How To Be A Dictator | Frank Dikotter | Modern Wisdom Podcast 102

1. 0:00 – 15:00

   (wind blowing) Oh, hello there,…

   1. CWChris Williamson0:00

      (wind blowing) Oh, hello there, friends. Today we're going to learn how to be a dictator. Well, kind of. Frank Dikotter is an author, and his most recent book, How To Be A Dictator, looks at eight of the most chillingly effective dictators of the 21st century. So we're gonna learn about Mussolini, Hitler, Stalin, Mao Zedong, Kim Il-sung, and a couple of leaders that I'm going to leave to Frank to pronounce. But yeah, the characteristics of a dictator are oddly similar whilst also being incredibly unique. As Frank identifies, one dictator from one regime at one particular period of time wouldn't work at all if he was to swap places with another. As always, if you've got any questions, comments or feedback, feel free to get at me @chriswillx wherever you follow me. But for now, please welcome Frank Dikotter. (electronic music plays) I am joined by Frank Dikotter at the beginning of his book tour. Frank, how are you? Welcome to the show.

   2. FDFrank Dikötter1:21

      Thank you. Thank you for having me.

   3. CWChris Williamson1:23

      It's an absolute pleasure to have you on. So today you're going to teach us how to be a dictator, right?

   4. FDFrank Dikötter1:29

      That's the title of the book. Not sure I can, um, really help you go all the way.

   5. CWChris Williamson1:34

      It's not a ... So it's not a personal development, self-development, how-to book?

   6. FDFrank Dikötter1:39

      It's, um, it's probably more of a history book that will tell you how to spot other potential dictators.

   7. CWChris Williamson1:47

      Got you. (laughs) Okay. Well, if there are any budding dictators in the, uh, in the audience, they, they might be a little disappointed. But for everyone else, those of us who are gonna be fascinated. So tell us w- why you wrote the book, first off.

   8. FDFrank Dikötter2:03

      Um, well, I'm a historian, and when you think about it, uh, you could pretty much summarise the 20th century, uh, in about a sentence. There is an attempt um, on the one hand, to separate out powers. In other words, to build up a civil society, um, to have checks and balances. That's a very difficult thing to do. Um, it's frail, it's fragile, um, but it's made great progress. And then on the other hand, there is an attempt to concentrate all power. In other words, to make sure that there is an authoritarian regime with one person who makes all the decisions. These are two very contradictory trends, um, and I spent most of my career really studying countries, um, where attempts have been made to concentrate powers in the hands of a dictator. Um, so that really was pr- what prompted me to write this book.

   9. CWChris Williamson3:08

      I suppose that when people think back to the 20th century that are, that, that will be some of the defining characteristics, right? So what is a dictator in its purest form?

   10. FDFrank Dikötter3:20

       Well, this may sound strange, but you have to think of a dictator, um, as developing against a background of democracy. In other words, to put it slightly differently, we live in an age of democracy. In fact, since the French and the American revolutions of the 18th century, we live more or less in an age of democracy. In other words, sovereignty with the collapse of old regimes and France, uh, in particular, uh, power is seen to reside no longer in some sort of, uh, heavenly mandate or in the divine rights, but in the people. And people select a leader through a process of elections. Of course, this is a, a very gradually unfolding age of democracy, but it means that there is a paradox with dictators. They seize power on the one hand, but they must also create the illusion somehow of popular support. And that's where the cult of personality comes in. That's one of the key focuses of the book. Uh, a dictator must, on the one hand, uh, use terror, you know, the, the secret police, military forces, uh, torturers, spies, the Praetorian Guard, concentration camps. But on the other hand, there must also be an attempt to build up what I call a cult of personality. In other words, a dictator must coerce his people into acclaiming him. He must create the illusion that people actually support him.

   11. CWChris Williamson5:03

       Mm. Yeah. You've got to still play the game whilst also not looking like you're playing a different game.

   12. FDFrank Dikötter5:09

       Exactly. So this is the great paradox of modern dictators. They all claim to be rather democratic.

   13. CWChris Williamson5:15

       (laughs)

   14. FDFrank Dikötter5:17

       Or at the very least, they claim to represent the true will of the people.

   15. CWChris Williamson5:23

       Yes, I understand. And it's then a, a s- a game of switching that round. How much of this do you think is very well laid out in advance from the position of the dictator, and how much of it is us post hoc rationalizing, they ended up being a dictator? Could some of them have begun with the best ideas of holding democracy in, in mind and then changed when power became easier for them to take and advantages became available?

   16. FDFrank Dikötter5:54

       Uh, I understand the question. It's a very good one. You have to bear in mind that successful dictators are extremely pragmatic and at heart opportunists. They use whatever comes their way, uh...... uh, to their own advantage. I'll give you one example. Uh, Hitler carries out a coup in 1923, uh, by storming a beer hall in Munich. It doesn't succeed, but then he turns defeat into a victory by turning the courtroom into a propaganda platform with newspapers reporting everything he says, and then uses his time imprisoned behind bars to write, um, his political autobiography called Mein Kampf. Um, this goes on and on. Um, whenever something happens, um, that might be seen, uh, to go against a dictator, uh, many of them manage to make the very best of it. Uh, so they are definitely opportunists who seize particular, you know, occasions and turn it to their advantage. But on the other hand, I think it's fair to say that most of them are pretty convinced that this sort of, um... they're pretty convinced that power must end up in the hands of one person. All of them express contempt for what they see as weak, wishy-washy parliamentary democracy.

   17. CWChris Williamson7:26

       Mm.

   18. FDFrank Dikötter7:27

       Hitler says so openly. The communists, of course, talk about democratic centralism. In other words, democracy exer- exercised by a small committee of people on behalf of the entire population.

   19. CWChris Williamson7:41

       (laughs) Doesn't sound massively like a democracy though.

   20. FDFrank Dikötter7:45

       No. But of course, a- again, it's crucial to realize that they must invoke the will of the people.

   21. CWChris Williamson7:53

       Mm. Yeah. It's-

   22. FDFrank Dikötter7:54

       They must try to come up with at least the illusion, um, that coercion is, in effect, consent.

   23. CWChris Williamson8:05

       How much of the rise of a dictator do you think is the manifestation or the projection of one person's inner personality, their particular makeup that they have? And how much of it do you think is them chasing a dream? Th- I guess, uh, the difference between a career and a calling, so to speak. Are some of them doing it because they just want power at all, at all costs? Or do you think some of them have got a, a, a more l- uh, meaning, more purpose behind their particular movement?

   24. FDFrank Dikötter8:42

       Yes. It's, it's the classic question of power versus ideology.

   25. CWChris Williamson8:46

       Yes.

   26. FDFrank Dikötter8:46

       Are they there to seek power and more power, or d- do they have a particular vision, a particular ideology? I think-

   27. CWChris Williamson8:52

       That's exactly what I meant, yes. Just ￡.

   28. FDFrank Dikötter8:53

       Yes, indeed. Well, it's an old debate and what I'm trying to show is that all the emphasis that historians have put on ideology... I remember being a student 30 years ago and I was all about studying the ideology of Marxism, communism, studying Maoism, studying Leninism, Stalinism, you name it. But in the end, what I'm trying to show is that ideology doesn't really matter all that much to a dictator. What matters is not loyalty to a creed, but loyalty to his person. That's what a dictator wishes. The reasons for that are reasonably straightforward. A dictator by definition is somebody who seizes power, and s- power has to be maintained. Power seized through violence must be maintained through violence, and that can be a very blunt instrument. Um, so it's much better to try to create loyalty, to enforce it, so to speak. Uh, most of all, when a dictator sees his power, um, he runs the risk of somebody else doing the same thing to him. In other words, there are rivals somehow waiting in the wings. The prospect of a stab in the back appears. So what do you do to control your inner court to make sure that your allies or rivals, uh, don't organize a coup against you as new dictator? I think here again, cult of personality is all important. You make sure that the people around you acclaim you. Um, they are abased by being forced to acclaim you as a great leader, and most of all, by claiming you as a great leader, uh, allies, rivals, all of them have to lie. And when they lie, when everybody lies, it's very difficult to find out who actually supports who. So loyalty is the greatest concern for any one dictator. They're constantly keeping tabs on the people around them. They're worried about who might betray them.

   29. CWChris Williamson11:00

       Yeah. There's a, a Instagram quote going around, which you probably almost definitely won't have seen, but it's talking about boys that cheat on girls. And it says, "If he cheats with you, he'll cheat on you." And I think that what that suggests is past behavior is suggestive of future behavior. And if you've taken power and you have managed to have a group of sycophants around you that are supporting you in this power grab, you're totally right, it must be an incredibly anxious and, uh, paranoid environment to be in as that one person at the top. If you did it, what's stopping everybody else?

   30. FDFrank Dikötter11:41

       Well, that's exactly it. That's, that's precisely the point, is that you want to have people who are loyal or at least proclaim themselves to be loyal.
2. 15:00 – 30:00

   Yes. But it's, it's…

   1. CWChris Williamson15:00

      delegating, but also they have to do that, right? They, you can't scale this movement without at least letting some people into the inner circle.

   2. FDFrank Dikötter15:10

      Yes. But it's, it's best, um, to, uh, to, um, purge occasionally.

   3. CWChris Williamson15:17

      Mm-hmm.

   4. FDFrank Dikötter15:17

      Which is why it is so very dangerous to be the number two in a dictatorial regime, in particular communist ones, 'cause there's always the suspicion that number, from, on the part of number one that number two wants to take his place.

   5. CWChris Williamson15:33

      I understand. So in the career of a dictator, where are the major stumbling blocks? Where, where do they mostly fail? We're talking about how to be a dictator and if we've got our imaginary, our imaginary dictator in the audience who's listening, what does he need to do first?

   6. FDFrank Dikötter15:53

      Well, there, there is really no magic list. (laughs)

   7. CWChris Williamson15:58

      Mm-hmm.

   8. FDFrank Dikötter15:59

      It, it's, on the one hand, uh, these dictators have an awful lot in common, although you will always find an exception to the rule. But on the other hand, they're extremely individual and you can see why. Conditions vary enormously from a, uh, reasonably developed modern country like Germany in the early 1930s to a very impoverished mainly rural country like Haiti in the 1960s under Papa Doc or Duvalier. But the conditions vary enormously.

   9. CWChris Williamson16:37

      Mm-hmm.

   10. FDFrank Dikötter16:37

       So I guess one of the very attributes of a dictator is to understand local culture extremely well and be able to use it in order to become a dictator. If you would take Stalin and take him out of the Soviet Union and somehow make him run the People's Republic of China for a while, it would not work. These are individuals who are very closely linked to the, the, the times, um, and circumstances, um, o- o- of, of, of their countries.

   11. CWChris Williamson17:09

       They were made to measure in that way, I suppose.

   12. FDFrank Dikötter17:12

       V- Very much, and they also made themselves to measure. They were not afraid of turning idealo- ideology, uh, on its head. Take for instance Marxist ideology. Um, it says that there will be a world revolution carried out by the workers. But Mao in 1927 takes off to the countryside and embraces the very peasants that are derided by orthodox Marxism. In other words, he makes villages, um, you know, the, the focal point of this revolution, turning it upside down. Kim Il-sung, North Korea, very much the same thing, embraces Marxism but then after a while comes up with the theory of self-reliance, where people who are self-reliant can somehow achieve the revolution without any regards to the so-called material circumstances, which is, you know, the bedrock of Marxist theory.

   13. CWChris Williamson18:09

       Mm-hmm.

   14. FDFrank Dikötter18:09

       In fact, by 1972, Kim Il-sung in North Korea has virtually written Marxism out of the Constitution. To even study Marx or Engels, uh, is seen as a sign of-... lack of loyalty to the leader himself. So, in other words, under Kim Il-sung, one reads Kim Il-sung, under Mao, you read Mao, under Stalin-

   15. CWChris Williamson18:32

       Ah.

   16. FDFrank Dikötter18:32

       ... you read Stalin.

   17. CWChris Williamson18:32

       They've transcended what they were before.

   18. FDFrank Dikötter18:35

       Quite, quite.

   19. CWChris Williamson18:37

       That's interesting. So, it's a, uh, recently brought up topic, uh, with regards to North Korea and the movements that it's making at the moment. So, why don't you tell us some of the things that you learned about Kim Il-sung during your research? I'm fascinated to learn about how North Korea got to the particular, uh, approach to politics that it has now.

   20. FDFrank Dikötter18:59

       Well, Kim Il-sung is quite an extraordinary figure, because he is, uh, somebody who is pretty much imposed by the Soviet Union on an unwilling population. Yet, within several years, he manages to play two great backers and superpowers, uh, against each other, to obtain more independence, namely the People's Republic of China, that helps Kim Il-sung start, uh, his war of unification against South Korea, uh, in the early 1950s, and the Soviet Union that installed him in the first place. So, within years, by 1956, he's managed to play the one against the other, has managed to purge all those who were loyal to Moscow or to Beijing, and installed his own people. By then, he tours the country in whirlwind visits to factories, to the countryside, dispensing his advice, making himself visible, literally to millions. His portrait is everywhere. His words are in every newspapers, uh, committed to memory by ordinary people. Um, by the 1960s and '70s, um, family members up to, uh, a good dozen of them are in key positions of power. So, from there onwards you can see that this will become a dynasty, uh, when he passes away in the early 1990s, his son takes over and keeps all the attributes of power, namely fear, terror on the one hand, and a, an extravagant cult of personality on the other. It lasts to this very day.

   21. CWChris Williamson20:41

       Is it common for dictators to keep it in the family? It doesn't seem that way, but my, my understanding isn't so much. Certainly with North Korea it does, but has that been a, a, a tactic used elsewhere?

   22. FDFrank Dikötter20:55

       No. Again, it, it all depends on circumstances and the dictators who succeed, so to speak, by that I mean they die in their own bed-

   23. CWChris Williamson21:07

       (laughs)

   24. FDFrank Dikötter21:07

       ... as opposed to Hitler, or as opposed to Mussolini.

   25. CWChris Williamson21:12

       Yeah.

   26. FDFrank Dikötter21:12

       But the ones who succeed, um, are extremely pragmatic. Um, so if you can't trust anyone, it might be a good idea to have a family member there, but it doesn't always work like that. Uh, Mao tried, uh, with the nephew, but it backfired rather badly. Another example, besides Kim Il-sung, who successfully installed his own son would be Papa Doc, who I mentioned earlier on, or Duvalier. He manages to, uh, install his own son, um, in 1972 when he dies. Uh, so that regime will last for another good decade or so. But the truth is, succession is always a great issue for dictators. The, the reason is very simple. In a democracy, it's not so much that people get voted in, they get voted out.

   27. CWChris Williamson22:03

       (laughs)

   28. FDFrank Dikötter22:04

       Uh, if you're-

   29. CWChris Williamson22:05

       Yeah.

   30. FDFrank Dikötter22:05

       ... a dictator, there's no point at which you can leave without fear for your life. It's very difficult to just say, "Ah, I think I've been a good dictator for 20 years, now let me get back to my stamp collection and go fishing in the countryside."
3. 30:00 – 41:40

   (laughs) …

   1. FDFrank Dikötter30:00

      or a cult of personality used in the case of, um, democratically elected people. Theresa May-

   2. CWChris Williamson30:09

      (laughs)

   3. FDFrank Dikötter30:09

      ... uh, or, or, or Trump, sometimes even the Pope. But quite clearly, uh, there was a time in the 1930s, in the 1950s, in the 1970s when half the planet was run by rather nasty dictators. Now, remember that even in Europe up 'til 1973...... there was no talk about Western democracy, as in Western Europe, because it was only the northwest of Europe. In Portugal, you had Salazar, in Spain, you had Franco, in Greece, you had a number of nasty generals. It was all and only- only with the Carnation Revolution in Portugal and the death of Franco that all of a sudden one could talk about Western Europe as being democratic, never mind the rest of the world.

   4. CWChris Williamson30:55

      (laughs)

   5. FDFrank Dikötter30:55

      And then you have the collapse of the Soviet Union, all of it, in '91, '92. So we've come a very long way. It's not to say that we shouldn't be vigilant.

   6. CWChris Williamson31:08

      Do you think it would be realistic for a dictator to rise to power now?

   7. FDFrank Dikötter31:15

      It's bloody hard work.

   8. CWChris Williamson31:19

      (laughs)

   9. FDFrank Dikötter31:21

      And (laughs) I would say that as a result of all the dictatorships we've had in the 20th century, it is extremely difficult, because with every dictator that has been defeated, uh, democracy has been reinforced, has been fortified. That separation of powers has become more entrenched. The separation, uh, of power, the checks and balances have become far more sophisticated. So it's difficult. It's not to say that, uh, we don't have dictatorships. Clearly there is one in the People's Republic of China, and clearly there's one in Northern Korea and other countries. Um, but overall, um, I would think it's pretty much a losing battle.

   10. CWChris Williamson32:04

       Yeah. You're gonna be fighting against the tide a little bit, aren't you?

   11. FDFrank Dikötter32:07

       Very much so.

   12. CWChris Williamson32:07

       It's interesting, interesting what you say about this cult of personality and these, these terms that are thrown around, these slurs or labels or sometimes just throwaway lines-

   13. FDFrank Dikötter32:20

       Mm-hmm.

   14. CWChris Williamson32:20

       ... people are constantly looking for the new world order, there's the accusations of the Queen being a lizard person or-

   15. FDFrank Dikötter32:28

       Mm-hmm.

   16. CWChris Williamson32:28

       ... Donald Trump being part of some Masonian lodge that's actually trying... You know, i- i- is this, is this people chasing down a narrative which has kind of been and gone a little bit now?

   17. FDFrank Dikötter32:43

       Well, it trivializes what happened-

   18. CWChris Williamson32:45

       Yeah.

   19. FDFrank Dikötter32:45

       ... to hundreds of millions of ordinary people-

   20. CWChris Williamson32:49

       Mm-hmm.

   21. FDFrank Dikötter32:49

       ... throughout the 20th century. Um, in the People's Republic of China, under Mao alone, tens of millions of people were starved, beaten, worked to death. Um, the number of victims under Stalin is also enormous, not to mention Adolf Hitler. So when we use terms like a coup or dictator or cult of personality, um, for people who have been more or less democratically elected in the 21st, um, I think there's a danger of, uh, losing any sense of perspective.

   22. CWChris Williamson33:22

       That's happening with everything at the moment though, right? The p- people are throwing around the word Nazi like it's, uh, c- calling someone tall, like it's just a, a, a, a common word to call someone, or accusing Trump of being a white supremacist. And he said a lot of things that I find pretty, uh, terrible to agree with, but there's a big jump between what he said and being a white supremacist.

   23. FDFrank Dikötter33:47

       I- indeed. If you want to know whether there's a dictatorship or not, I would say travel to the country you are interested in and find out if you can say something negative about the man in charge. Well, I would say there's plenty in the United States that is critical of Trump.

   24. CWChris Williamson34:06

       Is that the canary in the coal mine?

   25. FDFrank Dikötter34:09

       Pretty much. If you don't want to go to the United States, why don't you travel to the People's Republic of China and see if you can say something negative about Xi Jinping? I would say good luck with that one.

   26. CWChris Williamson34:20

       What do you think would happen?

   27. FDFrank Dikötter34:22

       I think you'll be arrested and put away.

   28. CWChris Williamson34:25

       Wow. Is that, that's how quickly they're going to respond? How would they find out? Would it be, uh, somebody else, another member of the general public?

   29. FDFrank Dikötter34:35

       Yes. You'll be denounced. Try publishing something, be very difficult. There's no freedom of speech. There's no freedom of publication.

   30. CWChris Williamson34:44

       (sighs) Uh, what's happening in China at the moment to me just seems, it seems so alien given the current makeup of the world in the 21st century.

Episode duration: 41:40