How To Argue With Someone | Buster Benson | Modern Wisdom Podcast 122

1. 0:00 – 0:59

   Why arguments backfire: tug-of-war, fight-or-flight, and the “battle context”

   1. BBBuster Benson0:00

      ... it's considered like backfire effect or the boomerang effect where in a particular context, and if the context is a battle or a tug-of-war or, you know, you're leaning back, you know, and, and if someone pulls on their side of the rope, you don't, you don't, you don't like, "Oh, cool, let's go over there."

   2. CWChris Williamson0:14

      (laughs)

   3. BBBuster Benson0:14

      You're like, "No, I'm gonna pull on my side of the rope harder." (laughs) Uh, and that's just the game, right? That's the game you're playing in that context. It's, um, you know, it comes from fight or flight. It comes from our survival instinct to be like, "Hey, if I'm losing, that doesn't mean I surrender, that means I fight harder." Um, and, you know, psychologically, it doesn't make sense, um, in a r- if you just look at it from like, "Oh, you know, why am I not hearing the information and, um, updating my mental model about reality, um, and then instead choosing to fight back?" Because oftentimes, your survival is at stake, at least historically, you know?

   4. CWChris Williamson0:48

      (wind blowing) You ready to go?

   5. BBBuster Benson0:54

      Ready.

   6. CWChris Williamson0:54

      Lovely. Well, what if I'm not ready? Maybe we should have an argument about it. (laughs)

   7. BBBuster Benson0:58

      (laughs) Sure, we can.

2. 0:59 – 2:09

   What the episode is about: the art of productive disagreement

   1. CWChris Williamson0:59

      Uh, we, we can indeed, and we're going to today. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back. I'm joined by Buster Benson. Buster, welcome to the show.

   2. BBBuster Benson1:07

      Thank you. I'm so glad to be here.

   3. CWChris Williamson1:08

      As you might have heard, we've been practicing our arguments ready for you to tune in today, but we are talking about the art of productive disagreement today.

   4. BBBuster Benson1:17

      Mm-hmm.

   5. CWChris Williamson1:17

      Hmm.

   6. BBBuster Benson1:18

      Yes. (laughs)

   7. CWChris Williamson1:20

      Or are we?

   8. BBBuster Benson1:20

      A nice easy topic.

   9. CWChris Williamson1:21

      Or maybe we talk about something else? Maybe I argue with you and we talk about something else.

   10. BBBuster Benson1:25

       I'm open for whatever you got.

   11. CWChris Williamson1:26

       (laughs)

   12. BBBuster Benson1:26

       You know, I love having a good disagreement. Uh, part of the re- you know, the most interesting part of research for this book was basically approaching disagreements in all parts of my life, and (laughs) you know, I can tell you that that has led to, you know, all kinds of just like weird side effects of its own. So, um, I like going down those rabbit holes and, and seeing where they end up. But yeah, so if you have any like pressing like, like, "Why is this thing so hard to talk about in public?" we can talk about that. Um, but yeah, the, uh, I'm happy to also just like give a quick summary of the book too, if that's helpful.

   13. CWChris Williamson1:57

       Amazing. Yeah. I think I've got, uh, I've had some difficult discussions recently with people, not difficult as in we were at odds, but more, um, why is it difficult for us to have this discussion when it's-

3. 2:09 – 5:07

   Why Buster wrote 'Why Are We Yelling?' and what it aims to do

   1. BBBuster Benson2:09

      Yeah.

   2. CWChris Williamson2:09

      ... not in as much of a collaborative environment? So, uh, your new book, Why Are We Yelling?, why did you write it and what's it about?

   3. BBBuster Benson2:16

      Yes. Okay. So I wrote it because I really needed to read this book. (laughs) I think there's a lot of people that go out and, you know, write the book that, you know, they, about what they know. Um, my, my career has been in project development, and engineering, and entrepreneurship, and, you know, I was at Amazon, on Twitter, and Slack, and had a couple of my own startups, ran a bar for a while. I just, all kinds of random things. Um, and so I have a pretty personal relationship to arguing and disagreement that I'm, you know, I think everybody has (laughs) um, in their own way. Um, but it has been my job for a long time to facilitate sort of dig- diverse groups of people that have different incentives, different goals, different skill levels, and helping them all come together and get something done. Um, so that's sort of, you know, I've been interested in it for a long time in a professional sense. Um, and, you know, I think part of what had came out of that was, uh, um, an acknowledgement that we're biased. We have blind spots. We don't see everything. We oftentimes fight for being right instead of fighting for, you know, the truth. Um, and we don't really have, you know, as our, in an argument, when our heart rate starts to spike and our blood pressure starts to, you know, go up, our capacity to reason goes down, our capa- our interest in collaboration goes down, all these things. Uh, well, basically it's like here's the time when you need all these skills and we're gonna just remove them all from you, uh, very conveniently and turn you back into like the fight or flight, you know, animal that you, you were billions of years ago or whatever. Um, so my, my goal in writing this book was to take all of the knowledge in the world (laughs) from all the experts, 'cause there are so many books about this, about negotiation, about persuasion, about rationality, about using, um, you know, there's just like, there's a lot of stuff out there, and it's all very good. It's all very... some of it's really dense, and some of, some of it's really useful. But it's really hard to understand how that applies to our regular lives, and how do we use it at the dinner table? How do we use that in a one-on-one? How do we use that when we're fighting with our spouse or our, you know, our partner? How do we use that when we're, you know, just frustrated and angry and we have, we're tired and, you know, when everything seems to be falling apart? All these things that like seem to compromise us and, um, and so I just decided to take a deep dive, immerse myself in all that stuff, and try to synthesize it, 'cause that's what I love to do. I like to synthesize things and make it practical. So, that was the hope.

   4. CWChris Williamson4:37

      I think that that's one of the most interesting things that we can do, especially as we get older and we can draw from multiple different bodies of knowledge, different subject areas. (coughs) Intellectual hero of mine, Naval Ravikant, talks about the fact that he thinks joining these things is one of the greatest pleasures that there is in life. And I have to say-

   5. BBBuster Benson4:54

      Mm-hmm.

   6. CWChris Williamson4:55

      ... that the same is true for me. Interestingly, I spoke to Professor Paul Bloom from the University of-

   7. BBBuster Benson4:59

      Hmm.

   8. CWChris Williamson4:59

      ... Yale, um, uh, the other day, and he recently-

   9. BBBuster Benson5:02

      Mm-hmm.

   10. CWChris Williamson5:02

       ... wrote a book called, uh, Against Empathy: The Case for Rational Compassion.

   11. BBBuster Benson5:07

       Right. Okay. Yep.

4. 5:07 – 6:27

   Why “pure rationality” doesn’t work everywhere: disciplines need context

   1. CWChris Williamson5:07

      Um, and it s- it sounds like you're pushing towards rationality here. How unbiased can we make ourselves? How appropriate can we make our responses?

   2. BBBuster Benson5:16

      Not, not necessarily. So I wouldn't... I'm not pro-rationality or against it. I think that they are, they're disciplines. You know, rationality is a discipline. Empathy is a discipline. Um, persuasion is a discipline. Um, we need to find the thing that's actually the most practical for us to use. Um, and I think that any of these disciplines when taken to an extreme and applied, you know, they could be or are very useful in a very constrained sort of sphere of, um, sort of debate, right? Like if, if you wanna be, apply science to all of your arguments, you can do that, but you need a laboratory. You need research grants. Um, if you wanna apply empathy to all of your disagreements, you really need to be super healthy and emotionally like (laughs) sort of thriving in a way that you're, you could actually spend all this stuff.

   3. CWChris Williamson6:01

      Mm-hmm.

   4. BBBuster Benson6:01

      Um, and if you wanna use rationality, you need to be talking to someone that also-... you know, wants to play by that rule.

   5. CWChris Williamson6:07

      Mm.

   6. BBBuster Benson6:07

      Right? You can't take rationality to a basketball court and play-

   7. CWChris Williamson6:10

      (laughs)

   8. BBBuster Benson6:11

      ... you know, play- play basketball. You have to take it to a rationalist and- (laughs) and then you're sparring. But, so I'm not, like, for or against them. I think there's a time and a place and a context for all these things. Um, but there is also this huge context of our everyday lives that, you know, where these things don't necessarily work.

5. 6:27 – 8:48

   Defining disagreement: ‘a difference in perspective you find unacceptable’

   1. CWChris Williamson6:27

      I understand. So, we're talking about disagreement and the art of productive disagreement, specifically. At some point, did you- did you define what you consider to be an argument or a disagreement?

   2. BBBuster Benson6:39

      Yes. Yes. So, I have a, you know, an official definition, which is, "A disagreement is basically a difference between two perspectives that you find unacceptable." So, it could be, I think A is better than B, you think B is better than A. If we're both cool with that, then no disagreement. If one of us thinks, "A, I don't- I don't think it's- it's okay for you to think that A is better than B, because B is definitely better than A," um, then we have disagreement. (laughs) Um, so it's really the unacceptable part. It's like, what is it that- that's what sparks us into the, you know, the need to prove someone right, or the need to actually con- converse with them about this.

   3. CWChris Williamson7:14

      Mm. It comes from a good place, I think, sometimes.

   4. BBBuster Benson7:17

      Mm-hmm. Yeah.

   5. CWChris Williamson7:17

      It's that we want, we think, "You, person A, would benefit from my view, person B. If you had my view, your world would be better and my world would be better. Therefore, I should get you to do it."

   6. BBBuster Benson7:29

      Yeah. Yeah. There's- there's a selfish aspect to it, and there's a selfless aspect to it. You know, this is how we learn about the world, right? We have to go out and talk to people that know things we don't know, and we have to take their knowledge and link it up to what we do know, and that's inevitably gonna cause differences of perspective. That- that's what we want. We want to go talk to people that know things we don't know. Um, the process of integrating differences is a skill that we have not, um, been taught (laughs) very well. We haven't been taught ways to... Like, we- we- we tend more to the anxiety we feel about like, "Okay, well, I've got this B ver- is better than A thing in my head. I'm not ready to change that yet. That makes me uncomfortable. How can I mash their version of things into my head in a way that I can keep that?"

   7. CWChris Williamson8:16

      Mm.

   8. BBBuster Benson8:17

      Which oftentimes requires you to say, "Well, A, this person thinks A is better than B, um, but they're wrong. And so, I'm gonna put that ... That's how I'm gonna, like, link it up. I'm gonna put it into like, there are some people out there that are wrong, and then there's me." (laughs)

   9. CWChris Williamson8:28

      (laughs)

   10. BBBuster Benson8:29

       Right? And it- now it's co- coherent, um, versus trying to actually decide, like, which one is the best, um, or- or is there a possibility that they're both, you know, it's okay for you to think that and me to think this, and that's totally fine.

   11. CWChris Williamson8:42

       I understand. So, do you have a- a framework that people can follow, that they can look at? Where- where do we start with the book?

6. 8:48 – 11:04

   The book’s framework begins: noticing anxiety triggers and internal voices

   1. BBBuster Benson8:48

      Yes. Yes. Yes. So, um, this book is framed around eight things to try, and meant to be things that, you know, are each in their own, um, a big practice, a- a big way to ... And it pulls together lots of experts and a lot of research and my own personal experiences, and, um, all of that into something that's like, "Hey, try this." And those eight things are, um, I mean, you know, we don't have to cover them all, but they are- they're a thing... The first one is watching how anxiety sparks in your head. So like, when you enter a disagreement, um, try to notice what sparks that anxiety, so that you can work backwards and think, "Okay, well, what was threatened? What was my- my value or my identity or my feeling, or what felt threatened?" And then you can use that to, um, ask that person like, "Did you mean to threaten this or did you- were you saying that for some other reason?" Um, because most disagreements are oftentimes mistaken threats. They- they're not actually trying to threaten you. They're actually just ranting about something, or they're s- you know, trying to say something, but they're saying it in a very sloppy way.

   2. CWChris Williamson9:48

      Mm-hmm.

   3. BBBuster Benson9:48

      Um, so that's one.

   4. CWChris Williamson9:50

      Mm-hmm.

   5. BBBuster Benson9:50

      Um, and I have like, tips around how to do that with like, disagreement journaling and- and sort of private journaling and that kind of thing. Number two is to talk to your internal voices. So, a lot of us think with our- you know, with voices in our head, and we- we- we find ourselves sometimes like, when we're- when our blood pressure is up, we get angry, and we tell people to shut up, and we just try to stop the argument. And when we're with, uh, friends or we're at work, we're trying to be more professional, we use like, logic. We're like, "Okay, well, what's the evidence for this? And how would you prove that? And let's see what happens." Um, and there's another one that when those two things don't work, um, is like, "Oh, I just- I'm gonna opt out. I'm gonna avoid this conversation because there's no point in me talking to you. You're not gonna listen to my reason. I don't wanna be overbearing, and- or you're being overbearing to me. I'm just gonna escape. I'm gonna avoid everything." Um, and I call that the voice of avoidance, which is the one that, um, tends to have creeped into our lives the most, turns out. Like, there's so much in our lives where we just decide, you know, to avoid the problem, um, for some reason or another. Sometimes it's because we wanna keep the peace. Sometimes it's because it's- you think it's useless, and that's where the frustration comes in, was like, we o- we would want to be effective here, and we're choosing not to. That sort of annoys us.

   6. CWChris Williamson11:03

      Mm.

7. 11:04 – 16:47

   Practice 3—‘honest bias’: fix effects of bias without diagnosing people

   1. BBBuster Benson11:04

      Um, and so really giving names to these voices and- and starting to think about which ones talk up when and when are they most applicable is one of those chapters. Um, chapter three is to develop honest bias. So, um, really thinking about cognitive bias and how you, um, can both see it in yourself and, um, learn to see it- see- see how it creates, um, problems around you, and how to address the problems without having to necessarily diagnose everyone as biased, um, 'cause that's sort of what tends to happen is like, we point- we go around trying to say like, "You're biased for this reason, and you're biased for this reason." Meanwhile, the things are just getting worse and worse. I- I- I advocate for just like, focus on the effects of bias and try to fix the damage that's being caused, because that's something that's tangible. It's, you know, it's right in front of you. It's also the thing that's hurting people. Um, and then over time, you can sort of work backwards into, you know, um, what caused this? How do we prevent it from happening in the first place? But, um, so those are three that we start the book with, and then there's five more, but I won't go into them 'cause I've been talking a long time. (laughs)

   2. CWChris Williamson12:09

      (laughs) No. Hey, I'm- I'm absolutely-

   3. BBBuster Benson12:11

      (laughs)

   4. CWChris Williamson12:11

      I'm absolutely loving it. I'm sure that the listeners will be as well. I think it'd be ... Once we've had a little chat about those, I think we- we definitely-

   5. BBBuster Benson12:16

      Yeah.

   6. CWChris Williamson12:16

      ... go through the remaining chapters.

   7. BBBuster Benson12:17

      Yeah.

   8. CWChris Williamson12:17

      'Cause I don't wanna- I don't wanna leave that open loop. Um-

   9. BBBuster Benson12:20

      Yeah. (laughs)

   10. CWChris Williamson12:20

       ... one of the- one of the interesting things you said there, I- I certainly know that for myself, as someone who-... likes to think about things in a more of a cerebral way, um, and you can sometimes break down a disagreement, um, very cerebrally, you know, just go back through Thinking Fast and Slow and start just picking up Daniel Kahneman quotes and studies-

   11. BBBuster Benson12:43

       Yeah. (laughs)

   12. CWChris Williamson12:43

       ... and throwing them at someone, going like, "No."

   13. BBBuster Benson12:45

       Yep. Yep, yep, yep.

   14. CWChris Williamson12:46

       Like, "Self-serving bias." Uh-

   15. BBBuster Benson12:48

       Mm-hmm.

   16. CWChris Williamson12:48

       ... "Argument from authority." Like, you just... (laughs)

   17. BBBuster Benson12:50

       (laughs)

   18. CWChris Williamson12:50

       Do you know what I mean? And it's like-

   19. BBBuster Benson12:52

       Love that.

   20. CWChris Williamson12:52

       ... "Well, hang on a second." Like, you- you've totally bypassed the actual purpose of using biases, uh, and working out-

   21. BBBuster Benson12:57

       (laughs)

   22. CWChris Williamson12:57

       ... where logical fallacies come from, which is to use them to progress the argument forward, not to break the fourth wall of the argument and turn it into this weird sort of dick-measuring competition about-

   23. BBBuster Benson13:07

       Right.

   24. CWChris Williamson13:07

       ... who knows the most biases.

   25. BBBuster Benson13:09

       Right, right, right. Yeah. That's, that's the danger I would try to avoid. And, you know, f- full disclosure, like, that's how, that's where I started too. You know, as a PM at Twitter, we were always, we were obsessed with the list of biases, and we would always try to, like, pick them out in other people's arguments, and it was a game. Um-

   26. CWChris Williamson13:24

       What's a, what's PM? Sorry.

   27. BBBuster Benson13:26

       Oh, a product manager.

   28. CWChris Williamson13:27

       Okay.

   29. BBBuster Benson13:28

       So I was, I was a pro-

   30. CWChris Williamson13:28

       What's, briefly, what does that mean?
8. 16:47 – 21:27

   Why proof doesn’t persuade: ego threat, doubling down, and choosing ‘friend mode’

   1. CWChris Williamson16:47

      So, there's an Eckhart Tolle quote, um, from The Power of Now, where he talks about conceding the, uh, conceding that your point is wrong in an argument is tantamount to the ego's destruction.

   2. BBBuster Benson16:59

      (laughs)

   3. CWChris Williamson16:59

      And I often think about that when I'm having a discussion with someone, and the listeners at home will know this as well. You're having a discussion with someone, and you think, "Right, this is irrefutable proof that what you're saying is wrong," and they don't change their mind. They're like, "No, hang on a second. Like, I've just, I've literally, I've given you it. It's there, there's the, there's the thing."

   4. BBBuster Benson17:18

      (laughs)

   5. CWChris Williamson17:18

      And rather than that, they dig their heels in further, and they double down-

   6. BBBuster Benson17:21

      Right.

   7. CWChris Williamson17:21

      ... on that position.

   8. BBBuster Benson17:22

      Right, right, right. Right.

   9. CWChris Williamson17:22

      Is that the sort of thing that you, that you discovered in that?

   10. BBBuster Benson17:25

       Absolutely. Absolutely. That's, you know, it's considered like backfire effect or the boomerang effect, where, um, you know, we don't... In a particular context, and if the context is a battle or a tug of war or, you know, you're leaning back, like, and if someone pulls on their side of the rope, you don't, you don't, you don't, like, "Oh, cool, let's go over there." You're like, "No, I'm gonna pull on my side of the rope harder."

   11. CWChris Williamson17:46

       (laughs)

   12. BBBuster Benson17:46

       (laughs) Uh, and that's just the game, right? That's the game you're playing in that context. It's, um, you know, it comes from fight or flight, it comes from our survival instinct to be like, "Hey, if I'm losing, that doesn't mean I surrender, that means I fight harder." Um, and, you know, psychologically, it doesn't make sense, um, in a, if you just look at it from like, "Oh, you know, why am I not hearing the information and, um, updating my mental model about reality, um, and instead choosing to fight back?" Because oftentimes your survival is at stake, at least historically, you know?

   13. CWChris Williamson18:18

       It feels like that, right?

   14. BBBuster Benson18:18

       Evolutionarily. Right.

   15. CWChris Williamson18:19

       You know, anyone who's been in a really heated argument knows that, that feeling when it's-

   16. BBBuster Benson18:24

       Right.

   17. CWChris Williamson18:25

       ... you really get going and you almost...... you're no longer listening. It's a game of tennis. It's a verbal-

   18. BBBuster Benson18:30

       Mm-hmm.

   19. CWChris Williamson18:30

       ... game of tennis. You wait for that person to s- finish speaking, or sometimes you don't, and you just, single-minded, you got the blinkers on like a horse in the race and you, you're just going for it.

   20. BBBuster Benson18:40

       Yep, yep, yep. And we're all, yeah, it's, it's, it's like really hardwired in our brains, that we are really, uh, we benefited a lot from it over time, um, because there are so many arguments that can't be resolved with reason, you know. If, if something is like, "Hey, you know, I want to have my house right here on this hill, and you want it too, but I'm bigger, I have more s- I have, you know, I have more str- swords and soldiers on my side, so I get to have my house here," um, or you know, like, "I want these goats. These are my goats," (laughs) you know. You don't, you don't resort to property rights, you don't take it to the court of law, you just settle it right there.

   21. CWChris Williamson19:14

       Mm-hmm.

   22. BBBuster Benson19:15

       Um, and so this is how we settle most of things. Like, if you look at a two-year-old and, that has their favorite toy, they don't, you know, reason about why they should keep the toy. They just yank it and start screaming. Um, these are, they work (laughs) .

   23. CWChris Williamson19:27

       (laughs)

   24. BBBuster Benson19:28

       In, in a pre-verbal, um, sense even. Even a precognitive sense, they work.

   25. CWChris Williamson19:32

       Mm-hmm.

   26. BBBuster Benson19:32

       Um, so they're, they're deeply down there, but, you know, what, what gets us into that battle mode is interesting, because we don't have to operate in that battle mode all the time. We don't... And most of the time we're in that mode, we're not actually fighting for our survival. We're fighting for something stupid (laughs) -

   27. CWChris Williamson19:48

       (laughs)

   28. BBBuster Benson19:48

       ... or something very abstract, um, and even if we're wrong, we're not gonna die, we're not gonna be kicked out, we're not gonna, you know, starve in the, in the cold, you know. So, um, we should look at like, that's why I start with, like, where does anxiety spark and sort of listen to the internal voices because that's the point where there's this crossroads. You could be like, "Am I gonna go down, am I gonna turn on my battle mode or am I gonna turn on my friend mode?"

   29. CWChris Williamson20:12

       (laughs)

   30. BBBuster Benson20:12

       Um, "Or am I gonna turn on some other mode?" Um, and you don't have to go into that mode.
9. 21:27 – 26:58

   Long-form conversation as an antidote: why podcasts enable nuance

   1. CWChris Williamson21:27

      Yeah. The conversation I had with, uh, Professor Paul Bloom from the University of Yale, we finished talking about why we think that, uh, the podcasting platform is, um, so enjoyed and seeing such growth at the moment, and it's a cliché to say it's the fastest-growing platform on wor- on Earth-

   2. BBBuster Benson21:44

      (laughs)

   3. CWChris Williamson21:44

      ... after Twitch TV. I mean, like, yeah, yeah, yeah, whatever, but (clears throat) is that just 'cause of AirPods or 'cause Joe Rogan's a boss or whatever, whatever? Um, but I think one of the main things is that it's, it's one of the few places where you can have two plus two equaling five with regards to a conversation.

   4. BBBuster Benson22:00

      Mm-hmm.

   5. CWChris Williamson22:00

      You know, I don't want... The best podcast is some, some bad podcasters do this, but I don't want to come into this conversation with you, I don't have an agenda for me to come out looking like the cooler guy, right? And, you know, that's not your agenda.

   6. BBBuster Benson22:14

      'Cause we're middle-aged mates, that's-

   7. CWChris Williamson22:15

      I think, yeah.

   8. BBBuster Benson22:15

      ... what's up. (laughs)

   9. CWChris Williamson22:16

      What we want, what we want, I mean-

   10. BBBuster Benson22:17

       Yeah.

   11. CWChris Williamson22:17

       ... you know, you, to think you, you're pretty cool as it is, living in the Bay Area, so I'm in the NorthEast of England, I'm in Winterfell.

   12. BBBuster Benson22:22

       (laughs)

   13. CWChris Williamson22:24

       Um, and, but what we're trying to do is we're trying to have a conversation. It's one of the few places, the last bastion of where conversations aim to make two plus two equaling five.

   14. BBBuster Benson22:35

       Mm-hmm.

   15. CWChris Williamson22:35

       Where it's like you, you know some stuff and I might know some stuff, and then together, we, we create and we're like, "Oh, wow. Both of us have come to a new conclusion." And the weird thing about it that I think is important is that we know that we're being held to account by an audience that's going to be rigorous at checking us on our bullshit.

   16. BBBuster Benson22:54

       Mm-hmm.

   17. CWChris Williamson22:54

       Because if it was just a conversation between the two of us, you might be able to lie more or bend the truth-

   18. BBBuster Benson23:00

       Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

   19. CWChris Williamson23:01

       ... or I might be able to, I could tell you that I was, like, an ex-professional football player or whatever-

   20. BBBuster Benson23:05

       (laughs)

   21. CWChris Williamson23:06

       ... whatever, but I can't do that, because I know that someone out there is gonna go, "That's, that's bullshit. You can't say that."

   22. BBBuster Benson23:10

       Yeah. Right, right, right.

   23. CWChris Williamson23:10

       So, you're actually held to this incredibly high level of intellectual rigor-

   24. BBBuster Benson23:14

       Yep.

   25. CWChris Williamson23:15

       ... and honesty and dignity and virtue and integrity and all that stuff.

   26. BBBuster Benson23:17

       Integrity, yeah (laughs) .

   27. CWChris Williamson23:18

       So it is, I, you know, the, uh, I suppose, what's, what are your thoughts on these sorts of long conversations and stuff like that as being a breeding ground for productive disagreement?

   28. BBBuster Benson23:27

       Absolutely. In fact, you know, even through my own experience as I've been on a few podcasts now and every single podcast host I, I meet, um, is so g- like, intuitively understands these points, um, because you're on a, you know, daily or weekly, you know, cadence doing them, right? And you, so you know, you know that, you know, asking good questions is important. You know that, you know, enticing people to sort of fill in their own arguments for something, um, show that, share their own perspective and share their story is important to the conversation. And you have the time, the context and the circumstances to allow space, if you don't, you're not looking for the soundbites, you're not looking for the zingers necessarily. So, as far as I'm concerned, like, yeah, th- the book could've just been like, "Be a podcast host."

   29. CWChris Williamson24:12

       Mm-hmm (laughs) .

   30. BBBuster Benson24:15

       (laughs) And, and be fine. We all just need our own podcasts and we all just need to be on more podcasts, 'cause e- everything about it, I agree, is just like, it's conducive to longer... Maybe this is why they're happening right now when we need this kind of thing, and why they're, you know, growing so fast, is because this is, this is the antidote to-... you know, the, the breaking news and the headlines and the, you know, the rants and all that, hot takes and all that stuff, so.
10. 26:58 – 33:15

    Practice 4–5: speak for yourself and ask questions that spark surprising answers

    1. BBBuster Benson26:58

       So number four is to speak for yourself. And this is sort of... You can always bring this back, um, to the other ones too. Each one sort of builds on the, on the past ones. But speaking for yourself, I found especially online, um, is an easy guardrail to help keep tr- conversations on track. When you start speaking for other people or imagining what, you know... How often do you say like, or do peop- you hear people say, um, "I can't understand why you would believe this or why you would do that. Well, you must be an idiot or you must be a racist or you must be a terrible person."

    2. CWChris Williamson27:30

       Mm-hmm.

    3. BBBuster Benson27:30

       Um, there was a question, there was a question, like I ca- I don't understand something, but you don't ask it, right?

    4. CWChris Williamson27:35

       Mm-hmm.

    5. BBBuster Benson27:35

       All you do is you take your, your uncharitable stereotype of that person and you plant it into their head and you say, "Okay, well, you must have this terrible projection that I have, and therefore I can judge you and underst- I think I understand you, but I really only understand my stereotype." And so if you ask, ask people to speak only for themselves and they are trying to talk about something that they can't talk about from their own perspective, you're forced to go find someone that can go and do that for you. Um, and so find the person that can speak for themselves about the thing you want to understand. Um, and so use that person to give you information instead of your own imagination to do that and... Yeah. So that leads into the next one, which is sort of paired with it, which is like asking questions that spark, um, surprising answers. So once you have that person there, like how do you... You don't just say like, you know, "Are you a terrible person? You know, s- speak for yourself. Try to convince me that you're not a terrible person." Those are terrible questions. (laughs) Um, you can ask questions that are much more open and be like, you know, you know, "How did you form this belief? Do you even have this belief? How would you, how would you articulate your position to me? Um, how are you misunderstood by people like me?" When, you know, "Wha- how, how have your beliefs been useful in your life? Who, who do you look up to that has this quality?" And just try to like start try to see the world through their words. Uh, again, you know, using the fact that they come from a different life as a source of information and have curiosity about it. So ask really big, open questions.

    6. CWChris Williamson29:08

       Wow. Yeah.

    7. BBBuster Benson29:09

       Um...

    8. CWChris Williamson29:09

       That, that little batch of questions that you've suggested there would elicit, you know, hundreds of hours of interesting conversations between people.

    9. BBBuster Benson29:18

       Yeah. And even people that you hate. (laughs)

    10. CWChris Williamson29:20

        Yeah. I mean, uh, you know, there's a lot of people that I disagree with that I think-

    11. BBBuster Benson29:23

        (laughs)

    12. CWChris Williamson29:23

        ... you know, I want, I want to know. In fact, the people that you agree with more likely have similar motivations to you because you've already selected for one thing that's in common between the two of you. Whereas if you don't even-

    13. BBBuster Benson29:36

        Right.

    14. CWChris Williamson29:36

        ... have that thing in common, you're like, "Oh, wow, you must have a really different worldview."

    15. BBBuster Benson29:40

        Yeah, yeah. It's really quick to see that, you know, to see that if you ask the right question. Like, "Oh, yeah, my, you know, I grew up here with these circumstances, with these, you know, this environment." Um, and you're like, "Oh, wow, tell me more because like I don't know anything about that." Right?

    16. CWChris Williamson29:57

        Mm-hmm. So I'm, I'm coaching, uh, a company out in Germany and one of the particular guys that I'm working with at the moment, he was asking about how to be a better conversationalist. He's quite forthcoming. Um, he's got a lot, uh, a lot to say and he's clever and he's quick. Um, but he, he knows that he grates on people. He knows that he can come across a little bit abrasive. And he asked me for some sort of heuristic or rule to use, and I was like, "I want you to ask one question for every statement that you make when you have a conversation with one of the guys in your office." Like, so-

    17. BBBuster Benson30:31

        Mm-hmm.

    18. CWChris Williamson30:31

        And even you can put what you want them to do into your question. So you can say...... "Okay-"

    19. BBBuster Benson30:36

        Yeah, yeah.

    20. CWChris Williamson30:36

        ... "what do you think is a solution to this?" Or, "How would you go about doing this?" Or, "Can you tell me why you think that?" You know, and if you realize that, it- it- not only does it help you to understand their point of view, and if you can ensure that you're letting go of your ego, and that you haven't got your battle mode on, and that you're not pulling too hard, and do the things that we've discussed beforehand-

    21. BBBuster Benson30:57

        Mm-hmm.

    22. CWChris Williamson30:57

        ... and you're- you're prepared to be sort of moved by the tide of the conversation, you can just-

    23. BBBuster Benson31:03

        Yeah.

    24. CWChris Williamson31:03

        ... sway from left to right, however it goes, you, again, you two plus two equals five in that conversation.

    25. BBBuster Benson31:10

        Absolutely. Yeah. It's- it's a- it's a skill, and again, I don't think people have been intentionally practicing this or being taught this skill, but the actual skill is not... You- you don't have to go and get your PhD in asking questions. Um, you can actually just put, you know, write down five questions, put it in your pocket, and next time you go out, you know, and talk to someone, just, like, review it really quickly before you go in and be like, "Okay, I'm gonna ask those questions." (laughs) And then ask them (laughs) and then see where it goes. And it's self-reinforcing, because once you start doing that, you realize how enjoyable it is to hear people talk about something that you weren't expecting them to talk about, um, and to hear someone's own words to- to- to describe something, uh... Um, and so I like this one because it is, like, one of the first, most, like, obvious reinforcing loops, where you get instant gratification from a good question.

    26. CWChris Williamson31:56

        Yeah. You really do.

    27. BBBuster Benson31:57

        Yeah.

    28. CWChris Williamson31:57

        I think certainly before doing this podcast, I'm an- I'm an only child, and that meant that I had a very, very single-minded, solitary, selfish worldview, uh, which I probably still do.

    29. BBBuster Benson32:07

        (laughs)

    30. CWChris Williamson32:08

        And my- my friend- my friends would probably accuse me of still having that. But it's- it's a lot better since doing the podcast because I have a genuine curiosity of what other people say, and I can't- I can no longer turn that off. Um, so someone will get kicked out at the front of one of our club nights, and I'll be stood at the door, and this person will be shouting and screaming about why the door staff have kicked them out, and I'll be asking them, like, "Oh, so, what were- were... Like, tell me about what you do for work." And they're like, "Fuck off, mate."
11. 33:15 – 43:03

    Practice 6: build arguments together (steelmanning and collaborative sensemaking)

    1. BBBuster Benson33:15

       Okay, so number six is building arguments together. Um, so once... So this is another thing that I like to practice, and then, you know, I think it's- you have to get good at the questions first, but, um, building arguments together is basically like, let's just put aside my position for a while and let's really work on making your argument, or your side of the position as strong as possible. And I can help you by both seeing- by seeing it from the outside as well, and you can help from seeing it from the inside. We can look for the answers to my questions together. Um, we can look for... I can look at the evidence that you have and sort of y- help you explain it in language that I can hear better, um, all these things where you're now, um, rather than trying to tear apart their argument, you're trying to build it up. Because in an ideal world, a disagreement would be something that you can learn from, and you can only learn from the best version of the argument. You- so that means you need to find the people that can best represent the argument and help them make it stronger. And, you know, this is a collaborative exercise, and you can just do this with almost anything. There's a best argument for even the most wrong positions.

    2. CWChris Williamson34:19

       Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

    3. BBBuster Benson34:20

       And, you know, you can make the best argument for flat earth. You can make the best argument for-

    4. CWChris Williamson34:23

       Yeah.

    5. BBBuster Benson34:24

       ... you know, the world being on top of a stack of turtles.

    6. CWChris Williamson34:26

       Yep, yep.

    7. BBBuster Benson34:26

       I mean, but, um... And by doing that, you're, like, suddenly you're- you're back into your creative mode. You're back into your, like, "Okay, well, let's make this work." Um, and you're doing it with somebody that has a lot to contribute. 'Cause our enemies and our opponents actually are the best at spotting our own blind spots, and we're the best at spotting theirs. And if we're actually working together, there's a huge amount of benefit from using that knowledge of each other, um, to make each other stronger. Um, ultimately, you might build up the argument and be like, "Okay, well, I still don't believe the earth is flat, but, you know, I had a lot of fun doing that." You know?

    8. CWChris Williamson35:00

       (laughs)

    9. BBBuster Benson35:00

       And maybe they, during the process, they might be like, "Okay, well, I..." And I had an experience where I talked to, uh, a globalist, and they, you know, they didn't try to hurt me or tell me I'm an idiot.

    10. CWChris Williamson35:09

        Mm-hmm.

    11. BBBuster Benson35:10

        Um, I open the door to them asking you questions about your argument or, like, how you got to your side 'cause that... You know, I gave you, you know, some of my time, they might eventually want to give it back.

    12. CWChris Williamson35:20

        Yeah. So I- I'm thinking of two examples here, which you might be familiar with both. I think it is Charlie Munger who says that he refuses to have a position on anything unless he can state the other sides-

    13. BBBuster Benson35:32

        Mm-hmm.

    14. CWChris Williamson35:32

        ... better than they can.

    15. BBBuster Benson35:34

        Right. Right. Exactly.

    16. CWChris Williamson35:35

        That- that- that's an amazing heuristic. And then you might have seen the, uh, Pangburn Philosophy discussion between Jordan Peterson and Sam Harris.

    17. BBBuster Benson35:42

        Mm-hmm.

    18. CWChris Williamson35:42

        And they started...

    19. BBBuster Benson35:44

        They tried to do this. (laughs)

    20. CWChris Williamson35:45

        They- they did a st- they did what's called steel manning. Is that right?

    21. BBBuster Benson35:48

        Yeah.

    22. CWChris Williamson35:49

        Steel manning?

    23. BBBuster Benson35:49

        Yeah, steel manning. Mm-hmm.

    24. CWChris Williamson35:50

        Can you explain what steel manning in argument is?

    25. BBBuster Benson35:52

        Steel manning is a s- is a version of this, which is, like, "I'm gonna try to articulate the, you know, the best case of this argument." It doesn't necessarily require the other person to be involved, which I think is a- a crucial part of it 'cause they actually have a lot more of the information than you do. Um, but yeah, it's- it's basically saying, "Hey, if I don't think that, um, it's moral to, um, you know, not vaccinate your kids, um, I could create the steel man argument of that, of the other person's side-"

    26. CWChris Williamson36:21

        Mm-hmm.

    27. BBBuster Benson36:22

        "... by trying to use evidence in as good of faith, you know, notion as pos- possible." So like, "Imagine someone like this and this and this," and in that case, um, you know, I can see why... "You know, they don't have time to go give their kids vaccinations and that's why they don't do it," or, "They live in Nigeria, there's no access to clinics," you know, whatever it happens to be. But taking everything on as good of faith as possible.

    28. CWChris Williamson36:43

        Mm-hmm.

    29. BBBuster Benson36:43

        Um, sometimes it's also called the principle of charity, um, of just, you know, helping them. I think the crucial thing that they all sort of triangulate on is that...... we're usually in the mode of trying to tear people's arguments down, and that, um, makes us not see the strengths. Versus when you steel man, you, you sort of do the opposite. You look for the strengths and you look to make them stronger, and you look to, you know, try to imagine 'cause that's, when we're arguing on behalf of ourselves, that's what we're doing. We're imagining it in its best light. We're not imagining its flaws. Um, so it helps you with that empathy a bit.

    30. CWChris Williamson37:18

        Yeah. Yeah. I agree. And again, to come back to the, the asking questions part, a lot of the guys that work for us, you can imagine there's a million micro decisions that need to get made about club nights. Who's working this week? What are the hostess outfits? Should we do confetti or should we do bubbles or should we do whatever? And everyone has different point of view. And a lot of the time I've noticed that the guys that work there maybe, uh, 18, 19 up to 21, 22, and a lot of the guys like to make statements about things as, as fact, but then they're never actually prepared to look at what the other side is saying and understand that.
12. 43:03 – 49:22

    Tribal psychology and performative conflict: zingers, applause, and group identity

    1. CWChris Williamson43:03

       Have you, have you seen those political debates, I don't know whether they have them in the States, I know they have them in the UK, where the audience members have a button that tells them, that, uh, shows at the bottom of the screen, I think it's called the worm, so you can imagine there's lines for each of the candidates moving across the screen like that, and then they go up and down as they-

    2. BBBuster Benson43:22

       Mm-hmm.

    3. CWChris Williamson43:22

       ... say different things, and you can track, and it's like, "Oh, red's, red's said something really bad," or, "Blue's made red silly, so red looks worse," and blah, blah. Have you seen those things?

    4. BBBuster Benson43:31

       I have, yeah. They do it for debates, yeah.

    5. CWChris Williamson43:33

       Okay.

    6. BBBuster Benson43:34

       Um, and I've seen them also done, um, in, like, a town hall kind of situation.

    7. CWChris Williamson43:39

       Okay.

    8. BBBuster Benson43:40

       Um, like, th- th- there's a, there's a, there's a methodology around it. I don't think it's great 'cause it turns, it turns conversation into a sport, right? It turns it into who can score points, who can, like, get the zingers, who can, you know, sort of make the other person look like a fool. Um, it's definitely not about coming to (laughs) an agreement or seeing things eye to eye. Um, and so I-

    9. CWChris Williamson44:02

       Hmm. It's very adversarial, isn't it, doing it that way?

    10. BBBuster Benson44:04

        Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I think the intentions are good. I think there's a bunch of, you know, and t- you know, perhaps in a court of law or, you know, when you're talking about policy and very specific problem spaces, it would work, but I think at a national level, political debates, that's not good.

    11. CWChris Williamson44:20

        Yeah.

    12. BBBuster Benson44:20

        Um, it turns it into a g- a football game.

    13. CWChris Williamson44:23

        Yep. I think, uh, again, another Sam Harris-ism, I think he was talking about when he either does debates or just generally panel shows, so this could be either adversarial or collaborative, and he was saying that a lot of the time, the person who comes out feeling like they were the best wasn't the person who was the most lucid or the person who articulated their argument the best or whatever it was, it's if you get one huge raucous laugh from the crowd, like if you got the biggest laugh, you won.

    14. BBBuster Benson44:53

        Right.

    15. CWChris Williamson44:54

        Which is bizarre-

    16. BBBuster Benson44:54

        Right.

    17. CWChris Williamson44:54

        ... because, you know, some, some could be talking about some real contentious, serious topics, like the, the reality of Islam in the West or, uh, the, the, um, laws surrounding abortion or the, the concept of consciousness or whatever it is-

    18. BBBuster Benson45:07

        Right.

    19. CWChris Williamson45:07

        ... and then someone makes a funny joke and it's like, "Oh, he won." You're like, (laughs) ...

    20. BBBuster Benson45:13

        (laughs) I know, I mean, that, 'cause it, you're there to be entertained, so ...

    21. CWChris Williamson45:15

        Mm-hmm.

    22. BBBuster Benson45:16

        Um, if that's n- if that's what you're there for, then the laughs will definitely give you the points.

    23. CWChris Williamson45:20

        Yeah.

    24. BBBuster Benson45:20

        I mean, I call them zingers, where-

    25. CWChris Williamson45:21

        Yeah.

    26. BBBuster Benson45:21

        ... there's a whole science, I think, to zingers where, you know, you're not actually talking to that person, you're just trying to make them look foolish. You're mostly talking to your own side about, like, you know, "How can I be the best sort of soldier or the best, you know, um, flag bearer of my side and, like, say things in such a way that just, you know, create, um, bewilderment or confusion on the other side?" Um, or taunt them, or, you know, all these things where it's very social but tied back to warp behavior again, where-

    27. CWChris Williamson45:50

        Mm-hmm.

    28. BBBuster Benson45:50

        ... you know, the, the goal is definitely not to get along. (laughs)

    29. CWChris Williamson45:53

        Yeah. It's a, there's a, Andrew Doyle, uh, and Konstantin Kisin, who are two, uh, comedians, political comedians in the UK, uh, I've spoken to them both recently, saw them at the Edinburgh Fringe, and both of them said the same thing about, I think they call it, um, applaud comedy, which is where the comedian doesn't necessarily say something funny, they just say the thing that the audience agrees with the most, and then they get these big-

    30. BBBuster Benson46:18

        Right, right, right, right, right.
13. 49:22 – 57:12

    Practice 7–8: cultivate neutral spaces and accept imperfect reality to make progress

    1. BBBuster Benson49:22

       Yes. I wanna say one more thing about that, though, 'cause I-

    2. CWChris Williamson49:23

       Lovely.

    3. BBBuster Benson49:24

       There is, there is so much to say about this tribal stuff. It's really the underpinning of, of all of our thoughts around disagreement, which is, like, um, if you even just look back at birds. You know, birds can't... will kick members out of their flock if they're caught stealing. Um, if, if there are times when there's scarcity and one bird is eating all the food and never going out hunting, um, that bird'll be exiled or ostracized from their tribe. And so, this sense of like, in order to stay in the group, you have to contribute, and the worst punishment of any group is to be removed from the group. Like, that's how we enforce all of our laws is like, if you don't follow the rules, we kick you out. Um, and that works as long as, you know, in the past, you know, you kick someone out and they probably end up dying, right? 'Cause there's no other group that's gonna take them in. Now, we kick people out and then they're like, "Oh, hey, troublemaker, come over to our trouble tribe. Um, we're gonna help you become stronger, and we have all these other weapons we can, you know. And we're building this new, you know, argument that's gonna... and we're gonna go attack them next, next year or, you know, in 10 years." Um, and so the things that worked in our tribes in the past of like, you know, follow the rules or else, um, now in a world where everyone can find a community, no matter how, um, sort of fringe you are, um, and those fringe groups can become stronger and more angry at you. Like, the, the feedback loop is now-

    4. CWChris Williamson50:47

       Mm-hmm.

    5. BBBuster Benson50:48

       ... what, what you kick out is gonna come back, you know, 10 times stronger, um, in the future.

    6. CWChris Williamson50:52

       Yeah.

    7. BBBuster Benson50:52

       So, it's an interesting dynamic that requires different instincts (laughs) for us to, to manage. Um, so anyway, the last two are sort of relevant. So, one of them, the second to last one is to cultivate neutral spaces. So, spaces, you know, so speaking of tribes, where you don't have to always signal loyalty to the group. You don't always have to repeat the ideas of the o- your authority figure. You don't always have to, um, even like, you know, be productive in that group. But like, so imagine a dinner table or, you know, something where anyone can bring s- an idea to the table. Um, it could be a bad idea, it could be a good idea. Those kinds of... That, that makes it neutral on terms of ideas, wh- no one has to endorse the idea, um, just by... in order to talk about it. You can talk about it, you know, and be critical of it, but it's welcome to the table. Um, and the second level of that is like, who's allowed in the room? You know, can, can anyone arrive into the room and, and present their ideas? Can we allow, you know, terrorists and Trump supporters to the room to tell us, like, what's wrong... what's going on with them? Um, the, the danger that we fear is that like, if we invite them to the room, they're gonna come in and, and, uh, attack us. And, you know, we'll give them val- validation and all the stuff that, you know, that they came to do in bad faith. But, um, a truly neutral space would allow ideas to flow in and out, good and bad ones, and allow people to flow in and out, good and bad ones, um, over time. And some places can, can cultivate this, and others, it becomes obvious that that's not gonna ever happen. Um, when, when other interests like, you know, um, revenue or, you know, uh, costs are involved, you have to make choices about who can be there and who can't. And slowly, over time, that creates systemic problems where people are undervalued and unhappy and marginalized. And, you know, whether it be, you know, um, the poorest people in the country or the most disenfranchised people in the country or it be the people that were previously, you know, in the ruling class, but are now being neglected. You know, like, everyone can feel outcast in that sense, um, and unwelcome to the main group. Mm-hmm.

    8. CWChris Williamson52:55

       Um, you know, how there's all this talk about, like, elites sort of like criticizing the common people. Um, the common people are feeling displaced, and they're not... they don't feel like it's a neutral space. So, I think there's ways for us to work on that. Um, and then the last one is sort of a meta point. It's sort of trying to wrap up the whole thing, which is to, rather than reject reality, um, or reject that the world is like this, just like accept that, you know, we have our problems. No one's, no one's perfect. We all have a, you know, a, a thread of... between good and evil that goes between us. Um, none of us can be perfectly one or the other. And we have to get into the fray regardless with people that are imperfect, because we, too, are imperfect. We don't need to use purity tests to like, uh, test loyalty. Um, but rather, get a, get sort of working on the problems and start, you know, getting, um, making progress on that stuff instead of trying to just make sure that the whole world is perfect before you agree to go touch it. You don't have to wait for politics to be completely revamped to become a politician. You don't have to wait for, you know, the tech industry to be completely revamped. You don't have to wait for any industry to be fixed before you go in and try to help make it better. Yeah. So, the, the first point that you've talked about there, I suppose, with cancel culture and, um, blockades around particular rallies or speeches, where they... Uh, one of my o- ex-podcast guests and a friend, Alex, who's at the University of Oxford, uh, Steve Bannon was going to go and talk, and some students had just blocked the street. They were like, "No, no, you can't go, you can't go listen to him. We're not gonna let anyone through to listen to him."

    9. BBBuster Benson54:31

       Right.

    10. CWChris Williamson54:31

        And you're like, well, I mean, if his ideas are that bad, you should be able to say, at the Q&A at the end, just zinger the hell out of him, make him look a fool. But-

    11. BBBuster Benson54:42

        Right. (laughs)

    12. CWChris Williamson54:43

        ... it's easier, it's easier to just t- try and shut down the argument entirely. But bizarrely, it always... it almost always seems to work against people. You know, Ben Shapiro needs like 14 security guards with him whenever he goes to go speak on campus and all this sort of stuff.

    13. BBBuster Benson55:00

        Right. Yes. Yeah.

    14. CWChris Williamson55:01

        Uh, and then, yeah, the... with the, with your final point there, the, the fact that you need to accept the world as it is, I'm finding that mechanism appear in so many different areas of life at the moment.

    15. BBBuster Benson55:12

        Mm-hmm.

    16. CWChris Williamson55:13

        Um, and it's a good piece of advice for anyone who's listening.

    17. ... if you are continuing to come up against the same problem, you know that the world shouldn't be that way, but it continues to manifest. It's like, "Sorry, but the world isn't changing as fast as you want it to-

    18. BBBuster Benson55:26

        (laughs)

    19. CWChris Williamson55:26

        ... and you just, you just need to account for that." So, we say all the time with the, with the managers or with some of the staff that work for us, or whatever it might be, we wish that they would be sufficiently autonomous with X task that we don't need to remind them. But after three weeks of them not doing it when we don't tell them, despite the fact that we scheduled for them to do it, you're like, uh, that this is just a thing where the world is the way it is, and I'm gonna have to send them a message on the morning that reminds them to do the X task or the Y task or whatever it might be. Um-

    20. BBBuster Benson55:55

        Right. Yeah.

    21. CWChris Williamson55:55

        And that, that, that appears to be rolling forward for everything. 'Cause we want the world to just happen, right? We want it to be this autonomous-

    22. BBBuster Benson56:04

        Right.

    23. CWChris Williamson56:04

        ... beast where we do the work once and it just scales beautifully as this like evergreen, uh, utopia (laughs) .

    24. BBBuster Benson56:11

        Right, right.

    25. CWChris Williamson56:11

        Just rolls out in front of us.

    26. BBBuster Benson56:11

        We have all these ex- expectations. We don't want it to, you know, we have an expectation and when it doesn't line up, that, um, makes us a little bit anxious. Um, and so we can either decide like, "Okay, well, there's something broken over there. I'm gonna stay away from it. You should fix it yourself." Or we're gonna help develop that and help them improve, um, and get involved ourselves. But, um, yeah, it is a hard instinct to overcome. Um, it's very tempting to, um, want to just hide the problems over there and say like, "Hey, you're, you got a problem, go fix it."

    27. CWChris Williamson56:44

        Mm-hmm.

    28. BBBuster Benson56:44

        Um, versus being the- it's part of the, of the solution.

    29. CWChris Williamson56:48

        I suppose that manifests as one of the, as the third option that you spoke earlier on, which is just to exit the conversation thing as well, right? It's like, "Oh, well, look, like this is, this is just pointless. I'm not even gonna bother, not even gonna bother engaging." You know, well ...

    30. BBBuster Benson57:00

        Right.
14. 57:12 – 1:01:46

    Closing takeaway: treat disagreement like a skill—practice deliberately

    1. CWChris Williamson57:12

       So, to wrap up, if you were to give the people that are listening your one favorite single, uh, heuristic or rule or piece of advice when it comes-

    2. BBBuster Benson57:23

       Yeah.

    3. CWChris Williamson57:23

       ... to having a productive disagreement, what would it be?

    4. BBBuster Benson57:28

       Well, I mean, I think that the, the overall, um, desire, uh, that I would sort of wanna plant in people's heads is that we can get better at this. Like, we can become, you know, 1%, 5%, 10% better at disagreeing productively. Um, and the only way we can do that is by practicing. So, find the arguments out there that, you know, the disagreements that you're avoiding currently, um, and s- one that's within like the, you know, the s- the skill level, not too hard, not too easy, um, you know, e- especially at first if you don't know where you are on that scale. Um, practice it, and intentionally try to get better at it. This is a, this is like going to the gym, right? This is how we get along with each other is a skill we need to develop in ourselves. Because once we develop it in ourselves, we can feel it in ourselves, we can sort of remember what it's like, we can expect others to also have that. And I think that's one of the only ways we can en- enact change in the world, is to expect our leaders to be better, expect our, you know, the people above us to, to be better. But we can only expect that of them once we know what it is ourselves. Um, and so, you know, I think we can start there to begin. And, you know, once, once you get hooked on it, I think, you know, you'll, you'll find every conversation to be like a little adventure that, you know, it's, it's gonna ... you don't know where it's gonna go. It's gonna be s- it's gonna be unpredictable because you're no longer just guardrailing it or trying to shut it down, um, and it leads to really interesting things. It's highly rewarding. So, um, I just, you know, I hope people turn this into a practice. It's, it's, uh, that's my goal.

    5. CWChris Williamson59:02

       I like it. I think we've, we've used a, a really lovely framework today. It's certainly something that I think will challenge a lot of people. They've got a lot of biases to overcome, visceral responses to things, emotion, the ego, all the, the, the things that manifest themselves, burble and pop inside of our brains.

    6. BBBuster Benson59:20

       Yeah.

    7. CWChris Williamson59:20

       Um, but yeah, I, you know, like I say, go, go and have a conversation, have a long conversation with people, have a think about what we've spoken about today.

    8. BBBuster Benson59:27

       Yeah, go on a podcast.

    9. CWChris Williamson59:28

       Do a, do a-

    10. BBBuster Benson59:28

        Start your own podcast.

    11. CWChris Williamson59:29

        Honestly-

    12. BBBuster Benson59:29

        (laughs)

    13. CWChris Williamson59:29

        ... I'm telling you.

    14. BBBuster Benson59:30

        Yeah.

    15. CWChris Williamson59:30

        Well, the st- the s- the stupid thing now is that you can do an IG Live, a dual IG Live with someone else. So, I'm actually gonna start doing this for the podcast. I'm gonna do, um, just a weekly 15-minute chat with someone else. It's not, not as structured, not published on any of the platforms, but it'll just exist. But you can, anyone can do that. Everyone got some form of social media. And you're like, "Okay, well, so what was it that, that Chris and Buster said? Oh, I need the, I need the external accountability of someone else that's going, that's gonna be listening to hold me to like high level of rigor and blah, blah." There you go.

    16. BBBuster Benson1:00:04

        Right.

    17. CWChris Williamson1:00:04

        Like, you know, just press, press a button, press Go Live button and get one of your friends to join you, and you know, that, that might-

    18. BBBuster Benson1:00:08

        Yeah.

    19. CWChris Williamson1:00:08

        ... that might, uh, nourish the, the particular, um-

    20. BBBuster Benson1:00:11

        Absolutely.

    21. CWChris Williamson1:00:11

        ... thing. Um, so-

    22. BBBuster Benson1:00:13

        Yeah.

    23. CWChris Williamson1:00:13

        ... Why Are We Yelling?: The Art of Productive Disagreement will be linked in the show notes below. And it's @Buster on Twitter. I mean, that's the advantage of being one of the first guys on Twitter, isn't it?

    24. BBBuster Benson1:00:22

        (laughs)

    25. CWChris Williamson1:00:22

        When you get to get @Buster.

    26. BBBuster Benson1:00:25

        Yeah, I guess so. Yep, yep, yep. (laughs)

    27. CWChris Williamson1:00:27

        I love it.

    28. BBBuster Benson1:00:27

        I had @Instagram too, but then I accidentally canceled the account. Oh, well. But-

    29. CWChris Williamson1:00:30

        No way.

    30. BBBuster Benson1:00:32

        (laughs)

Episode duration: 1:01:46