How Do Psychedelics Treat PTSD? - Dr Martin Polanco & Michael Higgs

1. 0:00 – 4:05

   Intro

   1. MHMichael Higgs0:00

      Yeah, it was terrifying. Yeah, you got a bunch of frogmen going down, Navy SEALs getting in a van to go do drugs they've never even heard of before. We were all terrified. I was never terrified of overseas, right? (laughs) I was never terrified ever in my life, but what we were terrified was ourselves, what the medicine's going to show us.

   2. CWChris Williamson0:17

      Give me the story of how you guys first met.

   3. MPDr. Martin Polanco0:21

      So we met in context of, uh, treatment with psychedelics. So I was running a program, uh, for special operations guys called The Mission Within, and we had been working with veterans since 2015. And, uh, I had treated some of, um, Michael's or Punky's friends, so he was trying to refer, uh, another buddy, uh, and, uh, I don't want to get too much into the details because it concerns just medical information, but I'll let Punky really dive into how far and how deep he wants to go.

   4. MHMichael Higgs0:55

      Yeah, pretty much what Martin said. It was, uh, it was two years ago. I had, um, four years out of my retirement and, uh, was in school and it was finally the, uh, the train of life finally caught up with me. And, uh, I had reached out to Martin to help another friend of mine to get into a program that I had heard about from a bunch of other friends, but didn't really know too much about. And it was a psychedelic program. Uh, and it came around at just the right time for me and just the right time for my friend as well. Uh, then I've been involved with Martin ever since.

   5. CWChris Williamson1:26

      What do you mean when you say that the train of life had come around?

   6. MHMichael Higgs1:33

      Yeah, for me, um, you know, it's a 30 year- 30 years in the SEAL teams, you know, and the- and the normal, I- I say the normal life traumas that we all have that we kind of run away from, like, we're always moving target, uh, until life catches up with us. So, uh, you know, childhood traumas as a kid, um, and then life traumas as a young adult, two divorces, had a- a spouse addicted to opioids, living in that kind of tumultuous world. And a da- uh, a daughter addicted to opioids as well at the time during the- the big opioid epidemic. Uh, and at the same time, the war kicked off. So it was like fighting, I felt like I was kind of fighting on two different fronts at the same time. Uh, then a bunch of losses overseas of friends and then a bunch of moral injury, then a bunch of blast injuries to my noggin. And then masking all that with pain pills and, um, psychotropics and everything else, just trying to keep the wheels turning and keep myself moving forward. And eventually just kind of all caught up with me.

   7. CWChris Williamson2:31

      Were you trying to medicate while you were still in the teams to keep you moving forward while you were working?

   8. MHMichael Higgs2:38

      Yeah, a lot of it was pain management and then a lot of it was just my cog- my cognitive ability was just severely declining over time. Um, I was a breacher in the SEAL teams and a sniper, then just a bunch of blast injuries from training and from combat. Um, I was starting to suffer memory loss, you know, massive migraines. Uh, and then just the frustrations that come with that, you know, trying to mask it and cover it up and kind of move through life. And then on top of all the other daily things that I was struggling with on the home front, and then show up to work with a smile on my face going, "Hey, I'm ready to go." Right? And, uh, like we all do. And, um, yeah. And then I'd gotten out and retired at the end of, uh, 2016. Uh, went off to grad school, was- was going to school up at USC, and then I had a- four more of my friends passed away, uh, in the teams. And then I had another close- two close friends got blown up in Syria. And at that time when that happened, that was just my catalyst for just meltdown.

   9. CWChris Williamson3:38

      I agree. I do think that most people that have got problems, whatever that's going on at home or personally or medically, have to put a smile on and go to work. But the risks of most people's jobs are not quite as dramatic as somebody that's doing overwatch as a sniper or breaching the door so that everybody else goes in. So there is a- a- a total extra level of- of pressure, I suppose, to do that.

2. 4:05 – 11:18

   Dealing with Trauma in the Armed Forces

   1. CWChris Williamson4:05

      How would you categorize the atmosphere generally in the armed forces around difficulties with injuries from the past, with emotional traumas from the past at the moment?

   2. MHMichael Higgs4:22

      Yeah, as- as far as the injuries go, it's interesting, uh, at least in our community, and I remember when I was going to like the naval- the naval hospital and it was full of people trying to get out of work. So they're all hanging around the hospital, right? And then in the spec ops community, you don't go to the doctor because you don't want to lose time at work. You want to work. And if- because if you're absent for work, you may lose that spot, right? It's the same as playing on the sports team, right? Um, so everyone was always masking pain, masking injuries as long as they could. Um, so that just kind of got looked by... Now, if they needed help, they always got it. Uh, and then as far as the mental health aspect of it, there was just always this kind of a fine line. But, you know, we were always told, "Hey, you know, the- the medical professionals are here to help you." But there was always just this fear like, "Hey, how much do I share before I get grounded or taken offline?" So, you know, you answer the questions and the questions are always yes and to a point, and then it's "No, no, no, no, no." And, "Can I get back in the game?" Right? So, but the help was always available to us. Um, hardly anyone really fully took advantage of it, just I think out of fear of just getting sidelined.

   3. CWChris Williamson5:38

      Yeah. So you have some, uh, slightly contradictory incentives here. The guys don't want to have themselves taken out of action because it's their job, it's their duty, they feel competent at it. For a lot of people, it's probably their sense of meaning in life as well. And you've got, I guess, this tension-

   4. MHMichael Higgs5:55

      Right.

   5. CWChris Williamson5:55

      ... between the two. You've got, on one hand, "I, I need to look after my health. I need to make sure that I'm not so far gone that I basically can't do my job anymore." But you're talking about a group of people that have been trained to be able to put up with severe levels of discomfort for extended periods of time. I mean, that, you've selected for a group of people, I imagine, that are going to be able to tamp down their emotions and swallow that discomfort, whether it be physical or emotional, for a pretty good period.

   6. MHMichael Higgs6:24

      Yeah, it was super interesting, too, you know, 'cause, you know, I always laugh (soft music) 　 because everyone's like, "Oh, the SEAL teams, you know, the spec ops, like, you guys are always so close." We don't know shit about each other (laughs) because everyone keeps up the veil. Even as close as you are, there's still a, a degree of separation, uh, between the true you and, you know, and what you're, the face that you're putting out to your friends. Uh, so maybe people know kind of maybe what's going on in your, you know, your marital life, your dating life, and stuff like that. But as far as the, the really deep stuff, no one's gonna share the under- the underbelly, right? They're just not gonna expose that.

   7. CWChris Williamson6:58

      Do you think it's possible for somebody in the SEALs to develop that kind of a relationship or do you think that that would be, uh, so antagonistic to the sort of way that they need to show up, to the, um, atmosphere within the team itself? It- is it, is it possible to be able to be that open and still be effective as a member of the team that's maybe seeing death and destruction every day?

   8. MHMichael Higgs7:23

      Yeah, I, I, maybe-

   9. CWChris Williamson7:25

      (laughs)

   10. MHMichael Higgs7:25

       ... but I think it would have to be really brought on so early in the pipeline, right, so that it's ingrained, it, it's ins- institutionalized, uh, to where that trust factor is really there. Um, you know, no, no one wants to feel that they're holding anybody back. I think that, that's the big thing. And then, you know, no one wants to be looked upon as weak for not being able to handle things. You know, if you can't handle your life at home, can you handle life overseas, right? And all that kind of goes together, so yeah, that's a really good question. I'm not really sure what the answer to that is yet.

   11. CWChris Williamson7:59

       I've spoken to a guy called BT Urella, who is a, a buddy of mine for three and a bit years. He started the Veteran Sports League and, um, he was injured, tried to save one of his legs during an IED attack, uh, and for a very long time was battling backward and forward with that, a couple of suicide attempts. And, um, his- the, the savior that he had out the other side of that was the fact that he actually went for amputation. Now, I didn't realize that if you go for elective amputation, they make you wait, I want to say six months maybe or a year because they want to ensure that this is ... I mean, you can't- there's no Command and Z on this. You can't undo this particular, uh, surgery, so they need to make sure that you're well done in that way. But I- even with him, who wasn't in a- he wasn't a SEAL, he was just a- an infantryman, um, even he was talking about this strange balance between what you need to show forward-facing, the expectation around you. I think the conversation certainly over the last 15 to 20 years seems to have developed a lot more than, you know, go back 100 years, calling it shell shock, go back to Vietnam and people coming home and having very, very low levels of support. Um, the really sort of interesting pervasive thing here is that it's, it's not about the facilities not being there. It's not even n- so much anymore about the cultural norms not being there. It's to do with something that's quite internal to the individuals themselves and the sense of expectation and the desire to show up and perform for the team. I guess one of the problems there is that's even more scalable, right? That's even more deeply seated, you know. How are you going to, how are you going to pull that out of somebody? You can offer all of the treatments and support and, and, and courses that you want, but how do you actually begin to get somebody to, to make that decision to reach out for help? So I mean, when it comes to you, what ... That- there had to be a day upon which you woke up and realized, "Right, I, I have to make a change here, that I cannot continue to go like this." What, what was that point?

   12. MHMichael Higgs10:08

       Yeah, I mean, for me it was way- it was aft- it was actually after I retired because I remember probably the last maybe four or five years of my active duty service, I was struggling. Um, and I was command master of a SEAL team too, you know, and a, and a pretty high level, you know, listed leader, uh, running programs and, and pretty well respected. Like, all right, how do I maintain this reputation? Um, because your reputation in such a small unit is so critical, right? Uh, that's how you get promoted. That's how you get selected, all the other things that kind of go on with that. So, uh, there's a lot of pride in it, and we all know that pride's a, uh, a double-edged sword, right? Um, yeah, but it wasn't till after, and it was really when my friend really started having his breakdown and started bringing up a lot of stuff to me that my emotions and memories and everything just kind of caught up with me, that it was past the point of, of my handling it myself. It's like, "Hey, I need some help now." I mean, I was suicidal at the time when I called him or Martine, um, and I had been there once before too, so I was like, "All right, this- I know where- I know where this is gonna lead very quickly," uh, but it took me a very long time to get there.

3. 11:18 – 18:00

   Martin’s Journey with Psychedelics

   1. MHMichael Higgs11:18

   2. CWChris Williamson11:18

      Martine, what's the beginning of your story of how you start to get yourself involved in this world?

   3. MPDr. Martin Polanco11:26

      So that was back, uh, 1999. I was trying to help a family member. I was in medical school at the time and she was dealing with a cocaine addiction, and we had tried all the Western approaches, you know, what's usually recommended, which is the 12 steps, rehabs, um, you know, threats, kicking out- kicking her out of the house. But nobody- nothing seems to stick with her, like nothing was working. So I had always had an interest in psychedelics, you know, starting, uh, as a teenager, and so I knew that there was something that could potentially help her, and I was aware of ibogaine because I'd watched a documentary. So I, I looked it up online and I took her to see a provider.... and, uh, ibogaine is still pretty obscure, but back then it was even more obscure. There was not a lot of data. There was some research going on at the island of Saint Kitts, and there was one provider that I found that would, you know, help her. So, I took her and it was really remarkable to see the pre and the post. So, she was in denial that cocaine was a problem because she had actually started with an eating disorder, and the cocaine, you know, took away the hunger. So, it was a solution, and oftentimes when people fall into addiction, they're self-medicating either depression or anxiety. So, the drug serves a purpose, and I think that's often missed when people look at addiction. They, they, they just view it as a moral failing or, you know, s- a certain weakness, but it's, there's always something underneath it, which is generally trauma. So, uh, having, you know, that experience of me witnessing her going through this process and the very next day having this deep understanding of her addiction and, and the need to move away from it, was, was striking because there's nothing in Western medicine that with one single treatment can take you and give you that perspective. So, I, you know, stuck in my mind, started my training in eye surgery. I was going to become an ophthalmologist, but I, I could never get that out of my head that there was a treatment that could help addiction. So, I took a year off and started an ibogaine clinic back in 2000 in Mexico City. Um, ran that program for a number of years, uh, until 2015, um, when I met some veterans that were using heroin and then they reported their PTSD was gone. So, I was again intrigued because there's nothing that we have in our arsenal that actually cures PTSD. We have treatments to mitigate it, to numb symptoms, but to address it at a core level where the person no longer meets the diagnostic criteria with a single treatment is pretty unheard of. So, I, you know, started seeing more veterans and it just, uh, took off after I, I treated a few SEALs. They're a very tight-knit community, so they started referring their friends and, um, that just, uh, started growing 2020, 2021, was super busy years and obviously COVID had something to do with it because people are struggling. Uh, and yeah, that takes us to now, which is a program that is, is, is just kept growing over the years.

   4. CWChris Williamson14:25

      You saw an increase in the number of veterans suffering with PTSD during COVID?

   5. MPDr. Martin Polanco14:32

      Uh, I think it was twofold. I think it was, uh, the, the fact that gyms closed, so they, they didn't have that outlet of, of the physical exercise. The social isolation being stuck at home, you know, with, with, with family is, is, is very challenging sometimes. Um, along with greater awareness that psychedelics are a good option for addressing what I consider the core injury in, to that special operations community, which is mild traumatic brain injury. So, it's not even the PTSD. I would say every single operator that has gone through their training has been exposed to multiple blast injuries, and it doesn't mean an IED. It could be shooting a mortar, being close to rockets, uh, opening doors with explosives. Even repetitive gunfire will cause a certain, um, overpressure wave that can rattle the brain in a way where it's not designed to be, you know, shooken, and this can cause inflammation, this can cause hormone dysregulation, and over time, sometimes years, this, this manifests with anger, insomnia, depression, anxiety. So, we, we look at it as a biological injury, not so much merely stress or depression or anxiety. There's something going on physically in the brain of these guys.

   6. CWChris Williamson15:46

      Does that predispose people to whatever's classified as PTSD now? Is that, is, is that laying some sort of biological foundation that, uh, psychological construction can be built on top of?

   7. MPDr. Martin Polanco15:58

      Uh, definitely, and then there's also the childhood stuff. So, a lot of the guys that come through, they, they, they come from, uh, troubled backgrounds or broken homes, and it's, uh, pretty common, I think, that people gravitate towards the military because they, they want more structure. They, they want that kind of external source of discipline. So, there is the complex PTSD, which is childhood trauma and post-traumatic stress, and then obviously the brain injury is laying kind of this fertile field for people to then get further traumatized and, and display even more symptoms. And then the ways of coping with it are also problematic because oftentimes they resort to alcohol, and alcohol is inflammatory, so it makes the brain injury worse. So, it's this kind of cycle of, of, of kind of repeated insults to the brain which can, can lead to, you know, pretty, pretty bad outcomes. Um, the m- a lot of the guys that we're treating are, are suicidal when they come in. Um ...

   8. CWChris Williamson16:58

      I suppose one of the particularly brutal things as well about being an ex-special forces operative that's suicidal is, you're intimately familiar with lethal violence too. And, uh, it, it's, it's not good to be able to be great at killing when the person that you're looking at potentially harming is yourself, and I remember hearing a while ago, I, I think this is true, that women commit suicide more than men, but women actually try to take their life more than men. It's just that men are better with lethal force, so they're more successful at taking their own life.

   9. MPDr. Martin Polanco17:37

      More success- more successful.

   10. CWChris Williamson17:38

       Yeah, uh, which is, I mean, that statistic is, uh, it, it kind of changed a lot of what I thought about, um, how we should be dealing with and, and, and treating suicide. I don't really know what that means. Um, it, it means that more women are getting themselves to the stage where they consider killing themselves. Uh, yeah, very, very, that's just s- such an interesting start. So,

4. 18:00 – 24:57

   Commonalities of Veterans with PTSD

   1. CWChris Williamson18:00

      if we were to, if we were to try and create an avatar of a very, uh, uh, a very common sort of ex-special forces-... soldier patient that comes through the doors of your clinic. What would that person look like? What would their age be? What would they present as? What would the sort of state, texture of their mind be like? What would that, what would that avatar be?

   2. MPDr. Martin Polanco18:26

      So from a demographics standpoint, we're looking at 30 to 40-year-olds. The majority of the guys we're treating are post-9/11 veterans, so they've served in Iraq and Afghanistan. Um, I think the SEAL community has, uh... I don't know if it's self-selected, but it's, it's mostly, um, white men. Um, they're generally, uh, type A, like very, um... Like, they're overachievers, they're elite performers. Um, in terms of, of the issues that they're dealing with, there's this thing called operator syndrome that was characterized by a researcher named Chris Prue. And he, he looked at this complex symptomatology and presentation that they have, and it includes hormone dysregulation, um, you know, family issues, insomnia, anger, sleep issues. We see a lot of sleep apnea as well. Uh, obviously depression, anxiety, post-traumatic stress, traumatic brain injury, uh, chronic pain. And all these things are interrelated, so when somebody has chronic pain, it wakes them up at night. And then if you're not sleeping, then the not sleeping by itself is a type of brain injury. So, getting the sleep under control is one of the most important things. And then obviously, like, the diet that we have in the West is, is not helpful, and a lot of the psychopharmaceuticals that they get prescribed actually make things worse. I, I mean, I've treated guys that were on 13 different medications. So first, we have to get them off of the medications. And that, that by itself is a process, because any time you're tapering off a medication, you're gonna get the opposite effect. So, if you've been on Xanax for a number of years, when you get off it, you'll have even worse anxiety. So, it's, um... It's, it's, it's definitely a process and, uh, I'm sure Punky can add to more of the psychographic of the patients.

   3. MHMichael Higgs20:10

      Yeah, it's, it's been interesting. So, wh- when I went through I was, I was 50, 50... How old am I? I was 52. It was a lot of my peers. I mean, when I walked in the room, uh, you know, we treat six clients a week. And I walk in the room and I know four of 'em, right, that are my peers, right? And they're like, "Oh, you too?" And I go, "Yeah, man, me too." Um, but yeah, the demographic is just pretty much everybody in there. And just like Martin said, you know, we're all high performance. It's a high-performance environment. Um, I was on 12 different medications when I came down, you know, psychotropics, pain meds, antidepressants, anti-anxiety pills, uh, just all sorts of just concoctions, right, to deal with whatever the hell I had going on. And interestingly enough, I'm off every single one of those except for my blood pressure meds, um, to include my sleep meds. I, I go to bed at 9:00, I wake up at 6:00 in the morning. I sleep, and I've got sleep apnea. And I went years and years with zero sleep. Um, but yeah, the demographic, it's, it's 30 to 50. And, and typically because it's the guys, you know, we... Typically, they're post-service veterans that are coming in, so they've already either retired or they separated early, so, you know, you're looking at, you know, probably 60% of guys that are 20 to 30-year veterans, and then the rest, uh, that separated early. It's a big swath.

   4. CWChris Williamson21:33

      Can you explain the experience of going through the doors of that treatment center for the first time, Punky?

   5. MHMichael Higgs21:39

      Yeah, it was terrifying. Um, (laughs) it's funny. I laughed... Yeah, you got a bunch of frog men going down, Navy SEALS, you know, getting in a van to go do drugs they've never even heard of before. We're all terrified. We're like, "Uh, I was never terrified over seas, right? (laughs) I was never terrified ever in my life." Um, um, but what we were terrified of was ourselves, right? What the medicine's gonna show us. So, uh, no, I, I had reached out to Martin for a friend of mine and got in touch with him, and then he hooked me up, uh, for medical screenings. I got screened medically. Um, then I got, uh, lined with a coach for f- my preparation training, which is key to all of this, um-

   6. CWChris Williamson22:17

      What does that, what does that look like? What's-

   7. MHMichael Higgs22:18

      I had zero psychedelic experience.

   8. CWChris Williamson22:19

      What's the, uh, preparation training look like?

   9. MHMichael Higgs22:23

      Yeah, so I had zero experience with any, you know, recreational pharmacology or psychedelics at all, you know, in high school and college. So, what the coach really walked me through, my coach Cynthia, was just like, "Hey, here's what you want. Here's what the medicines can do. Here's what they can't unlock. Here's how you navigate this space when you're in it. Um, here's how to build your... frame your intentions, spice your expectations so you don't set yourself up for failure going into medicine. Um, and here's how you navigate the medicine when you're in it. And then, hey, here's what's gonna come up afterwards," or, "Here's what can come up afterwards, and here's how we work through this." Um, that was key. Um, and then I got screened medically, went down, I got my, my heart checked out, did some labs and stuff, made sure I was... And then I had to taper off all those crazy (laughs) meds that I was already on, uh, and then went down. Uh, we had... The way we run the retreat and the same, same as what I went through, we have, uh, six clients per weekend. Uh, so went down, met up with our therapist and our coach. There's a therapist down there, trauma therapist. Uh, there's veteran coaches that are down there, uh, typically from the spec ops community, so they're peers, you know, helping the guys through. Uh, then there's a cook down there that's also been working in the space forever. Uh, then there's the organic medical staff, uh, for the clinic itself. So, we got down to the house. Uh, we did a bunch of preparation work when we got there. Again, kind of everyone sharing their story, "Hey, who's who in the zoo here? How'd we get here?" And it was interesting 'cause we're going around this circle of telling stories and here's, here's guys that I know and that knew me, and this is the first time any of us have ever heard the other guy's story. Like, "Oh, wow, I didn't know that about you." Um, like, "I'm sorry." (laughs) "I didn't know that about you." Um, yeah, then later that night, we got, uh...... EKG is done and some more lab work done. And then we did a little fire ceremony and kind of walked through our intentions. We burned, and we wrote down our intentions for us to receive from the medicine and then what we wanted to get out of our lives, which for me was, I thought ... The story is almost the shame, right? Shame, anger, guilt, pain, anguish, all that stuff. Hate. Um, and then we burned that in a small fire ceremony, and then we took the medicine. Uh, the medicine we took is, uh, Avogad from the above root. In this case it's in pill form. It's an isolate. Uh, so we took that and then went upstairs and laid there, it seemed like for two days (laughs) because it was only like an hour, waiting for the medicine to kick in. And, uh-

   10. CWChris Williamson24:56

       Talk

5. 24:57 – 33:42

   Taking Psychedelics for the First Time

   1. CWChris Williamson24:57

      to me about-

   2. MHMichael Higgs24:58

      ... and then it kicked in. My-

   3. CWChris Williamson24:59

      You're someone that hasn't played around with psychedelics beforehand. You are at a particular point in your life where things have got pretty intense. You've needed to reach out for help. You've had this built up. Now obviously, the preparation and the counseling will have tried to calm you down but you're not going to be able to get away from the fact that I've just taken something. It's inside of me. There's no going back. What's that one hour before everything kicks in, what does that feel like?

   4. MHMichael Higgs25:30

      I think the hour was shorter than the fact of the time that I had the pill in my hand staring at it, right?

   5. CWChris Williamson25:36

      (laughs)

   6. MHMichael Higgs25:36

      Like, "Am I gonna take this?" It's just a red pill or a blue pill, right? And I was just like, "Fuck it, what have I got to lose?" You know, three, two weeks ago I was, I had a gun to my head, so screw this. So, took the pill. And then just laid there waiting, and obviously the anticipation and they, even the weeks going into it, you know, stuff starts to come up. The medicine works before you've ever even been in the medicine and just starts unearthing things, so it was really kind of beautiful. Um, my medicine journey played out very interestingly for me. So in the SEAL teams I did a lot of targeting, um, and just hunting people down, and we used a program in the, in the SEAL teams called Palantir. It's a link diagram program, it's all, like, cause and effect and stuff. So to get to X, I made you go here but I need to find this person first, and this person, and this person. And it actually did that with me (laughs) all the way through my life. So it, it would bring up people and flash them in front of my face, so it was like, "Oh, that's my mother," or, "That's my father," or, "That's this person." But it would, it would keep going until I recognized them at a certain age, and then it took me back into their life and it sh- played out their life, and then it brought it back to our intersect, and then it played that forward. So I got to see, you know, kind of where my abuses happened as a kid, but also how it played out for my parents and other stuff, and then other people that came into my life. Um, same thing for overseas. I had a bunch of situations that happened and it just kind of kept playing it for me. It's like, plays for you a million different ways, it's all gonna turn out the same. Um, so by the end of that journey, I kind of came out and I was just like, with just complete understanding and reconciliation. So I got to basically relive my entire life over again without the emotion attached to it. Um, and it was powerful. I remember I just woke up and I cried. I was, like I had a million people to apologize to and a million people to forgive, and, uh, the fact that I wanted to forgive people was huge 'cause that was a huge anchor, right? Um, and then, you know, I came out of the medicine fairly early in the morning. Other guys came out a little bit later in the day. Uh, a lot of people-

   7. CWChris Williamson27:43

      How long is the duration of the trip?

   8. MHMichael Higgs27:46

      It's a good, uh, about 10 to 12 hours, yeah. And then you're out typically by r- roughly noon the next day. So there's a real peak, there's a peak period of time where you're really deep in the medicine, then it slowly starts to wane off. Uh, it is a stimulant, so you're not really sleeping 'cause your brain is just remapping itself and it's working all night. Uh, and when I came out too, like, my, I felt like someone had put a vacuum cleaner into my brain, like it was still. It was finally quiet. And I've always had monkey mind and chatter, you know, that noise that's always in there, and it was just completely quiet, which was s- very eerie and scary at the, at, at the same time, and peaceful (laughs) at the same time. It was nice to have. Um, and then, uh, the other guys kind of came out a little bit later in the day. Um, some people had rough, ugly journeys. Mine was rough but it wasn't painful for me, to say it was just very teaching. Very... Some people had very joyous journeys. Some people had very lost in space (laughs) journeys. So everyone's journey is extremely different. It's interesting too. Uh, same medicines, you know, and, and actually some of the same traumas going into it, but the journeys play out entirely differently for everybody. Um, and then that night, uh, we did some more integration work. Pretty smoked that day. Avogad's really taxing on the body. Uh, it's extremely draining. Uh, and then we did prep work for Sunday. Uh, for Sunday morning we did 5-MeO-DMT, which is from the Storm Desert Toad. Uh, some people call it the God molecule, the spirit molecule. Uh, super powerful medicine. I always laugh, like, who figured these things out, right? A bunch of kids go in the, in the desert, they found a c- toad, they cooked it over fire, and they talked to God. (laughs) I mean, how does this thing play out? Uh, but it's a beautiful, beautiful medicine, and if you look back at the history too, the, the toad and the mushrooms, like, in all these artifacts all over the world. Um, so that medicine, the way I like to explain it is, you know, where the Avogad really dove into a lot of cerebral memory and just unearthed stuff, the 5 is a very powerful emotional medicine. Uh, and it goes in and it just unearths all these, I like to just say, suppressed emotions, and you're talking a lifetime of suppressed emotions. Um, happiness, pain, sadness, guilt, anger, shame, all that stuff has a voice to it, uh, and it causes damage.... and if you let it, then it'll get there and it comes out and, uh, to someone outside the room, it could sound like it was helter skelter going in there and murder, death, kill, or Chuck E. Cheese birthday party, or complete joy, or the Super Bowl depending upon what's going on. Uh, to the guy or girl who's there, we're just laying there just expelling all this energy and it's emotion that needs to come out. And on, on the other side of that is ego dissolution, just complete c- connectivity right back to yourself again. Um, I fought my medicine. It was too much love for me. Like, I just received this blood dose of love and I didn't want it. I couldn't handle it and I fought it. Um, and then I tried to get back into it and I couldn't get back in. And then I thought I'd failed 'cause I couldn't do it. And, uh, but I remember I was talking to my coach, Cynthia, at the time and she was like, "No, you felt it, you saw it." "Yeah, I did." So she goes, "Well, you can get there again." So after I left after that weekend for me it was like, "All right. I know what's on the oth- other side of this curtain." Um, and I'm just gonna continue to do my work and get there. So it was about three or four months later that I finally broke all the way through with, um, with a different medicine, um, with the intent of just allowing myself to surrender, give in. But I'd already... The heavy lifting I had already done. The big boulder had already been moved right from out of the, out of the way when I was down in Mexico. Um, other guys and girls, the other guys with me had just these beautiful spiritual journeys. Um, and then some, again, were dark. You know, everyone's journey's just completely unique. Some people have beautiful Avagade journeys and, and horrible 5-MeO journeys, and sometimes it's flipped over, you know, the other way around. But eventually, in the weeks after, it just kind of all starts to play out and you start to get these downloads and everything just kind of falls right back in line. So it all doesn't happen right in the medicine; it's what happens after that. Um, and if I had not had my coach, Cynthia, you know, work with me at the time, I could have easily just kind of gone into self-destructive mode of like, "Hey, I fucked this up. I failed this. I didn't do it right. I wasted these people's time and all that," and it wasn't the case at all. Uh, so that was a huge win for me. Yeah, just a, a beautiful, a beautiful medicine pairing, and just the container that the mission went in and set down, it was just so powerful. Like, you had got a bunch of guys who come in and were a bunch of alpha males but were entirely just extremely scared at the time. Um, but they set the right container, it just, it was, it just helped us navigate through that space.

   9. CWChris Williamson33:01

      What was the medication that you used the, uh, after four months, what was the different thing that you used that time?

   10. MHMichael Higgs33:10

       After that I, uh, (laughs) ended up going out to a reservation out here in San Diego, and I'd done a, uh, very heavy psilocybin dose with the Indians out here. Um, a heavy psilocybin dose. And, uh-

   11. CWChris Williamson33:23

       Do you know how much, do you know how much it was?

   12. MHMichael Higgs33:24

       ... and got, and gotten through there. Uh, 20 grams. (laughs)

   13. CWChris Williamson33:29

       (laughs) Sorry?

   14. MHMichael Higgs33:33

       20, 20 grams. (laughs)

   15. CWChris Williamson33:34

       (laughs) Oh, my God. Okay.

6. 33:42 – 43:55

   How the Brain Restructures PTSD

   1. CWChris Williamson33:42

      What... Martin, can you try and explain what's going on in the brain that's causing this particular restructuring? Why that combination of Iboga and 5-MeO and, and how is it that... 'Cause there's obviously something functional that happens, or something physical that happens, but then there's also something psychological, something emotional, maybe even something spiritual. How does all of this work together?

   2. MPDr. Martin Polanco34:11

      Yeah, no, you hit it right on the, the nail on the head, which is it's a, there's a physiolog- physiological changes. There is psychological changes, and there's also a spiritual effect of these compounds. Uh, from a physiological standpoint, Ibogaine is, is, is not considered a clean drug in that it doesn't affect one single receptor. So Ibogaine affects about 50 different neuroreceptors. So it's working on many levels, on, you know, the dopamin- dopaminergic system, on serotonin, on the opioid receptors. Um, it's, uh, increasing communication between both hemispheres. It's, uh, helping stimulate neurogenesis, so it, it, it elevates levels of BDNF and GDNF, which is brain-derived neurotrophic factor and glial-derived neurotrophic factor. So there's, there's new brain cells being grown. Um, and then from a psychological standpoint, the Ibogaine is a shadow work, so it allows a person to deal with unprocessed trauma, like unfinished business, uh, things that they've been avoiding, childhood stuff that they might have repressed. Uh, a lot of the trauma that we have is pre-verbal, so it happens before the age of five, and because the language centers in the brain are not developed, it doesn't get encoded in language. So there's no way to access, access it just through psychotherapy because you're trying to use a semantic framing to, to access things that are, like, visionary almost, like, they're just, um, energetic patterns that are encoded. So with an Ibogaine journey, because you're gaining this perspective and seeing yourself as a child and you're floating in the room sort of like this observer standpoint from Buddhism where you're just, uh, objectively observing without the emotional pain of the memory so you don't get re-traumatized, but you're now an adult so you're seeing it through the eyes of an adult and you're able to then re-contextualize what happened to that child and understand it better from a different perspective. Many times, you know, we blame our parents for things they did or they didn't do, but we don't realize, like, what they were dealing with at the time or the trauma that they had. So being able to see it in that kind of broader swath of, like, their history as well leads to a lot of forgiveness and understanding. Um, but it's not easy because you're, you're, you're confronted with opportunities you've missed, people you've hurt, um, and just, you know, ways that we've shown up in relationship with other people that were not kind of in our-... in alignment with our highest self. Sometimes you're even shown how you were perceived by that person through their own eyes. It's almost like you're in the back of their head seeing yourself, like how you, how you reacted to things they did. Um, so a lot of people, you know, they want to go home and fix relationships right away but we tell them to, like, just take some time because it, uh, the person might not be able to res- th- the person you hurt might not be able to receive that information, so a lot of shadow work with the ibogaine. And then the 5-MeO is, uh, very different because it's, it's more of the mystical experience. So it's that sense of oneness, of unity, of connection. People report being in the presence of God, feeling like they've gone to heaven almost and recognizing themselves as divine beings. So, going from, you know, the shadow work and, and, and kind of these difficult experiences to then, uh, the 5-MeO is, is a very healing process because some of the stuff that the ibogaine shows you, it's just hard to integrate, uh, because it might not even be your stuff. It could be just the pain of the planet, you know, factory farms or war or things that are happening that are, that we might not be aware of but i- i- it shows you that. And then the 5-MeO just blows it all away. It shows you that everything is as it should be and, you know, that everything is perfect a- and, and, and in your control. From a physiological standpoint, the 5-MeO reduces inflammation, and when you have a brain injury that is related to blast exposure, when you have a mild traumatic brain injury and you are able to reduce inflammation, the brain can heal itself. So, the neurogenesis from the ibogaine and the reduced inflammation from the 5-MeO go perfectly hand in hand, so there's a synergistic effect. They're also working on different neurotransmitter systems. Um, and like Punky was saying, the, the experience itself might be 30% of the healing, but the integration of the experience is 70%. It's what you do with it. It's the meditation, the yoga, the ice baths, um, you know, regular coaching sessions, you know, relying on, on your therapist and, and really taking advantage of the resources that, that are available. And this is a lifelong process. It's not, you know, one month, three months. It's, it's for the rest of your life, you really have to work on yourself to maintain these benefits. Um, if you don't, then the experience can fade after two or three months.

   3. CWChris Williamson38:54

      Punky, did you do your ibogaine, your 5-MeO, and then your psilocybin and was that, pharmacologically, was that the lion's share of the work that needed to be done?

   4. MHMichael Higgs39:09

      No. You, you know, I like to say it's peeling the onion, right? I didn't get here in one day, um, and I'm not gonna get out of this in one day either. Um, but what I got from that one weekend in Mexico was enough to really move the needle in a significant way. Um, I got to, it allowed me to get to the X which therapy was never getting me to. Um, but even though I got to the X, there's still more stuff that kept coming up. I was like, "Whoa, there's more, there's more, there's more." So, you know, subsequent, uh, medicine journeys for me have been able to help me deal, work through that. Uh, so typically, I do all my work and if, and then if I get to a sticking point that I can't get any further, uh, with all the right things I'm doing and with my coach or with my therapist and, and sometimes I'll lean into medicine. Sometimes it shows me more, you know, I get more, more downloads or I get more insight. Sometimes there's nothing to see. Sometimes I just need to offload some, some energy or just some built up, you know, stuff that just needs to go away. Um, but I don't, I don't do much medicine. I haven't touched, uh, psychedelics, it's almost been a year now. Um, so that first year was pretty heavy for me in just kind of peeling back that onion as fast as I could. Um, and then too, they all, they kind of kept falling in front of me, like, right at the right time, like, I would just bump into someone that knew somebody and I would go, uh, experience another, uh, another modality, uh, 'cause all these medicines have just such, such a different energy to them. Uh, but it was the right medicine for me at the right time and, uh, yeah, they're just entirely different. Um, I, I think I had zero practice going in when I, when I, when I met Martin. I couldn't meditate, I had zero mindfulness practice. I had, I had no any good practice whatsoever other than throwing weights around, that was it (laughs) , right? So, uh, my self-care, my self-understanding was, to a point, is almost zero. Um, it's entirely different now, you know, just the way that I move through life.

   5. CWChris Williamson41:12

      What is the reason for working with, uh, uh, Martin, do you work with anything else other than ibogaine and 5-MeO or is that, are those the two that you work with mostly?

   6. MPDr. Martin Polanco41:23

      So, uh, we've been working mostly with ibogaine and 5-MeO and we've done a few retreats with psilocybins, so with mushrooms. Um, and these have mainly been for the spouses of veterans, uh, that are, also experience trauma, just by, you know, being in that community and also living, living with, with them and going through the, the process of grieving and loss because they've, they've had so much death. Um, so yeah, we, we have retreats for psilocybin and for ibogaine.

   7. CWChris Williamson41:51

      What's the reason for not using, uh, peyote or for not using a non-5-MeO?

   8. MPDr. Martin Polanco42:01

      Yeah, so the, um, there's, uh, obviously benefits to, say, a peyote journey or an ayahuasca journey. I think with, with ayahuasca, uh, you, you're, you have to be trained in that lineage and I don't feel qualified to administer that. We are partnered with a nonprofit called Heroic Hearts Project that runs ayahuasca retreats, so we generally just refer people to them if they wanna do work with, with a- with ayahuasca. Peyote's a little bit challenging because of sustainability issues, so it's hard to, to promote, um, a compound which is sacred to Native Americans and which is running out because it takes so many years to mature.... so mostly when people want to try mescaline, I would direct them to San Pedro, which has very similar effects and is which... a lot more common.

   9. CWChris Williamson42:45

      What about ketamine? What about MDMA? I've seen a lot of talk about-

   10. MPDr. Martin Polanco42:50

       Mm-hmm.

   11. CWChris Williamson42:50

       ... that as treatment for PTSD as well.

   12. MPDr. Martin Polanco42:52

       Yeah, ketamine is wonderful as a kind of a short-term staunch the bleeding type of intervention when somebody's suicidal. We can refer them to a ketamine pro- provider in the US because it's the one psychedelic that's already legal, so you can find it everywhere in the US. For MDMA, it's a bit problematic because it's not legal in Mexico. So, ibogaine and 5-MeO are legal. They were never scheduled, so they're, uh, basically not recognized by Mexican law as being compounds of abuse. Um, but with psilocybin it falls into more of a gray area where it can be used ceremoniously if used by indigenous people in indigenous contexts. Um, other countries like Jamaica, they're, they're very open about psilocybin, so we are, uh, setting up a, a retreat center there which is going to be mainly for military families, so spouses and adult children, but also for female veterans that are dealing with sexual trauma, uh, which we have to separate the men from the women because the... oftentimes the perpetrators were other, uh, people in the military,

7. 43:55 – 48:30

   Current Accessibility of Psychedelics

   1. MPDr. Martin Polanco43:55

      so...

   2. CWChris Williamson43:57

      What is the current legality around this in America at the moment? If you're somebody that's been in the US Special Forces, you, you simply can't get this legally in America, I'm guessing.

   3. MPDr. Martin Polanco44:11

      Uh, only ketamine can be, can be done legally. Uh, what, what Punky was referring to of Native American reservations, there is a dispensation there that is... that there's tribal sovereignty, so there's a Native American church. There's also some ayahuasca, um, churches that have re- exemptions. Um, but mostly the work has to happen under kind of FDA approved, uh, trials. And there, there are a few, there's something called expanded access where they're already, uh, they've proven to the FDA that these compounds are effective, specifically MDMA and psilocybin, so now that there's a possibility to start offering it more widely, but it's still very limited and small. Most sites only get five slots. So it- it's, it's difficult. Um, so most people are traveling. They're going to different locales overseas where these things are legal.

   4. CWChris Williamson45:07

      What is the potential usefulness of this for people who don't have super strong PTSD? It sounds like a lot of people may have had trauma that has been ingrained before they can even remember it, certainly before they can semantically put it into words. So, j- i- is there a case to be made that far more people than just veterans perhaps might need this?

   5. MPDr. Martin Polanco45:34

      Um, I would say they don't need it, but it, it... they, they would definitely... most people have trauma that they haven't processed. There's just things that they, they're... they might not be aware of. Uh, there is some evidence that, uh, microdosing can help with creativity and just be a better option for people than Adderall. Um, so it, it does have some elements of, of increasing human performance and m- making people more empathetic, more connected to themselves, more aware, better in relationships, um, just nicer humans.

   6. CWChris Williamson46:10

      It makes me think how many people... at the moment we've got a, a pandemic of anxiety, of people being very, very concerned about their mental health at the moment. And you can lay this at the feet of social media if you want, but there's a lot of other things I think that are contributing to this. Increases in single parent households, uh, higher levels of uncertainty about life paths for the future, lack of connection to religion, lack of connection to your local community. You know, the list is, is pretty endless of the grand narratives that have collapsed so that people now feel a little bit atomized. Um, I'm just wondering how much of that, you know, h- how much a therapeutic session of something like ibo- ibogaine could perhaps help them?

   7. MPDr. Martin Polanco46:55

      Yeah. Probably, I mean, I would recommend, like if somebody's going to try psychedelics, I would actually start with breath work or with flotation therapy and then move on to psychedelics. And then of the psychedelics, uh, ibogaine is, is, you know, like the big gun, is the Mount Everest of experiences. So there's some psychological challenges that it can bring up, but also there's some physical risks. It can, it can affect your heart rate, it can cause arrhythmias in combination with other drugs. So it's definitely delicate. Um, ayahuasca and 5-MeO can be hard to integrate. So when people ask me like where they should start once they want to do a psychedelic journey, ketamine is probably the easiest entry point, uh, because it's short. Uh, you know, it can be manageable. You can titrate the dose really carefully. Uh, and then mushrooms would be the next one. So I do think that for the wider population that is dealing with this, kind of this sense of disconnection and, and, and there's a lot of, you know, causes to it. I think we're, we're disconnected from each other, we're disconnected from nature. Very few people find meaning in their jobs. Uh, so having community, uh, especially if it's like guided through an... a trained facilitator and there is a psychedelic type practice could be transformative for us as a society.

   8. CWChris Williamson48:12

      Well, in an ideal world, we would be able to fix the cause of the problem rather than finding a solution to it on the other side, right? At the moment, we are retrospectively going back and then trying, "Okay, something went wrong. Let's, let's go and fix it." It would be much better for nothing to have gone wrong in the first

8. 48:30 – 52:33

   Side Effects of Psychedelics

   1. CWChris Williamson48:30

      place. You mentioned there about the fact that, uh, ibogaine particularly can be quite challenging. Are there any, um, issues of dissociation, of psychosis, of people having onsets of schizophrenia or-... any issues like that that come about due to people taking the medicine?

   2. MPDr. Martin Polanco48:50

      We haven't run into that, but we screen people carefully. There's definitely people that shouldn't take psychedelics. So when somebody is manic, it can make them more manic, so that's one contraindication. Um, if the people are not in touch with reality, if they're schizophrenic, if they're hearing voices, it's also not a good time to be taking psychedelics, uh, as well as some drugs that are, um, contraindicated. So, we haven't had issues with ibogaine. Uh, I've seen some people that have trouble integrating 5-MeO when used on its own, and that's why it's so important to have, uh, a coach or a therapist that is well-versed in the medicine that is checking in with you afterwards. Because sometimes it's as simple as getting grounded, like eating food, taking a warm shower, or getting a massage. But when you're not aware of this and you're having these, like, reactivations, these flashbacks of the 5-MeO journey, people, like, they don't sleep, they don't eat, and then that by itself makes them spin out. So, it- it- it- it's definitely, uh, something that's, that's happening in the community. I've also seen it with ayahuasca where people come back and they're just not the same for months afterwards.

   3. CWChris Williamson49:57

      What's next for you then, Punky, in terms of your personal journey of recovery, of moving forward? I mean, how, just how much have you managed to undo with the therapeutic and medicinal solutions that you've looked at?

   4. MHMichael Higgs50:17

      That's a good question. You know, so I, I probably took a year of really just diving in and I just kept moving the needle, right? And, um, you know, I, I finally, I remember how I hit one medicine journey where there was no more trauma. It was just done. It was just me finally meeting my young self, and I got to walk my young self back through, you know, the happy stages of my life vice the dark stages. Uh, and that was an interesting journey and I would just walk up and I was like, "Okay, we're done. We're moving forward now." Uh, but it's really, it's like, it's controlling the things that you can control, right? And focusing on those things that you can control. So, can I control my sleep? Yeah. Can I control my thought patterns? Yes. Can, can I control what, what goes into my mind or what goes into my ears or what goes into my, uh, my mouth? Yeah, I can. So I'm focused on that and just being very mindful. Um, stuff comes up still, but now I'm ahead of it. Like, I recognize it and I ju- I, I'm able to sit with it now vice reacting to it, um, and then I can just really kind of dive into it. So, it's been an interesting journey on this side of the equation vice where I was before. Um, and now I have this huge community of, of guys and girls who are all on this side, I, I like to say on this side of medicine, uh, that I can talk to, you know? That are my peers, you know, my wife, my friends, you know, my coach. I'm a coach now as well. Um, and it's just been, my relationships are entirely different. Uh, they're very more, much more intimate and more open and authentic with all my friends. So, there's no more veil like, "This is what you get. This is me." There's no (laughs) there's no hiding anything. Uh, so I don't ha- I'm not, I'm, I don't feel I'm ever at risk to ever go down that path again. Um, will I, you know, dive into the medicines more? If something comes up I feel I need to or I'm curious about it, yeah, but I don't lean on it. It's not a crutch for me. It's not something I chase. I'm not a, uh, I'm not a psychonaut. Um, for me it was, it was healing. It wasn't about expanded consciousness. Uh, so I got that part out of the way and I'm just trying to live my best life right now while I can and just give back to others.

   5. CWChris Williamson52:32

      What

9. 52:33 – 57:20

   Advice to Suffering Veterans

   1. CWChris Williamson52:33

      is, oh, if there's some people that are in the special forces or perhaps are looking to come out pretty soon and are thinking, "That sounds an awful lot like the situation that I am in," the situation that you were in is now what they're feeling, what would you want to say to them?

   2. MHMichael Higgs52:55

      Reach out. (laughs) Yeah, that's the funny thing. Um, every client we have down there, and myself included, were never self-referred. Someone else brought them or referred them, right? So, someone else threw a life ring out for that person. So, we're not self-arresting. No, we're not asking for help. Um, and that's out of pride, that's out of fear, it's out of shame, it's out of all sorts of things. So, really, it's just knowing that you have a community of brothers and sisters that will help you if you reach out. Uh, it's the same in any aspect of life. If you ask for help, somebody will help you. Uh, you just have to ask. Um, and we've got a, a beautiful community, uh, that's been in this space for a long time. Uh, you know, it was underground for a long time. Everyone's slowly coming to the surface now 'cause we're not helping anybody by staying underground. We're just not doing it. Um, but the momentum's already moving forward. So, uh, I think the narrative's changing so it's safe to be in this space now. You know, and some, maybe in some work environments it may not be, but it's getting more and more ac- accepted. Um, and it's safer than what we've been doing, which is taking this, these, these pharmacolo- you know, this, these medicines that we're taking, they're actually compounding the issues that we already had. Um, but the big one's just ask for help, reach out. Um, come to us, come to someone. We're not ever telling anybody to come to us. We're not the only retreat out there. Um, we're one of the few that specializes in treating veterans, uh, and we're run by veterans. Uh, but just, yeah, ask for help.

   3. CWChris Williamson54:37

      What was your process of starting to become a facilitator or, uh, uh, an assistant with the organization?

   4. MHMichael Higgs54:47

      Yeah. Martin, he, uh, reached out and he goes, "Hey, we've got a big group coming down here. Um, do you want me to help out? You wanna..." I go, "Yeah, I'll drive the truck, you know, I'll wash the dishes, I'll clean the towels and walk guys to the bathroom." And it started just like that, just holding space for guys. And then, I think when you and I started this conversation, I said, "Yeah, I walked in a room and there was six guys, I know four of them," but it was just more and more and more of that. I was like, "Damn, I know all these guys." (laughs) And so that really kind of shifted, you know, my mission, like, "Hey, these are my people, um, wanting to go down." Um, initially, I, I think I probably jumped in too soon trying to help. I hadn't done a lot of my own work and, you know, you go from a non-feeling, non-caring guy to being completely busted wide open and being an, an empath and taking on everything. It's like, "Uh-oh, I need to back out of this space for a bit." (laughs) And, uh, but no, it was really healing because then I got to s- really learn, um, you know, I think we kind of go through life thinking our trauma is so unique to us that no one's gonna understand it, and then you hear all these guys and girls' story and if there's two of them that are exactly the same, if, if, if not three, and trauma is trauma, right? No matter when it happens or how it happens, it's still trauma. It, it's, it's something that got you in- allowed you to get in your own way and it stopped you from moving, you know, at your full potential. Uh, so I got into that, and then got serious about it, so I took a, um, a psychedelic integration coaching course. Really dove into that, started coaching af- after the sessions, so now I go down, I'm a facilitator, I'm a coach, I manage the operations down there and, uh, it was, I just love the work.

   5. CWChris Williamson56:31

      Where can people go if they want to find out more about what it is that you guys do and, and, and the process of everything?

   6. MHMichael Higgs56:38

      Yeah, so our website is missionwithin.org. Um, and then we're also funded by non-profits, so the SEAL Future Fund or fut- sealfuturefoundation.org, uh, heroicheartsproject.org, um, and thehopeproject.org. Uh, they fund, we're probably 60, I think, 60 if not 70% donor funded for the clients who come down, and then the rest are self-pay.

   7. CWChris Williamson57:06

      Is this available for anybody worldwide or are you only taking people from the US?

   8. MHMichael Higgs57:12

      No, we take everybody. We're, we're very, pretty heavy on veterans, uh, but nationality doesn't, doesn't really matter.

10. 57:20 – 58:56

    Where to Find Michael & Dr Polanco

    1. CWChris Williamson57:21

       Martin, anything to add before we finish up for today?

    2. MPDr. Martin Polanco57:26

       Uh, we're recruiting for a study that we have, uh, going on. So this is our Gold Star Study, uh, this is women that lost men in combat or to mental health issues. Uh, so information is on the website, and they would be, uh, coming to UT at Austin, getting their brain scanned, and then going to retreat. Coming back to the US, getting another brain scan. So we, we wanna see, um, what the effects of psilocybin are on prolonged grief, uh, as well as 5-MeO, and this would be separate groups. So, um, yeah, I just wanted to get the word out on that study because I think it's important to, to also help the, the widows of, of, of men who have served.

    3. CWChris Williamson58:03

       What's the website again for that?

    4. MPDr. Martin Polanco58:05

       Missionwithin.org.

    5. CWChris Williamson58:08

       Gentlemen, I, uh, very much appreciate the stuff that you're doing. I think that it's, uh, long overdue to try and give people that have served their country and put their bodies and their minds on the line to keep everybody else safe and, and free. Uh, the fact that you, you go through all of the sacrifices and then potentially come home to suffer more feels particularly unfair, so I, I really, really applaud the work that you're doing. It's i- incredibly inspiring and long may it continue. What's happening, people? Thank you very much for tuning in. If you enjoyed that episode, then press here for a selection of the best clips from the podcast over the last few weeks. And don't forget to subscribe. Peace.

Episode duration: 58:56