How To Develop A Resilient Mind | Dr Rick Hanson

1. 0:00 – 2:53

   Why resilience matters: building an “unshakable core” of wellbeing

   1. CWChris Williamson0:00

      (wind blowing) Hello, friends. Before I introduce today's guest, I wanted to give a massive shout-out to everyone who shared and supported the episode from last week. We ended up in the top 100 on Apple Podcasts worldwide chart for three days, off the back of one episode, which is, uh, absolutely insane. We've also now crossed 3.6 million listen minutes (laughs) in under a year. So thank you very much. Please continue to share the episodes, tell a friend who you think would enjoy them, and rate the podcast if you would, wherever you are listening. It does massively help, and it makes me very happy. Today, I'm sitting down with Dr. Rick Hanson, who is a psychologist and New York Times bestselling author. Now, what's particularly interesting about Rick was that he has a very deep understanding of the esoteric meditation and wellness side of the brain and, and how life can be conducted, but also has a very strong academic background in science as well. So, he is a, a serious (laughs) contender for understanding how the brain works, and today we're talking about Resilient, his new book. It's a very novel topic that I've never actually thought of all that much, and relating it to how we experience everyday life and how it can improve our wellbeing was a, a big eye-opener, and I would be very interested to know if you agree. So, if you do or if you don't, drop me a message on Instagram, Twitter, wherever you find me, @chriswillex. For now, we're going to learn how to be resilient with Dr. Hanson. (upbeat music) Dr. Rick Hanson, how are you today?

   2. RHDr Rick Hanson2:01

      Chris, I'm very happy to be here. And by the way, please call me Rick, or I'll have to call you Mr. Williamson or something.

   3. CWChris Williamson2:06

      (laughs) That's fine. We'll stay informal today.

   4. RHDr Rick Hanson2:10

      Yeah.

   5. CWChris Williamson2:10

      So Rick, what are we going to learn about today? What are you teaching us about?

   6. RHDr Rick Hanson2:14

      Well, you've asked me here to really talk about resilience, which for me is a word that's kinda easy to dismiss, like a cliché we've heard it a million times. But, the essence for me is how do you grow? How? How do you grow an unshakable core of resilient happiness? That's the question. It's easy to be happy when everything's going your way, but in the core of your being, how do you build up an unconditional wellbeing that can deal with the challenges of life and still feel content and at peace inside? So that's what I hope we can talk about.

   7. CWChris Williamson2:47

      Wow, that would be... If I can come up with that by the end of this episode, I'll be an (laughs) incredibly happy man. Uh, so-

   8. RHDr Rick Hanson2:53

      (laughs)

2. 2:53 – 4:28

   From Hardwiring Happiness to Resilient: the method vs. the “12 strengths”

   1. CWChris Williamson2:53

      ... many listeners will probably know you for Hardwiring Happiness. That was a, a New York Times bestseller, right? Um-

   2. RHDr Rick Hanson2:59

      Mm-hmm.

   3. CWChris Williamson2:59

      Was there much overlap between that and the current book you're writing?

   4. RHDr Rick Hanson3:03

      That's a-

   5. CWChris Williamson3:04

      Or like the current book-

   6. RHDr Rick Hanson3:04

      ... great question.

   7. CWChris Williamson3:04

      ... you just released

   8. NANarrator3:05

      I should say.

   9. RHDr Rick Hanson3:05

      Yeah. That book, Hardwiring Happiness, y- kind of you get it from the title. It's the, it's about the fundamental how of growing qualities inside that you, that you care about, like grit, or gratitude, or happiness, or self-worth, love for others, skills of different kinds. In other words, how do we actually hardwire passing experiences that are mostly usually wasted on the brain, but instead, how do we capture them? How do we harvest them and wire them into our own bodies, so we become stronger and happier in general? So that's like the general method, how to fish, and then the book Resilient, it's gonna be a dumb metaphor here-

   10. CWChris Williamson3:43

       (laughs)

   11. RHDr Rick Hanson3:43

       ... is about catching 12 fish. (laughs) You know?

   12. CWChris Williamson3:45

       Okay.

   13. RHDr Rick Hanson3:46

       One of the 12 fish of 12 strengths, that book's about 12 strengths, 12 factors that are based in the evolution of the brain as a kind of framework, but then we get into the practicality of it, 12 strengths inside that bring a resilient wellbeing in the face of life.

   14. CWChris Williamson4:00

       Mm-hmm.

   15. RHDr Rick Hanson4:00

       One of the 12 strengths is learning, so that's the how to fish in general, and then the other 11 are specific fish, like mindfulness, compassion, aspiration, courage, that the book teaches you how to catch, in effect, and w- weave into your own body and so that you have them with you wherever you go. So that's kind of a difference between the two books.

   16. CWChris Williamson4:22

       I get you. So is learning the foundation upon which all of the others are built?

3. 4:28 – 6:52

   Learning as self-reliance: Rick’s teenage turning point

   1. RHDr Rick Hanson4:28

      Yes, and isn't it true that that's the foundation of everything? You know, uh, I, I had this experience when I was a teenager that, when I look back on it, it was like a lot of things that happen when you're a teenager. You blow right by it, and you hardly realize that something has happened that's important for you, you know? But you look back at it later. I was about 15, and I realized that I was utterly unhappy. I was miserable. I was neurotic. I was seriously messed up. Um, I was a mess, and I was kind of in despair, in a way. Like, "What am I gonna do? My crummy family, my crummy school, I'm dead in the water. No one likes me." It wasn't, it wasn't horrible abusive, like some childhoods are, but it was pretty bad, pretty miserable. But the light bulb went off that I could always grow and heal and learn and develop from here, going forward. In other words, I could learn every single day how to be a little happier, how to talk to girls, how not to be such a dork, how to not get so bothered by my parents. You know, I could learn and grow every day, and that is the essence of self-reliance, where you take it on every day. "How can I learn? How can I grow? How can I be a little happier, a little stronger, a little wiser when I go to bed tonight?" And that got me really, really interested in that fundamental process of how do you actually develop yourself, 'cause then, that's the strength of strengths, right? Learning, broadly defined, not memorizing the multiplication table. I mean, like body learning, emotional learning, social learning, spiritual learning. That is the strength of strengths, 'cause it's the one that grows the rest of them. So if you get good at learning, duh, you know, then you can apply it to anything you wanna develop inside yourself or if you wanna help other people.

   2. CWChris Williamson6:08

      Yeah, I think certainly for me, the friends that I'm closest with and the people that I resonate with the most are others that have a passion for learning things.

   3. RHDr Rick Hanson6:17

      Mm-hmm.

   4. CWChris Williamson6:17

      And that's, that's not restricted to academic learning or, uh, k- useless fact learning. (laughs) It's a-

   5. RHDr Rick Hanson6:24

      Yeah.

   6. CWChris Williamson6:26

      ...a virulent hunger for just wanting more, more knowledge or understanding-

   7. RHDr Rick Hanson6:31

      Yep.

   8. CWChris Williamson6:31

      ...whether that be, uh, understanding ourselves and why we operate the way we do, or understanding-

   9. RHDr Rick Hanson6:38

      Yep.

   10. CWChris Williamson6:38

       ...why there's debris from the bottom of the sea on the top of Mount Everest. Like, you know, you just, just wanting to know stuff. And I think I feel very fortunate that I'm one of the people that's wired in a way that I enjoy learning. Um-

   11. RHDr Rick Hanson6:51

       Mm-hmm.

4. 6:52 – 8:58

   What kind of learning actually changes your life (traits, not trivia)

   1. CWChris Williamson6:52

      However, I definitely wish that my capacity for retention and recall was improved.

   2. RHDr Rick Hanson6:59

      Yeah. Now if I could though, a- as a guy, I am a f- I don't... Uh, well, I'll... I'm a total geek myself. I love learning of the kind that you're describing. And the kind I'm gonna focus on here is in a way a different kind of learning. It's more a becoming, in other words, becoming stronger, becoming happier, becoming more patient, uh, becoming, you know, more at peace in a deep and profound way, uh, becoming more skillful with other people, you know, d- developing habits, uh, um, having it be easier to exercise or not drink too much or, uh, not be so bothered by other people. That's the kind of learning I really wanna focus on here with you, the, you- you know, the development of kind of who we are, us including the background experience of living, uh, the development of traits inside us over time. Because to me, as a guy who's well-educated and I love learning in an ongoing kind of way, day-to-day, most of that kind of more intellectual learning is interesting, but it doesn't have a big effect on our day-to-day wellbeing or our footprint on the planet or our effect on other people. The development of who we are in terms of psychological traits, of happiness, or calm, or lovingness, or self-compassion, grit, things like that, that's what really affects us, um, every day. And so that, as- as a psychologist and as a psychotherapist, that's especially what interests me, also as a long-term mindfulness teacher and spiritual practitioner, that's what has also really interested me, you know, in my own path of awakening over this lifetime.

   3. CWChris Williamson8:43

      Wow. Yeah. So where do we begin? Where do we start? If we want to-

   4. RHDr Rick Hanson8:48

      Yeah.

   5. CWChris Williamson8:48

      ...we want to develop ourselves into a, a, a-

   6. RHDr Rick Hanson8:52

      Mm-hmm.

   7. CWChris Williamson8:52

      ...better fish catcher-

   8. RHDr Rick Hanson8:53

      Yeah.

   9. CWChris Williamson8:53

      ...and we've got 11 fish and we wanna get 'em all, um-

   10. RHDr Rick Hanson8:56

       Yeah.

   11. CWChris Williamson8:56

       ...where, where are we starting?

5. 8:58 – 11:25

   A needs-based map of resilience: safety, satisfaction, connection

   1. RHDr Rick Hanson8:58

      That's right. Uh, a useful framework for me is to think in, uh, think in terms of the three fundamental needs of any animal, which are related to the three stages of evolution and the three levels or stages in the brain. And those needs give us an overar- overarching, uh, organizing framework because if you think about it, we are resilient in the service of needs, and if we don't meet our needs, we can't sustain wellbeing. Needs are a kind of deep idea in biology and in psychology, and I think, uh, it's really useful actually to move them back into the front, uh, foreground of the conversation, what are our needs, and to be vulnerable enough and brave enough to accept the fact that you really do have needs. So needs, three needs, safety, satisfaction, connection, in broad umbrella terms. Most of what we need and want, and I'll blur the distinctions there, um, most of what we need and want falls into one of those three categories or some combination. S- we need to be safe. I- rule one in the wild is eat lunch today, don't be lunch today.

   2. CWChris Williamson10:08

      (laughs)

   3. RHDr Rick Hanson10:08

      Live to see the sunrise, right?

   4. CWChris Williamson10:10

      Mm-hmm.

   5. RHDr Rick Hanson10:10

      Uh, and then, uh, well, we also need to be satisfied, whether it's, you know, a little worm that needs to get food or a complicated human that's, you know, seeking different goals and different kinds of pleasures and trying accomplish things and be successful in life. And we also need to be connected, again, whether it's a worm just having sex with another worm or very complicated humans dealing with politics and grievances and tribalism and attachment and s- social emotions like shame and inadequacy or feelings of self-worth. So that's the territory here. So we need to address our needs. That was... So the first thing I would just suggest to people is to look inside and ask yourself, given the challenges that you're facing out in the world and inside yourself, what are the key needs that are really addressed that are being tapped here? I- are you dealing with challenges to safety? Are you dealing with challenges to satisfaction, to goal attainment? Are you dealing with challenges in relationships? And then that takes you... It's really useful. That takes you diagnostically as a kind of roadmap into spotlighting the particular resources that would help you with your particular challenges. So let me be really concrete about it.

   6. CWChris Williamson11:25

      Cool.

6. 11:25 – 13:58

   When safety is threatened: calming down, grit, and “I’m okay right now”

   1. RHDr Rick Hanson11:25

      So, um, I'll do it kind of fast in a summary way. So you think about challenges to safety. They're indicated a lot by fear, or anger, or feeling immobilized, or you're outgunned, outnumbered, you're helpless. So if in yourself or other people those red lights are flashing on your inner dashboard, you know anxiety, so any kind of spectrum including subtle uneasiness, or irritability, anger, or a sense of khh being frozen, you know, you can't... you're, uh, you can't do anything, that indicates needs for safety. And it's important obviously to act out in the world. My focus is gonna be about, how do you act inside your own mind? How do you grow strengths inside yourself, the good inside yourself? So to deal with safety, it's really incredibly useful to know how to calm yourself down.... how good are you at calming down? How good are- what's your resting state of relaxation and ease inside yourself? How, how rapidly can you drop into tranquility at will? Those are key strengths that develop. Another key strength obviously is grit, determination. I have a lot of background in wilderness. I've done a lot of things where you really had to suck it up and dig deep to survive. That's a strength to deal with safety challenges. And then a third big one is to notice that actually most of the time, you're all right in the moment. Uh, we're designed through evolution, as you well know, to be paranoid, right? Always looking around the corner, what's about to bite us or eat us or leave us? And instead, the truth is, most of the time though, in the moment of now, we're actually okay. And as you develop that felt sense of being okay in the moment, you're more able to deal with challenges without having them invade the core of your being.

   2. CWChris Williamson13:07

      Yeah.

   3. RHDr Rick Hanson13:07

      I've done a lot of things in rock climbing where it's really hazardous, but I'm not freaked out inside. So I'll stop right there. I've al- I've spoken to one of the three needs, but that gives you an illustration of what I think is really useful to do.

   4. CWChris Williamson13:18

      I totally get it. I, I, I really do. I recently did a podcast with Alex Hutchinson, who wrote a book called Endure. If you haven't s-

   5. RHDr Rick Hanson13:25

      Mm.

   6. CWChris Williamson13:25

      ... read it yet, I would, I would highly advise getting that also.

   7. RHDr Rick Hanson13:27

      Yeah.

   8. CWChris Williamson13:28

      I'm very fascinated by that. What I like and what some of the listeners at home, um, may resonate with is you are breaking down a very overwhelming, nebulous, kind of ephemeral, global-

   9. RHDr Rick Hanson13:43

      Mm.

   10. CWChris Williamson13:43

       ... sensation of s- discomfort which the sum is greater than the whole of the parts sometimes.

   11. RHDr Rick Hanson13:52

       Mm.

   12. CWChris Williamson13:52

       And by breaking this down into its component constituent parts-

   13. RHDr Rick Hanson13:58

       Yeah.

7. 13:58 – 17:25

   Self-awareness first: matching the right tool to the right problem

   1. CWChris Williamson13:58

      Y- s- you see them for what they are and nothing more, and you're also given a clearer path as to what you need to fix. So, I like the idea of identifying what emotions are coming up-

   2. RHDr Rick Hanson14:09

      Yeah.

   3. CWChris Williamson14:10

      ... and then attaching those to, "Okay, so if I am feeling X, then downstream from that, what is it?" Or upstream from that, should I say.

   4. RHDr Rick Hanson14:20

      Yeah.

   5. CWChris Williamson14:20

      "What is it that's causing that? What is it that I need to potentially spend a little bit more time looking at?"

   6. RHDr Rick Hanson14:26

      I'm very glad you clarified that, Chris, 'cause you're totally right. Um, I tend to make assumptions, 'cause I'm a therapist long time, you know, that, uh, in terms of self-awareness, but you're absolutely right. The foundation is self-awareness. You've gotta be aware of the fact that you're feeling uneasy or se- unsettled or anxious, or you feel threatened in some way. And if, 'cause if you don't recognize that, then you won't be able to deliberately identify, you know, the tools you need for it. It's kinda like if your car has a flat tire and you think you're gonna solve that problem by putting gas in the tank, that's not gonna be helpful.

   7. CWChris Williamson15:03

      (laughs)

   8. RHDr Rick Hanson15:03

      You've got to identify, yeah, that it's a flat tire. I'll give you a little example. If people... And a lot of people have a background sense of anxiety. They're anxious. You know, we live in turbulent times. We're, you know, invaded by a lot of media. There are a lot of reasons that are externalized that people feel anxious. And also, different groups are being kind of shoved up against each other. Uh, that tends to stir things up.

   9. CWChris Williamson15:26

      Mm-hmm.

   10. RHDr Rick Hanson15:26

       And then in everyday life, people often have a nagging background sense of, "Am I good enough? Am I performing? Will I get everything done? What do I need to do about this?" Blah, blah. So, it's helpful to look inside and realize, you know, if you are at all nervous or, or edgy or uneasy, and, and that often will then lead people to move into anger, especially men, uh, because o- it's a way to manage anxiety to move into aggression and anger. But at root, it there's an anxiety. So here's the thing. If you practice gratitude, uh, will that make you less anxious? No. Gratitude addresses satisfaction. That's like putting gas in the tank, right? But if you've got a flat tire 'cause you feel threatened by something, you're, you gotta deal with, uh, or inside yourself you feel uneasy just in general, uh, gratitude is not gonna serve you. You need to build up those kind of resources that I talked about previously that are specifically addressed to managing needs for safety.

   11. CWChris Williamson16:23

       So, what's the anxiety respon- What would you recommend-

   12. RHDr Rick Hanson16:26

       Mm-hmm.

   13. CWChris Williamson16:26

       ... to someone who's got this kind of pervasive-

   14. RHDr Rick Hanson16:29

       Mm-hmm.

   15. CWChris Williamson16:29

       ... low-

   16. RHDr Rick Hanson16:29

       Mm-hmm.

   17. CWChris Williamson16:30

       ... low level consistent anxiety-

   18. RHDr Rick Hanson16:32

       Yup.

   19. CWChris Williamson16:32

       ... or unease, general feeling of-

   20. RHDr Rick Hanson16:34

       Mm-hmm.

   21. CWChris Williamson16:34

       ... a- a- of concern?

   22. RHDr Rick Hanson16:35

       Yeah, which is 40% of the population, for sure.

   23. CWChris Williamson16:38

       Is that the stat?

   24. RHDr Rick Hanson16:40

       I'm sure it is at least that. I'm being a little conservative 'cause we're speaking about a background sense of kinda uneasiness or a tendency to go there. Maybe it's not in your mind all the time, but you can go there pretty fast.

   25. CWChris Williamson16:52

       Mm-hmm.

   26. RHDr Rick Hanson16:52

       And, uh, and then you have 10% easily of the population that are pretty clinically anxious. Well, the three resources that I named a moment ago are really good internal strengths. And to repeat the point, which bears repeating, this does not mean not doing things to make the world safer, you know? Like put a stop sign in an intersection or have a, you know, a, a v- good criminal justice system or healthcare system. Uh, I'm in America and, uh, we're working on all these right now.

   27. CWChris Williamson17:20

       Uh, yeah. You got a l-

   28. RHDr Rick Hanson17:21

       Yeah.

   29. CWChris Williamson17:21

       You got a little way to go.

   30. RHDr Rick Hanson17:22

       Yeah, we got, we're a little behind the curve. Well, that, we'll just kinda-

8. 17:25 – 21:29

   The neuropsychology of change: turning states into traits (Hebb’s law)

   1. CWChris Williamson17:25

      (laughs)

   2. RHDr Rick Hanson17:25

      ... set that aside for the moment. Um, so building up the felt sense and the visceral core of your body of calm strength, that's a really useful thing to look for h- uh, you know, f- a, a handful of opportunities every day to feel and then take the ten or so seconds, a breath or two or three, to begin the process of hardwiring that experience of the resource, the calm strength into your-

   3. CWChris Williamson17:55

      So can you give us-

   4. RHDr Rick Hanson17:56

      Mm-hmm.

   5. CWChris Williamson17:56

      Could you give us an example of that?

   6. RHDr Rick Hanson17:57

      Yep. Okay. So, let's, if- whatever you wanna grow, in... The neuropsychology of growth has two necessary and sufficient steps.... first we must experience what we want to grow or some factor of it, so we must experience calm strength if we want to grow calm strength. We must experience skillfulness with another person if we want to learn how to be more skillful, especially with a certain kind of person. All right. We start with the experience. But then, second, necessarily, we must turn that passing pattern of mental neural activation. Think of it as a very rapidly changing, um, you know, swirling eddy in the stream of consciousness-

   7. CWChris Williamson18:39

      Mm-hmm.

   8. RHDr Rick Hanson18:39

      ... that lasts only a few seconds before it becomes something else. We must help that passing pattern of activation leave a lasting physical change behind. Otherwise, by definition, there's no learning.

   9. CWChris Williamson18:51

      Okay. So how do-

   10. RHDr Rick Hanson18:52

       It's that-

   11. CWChris Williamson18:52

       ... how do we do that? How do we embed it?

   12. RHDr Rick Hanson18:54

       How do you do it? Yeah. That's w- Hardwiring Happiness is all about that. There are a lot of, there's a lot of detail about it. The essence is summarized in this great saying from the work of the Canadian psychologist Donald Hebb, "Neurons that fire together, wire together." That's the two stages right there, firing and wiring. So if you want to help them wire together, three major keys. First, keep them firing. Stay with the experience for a breath or two or longer instead of what people routinely do, which is to skitter onto the next thing, especially in our kind of jack-rabbity ADD-ish culture.

   13. CWChris Williamson19:27

       Yep.

   14. RHDr Rick Hanson19:27

       Uh, where, and also where our attention is being continually, um, hijacked by other people and attentions are most fundamental property, so it's important to claim your property and rest your attention for a breath or two or longer on the experience you want to internalize 'cause that's how you make it stick to you physically in part.

   15. CWChris Williamson19:46

       Mm-hmm.

   16. RHDr Rick Hanson19:47

       One, stay with it. Don't waste it. Handful of times a day. Two, if you also want a turbocharge, uh, what's called, as you know, experience dependent neuroplasticity, where you're helping your brain be changed for the better in effect, which is an incredibly cool thing to realize you're doing. You are taking charge of who you are becoming. You are taking charge of the brain change process. So a second major way to do that is try to feel the experience in your body. In other words, move out of this merely conceptual, like an idea, oh, I'm a strong guy, you know? That's good. That's better than the alternative.

   17. CWChris Williamson20:22

       Mm-hmm.

   18. RHDr Rick Hanson20:22

       But much better to feel it in your body 'cause the more an experience is embodied, the more of a neural trace it's gonna tend to leave behind, especially with repetition.

   19. CWChris Williamson20:32

       Okay.

   20. RHDr Rick Hanson20:33

       So feel it in your body. And, um, third thing that's a great hack for your brain is to focus on what's rewarding about the experience, what's enjoyable about it or meaningful to you. Because when you highlight the reward value of an experience, that increases activity of dopamine and norepinephrine, two key neurotransmitter systems that then flag the experience you're having at the time for priority in storage, for protection in the long-term processes over days and even weeks of long-term consolidation into neural networks of this experience you're internalizing into yourself. Those three things are great. You don't need to do them all. Uh, the more, the better. It's accumulative, you know? But those three, stay with it, feel it in your body, feel what's rewarding about it, will tend to steepen your growth curve, uh, your learning curve in general as you move through your day.

9. 21:29 – 31:09

   Negativity bias and what ‘positive’ really means (not rose-colored thinking)

   1. CWChris Williamson21:29

      So that is trying to reverse the our minds are Teflon for good thoughts and Velcro for bad thoughts.

   2. RHDr Rick Hanson21:36

      Oh, very good.

   3. CWChris Williamson21:37

      That's stepping in and you're, you're strapping some Velcro to some Teflon there a little bit, I suppose.

   4. RHDr Rick Hanson21:45

      Yeah. Let- let's speak to that. So you know my s- my schtick. Um, there, there are two reasons to- to do what I'm saying here. Number one, this is how to grow strengths and including happiness inside yourself. You have to turn states into traits. Passing experiences, neurons are firing, you have to help them wire into you. And this is profoundly important and people constantly skip the second step in their personal life or when they're helping coaching or therapizing, et cetera, other people. That's the fundamental process. That's worth doing in its own sake. If you want to help yourself grow and change for the better every day, this is how to do it. Second, doing this will compensate for what you're bringing up here, Chris, which is the brain's evolved negativity bias, which as I put it, makes the brain like Velcro for bad experiences, but Teflon for good ones. And obviously we need to register threats, and I say I don't believe in positive thinking. Nothing in what I'm saying is about looking at the world through rose-colored glasses. It actually, what I'm talking about here is old school. It's about self-reliance. It's about becoming stronger, tougher, wiser, smarter, braver, happier, more loving, uh, to deal with the crud of life and as well as just everyday opportunities. So there are two reasons to do this. One, to grow the good in general, and two, to compensate for the ways that Mother Nature wants to make us more anxious and irritable and uptight over time for broad purposes of survival, but most of the time, that negativity bias just creates a lot of excess suffering and, uh, unneeded conflicts with other people.

   5. CWChris Williamson23:24

      And within ourselves as well, I suppose.

   6. RHDr Rick Hanson23:26

      Yeah.

   7. CWChris Williamson23:27

      So w-

   8. RHDr Rick Hanson23:27

      That's right.

   9. CWChris Williamson23:28

      ... we've, we've talked about how we can reinforce positive learning.

   10. RHDr Rick Hanson23:33

       Correct.

   11. CWChris Williamson23:34

       How, how can we dampen the effect of negative learning?

   12. RHDr Rick Hanson23:37

       That's a great question. Well, and when I say positive, I want to be, again, really clear. It's not about, uh, just smell the roses. That's good, but when we say positive learning, we're talking about becoming grittier, becoming more patient, becoming more compassionate for other people, uh, you know, becoming, uh, more capable at work and-

   13. CWChris Williamson23:56

       So uh, as a, as a point there, uh, uh, I guess a flag in the ground that most of the listeners could use is, did that particular situation make me feel good? If so, sit with the situation, allow it to... Like, like how you would smell a nice glass of wine, right? Or how you'd savor a, you'd savor a good meal.... you'd sit, and you'd let it percolate, and you'd reflect-

   14. RHDr Rick Hanson24:19

       Yes.

   15. CWChris Williamson24:19

       ... on the experience briefly, for, like you say, the, the 10 seconds or so. That's how we identify, or that's one of the strategies, I'm gonna guess, that we can use to identify, "Should I be spending some time reflecting on this?"

   16. RHDr Rick Hanson24:34

       Um, I, I, that's totally true, and the reason I'm a little twitchy here is that I've just learned in talking about this that framing it in that way tends to take people fairly quickly into a kind of trivial or superficial take on this-

   17. CWChris Williamson24:52

       Got you.

   18. RHDr Rick Hanson24:52

       ... e- essentially equating it to-

   19. CWChris Williamson24:53

       So how can we, how can we frame it differently, then?

   20. RHDr Rick Hanson24:55

       Yeah. It's legit what you're saying. Why not? Obviously, savor that glass of wine or that moment, you know, with your partner, or you're just, you know, relaxing at the end of a workout. You know, why not? But what I'm getting at more generally is, what do you want to grow inside yourself these days? What are you trying to develop? Not just head learning, like knowing more things about, you know, the universe, but inside yourself. Are you trying to become, uh, more patient, more skillful, and so forth? So one example is, I've been married a long time. Something will happen with my wife. We're having an interaction, it's getting a little heated, I'm getting irritated, and I suddenly realize, "Hey, Rick, it'll go better (laughs) if you do X instead of Y." And that doesn't mean knuckling under my, to my wife or walking on eggshells. I just realized, "Oh, I could be more skillful in some way, in the future, and I gotta clean up the mess of this argument, but-"

   21. CWChris Williamson25:50

       Mm-hmm.

   22. RHDr Rick Hanson25:51

       "... in the future, I'm gonna, you know, be more skillful." There's a moment there to help that learning land inside yourself so that the next time your partner is doing their thing and maybe they're being a little irritating, uh, you're not gonna react the same way next time. You've actually learned how to be different. You've learned how to be more skillful. So that would be an example.

   23. CWChris Williamson26:13

       I totally-

   24. RHDr Rick Hanson26:13

       Or-

   25. CWChris Williamson26:13

       I totally get it. I think maybe if my, while I was, I was analogizing between, um-

   26. RHDr Rick Hanson26:19

       Mm-hmm.

   27. CWChris Williamson26:19

       ... you savoring a nice glass of wine-

   28. RHDr Rick Hanson26:21

       Mm-hmm.

   29. CWChris Williamson26:21

       ... and thinking, "This is nice," and-

   30. RHDr Rick Hanson26:23

       Mm-hmm.
10. 31:09 – 39:29

    Working with the negative: ‘let be, let go, let in’ + linking practice

    1. CWChris Williamson31:09

       ... not knowing what you're doing and missing, missing the mark. Um, so we, we mentioned about, um, uh, bad sensations, uh, uh, and, and-

    2. RHDr Rick Hanson31:16

       Oh yeah, thank you for that.

    3. CWChris Williamson31:18

       Let's get back onto that.

    4. RHDr Rick Hanson31:19

       Okay. 100%. So, um, first, w- well, I'll do it this way. For me, there's this fundamental, uh, three ways to work with your mind. Just about all the methods I've encountered as a therapist and a long time meditator, uh, fall into three categories. First, you just be with what's there. You feel the feelings, you let 'em flow, you explore them, you have to tolerate your own experience. You just be with what's there. Um, the second great way to practice with your mind is you're trying to reduce the negative. You know, you're trying to prevent it in the first place or decrease it or just release it entirely. And the third great way to practice with your mind is you're trying to grow the good. You're trying to create it, to protect it, to increase it. In effect, if your mind is like a garden, you can witness it pull weeds or plant flowers. Let be, let go, let in. And that framework, let be, let go, let in really is clarifying. So the first thing to do with the negative is to let it be. And I suppressed the negative a long time, which just made it worse 'cause the brain, the mind is not like a flushed toilet. It's more like a septic tank.

    5. CWChris Williamson32:31

       (laughs)

    6. RHDr Rick Hanson32:31

       You know? That stuff

    7. NANarrator32:32

       (laughs)

    8. RHDr Rick Hanson32:32

       ... moves around. So you have to be able to feel it, and that's where l- kinda like you're getting at earlier, these other, uh, resources inside of self-awareness and mindfulness actually ena- enable us to be with our own experience and not be overwhelmed by it. The thing is, um, that I've seen for a long time, I've been working with people for a really long time, and 50% of the battle is to be able to step back from your experience, not act it out, not react to it, and witness it in a space of awareness, to be with it. And that's half the battle right there. It's so important.

    9. CWChris Williamson33:11

       Wow.

    10. RHDr Rick Hanson33:12

        But then we need to let go. So then I would say this, these three ways to practice with your mind gives you a natural sequence that maps to what's happening in the brain as well. So first, we be with what's there. That helps it become immediately less upsetting 'cause we're kinda stepped back from it. We're witnessing the movie. We're not in the movie. And then we move into releasing where like you let tension flow out of your body, you, you know, you yell a little bit, not to freak anybody out, but you get it out of your system. Being real. Um, maybe there are ideas floating through your mind that you realize, "You know, I don't need to believe that crap." (laughs) You know? "I can let that go."

    11. CWChris Williamson33:48

        Mm-hmm.

    12. RHDr Rick Hanson33:49

        Or you realize, "I'm getting caught up in proving my point," you know? Or, "I'm getting attached to a certain goal and it's just not happening. I need to let it go. It's not gonna happen." All right. That's-

    13. CWChris Williamson34:00

        Mm-hmm.

    14. RHDr Rick Hanson34:00

        ... the second great way to practice with the negative. And then the third is to replace what you've released with some positive alternative. That's partly where this idea of matching the resources you're growing to the nature of the challenge and the, in terms of the need that was addressed is really useful. So if you're letting go, let's say, of negative that's more anxious and angry, you can replace it and focus on things like calm strength, feeling protected by others, relaxing your body. If what you released was more related to dissatisfaction like disappointment or frustration or a sense of your life being depressive or blah, you can then b- bring in in the third practice replacements that are things like gratitude, gladness, healthy pleasure, savoring that good glass of wine or that sunset, or accomplishment. That's a really important one to register again and again and again, successful goal attainment, including in small bits like each individual email as you go through your day.

    15. CWChris Williamson34:59

        (laughs)

    16. RHDr Rick Hanson35:00

        Let that in. Yeah. Or then if what you released, I'll finish on this one, is related to connection, so maybe you released feeling hurt by other people or mistreated or resentful or you're getting caught up in kind of grievances and vengeance, speaking of politics these days, but anyway, and in- instead of, you know, so after you've released that, what do you replace it with? You replace it with self-worth or feeling cared about or connected with other people or you grow compassion or self-compassion or confidence that are specifically related to negative material related to connection. So all right. So those three give you a great roadmap for dealing with stuff in the moment, and if you want to, as a bonus, uh, you can do what I call linking in which you're aware of both positive and negative in your mind at the same time. You have to keep the negative small and off to the side, like old feelings of hurt or feelings of resentment, and then in the foreground of your awareness, you focus on the positive material, the beneficial material, um, that's kind of the matched antidote to that negative. So you would be, let's say, in my example, aware simultaneously of feeling kinda hurt, off to the side, like ignored, dismissed, disrespected, but in the foreground, you would be really aware of people who like you, your buds, your buddies, your comrades, um, you know, your friends, your allies who really care about you and love you. And since neurons that fire together wire together, when you're aware of two things at once, especially if you keep the positive bigger, it will gradually soothe and ease and even replace the negative material over time.

    17. CWChris Williamson36:38

        That's, uh, that's a very nice prescriptive framework for, for dealing with thoughts that arise. I'm currently reading, uh, Five Ways to Know Yourself by Shinzen Young.

    18. RHDr Rick Hanson36:49

        Oh, I know Shinzen. He's the real deal.

    19. CWChris Williamson36:51

        Shinzen is a, uh, he's, yeah, he's definitely the real deal. That's a great way to put it. Um-

    20. RHDr Rick Hanson36:57

        Yeah.

    21. CWChris Williamson36:58

        So I'm currently reading Five Ways to Know Yourself, and-

    22. RHDr Rick Hanson37:01

        Yeah.

    23. CWChris Williamson37:01

        ... uh, anyone who else, anyone else who's read Shinzen's work will know that he cites suffering as pain times resistance. Actually, it's-

    24. RHDr Rick Hanson37:08

        Mm-hmm. (laughs)

    25. CWChris Williamson37:09

        ... yeah, it's pain times resistance, but what you have to remember is that that is pain to the power of resistance because-

    26. RHDr Rick Hanson37:15

        Mm-hmm. Yeah.

    27. CWChris Williamson37:15

        ... it's not pain plus resistance. It's for each element of pain that you have is multiplied by how much you resist it. And what I, I like about the approach that you've come up with there about being with the thoughts and about-

    28. RHDr Rick Hanson37:27

        Mm-hmm.

    29. CWChris Williamson37:28

        ... allowing them to sit in your mind and not resisting them is the-

    30. RHDr Rick Hanson37:32

        Yeah.
11. 39:29 – 45:49

    From concepts to routines: a 10-min/day protocol + ‘deep green’ home base

    1. CWChris Williamson39:29

       Um, so I, I think what, what might be nice, we've talked about a lot of the stuff is, um, it is quite prescriptive but still conceptual and application, a- a- actually getting after it and-

    2. RHDr Rick Hanson39:41

       Mm-hmm.

    3. CWChris Williamson39:41

       ... having some tacit strategies for how people can potentially implement some of this stuff is, is gonna be key. So are-

    4. RHDr Rick Hanson39:48

       Mm-hmm.

    5. CWChris Williamson39:48

       ... there some habits or routines or approaches which can be, uh, uh, uh, easily understood and easily applied that the listeners may be able to, to take away today?

    6. RHDr Rick Hanson40:00

       Sure. Oh, yeah. I mean, the one thing I would bang on is get interested in growing. In other words, get interested in the process of growth itself. It's weirdly difficult, Chris, for people to focus on the process of growing even though it's obviously logically everybody would go, "Oh, yeah, that's in- that's, that's the most important thing to get good at. Get good at growing, right? 'Cause then I can grow whatever else I wanna grow." Get good at growing. But a lot of people don't pay much attention to actually the process of helping learning land, uh, especially emotional learning, you know, body learning, you know. So that would be a, a real strong suggestion for people. It may seem abstract, but it's right in the middle of every day. You know, when you go to bed, are you any wiser, any stronger, any happier than when you woke up? So that would be a key suggestion. Then I would say a second thing if I could be kind of very concrete. Less than 10 minutes a day, if people did what I'm about to say, you would totally change their life, and I'll, and I'll put it out as a challenge and you tell me if I'm wrong. First, three things. First, as you go through your day, half a dozen times a day, a handful of times each day, slow down for a breath or two or three to take into yourself something beneficial that you're experiencing. Something that's useful, something that feels good, some coming home to a, a calmer, happier place inside. You know, a connection with a friend, you finish a task, you get the kids in bed finally, you look at the sunset, slow it down for a breath or two or three, right? Okay, that's a minute or two a day.

    7. CWChris Williamson41:42

       Mm-hmm.

    8. RHDr Rick Hanson41:42

       Second, pick one thing you're trying to grow in yourself these days that's of an inner strength that matters to you. Like, uh, one thing I'm trying to do myself is build up more and more the habit of complete patience in the moment, even at a pretty subtle level. So I'm working on that. I'm going after that, you know? And, uh, what else? What is it? You know, my wife's working on not being so anxious about stuff. Uh, uh, you know, different people are working on different things. What are you trying to develop in yourself? Know one thing that you're trying to grow each day and then look for, in the two stages of learning, opportunities to experience it, that second you take into yourself. Right? That will organize your day and give you hope because no matter how tough the world is, if you know what you're focused on developing in yourself, that kind of organizes what you're doing. And then the third thing I would suggest, um, which really goes to our animal nature and the ways in which deep down inside each one of us is a little lizard, mouse, and monkey (laughs) related to-

    9. CWChris Williamson42:46

       Hmm.

    10. RHDr Rick Hanson42:46

        ... the brain stem, subcortex, and neocortex and the three stages of evolution. You know, for a few minutes every day, drop into what I call deep green.... the deep green zone, where your body and mind feel deeply peaceful, contented, and loved and loving, in terms of the three needs. And rest in that for two or three or five minutes in a row to really, um, uh, hardwire it into your body and then is actually, uh, what I just described there, that felt sense of safe enough, satisfied enough, and connected enough, marked by a feeling broadly of peace, contentment, and love. That home ba- that's our home base, biologically. Mother Nature's plan is for her little creatures to rest in the deep green most minutes of most days because that's how you conserve biological resources, stay out of trouble, (laughs) you know? And that's your best odd strategy for a long and happy life. Problem is, in modern life, most people are jostled out of that home base by low grade but chronic mild to moderate stress.

    11. CWChris Williamson43:52

        Yeah.

    12. RHDr Rick Hanson43:53

        And so ... Yeah. So what I'm describing, three to five minutes a day, is a training where you're training the visceral core of your body, your heart rate, your lungs, your, your belly, your gut, the core of your being, to rest in this place of deep, strong wellbeing.

    13. CWChris Williamson44:10

        I get that.

    14. RHDr Rick Hanson44:11

        Deep green.

    15. CWChris Williamson44:11

        So, um-

    16. RHDr Rick Hanson44:12

        Yep. All right. 10 minutes a day, that's it.

    17. CWChris Williamson44:14

        That's about as-

    18. RHDr Rick Hanson44:14

        First day you do it, it'll feel different. Do it for three days in a row, you'll feel really different. 10 days in a row, change your life.

    19. CWChris Williamson44:21

        That's fantastic. For the listeners at home, if you listened to, I want to say Life Hacks 105, which was round about a month ago, Yusuf mentioned an app, which is called Remembered. Have you heard of this, Rick?

    20. RHDr Rick Hanson44:36

        No. But I like the idea.

    21. CWChris Williamson44:37

        So, uh, the little icon is a bit of string around someone's finger and the- it's essentially just a reminders app, which you could use on your phone, but this one's a little bit different in that you set daily repeated reminders or you can set them at periods throughout the day. And what Yusuf likes to use it for, which is, uh, relates nicely to the strategy that you've just mentioned there, is he has a very particular sound. It's got a library of just, like, chimes and stuff, but it doesn't sound-

    22. RHDr Rick Hanson45:02

        Mm-hmm.

    23. CWChris Williamson45:02

        ... like a text message. It's a very specific kind of sound.

    24. RHDr Rick Hanson45:06

        Mm-hmm.

    25. CWChris Williamson45:06

        And it's a sound that you will know and that you can relate to whatever it is that you're trying to do. So for instance, at the moment, Yusuf is trying to focus on, uh, deepening the breath, on breathing-

    26. RHDr Rick Hanson45:17

        Mm-hmm.

    27. CWChris Williamson45:17

        ... into his dan tien, which is, uh, below-

    28. RHDr Rick Hanson45:19

        Yeah.

    29. CWChris Williamson45:19

        ... the navel. And what he's using it for is whenever it goes off, I think it may be three or four times a day, it's this weird little chime that n- anyone else in the room will think it's an email or it's a whatever, but he knows that it's focus on the breath. And using that app, it's free to download, um, and, you know, if you were to, uh, try and come up with a solution to remind yourself to do something a couple of times a day, that's a great option there. I've got a couple of questions that's been, kind of one of them's been burning since the beginning

12. 45:49 – 54:37

    Is deep green realistic today? Reverse-engineering exemplars & modern stress loops

    1. CWChris Williamson45:49

       and you've t- almost touched upon it there. Um, you mentioned that our, um, our zero point setting, our natural setting as animals is to be in this deep green where we feel safe-

    2. RHDr Rick Hanson46:03

       Mm-hmm.

    3. CWChris Williamson46:03

       ... and content and connected. Um, I would wager that the vast majority, and this is kind of a sad comment, I guess, but the vast majority of the listeners-

    4. RHDr Rick Hanson46:13

       Yeah.

    5. CWChris Williamson46:13

       ... will think, "That sounds pretty alien to me. Like, that-"

    6. RHDr Rick Hanson46:16

       Yeah.

    7. CWChris Williamson46:16

       "... that, that status, uh, that living status doesn't sound like ... That sounds like what I aim to achieve, not-

    8. RHDr Rick Hanson46:25

       Mm-hmm.

    9. CWChris Williamson46:25

       ... not what I own on a day-to-day basis."

    10. RHDr Rick Hanson46:29

        Yeah. Yeah.

    11. CWChris Williamson46:29

        Um, so firstly, do you think it's possible to live a consistent life that is in that state? And then secondly-

    12. RHDr Rick Hanson46:39

        Mm-hmm.

    13. CWChris Williamson46:39

        ... the question, the question I've had burning, it's been written at the very top of my notes since we've been talking, is-

    14. RHDr Rick Hanson46:43

        Mm-hmm.

    15. CWChris Williamson46:43

        ... if you were, if you were to take humans from 5,000 years ago-

    16. RHDr Rick Hanson46:47

        Mm-hmm.

    17. CWChris Williamson46:48

        ... how do you think their, um, feelings of satisfaction and daily happiness would compare with us now, and why do you think it might be different?

    18. RHDr Rick Hanson46:56

        Man, Chris, I just feel these topics and questions are right at the heart of the personal and the political. In other words, they're right at the heart of p- personal wellbeing and functioning and they're right at the heart of what our species is dealing with in the 21st century. So, um, I'll try not to blather on.

    19. CWChris Williamson47:16

        Oh, man.

    20. RHDr Rick Hanson47:17

        Shout me out if I do.

    21. CWChris Williamson47:18

        Blather, blather away, Rick. We're all, we're all enjoying it, man.

    22. RHDr Rick Hanson47:20

        Okay, okay. I'll

    23. NANarrator47:20

        ... cut this piece.

    24. RHDr Rick Hanson47:21

        So first off, uh, l- l- let's ... I'll, I'll make two points. One, if you wanna get good at something, study people who are really good at it, right? So, uh, I've done a lot of rock climbing and I'll watch people who are much better climbers than me and I'll imagine moving in my own body like them, and then when I go up on the cliff, I climb better. All right? Study people who are really good at things. In the same way, if we want to get good at happiness and functioning, so we wanna be able to operate at a high level while simultaneously feeling really good inside and being good in our relations with others. I think that people would like that. Well, study the people who've really developed that and really embody that, and generally they tend to be people who've done a lot of inner practice, you know? They're, uh, some of them are-

    25. CWChris Williamson48:11

        We're just talking about Shinzen here, aren't we? We're just, everyone needs to sit in a circle and Shinzen-

    26. RHDr Rick Hanson48:15

        Ah.

    27. CWChris Williamson48:16

        Shinzen can be in the middle and we can just all look at him.

    28. RHDr Rick Hanson48:19

        Well, sure. Or think about-

    29. CWChris Williamson48:22

        (laughs)

    30. RHDr Rick Hanson48:22

        ... the lady ... Think about who taught your preschool when you were in kindergarten. Sometimes a lot of the people that are really far along in their practice, they're not famous-
13. 54:37 – 1:00:42

    Why modern life drives chronic stress: from agriculture to inequality & governance

    1. RHDr Rick Hanson54:37

       That's a great question. So, um, the, the key answer to that is they're basically, humans have two natures. So one, there's our resting state. I call it the green zone for simplicity. Um, but we also, and our animal cousins, the monkeys, the mice, and the lizards, also have a second nature, the red zone, which is fast response, stress response in which we fire up into fighting, fleeing, or freezing. We are very vulnerable to getting triggered into a burst of red zone stressful activity. Mother Nature's blueprint is that those episodes of red zone fight, flight, freeze, um-... uh, stress activity are supposed to end quickly, and then we're supposed to return to the green zone for a long period of recovery. And you can look out into nature and you can see that most of the time, that's the template out there in nature. All right? The problem is, in modern life conditions, since agriculture came in 10,000 or so years ago, um, we chronically are, uh, pushed into, uh, red zone situations including in modern life. You know, we're modern, we have refrigerators, we have pain medication and all the rest of that, and yet you're exactly right. I think most people, um, are jostled into low grade, uh, mild to moderate stress every day, which is not their home base, and which accumulates wear and tear on their body in terms of-

    2. CWChris Williamson56:08

       Why do you think that's, why do you think that's happening?

    3. RHDr Rick Hanson56:09

       Yep. It's-

    4. CWChris Williamson56:09

       What's causing this?

    5. RHDr Rick Hanson56:12

       I think the deep roots of that are in wealth inequality since agriculture came in. I think the constructed, the socially constructed sources of chronic mild to moderate stress are largely rooted in inequalities of wealth and power that emerged after agriculture enabled our ancestors 10,000 years ago to accumulate surpluses and then cities, and all the rest of that, the deep causes. Because if you think about it, um, the way that society operates today is a vast departure from the hunter-gatherer template. And I wanna be really clear, I like my modern conveniences. I like pain control. I like a cold beer.

    6. CWChris Williamson56:57

       Me too.

    7. RHDr Rick Hanson56:57

       I like, I like ESPN. You know what I mean?

    8. CWChris Williamson56:59

       Yep.

    9. RHDr Rick Hanson56:59

       Uh, you're in England, I'm here, or wherever you are. You know, we're communicating. I- I love that stuff.

    10. CWChris Williamson57:04

        Yeah.

    11. RHDr Rick Hanson57:04

        But the problem is, we just look at it, in a hunter-gatherer band, that's the natural template for human politics and life. That's a band of 50 people, about 30 adults, most of whom you know your entire life. Now just think about that as the ways in which we evolved until barely just 10,000 years ago. For 300,000 years of our species, another two million years of tool manufacturing ancestors, close relatives, that's the template, a small band of 30 to 50 people interacting with other bands m- many of whom are dangerous because we're competing for scarce resources. So, we need to cooperate internally and be, uh, fearful and aggressive externally much of the time.

    12. CWChris Williamson57:50

        Mm-hmm.

    13. RHDr Rick Hanson57:50

        That's our template.

    14. CWChris Williamson57:51

        Mm-hmm.

    15. RHDr Rick Hanson57:52

        In those bands, bear with me briefly, there are three conditions enabled healthy politics. Common truth, you couldn't hide the facts. You saw ... You know when you live together with people day in and day out, you see the truth. You know who's lying, you know who's trustworthy, you know who's legit, you know where the money ... You know, you know who's eating more food and sneaking some food away from the group. You, you, you know who's screwing who. You know, you know what's going on in a hunter-gatherer band. But when you start having agriculture and big cities and Game of Thrones-

    16. CWChris Williamson58:25

        (laughs)

    17. RHDr Rick Hanson58:25

        ... and even modern life, you can hide the truth. And in fact in modern times, we have people who attack truth-seeking and truth-protecting. But in hunter-gatherer bands, there's common truth. There's also common welfare. You know, there are minor inequalities of wealth and power in a hunter-gatherer band, but on the whole, you're kin, you are relatives, and also because you're a band, you really need each other. So, if you go down, that hurts me. On the other hand, if you prosper, that helps me. So, we have common welfare. We're- we're really tied together. Again, in a way that is not the case because since surpluses came in and inequalities of wealth and power that are big, rich people can get richer, it doesn't trickle down.

    18. CWChris Williamson59:09

        Yeah, uh-

    19. RHDr Rick Hanson59:09

        Poor people can have a f- can have a famine, it doesn't mean that it impacts the people behind the castle walls.

    20. CWChris Williamson59:14

        Totally right, yeah. The-

    21. RHDr Rick Hanson59:16

        Yeah.

    22. CWChris Williamson59:16

        ... quote from the Bible which is, "From those who have nothing, more will be taken. From those who have-"

    23. RHDr Rick Hanson59:21

        Mm-hmm.

    24. CWChris Williamson59:21

        "... everything, more will be given." It's-

    25. RHDr Rick Hanson59:23

        Mm-hmm.

    26. CWChris Williamson59:23

        (laughs) It's a very, very old concept. O- one part I-

    27. RHDr Rick Hanson59:27

        One last thing, you don't have common justice. The third condition in a hunter-gatherer band, common truth, common welfare, is common justice. You know the leaders, they're leaders, they have power, but eventually honestly, if our band had a leader who was a jerk, after a season or two, you and I and some other men would go whoop him.

    28. CWChris Williamson59:45

        Yeah.

    29. RHDr Rick Hanson59:45

        (laughs) You know what I mean? Or we'd just say, "See you later, asshole. We're gonna form a new band."

    30. CWChris Williamson59:49

        Yeah.
14. 1:00:42 – 1:11:22

    Inner transformation meets outer conditions: hungry ghosts, hedonic treadmill, and agency

    1. CWChris Williamson1:00:42

       Would that be ... So I- I agree with all of your points. However, the- the thing that sticks out in my mind is that I don't think that the people who are at the top of the tree are unbelievably happy either. So the inequality-

    2. RHDr Rick Hanson1:00:55

       That's the district too, isn't it?

    3. CWChris Williamson1:00:56

       Yeah. So i- it's not like I- I- I don't ... I'm- I'm sure that there's a lot of people who are very wealthy and very successful who feel even worse than the- the proletariat, like down (laughs) in the, down in the streets. So-

    4. RHDr Rick Hanson1:01:08

       I think you're right. And that gets to a really deep point which is we can't just fix the objective conditions, we need to internalize the feeling of needs met. Otherwise-... you're right. We're, I grew up in LA around Beverly Hills. The- the Tibetan metaphor is the hungry ghosts, you know, who have godlike powers and enormous appetites but they can't satisfy their appetites. And I agree, that does seem to be the case with a lot of people caught up in wealth and fame. They're not deeply contented and, um, to me the trick is to be able to do both, is to be reasonably, um, you know, have like a, t- to not live in grinding poverty, to have good medical care, to have enough food, you know. A- a billion humans go to bed hungry every night in this planet today. Uh, in America, in my country, a million children go through homelessness every year. You know, one in four- one in five children in America lives below the poverty line and has to face hunger, um, not infrequently. So yeah, we need to do those things, but on the other hand, if we don't have a transformation of the heart, if we don't internalize the felt sense of safe enough, satisfied enough, connected enough, then we're always hungry, then we're caught up in the Buddha's second noble truth of craving, and we're always chasing and trying to pile up our possessions and build up our empire. Frankly, look at Donald Trump, the epitome of a hungry ghost, someone who has everything and yet you could see it in his face, he's miserable inside and in his- and in his own search for a lasting happiness which he's never found, he's harming lots of other people.

    5. CWChris Williamson1:02:49

       We've got that hedonic treadmill again, haven't we? Which the listeners will have heard us mention before as you begin to- your body begins to renormalize to whatever increased state of nicer possessions it is that you get. You get the new car and then after a couple of weeks it's, "Oh, well there- there's another new one that I need now." Um, so final- final-

    6. RHDr Rick Hanson1:03:07

       Well, I- I want to speak to that though ...

    7. CWChris Williamson1:03:09

       Yep.

    8. RHDr Rick Hanson1:03:09

       ... because new research shows that people can actually change the setting on their hedonic treadmill.

    9. CWChris Williamson1:03:13

       Okay.

    10. RHDr Rick Hanson1:03:13

        In other words, and it's- and it goes to what I was getting at earlier about trait. People can build trait happiness and the external source, that's correct, of a spike of happiness like a new car, that tends to fade, but as you repeatedly internalize the feeling of the new car or much more modest things like the l- the little accomplishments you- you- you do every day, as you internalize the feeling of that, more and more you build up a very strong unconditional sense of contentment inside you. So then as you face whether to get the next car, you know, you think about it and maybe you do need a new car and you get a new car, but it's not based on an underlying lack or scarcity inside.

    11. CWChris Williamson1:03:58

        Mm.

    12. RHDr Rick Hanson1:03:58

        Which is the root of the word for want as you- as you know. Um, you know, uh, instead you meet the next pleasure feeling already contented and that really changes things.

    13. CWChris Williamson1:04:09

        It allows you to see it with a much, um, more unhindered viewpoint I suppose, as opposed to you can... Uh, it- this mindfulness gap again, isn't it? So final- final thing, we're gonna- we're gonna-

    14. RHDr Rick Hanson1:04:20

        Yeah.

    15. CWChris Williamson1:04:21

        ... um, interview, we're- you're gonna run a- a little experiment. You're gonna sit down, you're gonna put him on the couch, I know this isn't your, uh, your- your usual way ...

    16. RHDr Rick Hanson1:04:28

        Yeah. Okay.

    17. CWChris Williamson1:04:28

        ... but you're gonna- you're gonna pop him on the couch and he's gonna be, let's say 10,000- 10,000 years ago just before agricultural revolution.

    18. RHDr Rick Hanson1:04:34

        All right. My great-grandfather.

    19. CWChris Williamson1:04:35

        Great-great-XXX grandfather.

    20. RHDr Rick Hanson1:04:38

        Yeah.

    21. CWChris Williamson1:04:38

        Uh, what do you think his mindset's like if we were to compare-

    22. RHDr Rick Hanson1:04:41

        That's correct.

    23. CWChris Williamson1:04:41

        ... him to a modern con- modern human?

    24. RHDr Rick Hanson1:04:43

        Yeah. I think the best comparison are those j- j- you could call them Stone Age P- Paleolithic hunter-gatherers in the world today that are studied, you know, by anthropologists and others, and that's a pretty good guess. I think that, um, he or she, uh, was facing a lot of physical pain, right? In the wild, uh, we're- we're vulnerable to pain. Um, myself, uh, age 66, so I've had things in my body that probably would have killed me, you know, 10,000 years ago were it not for, uh, modern medicine.

    25. CWChris Williamson1:05:17

        Mm-hmm.

    26. RHDr Rick Hanson1:05:17

        So there's a certain amount of pain, food sources are not so reliable, maybe a certain amount of hunger. On the other hand, I think that in his mind, he would feel much more connected in community with his friends and family, there would be much more of a bone deep felt sense of belonging and being loved and- than a typical person probably experiences these days. Loneliness is epidemic and, um, it's interesting research, maybe you had had other people talk about it, l- loneliness, not ... Like I'm an introvert, I like solitude, uh-

    27. CWChris Williamson1:05:52

        Yeah, me too.

    28. RHDr Rick Hanson1:05:52

        ... but that's ... Yeah, that's not being lonely. Loneliness as a- as a unpleasant experience has roughly the equivalent health consequences to smoking half a pack of cigarettes a day. Like, isn't that crazy?

    29. CWChris Williamson1:06:07

        Wow.

    30. RHDr Rick Hanson1:06:08

        In terms of long-term impact, yeah, chronic d- uh, mortality, morbidity. Loneliness imposes health burdens. A lot of people are lonely. I don't think that great-grandfather would feel lonely in that way. I think also that great-grandfather would be spending less time in the ruminator, the simulator.

Episode duration: 1:11:23