How TikTok Hijacked the Future of Music - Nik Nocturnal

Nik Nocturnal is a musician, YouTuber, and content creator. What is happening in modern metal music? The days of thrash and hair metal dominating culture are long gone, and something entirely new has taken their place. So what defines modern metal, why does it sound so different, and how has the internet changed the music industry forever? Expect to learn how big of an impact TikTok plays in shaping the way modern metal songs are written, which songs are the most influential in modern metal, what Nik thinks of AI-generated music, the most overused trends in metal right now, the tension between making art and making “content” in music, the worst thing about being a YouTube musician and much more… - 0:00 How is TikTok Reshaping Metal Music? 8:24 Is Metal Music Better Than Ever? 17:36 Are We Living in a Golden Age of Metal? 25:39 How Pop Culture Is Reviving Metal 28:28 The Best Metal Songs for Nostalgia 34:55 Is Originality Dead in Music? 41:29 Is There Beef in the Metal Genre? 47:02 Who is Slipknot’s New Drummer? 50:22 How Long Have Kilswitch Engage Been Around? 51:05 Why is Metal Becoming Self-Aware? 54:04 How Hit Songs Are Really Made 58:52 Are Bands Being Engineered for Virality? 01:06:49 The Building Blocks of Nik’s Fast Songwriting 01:16:52 The Hidden Costs of Taking a Break 01:27:06 Why Creators Burn Out So Fast 01:35:51 The Power of the “F*ck You” Pivot 01:40:34 Are Streaming Platforms Exploiting Artists? 01:53:44 How Song DNA is Improving Credits 01:56:16 What’s Next For the Alt Music Scene? 02:08:59 Metal Bands You Shouldn’t Miss 02:16:23 Where to Find Nik - Get access to every episode 10 hours before YouTube by subscribing for free on Spotify - https://spoti.fi/2LSimPn or Apple Podcasts - https://apple.co/2MNqIgw Get my free Reading List of 100 life-changing books here - https://chriswillx.com/books/ Try my productivity energy drink Neutonic here - https://neutonic.com/modernwisdom - Get 160+ lab tests for just $365 and save an extra $25 at https://functionhealth.com/modernwisdom Get 10% discount on all Gymshark products at https://gym.sh/modernwisdom (use code MODERNWISDOM10) Get 15% off your first order of my favourite Non-Alcoholic Brew at https://athleticbrewing.com/modernwisdom Get 35% off your first subscription on the best supplements from Momentous at https://livemomentous.com/modernwisdom - Get in touch in the comments below or head to... Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/chriswillx Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/chriswillx Email: https://chriswillx.com/contact/

Chris WilliamsonhostNik Nocturnalguest

May 9, 20262h 18mWatch on YouTube ↗

EVERY SPOKEN WORD

150 min read · 30,000 words

0:00 – 8:24
How is TikTok Reshaping Metal Music?
1. CWChris Williamson
  How big of an impact do you think TikTok has played in shaping the way that modern metal music sounds now?
2. NNNik Nocturnal
  Ooh. Uh, it, it has a pretty big impact because all the young kids growing up right now on TikTok, and I remember, you know, even when I started YouTube, that was like a newer thing. People were discovering music through YouTube. I discovered a lot of, like, the big bands I listened to growing up through YouTube, and that was, like, unheard of, you know? It was like, no matter what, it was usually all on the radio or, like, I don't know, your brother gave you, like, a cassette or, like, a CD.
3. CWChris Williamson
  Yep.
4. NNNik Nocturnal
  Um, so that was already such a new thing. There was kids discovering music through the internet. I mean, MySpace, YouTube, I mean, like Facebook [laughs] to some capacity after that. So TikTok was kind of just that next generation of people scrolling and whatever they might be doing, doom scrolling or just, you know, I- um, trying to find cooking recipes. And then all of a sudden, you know, if they like music in any capacity or any of ... even if they don't, you know, they hear a sound, and they're like, "This is cool." And a lot of the things with modern metal is there's a lot of good, uh, clip moments usually with modern metal particularly.
5. CWChris Williamson
  Mm.
6. NNNik Nocturnal
  Um, you know, whether it's the breakdown or the other breakdown or the crazy vocal moment-
7. CWChris Williamson
  Mm
8. NNNik Nocturnal
  ... um, or even on the guitar, so crazy guitar moment, maybe a drum moment, right? There's a lot of musicianship and, like, unique, uh, m- attributes that kind of go into that skill in, in terms of, like, metal as a genre.
9. CWChris Williamson
  Mm-hmm.
10. NNNik Nocturnal
  So, like, when you're able to just, like, kind of clip farm some things like that and be like, "Oh, like, here's the best part"-
11. CWChris Williamson
  Yep
12. NNNik Nocturnal
  ... and you instantly get a payoff versus most people, you have to listen to the whole song or, like, you know, in a minute and a half until the breakdown happens. So TikTok, I think, really enforces that, where people will be scrolling, and they'll just hear, like, this crazy noise or breakdown or some dude screaming and doing goblin noises. And it'll be like, "Oh, I want more of this," you know? You instantly get hit with the, the punchline. It's like watching a horror movie and only getting hit with the jump scares.
13. CWChris Williamson
  Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.
14. NNNik Nocturnal
  Like, so it's ... You instantly get kind of intrigued, and I think that has really helped push metal into a bigger, kind of more just normalized audience.
15. CWChris Williamson
  To look at the state of Can You Feel My Heart?
16. NNNik Nocturnal
  Yes.
17. CWChris Williamson
  Look at the state of that Bring Me track, which if anybody listened to that album when it came out, it was good. It was a good song.
18. NNNik Nocturnal
  Mm.
19. CWChris Williamson
  It's one of my favorite songs on the album. It's, it's ... It, it shouldn't be, like, 10 times better known than the next best known Bring Me track.
20. NNNik Nocturnal
  Yeah.
21. CWChris Williamson
  And then just because the internet gets ahold of it and can do ... If, if you make a track that is good to have videos laid over the top of-
22. NNNik Nocturnal
  Mm
23. CWChris Williamson
  ... so that's my ... That's what I'm thinking now. How many bands are thinking almost short form first? Like, these are the three segments of this-
24. NNNik Nocturnal
  Yeah
25. CWChris Williamson
  ... track that work for some reason, and then can we seed a meme early? I kn- I mean, both of us know that-
26. NNNik Nocturnal
  Mm
27. CWChris Williamson
  ... the industry are doing exactly this.
28. NNNik Nocturnal
  Yeah.
29. CWChris Williamson
  Like, they're seeding ... Who was that? Fucking who was that band? Is it Geese or something? Is that the band?
30. NNNik Nocturnal
  Geese?
8:24 – 17:36
Is Metal Music Better Than Ever?
1. CWChris Williamson
  ... so-
2. NNNik Nocturnal
  Yeah
3. CWChris Williamson
  ... you know, pretty much everything has sort of come back around again. What was that video-
4. NNNik Nocturnal
  Mm
5. CWChris Williamson
  ... of the dude drinking Ocean Spray cranberry juice going down the street-
6. NNNik Nocturnal
  Mm
7. CWChris Williamson
  ... and it completely blew up a track that was 40, 50 years old?
8. NNNik Nocturnal
  Mm.
9. CWChris Williamson
  ABBA has had a resurgence like that.
10. NNNik Nocturnal
  Mm.
11. CWChris Williamson
  You know, so many old tracks that have come back around again.
12. NNNik Nocturnal
  Yeah.
13. CWChris Williamson
  Old hip-hop that's come back around again, or pop songs that have come back around again.
14. NNNik Nocturnal
  Mm-hmm.
15. CWChris Williamson
  I haven't seen the same thing happen with metal.
16. NNNik Nocturnal
  Yeah.
17. CWChris Williamson
  I haven't seen people go back to kind of the golden era, twen- 2004 to 2010-
18. NNNik Nocturnal
  Mm
19. CWChris Williamson
  ... which would've kind of been very formative for-
20. NNNik Nocturnal
  Yep
21. CWChris Williamson
  ... our age, and then gone, "Oh my God, dude, have you heard, like, from the first Bullet for My Valentine EP? Have you heard... "
22. NNNik Nocturnal
  [laughs]
23. CWChris Williamson
  "Oh, have you heard, like, this demo-
24. NNNik Nocturnal
  And everyone knows Tears-
25. CWChris Williamson
  ... Atreyu track?" You know?
26. NNNik Nocturnal
  Everyone knows Tears Don't Fall. That's, that's... It doesn't matter how much death metal you listen to and how much you would, you know, say words to people that like that music when you were a young kid in the 2000s, right? Like, it's like you, you know Tears Don't Fall and all those kind of class... I think it's, what has happened is a lot of that music is starting to resurge because during the 10s and the 20s, like, there's been a lot of cool music, a lot of cool metal-
27. CWChris Williamson
  Mm
28. NNNik Nocturnal
  ... and ex- modern metal.
29. CWChris Williamson
  Mm.
30. NNNik Nocturnal
  But there hasn't been as many hits, you know? Like, there's, in the 10s there was a, you know, a big one in, in the metalcore scene was, like, Doomsday Architects. That's a massive one. But the thing is-
17:36 – 25:39
Are We Living in a Golden Age of Metal?
1. CWChris Williamson
  at checkout. What happened in 1988 to 1991 to produce so many humans that in 2006 to 2010 would create fucking insane music for the next two decades?
2. NNNik Nocturnal
  There was so much good music.
3. CWChris Williamson
  What was in the water?
4. NNNik Nocturnal
  I-
5. CWChris Williamson
  But it's-
6. NNNik Nocturnal
  I don't know
7. CWChris Williamson
  ... Attack Attack. These, like these, these... Everybody fucking splinters off into different directions.
8. NNNik Nocturnal
  Yeah.
9. CWChris Williamson
  And they, they all rule. Like Underoath's still going.
10. NNNik Nocturnal
  Yeah.
11. CWChris Williamson
  Fucking decades later.
12. NNNik Nocturnal
  Dude, they're killing it. They sound very good. They sound very good nowadays. And I, I think a lot with all those like legacy bands too, like I'd consider Underoath in that capacity where like they have such a good old catalog as well as their new stuff is sick, where like they're able to embrace their old catalog and I start to see a lot of those bands, especially nu metal bands, oh my God, like the Linkin Parks and the Korn's and-
13. CWChris Williamson
  Have you seen MGK's about to release a track with Limp Bizkit?
14. NNNik Nocturnal
  With... Yeah, I d-That's fun, man. Like, you know what I mean? It's gonna be like-
15. CWChris Williamson
  They kind of fit
16. NNNik Nocturnal
  ... "Han, you know, starfish, fucking hotdog brother."
17. CWChris Williamson
  [laughs]
18. NNNik Nocturnal
  Hell yeah. Like, whatever, you know, da, da, da, da, da, da, da. I don't know how they're gonna combo, but, like, it'll, it'll make sense, you know? And that's something ... When I see stuff like that, I think it's fun. Even if the song ends up being shit, I'm like, "That's fun." I'm glad someone went-
19. CWChris Williamson
  I'm glad that you did it.
20. NNNik Nocturnal
  Yeah, I'm ... Someone went for it, you know what I mean? Like, that's cool. And unfortunately in the metal scene, you not only don't get rewarded for those efforts, you usually get shunned intensely on the-
21. CWChris Williamson
  What, for collaborating too much outside of the genre, you think?
22. NNNik Nocturnal
  Yeah, if, like, you get shunned if, if it's not, like-
23. CWChris Williamson
  You have Rihanna do a feature on your fucking next track or whatever.
24. NNNik Nocturnal
  Yeah, it's, it's very tricky. It's ... There's very rare occasions where, like, it's like, "Oh, hell yeah," like, "This is sick." Like, I ... There was one, I think, like Spiritbox did something with, like, Megan, Megan Thee Stallion, and I was like, "That's a big combo," you know-
25. CWChris Williamson
  Mm-hmm, mm-hmm
26. NNNik Nocturnal
  ... between those two. And-
27. CWChris Williamson
  I imagine that the Venn diagram of the people that listen to Spiritbox and Megan Thee Stallion-
28. NNNik Nocturnal
  [laughs] It's-
29. CWChris Williamson
  ... are just fucking two circles-
30. NNNik Nocturnal
  It's-
25:39 – 28:28
How Pop Culture Is Reviving Metal
1. NNNik Nocturnal
  about that.
2. CWChris Williamson
  I gotta, I gotta bring it up. Have you heard the new fucking Saosin song?
3. NNNik Nocturnal
  It's sick. It-
4. CWChris Williamson
  Oh my God
5. NNNik Nocturnal
  ... it, it's nostalgic water.
6. CWChris Williamson
  Dude, Saosin was my fucking... Where? Why can't I find-
7. NNNik Nocturnal
  Oh.
8. CWChris Williamson
  It's just reaction.
9. NNNik Nocturnal
  Fucking reaction
10. CWChris Williamson
  These are, these are your fucking [laughs] peers, dude.
11. NNNik Nocturnal
  [laughs]
12. CWChris Williamson
  How... I don't want the fucking reaction.
13. NNNik Nocturnal
  [laughs]
14. CWChris Williamson
  I want to see the actual song, please.
15. NNNik Nocturnal
  Yes.
16. CWChris Williamson
  Thank you very much. Oh my God, dude. This is sickening.
17. NNNik Nocturnal
  [rock music] Yeah, and they got Phil now in the band, who was, um... I mean, he was in As I Lay Dying for the longest time, and, like, you hear it in that riffing, dude. It's just... [rock music]
18. CWChris Williamson
  When I heard this guy's vocals come back in, I was like, "I'm 19 again." [laughs]
19. NNNik Nocturnal
  [laughs]
20. CWChris Williamson
  I'm 19 again.
21. NNNik Nocturnal
  Yeah.
22. CWChris Williamson
  I'm 19. I'm at my friend's house. I've got a beer hat on with two straws going into my mouth.
23. NNNik Nocturnal
  [laughs]
24. CWChris Williamson
  I'm playing Guitar Hero.
25. NNNik Nocturnal
  'Cause dude, that's how I started guitar. I played, um... I started by playing Guitar Hero. That was the first thing ever, my introduction. But I- that's why that era, dude, like between Guitar Hero, MTV, uh, Tony Hawk Pro Skater, like all these games were influenced so much with music.
26. CWChris Williamson
  Uh, the snowboarding games.
27. NNNik Nocturnal
  Snow- oh, oh, Amped.
28. CWChris Williamson
  Yes.
29. NNNik Nocturnal
  Amped, massive.
30. CWChris Williamson
  Uh, w- that was where I learned about Static-X.
28:28 – 34:55
The Best Metal Songs for Nostalgia
1. NNNik Nocturnal
  ever heard." You know what I mean?
2. CWChris Williamson
  What would you, what would you put up that... What do you go back to when you're listening to stuff that's from that era?
3. NNNik Nocturnal
  So okay, Alexisonfire, Watch Out or self-titled-
4. CWChris Williamson
  Yeah
5. NNNik Nocturnal
  ... uh, and Crisis. That, that true- I... If I listen to one, I have to listen to the whole trilogy.
6. CWChris Williamson
  Correct.
7. NNNik Nocturnal
  I'm like-
8. CWChris Williamson
  Yeah, yeah.
9. NNNik Nocturnal
  Um-
10. CWChris Williamson
  It's like watching the first Lord of the Rings.
11. NNNik Nocturnal
  Yeah, you-
12. CWChris Williamson
  I'm locked in until the end
13. NNNik Nocturnal
  I, I'm-
14. CWChris Williamson
  He throws the fucking ring in Mordor
15. NNNik Nocturnal
  ... exactly. I'm locked in. Um, Bullet the Poison is so classic because it just... It embodies that youthful time with... Again, if I don't even care about the lyrics or any of that capacity, it's just the feeling, the vibes-
16. CWChris Williamson
  Right
17. NNNik Nocturnal
  ... of these aggressive riffs, like these, uh, these, like, emo British kids that are, like, trying to be as metal as they can, but they're still t- like kids-
18. CWChris Williamson
  Yep
19. NNNik Nocturnal
  ... at that time. But they blend in in a way that embodies that youthfulness so well.
20. CWChris Williamson
  That first Architects EP.
21. NNNik Nocturnal
  That first Arch... Yeah, that is... That's, it's when they were mathcore. [laughs]
22. CWChris Williamson
  Yeah.
23. NNNik Nocturnal
  Very different to now.
24. CWChris Williamson
  Yep.
25. NNNik Nocturnal
  Um, but I think that. Killswitch As Daylight Dies is a big one for me. Um, I like, um, oh my goodness, uh, All Our Mains, Followed by Deals. That was more on the guitar side.
26. CWChris Williamson
  Atreyu?
27. NNNik Nocturnal
  Atreyu with The Curse.
28. CWChris Williamson
  Yep.
29. NNNik Nocturnal
  Yep. That's a big one.
30. CWChris Williamson
  What a fucking era, dude.
34:55 – 41:29
Is Originality Dead in Music?
1. CWChris Williamson
  So I was listening to, you know Cody Rhodes? He's the WWE guy with the blonde hair.
2. NNNik Nocturnal
  I don't. I don't.
3. CWChris Williamson
  Okay. So I, I, I don't watch WWE much, but I was listening to this pod, and it was really fucking interesting, and he was saying that it doesn't matter who did it first. It matters who did it best-
4. NNNik Nocturnal
  Yep
5. CWChris Williamson
  ... and who popularized it.
6. NNNik Nocturnal
  Mm-hmm.
7. CWChris Williamson
  So he was talking about Hulk Hogan, and he said Hulk Hogan did the power up thing. So he's kind of losing a fight, and then someone hits him, and he shakes it off.
8. NNNik Nocturnal
  Okay.
9. CWChris Williamson
  And then they hit him again, and he shakes it off, and they hit him again, and then he turns the fight around and he wins.
10. NNNik Nocturnal
  Hmm.
11. CWChris Williamson
  Nine wrestlers had done that-
12. NNNik Nocturnal
  Okay, got it. Yeah
13. CWChris Williamson
  ... before Hulk Hogan. Also, the finger thing, like the finger point-
14. NNNik Nocturnal
  Mm-hmm
15. CWChris Williamson
  ... that was kind of classically owned by Hulk Hogan. He stole that from f- a ton of other people that had done it before, but they hadn't done it to the point where they'd got saturation and popularity and owned it.
16. NNNik Nocturnal
  Yeah.
17. CWChris Williamson
  And it's kind of not too dissimilar with this, 'cause Architects with Doomsday, like-
18. NNNik Nocturnal
  Mm-hmm
19. CWChris Williamson
  ... there's a fucking wonderful line I love, which is, "Originality is just undetected plagiarism."
20. NNNik Nocturnal
  Oh, dude, nothing is new anymore. Yeah, technically.
21. CWChris Williamson
  Sa- Sam will say himself. He's-
22. NNNik Nocturnal
  Yeah
23. CWChris Williamson
  ... "Oh, well, yeah, dude, you know, I was listening to this thing or that." I mean, listen to Jordan Fish. Like, Jordan's fucking inspo-
24. NNNik Nocturnal
  Yeah
25. CWChris Williamson
  ... for so much of the shit that he did is, like, coming from weird video games-
26. NNNik Nocturnal
  Yep
27. CWChris Williamson
  ... and, like, watching cyberpunk stuff and all, you know, real crazy out there stuff. And you go, okay, so it wasn't original, but you were the first one to do that thing-
28. NNNik Nocturnal
  Yeah
29. CWChris Williamson
  ... well-
30. NNNik Nocturnal
  Yeah
41:29 – 47:02
Is There Beef in the Metal Genre?
1. CWChris Williamson
  And, uh, yeah, I, I don't know. I haven't seen much, at least coming out of metal core, I haven't seen much by the way of beef from this band took from this band took from this band. I think maybe because it's so small.
2. NNNik Nocturnal
  Yeah.
3. CWChris Williamson
  The, the scene is sufficiently small that the likelihood of you encountering them at Rockville or-
4. NNNik Nocturnal
  Yeah
5. CWChris Williamson
  ... at fucking Download-
6. NNNik Nocturnal
  It's very high
7. CWChris Williamson
  ... or something is n- there's not enough bands to go around.
8. NNNik Nocturnal
  [laughs] Yeah.
9. CWChris Williamson
  You know? So it's like, um, uh, podcast partners, uh, with w- what we do.
10. NNNik Nocturnal
  Mm.
11. CWChris Williamson
  If you get to a certain level, there's only a handful of partners that have the money to be able-
12. NNNik Nocturnal
  Yeah
13. CWChris Williamson
  ... to sponsor shows of a certain size. That means that you can't piss them off.
14. NNNik Nocturnal
  Yeah.
15. CWChris Williamson
  Right? You can't, because word, either word will get around and/or you need them at some point.
16. NNNik Nocturnal
  Yeah.
17. CWChris Williamson
  Like, I'm gonna be, uh, the equivalent of a supporting band-
18. NNNik Nocturnal
  Yeah
19. CWChris Williamson
  ... or headlining with a po- I'm gonna be at some fucking conference somewhere-
20. NNNik Nocturnal
  Yeah, yeah
21. CWChris Williamson
  ... or w- whatever. Like, need someone to loop me in with the guy from Eight Sleep or the dude that does fucking BetterHelp or whatever.
22. NNNik Nocturnal
  Yeah.
23. CWChris Williamson
  Like, it's the same thing.
24. NNNik Nocturnal
  Yeah. It's, uh, the scene is very big and small at the same time. And that's coming from me, again, a person-- Like, I'm not in a touring band. I'm not part of that specific segment of that world, even though I work with all the bands. I, I, you know, in terms of the label industry side, like I work with them on the back end in terms of like, "Hey," you know, at least back then they would be like, "Hey, we got this coming out." You know? So I was very in tuned always with like PR and, and like them being like, "Hey, we got these releases coming up. Hey, do you want this person on, on your, on your show to, to the shit?" Or you know what I mean? "Do you wanna do some kind of content and whatnot?" Um, so that's my knowledge base of that. But in terms of even just that circle and talking to people, like y- everyone kinda knows everybody. So if you're a dick, it's really obvious. Just don't be a dick to people, and then you'll usually be fine. And obviously part of that is you trying not to copy/paste [chuckles] someone's song session, 'cause it can be very like super obvi- I know that-
25. CWChris Williamson
  Well, the other way, the other way through that is to almost make being a dick your brand, which is what Ron- Ronnie Radke does.
26. NNNik Nocturnal
  There, there's a, there's a few people that I think have done that so successfully, uh, and mad kudos. It, it's-- They, you know, they do it to a point where it's like, damn, like to be consistent at doing that is like exhausting. So if you can pull that off, holy shit.
27. CWChris Williamson
  It's almost like... Do you know what it is? And I think he's fucking fascinating. Ronnie's gonna come on the show soon, which is gonna be cool. Like, it's basically like being the heel in wrestling-
28. NNNik Nocturnal
  Mm
29. CWChris Williamson
  ... a little bit. Like the heel can have the, the belt.
30. NNNik Nocturnal
  Right.
47:02 – 50:22
Who is Slipknot’s New Drummer?
1. NNNik Nocturnal
  like-
2. CWChris Williamson
  Can you explain to me-
3. NNNik Nocturnal
  Yeah
4. CWChris Williamson
  ... I, I heard this story about, uh, the drummer from Slipknot just got-
5. NNNik Nocturnal
  Okay
6. CWChris Williamson
  ... a relatively new drummer to Slipknot, which has kind of given them-
7. NNNik Nocturnal
  Yeah
8. CWChris Williamson
  ... a n- a fresh-
9. NNNik Nocturnal
  Eloy
10. CWChris Williamson
  ... breeze of life. What, like what's the story there? 'Cause I only know half of it.
11. NNNik Nocturnal
  Um, I don't know the, the backend story. I just know they... I mean, obviously they had Joey way back when, legendary, and then, uh, they had Jay for quite some time, and then, I don't know, a falling out or something. It's, it's the usual PR stuff of like they have some-
12. CWChris Williamson
  Creative differences.
13. NNNik Nocturnal
  Yeah, man, and that's why when you see that, you're just like, "Okay." [chuckles] You know? And you kind of move along. And I don't know any of those guys personally, so that's why it's just... And same thing, most fans just go, "Oh, uh, that sucks." Um, and then they got, uh, Eloy, who was super sick. He was in, uh, Sepultura, if I'm not mistaken. And, um, yeah, he's, he's a badass drummer, and then, you know, people are stoked on that, and I don't think they've released music with him yet or anything.
14. CWChris Williamson
  I've seen some of the videos of it happening live though, which is-
15. NNNik Nocturnal
  He's, he's a beast
16. CWChris Williamson
  ... some of the most insane shit.
17. NNNik Nocturnal
  He's a beast, and that's why, like that music back then, it's so aggressive and primal. That th- that 2000s era, 'cause there was so much happening. You know-
18. CWChris Williamson
  Mm-hmm
19. NNNik Nocturnal
  ... we're talking obviously about like the, the emo stuff and then the metalcore stuff, but that nu metal phase that broke through the barrier, I think, bigger than any of the other kind of metal bands at that time.
20. CWChris Williamson
  Mm-hmm.
21. NNNik Nocturnal
  Like the Slipknot's, the Linkin Parks, the System of a Down's.
22. CWChris Williamson
  Mm-hmm.
23. NNNik Nocturnal
  You know, the fact that kids grow up now and they're like, I don't know, 10 or whatever, and, and you see like, "My favorite song's Chop Suey," it's like, first of all, you're probably too young to-
24. CWChris Williamson
  [laughs]
25. NNNik Nocturnal
  ... for that to be your favorite song, you know? Like the, for the, the lyrical context of that. Um, but number two, how the fuck did you find that song? Because I found that when I was 10, you know what I mean? Like-
26. CWChris Williamson
  Yeah
27. NNNik Nocturnal
  ... that's crazy.
28. CWChris Williamson
  Let's watch some of those videos. Jerry, can I have the screen?
29. NNNik Nocturnal
  Oh, this is nostalgia. Let's go, dude.
30. CWChris Williamson
  I need to... I wanna watch some of the live stuff of the new Slipknot. Um-This is eight months ago. This is about right.
50:22 – 51:05
How Long Have Kilswitch Engage Been Around?
1. CWChris Williamson
  But how long has Killswitch been around?
2. NNNik Nocturnal
  Oh my goodness. I don't know when they technically... 'Cause it's always weird, the album is not when the bands usually start. Usually they grind for five years in local shows in like their parents' garage. [laughs]
3. CWChris Williamson
  Mm-hmm.
4. NNNik Nocturnal
  So like when they form. Alive and Just Breathing was 2000... Oh my God, two, one. Either two, either one, two, three, or four. No, End of Heartache was 2004. As Daylight Dies was 2006. I think it was 2002, around there. Um, old. Old. But they've been... They're consistent. They've been going at it, and they're timeless. When you make bangers like that, it's something that's so special.
5. CWChris Williamson
  Kanye West, dude.
6. NNNik Nocturnal
  [laughs]
7. CWChris Williamson
  Kanye West. If you make ba- if you make bangers, you can keep on doing it.
8. NNNik Nocturnal
  You can keep on
51:05 – 54:04
Why is Metal Becoming Self-Aware?
1. NNNik Nocturnal
  doing it.
2. CWChris Williamson
  Metal's sort of becoming increasingly self-aware and ironic, I think, especially in its positioning.
3. NNNik Nocturnal
  Yeah.
4. CWChris Williamson
  The way the sort of people put it across. What do you... Why do you think that's happening? What's that say about the audience, the industry, the music?
5. NNNik Nocturnal
  Um, I think it has to do with a lot of things we actually talked about so far. It's like w- there's a lot of nostalgia built in with the new modern age and people going back and being like excited about that. So when they also look back, I think that's part of the irony and somewhat of the joke because back then a lot of the metal was so like random and like kids in their garage, like Job for a Cowboy or like especially during the MySpace days when like the song titles were like, "Tell Jimmy to get the fuck out of the garage," or like whatever it is.
6. CWChris Williamson
  [laughs]
7. NNNik Nocturnal
  You know what I mean? Like it's, they're just such random names back then where that, for that, you know, these bands weren't thinking. I think a lot of these bands also were like, "Well, we're not gonna be a big band. You know, people don't have to remember these names. They don't have to remember these, these breakdown melodies, these, these sound clips, these, you know, vocal moments. Like who's... You know, we're gonna be playing to our few fans that like us, and we're happy with that."
8. CWChris Williamson
  Mm.
9. NNNik Nocturnal
  So I think part of that modern day of, of embracing that is revisiting though that era because it was so raw like that and kind of r- making the joke about it again [laughs] in, in a-
10. CWChris Williamson
  Mm
11. NNNik Nocturnal
  ... in a, in a very odd way.
12. CWChris Williamson
  You almost parody yourself.
13. NNNik Nocturnal
  You're kind of parodying yourself. But then also how the industry has evolved in a way where there's a lot of particular ways to do modern music even though, funny enough, it's more genre fluid than ever, I would say, in terms of like, again, you listen to like, uh, Sleep Token and they have a black metal part with like a pop song. Like that's, that's cool, that's crazy, but it still comes down to you gotta have good songwriting or like no one's gonna care after the first initial like TikTok that goes-
14. CWChris Williamson
  Oh, that's interesting.
15. NNNik Nocturnal
  Yeah.
16. CWChris Williamson
  That's different.
17. NNNik Nocturnal
  Yeah. Oh, that's, that's cool. Okay. Like not... If you don't add it to the playlist, no one... It's gone, right? Like it's, it's in the abyss and then it's like, okay.
18. CWChris Williamson
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54:04 – 58:52
How Hit Songs Are Really Made
1. CWChris Williamson
  It is interesting if you look at, like Token's a good example of this, uh, The Summoning is their most played track, I think.
2. NNNik Nocturnal
  Oh yeah, I remember that moment.
3. CWChris Williamson
  But w- that breaking through, like what makes a song, especially a metal song, break through to that kind of a level-
4. NNNik Nocturnal
  Mm
5. CWChris Williamson
  ... versus this is a fucking awesome song. Like Caramel is one of the most catchy-
6. NNNik Nocturnal
  Mm-hmm
7. CWChris Williamson
  ... songs that I've ever heard.
8. NNNik Nocturnal
  Mm.
9. CWChris Williamson
  But it's not gon- it doesn't look like it's gonna get to the level of The Summoning.
10. NNNik Nocturnal
  Mm-hmm.
11. CWChris Williamson
  Okay, what, what is that? Is it the distribution? Is it the l- repeat listenability? Is it constantly bringing in new people or is it just-
12. NNNik Nocturnal
  Mm
13. CWChris Williamson
  ... rinsing the living shit out of the playlist of the ones that l- you know what I mean? I always look at the top-
14. NNNik Nocturnal
  Mm-hmm
15. CWChris Williamson
  ... songs of a band and think, "HuhWhy that one?
16. NNNik Nocturnal
  I-
17. CWChris Williamson
  Why that one?
18. NNNik Nocturnal
  I think f- because I was a- I was around for that moment particularly because I followed-- I, you know, I listened to Sleep Token when they were the underground band. Because this always happens with these bands. They're the underground band that you see in, like, Reddit, you know, subreddits of like, "Yo, you guys hear this band or see this band live? They just played to, like, 50 people. They're really sick." You know, "I really like this record." You know what I mean? Like, uh, oh, that, that's cool. You listen to, like, the, this, the Offering. "You heard The Offering, dude? This is so cool and, like, different. It's got piano and, like, you know, you can tell, like, it's, it's kind of pop mixed with, like, Meshuggah and shit," and, like, that's sick, right? And then their reach reaches this point, and I see this h- has happened with multiple of these modern metal bands, um, where they have a really good catalog, and that's the smartest thing I've seen those bands do with up to that point. Like, they just, they're consistent. Make bangers. Don't, don't just chase a trend or do this. Like, fir- every song's a banger. Even though there's not that many people listening-
19. CWChris Williamson
  Mm
20. NNNik Nocturnal
  ... those people are very, very happy.
21. CWChris Williamson
  Yeah.
22. NNNik Nocturnal
  Right? So these bands nowadays making a good catalog of bangers, grinding, and then there's a moment, and then that moment has to coincide usually with another huge banger, one of their best bangers. So that's a band where they were having the momentum from when I saw. Again, I didn't get into them when they did the EP, but I started to get into them when they did, like, the, the, The Offering, that album, and then the album after that. Um, something about tomb is where you f-f-fucking the long-
23. CWChris Williamson
  This Place Will Be Coming Your Tomb.
24. NNNik Nocturnal
  Thank you. Yeah. Uh, This Place Will Become Your Tomb. Um, and same even Alkaline. And I actu- I actually thought they were about to explode with that song because I heard that. I was like, this-
25. CWChris Williamson
  It's got everything
26. NNNik Nocturnal
  ... it's got everything. This is-
27. CWChris Williamson
  Yeah
28. NNNik Nocturnal
  ... this is sick. Like, okay, do the thing. Yeah, because The Offering I already saw all that stuff happening, and then Alkaline, I was like, "Oh, cool." But there wasn't a moment around it. It was just, oh, another really sick banger. Now this band's a little bit more hype, kind of like grinding their, I'm gonna use, you know, nerdy ass gaming terms, like your ELO, like, you know, you're ranking, like, really slowly but consistently. You're not losing any matches, but the rate at which you're gaining points in MMR is kind of like at a particular pace. You're not gonna all of a sudden shoot up unless something happens. So they had all this built up hype with the underground, I think kind of like being like, "This is great." And that's where the band was, you know, underground. And then they dropped The Summoning, and because it had a moment in it, and the song was really good, and the band had this massive catalog, and then the internet took notice.
29. CWChris Williamson
  Yeah.
30. NNNik Nocturnal
  It was just a... It was the perfect storm of-
58:52 – 1:06:49
Are Bands Being Engineered for Virality?
1. CWChris Williamson
  Jared-
2. NNNik Nocturnal
  Right?
3. CWChris Williamson
  ... give me the screen. I wanna show you. Keep going. I wanna show you-
4. NNNik Nocturnal
  Yeah
5. CWChris Williamson
  ... this Geese thing while you're talking about it.
6. NNNik Nocturnal
  Oh, dude. I, I, I forgot about the quack, dude. Let's go. Let's-
7. CWChris Williamson
  Yeah. It's, I know. Have you heard of Geese?
8. NNNik Nocturnal
  No.
9. CWChris Williamson
  I hadn't, but I, I'd heard that there was a band called Geese, and I thought, "Oh, that's-"
10. NNNik Nocturnal
  That's not Knocked Goose, is it?
11. CWChris Williamson
  [laughs] Knocked Goose, dude?
12. NNNik Nocturnal
  Knocked Goose, dude.
13. CWChris Williamson
  You could imagine that. I, I wanna use, um, whatever that AI thing is to do-
14. NNNik Nocturnal
  Suno? Yeah.
15. CWChris Williamson
  Take, take... Suno. Take the band Knocked Loose-
16. NNNik Nocturnal
  Yeah
17. CWChris Williamson
  ... and replace all of the members with geese.
18. NNNik Nocturnal
  Geese.
19. CWChris Williamson
  And tell me what that sounds like.
20. NNNik Nocturnal
  See, that's-
21. CWChris Williamson
  Thank you
22. NNNik Nocturnal
  ... what AI should have been used for. I, I... That's, that, that is the best use of it, for fun. But it's, it has changed.
23. CWChris Williamson
  Okay.
24. NNNik Nocturnal
  The bands-
25. CWChris Williamson
  The fanfare around the band Geese was actually a psyop. TLDR, a tech company that has learned how to-
26. NNNik Nocturnal
  On Fandango Forever, of course
27. CWChris Williamson
  ... juke the al- the, the algorithm, created the momentum that made Geese go viral. Record industry has always done things like this, and everything on the internet is fake. This was it. So it's this Wired article. The Brooklyn band-
28. NNNik Nocturnal
  Oh, shit
29. CWChris Williamson
  ... Geese was labeled as an industry plant by, uh, by those who questioned its sudden ubiquity. Maybe it was. Brooklyn indie rockers-
30. NNNik Nocturnal
  Why Geese, man?
1:06:49 – 1:16:52
The Building Blocks of Nik’s Fast Songwriting
1. CWChris Williamson
  do, "Hey, tell me about this new fast songwriting thing."
2. NNNik Nocturnal
  Oh, dude. Yeah. Um-
3. CWChris Williamson
  You're launching a new channel.
4. NNNik Nocturnal
  No. So not a new channel. So basically I, a thing I, I used to do was like I did this series called How To Metal. It was like writing song. It was, how do I word this for? I would do shorts of like... 'Cause a lot of people loved a lot of these bands, and I love a lot of these bands. I grew up, like I said, listening to a bunch of bands and I'm like, at this point I've written enough music. I've also listened to enough music, and I understand how itKind of works, kind of just describing factors we were talking about, like particular types of BPM or these intricacies of like-
5. CWChris Williamson
  Metal Rick Beato.
6. NNNik Nocturnal
  Yeah. [laughs] Yeah, Metal Rick Beato. Uh, respect to Rick Beato. He's sick, by the way, and um-
7. CWChris Williamson
  He's the man. Front man of the show
8. NNNik Nocturnal
  I used to do these how to in 30 seconds, so I would kind of do a short of like, okay, you-- like I, I grew up loving, uh, Underoath, so like, okay, I want to... Here's how to Underoath in 30 seconds. You know what I mean? 'Cause I also was having fun of like understanding short content. I, I'm-- again, I come from the old YouTube world of make a video, not make a clip [laughs] . You know, I was like, I'm like, "What the f*ck's a clip," right? How am I supposed to make something, especially 'cause I didn't grow up with like Vine on, on my end. It was like how-- like how do I intro-- you know, how do I bring something of value to someone for like in like 10, 30 seconds? This is weird. Like I need to do more.
9. CWChris Williamson
  Mm.
10. NNNik Nocturnal
  So I, I kind of tried with, with this, and I was like, so for Underoath example, it'd be like, you know, how to Underoath in 30 seconds. You know, dissonant chords, you know, um, pterodactyl screech. You know, like you do stereotypical things. Sometimes they're more funny meme, uh, attributes, and sometimes they're more like, uh, musician knowledge attributes, and you kind of combine those. And like at the end of 30 seconds, I'd play like kind of like an eight, eight-second riff of that kind of outlines that sound and try to get as close as I can to that style, um, while not actually taking any of their songs obviously, 'cause that defeats the purpose.
11. CWChris Williamson
  Hmm.
12. NNNik Nocturnal
  Um, so I did that for so many bands, and when they-- I saw people were like, "Yo, this is sick. Like full version when? When are you doing the full?" And I'm like, "You really?" [laughs] Like, "You want the full version of this?" Like okay, so I would, um, go on stream, and I would write the whole thing in two and, two and a half hours, two to three hours, um, live because I thought it was fun. You know, I'm like, all right, well, I already have the hardest part to write, the, the riff and the vibe, so like I kinda gotta commit. Anyways, I would do that, and then I would put it on DSPs and kind of make it a whole rollout on YouTube. Um, so I did that, and that was probably the peak of when I was doing YouTube and like going hard and doing a lot of crazy sh*t. Um, and I would do that once a week, release a song once a week, do one of those once a week. It was a little psychotic, but uh, it was fun. And then fast-forward kind of a year later, I, I took a break, um, for many reasons, but you know, especially burnout and doing that for a while. And then when I came back, um, I noticed, you know, hey, you know, when I was gone, all-- you know, I was taking care of myself. I was going outside and like, you know, working out, caring about like under-- learning. I missed learning so much about macros, micros, you know. And I was like, oh my God, like what the f*ck is this world? I never-- I haven't taken time to learn new things, right? Um, and with that also learning production, learning more songwriting, learning a lot of that. And I noticed I spent most days just also writing music, hanging with my wife, and feeding squirrels, like going to the park and going to Costco. Like that was my life. Um, and coming back, I came back with a song which was really sick, a nocturnal track that I was like, yo, let's combine like these really obscure references like dance, electronic music, and, and funk and fall music like Voljart and Merar and all this stuff and see what happens. And um, kind of made that a new project. And as I came back, the focus of me wanting to write, I started to get a little distracted of like, oh, like this is fun, like YouTube. Like yeah, I guess let's make You- like videos and stuff. And like I had a lot of fun doing that, but very quickly to avoid going back to, you know, the cycle of oh sh*t, uh, I caught myself very quickly, 'cause again, that time off, I never had time off. I, I did YouTube for twe- 11 years at that point. Yeah, 11 years straight. I don't think I ever did not upload for a week. Um, and again, best job in the world. It's, it's, it's hard work but in a different capacity. You know, it's very mentally exhausting. There is no such thing as clock out. It is you think about it, it's all you do. It's all you think about, right? Forever. But obviously, in terms of like versus a real job [laughs] , you know, it's much easier. Like I much prefer to do that, right? Um, but yeah, I, I came back, and I was starting to do these things, and I'm like, oh, this is fun too. Like yeah, I kinda wanna explore. Like I wanna test the grounds. Like what do I feel? Like this is... You know, I, I left the internet and took my break and have this new perspective on, on life to a capacity, but it's particularly about what I wanna do t- with my life every day, um, and with, with what I wanna give to people and share with people, uh, and what I wanna spend my time doing. And it's been a bit of a trial period until kind of, um, a few months ago. I was like, okay, like I understand. I tried a little of this. I tried a little of that. Again, like that's definitely not for me. I definitely don't wanna be the reaction guy, 'cause like I feel like I can offer the world more than watching a song [laughs] , you know? And it's really tricky, 'cause particularly with what I've done with the channel and what I've done with myself is I love sharing music. That's, that's what it c- came down to. That's why, you know, I started-- I-- when I started my channel, I would do guitar covers because I didn't know how to talk really [laughs] , you know? I was just an awkward kid, you know, in, in, uh, just finishing high school, and I didn't really know how to talk to people. I didn't really-- I didn't know what being a YouTuber was. I just played guitar, and I had a lot of cool music on guitar that I wanted to share with people. Um, so the channel has always kind of been revolved around sharing new music in different capacities, whether later on it's reactions, whether it's through memes, et cetera, et cetera. And uh then again, nowadays it's like, okay, well, how do I do that while still not going back to kind of old ways of like, "Oh, well, here's the news. Let's talk about it." But like the news is kind of always f*cked up [laughs] . You know? There's not... Unfortunately, in the metal scene, there are really good things that happen and really amazing, like hell yeah, like that's a big feat. You know, like Knocked Loose playing Kimmel or like Spiritbox playing like, uh, the Grammys. Like that's amazing, right? Um, but there's also a lot of like, oh, this guy got canceled, and like that guy texted someone under age. And you're like, mm-kay, this is not... You know, I don't wanna go live and talk about this with people. This is not what I want to bring energy into my life, first of all. I don't wanna absorb this.
13. CWChris Williamson
  But you're kind of obliged to because you're in the scene, and this is news in the scene.
14. NNNik Nocturnal
  Exactly. I'm not-
15. CWChris Williamson
  Hey, when are you gonna talk about-
16. NNNik Nocturnal
  Yeah
17. CWChris Williamson
  ... such and such?
18. NNNik Nocturnal
  Dude, when I was gone and Ozzy died, that sh*t was so sad, and like the only thing I was like, f*ck, man. Like I grew up, you know, one of the first metal songs I ever heard was "Crazy Train" in general. Um, and like f*ck, man, this sucks. And I was gone from the internet, so the only thing I had was like thank f*ck I do not have to talk about this because this is n- like this is not my place. This is not something I wanna go live and discuss and likeShare it, you know what I mean? Like, this is s- it's w- it's really tricky 'cause you also want to, with a community, and you build a community for so long, you know, just like you celebrate the wins, you have to celebrate the Ls and the sad parts, right?
19. CWChris Williamson
  Mm-hmm.
20. NNNik Nocturnal
  Um, and when there's some things too when it's like, I don't add value to this conversation beside maybe slightly consoling a few people.
21. CWChris Williamson
  Yeah.
22. NNNik Nocturnal
  Um, but it's also like I'm not in the right space to do that anyway, so I'm not, I'm not gonna bring any positive energy to this by doing anything with this. So, like, a lot of things like that happen, and it really sucks, and that's something, again, I was in a space of what I was doing before, which I had fun. It was great, and I feel like community-wise, like, it became something really strong, and a lot of people would go and look for and like, "Hey, there's news," this, this, that. But, um, when it came down to it, it still was like it was too much of, like, a slippery slope of, of like, "Hey, this really cool thing happened." Great, yeah. "This really shitty thing happened." Oh.
23. CWChris Williamson
  Guess I need to talk about that as well.
24. NNNik Nocturnal
  Yeah, and it's ironic because obviously in the content space, the negative stuff will do better, and a lot of people get really excited.
25. CWChris Williamson
  Dude, Fantana versus Radke was, like, the heavyweight battle of 2025.
26. NNNik Nocturnal
  There's-- the scene's lovely, Chris. It's, it's a crazy place where, like, from the sidelines I see and I'm like, I'm kind of like, I'm happy I can just chill on the sidelines.
27. CWChris Williamson
  You are aware that this is the same in, like, every industry though, right?
28. NNNik Nocturnal
  Yeah.
29. CWChris Williamson
  Like in podcasting-
30. NNNik Nocturnal
  Mm
1:16:52 – 1:27:06
The Hidden Costs of Taking a Break
1. NNNik Nocturnal
  and-
2. CWChris Williamson
  What was that like to-
3. NNNik Nocturnal
  Yeah
4. CWChris Williamson
  ... a lot of people, even if they don't make videos on the internet, can relate to being hard-charging. You've said, uh, "I've never actually taken the time to not just burn." Right?
5. NNNik Nocturnal
  Yeah.
6. CWChris Williamson
  This always on candle at both ends thing. Talk to me about the deceleration of attention, progress, even your habits. You wake up and do research what's going on, on Rock Sound or whatever, and then that would be, that would be part of the thing.
7. NNNik Nocturnal
  Yeah.
8. CWChris Williamson
  And you, your girlfriend, wife, you're like, "Well, fucking, you know, like, she does the same thing as me or a similar thing to me, and, like, maybe 'cause I'm not doing this thing anymore, but who's my identity? Who am I after this?"
9. NNNik Nocturnal
  Yeah.
10. CWChris Williamson
  Can you just explain the-
11. NNNik Nocturnal
  Yeah
12. CWChris Williamson
  ... suite of challenges and how you dealt with them as you went through your hiatus?
13. NNNik Nocturnal
  Yeah. Oh, that's, that's a big s- chat probably with a psychologist for like two hours, but I'll t- I'll dump it down to more like, yeah, it's-- it-- One of the big things you mentioned too, like, my wife does the same thing I do, which is awesome. Like, she's a musician. She's pr- she produces. She-- And she used to also play guitar and do guitar content too, and, like, that's so cool. And one of those things of just being like, I'm so lucky doing what I do, and especially what I did at that time, and I'm so grateful for it, and that's why it's so tricky to be so grateful for something and want to also show that, you know? 'Cause I don't want two people to also be like, "Hey, dude, like you're, you're not feeling-- Like, what? You get to be a YouTuber and what? You're sad? Like, what's your fucking problem?" You know what I mean? And it's like, yeah, 'cause life can happen, you know? There's, there's other aspects of life. But also it being a thing of, like, you know, like, my wife is here, and, like, she also does the same thing. However, I'm st- I'm still playing, like, single player in my career because of how I set it up for the past 12 years, you know? My career is based around me doing this, this, and this, and this, and this, and this. Meanwhile, my wife's there also doing her own thing, which she's never complained about. She's the most supportive, amazing woman ever. Um, but it's still one of those things of, like... I remember I would, you know, something would happen in the scene or, like, a comment or, like, I'd be like, "Oh, I gotta go do this video and do this thing." Um, which again, bless job, but it's one of those of like-- And I see my wife there, like, writing music there by herself, and I'm like, "I just wanna write music with you. Why the fuck am I doing this?"
14. CWChris Williamson
  Well, you're living life. This is one of the problems-
15. NNNik Nocturnal
  Yeah
16. CWChris Williamson
  ... when you have two people who have big lives-
17. NNNik Nocturnal
  Yeah
18. CWChris Williamson
  ... especially lives that start to get separated.
19. NNNik Nocturnal
  Yeah.
20. CWChris Williamson
  The most meaningful things that you do in your work life occur separately.
21. NNNik Nocturnal
  Yes, exactly. Yeah.
22. CWChris Williamson
  Like, you have your highest highs of your career, and you're not sharing them with your person-
23. NNNik Nocturnal
  I know
24. CWChris Williamson
  ... at all.
25. NNNik Nocturnal
  Yeah. And I'm so f- I am so fortunate that my person does all those things, so that's why-
26. CWChris Williamson
  At least she can speak the language even if she's not there when it happens.
27. NNNik Nocturnal
  Exactly. And she's always, she's always been so supportive, like, "Do your thing," and, and that's something I'm so grateful for. And, you know, that was something I noticed when I, when I took a break and just spending time us doing-- like, just writing dumb music, having fun, writing not even metal shit. We wrote, like, funk beats and, like, Brazilian funk shit and, like, electronic music and dance stuff, and it was, like, so fun. We're like, there was no one around. It was just us.
28. CWChris Williamson
  No pressure.
29. NNNik Nocturnal
  Yeah, writing music. We would turn on, like, the strobe light just for the vibe for us. You know, there's no cameras. We didn't care, right? It's something so special. But, like-That was a big thing of like, this is so special. You know what I mean? And I, I want m- I wanna make every day like this if I can. You know, I'm fortunate enough to have a career around this, so why, why not spend time figuring out what life can be now that I'm, like, an adult? Because when I started this, I was 17, 18. Your, your, your brain is not fucking fully formed until, like, you're, like, 30. I don't know. Like, uh, you know, like, as, as ... especially as a metalhead, [laughs] you know? Like, it takes a while. Um, and that's something where you, you grow so much, and you become just a diff- not a fully different person, but you just evolve as a human, obviously, as you get older. And, you know, that's something where all I ever knew was this. Like, I went to school. I even finished my degree. I have a shitty accounting degree that I can use as toilet paper 'cause it didn't do fuck all for me in my life. But, like, actually, when I was going to school, it gave me the contrast and context to actually appreciate what I did even more, which is something kind of funny. So I thank going to school, but also, like, it didn't itself do anything for me other than provide something that was a distraction [laughs] for, you know, me just wanting, then, the thing I wanted to do more. But that made me want to do this even more because I saw the other side. I was like, "Oh my goodness," like, "that's that life? Like, I'm so unhappy doing that. Like, I can do it, but it's not ... That's not how I wanna live my life," right?
30. CWChris Williamson
  Hmm.
1:27:06 – 1:35:51
Why Creators Burn Out So Fast
1. CWChris Williamson
  I have a theory about this. I'd be interested to know what you think. How many bands or comedians do you know of that have suffered with creator burnout or something similar?
2. NNNik Nocturnal
  Oh, I think majority of them in a capacity, no matter what.
3. CWChris Williamson
  To the point that they've had to take a break from doing the band at all?
4. NNNik Nocturnal
  A few of them, yeah. I think-
5. CWChris Williamson
  Some.
6. NNNik Nocturnal
  Yeah, yeah, some.
7. CWChris Williamson
  How many creators that make YouTube videos do you know that have done the same thing? "I'm stepping away from YouTube. I need to take a break." Ryan Trahan-
8. NNNik Nocturnal
  Yep
9. CWChris Williamson
  ... just fired his entire team. I saw him and his wife walking down the street the other day, and he was like, "Yeah, man, it's just me and my iPhone, and I'm gonna be doing 12-hour days," like logging all of this things. "I didn't wanna manage people anymore." Here's my point.
10. NNNik Nocturnal
  Yeah.
11. CWChris Williamson
  Creator burnout happens to YouTubers and podcasters and Instagram people at a rate so much higher than you would anticipate if you just heard what their jobs were.
12. NNNik Nocturnal
  Yeah.
13. CWChris Williamson
  So you go, okay, so on one side of the table, you've got bands that have to be on tour all the time. They're away from their families. They miss their kids growing up. They don't spend time with their partner.
14. NNNik Nocturnal
  Yeah.
15. CWChris Williamson
  They're in sweaty tour buses. Sometimes they're nice. Sometimes they're not nice. They've got places to be. They have to travel the world, the time zones, the sleep deprivation, all of this shit, the pressure, the highs, the lows, the pull back, all that, the d- unpredictability of whether the band's gonna make it, all the rest of it. Like-
16. NNNik Nocturnal
  Yeah
17. CWChris Williamson
  ... if you look at that as a lifestyle, if you just say what it's like, it doesn't sound... The same for comedians, the same for DJs. DJs are a little bit different, but the same for comedians. You go, you're on the road all the time. You're with one other person who's your support and maybe a tour manager, if you're lucky.
18. NNNik Nocturnal
  Yeah.
19. CWChris Williamson
  You go to these random places and say these things, and you've got the pressure of whether or not you're gonna perform. And what do you do if you're a content creator? Well, you do it from the comfort of your home.
20. NNNik Nocturnal
  Yep.
21. CWChris Williamson
  You get to have dinner delivered to your house every single day. You've got Uber Eats.
22. NNNik Nocturnal
  Hell yeah, Uber Eats.
23. CWChris Williamson
  You can go to the gym in the morning if you want to. Yeah, sure, maybe you don't get to see sunlight that much or whatever, but like you're doing what you love from the comfort of your home. You don't even need to put pants on. Like this is the dream.
24. NNNik Nocturnal
  Mm-hmm.
25. CWChris Williamson
  The objective difficulty of your job and my job-
26. NNNik Nocturnal
  Yeah
27. CWChris Williamson
  ... way lower-
28. NNNik Nocturnal
  Yeah
29. CWChris Williamson
  ... than it is of something like comedy or being in a band.
30. NNNik Nocturnal
  Exactly.
1:35:51 – 1:40:34
The Power of the “F*ck You” Pivot
1. NNNik Nocturnal
  you, bro.
2. CWChris Williamson
  I, I wrote this essay a couple of weeks ago, The Fuck You Family. So, uh, there's three different stages that people can say fuck you at.
3. NNNik Nocturnal
  Okay.
4. CWChris Williamson
  Fuck you money.
5. NNNik Nocturnal
  Okay.
6. CWChris Williamson
  Don't need to ever worry about what something costs.
7. NNNik Nocturnal
  Yeah, yeah.
8. CWChris Williamson
  You're not even that beholden to the limitations of going to work. You don't need to have a boss. Wonderful. Fuck you freedom-
9. NNNik Nocturnal
  Mm
10. CWChris Williamson
  ... which is maybe you're on a ranch somewhere out here in Texas. You kind of don't even need to adhere to the laws if you keep yourself quiet enough. It's, uh, usually facilitated by fuck you money, but it's a little bit different too.
11. NNNik Nocturnal
  Yeah.
12. CWChris Williamson
  And sometimes you can get it in a different sort of a way. You could imagine the van life people have got fuck you freedom without fuck you money.
13. NNNik Nocturnal
  Mm.
14. CWChris Williamson
  But there's a third level, which is fuck you family.
15. NNNik Nocturnal
  Mm-hmm.
16. CWChris Williamson
  And fuck you family is realizing that all of the games that you played to try and get acclaim and respect and recognition from the people in your industry, admiration from the people you admire, all that stuff, kind of doesn't matter anymore because the only people that I need to care about are in the bed next to me or in the room-
17. NNNik Nocturnal
  Yeah
18. CWChris Williamson
  ... across the hall, and they think that I'm the coolest, richest, smartest, most heroic person on the planet. So as long as my wife and my babies love me and think that I'm awesome, fuck you.
19. NNNik Nocturnal
  Yeah.
20. CWChris Williamson
  And that I think explains this, you could call it just the dad pivot-
21. NNNik Nocturnal
  Mm
22. CWChris Williamson
  ... um, that a lot of guys go through, and it's sick to see PewDie do it too. You know, someone who really was sending the living shit out of it, like at the top of his game-
23. NNNik Nocturnal
  Mm
24. CWChris Williamson
  ... to just be like, "I'm good, man. I'm out."
25. NNNik Nocturnal
  I'm out, dude.
26. CWChris Williamson
  I can't wait for that. I'm so ready to do this-
27. NNNik Nocturnal
  Yeah
28. CWChris Williamson
  ... from a place of-
29. NNNik Nocturnal
  Peace
30. CWChris Williamson
  ... I'm out.
1:40:34 – 1:53:44
Are Streaming Platforms Exploiting Artists?
1. NNNik Nocturnal
  you know what I mean? It's-
2. CWChris Williamson
  What do you, what do you think's-
3. NNNik Nocturnal
  Yeah
4. CWChris Williamson
  ... happening with the state of Spotify streaming stuff at the moment? Because there was a, a long time, and still is, of-
5. NNNik Nocturnal
  Mm
6. CWChris Williamson
  ... artists being quite disgruntled with-
7. NNNik Nocturnal
  Yeah
8. CWChris Williamson
  ... a variety of different streaming services. Tidal seem to be pretty good in the eyes of at least artists.
9. NNNik Nocturnal
  Mm.
10. CWChris Williamson
  But who the fuck uses Tidal? Um-
11. NNNik Nocturnal
  I, I don't know, I don't know the single person in my life who uses Tidal.
12. CWChris Williamson
  You know what I mean? Um, so what, what's the sort of overview of how artists and streaming platforms are relating at the moment?
13. NNNik Nocturnal
  Uh, every- I mean, everyone always is pissed, and you know, often [laughs] like-
14. CWChris Williamson
  [laughs] That's just, that's just a summary of the world though.
15. NNNik Nocturnal
  That's the summary, yeah. Particularly with the music, like, that is one of probably the biggest complaints in the music industry of, like, streaming doesn't pay enough. Um, and it's, it's tricky 'cause yeah, Spotify pay more, what the fuck? But at the same time, a lot of bands also are on contracts, and a lot of, on those contracts they're now realizing maybe, hey, they didn't, they signed off, like, all of their royalties or all of their, you know, streaming revenue or, you know, hey, you still have, like, your $5 million, like, uh, loan you gotta pay back, uh, before you actually get any streaming revenue. So, like, I think a lot of those stories get pushed extremely hard with those bands and they're like, you know, there'll be a band that's like, "I have, like, 50 million streams and I made, like, 20 bucks on my song," and it's like, okay, well, yeah, Spotify should pay more, but there's other stuff involved with that.
16. CWChris Williamson
  Who paid for that record?
17. NNNik Nocturnal
  Yeah, ex- yeah. Like, there's-
18. CWChris Williamson
  Who paid for the promo?
19. NNNik Nocturnal
  Uh, uh-huh. Yeah.
20. CWChris Williamson
  Who paid for the video?
21. NNNik Nocturnal
  Exactly.
22. CWChris Williamson
  Who paid for your shoot?
23. NNNik Nocturnal
  Yeah.
24. CWChris Williamson
  Who paid for, who fronted the merch?
25. NNNik Nocturnal
  Well, I think-
26. CWChris Williamson
  Who fronted the tour?
27. NNNik Nocturnal
  I think bands are now becoming more aware of deals. 'Cause, you know, back in the day it's like, "Oh, I signed to a record label. Oh, my God, we made it, we did it, we signed whatever piece of paper. Oh, my God, $200,000. We're all rich, let's go drink." You know what I mean? "Let's go buy a car." In- instead of realizing like, "Oh, we, we, we owe a lo- like, we have to pay this back, guys." You know, like [laughs] the capacity, like-
28. CWChris Williamson
  Do you remember that documentary that was done about 30 Seconds to Mars when they had to make their album?
29. NNNik Nocturnal
  No.
30. CWChris Williamson
  Bro.
1:53:44 – 1:56:16
How Song DNA is Improving Credits
1. NNNik Nocturnal
  taken a bit.
2. CWChris Williamson
  Have you seen Song DNA on Spotify yet?
3. NNNik Nocturnal
  No. What's Song DNA?
4. CWChris Williamson
  So I've only just seen this for the first time.
5. NNNik Nocturnal
  Okay.
6. CWChris Williamson
  Okay? So I decided to do it on Can You Feel My Heart.
7. NNNik Nocturnal
  Okay. Yeah, yeah.
8. CWChris Williamson
  So if you go onto the track, and then at the, like below the lyrics and the, about the song and all the rest of it is Song DNA.
9. NNNik Nocturnal
  Okay.
10. CWChris Williamson
  So if I click Explore, this is all of the different people. So this is like Ted Jensen, the mastering engineer.
11. NNNik Nocturnal
  Oh, the songwriter, right?
12. CWChris Williamson
  Dan Graziano, the editor, Annie Skates, a contractor, and then like Matt Nichols, drums, and then how many collaborators and how many songs he's on. Like Matt Nichols, so like-
13. NNNik Nocturnal
  Shit
14. CWChris Williamson
  ... if I open up-
15. NNNik Nocturnal
  Yeah
16. CWChris Williamson
  ... like, uh, Jordan Fish, composer, three roles. So like, and now I can go into, worked with 275 artists, recorded 473 songs, top songs with pr- like-
17. NNNik Nocturnal
  Mm
18. CWChris Williamson
  ... and now I can go in there, and this is all of his stuff. So this is kind of like a matrix or a web-
19. NNNik Nocturnal
  Yeah
20. CWChris Williamson
  ... where you can explore how all of the different people-
21. NNNik Nocturnal
  Mm
22. CWChris Williamson
  ... are associated with different stuff.
23. NNNik Nocturnal
  'Cause before, yeah, before it was just you would right-click and it'd say song credits.
24. CWChris Williamson
  Credits.
25. NNNik Nocturnal
  And they were s- they were s- oh, and they updated it now. Before it was so pathetic. It was just performer, writer, and producer.
26. CWChris Williamson
  Yeah.
27. NNNik Nocturnal
  And most of the time it would be glitched and not always super accurate anyways. But like if you were a co-producer, for example, it wouldn't even show.
28. CWChris Williamson
  Yeah.
29. NNNik Nocturnal
  So it was just the main producer. It was just the performers and whoever else has primary if you wanna-
30. CWChris Williamson
  Mm-hmm
1:56:16 – 2:08:59
What’s Next For the Alt Music Scene?
1. CWChris Williamson
  What is the worst thing, do you think, about... Oh, actually-
2. NNNik Nocturnal
  Hmm
3. CWChris Williamson
  ... what's, what's your prediction for the sort of next five years or so of alternative music? Are you-- what are you worried about and what are you positive about?
4. NNNik Nocturnal
  Ooh, that's a big question, man. It's... Okay, what I'm positive about is I think the scene is becoming more and moreGenreless, which I get excited about because then the focus is not, "Hey, can we make a deathcore or a metalcore or a pop, you know, popcore, whatever the fuck banger?" It's, "Can we just make a good song?" [laughs] You know? Like, and, you know, I love that because then there's gonna be a higher quantity of good music. I think that's always kind of my, my end goal with it is just like I-- whatever route leads to like can we just get more actual good shit that doesn't suck. Like, that's all I really care. So I feel like the scene is going that way in a, in a healthy way.
5. CWChris Williamson
  Mm.
6. NNNik Nocturnal
  The bad side of that is I think also because metal is [laughs] the good and the bad. Metal's becoming more popular than ever, but now it's also almost, like, cool to like it. So-
7. CWChris Williamson
  Mm
8. NNNik Nocturnal
  ... it's being more gamified. It's becoming more of, like, a specific structure of how to write, like, an Octane Core song, right? And that's no shot at Octane because Octane being metal radio or, well, rock radio actually it has breakdowns now. That's sick. You know? It has heavy parts. It has screaming, right? Like, that's something where I'm like, that's, that's cool now that people would go there before and just listen to like, "Hell yeah, brother." You know what I mean? And, like, have a good time with, like... Respect to Nickelback, but with Nickelback or with, like, Creed or with, like, classic rock. Now you're hearing, like, the Bad Omens, the Sorta Sleep Tokens, the, the Spiritbox and stuff like that on there, right? And that's really good to see. But also the-- it, it becoming much bigger, meaning that there's more industry and labels and monetization in this space that maybe didn't exist as much.
9. CWChris Williamson
  So there's more of an incentive for people to-
10. NNNik Nocturnal
  To get-
11. CWChris Williamson
  ... do fuckery.
12. NNNik Nocturnal
  To do f- to do fuckery and to be like, "Oh, well, this style is big, so just make-- create, you know, create seven bands that's just that style." You know what I mean? Like, Octane Core is legitimately a s-
13. CWChris Williamson
  What is Octane Core? Who would be in that?
14. NNNik Nocturnal
  Um, like... And again, this isn't a derogatory like, uh, of like, "Oh, you're Oct-" It's, it's great-
15. CWChris Williamson
  The people who are derivative of this might be-
16. NNNik Nocturnal
  Yes, it-
17. CWChris Williamson
  It might be derogatory. Yeah
18. NNNik Nocturnal
  ... yes, exactly. Uh, but like, uh, like Bad Wolves is a big one. Um, F-Five Finger Death Punch-
19. CWChris Williamson
  Okay
20. NNNik Nocturnal
  ... for sure. That-- they-- that is the best description [laughs] of that one. Um, but, um, it, it also leeways. Again, like you, you'll see Bad Omens in there. You'll see Spiritbox. You'll see, like, Bill Murray even to a point, right? And he's kind of more extreme and fun, right? Um, but it's basically music that is... It's radio-friendly active rock or slash alternative metal, and the boundaries is what makes it interesting now is that now you can have double kick. Now you can have screaming.
21. CWChris Williamson
  Mm.
22. NNNik Nocturnal
  Now you can tune down your guitars.
23. CWChris Williamson
  And get away with more.
24. NNNik Nocturnal
  And get-- You can get away with more. Exactly. So that's what is cool about what Octane Core is. But because of that, it is very for-formulaic.
25. CWChris Williamson
  Yeah.
26. NNNik Nocturnal
  And a lot of bands see that and see the success and be like, "Wait, my band can make breakdowns and get on radio? What the-"
27. CWChris Williamson
  That's the route to fame.
28. NNNik Nocturnal
  That, that's the route to money. [laughs] Yeah, you know? And, and definitely fame to a capacity where it's like, "Oh, sick." So that's something where it comes with the good and bad. Again, heavy music is getting more popular. Great, and that's getting injected in a way where bands are becoming more creative with it, but then also bands are becoming more sterile with it and being like, "This is-- Oh, well, let's just do this. It's easy."
29. CWChris Williamson
  Samey copycat.
30. NNNik Nocturnal
  Samey copycat. Just w-work... W-write the same chorus every time. Use the exact same melody. Use the same lyrics with slight d-differentials so we don't get sued, you know, by the other band and, like, let's all try to be Linkin Park again, you know?

Episode duration: 2:18:56

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