EVERY SPOKEN WORD
150 min read · 30,046 words- 0:00 – 0:37
Intro
- LHLewis Howes
The problem I wanna solve is helping people overcome self-doubt, because I believe self-doubt is the killer of all of our dreams. When we doubt ourselves, we can have all the talent, we can have all the people encouraging us around us, but if we don't believe, it's gonna be hard to accomplish what we want. Well, I wanna rid the world of self-doubt. (wind blowing)
- CWChris Williamson
Lewis Howes, welcome to the show.
- LHLewis Howes
My man. Thanks for having me. (hands clap)
- CWChris Williamson
My pleasure, dude.
- LHLewis Howes
You're, you're even better looking in person, even though you look good on screen, too.
- CWChris Williamson
For the people that-
- LHLewis Howes
You look jacked on screen, you know?
- CWChris Williamson
Thank you. Well, for the people that are just listening, we did actually decide that we're gonna dress the same.
- LHLewis Howes
Twinsies.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah, it's cute.
- LHLewis Howes
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
Uh, thank you for coming to Austin to see me.
- LHLewis Howes
Thanks, brother. Thanks for having me, man.
- 0:37 – 6:23
What People Misunderstand about Greatness
- LHLewis Howes
- CWChris Williamson
What do you think most people misunderstand about greatness?
- LHLewis Howes
Most people go for success, and they realize that it's not the thing that's gonna bring them the most fulfillment. Success is a selfish game, something I played for 30 years. And there's nothing wrong with success. I think success is fine, but when we just chase success by itself, it's really about me. Look at me winning, succeeding, accomplishing, making money, getting the awards. This is a, this is a me game, and I played that game for a long time. And it worked. I got results. I got things, money, opportunities, success. But it didn't solve the, uh, the heart game. It didn't solve the game of, how do I feel about me? Chasing the success and winning or earning never felt enough still. So, I was doing it from a wound. And I think people... Again, there's nothing wrong with it, but I just think that greatness is different than success in the terms that greatness is a we game, success is a me game. And greatness includes going after what you want, but really making an impact on the people around you and empowering and lifting others up and helping them succeed and win, too. When it's just me versus the world, I just think that's a lonely game.
- CWChris Williamson
I would agree. There's a, a, a quote from our mutual friend, Alex Hormozi, that got me thinking, quite a while ago, about the tension between success and the desire to feel like enough. So, I'm gonna-
- LHLewis Howes
Yes.
- CWChris Williamson
... give you, read this out to you. "Success is a strange thing. Presumably, we want success because we think a more successful life will bring us more happiness, meaning, and fulfillment. Here's the problem. We sacrifice the thing we want, happiness, for the thing which is supposed to get it, success. Failure can make you miserable, but I'm not sure that success will make you happy."
- LHLewis Howes
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
"One of the most common dynamics I see amongst high performers is this. Parents want their child to do well. Parents encourage their child to do well by praising when they succeed and criticizing when they fail. The child learns that praise and admiration is contingent on succeeding."
- LHLewis Howes
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
"That lesson metastasizes through early adulthood into, 'I am only worthy of love, acceptance, and belonging if I succeed.' Now, powered by internal feelings of insufficiency, this person is driven to achieve many things. They're prepared to out-work, out-hustle, and out-suffer everyone else because they're not just running toward a life they want. They're running away from a life that they fear."
- LHLewis Howes
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
"Success and progress ameliorates the feelings of insufficiency. Therefore, success and progress have become prioritized above everything else."
- LHLewis Howes
Yeah, and it's interesting because, um, Sara Blakely, who just sold her company Spanx for, I think, 1.2 billion, um, when I asked her about dealing with failure and how to overcome this fear of failure, she said that when she was growing up, her dad would have the family have dinner every night together, and he would ask the same question every night at dinner, "What did you fail at today?" And he would actually celebrate the failures, and he would encourage them, and they would actually get in trouble if they didn't have something to share about what they failed at that day. And she said that that framing around failure not being a bad thing, but actually a thing that helps you get feedback on how to get better, was the thing that was celebrated. You tried something. That's an awesome thing that you did this today. Not only praising when you succeed, but also praising that you tried, you put effort in, you had a good attitude. You failed at something meant you had courage. You weren't trying to look perfect. And keeping the failure up only means you're gonna succeed. You played sports growing up, right? You and I know that the only way to succeed was through failure. You know, Michael Jordan missed 50% of his shots. The best baseball players in the world failed 70% of the time, and they were the best. They missed 70% of the time. And we celebrate them for their successes, but they also failed a ton, ton more than they succeeded. And I think, um, in athletics, we were taught that, you know, failure is just feedback. It's a part of the process on how you succeed. I saw this m- this meme, I don't know, a few years ago online about a (laughs) it was a meme of, like, a baby kind of, like, wobbling and f- and falling over. And the meme said, "A child, when learning to walk, falls a thousand times and never thinks to himself, 'Maybe this walking thing isn't for me.'" He just keeps getting up and trying again until he figures out how to walk. And I think if we can take that approach on everything, like, "Okay, I'm just gonna fall a thousand times, but eventually I'm gonna walk," and I'm not gonna think, "This isn't for me," but a lot of the times we, we stop after one fail today. You know, we stop after one try, and it didn't work out because we got judged or criticized by someone.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah, certainly a healthy relationship with failure-
- LHLewis Howes
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
... I think, and reframing that. One of the problems that you have in the modern world is this asymmetry between what we see of everybody else and what we see of ourselves-
- LHLewis Howes
Yes.
- CWChris Williamson
... right? And you don't really get to see the... You get to see the grand failures of people, you know, the bankruptcies-
- LHLewis Howes
Yes.
- CWChris Williamson
... and the, the house going up in flame and the very public-
- LHLewis Howes
Being canceled.
- CWChris Williamson
... marriage. Yeah.
- LHLewis Howes
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
You, you, you see all of the divorces. You see all of that. What you don't see are the ones that I think are actually a little bit more ruthless because it's death by a thousand cuts, the way that they made a promise to themselves that-
- LHLewis Howes
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
... they weren't gonna hit snooze this week, and yet they did on a morning.
- LHLewis Howes
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
Or the fact that there was a cookie left out from last night, and they decided to have it for fucking breakfast. Like, "Why do you have it for breakfast?"
- LHLewis Howes
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
"Oh, well, it was there, and I'm sorry." And... Yeah.
- 6:23 – 10:30
Learning Positivity from an Injured Veteran
- CWChris Williamson
the story about Jason Redman.
- LHLewis Howes
(sighs) Have you interviewed him yet?
- CWChris Williamson
No.
- LHLewis Howes
Oh, he's amazing, man. It's inspiring. Um, (smacks lips) he was, uh... Yeah, he's a, he's an inspiring guy who was at war. And, um, he essentially got in crossfire. He was supposed to come home, like, a week or two later, but was deployed and, and had, um... He was supposed to come from- home for Halloween, I think, in a couple of weeks, and he was gonna be done with his deployment. But he had one final mission, and he got in this crossfire where he essentially got shot in the face, got shot in the body, got shot everywhere, and, uh, lights out. Woke up unconscious, trying to figure out where he was. Eventually got evacuated from the location he was in, and he was in a hospital. And was kind of in and out of consciousness, and as he woke up and heard one time, there were some doctors or nurses or people talking in the room, talking about how, "Oh, man. This is- this doesn't look good. This is not gonna end well." And, uh, "This guy's face is blown off. He's got no nose. He's got the side of his head blown off." You know, "His body's really damaged. Shot in the side multiple times," all these things. (smacks lips) And he, like, in a moment of consciousness, he heard this, and when he finally was able to communicate, he was just like, "This type of language cannot enter my room. This type of communication cannot enter me; otherwise, I would not get better." And he ended up writing this declaration, uh, this sign that he put on the outside of the room that said something like, "Whoever enters this room, you must enter with joy, peace, positivity, love, and service. Any type of negative attitude does not work for me. Uh, so you only enter this room if you believe in positivity, joy, and a full recovery. And I will recover to the my- best of my ability, and then 20% farther beyond that because I'm so mentally tough. But if anyone brings negativity in here, it's gonna o- only hurt me, so please do not enter." (smacks lips) I'm paraphrasing the actual quote, but that was the, uh, synopsis of it. And, um, he had this amazing recovery, and I think it's the more, the, the attitude and the mindset once something tragic happens to us really determines how the rest of our life goes. A lot of us have experienced trauma, pain, whether it be a huge trauma or just death by a million cuts, microtraumas, but it's how we interpret it and the meaning we give those, those events that really dictate how much peace and harmony we have after those things. So he's just an amazing example of... And again, he's still on a healing journey, but his attitude, his energy, his effort towards recovery and healing, and taking care of his mind is what's really inspiring.
- CWChris Williamson
That is the single sort of unifying criteria between most of the people I find that's successful.
- LHLewis Howes
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
That, you know, they all seem to be able to deal with setbacks-
- LHLewis Howes
Yes.
- CWChris Williamson
... with difficulties, with challenges.
- LHLewis Howes
Yeah. It's Man's Search for Meaning. It's Viktor Frankl, uh, which is probably the best example of this. The- if you haven't read the book yet, I recommend everyone checking it out. I mean, how can a man who goes through so much extreme trauma around him, with thousands of people dying around him in a concentration camp, live a happy life after he gets out? How is that even possible? And he was able to create new meaning from the memory, from the wounds, from the traumas. And whatever we go through, if we hold onto any type of pain around that wound, then every time we feel abandoned, taken ac- uh, taken advantage of or triggered, we are going to react. And I'm not saying it's not justified. Uh, it, it could be justified, but is it useful? Is reacting with anger and negativity, stress, overwhelm, is it useful towards living a beautiful life, like Alex Hormozi talked about? Is it useful towards happiness, joy, abundance? Is it useful towards having more energy towards the mission we're on? And again, I'm not saying it's easy, but it's not useful to hold onto that meaning in a negative way.
- 10:30 – 21:10
How to Find Your Personal Mission
- LHLewis Howes
- CWChris Williamson
So the primary takeaway is a man who has a strong enough why can bear any how, right? From Man's Search for Meaning.
- LHLewis Howes
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
How do people find their why or their mission?
- LHLewis Howes
(smacks lips) (sighs) It took me a while to figure it out. But I think there's a- there's an exercise you can play with to start trying. For me, it's, it's first b- facing yourself and realizing that there are stuff that you might need to heal. There might be some wounds that you need to heal and being on that journey. We could talk about that later. But once you're on that journey and you're trying to figure out what is this mission for this season of life, it doesn't need to be, "I need to change the world or cure cancer or something crazy," but figure out where you're at right now. When I was 23, 24, I was on my sister's couch for about a year and a half. In that season of life, I couldn't think beyond just trying to find how to make enough money to get my own apartment. I couldn't think beyond that. I wasn't like, "I wanna go change the world. I wanna go do something crazy." I was like, "I just need to survive and get my own life together." So I had a season of life where that was my mission. But I was clear, "I need to figure out how to make enough money to get an apartment and get on my own." Then once I accomplished that mission, I could think beyond that. I could explore, "What is it that I want right now?" And when we're in that exploratory phase of not- uh, of trying to get clear on our mission, think about the three Ps. The first one is your passion, and this may sound kind of lame or whatever, but I really feel like when you're interested and curious about something, you're more willing to deal with the stress and the adversity that comes your way than if you're not interested or curious. So figure out what you're really passionate about and ask yourself those questions about curiosity. Lean into that. The second P is, um...... the, the power that you already have. Now, when I was on my sister's couch, I didn't think I had any talents. I didn't think I had any power. I was... Just got finished playing arena football, which wasn't even good enough to play the NFL, so I was making 250 bucks a week. I didn't have a college degree yet. I was one of the lowest in my... In every grade in school, so I didn't think I had talent. But you really got to assess, like, what are the invisible talents that you might have? An invisible talent was, I was really good at connecting with people one-on-one. I was really good at seeing things, organizing ideas, uh, setting goals and accomplishing them. But I didn't think that I could make money from it. But I just assessed my talents with my power. And the second part of the, the power is figuring out what makes you feel the most powerless. In my early 20s, I had a lot of false confidence. You know, I was athletic or whatever and thought I knew a lot, but really, I knew nothing. And I acted as if I was confident, but I was really an insecure, scared little boy inside. And so, I went through a period of assessing all my fears. I created a fear list, and it was a long list. Um, but one by one, I started going all in on these fears and making them a superpower, making the thing that made me feel the most powerless, the least amount of confidence in myself, I started overcoming them one by one. Public speaking was a big one, learning how to salsa dance was a big one, learning an instrument, all these different things that would create emotional humiliation, right? Social humiliation, for me, was a big fear. Judgment was my biggest fear. And so, by going all in on those things and actually overcoming them, they gave me a new skill, a new power, and actually more confidence because then I overcame the thing that I was the most afraid of. And so, whatever it is in your life right now, create a list of your fears and start making those your talents, not insecurities anymore. So, that's the second P, is the power. The third one, I really believe this is when you step more from success into greatness, is when you find a problem that you want to solve, the third P. So, if you're in a discovery phase of, like, "What is my mission? What is meaningful to me?" What is the thing you want to solve in the world or for this season of life? And when we do that, we feel more in service. We feel, we feel more useful when we're solving a problem. If it's a problem we don't care about and we're- we have, uh, a curiosity and a, and a, and a power around something, but we do it towards a problem we don't care about, it just becomes less meaningful. Doesn't mean we can't be successful or make money at a business. But if I was gonna go solve a problem of, I don't know, um, nail polish remover and go start a company, it just... I'm sure I could do it, but it's not useful and it's not a problem for me, right? So, it's figuring out, what is the thing? For me, the problem I want to solve is helping people overcome self-doubt, because I believe self-doubt is the killer of all of our dreams. When we doubt ourselves, we can have all the talent, we can have all the people encouraging us around us, but if we don't believe, it's gonna be hard to accomplish what we want. That's why I want to rid the world of self-doubt, help people have a new relationship and manage it, because I feel like that is gonna give them the courage to act on what they do, what they want to do. And I know you've heard a lot of people come to you and say, "Oh, you know, Chris, I've had an idea for launching a podcast for five years or for writing a book for 10 years. I've had this idea to launch a company for so long," but they don't have the courage to act. It's 'cause they doubt. And at the center of these three fears, the fear of failure, success, and judgment, is this doubt that I am not enough. And when we can get to the root of that, we can start to figure out how to overcome it, how to heal it. And again, solving the problem, finding these three Ps, the passion, the power, and the problem you wanna solve, will give you a sense of like, "Okay, here's a direction I wanna start going towards." And some people might say, "Well, I don't know what problem to solve." A buddy of mine, Rory Vaden, says that we are perfectly positioned to help the person we once were. So, if you had lost 50 pounds and you overcame this problem, or if you got out of debt, or if you figured out how to do relationships but struggled for a long time, you're perfectly positioned to help that person that you once were in the world. So, start evaluating with these three Ps in order to find your meaningful mission.
- CWChris Williamson
One of the easiest things that you can do if you want to, uh, alchemize suffering into something useful, if you want to transcend it, is to take the things that you've been through, the challenges-
- LHLewis Howes
Yes.
- CWChris Williamson
... that you've been through, and then teach other people how to avoid the pitfalls or expedite the successes.
- LHLewis Howes
Yeah. Avoid the pain or, or get to the result faster.
- CWChris Williamson
Yes, precisely. And it's because you get to point at whatever caused the problem to you, you know, the childhood bullying, or the bad relationship with your parents, or the heartbreak at the age of 18, or the financial misery that you were through, whatever, whatever the problem was that you occurred, right? And you get to point at it retrospectively-
- LHLewis Howes
(laughs) Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... and say-
- LHLewis Howes
Point at yourself, yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... "Not only did you not get me, but you're not gonna get anybody else either."
- LHLewis Howes
Exactly.
- CWChris Williamson
"And I'm going to help." And that's one of the... It, it's a really easy thing, or a, a strange thing, actually, to do because being in service is something that we're told a lot of the time is transcendent. It makes everybody feel better. I- i- i- it's something that you, you know, the absolute top self-actualization of Maslow's hierarchy of needs, but then the one above that would then be service. It would be, okay, not only if you actualize, but then you open back out into the world. And you think, "Well, that sounds great, but, like, I, I... Where do I start?"
- LHLewis Howes
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
Like, "Do you want me to go to a soup kitchen?"
- LHLewis Howes
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
"What am I supposed to do?" And I do think-
- LHLewis Howes
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... that looking at the pains that you've been through in your life as an identifier of if you went through it, there's probably a lot of other people that will as well.
- LHLewis Howes
Yes.
- CWChris Williamson
You are, by definition of having lived it, an expert in this particular field.
- LHLewis Howes
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
Especially if you've done some introspection and a little bit of-
- LHLewis Howes
Yes.
- CWChris Williamson
... self-work around it. Use that opportunity to help people that have been through or are going through what you went through.... to avoid the pain in future, in their life.
- LHLewis Howes
Exactly. There's a good ex- example I talk about in the book with, uh, Robert Greene. I don't know if you had him on yet.
- CWChris Williamson
I haven't.
- 21:10 – 33:38
Discovering the Source of Your Self-Doubt
- CWChris Williamson
three big fears that are kind of wrapped around the self-doubt-
- LHLewis Howes
Yes.
- CWChris Williamson
... conversation here. Self-doubt-
- LHLewis Howes
Fear of failure, success, and judgment.
- CWChris Williamson
Yep.
- LHLewis Howes
Yep.
- CWChris Williamson
How can someone do a post-mortem on their self-doubt? How can they-
- LHLewis Howes
Oh, man.
- CWChris Williamson
... analyze where their negative self-talk and lack of self-belief is coming from?
- LHLewis Howes
Man, one of the hardest things I've ever done is just look myself in the mirror and say, "Do I recognize who I am?" And ask myself, "Who am I?" And really take a look and say, "What are the things that are holding me back emotionally and psychologically? What are the biggest fears and doubts that I have?" And it was hard to face this 10 years ago, and I've faced it many times since then.
- CWChris Williamson
How old are you now?
- LHLewis Howes
I'm gonna be 40 in two, three weeks.
- CWChris Williamson
Cool.
- LHLewis Howes
Yeah. So I kind of started this journey right around 29 of the school of greatness and just kind of overcoming myself from not feeling happy. Getting success, but not feeling fulfilled. And it's been a journey of allowing myself to be a beginner constantly and saying, "Okay, I'm gonna get feedback from as many different types of experts, therapists, healing individuals as possible to see what I can do to break through from the self that does not serve my highest self." So it's been a 10-year journey of healing and recognizing. And when I think I've figured it out, I'm humbled, and my ego is, uh, shattered over and over again. So now I just try to stay as humble as possible and say, "I, I don't know anything and I'm always a beginner." I have wisdom, but there's always a lot more to learn. Just like I think you do really well with your show, I think it's a beautiful thing. But again, going back to creating a list of all my insecurities was a big thing that helped me because that was the place where I was most reactive. I... 10 years ago, I had a belief, an identity that was unhealthy, that I was based on results in how I would respond and react. I was angry, I was frustrated. I would get, you know, depressed at times. I wasn't in a depressive state where I wanted to commit suicide, but I would be in my room for a week at a time kind of in a depressed state.
- CWChris Williamson
Based on results? What sort of results?
- LHLewis Howes
(sighs) Based on how I would react in situations. I would react with anger when I was triggered.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- LHLewis Howes
I would get depressed when something didn't work out for me. And I would tell myself over and over internally and externally that I'm stupid, that I'm such an idiot. "I can't believe I made that mistake. What a dummy." I would say these words. So I was my own worst critic based on how I showed up. And 10 years ago, I created a new contract with myself. I started to have a lot of breakdowns in my life, and I went to a, an emotion intelligence leadership event that kind of kicked off my journey of healing and trying different healing modalities. And in this experience, I created a new contract. I was able to see and face myself and realize the narration I've been having with myself and to others about me has not served my happiness. If we recorded the things that we said to ourselves consistently and played it on a loudspeaker, they'd probably put us in a mental institution for most people.And if we said the things that we say to ourselves to our, our lovers and our best friends, they probably wouldn't be our friends. So it was creating a healthy identity with myself. I didn't know what that meant. I thought I worked hard and I was disciplined, I could out-train people, I could work hard, what all these things. But I couldn't... I didn't learn to accept and love myself, but also not be complacent. Right? How do you accept and love who you are and want to continue to grow to be more? So I created a new contract. Instead of being angry, depressed, and stupid, which was the results I was creating in my life based on the narration and the identity I had with myself, I created a new contract that I literally wrote down and said aloud and signed to myself on a piece of paper. And I said, "I am a loving, passionate, wise man." This is not a mantra to just speak into the mirror constantly. This is a new belief that I had to step into and become. And I had to create something for myself that was authentic, not a lie. I knew I was a loving guy, but I had anger inside of me. So I had to figure out how to get to the root of letting go of anger. But I knew there was love inside of me. I knew I was passionate, but I had a lot of kind of depressed energy as well that I was holding on to. So I had to learn how to get rid of that. I didn't think I was smart. I didn't believe I was smart because I was in the bottom of my class all through school, dyslexic growing up. It's very hard to read and write in general. So saying the word smart would have actually been a lie to me. I can't lie to myself. But I did think I was wise. I was like, "I have street smarts. I have wisdom from, from different experiences." And I believed I was wise. And so I said, "I'm a loving, passionate, wise man." And I, and I had to do a couple of things. It wasn't just shouting this as affirmation. As Goggin says, it's not something you do and just get better. I had to act accordingly every moment of every day to be those things. I had to create and reaffirm those things through my actions consistently, then I became them and I believed them more. Until, you know, letting go of the anger, depression, and the feeling stupid left me. It took time to integrate, but that practice of creating a new contract was huge for me.
- CWChris Williamson
Do you think that beliefs or action comes first?
- LHLewis Howes
Well, here's the thing, a lot of people can take action and still not believe. You know, I was, uh, I was in eighth grade playing basketball and I was watching the varsity, uh, team play, and sometimes I'd practice with them because I was taller. And there was this athlete who was the freakiest-looking athlete that I've ever seen in my life. Had a 45-inch vertical, could dunk at will at any moment, just ran into the rim and just 360 tomahawk jam it, could score at will, was one of the smoothest basketball players I've ever seen. He took the action, he put in the reps, he worked hard, all those things happened, but he didn't believe in himself. And it's interesting, everyone was like, "You're, you're like a god out here. You can do anything in practice." But when the games came, he didn't believe. So he had the talent, he put in the reps, all those things, but he still didn't believe in himself. And here's the thing, it doesn't matter if... It really doesn't matter if the world believes in us. If we don't learn to believe in ourselves, we may not create the results we want. But on the flip side, what is cool, it doesn't matter if the world's against us. If we learn to overcome it and believe in ourselves, we can do some amazing things. So there's a combination that once you take the action, you still have to learn to believe. And when we have that negative script constantly running, I think it, it's hard to overcome ourselves with that identity.
- CWChris Williamson
It's hard to overcome the negative script without any evidence that suggests the otherwise, though, right?
- LHLewis Howes
100%. Yeah, you can't fake it.
- CWChris Williamson
Correct. Yeah. Asking for confidence without competence is delusion.
- LHLewis Howes
Yes.
- CWChris Williamson
But having competence without confidence is what I call imposter adaptation. So-
- LHLewis Howes
Or wasted talent. Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Well, the, the, the... You have to-
- LHLewis Howes
You got all this talent, but then you don't take action.
- CWChris Williamson
You have to accept that after a while, if you continue to disprove all of the concerns and imposter syndrome that you have internally by succeeding in the real world, if every single time that you are faced with a challenge you overcome it, and yet your imposter syndrome still persists, you have to admit to yourself it's got nothing to do with your competence-
- LHLewis Howes
Yes.
- 33:38 – 40:38
Turn Fear of Failure into Action
- LHLewis Howes
- CWChris Williamson
What's the fear to conversion toolkit?
- LHLewis Howes
For me, it's really transforming your thoughts, your behaviors and actions into congruency and in harmony with moving forward towards your meaningful mission. Because a lot of fear holds us back from acting, the fear of failure, success or judgment. So we don't act because we don't believe we're going to get the results, or we believe something bad will happen. And at the, the core root of this fail- uh, fear of failure is, "I'm not enough." And so what we can convert that into knowing, "I am enough." Maybe I'm not where I want to be. Maybe I'm not as good as I want to be. Maybe I've made mistakes. Maybe I've messed up. Maybe I've hurt people. Maybe people have hurt me. Accepting the past and learning how to accept it, and say, "Okay, I'm not happy with where I am, but I can learn to accept who I am." Not beating myself up anymore. And start going all in on my fears until these fears start to disappear. When we can convert it into saying, "I am enough," and actually realizing it, which I think is one of the hardest things. That's why people lack confidence. That's why they beat themselves up. What's- why they harm themselves. That's why they go on antidepressants, 'cause they don't feel enough. So it's really learning the skill of feeling and believing we are enough where we are, and also not being complacent and not giving effort to improving and growing. It's both and, accepting where we are and saying, "I'm also going to take massive, consistent, imperfect action to improve over time." When I think we have fears that hold us back and we do nothing to do them, we're always gonna feel stuck or trapped in some area of life. So it's really paying attention to what are my biggest fears, creating a game plan and a system, with support, I don't think you should do it alone, in order to go all in on them until you start to overcome them. When we can do that, again, it's converting fear into confidence. Like you said, you have undeniable evidence and proof based on putting in the reps consistently. If you didn't have that evidence or proof, you still might be lacking confidence or fearful of certain things because you didn't take the action. And that's what, really what it is. A lot of us are unwilling to face the fear and acknowledge that something's wrong with us or something's not perfect or something's off. So we mask it. We put on a mask to fit in and belong to others. But what we are saying when we do that is we do not belong to ourselves. "I'm trying to do something for you to like me, 'cause I don't like myself. So I'm putting a mask on. I'm projecting a false sense of confidence."
- CWChris Williamson
Performative.
- LHLewis Howes
Performative. And again, this is not right or wrong, good or bad. I'm not judging people, because I did all these things most of my life. Is it useful? Is it effective towards your meaningful mission? Is it gonna help give you more energy...... feel more peace and harmony when you go to sleep. I don't know about you, Chris, but I couldn't sleep for most of my life until I hit 30 because I would ruminate for an hour, hour and a half almost every night, just staring up at the ceiling. Thinking, stressing, anxious about... myself and not feeling good enough. (smacks lips) And I would try to perform and work really hard to feel better, but it still didn't work.
- CWChris Williamson
Well, I know what it feels like to lay awake at night wondering if you're doing the thing that you're supposed to be doing-
- LHLewis Howes
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
... uh, and wondering where your life's going and if this is actually how you're supposed to spend your days. And am I really fulfilling my potential? And, uh, w- why don't I have the things that I want? Why don't I feel the way that I should?
- LHLewis Howes
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
W- why is life not... I don't know.
- LHLewis Howes
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
D- d- it's, it felt discordant. It felt like chords that were being played out of tune with each other. Um, I do think one of the easiest ways... And this is me speaking to myself, but also anybody that feels like, "Okay, I don't have the self-belief, but I also don't, also don't have any proof."
- LHLewis Howes
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
For me, the easiest place to start is to do action. And the reason is for this-
- LHLewis Howes
Got to take action, man.
- CWChris Williamson
... for the same reason that going to the gym is easier than meditating, that you can see the reps that you do, right?
- LHLewis Howes
Yes.
- CWChris Williamson
I, I know that I spent 30 minutes writing after sitting down for an hour and a half and procrastinating on-
- LHLewis Howes
Rum- ruminating, yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah. On, on writing my blog post, right?
- LHLewis Howes
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
On starting my Substack, on choosing the fucking logo for my website-
- LHLewis Howes
Yes.
- CWChris Williamson
... or whatever it is that you decide to do. That is... it is so obvious to me that that is work that is done and it is more undeniable-
- LHLewis Howes
(laughs) Yes.
- CWChris Williamson
... than I spent time digging through the trauma of my past-
- LHLewis Howes
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
... introspectively and changing my beliefs.
- LHLewis Howes
Yes.
- CWChris Williamson
For me... and this may be different for girls, I'm not sure, but certainly for guys, I think that an action-focused, I did a thing today-
- 40:38 – 43:57
The Balance Between Feeling Enough & Staying Hungry
- LHLewis Howes
- CWChris Williamson
Talk to me about this balance between feeling like you're enough and staying hungry. There's certainly a sm- a big-
- LHLewis Howes
I think you do.
- CWChris Williamson
... cohort of people that I know who internally have a fear of-
- LHLewis Howes
T- once they're the complacent, they don't wanna get complacent, right?
- CWChris Williamson
... of dealing with their shit-
- LHLewis Howes
Yes.
- CWChris Williamson
... because they know that the-
- LHLewis Howes
(inhales) It won't drive them.
- CWChris Williamson
... chip on their shoulder-
- LHLewis Howes
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... is part of the fuel. Now, it's an incredibly toxic fuel, but it's fucking potent.
- LHLewis Howes
Yeah. I mean, you hear, you hear about some of the greatest athletes of all time. You see, you know, Tom Brady talking about, "I've always had this chip on my shoulder." And look at him, he's the greatest athlete. I mean, the greatest quarterback of all time, undeniably based on results, right? Um, but who knows if he's really fulfilled or happy. And I don't, I don't wanna sit here and judge either way, but it's like-
- CWChris Williamson
You've had Michael Gervais on the show, right?
- LHLewis Howes
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah. So, he... I asked him this question. I said-
- LHLewis Howes
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
... "Do you think that most high performers-"
- LHLewis Howes
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
"... on average are happier or more miserable than the normal person?" He said, "Without a doubt, they're more miserable."
- LHLewis Howes
More miserable. Yeah, I think so. I think so, unless you find some other way to create harmony in your life.
- CWChris Williamson
Think about it this way. Think about how much of an outlier you have to be to be an unbelievable high performer.
- LHLewis Howes
Uh-huh.
- CWChris Williamson
And then within that cohort of the best in the world, there's outliers within that-
- LHLewis Howes
Oh, yeah. Another level.
- CWChris Williamson
... that are the ones that have somehow managed to be balanced with it.
- LHLewis Howes
Yeah. (sighs) I just think... here's... I've had some conversations with some mutual friend of ours about this, "I don't wanna let this chip off my shoulder, because then it's not gonna drive me anymore."
- CWChris Williamson
Correct. Yep.
- LHLewis Howes
And here's the thing, I don't feel like... I really don't feel like I have a chip on my shoulder anymore. I did. And I don't feel like I do. I feel like more... I have a desire to fulfill my mission. And I have a desire to give my best to my creator. You know, if that's God, great. I, I'm here for a reason. I don't know... really know what that is. But if it is a reason, I wanna make sure I give it my all. And I wanna give my all to the mission of this season of life.And that's more of what I'm afraid of, is not, like, a chip on my shoulder about three kids from middle school that picked on me, or someone that picked me last on a dodgeball team, or the, the guy that sexually abused me, or all these things. It's not like, "I'm gonna go show them." What does that do for me? It doesn't do anything for me. It's more, "How can I be of service to my mission? How can I show up for my mission?" And by doing that, man, I'm gonna be super proud of myself. How can I show up for my friends, my family, and my community in a big way? Man, that gives me energy and fuel, knowing I'm making an impact rather than knowing I'm right, winning, or being successful. That gives me this, like, renewable energy. It gives me, like, this fuel that I feel like will never burn out.
- CWChris Williamson
I wonder whether part of the selection criteria for the people who have a forward, running towards something they want, as opposed to running away from something they fear mentality is to do with that group that they've got around them-
- 43:57 – 1:00:03
The Need for a Strong Support Network
- CWChris Williamson
support system or community around them at the moment?
- LHLewis Howes
(sighs) Man.
- CWChris Williamson
What, what, what can they do?
- LHLewis Howes
(sighs) I just think this is, this is not a lone- this is not a one-man game. I just think it's a, it's a game we're supposed to play with other people, you know? And I used to be the, kind of the lone wolf, and, and it was me versus the world. It was me against the world with everything, and I always thought the world was against me. And I'm gonna have that feeling of anxiety, stress, and overwhelm when it's me versus the world, as opposed to, "We're all in this together."
- CWChris Williamson
You do realize how narcissistic that is for the people that have that viewpoint, right? "You think that the world is against you? The world doesn't think twice about you. The world doesn't-"
- LHLewis Howes
That's what it feels like, though.
- CWChris Williamson
Oh, I'm aware that it does.
- LHLewis Howes
Yeah, yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
I'm aware, and I see this online, and I had the same, I had this- the exact same thing.
- LHLewis Howes
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
This is me speaking to my past self. Like, dude, the world doesn't think twice-
- LHLewis Howes
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... about you.
- LHLewis Howes
They're thinking about their own stuff. (laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah. People, you, you would be way, way, way more self-confident if you realized how rarely other people-
- LHLewis Howes
I know.
- CWChris Williamson
... gave a shit about anything that you did.
- LHLewis Howes
I know.
- CWChris Williamson
And yet, this- it is a, uh, incredibly narcissistic, victim mentality that, "Look at what the world is doing to me. Look at how hard I have it."
- LHLewis Howes
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
"It's me against the world. I'm gonna Sisyphus my way up this hill. I'll bear the brunt of all of it."
- LHLewis Howes
I know.
- CWChris Williamson
You know, s-
- LHLewis Howes
Carry the weight of the world, yeah, yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah, precisely, this existential burden.
- LHLewis Howes
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
It's like, bro, you have had some traumas that are absolutely independent to you, and quite rightly, you require sympathy for that. But it's not like the world made this happen.
- LHLewis Howes
Yeah, yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
You know?
- LHLewis Howes
Who are- who is, uh, who are some top athletes, in your mind, that you think of when you think of sports and the greatest athletes of all time who are a couple?
- 1:00:03 – 1:08:18
Powerless Mindset Vs Greatness Mindset
- CWChris Williamson
Mindset in Motion cycle?
- LHLewis Howes
(sighs) Let me get to the page here, 'cause there's a graphic.
- CWChris Williamson
Get it up.
- LHLewis Howes
There's a graphic here for this. Um, let me find it here. Before I get to that actually, I want to talk about, um, the difference between a powerless mindset and a greatness mindset, um, 'cause I think this is, this is gonna be interesting. This is where I actually think people should start.... is, is going over the powerless mindset versus the greatness mindset. Then I'll get back to the-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- LHLewis Howes
... uh, this other part here, um, since this popped up for me. So, wherever you're at right now, whether you're crushing it or succeeding, or you feel like you're stuck and you're in beteen- in between transitions, maybe a career, a break-up, or you're, you just sold a company, whatever it is, on page 201, I have this graphic, um, and I can just share with you guys just so you understand it, is to assess and see, "Am I in a powerless mindset or in a greatness mindset?" And there's really six key factors. And this does not mean you are good or bad, right or wrong, as a human being. It does not mean you're not lovable or anything like that. It just means, is your mindset as effective as it can be, or is it holding you back? That's all it means. And a powerless mindset is someone who lacks a meaningful mission. I think your interview with Jordan Peterson was great because he talked about, you know, making sure you have a direction, an aim, something to go towards. A lot of people don't have a clear direction, where the direction isn't the right direction, it's an inauthentic direction. And so they might hit it, but realize it's not what they wanted. But either way, I believe a, a man without a mission is a dangerous man. When we have no clear direction, that's when bad things usually tend to happen. And you see a lot of our military who struggle and suffer after their mission ends and they come home and they don't know what to do next. And thankfully, there's a lot of programs for our men and women who are, who have returned, to get them back on a new mission. But I just think lacking a meaningful mission, we are in a powerless mindset. The mission can be, "I'm in a season of figuring out my life." Cool. At least you're clear that you're in a season of recovery, reflection, of trying stuff. Awesome. But when you're just like, "I have no clue what I want to do," you are in a powerless mindset. Number two, when we're controlled by fear. Again, that doesn't mean that there's not going to be fear that comes up. But when it controls us, we are powerless to it. So that's why we have a lot of exercises about overcoming fear. When we're crippled by self-doubt... Again, for me, I was crippled by it for a long time, the fear of judgment and not feeling enough, not feeling lovable, not feeling enough. And it was really me learning to feel enough to myself. I seeked it from outside validation, but still didn't believe it internally. So it was learning how to have a, how to have a new relationship with self and stop abandoning myself in this process to overcome self-doubt. The fourth one, I think a lot of people don't talk about when it comes to mindset, is concealing past pains. This is something that I think a lot of men struggle with, the idea of actually sharing their past pain. And I am just a big believer, based on all the science and all the research and all the therapists and neuroscientists I've interviewed, and talk about in the book, that when we conceal past pains, it hurts us more. It's more of a poison inside of us, and it affects us and our abilities to feel peace and abundance and harmony better when we have something in us that we're afraid to share. For 25 years, I held inside of me that I'd been sexually abused, until 10 years ago. I opened up about it, uh, privately with people, and eventually started talking about it publicly, because I wanted to give men more of a permission to open up about all their shames, their pains. Not in a public setting, but being able to talk to a good friend, therapist, priest, or whatever it is for you. When we conceal, it means we're afraid and we have shame around something that has happened or that we did. And I just think that keeps us powerless. Um, the fifth thing is being defined by the opinions of others. It doesn't mean don't get feedback and support from others, but being defined by them as our identity is what holds us back and makes us powerless.
- CWChris Williamson
That's an interesting balance there.
- LHLewis Howes
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
You know? The same as the, is it belief or is it action?
- LHLewis Howes
Yes.
- CWChris Williamson
Is it fear of insufficiency or is it desire for more?
- LHLewis Howes
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
Is it feedback from the world around us, or is it completely reliant on what they think about us?
- LHLewis Howes
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
This is the virtuous mean, as Aristotle-
- LHLewis Howes
Yes. Yes.
- CWChris Williamson
... called it, right? You know, the middling section where it's not so much that it's toxic, but not so little that it's ineffective. And that appropriate dose for certain things, like, to get feedback from the people around you or the world at large right, the actual band that you're-
- LHLewis Howes
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
... playing with isn't all that wide.
- LHLewis Howes
I know.
- CWChris Williamson
It's really difficult to manage to find it right.
- LHLewis Howes
Did you, um, did you have any really good coaches growing up in sports, in cricket or anything else you played in?
- CWChris Williamson
So... No, not really. Not in terms of mindset.
- LHLewis Howes
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
I... What can I say, man? I mean-
- LHLewis Howes
Yeah, yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... the, the guys, they were fantastic at what they taught, but-
- LHLewis Howes
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
... I never once learned the value of practice. I never learned the line between putting in work now-
- LHLewis Howes
Mm-hmm.
- 1:08:18 – 1:18:36
Finding The Thing that Fuels You
- LHLewis Howes
stuff until you get clear. And even once you're clear, that thing might change a year, five, 10 years later, you know? I loved baseball until I didn't. I played from five years old till I was 17. And then one summer after the season was done, I was just like, "I don't think I wanna do this anymore."
- CWChris Williamson
Hmm.
- LHLewis Howes
It was part of my mission until-
- CWChris Williamson
It wasn't.
- LHLewis Howes
... I had new interests, until it wasn't. I was like, "Actually, I'm not getting fulfilled enjoyment from this like I was." And that's okay.
- CWChris Williamson
That's a really interesting point to bring up, because I think a lot of people presume that what they're about to embark on now is going to be there forever.
- LHLewis Howes
No. No.
- CWChris Williamson
It's a very juvenile approach. And I have this... Again, this is me speaking to myself, not only now, but in the past. It's not... The thing that you're pursuing now can be periodized. It can just be for the next few years.
- LHLewis Howes
Exactly.
- CWChris Williamson
It can be... And David Deida talks about this in Way of the Superior Man. At the very start, he says, "The thing which used to light you up now no longer makes you feel, uh, alive." And it's like a crab outgrowing its shell.
- LHLewis Howes
Yes.
- CWChris Williamson
And all of the things and the, the routines, and you have to force yourself to go to the gym, to go to practice-
- LHLewis Howes
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
... to see your friends, to go out and party, whatever it might be. And that's a signal. That's... You're being poked and someone's saying, "Dude, this, this isn't really aligned-
- LHLewis Howes
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... for you so much anymore. Maybe you gotta find something new." But the advantage of that is there is less pressure on you to get the thing that you choose. It's not got to be the life purpose-
- LHLewis Howes
I know.
- CWChris Williamson
... for the rest of time. It can just be for the next three years.
- LHLewis Howes
What's the season? And that's why I love sports analogies. I mean, I'm an athlete, but I mean, you look at the guys who... I mean, JJ Watt's an example. He just retired. He was like an all-star NFL, one of the top NFL players in the last decade. And he realized, "I'd accomplished everything I wanted to. Like, this season has run its course." And that's why it's important to have an off season, to be able to reflect and say, "Is this something I wanna do anymore? Let me reflect on this and get clear on my mission for the next season." Or, "I'm in a new chapter. I'm discovering something new." And I think the other, the last part of the, uh, power of this mindset is when you drift towards complacency. When we stay in that place, we are just powerless to not having a clear mission and not wanting to grow and improve. And I'm not saying that we should be working hard and pushing ourself to the limit constantly every day in extreme levels, but if we stay complacent, I just know we won't also be happy and be joyful. Inconsistent complacency. You know, there might be a season of time where that's fine. In the greatness mindset, it- it's really... So it's reflecting. Do, do I have any of these six areas on a continual basis? And asking yourself, "Am I in any of these six at any moment? Do I lack a meaningful mission, control by fear, all these things?" If so, again, you're not bad and wrong. Nothing about that. It's just, are you using your talents to the best of your ability? And if not, now we're aware of it, and the greatness mindset is being driven by a meaningful mission. For me, I have one sentence that I'm driven by, and that's to serve and impact 100 million lives weekly, to help them improve the quality of their life. That's my mission. The mechanisms can change. It could be podcasting and YouTube today. It could be blogging tomorrow. I have no idea. Whatever that I'm passionate about and have power and talent in, I'm gonna lean into the mechanisms with that mission. But I am clear. And most people listening or watching, they can't tell their friends in one sentence what their mission is. They can say, "Well, I'm working this job," or, "I'm in this relationship," or, "I've got these goals," but what is the mission of this season of life? And I think when you get clear in one sentence for yourself and you can speak it, then you can act accordingly. It's really easy to say yes and no to things, because you know what's gonna serve the mission or what's not gonna serve it. So it's just getting as clear as possible. And again, you don't... It can be like, "I'm just trying to make a couple grand a month to get off my sister's couch." Okay, cool. Then you're clear on this mission-
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- LHLewis Howes
... until you accomplish it.
- CWChris Williamson
There's a, a really great insight from Jeff Bezos when he was still at Amazon. Uh, both him and Musk had a single ordinating principle that they wrapped everything around.
Episode duration: 1:21:55
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