How Humans Raised Children 1000 Years Ago - Dr Paul Turke

1. 0:00 – 5:40

   Evolutionary Parenting

   1. CWChris Williamson0:00

      How might child rearing look different if parents were educated in evolutionary theory?

   2. PTDr Paul Turke0:08

      Well, I think qu- quite a few ways. Um, p- probably the biggest one and one of the big themes in my book is that we used to live embedded in kinship networks. Um, so we had lots of different, uh, helpers, contributors, uh, helping us to raise our children. Th- you, you know, there are situations now where one parent, usually a mother, gets stuck with three kids in a h- in a home. And, um, uh, it's very different from how things used to work, uh, back in the day, and it puts a lot of stress on everybody, i- children, but parents, parents also. Uh, s- so that's a big thing. Um, kids, when they would go out to play and run around, they would, uh, be in sort of mixed age groups, so they would have... Uh, if you were a three-year-old, you'd have a seven-year-old there, uh, to, to learn from, and you might be helping a two-year-old. And, uh, so the, the sort of the independent child stuff would be different. Uh, so those are two of the big ways that, uh, uh, we've, uh, lived in s- we live now sort of in a mits- mismatched environment.

   3. CWChris Williamson1:28

      Mm-hmm. What about... W- what does that say about broken homes or unintact homes increasing, single parents, stepparents, um, what are the implications of that when it comes to child development?

   4. PTDr Paul Turke1:43

      Yeah, I think it puts, uh, s- a lot of stress on, on children. Um, it also... (sighs) You know, the human brain, the child's brain is very malleable, very, uh, very undeveloped when, when baby first appears on the scene, and when we change the environment, uh, the early environment, uh, w- that children are reared under, we sort of miss, I think, some of the cues that lead to, uh, uh, normal development. Now, humans, if anything, we're, you know, we're, we're flexible. We, we can adapt to a lot of different things, so it's not, uh, uh, the end of the world, but if we're, but if we're trying to optimize, you know, we're, we're sort of off the optimum if we're, um, y- under those sorts of stressful situations. And I think it, that has implications for, uh, happiness and, and healthiness and, um, y- you know, just em- emotional, uh, wellbeing, that sort of thing. And, and even things like ADHD potentially, the more spectrum-y things on the autism spectrum. All of that can be affected, I think, by, uh, this mismatch, uh...

   5. CWChris Williamson3:01

      Mm-hmm.

   6. PTDr Paul Turke3:02

      ... environment, stressful broken homes, the stepparents like you say. Um, so, um, I, I don't know if you want to go into it but there w- there was a group of evolutionary psychologists, uh, Martin Daly and, uh, Margo Wilson who did early work on, uh, uh, stepparenting and, um, you know, they found that, uh, uh, stepparents tend to be... I mean s- most stepparents are great, you know. Of course they step in, they help, they're wonderful, but there, uh, statistically there's more likelihood of a, of abuse or neglect coming from the stepparent, You know, it's the old Cinderella thing. Uh, and so, uh, um, you know, the more our en- our environment is altered from what we used to have where there were always three or four people, so if, if grandma was a bad apple, you know, there were other people to step in. Um, but if it's, if it's just a, a broken home and just one, one mom or one dad and, uh, y- you know, that, that can, that can increase the, in the amount of abuse and things like that, that, that go on. Um, so, uh, that was very influential early work in evolutionary psychology, and some people got upset about it where they're saying, "Oh my God does... Because it's natural, does that mean it's okay for stepparents to abuse kids?" And you know, of course that, that doesn't make sense, that's the naturalistic fallacy and, uh...

   7. CWChris Williamson4:30

      Mm-hmm.

   8. PTDr Paul Turke4:31

      Um, n- yeah. No, we, w- it, it, it, it's almost the opposite, it's the idea that, you know, hey if you're gonna be a stepparent, uh, just r- be forewarned that there's some, gonna be emotional challenges for you and, uh, it could be a little bit harder than, you know, and that sort of thing. So we would, we would hope that would remedy the situation, not, not excuse it.

   9. CWChris Williamson4:55

      Yeah, it's a be extra vigilant if you're a stepparent.

   10. PTDr Paul Turke4:58

       Yeah.

   11. CWChris Williamson4:58

       You know this is going to be tough, raising kids is tough.

   12. PTDr Paul Turke5:01

       Yeah.

   13. CWChris Williamson5:01

       And one of the ways that the toughness of raising kids gets ameliorated is by them being your genetic progeny. So you're like, "They're crying again for the seventh night in a row but it's my cry so..." But if it's just the person that you're in love with's progenies cry...

   14. PTDr Paul Turke5:18

       Right.

   15. CWChris Williamson5:18

       ... there's a lot less motivation to be there and you might get more frustrated so on and so forth. And yeah, I think it's a 100X increase in child mortality when there's a one non-biological parent in the household so some of, some of the outcomes... I mean the base rate for that's quite, that's not saying that it's making a massive difference, but it's a sufficiently, uh, significant difference that it's something everyone should be aware of.

   16. PTDr Paul Turke5:39

       Yeah.

   17. CWChris Williamson5:39

       You mentioned there about

2. 5:40 – 13:33

   The Evolutionary Role of Grandparents

   1. CWChris Williamson5:40

      grandparents, uh, what's the evolutionary role of grandparents or what, why does it matter for, uh, raising kids back then and sort of what's the implication for today?

   2. PTDr Paul Turke5:52

      Yeah, well, I mean, I think it's huge. Uh, grandparents... Y- uh, well, uh, first- first of all, when... We, we used to live about as long as the other apes, you know, up to about six million years ago, and the, the, the w- the way we sort of extended our reproductive viability most likely, especially for grandmothers, uh, if, if menopause was ancient as we think it was, it was by caring for children. Uh, so reproducing indirectly, taking care of the kids we've already reproduced and helping them, and one of the big ways we help them is by taking care of, uh, their children. And so there's been this long running history of, uh, uh, gr- grandparents and, and babies and children and grandchildren, uh, interacting and helping one, helping one another, and, uh, I think it's good for, uh, both, both sets. Uh, when I, when I was younger doing field work, I was interested in the, what the grandparents were doing and how they were helping and, and that sort of thing. And, uh, as I got older and became a grandparent, I was... I still was interested in the other stuff, but I became more interested in why we do it 'cause it's hard work, you know? (laughs)

   3. CWChris Williamson7:09

      Mmm.

   4. PTDr Paul Turke7:09

      Come home at the end of the day sometimes after there's been arguing and fighting, but, um, you know, it, it really makes my life, uh, happier and more fulfilled. And I think we sort of have an epidemic of unhappy grandparents, uh, at least in, in the US and I think in other parts of the world too. And, uh, you know, sitting on the beach having your, uh, pina colada or golfing or whatever can, can be fine, but, uh, you get a lot more satisfaction over the long run, I think, if you're useful, if you're helping-

   5. CWChris Williamson7:47

      Mmm.

   6. PTDr Paul Turke7:48

      ... uh, uh, people, um...

   7. CWChris Williamson7:51

      Well, I remember, um, David Buss saying... Oh no, sorry, Steve Stewart-Williams at the start of, uh, The Apes Who Understood the Universe, he's talking about what is it that we are, um, uh, like maximizing machines or optimizing machines, I can't remember what it is that he says, and he comes in to land at we are grandchildren maximizing machines, or we are grandchildren optimizing machines, that it's not enough to just have a child. It's enough to have a child and make sure that your child has a child, and then we're kind of like, "Ah, okay, like, my, my work here is done." Um, but yeah, it's, you know, to kind of put it in context for the modern world, one of the first things that everybody does is fly the nest. You're 18, you're off to university. You're 22, you get your first full-time job. You move away to the big city and you don't really think about your parents in that sort of a way. You're liberated. You're, you're, uh, you know, a renegade doing it on your own. And then even in the modern world, uh, everybody has their own abode, very few people are living in pan-generational cities, let alone pan-generational, like, houses or, or neighborhoods, and then even with all of those incentives, all of the opportunity to travel the world, all of the different places and things that could distract you, how many people when kids come onto the horizon and someone gets pregnant move back to the city where one of the parents are? Right? It is so... Uh, maybe not a- anywhere near as common as it would have been ancestrally, but to think you have all of this pull, all of these dynamics distracting you to go out, and there's still something in the back of your mind that goes, "I think we should be near, uh, Nana and Granddad."

   8. PTDr Paul Turke9:25

      Yeah.

   9. CWChris Williamson9:25

      "I kind of get the sense that we should be back there." So, uh, maybe, I don't know, maybe evolution is still whispering in people's ears a little bit even in 2025.

   10. PTDr Paul Turke9:33

       Yeah, it's a huge draw. I, I, I, I think it is. And, and then when, when they do it, they're, uh, they're, uh, they're very, you know, happy. I mean, it's just sort of a truism if you talk to a grandmother or grandfather and ask them, you, you know, "H- what's it like hanging out? Get- having the opportunity to hang out with your kids?" Uh, it's the best thing, best thing ever, you know? They... And again, y- you know, they're, y- uh, they... The nice thing about being a grandparent is you're not 24/7 either. You can sort of, uh, uh... You can do some of the other things like, you know, golf or hang out on the beach or whatever, but you have more flexibility. But, uh, yeah, it, it... There's this draw. People, people just sort of naturally realize that, that that's, that's the, the way to go. And, and that's why I, I'm concerned about some of our younger generation that, you know, they're, they're good people, uh, a lot of like the young eco-warriors and so on, they... Yeah, I read online them saying things like, "Well, the last thing the world needs is more children." Um, well, you know, that... Uh, you make that decision early and then it's hard to, hard to reverse that, you know, and I think, I think it comes back to bite a lot of them. Um, but I also think kids are important. I think kids are, um, gonna be the problem-solvers. Uh, you know, we have, uh, a lot of problems that the, the world faces, the planet faces and so on, and it's, it's not gonna be, um, your dog. I mean, I lo- I love dogs, don't get me wrong, but it's not gonna be the dog who's gonna figure out new ways f- to, you know, solve global warming problems or whatever. It's, it's gonna be, it's gonna be our children. So, uh, um... And, and the pro- the problem with it, it is is you make that decision in your 30s and 40s and then you're 50 and you might start to say, "Oops," and then it's kind of late, you know? But, um, one, one of the good things is that... Back... Natural selection never had to be more s- s- specific than it needed to be to solve the problem. So because we were embedded in these kinship networks and people, people like sex and when babies came they tended to be pretty, you know, uh, uh,... willing to care for them and, and love them and want to nurture them. That led naturally, uh, to reproductive success. But not, m- very few of us just walked around back in the Pleistocene saying, "I want to have children, I want to have children," 'cause we... Those other two things, you know, led to having children. And so I, I don't think early on as young people, we, we think those things. So it's easy sort of to, you know, be led off track and, and say, uh, "Yeah, I don't want to have kids. Uh, it's not a good thing to have kids for various reasons," and whatever, and then suddenly think, "Uh-oh. It's, it's too late. Maybe I should have (laughs) should have, uh, uh, you know, gone in, gone in the other direction." So, uh, so I worry about some of the younger generation doing that. But-

   11. CWChris Williamson12:51

       Yeah.

   12. PTDr Paul Turke12:52

       Oh, what I was starting to get at though is because natural selection's not all that specific is... You, you can probably make yourself happier and build a fulfilling life even after you've not had your own children and grandchildren just by helping because i- in, w- you know, help, help, we, we feel good about helping. We feel good about being relevant.

   13. CWChris Williamson13:15

       Mm-hmm.

   14. PTDr Paul Turke13:15

       So I would encourage people out there to, uh, even if they don't have children, to, you know, to maybe, uh, do something that's helpful for them and I think they'll feel happier, happier for it. And maybe that's the pediatrician coming out in me but...

   15. CWChris Williamson13:31

       (laughs) Okay, so, uh,

3. 13:33 – 18:22

   Why Menopause Occurs

   1. CWChris Williamson13:33

      one big, uh, mismatch, um, pan-generational, uh, alloparenting, um, and then the sort of inclusion of, of grandparents. Is this... In your opinion, does this explain the grandmother hypothesis, why it is that, uh, humans exist after they're able to continue reproducing, specifically, uh, mothers or grandmothers?

   2. PTDr Paul Turke13:57

      Yeah. Uh, I, I do. I, I think, um... I think there's reason to believe that menopause is pretty ancient that it, that it ex- started to happen right after the split from the other hominoid apes. You know, so basically, selection stayed stronger for longer because we were doing things helpful, uh, increasing our reproductive viability later in life. But selection, for some reason, didn't push, uh, ovulatory function 'til later and later ages. And I think the reason is, is because it was more adaptive to stop at a certain age because children were becoming, eh, you know, more, more helpless, more altricial is, is the word and, uh, their, their, their period of dependency lasted a lot longer. And so, um-

   3. CWChris Williamson14:52

      If you can... If you as a, a woman can have a child at 71...

   4. PTDr Paul Turke14:56

      Yeah.

   5. CWChris Williamson14:56

      ... uh, the, the potential chance... Just to, just to kind of break that down for people who might not be familiar with the grandmother hypothesis, uh, can you give a, a, a basic bitch, uh, explanation of, of what it is, like why that's the case?

   6. PTDr Paul Turke15:08

      Y- yeah, yeah. Yeah. Um, so w- w- women stopped reproducing directly, uh, in, in their 40s because as children were becoming more and more needy, uh, and, uh, the, the chances of them surviving and being successful if you died before they were 10 years old or so, uh, became very, very, very low. And so it became adaptive to stop and nurture the last child that you had maybe when you were 40 years old and then, um, uh, e- so we would, we would live... That, that would keep natural selection stronger, uh, to later ages that, that need to, uh, reproduce indirectly by helping children you already had produced. Uh, that held off the ravages of old age and so the whole thing just kept increasing so that eventually we lived long enough to take care of our children's children.

   7. CWChris Williamson16:10

      Mm-hmm.

   8. PTDr Paul Turke16:10

      And so the grandmother hypothesis sort of explains why we live, uh, 'til later and later ages, but also why we don't directly keep reproducing, uh, during that time.

   9. CWChris Williamson16:24

      I suppose as well limited resources, uh, food, uh, not, not only, uh, care, but, uh, if you are able to contribute, if you're able to be a net positive to the survival of not only your children but your children's children and maybe your friends' children's children and, you know, and you get that, uh, reciprocally in, i- in return, the alloparenting thing.

   10. PTDr Paul Turke16:48

       Yeah. Yeah.

   11. CWChris Williamson16:48

       Uh, but you're not that much of a drain on resources, uh, older, older people don't eat that much, uh, you know, they, they don't... (laughs) I guess they need care kind of a- uh, uh, eventually at some point? But I would imagine that that care wouldn't have been very protracted, the, uh, uh, end of life stuff th- I imagine isn't that sophisticated ancestrally. Um...

   12. PTDr Paul Turke17:08

       Right. Exactly. Yeah, I was listening to one of your podcasts with Peter Attia and he talks about slow death and long death.

   13. CWChris Williamson17:15

       Mm-hmm.

   14. PTDr Paul Turke17:15

       And, uh, you know, the slow death wasn't, wasn't there. You, you were relatively-

   15. CWChris Williamson17:19

       (laughs)

   16. PTDr Paul Turke17:20

       ... fit and then s- and then something got you. So you weren't a burden on everybody, uh, uh-

   17. CWChris Williamson17:24

       Yeah. Yeah.

   18. PTDr Paul Turke17:25

       ... back, back in the day like that. And, and so e- even, even for males, you know, you, you brought up a good point, um, you know, you know, they might not be taking care of the children, rocking them to sleep and doing things like that quite as much as, as grandma did but just, just the male being around, uh, held together, helped to hold together kinship networks-

   19. CWChris Williamson17:49

       Mm-hmm.

   20. PTDr Paul Turke17:49

       ... and helped to transmit knowledge that had been accumulated, you know, like where the, where the watering hole doesn't go dry when we're hunting for such and such and so on. Males, males could be contributors also and if they weren't...... Busy getting beat up by younger males 'cause they were competing for, you know, the, the females. Uh, they, uh, you know, sort of dropping out of that game and being helpful in other ways probably was, uh, uh, adaptive for them too and a, a route to indirect reproduction.

   21. CWChris Williamson18:21

       Okay. So,

4. 18:22 – 24:56

   How Modern Parenting is Encouraging Anxiety

   1. CWChris Williamson18:22

      uh, grandparents, pangenerational raising, alloparenting, stuff like that, uh, mixed age play, uh, younger boys and girls learning from older boys and girls, roughhousing, understanding how status hierarchies work, getting to expedite learning because the older kids know more and they get to teach the younger kids as opposed to everybody kind of moving and discovering at the same age.

   2. PTDr Paul Turke18:43

      Sure.

   3. CWChris Williamson18:43

      Um, what else? Uh, h- how else is modern parenting out of sync with how we were evolved to raise children? What are some of the least aligned child-rearing strategies of the modern world, in your opinion?

   4. PTDr Paul Turke18:55

      Uh, (sighs) well, I think, uh, th- that covers it, uh, uh, of in, in terms of the, sort of the sociology of it.

   5. CWChris Williamson19:04

      Mm-hmm.

   6. PTDr Paul Turke19:04

      But we're, we're out of alignment with, uh... in terms of in- infectious disease exposures and things like that with, you know, with th- our daycare centers and so on, stuff like that. Kids, uh, experience different degrees of, of illness, uh, uh, different types of germs, different, uh, uh, immune system developmental trajectories and so on. Um, and, and, uh, again, kind of I touched on this, uh, uh, a few minutes ago, but just, uh, I think it predisposes sometimes to some of the, you know, not super severe mental illnesses, which I think come more from, you know, genetic and broken brain type, what I call brake- broken brain type phenomena. But just some of th- some alter- some of the altered inputs from not-

   7. CWChris Williamson20:02

      Mm-hmm.

   8. PTDr Paul Turke20:02

      ... carrying our children around all day long and/or having alloparents carry them around and talking to them all day. Tho- so those sort of early inputs are, are quite altered by the, uh, social structure that we know, that we now live in.

   9. CWChris Williamson20:18

      Should we see teenage angst or anxiety or ADHD as adaptations instead of diseases then?

   10. PTDr Paul Turke20:25

       Uh, s- up to, up to a point. Uh, especially anxiety. I mean, we- you can't live w- without anxiety. If I could give kids a pill to make them never feel anxious, then that probably wouldn't be good for them. Uh, I mean, we... You know, if you, if you're walking down a path in the woods and you see mama grizzly bear with her cubs and you don't feel a little bit anxious about taking the next step forward, that's probably not very adaptive.

   11. CWChris Williamson20:54

       Mm.

   12. PTDr Paul Turke20:54

       So, so we need to feel anxiety. But, um, yeah, but we need to learn how to deal with it because there, there are all kinds of anxiety-producing situations that we have now that we didn't used to have, especially for teenagers. You know, they're, you know, they're, they're, they're living in a virtual world a lot of the time, and they're, uh, y- you know, they're thrown into middle schools with, you know, 200 other kids-

   13. CWChris Williamson21:26

       Mm-hmm.

   14. PTDr Paul Turke21:26

       ... their same age without support of, of, uh, kin all day long and, and that, and that sort of thing. And that, that creates anxiety situations that we, we don't need to eliminate per se. We need to learn to deal with them.

   15. CWChris Williamson21:42

       How is modern child-rearing and, uh, the environment that kids are brought up in potentially predisposing the anxiety, the ADHD, the teenage angst in a way that would have not occurred ancestrally? What, what are some of the contributing elements to that?

   16. PTDr Paul Turke22:00

       Yeah. Well, I, I think that it, it is, you know, having y- s- very supportive, uh, kin who, who love you a- all around that can sort of take you aside and say, "All right. Th- that's, that's not that awful of a situation," and explain things to you. But I'm always struck by... And, and it's not always a bad thing. But I'm struck by the wide range of options that our teenagers face now. When I was doing field work on Aipalek, which is not a hunter-gatherer society, it was a horticultural society, but it was pretty primitive, pretty i- pretty isolated in the, in a technological sense. And those kids growing up knew what they were gonna do. Uh, you were gonna be... You were gonna fish, you were gonna build canoes, you were gonna, uh, you know, weave mats to build roofs for the house, and you were gonna take care of kids, and, uh, uh, you know, that, that was about it. Uh, th- there weren't just this huge range of options. And, and again, I, I, I think it's great that we have this huge range of options, you know. You and I wouldn't be able to do what we do if we were living in that situation. But it also presents so much uncertainty to these kids. They just... sometimes just don't know where to go, and then they re- they retreat into a virtual world and, uh, they, they don't know who to... You know, they don't have people around all day that they can talk to about it. They don't have older kids who have been through it necessarily to model after and s- and so on. So it's, it's, it's pretty disruptive. Um, ADHD is I think is a little different from anxiety. Um, I, I, I think what I tell kids... And I, I may not be, uh, completely capturing the whole, uh, uh, spectrum of it. But I tell kids, you know, that, uh, I, I was 5'6" back in the day and I've since, since shrunk. And if the whole world-

   17. CWChris Williamson23:59

       (laughs)

   18. PTDr Paul Turke23:59

       ... were a basketball court, I wouldn't be very well-adapted to it.

   19. CWChris Williamson24:02

       Mm.

   20. PTDr Paul Turke24:03

       And now in school, when, when we send t- kids to school-... we funnel them all through, you know, through the same funnel and so we, we ... Kids who are y- you know, a little bit, uh, shy, quiet, they're not active lear- active learners, they pay, th- they're good at paying attention, that kind of thing, they get overvalued, but the kid who's a more active learner would rather run around outside and learn things that way. They, they're not quite as able to.

   21. CWChris Williamson24:30

       Mm.

   22. PTDr Paul Turke24:31

       Um, but back in the day, um, in the Pleistocene and on, in existing traditional societies, there, there's room for kids to do, uh, you know, if y- if you're an active learner, well, you go out hunting. If you're a less active learner-

   23. CWChris Williamson24:46

       Blow off steam.

   24. PTDr Paul Turke24:47

       ... you, you, you make the arrow heads, you know, there's all kinds of roles for, for kids that they could fill.

   25. CWChris Williamson24:54

       What are your thoughts on daycare?

5. 24:56 – 29:39

   Is Leaving Kids at Daycare Beneficial?

   1. PTDr Paul Turke24:57

      On daycare?

   2. CWChris Williamson24:57

      Yeah.

   3. PTDr Paul Turke24:58

      Um, well, I think well-run daycares can be, uh, good in the sense that they, they can mimic, uh, the alloparental situation where you have multiple committed individuals and, you know, and, and especially if they're like, uh, I think, like, in the Montessori settings, they'll have more of the, like, you know, three-year-olds with four-year-olds with five-year-olds and so on. I think tho- those can have certain advantages, but what I don't like about daycares is that ... Well, first of all, m- many of them are just overcrowded. You've got, you know, the, the, the, the caretakers are o- are overwhelmed and they can't give the kids as much attention as they want, but, uh, it's, it's the, it's the infection (laughs) that y- there. I mean, w- I ... We live, uh, up north here in Michigan where it's cold six months out of the year and the viruses hit and, you know, parents y- y- you know, they have their kids in daycare and, and three days out of five, they've got to keep them home 'cause they have a fever or something and all of that. So there, there's a lot of, uh, uh, infection, uh, risk that you have to deal with that you wouldn't have had to deal with, uh, you know, a- again, during, during ancestral times.

   4. CWChris Williamson26:18

      So it seems to me like one of the big changes is a, a level of attentiveness from, uh, primary caregivers to babies and then children. I- it seems to me like you're suggesting it would be rare that children would be put down on the ground, sort of left-

   5. PTDr Paul Turke26:35

      Right.

   6. CWChris Williamson26:35

      ... l- left all that much. Is, is that an accurate assessment?

   7. PTDr Paul Turke26:38

      Oh, it, it's abs- it's absolutely true. Um, y- y- y- there was just no safe place to put a baby other than in, uh, uh, a caretaker's arms, uh, you know, during, during the Pleistocene and before that. And so-

   8. CWChris Williamson26:53

      Have you ... Have you got any idea, just thinking on that, is there any data around the difference in s- uh, skin-to-skin contact time from ancestral times to the modern world? I think we, know we're probably going to be talking, what, 10% maybe, 20%?

   9. PTDr Paul Turke27:08

      Y- Yeah. I don't know of any data. I- it'd be an excellent study for somebody to do. And, and maybe somebody has. If they have, I, I, I don't know, but I, I think it's way down. Um, and things like, um, you know, plagiocephaly, the flattening of the head, a kid, kid ... When kids are held, you're always switching arm to arm, different positions.

   10. CWChris Williamson27:30

       Mm.

   11. PTDr Paul Turke27:30

       Uh, and same thing when w- you know, with co-sleeping, y- you know, doing it safely. Ki- kids, kids, m- parents, parents would, you know, mom would sort of curl around baby, they'd be in different positions and so on. We can just see now that, like, six, s- I think one out of six kids in the US gets these head flattening conditions called plagiocephaly and it's from not being carried, it's from being flat on your back.

   12. CWChris Williamson27:57

       Oh, wow, it's, it's literally an imprint of the floor that you were laid on for so long-

   13. PTDr Paul Turke28:02

       Exactly.

   14. CWChris Williamson28:02

       ... when, when your cranium was still malleable.

   15. PTDr Paul Turke28:04

       E- exactly. And then-

   16. CWChris Williamson28:06

       That's crazy.

   17. PTDr Paul Turke28:06

       ... the related condition is torticollis where you get this neck tilt and then you got to send them for physical therapy to try to, uh-

   18. CWChris Williamson28:14

       My God.

   19. PTDr Paul Turke28:14

       ... straighten it out. So, so those are, you know, easily seen things, things you can notice, but I also wonder if, you know, we have all these sensory issues that come up in kids now, sensory integration disorders and so on, that tend to ... You know, they can, if they're extreme, they can put them on the autism spectrum and so on. And I'm just wondering if y- y- you know, you get different sounds, sights, smells, orientations and so on, that when you're being carried around and talked to constantly as opposed to stuck in a corner in some kind of little device or carrier, if that, if that doesn't impact the development of, of, uh, you know, our, our, our sensory, uh, machinery up there in the brain.

   20. CWChris Williamson29:03

       Well, think about all of the talk of, uh, attachment styles and attachment disorders, anxious attachment, avoidant, dismissive, uh ...

   21. PTDr Paul Turke29:12

       Mm-hmm.

   22. CWChris Williamson29:13

       I don't know. I mean ... (laughs) Even the studies where baby is left in room, toys are strewn around, mom leaves room, mom comes back in, baby calms back down eventually. How far does baby go away from mom? Uh, (sighs) I'd be fascinated to see the ancestral equivalent of that, you know?

   23. PTDr Paul Turke29:31

       Yeah.

   24. CWChris Williamson29:31

       How, how amazing it would be for us to be able to run some of these, uh, split tests, uh, uh-

   25. PTDr Paul Turke29:38

       Yeah.

   26. CWChris Williamson29:38

       ... experiments.

6. 29:39 – 33:47

   Sleeping Habits of Ancient Children

   1. CWChris Williamson29:39

      Uh, well, so you mentioned that, um, co-sleeping, h- where would babies have slept ancestrally? How would they have slept? What's the typical sleeping environment like? Give us a breakdown there.

   2. PTDr Paul Turke29:48

      Yeah. Well, co- co-sleeping was the rule. I mean, they didn't have soft beds and things like that and heavy comforters. Uh, it w- y- mostly w- would have been done on mats or on firmer surfaces and it would be ... Generally, mom would curl around the baby. The, the term that it's thrown out there now is it's called breast sleeping. There have been videotapings of how, how, how moms just sort of instinctively curl around baby and then, you know, pat, pat her on the head e- while they're not even awake and baby has the breasts available and can go from side to side. So in my view, I-... Th- You know, I mean, that's the way we all, we always s- slept. There were, there were no separate rooms or s- or beds or anything like that. So it's not co-sleeping that's dangerous, it's sleeping, uh, co-sleeping dangerously (laughs) that's dangerous, you know?

   3. CWChris Williamson30:40

      Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

   4. PTDr Paul Turke30:40

      If you, if you're trying to do it on a couch or something where baby's head can get wedged in the pillows and that, you know, or the cushion, you know, that can be dangerous. But, uh, th- I think Japan is a, is, is a good case in point. Co-sleeping is generally the rule there. Uh, and, and they have half the SIDS deaths and half the immortality rate that, that we do. So it's not co-sleeping per se, I think it's co-sleeping unsafely that is, is, is the problem. And I think co-sleeping has some advantages in terms of development and it's, uh ... You know, this gets me in trouble with, or at odds with, the American Academy of Pediatrics and, and I understand. I mean, they're speaking to a national population and they have to be talking to people who, you know, maybe they, uh, live in an impoverished situation where they don't have safe bedding or maybe-

   5. CWChris Williamson31:39

      Mm-hmm.

   6. PTDr Paul Turke31:39

      ... maybe dad's an alcoholic and if he hops in bed that does put baby at risk and, you know, all these things. So, so I sort of understand their, their position but just coming out as they do, hard stance against any co-sleeping, I, I disagree with. And a lot of the European countries are coming around to that view too, that it's okay to do it as long as you're being careful.

   7. CWChris Williamson32:01

      Talk to me about the transport response in infants.

   8. PTDr Paul Turke32:05

      The what?

   9. CWChris Williamson32:05

      Transport response.

   10. PTDr Paul Turke32:07

       I, I don't know what that is.

   11. CWChris Williamson32:09

       When babies ... Uh, they seem like they fall asleep more easily when they're being walked whilst carried. Is that not-

   12. PTDr Paul Turke32:15

       Oh. Yeah.

   13. CWChris Williamson32:16

       That was, that was ... Uh, Rob Henderson and me were talking about it earlier on, that, uh, if you wanna put a baby to sleep, you put them in one of those, I guess, rocking, you know, it's like a automaton thing.

   14. PTDr Paul Turke32:27

       Uh-huh.

   15. CWChris Williamson32:27

       And you're thinking, okay, so what are you trying to simulate there? You're trying to simulate s- being carried, right?

   16. PTDr Paul Turke32:33

       Being carried, exactly. Yeah, yeah. I know. I, I just spent, uh, uh, a week off with, uh, the grandchildren, one of 'em, sh- six months, and I just kept saying to myself, "Why won't you let me sit down?" (laughs) You know?

   17. CWChris Williamson32:46

       (laughs)

   18. PTDr Paul Turke32:47

       Walking along. But they j- they just don't. They, they want, they wa- they want you up, you know? And, uh, yes, they, they-

   19. CWChris Williamson32:52

       What's the, what's the adaptive explanation for that? Why would that be the case? Is that safer, baby ... If baby's being carried and moved, it's less likely to be eaten?

   20. PTDr Paul Turke32:59

       I, I think probably it has something to do with that. I mean, certainly being carried and being in close proximity, I think babies feel anxious when ... Naturally, just feel anxious when they, when they don't have that proximity. I'm not quite as sure about, uh, you know, why, why they want us to be expending the maximum amount of calories carrying them about and rocking and, and bouncing. But, uh, um, you know, what, what you just hypothesized there or speculated is that they ... That sending them signals that they're being held, that they're being cared for, you know? That, uh, that c- it could be something as straightforward as that.

   21. CWChris Williamson33:38

       They're, um, uh, meal on wheels as opposed to a TV dinner and, uh-

   22. PTDr Paul Turke33:42

       Yeah.

   23. CWChris Williamson33:42

       ... it's, it's harder to catch the meal on wheels especially if-

   24. PTDr Paul Turke33:44

       There you go.

   25. CWChris Williamson33:45

       ... the wheels are mom or dad. Yeah, okay.

7. 33:47 – 37:01

   The Evolutionary Reason for Why Kids Act Out

   1. CWChris Williamson33:47

   2. PTDr Paul Turke33:47

      Yeah.

   3. CWChris Williamson33:47

      So why, um ... What about some explanations for why toddlers might, uh, wake up at night or throw food or act out? Why might those be, uh, smart behaviors in some way?

   4. PTDr Paul Turke33:59

      Yeah. Well, tod- toddlers, toddlers f- wake up at night because they wanna, they wanna check in with, uh, you know, mom, mom and dad, I, I, I think. And, uh, they, you know, they don't have as, as much incentive to ... You know, they don't have to get up and do anything in the morning and, and so they, they're, they're, they're free to, to satisfy their, their whims that, that way. Um, as far as throwing food and, uh, tantrums if they don't get their way, uh, um, well, there are a couple things. Thr- throw- throwing food, especially, uh, vegetables and new foods, I, I think that, uh, uh, toddlers, once, once you're mobile, you have this natural aversion to, uh, just putting anything, anything in your mouth. Un- unlike when you're, you know, four months old, you'll put anything in your mouth. But as you get more mobile, uh, if you're, you know, just crawling about or toddling about the campsite, if you're willing to put everything in your mouth, that's probably not gonna be good for you. So you ha- you hand a, a six-month-old a stalk of broccoli, they'll, they'll eat it. You ha- ha- hand a two-year-old a stalk of broccoli, they're likely to throw it to the floor. And I think that makes some, some good a- adaptive, uh, sense. Um, as far as, uh, tantrums go, um, and just being very, very needy, I, I, I think I, I, I don't really know what the adaptive explanation is for that. But I do, you know, think that they just cognitively, um, uh, they're not very empathetic yet. They can't really put themselves in another individual's position and say, "Well, mom is busy right now. She can't carry me around even though I wanna be carried around." And-

   5. CWChris Williamson35:50

      Mm-hmm.

   6. PTDr Paul Turke35:51

      ... you know? And so they, they, they just want what they want, and, you know, at one moment, they might wanna give you a kiss and the next moment they wanna hit you over the head or something.

   7. CWChris Williamson36:00

      Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

   8. PTDr Paul Turke36:01

      Uh, it's just because they, they ... I, I don't think they've got it all, all figured out yet, you know? We're ... They're, they're, they're still learning how to be social. I mean, they're, they're, they're much better at it than say a chimpanzee would be at a similar age. But, uh, uh, it, it's a long learning process in humans, learning ... I mean, we're, we're the hyper-social species, right? That's-

   9. CWChris Williamson36:23

      Mm-hmm.

   10. PTDr Paul Turke36:23

       ... that's how we've prevailed is we, we know how to get along in groups and, uh, uh, we reciprocate with one another and, uh, and it, it's a long lesson for kids to learn sharing, you know? (laughs) It's, it's not an easy concept. Uh, uh, you, uh, but, they, it takes a long time to learn it and that's why a lot of alloparents, a lot of help in taking a long time to do it. Uh-... Is, is, uh, uh, very important. That's why those things have evolved, I think.

   11. CWChris Williamson36:54

       As an only child, you are speaking my language here (laughs) , uh, s- struggling to learn to share, et cetera.

   12. PTDr Paul Turke37:00

       Yeah.

8. 37:01 – 42:30

   Advantages of Breastfeeding

   1. PTDr Paul Turke37:01

   2. CWChris Williamson37:01

      Um, what do we know about breastfeeding?

   3. PTDr Paul Turke37:04

      Uh, we know it's the, the best way to go, and we, uh... It has numerous advantages for baby and hand mother. Um, you know, it helps establish a proper microbiome, it helps, uh, protect you early on in life when your own immune system is still getting up and running, uh, protects you, sp- um, uh, especially from diarrhea illnesses which used to kill a lot of babies back in, you know, the, uh, uh, in traditional societies. Um, there's some evidence, I, I don't know how solid it is, but there's some papers that I've read suggesting that you get four to five extra IQ points, uh, if you're breastfed for a, for a long period of time versus, uh, just imbibing a formula. There's some evidence that the microbiome interaction with the immune system and the nervous system, uh, can, uh, help reduce risks of developing, uh, m- mental angst problems, depression, and so on, uh, later, later in life. Uh, and then of course for mom, moms, uh, reduce their risk of, of b- breast cancer from breastfeeding and they always-

   4. CWChris Williamson38:19

      No way.

   5. PTDr Paul Turke38:19

      Yeah. Yep.

   6. CWChris Williamson38:19

      Wow.

   7. PTDr Paul Turke38:21

      And, uh, yeah. And there's a really cool study, I, I... It, it seems to be pretty empirically sound. It was very surprising to me. It's in evolutionary medicine and public health from a couple years ago showing that, um, uh, moms who breastfeed their babies have a lower incidence of, uh, developing early dementia.

   8. CWChris Williamson38:42

      (laughs) Oh my god.

   9. PTDr Paul Turke38:43

      Why?

   10. CWChris Williamson38:44

       How much is that selection-

   11. PTDr Paul Turke38:45

       They're making some correlate there.

   12. CWChris Williamson38:46

       I was gonna say, could be a selection effect there.

   13. PTDr Paul Turke38:48

       Yeah. Yeah. Right. Yeah. So, I don't know. But yeah, let... Multiple, multiple benefits from it, and unfortunately, you know, we don't grow up with it. We, uh, uh, it, it, it's, it... Very smart pe- I have some very smart parents in my practice and, uh, you know, they're, they're surprised when I tell them babies are designed to breastfeed for a couple of years, and they don't know about breastfeeding, and they come in from the hospital even if they've talked to a lactation consultant with their spreadsheets and so on. "Baby's done this, baby's had so many poops and so many voids," and blah, blah, blah, and they're all uptight and milk's not coming in yet, and they're st- somebody's telling them they have to supplement.

   14. CWChris Williamson39:33

       Mm.

   15. PTDr Paul Turke39:33

       And it all just interferes with breastfeeding. You have to relax. It just happens. You just... It, you know, there's, there's no breastfeeding failure in traditional societies, or it's very, very rare. Um, 'cause everybody s- sees it happen, they know how to do it, uh, and, um, i- but we have... I, I think it's less than 50% of US babies are still breastfeeding at, at six months. Um, and, uh, a, a lot of them don't even get that far into it because they worry about, you know, the initial weight loss or they worry about the jaundice that develops when you're getting a little bit dehydrated and, uh, you know, breast milk's not there yet and it's not washing out bilirubin and so on, and, and they start introducing formula, and then baby says, "Oh, well this is easier."

   16. CWChris Williamson40:26

       Mm. Mm-hmm.

   17. PTDr Paul Turke40:26

       And learns to prefer the bottle over, over the breast. And, uh, so y- you know, s- more often than you might think, both baby and mom end up giving-

   18. CWChris Williamson40:38

       Oh, wow. Yeah.

   19. PTDr Paul Turke40:39

       ... up, up nuts for them.

   20. CWChris Williamson40:40

       Bo- both parties have been weaned off of breastfeeding.

   21. PTDr Paul Turke40:43

       Yeah. Right. So, yeah.

   22. CWChris Williamson40:46

       That's interesting.

   23. PTDr Paul Turke40:47

       Uh-

   24. CWChris Williamson40:47

       What about, uh, C-sections?

   25. PTDr Paul Turke40:50

       Yeah. I mean, I think, uh, you know, C-sections obviously can be lifesaving and are necessary in, in some circumstances but, uh, they... (laughs) I, I just think that they're... In some, in some birthing centers there's n- they're just a little bit too cavalier about it, you know. Mom's got a, something coming up or the doctor's got a vacation, you know, and then it's just, "Ah, you know, you're at 40 weeks now. Let's not let it go too long. Let's just do a C-section," that kind of thing, and, uh, or, "Let's induce." S- same sort of thing. Some... Mom and baby have evolved a really good communication system for when baby is supposed to come, and we're not always really good at estimating what the exact conception date is. We know that because, you know, some babies are, are, are conceived now, uh, through artificial insemination, and, and we know then when they are conceived, and we know that we're a little bit off when we're estimating using ultrasounds and when mom thinks her last period was and so on. So, so I, I think they're overdone basically is the short, short answer. They're, they're lifesaving, wonderful interventions if done appropriately and much more sparingly than they are done now. Same with inductions. I, I just don't love to hear, "Ah, you're, you're 41 weeks and, uh, everything looks good but, uh, maybe we should just induce you right now."

   26. CWChris Williamson42:22

       Mm.

   27. PTDr Paul Turke42:23

       Well, well, if everything looks good I, I always wanna wait-

   28. CWChris Williamson42:26

       (laughs)

   29. PTDr Paul Turke42:26

       ... a few more days, you know? So, um, but-

   30. CWChris Williamson42:29

       Have

9. 42:30 – 51:23

   The Medicalisation of Childbirth & Childcare

   1. CWChris Williamson42:30

      you got a... Have you got a perspective on, uh, epidurals? Is there any insight there?

   2. PTDr Paul Turke42:37

      Uh, I, I'm not a real expert in that but what I, what I've been told by my moms and people that have them is it can interfere a little bit with pushing, uh, and getting, getting the baby out, and so then that increase your risk of some-... uh, doctor saying, "Uh, we better, we better do a C-section here."

   3. CWChris Williamson42:57

      Safe section.

   4. PTDr Paul Turke42:57

      That kind, that kind of thing.

   5. CWChris Williamson42:58

      Is there such a thing as a part epidural? Can you reduce down sensitivity by 50% or something like that? Do you know if they can tolerate it?

   6. PTDr Paul Turke43:07

      You know, I, that's a good question. I, I don't, I don't know the answer to that.

   7. CWChris Williamson43:10

      Let me-

   8. PTDr Paul Turke43:10

      You would think that would be a good, a good idea.

   9. CWChris Williamson43:13

      If-

   10. PTDr Paul Turke43:13

       I mean, it's easy for me to say, you know-

   11. CWChris Williamson43:14

       (laughs)

   12. PTDr Paul Turke43:15

       ... I'm good. Don't, don't do, you know, don't do epidurals. (laughs) Uh-

   13. CWChris Williamson43:18

       Yeah, yeah.

   14. PTDr Paul Turke43:19

       But, um, I mean, my, my daughter and daughter-in-law were able to, uh, do it and yeah, I guess they're pretty tough, but probably no tougher than the average, so, um...

   15. CWChris Williamson43:29

       Do C-sections interrupt, uh, lactation?

   16. PTDr Paul Turke43:32

       I think so because again, there's this, there's this fine-tuned timing, uh, mechanism between when babies should come and when nursing should start, but also mom's sore. I mean, it, it's, it's a surgery and mom doesn't feel quite as good and it's just not, it's- it's just harder for, uh, a mom to get things going and be, uh, quite as, uh, committed and diligent to it when you're recovering from a surgery. I mean, I, I could see, you know, uh, that if I, if, if I had to do some type of childcare thing, obviously not breastfeeding, but I had just had a hernia surgery or something-

   17. CWChris Williamson44:11

       Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

   18. PTDr Paul Turke44:11

       ... I might be less reluctant to carry out my duties-

   19. CWChris Williamson44:14

       Mm-hmm.

   20. PTDr Paul Turke44:14

       ... uh, in that situation, so I, I think it probably does interfere some.

   21. CWChris Williamson44:19

       I imagine that you have some concerns about surrogacy in that case then.

   22. PTDr Paul Turke44:23

       Yeah. Yeah, um, eh, that I, I, I haven't experienced too many people w- who've done it and I haven't run into any problems, but yeah, there, there certainly can, can be, uh, uh, you know, it's a sort of a mismatched kind of thing. It's a not very novel sort of thing, so we would expect there could be some problems there that, uh, crop up.

   23. CWChris Williamson44:48

       Childbirth, child-rearing in the modern world certainly seems to have become very medicalized. Uh, I wonder whether this over-medicalization could contribute to fertility decline in some way.

   24. PTDr Paul Turke45:04

       Yeah, uh, I, I think so. Uh, like I, like I said, people come in with their spreadsheets and I have to tell them, "Forget about counting the number of dirty diapers and all, all of those things." And, uh, people, y- you know, they, they come in with, yeah, they've had C-sections. They've had, they, yeah, it's been over-medicalized and in, it's, it's, uh, uh, it's just a much more stressful kind of thing, uh, than it is most likely in a, in a more natural setting. Uh, I, I think midwives often get people to relax. There's also a, you know, a home birth trend which, you know, I mean, I, I, I see the reasons for it. Um, and when it works, it works, but it's also more risky, you know, uh, if something... 'Cause things do go wrong in modern medicine, uh, you know, like, like again, like your pre- previous, uh, podcast with Peter Attia, we're good at, uh, uh, fast, fast deaths, we're good at avoiding those.

   25. CWChris Williamson46:12

       (laughs)

   26. PTDr Paul Turke46:12

       If something goes wrong you wanna-

   27. CWChris Williamson46:14

       Yeah.

   28. PTDr Paul Turke46:14

       ... be there, you want an obstetrician there who has a scalpel on hand if you need it. Um, s- yeah, so, so anyway, yeah.

   29. CWChris Williamson46:23

       What have you come to believe about the current demographic transition, these declining birthrates that we're seeing?

   30. PTDr Paul Turke46:30

       Yeah, well that, that's sort of what my early interest was as a graduate student when I went off... I, I went to Penn State and worked with, uh, an anthropologist named Napoleon Chagnon, um, and, uh, he was in- very much into, uh, uh, ev- evolution, uh, he was a cultural anthropologist who was becoming an evolutionary anthropologist, and I followed him at Northwestern my second year and I had to figure out something to do. So I would go into the library and I got interested in demographic transition and there was not a really good explanation in my mind for why people in modern settings had decided all of a sudden, you know, they'd switched from, "We want to have as many babies as we can." To, "We wanna have just a couple." Or in some cases it says it's none. And the prevailing ideas out there, the prevailing theory was coming from, uh, economists and, uh, economic minded demographers and, and their thought was, well, in traditional settings, um, after you pay this little upfront cost, kids become assets. They make you, they make you wealthy basically. And especially they care, take care of you and things like that and so there's no reason to limit reproduction in traditional settings but, um, because they lived in modern settings and they probably had kids, they knew kids were expensive in, in moder- modern settings. And so they were arguing that we would limit the consumption of, uh, children, expensive goods, just like we, we would limit the consumption of all other expensive goods. But that didn't make sense to me from an evolutionary point of view. First, I didn't trust their data because they would go into these traditional societies and ask hunter-gatherers, "Why do you want to have so many children?"
10. 51:23 – 59:50

    How Society Could Have Avoided a Rise in Food Allergies

    1. CWChris Williamson51:23

       So moving on to, you know, we've talked a lot about sort of development, child-rearing, the more sort of psychological and social side of stuff. If we get into the more medical, uh, elements of the pediatrics, what are some, what are some examples of medical missteps that could've been avoided if, if we'd had some evolutionary thinking?

    2. PTDr Paul Turke51:44

       Well, the, the big one that, that I worked on has to do with, uh, uh, food allergies, childhood food allergies. Um, back in the '90s, and it was officially codified by the, uh, uh, American, uh, uh, Pediatric Society in 2000 or 2001 I think it was, that you delay, delay, delay when it comes to the introduction of the eight or nine most allergenic foods. And I mean, first of all, that, e- e- evolution aside, that just never made sense from an immunological point of view. It just, I don't know how they came up with that idea, uh, because once the immune system is able to cause destruction, which starts in utero and is present in a big way even shortly after birth, you have to have proper tolerance mechanisms. It's not like you can wait, uh, till you're three years old to learn not to attack your own liver. Uh, so why they thought waiting till you're three years old to introduce peanuts, you know, is, is really, really beyond me. But the, the evolutionary angle there that if, if they had been, uh, more attuned to how we lived, you know, in, during the Pleistocene and, and before that, w- we were immobile pretty much as a species. We didn't, you know... Uh, we, we grew up in, uh, and died in the same ecosystem basically, uh, e- uh, generation after generation, so what that meant was that while, while mom was... while you were inside mom and she was eating, you were getting exposed to food allergens. When you were, she was breastfeeding you, you were getting exposed to food allergens. When you first started eating food yourself, you were getting exposed to food allergens, and those food allergens were the very same ones that you were going to get exposed to for the rest of your, your life.

    3. CWChris Williamson53:42

       Mm-hmm.

    4. PTDr Paul Turke53:43

       Um, and so, uh, th- the, uh, they, they, they eventually learned, not through thinking about it theoretically in any way, but just by going, "Oh my goodness, food allergies are soaring. And, oh, look, they're not allergic to peanuts in Israel because they, uh, they feed children early on..." Uh, they call them balmas which are peanut butter containing, uh, uh, biscuits. And so people started looking, "Well, maybe, maybe we made a mistake here. Maybe we should introduce things early." And so, uh, they eventually did some studies and found out that that was true. But, but if you thought about the way people always ate, you would be introduced to all of the foods you would ever eat, all the, all the allergens, all the antigens that you would ever encounter early on and your immune system will learn to tolerate them. And, uh, so it never made sense to say, "Let's not, let's not introduce things until you're, you're, you're older." So I think, uh, uh, evolution mindedness could've, uh, helped us to avoid, uh, uh, that, that problem. Um, you know, but I, I mean, I think, I think there are others. I think, uh, um, e- e- ev- evolution mindedness can help us to understand, um, what's a healthy diet, i- it can contribute to that. I mean, I, I know from listening to you, you're, you're, you're interested, uh, uh, in, in that. Um, it, it turns out there, there's a...... D- Really cool study that was done, uh, with fruit flies by, uh, Michael Rose and his group, uh, uh, Grant Rutledge was a, a s- grad student or a fe- or a fellow who worked with him. And, uh, what, what that, what they did was they, they, they changed up the diet that the fruit flies had evolved to eat. They, th- y- they had been eating for thousands of generations, they had been eating apple rot and then they brought them from, uh, that area, which I think was on the East Coast, to Michael Rose's lab in UC Irvine, and they didn't have rotten apples, I guess, so they fed them bananas doused in high fructose corn syrup. And what they found was that after about 40 generations, flies had adapted to that new diet to accommodate it really well, uh, while they were young. But even after 100 generations, they hadn't adapted to accommodate that new diet-

    5. CWChris Williamson56:20

       Mm.

    6. PTDr Paul Turke56:20

       ... while they were old and the, the, the most parsimonious explanation for that is that number one, selection is most powerful early in life, and number two, most genes have their effects comb- uh, confined to certain ages so that if a mutation comes along that allows a, uh, uh, a f- young fly to better digest a banana or if a mutation comes along that allows an old fly to better digest th- uh, uh, the banana, potent selection would accumulate for the young fly. Weak selection would not accumulate for the old fly.

    7. CWChris Williamson56:58

       Is this why kids tolerate modern diets better than grandparents do?

    8. PTDr Paul Turke57:02

       Exactly. Exactly. That's right. So beyond a certain age, you know, maybe 50 or so, uh, maybe earlier, uh, you should lay off the pancakes and donuts-

    9. CWChris Williamson57:16

       (laughs)

    10. PTDr Paul Turke57:16

        ... and things like that, that... I mean, no- nobody should be eating o- too much of that stuff, but you can certainly... Kids can do it. They can tolerate it much... They can tolerate a grain-heavy diet much better than, say, somebody my age can. It-

    11. CWChris Williamson57:28

        That's so interesting that-

    12. PTDr Paul Turke57:30

        ... it's because of that.

    13. CWChris Williamson57:31

        Yeah.

    14. PTDr Paul Turke57:32

        Yeah, the... You can apply that also, that line of reasoning, to, uh, infectious disease and I, I did that in an article, uh, shortly after the pandemic got going. Um, crowd diseases, you know, came on board once we started settling down and living in crowds, uh, moving indoors and so on, things like, you know, influenza and tuberculosis and, uh, uh, all those sorts of, uh, illnesses. And so, uh, th- i- as long as those diseases had certain commonalities, like they relied on crowding and, you know, maybe aerosol- uh, breathing in aerosolized virus, that kind of thing, young immune systems should evolve more quickly to be able to adapt to those crowd diseases-

    15. CWChris Williamson58:20

        Mm.

    16. PTDr Paul Turke58:20

        ... than, uh, old immune systems, uh, would. And, um, uh, I, I, I... There's, there's an evolutionary biologist that I've talked to who works with fruit flies who's interested in maybe tr- trying to test, test that idea. But, um, it, it's a little more complicated with immunology than it is... or, or with f- infection than it is with diet because i- we, we have an adept- a very p- a potent adaptation, uh, immunologically that helps us when, when we get a little bit older to, to fight diseases and that's immune system memory. So very, very young children often don't do as well with infections-

    17. CWChris Williamson59:02

        Oh, of course because-

    18. PTDr Paul Turke59:03

        ... because they haven't acquired memory yet.

    19. CWChris Williamson59:05

        ... you, you've accumulated all of the different blueprints of all of the different pathogens.

    20. PTDr Paul Turke59:09

        Exa- exactly. But when you're talking about a brand new virus that's just jumped into, uh, the, the population-

    21. CWChris Williamson59:17

        No, no one has any protection.

    22. PTDr Paul Turke59:19

        ... memory doesn't count anymore.

    23. CWChris Williamson59:20

        Ah.

    24. PTDr Paul Turke59:20

        And then you should expect the young to have i- i- uh, to... If... Again, there have to be commonalities and there are four other coronaviruses out there that passed through over the last 10,000 years. You would expect young people to have e- have evolved adaptations to deal with those infections to a better extent than old people, just as you would expect it for d- for diet.

    25. CWChris Williamson59:47

        What about, uh,

11. 59:50 – 1:03:32

    The Growth of Obesity in Kids

    1. CWChris Williamson59:50

       obesity in kids? Are there some, uh, evolutionary insights that you've come to believe with regards to that?

    2. PTDr Paul Turke59:58

       Yeah. I, I mean, uh, obviously, it's just a, a terrible problem, uh, uh, in our society, uh, uh, in th- yeah. And i- like you said, it can, it can start early and, I mean, it, it, I think largely comes from a mismatch. Uh, we used to have to work harder for our f- our foods and, uh, exert ourselves and, uh, and, uh, calorie-dense foods were not as available so we developed a taste for those. And, uh, now that w- we don't have to work hard for, to get the calories and we still have the taste for them, many people, uh, overdo it and they get their kids on that wagon, uh, quickly too where they're over-consuming. And, and then there's also just foods that nobody's had time to adapt to. There's stuff in the center aisle of the grocery store, you know, the, the trans fat-laden things and all that, that, uh, uh, people... Uh, soda pops and those kinds of things that people bring, bring into their house and so it, it's a, it's a daunting problem though. You can explain it to people. It's easy to get, it's, uh, easy to understand that, that mismatch. Um, but getting people to ov- you know, uh, be more active and, uh, avoid some of tho- some of those foods is, is just a hard thing. I, I, you know, I, I dread it when I've got a, a 10-year-old who can't hop up onto the exam table, he already weighs 130 pounds and...... you know? His parent sits down on the bench i- in the room and, you know, they're, they weigh 300 pounds. I mean, wha- what can I do, you know? I, I, I... If I could take the kid home with me, you know, I, maybe I'd have a chance, but-

    3. CWChris Williamson1:01:51

       Mm-hmm.

    4. PTDr Paul Turke1:01:52

       ... um, it's just, it's a really, really hard problem, uh, to solve. But, um, I, I think it's just s- so, so m- such an important thing. I mean, especially, our... I mean, it's a problem in kids, but it's especially a problem in, uh, you know, as people get older and, um, y- you know, I, I don't know what the number is, but so many of our healthcare dollars get spent keep- keeping people who've abused themselves, uh, you know, for five, six decades alive or, you know, trying to keep them partially alive, at least. And I mean, I think most of our healthcare dollars get spent trying to keep somebody alive for the last three months of their li- lives and that kinda thing. If we-

    5. CWChris Williamson1:02:38

       No, you're right.

    6. PTDr Paul Turke1:02:39

       I, I think so. And, uh, uh, if, if... Y- y- it's not that I'm against helping people when they're older, but if, if people would help themselves when they were younger and avoid some of these problems, all those healthcare dollars could be shifted, uh, to, to young people and, you know, daycares could be better and the m- then the mom stuck at home with three kids and no help. I mean, we could, we could reallocate a lot of these things as a society if, if people were just more responsible, but it's a tough problem, isn't it? I mean, you know-

    7. CWChris Williamson1:03:14

       Yeah. It's not, it's not just responsibility, right? It's hypernormal stimuli, calorie-dense foods, why not adapting-

    8. PTDr Paul Turke1:03:19

       Oh, yeah.

    9. CWChris Williamson1:03:19

       ... for the salty, sweetie-

    10. PTDr Paul Turke1:03:21

        Absolutely.

    11. CWChris Williamson1:03:22

        ... fluffy, crunchy, you know, all of the-

    12. PTDr Paul Turke1:03:24

        Yep.

    13. CWChris Williamson1:03:24

        ... all of the design. Uh, so-

    14. PTDr Paul Turke1:03:26

        Yeah. It's t- Yep.

    15. CWChris Williamson1:03:28

        Yeah.

    16. PTDr Paul Turke1:03:28

        We're up against all, all of that in trying to get people to change.

    17. CWChris Williamson1:03:31

        When it comes

12. 1:03:32 – 1:06:48

    Are We Overusing Medication?

    1. CWChris Williamson1:03:32

       to medication, do you think... Are we maybe overusing medication, uh, in some ways for issues that might be biologically meaningful? Are we stepping into important processes that wouldn't have, uh, obviously been intervened with ancestrally?

    2. PTDr Paul Turke1:03:46

       Uh, uh, I mean, I think so. Uh, they're, you know... I think antibiotics are wonderful inventions and lifesaving, but they're certainly overused. Uh, um, and so that leads to the evolution of resistance and stuff. But the big category that I think is overused are these psychotropic medications, the, you know, putting, putting teenagers on multiple antidepressants and, uh, ADHD medicines and, and so on. I, I'm always happier to start with, you know, changing behaviors, modifying behaviors, start, start with some counseling, start with some explanation, explaining to kids that it's, it's natural and okay to feel anxious. H- h- have you heard about the smoke detector principle?

    3. CWChris Williamson1:04:37

       Of course, yeah, that it's better to think there's a fire and then not be one than it is for there to be a fire and you not go off.

    4. PTDr Paul Turke1:04:43

       Right, right. So anxiety sort of operates that way. We get anxious and there's just so many things out there now to get anxious over. We have to learn to deal with it, rather than take a pill to try to eliminate it. So I think there's a lot of overuse and of course, the SSRIs, uh, that are used so commonly don't probably work as well as sustained exercise does over the long run and, uh, you know, but it's, but it, it's, it's a lot easier to take a pill, you know? And people, people often choose the easier way and there's a lot of pressure, you know, from the television and other media telling you, "Take this antidepressant and if that doesn't work, maybe another one will make you happier." So I think, yeah, I think it, it's overused and I think having an evolutionary perspective can, uh, w- you know, which includes something like the, the smoke detector principle can help us to sort of, uh, pull back on, on some of those things. And of course these old people we talked about who are unhappy 'cause they aren't taking care of their grandkids and they're on, uh, their SSRIs, well, move closer to your grandkids. I, I think that, uh, that'll work better.

    5. CWChris Williamson1:05:57

       I would love someone to do a study, uh, s- you know, uh, pay for older people to move closer to their grandkids and give the other group, uh, SSRIs and see which-

    6. PTDr Paul Turke1:06:07

       Yeah.

    7. CWChris Williamson1:06:07

       ... which, which one's happier. Yeah, it's, uh, it's really interesting, I think, considering how modern interventions that are well-meaning and, and, and help and, and are needed in many context, I think a lot of the time it's the overprescription. In the same way as it's not bad that we have cheesecake. I'm really, really grateful for the inventor of cheesecake and for the Earl of Sandwich and his invention of the sandwich. Um, but it's the over-application of, uh, these technologies and these foods that cause the issue. What would, um... I'm interested, what would an NICU

13. 1:06:48 – 1:11:20

    What an Evolution-Focused NICU Would Look Like

    1. CWChris Williamson1:06:48

       look like if it respected evolutionary design, do you think?

    2. PTDr Paul Turke1:06:53

       Um, well, you would, you would allow, uh, parents, mothers to be in contact, uh, with their, with their babies more and they're, there's, there's, they're doing that to some extent. You would be, uh, you know, you would be introducing breast milk a- as early, early as you can. Uh, you would be... Uh, I mean, I saw... I don't know how common it is but when I was a resident in, in, uh, in the NICU, you know, I saw babies who were induced or, uh, or made to come early who then had breathing difficulties and ended up in the ICU and on ECMO of all things because, uh, of, y- you know, s- kind of stupid errors like that, uh, and so I, I think, um-... just, just trying to, uh, b- being less cavalier about in- inductions and C-sections would, would help change the, uh, the complexion of, of NICUs but just allowing more parental contact, you know, they, they, they have the... And, and there, I think there's movement towards that. There's good information that they're trying to, uh... Uh, the problem is, it, it comes slower than I would expect because they, they have to wait for a study, uh, to show it over and over again before they, they, uh, you know, they... before they'll intervene in a way that's... Uh, and I, that makes sense if it's dangerous intervention but if it's an intervention like, "Let mom hold her baby more," it doesn't seem like it's that dangerous to me. We may not have to, and it might make sense from an evolutionary perspective. We might not have to wait for six multi-center studies to be done in order to conclude that that's a good idea. Um, so a- again, when it's a da- a dangerous intervent- potentially dangerous intervention, you want to have all those multi-center studies done but, um, uh... Doctors, uh, in, in my opinion, you, you know, uh, for good reasons are a little bit leery of theory. Uh, nobody wants their doctor just dreaming up a treatment for them in the shower the morning before this, this... you know, kind of a wild speculation. Um, w- w- evidence is a good thing but it can be, it can be overdone too. Doctors just, uh, you know, espe- medical students they're just, they're just not taught, uh, theory the same way graduate students are in other, other scientific disciplines. And of course, I'm partial to evolutionary theory and I really wish that, um, you know, it made its way into the licensing exams and it made it into the pre-med programs and all that. I, I was thinking about (laughs) when I got into medical school. You know, I had already had a PhD and I was teaching at University of Michigan and they let me in which was great, but, uh, they said I had to go take a, an organic chemistry course. So I went to the local community college and, and, and took that and, uh, uh, I've never really had to know any organic chemistry (laughs) because

    3. CWChris Williamson1:10:07

       (laughs)

    4. PTDr Paul Turke1:10:07

       ... in anything I've ever, ever done as a pediatrician but, uh, if rather than that, uh, or in at least in addition to that, I'd love to see, uh, pre-med programs include evolutionary biology courses, and I'd love to see continuing med- medical education include more evolutionary biology, and I'd really love to see more evolutionary biology undergraduates decide to go to medical school. That would be, that would be a real up boon to the, uh, discipline.

    5. CWChris Williamson1:10:38

       I'm all for it. I'm s-

    6. PTDr Paul Turke1:10:40

       Yeah.

    7. CWChris Williamson1:10:40

       ... I'm super all for it. I think, uh, all parents need to read a... Uh, in fact all single people need to read a behavioral genetics book as well.

    8. PTDr Paul Turke1:10:49

       Yeah.

    9. CWChris Williamson1:10:49

       If you're, if you're intending on having kids at some point, uh-

    10. PTDr Paul Turke1:10:52

        Sure.

    11. CWChris Williamson1:10:52

        ... I think all of the, uh, dating advice in the world and all of the child rearing books in the world could be replaced with Blueprint by Robert Plomin maybe. (laughs)

    12. PTDr Paul Turke1:11:02

        (laughs) Well, I think it's a great-

    13. CWChris Williamson1:11:03

        Look, if you-

    14. PTDr Paul Turke1:11:03

        ... yeah.

    15. CWChris Williamson1:11:03

        ... if you w- if you want to have a family at some point, it is made up of the raw materials of the person that you make them with and it's the-

    16. PTDr Paul Turke1:11:09

        Yep.

    17. CWChris Williamson1:11:09

        ... single most important decision in a child's happiness. You, you can't out educate bad genetics, uh-

    18. PTDr Paul Turke1:11:15

        Yeah.

    19. CWChris Williamson1:11:15

        ... bad, in, you know what I mean? Like, uh, uh-

    20. PTDr Paul Turke1:11:17

        Yeah. Right.

    21. CWChris Williamson1:11:17

        ... difficult, difficult genetics suboptimal in, in, in your-

    22. PTDr Paul Turke1:11:19

        Yeah.

14. 1:11:20 – 1:14:58

    Risks in Misapplying Evolutionary

    1. PTDr Paul Turke1:11:20

    2. CWChris Williamson1:11:20

       ... uh, choice. So you mentioned, uh, um, evolutionary theory. You're a fan, I'm a fan. Um, what are the risks and are there risks in misapplying evolutionary theory to social or medical contexts?

    3. PTDr Paul Turke1:11:35

       Um, y- e- yeah. Uh, if it's badly applied. I mean, there, there is this whole, it's been a ways back now of, you know, of social Darwinism and so on where, uh, y- y- you, h- h- y- so people can misunderstand and think that it's all about culling th- th- the weak and sick from the population and doing-

    4. CWChris Williamson1:12:00

       Mm.

    5. PTDr Paul Turke1:12:00

       ... things la... I di- I did an interview years ago for one of the science magazines where the interviewer, a real nice woman, wanted me to make clear that as a Darwinian pediatrician, I was in favor of taking care of the weak and the sick also, you know, because she d- she thought Darwinism implied they... you know, some people might think that that's not the case. So I mean, I think, uh, done, done poorly, social Darwinism can, can creep in. Um, e- evolutionary biologists, if you hang around in those circles, you'll often hear them say evolution is, uh, or the theory is descriptive not prescriptive.

    6. CWChris Williamson1:12:37

       Mm-hmm.

    7. PTDr Paul Turke1:12:38

       And, and it is. It's, it's up to you but i- i- in a little sense, in evolutionary medicine, we, we kind of violate that in the sense that we'll say things like, uh, we, you know, we, we might prescribe letting that fever go because fever is an evolved adaptation that helps you to, uh, fight your illness. So, so we're being... I mean, we're not forcing y- anybody's hand.

    8. CWChris Williamson1:13:04

       Mm-hmm.

    9. PTDr Paul Turke1:13:04

       But we're giving advice that says, uh, avoid the trans fats, uh, let the fever go, let the... you know, those kinds of things. So we're being a little bit prescriptive, I guess

    10. CWChris Williamson1:13:14

        I, uh...

    11. PTDr Paul Turke1:13:15

        ... in evolutionary medicine.

    12. CWChris Williamson1:13:15

        I have a friend who is very forward-thinking around his health, uh, m- early 30s guy, and he (laughs) , he actively seeks out illnesses that cause, uh, fever and this is because of some evidence that he's looked at that suggests that, uh, getting a fever and raising your body temperature internally, uh, is, um, good at... it's protective against cancer growth because it, it burns that through. Whereas, you know, immediately you have a-... uh, you have a fever and what are you doing? Now you're going to be, uh, "I'll regulate with air conditioning. I'll take something to bring down the temperature, or I'll go in and see the doctor," so on and so forth. (inhales) Yeah, it's, (sighs) it's funny the problems that are caused by being able to fix problems, you know?

    13. PTDr Paul Turke1:14:04

        Yeah. Right.

    14. CWChris Williamson1:14:05

        Mm-hmm.

    15. PTDr Paul Turke1:14:06

        Right. No, you're right, yep. Uh, and, and, w- without recognizing that some of them are defenses.

    16. CWChris Williamson1:14:13

        Mm.

    17. PTDr Paul Turke1:14:14

        If it's normatively bad, feeling sick with a fever is normatively bad, and so doctors ex- exist to fix things and make you feel better. And so we prescrip- we tell you to take, you know, the old saying, n- not in pediatrics, but the old saying for adults was take two aspirin and call me in the morning, right? Uh, and, uh, y- you know, we don't give aspirin to kids but, uh, the idea is the same. We, i- we, we, w- you know, we often tell them, "Take, take your ibuprofen or your acetaminophen, you'll feel better." Um, and there are rules for those things. It's not like you can never use them but, uh, uh, it's, yeah, like you said, uh, fixing things often makes things worse.

    18. CWChris Williamson1:14:57

        Paul Turk, ladies

15. 1:14:58 – 1:17:00

    Where to Find Paul

    1. CWChris Williamson1:14:58

       and gentlemen. Paul, you're awesome. Uh, I think an evolutionary perspective on child-rearing, uh, was desperately needed, and, uh, I'm really glad that Rob introduced me to your work. I think, I think it's so great. Where should people go? They're gonna wanna keep up-to-date with the stuff that you do and get a hold of the book.

    2. PTDr Paul Turke1:15:14

       Uh, yeah, I mean, the book's available on, on Amazon. It's called Bringing Up Baby: An Evolutionary View of Pediatrics. Uh, they can go to my, uh, website, uh, anybody, uh, who wants t- to ask me a question about, uh, uh, their child, they can, they can, uh, call my office. Uh-

    3. CWChris Williamson1:15:34

       Oh, how amazing.

    4. PTDr Paul Turke1:15:35

       ... uh, I, I've, I've, I've, I'm always interested to talk to people about, uh, um, th- evolution and child-rearing. Uh, I've had, I, I, I'm fortunate to have so many wonderful parents in my practice who, um, uh, sometimes I feel like I'm, I'd be boring them with some of the history

    5. NANarrator1:15:55

       (laughs)

    6. PTDr Paul Turke1:15:55

       ... explanations but then, then, the, they come back to me and they say, "Wow. That was, that's really cool." And I, I ran into a woman in the grocery store the other day who read my book and she says, "I didn't know you were so funny." I, I try to put a few jokes-

    7. CWChris Williamson1:16:09

       Mm.

    8. PTDr Paul Turke1:16:10

       ... in there, you know, to keep people's interests and so on, so.

    9. CWChris Williamson1:16:12

       Well-

    10. PTDr Paul Turke1:16:13

        So, yeah. So it's been exciting for me-

    11. CWChris Williamson1:16:15

        Yeah.

    12. PTDr Paul Turke1:16:15

        ... to write the book and to, uh, have people like you and Rob notice it, and I'm very grateful for being able to talk to you. I, I, I, I, I've been watching your podcast. My son has been a big fan for a long time. He... Yep, yep, and he... Yep.

    13. CWChris Williamson1:16:34

        Well, I promise you that you haven't bored anyone today, Paul, and if your, uh, if your son is a fan of the show, that suggests even more about the quality of the genetics. I'm, uh, I'm, uh...

    14. PTDr Paul Turke1:16:42

        (laughs) There you go.

    15. CWChris Williamson1:16:43

        (laughs) I'm very, I'm very good. Uh, I, I really appreciate you, Paul. Until next time.

    16. PTDr Paul Turke1:16:47

        Okay. Yeah. Well, thank you, yeah. Okay. Take care.

    17. CWChris Williamson1:16:49

        Congratulations. You made it to the end of the episode. And if you want more, well, why don't you press right here? Come on.

Episode duration: 1:17:00