How To Develop A Resilient Mind | Dr Rick Hanson

1. 0:00 – 15:00

   (wind blowing) Hello, friends. Before…

   1. CWChris Williamson0:00

      (wind blowing) Hello, friends. Before I introduce today's guest, I wanted to give a massive shout-out to everyone who shared and supported the episode from last week. We ended up in the top 100 on Apple Podcasts worldwide chart for three days, off the back of one episode, which is, uh, absolutely insane. We've also now crossed 3.6 million listen minutes (laughs) in under a year. So thank you very much. Please continue to share the episodes, tell a friend who you think would enjoy them, and rate the podcast if you would, wherever you are listening. It does massively help, and it makes me very happy. Today, I'm sitting down with Dr. Rick Hanson, who is a psychologist and New York Times bestselling author. Now, what's particularly interesting about Rick was that he has a very deep understanding of the esoteric meditation and wellness side of the brain and, and how life can be conducted, but also has a very strong academic background in science as well. So, he is a, a serious (laughs) contender for understanding how the brain works, and today we're talking about Resilient, his new book. It's a very novel topic that I've never actually thought of all that much, and relating it to how we experience everyday life and how it can improve our wellbeing was a, a big eye-opener, and I would be very interested to know if you agree. So, if you do or if you don't, drop me a message on Instagram, Twitter, wherever you find me, @chriswillex. For now, we're going to learn how to be resilient with Dr. Hanson. (upbeat music) Dr. Rick Hanson, how are you today?

   2. RHDr Rick Hanson2:01

      Chris, I'm very happy to be here. And by the way, please call me Rick, or I'll have to call you Mr. Williamson or something.

   3. CWChris Williamson2:06

      (laughs) That's fine. We'll stay informal today.

   4. RHDr Rick Hanson2:10

      Yeah.

   5. CWChris Williamson2:10

      So Rick, what are we going to learn about today? What are you teaching us about?

   6. RHDr Rick Hanson2:14

      Well, you've asked me here to really talk about resilience, which for me is a word that's kinda easy to dismiss, like a cliché we've heard it a million times. But, the essence for me is how do you grow? How? How do you grow an unshakable core of resilient happiness? That's the question. It's easy to be happy when everything's going your way, but in the core of your being, how do you build up an unconditional wellbeing that can deal with the challenges of life and still feel content and at peace inside? So that's what I hope we can talk about.

   7. CWChris Williamson2:47

      Wow, that would be... If I can come up with that by the end of this episode, I'll be an (laughs) incredibly happy man. Uh, so-

   8. RHDr Rick Hanson2:53

      (laughs)

   9. CWChris Williamson2:53

      ... many listeners will probably know you for Hardwiring Happiness. That was a, a New York Times bestseller, right? Um-

   10. RHDr Rick Hanson2:59

       Mm-hmm.

   11. CWChris Williamson2:59

       Was there much overlap between that and the current book you're writing?

   12. RHDr Rick Hanson3:03

       That's a-

   13. CWChris Williamson3:04

       Or like the current book-

   14. RHDr Rick Hanson3:04

       ... great question.

   15. CWChris Williamson3:04

       ... you just released

   16. NANarrator3:05

       I should say.

   17. RHDr Rick Hanson3:05

       Yeah. That book, Hardwiring Happiness, y- kind of you get it from the title. It's the, it's about the fundamental how of growing qualities inside that you, that you care about, like grit, or gratitude, or happiness, or self-worth, love for others, skills of different kinds. In other words, how do we actually hardwire passing experiences that are mostly usually wasted on the brain, but instead, how do we capture them? How do we harvest them and wire them into our own bodies, so we become stronger and happier in general? So that's like the general method, how to fish, and then the book Resilient, it's gonna be a dumb metaphor here-

   18. CWChris Williamson3:43

       (laughs)

   19. RHDr Rick Hanson3:43

       ... is about catching 12 fish. (laughs) You know?

   20. CWChris Williamson3:45

       Okay.

   21. RHDr Rick Hanson3:46

       One of the 12 fish of 12 strengths, that book's about 12 strengths, 12 factors that are based in the evolution of the brain as a kind of framework, but then we get into the practicality of it, 12 strengths inside that bring a resilient wellbeing in the face of life.

   22. CWChris Williamson4:00

       Mm-hmm.

   23. RHDr Rick Hanson4:00

       One of the 12 strengths is learning, so that's the how to fish in general, and then the other 11 are specific fish, like mindfulness, compassion, aspiration, courage, that the book teaches you how to catch, in effect, and w- weave into your own body and so that you have them with you wherever you go. So that's kind of a difference between the two books.

   24. CWChris Williamson4:22

       I get you. So is learning the foundation upon which all of the others are built?

   25. RHDr Rick Hanson4:28

       Yes, and isn't it true that that's the foundation of everything? You know, uh, I, I had this experience when I was a teenager that, when I look back on it, it was like a lot of things that happen when you're a teenager. You blow right by it, and you hardly realize that something has happened that's important for you, you know? But you look back at it later. I was about 15, and I realized that I was utterly unhappy. I was miserable. I was neurotic. I was seriously messed up. Um, I was a mess, and I was kind of in despair, in a way. Like, "What am I gonna do? My crummy family, my crummy school, I'm dead in the water. No one likes me." It wasn't, it wasn't horrible abusive, like some childhoods are, but it was pretty bad, pretty miserable. But the light bulb went off that I could always grow and heal and learn and develop from here, going forward. In other words, I could learn every single day how to be a little happier, how to talk to girls, how not to be such a dork, how to not get so bothered by my parents. You know, I could learn and grow every day, and that is the essence of self-reliance, where you take it on every day. "How can I learn? How can I grow? How can I be a little happier, a little stronger, a little wiser when I go to bed tonight?" And that got me really, really interested in that fundamental process of how do you actually develop yourself, 'cause then, that's the strength of strengths, right? Learning, broadly defined, not memorizing the multiplication table. I mean, like body learning, emotional learning, social learning, spiritual learning. That is the strength of strengths, 'cause it's the one that grows the rest of them. So if you get good at learning, duh, you know, then you can apply it to anything you wanna develop inside yourself or if you wanna help other people.

   26. CWChris Williamson6:08

       Yeah, I think certainly for me, the friends that I'm closest with and the people that I resonate with the most are others that have a passion for learning things.

   27. RHDr Rick Hanson6:17

       Mm-hmm.

   28. CWChris Williamson6:17

       And that's, that's not restricted to academic learning or, uh, k- useless fact learning. (laughs) It's a-

   29. RHDr Rick Hanson6:24

       Yeah.

   30. CWChris Williamson6:26

       ...a virulent hunger for just wanting more, more knowledge or understanding-
2. 15:00 – 30:00

   (laughs) …

   1. RHDr Rick Hanson15:00

      problem by putting gas in the tank, that's not gonna be helpful.

   2. CWChris Williamson15:03

      (laughs)

   3. RHDr Rick Hanson15:03

      You've got to identify, yeah, that it's a flat tire. I'll give you a little example. If people... And a lot of people have a background sense of anxiety. They're anxious. You know, we live in turbulent times. We're, you know, invaded by a lot of media. There are a lot of reasons that are externalized that people feel anxious. And also, different groups are being kind of shoved up against each other. Uh, that tends to stir things up.

   4. CWChris Williamson15:26

      Mm-hmm.

   5. RHDr Rick Hanson15:26

      And then in everyday life, people often have a nagging background sense of, "Am I good enough? Am I performing? Will I get everything done? What do I need to do about this?" Blah, blah. So, it's helpful to look inside and realize, you know, if you are at all nervous or, or edgy or uneasy, and, and that often will then lead people to move into anger, especially men, uh, because o- it's a way to manage anxiety to move into aggression and anger. But at root, it there's an anxiety. So here's the thing. If you practice gratitude, uh, will that make you less anxious? No. Gratitude addresses satisfaction. That's like putting gas in the tank, right? But if you've got a flat tire 'cause you feel threatened by something, you're, you gotta deal with, uh, or inside yourself you feel uneasy just in general, uh, gratitude is not gonna serve you. You need to build up those kind of resources that I talked about previously that are specifically addressed to managing needs for safety.

   6. CWChris Williamson16:23

      So, what's the anxiety respon- What would you recommend-

   7. RHDr Rick Hanson16:26

      Mm-hmm.

   8. CWChris Williamson16:26

      ... to someone who's got this kind of pervasive-

   9. RHDr Rick Hanson16:29

      Mm-hmm.

   10. CWChris Williamson16:29

       ... low-

   11. RHDr Rick Hanson16:29

       Mm-hmm.

   12. CWChris Williamson16:30

       ... low level consistent anxiety-

   13. RHDr Rick Hanson16:32

       Yup.

   14. CWChris Williamson16:32

       ... or unease, general feeling of-

   15. RHDr Rick Hanson16:34

       Mm-hmm.

   16. CWChris Williamson16:34

       ... a- a- of concern?

   17. RHDr Rick Hanson16:35

       Yeah, which is 40% of the population, for sure.

   18. CWChris Williamson16:38

       Is that the stat?

   19. RHDr Rick Hanson16:40

       I'm sure it is at least that. I'm being a little conservative 'cause we're speaking about a background sense of kinda uneasiness or a tendency to go there. Maybe it's not in your mind all the time, but you can go there pretty fast.

   20. CWChris Williamson16:52

       Mm-hmm.

   21. RHDr Rick Hanson16:52

       And, uh, and then you have 10% easily of the population that are pretty clinically anxious. Well, the three resources that I named a moment ago are really good internal strengths. And to repeat the point, which bears repeating, this does not mean not doing things to make the world safer, you know? Like put a stop sign in an intersection or have a, you know, a, a v- good criminal justice system or healthcare system. Uh, I'm in America and, uh, we're working on all these right now.

   22. CWChris Williamson17:20

       Uh, yeah. You got a l-

   23. RHDr Rick Hanson17:21

       Yeah.

   24. CWChris Williamson17:21

       You got a little way to go.

   25. RHDr Rick Hanson17:22

       Yeah, we got, we're a little behind the curve. Well, that, we'll just kinda-

   26. CWChris Williamson17:25

       (laughs)

   27. RHDr Rick Hanson17:25

       ... set that aside for the moment. Um, so building up the felt sense and the visceral core of your body of calm strength, that's a really useful thing to look for h- uh, you know, f- a, a handful of opportunities every day to feel and then take the ten or so seconds, a breath or two or three, to begin the process of hardwiring that experience of the resource, the calm strength into your-

   28. CWChris Williamson17:55

       So can you give us-

   29. RHDr Rick Hanson17:56

       Mm-hmm.

   30. CWChris Williamson17:56

       Could you give us an example of that?
3. 30:00 – 45:00

   I- I- I- it's…

   1. RHDr Rick Hanson30:00

      there's like a place in which you can witness what's happening rather than be hijacked by it, and I, I think of those, by the way, as two fundamental, um, resources also to grow inside. I use the term inner resource or inner strength interchangeably. Mindfulness is a resource. It's a trait. People can develop trait mindfulness, and people can also develop the trait of greater self-awareness, you know, by exploring themselves over time. And then on the basis of those two traits, then you can really steepen your growth curve as you go through your day.

   2. CWChris Williamson30:33

      I- I- I- it's very interesting that, uh, although, o- obviously it makes sense because the science reflects real life, but it's interesting-

   3. RHDr Rick Hanson30:41

      Mm-hmm.

   4. CWChris Williamson30:41

      ... that me as someone who ... and m- my friends and other experiences that we're drawing upon here-

   5. RHDr Rick Hanson30:46

      Mm-hmm.

   6. CWChris Williamson30:46

      ... that aren't informed about the science-

   7. RHDr Rick Hanson30:49

      Yeah.

   8. CWChris Williamson30:49

      ... the approaches that we are finding which are beneficial and that help are reflected in the science. Obviously, that's a- a- it's, um, natural but it's-

   9. RHDr Rick Hanson30:58

      Yeah.

   10. CWChris Williamson30:58

       ... it's nice to hear that that's (laughs) that you're not, uh, you're not comp- as we would say, you're not stood in the wind with your dick out, which is-

   11. RHDr Rick Hanson31:07

       Right.

   12. CWChris Williamson31:07

       (laughs) ... the equivalent of just not knowing-

   13. RHDr Rick Hanson31:09

       Right. Oh, it makes- yeah. Yeah.

   14. CWChris Williamson31:09

       ... not knowing what you're doing and missing, missing the mark. Um, so we, we mentioned about, um, uh, bad sensations, uh, uh, and, and-

   15. RHDr Rick Hanson31:16

       Oh yeah, thank you for that.

   16. CWChris Williamson31:18

       Let's get back onto that.

   17. RHDr Rick Hanson31:19

       Okay. 100%. So, um, first, w- well, I'll do it this way. For me, there's this fundamental, uh, three ways to work with your mind. Just about all the methods I've encountered as a therapist and a long time meditator, uh, fall into three categories. First, you just be with what's there. You feel the feelings, you let 'em flow, you explore them, you have to tolerate your own experience. You just be with what's there. Um, the second great way to practice with your mind is you're trying to reduce the negative. You know, you're trying to prevent it in the first place or decrease it or just release it entirely. And the third great way to practice with your mind is you're trying to grow the good. You're trying to create it, to protect it, to increase it. In effect, if your mind is like a garden, you can witness it pull weeds or plant flowers. Let be, let go, let in. And that framework, let be, let go, let in really is clarifying. So the first thing to do with the negative is to let it be. And I suppressed the negative a long time, which just made it worse 'cause the brain, the mind is not like a flushed toilet. It's more like a septic tank.

   18. CWChris Williamson32:31

       (laughs)

   19. RHDr Rick Hanson32:31

       You know? That stuff

   20. NANarrator32:32

       (laughs)

   21. RHDr Rick Hanson32:32

       ... moves around. So you have to be able to feel it, and that's where l- kinda like you're getting at earlier, these other, uh, resources inside of self-awareness and mindfulness actually ena- enable us to be with our own experience and not be overwhelmed by it. The thing is, um, that I've seen for a long time, I've been working with people for a really long time, and 50% of the battle is to be able to step back from your experience, not act it out, not react to it, and witness it in a space of awareness, to be with it. And that's half the battle right there. It's so important.

   22. CWChris Williamson33:11

       Wow.

   23. RHDr Rick Hanson33:12

       But then we need to let go. So then I would say this, these three ways to practice with your mind gives you a natural sequence that maps to what's happening in the brain as well. So first, we be with what's there. That helps it become immediately less upsetting 'cause we're kinda stepped back from it. We're witnessing the movie. We're not in the movie. And then we move into releasing where like you let tension flow out of your body, you, you know, you yell a little bit, not to freak anybody out, but you get it out of your system. Being real. Um, maybe there are ideas floating through your mind that you realize, "You know, I don't need to believe that crap." (laughs) You know? "I can let that go."

   24. CWChris Williamson33:48

       Mm-hmm.

   25. RHDr Rick Hanson33:49

       Or you realize, "I'm getting caught up in proving my point," you know? Or, "I'm getting attached to a certain goal and it's just not happening. I need to let it go. It's not gonna happen." All right. That's-

   26. CWChris Williamson34:00

       Mm-hmm.

   27. RHDr Rick Hanson34:00

       ... the second great way to practice with the negative. And then the third is to replace what you've released with some positive alternative. That's partly where this idea of matching the resources you're growing to the nature of the challenge and the, in terms of the need that was addressed is really useful. So if you're letting go, let's say, of negative that's more anxious and angry, you can replace it and focus on things like calm strength, feeling protected by others, relaxing your body. If what you released was more related to dissatisfaction like disappointment or frustration or a sense of your life being depressive or blah, you can then b- bring in in the third practice replacements that are things like gratitude, gladness, healthy pleasure, savoring that good glass of wine or that sunset, or accomplishment. That's a really important one to register again and again and again, successful goal attainment, including in small bits like each individual email as you go through your day.

   28. CWChris Williamson34:59

       (laughs)

   29. RHDr Rick Hanson35:00

       Let that in. Yeah. Or then if what you released, I'll finish on this one, is related to connection, so maybe you released feeling hurt by other people or mistreated or resentful or you're getting caught up in kind of grievances and vengeance, speaking of politics these days, but anyway, and in- instead of, you know, so after you've released that, what do you replace it with? You replace it with self-worth or feeling cared about or connected with other people or you grow compassion or self-compassion or confidence that are specifically related to negative material related to connection. So all right. So those three give you a great roadmap for dealing with stuff in the moment, and if you want to, as a bonus, uh, you can do what I call linking in which you're aware of both positive and negative in your mind at the same time. You have to keep the negative small and off to the side, like old feelings of hurt or feelings of resentment, and then in the foreground of your awareness, you focus on the positive material, the beneficial material, um, that's kind of the matched antidote to that negative. So you would be, let's say, in my example, aware simultaneously of feeling kinda hurt, off to the side, like ignored, dismissed, disrespected, but in the foreground, you would be really aware of people who like you, your buds, your buddies, your comrades, um, you know, your friends, your allies who really care about you and love you. And since neurons that fire together wire together, when you're aware of two things at once, especially if you keep the positive bigger, it will gradually soothe and ease and even replace the negative material over time.

   30. CWChris Williamson36:38

       That's, uh, that's a very nice prescriptive framework for, for dealing with thoughts that arise. I'm currently reading, uh, Five Ways to Know Yourself by Shinzen Young.
4. 45:00 – 1:00:00

   Mm-hmm. …

   1. CWChris Williamson45:00

      library of just, like, chimes and stuff, but it doesn't sound-

   2. RHDr Rick Hanson45:02

      Mm-hmm.

   3. CWChris Williamson45:02

      ... like a text message. It's a very specific kind of sound.

   4. RHDr Rick Hanson45:06

      Mm-hmm.

   5. CWChris Williamson45:06

      And it's a sound that you will know and that you can relate to whatever it is that you're trying to do. So for instance, at the moment, Yusuf is trying to focus on, uh, deepening the breath, on breathing-

   6. RHDr Rick Hanson45:17

      Mm-hmm.

   7. CWChris Williamson45:17

      ... into his dan tien, which is, uh, below-

   8. RHDr Rick Hanson45:19

      Yeah.

   9. CWChris Williamson45:19

      ... the navel. And what he's using it for is whenever it goes off, I think it may be three or four times a day, it's this weird little chime that n- anyone else in the room will think it's an email or it's a whatever, but he knows that it's focus on the breath. And using that app, it's free to download, um, and, you know, if you were to, uh, try and come up with a solution to remind yourself to do something a couple of times a day, that's a great option there. I've got a couple of questions that's been, kind of one of them's been burning since the beginning and you've t- almost touched upon it there. Um, you mentioned that our, um, our zero point setting, our natural setting as animals is to be in this deep green where we feel safe-

   10. RHDr Rick Hanson46:03

       Mm-hmm.

   11. CWChris Williamson46:03

       ... and content and connected. Um, I would wager that the vast majority, and this is kind of a sad comment, I guess, but the vast majority of the listeners-

   12. RHDr Rick Hanson46:13

       Yeah.

   13. CWChris Williamson46:13

       ... will think, "That sounds pretty alien to me. Like, that-"

   14. RHDr Rick Hanson46:16

       Yeah.

   15. CWChris Williamson46:16

       "... that, that status, uh, that living status doesn't sound like ... That sounds like what I aim to achieve, not-

   16. RHDr Rick Hanson46:25

       Mm-hmm.

   17. CWChris Williamson46:25

       ... not what I own on a day-to-day basis."

   18. RHDr Rick Hanson46:29

       Yeah. Yeah.

   19. CWChris Williamson46:29

       Um, so firstly, do you think it's possible to live a consistent life that is in that state? And then secondly-

   20. RHDr Rick Hanson46:39

       Mm-hmm.

   21. CWChris Williamson46:39

       ... the question, the question I've had burning, it's been written at the very top of my notes since we've been talking, is-

   22. RHDr Rick Hanson46:43

       Mm-hmm.

   23. CWChris Williamson46:43

       ... if you were, if you were to take humans from 5,000 years ago-

   24. RHDr Rick Hanson46:47

       Mm-hmm.

   25. CWChris Williamson46:48

       ... how do you think their, um, feelings of satisfaction and daily happiness would compare with us now, and why do you think it might be different?

   26. RHDr Rick Hanson46:56

       Man, Chris, I just feel these topics and questions are right at the heart of the personal and the political. In other words, they're right at the heart of p- personal wellbeing and functioning and they're right at the heart of what our species is dealing with in the 21st century. So, um, I'll try not to blather on.

   27. CWChris Williamson47:16

       Oh, man.

   28. RHDr Rick Hanson47:17

       Shout me out if I do.

   29. CWChris Williamson47:18

       Blather, blather away, Rick. We're all, we're all enjoying it, man.

   30. RHDr Rick Hanson47:20

       Okay, okay. I'll
5. 1:00:00 – 1:11:22

   Would that be ...…

   1. RHDr Rick Hanson1:00:00

      how with seven billion plus interconnected people can we recreate the objective conditions for healthy human politics, healthy human governance, which is common truth, common welfare, and common justice? And if we can lay that foundation, which you see some societies, like the EU imperfectly, the UK imperfectly, um, you know, are moving in that direction. But you can also see that elites that are wealthy and want to protect their wealth and power, they attack these three conditions, common truth, common welfare, common justice because that's what enables them to continue living their sweet life to their own advantage, but to the disadvantage of the great majority of other humans.

   2. CWChris Williamson1:00:42

      Would that be ... So I- I agree with all of your points. However, the- the thing that sticks out in my mind is that I don't think that the people who are at the top of the tree are unbelievably happy either. So the inequality-

   3. RHDr Rick Hanson1:00:55

      That's the district too, isn't it?

   4. CWChris Williamson1:00:56

      Yeah. So i- it's not like I- I- I don't ... I'm- I'm sure that there's a lot of people who are very wealthy and very successful who feel even worse than the- the proletariat, like down (laughs) in the, down in the streets. So-

   5. RHDr Rick Hanson1:01:08

      I think you're right. And that gets to a really deep point which is we can't just fix the objective conditions, we need to internalize the feeling of needs met. Otherwise-... you're right. We're, I grew up in LA around Beverly Hills. The- the Tibetan metaphor is the hungry ghosts, you know, who have godlike powers and enormous appetites but they can't satisfy their appetites. And I agree, that does seem to be the case with a lot of people caught up in wealth and fame. They're not deeply contented and, um, to me the trick is to be able to do both, is to be reasonably, um, you know, have like a, t- to not live in grinding poverty, to have good medical care, to have enough food, you know. A- a billion humans go to bed hungry every night in this planet today. Uh, in America, in my country, a million children go through homelessness every year. You know, one in four- one in five children in America lives below the poverty line and has to face hunger, um, not infrequently. So yeah, we need to do those things, but on the other hand, if we don't have a transformation of the heart, if we don't internalize the felt sense of safe enough, satisfied enough, connected enough, then we're always hungry, then we're caught up in the Buddha's second noble truth of craving, and we're always chasing and trying to pile up our possessions and build up our empire. Frankly, look at Donald Trump, the epitome of a hungry ghost, someone who has everything and yet you could see it in his face, he's miserable inside and in his- and in his own search for a lasting happiness which he's never found, he's harming lots of other people.

   6. CWChris Williamson1:02:49

      We've got that hedonic treadmill again, haven't we? Which the listeners will have heard us mention before as you begin to- your body begins to renormalize to whatever increased state of nicer possessions it is that you get. You get the new car and then after a couple of weeks it's, "Oh, well there- there's another new one that I need now." Um, so final- final-

   7. RHDr Rick Hanson1:03:07

      Well, I- I want to speak to that though ...

   8. CWChris Williamson1:03:09

      Yep.

   9. RHDr Rick Hanson1:03:09

      ... because new research shows that people can actually change the setting on their hedonic treadmill.

   10. CWChris Williamson1:03:13

       Okay.

   11. RHDr Rick Hanson1:03:13

       In other words, and it's- and it goes to what I was getting at earlier about trait. People can build trait happiness and the external source, that's correct, of a spike of happiness like a new car, that tends to fade, but as you repeatedly internalize the feeling of the new car or much more modest things like the l- the little accomplishments you- you- you do every day, as you internalize the feeling of that, more and more you build up a very strong unconditional sense of contentment inside you. So then as you face whether to get the next car, you know, you think about it and maybe you do need a new car and you get a new car, but it's not based on an underlying lack or scarcity inside.

   12. CWChris Williamson1:03:58

       Mm.

   13. RHDr Rick Hanson1:03:58

       Which is the root of the word for want as you- as you know. Um, you know, uh, instead you meet the next pleasure feeling already contented and that really changes things.

   14. CWChris Williamson1:04:09

       It allows you to see it with a much, um, more unhindered viewpoint I suppose, as opposed to you can... Uh, it- this mindfulness gap again, isn't it? So final- final thing, we're gonna- we're gonna-

   15. RHDr Rick Hanson1:04:20

       Yeah.

   16. CWChris Williamson1:04:21

       ... um, interview, we're- you're gonna run a- a little experiment. You're gonna sit down, you're gonna put him on the couch, I know this isn't your, uh, your- your usual way ...

   17. RHDr Rick Hanson1:04:28

       Yeah. Okay.

   18. CWChris Williamson1:04:28

       ... but you're gonna- you're gonna pop him on the couch and he's gonna be, let's say 10,000- 10,000 years ago just before agricultural revolution.

   19. RHDr Rick Hanson1:04:34

       All right. My great-grandfather.

   20. CWChris Williamson1:04:35

       Great-great-XXX grandfather.

   21. RHDr Rick Hanson1:04:38

       Yeah.

   22. CWChris Williamson1:04:38

       Uh, what do you think his mindset's like if we were to compare-

   23. RHDr Rick Hanson1:04:41

       That's correct.

   24. CWChris Williamson1:04:41

       ... him to a modern con- modern human?

   25. RHDr Rick Hanson1:04:43

       Yeah. I think the best comparison are those j- j- you could call them Stone Age P- Paleolithic hunter-gatherers in the world today that are studied, you know, by anthropologists and others, and that's a pretty good guess. I think that, um, he or she, uh, was facing a lot of physical pain, right? In the wild, uh, we're- we're vulnerable to pain. Um, myself, uh, age 66, so I've had things in my body that probably would have killed me, you know, 10,000 years ago were it not for, uh, modern medicine.

   26. CWChris Williamson1:05:17

       Mm-hmm.

   27. RHDr Rick Hanson1:05:17

       So there's a certain amount of pain, food sources are not so reliable, maybe a certain amount of hunger. On the other hand, I think that in his mind, he would feel much more connected in community with his friends and family, there would be much more of a bone deep felt sense of belonging and being loved and- than a typical person probably experiences these days. Loneliness is epidemic and, um, it's interesting research, maybe you had had other people talk about it, l- loneliness, not ... Like I'm an introvert, I like solitude, uh-

   28. CWChris Williamson1:05:52

       Yeah, me too.

   29. RHDr Rick Hanson1:05:52

       ... but that's ... Yeah, that's not being lonely. Loneliness as a- as a unpleasant experience has roughly the equivalent health consequences to smoking half a pack of cigarettes a day. Like, isn't that crazy?

   30. CWChris Williamson1:06:07

       Wow.

Episode duration: 1:11:23