How Love Actually Works - Dr Anna Machin

1. 0:00 – 4:23

   Why Did Love Evolve?

   1. CWChris Williamson0:00

      Nice to see you again. I really enjoyed our first conversation. We talked about dads, the importance of fatherhood. Today, your most recent book, Why We Love, I wanna talk about that.

   2. AMDr Anna Machin0:09

      Mm-hmm.

   3. CWChris Williamson0:09

      Very universal. Perhaps one of the most universal things that humans have got.

   4. AMDr Anna Machin0:13

      Yep.

   5. CWChris Williamson0:14

      W- why did love evolve at all?

   6. AMDr Anna Machin0:18

      Okay. So, love evolved basically in the same way that most things evolved, is because it aids our survival. So, humans are arguably the most cooperative species on the planet, both in terms of the number of relationships we can keep going at once, which is about 150, uh, in terms of the duration of those relationships that can last decades, and in terms of the very many different categories of relationships that we have. So, we're very cooperative. But cooperation is really hard as un-... We, we all know, we all know getting along with our friends, with our family, with our coworkers can be a little bit stressful sometimes, and it would actually be much, much easier to be solitary. But we have to live in a group and we have to get along with, with each other to just survive. And so, evolution came up with love basically. It's, it's kind of like a form of biological bribery at the most basic level. So it's, it's a set of neurochemicals which motivate and reward you for starting and then maintaining what we call your survival critical relationships. So those relationships that are critical to you both surviving on a day-to-day basis, but also passing your genes down to the next generation. So at the most basic level, that is all love is. It's just this biological bribery to make us feel good about doing this really quite difficult thing.

   7. CWChris Williamson1:28

      Are there any animals that don't have love? Are there any animals that haven't evolved that?

   8. AMDr Anna Machin1:35

      It's hard to say because love is a really nebulous concept, and it depends w- how you define it. I think we all have our own definition of love, and it depends at what stage you, you define it. I think a lot of animals feel what we would call basic love. So, all the mammals, for example, experience attachment. All the mammals are underpinned by things like oxytocin and dopamine. Um, you know, all mammals have those sort of caring, nurturing relationships, particularly be- between mothers and offspring. So we would say all mammals experience love. What we get a little bit hot in the head about is whether any animals experience human-type love, which is a little bit more complicated. And what I find (laughs) a little bit sad really is, you know, when... We just assume all humans feel love. So if I said to you, "Do you know what love is? Have you experienced love?" You'd go, "Yeah." And I'd go, "Okay." Um, but with animals, we hold them to a very high level of evidence. And so, to actually tell whether an animal experiences human-like love, you kind of have sort of a ch- a checkbox of five different things. So do they experience attachment? Is there, um, neurochemistry, does their neurochemistry involve beta-endorphin as well? Beta-endorphin is a more complex neurochemical that's involved in human love, which we don't see in the lesser mammals. Do they grieve, which is the loss of love? Uh, do they have friendships? So do they have relationships which have nothing really directly to do with reproduction or passing genes down, just for the hell of it essentially? And do they experience cognitive empathy? So there are different types of empathy. Um, there's emotional contagion, which is just, "Oh my God, you scream, I scream. I have no idea why I'm screaming, but something's scary." That's... A lot of animals have that. There's emotional empathy, which is, "I can see you're really upset, but I don't know what to do about it." And then there's cognitive empathy, which is, "I can see you're really upset, and I'm gonna help you in the appropriate way," which is what humans have. So I think if we use those five things, um, then we can say yeah, some high- higher mammals definitely do. So for example, cetaceans, the dolphins, the whales do. Um, gorillas, chimps do. Um, beyond that, it's a little bit tricky to say. Dogs might. Um, we're still not sure on the cognitive empathy with dogs, but dogs certainly may experience human levels of love. Um, there's a wonderful effective neuroscientist, unfortunately he's no longer w- with us now, called Jaak Panksepp, and he spent his whole life researching love. And what he said about human love is he said, you know, "Love is like the cupcake, and loads of animals have the cupcake, but what humans have done is they've over-decorated the cupcake. They put lots of rubbish on top, which is mostly the cultural stuff we associate with love. But all that lovely decoration on top isn't actually necessary to experience love. We've just kind of overly complicated it." So, I would say yes, a lot of animals experience love. I, I think keeping it exclusively for humans and setting this very high bar is, is maybe not fair, I think.

2. 4:23 – 7:23

   Is Love Just a Neurochemical Motivation?

   1. AMDr Anna Machin4:23

   2. CWChris Williamson4:23

      Going back to the biological bribery, is this just a neurochemical motivation in that way?

   3. AMDr Anna Machin4:30

      It's a motivation in terms of... Yes. So dopamine's evolved and dopamine is the hormone of motivation. Uh, it's also a hormone of reward though. So it's definitely... It involves the dopaminergic system, which is your reward system in your brain there. And if you look at the activations that occur in love, certainly the dopaminergic circuit is there. But it's more complicated than that, uh, because it involves things like beta-endorphin, which is addictive, and that undermi- that underpins long-term human relationships. You need something very, very powerful to underpin a relationship for decades. Um, it involves oxytocin. Oxytocin isn't just about, um... They call it cuddle hormone, which kind of annoys me, but... Um, oxytocin is about orientating you towards social objects in your environment, and it also acts on the amygdala to calm the amygdala so that you're more confident about building relationships. And serotonin's involved, and serotonin is about obsessive love. So it's more complicated than just a motivation to go over there and chat to someone, it has this quite complex, uh, structure of different roles for different neurochemicals.

   4. CWChris Williamson5:31

      But it's bribing you or motivating you in one way or another to do things that perhaps without that soup of neurochemicals you wouldn't go and do. You wouldn't sacrifice yourself in this way, you wouldn't care as much, you wouldn't be as vigilant-

   5. AMDr Anna Machin5:42

      Yeah.

   6. CWChris Williamson5:43

      ... you wouldn't wake up at 3:00 in the morning to feed the baby-

   7. AMDr Anna Machin5:45

      Nope.

   8. CWChris Williamson5:45

      ... et cetera, et cetera?

   9. AMDr Anna Machin5:47

      No, you wouldn't. You wouldn't, because it's just really, really difficult. Because being social, as I'm sure you know, being in a group is actually costly to your survival. You know, it's very stressful being in a group. You don't get to do exactly what you need ideally for yourself every day, you have to coordinate with everybody else. You've got people who are constantly trying to stab you in the back or do one over on you, so you have to spend a hell of a lot of time monitoring everybody else to make sure that everyone's behaving. You exist in a hierarchy which is gonna dictate-... the access to resources you get. So, if you're at the top, fab, you're gonna get the best mates, you're gonna get the best food, you're gonna get the best shelter. If you're at the bottom, you're kind of screwed. So, um, it's really, really hard to do. But humans mainly, because we birth our babies so incredibly early, we need to help each other particularly to raise our children. Um, and we talked about fatherhood before. Fatherhood's one of the things that started. But we need, we do need that village to help us raise our children. And we need each other to learn everything we need to learn about our complex technological world. So, social learning is really important, so we need each other to do that. So, it's this balance. We need all these things from each other, but it's so stressful, it's actually quite costly. Um, and it can be quite dangerous. You have to compete. You might not actually come out of it alive. So, yes, it's... At the most basic level, it's there to go, "Here we go. I know it's really hard, but I'm gonna give you all this lovely stuff and hopefully that'll make you feel better." Obviously, as I can hear people screaming, love is much more complicated than that. But that is the, the reason why it evolved in the first place.

   10. CWChris Williamson7:13

       What about the phases of romantic love? Explain the way that love and lust and all of the different systems work.

   11. AMDr Anna Machin7:21

       Okay. So, lust and attraction are

3. 7:23 – 13:19

   Stages of Romantic Love

   1. AMDr Anna Machin7:23

      two entirely separate systems. Lust is driven by your hypothalamus, and it's associated with the sex hormones. And we kind of sometimes conflate attraction and lust in our minds. When we talk about attraction, most people think about romantic attraction. Um, actually, attraction is the stage that starts all relationships. All attraction is, is being drawn towards somebody out of interest, or out of desire, or whatever it might be, or b- simply because you like them. So, attraction is a stage that you go through in your friendships, it's, it's, you go through it when you first meet your baby for the first time. That's a stage you go through. So, attraction underpins all forms of love. Lust is only there in romantic relationships, and it's a very separate area of the brain. So, attraction is based in oxytocin and dopamine. Uh, and as I said, oxytocin works to orientate you to social beings in your environment and kind of block out distractions, and it also quietens your amygdala, which is the fear center of your brain, which means that sort of the nagging, confidence-sapping voices that can sometimes occur when you're thinking about striking up conversation with somebody, those are quietened so that you feel more confident, you feel more chilled about doing this quite difficult thing. And dopamine is there to reward you certainly, but it's also there to give you a bit of a kick up the bum. Because oxytocin is lovely, but if you just have it on your, uh, on its own, you probably wouldn't make any efforts at all, because it makes you feel really, really chilled. And so, you probably wouldn't make the effort to go across the bar or the playground or wherever you are. So, we have some dopamine to... Uh, because it's wired into your muscles, it's wired into your motor circuits, to go, "Come on, you've actually got to go and do something." And the other important things about, about dopamine and oxytocin is they make your brain more plastic, so... Particularly in the areas relating to memory and learning. And when you first meet somebody, think of all the stuff you've got to learn about that person, particularly if you're gonna meet them again. You're gonna recognize them, you're gonna know their name, you're gonna know what they're interested in, you know, the sound of their voice, all these sorts of things. So, your learning areas and your memory areas become more plastic, which means they're very open to change, and it... And you do that very efficiently in those sort of first seconds, minutes.

   2. CWChris Williamson9:23

      Wow, so you're being, you're being neurochemically primed to be-

   3. AMDr Anna Machin9:27

      Yeah.

   4. CWChris Williamson9:27

      ... a good, receptive friend?

   5. AMDr Anna Machin9:30

      Yes. Yes. To take all of this on board so that you remember that person, essentially.

   6. CWChris Williamson9:36

      Mm.

   7. AMDr Anna Machin9:36

      And so, that's what happens in the attraction stage, and attraction initially is entirely unconscious. So, in the romantic sense, what we do is we take in lots and lots of sensory information from that person. And, and we're taking in that sensory information because what we're trying to judge from that person is, "Is this a good potential mate?" Um, and so we're gonna take in visual information about things like body shape, about facial symmetry. We're gonna, um, l- hear what they're saying, what the tone of their voice is. We're going to... If you're a woman, you're gonna smell whether they're genetically compatible with you. Men can't do that, women can. Um, and you're gonna take in all this information, and it goes through this very complex algorithm in your brain. And what that algorithm's trying to test is, yeah, how valuable is this person as a mate? How reproductively successful are they going to be? And that's known as their mate value. We all have a mate value on our head, it's kind of like financial value in the stock market, and we will be calculating that using the indicators we've looked at to work out, "Okay, how reproductively successful is this person actually gonna be?" And if they're a good, a good bet, if they're good, then basically you kind of get the three cherries on the slot machine, and oxytocin and dopamine flood an area of your brain called the nucleus accumbens, which is incredibly unconscious, very, very deep, um, and it's simply there to start this, kickstart this process. And it's entirely unconscious. And that whole process of sensory intake, of algorithm chundering away, of oxytocin and dopamine, that's like nanoseconds of time. Um, and then, at that point, you know, hopefully you cross over and you say hello. But, at some point, that, that signal moves from the unconscious brain into the conscious brain, and we have kind of both things going at the same time, where you start to c- you know, consciously contemplate this person. Oh... You know, thinking things like, "Oh, my God, they've got lovely eyes," or, "Actually, their tone of voice is quite annoying," or, "Oh, do I agree with what they're saying? What will my friends think? What will my family think?" All those sorts of things. And then attraction becomes an unconscious and conscious process, basically.

   8. CWChris Williamson11:28

      Dig into that genetic compatibility thing, the-

   9. AMDr Anna Machin11:31

      (laughs) Yeah.

   10. CWChris Williamson11:32

       ... super s- super sniffer skill that women have that men don't.

   11. AMDr Anna Machin11:36

       Yeah. Okay. So, what that is, is, um, there's an area of your genetic code known as the major hym- histocompatibility complex, and that underpins the diversity of your immune response to disease. Rather bizarrely, some of the, um, genes in that complex also underpin your sense of smell. Go figure. And, um, what women can do is they can actually smell how close, uh, a male's set of MHC genes are to their own. So, if they're close to their own, they will not like the smell of that person, because they're too close-It's suggestive of inbreeding, and actually what you want for your child is the most diverse immune response you could have, so you need your partner to have an MHC complex as far away from yours as possible. And so what we find with women is they are able to smell that and they can, they can tell. So, it's really funny, you would never consciously know you're doing it, but sometimes, you know, like women will say to me, "I met him. He was perfect in lots of different ways, but there's just- just something, just something that I- I can't put my finger on, but didn't work for me." And that's that. We think women can do it and men can't, either because they've evolved to do it or they've retained it. We don't know whether mammals can do it, obviously-

   12. CWChris Williamson12:47

       Mm-hmm.

   13. AMDr Anna Machin12:47

       ... 'cause we can't really tell. Um, or they've retained it and men have lost it. We think because for a woman, making the mistake of inbreeding is much more serious, because she's then, if she becomes pregnant, gonna be out of the game for nine months, doing in our evolutionary past something very dangerous, which is be pregnant and give birth. Um, and so the risk to her of death is high, and therefore, you know, you kind of have to be pretty sure that this baby that you're- that you're gonna birth is going to be strong and it's gonna be healthy, essentially. So we think women can do it and men can't for that reason.

4. 13:19 – 15:51

   Why Humans Kiss

   1. AMDr Anna Machin13:19

   2. CWChris Williamson13:19

      Is that why humans kiss as well?

   3. AMDr Anna Machin13:23

      (laughs) Possibly. We actually don't know. Not all humans kiss in the romantic sense, actually. All humans kiss, but only 100% of kissing across the cultures occurs between mothers and children. So there are some, um, cultures where you don't romantically kiss. So there's always been this massive debate about why did we evolve kissing, 'cause some primates kiss, but they kind of- they don't do it very consistently and they don't seem to do it in any particularly sort of regular context, so it's quite hard. So chimps, you'll see chimps kissing, but it's not really quite sure what they're doing. Some theories have been i- evolved in moms and children to sort of pass masticated food. Um, the other thing is that, yes, maybe it is something to do with getting closer to people and smelling them, though having said that, you know, mammals, other mammals managed to do that without kissing, so why do we need to do that? S- some people think it's something to do with testing the health of the person, tasting the health of the other person.

   4. CWChris Williamson14:20

      Mm-hmm.

   5. AMDr Anna Machin14:20

      Um, and something- some people say, yeah, it's just a really good bonding thing. Your lips have got a lot of sen- uh, sensory neu- um, uh, lots of nerve endings, and therefore by kissing you- you- you know, you might be increasing in terms of the bonding, in terms of oxytocin and things like that, 'cause it's touch. But do you know what? Nobody actually knows the answer as to why we kiss.

   6. CWChris Williamson14:40

      I think it's really interesting. The compatibi- I think it was actually, uh, Mr. Dunbar himself who I read... I can't remember what it was I was reading. I was reading something of his, and he was talking about the evolution of- of kissing and why it was potentially... Then I think he posited maybe it's increasing proximity, it's allowing you to check for compatibility between immune systems, but yeah, uh, it's so ubiquit- or maybe you're right, maybe you're right. I- I didn't realize that not all human cultures do kiss.

   7. AMDr Anna Machin15:09

      No.

   8. CWChris Williamson15:09

      But, um, at least m- many do, uh, and-

   9. AMDr Anna Machin15:12

      Many do and it's, you know, it's culturally something that, yeah, I would say probably 80, 85% of cultures kiss in their romantic context. So it's- it's certainly something that's there.

   10. CWChris Williamson15:21

       What are the ones that don't? Do you know- do you know any of the ones that don't?

   11. AMDr Anna Machin15:25

       I know that there are some in terms of there are some, uh, cultures in Africa that don't and there are some cultures, I think, in South America that don't. But we don't really know why. They do kiss, their children.

   12. CWChris Williamson15:38

       Mm-hmm.

   13. AMDr Anna Machin15:38

       So I don't know why they don't ki- but it's just not seen as- as a s- as a sort of a sexual or romantic thing. Um, so it's definitely got a cultural undertone to it. And whether we've just all, you know, learnt to do it, I don't know.

5. 15:51 – 21:23

   Love’s Role in Long-Term Relationships

   1. AMDr Anna Machin15:51

   2. CWChris Williamson15:51

      Talk to me about the role of love in maintaining a romantic relationship long term, in dealing with th- the vicissitudes and jealousy and concern and male parental uncertainty.

   3. AMDr Anna Machin16:01

      Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Okay, so love is different obviously to attraction. It's a different set of neurochemicals. Um, and they are, as I said, they- they're unique to humans, uh, and some of the higher primates. So these are the chemicals that underpin really long term relationships. Because oxytocin is- is great if you are quite a short-lived little mammal, like a little vole or a little mouse, which is- which is the creatures that were studied to discover oxytocin in this context. But the problem with it underpinning long term relationships is first of all it doesn't last very long. A hit of oxytocin lasts maybe 30 minutes. And secondly, um, it- we grow tolerant to it. So, over time, the hit of oxytocin you're gonna get from someone is gonna lessen, and that's not going to underpin something in the long term. So we needed something that you didn't grow tolerant to. The other issue with oxytocin is it's only released in any large quantities in relationships which are associated with reproduction, so that's in the mother/child, father/child relationship, and in the sexual relationship. It's- it's increased for exa- it's- sorry, it's released for example in quite large quantities during orgasm and during- during sexual activity. It is released in friendships, but at a much lower level, and the problem with humans is actually the vast majority of our relationships in that 150 network aren't sexual, aren't reproductive, aren't with children, and so we need a chemical that's decoupled from reproduction to enable us to maintain those relationships, and that's where beta-endorphin comes in, and beta-endorphin was discovered actually in the primates. It's- it's what's released when primates groom each other. And, you know, all the primatologists out there will know that grooming isn't- isn't a utilitarian activity. It's not about hygiene. It's about bonding. So primates groom when they've had an argument. They groom to, um, underpin alliances. They groom to make friendships, and beta-endorphin is what's released. And so when we knew that, there's a group at Cambridge who discovered that, then Robin and I at that point were like, "Okay, well this is much lo- more likely candidate to be the underpinning of human love than oxytocin is." And so we began to research the role for beta-endorphin in- in human love, um, and we've, you know, spent many years doing that, and done lots and lots of scans and things like that, and that's- that's the answer, is that beta-endorphin is. Beta-endorphin is the- is the neurochemical of long term love. It's your body's opiate. Um, it evolved in the first instance as your body's painkiller, so it's what's released when you hurt yourself.

   4. CWChris Williamson18:30

      Mm-hmm.

   5. AMDr Anna Machin18:30

      But over time, it's been co-opted into the social realm, and it's now what is released when you do something social. And there's lots of activities decoupled from reproduction that produce it, such as laughter, touch, exercise, dancing, singing, you know, even having a hot curry, bizarrely. Um, there's lots of things that-

   6. CWChris Williamson18:48

      (laughs)

   7. AMDr Anna Machin18:48

      ... that release beta-endorphin. (laughs) So, um, so it's really good for that social cons- context that you can get it released from. And as it's... And we don't grow, um, tolerant to it over time, it- it remains a very potent chemical.

   8. CWChris Williamson19:03

      Mm-hmm.

   9. AMDr Anna Machin19:03

      Um, so, so that's what underpins human love in terms of neurochemistry, but obviously there are many other things going on. Then you've got the psychological elements of, of human love, so you've got things like attachment, um, but you've got, you know, all... lots of things around sort of love languages and maintenance behaviors and empathy and trust and reciprocity and all these other things which sit in your neocortex. So, human love is very complicated. When people say to me, "What is love?" I tend to say, "It's really (laughs) hard to define. Depends what level of explanation you'd like me to answer that at." But what I will say is very broadly, it has two dimensions, which is what sets it apart. It has a biological dimension, which is the neurochemistry, the neural activation, the genetics, that kind of thing, the psychology. And then it has a social dimension, and that's all that cultural stuff. So that's religion, politics, society, media, education, family stories, that kind of thing. And that also impacts how you personally would define love.

   10. CWChris Williamson20:02

       How much has our conception of love been molested by culture, do you think?

   11. AMDr Anna Machin20:10

       Quite powerfully. Culture can overwhelm biology quite easily. Culture is very powerful and culture can tell you to work against what your biology is telling you to do, very definitely. There are many societies in the world where there are rules around acceptable love or what is... you know, which drive very strongly against our biological drive to, to experience love. So, culture is very powerful and it certainly does underpin a lot of how people define love. So, if you ask the question, "What is love?" around the world, you will get some very different answers. I mean, we obviously, in the West, are kind of enthralled to the concept of romantic love, for example, if we look at it in that context. Um, there are many cultures in the world who don't believe in the concept of romantic love. For them, love between a man and a woman might be more spiritual. It might be more centered simply on the family. It might be actually seen as a form of self-sacrifice. Um, in some countries it's actually seen as being quite a negative thing, something to do with sort of unrequited love and, and-

   12. CWChris Williamson21:10

       Mm-hmm.

   13. AMDr Anna Machin21:10

       ... kind of losing yourself in the other person. So, it really does depend, the culture you've been brought up and the rules you've been told, about what love is and what is acceptable when it comes to love.

6. 21:23 – 24:49

   Do Men & Women Feel Love Differently?

   1. AMDr Anna Machin21:23

   2. CWChris Williamson21:23

      Is love different, uh, romantic love different for men and women? Do men experience love in a different way?

   3. AMDr Anna Machin21:29

      No.

   4. CWChris Williamson21:29

      Do women experience love in a different way?

   5. AMDr Anna Machin21:31

      No. It's a, it's a myth that there's this amazing... I... Quite often I get asked that question and people say to me, "Well, you know, we've got all these things that men aren't emotionally intelligent and da, da, da, da, da, and all that kind of stuff." No. If you look at the averages, there are more differences within the sexes in terms of how someone experiences romantic love than there are between the sexes. So, if I put somebody in my scanner and nobody tells me what sex they are, I would not be able to tell from looking at the screen when we were doing it-

   6. CWChris Williamson21:58

      Mm-hmm.

   7. AMDr Anna Machin21:58

      ... a love experiment, for example.

   8. CWChris Williamson21:59

      Interesting.

   9. AMDr Anna Machin21:59

      I couldn't possibly tell. So, the activations are the same, the neurochemistry is the same. What influences how individuals experience love is much more their genetics, which are not sex-linked, um, their attachment profile, um, and a lot is to do with their upbringing. So, all of that is much more influential than what your biological sex is. Now, some of that will be influenced along gender lines. We do, um, tell stories differently to boys and girls about what love is.

   10. CWChris Williamson22:31

       Mm-hmm.

   11. AMDr Anna Machin22:32

       And it's re- There's a really interesting study that I quote in the book which was looking at schoolchildren and asking them at the age of five to draw a picture of, you know, romantic love. And all the kids, regardless of their, their sex or gender, draw, you know, people happily holding hands and there's butterflies and it's all lovely and da, da, da. And then after the age of 11, when kind of puberty's kicked in and maybe we've had a little bit of gender, you know, um, cultural gender sort of bias coming on, then the boys all do pictures of big strong man looking after p- small weak woman, and then the girls are still doing butterflies and hearts.

   12. CWChris Williamson23:04

       (laughs)

   13. AMDr Anna Machin23:04

       And, and that's quite-

   14. CWChris Williamson23:05

       The girls just didn't grow up.

   15. AMDr Anna Machin23:06

       ... and that's quite... No. But, you know, it's really powerful.

   16. CWChris Williamson23:09

       Yeah.

   17. AMDr Anna Machin23:10

       It's really powerful, what we tell boys they should feel when they're in love and how they should act when they're in love. But actually, if you look at their brains, they're no different.

   18. CWChris Williamson23:20

       Mm-hmm. What do you think-

   19. AMDr Anna Machin23:20

       It's just very heavily gendered.

   20. CWChris Williamson23:23

       What do you think is the subtext that we tell young males about their role in love?

   21. AMDr Anna Machin23:31

       That they're the protector. That they're the protector and they're the rock, and therefore you shouldn't really show emotion. You shouldn't, um, become involved in, yes, the sort of emotional extremes of love. You should be very balanced, very controlled, and, and you are there to protect the female, essentially. And I think that's what we tell boys about love, and that, you know, showing emotion, being upset by love or being passionate about love or whatever these things-

   22. CWChris Williamson24:02

       Mm-hmm.

   23. AMDr Anna Machin24:02

       ... is, is a female, a feminine thing to do. And to cry about love is a feminine thing to do. And I think that's the stories we tell because if you go to other cultures where they don't have those stories, men are very open and emotional about, about love. Not just love in the romantic sense, but love, love for their friends. You know, you will see, for example, in some Arab cultures, men holding hands and kissing each other, and it's all very passionate, it's all very out in the open and very emotional. And you would not see...... men, for example, in the UK doing that.

   24. CWChris Williamson24:34

       (laughs)

   25. AMDr Anna Machin24:34

       Because that's, that's not what we do. But it's not because they're incapable of it, it's because they've b- they've been told, "You, you don't do that." You know, so, uh, love is, is pretty heavily gendered, definitely.

7. 24:49 – 36:26

   How Genetics & Environment Impact Love

   1. CWChris Williamson24:49

      Talk to me about the genetic upbringing and detachment contribution.

   2. AMDr Anna Machin24:54

      Mm. Okay. So, it's, it's hard to say exactly what the balance is. As everyone knows, there's a quite a, there's a very complex interaction between genetics and the environment, particularly when it comes to love, because the genes that underpin our social cognition and the neurochemistry I spoke about are many, there's many of them. Um, even on the oxytocin receptor gene alone, which is one of the major, uh, genes that influences how you experience love and how you feel, you know, there are 26 point mutations on there that affect how you experience love or how you behave, or for example, how skilled you are at certain things to do with love, such as empathy. So, in itself, that's really complex. And then you've got serotonin, you've got dopamine, you know, you've got beta-endorphin, and they've also all got their little point mutations going on, and there's probably many, many p- more point mutations out there we haven't even found yet. So, it's very, very complex. Some of them have more power than others, um, and some of them are what we call cumulative. So, there are five point mutations on the oxytocin receptor gene which impact how good you are at empathizing. Now, empathy, as I mentioned, cognitive empathy, is one of the hallmarks of human love, but how adept you are at it, how adept you are at reading people's emotions and meeting that need is partly under genetic control. Um, and of these point mutations, there are, there are five beneficial versions and there are five which means it's harder for you to do. So, the more of the beneficial versions you carry, the better you are at empathizing, for example. Um, there are other areas on the oxytocin receptor gene which are associated with your motivation to want to be in relationships, um, and so some people carry a version where they're very motivated to be in relationships. They tend to have a lot of different relationships, friendships, family relationships, you know, love rel- uh, romantic love relationships. They tend to find them really satisfying. They're the kind of thing that, that grounds them and makes them happy. Um, whereas other people who carry a version of that gene, of that, that point mutation find relationships quite hard. They tend not to be that motivated to be in them, and actually when they're in relationships, they find them quite stressful.

   3. CWChris Williamson26:54

      I wonder if you could do a self-report for people, I'm s- there must be an introversion/extroversion scale or maybe you could just do a, a survey of, "Do you find time with people to be revitalizing or do you get your energy from being-"

   4. AMDr Anna Machin27:07

      Yeah.

   5. CWChris Williamson27:07

      "... on your own?" And then to-

   6. AMDr Anna Machin27:08

      Yeah.

   7. CWChris Williamson27:09

      ... match that up with this mutation.

   8. AMDr Anna Machin27:10

      Exactly, see if there's a genetic influence then, exactly, exactly. 'Cause, um, the oxytoc- as I said, what the oxytocin receptor gene does is it orientates you to social people and it gives you confidence and makes you feel chilled. Now, what it sounds like with those people who find it difficult is that, that gene, it might influence things like the density of oxytocin receptors. So, for example, you just obviously don't have as many oxytocin receptors, so oxytocin just does not have the same effect on you, so you are less motivated, you're getting less of a benefit, you're getting less of this lovely chilled feeling and less of the confidence, and that might be what's affecting you. And as you say, that might be associated with those personality traits of introversion-

   9. CWChris Williamson27:48

      Mm-hmm.

   10. AMDr Anna Machin27:48

       ... for example. Um, so it's really interesting, the genetics, but as I said, there's a very complicated interaction with your environment because the reason why your environment is so influential on how you behave in relationships, how you feel, is because the human babies have a very v- quick period of brain growth after birth of about two years, and that's because we're born too early with a very incomplete brain. And the bit that's not complete is the prefrontal cortex, which is where your social cognition sits. And so that means it's very susceptible to the environment in which it's raised. And we know that now looking at, um, brain scans of children who are brought up in both nurturing environments and also in neglectful environments. So, if you're brought up in a nurturing environment, you get very, very high connectivity, you get very dense gray and white matter in that area. If we look at your amygdala, it's small, it's, it's not hyperactivated, so you're not constantly detecting risk, for example. Uh, you tend to have high circulating oxytocin. Um, so you're kind of, you've got this wonderful foundation that you've been given by this nurturing environment to be able to do this.

   11. CWChris Williamson28:51

       And this is, this is largely in- independent of your genetic predisposition.

   12. AMDr Anna Machin28:56

       Yes.

   13. CWChris Williamson28:56

       This si-

   14. AMDr Anna Machin28:56

       This is independent of your-

   15. CWChris Williamson28:57

       On top of it.

   16. AMDr Anna Machin28:57

       Yes, this sits, this, it sits on top of it. Uh, whereas if we looked at, looked at a child who maybe was neglected or even not neglected but had insecure attachments, intrusive parenting, all that kind of thing, then you can see kind of, you c- well, in extreme cases you get neuronal death, so actually that person just does not have the density in, of gray and white matter in there or does not have the architecture which is gonna provide the foundation. They tend to have overlarge, uh, amygdalas which are constantly activated. They tend to have very high levels of cortisol, these sorts of things. So, you can see the impact the environment's had. And we know also that children who are brought up in those environments go on to struggle with relationships. They go on to have more risk of antisocial behavior, that kind of thing. Um, whereas children who are brought up in nurturing environments, there's much less risk of that. So, but having said that, I would have said maybe 10 years ago if you'd said to me and my colleagues, attachment, so attachment is a psychological mindset, um, to do with, uh, attachment relationships are very intense, they're developmentally significant, uh, they're marked by particular characteristics such as separation anxiety, desire for proximity, that kind of thing, and they're quite rare, but they're very important and your attachment profile is important in influencing how you behave when you're in love and how you feel. But we always thought that it was entirely environmental, that really how you turned up, because that's kind of how it looked, to be honest, you know, neglectful environment, much more likely to have insecure attachment going into life. You know, nurturing environment, much more likely to have secure attachment, be, you know, good at having relationships, all that kind of stuff. But then on, again, on the oxytocin receptor gene, uh, a team, not us, found, um-... a set of genes which are known as being differentially susceptible, and what these genes are, is they, or, or these point mutations, they influence how powerful the environment is on your attachment profile.

   17. CWChris Williamson30:51

       Mm.

   18. AMDr Anna Machin30:52

       So, if you carry a version of this gene which means that your environment is less effective in terms of altering your attachment profile, if you're in a really nurturing environment, then that means obviously that the environment, y- you're not gonna have the same powerful influence of it being secure. But what it does mean is if you're in a neglectful environment, that environment will have much less of an effect upon ultimately your attachment relationships when you get older, your ability to navigate relationships. And we kind of call them the armor-plated genes, because we would meet people who would come into the lab, and I meet people at public talks even who come up to me, and they've had the worst upbringing, as you've heard, like really awful. But they are navigating their social relationships so well, completely stable, completely secure, doing really well. And we used to joke, we would be like, "Wow, they must have some amazing genes, because there's something going on there that..." And this team found that, and they found that actually, these people who carry these armor-plated genes, they are kind of protected from that environment, and they can kind of sail through that environment kind of unscathed, because they have these genes which means, no, actually, these genes are more powerful than that environment is. So, it's- it's really, really interesting, and I think we will probably find more genes and more point mutations which are differentially susceptible, 'cause the more you dig into the genetics, the more complicated it gets.

   19. CWChris Williamson32:13

       What's this wonderful interplay between genetic predisposition and then environmental reinforcement, I suppose-

   20. AMDr Anna Machin32:23

       Yeah.

   21. CWChris Williamson32:23

       ... especially given that the genes that you are given, presuming that you live in the household with your biological parents that gave you the gene, the genetic material that you're made from, they have likely, on average, the traits that you have inherited genetically, but they manifest behaviorally.

   22. AMDr Anna Machin32:42

       Yeah.

   23. CWChris Williamson32:42

       So, if you have the genes for anxiety, you tend to lean-

   24. AMDr Anna Machin32:46

       Yeah.

   25. CWChris Williamson32:46

       ... toward anxiety in terms of your genetic predisposition, you're going to grow up in a household that is likely to behaviorally be more anxious. So, you end up with this sort of very strange ever-increasing-

   26. AMDr Anna Machin32:57

       Yeah, and it, but it's als- yeah, and it's why, it's why problems cross generations. Partly because of that, partly because of that. Though obviously, we have to remember that depending on recessive dominant genes, fact you're anx- anxious doesn't mean necessarily that that expressed itself in your, in your parents. But, um, that's why things cross generations, because if you live in an abusive h- household as a child and you, and you build this architecture in your brain that's not particularly healthy and not particularly helpful, then that is, that is the brain that's gonna go on to raise your children.

   27. CWChris Williamson33:27

       Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

   28. AMDr Anna Machin33:28

       And you're gonna be there. You don't have the skills because your parents didn't have the skills. That is imprinted in your brain. Your head simply don't have the brain architecture, and then you're gonna pass it on. So, and that's why a lot of people in this field work very hard to break, break that cross-generational-

   29. CWChris Williamson33:43

       Hmm.

   30. AMDr Anna Machin33:44

       ... uh, problem, because, and intervene.
8. 36:26 – 43:24

   Why Do Men & Women Cheat?

   1. AMDr Anna Machin36:26

   2. CWChris Williamson36:26

      Getting back to romantic relationships, cheating.

   3. AMDr Anna Machin36:29

      Mm-hmm. Yeah.

   4. CWChris Williamson36:30

      Why- why do men cheat? What- what's in it for them?

   5. AMDr Anna Machin36:36

      Um-Well, why do men and women cheat? Same reason. Um, they cheat because it ultimately, it's about passing your genes down the generations. So, human males are in this position where we're in, in most societies, we're in like a monogamous, um, structure, and from a sort of genetic reproductive success point of view, that's quite constricting because, you know, you just have this one female and you're going to put everything into them and they are going to bring, you know, birth your baby, and that's how your genes are gonna get down the generation. But, you know, if you're looking at a chimpanzee male, he's there spreading it everywhere. You know, he's gonna have a hell of- much higher reproductive success than you are because he's in a multi-male, multi-female group and he can just, you know, have sex multiple times a day and be the father to multiple, multiple babies at the same time. And so really, that's kind of the way monogamous species deal with that problem is that they have affairs. Uh, and we see it even in the most monogamous... You know, I used to work with a, with a professor at UCL who studied gibbons, which is the monogamous primate, and he was like, "No, they're not." They are literally always sneaking away behind rocks to, you know, have sex with other, other, you know, partners who aren't, who aren't a monogamous pair, because that's, from an evolutionary point of view, that's how you're gonna increase your reproductive success. Particularly if you're a male because literally sperm is not worth anything and if you're pretty damn sure that that baby can be raised without your input, great. You've got, you've got some genes there going down another family tree, um, as well as the ones that are in your, in your committed relationship. For women, it's slightly different and for women, the reason they do it, because obviously once they're pregnant, they're pregnant, is to get better genes. It's just, you know, that's, that's the evolutionary drive to be unfaithful, is because you've obviously got this wonderful investing male here who's probably gonna be a great dad, he's gonna protect, provide, be nurturing, do all those wonderful, wonderful things. But hey, maybe his genes aren't so great. Um, so I'm actually gonna go and have an affair over here with this person who's really good-looking and I'm gonna become pregnant with him, and you know, in an ideal world he d- you know, investing guy doesn't find out and they get the best of both worlds. I get some really cracking genes, but I also get somebody who's gonna commit and raise this child alongside me. So, from an evolutionary point of view, being unfaithful makes perfect sense because ultimately your job on this earth, from an evolution spot, is to increase, maximize your reproductive success as far as you can.

   6. CWChris Williamson39:04

      What it sounds like we're straying toward here is dual mating hypothesis versus mate switching. What... I know that this has kind of been up in the air, it was one way then it was the other way and now maybe it's going back another way. What's the current state of the literature? Have you got any idea where we're at? Whether dual mating or mate switching is currently in ascendancy?

   7. AMDr Anna Machin39:25

      I don't think we're... 'Cause you get two very strong st- sort of schools of thought, really. I mean, I- I'm definitely, I think... Maybe because I come from a primate behavioral background, I'm very much a dual mating person, I think. I think it, you will, I don't think we've come down on either side, and it might be that they're both right and it's a mixed methodology and it, it depends on the individual.

   8. CWChris Williamson39:47

      Mm.

   9. AMDr Anna Machin39:47

      Um, because you will observe both in humans. So I don't think necessarily there's one answer or there's another answer, but ultimately it's what works in your circumstances and in your environment at that time, with the basis of your drive is to maximize your reproductive success. So how are you gonna do that?

   10. CWChris Williamson40:02

       Does that mean that women, on average, tend to have affairs with men that are better looking...

   11. AMDr Anna Machin40:10

       Yes.

   12. CWChris Williamson40:10

       ...than their current partner?

   13. AMDr Anna Machin40:11

       On average. On average, yes. They tend to go out with men who are, who... So one of the major measures of genetic strength is facial asymmetry. Um, so we are genetically programmed... If we, if our genes were left to, you know, express themselves in the phenotype in us without any environmental challenges, no stresses, nothing, we would be symmetrical. We're a bilaterally symmetrical being. But when you're in the womb, particularly, and you're developing, um, they get knocked off course because, you know, your mom might be stressed, she might be ill, whatever it might be, so... So, none of us are symmetrical but some people are pretty damn close and those are the people who manage to go through all this environmental turmoil and still come out with s- because the genes were strong, being pretty close to symmetry. And those are the people we tend to find most attractive. And what you will see on average with women is if you look at the facial asymmetry of their partner and you look at the facial asymmetry of the person they had the affair with, the person they had the affair with is more attractive, objectively.

   14. CWChris Williamson41:14

       Mm-hmm.

   15. AMDr Anna Machin41:14

       Um, it doesn't mean that actually that person with the lovely close to symmetry face is actually the better mate 'cause they're probably not. If we look at who people end up with, they tend to end up with people not who are extremely close to symmetry. They tend to send up with people who are a little bit more average, um, because that tends to go alongside other things, particularly for men, things like provision and protection and all that sort of thing. But yeah, if you look at, if you look at it on average, that's what women tend to do.

   16. CWChris Williamson41:40

       What about the role of cheating among men given that we need to account for drops in testosterone, as we learned last time.

   17. AMDr Anna Machin41:49

       Mm-hmm.

   18. CWChris Williamson41:49

       Uh, when they get into a committed relationship, when they get married and then especially when they have children.

   19. AMDr Anna Machin41:55

       Yes.

   20. CWChris Williamson41:55

       So, you know, there is a sort of dad to dad pipeline, um, that goes on from a testosterone perspective.

   21. AMDr Anna Machin42:04

       Mm.

   22. CWChris Williamson42:04

       And that is going to reduce a desire for sexual variety. I'm going to guess not entirely, uh, and not in all men int- i- probably, but I'm gonna guess that, um, the sort of classic male lothario that you may use an example of a single guy to then port across onto men that are m- married with kids, uh...

   23. AMDr Anna Machin42:27

       Mm-hmm.

   24. CWChris Williamson42:27

       You're, you're not quite talking about two different species but you're talking about a, a little sort of splinter faction...

   25. AMDr Anna Machin42:33

       Yeah.

   26. CWChris Williamson42:33

       ...uh, awa- away from the, the original one.

   27. AMDr Anna Machin42:37

       Yeah. You are, absolutely. Um, and, but I think we need to be aware that p- cheat, whilst the evolutionary drive to cheat is...... is based in testosterone, and testosterone, yes, is the hormone of mate selection. That's what it's there for. It's there to help you select a mate and it's there to help you compete for a mate. Um, there are other things that come into whether or not a man is going to cheat or not. One of those, for example, is his upbringing. So, was he brought up in a, in a culture or in a family where cheating was something that men did? Did it, was his father faithful? If your father's unfaithful, you are more likely to be unfaithful. So it's also to do with those cultural messages we get, and also your upbringing in terms of... So it's not just testosterone that will drive you to have an affair. Uh, it, there are many other things that come into it as well.

9. 43:24 – 54:40

   Is Our Mating Ideology Working?

   1. CWChris Williamson43:24

      I had a fascinating conversation a couple of months ago talking about, uh, mating ideologies over time.

   2. AMDr Anna Machin43:31

      Hmm.

   3. CWChris Williamson43:31

      And, um, it was just so, uh, Mads Laursen, he's from some Finnish, Swedish, Scandi place, uh, and he was just so, so great. And that really got me thinking about the biological and cultural mismatch when it comes to our sort of mating preferences-

   4. AMDr Anna Machin43:52

      Hmm.

   5. CWChris Williamson43:52

      ... that we have this sexual redistribution policy, which is one man with one woman, and that means that kind of, uh, y- in the best scenario, everybody gets somebody. And that's good because it means that you have a populous which is gonna continue to reproduce, and you're not going to have a ton of upset, disgruntled men running around pushing over cars and setting fire to houses, and doing stuff like that. Uh, and yet, it seems like, at best, humans are serial monogamists-

   6. AMDr Anna Machin44:21

      Hmm. Mm-hmm.

   7. CWChris Williamson44:21

      ... serially monogamous, uh, and at, at worst, are closer to chimps and bonobos and, and-

   8. AMDr Anna Machin44:29

      Yeah.

   9. CWChris Williamson44:29

      ... gibbons.

   10. AMDr Anna Machin44:30

       Yeah. No, absolutely, and this is the problem. I mean, I write a whole chapter on it in th- in my book, um, under the title Exclusive, because we have this ight. There are many, particularly in the West, we, yes, we have this monogamous model in society, where there's one man or one woman, or two people, to the exclusion of everybody else. Now, humans are, aren't actually as, in fact, no species is, purely monogamous. We're just not. Um, what monogamy is, is, to a large part, a societal construct that's been placed upon our biological behavior, in a way to try and constrain it. Because if we all acted like chimps and we all just followed our biological drive and did whatever we wanted to do, it would be chaos. And what a structured society, a civil society does not want is chaos. What we want is to be predictable. We want all the masses to be predictable so that the people in power can work out what you're gonna do next. And so one of the ways you can do that is you can put rules around, um, relationships, and you can formalize them with marriage, and you can, you know, say, lots of legal frameworks, so you, for example, you can't split up without going through the courts properly, because we all have to keep control of everybody's reproductive relationships. So w- we can predict what's going on and everybody stays within their box, essentially. And that's what monogamy is in most societies, is it's just been placed upon us by society. Because a- by... Because as you say, at least, you know, uh, the rate of monogamy, of, sorry, um, being unfaithful is, is high, because actually, that's more of our biological drive, is to do that. And this is really inter- I spoke to a lot of polyamorists for my book.

   11. CWChris Williamson46:11

       Mm-hmm.

   12. AMDr Anna Machin46:12

       And polyamory gets a bad name. Uh, if you ask a lot of people about what they think of polyamory, they see it as immoral, they see it as people who are, you know, se- have massive sex drives and, um, can't control their sexual urges, and all this sort of stuff, um, and it's corrupting. And actually, if you speak to them, they say, "Well, actually, what we're doing is we are acknowledging, it's very immoral because we are acknowledging what humans do." And what humans do is they have, quite often, more than one romantic relationship at once. So what we are saying is, "We're gonna acknowledge that, we're going to say, um, that this happens, we're gonna be open about it, we're not gonna creep around behind people's backs, we're gonna put in place rules about being respectful of each other, and rules about how we balance everybody's needs in this particular complex of relationships, and we're gonna have open communication so that everybody knows where they stand." And so, in a way, what they're saying is actually, "We are reflecting what, for a lot of people, is the natural state."

   13. CWChris Williamson47:09

       Mm.

   14. AMDr Anna Machin47:10

       And that is, that is actually how we should behave.

   15. CWChris Williamson47:12

       Th- they've-

   16. AMDr Anna Machin47:12

       And so it's really interesting.

   17. CWChris Williamson47:14

       They've created, like, paleo-relationships.

   18. AMDr Anna Machin47:17

       Yeah, in a way. Yeah, they have. They've sort of said, "This is actually how most people behave. But most people pretend it's not happening, and actually cause huge pain because they lie about it." Um, and it's really interesting, and actually, I think particularly this, this younger generation are much more open about that. You know, there's a l- this consensual non-monogamy, um, idea about the fact that actually, uh, a lot of people don't find being monogamous particularly natural, and they are fighting against, uh, their urge, their biological urge, to remain within this quite constrained societal structure. And therefore, actually, I'm, I'm gonna be open about that, I'm gonna find somebody else who's happy with that, and, and be with them and be with other people. Uh, and I think it's interesting. I mean, polyamory isn't for everybody. Obviously, it's, it, it rears its head in terms of jealousy, um, and jealousy is something that comes from the fact that humans do have to couple up for a period of time after you've had a child just to make sure that child survives. And that's where jealousy comes from. But, um, for some people, it works really, really well.

   19. CWChris Williamson48:22

       What about the opposite of that, the aromantics?

   20. AMDr Anna Machin48:26

       Hmm. Aromantics, I, are a really interesting group of people who have had a really bad press and are quite difficult to reach. Um, I was really lucky to speak to a few for my book. Um, aromantic people, the view that people have on them is that they are very cold, because they assume that when you say someone's aromantic, they don't experience any sort of love. And actually, they do, they just don't experience romantic love. So they experience platonic love very much so. They have love for family, love for friends, love for community, love for their pets, love for God, whatever it might be. They just do not experience romantic love. And in most cases, they're also asexual, so they do not feel sexual attraction. Um, and...They are a fascinating group of people. We don't ha- we haven't done a lot of what we would call invasive scientific research in terms of, um, in terms of genetics or in terms of scanning as yet on that particular population, because they are very sensitive to being looked at in that way, because they don't, they're- they're nervous about how the results would be seen. But having spoken to them, it shows how obsessed we are with romantic love, and we place it at the pinnacle, and we really think it's the be all and end all of everything. So, somebody could have the most loving relationships in their lives, like a, you know, a social network that's overflowing with love. But if you don't have romantic love, then you're a bit weird, and that's how they're seen. They're seen as a bit weird. And it's bizarre, because they have things called platonic life partnerships, which is, they will build a life with somebody, they will even have children with somebody, but it's based on platonic rather than romantic love. And- and for me, it's very powerful, because they tell us two things. First of all, how- how imbued our society is with romantic love, how difficult it is to live in a world which references romantic love so often when you don't feel it. That's hard. That's very exclusionary. And secondly, the fact that we think there's a hierarchy of love, with romantic love at the top of it, and that's the most effective love, that's the most powerful love, that's the one which is the best for your health and the best for your longevity and the best for everything else. And actually, it's not. That's just some cultural, you know, rubbish we've been told and which we've swallowed. Um, actually, the, it's, it, luck- there is no hierarchy, it's flat, and what we need to embrace as humans is how lucky we are to be able to love in so many different ways. You know, we have-

   21. CWChris Williamson50:42

       Mm.

   22. AMDr Anna Machin50:42

       ... so many different ways.

   23. CWChris Williamson50:43

       You did mention that there's kind of a hierarchy neurochemically, uh, between sexual relationships and father/child, mother/child, that those seem to be the most intense, at least when it comes to sort of what our body is providing us, or at least what our brain is providing us with. So, I don't know, maybe that, maybe that does seem to make sense a little bit, that you would look at a- a friendship as a second-class type of love.

   24. AMDr Anna Machin51:11

       But it's actually, it's, it, in terms of when we look at things like, it- it's very hard to compare people's feelings of love. So you would say to somebody, "What's the most powerful love you've experienced?" And they will say, "Yeah, with my child," for example. But then you'll say to somebody else who hasn't got children, you know, "What's the most powerful love you've experienced?" They'll say, "With my God." Now, it's very hard to know whether those two things are anywhere the same or they're in the same ballpark. When we look at, and you can't really measure love from, like, the intensity on a scanner screen. It doesn't work like that. It's not like a dose response. Um, and you can get just as big a hit of beta endorphin, for example, from having a really good, I don't know, dance with your friends as you can from- from hugging your baby or whatever. So it's very hard to say that one is more powerful than the other. The only argument you would have for them being more- more important is because they are the reproductive ones. They are the ones that- that evolution says maybe are the more important, because those are the ones that are directly gonna pass genes down the generations, from reproduction and from raising your children. But when we look at things like health benefits, um, in terms of their in- their effect upon your longevity, upon your life satisfaction, it really doesn't matter what sort of love you have for those- for those particular measures. You know, we do know that the relationships you have are the biggest factor in your mental and physical health, your longevity, uh, and your survival. Absolutely. But what sort of love that is doesn't seem to matter that much.

   25. CWChris Williamson52:41

       Mm. Going back to the non-monogamy thing, sort of this, uh, battle that we have culturally and biologically, what's a beta marriage? I'd never heard of this before.

   26. AMDr Anna Machin52:53

       (laughs) It's like a beta test. So, a beta marriage, this was an idea that- that's kinda comes, rears its head every now and then, and it's to do with the fact that we never kind of expected to live this long, you know? So the idea that you would have a marriage and it would last 60 years, people are like, "Ooh, that sounds..." So, you can have things called beta marriages, which is, they're kind of looked at in two ways. Either they're like a practice marriage, so like a beta test. So you're gonna run this marriage, and probably you'll restrict it for like five years, ten years, and then at the end of it, you can both walk away. There's no formal divorce. It's like a, it's like an, you know, yeah, a limited contract, you know. Um, and then you'll both walk away, and maybe you've learnt something about yourself, or you've learnt something about them, or you might renew it for another ten years. Who knows? So, so some people see it as like a test. Other people see it just as, all marriages should have break clauses, like a lease. And like after five years, you should be able to go, "No, it's not working. Let's just leave with what we came with. No expensive divorce. I'm off." And that's a beta marriage.

   27. CWChris Williamson53:57

       (laughs)

   28. AMDr Anna Machin53:58

       Um, it still sounds a little bit cold and objective to me, um, to be honest, 'cause, you know, the whole love is a neurochemical cocktail of passion and amazingness, and- and you don't just suddenly switch that off one day and go, "Oh, it's absolutely fine, I'm just going to cut that out."

   29. CWChris Williamson54:15

       It's the same...

   30. AMDr Anna Machin54:15

       Um, but yeah, every now and then, you know, it rears its head as an idea.
10. 54:40 – 1:01:26

    Balancing Rationality With Feeling Love

    1. CWChris Williamson54:40

       talk to me, you know, you mentioned with, uh, appropriate scientific rigor and restraint and rationality today-

    2. AMDr Anna Machin54:49

       (laughs) Oh, God.

    3. CWChris Williamson54:49

       ... um, kind of what our ancestral setup for mating was, about how love actually appears in the human system. But phenomenologically, it- it doesn't feel like any of that's happening, right? It's this, you're carried away by this wonderful roller coaster of things that-

    4. AMDr Anna Machin55:07

       Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

    5. CWChris Williamson55:08

       ... you're- you're- you're- you're a mother, you've, at least two kids maybe but you've probably got more now.

    6. AMDr Anna Machin55:12

       Mm-hmm, yep.

    7. CWChris Williamson55:13

       Uh, how do you, as someone who, uh, you know, is swimming through the world of love at the moment, how have you learned to blend some of the insights of the more kind of rational, cognitive, sterile, uh, learnings about love with what it means to be a human and to be in love and to feel it and- and to navigate it?

    8. AMDr Anna Machin55:37

       I think because, actually the more I- 'cause people ask me quite often, "Because you study love, has it kinda lost its magic for you?" Because you can kinda go, "Okay, I know exactly what's happening in your brain."

    9. CWChris Williamson55:45

       You don't mean to spike that.

    10. AMDr Anna Machin55:45

        First of all, I don't know exactly what's happening in your brain. Yeah, exactly. I mean, first of all, I don't. We probably know like 10% of what's going on, so first of all, I don't. Secondly, love is hugely complicated. I mean, really, really, really, really complicated. Highly multifactorial, so many different things that feed into it, highly individual. Like really individual. How I feel when I'm in love, how you feel when you're in love, probably not the same, you know, because there's so many things that factor into it. Um, and the more I study love, the more in awe I have of it because it literally does infiltrate every fiber of your being and come into every aspect of your daily life, even if you're not consciously thinking about it. You know, you all, you probably think about your family, you think about your friends, you do things for your family, you do things for your friends, they do things for you, you're cooperating with people all day long. You know, you're thinking ahead how to make somebody happy, you're planning things for the future, whatever it might be, and it- it- it infiltrates every aspect of our media, every aspect of our religions are based on love, you know, our politics, everything includes love. And so for me, it's a hugely awe-inspiring phenomenon, and we are so lucky to experience it in the fulsome way that we do-

    11. CWChris Williamson56:55

        Mm-hmm.

    12. AMDr Anna Machin56:55

        ... and in the spread of different ways that we do. And the fact that we have all this art and this literature and all this, these stories around love, we do that because it's so hard to put into words how amazing it is, so difficult to- to fully say what it... So I can reduce it to chemicals for you and tell you which genes are involved and show you the brain activation and say duh-duh... Uh, but that's not it. That's just some objective measures of something which is nebulous, constantly changing, highly individual. So you know, people come to my talks, I think, sometimes, maybe they're a little bit lost because of love, 'cause love in the, in this century is quite difficult, particularly if you're young, and they think I'm gonna give them a formula of, "Okay, if you do this and you do this and you do this, then this is gonna happen and it's all gonna be fine." No idea. There will never be a formula for love because, uh, while we can objectively measure bits of it, there's this massive bit, mainly subjective, don't know anything about it, um, and we probably won't ever touch it because it's impossible to measure. And that shows to me how phenomenal it is and how lucky we are to have it. So, I actually don't get bored of it. The more I experience it, the more I am inspired by it, and I genuinely, genuinely do think it's- it's absolutely possibly the cornerstone of being human or at least one of the very important ones, because we literally wouldn't survive, our culture wouldn't be the same without it, we wouldn't be around without it. The relationships we build would be devoid. You know, I- I mean, it's just, to me it's- it is actually everything, and that's kinda how I conclude the book. You know, I- I basically say, "What is love?" Well, love is actually everything. Everything. If you don't have it, you live very much half a life. Definitely.

    13. CWChris Williamson58:41

        Talk to me about the dark side of love, how it can be used as a control.

    14. AMDr Anna Machin58:46

        Mm-hmm. Yeah, so the problem with love, uh, because we need it so viscerally and because it imbues every fiber in your body, that need, that absolute drive to find it, to keep it means that it can be used against you. Um, and we are, w- we talked about animal love at the start. The only thing that definitely separates us from the animals is that we are the only creature that uses love to manipulate. So the fact that somebody needs our love, we will use to make them do stuff for us.

    15. CWChris Williamson59:18

        Mm-hmm.

    16. AMDr Anna Machin59:18

        Now, we all do that. We all probably at some point have said, "If you loved me, you'd make me a cup of tea," or, "If you loved me, you'd let..."

    17. CWChris Williamson59:25

        (laughs) .

    18. AMDr Anna Machin59:25

        "If you loved me, you'd let me choose the color of the new sofa," or whatever it might be. We have all done it, but there are really serious extremes of that. And because, again, things like beta-endorphin is addictive, unfortunately, some people seem to be more susceptible to that- that- that level of addiction, find it much, much harder to break. So yeah, it- it can be used to, you know, at the- at the minor- minor end, there's obviously jealousy and jealousy evolved as an emotion for the same reason as all emotions, it's there to aid our survival, and when kept under control, it is important because it- it draws your attention to threats to your survival-critical relationships. And- and then you can act because you felt jealous and you can do something. But obviously in extreme cases, it's very dangerous. Um, you know, people use love to coerce, to manipulate, to abuse, and I think we don't talk about that enough. We don't talk about this dark side of it. Most human adaptations of which love is one have... are never 100% beneficial. There's always a downside and for love, that downside is the fact that we use it in that way. Um, and I, there have been studies done by other people looking at abusive relationships and the role for love in abusive relationships. I personally have studied it in men and men who are victims of domestic violence or domestic abuse. And you know, people always say, uh, "Oh, well, there can't be love there because that's not love." But if you speak to the people who are within these relationships, they very definitely think there's love there. Um, and quite often they will stay for love either because they see glimmers of love in that person and they love that person so much or they think their love can rescue that person. "I can change them. I can be the person who changes them. They will be different because I love them so much." Um, and I don't think we talk about that enough because ultimately love evolved as a form of control. It's evolution's way of controlling us to make sure we reproduce and do this really difficult thing. But it's kind of gone a- a long way the other way and- and yeah, we can use it to control other people, and that's not a nice side of it,

11. 1:01:26 – 1:06:29

    Love in Abusive Relationships

    1. AMDr Anna Machin1:01:26

       I'm afraid.

    2. CWChris Williamson1:01:27

       That's a very unique insight. What do...... male victims of domestic violence or abuse say about love? What- what's the sort of narrative and the story that they tell you?

    3. AMDr Anna Machin1:01:42

       It's that, it's that story. Sometimes it's that they love, they love the person so much they think they can change them, they think they can rescue them. So it's, so for some people, it's kind of like a, not a knight in shining armor sort of thing, but they do feel that this person is, is damaged in some way and I can rescue them. Sometimes they will literally talk about love being blind. And they will, a lot of them had come out of their relationships when I'd spoken to them. They, they'd managed to end the relationships. And they would look back and go, "I, I just can't believe I didn't see it." So there was like one guy who said, who, he, he himself was violently abused, but this, his wife would also, for example, violently abuse her parents. So, they'd be having a, having dinner and suddenly she'd pour a co- a pot of hot coffee over the mother's head and drag her out of the door by her hair. And he would just sit there.

    4. CWChris Williamson1:02:25

       Wow.

    5. AMDr Anna Machin1:02:26

       And he was like, "Wow. I mean, did I not think at the time? That's really not right." But it, so they will talk about love being blind and, and that they're just so overwhelmed by it that they don't see this thing in front of them. And sometimes, it's not love for the partner that keeps, it's love for the children. Unfortunately, we live in a, a court system here in the UK where it's still very biased towards mothers and mothers getting children in, in custody battles. And so a lot of them will stay because if they leave, they are really worried the kids will end up with the mum. A, they won't be able to see the kids because the mum will use them as a weapon. And B, the mum might start abusing the kids. Um, so a lot of them will stay for that reason as well.

    6. CWChris Williamson1:03:09

       That's so interesting. God, what a, what a wild ... I'd never even thought about the, the likelihood of someone who is a, um, abuser in the home being abuser outside of the home as well.

    7. AMDr Anna Machin1:03:25

       Mm.

    8. CWChris Williamson1:03:26

       There's this, I mean, for anyone who wants to read The Housemaid, uh, the book, uh, skip forward by about 90 seconds. But there's a really interesting story in this. So, um, this woman is recruited to become a housemaid for a rich family. The wife of the family is a total bitch throughout the entire time, and the child is a total bitch throughout the entire time. Uh, she ends up being locked in the upstairs attic by the husband. The housemaid gets locked in the attic-

    9. AMDr Anna Machin1:03:59

       Hm.

    10. CWChris Williamson1:03:59

        ... by the husband. What it turns out is that the husband was doing this to the wife. The wife then found a attractive, uh, s- supplanter of her basically, someone who could come in and take her role, uh, and that would liberate her and the daughter because this husband was super, super smart and whatever, and it's this sort of weird generational trauma thing.

    11. AMDr Anna Machin1:04:19

        Mm.

    12. CWChris Williamson1:04:19

        And then at the end of the book, the housemaid outsmarts the guy, causes him to do a te- like makes him pull his own teeth out, makes him lie with a t- a big stack of books on his, uh, testicles for hours and hours, and, uh, watches him on CCTV. And then at the funeral, uh, she sees the mother, and obviously the son had pulled his teeth out, he'd done all of these things.

    13. AMDr Anna Machin1:04:44

        Mm.

    14. CWChris Williamson1:04:44

        And she sees the mother of the son, of the, the, the, the husband, uh, and the mother basically says, "Good to see that you finally disciplined him. I've been trying to do that since childhood."

    15. AMDr Anna Machin1:04:55

        Wow.

    16. CWChris Williamson1:04:56

        Yep.

    17. AMDr Anna Machin1:04:57

        Yeah.

    18. CWChris Williamson1:04:57

        So she'd made him pull his teeth out during school when he was a child, so just-

    19. AMDr Anna Machin1:05:01

        Oh my God.

    20. CWChris Williamson1:05:02

        Th- and that totally made me think. I mean, it's such a good twist.

    21. AMDr Anna Machin1:05:04

        Yeah.

    22. CWChris Williamson1:05:05

        Even just describing it in 90 seconds-

    23. AMDr Anna Machin1:05:06

        Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

    24. CWChris Williamson1:05:07

        ... it's such a great twist. Um, so just a really lovely, uh, explainer of that lineage. You know, talking about how hurt people hurt people, this sort of pan-generational trauma thing that gets passed down, its patterns, its genetic predisposition. Uh, but I, I'd never considered it that, yeah, you'd have, you know, a, a, an abusive partner. Why would they, why would that stop? You know, it's gonna happen to the dog.

    25. AMDr Anna Machin1:05:30

        Yeah. Yeah.

    26. CWChris Williamson1:05:31

        It's gonna happen to the friends. It's gonna be emotionally manipulative-

    27. AMDr Anna Machin1:05:34

        Yeah.

    28. CWChris Williamson1:05:34

        ... to the supermarket worker.

    29. AMDr Anna Machin1:05:36

        Yeah.

    30. CWChris Williamson1:05:36

        To the, the people that they're in the office with.
12. 1:06:29 – 1:13:43

    Romantic Relationships Vs Best Friends

    1. CWChris Williamson1:06:29

       Talk to me, what about this tension between female relationships and their romantic relationships? The sort of female-female thing, and whether or not romantic love is the most important one in that scenario?

    2. AMDr Anna Machin1:06:41

       Mm. Yeah, it's really interesting, that. One of the first studies I did when I went to Oxford, um, was to look at, compare romantic relationships and best friendships. And one of the things we found when we looked at women was that they are more emotionally intimate with their best, female best friends than they are with their romantic partner. And that was really quite surprising because you're like, wow, 'cause you think, you think of like the most emotionally intimate relationship being the romantic relationship maybe. And these women were like, "No, absolutely not." You know, th- I keep my, my deepest, darkest emotional vulnerabilities, uh, for my, for my friends, my female best friends. And that's really interesting, and I think what we're seeing with female best friendship is actually there's quite a revolution going on at the moment, and it has been for maybe the last 10, 20 years, in terms of how important that relationship is in women's lives. What, when we're looking at like demographic data, more women are remaining single-And more women are not, are choosing or aren't having children. And when you, that's your, your life pattern, then your survival critical relationships become something else. And for most women, they become their friends. And, and again, I talk about it a lot in the book, and I've done quite a lot of research on it, because it's really fascinating. Because, it's only really happened in the last 10, 20 years because women can control their contraception, and also women don't have to now marry to be independent. You know, you go back to the-

    3. CWChris Williamson1:08:08

       Financially liberated on them-

    4. AMDr Anna Machin1:08:09

       Exactly.

    5. CWChris Williamson1:08:10

       ... on their own.

    6. AMDr Anna Machin1:08:10

       Exactly. So they're on their own. They don't need to marry for support, for financial support, for protection, and they d- certainly don't need to have children if they don't want them. And so we're seeing women building these whole chosen families now of their friendships, and their friendships literally being their survival critical little bubble, and that's, those are the people they rely on. And as I said earlier, you know, they, they, those relationships bring just as much benefit in terms of love as, as a romantic relationship, or a child-parent relationship, from an objective point of view. So it's really interesting that, that we are seeing this like revolution of women choosing their friends as their pre- as their premier relationship in their life.

    7. CWChris Williamson1:08:50

       Mm. Why is it the case that women show more, um, affection, or more love toward their friends, and i- it seems like guys don't? Is that a- is that vestigial alloparenting stuff?

    8. AMDr Anna Machin1:09:02

       No, it's not. I think it's very, very cultural, to be honest. Um, as I said, you know, if you go to other countries, um, and you look at male-male friendships, they're not like ours. I think we are, we do bring up little boys to be quite restrained in their friendships. You know, um, whilst I think we've moved on a bit where, you know, male, men might hug each other now, they certainly still very rarely will you see male friends kiss each other, you won't see male friends walking down the street arm in arm. You know, you won't see overt displays of affection, which you will see between women friends. But you go to other countries, and you will see that.

    9. CWChris Williamson1:09:39

       Mm. Yeah.

    10. AMDr Anna Machin1:09:39

        So I think a lot of it is cultural, actually, and it's not really innate necessarily.

    11. CWChris Williamson1:09:46

        Female friendships are made in the bathroom trip together. That's-

    12. AMDr Anna Machin1:09:49

        Well they are. And women, as I said-

    13. CWChris Williamson1:09:51

        ... like ground zero.

    14. AMDr Anna Machin1:09:51

        ... and it's that e- and it's that emotional vulnerability, because one of the best ways to get close to someone is to be completely emotionally vulnerable with them. Um, and that's what we, you know, that's what counselors or therapists will teach people who are struggling, is be emotionally vulnerable. Um, and because women do that with each other, it's a really, really tight bond. You know, you literally, I spoke to a lot of women, um, for one of my studies, and I quote some of them in the book, about, about their friendships, and they will literally say, "They have seen me at my worst times, they have seen me at my best times, and they are still here, and they will always be here. They don't judge me." You know, and we, and, and, you know, whereas my family do, for example. Um, and I know that I can literally be anything, do anything, and they will be there for me.

    15. CWChris Williamson1:10:35

        Do you think there's something that men can learn from women when it comes to bonding and sort of friendship love in that case?

    16. AMDr Anna Machin1:10:45

        I do think, and I think it has improved, but I do think men need to be more able to talk about emotional vulnerabilities and concerns and anxieties. Because I think that's something that's still quite hard for a lot of men to do. Um, and we all have those. Just 'cause you're male doesn't mean that those don't affect you. They do. And I think if we can come to a point where it's, it is normal for men to do that, and manage to do it without, you know, it only taking two minutes and then everyone making a joke out of it, which is generally what seems to happen-

    17. CWChris Williamson1:11:20

        Mm.

    18. AMDr Anna Machin1:11:20

        ... I think that that's very, very healthy. Because, you know, men go through a lot of difficult life transitions, as women do, but I think they are taught to suck it up. You know, just suck it up, move on, particularly when it's something like fatherhood or it's something like, you know, getting a partner. You, you are the rock of that relationship. You've got to be the one that's supporting and protecting and all that kind of thing. And you've got to be immune to everything that's going on around you. Well, of course you're not. Of course you're not. I mean, I've followed enough fathers now to know how incredibly emotionally, practically, psychologically difficult it is. That transition is tough. Men take longer to transition to be fathers than women do to be mothers.

    19. CWChris Williamson1:12:00

        Mm.

    20. AMDr Anna Machin1:12:01

        And I think there's a reason for that.

    21. CWChris Williamson1:12:03

        I read a study, uh, probably about a year ago now, saying that, on average, men say "I love you" first. And it's quite common for men to say "I love you" first. And I thought, well first off, I, I lo- I thought back to my relationships, and I think it was usually me as well, almost always me actually, I think-

    22. AMDr Anna Machin1:12:23

        Mm-hmm.

    23. CWChris Williamson1:12:23

        ... that said that first. Uh, and I was like, okay, well that's, that's interesting. Why might that be the case? And I thought about, you know, the only person that I've had direct experience of, which was me. And I think a part of it is feeling like you should lead in one way.

    24. AMDr Anna Machin1:12:39

        Mm.

    25. CWChris Williamson1:12:39

        I'm supposed to sort of forge for- this feels like the brave thing to do. You kind of know, both of you know already.

    26. AMDr Anna Machin1:12:45

        Yeah.

    27. CWChris Williamson1:12:46

        But it's kind of on you to say it properly. Uh, one ex-girlfriend, it slipped out when she was drunk, and then-

    28. AMDr Anna Machin1:12:52

        (laughs) .

    29. CWChris Williamson1:12:53

        ... a couple of weeks later I was like, "Right, okay, well I guess we, you know, we both need to say this now." Um, but then I dug a little bit deeper (laughs) into, uh, what the authors said, and it seems like (laughs) this data is quite heavily skewed by, uh, couples who haven't yet had sex.

    30. AMDr Anna Machin1:13:11

        Oh really? Ah.
13. 1:13:43 – 1:19:29

    The Pitfalls of Evolutionary Psychology

    1. AMDr Anna Machin1:13:43

    2. CWChris Williamson1:13:43

       I've had this, um, idea in my mind for a little while, and you're the- the person I'm gonna try and work it out to, uh, uh, for the first time. So... (smacks lips) I've fallen in love with evolutionary psychology over the last sort of four years or so, and I think it's as close to a complete vision of how human mating works that we have.

    3. AMDr Anna Machin1:14:05

       Mm-hmm.

    4. CWChris Williamson1:14:05

       It's, um, impressively survived the replication crisis. I think it's- it and behavioral genetics, the two most unspeakable, uh, of the- the psychological disciplines-

    5. AMDr Anna Machin1:14:17

       (laughs)

    6. CWChris Williamson1:14:17

       ... have actually managed to survive quite well, which probably says something. Uh, and also, you know, the manosphere, by whatever term you want to use there, uh, I'm tangential to it, although I've never- n- never been a part of it. Um, but there was, uh, increasingly... And this might be because I've- I've been doing a lot of therapy and sort of emotional work over the last year or so, been... just sort of seeing a few holes. A one particularly large hole, I think, that EP in particular misses, and that kind of the manosphere does as well, given that it's-

    7. AMDr Anna Machin1:14:45

       Mm-hmm.

    8. CWChris Williamson1:14:45

       ... it's downstream from it. And, you know, when we're talking mating from a- an EP perspective, we're talking mate value, we're talking resource provisioning, we're talking fecundity, and- and fertility, and waist-to-hip ratios, we're talking-

    9. AMDr Anna Machin1:14:58

       Yep.

    10. CWChris Williamson1:14:58

        ... the environmental security hypothesis, and what's the economy doing at the moment, and how's that impacting the size of the... All of this stuff, I do understand. And e- yeah, that's maybe the... That's like the nuts and bolts of what mating looks like from a human perspective.

    11. AMDr Anna Machin1:15:16

        Yeah.

    12. CWChris Williamson1:15:16

        But what I, as of yet, haven't heard any EP stuff really dig into is the phenomenological experience of what it is like to be a human going through that.

    13. AMDr Anna Machin1:15:27

        Yes.

    14. CWChris Williamson1:15:27

        What does it feel like to fall in love with someone-

    15. AMDr Anna Machin1:15:32

        Yes.

    16. CWChris Williamson1:15:32

        ... to not be able to think about much other than them, to be worried about them not texting you-

    17. AMDr Anna Machin1:15:37

        Yeah.

    18. CWChris Williamson1:15:37

        "Oh, well, that's my male parental uncertainty getting in," or, "That's the- the- the alpha difference in our mate value." And you think, "Yeah, okay, maybe that is what's going on from a source code level," but it becomes sort of functionally pretty useless when it actually starts to imbue you with the feeling of being that person, of being-

    19. AMDr Anna Machin1:15:58

        Hm.

    20. CWChris Williamson1:15:58

        ... the person that feels the feelings. And, um-

    21. AMDr Anna Machin1:16:01

        Yeah.

    22. CWChris Williamson1:16:01

        ... yeah, I just... Uh, it- it's something that I've been thinking about, uh, recently, and I'd love, you know, I'd love to try and... Uh, and maybe- maybe this can't even be explained academically. Maybe this is the- the place of art, and f- film, and music, and, you know, dance, and- and- and theater, and stuff like that. Maybe that's where we need to go. Maybe poetry is the place that we need to go to try and explain-

Episode duration: 1:35:19