Modern WisdomHow Did The Modern World Get So Ugly? - Sheehan Quirke
EVERY SPOKEN WORD
150 min read · 30,110 words- 0:00 – 14:26
Why the World Desperately Needs More Charm
- CWChris Williamson
What is beauty?
- SQSheehan Quirke
It's one hell of a question. Um, I think the word is overused and misunderstood. The best way to think about beauty, the most helpful way, is to think of it as synonymous with the word love. Once you do that, all the complications kind of fade away. I think beauty is basically love manifest in the physical world. But anyway, so, so th- that's how I think of beauty, 'cause I think-
- CWChris Williamson
Because you're a hopeless romantic.
- SQSheehan Quirke
Oh, I'm a hopeless romantic. Well, I, I'm a hopeful romantic, let's say.
- CWChris Williamson
Okay. Yeah, yeah.
- SQSheehan Quirke
But I, I think the problem is, once you start talking about beauty, like what is beauty, it's kind of like asking, what is art? Right? It's a very, very interesting question, but you can end up talking... We, we could spend the whole, you know, two hours or however long we're gonna be here just talking about, well, maybe beauty's this, maybe beauty's that, but what about this? Same with art, I think it's very helpful to agree on a pretty simple definition and then move on to the more important stuff. So, so taking beauty, I think people obsess too much over the idea of, you know, beauty... Like, is the modern world beautiful? Is architecture beautiful? Is design beautiful? Is this room beautiful? I don't think it's helpful. I think more helpful words are interesting, charming, and meaningful. They're the words I prefer to use.
- CWChris Williamson
Delineate those for me.
- SQSheehan Quirke
So, (laughs) well, I think interesting is the opposite of, of boring. And I think, you know, a lot of what I write about online, um, and what (laughs) generates an awful lot of interest is when you talk about the ugliness of the modern world. But I think boringness is a much more important and powerful word, 'cause again, ugly and, and, and beautiful, they're, they're very... They feel very subjective. But when you say boring, it's a lot easier to agree on what is boring. And I think something being boring is a bigger problem. I, I've often said to my friends the one thing human beings cannot stand is being bored. Like, we can put up with a lot of stuff. We can put up with suffering and misery and, and-
- CWChris Williamson
And ugliness.
- SQSheehan Quirke
... and ugliness. We can put up with that. But being bored is, is, is, is the worst thing. And I, I think actually being bored has driven a lot of, uh, events and move- movements in, in, in human history. I often think a lot of revolutionaries end up being revolutionaries just because they're bored, and a revolution is exciting. It's the chance to be part of something. And, uh... Anyway, yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Okay. So we've got interesting, which is the opposite of boring-
- SQSheehan Quirke
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
... presumably sort of engaging-
- SQSheehan Quirke
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
... captures attention, maybe memorable.
- SQSheehan Quirke
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And then, um, charming. Now, I love the word charming. It, it's probably my favorite word. It's my, it's my word of the year. You know charm when you see it. And charm, I think, is, is a kind of playfulness. It's not too serious, and it also respects the person looking at something or, or viewing something. When you make it charming, right, there's no obvious use to charm. You know, there, there's not really a profit margin there.
- CWChris Williamson
It's functional.
- SQSheehan Quirke
Yeah, exactly. But when it's charming, it's like, "Oh, wow, the person who made this thing has thought about, has thought about me. They wanted to give me, you know, something, s- s- something to look at, something to, to make me smile." I think that's... Ch- charm- charmingness is kind of like playfulness, I guess.
- CWChris Williamson
Whimsy in the experience.
- SQSheehan Quirke
Yeah. And it doesn't have to be like, you know, Wes Anderson level of, of whimsy, but it just has to show that there's something about this object, um, that isn't just interesting in, in, in the straight sense of, like, having something to it other than what is basically necessary, but also, um, yeah, m- uh, makes you smile and kind of reminds you. In a way, in a way, charm, what it does, it gets you out of your, your thoughts, you know, walking around and, you know, miserable, thinking about, "Gotta email this per-" I think this all the time. I, I hate email so, "I've gotta email this person. I've gotta, I've gotta read Chris Williamson's text," or whatever.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- SQSheehan Quirke
And then, you know, then I see something charming and I, and I smile, and think, "You know what? You know-"
- CWChris Williamson
Which is also Chris Williamson's text.
- SQSheehan Quirke
(laughs) Ah, yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- SQSheehan Quirke
Indeed, and then you think the world isn't so bad. And then finally, meaningful, which I guess... I mean, this conversation is more about the, the physical world than anything else. And meaningful basically, uh, can mean a few different things. But, uh, a, a good example is when you walk around a town and, and you find that the way things have been designed reflects something about that town, its people, and, uh, and, and its history. I think that's what meaning is, and it kind of brings you out of this generic, standardized, convenient, hyper-optimized online modern world, and it brings you back into the reality we, we're living in, the one that we have been since the dawn of civilization. So meaningful, charming, and interesting are much more useful words than, than beauty. And I think also, they're much less inflammatory. Like if, you know, if I put out on, on X or something about, you know, "The modern world is, is so ugly," or, or, "Look at this, um, you know, Palace of Versailles, it's so beautiful," people start, you know, getting angry about it. But you say it's interesting, say it's charming, or you take a sort of a modern building and say, "Well, this is boring," people say, "Yeah, actually, you know what? You, you have a point. It is boring."
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- SQSheehan Quirke
It's just funny how quickly you can, um, take these... The, the charge out of these conversations by using better words.
- CWChris Williamson
I wonder whether some of this is because beauty and ugliness feels like a moral judgment.
- SQSheehan Quirke
Yes.
- 14:26 – 27:58
The Surprising Origins of Sheehan's Cultural Education
- SQSheehan Quirke
- CWChris Williamson
I saw a photo, uh, y- you, uh, are the leader into traffic in the world of viral X posts about, uh, beautiful things and interesting, meaningful charming, and, um, I saw one, I think it was the, the inside of the latch on a door.
- SQSheehan Quirke
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
So when you look at a door and there is all this engraving-
- SQSheehan Quirke
Yeah, yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Have you e- ever imagined that this is a common-
- SQSheehan Quirke
Yeah. Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
... uh, currency that you traffic in?
- SQSheehan Quirke
(laughs) Yes, yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Um, and, uh, yet another thing, you do kind of see it. No, you do. It's tr- you don't see it much, right?
- SQSheehan Quirke
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
But doors are left open-
- SQSheehan Quirke
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
... especially if it's an internal door-
- SQSheehan Quirke
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... like a kitchen door or something like that. So why not make the edge of a door-
- SQSheehan Quirke
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
... s- a, a opportunity to add charm? You go, "Well, what's a door for?" Well, it's to, uh, create a, a, a boundary line, a territory line between the kitchen-
- SQSheehan Quirke
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
... and the hallway.
- SQSheehan Quirke
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
Well, mm-hmm, but what if it could be-
- SQSheehan Quirke
Even more than that.
- CWChris Williamson
... a source of charm?
- SQSheehan Quirke
Yeah, I mean, th- the analogy here is like, is life itself, like I'm not going to ask you what is, what is the point of life right now-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- SQSheehan Quirke
... but like, universally people agree the most important things in life are love and friends, fun and adventure and achieving stuff, like all, all of that, like that is beyond the function of life. Like if I said to you, "Chris, what is the meaning of life?" And you said, "Well, it's to not die and reproduce," now some people do believe that to be fair, but most people don't think that about life. Right? Most people think a, a good life is one that has love in it-
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- SQSheehan Quirke
... and friendship-
- CWChris Williamson
It's more than raw functionality-
- 27:58 – 34:50
Is the Mona Lisa Actually Boring?
- CWChris Williamson
Dude, what a great story. You know, I'd, I'd heard this from David's side-
- SQSheehan Quirke
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
... but it's really wonderful to hear it from you. What a ... It, it's really inspired me even hearing what David did with you. Uh, I had, I've had a bunch of conversations with the, um, people who look after my accounts.
- SQSheehan Quirke
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
And, um, in America, you can start a nonprofit and do these things. It's a fucking nightmare. Because what I would love to do is start a kind of scholarship-
- SQSheehan Quirke
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
... thing where maybe once every 12 months, I find somebody or maybe a small group of people who are in your position and liberate them-
- SQSheehan Quirke
Yeah, man.
- CWChris Williamson
... to be able to go and do their thing. And it's so difficult. It's so difficult to be able to do that, because if they're an employee, then it means this, and if it's a nonprofit, then you can't be the person that chooses, because the opportunity for nepotism-
- SQSheehan Quirke
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... is, you know, obviously through the roof. It's basically a way for you to tax free funnel money from your business to other people-
- SQSheehan Quirke
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
... that you "like". And well, obviously I like them if I want to support them, because I think they're good-
- SQSheehan Quirke
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
... but oh, you're not allowed to li- ... So you can be the director, but then you need to have a symposium or a board of people and they would choose and you can't have in- ... And I just want to give someone, I just want to enliven one or a few people that I think are making good work to go and do it. And it turns out to be really difficult. So that's a work in progress problem.
- SQSheehan Quirke
But you got to make ... You, you got to ... 'Cause honestly like patronage is like a very old-fashioned way to make things happen. In the, in the modern, sort of throughout the 20th century, you had establishments, you know, you had the publishers and the media, broadcast and organizations. That's where you went to get stuff done. Now we have the online creator economy as it's called. You become an influencer, you know, li- li- like us I guess, you know, you get sponsorships-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- SQSheehan Quirke
... or, or you know, you have a Substack.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- SQSheehan Quirke
The old-fashioned way is a guy who has some spare money finds people who are talented and, and gives them that money. Right? And then that's how so many of the world's most famous and beloved works of art appeared, pretty much all of them. Like, you know, Michelangelo didn't paint the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel based on, you know, uh, S- Substack subscriptions. He didn't have a sponsor. Pope Julius II said, "Michelangelo, you're the best artist, um, in Italy right now. I'm going to pay you 400,000 ducats," or whatever it was, "to paint the ceiling of my chapel." And he did it.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- SQSheehan Quirke
Same as the Mona Lisa, right? The Mona Lisa, which is ... Which one is pretty boring and overrated. Painting. But anyway, it was commissioned by a guy, um, Leonardo was back, back in, um-... Florence, after being in Milan for a while, and this guy, he'd just got married and was moving to a new house. Said, "Leonardo, I want you to paint a portrait of my wife." So here's a load of money, paint a portrait of my wife. Like, this is how great art throughout history, and many books as well, that, and poems and stuff, that's how they appeared. Somebody with the funds directs it directly to the person who needs it, and then it gets created. Patronage. It's an old-fashioned system, but I think maybe it has a future in, in our modern world.
- CWChris Williamson
Tell me more about your opinion on the Mona Lisa.
- SQSheehan Quirke
Ha. Well look, I, I think, I mean, there's an- a few facts about it. First of all, here's a question. Who is the Mona Lisa? What is she called?
- CWChris Williamson
It's not, uh, after Mona Lisa?
- SQSheehan Quirke
Well, no. Her name is Lisa. But I think that there's something interesting about the fact that the most, the most famous painting in the world, the w- the most fa- in, in some sense, the, the mo- the, the woman with the most famous face in history, no one knows what she's called. Her name was Lisa Gherardini, or, or Lisa del Giocondo when, when she got married. Um, and also, th- the crazy thing is, she, she never actually saw the painting finished. Leonardo was a famous procrastinator. He would just fricking take forever to do anything. And, uh, he actually left Italy with the painting. He went off to, to, to live in France, 'cause the King of France, uh, asked him to come and work for him.
- CWChris Williamson
He was in high demand.
- SQSheehan Quirke
Yeah, he hired him and he took the painting. So, th- uh, Lisa Gherardini never saw the finished portrait, which is kind of crazy, I think, and also-
- CWChris Williamson
She died before it was done?
- SQSheehan Quirke
No, no, sorry, he took it... So, so Leonardo took it, took the portrait with him to, to France-
- 34:50 – 54:07
Why Liberals Shouldn't Ignore Traditional Architecture
- SQSheehan Quirke
- CWChris Williamson
What else have you got by way of, uh, example? I'm excited for what comes next.
- SQSheehan Quirke
Yeah. No, I've got some really, some really good stuff there.
- CWChris Williamson
Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, some deep cuts from the world of architecture and art.
- SQSheehan Quirke
So the reason I brought these is, again, just to illustrate the points I'm making. Um, now I could say, "Oh, just Google it," but it's much easier if I show it myself here. Now, a big part of my work online, a big part of the book, but not only the book, and a big part of this documentary, this short film, which is being released tomorrow as we speak. Um, made it with David Prell.
- CWChris Williamson
Congratulations.
- SQSheehan Quirke
Thank you very much. It's a 15 minute short film, and we're treating it as a standalone piece and as a pilot for a future series we want to make about art and architecture.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- SQSheehan Quirke
With... And learning from art and architecture about life in the 21st century. It's called The Modern World, actually, 'cause I think we can learn a lot about life now and how to improve it by looking at art and architecture and things like that in the past. And people are crying out, I... For a sort of a high quality art documentary series. Anyway, now what I think is really important, my, my life's work in a way, is to establish first of all that there is a problem with the way the world looks today and the way we design it. And then secondly, this is the crucial part, to establish a consensus around this issue. A problem I ran into pretty early on which I hadn't anticipated is that as soon as I started writing about this, you know, this, this like Just bollo- like people have very strong views about it. Um, most people are inclined to agree, and like the polls show very clearly, studies and polls show very clearly that people are dissatisfied with how things look, and that they generally prefer traditional-... to modern architecture.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- SQSheehan Quirke
But I found that as soon as I started writing about it, people have all these connotations based on whether they think they're left-wing or right-wing. There's this idea, for example-
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- SQSheehan Quirke
No, it's, it's, it's a big issue 'cause people think if you're... To criticize modernism, right, so like modern architecture-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- SQSheehan Quirke
... to criticize that must mean that you're somehow like a, a traditionalist conservative, e- even a fascist. And also, if you want to revive traditional architecture, you must therefore be a conservative or, or, or a fascist. Um, and, and then people also think if you defend modern architecture, the conservatives think you're like a radical socialist or a communist. And all of this is, is, is, is, it's complete nonsense. It's just not true. Now... So that's the second part. I want to demolish these misguided political associations around, around the issue and establish a consensus, which is why I've brought some li- little graphics. So, the first thing I'll do is I just want... Thi- this should be quite good fun. Um, I just want to show you these and, and, and, and ask you what you think they are.
- CWChris Williamson
Hm.
- SQSheehan Quirke
It's not a, it's not a... It's sort of a trick question and I'm, I'm hoping you get it wrong so, so it's like-
- CWChris Williamson
Oh, they look like towers, towers of castles in some ways.
- SQSheehan Quirke
Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Right, let's have a look. These are water towers. These are 19th century water towers.
- CWChris Williamson
Wow.
- SQSheehan Quirke
So, all they do is, you know... And for people who don't know what a water tower is, like in a town or city, in order to have water pressure, you need to lift all the water up high to the pipe, right? So, that's what these are. Unbelievably, these somehow are just bits of like the most boring infrastructure you can imagine-
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- SQSheehan Quirke
... water management infrastructure.
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- SQSheehan Quirke
And yet, they look like... They're just... Th- they're so much fun, right?
- CWChris Williamson
Imagine Northumbrian Water created one of those.
- SQSheehan Quirke
(laughs) Exactly, exactly.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- SQSheehan Quirke
And what's most interesting perhaps is that these have all been decommissioned now, right? 'Cause obviously, you know, we've got more advanced technologies, and yet they still stand because people love them. They've been converted variously into houses, some of them are like gallery spaces or are viewing platforms. And again, just like the drainpipes, it's crazy to think that in the past, people believed that even something as simple and, and ostensibly boring and functional as a water tower could make a town or city more interesting. But this isn't about past versus present, which is what people assume. All I'm interested in is improving the present by learning, um, from the past. Now I'll, I'll-
- CWChris Williamson
It's difficult to learn from the future.
- 54:07 – 58:19
Is Consumerism Quietly Killing Beauty?
- SQSheehan Quirke
- CWChris Williamson
What's the excuse other than convenience and cost?
- SQSheehan Quirke
Yeah. Well, so this is where it gets really interesting. The cost point is frequently raised, that we can't afford to build like that or design like that anymore, but this kind of isn't true. Now there are two things to say about it. First of all, one point, it is a bit more expensive, but, like, anything is too expensive if you don't want it. And then the question is, is the extra investment worth making? Well, if it's gonna cost 1% more, which is usually what it's like to decor- like, decoration is so much cheaper than every other part of a building, right?... just gotta stick some pretty stuff on the front of it. Now, that's, tha- th- that's all cast iron. It's mass manufactured. This isn't made by some artist slaving away for years. You literally melt the iron, stick it in a mold, pull it out, paint it a bit, looks beautiful. Like, is an extra percent worth an increase in human happiness and joy, worth increasing, you know ... the, the, the, the lifespan of the building will be expanded by, you know, decades. Um, I dare say that that's a wise, uh, investment. And also in purely, speaking purely commercially, think of what it does for tourism. Like, cities, especially like in Europe, um, you know, in Europe people don't make stuff anymore, they manufacture stuff. Where does all the money come from? It comes from tourism. Now, you put up beautiful buildings and people from around the world will come flocking, spending all their hard earned money just to spend one night in this one freaking pretty street in your city. So, like, it's one of the best investments you can make, is in decoration. Um, that's the one people usually raise as cost. It's kind- kind of the biggest one, and it really is that simple. I, I think there's also other things we could get into that probably aren't worth addressing, um, right now. But it's ... so the point I wanna make is that it is a choice. We act like it isn't a choice. And the problem with, with that, however, is that we live in a consumerist society. And again, this is why I think traditionalists and liberals, conservatives and progressives should be united. The problem, the biggest problem with modern design isn't any, um, isn't people who want to return to the past, it's not socialism, it's not communism. The biggest problem is consumerism. Like, we live in a society where we have a culture of obsolescence, nothing's built to last, 'cause you can make more money, obviously, if you don't build things to last. But the cheapest, most convenient, quickest route is the one that we always take with everything we do. Like, everyone stands to benefit from that kind of meaningful, beautiful design, apart from, uh, if you're the, if you're a property developer or, or a planner, whatever it is, and, and you wanna spend as little money as possible and get back as much as possible in a short time span, you make it boring, you make it ugly, you don't care about how it looks.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- SQSheehan Quirke
That's the consumerism, I think, is the biggest problem.
- CWChris Williamson
In other news, this episode is brought to you by Momentous. If your sleep's not dialed, taking ages to nod off, you're waking up at random times and feeling groggy in the morning, Momentous' sleep packs ... how did I miss both of those? Are here to help. They're not your typical knock you out supplement overloaded with melatonin, just the most evidenced based ingredients at perfect doses to help you fall asleep more quickly, stay asleep throughout the night, and wake up feeling more rested and revitalized in the morning, which is why I take these things every single night, and why I trust Momentous with my life or, at least with my sleep. Because they make the highest quality supplements on the planet. What you read on the label is what's in the product and absolutely nothing else. And if you're still unsure, they've got a 30 day money back guarantee, so you can buy it completely risk free, use it, and if you do not like it for any reason, they will give you your money back. Plus, they ship internationally. Right now you can get 35% off your first subscription and that 30 day money back guarantee by going to the link in the description below, by heading to livemomentous.com/modernwisdom and using the code MODERNWISDOM at checkout. That's L-I-V-E-M-O-M-E-N-T-O-U-S dot com/modernwisdom, and MODERNWISDOM at checkout.
- 58:19 – 1:06:31
Which is the Most Beautiful Place on Earth?
- CWChris Williamson
Where do you think on the planet has got a good balance of beauty, of charm, meaning, interestingness? I imagine i- i- some unsophisticated idiot like me is immediately going to say Rome because it's so obvious and in my face. I went to Vienna for the first time this year.
- SQSheehan Quirke
Oh, hell yeah, what do you make of it?
- CWChris Williamson
I, I ... again, I, that kind of very, um, uh, I've just read my first philosophy book.com unnecessarily baroque architecture thing, for me, is very, it's easy to enjoy.
- SQSheehan Quirke
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
I find it-
- SQSheehan Quirke
Right.
- CWChris Williamson
I, I find the detail, uh, very pleasant. Um, the fact that every street that you turn down is really wonderful, I thought that was lovely. I really, really enjoyed Venice.
- SQSheehan Quirke
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
I thought Venice was fantastic, and, um, small quaint streets and higgledy-piggledy buildings-
- SQSheehan Quirke
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... leaning, almost leaning up against each other and they're being supported by bits of wood, and the wood's supported by iron, and the iron brackets are on the side of the house, and noth- no two streets look the same and all of the pavements are cracked and that was, that felt quaint to me which was charming. I think that would be very, very charming. Um, where else has got it right that I like? Uh, I'm a fan of Harrogate.
- SQSheehan Quirke
Nice.
- CWChris Williamson
I think Harrogate in the UK, Edinburgh.
- SQSheehan Quirke
Yeah, Edin- oh, Edinburgh's-
- CWChris Williamson
Phenomenal.
- SQSheehan Quirke
Just, yeah, you, when your spirits lift when you go to Edinburgh-
- CWChris Williamson
Correct.
- SQSheehan Quirke
... you're excited every corner.
- CWChris Williamson
But these are maybe not for Americans, but these are m- m- maybe more obvious examples.
- SQSheehan Quirke
No, but they're, they're, they're good examples, man. Like th- th- the-
- CWChris Williamson
Okay.
- SQSheehan Quirke
Th- th- the ... y- you made such a, like a good point, like, when you said about Vienna, like, it's easy to enjoy.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- SQSheehan Quirke
You know, I've g- I've like, yeah, I'm deep into this stuff and I, I don't like baroque architecture. I'm, I'm, I'm much more of a Gothicist, I'm much further gothic f- f- ... but, and I could sit here and talk for 12 hours about why that is, but it kind of doesn't matter what I think.
- CWChris Williamson
I just like it. I like it because I like it.
- SQSheehan Quirke
You, you just ... like, it makes you smile, you think the ... and you get out your phone and you start taking photos, you know? And, and that is what matters here. So Edinburgh, Rome, Vienna-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- SQSheehan Quirke
... other cities in the world as well, all over the world.
- CWChris Williamson
What else? Give i- give us some, uh, maybe less obvious beautiful locations that people could-
- SQSheehan Quirke
That you wouldn't think of?
- 1:06:31 – 1:22:02
Why Modern Life Makes Romance Feel So Hard
- SQSheehan Quirke
- CWChris Williamson
You mentioned earlier on, uh, you're a hopeful romantic.
- SQSheehan Quirke
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
I think I'd put myself in the same category actually. Um, wh- how do you come to think about romance in the modern world? We've spoken about beauty, something that I think people ... wistful for, struggling to find-
- SQSheehan Quirke
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... perhaps interestingness, and where is it? This sort of increasing sterilization, as they feel, of-
- SQSheehan Quirke
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
... the environments that they have to spend time in, whether inside or outside. How do you come to conceive of romance in the modern world?
- SQSheehan Quirke
So, you mentioned, um, yeah, sterilization. A really, really good word. I think romance, romance is the least convenient thing. Oop.
- CWChris Williamson
You say the word romance twice, and things start falling out of the wall. That's the way it works.
- SQSheehan Quirke
That's how it should be.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- SQSheehan Quirke
That's how it should be. We live, as I said... I think we're okay.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- SQSheehan Quirke
If someone agrees. We, we, we live in a world of convenience and of hyper-commercialized optimization.
- CWChris Williamson
Hmm.
- SQSheehan Quirke
And in this world, um, in amongst it, romance screams out as the opposite. Like, I've... I said it to a friend of mine. I think I said it to David, actually. I said, uh... We were talking. We were talking about dating, and, um, and how he's getting on. And I said, "Look, man. It's not love if it's convenient." Like, love is anything apart from convenient. Like, when you're in love, and when you're taken by these passions, right? You s- y- y- you stop doing things you should be doing. You think, "Well, I've got to work today, but I, I just, I just wanna be with this person."
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- SQSheehan Quirke
You stay up all night. You know, you arrive at work, you're tired, you're sleepless. That is not, um, convenient. And it's not beneficial to a world where your focus would be on, on, on, on, on, on kind of optimizing according to those material conditions. And yet, it's worth it, you know? And, and I, I think that's how I think of romance and why we're struggling to find it, because it runs contrary to all the instincts that are being, um, taught to us by the wor-... Like, I don't think you can schedule romance, you know? And I think online dating culture, it, it, it has transformed the way maybe we think about love into something that, that, that fits into a broader scheme of, of a scheduled and organized life. And I think it narrows the scope of possibility for passion to sweep you away, you know? And, and, and that is why I... That, that, that... Yeah. That's how I think of romance. Does that answer the question or not?
- CWChris Williamson
To a degree, it does. I think the inconvenience makes an awful lot of sense. Uh, you know, to go from your slightly more artistic, whimsical approach to my remote area of expertise of evolutionary psychology and mating dynamics. Humans have two attachment systems.
- SQSheehan Quirke
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
We have the passionate and the companionate. And the passionate is, uh, highly irrational. It's the honeymoon phase. It's obsession. A lot of anxiety. Uh, it's very painful.
- SQSheehan Quirke
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
And it's also very beautiful. It's the rush. It's the spark. Uh, you're unable to focus on anything. It wouldn't make for a particularly good society. It certainly wouldn't really even make for a particularly good family life. There's a lot of articles online. You can go and find, "This couple kept their honeymoon phase going for 20 years, and here's how you can do it too."
- SQSheehan Quirke
(laughs) Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
And there's a bit of me that thinks, "Oh, that sounds nice in some ways, because there's the rush, and there's the novelty, and there's the uncertainty, and oh, isn't it exciting?" I would not want to be the child of parents who at 10- I'm 10 years old or five years old, and they're still in the honeymoon phase. I don't think that you're executive functioning. That's why you stay up late, right?
- SQSheehan Quirke
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
You should go to bed.
- SQSheehan Quirke
You should go to bed, yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
It's a good idea to go to bed. Um, something I imagine you tell yourself all the time-
Episode duration: 1:55:30
Install uListen for AI-powered chat & search across the full episode — Get Full Transcript
Transcript of episode tOezS6uCGg8
Get more out of YouTube videos.
High quality summaries for YouTube videos. Accurate transcripts to search & find moments. Powered by ChatGPT & Claude AI.
Add to Chrome