How To Break Free From Your Old Story - Dr John Delony

1. 0:00 – 8:47

   Different Levels Of Compassion

   1. CWChris Williamson0:00

      Dr. John Delony, welcome to the show.

   2. JDDr. John Delony0:01

      My man, Chris.

   3. CWChris Williamson0:02

      How are you?

   4. JDDr. John Delony0:02

      Thanks for the... Uh, dude, I'm fantastic. I love being back in Texas where I was born and raised, man. It's good. Are you adjusting?

   5. CWChris Williamson0:09

      I am slowly becoming native. Someone told me that I was allowed to use the word y'all because I've been here for three years now.

   6. JDDr. John Delony0:15

      That's a huge, uh, that's a huge welcome mat.

   7. CWChris Williamson0:18

      I get the sense-

   8. JDDr. John Delony0:19

      That's big, man.

   9. CWChris Williamson0:20

      I get the sense that it is me being conned into saying the equivalent of the N-word-

   10. JDDr. John Delony0:25

       (laughs)

   11. CWChris Williamson0:25

       ... for Texan people. And the Texas Tribune is gonna catch me hard R-ing my way through-

   12. JDDr. John Delony0:30

       (laughs)

   13. CWChris Williamson0:30

       ... y'all a couple of times. So I'm not falling for the, the psyop. Um, I, I can't, I can't quite get to that. I'm up to sidewalk and, and, and trash can, but y'all, not yet.

   14. JDDr. John Delony0:40

       And so what's the, what's the alternative to trash can?

   15. CWChris Williamson0:43

       Rubbish.

   16. JDDr. John Delony0:43

       Oh.

   17. CWChris Williamson0:44

       Rubbish bin.

   18. JDDr. John Delony0:44

       Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

   19. CWChris Williamson0:45

       Uh, pavement.

   20. JDDr. John Delony0:45

       You gotta be careful with rubbish bin here.

   21. CWChris Williamson0:47

       Rubbish bin. Yeah.

   22. JDDr. John Delony0:47

       Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

   23. CWChris Williamson0:47

       You don't know what that means. Crack that open. Come on, get it in you.

   24. JDDr. John Delony0:49

       All right.

   25. CWChris Williamson0:50

       You've been waiting for this.

   26. JDDr. John Delony0:51

       I've been excited for this moment.

   27. CWChris Williamson0:52

       Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, you'll have an unlimited amount going to the office soon.

   28. JDDr. John Delony0:55

       Well, I appreciate that, man.

   29. CWChris Williamson0:55

       Orange Sunrise for you.

   30. JDDr. John Delony0:57

       Excellent. This is my first one. This is my, uh, live review.
2. 8:47 – 14:34

   Is It Possible To Have Friendships With Those We Work With?

   1. CWChris Williamson8:47

      Yeah. I, uh, I had, uh, an, an incident that opened up, uh, something similar. It was my birthday a couple of weeks ago and, um, I finished recording upstairs, finished this episode and came down and Jonathan, who's outside, his dog was walking around. I was like, "What the fuck's Jonathan's dog doing here? Uh, oh, he must be here to show us the new merch samples," because we were signing to get merch done. And as I walked in, it turned out that there was a surprise birthday, like, celebration for me.

   2. JDDr. John Delony9:15

      Mm-hmm. Yeah.

   3. CWChris Williamson9:16

      And there was only five people there, all of them worked for me in one form or another, or worked with me and, uh, it was the middle of the day on a Friday. So, like, who's free at 2:00 PM on a Friday to come and do stuff? And it was tiny... And my best friend was getting married the next day and I was his best man here in Texas. So, you know, I'm, my head's in a different place, I'm thinking about the speech. I've g- you know, I've just finished this episode. Oh, I gotta go and work on the speech. I gotta remember the thing, the do the joke about the white people.

   4. JDDr. John Delony9:40

      (laughs)

   5. CWChris Williamson9:40

      And, uh, I come down and there's, you know, five people and th- they'd put a banner up and it said, "Happy birthday," and there was a cake and they were, one of the guys was filming it, our videographer Max was filming it. And, uh, I was like, "Oh, this is really, really beautiful." And then we sat down and we had some cakes. It was all laid out really nicely. Then they sang Happy Birthday to me and there was this bit, there was this sense as I went down, (laughs) as you said there, about almost having this odd guilt debt that you want to repay to people because, well, if, if they're doing this just because they love me-

   6. JDDr. John Delony10:17

      Mm-hmm.

   7. CWChris Williamson10:17

      ... then I need to be able to sort of feel that in a way.

   8. JDDr. John Delony10:20

      Yeah.

   9. CWChris Williamson10:20

      As opposed to there being some sort of value exchange, you know, all of these people in one form or another work with me, work for me.

   10. JDDr. John Delony10:27

       Mm.

   11. CWChris Williamson10:27

       And, uh, that's fine. You know, we're working together, we're building this project, we're doing the whatever thing. And, uh, yeah. Watching five people sing Happy Birthday to me at 2:30 PM on a Friday, I did a live show in London last year to three and a half thousand people. The five people-

   12. JDDr. John Delony10:40

       Yeah.

   13. CWChris Williamson10:40

       ... was way more uncomfortable.

   14. JDDr. John Delony10:42

       Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

   15. CWChris Williamson10:43

       Because I was seen by them in a way.

   16. JDDr. John Delony10:44

       But, but think of, think of the world we've set up. Um, uh, Dr. Joiner, he is out of, uh, Florida State. He writes really eloquently on suicide.

   17. CWChris Williamson10:53

       Right.

   18. JDDr. John Delony10:54

       And one of the, the, the three legs of the stool is of, when you're doing a suicide assessment, is perceived burdensomeness.

   19. CWChris Williamson11:01

       Mm-hmm.

   20. JDDr. John Delony11:02

       Does that idea ring-

   21. CWChris Williamson11:03

       People would be better if I wasn't here.

   22. JDDr. John Delony11:04

       If I wasn't here. But look at the world we've built, like, I'm not gonna ask you to take me to the airport, I'll just Uber. I'm not gonna ask you, "Can I borrow some eggs and sugar?" I'm just gonna, like, Instacart or whatever. And I think the meta-narrative is, my presence is a burden too.

   23. CWChris Williamson11:21

       Oh, yes.

   24. JDDr. John Delony11:21

       And if you guys a-... It's, it's the air we breathe that everyone, I'm going to bother people. Even, and now every relationship we have is transactional. And your experiences, man, it's very common that you wake up and the only people in your life are on your payroll or on somebody's payroll-

   25. CWChris Williamson11:36

       Mm-hmm.

   26. JDDr. John Delony11:36

       Like y'all are on, on the same payroll.

   27. CWChris Williamson11:37

       Mm-hmm.

   28. JDDr. John Delony11:38

       And man, (exhales) toot, toot, toot, toot. That, (laughs) your body would be failing you if it let you sleep all night 'cause it knows you're lonely, right?

   29. CWChris Williamson11:47

       Mm-hmm. In some ways I've heard you, uh, this, um, do you have people in your life that you can talk to that are just your friends that you don't work with? That seems to be a common thread-

   30. JDDr. John Delony11:57

       Yeah.
3. 14:34 – 23:39

   Do People Love You For Who You Are Or What You Do?

   1. JDDr. John Delony14:34

   2. CWChris Williamson14:34

      James, you spoke about him earlier on the other half of Mutonic, um, I fucking love this story. I tell it all the time, but I fucking adore it. He did a load of mushrooms.

   3. JDDr. John Delony14:42

      (laughs)

   4. CWChris Williamson14:42

      I won't, I won't, I won't mention the country in, in, in case that they're gonna kick him out. Uh, did a load of mushrooms on a rock, and this question came to him, and the question was, "Do people love you for who you are or for what you do?"

   5. JDDr. John Delony14:53

      Mm.

   6. CWChris Williamson14:54

      And, you know, people loving you for what you do feels transactional, it feels flimsy-

   7. JDDr. John Delony15:03

      Mm-hmm.

   8. CWChris Williamson15:04

      ... uh, it feels volatile. And, you know, the subtext is, if I stopped doing what I do, then the love would be taken away from me as well. What we want is people to love us for who we are because it feels grounded and, um, uh, forever. It- i- i- it's, uh, attached to our sense of self, where our work isn't. Um, and it's, uh, rigid, right?

   9. JDDr. John Delony15:25

      Mm.

   10. CWChris Williamson15:25

       And, you know, I told this story on the pod, and someone asked, "Well, it's an interesting question, but a more interesting question is do you love you for who you are or for what you do?"

   11. JDDr. John Delony15:35

       Mm-hmm.

   12. CWChris Williamson15:36

       Because a lot of the time, we want the world to love us for who we are. Meanwhile, we love us for what we do.

   13. JDDr. John Delony15:40

       That's right.

   14. CWChris Williamson15:40

       So you're asking the world to show up for you in a way that you're not prepared to show up for yourself.

   15. JDDr. John Delony15:46

       That's right.

   16. CWChris Williamson15:46

       You don't love you for who you are-

   17. JDDr. John Delony15:49

       That's right.

   18. CWChris Williamson15:50

       ... for the fact that you actually care about other people-

   19. JDDr. John Delony15:53

       Mm-hmm.

   20. CWChris Williamson15:53

       ... that you have empathy, that, yeah, sure, it looks a little bit wimpy when you cry at Christmas films, but it's because you've got a soft side to you-

   21. JDDr. John Delony16:00

       Right, right. (laughs)

   22. CWChris Williamson16:00

       ... or because you're really reliable. You know, like, like, genuine good traits that are as timeless as you can be. You, no, no, no, no, you've judged yourself on the last 10 hours of productivity and the fact that you got distracted on YouTube for 30 minutes despite the fact that you've crushed it. Even if you look at your productivity over the last six months, you've crushed it as well. But, no, no, no, you're gonna, you know exactly where your shortcomings lie and the scabs that you can pick at and the scars, and you know exactly what to say to yourself to torture yourself about these things.

   23. JDDr. John Delony16:29

       Mm-hmm.

   24. CWChris Williamson16:29

       And y- y- you're not a nice friend to you-

   25. JDDr. John Delony16:33

       Mm-hmm.

   26. CWChris Williamson16:34

       ... but you want the world to be a nice friend to you.

   27. JDDr. John Delony16:36

       Yeah.

   28. CWChris Williamson16:36

       You want the world to love you for who you are, meanwhile you love you for what you do.

   29. JDDr. John Delony16:39

       Yeah.

   30. CWChris Williamson16:39

       And I just thought that was such a lovely little-
4. 23:39 – 28:30

   Advice On How To Support Men

   1. CWChris Williamson23:39

      Men want to aim high without feeling insufficient if they fall short. Men want their suffering to be recognized and appreciated without being pandered to or patronized and made to feel weak. Men want to believe that they can become more without feeling like they're not enough already. Men want to be able to open up without being judged. Men want support without feeling broken. Men want to be loved for who they are, not for what they do. Too long, didn't read, blending inspiration with compassion is not an easy task.

   2. JDDr. John Delony24:02

      Mm.

   3. CWChris Williamson24:03

      "How do I set lofty goals which drive me to fulfill my potential without feeling less than if I don't get there tomorrow?" said every guy ever. The desire for self-love and high performance comes into conflict inside of the mind of everyone, men especially. Sure, some men are all drive and goals with non-introspection. And sure, some men are all reflection and inner work with few external desires."But most men desire a mix of encouraged self-belief and understanding support. Inevitably, these two things come into conflict. Basically, every man just wants to hear, 'I know you can be more, but you are enough already, and even if you just stay where you are, I'll be right here next to you. You're going to be great, but you don't need to be great, and I'm with you no matter what.' Or, as said best by Sturgill Simpson's mum, 'Boy, I don't care if you hit it big because you're already number one.'"

   4. JDDr. John Delony24:51

      Mm. Yeah. That's powerful.

   5. CWChris Williamson24:53

      And that reminds me of what your wife said.

   6. JDDr. John Delony24:54

      Yeah.

   7. CWChris Williamson24:55

      You know? Like, this is all great, but it also throws into harsh contrast, why am I doing it?

   8. JDDr. John Delony25:02

      Yeah.

   9. CWChris Williamson25:02

      If people love me for who I am, why am I doing what I do?

   10. JDDr. John Delony25:06

       Yeah. Well, if you're doing it because you think it's gonna feel some way on the back end, that's, that's the tale as old as time, right? That's the great, that's the, the Jim Carey speech, right?

   11. CWChris Williamson25:18

       I wish everyone could become rich and famous as ouchy, it's not gonna fix something.

   12. JDDr. John Delony25:21

       Yeah, it's nonsense. Yeah, it's nonsense. And, I think the, the alternative that we've got the last 15, 20 years is, "Well, I'm just gonna opt out and play video games," and that's a recipe for disaster too. I think we, uh, you know Michael Easter's book, The Comfort Crisis-

   13. CWChris Williamson25:34

       Yep, mm-hmm.

   14. JDDr. John Delony25:34

       ... which I think is a masterpiece, I think we have a culture that's, that's allergic to discomfort. And so I think that tension is, that's where joy is. That's where meaning is, is, "I'm enough, and I can hold that loosely enough so that I can hit that guy real hard."

   15. CWChris Williamson25:49

       Mm-hmm.

   16. JDDr. John Delony25:49

       They, they edited a breakdown on ESPN the other day of Alex, uh, Pereira-

   17. CWChris Williamson25:55

       Pereira.

   18. JDDr. John Delony25:55

       ... and his, they talk about how hard he hits, that it's otherworldly. And the, they had an interview with the referee, he's like, "He, the sound it makes when he hits another human is different," right?

   19. CWChris Williamson26:06

       (laughs)

   20. JDDr. John Delony26:06

       And I just thought, "Man, c- c- can you imagine being able to do that?" But they say it comes from how calm he is, right?

   21. CWChris Williamson26:11

       Mm. Mm.

   22. JDDr. John Delony26:11

       His ability to stay at, until he uncorks.

   23. CWChris Williamson26:15

       Yeah.

   24. JDDr. John Delony26:16

       And, um, my coach used to always say, like, "Dude, you're like a bear. You're, like, so tense all the time, and it takes away." And so I think if men knew, "Oh, she loves me no matter what," that actually drives that anchor deep into the concrete so you can rappel off the edge and go do something bananas.

   25. CWChris Williamson26:33

       Yeah. Yeah, that-

   26. JDDr. John Delony26:33

       And it sounds counterintuitive.

   27. CWChris Williamson26:34

       Mm-hmm. Yeah, that you don't need to push me. I'll push myself more if I know that I don't need to.

   28. JDDr. John Delony26:39

       Let me know I'm anchored.

   29. CWChris Williamson26:40

       Yeah.

   30. JDDr. John Delony26:40

       Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
5. 28:30 – 31:52

   Why Do We Tend To Be Critical Of Others?

   1. JDDr. John Delony28:30

   2. CWChris Williamson28:30

      Well, the problem is-

   3. JDDr. John Delony28:31

      God almighty, dude.

   4. CWChris Williamson28:31

      ... we don't like to think the best of people because hypocrisy on the internet is like catnip, right? Being able to catch somebody out. This was the reason, you remember when Joe got, uh, popped for his N-word video, um-

   5. JDDr. John Delony28:44

      Yeah.

   6. CWChris Williamson28:44

      ... which is like five minutes of you hard, uh, actually hard R-ing your way through stuff.

   7. JDDr. John Delony28:47

      Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

   8. CWChris Williamson28:48

      A combination of aying and hard R-ing. Anyway, um, this video goes live, and, uh, Joe's like, "Yeah, fuck, that looks bad. That's, that's, that's not, that's not good." And the internet was told by legacy media, "This is what this guy is truly like, and this is what it means about him. He's really the secret bigoted, racist, homophobic, xenophobic, transphobe, blah, blah, blah, that we've always known he was."

   9. JDDr. John Delony29:13

      Mm.

   10. CWChris Williamson29:14

       They were saying, "This is the tip of the iceberg, and we know that below it is all of this." But, the problem was most of the people they were trying to convince are like, "I've listened to 500 hours of him speaking. You're saying that this is the tip of the iceberg. I've seen the whole iceberg. I know there's nothing down there, or I have a reliable sense that there isn't anything down there." S- and that situation kind of taught me what gets sucked in, what, what causes people to get sucked in to this, and the precise thing is a vacuum of information-

   11. JDDr. John Delony29:47

       Mm.

   12. CWChris Williamson29:48

       ... and this speculation, the, the opportunity for people to point a finger and say, "Ah, see? I got him. I fucking, I got him."

   13. JDDr. John Delony29:53

       Yeah.

   14. CWChris Williamson29:53

       And, um, no, the, the principle of charity is not extended to people on the internet.

   15. JDDr. John Delony29:57

       But i- it's not extended to people in our homes. Like the Gottmans say when you distill all the way down what makes a great marriage beyond all, like religion, finances, are y'all friends? Like, I've got a buddy who lives, what, five hours west of here. His name's John too. He was Fat John, and I was Hyper John.

   16. CWChris Williamson30:13

       Mm.

   17. JDDr. John Delony30:14

       And back in the day, dude would always leave cans out everywhere, always. Always, always, always. The single worst text responder in human history. It doesn't matter. The guy cannot respond to a text. It's phenomenal.

   18. CWChris Williamson30:27

       Mm.

   19. JDDr. John Delony30:28

       Not one time have, have I ever left his house and thought... I- he left, leaving cans out-What is he trying to say about our friendship? Not one time.

   20. CWChris Williamson30:36

       Hmm.

   21. JDDr. John Delony30:36

       When he doesn't respond, not one time have I thought, "Does he, does he, does he not love me? What does this mean for us?"

   22. CWChris Williamson30:41

       Hmm.

   23. JDDr. John Delony30:41

       Not once. He's my friend. That guy stood in front of me and thrown punches on my behalf, literally. He's opened up his house to me for decades. He's my friend. Right? And, but I don't give my wife that, "What do these towels mean?" Right?

   24. CWChris Williamson30:54

       (laughs)

   25. JDDr. John Delony30:54

       Or like, like, "What is happening in this house?" Like, or, "There's a dish in the dishwasher. What is he trying to tell me?"

   26. CWChris Williamson31:00

       Yep.

   27. JDDr. John Delony31:00

       Right? And we make this huge character assassination. We just... It's madness. I don't even, so I don't think it, I think what's happening on the internet is a, is a magnification of what happens in our own homes. We're so unsure of ourselves, we walk around with these glasses on trying to find where everybody else has holes so we can be like, "Yep, yep, yep, yep."

   28. CWChris Williamson31:18

       Hmm.

   29. JDDr. John Delony31:18

       And that's the way we try to prop ourselves up to say, uh, "I, I, I, I've got value too." Right?

   30. CWChris Williamson31:23

       Mm-hmm.
6. 31:52 – 42:58

   Why Do We Feel The Need To Fix Those We Date?

   1. CWChris Williamson31:52

      Speaking about challenges, why do you think people regularly get into relationships with partners that they feel like they need to fix?

   2. JDDr. John Delony32:00

      Yeah, I think that old, that old adage in, in marriage therapy is true. You marry your unfinished business. I think the, the way I would describe it is, your nervous system puts little GPS pins in there when you're a kid. And you're constantly asking, "Why doesn't that man love me? He's supposed to." And, or, "Why is this shiny little box more important than me?" Or, "Why did my mom pick up that bottle of wine and not pick up me?" And you constantly are trying to solve that loop. And man, you get older, and you wanna, your, your body repeats what it knows, and you go in and try to solve that situation again, and you do it again. I was just talking to somebody in, in the, outside of the grocery store the other day, uh, just a minute ago about the same exact thing.

   3. CWChris Williamson32:39

      Hmm.

   4. JDDr. John Delony32:39

      Your body just goes in and tries to solve it again and solve it again. You gotta get outside that loop, um, otherwise you just repeat it and you repeat it and you repeat it, because over time, you re- realize, "Ah, the seven-year-old's not the problem. Seven-year-old's never the problem."

   5. CWChris Williamson32:53

      Well, I suppose you can become enchanted by a person that you're attached to.

   6. JDDr. John Delony32:59

      Yeah.

   7. CWChris Williamson33:00

      Which fills a literal void inside of you. And when this is a primary caretaker, this is good. But when this is an inappropriate partner, it's not. So you're used to, I think a lot of the time, if you grow up around difficult adults, children can't change or get rid of their caregivers, so they just learn to cope. They-

   8. JDDr. John Delony33:20

      They learn to solve it.

   9. CWChris Williamson33:21

      Yeah, they learn to hold on to th- long enough and in the hopes that maybe the person will take mercy on them and change. If you're five-

   10. JDDr. John Delony33:28

       Yeah.

   11. CWChris Williamson33:29

       ... you don't have a passport.

   12. JDDr. John Delony33:30

       Right.

   13. CWChris Williamson33:30

       You don't know how to leave the house. So you become, if you were not cared for in the way that you should as a child, you learned to become unusually good at surviving on a meager diet of love.

   14. JDDr. John Delony33:46

       Or you learn to sing and dance and get it. Right?

   15. CWChris Williamson33:49

       I've gotta perform.

   16. JDDr. John Delony33:51

       I, I remember, uh, one of the coolest things about going back to grad school as an old man is I had to do a practicum again. And I was working with this brilliant man named, a psychologist named Dr. Michael Gomez. And I remember we were sitting with these kids that had some pretty remarkable trauma. And one of the kids was making straight As. And during a debrief, I said, uh, "This..." He's like, "All right, who's, who's gonna struggle here? Where do we go?" And I said, "This one's gonna be okay." And I said, "Why?" And he goes, "Well, he's performing well. He's doing great. He's ma- he's making great grades." And he said something that has rattled me since. He said, "Straight As can be a trauma response too, John. And you can burn a building down. You, you will be s- You, kids will find a way to be seen, or they'll find a way to hide. They'll find a way to stay safe. And they'll nuzzle up against you." So I, I think kids are always trying to solve. And yeah, there's some that have to survive on just sips of oxygen, right?

   17. CWChris Williamson34:43

       Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

   18. JDDr. John Delony34:43

       Through a straw. But others will be really good on that tee ball field, man, 'cause that makes my dad exhale.

   19. CWChris Williamson34:49

       Well, I mean...

   20. JDDr. John Delony34:50

       Right?

   21. CWChris Williamson34:50

       That's why when we look at, you know, the highest performers in business and, and, uh-

   22. JDDr. John Delony34:54

       Yeah.

   23. CWChris Williamson34:56

       ... content creation output and the world of sports and all the rest of it, for the most part, what you should look at these people with is pity, not envy.

   24. JDDr. John Delony35:04

       Yeah.

   25. CWChris Williamson35:04

       You think, "What has happened to this person to cause them to need to do that to themselves?"

   26. JDDr. John Delony35:10

       Mm-hmm.

   27. CWChris Williamson35:11

       That's not for me to say that all high performers don't have-

   28. JDDr. John Delony35:13

       Sure.

   29. CWChris Williamson35:14

       Some don't have a good balance of desire for more and running away from past trauma and all the rest of the stuff. Uh, many do, but most don't.

   30. JDDr. John Delony35:21

       Mm-hmm.
7. 42:58 – 46:12

   Our Constant Search To Have Our Needs Fulfilled

   1. JDDr. John Delony42:58

      Yeah. I wanna ask you, can I... Can we pontificate?

   2. CWChris Williamson43:01

      Fire away.

   3. JDDr. John Delony43:03

      I've been wrestling with Maslow's hierarchy. Once you get above physiology and love, I don't know that this idea of esteem and self-actualization can co-exist on top of these things. I think they are interwoven.

   4. CWChris Williamson43:20

      Okay.

   5. JDDr. John Delony43:21

      And I think that we may have, um, given ourself an illusion that you, you, you become actualized as you're choosing to love every day-

   6. CWChris Williamson43:31

      Hmm.

   7. JDDr. John Delony43:31

      ... despite hard things and how to forgive, and you find esteem by consistently being part of safety and consistently being part of a community and coming back in when you get separated.

   8. CWChris Williamson43:41

      Mm-hmm.

   9. JDDr. John Delony43:41

      And this idea that they're separate and somehow, they're... We're all gonna become this little lighthouse on a hill, I just don't think that... I think we're at the end of self-actualization, this, this notion-

   10. CWChris Williamson43:51

       Okay.

   11. JDDr. John Delony43:51

       ... that we can somehow be s- be, all be little lighthouses on a hill. I don't think that's how we're wired and designed.

   12. CWChris Williamson43:56

       I certainly think it's more difficult in the modern world, because let's face it, the safety needs, the basic needs, the survival needs, like, you know, th- they're, they're looked after. You don't have to do anything for them.

   13. JDDr. John Delony44:08

       Yeah.

   14. CWChris Williamson44:09

       So, all of those needs now... Uh, uh, for instance, good example, um, you're not going to starve. Pr- most people listening to this-

   15. JDDr. John Delony44:15

       Sure, sure.

   16. CWChris Williamson44:16

       ... podcast, I would like to think, aren't going to starve. Um, but that doesn't mean that someone is going to cook a meal and put it on your dinner table.

   17. JDDr. John Delony44:23

       Mm-hmm.

   18. CWChris Williamson44:23

       Right? So there's a difference between having food in the house so that the people around you don't starve-

   19. JDDr. John Delony44:28

       Yep.

   20. CWChris Williamson44:28

       ... and serving them through something which they still need, right?

   21. JDDr. John Delony44:32

       Exactly, yes, yes.

   22. CWChris Williamson44:33

       Is that what you're talking... Sort of a relationship between the two?

   23. JDDr. John Delony44:36

       Well, I think implied, especially in the modern world is, um... And again, I, I don't know what Maslow was thinking, but there's absent participation in these bottom rungs.

   24. CWChris Williamson44:47

       Hmm.

   25. JDDr. John Delony44:47

       There's an expectation that they're gonna exist for us so that I can get to the, the more important stuff of sitting in a room and thinking about how great I am.

   26. CWChris Williamson44:54

       Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

   27. JDDr. John Delony44:54

       Or painting-

   28. CWChris Williamson44:54

       Whole Foods-

   29. JDDr. John Delony44:55

       ... painting a p-

   30. CWChris Williamson44:55

       Whole Foods has got that sorted. The police have got safety sorted.
8. 46:12 – 52:35

   Do We Find Fulfilment In Our Job?

   1. CWChris Williamson46:12

      I mean, how many people do you know that have reached some degree of success... Uh, two people that I think of, uh, Tucker Max and Ryan Holiday, both of whom live in opposite directions out here from Austin. Uh, two people who, big businesses, very successful, authors, well-known, renowned, money, opportunities, blah, blah, blah, essentially retired to do the thing that they used to do full-time, part-time, and to hammer fence posts in full-time.

   2. JDDr. John Delony46:35

      Huh.

   3. CWChris Williamson46:36

      Like, you know, they're ranching and wrangling-

   4. JDDr. John Delony46:38

      (laughs)

   5. CWChris Williamson46:38

      ... and fucking hoeing the ground and fixing fence posts, and the sheeps got stuck and blah, blah, blah.

   6. JDDr. John Delony46:43

      Yeah.

   7. CWChris Williamson46:43

      Well, why? It's because chopping wood and carrying water actually gives you a sense of satisfaction that it's hard to find elsewhere. But I gotta... I, I've been thinking an awful lot about where people take joy and satisfaction from in their work.

   8. JDDr. John Delony46:57

      Mm-hmm.

   9. CWChris Williamson46:57

      And for people who maybe have a little bit of agency or self-determination to the sort of work that they do-

   10. JDDr. John Delony47:04

       Mm-hmm.

   11. CWChris Williamson47:05

       ... doesn't necessarily need to be a business owner, but they can maybe contribute to how the teams are put together, maybe part of a small business or a startup, or maybe they are a, you know, independent contractor or something like that. And, um, I've been thinking a lot about bands and the way that bands, um, they have to work very hard, but it's a very enjoyable, uh, career. And performing and concerts rank as some of the highest happiness-

   12. JDDr. John Delony47:28

       Mm-hmm.

   13. CWChris Williamson47:28

       ... pursuits that you can do. Like, huge, huge, huge studies that look at, um, anything that's collective effervescence, especially if you're performing, but also if you're experiencing. And you have to presume that if you're performing, you also get the benefit of experiencing-

   14. JDDr. John Delony47:39

       Yeah, of course.

   15. CWChris Williamson47:39

       ... at the same time. And, um, I was thinking, like, "Okay, so what is it that they're doing that's keeping them going when they're, you know, 50 dates deep into this big long tour and they're in fucking Japan and they're sleep-deprived and blah, blah, blah?"

   16. JDDr. John Delony47:51

       Mm-hmm.

   17. CWChris Williamson47:51

       And I think a big part of it is having other people to share the successes with.

   18. JDDr. John Delony47:56

       Yeah.

   19. CWChris Williamson47:56

       To be able to... And I don't just mean like coming home to your wife and her going, "No, thank... Good for you, honey," or whatever it might be. But, a good thing happens and you have someone that you can go, "Ah, that's fucking sick."

   20. JDDr. John Delony48:07

       (laughs)

   21. CWChris Williamson48:07

       You know what I mean?

   22. JDDr. John Delony48:08

       Yeah.

   23. CWChris Williamson48:08

       Like, and it wasn't your wife in that moment, but it was your manager.

   24. JDDr. John Delony48:11

       That's right.

   25. CWChris Williamson48:12

       Right? You-

   26. JDDr. John Delony48:12

       Yeah.

   27. CWChris Williamson48:12

       ... on the phone to your manager, your manager's there-

   28. JDDr. John Delony48:14

       Yeah.

   29. CWChris Williamson48:15

       ... screaming down the phone because you're both on a journey together.

   30. JDDr. John Delony48:17

       That's right.
9. 52:35 – 58:30

   Why Do We Stay In Relationships That Aren't Fulfilling?

   1. JDDr. John Delony52:35

   2. CWChris Williamson52:35

      Um, talking about, I guess, the next step. People get into relationships with those that they feel like they need to fix.

   3. JDDr. John Delony52:43

      Mm.

   4. CWChris Williamson52:44

      Why do people stay in relationships even if they're not being fulfilled?

   5. JDDr. John Delony52:51

      Hmm. Talk to me about fulfillment, and I think sometimes that's the model you have. I think sometimes I'm not worth my needs being fulfilled. Sometimes I don't even know what that would feel like if my needs were fulfilled. And so, kind of what you talked about earlier, I'm just gonna keep expanding what my needs need to be because my need is actually seeing you, how high you can jump, and it just keeps expanding, expanding. But I think for most of us, we don't have a model of what it looks like. Our moms and dads, if you look at the demographics across, like, there was only one parent in the house, or they were co-managers of the house, didn't even like each other, right?

   6. CWChris Williamson53:27

      Mm-hmm.

   7. JDDr. John Delony53:27

      And I've got no picture of what someone who actually loves me and is connected with me and quote unquote needs. Uh, and by the way, I've been struggling lately, and love to get your thoughts on this. I've been struggling with the idea of needs.

   8. CWChris Williamson53:40

      Mm.

   9. JDDr. John Delony53:40

      Uh, 'cause I think needs have turned modern relationships into a very parasitic relationship.

   10. CWChris Williamson53:47

       Mm.

   11. JDDr. John Delony53:47

       And I think beneath that, a more vulnerable, scary question to ask is what I want. And I think it's easy if I lob a need grenade at you-

   12. CWChris Williamson53:55

       Mm-hmm.

   13. JDDr. John Delony53:56

       ... "I need you to do these things, this, this, this, this, and this," versus, "Man, I really want you to X, Y, and Z." 'Cause one of those, I kind of take out the, "I need this, and if you don't do this, then, then you're not performing."

   14. CWChris Williamson54:08

       Mm-hmm.

   15. JDDr. John Delony54:09

       Or, "I really want you. Do you want me too? Do you see me?"

   16. CWChris Williamson54:12

       Oh, that's lovely.

   17. JDDr. John Delony54:13

       And so I think most of us are so terrified at asking the want question of ourselves and of our partner-

   18. CWChris Williamson54:19

       Mm-hmm.

   19. JDDr. John Delony54:19

       ... that we cast it all as needs.

   20. CWChris Williamson54:21

       Right. Because the want can be denied.

   21. JDDr. John Delony54:23

       That's right.

   22. CWChris Williamson54:24

       But the need can't, or the want-

   23. JDDr. John Delony54:26

       Most-

   24. CWChris Williamson54:26

       ... should i- g- could be denied, but the need should not.

   25. JDDr. John Delony54:28

       If you deny my needs, you're an ass.

   26. CWChris Williamson54:30

       Mm-hmm.

   27. JDDr. John Delony54:31

       If you deny my wants-

   28. CWChris Williamson54:32

       'Cause you might not want them.

   29. JDDr. John Delony54:34

       ... that's different. Uh, the, one of the most common questions I get from married men is, "I just want her... I j- I just want more sex," right? "I want more sex. I want better sex," et cetera. But they come at it with, "I need more sex." But if you need something, then it goes on the chore list along with the diapers and the this, and I gotta clean the kitchen-

   30. CWChris Williamson54:51

       Which is unbelievably sexy.
10. 58:30 – 1:09:54

    Building Up Courage To Walk Away From A Relationship

    1. CWChris Williamson58:30

       I guess, okay, moving one step forward from this, if somebody feels convinced that they should leave a relationship but they're struggling to accumulate the bravery to be able to sort of pull the pin, maybe they've got close a few times and they've bailed out, uh, what would you say to sort of motivate that person who deep down knows that it's the right thing to do, but-

    2. JDDr. John Delony58:55

       Mm-hmm.

    3. CWChris Williamson58:55

       ... as of yet, just the courage kind of hasn't come to them?

    4. JDDr. John Delony58:59

       Yeah, that's a great question. I think, uh, I think there's a practical aspect to this, and then I think there's a relational aspect to this. If, um... there's a very real, um, the data's pretty clear that, you know, more women file for divorce, but women's net worth often plummets, right? And so there's a very real economic consequence. So if you're married to somebody, if you're living with somebody and you go, "I gotta get out of this thing," there's a very real math problem you have to solve. And that's un- fortunate and that's scary, and the social services are pretty tough. But there's a very real question.

    5. CWChris Williamson59:31

       I suppose the, the equivalent would be the same for men, but in reverse, paying alimony and blah, blah.

    6. JDDr. John Delony59:34

       That's, that's exactly right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, and so I think there's a, there's a math problem there. Not to say stay together for the math, right? That's, I haven't heard, I haven't seen that bumper sticker. But, um, there's a very real reality to this. The other side of it is, I know for most of us, when emotions are a sign, especially strong emotions, are a sign that your body's trying to protect you. And when your body's trying to protect you, you're not thinking. And so, for me it's been very important to have a couple of men in my life that I outsource some of these things to. "I'm gonna sit down with you, make sure I'm seeing this thing clearly."

    7. CWChris Williamson1:00:04

       Mm.

    8. JDDr. John Delony1:00:04

       "'Cause here's what I'm feeling." And it's been more than once in my life when I sit down with a few of my old 30-year-plus ride or die buddies and I'm like, "She's doing this and this and this," and they're like, "Have you looked in a mirror, man?" And they're able to see something, right? No, no warrior goes into battle without eyes in the sky. And so I think, um, I often, or in our, in our lone ranger cowboy world we live in, man, it's, you gotta know all this b- all do this by yourself.

    9. CWChris Williamson1:00:31

       Mm.

    10. JDDr. John Delony1:00:31

        And so, I'm constantly telling people, "Dude, go get a cup of coffee with somebody and just exhale."

    11. CWChris Williamson1:00:35

        Mm.

    12. JDDr. John Delony1:00:35

        And then tell them what's going on. And they may say, "Hey," there's a common thing on my show, someone will call and be like, "My sex life is screwed up, we have, only had sex twice last year, it's a disaster, it's falling apart," and then 10 minutes into the conversation it's like, "Well, we have a five-year-old, a three-year-old, a one-year-old, and she's pregnant." I'm like, "Bro, hang up the phone and call me back."

    13. CWChris Williamson1:00:52

        (laughs)

    14. JDDr. John Delony1:00:52

        Like, you'll all- you'll have survival sex. Y'all are figuring this thing out. Like, you're not broken, it's okay, right?

    15. CWChris Williamson1:00:59

        Mm-hmm.

    16. JDDr. John Delony1:00:59

        Um, but that's just, you just need somebody to sit with you. Um, but when it comes to courage and bravery, I think at some point we have to head into the discomfort. I mean, that's all the, that's all Jud Brewer stuff on anxiety, right? You gotta head into it-

    17. CWChris Williamson1:01:10

        Mm.

    18. JDDr. John Delony1:01:10

        ... the thing that you're scared about and anxious about.

    19. CWChris Williamson1:01:12

        We'll get back to talking to John in just one minute, but first, I need to tell you about Function. Staying on top of your health requires more than just an annual physical, which is why I partnered with Function. They run lab tests twice a year that track over a hundred biomarkers and monitor for early signs of thousands of diseases. They even screen for 50 types of cancer at stage one, which is five times more than you get from an annual physical. You receive insights from a team of expert physicians who provide detailed written clinician summaries of their observations and phone consultations for any critical findings. Getting these lab tests done would usually cost thousands, but with Function it's only $500. And right now, you can get the exact same blood panels that I get and bypass their wait list by going to the link in the description below or heading to functionhealth.com/modernwisdom. That's functionhealth.com/modernwisdom. Yeah, I think, um, some of the questions I've- I've asked friends about when they've been on the fence, unsure, scared about being alone, about losing this attachment, you know, one of the things is, how much of your life is thinking about this breakup taking up?

    20. JDDr. John Delony1:02:20

        Yeah.

    21. CWChris Williamson1:02:20

        Like, what other productive or peaceful or mindful thoughts is this taking the space of?

    22. JDDr. John Delony1:02:27

        Mm-hmm. Yeah.

    23. CWChris Williamson1:02:27

        How often are you not present at dinner or not present at work or, you know, trying to meditate or train in the gym or do any of the things that usually bring you joy and you're not thinking about where you are? And, uh-

    24. JDDr. John Delony1:02:42

        That's one of my- When someone says, "Hey, should I break up with them? I'm thinking about this, this," I always say, "Absolutely, you should break up with them," and I just watch. And if their- if their shoulders drop, if their face drops-

    25. CWChris Williamson1:02:53

        Mm-hmm.

    26. JDDr. John Delony1:02:53

        ...that may be the right move.

    27. CWChris Williamson1:02:54

        Yeah.

    28. JDDr. John Delony1:02:55

        And if they tense up-

    29. CWChris Williamson1:02:56

        Because they've got a sense of relief.

    30. JDDr. John Delony1:02:56

        ...like, "No, no, no," yeah.

Episode duration: 2:03:32