chawla50:43

       It's my name.com. Seetatkhichawla.com.

   17. CWChris Williamson50:47

       That's fantastic. All right.

   18. SCSeerut K. Chawla50:47

       And, um, and, you know, y- for, for looking after yourself and for, for feeling well, you need certain things and they're non-negotiable. Um, like purpose. If you don't have a reason to wake up in the morning, of course you're going to become depressed and anxious. If you don't go outside ever, um, which I struggle with sometimes 'cause I work from home and sometimes the apps, e- every- you can get everything delivered. Um, so, you know, you have to force yourself. Y- you have to have meaningful social interactions. Internet doesn't count. Um, you know, social media's made us so connected and yet so isolated from actual real human beings. Um, you need to, you know, we evolved in nature. We didn't invo- evolve in these, in these concrete boxes. Um, y- you have to, uh, you know, once in a while go and look at a tree for god's (laughs) sake. You can do, if, if you live in the city or whatever, but there are certain things you need. Um, and the way that our environment is now, of course everybody is struggling with something. And it's not only the coddling and the, you know, safety culture and whatever else. It's, it's you're stuck on devices, you're looking at social media which is, you know, we know that's, um, a threat to mental health. We know that it's, it's a contributing factor to depression and anxiety. We know the impact that it has on young people and teenagers, sometimes to a really tragic, um, conclusion. And then you're indoors all day and you're sedentary, which is gonna make you incredibly depressed if you're not moving. W- we weren't designed to just sit on our bums all day. We were designed to move. Um, and I've found that. Like I've gotten really into working out since last December, and, um, it's gotten to the point now where it, it... You know, as s- so I finish work and as soon as I finish I just get on the treadmill. And sometimes I finish quite late, so I just... But that's just my, my transition. And, um, it's almo- even if I'm tired, even if I don't wanna do it, as soon as I start it's that feeling of like... You know when you sink into a warm bath and it's that, that kind of whole body like, "Oh, that's better." Is that's the feeling. And, you know, there, there's I'm sure a really good reason for that, for why it feels that good, for why y- you know. Um, there's, there's so much that we need to be well that isn't, um, part, a natural part of our environment anymore. Even, even staying up late and looking at the blue light in our phones, and, uh, there's so much that actively contributes to us being disconnected. Sedentary, eating food that, that doesn't give us the nutrition that we actually need to synthesize some of those, you know, some of that neurochemistry. Um, you're dealing with this onslaught of the most horrific, devastating things happening all around the world all the time, which we're not wired to handle. You know, we can't cope with that. Like before, you know, w- I think the, the figure is something like you would only know the bad news of your area and only maximum in your whole life know about 150 people, um, in that kind of radius of the, the village or town or wherever you live. And, you know, to hear the bad news from, "Oh, this happened to the neighbor, this happened in the next town," and that's kind of it. Now we're hearing everything that happens everywhere all the time at the same time. And you, and you can't, you can't cope with it. Um, yeah.

9. 54:21 – 58:38

   Why the West is Self-Obsessed

   1. SCSeerut K. Chawla54:21

   2. CWChris Williamson54:21

      Given that there's so much there that you've gone through which is, you know, outside of the self, um-

   3. SCSeerut K. Chawla54:26

      Mm-hmm.

   4. CWChris Williamson54:26

      ... the way that we move, the things that we eat-

   5. SCSeerut K. Chawla54:28

      Yeah.

   6. CWChris Williamson54:28

      ... the, uh, amount of sunlight we're exposed to, the friends that we have, the purpose that we, uh, uh, use to propel us through life-Why do you think we've spent so much time obsessing about the self and our emotions in the West?

   7. SCSeerut K. Chawla54:45

      Because life's too easy. Um, uh, you know, like, where nobody... Human beings aren't wired to just sit back on their laurels and enjoy the fucking sunshine. Like, that's not what we, we're wired to do. We're wired to, to overcome obstacles and challenges and keep moving forward in some way. And when, when you remove all the challenges and make life too comfortable, it's like people start malfunctioning. And, you know, when there's, there's... And I think there, there'll be a lot of people who absolutely balk at this and say, "How dare you say life is easy in the West?" And then I, I just think, go and live somewhere else for a little bit, and, and then you'll understand how good you actually have it. Like, from every little thing, like, um, you know, you're not gonna have a power cut every day. You can rely on the electricity. Um, all the sort of public services, you might find them too bureau- bureaucratic or annoying, but they work like (laughs) a Swiss watch compared to some of the other places in the world. Um, you're relatively safe. You've got free education and free healthcare in this country. You know, like, there are dogs in this country that have b- better lives than people in other places. And, um, and when there's no- nothing external to s- to necessarily struggle against, and then you have had these, you know, coddling helicopter, overprotective parents removing any obstacle from your path... What's that phrase? Uh, you know, prepare the, the, the child for the road, not the road for the child. Um, and, and you end up with, um... Sorry, I looked away for a second, and I completely lost my train of thought. (laughs) Um-

   8. CWChris Williamson56:21

      Well, I've got something... I've got, I've got what I th- Uh, like, something really interesting just came there which is, it seems like victimhood culture has arisen because the human system's demand for challenges-

   9. SCSeerut K. Chawla56:34

      Yeah. Yeah.

   10. CWChris Williamson56:34

       ... in life has outstripped the modern world's ability to supply them.

   11. SCSeerut K. Chawla56:39

       Yeah. I think that's one factor, and that was really well-said. But I think the other factor is also that because things have been so good, people have an unrealistic idea of what life should be like. So, there should never be anything difficult. No one should ever be offended. You should be protected from your feelings ever being hurt. Um, and the sort of very unrealistic Camelot-like idea for how a person should feel. You should, you know... You see some of, some of these posts on Instagram, like, "You deserve this," and, "You are worthy," and, and... I don't know about you, but I didn't get that messaging as a kid, and I'm really grateful. Um, and the messaging I got was, "Yeah, you can do anything you want, but get off your butt and earn it." Um, and I'm, you know... "I'm glad," and, "If you're good enough." It wasn't, "You deserve it 'cause you, you think you do." Who are you? (laughs) None of us, none of us, um, go through your schooling system and uni, if you go to uni. Then you're just gonna meet someone, your soulmate, fall in love. Um, then you're gonna find your perfect career which is gonna be rewarding and pay you what you want. And, you know, then you'll somehow magically have a really nice house and a car and kids if you want them. And then they actually, you know, reach adulthood and they're in for such a rude shock because, um, it doesn't necessarily go that way. Um, instead you kind of, you struggle and you realize, no, there's no dream job and soulmate that's gonna fall in your lap. Um, there's, you know... Y- you have to make things happen. You have to take responsibility. And, you know, combined with this self-esteem parenting that tells children constantly how special they are, how clever they are, how talented they are. And then they grow up and find out that the world doesn't reflect that back to them because maybe they aren't that talented and, and amazing, um, and become incredibly depressed and nihilistic. Hmm.

   12. CWChris Williamson58:37

       What do you think...

10. 58:38 – 1:02:53

    How People Misunderstand Self-Worth

    1. CWChris Williamson58:38

       It seems like self-worth, or the interpretation of our own self-worth, is kind of an important element here. What do you think-

    2. SCSeerut K. Chawla58:45

       Mm.

    3. CWChris Williamson58:45

       ... people get wrong about self-worth and where it comes from?

    4. SCSeerut K. Chawla58:50

       I think what they get wrong about it is that self-worth does not come from other people inflating you or, you know, blowing smoke up your ass. That doesn't do anything. That doesn't, like, that doesn't hit the core of you. It's, it's this whole, like, validation, you know, how it's so important. You have... "You invalidated me." Like, so fucking what? Like, you're an adult. Um, and I think it doesn't, it doesn't touch the sides and... The thing it does is make people constantly dependent on more from, from those around them, which is why it's so crucial to have everybody validate your feelings and your viewpoint and tell you how wonderful you are. But actual self-worth is hard-won and it's earned through surviving things and, um, you know, set- setting a challenge for yourself and actually accomplishing it. Um, keeping your word to yourself. Do you know how fucking difficult that is and how few people can do it? Um, and I struggle with it all the time. It's a constant battle. But don't stop ever trying. Um, keeping your word to yourself w- will change your relationship with your sense of, of self-worth. Develop competence in something, you know? Um, have a purpose that makes you excited to be alive. All those things will not only take your focus off, you know, this idea that having self-esteem, self-worth and, you know, warm and fuzzy feelings inside is, you know, the be-all and end-all of life. But it'll give you that grounded sense of self-assurness, self-assuredness. Assurness? I don't know. Um, that, that changes how you feel in the world.

    5. CWChris Williamson1:00:36

       I think you've just described probably the large, uh, uh, the big changes that I made over the last decade-

    6. SCSeerut K. Chawla1:00:43

       Yeah.

    7. CWChris Williamson1:00:43

       You know, ke- yeah, absolutely keeping my word to myself, uh, being able to build up trust that if I said I was going to do a thing, that I was going to do a thing, um, creating a competency in something that I genuinely felt proud of myself about, uh, having a purpose that gave me a reason to get up in the morning, you know, the- these have been the big movers for me. Um, and you know, that's wrapped in better sleep and wake and m- more of a focus on, uh, th- like, holistic health and fitness and not just looking jacked, and, uh, having people around me that seem to care about me, and, uh, integrating not just on the internet and all the rest of those things, right? But, like, the big movers- the big movers largely have been my sense of self, which was borne out of making promises to myself and keeping them. And I- I remember the first episode that I did with Jordan Peterson three years ago now, maybe more, um, was, uh, he- he's got this little line, people can go back and listen to it, and he just, like, throws it away toward the end of the episode and he says, "If you want a true adventure in life... If- if you want a- a- an exciting adventure in life, tell the truth." Like tell the truth and see how big of an adventure that is. He's like, "Boy, that's an adventure." And it's true. Like, if- if you want to... Uh, one of the most difficult, scary, terrifying things to do is to regularly just keep telling the truth over and over again. To not people please, uh, to not be, uh, bitter or resentful, posture, uh, to, uh, try and inflate what it is that you've achieved or downplay it, to just say what it is, which is really the- the path of least resistance because you don't need to create this big fucking mirage of- of stuff that's all hiding what's actually going on, uh, and yet, for some reason that seems to be just... I- it's very, very difficult to do. It's very difficult to do.

    8. SCSeerut K. Chawla1:02:29

       Yeah. And telling the truth to yourself, I think that can't be stated enough, 'cause the ways in which we pull the wool over our own eyes is, um, brilliant. But, you know, there's... Uh, I completely agree, and, like, the truth is one of my, uh, you know, like, it's a- it's a really important value to me. Um, and a lot of people

11. 1:02:53 – 1:11:50

    Looking to Sam Harris as an Example

    1. SCSeerut K. Chawla1:02:53

       really hate Sam Harris, but I- I- I like him for this, is because he doesn't try to pander to any tribe, especially the sort of, like, awoke and anti-woke binary, and he just says what he actually thinks and feels about things. So everybody seems to hate him, but he's- he's, um... I'm sure his mind is organized in a- in a different way, um, in a more, maybe-

    2. CWChris Williamson1:03:15

       I- I- I- I agree. I mean, I had him on the show, got a lot of stick for having him on the show three months ago, and it was Sam Harris' world embarrassment tour, people were commenting. And I thought to myself, like... I- I had so much fun. I did three and a half hours with him and I had so much fun, sat down opposite and talking, and I understand that people don't like him because of his view on this or, you know, this just shows that you're not gonna hold someone's feet to the fire about this, that or the other. I was like, "Dude, there are people out there that I know for a fine fact are way less trustworthy, but just said the right things, they made the right mouth noises at the time when you wanted to about the issue that you care about, and you would much sooner have a lying but complicit ally as opposed to a honest but antagonistic adversary." And for me, like, I'm not saying that I'm gonna f- like, I don't agree with tons of the stuff that Sam said, but I fucking believe that he believes it, and the fact that I believe that he believes it gives me a lot of faith that in the future when he says a thing, that I can believe it too. And given the fact that truth and being able to actually have faith in someone's word is really important, and maybe there's stuff that he said that contradicted... I'm sure that there is all the rest of it, caveat, caveat, caveat for the internet, but yeah, like, I- I believe that he believes the things that he says, and I don't- I don't think that that can be said for an awful lot of people. So that was why I was super excited to sit down with him, uh, and I will do it again, and you know, like, fuck the internet for, like... I- I- I had s- I had so much fun talking to him, I thought it was really, really interesting, I learned a lot, and you know, if- if- if- if people have got an issue with the way that he comes across with things, then, you know, I- I guess he's not for you anymore. And the felt sense, one of the things I've reflected on this a lot, one of the things I think people have an issue with is they thought Sam was their guy-

    3. SCSeerut K. Chawla1:05:06

       Yeah.

    4. CWChris Williamson1:05:06

       ... and Sam was their guy for a little while.

    5. SCSeerut K. Chawla1:05:09

       Yeah.

    6. CWChris Williamson1:05:09

       And now Sam feels like he's not their guy, and one of the big emotions that seems to be driving this is kind of like a betrayal, you know?

    7. SCSeerut K. Chawla1:05:17

       Yeah. Yeah. Um, it's that group thing, tribalism thing, and people try and pretend they're above it. None of us are really. You kind of have to mitigate your impulses, and I think- I think that's what it is, like these very tribal groups online that dominate, you know, discourse of everything, um, that they're far more punishing of heretics and dissidents than they are of like actual adversaries, I think. Um, if you- if you change your mind and you- you speak out against the group, and you absolutely should, um, you absolutely should, you shouldn't- you shouldn't... 'Cause there's a real price to it- it- it's not nice, and I've- I've had a lot of it, like- like I said, this last week, a lot of it, uh, attacks and, um, losing followers and all that, like, fun stuff, but- but I- I think there's a bigger price to pay to just assimilate with the group and- and sacrifice what you actually think, go against your conscience, and not tell the truth.

    8. CWChris Williamson1:06:23

       Mm-hmm.

    9. SCSeerut K. Chawla1:06:24

       Um, which is why I respect Sam Harris. I don't agree with anything or not with everything he says, I don't agree with everything anyone says, um, but what I can respect about him is that he seems to have integrity and he has the courage to tell the truth as best as he can see it.

    10. CWChris Williamson1:06:43

        Mm-hmm.

    11. SCSeerut K. Chawla1:06:43

        ... um, and he tries to think things through. Um, and I'd l- you know, like you said, I don't think there's that many people like that out there. Instead, you have this, like, legion of parrots with huge platforms that just, you know, all say the same thing, uh, worded slightly differently. Um, or they say things that, you know, on purpose to inflame, um, you know, inflame their own audience against another group of people. Or-

    12. CWChris Williamson1:07:11

        I mean, this is-

    13. SCSeerut K. Chawla1:07:12

        Yeah.

    14. CWChris Williamson1:07:12

        ... th- this is like my rule of whether a creator is or is not acting in good faith is, is their audience mostly bound together over the mutual hatred of an out group or the mutual love of an in group? That's one of the easiest rubrics to use. Okay. Like, do they, do they bond together by identifying the other and then saying, "We are not that," or is it, this is a community of people? Because shared hatreds are much more powerful than shared loves, right? Way more powerful. Wartime fucking patriotism versus peacetime patriotism, are you kidding me? Um, but, uh, y- one of your other, uh, posts that I really loved w- was, uh, sometimes we are the toxic ones. And no one wants to admit that. No one wants to actually point the finger at themselves, you know, whether it's fundamental attribution error or, you know, whatever type of motivated reasoning to wiggle your way out of being culpable for the things like, everybody is a prick lots of the time, right?

    15. SCSeerut K. Chawla1:08:12

        Yeah. (laughs)

    16. CWChris Williamson1:08:12

        Uh, m- m- me, me included. And, you know, just accepting the fact that we can be like that. And, and to kinda round out that Sam thing, I've been feeling it a bit recently, uh, we're deep into the episode now which means that all of the people who don't actually usually listen to this d- aren't listening anymore, so I can f- I can talk more openly. Uh, I've been feeling it a bit recently 'cause the channel's grown so much. It's like tripled this year, I think. Maybe more. By the end of this year, it'll have more than tripled. Uh-

    17. SCSeerut K. Chawla1:08:39

        Wow.

    18. CWChris Williamson1:08:39

        ... and, and a l- an awful lot of, uh, like, increasing levels of scrutiny and then you kind of become... You become a thing. You're no longer a person. You're a representation of ideas and there's expectations and there's, um, not judgment but there's a, a, a, a rhythm to w- how people expect you to show up and you're kind of put into this particular box. You're like, Chris used to be X or Chris is a part of Y. Uh, and I feel in myself these dynamics moving below the surface and this kind of engine begin to tune up which is precisely the one that Sam is kind of feeling the other side of at the moment, which is like, "We thought that you were, uh, on our side with X or Y or Z," and if you seem to be an unreliable ally, if you seem to do something that goes against what the main group was supposed to do. I made some... I, I had an interesting conversation with Konstantin Kisin. I know you've been on Trigonometry. I had this conversation with him about how, um, uh, people on the right say you shouldn't judge people by one interaction, but, you know, Bud Light had had a pretty stellar career of making, like, watery beer for Americans, and then they did the Dylan Mulvaney thing, and now the entire company was thrown under the bus. And I was like, that's... I don't know. It's just a thought experiment. Like, it's an interesting... Should this maybe, you know, sh- m- maybe it could be a, a different perspective and we could think about it in this kind of a way. But people are so incapable of seeing any idea or any, uh, any discussion as anything shy of a hill that someone's prepared to die on, that they immediately come back with that same sort of energy. And I'm like, "Whoa, whoa, whoa. This is, this channel is evidently not for fucking you, right? If I can't play about with ideas on here." Uh, but again, you know, I see this dynamic, the one that we're talking about with Sam and, and th- maybe the one that he is on the other end of, where you go, "Well, it's way easier for me to just not play about with those ideas anymore." You know, this month, like, 20 million people have seen the channel. And it's way easier for me to not ever say, to just feed red meat to the mob, to not say anything that's, like, interesting or adventurous or playing around with ideas or exploratory, because I know that if I do do that and I'm imprecise or I'm off that day or it's just a fucking shit idea, which I have all the time, like, I know that ultimately that's going to come back to bite me in the ass. So why should I do that? And again, like, that dynamic is one of the reasons why I think the people that are deciding like, "Yeah, I'm gonna, even if it's unpopular, even if it's..." And the same goes for you. You know? Like, you could continue to sort of spout cotton candy for the soul at people-

    19. SCSeerut K. Chawla1:11:13

        Mm-hmm.

    20. CWChris Williamson1:11:14

        ... but to say something which is gonna get you as many haters as it do, does lovers is a more difficult path. Yeah. I, I, I love it. I, I really appreciate your, your, uh, contrarian, uh, slightly, uh, prickly, but very, very honest, uh, approach to all of this stuff. I think that it's a very important redress to the sort of cod psychology stuff that we do see on the internet. And it validates people in a much more honest way. Like, it is still validation. It's just not the kind of sort of cotton candy for the soul validation that everyone's looking for. So let's say that

12. 1:11:50 – 1:12:32

    Where to Find Seerut

    1. CWChris Williamson1:11:50

       someone's loved what they've heard today, where should they go to find out more of the posts that you've got and everything else that you do?

    2. SCSeerut K. Chawla1:11:55

       Um, you can find me on Instagram and on Twitter and my handle in both places is my full name, Seerat K. Chawla. Um, my website is the same, myname.com, and that links to this online community there I run with courses and so on, if that interests people. Um, so yeah, that's where you can find me online. Don't try and find me in person, please. (laughs)

    3. CWChris Williamson1:12:18

       (laughs) Oh, yeah. Seerat-

    4. SCSeerut K. Chawla1:12:19

       (laughs)

    5. CWChris Williamson1:12:19

       ... I really appreciate you. Thank you.

    6. SCSeerut K. Chawla1:12:21

       Thank you so much.

    7. CWChris Williamson1:12:23

       If you enjoyed that episode, then press here for a selection of the best clips from the podcast over the last few weeks. And don't forget to subscribe.

Episode duration: 1:12:32