How Did The Modern World Get So Ugly? - Sheehan Quirke

Chris Williamson 0:00 What is beauty?

Sheehan Quirke 0:03 It's one hell of a question. Um, I think the word is overused and misunderstood. The best way to think about beauty, the most helpful way, is to think of it as synonymous with the word love. Once you do that, all the complications kind of fade away. I think beauty is basically love manifest in the physical world. But anyway, so, so th- that's how I think of beauty, 'cause I think-

Chris Williamson 0:29 Because you're a hopeless romantic.

Sheehan Quirke 0:31 Oh, I'm a hopeless romantic. Well, I, I'm a hopeful romantic, let's say.

Chris Williamson 0:33 Okay. Yeah, yeah.

Sheehan Quirke 0:34 But I, I think the problem is, once you start talking about beauty, like what is beauty, it's kind of like asking, what is art? Right? It's a very, very interesting question, but you can end up talking... We, we could spend the whole, you know, two hours or however long we're gonna be here just talking about, well, maybe beauty's this, maybe beauty's that, but what about this? Same with art, I think it's very helpful to agree on a pretty simple definition and then move on to the more important stuff. So, so taking beauty, I think people obsess too much over the idea of, you know, beauty... Like, is the modern world beautiful? Is architecture beautiful? Is design beautiful? Is this room beautiful? I don't think it's helpful. I think more helpful words are interesting, charming, and meaningful. They're the words I prefer to use.

Chris Williamson 1:14 Delineate those for me.

Sheehan Quirke 1:16 So, (laughs) well, I think interesting is the opposite of, of boring. And I think, you know, a lot of what I write about online, um, and what (laughs) generates an awful lot of interest is when you talk about the ugliness of the modern world. But I think boringness is a much more important and powerful word, 'cause again, ugly and, and, and beautiful, they're, they're very... They feel very subjective. But when you say boring, it's a lot easier to agree on what is boring. And I think something being boring is a bigger problem. I, I've often said to my friends the one thing human beings cannot stand is being bored. Like, we can put up with a lot of stuff. We can put up with suffering and misery and, and-

Chris Williamson 1:54 And ugliness.

Sheehan Quirke 1:55 ... and ugliness. We can put up with that. But being bored is, is, is, is the worst thing. And I, I think actually being bored has driven a lot of, uh, events and move- movements in, in, in human history. I often think a lot of revolutionaries end up being revolutionaries just because they're bored, and a revolution is exciting. It's the chance to be part of something. And, uh... Anyway, yeah.

Chris Williamson 2:13 Okay. So we've got interesting, which is the opposite of boring-

Sheehan Quirke 2:16 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 2:17 ... presumably sort of engaging-

Sheehan Quirke 2:19 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 2:19 ... captures attention, maybe memorable.

Sheehan Quirke 2:21 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And then, um, charming. Now, I love the word charming. It, it's probably my favorite word. It's my, it's my word of the year. You know charm when you see it. And charm, I think, is, is a kind of playfulness. It's not too serious, and it also respects the person looking at something or, or viewing something. When you make it charming, right, there's no obvious use to charm. You know, there, there's not really a profit margin there.

Chris Williamson 2:49 It's functional.

Sheehan Quirke 2:50 Yeah, exactly. But when it's charming, it's like, "Oh, wow, the person who made this thing has thought about, has thought about me. They wanted to give me, you know, something, s- s- something to look at, something to, to make me smile." I think that's... Ch- charm- charmingness is kind of like playfulness, I guess.

Chris Williamson 3:03 Whimsy in the experience.

Sheehan Quirke 3:04 Yeah. And it doesn't have to be like, you know, Wes Anderson level of, of whimsy, but it just has to show that there's something about this object, um, that isn't just interesting in, in, in the straight sense of, like, having something to it other than what is basically necessary, but also, um, yeah, m- uh, makes you smile and kind of reminds you. In a way, in a way, charm, what it does, it gets you out of your, your thoughts, you know, walking around and, you know, miserable, thinking about, "Gotta email this per-" I think this all the time. I, I hate email so, "I've gotta email this person. I've gotta, I've gotta read Chris Williamson's text," or whatever.

Chris Williamson 3:35 Mm-hmm.

Sheehan Quirke 3:35 And then, you know, then I see something charming and I, and I smile, and think, "You know what? You know-"

Chris Williamson 3:38 Which is also Chris Williamson's text.

Sheehan Quirke 3:39 (laughs) Ah, yeah.

Chris Williamson 3:40 Yeah.

Sheehan Quirke 3:41 Indeed, and then you think the world isn't so bad. And then finally, meaningful, which I guess... I mean, this conversation is more about the, the physical world than anything else. And meaningful basically, uh, can mean a few different things. But, uh, a, a good example is when you walk around a town and, and you find that the way things have been designed reflects something about that town, its people, and, uh, and, and its history. I think that's what meaning is, and it kind of brings you out of this generic, standardized, convenient, hyper-optimized online modern world, and it brings you back into the reality we, we're living in, the one that we have been since the dawn of civilization. So meaningful, charming, and interesting are much more useful words than, than beauty. And I think also, they're much less inflammatory. Like if, you know, if I put out on, on X or something about, you know, "The modern world is, is so ugly," or, or, "Look at this, um, you know, Palace of Versailles, it's so beautiful," people start, you know, getting angry about it. But you say it's interesting, say it's charming, or you take a sort of a modern building and say, "Well, this is boring," people say, "Yeah, actually, you know what? You, you have a point. It is boring."

Chris Williamson 4:47 Mm-hmm.

Sheehan Quirke 4:47 It's just funny how quickly you can, um, take these... The, the charge out of these conversations by using better words.

Chris Williamson 4:54 I wonder whether some of this is because beauty and ugliness feels like a moral judgment.

Sheehan Quirke 4:59 Yes.

Chris Williamson 4:59 It feels like a value... So I, I, I got a speech coach, who you met, at the Leicester Square-

Sheehan Quirke 5:06 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 5:06 ... at, at, uh, sorry, London last year, Backstage Miles, and, um, when I started working with him, some of my friends said, "Working with a speech coach is going to sort of neutralize your identity. W- w- what, what if you l- lose your speaking cadence?"

Sheehan Quirke 5:20 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 5:20 "What if you lose who you are?" And I found it really fascinating, 'cause I realized that there were, uh, preferable and less preferable, more optimal and less optimal ways to speak, in the same way there are to write, and in the same ways that there are to sing or play the piano. And nobody would say to you, learning to play the piano, "Well, why are you going to that piano teacher? What about the lovely natural way that you play the piano?"

Sheehan Quirke 5:42 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 5:42 And you say, "Well, yeah, but it sucks." Or it could be refined.

Sheehan Quirke 5:45 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 5:45 Even if I'm great, it can be refined.

Sheehan Quirke 5:47 Sure.

Chris Williamson 5:47 Um, so what it taught me was that there are certain things that people attach closely to our sense of self, like the way that we speak, and there are other things that people don't attach so closely to our sense of self, like the way that we play the piano. And it feels to me like beauty...... is this word that's imbued with moral weight, with judgment. Oh, it's- it's- it's the sense of the building, or the piece of art, or the poem itself, as opposed to a simple comment on the way that it presents.

Sheehan Quirke 6:18 Yeah, exactly right. So imagine like, you know, before you'd seen this- this- this, um, vocal coach. I said, you know, "Chris, the way you talk is ugly, man." That- that- that feels quite offensive.

Chris Williamson 6:26 Mm-hmm.

Sheehan Quirke 6:27 But if I said to you, you know, "The way you talk, you could-"

Chris Williamson 6:29 It's boring.

Sheehan Quirke 6:29 "... work and you can..." (laughs) Yeah, it's boring. Suddenly like, "Oh, wow, really? Like I need to w-"

Chris Williamson 6:33 I should work on that.

Sheehan Quirke 6:33 Yeah, exactly.

Chris Williamson 6:34 I should work on my ugliness.

Sheehan Quirke 6:36 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 6:36 Doesn't feel quite the same level of... what are you getting at? I wanna see. You brought-"

Sheehan Quirke 6:42 So- so yeah.

Chris Williamson 6:43 You bought props.

Sheehan Quirke 6:43 I bought props, yeah, yeah.

Chris Williamson 6:44 I'm so excited.

Sheehan Quirke 6:45 I went to Snappy Snaps couple of hours ago.

Chris Williamson 6:46 Oh, thank you.

Sheehan Quirke 6:47 I spent two hours in there 'cause I- I- I'm not very good at emailing and I sent all the wrong files and there were Google Workspace attachments.

Chris Williamson 6:52 If you spent more- if you spent more time on your emails, you'd be better at sending emails when you go to Snappy Snaps.

Sheehan Quirke 6:57 Well, we can get into that, but-

Chris Williamson 6:58 Okay, yeah, here we are.

Sheehan Quirke 6:59 ... the good news is, so to- in terms of to illustrate, 'cause w- what I find is that when you talk about these things, having visual illustrations help so much. You know the old saying, a paint- uh, a picture paints a thousand words. It's so true. And all you- I- I've found in order to make points effectively, all you have to do is contrast two things.

Chris Williamson 7:15 Mm-hmm.

Sheehan Quirke 7:15 Put two images next to each other and- and it says everything. So, when we talk about things being beautiful versus ugly, interesting versus boring, I have some pictures of drain pipes.

Chris Williamson 7:24 (laughs)

Sheehan Quirke 7:24 Now, I love drain pipes and gutters and air conditioning units and re-... like I love all the stuff that the world is filled with. It's amazing, you sort of don't really pay attention to it, but it- once you start noticing how much fricking stuff there is in the world, like g- you know, go outside on the street, any- anybody here, you know, listening or- or watching, um, when you've finished watching, which is hopefully not just yet-

Chris Williamson 7:45 Mm.

Sheehan Quirke 7:45 ... um, go outside and just look at how many things there are on the street outside. There's liter-... like, the cars, the signs, the windows, the- the- the drains, everything, and all of that has been designed, right? This stuff didn't just appear. Like all- everything in this room, for a second, it's all manmade. Like someone had to decide how all this stuff looked. And I guess my big gripe, and the thing that bothers a lot of people, is that all these things around us feel increasingly boring and standardized and generic, regardless of beauty. So, I have some pictures of drain pipes.

Chris Williamson 8:16 Mm.

Sheehan Quirke 8:16 And, uh, I will show them. Hope... I mean, I can maybe... I don't know if you can put them on.

Chris Williamson 8:19 Yeah, we can- we can put them on.

Sheehan Quirke 8:20 Yeah. So, these are some 19th century drain pipes.

Chris Williamson 8:23 Wow.

Sheehan Quirke 8:25 And like, I'm not gonna sit here and tell you these are beautiful. Like I think that that would l- be crazy for me to say, "Oh, Chris, isn't it- isn't this beautiful, isn't it?" But what it is, it's charming, it's interesting, it's fun and it's meaningful.

Chris Williamson 8:35 Mm.

Sheehan Quirke 8:36 And it's- i- it's- it's basically, it shouldn't be revolution- revolutionary idea, but it is. That drain pipes can actually improve the appearance of a town or city or a home.

Chris Williamson 8:48 Mm.

Sheehan Quirke 8:48 Right? You think of it as something that has to be functional, and you wanna get it out the way, but you still have to see it and it's like, "Well, you know, it's kind of ruining this wall." No, our drain pipes can make our towns and cities more beautiful. They can make our lives better.

Chris Williamson 8:58 Make drain pipes beautiful again.

Sheehan Quirke 9:00 Exactly, yeah. And so here's another one comparing some of the same to some modern, uh, more modern drain pipes.

Chris Williamson 9:06 Uh-huh. How would you categorize the difference between the two in terms of what's- what they are, if you were trying to describe them to someone?

Sheehan Quirke 9:14 W- what do you mean?

Chris Williamson 9:14 So, you have this list on the right and this list on the left.

Sheehan Quirke 9:17 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 9:18 What is the difference between those two? Because they do the same thing.

Sheehan Quirke 9:22 Well, that's... I don't think they do do the same thing, but-

Chris Williamson 9:24 Functionally, they do the same thing.

Sheehan Quirke 9:26 Yes. Well, but this is the point. So- so, you know this famous line, um, "Form follows function," right? Every- everyone knows that line. And everyone sort of thinks what that means is that the function is what matters and appearance is, you know, d- doesn't matter. That's kind of how people interpret it. That we shouldn't care about appearances, we should just care about how it works. But the guy who said that, Louis Sullivan, the great American architect who kind of solved the big skyscraper problem in the late 19th century. So skyscrapers, they appeared in America, uh, in Chicago first in the late 19th century, and like no one had ever seen a skyscraper before, so no one knew how to make them look. And the first skyscrapers is so... if- if you- if you look, you can go and see them all, like the photos, the first skyscrapers i- in America were basically just like stacks of smaller buildings, you know?

Chris Williamson 10:07 Yeah.

Sheehan Quirke 10:07 They sort of take what would normally be a three-story building and just replicate that for another 10 stories.

Chris Williamson 10:12 Just Command C, Command V.

Sheehan Quirke 10:14 Yeah (laughs) exactly.

Chris Williamson 10:15 Open up.

Sheehan Quirke 10:15 And Sullivan realized that this is- this is nonsense, it's not working, and he identified the chief characteristic of skyscrapers as what he called loftiness, you know, their height. And when he said form follows function, he was the guy who said it, what he meant is at its innermost purpose, the appearance must, um, be- be suited to that. So what he did was he got rid of this weird multiplication thing and basically just made all the stories the same from the top to the bottom with all these horizontal lines and kind of, um, he- but yeah, in short, he figured out how to make them- make them look good.

Chris Williamson 10:47 Mm-hmm. I've done an architectural boat tour.

Sheehan Quirke 10:50 Of?

Chris Williamson 10:50 Chicago.

Sheehan Quirke 10:51 Oh, wow.

Chris Williamson 10:52 Uh, this... I mean, so many people do this tour. It's musically... at least mine was musically accompanied. The guy, maybe it was a harmonica, but I went on my own. I was there on tour and, uh, I went on my own. It's fucking freezing and I wore shorts 'cause I'm an idiot, and I was enthralled. It was brilliant. It was so cool and you go and you see the fire... they do this, where the fire was. It goes down-

Sheehan Quirke 11:11 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 11:11 ... it does a U-turn and you see everything of one side and you see everything of the other. I think it's got the tallest skyscraper in the world that was, uh, designed by a woman there.

Sheehan Quirke 11:19 Cool.

Chris Williamson 11:19 Uh, it's got the Tuning Fork Building with this sort of unbelievably thin-

Sheehan Quirke 11:23 Yeah, yeah.

Chris Williamson 11:23 ... base and the way that they had to structure that in order for it to go. The most hilarious thing as you're pulling in, at the very beginning you go underneath the bridge from the harbor, you pull through and they're showing you all of the different buildings and he's going sort of from right to left all the way around, right at the end, right in the middle, huge, big thing, big letters, Trump Tower, Chicago.

Sheehan Quirke 11:45 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 11:45 And this guy's going on, "It is the tallest building in the world that was built by a woman and it is using the granite that was imported from East Germany and..." da-da-da-da. And moving over to the left-

Sheehan Quirke 11:54 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 11:54 ... and he just completely leapfrogs the Trump thing, and like it's probably safe.

Sheehan Quirke 11:59 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 11:59 It's probably safe. Because some people are gonna pro-

Sheehan Quirke 12:02 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 12:02 ... hurray you for doing it, some are gonna be not so happy and they just made the executive decision that...We'll, f- we'll forget that building, uh-

Sheehan Quirke 12:09 Yeah, yeah.

Chris Williamson 12:09 ... I thought, I thought it was quite funny, but-

Sheehan Quirke 12:11 No, it sort of is, but by the way, we, we may need to mention that name again later in this, in this conversation-

Chris Williamson 12:16 Yeah.

Sheehan Quirke 12:16 ... because Trump is weirdly, and maybe unfortunately, important in this conversation. You know, he, he, he, in both his terms has done these executive orders to say that all federal buildings need to be in traditional architectural styles.

Chris Williamson 12:28 Mm-hmm.

Sheehan Quirke 12:29 Which is, uh, I think in some ways good and in some ways bad. But actually, I, I will put a bookmark there and we'll come back to it, because on, on this point about form and function.

Chris Williamson 12:38 Yes.

Sheehan Quirke 12:38 Sullivan decorated his buildings, right? Like, his skyscrapers have this beautiful sort of ornate terracotta paneling and, you know, all these floral wreaths and stuff. His point was just that the decoration should be suited to what the building is. The problem he felt in the 19th Century, why he said that, is 'cause people decorated everything the same, and he was saying, "No, no, we need to decorate and design things according to their purpose," not that they shouldn't be decorated. And in my view, with those two different, um, sets of drain pipes, he said, you know, they're both functio- functionally the same. But I don't, I disagree. I think any object we design, not in all cases, you know, I don't need the inside of my laptop-

Chris Williamson 13:13 Mm-hmm.

Sheehan Quirke 13:14 ... to look beautiful, right?

Chris Williamson 13:15 Mm-hmm.

Sheehan Quirke 13:15 It's just got to fricking work, which it still does, by the way, all these years later. Um, but I think anything that's in the built environment, in our homes, in our offices, in our streets, if it's not making that environment more humane, if it's not making the lives of people there better, it is not fulfilling its, its entire function.

Chris Williamson 13:34 Mm-hmm.

Sheehan Quirke 13:34 So those drain pipes on the right-hand side, I, I don't, uh, don't seem like I'm picking on them, you know, they do their job, whi- which is great, but my point is very simple. It's just like, if we can also make drain pipes that do their job and, like, make the world a more interesting place to live in-

Chris Williamson 13:48 Mm-hmm.

Sheehan Quirke 13:49 ... shouldn't we be doing that? And now, th- the why things have changed and how to achieve it, we may get into that. But I think that's the first point to establish. And, um, yeah, th- this sounds kind of shocking to people, but drain pipes can be not beautiful, but charming. You know, like all those weird creatures or whatever, like imagine, you know, you're walking down the street and you see those, it, it, it does something which doesn't occur when it's just a plain metal or plastic pipe.

Chris Williamson 14:13 Well, it's interesting when you say, um, "Form follows function," but you ask, "What is the function?"

Sheehan Quirke 14:17 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 14:18 Is the function to add charm to your day? So there's no reason that the job of a drain pipe needs to begin and end with water.

Sheehan Quirke 14:24 Exactly, yeah. Yeah.

Chris Williamson 14:26 I saw a photo, uh, y- you, uh, are the leader into traffic in the world of viral X posts about, uh, beautiful things and interesting, meaningful charming, and, um, I saw one, I think it was the, the inside of the latch on a door.

Sheehan Quirke 14:44 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 14:44 So when you look at a door and there is all this engraving-

Sheehan Quirke 14:47 Yeah, yeah.

Chris Williamson 14:47 Have you e- ever imagined that this is a common-

Sheehan Quirke 14:49 Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 14:49 ... uh, currency that you traffic in?

Sheehan Quirke 14:51 (laughs) Yes, yeah.

Chris Williamson 14:51 Um, and, uh, yet another thing, you do kind of see it. No, you do. It's tr- you don't see it much, right?

Sheehan Quirke 14:57 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 14:57 But doors are left open-

Sheehan Quirke 14:58 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 14:58 ... especially if it's an internal door-

Sheehan Quirke 14:59 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 14:59 ... like a kitchen door or something like that. So why not make the edge of a door-

Sheehan Quirke 15:03 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 15:04 ... s- a, a opportunity to add charm? You go, "Well, what's a door for?" Well, it's to, uh, create a, a, a boundary line, a territory line between the kitchen-

Sheehan Quirke 15:13 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 15:13 ... and the hallway.

Sheehan Quirke 15:14 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 15:14 Well, mm-hmm, but what if it could be-

Sheehan Quirke 15:17 Even more than that.

Chris Williamson 15:18 ... a source of charm?

Sheehan Quirke 15:18 Yeah, I mean, th- the analogy here is like, is life itself, like I'm not going to ask you what is, what is the point of life right now-

Chris Williamson 15:25 Mm-hmm.

Sheehan Quirke 15:25 ... but like, universally people agree the most important things in life are love and friends, fun and adventure and achieving stuff, like all, all of that, like that is beyond the function of life. Like if I said to you, "Chris, what is the meaning of life?" And you said, "Well, it's to not die and reproduce," now some people do believe that to be fair, but most people don't think that about life. Right? Most people think a, a good life is one that has love in it-

Chris Williamson 15:49 Yeah.

Sheehan Quirke 15:49 ... and friendship-

Chris Williamson 15:49 It's more than raw functionality-

Sheehan Quirke 15:51 ... and fun. So that, the way we view life is re- that view of life is reflected in drain pipes like those-

Chris Williamson 15:56 Wow. What did it take?

Sheehan Quirke 15:57 ... where it does more

Narrator 15:57 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 15:57 Drain pipes are life.

Sheehan Quirke 15:58 Yeah. But it's funny you mention the, the vire- the virality of these things is so interesting to me, like because this is kind of how I got started on X or Twitter as it was then.

Chris Williamson 16:06 Now, why don't you tell the story? Tell us the, g- g- regale us with how you began... wh- how you became The Cultural Tutor.

Sheehan Quirke 16:12 So, how did I become The Cultural Tutor? So, uh, my name is Shane Quirk. I was born in, in Scunthorpe of all places actually. Anyway, that's not really relevant. Well, it is maybe relevant, but I won't go into that just yet. So I went to university and then when university finished, this weird thing happened where all my friends (laughs) had plans and they went into their master's degrees, they went and got jobs in the City of London as lawyers and accountants, and, and all that. And I, and I, and it kind of took me by surprise 'cause I, I just, I just did not have a plan at all. So I'd always wanted to be a writer. I've always been writing and reading, you know, since I was a child my head has been... I've just, you know, my, my bedroom as a child was filled with nothing but books. And I always wanted to write and I've been writing since I was, you know, since I could first hold a pen basically. And I'd always thought it would happen and then this... then after I left university without a plan, I sort of got into this state of complacency where I was expecting life to just hand it to me on a plate. I sort of thought one day someone would knock on the door and say, "Shane, we've heard you're a great writer. Here's a book deal." Obviously, that's not how the world works. So I got a job as a, uh, security guard sort of more or less, this was four years ago, um, doing the night shifts, you know, which I loved. I loved the night shifts, the 12-hour night shift.

Chris Williamson 17:24 At?

Sheehan Quirke 17:25 At... in my old university actually. So it was when COVID came, COVID came, um, and then (laughs) they ran out of, of, of night watchmen or porters as, as they're called 'cause guys were off sick, they didn't want to work and all the students had gone and I was still living there just in like a small house wi- with my girlfriend at the time. And I needed a job, so they rang me and said, "Shane, we don't have any, uh, porters left. Do you want to be one?" Normally they're sort of guys who are in their 50s, 60s, semi-retired, retired. I said, "Sure, like I need a job." So I did that and I spent a year and a half, um, unblocking toilets and like fixing door handles and, uh, sitting (laughs) sitting through the whole night and doing rounds and making sure no one was trying to break in or steal anything. And in those night shifts I would write and stuff and watch films, um, but, but in terms of the big picture, n- wh- where I wanted to be in life it wasn't happening. I wasn't unhappy-But, um, things weren't heading in any particular direction. I left that job and then I realized I didn't have any money. Um, I didn't have a job for about three months. Uh, I ran out of money, and I needed to pay the rent on this house I was living in. I borrowed money from my friends and my family. And I just needed a job as quick as I could, so I just went on Indeed, applied to everything. Um, Pizza Hut rejected me, but McDonald's said yes. And so, on- on the 2nd of January, 2022, I went for my interview, and then two days later I was there. And I wasn't a burger flipper. I was a maintenance person, so my job was to take in the stock. You know, I'd get in at- at sort of six in the morning. The truck would arrive, bring in all the fries and all the sausages, which were packed in Scunthorpe, as it happens.

Chris Williamson 18:55 Mm-hmm.

Sheehan Quirke 18:56 And the chicken came from Cambodia, which surprised me. You know, I'd get into the freezer, stock it all up, and then I'd have to get out the jet washer and go and clean the car park. You know, there's McFlurries everywhere, and tomato ketchup. The- the McDonald's tomato ketchup, um, when it solidifies is like-

Chris Williamson 19:10 Viscous? Okay.

Sheehan Quirke 19:11 ... rock, is like rock solid.

Chris Williamson 19:12 Wow.

Sheehan Quirke 19:13 You have to fricking get, like, boiling hot water to get that stuff off the walls. So that's what I was doing. And there was just no sign of this ending, and I wasn't earning enough money to actually pay back all my friends. And I guess it was a bit of a spiral. And then I have a very good friend, Harry Dry, who you may know.

Chris Williamson 19:29 Of course. Yeah, yeah.

Sheehan Quirke 19:30 He- he's a, he's- he's a genius, and, uh, and also a fiercely loyal, brilliant friend, who- who tells it how it is. And- and, you know, I was, one day I w- I was with him and I was giving him all these ideas, like, "Oh, Harry, yeah, I'm gonna, I'm gonna write this- this novel about this, and, you know, I think I'm gonna make a film." And he's like, he's like, "Sheen, Sheen, all you're doing is telling me that you're gonna do all these things and not do anything." And, uh, he said s- this great line, he said, "What you lack is deadlines, not ideas. You lack deadlines, not ideas." And it was like, well, maybe one of the most important things anybody's said to me. And I had this, what I call my Mulan moment. Have you seen Mulan? The Disney film, Mulan? Not the most recent one. The- the- the animated-

Chris Williamson 20:06 A long time ago.

Sheehan Quirke 20:07 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 20:08 You might need to...

Sheehan Quirke 20:08 Well, anyway, so there's this wonderful scene in the film where Mulan, um, her father gets called to war, but he's very old, very sick. He doesn't have any sons. And- and the eldest male member of the family has to go off to war. Mulan, she loves her father, doesn't want him to go off and die fighting, so she goes in his place, which obviously they don't want- want- want her to do. But she has to pretend to be a man. So there's this wonderful scene in the film where the synths kick in, it's the middle of the night, and she goes and gets her father's armor, gets out his sword and she cuts off her hair.

Chris Williamson 20:34 Mm-hmm.

Sheehan Quirke 20:34 She cuts off her hair so she can ride off to war as a man. And I kind of had that moment, it was this one day, when I s- I thought, "You know what? I'm just gonna quit my job at McDonald's, and gonna just give everything I've got t- t- t- to getting to where I think I should be." And I took off my- my McDonald's beanie for the last time, and my y- big yellow jacket, and it felt like that moment in Mulan. The- it was like a point of no return. I did a few things. I applied to film school, they rejected me. I applied to the army, and went through the whole process. They actually offered me a place at Sandhurst, which I said no to, because by then, something else had taken off, which was this Twitter account I made. My plan had been to make some money. Uh, how can you make m- some money? Well, by tutoring. Online tutoring is quite a good way to make money. Your people sometimes pay, like, fricking 50 pounds an hour for a good online tutor. And I thought, "Well, I'm gonna tutor people not in maths or- or f- well, I'm talking about maths, or- or- or law. I did law at university, I don't wanna tutor law." I thought I wanted to do cultural tutoring. I thought some parents might want their kids to be more rounded. So I thought, "Maybe they'll pay me to- to tutor their kids, um, in poetry and architecture and art," which I've always loved, you know. Um, and so I made a, I made this little website offering tutoring lessons, and then how do you get, uh, eyes on the website? I made a Twitter account, hoping to drive traffic towards this website so people would book in tutoring sessions and I could finally make some money. What did I call the Twitter account? Well, The Cultural Tutor, because that's what- what I thought I was. And, uh, and I put this little statue of Plato as a profile picture. And within six weeks, it became pretty clear that no one wanted me to tutor them, but they did like what I was writing about. And after six weeks, I had 100,000 followers on- on- on Twitter, as it was then. And kind of from there to here, it's been, um, a dream. But what I did, I- I said, when I made the Twitter account, I- I was gonna post a- a thread every single day for a month, and just see where- where it gets me. Obviously, the first 10 threads, you don't get a single like. So I would stay up all night, like, going on Twitter, searching for other people who'd posted about church windows, seeing who'd liked it, then message those people, say, "Hey, I saw you liked this post about church windows. I've just written one too. D- y- you might be interested." And sort of, you know, after a week, you're getting two likes on a post.

Chris Williamson 22:44 That's really bootstrapping your way to virality.

Sheehan Quirke 22:46 Oh, man, yeah, yeah. And I- I- but I was- I was obsessed. It was like, uh, I had this clear-mindedness, which is a very rare thing in life. It's very rare to- to be able to have that level of- of- of- of focus and determination.

Chris Williamson 22:57 Mm-hmm.

Sheehan Quirke 22:58 And what started out as a month ended up being two and a half years. So for two and a half years, I posted every single day online.

Chris Williamson 23:04 What was the first day that you didn't post, like?

Sheehan Quirke 23:08 Um, it was, uh, when I was writing my book. It was after I got the book deal, and there was this one day when I thought, like, "I have a choice today. I can either make this particular chapter of the book better, or I can post on X." And at that point I thought, "You know what? It's very hard to let go of something like that." Like, it's really hard to let go of a ritual, 'cause that was my life. Like, I would just... I was obs- like, I would, you know, I said no to all my frie- if ever there was a, you know, friends going out, I'd say, "No, I've- I've got to write on Twitter." They'd say, "Wh- why the hell do you- you want to tweet instead of hanging out with your friends?"

Chris Williamson 23:40 Mm-hmm.

Sheehan Quirke 23:40 And like, remember, sometimes I would go out, and then I'd get home at 5:00 AM and stay up till 8:00 AM putting something out on Twitter. And eventually it got to a point where I was where I needed to be. I had my dream, which was to have a book deal, and then that became the focus. Um, and a key part of the story is Mr. David Perel, who you know, of course.

Chris Williamson 23:57 Mm-hmm.

Sheehan Quirke 23:57 Uh, he saw I was going viral online and he reached out to me and he just, in this fantastically American way, just said, "Let's get on FaceTime." And I said, "We're on a FaceTime." He said, "Look, Sheen, I really like your work, and- and I'm guessing you need to make some money from this, but rather than you monetizing your audience..."... and trying to, you know, maybe start a Substack, and then you turning your focus from the wider public to your audience, I'm gonna support you. I'll be your patron. I'm gonna pay you a living wage, a good wage, and all you have to do is write every single day." And thanks to David, and then his, his, his patronage of me, um, I was able to write every single day and then get to where I am now, with like, you know, nearly 2 million followers or whatever, and a book deal, and some other exciting projects on the way. So that's how it happened, and it kind of bring, brings us back to where we started. I mean, may- maybe, I don't know if you want any sort of, if you have any comments on that or any reflections. It was one hell of a journey. Um, but the post like that went viral, the post that took me from ... I- I'd sort of ground my way after five and a half weeks to 15,000 followers.

Chris Williamson 24:55 Mm-hmm.

Sheehan Quirke 24:55 Which is pretty good. But then I did a couple of posts and they got like, you know, less than 100 likes, and I was thinking, "Maybe this is it. I'm washed." I don't know if you ever have. I mean, you've, you've been, you know, you're an old hand now.

Chris Williamson 25:05 Mm-hmm.

Sheehan Quirke 25:06 And anyone who works online will know the, sort of the dread and anxiety that hangs on your back, right? 'Cause you live by those numbers.

Chris Williamson 25:14 Yeah.

Sheehan Quirke 25:14 And as soon as they dip, even by a half percent, you're like, "This is it. This is my time, you know, my 15 minutes of fame is done." And I was, I was really mad, really mad. And I, I was staying with my mum at the time. And I thought, you know, and, and I decided to write about something, which had always bothered me. This one, I used to moan to my friends about it all the time, which was this thing we're talking about. 'Cause ever since I was a kid, I'd always thought like, "Why is stuff so boring?" Like, and you know, I'd look at all the things and think, "Well, they're so pretty, so interesting. Why is modern stuff so boring?" So I wrote about that online. I did bring a screenshot actually of this post (laughs) just to kind of show the point. This was the post. It's called the de- the, the, the...

Chris Williamson 25:50 The danger and the-

Sheehan Quirke 25:52 The dan-

Chris Williamson 25:52 The Danger of Minimalist Design and the Death of Detail: A Short Thread.

Sheehan Quirke 25:56 Yeah. So it got 440,000 likes.

Chris Williamson 25:59 Yeah, that'll, that, that'll-

Sheehan Quirke 26:00 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 26:00 ... build a 15K account.

Sheehan Quirke 26:02 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 26:02 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Sheehan Quirke 26:02 And it got me 90, 90,000 followers overnight.

Chris Williamson 26:05 Wow.

Sheehan Quirke 26:05 And what's so funny about it, you know, this is, what's so funny about it and so interesting, I mean look at the lead image. It's just two bollards, right? It's like a typical old bollard. It's not even that interesting.

Chris Williamson 26:14 Mm-hmm.

Sheehan Quirke 26:15 But then it's a typical new bollard. And what it turned out is that people all over the world had been feeling exactly the same way, that things are boring and generic these days, and that people are crying out for the world to be a more interesting, charming, and meaningful place.

Chris Williamson 26:34 A quick aside, I've been drinking AG1 every morning for years. Uh-huh. Uh-huh. And it just got even better. AG1 Next Gen keeps the same simplicity, one scoop once per day, but now comes with four clinical trials backing it. In those trials, AG1 Next Gen was clinically shown to fill common nutrient gaps, improve key nutrient levels within three months, and increase healthy gut bacteria by ten times, even in healthy adults. Basically, they've upgraded the formula with better probiotics, more bioavailable nutrients, and clinical validation. And it's still NSF certified for sport, which means that you know the quality is legit. I actually got to meet the team that runs AG1, all of the top bods, at a offsite a couple of months ago here in Austin. And I was really impressed. They took my feedback on board. They were very receptive. And I actually think that they put some of my ideas, uh, into the product and the new marketing. So, uh, any success that you see going forward from now can be exclusively attributed, uh, to me. So, hooray for me. And if you're still unsure, they've got a 90-day money back guarantee. So you can buy it and use it every single day for three months, and if you don't like it, they'll just give you your money back. Right now, you can get a year's free supply, vitamin D3, K2, and five free AG1 travel packs, plus that 90-day money back guarantee by going to the link in the description below or heading to drinkag1.com/modernwisdom. That's drinkag1.com/modernwisdom.

Chris Williamson 27:58 Dude, what a great story. You know, I'd, I'd heard this from David's side-

Sheehan Quirke 28:02 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 28:02 ... but it's really wonderful to hear it from you. What a ... It, it's really inspired me even hearing what David did with you. Uh, I had, I've had a bunch of conversations with the, um, people who look after my accounts.

Sheehan Quirke 28:15 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 28:15 And, um, in America, you can start a nonprofit and do these things. It's a fucking nightmare. Because what I would love to do is start a kind of scholarship-

Sheehan Quirke 28:24 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 28:25 ... thing where maybe once every 12 months, I find somebody or maybe a small group of people who are in your position and liberate them-

Sheehan Quirke 28:35 Yeah, man.

Chris Williamson 28:35 ... to be able to go and do their thing. And it's so difficult. It's so difficult to be able to do that, because if they're an employee, then it means this, and if it's a nonprofit, then you can't be the person that chooses, because the opportunity for nepotism-

Sheehan Quirke 28:47 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 28:47 ... is, you know, obviously through the roof. It's basically a way for you to tax free funnel money from your business to other people-

Sheehan Quirke 28:53 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 28:53 ... that you "like". And well, obviously I like them if I want to support them, because I think they're good-

Sheehan Quirke 28:58 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 28:58 ... but oh, you're not allowed to li- ... So you can be the director, but then you need to have a symposium or a board of people and they would choose and you can't have in- ... And I just want to give someone, I just want to enliven one or a few people that I think are making good work to go and do it. And it turns out to be really difficult. So that's a work in progress problem.

Sheehan Quirke 29:19 But you got to make ... You, you got to ... 'Cause honestly like patronage is like a very old-fashioned way to make things happen. In the, in the modern, sort of throughout the 20th century, you had establishments, you know, you had the publishers and the media, broadcast and organizations. That's where you went to get stuff done. Now we have the online creator economy as it's called. You become an influencer, you know, li- li- like us I guess, you know, you get sponsorships-

Chris Williamson 29:39 Mm-hmm.

Sheehan Quirke 29:39 ... or, or you know, you have a Substack.

Chris Williamson 29:41 Mm-hmm.

Sheehan Quirke 29:41 The old-fashioned way is a guy who has some spare money finds people who are talented and, and gives them that money. Right? And then that's how so many of the world's most famous and beloved works of art appeared, pretty much all of them. Like, you know, Michelangelo didn't paint the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel based on, you know, uh, S- Substack subscriptions. He didn't have a sponsor. Pope Julius II said, "Michelangelo, you're the best artist, um, in Italy right now. I'm going to pay you 400,000 ducats," or whatever it was, "to paint the ceiling of my chapel." And he did it.

Chris Williamson 30:11 Mm-hmm.

Sheehan Quirke 30:11 Same as the Mona Lisa, right? The Mona Lisa, which is ... Which one is pretty boring and overrated. Painting. But anyway, it was commissioned by a guy, um, Leonardo was back, back in, um-... Florence, after being in Milan for a while, and this guy, he'd just got married and was moving to a new house. Said, "Leonardo, I want you to paint a portrait of my wife." So here's a load of money, paint a portrait of my wife. Like, this is how great art throughout history, and many books as well, that, and poems and stuff, that's how they appeared. Somebody with the funds directs it directly to the person who needs it, and then it gets created. Patronage. It's an old-fashioned system, but I think maybe it has a future in, in our modern world.

Chris Williamson 30:45 Tell me more about your opinion on the Mona Lisa.

Sheehan Quirke 30:47 Ha. Well look, I, I think, I mean, there's an- a few facts about it. First of all, here's a question. Who is the Mona Lisa? What is she called?

Chris Williamson 30:56 It's not, uh, after Mona Lisa?

Sheehan Quirke 30:58 Well, no. Her name is Lisa. But I think that there's something interesting about the fact that the most, the most famous painting in the world, the w- the most fa- in, in some sense, the, the mo- the, the woman with the most famous face in history, no one knows what she's called. Her name was Lisa Gherardini, or, or Lisa del Giocondo when, when she got married. Um, and also, th- the crazy thing is, she, she never actually saw the painting finished. Leonardo was a famous procrastinator. He would just fricking take forever to do anything. And, uh, he actually left Italy with the painting. He went off to, to, to live in France, 'cause the King of France, uh, asked him to come and work for him.

Chris Williamson 31:31 He was in high demand.

Sheehan Quirke 31:32 Yeah, he hired him and he took the painting. So, th- uh, Lisa Gherardini never saw the finished portrait, which is kind of crazy, I think, and also-

Chris Williamson 31:38 She died before it was done?

Sheehan Quirke 31:39 No, no, sorry, he took it... So, so Leonardo took it, took the portrait with him to, to France-

Chris Williamson 31:44 Oh.

Sheehan Quirke 31:44 ... um, before it was finished, and then he finished it in France and then gave it to the King of, King of France, Francis I, he was called.

Chris Williamson 31:50 Oh.

Sheehan Quirke 31:50 Anyway.

Chris Williamson 31:50 Here's a painting of someone else's wife, enjoy.

Sheehan Quirke 31:52 Well it's, you know... Yeah, I guess, I guess. But yeah, it's Leonardo. So y- like even then, the guy was a celeb- even then. Like his reputation now-

Chris Williamson 31:58 Savant.

Sheehan Quirke 31:59 ... it hasn't changed at all, like-

Chris Williamson 32:00 Right.

Sheehan Quirke 32:00 ... people then worship the guy. But I just think it's a shame that the most famous painting in the world i- is a f- is a, is a relatively boring portrait.

Chris Williamson 32:08 Why is it boring?

Sheehan Quirke 32:10 Well, if you look at other paintings and the things that might get people interested in art. Like, you, i- imagine... 'Cause like I'm passionate about art, you know, it's my lifeblood. But the way our culture works, like if you wanna get someone interested in art and they kind of start get- looking into it and they see that the most famous product of the entire history of art is just, is, is like a, a woman smiling, um, it's, I don't think it's gonna excite them particularly.

Chris Williamson 32:34 What do you wish was the replacement? If you were to say, "Hey, the world is gifted. I can hot swap the Mona Lisa for something else."

Sheehan Quirke 32:44 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 32:45 "This would be a good front end of the funnel for people into art."

Sheehan Quirke 32:49 Sure. I, I think there's a few contenders.

Chris Williamson 32:51 Contenders.

Sheehan Quirke 32:51 Yes. Some of which are already quite well-known. Look, it depends on the person, 'cause I think when someone's, for example, like, like young, when they're a teenager, I think you need something a bit more brash and exciting. If you look at the, the paintings of a guy like John Martin, he was a 19th century English painter. From County Durham, actually.

Chris Williamson 33:06 Okay.

Sheehan Quirke 33:07 And, um, he painted these kind of crazy biblical catastrophic landscapes, you know, and there's lightning and there's thunder and there's like cities blowing up and there's gigantic waves. And, and it's epic, you know, it, it, it's just like sort of watching Lord of the Rings, but in a single painting. Like, that kind of thing is exciting. Also, you know, another painting which is very, very famous. You know, The Garden of Earthly Delights by Hieronymus Bosch. That one is pretty famous, um, and I think paintings more like that are more likely to get people excited about art. Um-

Chris Williamson 33:37 A little bit more interesting.

Sheehan Quirke 33:39 Yeah, the, yeah, they're b- they're basically more... Look, 'cause I, look, I don't, I don't hate the Mona Lisa. I mean, if you like it then you like it. But I think people should be free to call it boring if they want. This is another prob- Like art, the problem with art, like, it's in this space where people feel very intimidated, you know, they, they feel ignorant. And, and-

Chris Williamson 33:54 Yes, I certainly do.

Sheehan Quirke 33:56 Sure. And, and then, and then suddenly they feel like they're not allowed to say the Mona Lisa is boring, because-

Chris Williamson 34:00 It feels unrefined.

Sheehan Quirke 34:01 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 34:01 Like, I don't get the joke that everybody else gets-

Sheehan Quirke 34:03 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 34:03 ... or I don't get the, the subtext. I'm not sufficiently sophisticated.

Sheehan Quirke 34:08 Yeah, yeah, yeah. Exactly, exactly. Whereas my view is, the only thing you need to get into art, uh, you only need two things. Your eyes and your heart. That's all you need. And you've got to fall in love with it. And that's a lot of my work has, has been that. Just trying to put art out there, not in the context of art, but in the context of just something that's not that different to cinema-

Chris Williamson 34:26 A nice drainpipe.

Sheehan Quirke 34:27 Yeah, exa- or a nice fricking drainpipe. Yeah, man. E- e- exactly. Um, anyway, so that's... But h- how did, w- w- how did the Mona Lisa come up?

Chris Williamson 34:35 Uh...

Sheehan Quirke 34:35 Okay.

Chris Williamson 34:36 I... You were explaining... I think you were going through a, a, a bunch of... Oh, it was, uh, da Vinci, Michelangelo, he's laid on the ceiling, he takes it with him-

Sheehan Quirke 34:44 Yeah. So, th- th- this thing you're thinking of doing, man, I c- good luck with that. Good luck with that, because th- it, it, it... Who knows what it might lead to?

Chris Williamson 34:50 What else have you got by way of, uh, example? I'm excited for what comes next.

Sheehan Quirke 34:54 Yeah. No, I've got some really, some really good stuff there.

Chris Williamson 34:56 Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, some deep cuts from the world of architecture and art.

Sheehan Quirke 35:00 So the reason I brought these is, again, just to illustrate the points I'm making. Um, now I could say, "Oh, just Google it," but it's much easier if I show it myself here. Now, a big part of my work online, a big part of the book, but not only the book, and a big part of this documentary, this short film, which is being released tomorrow as we speak. Um, made it with David Prell.

Chris Williamson 35:23 Congratulations.

Sheehan Quirke 35:24 Thank you very much. It's a 15 minute short film, and we're treating it as a standalone piece and as a pilot for a future series we want to make about art and architecture.

Chris Williamson 35:32 Mm-hmm.

Sheehan Quirke 35:32 With... And learning from art and architecture about life in the 21st century. It's called The Modern World, actually, 'cause I think we can learn a lot about life now and how to improve it by looking at art and architecture and things like that in the past. And people are crying out, I... For a sort of a high quality art documentary series. Anyway, now what I think is really important, my, my life's work in a way, is to establish first of all that there is a problem with the way the world looks today and the way we design it. And then secondly, this is the crucial part, to establish a consensus around this issue. A problem I ran into pretty early on which I hadn't anticipated is that as soon as I started writing about this, you know, this, this like Just bollo- like people have very strong views about it. Um, most people are inclined to agree, and like the polls show very clearly, studies and polls show very clearly that people are dissatisfied with how things look, and that they generally prefer traditional-... to modern architecture.

Chris Williamson 36:29 Mm-hmm.

Sheehan Quirke 36:30 But I found that as soon as I started writing about it, people have all these connotations based on whether they think they're left-wing or right-wing. There's this idea, for example-

Chris Williamson 36:38 (laughs)

Sheehan Quirke 36:38 No, it's, it's, it's a big issue 'cause people think if you're... To criticize modernism, right, so like modern architecture-

Chris Williamson 36:45 Mm-hmm.

Sheehan Quirke 36:46 ... to criticize that must mean that you're somehow like a, a traditionalist conservative, e- even a fascist. And also, if you want to revive traditional architecture, you must therefore be a conservative or, or, or a fascist. Um, and, and then people also think if you defend modern architecture, the conservatives think you're like a radical socialist or a communist. And all of this is, is, is, is, it's complete nonsense. It's just not true. Now... So that's the second part. I want to demolish these misguided political associations around, around the issue and establish a consensus, which is why I've brought some li- little graphics. So, the first thing I'll do is I just want... Thi- this should be quite good fun. Um, I just want to show you these and, and, and, and ask you what you think they are.

Chris Williamson 37:35 Hm.

Sheehan Quirke 37:35 It's not a, it's not a... It's sort of a trick question and I'm, I'm hoping you get it wrong so, so it's like-

Chris Williamson 37:39 Oh, they look like towers, towers of castles in some ways.

Sheehan Quirke 37:44 Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Right, let's have a look. These are water towers. These are 19th century water towers.

Chris Williamson 37:49 Wow.

Sheehan Quirke 37:49 So, all they do is, you know... And for people who don't know what a water tower is, like in a town or city, in order to have water pressure, you need to lift all the water up high to the pipe, right? So, that's what these are. Unbelievably, these somehow are just bits of like the most boring infrastructure you can imagine-

Chris Williamson 38:03 (laughs)

Sheehan Quirke 38:03 ... water management infrastructure.

Chris Williamson 38:05 (laughs)

Sheehan Quirke 38:05 And yet, they look like... They're just... Th- they're so much fun, right?

Chris Williamson 38:08 Imagine Northumbrian Water created one of those.

Sheehan Quirke 38:10 (laughs) Exactly, exactly.

Chris Williamson 38:12 Yeah.

Sheehan Quirke 38:12 And what's most interesting perhaps is that these have all been decommissioned now, right? 'Cause obviously, you know, we've got more advanced technologies, and yet they still stand because people love them. They've been converted variously into houses, some of them are like gallery spaces or are viewing platforms. And again, just like the drainpipes, it's crazy to think that in the past, people believed that even something as simple and, and ostensibly boring and functional as a water tower could make a town or city more interesting. But this isn't about past versus present, which is what people assume. All I'm interested in is improving the present by learning, um, from the past. Now I'll, I'll-

Chris Williamson 38:52 It's difficult to learn from the future.

Sheehan Quirke 38:54 Indi- (laughs) Indeed. Uh...

Chris Williamson 38:57 We'll get back to talking in just a minute, but first, some things are Built for Summer: sunburns, hot girl walks, your ex posting their Euro road trip, and now, lemonade and salt. Huh? LMNT just dropped their brand new lemonade salt flavor and it's everything that you want on a hot day: tart, salty, and stupidly refreshing. It's like a grown-up lemonade stand in a stick with actual function behind the flavor. Because, let's be real, if you're sweating through workouts, sauna sessions, or just walking to your car in July, then you are losing more than just water. LMNT replaces the electrolytes that your body actually needs: sodium, potassium, and magnesium, with no sugar, no junk, and no nonsense. I've been drinking it every single day for years, and in the Texas heat, this lemonade flavor in a cold glass of water is unbelievably good. Best of all, they've got a no questions asked refund policy with an unlimited duration, so you can buy it and try it for as long as you want, and if you don't like it for any reason, they'll give you your money back, and you don't even need to return the box. That's how confident they are that you'll love it. Plus, they offer free shipping in the US. Right now, you can get a free sample pack of LMNT's most popular flavors with your first purchase by going to the link in the description below or heading to drinklmnt.com/modernwisdom. That's drinklmnt.com/modernwisdom.

Sheehan Quirke 40:10 Now, so the first... To, to establish that there is... I mean, look at this, this is another screenshot of a, of a tweet I did.

Chris Williamson 40:15 Mm-hmm.

Sheehan Quirke 40:15 So this is like, um... What you... I can't read, what does it say?

Chris Williamson 40:18 Uh, "Why are cities all around the world starting to look the same?"

Sheehan Quirke 40:21 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 40:22 You got the USA, Japan, Russia, Colombia, Germany, Ethiopia, Brazil, Taiwan, Poland, Australia, Spain, China. These are high-rise skyscrapers...

Sheehan Quirke 40:34 Yeah. They, they, they, they just want like... It all looks the same, right? And, and what's... So I did this and, mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 40:38 So glass, steel, vertical lines.

Sheehan Quirke 40:41 And it's got like 174,000 likes. You know, so like people really care about this issue. Like people feel very, very strong. Like the easiest way to get traction online is just to post t- two images. One of like a nice old thing, one of a crappy new thing, and everyone loves it because everyone feels it to be true.

Chris Williamson 40:58 Mm-hmm.

Sheehan Quirke 40:58 Yeah, and it, it creates like a global issue as well. So like with those water towers, with those drain pipes, the reason I want to show them to you is just to, to, to kind of give an example of two things. First of all, the fact that things have changed, that we don't design things how we used to. And secondly, to show that it's possible to make boring things, to make infrastructure interesting, meaningful, and charming. So, that is the, the problem. Now, at this point people start getting very angry. And if I can sort of address the two sides, um, one after the other, this is what I would say. So, so I think it's very important to defend modern architecture, but it's not popular with the public, even though, um, a certain sort of group of architects and planners love it. The general public do not like modern architecture. Look at any study, any poll. Look at (stutters) you know, look where people go. Look at where tourists take photos, right? When tourists come to London, where do they want to go and take photos? In front of the pretty, old buildings. Where do people want to go on holiday? They go to Paris, they go to Rome, they go to Venice-

Chris Williamson 42:06 Mm-hmm.

Sheehan Quirke 42:06 ... they go to Kyoto.

Chris Williamson 42:07 Mm-hmm.

Sheehan Quirke 42:07 They wanna see beautiful, old buildings, right? What the public want is very clear. That being said, I think it's very important to defend modern architecture. There's this idea, I think maybe among conservatives, um, and what you might call more right-wing or traditionalist people, which are all such unhelpful terms... Anyway, that modern architecture, these big sort of boring concrete tower blocks, skyscrapers, that they replaced these baroque palaces and these charming cottages. But the truth is that, you know, this, this is the kind of...This is the kind of thing they replaced. Now, this photo was taken in the Netherlands in the 1930s.

Chris Williamson 42:40 Okay. This is a mud hut?

Sheehan Quirke 42:44 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 42:45 It's a family of three, two adults and an infant. Uh, I'm not doing this for the visually impaired-

Sheehan Quirke 42:52 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 42:52 ... I'm doing it 'cause some people are just listening. A black and white photo of what looks like farmland-

Sheehan Quirke 42:56 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 42:57 ... middle of a field, essentially. I think there's a wheel. Is that a wheel?

Sheehan Quirke 43:00 Yeah. D- d- it's

Narrator 43:00 Looks like a bicycle tire, doesn't it? Yeah.

Chris Williamson 43:00 ... on the top of the house. Yeah. So it's very low. It's basically the height of... Maybe even slightly lower than the height of people. It's an A-frame sort of... There seems to be a bigger bit at the back. But I mean, it- it's halfway between a mound of dirt and a tent made out of wood-

Sheehan Quirke 43:18 Yeah. Right.

Chris Williamson 43:18 ... with a chimney.

Sheehan Quirke 43:19 Would you want to live there?

Chris Williamson 43:21 No.

Sheehan Quirke 43:21 Probably not. Now, most people throughout history were living in conditions not totally dissimilar to this. Like, throughout most of history until the last century, people were living in conditions of absolute squalor-

Chris Williamson 43:35 Mm-hmm.

Sheehan Quirke 43:35 ... and material misery.

Chris Williamson 43:36 Mm-hmm.

Sheehan Quirke 43:37 And all these modern buildings which are very easy to criticize aesthetically, they look (laughs) pretty nice when you compare them to that sort of thing.

Chris Williamson 43:45 Mm-hmm.

Sheehan Quirke 43:45 Modern architecture, using concrete and steel and glass and plastic, building quickly and cheaply and efficiently, basically gave the world a roof over its head. It lifted humanity out of material squalor and into a world where they could have, you know... The, the, y- they weren't living in, in, in, in places like that, where you're warm, and you're dry, and there's no danger of imminent collapse. So it's really important, I think, that more conservative or traditionalist people recognize that modern architecture has actually been a blessing for humankind insofar as quality of life is, is concerned. I also think a lot of modernist buildings are very beautiful, but, but that's kind of a separate point. I think they can be lovely, and I think... Like, like I like The Shard, you know, and I like The Gherkin. These buildings are so much fun, and I wouldn't want to see a world where we didn't build those. So-

Chris Williamson 44:33 Definitely not boring, though.

Sheehan Quirke 44:34 Don't... Exactly, they're not boring. Exactly. That's also true.

Chris Williamson 44:36 And they're charming.

Sheehan Quirke 44:37 And they're charming.

Chris Williamson 44:37 Mm-hmm.

Sheehan Quirke 44:37 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 44:39 Meaningful.

Sheehan Quirke 44:39 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 44:41 Could be debated.

Sheehan Quirke 44:41 But I... But here's the, the, the mean- ... The world I love about these buildings is that, like, London has this fantastic, um, practice of giving buildings nicknames, right? So The Gherkin, The Shard, the fricking walkie-talkie, the cheese grater. That, I think, is meaning emerging, basically, when we give them those names. Um, you know, The Gherkin feels like a part of London. You can't imagine London without The Gherkin now.

Chris Williamson 45:00 Mm.

Sheehan Quirke 45:01 Even though 20 years ago a lot of people didn't like it. So, that's my sort of piece aimed at the traditionalists who are, I think, too overly critical of, um, modern architecture. And now the problem is, the maybe the slightly bigger problem, is that as soon as you start talking about this issue, a lot of more progressive people, generally conservat- uh, uh, progressive, maybe socialist, left-leaning liberal people think that to call for traditionalism is some kind of like retrogressive conservative fascistic worldview, which I think is clearly not the case. Like, asking for the world to be more beautiful, espe- the streets where ordinary people live and work, like, the rich can fricking afford whatever paintings they want. They can afford lovely houses. The people suffering most right now are ordinary people all over the world whose streets and homes and offices are literally making them depressed. Like, studies o- o- o- have shown... I mean, you don't even need studies to prove it, but, you, you know, I suppose it's helpful. Like, we are more stressed, more anxious, less productive, less happy when we're in boring environments. Like, why do prisons look the way they look? Like why does solitary c- confinement have nothing in it and harsh lighting? But there's this crazy situation where we literally design buildings these days in the same way that we design prisons. I mean, it's, it's kind of sad to think about but, you, you know, there's this game that some people play which is, is it a prison or is it a school? And if you look at prisons and schools built in the UK over the last 50 or 60 years, and I show you a photo of each, you can't tell which is which. Th- they look pretty-

Chris Williamson 46:31 Mm.

Sheehan Quirke 46:31 ... similar. Anyway, um, m- more to the point about why I think liberal people should embrace and progressive people should embrace this, this... some traditional architecture, bunch of reasons. One, it's more sustainable. Like, look at those water towers, right? You build something that's beautiful that people like, you don't have to demolish it. It lasts decades or hundreds of years which is way more sustainable than building things like we do now which are gonna be demolished in 20, 30 years, um, 'cause they're crappy and no one likes them. It's also more environmentally friendly. Traditional architecture is way more, um, interesting using local materials. There's also more suited to local climate. Like, why do all old houses or buildings in Northern Europe have very steep roofs, steep gables? Because it snows, right? And you don't want snow to build up on the roof. Now we have flat roofs so we spend a, like a crap ton, you know, having to, you know... We, we have to clear it and we have to heat it so it melts, da-da-da-da-da-da. It, it's a mess. Anyway, so it's more environmentally s- sustainable. And also, the final thing, I'm g- I realize I'm go- going on a bit, but this is, this is so important. Um, like, when you have beautiful stuff, like those beautiful hinges you were talking about, you know, the beautiful latches in the doors.

Chris Williamson 47:36 Mm.

Sheehan Quirke 47:37 William Morris, the great, great William Morris, 19th century poet and designer and, uh, campaigner, also a massive communist and Marxist as well. The reason he loved beautiful medieval old-fashioned design is because he felt it made people's lives more interesting when they have to use stuff, but it also made people's lives better when they had to make stuff. Like right now we're forcing people all around the world, on other sides of, of the world, to be fair, in other countries, paying them like crappy wages to make crappy boring stuff. As soon as your job involves making something interesting and beautiful and you've got some creative say in it... Like imagine if, you know, p- the bricklayers in this country, you know, we just make 'em... We, we ask them to make plain brick walls. Throughout the Middle Ages, bricklayers, what they did, they would make patterns in the walls, you know, the, the... You can, you can do wonderful things with bricks. They sound boring but bricks can be so charming, so much fun, and, um, now, you know, we don't do that. But i- in a world where we embrace beautiful design-

Chris Williamson 48:35 Mm-hmm.

Sheehan Quirke 48:35 ... everyone benefits; the people who have to make stuff and the people who have to use stuff. Anyway, that is, I think most of what-... um, is needed to be said. That I want to establish a consensus that the world can be so much more interesting, that we will all benefit from it, and that it's not a political issue.

Chris Williamson 48:52 Mm.

Sheehan Quirke 48:53 Anyway, I- I didn't, I didn't get through all my slides.

Chris Williamson 48:55 I wanna see more of your examples. Go, you, do-

Sheehan Quirke 48:57 So-

Chris Williamson 48:57 ... do the presentation.

Sheehan Quirke 48:58 Here's, here's, here's one. So here are some, here are some d- do you know what they are?

Chris Williamson 49:02 Water fountains.

Sheehan Quirke 49:03 Yeah. They're-

Chris Williamson 49:04 So, so there's a, a variety, sort of a green, the classic green's okay. It's a little, a little sterile and minimalist, but it's not bad. And then there's one that's sort of a, a real aqua blue and looks a little bit like a, like a cartoon.

Sheehan Quirke 49:21 Yeah. So these are some water fountains that have been installed around London-

Chris Williamson 49:26 Hm.

Sheehan Quirke 49:26 ... in the past sort of 10 to, to, to 20 years, and a- around the UK, actually, and th- like, they're fine, like, they do their job, um, but, uh, on, on the whole, I wouldn't say that they necessarily make the place where they are prettier or more interesting. For now, here are some Victorian water fountains.

Chris Williamson 49:46 Mm.

Sheehan Quirke 49:46 Which, uh-

Chris Williamson 49:48 They look like mini chapels.

Sheehan Quirke 49:50 They do, yeah, they do, they do. Um, they're beautiful, and they're really-

Chris Williamson 49:55 Four-sided, like, yeah, I mean, that, that almost looks like a, a fountain that you would go to.

Sheehan Quirke 50:01 Yes (laughs) .

Chris Williamson 50:02 Like, where ducks would swim and-

Sheehan Quirke 50:03 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 50:03 ... yeah.

Sheehan Quirke 50:03 Exactly, and, and, uh, there, there's a few points on this, but I'll, I'll, I'll keep it relatively brief, and the main one to me is that when you see something like this, when this much care and thought has been put into designing water fountains, which are one of the most important kinds of public, um, architecture you can have, right, like, water is a sacred thing, it is, it is, it is the source of life, um, when you treat the public and treat water in this way, um, I think everyone is, i- is, is much happier. And now, th- the, the other, the other slides I can probably kind of speed through them.

Chris Williamson 50:38 No, there's no speeding-

Sheehan Quirke 50:39 Um-

Chris Williamson 50:39 ... through anything. We can indulge as much as you want.

Sheehan Quirke 50:41 We can, we can, but th- there's, there's just so much exciting stuff to talk about here.

Chris Williamson 50:44 Mm.

Sheehan Quirke 50:44 So this one is, um, kind of fun. So you remember I showed you the screenshot of how all modern architecture looks the same?

Chris Williamson 50:53 Mm-hmm.

Sheehan Quirke 50:53 All these skyscrapers.

Chris Williamson 50:54 Mm-hmm.

Sheehan Quirke 50:54 Well, it turns out in the past things weren't actually necessarily so different, like here's, here's one of-

Chris Williamson 51:01 Wow.

Sheehan Quirke 51:02 ... classical st-

Chris Williamson 51:02 Ireland, Mexico, Greece, India, Russia, Cuba, USA, Philippines, Argentina, and these are all quite sort of Baroque style-

Sheehan Quirke 51:13 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 51:13 ... pillars with the classic A-frame Greek s- uh, uh, Greek, what is that, what's it-

Sheehan Quirke 51:19 Pediment.

Chris Williamson 51:20 Pediment.

Sheehan Quirke 51:20 It's called a pediment, yeah. Yeah, and they all look the same, basically.

Chris Williamson 51:23 Mm-hmm.

Sheehan Quirke 51:23 All over the world, and it's the same here.

Chris Williamson 51:25 Difference being I think people don't mind when they think-

Sheehan Quirke 51:28 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 51:28 ... it's pretty.

Sheehan Quirke 51:29 No, they, they don't mind, exactly.

Chris Williamson 51:30 Yeah.

Sheehan Quirke 51:30 But, but I think it's important to recognize that we, we shouldn't romanticize the past, even though I'm prone to doing that. I think I've got better in recent years-

Chris Williamson 51:38 Mm.

Sheehan Quirke 51:38 ... at being much more realistic about what things were like. But it's interesting, first of all, you know, that people don't mind homogenous architecture when it's pretty, but also that things in the past were also, you know, it's not like there was necessarily more variety, and these ones are kind of more to the point, again, it's just, like, fricking loads of buildings that look the same.

Chris Williamson 51:53 Wow, look at that sort of gothic-

Sheehan Quirke 51:56 Yep.

Chris Williamson 51:56 ... style cathedrals. Uh, UK, Norway, Slovakia, Germany, Czechia?

Sheehan Quirke 52:02 Oh, Czechia. I guess that's the Czech Republic.

Chris Williamson 52:04 Czechia.

Sheehan Quirke 52:05 Not r-

Chris Williamson 52:05 Uh, Italy. That one in Italy is insane. Uh-

Sheehan Quirke 52:07 Yeah. That's in Milan.

Chris Williamson 52:09 Uh, Hungary, Portugal, and Belgium all-

Sheehan Quirke 52:12 Mm-hmm. Again, they're all very, very similar, right, 'cause th- they're all part of the same... And that was kind of a... And then, sorry, there, there is one more of these, which is a now Byzantine style architecture.

Chris Williamson 52:21 Okay, so this is with domes.

Sheehan Quirke 52:23 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 52:24 Uh, a little bit lighter color, a lot of white, some, some yellows in there as well, um.

Sheehan Quirke 52:32 And again, they, they all look very similar. So th- I, I, I kind of like making that point just because, again, m- perhaps, um, more, some people who are more traditionally aligned tend to forget that there were phases in the past when buildings looked the same all around-

Chris Williamson 52:48 Mm.

Sheehan Quirke 52:48 ... the world, but then the equal point that you made straight away is that people don't mind architecture, or they, they don't mind when it's homogenous if it's pretty.

Chris Williamson 52:56 Mm.

Sheehan Quirke 52:56 Then the final thing, it's a bit, came out a bit blurry unfortunately, but anyway, what do you think this building is? Wh- wh- wh- what do you think that is?

Chris Williamson 53:04 I think it's a church.

Sheehan Quirke 53:05 Sure. That's what anyone would think.

Chris Williamson 53:08 Okay. Are you gonna tell me it's a-

Sheehan Quirke 53:10 So th-

Chris Williamson 53:10 ... showers or something?

Sheehan Quirke 53:11 So this is-

Chris Williamson 53:12 A bath house?

Sheehan Quirke 53:12 ... this is a still from a documentary, actually. I was r- I was, it was, it's been my dream for years to visit this place and to film there.

Chris Williamson 53:18 Where is it?

Sheehan Quirke 53:18 So th- this is, it's called Crossnes Pumping Station. This is a sewage, uh, facility.

Chris Williamson 53:24 (laughs)

Sheehan Quirke 53:26 When London's new sewers were built in the 19th century, um, they needed a pumping station, um, a few mile, like, about, you know, 20 miles east closer to the, the, the mouth of the Thames, and the Victorians thought this was how you should design a s- a s- a sewage facility. Um, you know, and it's just absolutely gorgeous. And this in a way sums up the change, and I think we've lost the belief, the conviction that even sewers can be beautiful, can be charming, interesting, meaningful. There are people working sewers, and-

Chris Williamson 54:07 What's the excuse other than convenience and cost?

Sheehan Quirke 54:11 Yeah. Well, so this is where it gets really interesting. The cost point is frequently raised, that we can't afford to build like that or design like that anymore, but this kind of isn't true. Now there are two things to say about it. First of all, one point, it is a bit more expensive, but, like, anything is too expensive if you don't want it. And then the question is, is the extra investment worth making? Well, if it's gonna cost 1% more, which is usually what it's like to decor- like, decoration is so much cheaper than every other part of a building, right?... just gotta stick some pretty stuff on the front of it. Now, that's, tha- th- that's all cast iron. It's mass manufactured. This isn't made by some artist slaving away for years. You literally melt the iron, stick it in a mold, pull it out, paint it a bit, looks beautiful. Like, is an extra percent worth an increase in human happiness and joy, worth increasing, you know ... the, the, the, the lifespan of the building will be expanded by, you know, decades. Um, I dare say that that's a wise, uh, investment. And also in purely, speaking purely commercially, think of what it does for tourism. Like, cities, especially like in Europe, um, you know, in Europe people don't make stuff anymore, they manufacture stuff. Where does all the money come from? It comes from tourism. Now, you put up beautiful buildings and people from around the world will come flocking, spending all their hard earned money just to spend one night in this one freaking pretty street in your city. So, like, it's one of the best investments you can make, is in decoration. Um, that's the one people usually raise as cost. It's kind- kind of the biggest one, and it really is that simple. I, I think there's also other things we could get into that probably aren't worth addressing, um, right now. But it's ... so the point I wanna make is that it is a choice. We act like it isn't a choice. And the problem with, with that, however, is that we live in a consumerist society. And again, this is why I think traditionalists and liberals, conservatives and progressives should be united. The problem, the biggest problem with modern design isn't any, um, isn't people who want to return to the past, it's not socialism, it's not communism. The biggest problem is consumerism. Like, we live in a society where we have a culture of obsolescence, nothing's built to last, 'cause you can make more money, obviously, if you don't build things to last. But the cheapest, most convenient, quickest route is the one that we always take with everything we do. Like, everyone stands to benefit from that kind of meaningful, beautiful design, apart from, uh, if you're the, if you're a property developer or, or a planner, whatever it is, and, and you wanna spend as little money as possible and get back as much as possible in a short time span, you make it boring, you make it ugly, you don't care about how it looks.

Chris Williamson 57:06 Mm-hmm.

Sheehan Quirke 57:06 That's the consumerism, I think, is the biggest problem.

Chris Williamson 57:10 In other news, this episode is brought to you by Momentous. If your sleep's not dialed, taking ages to nod off, you're waking up at random times and feeling groggy in the morning, Momentous' sleep packs ... how did I miss both of those? Are here to help. They're not your typical knock you out supplement overloaded with melatonin, just the most evidenced based ingredients at perfect doses to help you fall asleep more quickly, stay asleep throughout the night, and wake up feeling more rested and revitalized in the morning, which is why I take these things every single night, and why I trust Momentous with my life or, at least with my sleep. Because they make the highest quality supplements on the planet. What you read on the label is what's in the product and absolutely nothing else. And if you're still unsure, they've got a 30 day money back guarantee, so you can buy it completely risk free, use it, and if you do not like it for any reason, they will give you your money back. Plus, they ship internationally. Right now you can get 35% off your first subscription and that 30 day money back guarantee by going to the link in the description below, by heading to livemomentous.com/modernwisdom and using the code MODERNWISDOM at checkout. That's L-I-V-E-M-O-M-E-N-T-O-U-S dot com/modernwisdom, and MODERNWISDOM at checkout.

Chris Williamson 58:19 Where do you think on the planet has got a good balance of beauty, of charm, meaning, interestingness? I imagine i- i- some unsophisticated idiot like me is immediately going to say Rome because it's so obvious and in my face. I went to Vienna for the first time this year.

Sheehan Quirke 58:42 Oh, hell yeah, what do you make of it?

Chris Williamson 58:44 I, I ... again, I, that kind of very, um, uh, I've just read my first philosophy book.com unnecessarily baroque architecture thing, for me, is very, it's easy to enjoy.

Sheehan Quirke 59:01 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 59:01 I find it-

Sheehan Quirke 59:01 Right.

Chris Williamson 59:01 I, I find the detail, uh, very pleasant. Um, the fact that every street that you turn down is really wonderful, I thought that was lovely. I really, really enjoyed Venice.

Sheehan Quirke 59:12 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 59:13 I thought Venice was fantastic, and, um, small quaint streets and higgledy-piggledy buildings-

Sheehan Quirke 59:22 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 59:22 ... leaning, almost leaning up against each other and they're being supported by bits of wood, and the wood's supported by iron, and the iron brackets are on the side of the house, and noth- no two streets look the same and all of the pavements are cracked and that was, that felt quaint to me which was charming. I think that would be very, very charming. Um, where else has got it right that I like? Uh, I'm a fan of Harrogate.

Sheehan Quirke 59:44 Nice.

Chris Williamson 59:45 I think Harrogate in the UK, Edinburgh.

Sheehan Quirke 59:47 Yeah, Edin- oh, Edinburgh's-

Chris Williamson 59:48 Phenomenal.

Sheehan Quirke 59:49 Just, yeah, you, when your spirits lift when you go to Edinburgh-

Chris Williamson 59:52 Correct.

Sheehan Quirke 59:52 ... you're excited every corner.

Chris Williamson 59:53 But these are maybe not for Americans, but these are m- m- maybe more obvious examples.

Sheehan Quirke 59:59 No, but they're, they're, they're good examples, man. Like th- th- the-

Chris Williamson 1:00:01 Okay.

Sheehan Quirke 1:00:01 Th- th- the ... y- you made such a, like a good point, like, when you said about Vienna, like, it's easy to enjoy.

Chris Williamson 1:00:07 Mm.

Sheehan Quirke 1:00:07 You know, I've g- I've like, yeah, I'm deep into this stuff and I, I don't like baroque architecture. I'm, I'm, I'm much more of a Gothicist, I'm much further gothic f- f- ... but, and I could sit here and talk for 12 hours about why that is, but it kind of doesn't matter what I think.

Chris Williamson 1:00:22 I just like it. I like it because I like it.

Sheehan Quirke 1:00:23 You, you just ... like, it makes you smile, you think the ... and you get out your phone and you start taking photos, you know? And, and that is what matters here. So Edinburgh, Rome, Vienna-

Chris Williamson 1:00:33 Mm-hmm.

Sheehan Quirke 1:00:34 ... other cities in the world as well, all over the world.

Chris Williamson 1:00:36 What else? Give i- give us some, uh, maybe less obvious beautiful locations that people could-

Sheehan Quirke 1:00:42 That you wouldn't think of?

Chris Williamson 1:00:43 Yeah.

Sheehan Quirke 1:00:44 So, um, I love, uh, Sofia in Bulgaria.

Chris Williamson 1:00:49 Okay.

Sheehan Quirke 1:00:49 Um, that's got a wonderful mix. It's got a mix of architecture, which is why I like it because for a long time it was under the Ottoman Empire.... and the same is true all around Bulgaria. You've got a lot of Ottoman-era, kind of Turkish-influenced buildings, but then you've also got, after it was independent, you've got all these 19th century Neo-Byzantine or big domed cathedrals, and then you've got art nouveau, all spiraling and flowery and pastel colors. And then the, the Communists came and started building their massive brutalist monuments. And I adore brutalism. And so you go just to any city in the Balkans really, and they've got this just amazing mix. Over 500 years, you've got several different chapters of, of world, and cultural, and architectural history crammed in, on this... on the same... on, on the same street. And I love vari- I think variety is key.

Chris Williamson 1:01:34 Mm-hmm.

Sheehan Quirke 1:01:34 Again, I'll say, I'll, I'll say it once more. I wouldn't want to see a world where we just get rid of modernism and design. Like, some modern buildings are just wonderful. We mentioned the Gherkin earlier. And I think the world benefits from variety. Look, it's a law of nature. Th- there's... one of the big points they make is like, okay, but why, why do human beings like variety? Why do we need variety? Why is decoration charming to us? Like, why is a door handle with a little spiral on it nicer than a door handle that's just a bar?

Chris Williamson 1:02:01 Mm-hmm.

Sheehan Quirke 1:02:01 Because it reflects nature. You go outside and look at a tree. John Constable, the painter, has this great line, that no two leaves in the history of the universe have ever been identical.

Chris Williamson 1:02:12 Mm-hmm.

Sheehan Quirke 1:02:12 And it's true. Look at a tree. Every single leaf is different. Every single tree is different. Nature is constantly changing, and it's varied, and it's detailed. Um, and those principles of natural beauty, I think, which is the, uh, which is the environment that we were... not, not raised in, that we evolved in-

Chris Williamson 1:02:33 Mm-hmm.

Sheehan Quirke 1:02:33 ... and that we've been in since the dawn of the human species, is the one we feel most at home in.

Chris Williamson 1:02:37 Mm-hmm.

Sheehan Quirke 1:02:37 And... go ahead. Go ahead.

Chris Williamson 1:02:39 No, I, I'm just... I, I totally get it, that the, uh, the straight lines, uh, don't necessarily appear in nature, so trying to replicate, uh, some more complexity and some more uniqueness-

Sheehan Quirke 1:02:50 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:02:50 ... in design is a good idea. You mentioned brutalism there. I can see how brutalism might not be boring.

Sheehan Quirke 1:02:57 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:02:58 I would absolutely say it is not charming-

Sheehan Quirke 1:03:01 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 1:03:01 ... though.

Sheehan Quirke 1:03:02 True, true.

Chris Williamson 1:03:03 S- make the pro case for brutalist architecture.

Sheehan Quirke 1:03:09 Oh, I love this. Yeah. Oh, God, it, the, the-

Chris Williamson 1:03:10 Oh, you might need to do a tiny briefer on what brutalist architecture is as well.

Sheehan Quirke 1:03:13 Sure. So brutalism is, it's a word that conjures a lot of images in people's heads. Like, it emerged after the Second World War, in, in the late '50s, well, early '50s, and then kind of really took off in the '60s in the West, and then it took off in the Soviet Union and then the Eastern bloc a little bit later, in the '70s and, and '80s. Now, when people say brutalism, they usually mean any building that is concrete and square. That's not what brutalism is. That, that, that, that's basically just... that's the most basic form of modernism, I suppose. Brutalism, uh, properly told, is about these big, bold shapes. It's... so we know, um... do you know the National Theater or the Southbank Centre, just on the other side of Waterloo Bridge?

Chris Williamson 1:03:52 Okay.

Sheehan Quirke 1:03:53 That's like a great example of brutalism. I should probably should, should, should have added to my presentation. But what you've got is these great big cubes, and pyramids, and weird angles, and big open spaces. And it's all concrete. It's all unpainted, raw concrete, which is very honest. It, it's truthful. That's the idea. Anyway, the reason I love brutalism is because it's bold, and it's exciting, and it presents a vision for the world. It's like brutalism, you look at all this old like fancy, pretty, detailed, delicate stuff. Brutalism is the opposite of that. It is massive.

Chris Williamson 1:04:22 Mm-hmm.

Sheehan Quirke 1:04:22 It is pure geometry on a huge scale. Like, the pyramids of ancient Giza or Stonehenge are kind of brutalist.

Chris Williamson 1:04:29 Mm-hmm.

Sheehan Quirke 1:04:30 Like, imagine those things were made of concrete. Suddenly, they're brutalism. And that's what... brutalism has this like ancient monument- monumentality to it. And I think that's way more... I agree it's not charming, but not every- not everything needs to be charming. Some things should be imposing or impressive.

Chris Williamson 1:04:45 Mm-hmm.

Sheehan Quirke 1:04:45 And I think brutalism is impressive. But you... what you, what you said was so true. You said it... you don't think of it as, as boring, right? Because it's not boring. It, it's maybe ugly, but maybe ugliness is a good thing sometimes. But what did I say? The one thing we cannot bear is boredom. Ugly is fine. Boring is not fine. And brutalism, I grant that some people find it ugly. And I wouldn't want a world of brutalism, but I think it's something inspired, and to me, very optimistic. It emerged after the Second World War, you know?

Chris Williamson 1:05:14 Mm-hmm.

Sheehan Quirke 1:05:14 The whole world has been devastated by the greatest cataclysm in civil- in the history of civilization. And from the ashes emerges this new style of architecture. It l- it is, it is... like, if you, if you pick a buil- brutalist building and look at a photo of it from when it was first built in the '50s or '60s, it looks so futuristic.

Chris Williamson 1:05:32 Right.

Sheehan Quirke 1:05:32 And I can imagine people sur-... like, imagine you're surrounded by all these like, you know, delicate Victorian buildings where all the, the, the plaster is peeling, the iron is rusty, and then you see this like concrete spaceship.

Chris Williamson 1:05:42 Imposing.

Sheehan Quirke 1:05:43 It's like this is gonna be a better, fairer, more prosperous world.

Chris Williamson 1:05:47 Only in comparison with a much more delicate-

Sheehan Quirke 1:05:51 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:05:52 ... um, refined-

Sheehan Quirke 1:05:55 Yes.

Chris Williamson 1:05:56 ... glass, steel, chrome building-

Sheehan Quirke 1:05:59 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:06:00 ... does this begin to actually look kind of raw, and primal, and threatening.

Sheehan Quirke 1:06:08 Mm-hmm. Yeah, th- threatening is a good word. It br- can be pretty threatening. And the problem now, which, yeah, is that the world has been filled with so much boring design, plain squares and cubes, that brutalism has lost its charm, because it worked by virtue of its contrast with that older environment. Now we have these brutalist buildings surrounded by just fricking glass boxes.

Chris Williamson 1:06:28 Mm-hmm.

Sheehan Quirke 1:06:29 Doesn't look that interesting.

Chris Williamson 1:06:30 Mm-hmm.

Sheehan Quirke 1:06:30 Right?

Chris Williamson 1:06:31 You mentioned earlier on, uh, you're a hopeful romantic.

Sheehan Quirke 1:06:35 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:06:36 I think I'd put myself in the same category actually. Um, wh- how do you come to think about romance in the modern world? We've spoken about beauty, something that I think people ... wistful for, struggling to find-

Sheehan Quirke 1:06:50 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:06:51 ... perhaps interestingness, and where is it? This sort of increasing sterilization, as they feel, of-

Sheehan Quirke 1:06:57 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:06:58 ... the environments that they have to spend time in, whether inside or outside. How do you come to conceive of romance in the modern world?

Sheehan Quirke 1:07:07 So, you mentioned, um, yeah, sterilization. A really, really good word. I think romance, romance is the least convenient thing. Oop.

Chris Williamson 1:07:19 You say the word romance twice, and things start falling out of the wall. That's the way it works.

Sheehan Quirke 1:07:24 That's how it should be.

Chris Williamson 1:07:24 Yeah.

Sheehan Quirke 1:07:25 That's how it should be. We live, as I said... I think we're okay.

Chris Williamson 1:07:30 Yeah.

Sheehan Quirke 1:07:30 If someone agrees. We, we, we live in a world of convenience and of hyper-commercialized optimization.

Chris Williamson 1:07:38 Hmm.

Sheehan Quirke 1:07:39 And in this world, um, in amongst it, romance screams out as the opposite. Like, I've... I said it to a friend of mine. I think I said it to David, actually. I said, uh... We were talking. We were talking about dating, and, um, and how he's getting on. And I said, "Look, man. It's not love if it's convenient." Like, love is anything apart from convenient. Like, when you're in love, and when you're taken by these passions, right? You s- y- y- you stop doing things you should be doing. You think, "Well, I've got to work today, but I, I just, I just wanna be with this person."

Chris Williamson 1:08:09 Mm-hmm.

Sheehan Quirke 1:08:09 You stay up all night. You know, you arrive at work, you're tired, you're sleepless. That is not, um, convenient. And it's not beneficial to a world where your focus would be on, on, on, on, on, on kind of optimizing according to those material conditions. And yet, it's worth it, you know? And, and I, I think that's how I think of romance and why we're struggling to find it, because it runs contrary to all the instincts that are being, um, taught to us by the wor-... Like, I don't think you can schedule romance, you know? And I think online dating culture, it, it, it has transformed the way maybe we think about love into something that, that, that fits into a broader scheme of, of a scheduled and organized life. And I think it narrows the scope of possibility for passion to sweep you away, you know? And, and, and that is why I... That, that, that... Yeah. That's how I think of romance. Does that answer the question or not?

Chris Williamson 1:09:13 To a degree, it does. I think the inconvenience makes an awful lot of sense. Uh, you know, to go from your slightly more artistic, whimsical approach to my remote area of expertise of evolutionary psychology and mating dynamics. Humans have two attachment systems.

Sheehan Quirke 1:09:33 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:09:33 We have the passionate and the companionate. And the passionate is, uh, highly irrational. It's the honeymoon phase. It's obsession. A lot of anxiety. Uh, it's very painful.

Sheehan Quirke 1:09:44 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:09:45 And it's also very beautiful. It's the rush. It's the spark. Uh, you're unable to focus on anything. It wouldn't make for a particularly good society. It certainly wouldn't really even make for a particularly good family life. There's a lot of articles online. You can go and find, "This couple kept their honeymoon phase going for 20 years, and here's how you can do it too."

Sheehan Quirke 1:10:05 (laughs) Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:10:05 And there's a bit of me that thinks, "Oh, that sounds nice in some ways, because there's the rush, and there's the novelty, and there's the uncertainty, and oh, isn't it exciting?" I would not want to be the child of parents who at 10- I'm 10 years old or five years old, and they're still in the honeymoon phase. I don't think that you're executive functioning. That's why you stay up late, right?

Sheehan Quirke 1:10:30 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:10:30 You should go to bed.

Sheehan Quirke 1:10:31 You should go to bed, yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:10:31 It's a good idea to go to bed. Um, something I imagine you tell yourself all the time-

Sheehan Quirke 1:10:35 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 1:10:35 ... knowing your sleeping pattern. Um, so... And then you move into companionate love.

Sheehan Quirke 1:10:42 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:10:42 Companionate love is friendship. It's categorized much less by sort of this obsession, but a deeper kind of connection. It's