How To Break Free From Your Old Story - Dr John Delony

Chris Williamson 0:00 Dr. John Delony, welcome to the show.

Dr. John Delony 0:01 My man, Chris.

Chris Williamson 0:02 How are you?

Dr. John Delony 0:02 Thanks for the... Uh, dude, I'm fantastic. I love being back in Texas where I was born and raised, man. It's good. Are you adjusting?

Chris Williamson 0:09 I am slowly becoming native. Someone told me that I was allowed to use the word y'all because I've been here for three years now.

Dr. John Delony 0:15 That's a huge, uh, that's a huge welcome mat.

Chris Williamson 0:18 I get the sense-

Dr. John Delony 0:19 That's big, man.

Chris Williamson 0:20 I get the sense that it is me being conned into saying the equivalent of the N-word-

Dr. John Delony 0:25 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 0:25 ... for Texan people. And the Texas Tribune is gonna catch me hard R-ing my way through-

Dr. John Delony 0:30 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 0:30 ... y'all a couple of times. So I'm not falling for the, the psyop. Um, I, I can't, I can't quite get to that. I'm up to sidewalk and, and, and trash can, but y'all, not yet.

Dr. John Delony 0:40 And so what's the, what's the alternative to trash can?

Chris Williamson 0:43 Rubbish.

Dr. John Delony 0:43 Oh.

Chris Williamson 0:44 Rubbish bin.

Dr. John Delony 0:44 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Chris Williamson 0:45 Uh, pavement.

Dr. John Delony 0:45 You gotta be careful with rubbish bin here.

Chris Williamson 0:47 Rubbish bin. Yeah.

Dr. John Delony 0:47 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Chris Williamson 0:47 You don't know what that means. Crack that open. Come on, get it in you.

Dr. John Delony 0:49 All right.

Chris Williamson 0:50 You've been waiting for this.

Dr. John Delony 0:51 I've been excited for this moment.

Chris Williamson 0:52 Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, you'll have an unlimited amount going to the office soon.

Dr. John Delony 0:55 Well, I appreciate that, man.

Chris Williamson 0:55 Orange Sunrise for you.

Dr. John Delony 0:57 Excellent. This is my first one. This is my, uh, live review.

Chris Williamson 1:03 Cherry popper.

Dr. John Delony 1:04 That's outstanding. That's outstanding.

Chris Williamson 1:06 Fuck.

Dr. John Delony 1:06 Well done, man.

Chris Williamson 1:07 Thank you.

Dr. John Delony 1:08 Well done.

Chris Williamson 1:08 Good, good. Yeah, it's, uh, you're now five IQ points smarter. 10. That's it. Each sip is, uh, like-

Dr. John Delony 1:14 I accept, man. Light me up like a Christmas tree.

Chris Williamson 1:15 ... half a standard deviation. All right, um, I have no idea how I didn't stumble across you and the work that you do, because it aligns so much with lots of the things that I'm very interested in, and I really appreciate the way that you are firm but gentle and reassuring-

Dr. John Delony 1:33 Mm.

Chris Williamson 1:33 ... I think when you speak to people.

Dr. John Delony 1:34 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:35 Um, a lot of the conversations around relationships and, uh, dating and mental health tend, to me, to either be so soft as to not have an impact-

Dr. John Delony 1:46 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:46 ... or so brusque and, and, and harsh as to cause people to get defensive and for it to feel a little bit more about the host or the, the, the commentator, the advice giver-

Dr. John Delony 1:55 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:55 ... than it is about the person who has the problem. So yeah, I think, uh, like, really, really great your ability-

Dr. John Delony 2:01 I appreciate that.

Chris Williamson 2:01 ... to balance that.

Dr. John Delony 2:03 It's, um, I wanted so badly to be the, uh, the Heuerman of, of mental health and of relationships. And early on, it was very clear that's not why people wanna talk to you. They've never seen a big, tall, loud, tattooed up Texan talk to that mother who just blew her life up, like, compassionately.

Chris Williamson 2:24 Mm-hmm.

Dr. John Delony 2:24 And I think in our, in our strange little weird, uh, ecosystem that we live in, there's a lot of people that know about stuff, and they've just never sat with hurting people, right? There's a lot of theories and a lot of ideas, but man, you can hear somebody who's actually sat with somebody who just lost a child. And that's it, there's a different level of compassion, right?

Chris Williamson 2:43 What have you learned about how to hold space for somebody that's going through a difficult time from the, um, my first ever relationship just broke up with me all the way through to the I just lost a child?

Dr. John Delony 2:59 Dude, let me tell you this. So my wife, um, she was a research professor. She quit her job for, she's like, "Man, that... It sounds strange," especially for her. "I think I wanna stay at home and have kids." And that, that was just like, like, "Who are you? What have you done with my wife?" It was amazing. We talked through it. It was awesome. And gets pregnant, miscarriage number one. Gets pregnant, miscarriage number two. Then miscarriage number three-

Chris Williamson 3:25 No way.

Dr. John Delony 3:25 ... but it was an ectopic pregnancy, and it ruptured, right? And so she's a really strong, tough West Texas woman, and she sits in that living room and says, "I'm not doing this. It's not happening again." Which, you know, like, I mean, she almost died in our living room. Well, here's the thing. After miscarriage one and especially number two, lucky for her, she was married to a guy working on his second PhD, and, uh, I was also a crisis, uh, God, the word that gives me hemorrhoids, expert. And so I would show up in the community to sit with people who'd had loss. And dude, I rubbed her nose in my charts, in my graphs, in my answers. And then this happened. So, um, a close friend of mine who's suffered imaginal- unimaginable loss. I show up with my son, who was four at the time. We go to the ER. They're wheeling her back, and when you show up at crisis scenes, it's hard to describe. There can be blood on the wall and bodies, but you make eye contact with other responders, and you know the scene's safe, you know the scene's placid. And then there's something we call crazy eyes. You look across, and it's like, "Oh, this scene's still live." Like, there might be a shooter still here, right? And you could see it. And I walked in, and I saw, made eye contact with the head of the OB-GYN down at Texas Tech Medical Center, uh, and I remember holding my son's hand, saying, "Oh, this is it. This is the last time I see her." They wheel her off. I text somebody to come pick my son up. I go to this little room that's about this big. And a buddy of mine, a West Texas rancher who's a children's author, walks in, hat, everything. He's taller than me. He nods. I say nothing, he says nothing. He sits by me. 30 minutes, one hour, one and a half hours, two hours. Then the physician busts in the door holding a, like, a iPad thing, and she says, "You lost the baby, but your wife's okay." And I exhaled, and this rancher, who he hadn't spoken other than hey, he reaches over and grabs my shoe. And I look over at him, and he starts crying tears I don't even have yet. But the, the, the important thing is he said no words, and it didn't matter. And in a culture that we won't shut up, Chris, um, when your friend has a breakup, golly, dude, the last thing they need is all of your theories and answers and, "Well, oh my gosh, let's Google it." That's, that's catastrophic. They just need you to sit there and bring tacos, bring a bottle of wine, or bring whatever you got in the fridge. You know what I mean? And we don't have a culture of presence. We have a culture of answers, of talking. And so what I've learned over the year... What do you say to a mother whose kid is dead in that room right there? Nothing. But she'll remember that hug, right? She'll remember that exhale, and that will get her to the next gulp of air, to the next gulp of air, right? There's just no words, man. And so the more I've been sitting with hurting people, I-... I'm finding myself talking less and less and less and less.

Chris Williamson 6:13 The most, and it's a beautiful story and, uh, the first time that I ever really started thinking about this was, uh, Sean Strickland on Theo Von's podcast-

Dr. John Delony 6:26 Mm.

Chris Williamson 6:27 ... a year ago-

Dr. John Delony 6:27 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 6:28 ... when Sean has that really bad, bad experience sort of reliving his childhood. And, um, Charlie Hooper from Charisma on Command did this unbelievable breakdown. He's redone it again, he's run it back on his other channel. And it's so beautiful, he just explains. He's, Sean is sort of gripping this bottle, uh, I think he's gripping the bottle with his left hand, he's sort of dr- drinking from it like this and you can see he's grasping with this left hand, he's actually trying to grip onto something, he's trying to get a hold of-

Dr. John Delony 6:54 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 6:54 ... of security and firmness. And Charlie's breaking down, his body language. You can see what Theo does that drops him in and then pulls him out and then he goes back in again, um, because Theo kind of, he doesn't make it about him. He, he does like a triple A, I don't want to give any shade on Theo, he's, he, he literally inspired me to become a better space holder, a better communicator in, in difficult times. Um, but there's some things that you do that just rip someone out just a little bit and then they, they close off and they, "Well, you know, like, what does it matter? I'm a big guy. I'm a, I'm a grown adult." And then he sort of starts to get back into it, starts to get back into it. And then, you know, the most beautiful thing that Theo says in that entire exchange is, is like, "We don't need to talk, man. We can just sit here for a while if you want."

Dr. John Delony 7:32 That's it. And that's somebody who only knows that 'cause they've been hurt too. Right? Like, "Don't say anything. I'll just sit here with you."

Chris Williamson 7:41 Powerful, dude.

Dr. John Delony 7:41 What a gift.

Chris Williamson 7:42 What else? What else? So shut up.

Dr. John Delony 7:46 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 7:46 One of the first things that you should do when trying to help somebody that's going through stuff. What else?

Dr. John Delony 7:50 Um, yeah. I think if, that sounds easy in theory, but I think that what else happens before. I have to do my own work that I believe I'm worthy of the space I'm gonna hold with you, right? So I gotta show up okay. Most of the people, I'll say most of the people, um, who get diagnosed with cancer, who lose a loved one, who lose a pregnancy, et cetera, they'll tell you they found themselves responsible for making sure everybody else was okay. And don't text somebody, "How's it going?" Like, you really wanna know how's it going, right? And I'm gonna text that back to you. Um, bring food, show up and con-... I mean, I think it's, it's action. It's action. It's action. It's action. I'm gonna go mow your lawn and I trust you to tell me to stop. I'm gonna keep-

Chris Williamson 8:34 (laughs)

Dr. John Delony 8:34 ... sending tacos and you may have 5,000 tacos and they may go straight to the trashcan, um, but you're gonna n- you're gonna know when the fog lifts, you were loved, you were cared. Yeah. You were cared for.

Chris Williamson 8:47 Yeah. I, uh, I had, uh, an, an incident that opened up, uh, something similar. It was my birthday a couple of weeks ago and, um, I finished recording upstairs, finished this episode and came down and Jonathan, who's outside, his dog was walking around. I was like, "What the fuck's Jonathan's dog doing here? Uh, oh, he must be here to show us the new merch samples," because we were signing to get merch done. And as I walked in, it turned out that there was a surprise birthday, like, celebration for me.

Dr. John Delony 9:15 Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Chris Williamson 9:16 And there was only five people there, all of them worked for me in one form or another, or worked with me and, uh, it was the middle of the day on a Friday. So, like, who's free at 2:00 PM on a Friday to come and do stuff? And it was tiny... And my best friend was getting married the next day and I was his best man here in Texas. So, you know, I'm, my head's in a different place, I'm thinking about the speech. I've g- you know, I've just finished this episode. Oh, I gotta go and work on the speech. I gotta remember the thing, the do the joke about the white people.

Dr. John Delony 9:40 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 9:40 And, uh, I come down and there's, you know, five people and th- they'd put a banner up and it said, "Happy birthday," and there was a cake and they were, one of the guys was filming it, our videographer Max was filming it. And, uh, I was like, "Oh, this is really, really beautiful." And then we sat down and we had some cakes. It was all laid out really nicely. Then they sang Happy Birthday to me and there was this bit, there was this sense as I went down, (laughs) as you said there, about almost having this odd guilt debt that you want to repay to people because, well, if, if they're doing this just because they love me-

Dr. John Delony 10:17 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 10:17 ... then I need to be able to sort of feel that in a way.

Dr. John Delony 10:20 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 10:20 As opposed to there being some sort of value exchange, you know, all of these people in one form or another work with me, work for me.

Dr. John Delony 10:27 Mm.

Chris Williamson 10:27 And, uh, that's fine. You know, we're working together, we're building this project, we're doing the whatever thing. And, uh, yeah. Watching five people sing Happy Birthday to me at 2:30 PM on a Friday, I did a live show in London last year to three and a half thousand people. The five people-

Dr. John Delony 10:40 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 10:40 ... was way more uncomfortable.

Dr. John Delony 10:42 Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Chris Williamson 10:43 Because I was seen by them in a way.

Dr. John Delony 10:44 But, but think of, think of the world we've set up. Um, uh, Dr. Joiner, he is out of, uh, Florida State. He writes really eloquently on suicide.

Chris Williamson 10:53 Right.

Dr. John Delony 10:54 And one of the, the, the three legs of the stool is of, when you're doing a suicide assessment, is perceived burdensomeness.

Chris Williamson 11:01 Mm-hmm.

Dr. John Delony 11:02 Does that idea ring-

Chris Williamson 11:03 People would be better if I wasn't here.

Dr. John Delony 11:04 If I wasn't here. But look at the world we've built, like, I'm not gonna ask you to take me to the airport, I'll just Uber. I'm not gonna ask you, "Can I borrow some eggs and sugar?" I'm just gonna, like, Instacart or whatever. And I think the meta-narrative is, my presence is a burden too.

Chris Williamson 11:21 Oh, yes.

Dr. John Delony 11:21 And if you guys a-... It's, it's the air we breathe that everyone, I'm going to bother people. Even, and now every relationship we have is transactional. And your experiences, man, it's very common that you wake up and the only people in your life are on your payroll or on somebody's payroll-

Chris Williamson 11:36 Mm-hmm.

Dr. John Delony 11:36 Like y'all are on, on the same payroll.

Chris Williamson 11:37 Mm-hmm.

Dr. John Delony 11:38 And man, (exhales) toot, toot, toot, toot. That, (laughs) your body would be failing you if it let you sleep all night 'cause it knows you're lonely, right?

Chris Williamson 11:47 Mm-hmm. In some ways I've heard you, uh, this, um, do you have people in your life that you can talk to that are just your friends that you don't work with? That seems to be a common thread-

Dr. John Delony 11:57 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 11:57 ... in some of the conversations-

Dr. John Delony 11:58 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Chris Williamson 11:59 ... that you speak to. You, you have some housewife, I've heard you speak to a bunch of these recently, uh, uh, a housewife who's, uh, s- there was one that had insomnia. She kept waking up throughout the night.

Dr. John Delony 12:07 Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Chris Williamson 12:08 And, and, uh, you said, "How-"

Dr. John Delony 12:08 That same thing, yeah.

Chris Williamson 12:08 "... how many friends have you got?" And you dug real deep and it turned out she did have-

Dr. John Delony 12:12 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 12:12 It seemed like she had quite a good social network. But yes, it does seem, we spend so much time at work.... and we're so obsessed with, um, productivity and moving forward in some way that we don't have friends for the sake of being friends with them. We have friends who are, uh, compatriots and, uh, soldiers in whatever battle it is that we're fighting. Against getting our Brazilian jiu-jitsu purple belt, against becoming better at pickleball, against learning to salsa dance, against learning to do improv-

Dr. John Delony 12:40 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 12:40 ... against a job interview that, with the promotion, whatever it is. And, uh, it's an odd blend, you-

Dr. John Delony 12:48 It makes people into a 401K.

Chris Williamson 12:50 Is it, is it your opinion that there is something lesser about-

Dr. John Delony 12:54 No.

Chris Williamson 12:55 ... friendship with people that you work with too?

Dr. John Delony 12:57 Uh, no. I, the fear I have is when you don't have jiu-jitsu and when you don't have... I remember, dude, training at MMA gym, dude, that's the most eclectic, wacky group of people that had a shared mission that all got together.

Chris Williamson 13:09 Like, you've selected for a group that wanna be punched in the face, so-

Dr. John Delony 13:11 Yeah, but there's also, like, a male nurse, and this guy doesn't have a job at all, and this guy's a dean of students. I mean, it was a-

Chris Williamson 13:16 Sleeping in his car.

Dr. John Delony 13:17 ... random group of people. Um, no, the problem with only having friends at work is if something ever doesn't work out there, you find yourself on an island in a moment when you need people.

Chris Williamson 13:29 Mm-hmm.

Dr. John Delony 13:30 And so if you get let go, if you have a problem at work, then you also have a problem everywhere else in your life.

Chris Williamson 13:34 Well, it's the same issue with men who get divorced, right? The single most predictive lifestyle-

Dr. John Delony 13:41 It's like, why? Yeah.

Chris Williamson 13:42 ... change for suicide is men who get divorced. The reason being, it seems, women are much better at holding onto their own social networks when they get into a marriage, whereas men supplant their own social networks and they use the wives'.

Dr. John Delony 13:55 That's right.

Chris Williamson 13:56 So, you know, the wife has all the female friends and the female friends have husbands, and you as the husband become friends with the husbands of her friends.

Dr. John Delony 14:04 That's it. (laughs) That's it, man. And you sit there like, "Yeah, it's hot, yeah."

Chris Williamson 14:08 You- (laughs)

Dr. John Delony 14:09 "Yeah, how's work?"

Chris Williamson 14:10 Yeah.

Dr. John Delony 14:10 "Good."

Chris Williamson 14:10 The only, the only thing you have in common is the fact that your wife knows their wife.

Dr. John Delony 14:13 That's it.

Chris Williamson 14:13 And, yeah, and then wh-

Dr. John Delony 14:14 And then usually that is (laughs) y'all have kids in the same age.

Chris Williamson 14:18 Mm-hmm.

Dr. John Delony 14:18 And then when that kid moves up, yeah, the whole, the, the tether gets pulled on everything.

Chris Williamson 14:22 Yeah. Yeah, it's, um, that ability to be able to sit with, "Oh, well, people actually want to be here-"

Dr. John Delony 14:28 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 14:29 "... for this." Uh, there's a degree of discomfort.

Dr. John Delony 14:30 Not for this. For you.

Chris Williamson 14:32 Yes.

Dr. John Delony 14:32 And that's hard to hold.

Chris Williamson 14:34 James, you spoke about him earlier on the other half of Mutonic, um, I fucking love this story. I tell it all the time, but I fucking adore it. He did a load of mushrooms.

Dr. John Delony 14:42 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 14:42 I won't, I won't, I won't mention the country in, in, in case that they're gonna kick him out. Uh, did a load of mushrooms on a rock, and this question came to him, and the question was, "Do people love you for who you are or for what you do?"

Dr. John Delony 14:53 Mm.

Chris Williamson 14:54 And, you know, people loving you for what you do feels transactional, it feels flimsy-

Dr. John Delony 15:03 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 15:04 ... uh, it feels volatile. And, you know, the subtext is, if I stopped doing what I do, then the love would be taken away from me as well. What we want is people to love us for who we are because it feels grounded and, um, uh, forever. It- i- i- it's, uh, attached to our sense of self, where our work isn't. Um, and it's, uh, rigid, right?

Dr. John Delony 15:25 Mm.

Chris Williamson 15:25 And, you know, I told this story on the pod, and someone asked, "Well, it's an interesting question, but a more interesting question is do you love you for who you are or for what you do?"

Dr. John Delony 15:35 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 15:36 Because a lot of the time, we want the world to love us for who we are. Meanwhile, we love us for what we do.

Dr. John Delony 15:40 That's right.

Chris Williamson 15:40 So you're asking the world to show up for you in a way that you're not prepared to show up for yourself.

Dr. John Delony 15:46 That's right.

Chris Williamson 15:46 You don't love you for who you are-

Dr. John Delony 15:49 That's right.

Chris Williamson 15:50 ... for the fact that you actually care about other people-

Dr. John Delony 15:53 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 15:53 ... that you have empathy, that, yeah, sure, it looks a little bit wimpy when you cry at Christmas films, but it's because you've got a soft side to you-

Dr. John Delony 16:00 Right, right. (laughs)

Chris Williamson 16:00 ... or because you're really reliable. You know, like, like, genuine good traits that are as timeless as you can be. You, no, no, no, no, you've judged yourself on the last 10 hours of productivity and the fact that you got distracted on YouTube for 30 minutes despite the fact that you've crushed it. Even if you look at your productivity over the last six months, you've crushed it as well. But, no, no, no, you're gonna, you know exactly where your shortcomings lie and the scabs that you can pick at and the scars, and you know exactly what to say to yourself to torture yourself about these things.

Dr. John Delony 16:29 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 16:29 And y- y- you're not a nice friend to you-

Dr. John Delony 16:33 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 16:34 ... but you want the world to be a nice friend to you.

Dr. John Delony 16:36 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 16:36 You want the world to love you for who you are, meanwhile you love you for what you do.

Dr. John Delony 16:39 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 16:39 And I just thought that was such a lovely little-

Dr. John Delony 16:41 No, I think it's, uh, uh, um... Cut me off if you've heard me s- talk about this. It was after book number two comes out, so I grew up in a house we didn't have a lot, right? And money was electric. Uh, there was always a sense of tension. Always, always, always, always. And the book comes out, um, my wife and I, she was raised by teachers, my dad was a policeman and then he became a minister. So we-

Chris Williamson 17:06 Lot of authority.

Dr. John Delony 17:08 Uh, my therapist, when I walked in, I was like, "My dad's a cop and a minister?" She was like, "Get in the lake house," right?

Chris Williamson 17:12 (laughs)

Dr. John Delony 17:12 It's, very happy.

Chris Williamson 17:14 We've got lots to work with.

Dr. John Delony 17:15 Very happy. Um, but both of us come with not a lot, right? And so then you find yourself in this wild new world, right? Where, of abundance, don't have psychology for it. I'm downstairs, my family has come and they've been with us maybe seven to 10 days, too long, and they know it, I know it, it's that strange, like, uh, "It'd be good if y'all left," and they're like, "Would be good if we left," and it's just that awkward. They leave, I've got COVID, um, as they're leaving, and then I'm working out in one, the gym in my basement. My manager calls, and he says, "Hey, you know those two speaking event gigs we were hoping to land? You got a second?" And the way he, he called, I was like, "Ah, man, we didn't get it." He calls and starts yelling into the phone, "We got 'em!"

Chris Williamson 17:56 (laughs)

Dr. John Delony 17:56 And I start yelling-

Chris Williamson 17:57 Mm-hmm.

Dr. John Delony 17:57 ... 'cause these were the last two, like, transformational-

Chris Williamson 18:01 Mm.

Dr. John Delony 18:01 ... financially for me. And I start cheering, I start yelling, "Yeah!" My wife comes downstairs into the basement, she's like, "What are you yelling about?" And I was like, "We got 'em! I'm going to speak at this thing, this thing." And, um, she's a very stoic West Texas woman, like just will withdraw and wait till things are calm. She didn't do that. She came forward this time.And she got this close, which is not how she does conflict, and she said, "I'm watching my husband die and I'm watching him cheer the whole way. And I'm gaunt, I'm exhausted, I'm sweaty, I'm sick, I'm peopled out, and I'm cheering." And then she said this, she said, "The pie piece, the, the pie chart of how much I love you and the pie piece for how much money you make is full." And then she said, "We have enough." And she turned and walked away. And I angrily was like, "What the hell is enough?"

Chris Williamson 18:54 (laughs)

Dr. John Delony 18:54 And it was like for it. And I didn't understand, what does that mean when someone just says, "No, no, no, no, I picked you." The joke in our house is she bought real low on me, right? Like, she bought in the stock market-

Chris Williamson 19:05 Bitcoin at $0.05.

Dr. John Delony 19:06 ... really low on me.

Chris Williamson 19:07 Yeah.

Dr. John Delony 19:07 Um, she's like, "I picked you. And this is cool, this is awesome, but I picked you." And at part of the exchange she was like, "You can go do your speaking events. I told you when I married you, I would never tell you no."

Chris Williamson 19:18 Mm.

Dr. John Delony 19:18 "Go do it. This is for your ego, this is not for us." And I got hot, but then I, like I went straight to the therapist's office. But we ended up in this, in this moment. She said, "I want you to take your fist and put it in your chest and say the words to me, 'I love this man.'" And that was the first time I was like, "Oh, I'm, I'm over my head. I'm stuck." I couldn't say the word. I couldn't do that act.

Chris Williamson 19:39 Mm.

Dr. John Delony 19:40 And in front of another grown woman, I could not say, "I love this guy." And then I was like, "I got a problem," right? I'm asking the world to give me something that I won't honor myself to give myself. It's tough. It's tough.

Chris Williamson 19:53 How did you work through that?

Dr. John Delony 19:54 Very, very slowly. Very slowly. Yeah. It's, uh, it sounds, it sounds obscene to, to think I've gotta practice, but I have to practice saying, "You're a good dad." Yeah. This sounds cheesy. I carry this with me. This is it. Like, when the thoughts pop in, like, "Oh, your kids would be better off if you were at home right now," no, they wouldn't. They're doing great. They're... Right? It's that negative self-talk and just resetting that on the Oh, so you're C- you're doing some CBT homework all the time. Right. That's exactly right. Yeah. Yeah.

Chris Williamson 20:22 My...

Dr. John Delony 20:22 Or, or ACT. A-C-T, yeah.

Chris Williamson 20:23 I've started CBT this year. And, uh, I, I did a twice weekly psychotherapy for a year.

Dr. John Delony 20:30 Okay.

Chris Williamson 20:30 And, um...

Dr. John Delony 20:31 How was that?

Chris Williamson 20:32 Uh, tough actually.

Dr. John Delony 20:33 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 20:33 In retrospect. Wasn't so tough at the time. Um, I loved it. Uh, my therapist was amazing. It taught me an awful lot about myself. It taught me more about myself than one and a half thousand sessions of meditation.

Dr. John Delony 20:45 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 20:45 Uh, and many, many years of journaling, um, because somebody else is pointing at the things that you've got that are going on inside of your mind.

Dr. John Delony 20:51 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 20:51 But it opens an awful lot of loops that it doesn't close.

Dr. John Delony 20:54 'Cause there's no action steps. Yeah, that's exactly right. Yeah.

Chris Williamson 20:56 Correct.

Dr. John Delony 20:56 Yeah, yeah.

Chris Williamson 20:56 Uh, and maybe for some people who aren't as dopamine, norepinephrine-y as me, that's fine, because they can just sit in the story. But if I've-

Dr. John Delony 21:07 I can't do that.

Chris Williamson 21:08 ... if I've got open loops, I'm gonna try and fix them. And I think that this is... There's lots of different modalities where people can improve their mental health, where people can improve the quality of their life. Uh, your outcomes may vary-

Dr. John Delony 21:18 Sure. Yeah, yeah.

Chris Williamson 21:18 ... as they say in trading or whatever it is. And I think psychotherapy is really, really useful for learning about yourself, but you need something which is more action focused. So for me, uh, CBT has been fascinating. Um, it's been very rewarding. But fuck, dude, it's hard.

Dr. John Delony 21:34 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 21:35 Because for the people that don't know, cognitive behavioral therapy is basically one hour a week where you speak to a guy, and then the remaining, whatever it is, 163 hours a week where you do homework.

Dr. John Delony 21:47 Challenge the thoughts, yeah.

Chris Williamson 21:48 You do homework. He gives you homework. And it's not... I have... In... If you looked at the reminders in my phone, you'd think I was a crazy person.

Dr. John Delony 21:55 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 21:55 I've got, like, "Punch the bully."

Dr. John Delony 21:56 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 21:57 Reple- uh, it repeats-

Dr. John Delony 21:58 Yeah, yeah.

Chris Williamson 21:58 ... every three hours throughout the day. Um, i- journaling practi- Anyway, it's been really interesting.

Dr. John Delony 22:03 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 22:04 Um, but talking about s-

Dr. John Delony 22:05 I didn't find that as useful. I, I... CBT is obviously, it's the, it's the gold standard. I found the ACT, the app-, uh, acceptance and commitment. Instead of challenging the thoughts so much, just letting them walk by. Or letting them be that guy at the table that always... You know, you always know that guy. Everybody has that friend. And, "All right, you've spoken. I appreciate it. I'm gonna move on."

Chris Williamson 22:25 That's interesting.

Dr. John Delony 22:26 And that, it keeps me from going to war with myself.

Chris Williamson 22:28 Hmm.

Dr. John Delony 22:29 Otherwise, I stay in co- I stay in constant conflict with myself, and that gets exhausting for me.

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Chris Williamson 23:39 Men want to aim high without feeling insufficient if they fall short. Men want their suffering to be recognized and appreciated without being pandered to or patronized and made to feel weak. Men want to believe that they can become more without feeling like they're not enough already. Men want to be able to open up without being judged. Men want support without feeling broken. Men want to be loved for who they are, not for what they do. Too long, didn't read, blending inspiration with compassion is not an easy task.

Dr. John Delony 24:02 Mm.

Chris Williamson 24:03 "How do I set lofty goals which drive me to fulfill my potential without feeling less than if I don't get there tomorrow?" said every guy ever. The desire for self-love and high performance comes into conflict inside of the mind of everyone, men especially. Sure, some men are all drive and goals with non-introspection. And sure, some men are all reflection and inner work with few external desires."But most men desire a mix of encouraged self-belief and understanding support. Inevitably, these two things come into conflict. Basically, every man just wants to hear, 'I know you can be more, but you are enough already, and even if you just stay where you are, I'll be right here next to you. You're going to be great, but you don't need to be great, and I'm with you no matter what.' Or, as said best by Sturgill Simpson's mum, 'Boy, I don't care if you hit it big because you're already number one.'"

Dr. John Delony 24:51 Mm. Yeah. That's powerful.

Chris Williamson 24:53 And that reminds me of what your wife said.

Dr. John Delony 24:54 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 24:55 You know? Like, this is all great, but it also throws into harsh contrast, why am I doing it?

Dr. John Delony 25:02 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 25:02 If people love me for who I am, why am I doing what I do?

Dr. John Delony 25:06 Yeah. Well, if you're doing it because you think it's gonna feel some way on the back end, that's, that's the tale as old as time, right? That's the great, that's the, the Jim Carey speech, right?

Chris Williamson 25:18 I wish everyone could become rich and famous as ouchy, it's not gonna fix something.

Dr. John Delony 25:21 Yeah, it's nonsense. Yeah, it's nonsense. And, I think the, the alternative that we've got the last 15, 20 years is, "Well, I'm just gonna opt out and play video games," and that's a recipe for disaster too. I think we, uh, you know Michael Easter's book, The Comfort Crisis-

Chris Williamson 25:34 Yep, mm-hmm.

Dr. John Delony 25:34 ... which I think is a masterpiece, I think we have a culture that's, that's allergic to discomfort. And so I think that tension is, that's where joy is. That's where meaning is, is, "I'm enough, and I can hold that loosely enough so that I can hit that guy real hard."

Chris Williamson 25:49 Mm-hmm.

Dr. John Delony 25:49 They, they edited a breakdown on ESPN the other day of Alex, uh, Pereira-

Chris Williamson 25:55 Pereira.

Dr. John Delony 25:55 ... and his, they talk about how hard he hits, that it's otherworldly. And the, they had an interview with the referee, he's like, "He, the sound it makes when he hits another human is different," right?

Chris Williamson 26:06 (laughs)

Dr. John Delony 26:06 And I just thought, "Man, c- c- can you imagine being able to do that?" But they say it comes from how calm he is, right?

Chris Williamson 26:11 Mm. Mm.

Dr. John Delony 26:11 His ability to stay at, until he uncorks.

Chris Williamson 26:15 Yeah.

Dr. John Delony 26:16 And, um, my coach used to always say, like, "Dude, you're like a bear. You're, like, so tense all the time, and it takes away." And so I think if men knew, "Oh, she loves me no matter what," that actually drives that anchor deep into the concrete so you can rappel off the edge and go do something bananas.

Chris Williamson 26:33 Yeah. Yeah, that-

Dr. John Delony 26:33 And it sounds counterintuitive.

Chris Williamson 26:34 Mm-hmm. Yeah, that you don't need to push me. I'll push myself more if I know that I don't need to.

Dr. John Delony 26:39 Let me know I'm anchored.

Chris Williamson 26:40 Yeah.

Dr. John Delony 26:40 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Chris Williamson 26:40 Well, I mean, that, you know, that's a phenomenal piece of advice. And, uh, I'd, I put that essay out, and perhaps unsurprisingly, a lot of, uh, girls, the women who, uh, caught ahold of it or followed me on Instagram said, "Well, like, women want this too." And I'm like, "Yeah, I'm, they, I'm sure they do."

Dr. John Delony 26:56 Can I tell you that drives me crazy? That makes me insane, dude. The every conversation has to be so universal at all times.

Chris Williamson 27:05 You've got to equivocate at all times.

Dr. John Delony 27:07 God almighty, if I write a note on Instagram to dads, that's just-

Chris Williamson 27:12 What about mums?

Dr. John Delony 27:13 I g- and yes, mums too.

Chris Williamson 27:15 Mm-hmm.

Dr. John Delony 27:15 But I was, I failed as a dad in this moment. I'll just write myself a note.

Chris Williamson 27:18 You'll notice that it doesn't really happen in the other direction.

Dr. John Delony 27:20 God almighty, dude. It's wild. It's wild.

Chris Williamson 27:22 I had a conversation with Richard Reeves sat here. Um, do you know Richard?

Dr. John Delony 27:26 Gosh, what, oh my gosh, yes, of Boys Over Men.

Chris Williamson 27:28 Yeah. So, he's great.

Dr. John Delony 27:28 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 27:29 American Institute of Boys And Men, and, um, it was the second time he'd been on, and we got, we went for, like, three and a half hours. It was phenomenal. Um, and I mentioned I was getting a bit frustrated at the fact that every time I talk about the problems facing boys and men, I need to do this weird social land acknowledgment-

Dr. John Delony 27:46 Oh, yeah. (laughs) Yeah, dude.

Chris Williamson 27:47 ... about the fact, "Well, we must recognize that there is issues that women have faced, and we have to remember that it's only been in a recent time that men have been falling behind, and we must not forget the fact that we've gotta hear the sexual assaults and blah, blah, blah."

Dr. John Delony 27:57 Right, right, right.

Chris Williamson 27:57 "And after we've gone through all of that, let's begin to talk about men."

Dr. John Delony 27:59 (laughs) It's the Seinfeld, "Not that there's anything wrong with that," right? The everything has to have a qualifier.

Chris Williamson 28:02 Yeah, exactly.

Dr. John Delony 28:02 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 28:02 And I'm like, "Can I say this once at the beginning of my career-"

Dr. John Delony 28:06 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 28:07 "... and never have to say it again?" Like w- because the, it's, you know, part of it's clipping culture that if somebody's able to pull you out of context-

Dr. John Delony 28:13 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 28:13 ... by not having said the thing. And even if you do, if you say it at the beginning, this happened to me the other day. Uh, uh, I said the thing, I said it, and it just got cut off. I'm like, "Right, well, fuck. I might as well not even say it."

Dr. John Delony 28:22 You can't. But what about this? What if, what if, as a, as a society, we just d- chose, "I'm gonna think the best of Chris"?

Chris Williamson 28:30 Well, the problem is-

Dr. John Delony 28:31 God almighty, dude.

Chris Williamson 28:31 ... we don't like to think the best of people because hypocrisy on the internet is like catnip, right? Being able to catch somebody out. This was the reason, you remember when Joe got, uh, popped for his N-word video, um-

Dr. John Delony 28:44 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 28:44 ... which is like five minutes of you hard, uh, actually hard R-ing your way through stuff.

Dr. John Delony 28:47 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Chris Williamson 28:48 A combination of aying and hard R-ing. Anyway, um, this video goes live, and, uh, Joe's like, "Yeah, fuck, that looks bad. That's, that's, that's not, that's not good." And the internet was told by legacy media, "This is what this guy is truly like, and this is what it means about him. He's really the secret bigoted, racist, homophobic, xenophobic, transphobe, blah, blah, blah, that we've always known he was."

Dr. John Delony 29:13 Mm.

Chris Williamson 29:14 They were saying, "This is the tip of the iceberg, and we know that below it is all of this." But, the problem was most of the people they were trying to convince are like, "I've listened to 500 hours of him speaking. You're saying that this is the tip of the iceberg. I've seen the whole iceberg. I know there's nothing down there, or I have a reliable sense that there isn't anything down there." S- and that situation kind of taught me what gets sucked in, what, what causes people to get sucked in to this, and the precise thing is a vacuum of information-

Dr. John Delony 29:47 Mm.

Chris Williamson 29:48 ... and this speculation, the, the opportunity for people to point a finger and say, "Ah, see? I got him. I fucking, I got him."

Dr. John Delony 29:53 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 29:53 And, um, no, the, the principle of charity is not extended to people on the internet.

Dr. John Delony 29:57 But i- it's not extended to people in our homes. Like the Gottmans say when you distill all the way down what makes a great marriage beyond all, like religion, finances, are y'all friends? Like, I've got a buddy who lives, what, five hours west of here. His name's John too. He was Fat John, and I was Hyper John.

Chris Williamson 30:13 Mm.

Dr. John Delony 30:14 And back in the day, dude would always leave cans out everywhere, always. Always, always, always. The single worst text responder in human history. It doesn't matter. The guy cannot respond to a text. It's phenomenal.

Chris Williamson 30:27 Mm.

Dr. John Delony 30:28 Not one time have, have I ever left his house and thought... I- he left, leaving cans out-What is he trying to say about our friendship? Not one time.

Chris Williamson 30:36 Hmm.

Dr. John Delony 30:36 When he doesn't respond, not one time have I thought, "Does he, does he, does he not love me? What does this mean for us?"

Chris Williamson 30:41 Hmm.

Dr. John Delony 30:41 Not once. He's my friend. That guy stood in front of me and thrown punches on my behalf, literally. He's opened up his house to me for decades. He's my friend. Right? And, but I don't give my wife that, "What do these towels mean?" Right?

Chris Williamson 30:54 (laughs)

Dr. John Delony 30:54 Or like, like, "What is happening in this house?" Like, or, "There's a dish in the dishwasher. What is he trying to tell me?"

Chris Williamson 31:00 Yep.

Dr. John Delony 31:00 Right? And we make this huge character assassination. We just... It's madness. I don't even, so I don't think it, I think what's happening on the internet is a, is a magnification of what happens in our own homes. We're so unsure of ourselves, we walk around with these glasses on trying to find where everybody else has holes so we can be like, "Yep, yep, yep, yep."

Chris Williamson 31:18 Hmm.

Dr. John Delony 31:18 And that's the way we try to prop ourselves up to say, uh, "I, I, I, I've got value too." Right?

Chris Williamson 31:23 Mm-hmm.

Dr. John Delony 31:24 I can get value by burning everybody to the ground inside my own house.

Chris Williamson 31:27 Our self-worth stands on the shoulders of other people's shortcomings.

Dr. John Delony 31:29 That's it. That's it. Instead of exhaling and saying, when I walk in the door and there's a pile of towels, "Good God, what her, what, what, what must have her day been like?"

Chris Williamson 31:38 Hmm.

Dr. John Delony 31:39 I just pick up the towels. Or when I walk into John's house, I just pick up the cans.

Chris Williamson 31:42 Hmm.

Dr. John Delony 31:43 Or when he finally texts me back, right? Like, "Hey, what's up?" (laughs)

Chris Williamson 31:45 Hey.

Dr. John Delony 31:45 (laughs) I'm like, "Yeah, I'm happy to hear from him, man."

Chris Williamson 31:47 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Dr. John Delony 31:47 He's one of my best friends. So it's, it's, it's a madness. It's a madness.

Chris Williamson 31:52 Speaking about challenges, why do you think people regularly get into relationships with partners that they feel like they need to fix?

Dr. John Delony 32:00 Yeah, I think that old, that old adage in, in marriage therapy is true. You marry your unfinished business. I think the, the way I would describe it is, your nervous system puts little GPS pins in there when you're a kid. And you're constantly asking, "Why doesn't that man love me? He's supposed to." And, or, "Why is this shiny little box more important than me?" Or, "Why did my mom pick up that bottle of wine and not pick up me?" And you constantly are trying to solve that loop. And man, you get older, and you wanna, your, your body repeats what it knows, and you go in and try to solve that situation again, and you do it again. I was just talking to somebody in, in the, outside of the grocery store the other day, uh, just a minute ago about the same exact thing.

Chris Williamson 32:39 Hmm.

Dr. John Delony 32:39 Your body just goes in and tries to solve it again and solve it again. You gotta get outside that loop, um, otherwise you just repeat it and you repeat it and you repeat it, because over time, you re- realize, "Ah, the seven-year-old's not the problem. Seven-year-old's never the problem."

Chris Williamson 32:53 Well, I suppose you can become enchanted by a person that you're attached to.

Dr. John Delony 32:59 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 33:00 Which fills a literal void inside of you. And when this is a primary caretaker, this is good. But when this is an inappropriate partner, it's not. So you're used to, I think a lot of the time, if you grow up around difficult adults, children can't change or get rid of their caregivers, so they just learn to cope. They-

Dr. John Delony 33:20 They learn to solve it.

Chris Williamson 33:21 Yeah, they learn to hold on to th- long enough and in the hopes that maybe the person will take mercy on them and change. If you're five-

Dr. John Delony 33:28 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 33:29 ... you don't have a passport.

Dr. John Delony 33:30 Right.

Chris Williamson 33:30 You don't know how to leave the house. So you become, if you were not cared for in the way that you should as a child, you learned to become unusually good at surviving on a meager diet of love.

Dr. John Delony 33:46 Or you learn to sing and dance and get it. Right?

Chris Williamson 33:49 I've gotta perform.

Dr. John Delony 33:51 I, I remember, uh, one of the coolest things about going back to grad school as an old man is I had to do a practicum again. And I was working with this brilliant man named, a psychologist named Dr. Michael Gomez. And I remember we were sitting with these kids that had some pretty remarkable trauma. And one of the kids was making straight As. And during a debrief, I said, uh, "This..." He's like, "All right, who's, who's gonna struggle here? Where do we go?" And I said, "This one's gonna be okay." And I said, "Why?" And he goes, "Well, he's performing well. He's doing great. He's ma- he's making great grades." And he said something that has rattled me since. He said, "Straight As can be a trauma response too, John. And you can burn a building down. You, you will be s- You, kids will find a way to be seen, or they'll find a way to hide. They'll find a way to stay safe. And they'll nuzzle up against you." So I, I think kids are always trying to solve. And yeah, there's some that have to survive on just sips of oxygen, right?

Chris Williamson 34:43 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Dr. John Delony 34:43 Through a straw. But others will be really good on that tee ball field, man, 'cause that makes my dad exhale.

Chris Williamson 34:49 Well, I mean...

Dr. John Delony 34:50 Right?

Chris Williamson 34:50 That's why when we look at, you know, the highest performers in business and, and, uh-

Dr. John Delony 34:54 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 34:56 ... content creation output and the world of sports and all the rest of it, for the most part, what you should look at these people with is pity, not envy.

Dr. John Delony 35:04 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 35:04 You think, "What has happened to this person to cause them to need to do that to themselves?"

Dr. John Delony 35:10 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 35:11 That's not for me to say that all high performers don't have-

Dr. John Delony 35:13 Sure.

Chris Williamson 35:14 Some don't have a good balance of desire for more and running away from past trauma and all the rest of the stuff. Uh, many do, but most don't.

Dr. John Delony 35:21 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 35:22 Most-

Dr. John Delony 35:22 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 35:22 ... are doing it because they need validation from the world because they didn't get it when they were a kid.

Dr. John Delony 35:25 Yeah. I remember watching that ESPN documentary with Michael Jordan, and there's that scene where he's smoking a cigar in the hotel room, and he looks at the camera, and he said, "You don't want this life." And he can't go to the bathroom downstairs. Like, there's just full of people, right?

Chris Williamson 35:39 Mm-hmm.

Dr. John Delony 35:40 And I remember it cuts to a scene of the banners in the rafters, and again, I'm sitting there on my couch in my small, little house, and I just remember looking at all that saying, "For what? Like, for six pieces of cloth? For glory? Like, for what?" Right?

Chris Williamson 35:56 It's a weird realization, though, especially when it comes to high performers, because we assume that if we had what they had, we would feel fulfilled, and the reason that they're not fulfilled is because they're ungrateful, not because the fulfillment is hollow.

Dr. John Delony 36:09 That's exactly right.

Chris Williamson 36:09 The issue is with them, not with the thing that they've been given, the fuel.

Dr. John Delony 36:12 That's right. That's right.

Chris Williamson 36:13 Um, yeah, I think-

Dr. John Delony 36:14 And dude, I'd, I'm doing the same thing. Like, the moment my first book went number one, we were, I was in a meeting two weeks later, it'd be like, "All right, what's the next one?"

Chris Williamson 36:21 Gotta be.

Dr. John Delony 36:21 Right? I, I got right on it, man. And it's, it is... Dude, it just taps in, man. (laughs)

Chris Williamson 36:26 Fucking t- We both do need act. But yeah, I think, um, you know, there's a lot of different insights on the, the dating somebody that's a problem thing. I think the, there's an allure of somebody who doesn't love us back.

Dr. John Delony 36:36 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 36:37 There's an allure of someone-

Dr. John Delony 36:38 But the allure is a question. Why?... "Can I solve this? Can I solve this? Can I solve this?"

Chris Williamson 36:41 Of course.

Dr. John Delony 36:42 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 36:42 Because, uh, y- a lot of us like fixing problems.

Dr. John Delony 36:45 Because we, but, but we also export our value to somebody else.

Chris Williamson 36:49 Oh, yeah.

Dr. John Delony 36:50 Right? And if they, this person doesn't like me, uh, uh, can, can I morph and change and transform so that, that I can become likable?

Chris Williamson 36:57 Uh, if we can convince someone who doesn't seem to like us all the time to care, maybe that means that we're worthy.

Dr. John Delony 37:02 That's right.

Chris Williamson 37:03 Right?

Dr. John Delony 37:03 Yeah. We solved the problem.

Chris Williamson 37:04 Of course. Uh, i- if we can fix them as well, maybe it means that we're fixable-

Dr. John Delony 37:08 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 37:09 ... too. Like, in their mistreatment of us, we see reflected the same level of mistreatment that we give ourselves.

Dr. John Delony 37:16 Right, right, right. (laughs)

Chris Williamson 37:16 Right? We're like, "I actually always did think that I wasn't worthy of love-"

Dr. John Delony 37:21 Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Chris Williamson 37:22 "... and now it's been given to me, and if I can redeem this person externally, maybe it means that I can fix what it is that I've proven to myself internally as well."

Dr. John Delony 37:33 Uh-huh.

Chris Williamson 37:33 I think, uh, you know, the, the weirdest element of this that I was thinking about was variable schedule reward.

Dr. John Delony 37:40 Oh.

Chris Williamson 37:40 So the way that slot machines work.

Dr. John Delony 37:41 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 37:42 And, uh, just that, when you see someone that's in a crazy relationship, turbulent, and it's hot, and it's cold, and it's all the rest of it, and you think, "What the fuck is, like, what are the, both of these people getting from this relationship?" And I get the sense that there's ju- you don't know what you're going to wake up to today.

Dr. John Delony 38:01 Hm.

Chris Williamson 38:02 It's like, if you don't know what you're going to wake up to today, that might be really painful, but there's just a very, very ancient bit of your brain-

Dr. John Delony 38:08 Ka-ching. (laughs)

Chris Williamson 38:08 ... that fucking loves it.

Dr. John Delony 38:09 Ka-ching. Yeah.

Chris Williamson 38:10 Exactly.

Dr. John Delony 38:11 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Chris Williamson 38:11 Dope means a hell of a drug.

Dr. John Delony 38:12 Well, and we've, uh, I actually came to her book through you, uh, Louise Perry's book. She, the-

Chris Williamson 38:20 Phenomenal. She was on again this week.

Dr. John Delony 38:21 Um, there's a, uh, quote in that book that has just bounced around inside my head, it's haunted me, but it's about have we solved for so many existential issues that plague humanity forever-

Chris Williamson 38:31 Mm.

Dr. John Delony 38:32 ... that we're simply, we're bored to death?

Chris Williamson 38:34 Oh, uh, this, this is the exact Maslow's hierarchy of needs thing.

Dr. John Delony 38:37 Yeah. But see, I, uh, but I, I have a, man, I have an unsubstantiated, uh, hypothesis about even that, that Maslow's hierarchy we can talk about.

Chris Williamson 38:45 All right.

Dr. John Delony 38:46 But I think, I think we're, I think we're bored to death. I think our brains are cooking because we've g- got food at the touch of a button, we got water in every room in our house. We've, we've got these problems solved, and then it's got, we need that slot machine, man. And, do, we'll get it from that guy-

Chris Williamson 39:02 You know the-

Dr. John Delony 39:02 ... that made Expekt Menot, Me, Me, Me.

Chris Williamson 39:03 You know the idea of concept creep, where, um, as a, uh, uh, as the, um, incident of something like, let's say, racism becomes less and less over time-

Dr. John Delony 39:14 Mm.

Chris Williamson 39:14 ... the definition of racism expands.

Dr. John Delony 39:15 Expand. Okay. Got you.

Chris Williamson 39:16 So the level of racism stays the same-

Dr. John Delony 39:19 Okay.

Chris Williamson 39:19 ... but what constitutes racism has changed in order to keep the level the same because the actual incidents have r- reduced. In the same way as, uh, I think climate-related deaths have decreased by 50 times. It's like 98% drop in the last 100 years. Let's say something like that. 168,000 people get lifted out of poverty every single day. So we've had to redefine what a climate crisis means. And that's not to say that there isn't a fucking problem with the climate there is.

Dr. John Delony 39:44 Of course. Yeah. Yes.

Chris Williamson 39:45 Um, but yeah, when it comes to, in your life, if you're the sort of person who is used to fixing problems, and you don't have many problems anymore, you'll begin inventing them.

Dr. John Delony 39:57 Oh, yeah, yeah.

Chris Williamson 39:58 You will begin finding them in places where they don't need to be, not because you are a good problem finder, but because you're addicted to solving problems.

Dr. John Delony 40:05 Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And, uh, my identity is found in, "I solve problems, and I will manufacture them, and I will create them, and I will seek them out." And my wife will often, she'll, she'll gently pat the table or pat my leg when I get off into, "And then in Syria, the..." She says, "We're right here."

Chris Williamson 40:21 (laughs)

Dr. John Delony 40:21 "We're in Nashville. We're in Nashville." And it's such a, such a, like, "Okay, yeah, I can solve this one today."

Chris Williamson 40:27 Thank you.

Dr. John Delony 40:28 "I can be nicer to my daughter right now."

Chris Williamson 40:29 Yeah. Uh, I think on the difficult partners thing, if you don't have a full tank of self-love, how dare you deny the love of somebody else even if it's tricky or filled with poisonous ingredients? You know what I mean?

Dr. John Delony 40:48 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 40:48 Like, I have, uh, well, I, I don't think of myself that highly, and this person isn't treating me that highly either-

Dr. John Delony 40:55 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 40:55 ... but they're treating me.

Dr. John Delony 40:56 Yeah. That, and, and it sounds like a cliche thing that I'm, I'm always, nobody's gonna exercise, nobody's going to go through the pain of, of any sort of life change or any sort of relationship change if, at the end of the day, you don't think you're worth the change.

Chris Williamson 41:11 Mm.

Dr. John Delony 41:11 Right? And so it's easy to keep going out and seeking these, uh, these nonsensical lack of reality, like, truths that exist in our world now, because, "I don't even think I'm worth doing the hard work to..." Right? It's, it's-

Chris Williamson 41:24 Mm-hmm.

Dr. John Delony 41:24 ... Dave Ramsey's built an empire on live with less than you make, and it's like, "That's insane," right? It's madness.

Chris Williamson 41:30 Mm-hmm.

Dr. John Delony 41:30 That's just math, dude, right? But we create all these other alternate realities to make ourselves go, "Whew, 'cause I don't even think I'm worth the hard, the hard math."

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Dr. John Delony 42:36 There you go.

Chris Williamson 42:37 And-

Dr. John Delony 42:39 And that's the problem.

Chris Williamson 42:40 Yeah. Because this is why you see people-... who are-

Dr. John Delony 42:45 It's, it's-

Chris Williamson 42:46 ... consistently in the same sorts of relationships.

Dr. John Delony 42:48 It's intellectual cutting, yeah. It's intellectual self-harm.

Chris Williamson 42:52 Oh, right, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Dr. John Delony 42:53 Like, I'm not worth it. Yeah. I've gotta...

Chris Williamson 42:56 Whip myself into submission.

Dr. John Delony 42:58 Yeah. I wanna ask you, can I... Can we pontificate?

Chris Williamson 43:01 Fire away.

Dr. John Delony 43:03 I've been wrestling with Maslow's hierarchy. Once you get above physiology and love, I don't know that this idea of esteem and self-actualization can co-exist on top of these things. I think they are interwoven.

Chris Williamson 43:20 Okay.

Dr. John Delony 43:21 And I think that we may have, um, given ourself an illusion that you, you, you become actualized as you're choosing to love every day-

Chris Williamson 43:31 Hmm.

Dr. John Delony 43:31 ... despite hard things and how to forgive, and you find esteem by consistently being part of safety and consistently being part of a community and coming back in when you get separated.

Chris Williamson 43:41 Mm-hmm.

Dr. John Delony 43:41 And this idea that they're separate and somehow, they're... We're all gonna become this little lighthouse on a hill, I just don't think that... I think we're at the end of self-actualization, this, this notion-

Chris Williamson 43:51 Okay.

Dr. John Delony 43:51 ... that we can somehow be s- be, all be little lighthouses on a hill. I don't think that's how we're wired and designed.

Chris Williamson 43:56 I certainly think it's more difficult in the modern world, because let's face it, the safety needs, the basic needs, the survival needs, like, you know, th- they're, they're looked after. You don't have to do anything for them.

Dr. John Delony 44:08 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 44:09 So, all of those needs now... Uh, uh, for instance, good example, um, you're not going to starve. Pr- most people listening to this-

Dr. John Delony 44:15 Sure, sure.

Chris Williamson 44:16 ... podcast, I would like to think, aren't going to starve. Um, but that doesn't mean that someone is going to cook a meal and put it on your dinner table.

Dr. John Delony 44:23 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 44:23 Right? So there's a difference between having food in the house so that the people around you don't starve-

Dr. John Delony 44:28 Yep.

Chris Williamson 44:28 ... and serving them through something which they still need, right?

Dr. John Delony 44:32 Exactly, yes, yes.

Chris Williamson 44:33 Is that what you're talking... Sort of a relationship between the two?

Dr. John Delony 44:36 Well, I think implied, especially in the modern world is, um... And again, I, I don't know what Maslow was thinking, but there's absent participation in these bottom rungs.

Chris Williamson 44:47 Hmm.

Dr. John Delony 44:47 There's an expectation that they're gonna exist for us so that I can get to the, the more important stuff of sitting in a room and thinking about how great I am.

Chris Williamson 44:54 Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Dr. John Delony 44:54 Or painting-

Chris Williamson 44:54 Whole Foods-

Dr. John Delony 44:55 ... painting a p-

Chris Williamson 44:55 Whole Foods has got that sorted. The police have got safety sorted.

Dr. John Delony 44:58 Y- yeah, yeah. So, so, the world owes me these things. The world owes me love, the world owes me these things so that I can get to the more important stuff, which is on top. And I think that's false. I think the more important stuff, I will find out, I'll become actualized through a constant lifetime of love.

Chris Williamson 45:15 Well, there's definitely an element that anyone going through an existential crisis, anyone asking themselves, "Am I really enacting my logos forward? Is this my highest contribution to the world?"

Dr. John Delony 45:26 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 45:27 ... is in a position of ultimate luxury.

Dr. John Delony 45:30 That's it. That's it.

Chris Williamson 45:31 Because the only chance that you have to ask yourself that question...

Dr. John Delony 45:35 But it diminishes the, the mom who, day in and day out and day in and day out and day in and day out... That's self-actualization.

Chris Williamson 45:40 Dude, I wanna make moms great again.

Dr. John Delony 45:42 The d- (laughs)

Chris Williamson 45:42 I-

Dr. John Delony 45:43 Or, or the dad who, dude, doesn't do the job that we do. The, he goes up and down 5th and 6th Street collecting trash day after day after day, year after year after year. You don't do that and then hopefully you can get some self-actualization on the side.

Chris Williamson 45:56 Mm-hmm.

Dr. John Delony 45:57 You're gonna look back and say, "This city operated because I was a part of it." That's self-actualization, right? It's not this, this place you go to, this destination that you're removed from-

Chris Williamson 46:07 Hmm.

Dr. John Delony 46:07 ... these other things. They're, they're tightly integrated.

Chris Williamson 46:10 Yeah, that's interesting. Uh, you know,

Chris Williamson 46:12 I mean, how many people do you know that have reached some degree of success... Uh, two people that I think of, uh, Tucker Max and Ryan Holiday, both of whom live in opposite directions out here from Austin. Uh, two people who, big businesses, very successful, authors, well-known, renowned, money, opportunities, blah, blah, blah, essentially retired to do the thing that they used to do full-time, part-time, and to hammer fence posts in full-time.

Dr. John Delony 46:35 Huh.

Chris Williamson 46:36 Like, you know, they're ranching and wrangling-

Dr. John Delony 46:38 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 46:38 ... and fucking hoeing the ground and fixing fence posts, and the sheeps got stuck and blah, blah, blah.

Dr. John Delony 46:43 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 46:43 Well, why? It's because chopping wood and carrying water actually gives you a sense of satisfaction that it's hard to find elsewhere. But I gotta... I, I've been thinking an awful lot about where people take joy and satisfaction from in their work.

Dr. John Delony 46:57 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 46:57 And for people who maybe have a little bit of agency or self-determination to the sort of work that they do-

Dr. John Delony 47:04 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 47:05 ... doesn't necessarily need to be a business owner, but they can maybe contribute to how the teams are put together, maybe part of a small business or a startup, or maybe they are a, you know, independent contractor or something like that. And, um, I've been thinking a lot about bands and the way that bands, um, they have to work very hard, but it's a very enjoyable, uh, career. And performing and concerts rank as some of the highest happiness-

Dr. John Delony 47:28 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 47:28 ... pursuits that you can do. Like, huge, huge, huge studies that look at, um, anything that's collective effervescence, especially if you're performing, but also if you're experiencing. And you have to presume that if you're performing, you also get the benefit of experiencing-

Dr. John Delony 47:39 Yeah, of course.

Chris Williamson 47:39 ... at the same time. And, um, I was thinking, like, "Okay, so what is it that they're doing that's keeping them going when they're, you know, 50 dates deep into this big long tour and they're in fucking Japan and they're sleep-deprived and blah, blah, blah?"

Dr. John Delony 47:51 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 47:51 And I think a big part of it is having other people to share the successes with.

Dr. John Delony 47:56 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 47:56 To be able to... And I don't just mean like coming home to your wife and her going, "No, thank... Good for you, honey," or whatever it might be. But, a good thing happens and you have someone that you can go, "Ah, that's fucking sick."

Dr. John Delony 48:07 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 48:07 You know what I mean?

Dr. John Delony 48:08 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 48:08 Like, and it wasn't your wife in that moment, but it was your manager.

Dr. John Delony 48:11 That's right.

Chris Williamson 48:12 Right? You-

Dr. John Delony 48:12 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 48:12 ... on the phone to your manager, your manager's there-

Dr. John Delony 48:14 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 48:15 ... screaming down the phone because you're both on a journey together.

Dr. John Delony 48:17 That's right.

Chris Williamson 48:18 If you'd done your own bookings, who would you have screamed to?

Dr. John Delony 48:20 Yeah, I would've pumped my fist and been like, "Cool." And-

Chris Williamson 48:23 And forgotten about it.

Dr. John Delony 48:24 Right. (laughs)

Chris Williamson 48:24 You've got this memory.

Dr. John Delony 48:25 That's right.

Chris Williamson 48:25 You wouldn't have remembered it if it was on your own.

Dr. John Delony 48:27 That's right.

Chris Williamson 48:27 You wouldn't have remembered it.

Dr. John Delony 48:28 Yeah. And then having my wife walk up at one of those events, she surprised me, walked up with a microphone and said, "I'm so proud of you. I'll remember that till the day I die." Right? "I'll remember that till the day I die." Yeah, 'cause it meant something. It was a shared experience. And kinda like stand-up comedy, I've become obsessed for the last few years, man. Just obsessed. I live around the corner from a club in Nashville and I...... kind of go too much. I love it.

Chris Williamson 48:48 Mm-hmm.

Dr. John Delony 48:48 But that and music, it's got a pretty tight feedback loop to it.

Chris Williamson 48:51 Exact- well, I mean, you have immediate response from the audience. Y- you, you-

Dr. John Delony 48:54 It's, it's one of the last bastions of human connection, right?

Chris Williamson 48:56 You, uh, you play a good note, they make a noise. You tell a good joke, they make a noise.

Dr. John Delony 49:00 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 49:00 It's very quick. So yeah, I think, uh, just one thing that's come to me, although the internet and remote working have afforded everybody the opportunity to step back and to, you know, "I can work from anywhere, man." You know, "I can be on the top of a mountain. I can determine my own working schedule. I don't need anybody else. I just need a laptop and an internet connection, I'm good." That's great, but it's siloed you off from being able to do the thing that you actually wanted to do, which was enjoy the fucking process of doing the work.

Dr. John Delony 49:28 That's it. That's it.

Chris Williamson 49:29 I mean, look, some people-

Dr. John Delony 49:30 That-

Chris Williamson 49:30 ... are just looking to earn in pounds and spend in pesos, and they have whatever, like, uh, fulfillment that occurs outside of their job. Fine. But if you want to get some fulfillment from your job, I don't think that you can solo sigma male Lone Ranger wantrepreneur it-

Dr. John Delony 49:47 No.

Chris Williamson 49:47 ... in fucking Bali.

Dr. John Delony 49:48 No.

Chris Williamson 49:49 Because who, when you nail this next client on a sales call for, like, the biggest deal you've ever, "Oh my God, like, Hewlett-Packard are gonna use our software," dude, you just made 20 grand.

Dr. John Delony 50:00 Right.

Chris Williamson 50:00 You just made 20 grand. "Oh, it's just me that made 20 grand. Who am I gonna celebrate with?" And I'm fired up kind of, but I'm not that fired up because the whole, the whole reason that you want to win something is so that you can go, "Ah" with other people.

Dr. John Delony 50:14 That's The Wolf of Wall Street. It, uh, DiCaprio's character, it looks like he's, he's addicted to the deal. I don't think he was. I think he was addicted to the room cheering.

Chris Williamson 50:23 Yeah.

Dr. John Delony 50:23 You know what I mean?

Chris Williamson 50:23 Yes.

Dr. John Delony 50:23 To that, to that celebration.

Chris Williamson 50:26 Mm-hmm.

Dr. John Delony 50:26 And the deal gets you that, right?

Chris Williamson 50:28 Yes. Yes. So that becomes the proxy. And all the money is, is just the number that you get to, like, shout in the air with everybody else.

Dr. John Delony 50:35 That's it. That's it. And the awe and the, "Oh my gosh, how'd you do that?" It's amazing.

Chris Williamson 50:38 So a g- a perfect example of this. I'm gonna go and do, uh, it looks like... This is the first time I'm talking about it. I'm gonna go and do a tour around America and Canada, uh-

Dr. John Delony 50:45 Outstanding.

Chris Williamson 50:46 ... later this year.

Dr. John Delony 50:47 Come to Nashville, please.

Chris Williamson 50:48 It's booked.

Dr. John Delony 50:49 A- Is it?

Chris Williamson 50:49 Oh, yeah.

Dr. John Delony 50:50 Outstanding.

Chris Williamson 50:50 Uh, so as a part of that, I'm gonna get to... I, I don't need a warmup, right? It's two hours of me talking on stage. I'm gonna take a warmup.

Dr. John Delony 51:02 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 51:02 Because I want someone to finish the show with and fucking high five. And it might be Zach, my ex-housemate who plays guitar. It might be James Smith from Australia. It might be somebody I might get, you know, guests come and do warmup, but I want someone there with me so that I don't go back to the hotel on my own and think about how good or how bad it was.

Dr. John Delony 51:19 Bro. (laughs)

Chris Williamson 51:20 You know what I mean?

Dr. John Delony 51:21 Dude.

Chris Williamson 51:21 Like, I've got friends who are DJs, dude. I've got friend- DJing looks from the outside like the most dialed life in the world. Let me tell you, it is on the come up before you've got your tour manager with you, before you've got an opener with you, before you've got, like, a structure around you. It's kind of a bit like hell.

Dr. John Delony 51:38 Uh-huh.

Chris Williamson 51:39 You're playing until 3:00 in the morning, if you've got back-to-back gigs. I have a friend who did, played a gig on a Monday in Argentina, Buenos Aires something, and the next time he got to sleep in a bed was Saturday. So it's Monday to Saturday, and he played four gigs over five time zones, or whatever it was, and, uh, he ended up basically having like a small psychotic break.

Dr. John Delony 52:01 Mm.

Chris Williamson 52:01 Talked about it on the podcast years ago now, and, uh, he had de- s- he f- he came to in a supermarket, sat on the floor, and he had laid around him one of every different type of hair product. He'd been scooping it up and putting it on his head-

Dr. John Delony 52:14 (laughs) Wow.

Chris Williamson 52:14 ... 'cause he realized his hair was shit.

Dr. John Delony 52:16 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Chris Williamson 52:16 Grabbed a floret of broccoli, 48 dishwasher tablets, and walked out. And you, like, he had a full-

Dr. John Delony 52:20 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 52:21 ... like, you know, part, part psychotic break.

Dr. John Delony 52:22 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 52:22 You think, "Huh, that doesn't sound fun," but from the outside, it's, "Oh my God, he's living his dream. He gets to play his music around the world." Like-

Dr. John Delony 52:29 Uh-huh.

Chris Williamson 52:30 ... careful what you wish for.

Dr. John Delony 52:31 Comes at a cost, man. Yeah.

Chris Williamson 52:32 Especially on your own.

Dr. John Delony 52:33 Yeah. There's always, there's always a trade. There's always a trade.

Chris Williamson 52:35 Um, talking about, I guess, the next step. People get into relationships with those that they feel like they need to fix.

Dr. John Delony 52:43 Mm.

Chris Williamson 52:44 Why do people stay in relationships even if they're not being fulfilled?

Dr. John Delony 52:51 Hmm. Talk to me about fulfillment, and I think sometimes that's the model you have. I think sometimes I'm not worth my needs being fulfilled. Sometimes I don't even know what that would feel like if my needs were fulfilled. And so, kind of what you talked about earlier, I'm just gonna keep expanding what my needs need to be because my need is actually seeing you, how high you can jump, and it just keeps expanding, expanding. But I think for most of us, we don't have a model of what it looks like. Our moms and dads, if you look at the demographics across, like, there was only one parent in the house, or they were co-managers of the house, didn't even like each other, right?

Chris Williamson 53:27 Mm-hmm.

Dr. John Delony 53:27 And I've got no picture of what someone who actually loves me and is connected with me and quote unquote needs. Uh, and by the way, I've been struggling lately, and love to get your thoughts on this. I've been struggling with the idea of needs.

Chris Williamson 53:40 Mm.

Dr. John Delony 53:40 Uh, 'cause I think needs have turned modern relationships into a very parasitic relationship.

Chris Williamson 53:47 Mm.

Dr. John Delony 53:47 And I think beneath that, a more vulnerable, scary question to ask is what I want. And I think it's easy if I lob a need grenade at you-

Chris Williamson 53:55 Mm-hmm.

Dr. John Delony 53:56 ... "I need you to do these things, this, this, this, this, and this," versus, "Man, I really want you to X, Y, and Z." 'Cause one of those, I kind of take out the, "I need this, and if you don't do this, then, then you're not performing."

Chris Williamson 54:08 Mm-hmm.

Dr. John Delony 54:09 Or, "I really want you. Do you want me too? Do you see me?"

Chris Williamson 54:12 Oh, that's lovely.

Dr. John Delony 54:13 And so I think most of us are so terrified at asking the want question of ourselves and of our partner-

Chris Williamson 54:19 Mm-hmm.

Dr. John Delony 54:19 ... that we cast it all as needs.

Chris Williamson 54:21 Right. Because the want can be denied.

Dr. John Delony 54:23 That's right.

Chris Williamson 54:24 But the need can't, or the want-

Dr. John Delony 54:26 Most-

Chris Williamson 54:26 ... should i- g- could be denied, but the need should not.

Dr. John Delony 54:28 If you deny my needs, you're an ass.

Chris Williamson 54:30 Mm-hmm.

Dr. John Delony 54:31 If you deny my wants-

Chris Williamson 54:32 'Cause you might not want them.

Dr. John Delony 54:34 ... that's different. Uh, the, one of the most common questions I get from married men is, "I just want her... I j- I just want more sex," right? "I want more sex. I want better sex," et cetera. But they come at it with, "I need more sex." But if you need something, then it goes on the chore list along with the diapers and the this, and I gotta clean the kitchen-

Chris Williamson 54:51 Which is unbelievably sexy.

Dr. John Delony 54:52 ... and I'll get you off, and then I'm gonna go, I'm gonna go to bed, right?

Chris Williamson 54:55 Yeah.

Dr. John Delony 54:56 A way more terrifying question for a modern male is, to a wife with two kids and it's exhausting and you're both working full time, "I want you. Do you want me?"

Chris Williamson 55:05 Mm-hmm.

Dr. John Delony 55:05 And if, if you don't, we need to have that conversation. What would, what would desire look like? That's a scarier conversation, man. And there are basic needs, so I don't wanna throw out the baby with the bath water.

Chris Williamson 55:15 Of course.

Dr. John Delony 55:15 But I think most of this comes down to wants. And that's terrifying.

Chris Williamson 55:19 That's an awesome reframe.

Dr. John Delony 55:21 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 55:21 That's really good.

Dr. John Delony 55:24 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 55:24 Yeah, I think in the process of defining our wants and risking the potential for somebody to be unprepared to fulfill them for us-

Dr. John Delony 55:34 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 55:37 ... uh, we feel less than.

Dr. John Delony 55:38 Yeah. Or, um, we don't have the psychology for being wrong. I think you've talked about this on another show that I listen to, um, before I, I went to college, I went to this very well-meaning Texas church camp, and they took us 18-year-old guys in a room and they were like, "The world's gonna destroy you, so write down right now what your non-negotiables for your life partner will be."

Chris Williamson 56:03 Mm-hmm.

Dr. John Delony 56:04 "Write them down right now, 'cause they're gonna get watered down and the edges rubbed off. It's gonna be bad."

Chris Williamson 56:08 Oh, okay, so you were sort of at this purist-

Dr. John Delony 56:11 Yeah. Before the world soils you-

Chris Williamson 56:13 Right, okay.

Dr. John Delony 56:13 ... write down your-

Chris Williamson 56:14 This is actually what you're really gonna want.

Dr. John Delony 56:15 ... your, your 10 non-negotiables.

Chris Williamson 56:16 Okay, yeah.

Dr. John Delony 56:17 I'm 26 years with the same person, the same woman, and I think she had two of the 10, and one of them was be a pretty girl, right? Like, be a beautiful woman. And so it's, what, when I say I want something, so often my manager's, that's his job is to be like, "You don't want that." Like, "I really want this." "You don't want that." Right? And we don't have the psychology for being wrong. We just are so led around the nose by our feelings. I feel, I feel, I feel, I feel.

Chris Williamson 56:44 Mm.

Dr. John Delony 56:44 And man, I can get what I want when I cast it in, you know, the form of a need.

Chris Williamson 56:48 Hmm.

Dr. John Delony 56:48 And you have to meet it.

Chris Williamson 56:49 That's fascinating. And I suppose as well, you know, it goes back to, what do you think you deserve? And if...

Dr. John Delony 56:58 We don't have a, we don't have, we don't have a... Man, if you had to fight and scratch and claw and sing and dance in a third grade math class to get your mom to look you in the eye-

Chris Williamson 57:08 Mm-hmm.

Dr. John Delony 57:09 ... you don't think you're worthy of a want. You know what I mean? If you had to sing and dance on a soccer field for your dad to pat you on the back, no eye contact, of course, but just pat you on the back-

Chris Williamson 57:18 Mm-hmm.

Dr. John Delony 57:19 ... you don't think you, you, you don't, you're not worthy of wanting anything. Everything has to be a need.

Chris Williamson 57:25 Well, also, what was the model of, uh, needs and wants and desires being requested and fulfilled in the household? Because, you know, a lot of the generation that are growing up now and are asking themselves these questions, their parents, they didn't have that sort of communication education.

Dr. John Delony 57:42 No.

Chris Williamson 57:42 You know, there wasn't-

Dr. John Delony 57:43 Definitely.

Chris Williamson 57:43 ... podcasts and fucking Arthur Brooks-

Dr. John Delony 57:44 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 57:44 ... and all of this stuff, you know-

Dr. John Delony 57:45 Right, right, right.

Chris Williamson 57:45 ... to help everybody through. So you go, "Okay, well, what was the model of how to communicate the things... Well, what about, like, passive aggression?"

Dr. John Delony 57:54 That's it.

Chris Williamson 57:55 "What about shadow sentences? What about not requesting what you need and then be- getting bitter about the fact that you never got it?"

Dr. John Delony 58:01 Yeah, we, we, what, we, we were cast in movies that we didn't even know we were in, and we got in trouble for not knowing the lines, right?

Chris Williamson 58:06 Right.

Dr. John Delony 58:06 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 58:07 Yeah, you didn't attend-

Dr. John Delony 58:08 Constant.

Chris Williamson 58:08 ... a party you weren't invited to.

Dr. John Delony 58:09 (laughs) Right.

Chris Williamson 58:09 Yes.

Dr. John Delony 58:10 Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then how dare you not, not show up.

Chris Williamson 58:12 Yup.

Dr. John Delony 58:13 Right? Yeah.

Chris Williamson 58:13 Yup. And you don't know. Um, so yeah, I think... the sense of what, what are you worth? What are you worth? What, what, what should you get out of this, and do you even know what it is that you're asking for?

Dr. John Delony 58:26 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 58:26 Like, have you got, uh, an idea of it? Um, and

Chris Williamson 58:30 I guess, okay, moving one step forward from this, if somebody feels convinced that they should leave a relationship but they're struggling to accumulate the bravery to be able to sort of pull the pin, maybe they've got close a few times and they've bailed out, uh, what would you say to sort of motivate that person who deep down knows that it's the right thing to do, but-

Dr. John Delony 58:55 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 58:55 ... as of yet, just the courage kind of hasn't come to them?

Dr. John Delony 58:59 Yeah, that's a great question. I think, uh, I think there's a practical aspect to this, and then I think there's a relational aspect to this. If, um... there's a very real, um, the data's pretty clear that, you know, more women file for divorce, but women's net worth often plummets, right? And so there's a very real economic consequence. So if you're married to somebody, if you're living with somebody and you go, "I gotta get out of this thing," there's a very real math problem you have to solve. And that's un- fortunate and that's scary, and the social services are pretty tough. But there's a very real question.

Chris Williamson 59:31 I suppose the, the equivalent would be the same for men, but in reverse, paying alimony and blah, blah.

Dr. John Delony 59:34 That's, that's exactly right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, and so I think there's a, there's a math problem there. Not to say stay together for the math, right? That's, I haven't heard, I haven't seen that bumper sticker. But, um, there's a very real reality to this. The other side of it is, I know for most of us, when emotions are a sign, especially strong emotions, are a sign that your body's trying to protect you. And when your body's trying to protect you, you're not thinking. And so, for me it's been very important to have a couple of men in my life that I outsource some of these things to. "I'm gonna sit down with you, make sure I'm seeing this thing clearly."

Chris Williamson 1:00:04 Mm.

Dr. John Delony 1:00:04 "'Cause here's what I'm feeling." And it's been more than once in my life when I sit down with a few of my old 30-year-plus ride or die buddies and I'm like, "She's doing this and this and this," and they're like, "Have you looked in a mirror, man?" And they're able to see something, right? No, no warrior goes into battle without eyes in the sky. And so I think, um, I often, or in our, in our lone ranger cowboy world we live in, man, it's, you gotta know all this b- all do this by yourself.

Chris Williamson 1:00:31 Mm.

Dr. John Delony 1:00:31 And so, I'm constantly telling people, "Dude, go get a cup of coffee with somebody and just exhale."

Chris Williamson 1:00:35 Mm.

Dr. John Delony 1:00:35 And then tell them what's going on. And they may say, "Hey," there's a common thing on my show, someone will call and be like, "My sex life is screwed up, we have, only had sex twice last year, it's a disaster, it's falling apart," and then 10 minutes into the conversation it's like, "Well, we have a five-year-old, a three-year-old, a one-year-old, and she's pregnant." I'm like, "Bro, hang up the phone and call me back."

Chris Williamson 1:00:52 (laughs)

Dr. John Delony 1:00:52 Like, you'll all- you'll have survival sex. Y'all are figuring this thing out. Like, you're not broken, it's okay, right?

Chris Williamson 1:00:59 Mm-hmm.

Dr. John Delony 1:00:59 Um, but that's just, you just need somebody to sit with you. Um, but when it comes to courage and bravery, I think at some point we have to head into the discomfort. I mean, that's all the, that's all Jud Brewer stuff on anxiety, right? You gotta head into it-

Chris Williamson 1:01:10 Mm.

Dr. John Delony 1:01:10 ... the thing that you're scared about and anxious about.

Chris Williamson 1:01:12 We'll get back to talking to John in just one minute, but first, I need to tell you about Function. Staying on top of your health requires more than just an annual physical, which is why I partnered with Function. They run lab tests twice a year that track over a hundred biomarkers and monitor for early signs of thousands of diseases. They even screen for 50 types of cancer at stage one, which is five times more than you get from an annual physical. You receive insights from a team of expert physicians who provide detailed written clinician summaries of their observations and phone consultations for any critical findings. Getting these lab tests done would usually cost thousands, but with Function it's only $500. And right now, you can get the exact same blood panels that I get and bypass their wait list by going to the link in the description below or heading to functionhealth.com/modernwisdom. That's functionhealth.com/modernwisdom. Yeah, I think, um, some of the questions I've- I've asked friends about when they've been on the fence, unsure, scared about being alone, about losing this attachment, you know, one of the things is, how much of your life is thinking about this breakup taking up?

Dr. John Delony 1:02:20 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:02:20 Like, what other productive or peaceful or mindful thoughts is this taking the space of?

Dr. John Delony 1:02:27 Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:02:27 How often are you not present at dinner or not present at work or, you know, trying to meditate or train in the gym or do any of the things that usually bring you joy and you're not thinking about where you are? And, uh-

Dr. John Delony 1:02:42 That's one of my- When someone says, "Hey, should I break up with them? I'm thinking about this, this," I always say, "Absolutely, you should break up with them," and I just watch. And if their- if their shoulders drop, if their face drops-

Chris Williamson 1:02:53 Mm-hmm.

Dr. John Delony 1:02:53 ...that may be the right move.

Chris Williamson 1:02:54 Yeah.

Dr. John Delony 1:02:55 And if they tense up-

Chris Williamson 1:02:56 Because they've got a sense of relief.

Dr. John Delony 1:02:56 ...like, "No, no, no," yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:02:58 They've got a sense of relief-

Dr. John Delony 1:02:59 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:02:59 ...from- from that being on the other side.

Dr. John Delony 1:03:00 Yes, sir.

Chris Williamson 1:03:00 They're just asking you for permission.

Dr. John Delony 1:03:02 That's right.

Chris Williamson 1:03:02 They're just asking you for permission. There's this great, uh, you know Rick Hanson? He wrote Hardwiring Happiness? Dude, unreal.

Dr. John Delony 1:03:09 Mm-hmm. Okay.

Chris Williamson 1:03:09 Imagines CBT meets, uh, Dharma wisdom-

Dr. John Delony 1:03:14 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 1:03:14 ...meets mindfulness, meets neuroscience. It's, uh-

Dr. John Delony 1:03:17 What was the name?

Chris Williamson 1:03:17 Hardwiring Happiness by Rick Hanson. He's got a phenomenal, phenomenal, uh, podcast with his son, Forrest Hanson. I think it's called Being Well and, um, he dropped this quote that said, uh, "Wisdom is choosing a greater happiness over a lesser happiness." And I think, you know, a lot of the time, we assume that change is only ever going to make things worse, even though when we look back, almost all changes have made things better.

Dr. John Delony 1:03:46 But we don't fear change, we fear loss.

Chris Williamson 1:03:49 True, yeah. But that's uncertainty.

Dr. John Delony 1:03:51 That's- that's true.

Chris Williamson 1:03:51 We don't necessarily feel loss, we fear uncertainty.

Dr. John Delony 1:03:53 That's right, yeah, yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:03:53 Right? Because losing an abusive partner isn't- you're not fearing that, you're fearing the uncertainty of what it would be like to be without them. You know, we have two needs as humans. We have an exploration need and we have a security need.

Dr. John Delony 1:04:04 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:04:05 Right? That's all-

Dr. John Delony 1:04:05 And they're in tension, right.

Chris Williamson 1:04:06 Correct. They're always-

Dr. John Delony 1:04:07 Novelty and... Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:04:08 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Uh, uh, novelty, safety.

Dr. John Delony 1:04:10 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:04:11 You need to go out and get some berries, you need to go to a new bush because this one's empty, but also there's a risk of going there 'cause there might be a lion behind it and it might kill you. Um, I think one of the things that's really useful is to try and have faith that you are the sort of person who can handle change well.

Dr. John Delony 1:04:28 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:04:28 Like, just to think about that as an ideal, like, it makes a world inside of your mind where you don't need to fear things adjusting, because change has happened in the past and you seemed to deal with it quite well then.

Dr. John Delony 1:04:43 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:04:44 Change is going to happen in the future, you're probably gonna deal with that.

Dr. John Delony 1:04:46 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:04:46 So, why not this one? Like, why not back yourself to be able to be the sort of person who can deal with change well?

Dr. John Delony 1:04:52 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:04:52 Like, you've got this, you're flexible, and you're okay in different situations, and yeah, I... You know, unfortunately, a lot of the people who have the opportunity to choose partners to- to, um, not just have to settle for the first thing that happens to, you know, have different life opportunities, to move away from the town, they are probably quite hard workers.

Dr. John Delony 1:05:15 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:05:15 And the problem with being a hard worker is that you have to have a pain tolerance, and if your pain tolerance is quite high, that means that your pain tolerance for emotional deprivation is quite high-

Dr. John Delony 1:05:24 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:05:24 ...which means that you'll stick about in a relationship that isn't serving you for a very, very long time.

Dr. John Delony 1:05:28 Oh, just keep going and going and going and going.

Chris Williamson 1:05:30 Mm-hmm.

Dr. John Delony 1:05:30 'Cause that's what we do.

Chris Williamson 1:05:31 Yeah, you're used to putting your nose against the grindstone and things being tough-

Dr. John Delony 1:05:35 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:05:35 ...and coming out the other side and going, "I wasn't that happy, but fuck, I got through it."

Dr. John Delony 1:05:40 Yeah, I got through it.

Chris Williamson 1:05:40 Because the- you- in the past, in other areas of life, in the gym or in diet or in building your meditation habit or in business or in skill acquisition, you have learned to associate delayed gratification. You're basically marshmallow testing your way through-

Dr. John Delony 1:05:56 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 1:05:56 ...through life, right?

Dr. John Delony 1:05:57 Right, right, right.

Chris Williamson 1:05:57 Over and over again. And you go, "Well, look, there's certain things that you just kind of need to embrace the suck."

Dr. John Delony 1:06:03 Yes.

Chris Williamson 1:06:03 And on the other side of which there will be, maybe not happiness, but meaning and fulfillment and wellbeing, and perhaps downstream from that you get some, like, fun and enjoyment and happiness and blah, blah. But probably not in your relationship, right? I don't think anybody's going to congratulate you on your deathbed for saying, "He suffered in silence."

Dr. John Delony 1:06:20 Hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:06:21 You know what I mean?

Dr. John Delony 1:06:22 Yeah, except that I don't know that... I mean, it takes two to tango, right? But I think that meek- makes suffering the- the inevitable outcome. And I- I remember when my wife and I were sitting across the table, uh, like, the message I sent to her, 'cause we weren't speaking, was, "No- no- no crying, no fighting, no screaming," and this was self-directed, I'm the emotional one, um, "We gotta- we gotta st- say are we still doing this? This is it." Like, 'cause the marriage we've had up till now is over, like, "Are we gonna keep doing this?" And, but I remember that conversation when we both came to the realization we have both mutually chosen a miserable marriage.

Chris Williamson 1:07:04 Mm-hmm.

Dr. John Delony 1:07:05 And the beauty is, we can choose a not miserable one. And I think that agency of choice has been taken away by a culture of disempowerment, so I think the idea of, like, it's either bail or suffer in silence, I think that's a- that is-... I don't think it's that binary.

Chris Williamson 1:07:23 Mm.

Dr. John Delony 1:07:23 I think you can also-

Chris Williamson 1:07:24 Like-

Dr. John Delony 1:07:24 ... both be like, "Dude, we chose suck. And I chose... I, I did something," whoever you may be, "I, I stepped out on the marriage. I, I gambled a bunch of money away." Like, "I did an extra bad thing," if you wanna-

Chris Williamson 1:07:35 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Dr. John Delony 1:07:35 ... frame it like that. We can both choose something different. And that to me is a, uh, it's not on the table anymore. But if you look past, the same thing happens relationally. Those who stick it out and they choose something different, choose something magnanimous, um, which is very un-Romeo and Juliet, right? You're supposed to just be star-crossed lovers.

Chris Williamson 1:07:55 Mm-hmm.

Dr. John Delony 1:07:55 It's stupid, it's nonsense. You choose it and you keep choosing it and you keep choosing it. Man, you see people who've been through hell and they're on the other side. That's the goofy guys that have real short shorts on and-

Chris Williamson 1:08:05 Mm.

Dr. John Delony 1:08:05 ... no business wearing that short of shorts at the beach, and they don't care, right?

Chris Williamson 1:08:09 Mm-hmm. Same.

Dr. John Delony 1:08:10 'Cause that, 'cause she loves them.

Chris Williamson 1:08:11 Yeah.

Dr. John Delony 1:08:11 Right? Right? And it's, it's a different kind of, it's a, it's a different kind of depth to that love.

Chris Williamson 1:08:16 I've heard you say before about how the time, I think this was your conversation with Arthur Brooks-

Dr. John Delony 1:08:22 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:08:23 ... uh, the time when you want to pull away the most is the time when you're supposed to lean in.

Dr. John Delony 1:08:27 Hey, I did it last night with my daughter. She, nine years old, man. Phew. She's got a supernatural ability. She knows where every single hidden button, buttons I didn't even know I had, she just knows. Gadoosh. And she's screaming and hollering and yelling, and tho- doing her nine-year-old stuff, and started to walk away, and I literally went downstairs to head out the door with the dog to go for a walk, and I stopped. This is that moment. That's when Arthur Brooks is ringing in my head, and you turn around, you walk back in-

Chris Williamson 1:08:59 Dammit, Arther.

Dr. John Delony 1:08:59 ... and I went and climbed into bed with her, and my wife's reading a book, and I just climbed. She shoves me outta the way, I move. And, whew, and then within 30 seconds, you hear her breathing different, and then she reaches over and grabs your hand, and that's what dads do. Emotionally immature children run off. Dads go right through it.

Chris Williamson 1:09:18 Like, yeah, you had a child on child war-

Dr. John Delony 1:09:21 That's it.

Chris Williamson 1:09:21 ... about to begin.

Dr. John Delony 1:09:22 That's, uh, it, it's my inner seven-year-old.

Chris Williamson 1:09:24 Your, in a nine-year-old. (laughs)

Dr. John Delony 1:09:25 That's it, bro. That's right.

Chris Williamson 1:09:26 Dude.

Dr. John Delony 1:09:27 What was it? Who... Uh, it may have been, it may have been Sal DiStefano that I called recently and was like, "Hey, I'm in- having a disagreement with my 14-year-old," and he just started dying laughing. He goes, "I was gonna stop you right there."

Chris Williamson 1:09:38 (laughs)

Dr. John Delony 1:09:38 And I was like, "What am I, what am I doing?" And I was like, "I'll call you." No, it was Lane Norton, I called