How To Find Direction When Nothing Feels Right - Chris Bumstead (4K)

1. 0:00 – 6:58

   Life After Olympia

   1. CWChris Williamson0:00

      You've stopped competing, and you're more tired than ever. How's retirement going?

   2. CBChris Bumstead0:05

      That's a great question. (laughs) It's a very broad question to start. I don't even know where to dive into that. It's both good and bad in different ways, I would say. It's interesting because when people ask me if I miss competing, especially right now with the Olympic coming up, it's like, there's parts that I miss, but I don't wish I was doing it. Like, I trained with Ryan Terry, and like, seeing the mindset he's in, remembering the pressure I felt and everything that came with it, I was like, "I don't wish I was there right now." But there's aspects I miss. I'm happy with my decision, but there's also a lot of, like, feeling of, like, lost and direction and, "What am I doing? Where am I going right now?" And I feel like I filled that up with a lot of busy work, I feel like, in the last year. There's been business, there's been being a dad, there's been just moving on to one thing to another, and I haven't slowed down to really process, like... Life is very different now.

   3. CWChris Williamson0:59

      Mm-hmm.

   4. CBChris Bumstead0:59

      You know, you had 10 years of chasing a single goal of being the best in the world at one thing, that was eat, sleep, train, and now it's gone, you know? So, it's definitely been interesting, but I feel like the fact that I'm feeling a lot now in terms of, like, a bit of stress, this tired in my body, this, like, somatic experience that I might not have had before, it, like, shows that things are coming up that might have been masked by the overwhelming pressure of competing.

   5. CWChris Williamson1:22

      Mm.

   6. CBChris Bumstead1:23

      So there's, like, this side of me discovering, like, the new side of myself, like, this ego death of, like, "Bodybuilding's gone, now who are you?" And then there's this other part of my life that's, like, the most incredible aspect, which is being a father now. You know, my daughter's getting old enough to say my name. Me and my wife are getting the hang of things, we're really starting to find our groove in that, so it's, like, the most beautiful thing in my life, and I feel like they're kind of balancing each other out.

   7. CWChris Williamson1:43

      Mm.

   8. CBChris Bumstead1:44

      But it's still not, like, neutral peace.

   9. CWChris Williamson1:47

      Mm-hmm.

   10. CBChris Bumstead1:48

       But...

   11. CWChris Williamson1:48

       I've heard you say physically and emotionally you don't feel much until you slow down.

   12. CBChris Bumstead1:53

       Yeah. Yeah. That was a big awakening for this year for me. I feel like year after year after year, it's like Olympia, hero's journey, kind of compete, come down, go through it, some type of adverse event, come through it again, win, high, back down, repeat, repeat, repeat. And I was never able to really experience things. And I feel like what I really found out about myself recently is that I, like, constantly feel like I need to improve something in myself, like I constantly need more, I need to progress at something, I need to make my health better, I need to do X more. And I was p- channeling that heavily into bodybuilding, which made me an incredible bodybuilder, but once... What once drove me started to drain me over time. So, it was... Kind of started to alter. And, and now slowing down and not having that singular goal I was working towards, I realize now I'm trying to find all these other external things to progress in, as if I need to be proving to myself that I'm getting better and better, and I can't just rest and be good enough as things are.

   13. CWChris Williamson2:48

       Mm.

   14. CBChris Bumstead2:49

       And I don't think I would've experienced that if I hadn't actually properly retired and stepped away from it. So, it's one of the journeys currently experiencing.

   15. CWChris Williamson2:56

       Lots of things get hidden under momentum and bravado and attention and chaos.

   16. CBChris Bumstead3:04

       Mm-hmm.

   17. CWChris Williamson3:04

       You hide all of the quiet, fleeting thoughts. You're like, "No. Shut up. I don't need to listen to you." (laughs) Like, "Quiet down, subconscious."

   18. CBChris Bumstead3:12

       (laughs)

   19. CWChris Williamson3:13

       "I've got, I've got a competition to win or a podcast to record or whatever."

   20. CBChris Bumstead3:15

       Yeah. I can go to the gym. I can focus on eating. I can do this.

   21. CWChris Williamson3:17

       Yes.

   22. CBChris Bumstead3:17

       Don't think about it.

   23. CWChris Williamson3:18

       Yeah. You get, uh, pulled through those-

   24. CBChris Bumstead3:20

       Yeah.

   25. CWChris Williamson3:20

       ... little fleeting thoughts with the momentum.

   26. CBChris Bumstead3:22

       Mm-hmm.

   27. CWChris Williamson3:23

       And then, yeah... Oh, fuck. All of those fleeting thoughts are kind of... They're not drowned out as easily anymore.

   28. CBChris Bumstead3:32

       Yeah. No, I definitely had this, like, selective emotional efficiency where I could, like, understand what was important to me and how to actively work towards the things, and, like, practical capabilities of applying specific things.

   29. CWChris Williamson3:46

       Mm.

   30. CBChris Bumstead3:46

       You know, like, bodybuilding is important, prioritize life for that. It makes me feel better to do these physical things X, Y, and Z. But I wasn't really feeling the things I needed to feel in the same way. So, like, the practical capabilities of understanding emotion and lining up life so I was in a good place was good, but the ability to express the good and the bad through it, k- the kind of messier side of things-
2. 6:58 – 11:25

   The Addiction to Progress

   1. CWChris Williamson6:58

      I, I had this, uh, journal entry from before I even started the podcast, when I'd started doing personal development, and I remember reflecting on why I always felt like I needed to make progress every single day, and I wonder if this resonates with you. At least part of it, I think, was even if I don't like myself right now, and even if I feel insufficient and not enough right now, if I can project that wh- where I will be in future is going to be better, doesn't matter that I think I might be a little bit of a piece of shit in the moment, because tomorrow will be okay. Like, I don't love myself today but I might love myself tomorrow, because I'm moving in the direction of better, and that's dopamine, and that's reward, and that's progress.

   2. CBChris Bumstead7:46

      Mm-hmm.

   3. CWChris Williamson7:46

      But as soon as that starts to either flatten or, you know, very worst, if it feels like it slows down, you go, "Oh, God, not only am I not enough today, but I might be even less tomorrow, and I need to take my sense of self-worth from somewhere different."

   4. CBChris Bumstead8:00

      Yeah.

   5. CWChris Williamson8:00

      "I need to take it from, God, my honesty, or, you know, my openness, or, uh, mundane successes and boring victories, or the fact that I was kind to that lady at the supermarket today. Like, how pitiful, how small is your life that that's what's going on? It's not grand enough, it's not impressive enough, and you're not moving in the right direction. You always need to be making progress."

   6. CBChris Bumstead8:24

      Mm-hmm.

   7. CWChris Williamson8:25

      So this, um, the addiction to progress and what it feels like to be in progress rehab is, uh, something that I, I, I feel very much as well.

   8. CBChris Bumstead8:36

      Yeah. And I feel like it's a tough battle too, because if you don't have a goal or something you're working to in your life, it feels like your life has no meaning, in a sense. You know, there's like the idea of that gap between, like, the man you know you can be versus the man you are, and it's almost like the meaning you find in life is in the journey between those two.

   9. CWChris Williamson8:55

      Mm-hmm.

   10. CBChris Bumstead8:56

       But it's kind of about the tension between the two, it's so much about the journey. If there's too much tension, if I need to do X to be good enough, or I need X, then it starts to hurt, you know? And it needs to be ... I was thinking about this the other day, it needs to be a f- the goal needs to be a free choice. And I don't think- I don't mean a free choice of, like, someone's making you do it, but like, if you were to think about it, your brain, like, do you think your mind is free?

   11. CWChris Williamson9:19

       That's a good question.

   12. CBChris Bumstead9:20

       As a whole?

   13. CWChris Williamson9:23

       I don't know. That's a good question.

   14. CBChris Bumstead9:25

       It's not easy. Like, of course I'm free.

   15. CWChris Williamson9:26

       Yes.

   16. CBChris Bumstead9:26

       Like, are the decisions you make ab- ... Like, I made the decision to compete in bodybuilding, it's like, "Okay, I did, but am I making - I'm making the decision to stay, technically, but is it a free choice if I feel like I have to do it-"

   17. CWChris Williamson9:36

       Mm-hmm.

   18. CBChris Bumstead9:37

       "... to be good enough?"

   19. CWChris Williamson9:37

       Mm.

   20. CBChris Bumstead9:38

       "If I feel like my self-worth and my identity too is attached to competing now. So this goal I have, this journey I have now has this intense tension because it's not a free choice of ... or a positive choice. It's not a free choice of like, this is wanting to do this, it's like I have to do this to be good enough."

   21. CWChris Williamson9:52

       Mmm.

   22. CBChris Bumstead9:53

       So if you can reevaluate those goals ... And when I started bodybuilding it was kind of just like, the gym was a beautiful place for me to go, and escape, and enjoy it. And I loved it, started to see progress, and it changed over time. It just kind of like shifted into a bit of a pressure and I started to tie my identity to it and, like, kind of like I needed a lot of aspects of it. And I never wanted to. I never wanted to attach my ego to it. I thought I was different because I was aware that attaching your identity to something would be bad.

   23. CWChris Williamson10:17

       Mm-hmm.

   24. CBChris Bumstead10:17

       So because I'm aware that's possible, I'm not gonna do it.

   25. CWChris Williamson10:19

       You knew it up here, but you were still motivated by it everywhere else.

   26. CBChris Bumstead10:23

       Exactly, yeah. It was like a shell game in my mind of being like this illusion I created around myself of like, "Okay, well if I know that I can tell myself I'm not and then just ignore the fact that I really am."

   27. CWChris Williamson10:31

       Yeah.

   28. CBChris Bumstead10:31

       And maybe there's nothing wrong with that.

   29. CWChris Williamson10:32

       It's just a more sophisticated version of cope.

   30. CBChris Bumstead10:35

       Exactly, yeah.
3. 11:25 – 15:27

   What Makes Retirement Difficult?

   1. CWChris Williamson11:25

      ... Were you aware, before you decided to retire and retired, how difficult retirement would be from a existential, uh, w- "Who am I in the world?" place?

   2. CBChris Bumstead11:41

      It's funny, the way my mind works is like a sense of cope. I'm like, "I know it's gonna be hard. It's not now, but I know it's gonna come. But I don't know what's gonna come."

   3. CWChris Williamson11:48

      Mm.

   4. CBChris Bumstead11:49

      And I think what I thought I was going to miss was, like, c- being Mr. Olympia, getting on stage, the pre- all the things in between, but it's like ... The reason I feel like ... I mean, the word's thrown around, but it feels like a genuine ego death is 'cause I was so unaware of what hit me. And one of the moments where it hit me really hard, and I'm not even proud to admit this, is I went on Instagram and I looked at my followers and it was like, "Last month you decreased 10,000." And I was like, "Oh."I felt this feeling in my body that I didn't like that. And I was like, "I've told myself for a decade that I don't give a fuck about that." But it's easy to say when it's just constant skyrocket up, like, "I don't care about the success. I'm not attached to this." And then all of a sudden it was, like, not there, and I was like, it just made me really go inside and be like, "What d- well, like, what was I doing it for? What did I really care about? What was, like, the have to's that I had to do it to be good enough? Was it because of the attention and all the stuff?" Before it was like, the love of the sport, it was love of bodybuilding and then it became this attachment to this, like, need of, like, what came with it. And then I started to love the outcome, you know? When you're doing something for an outcome, you're more, like, bound to it-

   5. CWChris Williamson12:54

      Mm-hmm.

   6. CBChris Bumstead12:54

      ... you're stuck to it, it's creating, like, a tension. And I think I re- that was like a very modern day millennial ego death wake-up for me to be like, "Damn, I thought I was better than that." And then I had to, like, really be honest with myself and be clearly you are attached to that, and now you might lose it all. Would you be okay with that? Would you be okay with it all gone? What's, what's left, you know? And it really made me reflect back on my career of, like, what served me throughout and why I decided to retire, and the fact that, like, I wasn't getting anything from it anymore that was serving me. My values started to shift but I was still doing things in my life that were bringing in more and more success that were separate from my most important values.

   7. CWChris Williamson13:32

      Mm-hmm.

   8. CBChris Bumstead13:32

      And it was almost take- taking away from what my values were. And I feel like one of the most important things I've done in the last few years is, like, consistently reeval- reevaluate my values and try and make decisions based off the highest ones, even if in the moment I don't really feel like it's what I want. So, like, competing, I could have kept winning and I could have kept getting more followers and more money and more fame and more success and more X, but those things weren't of high value to me anymore, you know? Starting to be a family, discovering who I was, being present with my family, having a mind that is emotional and tuned enough to be there for my family, and to enjoy life and to enjoy all the stuff I'd worked for. Those were values that were much more important to me, so then I started to have this, like, different feeling around bodybuilding. And going into the last year, I didn't even, I wasn't enjoying it. It was more of an attitude of, like, "I have to go work out so I can win the Olympia."

   9. CWChris Williamson14:21

      Mm-hmm.

   10. CBChris Bumstead14:22

       Rather than, like, "I get to fucking train today and have the opportunity to be the best in the world if I do it right." It was just this different mindset shift that I realized in myself of why I was like, "This isn't for me anymore. It's time for me to get off the stage because this isn't serving me and this isn't the proper reason," you know? Why you start something typically changes over time, and like I said earlier, like, why you start something might have driven you, but now if it drains you, it's time to reevaluate what you're doing. And that was a huge important thing for me to do and make this decision. And all the stuff are incredible, don't get me wrong. It's not like I don't value having money and attention, like, I'm human, I enjoy it, but it's not what was making me feel good day to day.

   11. CWChris Williamson15:01

       Mm-hmm.

   12. CBChris Bumstead15:01

       It was taking away from my ability to be at home and I would be like, "I have to eat again, I missed a meal. I came to an event and I lost a pound. Am I gonna be, are my legs big enough this year? I feel like my waist got bigger." Like, on that day, that one day, that 10 minutes on stage, am I going to be good enough to be the best in the world? That pulls you away from being present in your day-to-day life 'cause you're constantly-

   13. CWChris Williamson15:18

       Mm-hmm.

   14. CBChris Bumstead15:19

       ... worrying about that. And that's because I became more attached to the outcome than just the love of the game.

4. 15:27 – 22:01

   It’s All About Rise, Not the Result

   1. CBChris Bumstead15:27

   2. CWChris Williamson15:27

      The idea that you're able to talk in this very mindful, elevated, enlightened approach, um, this sort of abundance mindset when everything is going in the right direction-

   3. CBChris Bumstead15:41

      Yeah.

   4. CWChris Williamson15:41

      ... is such a good insight. It's fantastic. You know, it's the, uh, the billionaire that's able to be generous.

   5. CBChris Bumstead15:48

      Mm-hmm.

   6. CWChris Williamson15:48

      Um, as opposed to the person whose wealth is going in the other direction. So, well, how generous are you if things start to feel a little bit more scarce?

   7. CBChris Bumstead15:57

      Yeah.

   8. CWChris Williamson15:57

      Even if you still have lots of money but they're going in the wrong direction. And, um, we spoke about this on stage at the Gymshark event, but modeling somebody's rise, not their result, I think is a really important insight that hasn't fully caught everyone's attention yet. 'Cause when you ask... M- most people that have the platform to be able to give advice have got the platform because they're successful, and if they're successful, that means that they have done something for a sufficiently long time at a grand enough scale for people to consider them an authority-

   9. CBChris Bumstead16:31

      Mm-hmm.

   10. CWChris Williamson16:32

       ... one form or another. But the problem is, you almost certainly are at the beginning of your career, and they, uh, the person at the top of the mountain, they might be able to remember what they were doing six months ago or one year ago or right now and the challenges and the very particular sort of unique elite stratosphere that they're in that they need to deal with. They can't remember what it was like to be a beginner.

   11. CBChris Bumstead16:54

       Yeah.

   12. CWChris Williamson16:54

       So when you ask somebody, "What is the key to success in business?" And they say, "Well, you know, it's all about work/life balance. I think it's very important. You know, you, you need to be using your intuition and your gut." And you go, "Huh. What did you do when you were at my stage?" It's like, "Oh, everything was completely planned out and I didn't have any time for my friends or family." You go, "Right."

   13. CBChris Bumstead17:15

       Interesting.

   14. CWChris Williamson17:15

       "I should probably do what you did when you were my stage, not what you do now that you have the luxury to do whatever you want." And I think with, yeah, talking about how I'm above this, the shallow need for validation and social, uh, love from those around me and the strangers on the internet, you know, it's all, it, it, I don't need it. Well, yeah, you don't, because you have an abundance of it.

   15. CBChris Bumstead17:41

       Yeah.

   16. CWChris Williamson17:41

       You have so much there's a surplus. What happens when it feels like that's been taken away from you? You kind of that old adage of, uh, you don't know what you've got until it's gone.

   17. CBChris Bumstead17:50

       Mm-hmm.

   18. CWChris Williamson17:50

       You don't know what you valued until it starts to decrease a little bit.

   19. CBChris Bumstead17:53

       Yeah.

   20. CWChris Williamson17:53

       So.

   21. CBChris Bumstead17:54

       Yeah, even in, like, the, like, the emotional side of what's driving you. It's like, well, I the whole time thought it was bad to be driven by, like, oh, I'm not good enough so I need to accomplish X to be good enough. And, and it's, I don't think that's a way to live, but maybe that's a good way to start. A lot of people are driven to high levels of success by doing that, and maybe that puts you in a position of abundance, of success to show you the things that y- are important to you, to give you enough confidence, to give you enough life experience to go inside and reflect on ways that you can find lasting, genuine self-worth.

   22. CWChris Williamson18:27

       Mm-hmm.

   23. CBChris Bumstead18:27

       You know, maybe if you're like, "Well, no, you shouldn't do something-"... because you're not good enough. Well then, maybe you never start, you know. Or maybe it makes you an incredible bodybuilder, you go on this huge run and you're able to go on this journey of self-discovery, and then figure it out in the end. But I wouldn't have changed that, going back of why ever I started, even if it was coming from a insecure or bad place, because it got me to the place-

   24. CWChris Williamson18:47

       Mm.

   25. CBChris Bumstead18:48

       ... I am now.

   26. CWChris Williamson18:50

       Especially at the beginning, you just need to use whatever fuel you've got.

   27. CBChris Bumstead18:54

       Yeah.

   28. CWChris Williamson18:55

       And-

   29. CBChris Bumstead18:55

       Just go.

   30. CWChris Williamson18:58

       ... uh, yeah. And this is, again, it's model the rise, not the result.
5. 22:01 – 28:57

   What If Chris Hadn’t Won?

   1. CWChris Williamson22:01

      If you hadn't won, I, crazy world, I know. If you hadn't won, would you have still retired?

   2. CBChris Bumstead22:07

      This year? That's an incredible question. I actually haven't even thought about that. It's so funny, 'cause I went into that year without even, like ... Every year, and my sister one year looked at me in the Olympia and she's like, "Are you ever gonna fucking believe you're gonna win?"

   3. CWChris Williamson22:26

      (laughs)

   4. CBChris Bumstead22:28

      'Cause I would, she's... (laughs) 'Cause, the, it would be the day before the Olympia-

   5. CWChris Williamson22:29

      The time three, or four, or five. (laughs)

   6. CBChris Bumstead22:32

      (laughs) It was, like, in between prejudging and night show when I just dominated the show. She's like, "So, you feel good about it?" I was like, "I don't know. Like, maybe I'll win." She's like, "Are you ever gonna fucking believe that you're gonna win?" Like, and I w- and I didn't. And then the last year I went into that prep and I, like, I didn't even, like, I had those moments of, "Do I love this, do I not?" And I worked my way back to a point of, like, this is the last time and I enjoyed it and I, like, loved the experience.

   7. CWChris Williamson22:52

      Mm.

   8. CBChris Bumstead22:52

      But the whole time it was just like, "Am I gonna do it or I'm gonna... Am I gonna win or am I gonna not compete?"

   9. CWChris Williamson22:57

      Mm.

   10. CBChris Bumstead22:57

       That was what was in my brain. I didn't even think, and it was finally that point where I just believed in myself, where I knew, like, "I know what to do, I know my, what I'm capable of-"

   11. CWChris Williamson23:04

       Mm-hmm.

   12. CBChris Bumstead23:04

       "... and like, I'm gonna come in and win if I do it." So I never even thought about it, but ... (laughs)

   13. CWChris Williamson23:10

       (laughs) That is a champion mentality, right?

   14. CBChris Bumstead23:12

       (laughs)

   15. CWChris Williamson23:12

       Finally, you reached it. Yeah. (laughs)

   16. CBChris Bumstead23:13

       I finally got it, and then I, and then I leave. (laughs)

   17. CWChris Williamson23:15

       Yeah, yeah.

   18. CBChris Bumstead23:16

       Um, but no, yeah, I'd like to believe that I would've retired, or-

   19. CWChris Williamson23:22

       I would have stuck to my principles.

   20. CBChris Bumstead23:23

       ... re- regardless.

   21. CWChris Williamson23:23

       Yeah.

   22. CBChris Bumstead23:23

       And looking back now, I can't, I can't imagine being in a prep right now, you know? And i- like I said, it's very different because my mind did just, like, release all these focuses, where it opened up the ability to realize all the things that I had been holding that might have been creating tension in my life. So I'm in a state right now where I can't imagine trying to lock in and focus on being so selfish at something with a pregnant wife-

   23. CWChris Williamson23:46

       Mm-hmm.

   24. CBChris Bumstead23:46

       ... s- 16 month, year old daughter, life changing like it is. But ... my ego would love to tell you-

   25. CWChris Williamson23:54

       Dude.

   26. CBChris Bumstead23:55

       ... that hell yeah, man. I would've retired regardless. I wouldn't have even-

   27. CWChris Williamson23:56

       That's a, that's also a luxu-

   28. CBChris Bumstead23:57

       ... cared if I lost, I would've been fine.

   29. CWChris Williamson23:58

       Well, it's a luxury belief because you won.

   30. CBChris Bumstead24:00

       (laughs)
6. 28:57 – 34:30

   Choosing Which Path to Follow

   1. CBChris Bumstead28:57

   2. CWChris Williamson28:57

      Did you ever secretly want to quit before but you stuck around due to expectation?

   3. CBChris Bumstead29:05

      I'm still unraveling why I wanted to quit before, but I did announce privately that I was retiring after my fifth win.

   4. CWChris Williamson29:12

      Right, so one year prior-

   5. CBChris Bumstead29:14

      One year prior.

   6. CWChris Williamson29:14

      ... to when you actually did it.

   7. CBChris Bumstead29:15

      In the, and that was the year I had a really bad injury. We had discovered Courtney was pregnant. There was all this stuff going on. There was some personal, all this, like, chaos in my life that was pulling me away from focusing on competing, and I was like, I couldn't handle all of it in the moment, and I was like, "I can't do this anymore," and I was stepping away from it. And I realized I was stepping away from it in fear. And because I had so much external things muddying my decision of is it 'cause I don't love competing or is it 'cause of all these other things going on right now?

   8. CWChris Williamson29:42

      Mm-hmm.

   9. CBChris Bumstead29:42

      The injury that almost made me lose, I should have dropped out but kept pushing through all these things, that I wanted to give myself an opportunity to try again and be in it and be like, "Is this still for me? Can I still do this and love it and want more? Or am I gonna compete again and be like, 'No, I am done'?"

   10. CWChris Williamson29:56

       Hmm.

   11. CBChris Bumstead29:56

       So I actually had this, like, double moment of choosing whether or not I was going to-

   12. CWChris Williamson30:02

       Mm-hmm.

   13. CBChris Bumstead30:02

       ... retire, and that, I feel like that, that was the only time where I was really truly, like... It wasn't even a quitting. It was like a peaceful relief of, "I'm done."

   14. CWChris Williamson30:11

       Mm-hmm.

   15. CBChris Bumstead30:11

       And then hour af- afterwards, and this is why I know this year is so different, 'cause after that Olympia, about a month after, I was like, "Fuck."

   16. CWChris Williamson30:18

       (laughs)

   17. CBChris Bumstead30:19

       (laughs) I was like-

   18. CWChris Williamson30:20

       "I told all of these people in my life."

   19. CBChris Bumstead30:21

       I was like, "Why did I-"

   20. CWChris Williamson30:21

       "I'm gonna have to reverse the tax."

   21. CBChris Bumstead30:22

       I made this huge thing. I cried. I was like, "This is so beautiful." I had a video on my phone I recorded of me, like, talking, and I've only done this once in my life, of me crying in my gym after a workout being like, "This is my last Olympia."... like I got through this injury.

   22. CWChris Williamson30:34

       You didn't even do it-

   23. CBChris Bumstead30:35

       I'm in a good place.

   24. CWChris Williamson30:35

       ... when you actually left the Olympia? (laughs)

   25. CBChris Bumstead30:36

       I didn't do it. (laughs) No, and all the ... It's- it's really cool 'cause there's some, like, unseen, unspoken things that are all ... Like, that video will-

   26. CWChris Williamson30:44

       Mm.

   27. CBChris Bumstead30:44

       ... be in the documentary that's coming out about it also.

   28. CWChris Williamson30:45

       So, that video will be in it?

   29. CBChris Bumstead30:47

       Yeah.

   30. CWChris Williamson30:47

       Oh.
7. 34:30 – 43:41

   How Retirement Has Impacted Motivation

   1. CBChris Bumstead34:30

   2. CWChris Williamson34:30

      Has no longer having the Olympia impacted your drive and passion in other areas of your life? You know, you've got the dad/husband thing, business, k- uh, d- desire to work on yourself in a s- from a personal standpoint. How have you found drive and motivation separate and also wrapped up in what you were doing previously?

   3. CBChris Bumstead34:56

      Mm-hmm. I wouldn't say it directly decreased because there's no Olympia, but I think almost as like a byproduct of what the Olympia was for me, of like a schedule of a year, of like the first half of the year is X. You have some time off. You can recover, give yourself a break, and then you start to ramp up. You travel, focus on business, and then near the end, you go inward. You figure out what's driving you, what's pulling you back right now, self-reflect, spend time away from bullshit, focus on yourself, be selfish, work, it's intense schedule. And like, it was this like organized routine, and then all of a sudden it was all gone. And that on top of the singular goal of being like, "Where do I put my energy now?" I think definitely left me in a place of feeling a little bit lost of not figuring out like where do ... Do I still have the passion for anything? Where do I find that energy to put into something? What do I put it into? Does it even exist? Will it exist again? And then it kinda led to me ... Then I had an injury. I stopped working out for a while, and I just started to wake up in the morning exhausted and not knowing what to do. Going in and helping with this business, going on this trip for Jet Travel, and meeting here was a distribution center about all these little things for all these other things that weren't really, like, driving me. I didn't have like an important big role in them. I was just like kinda coasting through, and I started to wake up and feel pretty lost in general of like, "Where do I pro- where am I progressing to?" essentially, and that was when I was kinda like, "What I'm w-" ... Honestly, I'm still working through it. I don't have this answer, but a thing I'm working for is just like empathizing with myself that I don't need to be constantly progressing towards something, that I don't need to be getting better and have this big goal and doing X, and I can just sit and rest for a while and like truly just like-... do nothing, and be good enough as that is, and let something come and figure it as it goes. And that's a- that was tough for me. It l- it- it is tough for me-

   4. CWChris Williamson36:53

      Mm-hmm.

   5. CBChris Bumstead36:53

      ... and speaking in proper-

   6. CWChris Williamson36:55

      Mm-hmm.

   7. CBChris Bumstead36:55

      ... verbiage of figuring that out.

   8. CWChris Williamson36:57

      Mm-hmm.

   9. CBChris Bumstead36:57

      And the funniest little thing of what has made me feel better recently was working out again on a schedule, and eating five meals a day and weighing out my food, and having that little bit of structure of, like, and not having to, as well. It's like, "All this stuff's going on in my life. I don't know. I'm kind of lost. What can I do?" Well, I can go work out again.

   10. CWChris Williamson37:15

       Mm-hmm.

   11. CBChris Bumstead37:16

       And I don't have to-

   12. CWChris Williamson37:16

       Mm-hmm.

   13. CBChris Bumstead37:16

       ... so now I'm choosing to. "Well, why are you still working out so hard? Why are you training so hard?" It's like, "Well, I just, 'cause I love it."

   14. CWChris Williamson37:22

       It's why-

   15. CBChris Bumstead37:22

       I feel good.

   16. CWChris Williamson37:22

       ... it's why I used to do it 12 years ago.

   17. CBChris Bumstead37:24

       Exactly. And that's all of a sudden I'm getting more and more excited to go back in the gym, where even in prep last year I used to say, "Oh, I have to go work out." And then all of a sudden I sur- start to feel better day to day, and it's these little changes, and I realize, this is truly w- how I fell in love with the gym.

   18. CWChris Williamson37:38

       Mm-hmm.

   19. CBChris Bumstead37:38

       And why I'm such a big advocate of weightlifting. Like, I honestly kind of hope I don't inspire t- people to get into bodybuilding, 'cause it's tough, it's fucked up, it's not good for your health. But I do want to inspire people to go lift weights, get in the gym and want to get jacked, because it's such like, "Oh, I'm lost. I don't know what to do." Just go work out. Apply some discipline, work hard, find something you love that's, like, difficult, that shows you progress, builds confidence, and just go do it. And then from there, then you can clear your mind a little bit, have self-confidence, start looking around a little bit more clear, start looking inward and figuring out what is next for you, and finding that next goal and working towards it. So for me, that's why I like, I just fucking love the gym so much, and I'm so grateful that I'm back to a point of like, loving the gym.

   20. CWChris Williamson38:16

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   21. CBChris Bumstead39:09

       (laughs)

   22. CWChris Williamson39:12

       (laughs) This is the cash value. Or, this was the price that you pay in retirement, I think. You know, 'cause what you're talking about, it's going to be difficult, and things will be hard, and you won't have the, um, the drive or the goal that you used to in the past.

   23. CBChris Bumstead39:30

       Mm-hmm.

   24. CWChris Williamson39:31

       All of those things are kind of fluffy concepts, but they come into land, they actually sort of meet reality with, "I woke up on the morning and didn't know what to do. I felt tired a lot. I didn't want to train. I was short and snappy with my business partners. I- I found myself getting distracted with lots of little tasks, because it made me feel important-"

   25. CBChris Bumstead39:56

       Mm-hmm.

   26. CWChris Williamson39:56

       "... and like people needed me. I packed my calendar out and did..." 'Cause a lot of the time, in advance of something happening, we probably have a good idea about what it's going to be like in the macro. But what we don't know is how it's actually going to appear, manifest in life. And it's navigating those things. So for instance, I've been sick for the last 18 months or so, and that's been hard. And I knew, based on what the trajectory was going to be, what was going to be tough, that I was gonna have a lot of self-doubt, that I was going to lose confidence and self-esteem, that, um, I would feel like I was moving backward. All of these things. Uh, but the way that that actually appears, like the individual building block thoughts that you have, like that mean random little voice, or that one night where you ruminate about that one thing, or you're more sensitive to criticism and that one comment from that person, or just can't really focus on your meditation as much. Like, none of those are, "I am going to lose confidence."

   27. CBChris Bumstead40:58

       Mm-hmm.

   28. CWChris Williamson40:58

       They're the individual incidents that contribute to, "My confidence has gone down."

   29. CBChris Bumstead41:02

       Yeah.

   30. CWChris Williamson41:02

       Even if you knew it was gonna happen in advance, and even if in retrospect you can say, "Oh wow, both of these things converged," each of the little steps that occurred to make that happen kind of come out of nowhere a little bit, because you don't know the effect of each little thing. Does that make sense?
8. 43:41 – 47:16

   How to Work Through a Loss of Direction

   1. CBChris Bumstead43:41

   2. CWChris Williamson43:41

      What would you say to anybody that's lost direction in life, in the way that you have?

   3. CBChris Bumstead43:56

      I would say I'm still in the midst of it, but I do believe it will be for the better. I feel like the path I was on wasn't ... I knew when I was on it, it wasn't the best for me. So, if I stayed on that path, I may but- might not- might not be lost, but I'm not discovering anything else. And at least in being lost, you might discover something new that's better, or different, but still good.

   4. CWChris Williamson44:17

      Mm-hmm.

   5. CBChris Bumstead44:17

      You know? Better is a subjective word, I guess. Nothing will come, be like the Olympia, but things will be incredible in my life. And I would say actively, like I said, the gym has been, like, the thing for me of when I'm lost, it's always there. So having a constant in your life, having something within your control when things feel out of control to just go do, just to give you that little postural upkeep, I think is so crucial. And again, that's why, like, young kids are like, "I don't know, I don't feel a lot, I don't know what to do with my li- ... " Just go work out, go lift weights.

   6. CWChris Williamson44:46

      You'll be fine.

   7. CBChris Bumstead44:46

      Start there.

   8. CWChris Williamson44:46

      It'll be fine.

   9. CBChris Bumstead44:47

      Just get jacked and figure it out.

   10. CWChris Williamson44:48

       Yeah.

   11. CBChris Bumstead44:48

       Obviously you can't just-

   12. CWChris Williamson44:49

       Get jacked, figure it out from there.

   13. CBChris Bumstead44:49

       ... you can't just stick with that, but I think understanding that a lot of people don't feel lost their whole life, but they're just stuck in this, like, box until they're 70 and they're, like, look back and they're like, "How did I get here?" You know? Because they had such a clearly defined path for them, and maybe it wasn't where they wanted to be. So, an op- being lost is an opportunity to stop and slow down and reflect where you truly wanna go. And that's what I'm trying to use that for right now, and being like, "Oh, it's time to do this, that, that, that." It's like, people are like, "What are you gonna do next?" I'm like, "Right now, nothing." I'm not adding anything to my life because I'm trying to figure out what that is and it's okay to be lost right now. Telling myself it's okay to be lost right now-

   14. CWChris Williamson45:26

       Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

   15. CBChris Bumstead45:26

       ... dear Christopher.

   16. CWChris Williamson45:27

       Yes, yes.

   17. CBChris Bumstead45:28

       It's okay to be lost right now. It will get better and you'll figure it out, and just do what you can, fill yourself up right now, learn who you are in this season of life, and-

   18. CWChris Williamson45:36

       Mm-hmm.

   19. CBChris Bumstead45:37

       ... just trust that whatever will come, will come.

   20. CWChris Williamson45:40

       Isn't it, uh, poetically ironic that the thing you walked away from was the thing that you needed to give you structure after you'd walked away from it? Th- the gym was the, kind of the thing that I left behind.

   21. CBChris Bumstead45:52

       Mm-hmm.

   22. CWChris Williamson45:52

       And when I worked out what it was that I needed to do in order to get myself at least back in a good state of mind, it was, "Go back to the gym again."

   23. CBChris Bumstead45:58

       Yeah. Yeah. Everyone needs some kind of constant in their life. And the, the true cheat code is relationships.

   24. CWChris Williamson46:06

       How so?

   25. CBChris Bumstead46:10

       Just the ability to be seen by someone else, I feel like is such a cheat code for life. If you're feeling lost, and you feel alone, there's, like, the genuine, the word loss. Would you rather be in a forest by yourself or with someone else who, who g- is lost with you?

   26. CWChris Williamson46:27

       Mm-hmm.

   27. CBChris Bumstead46:27

       It's so, it's just such a drastic thing. And I feel like the, being able to be with someone through hard times and understanding, it's like, I'm dealing with all these issues of identity. I'm losing this, I'm losing that. Did people like me for this? Am I losing followers now? Am I gonna be the same? Is this gonna, still be a part of my life? Do I still care about this? But when I go home, my wife doesn't treat me different. She doesn't see me different. She just sees what I'm going through and loves me the exact same no matter what I'm doing externally, whatever success I have. That's, it's like, can't define it better than a cheat code for life. There's no better confidence and ability to believe in yourself than when someone else does and when they see you no matter what, and you feel safe to be whatever you need to be with them.

   28. CWChris Williamson47:10

       Whether you win, whether you lose, whether you stop, whether you keep going-

   29. CBChris Bumstead47:13

       Yeah.

   30. CWChris Williamson47:13

       ... I'm still here.
9. 47:16 – 55:54

   Where Does Chris Find Self-Worth?

   1. CWChris Williamson47:16

      Where does your self-worth come from now, then? I think that's the, if there's challenges with sort of the structural side, what does my day look like? What do I do?

   2. CBChris Bumstead47:28

      Mm-hmm.

   3. CWChris Williamson47:28

      What am I working toward? There is sort of a moment to moment, who, who am I and why am I important? And I've lost followers. Oh my God, uh, I'm irrelevant. People don't care about me so much anymore.

   4. CBChris Bumstead47:39

      Yeah.

   5. CWChris Williamson47:39

      Who's the next hot thing that's, whatever. Um, where do you think about self-worth coming from post-retirement?

   6. CBChris Bumstead47:53

      I would say, by genuinely knowing and believing that I'm living up to what my most important values are. Like, for example, if I wanna be a good father, if I know I'm showing up as being a good father, that's my value, that's within my control, then I feel good. But the difference of that or if like, oh, I want my daughter to love me or be happy with me, or whatever it might be, something like that is out of your control in the moment, and those are what I would worry for, where if my daughter looked at me and she's like, "I hate you, Dad." Which probably will inevitably happen at some point, and then my self-worth is attached to her not hating me. So then I have a crumble, and I believe it, and then I act in a certain way rather than being able to dissociate with that and be like, "What are my values? Being a good dad. Am I being a good dad?" Yes, I know I have been being a good dad. My self-worth isn't attached to her not saying she hates me. It's in how I know I show up.

   7. CWChris Williamson48:45

      Mm-hmm.

   8. CBChris Bumstead48:46

      And in believing in my character and who I'm being, so when she says, "I hate you, Dad," I can not react to that and be able to be like, "Something's going on with her. What is she experiencing?" And I don't have to have this selfish response of, "Well, I need to get her to love me now." It's like, no, she's hurting right now. Let me be there for her. And I feel like that that is, I mean, that's double cheat code of being a good dad and having controlled self-worth, but learning to apply your values, or learn what your values are and live by them in a way that they're within your control.

   9. CWChris Williamson49:14

      Mm-hmm. Well, I mean-... how wonderful it would be if people could do that in the Olympia. "I didn't win this year, but I did my best, I gave it my all, I did all the rest." Yeah. It seems like... I don't know, I'm trying to work out what the difference is between those two pursuits, right? A, a "be good dad" is process, "raise daughter well" is outcome, right? Something like that. Like-

   10. CBChris Bumstead49:39

       Yeah.

   11. CWChris Williamson49:39

       ... whatever the, whatever the way that the child interacts with me being a good dad is, right?

   12. CBChris Bumstead49:45

       Mm-hmm.

   13. CWChris Williamson49:45

       So even if there isn't specifically an outcome. We could come up with some equivalent equation for the Olympia, like, um, train and eat in a disciplined manner, right?

   14. CBChris Bumstead49:57

       (laughs)

   15. CWChris Williamson49:57

       Win Olympia-

   16. CBChris Bumstead49:58

       Right.

   17. CWChris Williamson49:58

       ... is maybe one of the outcomes. But those two things aren't necessarily linked. You can do the first one and not get the second one.

   18. CBChris Bumstead50:03

       Exactly.

   19. CWChris Williamson50:03

       And you can get the second one without necessarily doing all of the things of the first one.

   20. CBChris Bumstead50:07

       Yeah.

   21. CWChris Williamson50:07

       I'm sure that you had cheat meals at some point.

   22. CBChris Bumstead50:09

       Yeah.

   23. CWChris Williamson50:09

       Someone else will have done too, but for some reason, the constitution that you have and the way that you approached it, your cheat meals, and volume of, and missed s- reps, individual missed reps, and, you know, shortcuts and stuff, allowed you to still win-

   24. CBChris Bumstead50:26

       Mm-hmm.

   25. CWChris Williamson50:26

       ... at the end, and for somebody else doesn't.

   26. CBChris Bumstead50:29

       Yeah.

   27. CWChris Williamson50:29

       So, I, I, my point is, I wonder whether it's easier to be a bit more embodied, and mindful, and sort of gentle, and, um, like, not philanthropic, but, like, charitable? Sort of, like, giving in that way and less es- a- attached to the outcome because it's more resonant and it's more in, inner, than it is, "And I will get the accolade on stage-"

   28. CBChris Bumstead50:58

       Yeah.

   29. CWChris Williamson50:58

       "... and I will..." Which is maybe why the sort of classic tiger mom archetype of the parents who are living vicariously through the performance of their children are stricter with their kids than they've ever been with themselves.

   30. CBChris Bumstead51:11

       Yeah.
10. 55:54 – 1:04:39

    Deciding How to Step Away on Your Own Terms

    1. CWChris Williamson55:54

       dude. I think about this so much. Uh, um, sacrificing the thing that you want for the thing that's supposed to get it-

    2. CBChris Bumstead56:01

       Mm-hmm.

    3. CWChris Williamson56:01

       ... is, uh, it's kind of like, uh, again, equations, seems like a theme this week, equations, um, it's one of these little sequences that seems to show up a lot. So, don't sacrifice happiness in order to achieve success, so that when you're finally sufficiently successful, you can give yourself permission to be happy. And you say, "Well, maybe I can just..." If you, if it was an equation, you could sort of just cross off success on both sides, and you're left with happiness.

    4. CBChris Bumstead56:29

       Yeah.

    5. CWChris Williamson56:29

       Right? You're making yourself miserable in the pursuit of an outcome that hopefully can make you sufficiently successful to make you happy. You go, "Okay, that feels like sacrificing the thing you want for the thing which is supposed to get you the thing that you want." Um, but we're not perfectly logical, rational creatures. We are social animals. We need validation, and we want to feel recognized, and we wanna look back and go, "Fucking... Like, I made a dent in the world. Like, I actually, I, like, hit it, and I've left a mark there."

    6. CBChris Bumstead57:01

       Mm-hmm.

    7. CWChris Williamson57:02

       "And that's fucking cool."

    8. CBChris Bumstead57:03

       Yeah.

    9. CWChris Williamson57:03

       Uh, as opposed to however many people just, you know, orange robes in a-

    10. CBChris Bumstead57:08

        Yeah.

    11. CWChris Williamson57:09

        ... a cave somewhere, which I can see you pivoting to at some point.

    12. CBChris Bumstead57:12

        Maybe, and maybe I'll put-

    13. CWChris Williamson57:12

        Well, you've got the hair transplant, so you can't do the bald thing anymore, so.

    14. CBChris Bumstead57:15

        I can still shave my head.

    15. CWChris Williamson57:16

        All right, whatever.

    16. CBChris Bumstead57:16

        Bick it.

    17. CWChris Williamson57:17

        Um, but that, that sequence, you know, you are a, um, hard-charging, uh, woman in that career, and things are going real great, and you sort of have it in your head, "Yeah, I think, I think kids would be, would be really, really good." Well, okay, you're going to sacrifice something that you know already does give you a sense of well-being and fulfillment and recognition and validation and safety, which is your career and all of the accoutrements and-

    18. CBChris Bumstead57:49

        Mm-hmm.

    19. CWChris Williamson57:50

        ... stuff that come along with it, for a thing that you have an inclination might be good for you, but you have real no idea about whether or not it is. So, okay, you're telling me that y- I should sacrifice what I have verifiable information does make me happy for the thing that I have, like, a hint that it might be fulfilling, might be more fulfilling. Uh, well, how long do I need to stay in the career before I feel like I've got, like, career saturation or even fulfillment saturation or something from this?

    20. CBChris Bumstead58:22

        Yeah.

    21. CWChris Williamson58:23

        And then I can pivot into this other mode. Again, like the booster rocket thing, I've, I've spent this fuel, and then I've got this next booster rocket, and then I've got this next thing. And, um, I think a lot about the bravery that is needed to be able to say goodbye to something like that.

    22. CBChris Bumstead58:42

        Mm-hmm.

    23. CWChris Williamson58:42

        Like, I know that this thing gives me a sense of self-worth and fulfillment. Fuck, that quiet voice in the back of my head keeps getting louder, and it just keeps saying the same thing, which is, "This isn't right for you, and you should probably try this other thing." And how many people are trapped by loss aversion, fear, uncertainty, lack of self-belief, scarcity mindset?

    24. CBChris Bumstead59:08

        Yeah.

    25. CWChris Williamson59:09

        I don't think that I can make that jump. And you, I, I was trying to think about this when I was filming the interview for your doc with Mark, and, uh, and I had it in the back of my mind. I, ev- everybody was like, "How many times is he gonna stick about? Like, you know, is he gonna do, go for six, go for seven, do whatever?" And I had it in the back of my head. I was like, "How many athletes have left their sport in their prime or maybe even before their prime, right?" Like, there's nothing that says that 31-year-old you, title seven, wouldn't have been better.

    26. CBChris Bumstead59:46

        Mm-hmm.

    27. CWChris Williamson59:46

        Like, who does that? No one. No one does that. No one does that at all. I told Mark this. No one does that. Nobody gets even close to thinking, 'cause you finally fucking arrived, right? You just got there, and now you're gonna voluntarily leave. Right? You work your entire life to get to this esteemed stage, this, you know, very exclusive VIP party of one, and now that you've got access to it, you're like, "Yeah, I'm done." Nobody does that. I mean, Michael Jordan briefly did baseball, I suppose, but most people, most champions especially, are forced into retirement due to some sort of an injury. They, um, can see the writing on the wall in terms of where their arc is, which is sort of the Jon Jones approach, like, " (groans) Don't think I'm gonna be able to make it on this next one. Like, I'll, I'll leave it there." Uh, or they stick about so long that Floyd Mayweather's 50 fights, 51, 52, 53, 54, like, who are we gonna fight next?

    28. CBChris Bumstead1:00:43

        Yeah.

    29. CWChris Williamson1:00:44

        Um, just can't say no and can't stop. Uh, so I, for me, I think it was, especially in our world, fitness, bodybuilding stuff, a much needed example, a much, uh, a very important, uh, role model situation of what happens if you decide to step away from something on your own terms, 'cause people say I did it on my own terms. But it's like, was it really? Did... You had an injury no one knew about. You had some something coming up. You...So, yeah, it's... But I guess, how much was it on your own terms? Because you were an out of motivation, right? Like, you... If someone held a gun to your head, I'm sure you could have done it for one more year. But, like, I don't know. Just, I, I, I think it's, uh, an important example for people to see a world champion, multi-time world champion decide to step away when he could have got better, not when he was on the decline. I think it's a-

    30. CBChris Bumstead1:01:46

        Yeah. And I feel like a lot of people think, like, everything's very black and white. Like, they're waiting for it to be like, "I hate bodybuilding, and I'm done, and I love being retired." But, life doesn't work like that, you know? Multiple things-
11. 1:04:39 – 1:13:04

    Unteachable Lessons You Have to Experience First-Hand

    1. CWChris Williamson1:04:39

       I had this idea of unteachable lessons, which are these types of insights in life that you can't accumulate without learning for yourself firsthand. Like, uh, money won't make you happy, fame won't fix your self-worth problem, um, you don't love that girl, she's just hot and difficult to get, uh, you should see your parents more, um, you don't need to work so hard, et cetera, et cetera. Like, it just keeps going. And there's a lot of criticism whenever people talk about this on the internet for a couple of reasons. First off, it sounds like a luxury belief.

    2. CBChris Bumstead1:05:09

       Yeah.

    3. CWChris Williamson1:05:09

       Right? It's easy to say, "Money w- won't make you happy if you have lots of money."

    4. CBChris Bumstead1:05:14

       Well, it is a luxury belief.

    5. CWChris Williamson1:05:15

       Yeah. Well, no-

    6. CBChris Bumstead1:05:16

       In- in a way.

    7. CWChris Williamson1:05:16

       You're right, it is a luxury belief, but it's also a luxury dream that money will fix-

    8. CBChris Bumstead1:05:21

       Yeah.

    9. CWChris Williamson1:05:21

       ... my problems of happiness, that fame will fix my safe- self-worth problem. Because at least the person who's at the bottom of the ladder still has the belief that there is a solution. The person that's at the top of the ladder is now rich and famous and still fucking miserable and doesn't have any self-esteem. It's like, "Oh, I thought, I thought that thing was going to... You're telling me that the external solution won't fill my internal void."

    10. CBChris Bumstead1:05:46

        Mm-hmm.

    11. CWChris Williamson1:05:46

        "Oh, fuck. Now I need to... Now I actually really need to do some inner work." The person that is on the come up, but... And both of them will be jealous of each other. It's like, "I wish I had your hope." "Well, I wish I had your situation." So I- I- I do get it.

    12. CBChris Bumstead1:05:59

        Mm-hmm.

    13. CWChris Williamson1:06:00

        But, um, the thing about these unteachable lessons is trying to tell anybody about them is really interesting and almost exclusively pointless-

    14. CBChris Bumstead1:06:16

        Mm-hmm.

    15. CWChris Williamson1:06:16

        ... I think. I- I don't think that people can speed run this through insight. Um, I don't think that, uh, Urs or Ramon, Raymon, uh, the two guys that are sort of maybe battling for your now vacant title this year-

    16. CBChris Bumstead1:06:30

        Well, Urs, Urs is in the open now.

    17. CWChris Williamson1:06:32

        Oh, has he?

    18. CBChris Bumstead1:06:32

        Yeah.

    19. CWChris Williamson1:06:32

        He's got too big?

    20. CBChris Bumstead1:06:33

        Yeah.

    21. CWChris Williamson1:06:34

        All right. Well, so who's gonna be the two front runners?

    22. CBChris Bumstead1:06:37

        Probably Mike Sommerfield, Ramon, Terrence Ruffin, maybe.

    23. CWChris Williamson1:06:42

        Okay. Those guys.

    24. CBChris Bumstead1:06:44

        Those guys.

    25. CWChris Williamson1:06:44

        I'm not gonna look at you and be like, "Chris said it didn't even matter. Chris said that y- holding his daughter was the most important thing. Oh, I should just shortcut my..."

    26. CBChris Bumstead1:06:51

        Yeah.

    27. CWChris Williamson1:06:51

        You know? It's not, it's not the way it works. And, um, people are critical of something that s- sounds like a trite, well-worn cliche, platitude-y thing, because they go, "Yeah, money won't make you happy. Yeah, whatever. Fame won't fix your self-worth. Heard it before." And you go, okay, first off, if something has been repeated enough times to be obvious and trite, it might be because there's some truth in it. And secondly...... if it's not true, why does almost everyone who reaches this kind of destination so reliably start to proclaim it like they've just gone through fucking religious revelation? Like, well, do you think that there's some weird cabal secret community when people get to a certain level of wealth? When you hit your first million or something that they message and go, "Hey, by the way, you need to tell all of the poor people that it doesn't actually make you happy so that we can keep the wealth for themselves."

    28. CBChris Bumstead1:07:54

        Just so they don't get here.

    29. CWChris Williamson1:07:54

        Yeah, exactly. It's like, no, it's not, it's because everyone arrives at the same place and has the same realization, which was, "Fuck, I thought that this thing was gonna fix my internal problem. It doesn't. I've got the thing and I'm still, I still feel the same way about myself that I used to."

    30. CBChris Bumstead1:08:08

        In like a-

Episode duration: 2:00:06