How To Find & Maintain A Happy Relationship | Relationships 102

Relationships 101 landed in the Top 50 Chart Worldwide on Apple Podcasts, and now it's time for the sequel. Jonny & Yusef join me today as we use our successes & tragedies in dating to establish some principles & strategies to optimise relationships, maximise happiness and avoid heartbreak (where possible). Expect to learn why "seeing" someone is a no man's land of emotional turmoil, why we all believe that the truth is a super power and why the first 6 weeks of a relationship are the most crucial. - Video editing & production by Dean Hindmarch https://www.deanhindmarch.com/ https://www.instagram.com/deanhindmarch - Listen to all episodes online. Search "Modern Wisdom" on any Podcast App or click here: iTunes: https://itunes.apple.com/gb/podcast/modern-wisdom/id1347973549 Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/0XrOqvxlqQI6bmdYHuIVnr?si=iUpczE97SJqe1kNdYBipnw Stitcher: https://www.stitcher.com/podcast/modern-wisdom - I want to hear from you!! Get in touch in the comments below or head to... Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/chriswillx Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/chriswillx Email: modernwisdompodcast@gmail.com

Chris WilliamsonhostJonnyguestYusefguest

Oct 29, 20181h 21mWatch on YouTube ↗

EVERY SPOKEN WORD

150 min read · 30,167 words

0:00 – 0:15
Intro
1. CWChris Williamson
  Relationships 102. Johnny and Yusuf from Propend Fitness are joining us again. Relationships 101 went down really well.
0:15 – 1:11
Relationships 101
1. CWChris Williamson
  If you haven't watched it, link will be in the description and video guiding will make it appear around our heads.
2. JOJonny
  That's where that- that clip of you saying, "It doesn't have to be better, it just has to be different," is from.
3. CWChris Williamson
  It is indeed, man. That Family Guy-
4. YUYusef
  Why men cheat, as explained by Family Guy.
5. CWChris Williamson
  Man.
6. YUYusef
  Very BuzzFeed-y video, but oh well.
7. CWChris Williamson
  Oh, crazy BuzzFeed-y, but went- went down well. So today we are going to do Relationships 102. I think we're gonna talk a little bit more about how to cultivate a good relationship, some principles that you can stick to. I've got some comments to make about what seeing someone means, which is a no man's land of emotional distress. So Relationships 102. Where did we leave off last time?
8. YUYusef
  We- we talked about the initial phase of like having me- met someone to beginning a something, some-
9. CWChris Williamson
  Something slightly more exclusive.
10. YUYusef
  ... continued. Yeah.
11. CWChris Williamson
  Yeah. I think, I wanna, I- I'm gonna delve straight in.
1:11 – 3:25
The No Mans Land
1. CWChris Williamson
  I don't know whether you two, because both of you are kind of like serial monogamists, right? Ish.
2. YUYusef
  Y- yeah.
3. CWChris Williamson
  Like f- at least in recent-
4. YUYusef
  Ish.
5. CWChris Williamson
  ... recent memory as far as-
6. JOJonny
  Certainly recently, yeah.
7. CWChris Williamson
  Yeah, um, and I think there's a, for anyone who's listening who's been used to being single and hasn't been in like a proper, proper relationship for a little while, you will know the no man's land of emotional turmoil that is seeing somebody.
8. JOJonny
  Mm-hmm.
9. CWChris Williamson
  And I think that that, it is just an absolute barren wasteland of nothingness, meaningless, like it is one step above having sex with being s- friends with benefits.
10. JOJonny
  Mm-hmm.
11. YUYusef
  Mm-hmm.
12. CWChris Williamson
  And everything below being exclusive.
13. JOJonny
  There's a bit of commitment but no reward.
14. CWChris Williamson
  So I think anyone who's seeing somebody, unless it's mutually and absolutely transparently explained to both parties, just needs to give up on it now. You need to either step forward into a relationship or-
15. JOJonny
  Mm-hmm.
16. CWChris Williamson
  ... step back into having sex with other people as well. And I'll explain why. (laughs) What are you laughing at?
17. YUYusef
  Um, just you reminded me about the friends with benefits things, and I, uh, David was talking about this too that we, I think if you're just nice to someone who is a friends with benefit, a friend with a benefit-
18. CWChris Williamson
  Yeah.
19. YUYusef
  ... their assumption, because they're on the- the defensive is like, "Whoa, whoa, don't fall in love with me now." And you're like, "All right, lettuce head, like I'm not gonna fall, I'm- I'm just- just being nice."
20. CWChris Williamson
  Yeah.
21. YUYusef
  But it's like the instant fear that the other person is becoming too attached.
22. CWChris Williamson
  Yeah. So I think the reason that I don't like seeing somebody, and I can speak from personal experience on this, what you think you're getting when you start seeing somebody is all of the benefits of having a regular girlfriend or boyfriend with none of the, "It's down the far side, mate. Are you drinking? You're gonna have to reach." Um, with none of the disadvantages, with none of the, um, justification for them to ask you where you've been or who you've been messaging or whatever. You wanna be able to have your cake and eat it, and I think that people believe that that's-
23. YUYusef
  This is friends with benefits or this is seeing someone?
24. CWChris Williamson
  No, this is see- seeing someone. Um, I think friends with benefits, like it just so quickly turns into seeing someone now. And the- the way that you pull that back, the only way that you can do that, and the only way you can fix it, is by
3:25 – 4:48
Seeing Someone
1. CWChris Williamson
  being completely transparent about exactly what's going on and continuing to do it all the time. But what happens so much-
2. YUYusef
  And long term friends with benefits, like truly situation has to either be two psychopaths or two really busy people that just have very, very much-
3. CWChris Williamson
  Utilitarian transactional relationship.
4. YUYusef
  Mm-hmm.
5. CWChris Williamson
  Like I need something from you, you need something from me, a little bit of companionship, a lot of sex.
6. YUYusef
  It's almost like bi, it's bilateral prostitution where the- the feet cancels each other out and so they're both at break even again.
7. CWChris Williamson
  Yeah. Fair. (laughs)
8. YUYusef
  (laughs)
9. JOJonny
  (laughs)
10. CWChris Williamson
  You're laughing at bilateral prostitution?
11. JOJonny
  It was just the way you, that you delivered it from a place of anger and then you looked at me like... (laughs)
12. YUYusef
  Anger.
13. CWChris Williamson
  So, um, yeah, I think seeing someone is just, it's a- a- a terrible position to be in.
14. JOJonny
  So you're- you're repeatedly having sex with the same person?
15. CWChris Williamson
  Yeah.
16. JOJonny
  Are there-
17. CWChris Williamson
  It's- it's not-
18. JOJonny
  Does anything else happen?
19. CWChris Williamson
  No. So it's seeing someone is being boyfriend or girlfriend with a partner without being the title.
20. YUYusef
  Without the label. Okay.
21. CWChris Williamson
  Yeah.
22. JOJonny
  Okay.
23. CWChris Williamson
  It's what people believe, and what they think-
24. JOJonny
  That just feels pedantry 101 to me. Like I don't understand where-
25. YUYusef
  Well, it's a precursor, isn't it? It's- it's where both parties are too afraid to...
26. JOJonny
  What to say?
27. YUYusef
  Yeah, or they feel like it's too early.
28. JOJonny
  So you're let, you're spending a bit of time at each other's houses maybe.
29. CWChris Williamson
  Mm-hmm.
30. JOJonny
  Go for food.
4:48 – 5:44
Facebook
1. JOJonny
  it.
2. CWChris Williamson
  ... I mean, the universal language, the universal currency of this is, is it Facebook official?
3. JOJonny
  Yeah.
4. CWChris Williamson
  Like if it's not listed on Facebook-
5. JOJonny
  It's a great system.
6. YUYusef
  Have you ever listed a relationship on Facebook?
7. CWChris Williamson
  Yeah.
8. JOJonny
  I have.
9. YUYusef
  Really?
10. JOJonny
  I mean, why not?
11. YUYusef
  Like, "Jonathan is seeing..."
12. JOJonny
  It's on my profile now.
13. YUYusef
  (hiccups)
14. JOJonny
  Exactly. That's exactly what it's like.
15. CWChris Williamson
  There you go. That's what you think.
16. YUYusef
  That was a hiccup of shock.
17. CWChris Williamson
  Um...
18. JOJonny
  (laughs)
19. YUYusef
  (laughs)
20. CWChris Williamson
  It's the diaphragm going (gagging noise)
21. JOJonny
  Why- why- why not?
22. CWChris Williamson
  You don't like personal information being out in the open world, do you?
23. YUYusef
  Absolutely not, especially not a relationship. I just think that's nobody's business.
24. CWChris Williamson
  Interesting.
25. YUYusef
  But-
26. JOJonny
  Well, it's my business and the other person's business.
27. YUYusef
  Yeah.
28. JOJonny
  And I suppose your business, Chris's business.
29. CWChris Williamson
  To a degree.
30. YUYusef
  Is it Facebook's business?
5:44 – 11:10
Game of Emotional Chicken
1. CWChris Williamson
  I think people believe that seeing someone is this wonderful best of both worlds scenario where you're gonna get companionship but also freedom. And what actually inevitably-
2. JOJonny
  Mm-hmm.
3. CWChris Williamson
  ... ends up happening is it's a game of emotional chicken with the other person.
4. JOJonny
  Thinly sliced.
5. CWChris Williamson
  Thinly sliced chicken in a pressure cooker. And what- what you're play, the way that the game of chicken works is whoever gets feelings first, loses.And it just ends up, it's a countdown clock to someone doing something which crosses a boundary that was never defined.
6. JOJonny
  Mm-hmm.
7. CWChris Williamson
  Like, if you sleep with someone else, and you haven't identified that you're supposed to be exclusive with someone because seeing someone is in this beautiful-
8. JOJonny
  Yeah, then, then there's a slimy get out card for the other person, being like, "Oh, well, we never said that we were exclusives, so-"
9. CWChris Williamson
  Yeah.
10. JOJonny
  "... actually, I might free range or do whatever." And it's like, mm-
11. CWChris Williamson
  You're not.
12. JOJonny
  ... there is a, there's kind of a code of honor-
13. CWChris Williamson
  Mm-hmm.
14. JOJonny
  ... where th- yes, there, it hasn't been discussed yet, there's an implication, it's, it's a gray area.
15. CWChris Williamson
  You don't cross it, but-
16. JOJonny
  So- ... shit'll get off the pot, really, is the advice for that, isn't it?
17. CWChris Williamson
  (laughs)
18. JOJonny
  I just think it's a, it's not being scared and just-
19. CWChris Williamson
  Yeah.
20. JOJonny
  But one of the problems is- No, you're thinking to sell them at seven quid an hour.
21. CWChris Williamson
  (laughs)
22. JOJonny
  (laughs)
23. CWChris Williamson
  So and so-
24. JOJonny
  76. Yeah.
25. CWChris Williamson
  I think we'll need the clip of that as well.
26. JOJonny
  Yeah.
27. CWChris Williamson
  Yeah. Dean will make sure that that goes in. So, I think that basically you need to, you need to make a commitment with regards to this sort of stuff, because you think you're getting the best of both worlds and you're actually not. You're not getting anything of either-
28. JOJonny
  Mm-hmm.
29. CWChris Williamson
  ... because, (coughs) uh, certainly for me, when I'm in situations like that, if I do start chatting to someone else or start spending time with another girl or s- whatever, I immediately get these horrible pangs of guilt about doing something, and then the thought loop of, "Well, I'm not doing anything wrong. Well, I should be allowed to do this. Well, actually no, because you..." And I know in my heart of hearts that my deepest virtue says no.
30. JOJonny
  The fact that that thought loop is going on-
11:10 – 13:06
Second Hand Car Market
1. JOJonny
  where a lot of people get trapped (laughs) , you look, you look immediately bored. (laughs) You just went-
2. CWChris Williamson
  That's just my face?
3. JOJonny
  You just went...
4. CWChris Williamson
  That's my r- that's my resting bitch face?
5. JOJonny
  Secondhand car market, that's what it's like.
6. CWChris Williamson
  You were talking about this the other day.
7. JOJonny
  Mm-hmm.
8. CWChris Williamson
  We discussed this in the big dicks group, didn't we?
9. JOJonny
  We did. So I think people ... So this is, this is under should I be in a relationship or not? So let's say you're 25, for example, and you're thinking, "I'm moving towards 30 quicker than I feel comfortable with. I'm not really happy with where my life is. I feel like maybe I should be getting in a relationship." Maybe a few of your friends are, one of them's engaged, couple of them are maybe having kids or something like that. Had to go to 15 weddings in the last month.
10. CWChris Williamson
  Yeah.
11. JOJonny
  I mean, me too. (laughs) Um, and so you, you, there's this decision of, like, "Should I be single or not?" And I think there's a point at which, if you're not careful, all of the people who are people that you would actually want to be in a relationship with are in relationships, and then what you're left with is- The dregs. Yeah. Sort of.
12. CWChris Williamson
  Scraping the bottom of the barrel. I mean-
13. JOJonny
  Which is like when you're buying a secondhand car, you don't know whether it's a great value...... steel, or whether it's two cars that have been welded together and they're giving you shit certificates and-
14. YUYusef
  So, well, well, 'cause what, what you've got there is there is a statistical distribution of ages that people typically pair off at.
15. JOJonny
  Mm-hmm.
16. NANarrator
  (clears throat)
17. YUYusef
  As you grow older, that total population diminishes, but also the average quality also drops.
18. JOJonny
  Yeah.
19. YUYusef
  And so-
20. CWChris Williamson
  You thought, you presumed that the cream gets taken off the top first.
21. JOJonny
  For both-
22. YUYusef
  Cream gets taken off the top-
23. JOJonny
  For bo- for both men and women.
24. YUYusef
  ... which brings the mean down.
25. CWChris Williamson
  Mm-hmm.
26. YUYusef
  And so, yes, there still are high-quality people on both ends of that, that now-skewed bell curve, but you-
27. CWChris Williamson
  Hard to find.
28. JOJonny
  So there's fewer, fewer per sample size, right?
29. CWChris Williamson
  Mm-hmm.
30. YUYusef
  Fewer per sample size and smaller sample size, so-
13:06 – 15:24
Age Difference
1. JOJonny
2. CWChris Williamson
  ... I should be, by all means, shitting myself that I don't have a girlfriend. But that's you presuming that I'm looking at girls that are my age.
3. JOJonny
  You ... So, so I agree, but it's like, it's like if I said to you, "There are, the, there is a range of cars that you can buy."
4. CWChris Williamson
  Mm-hmm.
5. JOJonny
  "So, let's say cars that were made in a 10-year period."
6. CWChris Williamson
  Mm-hmm.
7. JOJonny
  "And you can buy from them whenever you want, but everyone else is also trying to buy from that pool of cars. And some of them may come back on the market, some of them may be-"
8. CWChris Williamson
  Mm-hmm.
9. JOJonny
  "... kept in a garage. And yeah, you can wait until the ones that are 10 years younger are coming up to 30-"
10. CWChris Williamson
  Mm-hmm.
11. JOJonny
  "... if you want to, or you can secure a position. But you sit outside of this entire equation for a whole host of reasons that we're not gonna get into in the podcast."
12. CWChris Williamson
  (clears throat)
13. JOJonny
  "But for the average person who doesn't have an Instagram funnel."
14. NANarrator
  (laughs)
15. CWChris Williamson
  (laughs) An Instagram funnel.
16. JOJonny
  These things need ... And if you wanna know what the Instagram funnel is-
17. CWChris Williamson
  Bum-ba-da-bum-ba-dum. (laughs)
18. JOJonny
  (laughs)
19. NANarrator
  (popping noise)
20. JOJonny
  That. If you wanna know what that is, send us a message.
21. CWChris Williamson
  Um, so I think-
22. JOJonny
  Yeah.
23. CWChris Williamson
  I think another, I think another part to, before you move on from that.
24. JOJonny
  Okay. I thought, I thought, I thought we'd covered this.
25. NANarrator
  (laughs)
26. CWChris Williamson
  You, you've opened up a, a new, a, a new doorway. I enjoy it. So-
27. YUYusef
  The, the age difference.
28. CWChris Williamson
  So age differential's a big deal because-
29. YUYusef
  So we're gonna have to get that picture up. Um, I'm gonna send it to video-
30. JOJonny
  'Cause it's porn.
15:24 – 16:00
Emotionally Unstable
1. CWChris Williamson
  If I look at a 21-year-old girl now-
2. JOJonny
  Mm-hmm.
3. CWChris Williamson
  ... I think to myself, "Emotionally unstable."
4. YUYusef
  I, I think, "Oh, she'll be boring to hang around with," e- and, like, that's n- just because.
5. CWChris Williamson
  Sorry, all 21-year-old girls who are out there, you are lovely, but you're going to be more lovely in about three years time.
6. JOJonny
  Lovely but boring and emotionally unstable.
7. YUYusef
  Th- no. (laughs)
8. JOJonny
  (laughs)
9. CWChris Williamson
  You're just going to be less emotionally unstable and less boring in-
10. YUYusef
  I think when I was 21, I didn't find 21-year-old girls boring, but I think as you have less and less in common as you get older, then they do go up.
11. JOJonny
  Yeah, that's 'cause you were looking at 17-year-old girls.
12. NANarrator
  (laughs)
13. JOJonny
  J- j- joke's on you.
14. CWChris Williamson
  Careful. Don't wind it back too much.
15. JOJonny
  I said 17. I said 17.
16. YUYusef
  Half your age plus seven.
17. JOJonny
  That's the formula.
18. CWChris Williamson
  That's the rule, isn't it?
19. JOJonny
  SCOV formula.
20. CWChris Williamson
  Um, so
16:00 – 17:36
Biological Clocks
1. CWChris Williamson
  yeah, I think I, I, I totally do get that, and I think that ... (clicks tongue) The elephant in the room when you're talking about guys versus girls is that women's biological clocks tick-
2. JOJonny
  Yep.
3. CWChris Williamson
  ... a lot more harshly than men's do.
4. YUYusef
  So the men are seeking fertility, ultimately, whereas for women, they're seeking-
5. JOJonny
  Isn't it like 18 that a woman's-
6. YUYusef
  Roughly, yeah.
7. JOJonny
  ... like, the peak, theoretical peak of fertility in?
8. CWChris Williamson
  Is that correct?
9. JOJonny
  Yeah. You would just-
10. CWChris Williamson
  Which, you have your best chance of being pregnant at 18, and it gets more difficult thereafter?
11. YUYusef
  I think so, yeah.
12. JOJonny
  Wow.
13. YUYusef
  So-
14. JOJonny
  Which means that if, assuming that's true, men are just gonna find 18-year-olds, which is, I suppose 21's close enough, isn't it?
15. YUYusef
  18 looks too much like a, too much like a child for me.
16. JOJonny
  Well-
17. YUYusef
  I think, like-
18. JOJonny
  I'm, I'm not saying-
19. CWChris Williamson
  You're talking evolutionarily, right?
20. JOJonny
  I'm not saying like, "Eugh, I love 18-year-old girls."
21. NANarrator
  (laughs)
22. JOJonny
  I'm saying statistically speaking.
23. YUYusef
  Yeah.
24. JOJonny
  With that in mind.
25. YUYusef
  Women are most fertile.
26. JOJonny
  Yeah.
27. CWChris Williamson
  That's how you're programmed, right, to see-
28. JOJonny
  Which I think is, is insidious, to be honest, that that's, we're, we're programmed like that.
29. CWChris Williamson
  Why? Why is it insidious?
30. JOJonny
  Someone should undo it all.
17:36 – 18:53
Relationship Analogy
1. CWChris Williamson
  Um, we all watch far too much of the same stuff, don't we?
2. JOJonny
  Yeah. Too much Big Brother and Love Island, and p- we're a- always watching it. Um, so-
3. YUYusef
  All rounded up with a pink blanket and a pillow.
4. JOJonny
  (laughs)
5. NANarrator
  (laughs)
6. YUYusef
  We cuddle that together. Ice cream, just watching.
7. JOJonny
  That's what we've just been doing before this went awkward.
8. CWChris Williamson
  Face mask.
9. YUYusef
  Oh, yeah.
10. JOJonny
  Yeah.
11. YUYusef
  Cucumber.
12. JOJonny
  Cucumber. Um-
13. YUYusef
  (laughs)
14. CWChris Williamson
  How do you watch it through the cucumber?
15. JOJonny
  (laughs) People at home ... (laughs) People think that a, that a relationship is a, a liability. Shall I wait?
16. YUYusef
  No, no.
17. CWChris Williamson
  We're getting serious.
18. JOJonny
  We're getting-
19. YUYusef
  Th- that's, that's like when a teacher in a class said, "All right. Well, I'm guessing by your chattering that you finished the test paper now."
20. CWChris Williamson
  That you don't want it.
21. JOJonny
  That you don't want a break.
22. YUYusef
  No. (laughs)
23. JOJonny
  The bell is for me, not for you.
24. CWChris Williamson
  Come on.
25. JOJonny
  Um, so-... job, you get a salary and a pension, but at the end of a week or a month, like, you have no residual value in that. Which is the same as ser- serially dating people, so you build up a little bit of equity in something and then it disappears, build up a little bit of equity and it disappears. With a business or an asset, there's a relationship analogy, everything you do, like every good experience you have, every memory you create is- is accumulating-
26. CWChris Williamson
  Mm-hmm.
27. JOJonny
  ... that you are generating equity. Is that your analogy?
28. YUYusef
  I- I think so. I wrote this note in August, so.
29. JOJonny
  (laughs)
30. YUYusef
  So I can't even remember my analogy now.
18:53 – 20:54
Serial Experiences
1. YUYusef
2. CWChris Williamson
  I totally- I totally get- I totally get what you mean, but it- well, it's- it's- is it a single use?
3. YUYusef
  You explained it much better. You are the accountant, so.
4. JOJonny
  (laughs)
5. CWChris Williamson
  Is it a single use transactional kind of thing-
6. JOJonny
  Exactly.
7. CWChris Williamson
  ... that's purely for the fleeting sense of enjoyment you get while you're there-
8. JOJonny
  Exactly.
9. CWChris Williamson
  ... versus-
10. YUYusef
  So that's interesting because we- we talked about this in a- in a private WhatsApp inner circle thread-
11. CWChris Williamson
  Mm-hmm.
12. YUYusef
  ... the other day, which was (clears throat) that these- these serial experiences may have value of their own, they may not-
13. CWChris Williamson
  Mm-hmm.
14. YUYusef
  ... but the overarching value could be that they are to give you enough experience to prepare you for being able to discriminate and pick a better mate long term.
15. CWChris Williamson
  Mm-hmm.
16. YUYusef
  Or to give you enough experience, enough width of experience to know if you're in a good or a bad position later on.
17. CWChris Williamson
  I- I think what's- what's interesting about what you were talking about, we'll come back to the point about this game of chicken of trying to find someone before they get taken, so to speak.
18. JOJonny
  Mm-hmm.
19. CWChris Williamson
  Um, what's interesting there is the point that I made again in- in the chat that we were on about where I said I don't know if I want to be the first round for a 22-year-old, 23-year-old rocket who is going to be a fantastic wife later in life.
20. YUYusef
  As in you-
21. CWChris Williamson
  But needs to go through a divorce.
22. JOJonny
  So, I ... (laughs)
23. YUYusef
  You- you don't want to be a learning experience for someone. Yeah.
24. JOJonny
  Yeah. Maybe, I think maybe not a divorce.
25. CWChris Williamson
  You understand what I mean though?
26. JOJonny
  I- I... Completely. I think people who end up marrying the person they- the first person they slept with, for example-
27. CWChris Williamson
  Mm-hmm.
28. JOJonny
  ... I think that's a- a recipe for disaster, just personally.
29. YUYusef
  That's like- that's like putting all your money into a single stock and just ...
30. CWChris Williamson
  But if- the other thing as well is, if you don't know what you're missing, ignorance but- ignorance can be bliss.
20:54 – 21:23
Experiment
1. CWChris Williamson
  For the listeners at home, I'm going to do a little experiment. So ...
2. JOJonny
  Oh, God.
3. CWChris Williamson
  Can you both imagine for me please, a woman who is beautiful ...
4. JOJonny
  Yeah.
5. CWChris Williamson
  ... but not hot.
6. JOJonny
  Mm-hmm.
7. YUYusef
  (groans) It's like a 19th century with a little-
8. CWChris Williamson
  No, currently.
9. YUYusef
  ... bow and... Okay.
10. CWChris Williamson
  Woman who's beautiful, but not hot.
11. YUYusef
  Okay.
12. JOJonny
  Just by our understandings of those-
13. CWChris Williamson
  However you want to interpret it. Beautiful, but not hot. Okay? So you got that in your mind?
14. JOJonny
  (sighs)
15. YUYusef
  Yeah.
16. JOJonny
  No. I'm just- I'm honestly struggling.
17. CWChris Williamson
  It's the kind of-
18. JOJonny
  I'll- I'll persist.
21:23 – 23:00
Hot but not beautiful
1. JOJonny
2. YUYusef
  Okay.
3. CWChris Williamson
  Okay?
4. JOJonny
  Continue.
5. CWChris Williamson
  So, can you now imagine someone who's hot, but not beautiful?
6. YUYusef
  Mm-hmm.
7. JOJonny
  Yeah.
8. CWChris Williamson
  Okay. So, the argument that Heather Haying and Bret Weinstein make on Joe Rogan's podcast is that men's- men's, uh, values that they're looking for in women have become skewed-
9. JOJonny
  Mm-hmm.
10. CWChris Williamson
  ... to work on hotness and not beauty.
11. JOJonny
  Mm-hmm.
12. CWChris Williamson
  And beauty is timeless, and it's the sort of thing that continues throughout life. So, a good example would be someone like Dame Judi Dench or something like that. You know, someone who's got some beauty, some grace about her-
13. JOJonny
  Mm-hmm.
14. CWChris Williamson
  ... but you don't think is hot.
15. JOJonny
  Mm-hmm.
16. CWChris Williamson
  Hot but not beautiful would be tarty girl-
17. JOJonny
  Yeah.
18. CWChris Williamson
  ... who you want to have sex with, but you wouldn't take home to the parents. I think that downhill from that, or downstream from that, should I say, there's other implications about the way that they hold themselves, the values that they hold, et cetera, et cetera.
19. JOJonny
  Mm-hmm.
20. CWChris Williamson
  But even if you just take it on a surface level about the way that they look, there is definitely a distinction to be made between beauty and hotness.
21. JOJonny
  Mm-hmm. Yeah.
22. CWChris Williamson
  And what's happening with a lot of beauty products now, Oil of Olay and whatever else it is-
23. JOJonny
  (laughs)
24. CWChris Williamson
  ... I don't know, I'm just thinking about what's in my mom's drawer.
25. YUYusef
  (laughs)
26. CWChris Williamson
  Um ...
27. YUYusef
  That's a very mum product if you're being honest with me.
28. CWChris Williamson
  Yeah, no, yeah. What- what do girls use? Clarins. No, I use.
29. YUYusef
  You know what? That- that also betrays your age because it used to be called Oil of Ulay, and then they changed it to Olay, just like they changed Jif to Cif.
30. JOJonny
  Oh, 'cause loads of like Spanish people couldn't pronounce it, wasn't it?
23:00 – 24:29
Beauty and hotness
1. JOJonny
  um, signaling for hotness and not beauty.
2. CWChris Williamson
  Mm-hmm.
3. JOJonny
  And this is confusing men's sort of radar and compass in terms of what they're looking for as well, because you really want to be looking for beauty, not hotness. If hotness is going to wane within the next five to ten years, and this is the same for-
4. YUYusef
  Is that because it's easier to emulate hotness than it is to emulate beauty?
5. CWChris Williamson
  I think there's more depth to beauty for sure. And also-
6. JOJonny
  Hotness feels like painted on, you know?
7. YUYusef
  Well your surface is because you've painted it on yourself, that's why.
8. JOJonny
  Feels created.
9. CWChris Williamson
  Yeah, it's a lot more flashy lights, neon sort of stuff.
10. JOJonny
  Mm-hmm.
11. CWChris Williamson
  And less subtle. And the other thing as well that's kind of savage-
12. YUYusef
  Because it's easy enough to get a tan and Botox and like just all the like, um, stuff that if you looked at someone from a distance-
13. CWChris Williamson
  Mm-hmm.
14. YUYusef
  ... just for a flash, you'd be like "Oh yeah."
15. JOJonny
  But what- what's so inter- if you think of like FHM cover model, for example.
16. CWChris Williamson
  Mm-hmm.
17. JOJonny
  Or like, you know what I mean, Nuts and Zoo and all that. I- I realize-
18. CWChris Williamson
  Fast Car Magazine.
19. JOJonny
  ... that doesn't exist anymore. But yeah, so like the- the women portrayed on that-
20. YUYusef
  I sound like such a granddad when we're talking about this stuff.
21. JOJonny
  I know. (laughs) That's the most recent example.
22. YUYusef
  Like, "Oh, I'm in Vueling and Nuts Magazine."
23. JOJonny
  But they... What I- what I always used to find so interesting is like someone has arranged that image in a way that they know guys look at that and find whatever that arrangement, like whatever they're wearing in that way attractive.
24. CWChris Williamson
  Mm-hmm.
25. JOJonny
  But like a lot of it, like if you saw someone walking down the street like that, you'd be like, "That's ridiculous."
26. CWChris Williamson
  Mm-hmm.
27. JOJonny
  But it's like the combination of certain colors and items of clothing-
28. CWChris Williamson
  Mm-hmm.
29. JOJonny
  ... that they know just hit.
30. CWChris Williamson
  So hotness triggering, right?
24:29 – 25:41
Snapchat filters
1. CWChris Williamson
  read the post that I put in the inner circle yesterday about the Snapchat filters and how they affected -
2. JOJonny
  Yeah.
3. YUYusef
  Mm-hmm.
4. CWChris Williamson
  Did you read it?
5. JOJonny
  No.
6. CWChris Williamson
  (laughs)
7. YUYusef
  I did.
8. CWChris Williamson
  Did you, man? Did you enjoy it?
9. YUYusef
  Yeah. Yeah.
10. CWChris Williamson
  Did you?
11. YUYusef
  Yeah. So, that's, I suppose that's as close to machine learning algorithm as we're gonna get-
12. CWChris Williamson
  Yeah.
13. YUYusef
  ... which is the-
14. CWChris Williamson
  Can you explain it to me because I haven't read it?
15. YUYusef
  Snapchat adjusts your facial features based on, um, these archetypes of attractiveness, to like smoothen out the face, make the cheeks slightly redder, make the eyes slightly larger. Um, does it make this forehead a bit larger as well?
16. CWChris Williamson
  Mm-hmm. Right.
17. YUYusef
  Um, basically make you have more of a neotenous lea- which means like baby-like face.
18. CWChris Williamson
  Right. Okay.
19. YUYusef
  Um, so like, you know the- the filter that has like the floating hair?
20. CWChris Williamson
  Yeah, I know the one. I see. So that's- that's doing certain things that are-
21. YUYusef
  Makes the lips a bit bigger, a bit pinker.
22. CWChris Williamson
  Right. There's this Fisherian runaway selection, which is, uh, sexually attractive characteristics will become more exaggerated over time. So if-
23. YUYusef
  Oh, yeah. And it gets ridiculous over- (laughs)
24. CWChris Williamson
  It gets absolutely ... it becomes caricatured. So you go, okay, men like women with big boobs, or, uh, women like men with broad shoulders. Run that for a million years and you've got these triangular men-
25. YUYusef
  I see.
26. CWChris Williamson
  ... and these women with like scoliosis, hump backs.
27. YUYusef
  Back problems. That's it. Yeah,
25:41 – 27:10
How to form a good relationship
1. YUYusef
  yeah, yeah.
2. CWChris Williamson
  So, um, yeah. So moving on, what's next in your framework?
3. YUYusef
  Christ.
4. CWChris Williamson
  Should we go ... I want to do, um, how do you form a good relationship? So we've hopefully managed to get people out of the mire that is seeing someone.
5. YUYusef
  Mm-hmm.
6. CWChris Williamson
  They found someone that they think, "I could, I could see myself in a relationship with this person."
7. YUYusef
  Well, so- so I suppose picking that person and knowing whether they are a good choice. And I- I owe, um, Johnny a huge amount for ... there was a time a few years ago, a g- good few years ago.
8. CWChris Williamson
  I optimized your Tinder.
9. JOJonny
  (laughs)
10. YUYusef
  You, yeah, you did. (laughs)
11. CWChris Williamson
  Funnel.
12. YUYusef
  Time a good few years ago-
13. JOJonny
  Well, if anyone wants a funnel.
14. YUYusef
  ... when, um, I was, I was quite torn and Johnny just advised me to make a balanced scorecard, um, of a couple of people that I was considering pursuing for a relationship. And he was like, "Look, like rank them out of ... rank them across five attributes, mark it out of 10, and pick, uh, and, uh, give them each a rating on each of those attributes. Take the total and see which one has more points." And then that was it.
15. CWChris Williamson
  How do you feel, how do you feel that a lot of people who would think you just know, the you just know can't put, man, you feel it when it's right?
16. YUYusef
  So, well the-
17. CWChris Williamson
  How do you think they would react to your-
18. YUYusef
  There's, I think there's probably some overlap between that.
19. CWChris Williamson
  ... quantifiable metrics of-
20. YUYusef
  I- I think back then I'd overridden my, my f- my heart center, my feeling center so much-
21. CWChris Williamson
  I think that's a good point.
22. YUYusef
  ... that I was out of tune with that intuitive sense.
27:10 – 28:01
How do you feel
1. YUYusef
2. CWChris Williamson
  How do you feel, how do you feel now with regards to stuff like that?
3. YUYusef
  Much better. Much better. But that, that's from a lot of spiritual practice that I've done, I think, that's connected me now-
4. CWChris Williamson
  Mm-hmm. That's cool.
5. YUYusef
  ... inside. But that's for another, yeah.
6. CWChris Williamson
  Another time. Johnny, how about you?
7. YUYusef
  I think-
8. CWChris Williamson
  How do you find or choose a person that's right for you in a relationship?
9. JOJonny
  Um, so I didn't, I didn't plot it out like that.
10. CWChris Williamson
  Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
11. JOJonny
  But that approach.
12. YUYusef
  Excel.
13. CWChris Williamson
  Really?
14. JOJonny
  No, Excel.
15. CWChris Williamson
  (laughs) Excel.
16. JOJonny
  Yeah. So, but, but with that, like in response to that thing, that- that point of like, oh, you shouldn't approach it like that. Like that's like saying, like, you know, someone's saying, "Oh, I'm just ... I know I'm saving money." Or, "I know I'm losing weight."
17. YUYusef
  Mm-hmm.
18. JOJonny
  Or, you know, "I know I'm not breaking the speed limit."
19. CWChris Williamson
  Mm-hmm.
20. JOJonny
  Like-
21. YUYusef
  You might be.
22. JOJonny
  You might be, but you might also not be. And also like if you know, if you know that you feel more strongly about that person, but you're struggling to make a decision between one of three relationships or whatever that you want to get into-
23. CWChris Williamson
  Mm-hmm.
24. JOJonny
  ... like sometimes sitting and actually thinking about it
28:01 – 32:19
The intangibles
1. JOJonny
  can-
2. CWChris Williamson
  Do you not think a lot of, a lot of relationships or a lot of what makes relationships special and attractive are due to the intangibles?
3. JOJonny
  So these are intangibles.
4. CWChris Williamson
  How do you tangibize them?
5. JOJonny
  So like-
6. YUYusef
  (laughs)
7. JOJonny
  Well, by using the framework. (laughs) Like-
8. YUYusef
  We all so-
9. JOJonny
  (laughs)
10. CWChris Williamson
  The fact that any of us have had sex is-
11. JOJonny
  Is impressive.
12. CWChris Williamson
  ... a fucking miracle.
13. JOJonny
  We're doing well.
14. CWChris Williamson
  Yeah.
15. JOJonny
  Yeah, we're doing well. So I ... the stuff that I think is more important, so stuff I've written down here.
16. YUYusef
  I- I haven't yet.
17. JOJonny
  (laughs)
18. YUYusef
  When, when will it be my turn?
19. JOJonny
  Video can ... Dean can cut that out.
20. CWChris Williamson
  (laughs)
21. JOJonny
  Video can cut that ... I know you call your video.
22. CWChris Williamson
  Video Dean.
23. JOJonny
  Um, so ... (laughs)
24. CWChris Williamson
  It'd be good if Dean didn't exist and it was just a- a two dimensional image of him, like a GIF.
25. JOJonny
  (laughs)
26. CWChris Williamson
  (laughs)
27. YUYusef
  (laughs)
28. JOJonny
  I think we should make a, like a- a video man Dean represent like a little character.
29. CWChris Williamson
  Once we hit $50 of ad revenue on YouTube.
30. YUYusef
  $50?
32:19 – 34:03
What do you look for
1. CWChris Williamson
  of-
2. JOJonny
  Yeah, yeah.
3. CWChris Williamson
  ... l- what do you look for on, like, so I got asked this question loads on Love Island, right?
4. JOJonny
  Mm-hmm.
5. CWChris Williamson
  And they said, "What do you look for?" And what they want is s- like, blond hair, blue eyes, or brunette, petite, sporty, goes to the gym.
6. JOJonny
  Mm-hmm.
7. CWChris Williamson
  Um, loyal.
8. JOJonny
  But actually-
9. YUYusef
  Was your answer a bunch of quite existential stuff (laughs) that they want?
10. CWChris Williamson
  No, no, no. No, just start again.
11. JOJonny
  And do you know, I found it really, I found it really difficult.
12. CWChris Williamson
  Mm-hmm.
13. JOJonny
  Because if you don't have, when someone asks you that question, "What's your type?"
14. YUYusef
  Mm-hmm.
15. JOJonny
  And-
16. CWChris Williamson
  How do you, how do you answer that question?
17. JOJonny
  If you don't have a single, and like, who says-
18. CWChris Williamson
  It's a mistake.
19. JOJonny
  ... I go for, I, I go for only blondes. Mm-hmm. Like who is enough of a retard-
20. CWChris Williamson
  (laughs)
21. JOJonny
  ... to think that that's an appropriate answer?
22. YUYusef
  Well, one, it's inap- it's a very inappropriate answer. Two, it's stupid on, on that account, but also, like, it's just you've suddenly restricted arbitrarily the pool of people that you could potentially-
23. JOJonny
  Mm-hmm.
24. YUYusef
  ... have met. And then you might meet someone who doesn't fit into your completely arbitrary defined type in your head that would've actually been a really good match for you.
25. JOJonny
  Mm-hmm.
26. YUYusef
  And as a result you've-
27. CWChris Williamson
  You've written them off for ...
28. YUYusef
  Yeah.
29. CWChris Williamson
  Mm, yeah. Going for values is much better. So anyway, moving forward, in a relationship, um, how do you decide when you need, when it's, when it's time, and how do you ask someone?
30. YUYusef
  To go from seeing to ...
34:03 – 41:15
How long have you been together
1. CWChris Williamson
  and he's adamant, I think they've been together maybe 35 years. He's known her since she was eight.
2. YUYusef
  (laughs)
3. JOJonny
  Like, he's literally lived-
4. CWChris Williamson
  Stop it.
5. JOJonny
  ... on the same street as each other in, uh, I think it's Alberta where he's from. And he said that she's never lied to him, ever. She, he believes that Tammy, his wife, has never ever once lied to him. You've got to say, as far as he knows they don't know.
6. YUYusef
  (laughs)
7. CWChris Williamson
  Well, I gotta say that.
8. JOJonny
  But yeah. (laughs)
9. CWChris Williamson
  Jordan, there's gonna be a caveat in here mate.
10. JOJonny
  Come on mate, Jordan's like-
11. CWChris Williamson
  It's only, it's only what you know.
12. JOJonny
  (laughs)
13. CWChris Williamson
  Um, but yeah, and he believes that she's never ever lied to him. And you're like, "Fuck."
14. JOJonny
  Mm-hmm.
15. CWChris Williamson
  That is the basis of a fucking good relationship right there.
16. JOJonny
  Mm-hmm. Um-
17. YUYusef
  Depends how much of a pessimist you are. He could be like, "My wife is such a good liar that I've never caught her lying once."
18. JOJonny
  (laughs)
19. CWChris Williamson
  (laughs)
20. JOJonny
  But I mean if, if that is true, and he chooses to believe in an alternate reality and he's happy, then-
21. YUYusef
  True, true.
22. CWChris Williamson
  Okay, so-
23. JOJonny
  Yeah.
24. CWChris Williamson
  ... to a- to ask someone, do you just, why don't you just request it on Facebook, not speak to them?
25. JOJonny
  Yeah. Just write on their wall, girlfriend question mark.
26. YUYusef
  (laughs)
27. JOJonny
  You're either gonna get a yes or a no, aren't you? That might be the reason for the no though, that's the trouble.
28. YUYusef
  (laughs)
29. CWChris Williamson
  (laughs)
30. JOJonny
  I think this is something that, we went to see Eric Helms in a fitness seminar, and he in, in passing in the fitness seminar gave you the best relationship advice I've ever had.
41:15 – 44:35
How to find the right person
1. YUYusef
  seem to match with p- and, and they tend to go with that.
2. CWChris Williamson
  Is that because your values are derived from those and it means-
3. YUYusef
  Probably, yeah, exactly.
4. CWChris Williamson
  ... that you're more likely to have more in common in terms of the way that you view the world?
5. YUYusef
  I, I think that's very likely, isn't it? But also that they are probably the social circles that you are more likely to meet someone
6. JOJonny
  So there's an availability bias here as well.
7. YUYusef
  Yeah, 'cause you're not going to go and find someone in Bangladesh and marry them unless you happen to be there anyway. In which case, like-
8. CWChris Williamson
  Yeah.
9. JOJonny
  So-
10. CWChris Williamson
  Is there a case for you if you get to 30 years old, like me, just spending two years traveling the globe sampling?
11. YUYusef
  I think a lot of people... yeah, I think that's probably a really good idea.
12. CWChris Williamson
  Right, mind them up.
13. YUYusef
  (laughs)
14. JOJonny
  (laughs)
15. YUYusef
  Um, would you be annoyed-
16. JOJonny
  (laughs)
17. YUYusef
  You, so you, you know, you were, you were saying like if someone is a very desirable person and you're-
18. JOJonny
  Mm-hmm.
19. YUYusef
  ... with them, that immediately brings down, or that immediately throws a spanner in because other people are fawning over them. Would that annoy you if you were with someone who men were constantly trying to pick them up?
20. JOJonny
  So I think it depends on your level of self-confidence, but als- 'cause at that c- it can be a point of real issue. So I've, I've seen some relationships fall apart because a girl was in a photo with a guy on a night out, the guy's very insecure-
21. CWChris Williamson
  (sighs)
22. JOJonny
  ... and it, it just becomes-
23. CWChris Williamson
  That's the guy's problem, not someone else.
24. JOJonny
  It, it, completely the guy's problem, but, but the guy would, as a result, probably be happier with someone who got less attention.
25. CWChris Williamson
  Mm-hmm.
26. JOJonny
  Which is ridiculous.
27. CWChris Williamson
  But that's you talking about, again, that's compatibility, right?
28. JOJonny
  If someone who's... it is, and it's someone who should be working on themselves before getting into a relationship.
29. CWChris Williamson
  So you need to know, you need to know yourself and you need to know what level of, um, notoriety you're prepared to have your-
30. JOJonny
  Of course, yeah.
44:35 – 45:35
The most important period in a relationship
1. CWChris Williamson
  um, I think one of the most important periods in a relationship is, like, the first four to six weeks, and I'm aware that the precursor to this has already been set up by the time that you've spent before, like the seeing them.
2. JOJonny
  Yeah.
3. CWChris Williamson
  So this needs to really be from as soon as you start to spend time with someone, and the framework to apply to this is kind of the same as when you're in court and there's already been a case which has laid out how this should go forward.
4. JOJonny
  Okay.
5. CWChris Williamson
  If you set a precedent for X situation to occur, that is what this other person will expect as you move forward.
6. JOJonny
  Yeah.
7. CWChris Williamson
  And then changing it is going to result in some sort of turmoil.
8. YUYusef
  Mm-hmm.
9. CWChris Williamson
  So the way that you should ... Uh, I think a good way to approach the beginning of a relationship is to set up the first few weeks as perfectly as possible, to have everything exactly
45:35 – 46:35
How to approach a relationship
1. CWChris Williamson
  as you would like, and to set the bar incredibly high. So everything's clean, date night's done on time, you greet them as they come in the door, you don't miss out on X, Y, and Z, you treat them i- hold them to as high standards as you want them to be held to, you set hard lines in the sand, going back to relationships 101, very, very hard lines in the sand, this is acceptable behavior, this is unacceptable behavior. Because as soon as you concede behavior which you deem to be unacceptable, you can no longer say it's unacceptable in the future.
2. YUYusef
  Mm-hmm.
3. CWChris Williamson
  "Oh, well, you, you already said it was fine. What do you mean?"
4. JOJonny
  Yeah.
5. CWChris Williamson
  "I've been going out with John, I've been going for coffee with John for ages. You never had a problem with it before."
6. JOJonny
  Mm-hmm.
7. CWChris Williamson
  It's like the first time that something happens which makes you feel upset, tell them, and conversely, the first time that something happens that makes you feel nice, makes you feel good, tell them as well. So another Jordan Peterson one here, the same way as training a dog. Like, it's exactly-
8. JOJonny
  Mm-hmm.
9. CWChris Williamson
  ... what you're doing here. You need to not only punish-
10. YUYusef
  We're not that much more advanced than dogs really, so we need to-
11. JOJonny
  Not dogs. You need to, you need to punish stuff that you deem to be
46:35 – 47:35
Finding the right person for you
1. JOJonny
  wrong, and you need to reward stuff that you deem to be good.
2. YUYusef
  Mm-hmm.
3. CWChris Williamson
  And that will guide your partner towards being the right person for you, and I think this is where it, the whole conversation about, um, being with someone, uh, finding the right person for you becomes even more twisted-
4. JOJonny
  Mm-hmm.
5. CWChris Williamson
  ... because you can create the person that's perfect for you.
6. YUYusef
  I've seen that so much where someone is in a relationship with someone and you can clearly see that they're only seeing the, a projection of what they want that person to be-
7. JOJonny
  Mm-hmm.
8. YUYusef
  ... and they're not really seeing that person.
9. JOJonny
  Do you not think-
10. CWChris Williamson
  And fighting when someone doesn't meet the criteria-
11. JOJonny
  Let's say-
12. YUYusef
  Doesn't fit into the, the idea of them they have in their head.
13. JOJonny
  Mm-hmm.
14. CWChris Williamson
  I think a, a good, um, characteristic to look for in any potential future partner is someone who's open to change and also keen on personal development. If you get those two things, y- it's likely that you're going to be able to grow with that person, that-
15. JOJonny
  Mm-hmm.
16. CWChris Williamson
  ... like as you want them to improve, they want you to
47:35 – 48:35
Setting the tone
1. CWChris Williamson
  improve. You can hold them to a higher standard but they don't take it as a, a, an insult or a slight against them or some kind of worrisome reason that you're not going to care anymore. And I think setting the tone, setting the tone in that kind of a manner make, forms a really, really good foundation. It's like if you start off a marathon, uh, running at six-minute-mile pace or whatever it is and you continue it, then you're like, "Okay, well, that's my split. I'm going to stay at six minute." If you started at 10 minutes, like, what's the incentive to speed up or how-
2. YUYusef
  Mm-hmm.
3. CWChris Williamson
  ... do you speed up? So-
4. YUYusef
  Very important about the desire for growth as well because then if you are with someone who is a waste man or waste woman and you're growing at this pace and they're staying the same, there's going to be resentment. You might even start to resent that person, but they, they'll-
5. CWChris Williamson
  Both ways as well. They'll probably resent you-
6. YUYusef
  Yeah, they'll, they'll resent you-
7. CWChris Williamson
  ... for making progress.
8. YUYusef
  And they're just being them, so it's not like you can blame them for not wanting to grow because they weren't-
9. CWChris Williamson
  Do you think that there's,
48:35 – 49:35
Differences between men and women
1. CWChris Williamson
  do you think that there's a, a typical difference between men and women with regards to how much they're prepared to grow in your experience in relationships? Like, you are obviously-
2. YUYusef
  I've, I've, I've seen it both ways. I've s- I've seen where, where the woman is, like, really getting her s- get- getting her stuff together and, like, really moving forward with her life. But the guy is, like, a sort of m- layabout, occasionally violent and so on, but because of that, because she still loves him, she puts up with it.
3. CWChris Williamson
  Mm-hmm.
4. YUYusef
  But then you can see them growing further apart, but ... And then the other ... Obviously, things like kids or whatever holds them together, or even the threat that, "If you leave then I'm going to do..."
5. CWChris Williamson
  Well, the f- the fact that-... as a society, we are even to have people fucking cohabit and not tear each other's eyes out on a daily basis is amazing, isn't it?
6. JOJonny
  Mm-hmm.
7. YUYusef
  Mm-hmm.
8. CWChris Williamson
  Like, it's such a minefield. And the fact that we're held in place by social, uh, stigma and, uh, uh, a little bit of virtue.
9. JOJonny
  (laughs)
10. CWChris Williamson
  Like,
49:35 – 50:35
Career vs marriage
1. CWChris Williamson
  it's, it is really, really impressive.
2. JOJonny
  The, the thing that I find amazing is that people see their career as, like, something that requires a lot of work and a lot of time, but a marriage just happens. You know, like, "Oh, well, I signed that thing and I live with this person now."
3. YUYusef
  So, I think, I'm looking back at these notes and I think you took my phone one day during Relations 101-
4. JOJonny
  (laughs)
5. YUYusef
  ... and were like, "Right, you what? I need to write some notes here 'cause I've got so many thoughts."
6. JOJonny
  (laughs) .
7. YUYusef
  'Cause also you wrote, you put, y-
8. JOJonny
  Can I see them?
9. YUYusef
  Yeah, 'cause it-
10. JOJonny
  'Cause annoyingly I was looking for them this morning, I was like, "Where are they?"
11. YUYusef
  So you wrote, "If you bought one pair of shoes, you would pick carefully."
12. JOJonny
  (laughs)
13. YUYusef
  And that's, I think that's the part that you-
14. JOJonny
  Right. So, I, I remember what that means now.
15. YUYusef
  While you're looking through that, I've got an idea to-
16. JOJonny
  Burdens were a benefit.
17. YUYusef
  ... to float with you. Um-
18. JOJonny
  So they cancel ............................ (laughs)
19. YUYusef
  Oh, yeah, I'll have to mention them in a sec.
20. JOJonny
  (laughs)
21. YUYusef
  Um, so there's a, there's an idea that I, I heard from this guy. I think it's very reductive, I think it's very simplistic, but he claims, and I'm sure there is an equivalent for men, but he claimed that women,
50:35 – 51:35
Spectrums
1. YUYusef
  um, can be, fall, fall along three different continuums, continua.
2. JOJonny
  Someone's gonna get offended here, aren't they?
3. YUYusef
  Yeah, they, they will, but, like-
4. JOJonny
  It's fine.
5. YUYusef
  This, this, I'm, I'm relaying this guy's idea, like, base ..........................
6. JOJonny
  If we had something that would insult men just as much, I'd use it. We'd say ..........................
7. YUYusef
  I'm sure there, there probably is a, an equivalent model, 'cause-
8. JOJonny
  Go on.
9. YUYusef
  ... he'll have made it as an upsell. So-
10. JOJonny
  (laughs)
11. YUYusef
  ... three different, um, spectrum, spectra ...
12. JOJonny
  Spectri?
13. YUYusef
  S- s- it's a-
14. JOJonny
  Spectra.
15. YUYusef
  It's a neuter.
16. JOJonny
  Go on, go on.
17. YUYusef
  Neuter pl- there's a single, singular. So (laughs) , um, so you have their views towards men, relationships, and their life. So, for men they're either tester or investor. So, if they're a tester, then they have lots of men orbiting them at one time, that they're constantly keeping just kind of at arm's reach and just always testing them. Whereas an investor is a woman that decides on one man and, and puts all her eggs into that basket
51:35 – 52:35
Attitude towards sex
1. YUYusef
  and dives in. And so they're usually on one side of that spectrum or another.
2. JOJonny
  Mm-hmm.
3. YUYusef
  The next one is attitude towards sex, which is either denier or justifier. And this is the same way that they would react to, "Hey, did you eat that chocolate in the fridge?" "No. No, I didn't." W- that's a denier. That's like sex is a naughty subject, and if I'm questioned about it, I'll just deny that it exists and that I have any urges or anything like that. And if they ... And they're less likely to cheat on you, but if they do, you are not gonna know about it. A justifier is, "Did you eat that bit of chocolate?" "Well, yeah, but it's just a bit of chocolate, like, what's the problem?" Someone who doesn't see sex as very important is more likely to have sex with you earlier in a relationship, but doesn't consider it to be anything significant or any kind of marker of how much they like you, um, and they are more likely to cheat on you and you're more likely to know about it. Then you have ... So you have justifier and denier.
52:35 – 53:35
Attitude towards life
1. YUYusef
  Then you have attitude towards life, realist and idealist. So, realist is, um, career focused, realizes that they're gonna, um, be juggling a lot of stuff and, um, doesn't have a kind of very romanticized view of, of their life and their career. Idealist is, "I want to be the princess of my house and I want to have a three bedroom house with a little car and a dog and a driveway and that..." And that's, uh, that's the, the idealist, kind of more traditionalistic view of their life. So you have tester/investor towards men, realist, uh, uh, justifier/denier towards sex, and then realist/idealist towards life and career.
2. CWChris Williamson
  I've heard you use that before. It's a really cool thing.
3. JOJonny
  Is that, is that Mark Manson?
4. YUYusef
  No. Similar guy.
5. JOJonny
  I remember you, I remember you talking about ............................
6. YUYusef
  I think there's a few of us ..........................
7. JOJonny
  Yeah.
8. YUYusef
  ... try to see where they're ... And the, I think the, the tendency is everyone's like, "Oh, well, I'm a denier, justifier, whatever." But, uh-
9. JOJonny
  Mm-hmm. It's what you do with that information.
10. YUYusef
  And-
11. JOJonny
  That's the challenge.
12. YUYusef
  ... is it accurate, or is it just-
53:35 – 54:35
What do you want someone compromising
1. YUYusef
2. JOJonny
  Mm-hmm.
3. YUYusef
  ... random dichotomies that someone's created-
4. JOJonny
  Mm-hmm.
5. YUYusef
  ... to sell stuff?
6. CWChris Williamson
  If it's not pertinent to how someone's gonna behave in a relationship, like, it could just be where their principles lie, but if they love you that much that they can compromise-
7. JOJonny
  Mm-hmm.
8. CWChris Williamson
  ... all of those things to be whatever it is that you want ...
9. YUYusef
  Mm. But would, do you want someone compromising who they are?
10. CWChris Williamson
  Well, that's a good question.
11. JOJonny
  I think-
12. YUYusef
  Mm-hmm.
13. JOJonny
  ... that there are, there has to be compromise.
14. YUYusef
  It does.
15. JOJonny
  Even, even if it's just to the extent of, like ... 'Cause I, this is, again, a lot of arguments that I've observed happen in, in relationships, especially like at uni when everyone's a very sort of close environment, is just ego overriding. And, like, someone won't j- It's so easy to just go, "You know what? I'm sorry. My bad." And, like, let's just let go-
16. CWChris Williamson
  Well, it's not. It's not. It's not that easy at all.
17. JOJonny
  Well, easy relative to having a three-day argument.
18. CWChris Williamson
  But you think that. Why are so many people in three-day arguments clinging onto the ego?
19. JOJonny
  Was it ... Yeah. Okay. So, take, take this as a lesson. (laughs) Just let go of it.
20. CWChris Williamson
  Just say
54:35 – 55:35
Most painful breakup
1. CWChris Williamson
  sorry.
2. JOJonny
  Mm-hmm.
3. CWChris Williamson
  I think that's a good ............................
4. YUYusef
  Or you're, or you're often .......................... like, a really silly, small thing.
5. JOJonny
  Yeah. And it, it-
6. CWChris Williamson
  I mean, moving on, moving on to that, like, I think breakups are the most painful because of pride.
7. JOJonny
  Mm-hmm.
8. CWChris Williamson
  I would honestly go as far as to say that more than half of the pain in most relationships, but most breakups from relationships, are due to the pride-
9. JOJonny
  Yeah.
10. CWChris Williamson
  ... being hurt. Because pe- it just triggers so many feelings of worthlessness and self-loathing and, "It's what I knew, I knew I wasn't good for this person all along." Or all of that sort of stuff. I think that's the reason that it hurts. And that can be shown. There's been a couple of times where I've been sort of with a girl or whatever and then we'd split up-... I've, maybe not by my choosing or maybe we've kind of drifted apart, and then, uh, again, fucking no man's land of seeing someone, you don't really know what's going on.
11. JOJonny
  Mm-hmm.
12. CWChris Williamson
  And you may have
55:35 – 56:35
Dealing with residual resentment
1. CWChris Williamson
  a little bit of resentment-
2. JOJonny
  (coughs)
3. CWChris Williamson
  ... towards them. But then if they come back and you get to sleep with them one more time, gone, neutralized, absolutely, just immediately gone, because you're like-
4. JOJonny
  What, like the pain from the breakup?
5. CWChris Williamson
  Yeah. Because you're like, "Had her all along. Don't need to worry."
6. JOJonny
  Okay.
7. CWChris Williamson
  It's happened at least three times to me. Where I've been like, uh, uh, that breakup's stung a little bit more than I thought it would. I've got some residual resentment, a little bit of bitterness, a little bit of this, a little bit of that. Get to sleep with them again, like, "Pfft. What was I worrying about?"
8. JOJonny
  'Cause it, I suppose it damages your ...
9. CWChris Williamson
  Ego?
10. JOJonny
  Like, yeah. Like, "Am I desirable? Am I not desirable? They're saying I'm not." Like someone getting rid of something.
11. CWChris Williamson
  What do you think-
12. JOJonny
  It's almost like, like everyone always says, like they, they want to be able to say, "Oh, it was mutual."
13. CWChris Williamson
  Mm-hmm.
14. JOJonny
  If they had a breakup, they never want to-
15. CWChris Williamson
  There's always one person who pushes it more than the other.
16. JOJonny
  Mm-hmm.
17. CWChris Williamson
  Uh, so what do you think about this statement? "The power in a relationship lies with the person who cares the least."
56:35 – 57:35
The power in a relationship
1. JOJonny
  It's, it's probably true, but I think a successful relationship shouldn't have to rely on power struggles and-
2. CWChris Williamson
  Mm-hmm.
3. JOJonny
  ... um, and games of who cares and who doesn't care. Um, it shou- i- if, if it's a case of both people putting ... Like the person who suffers the most is definitely the one who cares the most. (smacks legs) But ...
4. CWChris Williamson
  Have you, can you see any of that, that power in a relationship lies with the person who cares least-
5. JOJonny
  Yeah. Well-
6. CWChris Williamson
  ... in, in previous relationships of yours?
7. JOJonny
  Well, it's, it's the same, like in, in any negotiation, you will have someone who cares the least and is most able to walk away, and they are going to be the one that has the bargaining power. But ... I, I, so I, I've, I've definitely experienced that. I think it, when it happens, it's when there isn't a shared vision for where it's going. I think, like, if both ... So back to the Eric Thomas advice of like, it's just problem-solving. Like, it's just professional problem-solving and an issue, like, that there's just ... You're two people who live together and share a lot of your life together. And shit's gonna happen that's
57:35 – 1:08:43
Managing others feelings emotions
1. JOJonny
  like, as minor as, "I was watching that. What are you doing?" To like, "Why did you make me feel this way? I really ..." You know, all these sorts of things. And it's managing someone else's feelings and emotions and helping them understand the, how you feel and how, what your emotions are. And if you have a share- shared view of where things are going-
2. CWChris Williamson
  Mm-hmm.
3. JOJonny
  And that that's an-
4. CWChris Williamson
  Mm-hmm.
5. JOJonny
  ... a, a future that you both want to be the case. And you won't argue about the small stuff, because it's all-
6. CWChris Williamson
  Because it's like, "Well-"
7. JOJonny
  ... aligned. "... we're moving in this direction." So I've written in there, um ... Or here. No, and in there. That a, that a relationship is like a business.
8. CWChris Williamson
  Mm-hmm.
9. JOJonny
  And in the same way that like Yusef and I, we're not in a rela- well, we are, I suppose we are in a relationship in a way. Um, but I, I, I won't let him ha- have sex with me ever.
10. CWChris Williamson
  (laughs)
11. JOJonny
  Um-
12. CWChris Williamson
  Much to my disappointment.
13. JOJonny
  (laughs) He keeps trying. But the point is, is that like, the little stuff is irrelevant because there's a shared view of where the, we'd like the business to go. So-
14. CWChris Williamson
  Communication.
15. JOJonny
  Yeah. And so, but I think if, if someone, let's say that Yusef didn't give a shit and I really cared-
16. CWChris Williamson
  Mm-hmm.
17. JOJonny
  ... then the arguments are just gonna-
18. CWChris Williamson
  Mm-hmm.
19. JOJonny
  ... erupt. Yeah.
20. CWChris Williamson
  So we've kind of jumped ahead to the, um, breakup thing, 'cause I think we can probably get away with a full episode on breakups. So I want to shelve that for now. How do you-
21. JOJonny
  Talk about cheating as well. Mm-hmm.
22. CWChris Williamson
  Yeah. How do you, um ... after the honeymoon period of a relationship drops off-
23. JOJonny
  Mm-hmm.
24. CWChris Williamson
  ... where do you go from there?
25. JOJonny
  (clears throat)
26. CWChris Williamson
  Like, have you got a framework for how you keep-
27. JOJonny
  That's the million-dollar question, isn't it? I think that's like-
28. CWChris Williamson
  You've got a fairly successful long-term relationship.
29. JOJonny
  Yeah. And you use a fairly successful framework for it as well.
30. CWChris Williamson
  So we're asking you-

Episode duration: 1:21:10

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Intro

Relationships 101

The No Mans Land

Seeing Someone

Facebook

Game of Emotional Chicken

Second Hand Car Market

Age Difference

Emotionally Unstable

Biological Clocks

Relationship Analogy

Serial Experiences

Experiment

Hot but not beautiful

Beauty and hotness

Snapchat filters

How to form a good relationship

How do you feel

The intangibles

What do you look for

How long have you been together

How to find the right person

The most important period in a relationship

How to approach a relationship

Finding the right person for you

Setting the tone

Differences between men and women

Career vs marriage

Spectrums

Attitude towards sex

Attitude towards life

What do you want someone compromising

Most painful breakup

Dealing with residual resentment

The power in a relationship

Managing others feelings emotions

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