EVERY SPOKEN WORD
150 min read · 30,002 words- 0:00 – 9:40
Does Business Get Harder With Growth?
- CWChris Williamson
The bigger it gets, the harder it gets. Is that a rule of business?
- DMDan Martell
Most people would think so. I think that the truth is, if you do it right, that as you grow, the bigger it is, the more resource you have, and it should get easier. My, I, the, the way I think about it is, I'm kind of on a mission to help entrepreneurs build companies they don't grow to hate, 'cause I have so many friends, people I have seen around that they're great creators. They're artists. They're, they got a passion to solve the problem, that's for sure. But their own craziness, it's almost like the entrepreneurial cra- like, it, it takes a certain level of, like, kind of being crazy. I mean, that's why people call them crazy, 'cause you're willing to do things that very few people are willing to do. You're, you can hold a vision that most people can't see. The problem is, is that if you don't adjust, that version of you will be the Achilles' heel to actually growing a business. You know, and, and oftentimes, your Achilles' heel to growing a business is the thing you're best at, because it's the thing that you're gonna be most maniacal at. You won't, you won't allow, you won't allow anybody else to do. You don't know how to work through people. Um, so it'll get you some level of success. But yeah, most people believe the bigger it gets, the harder it'll get. And because of that, they, they self-sabotage to play small-
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah, um-
- DMDan Martell
... 'cause it feels safe.
- CWChris Williamson
... your superpower becoming your Achilles' heel is something that I've felt basically throughout my entire career in business. Um, to give you my most obvious ridiculous example of this, uh, I ran one of the biggest events companies in the UK for about 15 years, and our first big weekly that we ran was a Saturday at a club called Riverside. Anyone that watched Geordie Shore, which was the UK equivalent of Jersey Shore, that was where they went every Saturday and, uh, we were absolutely crushing. This was the hottest event in town, between 1,000 and 1,500 kids every weekend and, uh, it was just churning out, uh, cash. Not insane money. You know, we'd maybe make five grand a week or something like that. Bottom line would be sort of two and a half to three something. But really, really great money. And I'm 24, 23, 24, 25. Phenomenal money between me and the other guys that ran the company. And, uh, we would need to set the club up. We'd need to hang inflatables from the ceiling, uh, the smoke machine, the haze machine, the banners that go over the barriers outside. You know, just sort of getting the club built-
- DMDan Martell
Yep, ready.
- CWChris Williamson
... ready for this. Every Saturday for four years without missing a single Saturday, for four years, 210, 208 Saturdays in a row, I built the club with my business partner. It, we could've paid any of the 400, 400 students that worked for us, 400 of them-
- DMDan Martell
And they're there.
- CWChris Williamson
... and they would have happily done it for £5 or £6 an hour. But I was adamant that nobody else could hang the inflatable in quite the right place that it needed to go, that what if this thing was missed off, this would be the beginning of the downfall of the business because if the smoke machine's five inches to the left, then Asian society's gonna stop coming to room two to watch R&B, and that's gonna be the beginning of the end and I'm, I'm gonna be homeless under a bridge. Um, so for four years, and the first weekend, I'll never forget the first weekend when I missed it was because I had such a bad, um, stomach infection thing that it just ripped me out of it and I couldn't. And then sort of the veils fell from my eyes and I realized, why have I spent four years of Saturdays from 11:00 AM until 2:00, sometimes 3:00 in the afternoon, when I could've been having fun, I could've been working on the business, could've been doing anything, uh, as opposed to just spending a bit of time training somebody up and, you know, £60 a week, uh, to get someone else to do it?
- DMDan Martell
It's one of those things because I had my equivalent experience on that just processing physical mail every Sunday, four hours. Go get the mail from the PO box and just sit there and process mail.
- CWChris Williamson
What was the business?
- DMDan Martell
It was a software company that sold enterprise and it was just, like, contracts, checks. Like, this is old school. This is 2004, 2005. And it was, you know, I remember reaching out to the CEO 'cause I just thought, "I gotta be doing this wrong." And he laughed. I said, "Well, who processes your mail?" This guy ran like a $100 million insurance company. And he says, "Well, my assistant." "Well, how do you, you know, what, what is that and how do you find them?" I just thought, like, that's not something people that start companies should have in the early days. I had all these beliefs around it. But, you know, it's, it's funny because it's also the reason you're successful 'cause there's, like, an, a level of attention to detail that's required that creates a product. Like, you obviously created a product and I'm, I was a big, I have this, like, secret addiction to reality TV, so I'm very familiar with Geordie Shore-
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- DMDan Martell
... funny enough. Um, and, and then again, it's just at a certain point, maybe it would've been six months, not four years, you know, handing it off to somebody else could've been a better use of your time. Even, just even energy. If you think about, like, just the amount of stuff people do they shouldn't be doing and how much head space it takes or the energy, whereas they could be a lot more present with the people they're with or more creative. It's, uh, it robs, you know, distractions rob a lot of people from bigger, bigger visions.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah, it's, uh, it's kind of embarrassing to realize, uh, you know, there's something called path dependency, which you might be familiar with.
- DMDan Martell
Heard of that one.
- CWChris Williamson
So, uh, path dependency is also called the Einstellung effect and it explains why we kind of get locked into particular modes of working. So for instance, the QWERTY keyboard on laptops is a path dependency from the QWERTY keyboard on typewriters.
- DMDan Martell
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah, where the most common, uh, letters would be out on the little fingers and letters weren't close together so it wouldn't fire two at the same time. There are other layouts for keyboards.
- DMDan Martell
Yeah, my, my software programming friends use different ones 'cause they're more efficient. Some of them actually have, like, four directions. It's like a touch and it's like a, it's a, it's a direction.
- CWChris Williamson
Oh, so when you hit it, you can-
- DMDan Martell
Yeah, so it's like-
- CWChris Williamson
... you know.
- DMDan Martell
... I think there's only f- 10...... Buttons, but you push it in a direction.
- CWChris Williamson
Oh, my God.
- DMDan Martell
So-
- CWChris Williamson
So you're never moving your finger away.
- DMDan Martell
No.
- CWChris Williamson
Each finger has a button.
- DMDan Martell
Ergonomically it's, it's like 160 words a minute, yeah.
- 9:40 – 13:31
Why Successful People Suffer With Being Too Busy
- CWChris Williamson
most people intend on buying back their time when they become wealthier and more successful, why is it the case that so many successful and wealthy people suffer with more busyness and chaos, th- rather than less, as they keep on growing?
- DMDan Martell
I mean, my experience was, I was so scared. My first company that finally were... I, I just started young. I was 17, I think, when I started my first company. You know, and there's always like the projects and how many domains do you own, let's put those aside, but corporations. So I went through two failed companies, 17 and 19, that left a scar, and it wasn't until I was 23 I, I decided, "I'm gonna do this again. Try something different." And in the first year, finally got traction. Like, did like 900 and some thousand in year one, which is... Like, blew my mind. The problem was, is I didn't know why I was successful, so I was running around spinning plates, and I only had one tool, which was essentially work my butt off. Like, when I say 100 hours a week, there was no... There was no leisure, there was no travel, there was nothing. It was, "I don't want this to implode yet again."
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- DMDan Martell
"I don't actually know why it's working and I'm just... I'm gonna g- keep doing what I do."
- CWChris Williamson
Terrified of failure.
- DMDan Martell
So, like, more t- like, so terrified, like-
- CWChris Williamson
Well, you become... Uh, uh, so I have never understood the sentence, "People aren't scared of failure, they're scared of success," until I heard you say, "The reason that people are scared of success is that they're, uh, have a higher point to fall from now."
- DMDan Martell
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
And you go, "Okay, so it's still failure."
- DMDan Martell
It is failure.
- CWChris Williamson
It's just failure from a higher altitude.
- DMDan Martell
Yeah, a perceived failure of attainment of something. It's either where I'm at and I fall down, or... And really, it's I'm, I'm not, I'm not scared of winning, I'm scared of what I'd have to g- that I'd... I'm scared of having to renegotiate the new standards at that level with everybody in my life.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- DMDan Martell
'Cause that's what happens with success, is that you start worrying about like... It's like if you lose weight. Like, most people don't even wanna lose weight because then they gotta keep it off, 'cause if they put it back on, then they fail.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
- DMDan Martell
So it's easier to just maintain what they got.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
- DMDan Martell
Like, "I don't want 10 mill-" And like what's funny is the language they use. They actually like pooh-pooh it. They like, "It's not about the stuff," you know? It's like, "I'm not a car guy." I hear all this stuff and I'm like, "No, it's actually a lot of fun driving around in a fun car." Like, so don't say it's not... you're not a car guy. You just... You're, you're telling yourselves these stories so you don't have to attain, because if you do, then you're gonna have to ask yourself like, "What's this new level of responsibility?"
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- DMDan Martell
What's funny is that most people when they start, and I know this is true for me, when I started, the mental model I had about success was actually a lot...I was way more driven. It's when I got up the mountain and I was halfway and I had something to lose now, I started getting scared and acting out of, you know, trying to protect. So I, I, I call that the big dog syndrome, when you become the big dog amongst your peer group. It feels good, but you're, but you, but you know inside you're just not there. Now and honestly, I wanna say this about your pod, like, what I love about what you've created is you continue to push. Like, you push, dude. Like, it's just, it's really cool from outside watching because I'm like, "Oh, no, this is a guy that cares about the craft." And there's no, like... If anything, every resource you get, you're like, "How do I pour it back in? How do..." And I think that's... I didn't have that when I started. It was something that I think I had to develop to respond to some of my desires, and honestly, do the work and be honest with myself. But yeah, I think, um, I think everything is like, you know, pain of fear, and then there's, you know, s- if you're lucky, you, you get to a place where you, you get pulled forward from a desire to do something bigger, and that's a different energy, right? There's a dark energy of, like, moving away from pain, and then there's a light energy of moving towards-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- DMDan Martell
... some level of, of creating something that's never been created before.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm. Yeah, I think if you don't ever learn to let go of that fear of failure, as you become more successful, the fear grows rather than diminishes-
- DMDan Martell
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... because of that.
- DMDan Martell
It's a dirty energy.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah, that higher altitude that you fall from. Okay, so getting into
- 13:31 – 23:11
How to Buy Back Your Time
- CWChris Williamson
the, uh, buy back your time and, and the buyback principle, it seems to me that there's sort of gonna be broadly two groups of people that this applies to. The first one is going to be, you know, a, a- aspiring little bit of, uh, disposable income within the business professionals, and then somebody, uh, uh, another group, uh, who maybe don't have the entrepreneurial side, but have got a little bit of disposable income within their personal lives and are just wanting to sort of free themselves up for that. Take me through the buyback principle, uh, h- how this works for someone that's never been introduced to it.
- DMDan Martell
Yeah, so the, the concept that I learned that, that helped me get to this place is calendar over capacity. So, and it sounds so subtle, but the mistake to make is to add people to your life that can do what you already do, because then it costs money and you didn't actually get an ROI. So I always look at my calendar. I don't add capacity. So like, if I was a logo designer and I was overwhelmed, most of them would go hire another logo designer. But what you should do is figure out the other stuff that isn't logo designing, have somebody take that off your plate so that you could do logo design, because that's what you get paid the most money. The buyback principle states you don't hire people to grow your business, you, you, you grow your business by buying back your time. Because if I buy back my time, then I can go do the thing that is the Achilles' heel or the friction point or the, the bottleneck of why I'm not growing. And if you do that, that's where you can build a business you don't grow to hate, because as you grow, you have more freedom. And it's kind of bananas, 'cause when people see it... N- and it doesn't even take money. So like, how do I get somebody else to help me with something? It could be an intern, right? It could be, um, a friend. You can literally ask friends. You, like you said, you could ask one of the 400 students. Um, and the whole premise is look at your calendar for the past two weeks and just ask yourself, "Where have I been doing tasks that are not things I enjoy doing," okay, I call them energy suckers, "that I could have paid somebody at least a quarter of what my hour is worth," okay, so a quarter or less, "to do." And the reality is, if you're doing anything on that list, you're working against your dreams. Like it's, this is, this is mathematical equations. If you're... If value creation in the world is what value you create within a unit of time, and let's call it an hour, then your ability to create value in that hour is the, the most, the most important thing. So you should not be doing anything for eight bucks an hour setting up the design thing when closing another or getting another contract to go promote another show could bring you, on average, $100 an hour for your effort. Like, it's just bad math. And that's why, like, my background in software really kind of made me think about like, "What's the first principles to leverage," right? All those four master skills, okay, cool, but how do I translate that into some kind of equation that I can kind of run through this loop? So the buyback loop, I run through it all the time. All the time.
- CWChris Williamson
What is the loop?
- DMDan Martell
The loop is as soon as you feel pain, okay, so I always say that most entrepreneurs hit a place where they, they hit a pain line, okay, where their opportunity, they could say yes, but saying yes would create chaos in their calendar. And guys like us, that's every day. We are not at the mercy of not enough opportunity. Some people are, that's not us. And what you want to do is that when you accidentally get to a place where you have that pain, then you have to go to the audit. So it's audit, transfer, fill. So audit stands for looking at my calendar two-week window and literally printing it off, if you're diligent in putting stuff in your calendar, it's a lot easier, but if you're not, that's cool, and you just highlight in red things that take your energy and dollar sign, one to four, one dollar sign is very inexpensive, four dollar signs saying, "Paying somebody to do what you do." And then you take all the reds and all the one dollar sign stuff and you put them in a bucket, and that is the only person you should hire next. And if you don't, you're literally making it hard on yourself. So I always, when people see me scale companies fast, they go, "How did you do that?" Well, I just, I follow that principle. Now, as you get bigger, now all of a sudden you're outsourcing more complex skills. But that is actually the... That's the skill to learn. How do you hire a creative director? How do you hire a general manager? How do you hire a VP of sales? H- Like, these are, you know, it's easy to hire an administrative assistant, and even some people have a hard time with that one.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- DMDan Martell
But like, learning how to build the machine that runs a machine is what I call it, and that is where, you know, some people say work on the business versus in the business. I always use my calendar, 'cause I wanna, I wanna literally audit, then transfer. So the way I transfer is video cameras. I literally record myself doing the thing. So for example, I do triathlons. I have a lot... I got one of these fancy bikes, I got two bikes, my road bike and my TT bike, and they have like computer chips and all this stuff and cam- like, all the Garmin devices. And it's actually like a pain in the butt to ma- the maintenance of it. So I had my assistant, did a video of me doing it. Here's how to do the chain, here's how I plug the machines in, it has to be done in this cycle. And I just record myself for like 12 minutes and then message them that video.... they created the SOP for the bike maintenance.
- CWChris Williamson
Hmm.
- DMDan Martell
They followed the bike maintenance, and then if there was any tweaks, I put it in the document, but it's got a training video and it's got a document. So I call that the camcorder method. That's the transfer side. So how do I take something in my calendar I don't wanna do no- no longer, transfer it, and then fill? This is the part most people get wrong. Most people hire folks before they know what they're gonna do with that new time, so then they feel lazy, then they feel guilty. So they hire an assistant and all of a sudden they have 10 hours back and they just, they watch Netflix, they chill out, they go to their friends. I- that's not what I'm t- I wanna help people build empires. Like the subtitle of my book is Build Your Empire. And for me, an empire is a life of unlimited creation you never have to retire from. Like I really wanna encourage every creator in the world, every entrepreneur, every artist, get to a place where as you think to create, you have the resources to create, and the constraint is a byproduct of your creativity. And the fill part is asking yourself, "Well, who do I need to become?" So if I'm 100K a year and I wanna make half a million, well, what are the skills you gotta acquire? What are the character traits you have to acquire? What are the, what, what, how do I look at the world? Dude, most of it is beliefs, right? It's the money beliefs. For me, I had to, like, work in the early days of, like, valuing my time. My self-worth was almost zero. When I started off, the reason why I worked 100 hour a week is because I didn't value me.
- CWChris Williamson
But you wanna prove to yourself that you're not a piece of shit.
- DMDan Martell
All of it.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah. And the under-
- DMDan Martell
I was, I'm not enough.
- CWChris Williamson
The subtext that you've been taught from every working class person ever is your value that you add to the world is not your output. It is how hard you work.
- DMDan Martell
And if I wasn't-
- CWChris Williamson
That's the fundamental problem with leverage. You don't understand that you can multiply inputs over outcomes.
- DMDan Martell
Yep. It's not about effort.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah. Mark-
- DMDan Martell
'Cause if it was, if it was hard, if it was about working hard, I would've made a lot of money when I was putting roofs on houses.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mark Groves says, uh, "There are so many people working so hard and achieving so little." That's leverage.
- DMDan Martell
It's beautiful.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- DMDan Martell
So that was like, that was the beliefs, the, the, the traits I had to develop, and that's the fill part. And if you don't do that, you don't actually complete the loop. So some people are really good at auditing their calendar, hiring people, transferring the stuff to them, but then they don't know what they need to do, so they don't evolve, they don't become better, and they literally oscillate. Like-
- CWChris Williamson
So what, what do they do? What do the people who fail at F do?
- DMDan Martell
Uh, they do a lotta stuff. Some of them take time off 'cause they've been burning the candle at both ends. Some of them, um, have vices that they don't even realize are taking them away from becoming better. Uh, I call 'em the five-time assassins. They, um, you know, they get working in the business again. They just kinda move around. It's like a, like-
- CWChris Williamson
That bit's been filled, so I'm-
- DMDan Martell
Yeah, I'm gonna go do this. Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... obsess over website design or something else.
- DMDan Martell
Yeah, yeah. Uh, they launch a new project. They self-sabotage, hand grenades. Psh. It's like why, yeah, why do you need a new website? You just did it 16 months ago. There's like, I don't know, it's, could be better. It's like, yeah, it could be, but is that the right problem to solve?
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- DMDan Martell
So they get, that's why I say distractions has been the biggest destroyer of wealth because they just, they, 'cause the, the, the fallacy is they think they're actually being productive 'cause they're working. That's why the whole like, when people say hustle, I know what they mean. I just don't agree with them 'cause their version of hustle is working a lot. My version of hustle is doing things that scare me. So if you're hustling, it means you're inherently doing something ideally for the first time, cr- a little anxiety, right? I think you should choose goals to grow you. Like I, when I look at opportunity, one of the big filters for which direction I go is, will this teach me some new skills? Will this push me outside my comfort zone? Whereas most people, their hustle list is literally stuff they know how to do and there's nothing hard about it. It's just a lot of time.
- 23:11 – 29:44
Can You Make Business Fun?
- CWChris Williamson
It's interesting, you, you made a passing comment just before about how your, the only constraint to what you put out into the world is your own supply of creativity, essentially. That's so antithetical, I think, to how most people experience life, that they have all of these things and ideas, and sure, probably 80, 95% of them are bullshit and not gonna work, uh, but they don't even have the opportunity to stress test whether they are bullshit or not because they haven't got the ability to deploy it. And a lot of this may be... I, I, I think I would have found this conversation quite triggering 10 years ago. I think that this would have activated inside of me a very puritan, uh, working class mindset. I would've really felt like, "Oh, this is sort of luxurious, chattering class bourgeoisie, so l- it must be nice." I, I would have felt, I think, some of that come up. I would have also felt, "No, these guys don't understand I work harder than them." Um, and, mm-mm, I, that's not true. I definitely work harder than I did 10 years ago. But also, I don't think that that's why people are here. We're not here to work as hard as possible on tasks that we've done 1,000 times before. Uh, that, that doesn't sound fun or cool, and I think it is a...... Fallacy to believe that you can't make running a difficult, complex business fun. Uh, I'm yet to prove it to myself that it's true, but I know enough people that have made it work. But yeah, just to think that, you know, you have all of these, uh, ideas, these dreams, these goals, this sort of creativity deployment, and you don't have the resources to be able to channel that now. And you're just throwing away stuff that presumably would fire you up, that would be really interesting to do. A great opportunity, either for revenue or for life or just for memory dividend, in Bill Perkins language. So you can look back and think, "Oh, do you remember, remember when we did that?" Uh, you know, it made a little bit of money or maybe even sort of netted a little bit of a loss, but God it was cool. It felt so good to do that. And if you don't free up that additional capacity to take ideas into reality, yeah, you're-
- DMDan Martell
You're on the hamster wheel.
- CWChris Williamson
... yeah, you're just throwing them away. And someone else will do them.
- DMDan Martell
I love, I love what you said. Bill's book is one of my favorite. It's like a companion book to my book.
- CWChris Williamson
He's a beast.
- DMDan Martell
Yeah, I want to teach people how to go be rich so they can then die with zero. Um, but I would've... you know, it's funny, I would've had the same response 15 years ago.
- CWChris Williamson
How... What, what would your advice be to the, that person, the me or you 15 years ago who, ugh, you know, they have that sort of antibody immune reaction to this, this odd guilt coming from somewhere?
- DMDan Martell
You're not good enough. I would literally tell me, "Dan, you can have it all. You're not good enough, yet."
- CWChris Williamson
What do you mean by that? Dig into that.
- DMDan Martell
I'd have to tell myself. I would ha- I'd have to jolt myself out of it. Because I would be in the delusion that the harder I work, the better my life's gonna be, the goals are gonna happen. And, and unfortunately, I would just, I would be... and I know what I was selling myself. I was selling this, this pipe dream that, that someday... Like, I used... I was engaged to a woman, and I worked my butt off to create a future for us that she never asked for. And she left. And-
- CWChris Williamson
Because of your absence?
- DMDan Martell
100%. I was so selfish. Told myself a story.
- CWChris Williamson
What was it actually for if it wasn't for her?
- DMDan Martell
The not enough-ness.
- CWChris Williamson
To prove to yourself?
- DMDan Martell
I said it earlier.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah, validation?
- DMDan Martell
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- DMDan Martell
Yeah, that's a-
- CWChris Williamson
That's me. Reflect me.
- DMDan Martell
That's, I mean, that's again, that's just the dark energy we, most young men start with, that we're trying to prove ourselves to our parents, our dads, or whoever. And, you know, recently I was on a hike with one of my friends, and, you know, he, I think he was doing like three million in revenue. He wanted to get to 10, and he's like, you know, he has young family. And he's like, "I'd love to do it. I know how I could do it. I want to do it." I just li- I li- I think to myself, "Well, if I go on the journey to try to get to 10, to then have the freedom to spend time with my kids, I could actua- ... But I have the time now. I don't wanna give it up." And I said, "Oh, no, that, that's not true." He goes, "What do you mean?" I said, "Dude, I love you, man. But I gotta tell you, like, you're just not good enough. You can 100% go for 10 and have more time for your kids." He's like, "What? How?" And I said, "Dude, you're, you see me do it every day. Like, you're my buddy. You, you stay at my house. You see my friends. Like, this is... You're, you're watching me operate." Just look at the difference between how you are literally addicted to your phone. You, you have to be involved in everything. You can't... Y- there's no str- strategy. Everything's from the hip. It's like daily. Like, I wa- I, I literally sit there, and again, I'm a lighthouse, not a tugboat. I will sit back-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- DMDan Martell
... and let him do that. He's still one of my best friends. But don't tell me you wanna do something and then you can't because of this thing, when the truth... And if you admit, like, "I'm just not good enough," then cool. Then hopefully you decide, "How do I get better?"
- CWChris Williamson
What do... Good enough? What do you mean?
- DMDan Martell
You just don't have the skill yet to do that. So you say, "Well, I don't wanna do... If I have to go to 10, I'm gonna give up my time." No, you don't. You just suck.
- CWChris Williamson
What does suck mean and what is the skill?
- DMDan Martell
Suck means you don't understand leverage.
- CWChris Williamson
Right.
- DMDan Martell
You don't understand how to let go. You don't understand how to create a system. You don't know-
- 29:44 – 34:48
How to Avoid Being Deep in the Weeds
- CWChris Williamson
that I learned a particularly bad lesson in this, uh, from running nightclubs. And this is, I guess where changing standards internally within a company, changing expectations with partners and stuff like that, very difficult when it's with partners and outside, um, uh, stakeholders or, or whatever, uh, because you don't get to control their interpretation. But for instance, I've stood on the front door of about a thousand club nights in my career, uh, that's from 9:00 to 11:00-ish until 2:00 to 3:00 in the morning, and then you cash the till. But the reason that we stood there, the reason that we couldn't just outsource this to the boys was 50% that we needed to be able to see what was going on to kind of keep a... That, that's the money maker, right? That really is our skill set. Our skill set is building, designing brands, uh, putting a team together, and then just making sure that the operation on an evening goes well, 'cause it's experiential. Um, but it, it wasn't an unbelievable sort of skill. We could have got someone else in. They could have had some sort of SOP for writing a report. But the real reason that we stood in the front door is that if it's November and it's pissing rain in Newcastle...... and the manager of the venue stood there. You stand next to him. He's miserable, so you're miserable too. And you fucking stand there, and you stand there until 2:00 in the morning, and then you go upstairs and you cash the till with him. And it was this sort of very obvious symbol of, "I am invested in this event. I am working hard." And that, I guess, reinforced to me that there is kind of this, like, peacocking?
- DMDan Martell
Pride? Some people call it pride.
- CWChris Williamson
I- I- I think it was... It's, it's kind of like a, a very costly signal of commitment.
- DMDan Martell
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
That's what you were doing. You were saying, "Hey, I- I almost know that this is fucking pointless, but this is how, how much I care." And we could see, we would know, uh, from other events, other, uh, companies around town, if one of the guys, one of the owners, like us, stopped showing up on the front door and consistently did that for maybe sort of two or three months, we go, "That's- that event's gonna fall off a cliff," because the manager's relationship with the, uh, events company owner is so important. All of the fucking contracts were made of toilet paper in any case-
- DMDan Martell
Didn't matter.
- CWChris Williamson
... so someone could slipstream in and say, "Oh, it's been a little while since, uh, Jerome's been stood on the front door. Are you a little bit worried? Do you think he's really committed? Oh, well we have had numbers down a little bit over the last couple of months." So you were there as this sort of weird buffer that was built into stuff, and that resulted in me spending, you know, 10, between 5,000, 10,000 hours of my life stood on the front door of nightclubs throughout my 20s.
- DMDan Martell
It's one of those things where y- you know, I always go back to, is there a business like mine where somebody owns it and they don't operate it?
- CWChris Williamson
Hmm.
- DMDan Martell
That's where I always go to, first principles. Like, doesn't matter what kinda company I'm in. Is there a business, like mine, in the world where there's an owner who doesn't operate in the business? I- it's very rare that I say- that I hear no. Like, there is one, right? Doesn't matter if it's real. Like, people say you can't make money in restaurants-
- CWChris Williamson
There's fucking tons that do.
- DMDan Martell
They just do. So, so then, then the, then the question should go to, well, how do they do things differently? So, even the idea of having somebody step in on your behalf. So, in my Camcorder Method, one of the philosophies is what is the- what are the five criterias that you've taught somebody to look for that, after they're done the thing, that you could prompt other people to give feedback on as a sensor on how well it did?
- CWChris Williamson
Hmm.
- DMDan Martell
So, I have sensors set up in my companies that report up so that there's thresholds, just like you would do for a production line, where it's like red, green, yellow. And unless it goes to yellow, red, I don't need to know about it, right? So, you could ask yourself, for example, in your situation, what would some of those numbers be? Would it be attendance over time? Would it be some level text message? "Hey, how was the night," you know, feedback? One out of five.
- CWChris Williamson
Complaints, customer complaints.
- DMDan Martell
Exactly. So, so then, 'cause this is the part that broke my heart the first time I realized it, you may have somebody on your team that are gonna get better numbers than you. And I'll tell you, man, just even recently, I have a company I'm involved in that, that coaches software CEOs, biggest in the world, and I hired a CEO to run it. It was actually in Austin in February, I came here, and I, I transitioned, I guess, from the guy to the talent or whatever, and he, he asked me not to come to 98% of everything and just do a 45-minute Q&A. And I went, I did my Q&A, and then they did the NPS score at the end of the event, net promoter score, which is like a customer satisfaction score, and it was the highest we'd ever gotten. That one hurt 'cause, I mean, essentially, uh, the, the business in many ways is an extension of who I am. I was part proud-
- CWChris Williamson
Hmm.
- DMDan Martell
... but I'm not gonna lie, man, it, it really hurt. I was like... And then it made me question where else in my business life am I bottlenecking the team?
- CWChris Williamson
How
- 34:48 – 42:57
Overcoming the Need to Contribute
- CWChris Williamson
can people who say, "Okay, Dan, I, I, I trust that you're not lying to me. I believe that I can overcome my Puritan work ethic from my working class background, but I've got this existential connection to being the guy. I have this sort of need to feel needed and, and, and to contribute and stuff like that." How can people learn to relinquish some of that, uh, existential guilt?
- DMDan Martell
It's beautiful 'cause I actually want them to lean into it. So, I love that people have that. That's- like, if you didn't, you're, you're gonna fail in business, so let's just start with that. So like, the- they've got the right desire, it's just their approach is wrong. So, like most people that are like that, they hire people and they wanna see the person succeed, so they jump in and help them out. Well, you just hired somebody and then did the job for them, so you didn't actually buy back any time. So, how about instead, for example, one of my philosophies is we train, we don't tell. So, if I see something that somebody's doing wrong, if I outsource something or if I give somebody else accountability for something, I just say, "Hey, I used to do this. I no longer do it. You now own it." There's clear ownership. Anytime I see a defect in their work, it didn't get done the way I would've loved to or I would've done it, you write it down and you train them. Why would you do it that way? Well, that way I record the training, so then the next person, if somebody else doesn't work out, they get that training. So, most CEOs, this is, uh, fascinating to me and I gotta get the stats around this, most people spend more time training customers than they ever do training their own internal team. And I mean like training, like sitting down and saying... Like, here's a great example. I was coaching a CEO and he was pissed off at his team. Most CEOs are. And I said, "Can you make a list of everything that frustrates you about your team right now?" And he's like, "Yeah, easy." I said, "Cool, let's write 'em down." And they had top, he had like, "They don't ideate with me in meetings. They're quiet. Uh, they don't care as much as me." I was like, "Well, try to be a little bit more specific." So like, it was a bunch of stuff from like, "Oh, they forget steps. Da da da da da." All right, cool, so you got a list. There was like 13 things. I said, "Cool. Rank order it based on the thing that would make you the most money in your business." So for- like, whatever the value metric is, like what rank order... Like, if this was solved, this would make me the most money and impacts the most people on your team. So like, they don't know how to do email? That was probably everybody in your company.... that would be, and I'm not sure that'd make you the most money, but let's say it's customer service or something. Then I want you to ask yourself, where in your company have you trained your people to do that? And he goes, "Ah, I get it." Said, "Dude, leadership is building leaders. You build the people, the people build the business, buddy." Like, this is... Again, when I say to my friend, "You're not good enough," that's what I mean. As a leader, I love that you have the desire to, like, you know, roll up your sleeves-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- DMDan Martell
... late nights-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- DMDan Martell
... do the work. Awesome. But also, eh, before you do that, ask yourself, "Is this building the machine that runs the machine?" 'Cause like, for example, I had a revenue leader, and his job was to hire somebody to replace him. And it was like, delayed, delayed, delayed. And I asked him why. He said, "Well, I'm too busy coaching the team." I said, "Look, how many hours do you spend coaching your sales team?" He's like, "Oh, probably 15 hours last week." I said, "Well, this is the thing, man. Every hour you do that and not the thing, you're actually not building the machine. So, so you're working against our goals, your goals, your desires, 'cause you wanna roll up into a revenue officer." Like, and he's like, "Oh." I go... And it's so subtle, 'cause like that, he f- of course he felt like he was doing the right thing. But he wasn't, because he didn't understand the problem to solve was, I need to hire a leader-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- DMDan Martell
... to build the machine, to make those people's coaching his problem, so I can move up and take care of the bigger picture. So I love the desire, I just think the execution of the response is flawed.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah, and it's, it's so difficult to let go of, because that hard work mentality-
- DMDan Martell
Is what got you there.
- CWChris Williamson
... bore fruits in the past.
- DMDan Martell
100%.
- CWChris Williamson
You're letting go of a strategy that is proven to work, to try and do a new strategy with a new person that is not proven to work. And it's just existential pain over and over and over. "I'm terrified that this is going to go wrong, terrified that it's going to mess up. It's not going to be as good as me. They don't care as much as me. They haven't got the same-"
- DMDan Martell
They could, they could cost me my business. That, these are real things, and I get where it comes from. The fear of like, they could embarrass me, they could cost me money, they could cost me the whole thing. I get that. I had a guy one time, he was working on site with a client, we were deploying some software. Friday afternoon, he made friends with another guy in the office, and him and that person had some choice words to describe the manager and what they were planning on doing on the weekend, it involved some white stuff.
- CWChris Williamson
Good.
- DMDan Martell
Gets picked up by the firewall, sent to the CTO, kicked back to the manager. They read the chat logs. I get a call. They're, not only are they not moving forward, they're gonna sue me because not moving forward cost delays in their business, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. I think I was like 12 employees. I was just like, "I can't believe my whole company's gonna go down because of one fricking dude." So, luckily I got some good advice from a mentor. He, this is crazy, I'm in Canada, this customer's in New Jersey. He says, "Sunday," he goes, "if, if you wanna show the, the customer or the client that you're serious, you get on a plane, you sh- you be there before they show up." I was so nervous. I'm 25, 26. Suit and tie, get on the plane. (inhales deeply) And luckily they still kicked us off, didn't buy the software, but they decided not to sue us. But that, but again, that was the pain that made me go, "Okay, they buy my standards, not my presence. How do I instill a standard?" How di- what did I do-
- CWChris Williamson
Don't talk about-
- DMDan Martell
... in my recruiting-
- CWChris Williamson
... cocaine on the internal-
- DMDan Martell
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... chat log.
- DMDan Martell
Yeah, like, but I hired the guy.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- DMDan Martell
And I knew he was a little wild, but he was really technically brilliant. But I also know the first time I ever met him, he, like, I looked at him, I go, "That guy's a guy that likes to party." Like, the reason he loved doing what he did is 'cause he liked traveling and getting paid to do it, and every weekend was like a, how can I replicate Vegas kind of situation. So again, I, uh, I think that's the, the big idea. You know, my, my buddy, in regards to the, the, the conflict, you know, my friend Sam said, he goes, um... What did he say there that was so good? He goes, "If you're not contradicting yourself, you're not growing fast enough."
- CWChris Williamson
Hmm.
- DMDan Martell
What got you here won't get you there.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- DMDan Martell
So you have beliefs that you had when you started-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- DMDan Martell
... that you have to redesign, because they're just not gonna support the future.
- 42:57 – 48:17
Knowing When You Need to Change
- CWChris Williamson
of, uh, framework, and I think it's important for us to get people across the line with this, uh, philosophically first, before getting into the tactics.
- DMDan Martell
It's the mindset and beliefs first, and then they'll do the thing.
- CWChris Williamson
I think so. So hopefully we've managed to, uh, erode some of the, uh, uh, blockages that people may have had. I really wanna get like just super-duper-duper tactical. Just before we even get to that, the pain line that you mentioned there, what are the-... warning indicators that you have crossed the pain line threshold?
- DMDan Martell
I mean, it's everything from, being on your phone the whole time you're on vacation, um, having your partner in life, you know, upset at you all the time for being delayed. I mean, I did it all. I mean, so I can... I'm just trying, like, what else did I do? Uh, it's, you know, even, even like, I think 10 years ago, I decided to take on a new project and I didn't talk to my wife, and I... All of a sudden, I was doing calls at eight o'clock to... And we had kids. And she's like, "What are you doing?" Like, "You, you've, you hadn't done this in years."
- CWChris Williamson
Oh, it started a new thing.
- DMDan Martell
And I never talked to her about it. And, and, and like, so like over the years, I've just like, oh, that's, that's a symptom. Um, not having space to think, not having space for yourself. I think a lot of people, again, they don't... There's no self-worth, so they'll start sacrificing their workout, sacrificing their routine, sacrificing the, the, the, the resets, the recharges, right?
- CWChris Williamson
Oh, this is noble.
- DMDan Martell
Yeah. Again, it's like, um, they're taking...
- CWChris Williamson
This is what builders do.
- DMDan Martell
They're taking... They're dying on the sword and it's like, no, you, you just suck, like, it's actually not the way to do it. You just, you just don't know how, 'cause I can show you, I can... I wrote about it and I can introduce you to people, and Richard Branson is a big inspiration for me watching this guy like literally just live life and also run billion-dollar companies. So, it's possible, you just need to learn the skill set. Um, but the symptoms are just overwhelmed, but... And physically, dude, I, I work with a lot of people, I talk about in my book, one of my clients, Stewart, he had like, um, he got shingles, like even physical response. Have you ever gotten shingles?
- CWChris Williamson
No. What is it?
- DMDan Martell
Shingles, I got them once. I had this, this, this spot into my back. It was like red and kind of patchy and it hurt when I touched it, and I went to my doctor, Aaron, and said, uh, "I got this thing," and he showed it to me. He goes, "Oh." He goes, "What's go..." He goes, "You stressed out?" I said, "No, man, things are awesome," you know? He goes, "What's, what's going on in your life?" I said, "Well, just closed a new round for my company, so we closed about a million and a half bucks. Uh, oh, we're having a baby. My wife's pregnant, just found out, and, uh, oh, we decided to move back to Canada." And he goes, "One sec." He leaves, he goes, gets this, this, this pill box or whatever, and then he goes and he pulls up Google and he s- types and he goes, "This is what it was about to look like." Shingles, it's attached to your nervous system and it literally is your body's response to stress. So there's physical, uh, adrenal fatigue. Some people have that. If you've never felt that, it's literally like you're drunk all the time, or hungover, sorry.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- DMDan Martell
You're hungover all the time, but you can't... You, it's like you don't know why. Um, anxiety attacks, that's a big one that a lot of the women typically have. I mean, so there's... As much as like I used to be the guy that was like positive mental attitude, mindset, put... Like can deal-
- CWChris Williamson
Leaning harder.
- DMDan Martell
Oh man, I... Give it to me.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- DMDan Martell
Not like... I'd ra- I literally would say to myself, "I'd rather die. I'd ra- like, give it... I'm not gonna stop, I'd rather die."
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
- DMDan Martell
So, so either the world gets easier or I'm gonna just die, and that's... At least I figured out where my, my edges are. Um, so I just think if anybody feels that, that's the pain line. We're... And really, it's just asking yourself if you, you know, tripled your business over the next three months, what would break? 'Cause most people, they couldn't even absorb opportunity 'cause of the way they built it.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm. So, saying no to things that should be yeses because there's just no spare capacity for you or the team or whatever.
- DMDan Martell
Yeah, that email from a friend that wants to make an intro to the guy that could probably add a zero to your revenue and you... It's... You don't even know you're doing this, you're just slow. You put... You, you start, unsto- you know what I mean? You... Then one day after the gym, on a Saturday afternoon, you're sitting down to do your emails, you're feeling good about yourself and you reply two weeks later, and the person's like, "Yeah, we already went a different direction." It's so subtle that most people wouldn't even know they're doing it.
- CWChris Williamson
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- 48:17 – 58:20
Tactics to Focus Your Time Better
- CWChris Williamson
Okay, so what are the principles here? Someone has realized that they've crossed the pain line, they're in that threshold, they're saying no to things that they should be saying yes to, they don't have time to think, maybe they're feeling more stressed and-
- DMDan Martell
Let's get, let's get tactical.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- DMDan Martell
Like I just love it. I, I, I can go to the extreme. So the extreme where I live is I don't do anything that I don't love to do, uh, that requires my unique skill set or spend time with people I love. That's like... I, when I say I don't do anything, I'm talking about I don't put gas in my car, I don't pack my bags when I travel, I don't like... It's obno- People... If you wanna talk about luxury vibes-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- DMDan Martell
... and beliefs, I'll, I'll, I'll piss you off.
- CWChris Williamson
I think you and Bill Perkins would compete with each other.
- DMDan Martell
Yeah, no, that's why I love Bill's stuff. We've messaged each other on Instagram, and I l- I've reached out to him to do something and he's like, "I'd love to do it, but reach out to me closer to the date because I don't schedule 'cause I wrote a-"
- CWChris Williamson
He doesn't know where he's gonna be. Him and-
- DMDan Martell
He literally said... I wrote a book about it, so I'm-
- CWChris Williamson
Fucking Dan Bilzerian is the same, man.
- DMDan Martell
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
I try and, I try and schedule that guy in and he's like, "When, when is it?" And I'm like, "Three weeks." And he goes, "I don't know what I'm doing in three weeks." I'm like, "Bro, it's three weeks away."
- DMDan Martell
Yeah. It's AP- I call them APIs. The software, it's an API, it's the interface. So, so what you see with these people is they, they say, "Here's my interface-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- DMDan Martell
... and connect into it."... but I don't change my process for the external world.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah, there you go.
- DMDan Martell
So that's on the extreme. On the, the entry level is simple stuff like, you know, not running so many errands. Like, it sounds subtle, but, like, using apps to, to, to bring stuff to you, um-
- CWChris Williamson
Like a Postmates, an Uber Eats.
- DMDan Martell
Just everything. Yeah, like, just understand what your value of your time is and then-
- CWChris Williamson
Whole Foods through Amazon Prime.
- DMDan Martell
Yeah, and it requires a little bit of planning. Uh, I would say, you know, m- meal prep could be one if you spend a lot of time on meal prep and you wanna have your fitness on. Uh, cleaning, that's a big one, right? J- I mean, at one time, literally, so I had a co-founder in one of my companies, Ethan, and we had just gone through a major, like, setback. And I call him up and I'm like, "It's Saturday morning. We gotta get to the office, whiteboard the solution. Like, it's do or die." And he's like, "I'll be there around 3:00. I gotta do laundry." As politely as I possibly could, I was like, "You cross in front of six wash 'n folds on your way to the office, and you make 80 grand a year. Stop. Like, I'm gonna shut up now before I say something I can't take back."
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- DMDan Martell
And he's like, "Heard." I was like, "Good." Like, but I mean, again, that's, those are kinda the silly things that people-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- DMDan Martell
... they do, right?
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah, you don't think about it. And th- there is this, this sort of degree of nobility. Again, something else that will be sort of triggering people in the comment, like, it, uh, h- house, you know, full of yourself would you need to be to get someone to come and be a chef for you, or to do your laundry, or to do the gardening, or to clean the house? Like, who am I?
- DMDan Martell
Put gas in your car. You're an asshole.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- DMDan Martell
I'm, I'm okay. That's cool.
- 58:20 – 1:11:04
Dan’s Inbox Management Process
- DMDan Martell
- CWChris Williamson
Just downstream from that actually, when it comes to email, w- what's the process from there? You know, y- you are this complex decision engine.
- DMDan Martell
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
No one fully knows whether you're going to say yes or no to a particular thing. What is your step-by-step inbox management triage?
- DMDan Martell
My f- you're talking my love language right now. I will give you the goods. So here's the concept, is, you know, in your inbox, even if you get 1,000 emails a day, 5,000 e- Like there's- there's certain things that are just- don't require immediate attention, right? So- so what I like to do is, you know, even before you hire somebody, just go start setting up some rules, right? So like there's- in every email tool there's filters, and you could set one up for just newsletters and say, "Anything with the unsubscribe link, put it in this folder. Set a task every Friday for 45 minutes to process," and that way you go in there, you scan through, you read the ones you wanna r- Like that could be a beginning start.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- DMDan Martell
Um, and then what I do is I have seven folders. So the big idea for me is all companies I'm involved in, if I have different domains in my Gmail, they all go to one spot. So I have all mail goes into my primary inbox, and then what I have within there is a label in Gmail or a folder in Outlook that is...
- CWChris Williamson
Wh- That's what you're using? You're using Gmail?
- DMDan Martell
I use Gmail to do all this and I-
- CWChris Williamson
Gmail Web?
- DMDan Martell
Yeah, I've tried Front. Like Front app was- I went there for a bit, but, um, 'cause it does some cool routing task stuff, but we went back.
- CWChris Williamson
Superhuman?
- DMDan Martell
Uh, Superhuman, I don't know if it has this feature. I'm assuming it does. What I love about Gmail is the delegated access. So I can give access to my assistant and her assistant, 'cause she's that busy, um, without giving them password to my Gmail, 'cause my Gmail is essentially-
- CWChris Williamson
Everything.
- DMDan Martell
... vulnerable. Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- DMDan Martell
You just ... There's certain things, attack vectors you just don't wanna do.
- CWChris Williamson
Yep.
- DMDan Martell
And, um, so then the folders are my folder, Dan!Dan Martell, and then that's where my phone goes to. When I open up my email on my phone, it goes to that folder. Okay? So I never, ever, and this is the hardest part. I remember when I first did it, I just kept checking, kept checking, right?
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- DMDan Martell
Again, you teach people how to treat you. So if you hire an assistant and tell her to manage the inbox and then you keep checking and replying whenever it's a weekend or whatever, then she's gonna go, "Well, if I just wait long enough, Chris or Dan's gonna reply to," you know? So that was a hard one. Um, and then what I do after that, and these are the- the- the- There's seven, the other ones are like finance, anything, you know, financial-related, reporting, all my updates. I want that in one spot, it's easy to find. But the big one is, uh, responded, to respond, and review. Okay? So what happens is email comes in ... And this is what- Richard Branson showed me how to do this, where essentially every morning he ran his- his ... Everybody that needed anything from him went through Helen, his assistant. She's still with him now. I think it's 16 years she's been with him. She travels with him, I'm assuming still, and they would just have breakfast. And essentially she would only bring to him things that she didn't know how to deal with. But again, she's been there for that long, everybody knows her, she knows his preferences, so 99.2% of the stuff she just moved forward and they routed, right? And this is like- The concept of routing is actually financially a very important decis- like strategy. You know, uh, what's his name? The CEO, the previous CEO, Eric Schmidt from Google talked about it. He said, "My job as CEO is to route." Email comes in, pfft, go. Like he just needs it sent to right person. So the review folder is only the things that my assistant doesn't know how to deal with.And then we have a daily meeting where she r- she literally talks to me. She's like, "Chris, email," dah, dah, dah. "He wants to do this." Dah. And, "I don't know should we do it this date or that date?" And I say, "Well, in the future, this is the principle. What would you do?" See, I'm teaching, right? So I use the review folder to actually teach my thinking behind the... 'Cause if not, then you're telling somebody-
- CWChris Williamson
You're doing that in person or video?
- DMDan Martell
Phone. I try to do it over phone 'cause I'm always in commute.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- DMDan Martell
Right? I don't wanna have to be in front of a laptop.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- DMDan Martell
Um, and honestly, these-
- CWChris Williamson
So as that's coming into your assistant, they're making notes. They're saying-
- DMDan Martell
Yeah. They-
- CWChris Williamson
... "In future, when X, then Y."
Episode duration: 2:34:36
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Transcript of episode eZF_7_tjepU
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