How To Find & Maintain A Happy Relationship | Relationships 102

Chris Williamson 0:06 Relationships 102. Johnny and Yusuf from Propend Fitness are joining us again. Relationships 101 went down really well.

Chris Williamson 0:15 If you haven't watched it, link will be in the description and video guiding will make it appear around our heads.

Jonny 0:21 That's where that- that clip of you saying, "It doesn't have to be better, it just has to be different," is from.

Chris Williamson 0:25 It is indeed, man. That Family Guy-

Yusef 0:27 Why men cheat, as explained by Family Guy.

Chris Williamson 0:29 Man.

Yusef 0:29 Very BuzzFeed-y video, but oh well.

Chris Williamson 0:31 Oh, crazy BuzzFeed-y, but went- went down well. So today we are going to do Relationships 102. I think we're gonna talk a little bit more about how to cultivate a good relationship, some principles that you can stick to. I've got some comments to make about what seeing someone means, which is a no man's land of emotional distress. So Relationships 102. Where did we leave off last time?

Yusef 0:58 We- we talked about the initial phase of like having me- met someone to beginning a something, some-

Chris Williamson 1:05 Something slightly more exclusive.

Yusef 1:07 ... continued. Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:07 Yeah. I think, I wanna, I- I'm gonna delve straight in.

Chris Williamson 1:12 I don't know whether you two, because both of you are kind of like serial monogamists, right? Ish.

Yusef 1:19 Y- yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:19 Like f- at least in recent-

Yusef 1:20 Ish.

Chris Williamson 1:20 ... recent memory as far as-

Jonny 1:21 Certainly recently, yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:22 Yeah, um, and I think there's a, for anyone who's listening who's been used to being single and hasn't been in like a proper, proper relationship for a little while, you will know the no man's land of emotional turmoil that is seeing somebody.

Jonny 1:35 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:35 And I think that that, it is just an absolute barren wasteland of nothingness, meaningless, like it is one step above having sex with being s- friends with benefits.

Jonny 1:48 Mm-hmm.

Yusef 1:48 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:48 And everything below being exclusive.

Jonny 1:51 There's a bit of commitment but no reward.

Chris Williamson 1:53 So I think anyone who's seeing somebody, unless it's mutually and absolutely transparently explained to both parties, just needs to give up on it now. You need to either step forward into a relationship or-

Jonny 2:06 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 2:06 ... step back into having sex with other people as well. And I'll explain why. (laughs) What are you laughing at?

Yusef 2:12 Um, just you reminded me about the friends with benefits things, and I, uh, David was talking about this too that we, I think if you're just nice to someone who is a friends with benefit, a friend with a benefit-

Chris Williamson 2:24 Yeah.

Yusef 2:26 ... their assumption, because they're on the- the defensive is like, "Whoa, whoa, don't fall in love with me now." And you're like, "All right, lettuce head, like I'm not gonna fall, I'm- I'm just- just being nice."

Chris Williamson 2:35 Yeah.

Yusef 2:35 But it's like the instant fear that the other person is becoming too attached.

Chris Williamson 2:41 Yeah. So I think the reason that I don't like seeing somebody, and I can speak from personal experience on this, what you think you're getting when you start seeing somebody is all of the benefits of having a regular girlfriend or boyfriend with none of the, "It's down the far side, mate. Are you drinking? You're gonna have to reach." Um, with none of the disadvantages, with none of the, um, justification for them to ask you where you've been or who you've been messaging or whatever. You wanna be able to have your cake and eat it, and I think that people believe that that's-

Yusef 3:11 This is friends with benefits or this is seeing someone?

Chris Williamson 3:12 No, this is see- seeing someone. Um, I think friends with benefits, like it just so quickly turns into seeing someone now. And the- the way that you pull that back, the only way that you can do that, and the only way you can fix it, is by

Chris Williamson 3:25 being completely transparent about exactly what's going on and continuing to do it all the time. But what happens so much-

Yusef 3:31 And long term friends with benefits, like truly situation has to either be two psychopaths or two really busy people that just have very, very much-

Chris Williamson 3:39 Utilitarian transactional relationship.

Yusef 3:41 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 3:41 Like I need something from you, you need something from me, a little bit of companionship, a lot of sex.

Yusef 3:46 It's almost like bi, it's bilateral prostitution where the- the feet cancels each other out and so they're both at break even again.

Chris Williamson 3:50 Yeah. Fair. (laughs)

Yusef 3:56 (laughs)

Jonny 3:56 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 3:56 You're laughing at bilateral prostitution?

Jonny 3:58 It was just the way you, that you delivered it from a place of anger and then you looked at me like... (laughs)

Yusef 4:03 Anger.

Chris Williamson 4:05 So, um, yeah, I think seeing someone is just, it's a- a- a terrible position to be in.

Jonny 4:12 So you're- you're repeatedly having sex with the same person?

Chris Williamson 4:15 Yeah.

Jonny 4:16 Are there-

Chris Williamson 4:17 It's- it's not-

Jonny 4:17 Does anything else happen?

Chris Williamson 4:18 No. So it's seeing someone is being boyfriend or girlfriend with a partner without being the title.

Yusef 4:24 Without the label. Okay.

Chris Williamson 4:25 Yeah.

Jonny 4:25 Okay.

Chris Williamson 4:25 It's what people believe, and what they think-

Jonny 4:28 That just feels pedantry 101 to me. Like I don't understand where-

Yusef 4:33 Well, it's a precursor, isn't it? It's- it's where both parties are too afraid to...

Jonny 4:37 What to say?

Yusef 4:38 Yeah, or they feel like it's too early.

Jonny 4:38 So you're let, you're spending a bit of time at each other's houses maybe.

Chris Williamson 4:42 Mm-hmm.

Jonny 4:42 Go for food.

Chris Williamson 4:43 You probably spend- spend a lot of time with each other.

Jonny 4:44 But it's not...

Chris Williamson 4:46 We are boyfriend and girlfriend and-

Jonny 4:47 That's

Jonny 4:48 it.

Chris Williamson 4:48 ... I mean, the universal language, the universal currency of this is, is it Facebook official?

Jonny 4:53 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 4:53 Like if it's not listed on Facebook-

Jonny 4:55 It's a great system.

Yusef 4:56 Have you ever listed a relationship on Facebook?

Chris Williamson 4:58 Yeah.

Jonny 4:59 I have.

Yusef 4:59 Really?

Jonny 5:00 I mean, why not?

Yusef 5:01 Like, "Jonathan is seeing..."

Jonny 5:03 It's on my profile now.

Yusef 5:04 (hiccups)

Jonny 5:05 Exactly. That's exactly what it's like.

Chris Williamson 5:07 There you go. That's what you think.

Yusef 5:07 That was a hiccup of shock.

Chris Williamson 5:09 Um...

Jonny 5:09 (laughs)

Yusef 5:10 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 5:11 It's the diaphragm going (gagging noise)

Jonny 5:13 Why- why- why not?

Chris Williamson 5:15 You don't like personal information being out in the open world, do you?

Yusef 5:17 Absolutely not, especially not a relationship. I just think that's nobody's business.

Chris Williamson 5:23 Interesting.

Yusef 5:24 But-

Jonny 5:24 Well, it's my business and the other person's business.

Yusef 5:26 Yeah.

Jonny 5:27 And I suppose your business, Chris's business.

Chris Williamson 5:31 To a degree.

Yusef 5:31 Is it Facebook's business?

Jonny 5:32 I don't- I don't make any money off your relationship. I'm not sure it's my business at all.

Chris Williamson 5:34 How would you know that you don't? In fact, yes, you do.

Jonny 5:37 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 5:37 Yeah, you're right, I do.

Jonny 5:38 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 5:40 Thanks for coming to my club nights, Becca.

Jonny 5:41 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 5:42 So, um, yeah, basically

Chris Williamson 5:44 I think people believe that seeing someone is this wonderful best of both worlds scenario where you're gonna get companionship but also freedom. And what actually inevitably-

Jonny 5:53 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 5:53 ... ends up happening is it's a game of emotional chicken with the other person.

Jonny 5:57 Thinly sliced.

Chris Williamson 5:58 Thinly sliced chicken in a pressure cooker. And what- what you're play, the way that the game of chicken works is whoever gets feelings first, loses.And it just ends up, it's a countdown clock to someone doing something which crosses a boundary that was never defined.

Jonny 6:17 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 6:17 Like, if you sleep with someone else, and you haven't identified that you're supposed to be exclusive with someone because seeing someone is in this beautiful-

Jonny 6:27 Yeah, then, then there's a slimy get out card for the other person, being like, "Oh, well, we never said that we were exclusives, so-"

Chris Williamson 6:32 Yeah.

Jonny 6:32 "... actually, I might free range or do whatever." And it's like, mm-

Chris Williamson 6:34 You're not.

Jonny 6:34 ... there is a, there's kind of a code of honor-

Chris Williamson 6:36 Mm-hmm.

Jonny 6:36 ... where th- yes, there, it hasn't been discussed yet, there's an implication, it's, it's a gray area.

Chris Williamson 6:43 You don't cross it, but-

Jonny 6:44 So- ... shit'll get off the pot, really, is the advice for that, isn't it?

Chris Williamson 6:47 (laughs)

Jonny 6:47 I just think it's a, it's not being scared and just-

Chris Williamson 6:49 Yeah.

Jonny 6:49 But one of the problems is- No, you're thinking to sell them at seven quid an hour.

Chris Williamson 6:52 (laughs)

Jonny 6:52 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 6:53 So and so-

Jonny 6:54 76. Yeah.

Chris Williamson 6:54 I think we'll need the clip of that as well.

Jonny 6:56 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 6:56 Yeah. Dean will make sure that that goes in. So, I think that basically you need to, you need to make a commitment with regards to this sort of stuff, because you think you're getting the best of both worlds and you're actually not. You're not getting anything of either-

Jonny 7:10 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 7:11 ... because, (coughs) uh, certainly for me, when I'm in situations like that, if I do start chatting to someone else or start spending time with another girl or s- whatever, I immediately get these horrible pangs of guilt about doing something, and then the thought loop of, "Well, I'm not doing anything wrong. Well, I should be allowed to do this. Well, actually no, because you..." And I know in my heart of hearts that my deepest virtue says no.

Jonny 7:33 The fact that that thought loop is going on-

Chris Williamson 7:35 Yeah.

Jonny 7:35 ... is the internal f- struggle in itself.

Chris Williamson 7:37 Yeah.

Jonny 7:37 Like, ripping inside.

Chris Williamson 7:37 And the other thing is, you go, "Well, you never know what the other person's doing." Or, well, you know, they haven't said, she hasn't said that she's not gonna do it. So you just keep on going backwards and forwards and backwards-

Jonny 7:44 It's wild that there should just be contracts in place the whole time.

Chris Williamson 7:47 Contractually obligations?

Jonny 7:48 Ma-

Chris Williamson 7:49 I mean, you've made-

Jonny 7:50 You've made those.

Chris Williamson 7:50 ... you've not got a contract with Becca.

Jonny 7:51 I don't, but ... Well, no. No, I don't. Well, as far as you know.

Chris Williamson 7:54 Per-

Jonny 7:54 As far as I'm willing to admit-

Chris Williamson 7:56 (laughs)

Jonny 7:56 ... I don't have a contract.

Chris Williamson 7:57 (laughs)

Jonny 7:57 So I remember the conclusion-

Chris Williamson 7:59 Has she, has she contracted you in?

Jonny 8:00 I've contracted her in.

Chris Williamson 8:01 Have you?

Jonny 8:01 No. The conclusion of relationships 101, or one of them, was that many of these gaps that we see that cause suffering are from lack of clear communication.

Chris Williamson 8:12 100%.

Jonny 8:12 Mm-hmm. And in this case it's exactly the same.

Chris Williamson 8:15 100%.

Jonny 8:15 But nobody can socially acceptably say like, "Oh, I'm too afraid of commitment to give us a label yet." Or, "I'm, I'm still not sure if I like you fully, so I don't want to jump in." 'Cause saying that is a social faux pas in itself.

Chris Williamson 8:27 Mm-hmm.

Jonny 8:28 So then there needs to be a way to either tactfully express that.

Chris Williamson 8:30 So if both people separately discuss it with a solicitor?

Jonny 8:33 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 8:33 Contract to pull together. Get a bursar.

Jonny 8:35 Yeah. Well-

Chris Williamson 8:35 Get a bursar involved.

Jonny 8:36 So thi- this is why Tinder-

Chris Williamson 8:37 Manages the finances of a school.

Jonny 8:38 (laughs) So the, like, the, the idea behind Tinder could work at the next level as well, which is that both people put in a blind vote. They don't get to see what the other person's seen.

Chris Williamson 8:47 It's sort of like steal, share or steal, aren't you?

Jonny 8:48 Sh- yes, it, exa- it's, it is split or...

Chris Williamson 8:50 It's a prisoner's dilemma then.

Jonny 8:52 Because you, you described it as chicken, which is exactly what it is. Like, it, it is game theory, it's the-

Chris Williamson 8:56 Mm-hmm.

Jonny 8:56 ... prisoner's dilemma, where if both people split, then fine. If one person splits, the other person steals, that's one person cheating and the other person...

Chris Williamson 9:03 Mm-hmm.

Jonny 9:03 Well, not cheating, but-

Chris Williamson 9:04 Mm-hmm. And if they both-

Jonny 9:05 ... defected.

Chris Williamson 9:05 ... both cheat, then fine.

Jonny 9:06 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 9:07 I, I just think it, it's such a, like, 'cause I see it all the time, right? Like, I've, I've got access to 200 under 21-year-old guys and 200 under 21-year-old girls, and-

Jonny 9:19 My car can go 100 miles an hour.

Chris Williamson 9:22 (laughs)

Jonny 9:23 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 9:23 (laughs)

Jonny 9:23 I know the words to Candle in the Wind.

Chris Williamson 9:25 (laughs)

Jonny 9:26 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 9:26 There's no-

Jonny 9:26 If I win, I can spoon Rose once.

Chris Williamson 9:27 That is a long joke that I'm not prepared-

Jonny 9:30 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 9:30 I am not prepared to get into today. (laughs)

Jonny 9:35 (laughs) Well, let's explain. So-

Chris Williamson 9:36 No, no.

Jonny 9:36 Back in 1997-

Chris Williamson 9:38 Oh, yeah.

Jonny 9:38 (laughs) Let me tell you about the old, old wooden trees. So-

Chris Williamson 9:42 Just outdoing each other with rubbish claims.

Jonny 9:44 I, I have a framework for this discussion.

Chris Williamson 9:46 Fantastic.

Jonny 9:46 Do you wanna hear the framework?

Chris Williamson 9:47 Yeah.

Jonny 9:47 'Cause I think it would help frame all of this.

Chris Williamson 9:49 Mm-hmm.

Jonny 9:49 Great. Love a framework. Question one is, should we be in a relationship at all?

Chris Williamson 9:56 Who are you asking? Me?

Jonny 9:57 Th- this is the beginning of the framework, Chris. It's a rhetorical question. So relationship versus being single, and then once you've decided that I feel like I'm gonna put across as a pretty strong argument that you should be in a relationship, then who should you be in a relationship with?

Chris Williamson 10:11 Mm-hmm.

Jonny 10:11 And then, as I hear you sort of about to ask, how do I find the person that I'm about to get in a relationship with?

Chris Williamson 10:17 You know, what, why, how. (laughs)

Jonny 10:17 Exactly. And then once I've found that person, well, the next question is-

Chris Williamson 10:21 When, when do I get them?

Jonny 10:22 Not when, that's covered in-

Chris Williamson 10:22 Oh.

Jonny 10:22 ... in how.

Chris Williamson 10:23 (laughs)

Jonny 10:24 (laughs) Um, the next question is- (laughs) ... once you're in a relationship with that person, how do you keep that person in a relationship with you? Without using-

Chris Williamson 10:31 Balling chains.

Jonny 10:31 Without using stuff like that or-

Chris Williamson 10:33 You fucking strong arm them.

Jonny 10:34 ... strong, like, good padlocks. This is the, this is the noogie, isn't it? The, the top of the head- Yeah. ... and then circular motion. Yep. Like that. Exactly like that.

Chris Williamson 10:40 Just like that.

Jonny 10:40 Have you seen, you must have seen my notes.

Chris Williamson 10:42 Uh, sorry, I was-

Jonny 10:43 Rude.

Chris Williamson 10:44 I was cheating.

Jonny 10:45 Rude. Okay, so I think we've covered, I think we've covered most of the ones up to how do you keep a relationship? I don't think we have.

Chris Williamson 10:55 Okay.

Jonny 10:57 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 10:59 I think let's move forward-

Jonny 11:00 It's interesting progress.

Chris Williamson 11:01 Let's move forward into relationships 'cause I c- I want to do s- a whole-

Jonny 11:04 All right.

Chris Williamson 11:04 ... one on single, single time.

Jonny 11:05 I, I want to make one point.

Chris Williamson 11:07 Yeah.

Jonny 11:07 Which is that I think

Jonny 11:10 where a lot of people get trapped (laughs) , you look, you look immediately bored. (laughs) You just went-

Chris Williamson 11:15 That's just my face?

Jonny 11:16 You just went...

Chris Williamson 11:17 That's my r- that's my resting bitch face?

Jonny 11:19 Secondhand car market, that's what it's like.

Chris Williamson 11:22 You were talking about this the other day.

Jonny 11:23 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 11:23 We discussed this in the big dicks group, didn't we?

Jonny 11:26 We did. So I think people ... So this is, this is under should I be in a relationship or not? So let's say you're 25, for example, and you're thinking, "I'm moving towards 30 quicker than I feel comfortable with. I'm not really happy with where my life is. I feel like maybe I should be getting in a relationship." Maybe a few of your friends are, one of them's engaged, couple of them are maybe having kids or something like that. Had to go to 15 weddings in the last month.

Chris Williamson 11:49 Yeah.

Jonny 11:49 I mean, me too. (laughs) Um, and so you, you, there's this decision of, like, "Should I be single or not?" And I think there's a point at which, if you're not careful, all of the people who are people that you would actually want to be in a relationship with are in relationships, and then what you're left with is- The dregs. Yeah. Sort of.

Chris Williamson 12:08 Scraping the bottom of the barrel. I mean-

Jonny 12:09 Which is like when you're buying a secondhand car, you don't know whether it's a great value...... steel, or whether it's two cars that have been welded together and they're giving you shit certificates and-

Yusef 12:18 So, well, well, 'cause what, what you've got there is there is a statistical distribution of ages that people typically pair off at.

Jonny 12:26 Mm-hmm.

Narrator 12:26 (clears throat)

Yusef 12:26 As you grow older, that total population diminishes, but also the average quality also drops.

Jonny 12:34 Yeah.

Yusef 12:35 And so-

Chris Williamson 12:35 You thought, you presumed that the cream gets taken off the top first.

Jonny 12:37 For both-

Yusef 12:37 Cream gets taken off the top-

Jonny 12:38 For bo- for both men and women.

Yusef 12:39 ... which brings the mean down.

Chris Williamson 12:41 Mm-hmm.

Yusef 12:41 And so, yes, there still are high-quality people on both ends of that, that now-skewed bell curve, but you-

Chris Williamson 12:49 Hard to find.

Jonny 12:49 So there's fewer, fewer per sample size, right?

Chris Williamson 12:51 Mm-hmm.

Yusef 12:51 Fewer per sample size and smaller sample size, so-

Jonny 12:54 Which means the price is higher, which means you've gotta be more attractive and better in every way to access those people.

Chris Williamson 12:58 The only way that this works, and you put it in the group, and I'm gonna use my same defense against this-

Jonny 13:03 Go for it.

Chris Williamson 13:03 ... is someone who's 30 years old and single-

Jonny 13:05 Hit me.

Chris Williamson 13:06 ... I should be, by all means, shitting myself that I don't have a girlfriend. But that's you presuming that I'm looking at girls that are my age.

Jonny 13:13 You ... So, so I agree, but it's like, it's like if I said to you, "There are, the, there is a range of cars that you can buy."

Chris Williamson 13:22 Mm-hmm.

Jonny 13:23 "So, let's say cars that were made in a 10-year period."

Chris Williamson 13:25 Mm-hmm.

Jonny 13:25 "And you can buy from them whenever you want, but everyone else is also trying to buy from that pool of cars. And some of them may come back on the market, some of them may be-"

Chris Williamson 13:34 Mm-hmm.

Jonny 13:34 "... kept in a garage. And yeah, you can wait until the ones that are 10 years younger are coming up to 30-"

Chris Williamson 13:40 Mm-hmm.

Jonny 13:40 "... if you want to, or you can secure a position. But you sit outside of this entire equation for a whole host of reasons that we're not gonna get into in the podcast."

Chris Williamson 13:51 (clears throat)

Jonny 13:51 "But for the average person who doesn't have an Instagram funnel."

Narrator 13:56 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 13:56 (laughs) An Instagram funnel.

Jonny 13:58 These things need ... And if you wanna know what the Instagram funnel is-

Chris Williamson 14:01 Bum-ba-da-bum-ba-dum. (laughs)

Jonny 14:03 (laughs)

Narrator 14:03 (popping noise)

Jonny 14:04 That. If you wanna know what that is, send us a message.

Chris Williamson 14:07 Um, so I think-

Jonny 14:08 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 14:08 I think another, I think another part to, before you move on from that.

Jonny 14:11 Okay. I thought, I thought, I thought we'd covered this.

Narrator 14:14 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 14:14 You, you've opened up a, a new, a, a new doorway. I enjoy it. So-

Yusef 14:18 The, the age difference.

Chris Williamson 14:19 So age differential's a big deal because-

Yusef 14:20 So we're gonna have to get that picture up. Um, I'm gonna send it to video-

Jonny 14:24 'Cause it's porn.

Yusef 14:24 ... ID team to put this up. No, so it's a graph.

Jonny 14:26 You always wanna put porn on.

Yusef 14:26 (laughs) Always. It's, so it's a, a data plot of the average preference of ages that men-

Jonny 14:34 Oh.

Yusef 14:34 ... prefer, that, that people prefer in the opposite sex, um, as defined by match.com.

Jonny 14:38 Mm-hmm.

Yusef 14:39 And it's depressing because for women, the age that they prefer in men is typically a year or two older than them, maybe up to five, seven years older than them.

Chris Williamson 14:48 It then, it then flips after a little while though, right?

Yusef 14:50 It flips at the age of, like, 50 and 60, they want someone who's the same age, and then slightly younger.

Jonny 14:55 Mm-hmm.

Yusef 14:55 For men, the age that they prefer in women-

Chris Williamson 14:57 (laughs) It's that vertical line.

Yusef 14:58 ... regardless of their age, is always-

Chris Williamson 15:00 21.

Yusef 15:00 ... 21.

Jonny 15:01 (laughs)

Yusef 15:01 And w- when, I think when you're 40, you're into, like, the slightly older woman at 24, and then it goes back to 21.

Chris Williamson 15:06 It goes back? (laughs)

Jonny 15:07 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 15:07 It's like-

Jonny 15:07 'Cause tha- that's like the, "Come on."

Chris Williamson 15:08 It's like you relapse at 50 back to wanting a 21-year-old.

Jonny 15:11 Come on here. E- Enough, enough's enough. I need to start liking older ... Actually, fuck this.

Narrator 15:13 Oh. (laughs)

Chris Williamson 15:14 No, no, no.

Yusef 15:14 20 to 21.

Chris Williamson 15:15 Tried a 24-year-old, I'm going for a 21-year-old.

Yusef 15:17 But I mean, there is, there's probably a, there's a biological explanation for that.

Chris Williamson 15:20 So i- I'm gonna, I'm also gonna throw a spanner in the works with that.

Chris Williamson 15:24 If I look at a 21-year-old girl now-

Jonny 15:26 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 15:26 ... I think to myself, "Emotionally unstable."

Yusef 15:28 I, I think, "Oh, she'll be boring to hang around with," e- and, like, that's n- just because.

Chris Williamson 15:33 Sorry, all 21-year-old girls who are out there, you are lovely, but you're going to be more lovely in about three years time.

Jonny 15:37 Lovely but boring and emotionally unstable.

Yusef 15:39 Th- no. (laughs)

Jonny 15:40 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 15:40 You're just going to be less emotionally unstable and less boring in-

Yusef 15:43 I think when I was 21, I didn't find 21-year-old girls boring, but I think as you have less and less in common as you get older, then they do go up.

Jonny 15:48 Yeah, that's 'cause you were looking at 17-year-old girls.

Narrator 15:50 (laughs)

Jonny 15:52 J- j- joke's on you.

Chris Williamson 15:52 Careful. Don't wind it back too much.

Jonny 15:55 I said 17. I said 17.

Yusef 15:55 Half your age plus seven.

Jonny 15:57 That's the formula.

Chris Williamson 15:57 That's the rule, isn't it?

Jonny 15:58 SCOV formula.

Chris Williamson 15:59 Um, so

Chris Williamson 16:00 yeah, I think I, I, I totally do get that, and I think that ... (clicks tongue) The elephant in the room when you're talking about guys versus girls is that women's biological clocks tick-

Jonny 16:11 Yep.

Chris Williamson 16:11 ... a lot more harshly than men's do.

Yusef 16:14 So the men are seeking fertility, ultimately, whereas for women, they're seeking-

Jonny 16:18 Isn't it like 18 that a woman's-

Yusef 16:20 Roughly, yeah.

Jonny 16:21 ... like, the peak, theoretical peak of fertility in?

Chris Williamson 16:23 Is that correct?

Jonny 16:24 Yeah. You would just-

Chris Williamson 16:25 Which, you have your best chance of being pregnant at 18, and it gets more difficult thereafter?

Yusef 16:29 I think so, yeah.

Jonny 16:30 Wow.

Yusef 16:31 So-

Jonny 16:31 Which means that if, assuming that's true, men are just gonna find 18-year-olds, which is, I suppose 21's close enough, isn't it?

Yusef 16:38 18 looks too much like a, too much like a child for me.

Jonny 16:42 Well-

Yusef 16:42 I think, like-

Jonny 16:43 I'm, I'm not saying-

Chris Williamson 16:44 You're talking evolutionarily, right?

Jonny 16:44 I'm not saying like, "Eugh, I love 18-year-old girls."

Narrator 16:47 (laughs)

Jonny 16:47 I'm saying statistically speaking.

Yusef 16:49 Yeah.

Jonny 16:49 With that in mind.

Yusef 16:50 Women are most fertile.

Jonny 16:50 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 16:50 That's how you're programmed, right, to see-

Jonny 16:52 Which I think is, is insidious, to be honest, that that's, we're, we're programmed like that.

Chris Williamson 16:59 Why? Why is it insidious?

Jonny 16:59 Someone should undo it all.

Chris Williamson 17:00 Yeah, they should change it.

Jonny 17:01 Well, it's just unfair, isn't it?

Chris Williamson 17:03 (laughs) At 18?

Yusef 17:04 There's so much about our biology that's unfair and just, like, designed to-

Chris Williamson 17:06 But it wasn't, it wasn't designed for this time or place, was it? That's why.

Jonny 17:09 Well, someone should change it.

Chris Williamson 17:10 Yeah, they should s-

Jonny 17:11 IOS is updated all the time.

Chris Williamson 17:12 I bet Zucke- I bet Zuckerberg could get in there.

Jonny 17:14 Yeah.

Yusef 17:14 Even with that headset thing, we could do something about that, couldn't we?

Chris Williamson 17:16 Yeah. Fine.

Jonny 17:17 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 17:17 Moving on.

Jonny 17:18 So, business versus a job is like relationship versus being single, so ... Or an asset versus an expense. So people think that being in a relationship is-

Yusef 17:29 Job versus business?

Jonny 17:32 You must've been looking at my notes.

Yusef 17:33 No.

Jonny 17:34 (laughs)

Narrator 17:34 (laughs)

Yusef 17:34 That's crazy. Anyway.

Chris Williamson 17:35 Okay.

Chris Williamson 17:36 Um, we all watch far too much of the same stuff, don't we?

Jonny 17:39 Yeah. Too much Big Brother and Love Island, and p- we're a- always watching it. Um, so-

Yusef 17:45 All rounded up with a pink blanket and a pillow.

Jonny 17:47 (laughs)

Narrator 17:47 (laughs)

Yusef 17:47 We cuddle that together. Ice cream, just watching.

Jonny 17:49 That's what we've just been doing before this went awkward.

Chris Williamson 17:50 Face mask.

Yusef 17:51 Oh, yeah.

Jonny 17:52 Yeah.

Yusef 17:52 Cucumber.

Jonny 17:52 Cucumber. Um-

Yusef 17:54 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 17:54 How do you watch it through the cucumber?

Jonny 17:56 (laughs) People at home ... (laughs) People think that a, that a relationship is a, a liability. Shall I wait?

Yusef 18:02 No, no.

Chris Williamson 18:03 We're getting serious.

Jonny 18:04 We're getting-

Yusef 18:04 Th- that's, that's like when a teacher in a class said, "All right. Well, I'm guessing by your chattering that you finished the test paper now."

Chris Williamson 18:10 That you don't want it.

Jonny 18:11 That you don't want a break.

Yusef 18:11 No. (laughs)

Jonny 18:12 The bell is for me, not for you.

Chris Williamson 18:15 Come on.

Jonny 18:16 Um, so-... job, you get a salary and a pension, but at the end of a week or a month, like, you have no residual value in that. Which is the same as ser- serially dating people, so you build up a little bit of equity in something and then it disappears, build up a little bit of equity and it disappears. With a business or an asset, there's a relationship analogy, everything you do, like every good experience you have, every memory you create is- is accumulating-

Chris Williamson 18:44 Mm-hmm.

Jonny 18:45 ... that you are generating equity. Is that your analogy?

Yusef 18:48 I- I think so. I wrote this note in August, so.

Jonny 18:51 (laughs)

Yusef 18:51 So I can't even remember my analogy now.

Chris Williamson 18:53 I totally- I totally get- I totally get what you mean, but it- well, it's- it's- is it a single use?

Yusef 18:58 You explained it much better. You are the accountant, so.

Jonny 19:00 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 19:00 Is it a single use transactional kind of thing-

Jonny 19:03 Exactly.

Chris Williamson 19:03 ... that's purely for the fleeting sense of enjoyment you get while you're there-

Jonny 19:06 Exactly.

Chris Williamson 19:06 ... versus-

Yusef 19:07 So that's interesting because we- we talked about this in a- in a private WhatsApp inner circle thread-

Chris Williamson 19:12 Mm-hmm.

Yusef 19:12 ... the other day, which was (clears throat) that these- these serial experiences may have value of their own, they may not-

Chris Williamson 19:19 Mm-hmm.

Yusef 19:19 ... but the overarching value could be that they are to give you enough experience to prepare you for being able to discriminate and pick a better mate long term.

Chris Williamson 19:31 Mm-hmm.

Yusef 19:31 Or to give you enough experience, enough width of experience to know if you're in a good or a bad position later on.

Chris Williamson 19:37 I- I think what's- what's interesting about what you were talking about, we'll come back to the point about this game of chicken of trying to find someone before they get taken, so to speak.

Jonny 19:45 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 19:46 Um, what's interesting there is the point that I made again in- in the chat that we were on about where I said I don't know if I want to be the first round for a 22-year-old, 23-year-old rocket who is going to be a fantastic wife later in life.

Yusef 20:03 As in you-

Chris Williamson 20:03 But needs to go through a divorce.

Jonny 20:05 So, I ... (laughs)

Yusef 20:06 You- you don't want to be a learning experience for someone. Yeah.

Jonny 20:10 Yeah. Maybe, I think maybe not a divorce.

Chris Williamson 20:11 You understand what I mean though?

Jonny 20:12 I- I... Completely. I think people who end up marrying the person they- the first person they slept with, for example-

Chris Williamson 20:19 Mm-hmm.

Jonny 20:20 ... I think that's a- a recipe for disaster, just personally.

Yusef 20:23 That's like- that's like putting all your money into a single stock and just ...

Chris Williamson 20:25 But if- the other thing as well is, if you don't know what you're missing, ignorance but- ignorance can be bliss.

Jonny 20:31 So- so that- that would be fine if we didn't live in a very sexualized society where it- there's hints of what you're missing everywhere.

Chris Williamson 20:37 Good point.

Jonny 20:38 So like-

Yusef 20:38 A hint is more than a hint.

Jonny 20:39 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 20:40 Like, have I... So I've got a little-

Yusef 20:42 Because everyone's trying to signal there.

Jonny 20:44 Constantly.

Chris Williamson 20:45 Yeah.

Jonny 20:45 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 20:45 I'm going to steal a little bit of content from Bret Weinstein, Heather Haying and Joe Rogan here, but I don't think either of you two have listened to the podcast, so it's going to be quite interesting.

Chris Williamson 20:54 For the listeners at home, I'm going to do a little experiment. So ...

Jonny 20:57 Oh, God.

Chris Williamson 20:58 Can you both imagine for me please, a woman who is beautiful ...

Jonny 21:03 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 21:03 ... but not hot.

Jonny 21:04 Mm-hmm.

Yusef 21:06 (groans) It's like a 19th century with a little-

Chris Williamson 21:09 No, currently.

Yusef 21:09 ... bow and... Okay.

Chris Williamson 21:11 Woman who's beautiful, but not hot.

Yusef 21:13 Okay.

Jonny 21:13 Just by our understandings of those-

Chris Williamson 21:15 However you want to interpret it. Beautiful, but not hot. Okay? So you got that in your mind?

Jonny 21:19 (sighs)

Yusef 21:19 Yeah.

Jonny 21:19 No. I'm just- I'm honestly struggling.

Chris Williamson 21:22 It's the kind of-

Jonny 21:22 I'll- I'll persist.

Yusef 21:23 Okay.

Chris Williamson 21:23 Okay?

Jonny 21:24 Continue.

Chris Williamson 21:24 So, can you now imagine someone who's hot, but not beautiful?

Yusef 21:27 Mm-hmm.

Jonny 21:27 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 21:28 Okay. So, the argument that Heather Haying and Bret Weinstein make on Joe Rogan's podcast is that men's- men's, uh, values that they're looking for in women have become skewed-

Jonny 21:43 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 21:43 ... to work on hotness and not beauty.

Jonny 21:45 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 21:45 And beauty is timeless, and it's the sort of thing that continues throughout life. So, a good example would be someone like Dame Judi Dench or something like that. You know, someone who's got some beauty, some grace about her-

Jonny 21:59 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 21:59 ... but you don't think is hot.

Jonny 22:01 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 22:01 Hot but not beautiful would be tarty girl-

Jonny 22:04 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 22:04 ... who you want to have sex with, but you wouldn't take home to the parents. I think that downhill from that, or downstream from that, should I say, there's other implications about the way that they hold themselves, the values that they hold, et cetera, et cetera.

Jonny 22:16 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 22:16 But even if you just take it on a surface level about the way that they look, there is definitely a distinction to be made between beauty and hotness.

Jonny 22:22 Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Chris Williamson 22:23 And what's happening with a lot of beauty products now, Oil of Olay and whatever else it is-

Jonny 22:28 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 22:28 ... I don't know, I'm just thinking about what's in my mom's drawer.

Yusef 22:31 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 22:31 Um ...

Yusef 22:32 That's a very mum product if you're being honest with me.

Chris Williamson 22:33 Yeah, no, yeah. What- what do girls use? Clarins. No, I use.

Yusef 22:36 You know what? That- that also betrays your age because it used to be called Oil of Ulay, and then they changed it to Olay, just like they changed Jif to Cif.

Jonny 22:44 Oh, 'cause loads of like Spanish people couldn't pronounce it, wasn't it?

Yusef 22:46 I think it means-

Jonny 22:47 What did we name it?

Yusef 22:47 It means like Willy in Swedish or something, so yeah.

Jonny 22:50 Ah, ... from the Swedish sales. So yeah, the beauty and hotness scale is something that's really interesting and what they're saying is that beauty products are,

Jonny 23:00 um, signaling for hotness and not beauty.

Chris Williamson 23:04 Mm-hmm.

Jonny 23:04 And this is confusing men's sort of radar and compass in terms of what they're looking for as well, because you really want to be looking for beauty, not hotness. If hotness is going to wane within the next five to ten years, and this is the same for-

Yusef 23:17 Is that because it's easier to emulate hotness than it is to emulate beauty?

Chris Williamson 23:20 I think there's more depth to beauty for sure. And also-

Jonny 23:22 Hotness feels like painted on, you know?

Yusef 23:24 Well your surface is because you've painted it on yourself, that's why.

Jonny 23:26 Feels created.

Chris Williamson 23:26 Yeah, it's a lot more flashy lights, neon sort of stuff.

Jonny 23:28 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 23:29 And less subtle. And the other thing as well that's kind of savage-

Yusef 23:32 Because it's easy enough to get a tan and Botox and like just all the like, um, stuff that if you looked at someone from a distance-

Chris Williamson 23:38 Mm-hmm.

Yusef 23:39 ... just for a flash, you'd be like "Oh yeah."

Jonny 23:41 But what- what's so inter- if you think of like FHM cover model, for example.

Chris Williamson 23:45 Mm-hmm.

Jonny 23:45 Or like, you know what I mean, Nuts and Zoo and all that. I- I realize-

Chris Williamson 23:48 Fast Car Magazine.

Jonny 23:49 ... that doesn't exist anymore. But yeah, so like the- the women portrayed on that-

Yusef 23:52 I sound like such a granddad when we're talking about this stuff.

Jonny 23:53 I know. (laughs) That's the most recent example.

Yusef 23:55 Like, "Oh, I'm in Vueling and Nuts Magazine."

Jonny 23:57 But they... What I- what I always used to find so interesting is like someone has arranged that image in a way that they know guys look at that and find whatever that arrangement, like whatever they're wearing in that way attractive.

Chris Williamson 24:09 Mm-hmm.

Jonny 24:10 But like a lot of it, like if you saw someone walking down the street like that, you'd be like, "That's ridiculous."

Chris Williamson 24:14 Mm-hmm.

Jonny 24:14 But it's like the combination of certain colors and items of clothing-

Chris Williamson 24:19 Mm-hmm.

Jonny 24:19 ... that they know just hit.

Chris Williamson 24:20 So hotness triggering, right?

Yusef 24:21 I'd love to see machine learning algorithm come to a conclusion.

Chris Williamson 24:25 Did you see-

Jonny 24:26 Just to turn people on and watch it. God.

Yusef 24:28 Yeah, and see what- what it arrived at.

Chris Williamson 24:28 Did you

Chris Williamson 24:29 read the post that I put in the inner circle yesterday about the Snapchat filters and how they affected -

Jonny 24:34 Yeah.

Yusef 24:34 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 24:34 Did you read it?

Jonny 24:35 No.

Chris Williamson 24:36 (laughs)

Yusef 24:37 I did.

Chris Williamson 24:38 Did you, man? Did you enjoy it?

Yusef 24:40 Yeah. Yeah.

Chris Williamson 24:40 Did you?

Yusef 24:40 Yeah. So, that's, I suppose that's as close to machine learning algorithm as we're gonna get-

Chris Williamson 24:43 Yeah.

Yusef 24:43 ... which is the-

Chris Williamson 24:44 Can you explain it to me because I haven't read it?

Yusef 24:45 Snapchat adjusts your facial features based on, um, these archetypes of attractiveness, to like smoothen out the face, make the cheeks slightly redder, make the eyes slightly larger. Um, does it make this forehead a bit larger as well?

Chris Williamson 24:59 Mm-hmm. Right.

Yusef 25:00 Um, basically make you have more of a neotenous lea- which means like baby-like face.

Chris Williamson 25:04 Right. Okay.

Yusef 25:05 Um, so like, you know the- the filter that has like the floating hair?

Chris Williamson 25:08 Yeah, I know the one. I see. So that's- that's doing certain things that are-

Yusef 25:12 Makes the lips a bit bigger, a bit pinker.

Chris Williamson 25:13 Right. There's this Fisherian runaway selection, which is, uh, sexually attractive characteristics will become more exaggerated over time. So if-

Yusef 25:24 Oh, yeah. And it gets ridiculous over- (laughs)

Chris Williamson 25:26 It gets absolutely ... it becomes caricatured. So you go, okay, men like women with big boobs, or, uh, women like men with broad shoulders. Run that for a million years and you've got these triangular men-

Yusef 25:37 I see.

Chris Williamson 25:37 ... and these women with like scoliosis, hump backs.

Yusef 25:40 Back problems. That's it. Yeah,

Yusef 25:41 yeah, yeah.

Chris Williamson 25:42 So, um, yeah. So moving on, what's next in your framework?

Yusef 25:44 Christ.

Chris Williamson 25:45 Should we go ... I want to do, um, how do you form a good relationship? So we've hopefully managed to get people out of the mire that is seeing someone.

Yusef 25:54 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 25:54 They found someone that they think, "I could, I could see myself in a relationship with this person."

Yusef 25:58 Well, so- so I suppose picking that person and knowing whether they are a good choice. And I- I owe, um, Johnny a huge amount for ... there was a time a few years ago, a g- good few years ago.

Chris Williamson 26:10 I optimized your Tinder.

Jonny 26:11 (laughs)

Yusef 26:12 You, yeah, you did. (laughs)

Chris Williamson 26:14 Funnel.

Yusef 26:14 Time a good few years ago-

Jonny 26:15 Well, if anyone wants a funnel.

Yusef 26:16 ... when, um, I was, I was quite torn and Johnny just advised me to make a balanced scorecard, um, of a couple of people that I was considering pursuing for a relationship. And he was like, "Look, like rank them out of ... rank them across five attributes, mark it out of 10, and pick, uh, and, uh, give them each a rating on each of those attributes. Take the total and see which one has more points." And then that was it.

Chris Williamson 26:48 How do you feel, how do you feel that a lot of people who would think you just know, the you just know can't put, man, you feel it when it's right?

Yusef 26:55 So, well the-

Chris Williamson 26:55 How do you think they would react to your-

Yusef 26:57 There's, I think there's probably some overlap between that.

Chris Williamson 26:58 ... quantifiable metrics of-

Yusef 27:00 I- I think back then I'd overridden my, my f- my heart center, my feeling center so much-

Chris Williamson 27:05 I think that's a good point.

Yusef 27:05 ... that I was out of tune with that intuitive sense.

Chris Williamson 27:10 How do you feel, how do you feel now with regards to stuff like that?

Yusef 27:13 Much better. Much better. But that, that's from a lot of spiritual practice that I've done, I think, that's connected me now-

Chris Williamson 27:18 Mm-hmm. That's cool.

Yusef 27:19 ... inside. But that's for another, yeah.

Chris Williamson 27:21 Another time. Johnny, how about you?

Yusef 27:22 I think-

Chris Williamson 27:22 How do you find or choose a person that's right for you in a relationship?

Jonny 27:26 Um, so I didn't, I didn't plot it out like that.

Chris Williamson 27:30 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Jonny 27:30 But that approach.

Yusef 27:31 Excel.

Chris Williamson 27:32 Really?

Jonny 27:32 No, Excel.

Chris Williamson 27:33 (laughs) Excel.

Jonny 27:34 Yeah. So, but, but with that, like in response to that thing, that- that point of like, oh, you shouldn't approach it like that. Like that's like saying, like, you know, someone's saying, "Oh, I'm just ... I know I'm saving money." Or, "I know I'm losing weight."

Yusef 27:44 Mm-hmm.

Jonny 27:44 Or, you know, "I know I'm not breaking the speed limit."

Chris Williamson 27:46 Mm-hmm.

Jonny 27:46 Like-

Yusef 27:47 You might be.

Jonny 27:47 You might be, but you might also not be. And also like if you know, if you know that you feel more strongly about that person, but you're struggling to make a decision between one of three relationships or whatever that you want to get into-

Chris Williamson 27:57 Mm-hmm.

Jonny 27:58 ... like sometimes sitting and actually thinking about it

Jonny 28:01 can-

Chris Williamson 28:01 Do you not think a lot of, a lot of relationships or a lot of what makes relationships special and attractive are due to the intangibles?

Jonny 28:08 So these are intangibles.

Chris Williamson 28:10 How do you tangibize them?

Jonny 28:11 So like-

Yusef 28:12 (laughs)

Jonny 28:12 Well, by using the framework. (laughs) Like-

Yusef 28:15 We all so-

Jonny 28:17 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 28:18 The fact that any of us have had sex is-

Jonny 28:20 Is impressive.

Chris Williamson 28:21 ... a fucking miracle.

Jonny 28:22 We're doing well.

Chris Williamson 28:22 Yeah.

Jonny 28:22 Yeah, we're doing well. So I ... the stuff that I think is more important, so stuff I've written down here.

Yusef 28:26 I- I haven't yet.

Jonny 28:27 (laughs)

Yusef 28:27 When, when will it be my turn?

Jonny 28:29 Video can ... Dean can cut that out.

Chris Williamson 28:30 (laughs)

Jonny 28:30 Video can cut that ... I know you call your video.

Chris Williamson 28:32 Video Dean.

Jonny 28:33 Um, so ... (laughs)

Chris Williamson 28:35 It'd be good if Dean didn't exist and it was just a- a two dimensional image of him, like a GIF.

Jonny 28:40 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 28:42 (laughs)

Yusef 28:43 (laughs)

Jonny 28:43 I think we should make a, like a- a video man Dean represent like a little character.

Chris Williamson 28:49 Once we hit $50 of ad revenue on YouTube.

Yusef 28:53 $50?

Chris Williamson 28:54 Strong time.

Jonny 28:54 I'm gonna spend it on-

Chris Williamson 28:55 Spend it on video Dean.

Jonny 28:55 I'm gonna spend it on animating Dean.

Yusef 28:57 Fine.

Chris Williamson 28:59 (laughs)

Jonny 28:59 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 28:59 We haven't even asked Dean's consent about this. It's-

Yusef 29:01 It doesn't matter. Doesn't matter. You didn't need to.

Chris Williamson 29:03 Right. Let's move on.

Jonny 29:04 Um, so things that I find are important are, so defining your interests and values, but not in like, "Oh, I think you should be honest and, you know ..." Because I think that's bollocks personally. So things like what do you like doing on a Friday evening? Um ...

Yusef 29:20 And what's your daily life going to look like-

Jonny 29:22 Yeah.

Yusef 29:22 ... in that relationship?

Jonny 29:23 How do you feel about certain personality traits? How, like, how do you feel about like ... um, so something that bothers me is when people back out at the last minute, for example. Like having common interests and common feelings and things like that.

Yusef 29:35 That's a really good point actually, 'cause sometimes what you ... like you might have someone who's like, "Oh, I want a guy with a six-pack." And they have no interest in training. They're- they're out of shape. And then if they find someone and they actually find that their interests aren't aligned and what they would do on a week to week basis is completely different-

Jonny 29:50 Mm-hmm.

Yusef 29:50 ... or then they feel like they've had to be brought into the gym and it's a place that they don't like or whatever.

Jonny 29:54 But even that, so- so I've- I've actually found being in a relationship with someone who likes the gym not as good.

Yusef 30:01 Mm-hmm.

Jonny 30:01 Personally.

Yusef 30:02 'Cause that ... 'cause then you then have to ... the gym beforehand, before the relationship was your time.

Jonny 30:08 Yeah.

Yusef 30:09 And suddenly it becomes not your time.

Jonny 30:10 And I like, I think there are definitely benefits to having that, but I like the gym to be, I go, and people criticize me for this, but I go headphones in, like it's my time to- to just do that.

Chris Williamson 30:20 Typical power lifter.

Jonny 30:21 And, yeah, typical power lifter. And it always has been.

Yusef 30:23 Well, I mean, I commonly get the, "I wanted to speak to Johnny but I saw him in the gym and I was scared."

Jonny 30:27 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 30:27 Mm-hmm.

Jonny 30:28 Got stuff to do.

Chris Williamson 30:29 Resting bitch face.

Jonny 30:30 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 30:30 I've got this rest, I've got this rest period to do ... Show me-

Yusef 30:33 Rest period face.

Jonny 30:33 Show me one person who's doing a heavy deadlift session, who wants to sit and talk between sets.

Chris Williamson 30:39 You.

Jonny 30:40 I don't work well.

Yusef 30:42 Only if it's through your AirPods while they're lifting.

Jonny 30:44 Ideally, and or- only about something very important.

Chris Williamson 30:46 So, do you think that having common interests with your partner is important? Because Darren and his wife is a good example.

Yusef 30:54 Mm-hmm.

Jonny 30:55 Have got, they overlap in some areas, but Colleen does like wreath making-

Yusef 31:02 Mm-hmm.

Jonny 31:02 ... and stu- like, loads of things that don't overlap.

Yusef 31:05 Mm-hmm.

Jonny 31:06 So, and you're saying that having interests that overlap is good, but that going to the gym together and having-

Yusef 31:13 So, what I was-

Jonny 31:13 ... fitness ones isn't.

Yusef 31:13 ... what I was trying to say, so something I said at the, for, um, relationships versus single, which is that, um, the pros of being single are only pros if you're in the wrong relationship, apart from obviously sleeping with lots of people. (laughs) It, but I suppose it still depends on the relationship.

Chris Williamson 31:27 Why did you gesture at me when you did that? (laughs)

Jonny 31:29 I didn't, I gestured in general.

Chris Williamson 31:31 (laughs)

Yusef 31:32 (laughs)

Jonny 31:32 Um ... (laughs) You know. Um, but stuff like-

Chris Williamson 31:35 Not having sex with lots of people.

Jonny 31:37 I was gonna say. (laughs)

Yusef 31:38 (laughs)

Jonny 31:38 Holiday destinations, interior design, restaurants, like-

Yusef 31:44 Yeah.

Jonny 31:44 ... the type of music you might put on in the car, um, where you might go and get some food on a weekend. Stuff like that I think is more important than-

Chris Williamson 31:52 To, to a lot of people, sorry for interrupting, to a lot of people that would seem like real low level, quite surface stuff.

Jonny 32:03 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 32:03 Especially 'cause you, at the very beginning of this framework you said, "Doesn't need to be about, like, loyalty."

Jonny 32:09 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 32:10 And, you know, "I just love-"

Jonny 32:11 Also, I think loyalty's important, but not as a sta- but I see what you mean.

Yusef 32:15 (clears throat)

Jonny 32:16 I, I think that, just because I think-

Chris Williamson 32:17 The ephemeral and nebulous terms

Chris Williamson 32:19 of-

Jonny 32:19 Yeah, yeah.

Chris Williamson 32:20 ... l- what do you look for on, like, so I got asked this question loads on Love Island, right?

Jonny 32:23 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 32:23 And they said, "What do you look for?" And what they want is s- like, blond hair, blue eyes, or brunette, petite, sporty, goes to the gym.

Jonny 32:31 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 32:31 Um, loyal.

Jonny 32:33 But actually-

Yusef 32:34 Was your answer a bunch of quite existential stuff (laughs) that they want?

Chris Williamson 32:36 No, no, no. No, just start again.

Jonny 32:37 And do you know, I found it really, I found it really difficult.

Chris Williamson 32:39 Mm-hmm.

Jonny 32:39 Because if you don't have, when someone asks you that question, "What's your type?"

Yusef 32:42 Mm-hmm.

Jonny 32:43 And-

Chris Williamson 32:43 How do you, how do you answer that question?

Jonny 32:44 If you don't have a single, and like, who says-

Chris Williamson 32:47 It's a mistake.

Jonny 32:47 ... I go for, I, I go for only blondes. Mm-hmm. Like who is enough of a retard-

Chris Williamson 32:53 (laughs)

Jonny 32:53 ... to think that that's an appropriate answer?

Yusef 32:55 Well, one, it's inap- it's a very inappropriate answer. Two, it's stupid on, on that account, but also, like, it's just you've suddenly restricted arbitrarily the pool of people that you could potentially-

Jonny 33:08 Mm-hmm.

Yusef 33:09 ... have met. And then you might meet someone who doesn't fit into your completely arbitrary defined type in your head that would've actually been a really good match for you.

Jonny 33:18 Mm-hmm.

Yusef 33:18 And as a result you've-

Chris Williamson 33:19 You've written them off for ...

Yusef 33:21 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 33:21 Mm, yeah. Going for values is much better. So anyway, moving forward, in a relationship, um, how do you decide when you need, when it's, when it's time, and how do you ask someone?

Yusef 33:32 To go from seeing to ...

Jonny 33:33 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 33:34 Mm-hmm.

Jonny 33:34 So, I don't think there's an elegant way to do that.

Yusef 33:36 (laughs)

Jonny 33:36 I think it's just-

Yusef 33:37 Especially our age.

Jonny 33:38 ... would you like to be my boyfriend, I guess.

Yusef 33:39 'Cause like that, that question was acceptable when you're like 14.

Jonny 33:42 Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Yusef 33:43 And then now you feel like such a little baby.

Chris Williamson 33:44 Do you know what it comes back to? I think obviously throughout all of a relationship, especially towards the end, at like towards the end once you're in a relationship it's super important, but this is just identifying how important communication is.

Jonny 33:56 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 33:56 Like transparent communication.

Jonny 33:58 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 33:59 Jordan Peterson on a recent podcast that I watched talks about him and his wife,

Chris Williamson 34:03 and he's adamant, I think they've been together maybe 35 years. He's known her since she was eight.

Yusef 34:08 (laughs)

Jonny 34:09 Like, he's literally lived-

Chris Williamson 34:10 Stop it.

Jonny 34:10 ... on the same street as each other in, uh, I think it's Alberta where he's from. And he said that she's never lied to him, ever. She, he believes that Tammy, his wife, has never ever once lied to him. You've got to say, as far as he knows they don't know.

Yusef 34:25 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 34:25 Well, I gotta say that.

Jonny 34:26 But yeah. (laughs)

Chris Williamson 34:26 Jordan, there's gonna be a caveat in here mate.

Jonny 34:28 Come on mate, Jordan's like-

Chris Williamson 34:29 It's only, it's only what you know.

Jonny 34:31 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 34:31 Um, but yeah, and he believes that she's never ever lied to him. And you're like, "Fuck."

Jonny 34:35 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 34:36 That is the basis of a fucking good relationship right there.

Jonny 34:39 Mm-hmm. Um-

Yusef 34:40 Depends how much of a pessimist you are. He could be like, "My wife is such a good liar that I've never caught her lying once."

Jonny 34:45 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 34:45 (laughs)

Jonny 34:45 But I mean if, if that is true, and he chooses to believe in an alternate reality and he's happy, then-

Yusef 34:50 True, true.

Chris Williamson 34:51 Okay, so-

Jonny 34:52 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 34:52 ... to a- to ask someone, do you just, why don't you just request it on Facebook, not speak to them?

Jonny 34:57 Yeah. Just write on their wall, girlfriend question mark.

Yusef 35:00 (laughs)

Jonny 35:02 You're either gonna get a yes or a no, aren't you? That might be the reason for the no though, that's the trouble.

Yusef 35:06 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 35:08 (laughs)

Jonny 35:08 I think this is something that, we went to see Eric Helms in a fitness seminar, and he in, in passing in the fitness seminar gave you the best relationship advice I've ever had.

Yusef 35:17 Very unromantic, but it was really good advice.

Jonny 35:19 Well, just, so I think a lot of people, and I s- had this thought up until that point was that like, you will have this relationship where you're like, "I am in love with this person. This is, I need to get married to this person. This is the one." And all those sorts of like romantic beliefs that, you know, like Cinderella and all these things like lead us to believe. And he uses this example, he was on an army base where there was over 1000 people, and he knew rationally that there'd maybe be 50 people that he could've formed a relationship with. His wife happened to be one of those 50 people, and then that sort of fits, like he finds her attractive, gets on with her, et cetera. And then past that it just has to be two adults understanding that relationships come with a whole host of shit stuff and problems, and you just have to agree to solve them-

Yusef 36:02 'Cause I remember he-

Jonny 36:02 ... in, in an adult way.

Yusef 36:03 ... he was like, "Oh, I'm getting married soon." And someone was like, "Oh, is she the one?" He was like, "Well, I, I, I love her very much but, uh-"

Jonny 36:09 (laughs)

Yusef 36:09 "... I don't really think there is such thing as the one. I'm, I mean in, in-"

Jonny 36:12 She's okay.

Yusef 36:13 "... in, in the world right now there's probably between 1000 and 2000 people that, that would qualify her as, as the one depending you-

Jonny 36:17 (laughs)

Yusef 36:18 ... on your, on your geographical, uh, overlap.

Jonny 36:19 (laughs)

Yusef 36:19 But, you know, she, she's definitely one of those 1000 to 2000 people."

Jonny 36:23 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 36:23 So, do you, do you believe-

Jonny 36:25 Get him in.

Chris Williamson 36:26 (laughs)

Jonny 36:26 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 36:26 You're like, "Hmm, yeah. Nice one."

Jonny 36:28 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 36:28 Do you agree that the best that you can hope for is someone who's good enough?

Jonny 36:33 So that's a, that's a difficult question.

Yusef 36:36 Good enough is determined by your input as well.

Jonny 36:38 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 36:38 Mm-hmm.

Yusef 36:38 Like, so-

Chris Williamson 36:39 So, is the best that you can hope for good enough? Because there-

Yusef 36:42 If you mean anything that you-

Chris Williamson 36:42 What is the likelihood that you find the most perf- perfect person for you on the planet?

Jonny 36:46 So, I-

Yusef 36:46 There's two, there's two numbers, isn't there? So you-

Jonny 36:48 I don't have to meet to make lots of noise, I'm really sorry.

Yusef 36:50 ... ........................ listen so-

Jonny 36:50 (singing) Sorry, sorry.

Chris Williamson 36:50 Listen to the size of Matt's ass. You're less than 100. Are you less than 100 kilos yet?

Jonny 36:55 Not, not quite. Getting closer.

Chris Williamson 36:56 Ah, sad face.

Yusef 36:57 ... so-

Jonny 36:58 Hurdling towards it though. Yeah.

Yusef 36:59 You could meet someone who on their side they are perfect and they're putting in loads of effort, but if you don't meet them at that, you will end up with a subpar relationship. And if you-

Jonny 37:09 But that's fine, but that, that-

Yusef 37:10 ... it's like a multiplier between both

Chris Williamson 37:11 That, that means if they were different, if they were different and were able to, um, account for whatever failings or shortcomings or forthcomings it is that you have, that would be fixed. The same way that-

Yusef 37:22 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 37:22 ... two jigsaw pieces put together can make a whole.

Yusef 37:24 N- so, so it's more like that, let's say, that you, you both are a multiplier and you've both got up to 10 points, so if you both put in 100% effort and you're both really well compatible, you can get a total of 100. If the person is perfect and they put in the effort-

Chris Williamson 37:39 (laughs)

Yusef 37:39 ... so they're, they've used up their five points of innate character and the other five points of their effort, so they're at 10, and you only put in a three-

Jonny 37:46 (laughs)

Yusef 37:47 ... then you're missing out on-

Chris Williamson 37:49 Right. But that person, that still doesn't affect what that person is. My question was, do you think-

Jonny 37:53 So-

Chris Williamson 37:53 ... that the best that you can hope for is someone who's good enough?

Jonny 37:55 So I think there has to be a mi-

Yusef 37:58 But if that answers that question.

Jonny 37:59 ... mini- mini- m- (laughs) mini. I think what Chris is saying is like you're saying there is quality and there is a magnifier.

Yusef 38:05 Which is effort and person.

Jonny 38:07 Yeah.

Yusef 38:07 And you put them together and they get 10 points.

Jonny 38:08 But like, but you, I mean, you, you put a, I suppose you put a cap on it so it can only go up to 10. But I think Chris is saying like someone could be a seven or a three.

Yusef 38:15 Mm-hmm.

Jonny 38:16 Someone could be a three with lots of effort or a seven with less effort.

Chris Williamson 38:18 But you could, someone could be a 10 and you could think this is a 10, "Oh, actually I've just met someone who's a 12."

Yusef 38:23 Uh, so, so the, this is the re- this is why you need to have lots of, or why you were saying you need to have lots of short experiences when you're young so that you get it.

Jonny 38:30 It's also the reason for balanced scorecard because, so-

Chris Williamson 38:33 And-

Jonny 38:33 So, okay, so here, here's the answer to your question. So, so let's say you appraise people over three things, like their personality, like a certain aspect of their personality, their looks, and their job, for example, and you want those three things to be maxed out as high as possible. You're with someone who's eight across all three things. You meet someone who's 10 and think that person must be better.

Chris Williamson 38:55 Mm-hmm.

Jonny 38:56 More than likely that person will have at least one downside, but-

Yusef 39:00 But you don't know.

Jonny 39:00 ... principally they will have a downside which is that that person is inherently in higher demand from everybody that they meet, which will lead to a, a, a, an inherent downside. So the more, like, socially valuable someone is-

Yusef 39:12 (gasps)

Jonny 39:13 ... the more-

Yusef 39:13 It's so complex, isn't it?

Jonny 39:14 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 39:14 That's only if you-

Yusef 39:14 'Cause also someone might appear like a 10 from a distance, and then you get into a relationship with them and you're like, "Oh, actually."

Chris Williamson 39:19 But that's, you can have the converse as well. You can have-

Jonny 39:22 You can.

Yusef 39:22 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 39:22 And another thing to consider is-

Yusef 39:24 Diamond in the rough.

Chris Williamson 39:24 ... and, and another thing to consider as well is that when you've got someone who potentially is heavily sought after-

Jonny 39:29 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 39:30 ... let's say that it, it's someone that you'd think would be intimidating or maybe up themselves and you actually find out that they're very hungry for a real connection because they keep having these men who-

Jonny 39:43 What, so shallow? Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

Chris Williamson 39:45 ... you think that they have shallow connection and so on and so forth. I, I think that there's probably too many variables to even define it, but I, I think that the Eric Helms thing is quite nice, that it's, there's probably out there right now, even for the people that are the most in love that they can imagine-

Jonny 40:03 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 40:03 ... if they weren't in love with that person and another person had come along, if that person had never existed, they weren't in that situation, another person came, that they could be equally happy with that person.

Jonny 40:12 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 40:12 And the fact that you're separated by not only, um, space, geographically, but also time. Like Alain de Botton says, we are often, uh, it is likely that we're not, we're never going to meet the pe- people who are best created to understand us. Maybe we were born too soon or too late or maybe we were in the wrong part of the world.

Yusef 40:32 Mm-hmm.

Jonny 40:32 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 40:33 And you're like, it could be someone in 100 years time that would be absolutely perfect for you.

Jonny 40:38 Yeah.

Yusef 40:38 Might even be in the same city, but, like, how likely is it that you're gonna meet every single person?

Jonny 40:43 Well, and there you go. So why is it, why is it that people continue to get into relationships with people that live on the street? Jordan Peterson's in a relationship with someone that did that. Yeah.

Chris Williamson 40:50 Is the location a refining characteristic which makes someone more appropriate for a relationship, or is it just convenience?

Yusef 40:58 It's both. Like the, the data shows people... uh, well, I suppose it's s- skewed by that exactly, but people tend to go for someone who is of a similar, from a similar location, uh, religious views, political views, socioeconomic status, income level. Like all of those things

Yusef 41:15 seem to match with p- and, and they tend to go with that.

Chris Williamson 41:16 Is that because your values are derived from those and it means-

Yusef 41:20 Probably, yeah, exactly.

Chris Williamson 41:21 ... that you're more likely to have more in common in terms of the way that you view the world?

Yusef 41:24 I, I think that's very likely, isn't it? But also that they are probably the social circles that you are more likely to meet someone

Jonny 41:29 So there's an availability bias here as well.

Yusef 41:31 Yeah, 'cause you're not going to go and find someone in Bangladesh and marry them unless you happen to be there anyway. In which case, like-

Chris Williamson 41:37 Yeah.

Jonny 41:37 So-

Chris Williamson 41:37 Is there a case for you if you get to 30 years old, like me, just spending two years traveling the globe sampling?

Yusef 41:43 I think a lot of people... yeah, I think that's probably a really good idea.

Chris Williamson 41:46 Right, mind them up.

Yusef 41:47 (laughs)

Jonny 41:47 (laughs)

Yusef 41:48 Um, would you be annoyed-

Jonny 41:49 (laughs)

Yusef 41:49 You, so you, you know, you were, you were saying like if someone is a very desirable person and you're-

Jonny 41:55 Mm-hmm.

Yusef 41:55 ... with them, that immediately brings down, or that immediately throws a spanner in because other people are fawning over them. Would that annoy you if you were with someone who men were constantly trying to pick them up?

Jonny 42:05 So I think it depends on your level of self-confidence, but als- 'cause at that c- it can be a point of real issue. So I've, I've seen some relationships fall apart because a girl was in a photo with a guy on a night out, the guy's very insecure-

Chris Williamson 42:18 (sighs)

Jonny 42:18 ... and it, it just becomes-

Chris Williamson 42:20 That's the guy's problem, not someone else.

Jonny 42:21 It, it, completely the guy's problem, but, but the guy would, as a result, probably be happier with someone who got less attention.

Chris Williamson 42:27 Mm-hmm.

Jonny 42:28 Which is ridiculous.

Chris Williamson 42:29 But that's you talking about, again, that's compatibility, right?

Jonny 42:31 If someone who's... it is, and it's someone who should be working on themselves before getting into a relationship.

Chris Williamson 42:35 So you need to know, you need to know yourself and you need to know what level of, um, notoriety you're prepared to have your-

Jonny 42:40 Of course, yeah.

Chris Williamson 42:41 ... your partner at.

Jonny 42:42 The, the trouble is with all of this, so if we assume there's a h- let's say in Newcastle, for any one person there's 500 people.

Chris Williamson 42:47 Mm-hmm.

Jonny 42:48 So that like, and then for each one of those people, there's 500 people.

Chris Williamson 42:51 Mm-hmm.

Jonny 42:52 And we're in a market that is getting smaller and smaller over time because all of those 500 people are trying to find one of their 500 people.

Chris Williamson 42:59 Mm-hmm.

Jonny 43:00 If you say-... I require 8-8-8, and actually all that's remaining of the 500 is a 100 and one of them is 7-7-8, and you go, "Well, I'm going to wait for a 9-9-8," and that person never arrives, then you may only be left with 6-6-6. It sounds-

Chris Williamson 43:16 (laughs)

Jonny 43:16 ... an awful lot like-

Yusef 43:17 Because of the market closing up as well.

Jonny 43:18 Yeah. Yeah.

Chris Williamson 43:19 It is, yeah. But then every so often, trades get reopened.

Jonny 43:22 Well, pre- so, so then, but then you-

Yusef 43:24 But then you have to be ready with, with, with, the capital available and the leverage to-

Chris Williamson 43:28 But the thing is, what, what the best way to do it is to put a buy order in.

Jonny 43:31 So that is the best way to do it.

Yusef 43:32 Can you put in a buy order though?

Jonny 43:33 If, if only you could.

Yusef 43:35 Mm-hmm.

Jonny 43:35 Here's the, here's the issue.

Yusef 43:36 Yeah. (laughs)

Chris Williamson 43:36 So moving forward from using market trading-

Jonny 43:39 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 43:40 ... to, uh, work out ... We're in, we're in a relationship. You've managed to get yourself into a relationship with someone that you think is not a complete asshole. Um, I think that this particular area, and I am not ... unfortunately, we're now almost outside of my domain of competence.

Jonny 43:53 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 43:53 I'm aware that that's the second-

Jonny 43:55 But you're go-

Chris Williamson 43:55 ... that we step into a relationship outside of my domain.

Jonny 43:58 (laughs) Yeah, fine.

Chris Williamson 43:58 I've been in lots of long-term relationships, just very unsuccessful ones. Um, so I think you-

Yusef 44:05 You might even be the best person to answer that then. Like, the, you know, you ask the-

Chris Williamson 44:08 Of course.

Yusef 44:08 ... the guy who's been divorced 15 times for marriage advice and people are like, "Oh, well, that's just stupid." But actually-

Chris Williamson 44:13 Probably a good idea.

Yusef 44:13 ... he's seen the most mistakes.

Jonny 44:15 Well, that's like saying would you rather ask a successful or a failed entrepreneur for business advice?

Yusef 44:19 'Cause it's the survivorship bias be- versus-

Jonny 44:22 Well, no, 'cause the, the, the successful entrepreneur has likely still failed.

Yusef 44:26 I see, yeah.

Jonny 44:26 It's just that one has only failed and one has failed and succeeded.

Yusef 44:29 So, so what you want is the guy who's been divorced 15 times, but is now-

Jonny 44:31 But now is happily married.

Chris Williamson 44:32 Happily married, yeah.

Yusef 44:32 ... fairly last 10 years.

Jonny 44:33 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 44:34 Cool, yeah. So,

Chris Williamson 44:35 um, I think one of the most important periods in a relationship is, like, the first four to six weeks, and I'm aware that the precursor to this has already been set up by the time that you've spent before, like the seeing them.

Jonny 44:48 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 44:48 So this needs to really be from as soon as you start to spend time with someone, and the framework to apply to this is kind of the same as when you're in court and there's already been a case which has laid out how this should go forward.

Jonny 45:06 Okay.

Chris Williamson 45:06 If you set a precedent for X situation to occur, that is what this other person will expect as you move forward.

Jonny 45:18 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 45:18 And then changing it is going to result in some sort of turmoil.

Yusef 45:22 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 45:23 So the way that you should ... Uh, I think a good way to approach the beginning of a relationship is to set up the first few weeks as perfectly as possible, to have everything exactly

Chris Williamson 45:35 as you would like, and to set the bar incredibly high. So everything's clean, date night's done on time, you greet them as they come in the door, you don't miss out on X, Y, and Z, you treat them i- hold them to as high standards as you want them to be held to, you set hard lines in the sand, going back to relationships 101, very, very hard lines in the sand, this is acceptable behavior, this is unacceptable behavior. Because as soon as you concede behavior which you deem to be unacceptable, you can no longer say it's unacceptable in the future.

Yusef 46:03 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 46:04 "Oh, well, you, you already said it was fine. What do you mean?"

Jonny 46:06 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 46:06 "I've been going out with John, I've been going for coffee with John for ages. You never had a problem with it before."

Jonny 46:11 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 46:11 It's like the first time that something happens which makes you feel upset, tell them, and conversely, the first time that something happens that makes you feel nice, makes you feel good, tell them as well. So another Jordan Peterson one here, the same way as training a dog. Like, it's exactly-

Jonny 46:25 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 46:25 ... what you're doing here. You need to not only punish-

Yusef 46:29 We're not that much more advanced than dogs really, so we need to-

Jonny 46:31 Not dogs. You need to, you need to punish stuff that you deem to be

Jonny 46:35 wrong, and you need to reward stuff that you deem to be good.

Yusef 46:39 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 46:39 And that will guide your partner towards being the right person for you, and I think this is where it, the whole conversation about, um, being with someone, uh, finding the right person for you becomes even more twisted-

Jonny 46:52 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 46:52 ... because you can create the person that's perfect for you.

Yusef 46:56 I've seen that so much where someone is in a relationship with someone and you can clearly see that they're only seeing the, a projection of what they want that person to be-

Jonny 47:06 Mm-hmm.

Yusef 47:06 ... and they're not really seeing that person.

Jonny 47:08 Do you not think-

Chris Williamson 47:08 And fighting when someone doesn't meet the criteria-

Jonny 47:10 Let's say-

Yusef 47:11 Doesn't fit into the, the idea of them they have in their head.

Jonny 47:13 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 47:13 I think a, a good, um, characteristic to look for in any potential future partner is someone who's open to change and also keen on personal development. If you get those two things, y- it's likely that you're going to be able to grow with that person, that-

Jonny 47:31 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 47:31 ... like as you want them to improve, they want you to

Chris Williamson 47:35 improve. You can hold them to a higher standard but they don't take it as a, a, an insult or a slight against them or some kind of worrisome reason that you're not going to care anymore. And I think setting the tone, setting the tone in that kind of a manner make, forms a really, really good foundation. It's like if you start off a marathon, uh, running at six-minute-mile pace or whatever it is and you continue it, then you're like, "Okay, well, that's my split. I'm going to stay at six minute." If you started at 10 minutes, like, what's the incentive to speed up or how-

Yusef 48:07 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 48:07 ... do you speed up? So-

Yusef 48:08 Very important about the desire for growth as well because then if you are with someone who is a waste man or waste woman and you're growing at this pace and they're staying the same, there's going to be resentment. You might even start to resent that person, but they, they'll-

Chris Williamson 48:24 Both ways as well. They'll probably resent you-

Yusef 48:25 Yeah, they'll, they'll resent you-

Chris Williamson 48:25 ... for making progress.

Yusef 48:27 And they're just being them, so it's not like you can blame them for not wanting to grow because they weren't-

Chris Williamson 48:34 Do you think that there's,

Chris Williamson 48:35 do you think that there's a, a typical difference between men and women with regards to how much they're prepared to grow in your experience in relationships? Like, you are obviously-

Yusef 48:44 I've, I've, I've seen it both ways. I've s- I've seen where, where the woman is, like, really getting her s- get- getting her stuff together and, like, really moving forward with her life. But the guy is, like, a sort of m- layabout, occasionally violent and so on, but because of that, because she still loves him, she puts up with it.

Chris Williamson 49:02 Mm-hmm.

Yusef 49:02 But then you can see them growing further apart, but ... And then the other ... Obviously, things like kids or whatever holds them together, or even the threat that, "If you leave then I'm going to do..."

Chris Williamson 49:12 Well, the f- the fact that-... as a society, we are even to have people fucking cohabit and not tear each other's eyes out on a daily basis is amazing, isn't it?

Jonny 49:22 Mm-hmm.

Yusef 49:22 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 49:23 Like, it's such a minefield. And the fact that we're held in place by social, uh, stigma and, uh, uh, a little bit of virtue.

Jonny 49:33 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 49:34 Like,

Chris Williamson 49:35 it's, it is really, really impressive.

Jonny 49:37 The, the thing that I find amazing is that people see their career as, like, something that requires a lot of work and a lot of time, but a marriage just happens. You know, like, "Oh, well, I signed that thing and I live with this person now."

Yusef 49:51 So, I think, I'm looking back at these notes and I think you took my phone one day during Relations 101-

Jonny 49:55 (laughs)

Yusef 49:55 ... and were like, "Right, you what? I need to write some notes here 'cause I've got so many thoughts."

Jonny 49:59 (laughs) .

Yusef 49:59 'Cause also you wrote, you put, y-

Jonny 50:02 Can I see them?

Yusef 50:02 Yeah, 'cause it-

Jonny 50:03 'Cause annoyingly I was looking for them this morning, I was like, "Where are they?"

Yusef 50:05 So you wrote, "If you bought one pair of shoes, you would pick carefully."

Jonny 50:09 (laughs)

Yusef 50:10 And that's, I think that's the part that you-

Jonny 50:11 Right. So, I, I remember what that means now.

Yusef 50:13 While you're looking through that, I've got an idea to-

Jonny 50:15 Burdens were a benefit.

Yusef 50:16 ... to float with you. Um-

Jonny 50:19 So they cancel ............................ (laughs)

Yusef 50:22 Oh, yeah, I'll have to mention them in a sec.

Jonny 50:23 (laughs)

Yusef 50:23 Um, so there's a, there's an idea that I, I heard from this guy. I think it's very reductive, I think it's very simplistic, but he claims, and I'm sure there is an equivalent for men, but he claimed that women,

Yusef 50:35 um, can be, fall, fall along three different continuums, continua.

Jonny 50:42 Someone's gonna get offended here, aren't they?

Yusef 50:44 Yeah, they, they will, but, like-

Jonny 50:45 It's fine.

Yusef 50:45 This, this, I'm, I'm relaying this guy's idea, like, base ..........................

Jonny 50:48 If we had something that would insult men just as much, I'd use it. We'd say ..........................

Yusef 50:51 I'm sure there, there probably is a, an equivalent model, 'cause-

Jonny 50:53 Go on.

Yusef 50:53 ... he'll have made it as an upsell. So-

Jonny 50:55 (laughs)

Yusef 50:56 ... three different, um, spectrum, spectra ...

Jonny 51:00 Spectri?

Yusef 51:02 S- s- it's a-

Jonny 51:02 Spectra.

Yusef 51:03 It's a neuter.

Jonny 51:03 Go on, go on.

Yusef 51:04 Neuter pl- there's a single, singular. So (laughs) , um, so you have their views towards men, relationships, and their life. So, for men they're either tester or investor. So, if they're a tester, then they have lots of men orbiting them at one time, that they're constantly keeping just kind of at arm's reach and just always testing them. Whereas an investor is a woman that decides on one man and, and puts all her eggs into that basket

Yusef 51:35 and dives in. And so they're usually on one side of that spectrum or another.

Jonny 51:40 Mm-hmm.

Yusef 51:41 The next one is attitude towards sex, which is either denier or justifier. And this is the same way that they would react to, "Hey, did you eat that chocolate in the fridge?" "No. No, I didn't." W- that's a denier. That's like sex is a naughty subject, and if I'm questioned about it, I'll just deny that it exists and that I have any urges or anything like that. And if they ... And they're less likely to cheat on you, but if they do, you are not gonna know about it. A justifier is, "Did you eat that bit of chocolate?" "Well, yeah, but it's just a bit of chocolate, like, what's the problem?" Someone who doesn't see sex as very important is more likely to have sex with you earlier in a relationship, but doesn't consider it to be anything significant or any kind of marker of how much they like you, um, and they are more likely to cheat on you and you're more likely to know about it. Then you have ... So you have justifier and denier.

Yusef 52:35 Then you have attitude towards life, realist and idealist. So, realist is, um, career focused, realizes that they're gonna, um, be juggling a lot of stuff and, um, doesn't have a kind of very romanticized view of, of their life and their career. Idealist is, "I want to be the princess of my house and I want to have a three bedroom house with a little car and a dog and a driveway and that..." And that's, uh, that's the, the idealist, kind of more traditionalistic view of their life. So you have tester/investor towards men, realist, uh, uh, justifier/denier towards sex, and then realist/idealist towards life and career.

Chris Williamson 53:15 I've heard you use that before. It's a really cool thing.

Jonny 53:17 Is that, is that Mark Manson?

Yusef 53:19 No. Similar guy.

Jonny 53:20 I remember you, I remember you talking about ............................

Yusef 53:21 I think there's a few of us ..........................

Jonny 53:25 Yeah.

Yusef 53:25 ... try to see where they're ... And the, I think the, the tendency is everyone's like, "Oh, well, I'm a denier, justifier, whatever." But, uh-

Jonny 53:30 Mm-hmm. It's what you do with that information.

Yusef 53:32 And-

Jonny 53:33 That's the challenge.

Yusef 53:33 ... is it accurate, or is it just-

Jonny 53:35 Mm-hmm.

Yusef 53:35 ... random dichotomies that someone's created-

Jonny 53:37 Mm-hmm.

Yusef 53:37 ... to sell stuff?

Chris Williamson 53:38 If it's not pertinent to how someone's gonna behave in a relationship, like, it could just be where their principles lie, but if they love you that much that they can compromise-

Jonny 53:46 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 53:46 ... all of those things to be whatever it is that you want ...

Yusef 53:49 Mm. But would, do you want someone compromising who they are?

Chris Williamson 53:52 Well, that's a good question.

Jonny 53:53 I think-

Yusef 53:53 Mm-hmm.

Jonny 53:54 ... that there are, there has to be compromise.

Yusef 53:58 It does.

Jonny 53:59 Even, even if it's just to the extent of, like ... 'Cause I, this is, again, a lot of arguments that I've observed happen in, in relationships, especially like at uni when everyone's a very sort of close environment, is just ego overriding. And, like, someone won't j- It's so easy to just go, "You know what? I'm sorry. My bad." And, like, let's just let go-

Chris Williamson 54:19 Well, it's not. It's not. It's not that easy at all.

Jonny 54:20 Well, easy relative to having a three-day argument.

Chris Williamson 54:23 But you think that. Why are so many people in three-day arguments clinging onto the ego?

Jonny 54:28 Was it ... Yeah. Okay. So, take, take this as a lesson. (laughs) Just let go of it.

Chris Williamson 54:34 Just say

Chris Williamson 54:35 sorry.

Jonny 54:35 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 54:35 I think that's a good ............................

Yusef 54:36 Or you're, or you're often .......................... like, a really silly, small thing.

Jonny 54:38 Yeah. And it, it-

Chris Williamson 54:38 I mean, moving on, moving on to that, like, I think breakups are the most painful because of pride.

Jonny 54:48 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 54:49 I would honestly go as far as to say that more than half of the pain in most relationships, but most breakups from relationships, are due to the pride-

Jonny 54:59 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 55:00 ... being hurt. Because pe- it just triggers so many feelings of worthlessness and self-loathing and, "It's what I knew, I knew I wasn't good for this person all along." Or all of that sort of stuff. I think that's the reason that it hurts. And that can be shown. There's been a couple of times where I've been sort of with a girl or whatever and then we'd split up-... I've, maybe not by my choosing or maybe we've kind of drifted apart, and then, uh, again, fucking no man's land of seeing someone, you don't really know what's going on.

Jonny 55:33 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 55:34 And you may have

Chris Williamson 55:35 a little bit of resentment-

Jonny 55:35 (coughs)

Chris Williamson 55:35 ... towards them. But then if they come back and you get to sleep with them one more time, gone, neutralized, absolutely, just immediately gone, because you're like-

Jonny 55:45 What, like the pain from the breakup?

Chris Williamson 55:47 Yeah. Because you're like, "Had her all along. Don't need to worry."

Jonny 55:51 Okay.

Chris Williamson 55:52 It's happened at least three times to me. Where I've been like, uh, uh, that breakup's stung a little bit more than I thought it would. I've got some residual resentment, a little bit of bitterness, a little bit of this, a little bit of that. Get to sleep with them again, like, "Pfft. What was I worrying about?"

Jonny 56:09 'Cause it, I suppose it damages your ...

Chris Williamson 56:11 Ego?

Jonny 56:12 Like, yeah. Like, "Am I desirable? Am I not desirable? They're saying I'm not." Like someone getting rid of something.

Chris Williamson 56:18 What do you think-

Jonny 56:19 It's almost like, like everyone always says, like they, they want to be able to say, "Oh, it was mutual."

Chris Williamson 56:23 Mm-hmm.

Jonny 56:23 If they had a breakup, they never want to-

Chris Williamson 56:24 There's always one person who pushes it more than the other.

Jonny 56:26 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 56:27 Uh, so what do you think about this statement? "The power in a relationship lies with the person who cares the least."

Jonny 56:36 It's, it's probably true, but I think a successful relationship shouldn't have to rely on power struggles and-

Chris Williamson 56:42 Mm-hmm.

Jonny 56:44 ... um, and games of who cares and who doesn't care. Um, it shou- i- if, if it's a case of both people putting ... Like the person who suffers the most is definitely the one who cares the most. (smacks legs) But ...

Chris Williamson 56:57 Have you, can you see any of that, that power in a relationship lies with the person who cares least-

Jonny 57:01 Yeah. Well-

Chris Williamson 57:01 ... in, in previous relationships of yours?

Jonny 57:02 Well, it's, it's the same, like in, in any negotiation, you will have someone who cares the least and is most able to walk away, and they are going to be the one that has the bargaining power. But ... I, I, so I, I've, I've definitely experienced that. I think it, when it happens, it's when there isn't a shared vision for where it's going. I think, like, if both ... So back to the Eric Thomas advice of like, it's just problem-solving. Like, it's just professional problem-solving and an issue, like, that there's just ... You're two people who live together and share a lot of your life together. And shit's gonna happen that's

Jonny 57:35 like, as minor as, "I was watching that. What are you doing?" To like, "Why did you make me feel this way? I really ..." You know, all these sorts of things. And it's managing someone else's feelings and emotions and helping them understand the, how you feel and how, what your emotions are. And if you have a share- shared view of where things are going-

Chris Williamson 57:55 Mm-hmm.

Jonny 57:55 And that that's an-

Chris Williamson 57:56 Mm-hmm.

Jonny 57:56 ... a, a future that you both want to be the case. And you won't argue about the small stuff, because it's all-

Chris Williamson 58:00 Because it's like, "Well-"

Jonny 58:01 ... aligned. "... we're moving in this direction." So I've written in there, um ... Or here. No, and in there. That a, that a relationship is like a business.

Chris Williamson 58:08 Mm-hmm.

Jonny 58:09 And in the same way that like Yusef and I, we're not in a rela- well, we are, I suppose we are in a relationship in a way. Um, but I, I, I won't let him ha- have sex with me ever.

Chris Williamson 58:19 (laughs)

Jonny 58:19 Um-

Chris Williamson 58:19 Much to my disappointment.

Jonny 58:21 (laughs) He keeps trying. But the point is, is that like, the little stuff is irrelevant because there's a shared view of where the, we'd like the business to go. So-

Chris Williamson 58:27 Communication.

Jonny 58:28 Yeah. And so, but I think if, if someone, let's say that Yusef didn't give a shit and I really cared-

Chris Williamson 58:36 Mm-hmm.

Jonny 58:36 ... then the arguments are just gonna-

Chris Williamson 58:38 Mm-hmm.

Jonny 58:38 ... erupt. Yeah.

Chris Williamson 58:40 So we've kind of jumped ahead to the, um, breakup thing, 'cause I think we can probably get away with a full episode on breakups. So I want to shelve that for now. How do you-

Jonny 58:48 Talk about cheating as well. Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 58:49 Yeah. How do you, um ... after the honeymoon period of a relationship drops off-

Jonny 58:55 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 58:56 ... where do you go from there?

Jonny 58:58 (clears throat)

Chris Williamson 58:58 Like, have you got a framework for how you keep-

Jonny 59:00 That's the million-dollar question, isn't it? I think that's like-

Chris Williamson 59:03 You've got a fairly successful long-term relationship.

Jonny 59:05 Yeah. And you use a fairly successful framework for it as well.

Chris Williamson 59:08 So we're asking you-

Jonny 59:08 Well-

Chris Williamson 59:09 For the love of God-

Jonny 59:10 (laughs) Give us a framework.

Chris Williamson 59:11 ... tell us how you've got a fucking girlfriend.

Jonny 59:12 I think, um (laughs)

Chris Williamson 59:16 (laughs)

Jonny 59:16 And so the answer is, unfortunately, deadlifts of 300 kilos and over.

Chris Williamson 59:22 (laughs)

Jonny 59:22 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 59:22 Very well.

Jonny 59:22 Everyone was like, "Ah." Ah, goddammit.

Chris Williamson 59:24 75% or greater leg to body volume.

Jonny 59:26 That's it. That is it.

Chris Williamson 59:28 Come on.

Jonny 59:29 So it- Why are you like so long?

Chris Williamson 59:31 I wish I knew.

Jonny 59:33 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 59:33 Yeah. I might just sell the answer. (laughs) Just a quid. A quid and I'll tell you. Come on.

Jonny 59:37 (laughs) ebook.

Chris Williamson 59:38 Um-

Jonny 59:38 Or do you get physical delivery? Quid plus postage.

Chris Williamson 59:40 (laughs)

Jonny 59:40 I'm just ringing, just to get you upset. Um, so I think ... Uh, personally, I feel the, um ... And I don't feel like I've created it. I feel like it's just happened. But the relationships (laughs) that I see that are just in utter turmoil all the time- Tatters. ... are ... Pardon? Tatters.

Chris Williamson 1:00:02 Tatters, yeah.

Jonny 1:00:03 Tatters, yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:00:03 Bits. Are when, like, one of the, one of the relationship, like the, the man or the woman just wants to stay in all the time or just wants to go out all the time-

Jonny 1:00:12 Or the man or the man. Or the man or the man, sorry. Or the woman-

Chris Williamson 1:00:14 Sorry. Or the woman. (laughs)

Jonny 1:00:16 ... or the woman. (laughs) Two people in a relationship-

Chris Williamson 1:00:17 Or the non-binary-

Jonny 1:00:19 Or the, uh-

Chris Williamson 1:00:19 Oh yeah, the, the person-

Jonny 1:00:20 Or them, them and them.

Chris Williamson 1:00:21 ... the otherkin.

Jonny 1:00:23 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 1:00:23 (laughs)

Jonny 1:00:24 So I think they, uh, one of them is forcing the other person to live their life with them, and the other person wants to see their friends or wants to do something else without them for a while, and that creates arguments and problems. And I think, to me, a, a successful long-term relationship is two people sharing their life in tandem.

Chris Williamson 1:00:44 Mm-hmm.

Jonny 1:00:44 And each of them have stuff that they do, like separate groups, separate groups of friends-

Chris Williamson 1:00:47 Interests and ... Yeah.

Jonny 1:00:49 Yeah, but it's, there's a lot of shared time, but doing something else isn't a deal-breaker. So I think that, that's the whole thing of like, I don't, uh, like you don't make me whole, I make me whole, and then we come together and- Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:01:02 Yeah.

Jonny 1:01:02 Will Smith is big on this. You should-

Chris Williamson 1:01:05 Oh, okay.

Jonny 1:01:05 ... listen to Will Smith's opinion on relationships.

Chris Williamson 1:01:07 Will, Will's, uh, The Fresh Prince of Bel-Air.

Jonny 1:01:09 Will Smith. (laughs) The Fresh Prince of Bel-Air is-

Chris Williamson 1:01:10 He's just started up a pretty successful YouTube channel, hasn't he?

Jonny 1:01:13 He is honestly-

Chris Williamson 1:01:14 Hasn't he?

Jonny 1:01:15 He has e- endless, endless wisdom. I bet he's a wise man.

Chris Williamson 1:01:16 VideoGuy-

Jonny 1:01:16 He is quite old now.

Chris Williamson 1:01:16 VideoGuyDean has a-

Jonny 1:01:18 VMD.

Chris Williamson 1:01:19 ... he has a stiffy over Will Smith's video content.

Jonny 1:01:23 You okay, Dean?

Chris Williamson 1:01:23 He's so-

Jonny 1:01:24 Sad.

Chris Williamson 1:01:24 ... so turgid he can see his face in the reflection.

Jonny 1:01:26 Mm-hmm. He has just had to leave, actually.

Chris Williamson 1:01:28 Yeah.... you know, to crack one out over Will Smith video content. (laughs)

Jonny 1:01:31 Yeah.

Yusef 1:01:31 Your doppelganger.

Chris Williamson 1:01:32 Yeah.

Yusef 1:01:32 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:01:33 Um, so you think that it's a combination of you retaining your own life and your own interests-

Jonny 1:01:39 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:01:39 ... which gives you that sense of independence and not make you feel too stifled.

Yusef 1:01:42 Such a big forearm.

Jonny 1:01:43 (laughs) Yeah.

Yusef 1:01:44 Look at that.

Jonny 1:01:44 Big vascular forearm.

Chris Williamson 1:01:45 And also having enough time together to maintain that level of contact and-

Jonny 1:01:52 Absolutely.

Chris Williamson 1:01:52 ... feel like you're progressing together.

Jonny 1:01:53 And stuff like, and it sounds stupid, but like, really listening to someone when someone's speaking, making eye contact when they walk in the room, like, ask, sitting and asking them how their day is without being on Facebook at the same time, um, like-

Yusef 1:02:08 What is the standard, like, w- woman come, like, the stereotype, woman comes in, "Hi darling, you all right?" And it's like, guy's playing Xbox, doesn't look at her-

Chris Williamson 1:02:17 Mm-hmm.

Yusef 1:02:17 ... just, like, either makes a grunting noise or just nothing.

Chris Williamson 1:02:19 But again, with, ag- ag- again, with that, if you set the tone from the very beginning of your relationship, and again, another Jordan Peterson example here, if you want, if you're as a man, you want to be greeted by your wife as you come through the door, tell her.

Jonny 1:02:32 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:02:32 "I want you to greet me at the door, I want you to kiss me on the cheek and say, 'How was your day?'" And then you can go back to whatever you're doing, but I want that to happen.

Jonny 1:02:38 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:02:38 Like, if that's a non-negotiable for you, then fine. It's, you're not asking someone to set themselves on fire.

Jonny 1:02:43 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:02:43 You're asking them to come to the door and say, "How was your day?" Like, abso- and if you, as a girl, if you don't want to have to wait for longer than two hours for a reply on a message, set that as a rule-

Jonny 1:02:53 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:02:53 ... in the sand. Like, frameworks are the way that businesses, the most complex organizations-

Yusef 1:03:00 Sorry, two, two hours, bloody hell. Um-

Jonny 1:03:02 (laughs)

Yusef 1:03:02 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 1:03:02 That's, that's absolutely inconceivable for you, isn't it? But, but-

Yusef 1:03:05 Yeah, I, like, if, if I manage 48 hours, I'm like, yes.

Chris Williamson 1:03:08 (laughs)

Yusef 1:03:08 I'm so responsive.

Jonny 1:03:10 (laughs)

Yusef 1:03:12 (laughs) So, well, there'll be people listening who are in a relationship now, have felt like they've, uh, made too many concessions from-

Chris Williamson 1:03:20 Mm-hmm.

Yusef 1:03:20 ... their values, and they're like, "Is this irrecoverable now? Is there anything they can do?"

Jonny 1:03:25 So, the, the answer is always, if you're gonna sell it at seven quid an hour, sell it at seven twenty.

Yusef 1:03:29 Sell it at seven ten, yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:03:30 Yeah.

Jonny 1:03:30 No, no, obviously not.

Chris Williamson 1:03:31 Don't do that.

Jonny 1:03:32 Totally.

Chris Williamson 1:03:32 I think, I think that a good-

Jonny 1:03:33 But seriously.

Chris Williamson 1:03:33 ... a good opportunity or a good chance to do that would be to have a reset. So, every year for ourselves, me particularly, I know you two aren't quite so big on New Year's resolutions, but I'm massive on them.

Yusef 1:03:44 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:03:44 Every year, I reset my own personal values. Me controlling me is a lot easier than me controlling me and the relationship. So, having a yearly review for myself and not having one for the relationship seems almost backwards.

Jonny 1:03:59 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:03:59 Like, if you're in a relationship where you feel like you have compromised too much and that things are starting to go astray from where you want it, want them to or you thought they would, or whatever it might be, ask the person, like, "Let, let's sit down and let's, let's talk about the things," everything. So we say this to the boys, perfect example, our managers get overworked when they're doing club promo. They've got a university degree to juggle with late nights and some long days that we make them work. And I have increasingly encouraged them to come to me as soon as something gets on their tits.

Jonny 1:04:30 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 1:04:31 Perfect example, not very long ago, one of the boys had a art dissertation thing in, and he just had one week where it got a little bit much for him. And he came to me straight away and he's like, "Man, like, I, I, I just wanted you to know, I just struggled with my work, with my workload last week." And immediately the pressure release valve just went (psshs) and I was able to shuffle a couple of things around, and that was fine. But if he'd left that and the situation had got worse over the space of eight weeks, he'd leave-

Jonny 1:04:56 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:04:57 ... because he'd be like, "I can't take this."

Jonny 1:04:58 And, and-

Chris Williamson 1:04:58 But one bad week-

Yusef 1:04:59 ... your workload would suffer as well.

Chris Williamson 1:05:00 100%.

Jonny 1:05:01 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:05:01 Everything would degrade. So, I think have a, every six months or every year, like, pick a time, but make it Valentine's Day, make it New Year, make it something.

Jonny 1:05:11 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:05:11 Every single year, have a sit down with your partner, "Okay, so what do we think went well this year? What would you change?" Like, and go into it openly. This person isn't saying to you, "I don't like who you are."

Jonny 1:05:22 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:05:22 They're saying that, "We could be better together and I would be happier if you, if you do this." It's not a comment on you as a person. And the fact, if you can do this completely transparently, and, uh, as long as you're not saying, like, "I, I hate the size of your penis. I wish you had smaller nipples." (laughs)

Jonny 1:05:36 That's valid feedback though.

Chris Williamson 1:05:37 It's valid feedback.

Jonny 1:05:38 It's true.

Chris Williamson 1:05:38 But it may, it may be difficult to swallow.

Jonny 1:05:39 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:05:40 Um-

Jonny 1:05:40 Go on.

Chris Williamson 1:05:41 ... the small penis is probably harder, actually, to swallow.

Yusef 1:05:42 Sh- what, what do you do about your, your, your large fried egg nipples? Like, you-

Chris Williamson 1:05:45 And your small penis?

Yusef 1:05:46 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:05:47 Uh, suffer.

Jonny 1:05:47 You...

Chris Williamson 1:05:48 ... inside and s-

Jonny 1:05:49 You make up for it in other areas?

Chris Williamson 1:05:50 I do.

Yusef 1:05:50 I see-

Jonny 1:05:50 Yeah, kiss them on the cheek as they come through the door.

Yusef 1:05:52 Fine.

Jonny 1:05:53 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:05:54 Um-

Jonny 1:05:55 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 1:05:55 (laughs)

Jonny 1:05:55 Burger nips.

Chris Williamson 1:05:56 I just think, yeah, tiny penis.

Jonny 1:05:58 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 1:05:58 I just think-

Yusef 1:05:59 That, that, that's a very good advice though, to, to say, that is a very good advice. (laughs)

Jonny 1:06:02 Yeah. "It's a very good advice." (laughs)

Chris Williamson 1:06:03 This is very solid advice. Thank you for being advice on that, Chris. (laughs)

Jonny 1:06:07 The- On the side.

Yusef 1:06:07 Yeah, maybe six-monthly reviews and maybe, well, definitely do it across the multiple dimensions of your relationship.

Jonny 1:06:16 There's a, there's a guy who spea- who've spoken about this, and it was on a podcast-

Yusef 1:06:19 It's not Garrett J. White?

Jonny 1:06:20 No, no, no, no.

Yusef 1:06:20 This isn't someone we're thinking of. (laughs)

Jonny 1:06:21 No, no, no, no.

Narrator 1:06:21 (laughs)

Jonny 1:06:21 You'll upset Chris. There's a guy who's like, "Every quarter, I ask my wife to, to score me."

Yusef 1:06:26 Oh, yeah. There is.

Jonny 1:06:27 Who is it?

Chris Williamson 1:06:27 (laughs)

Jonny 1:06:27 And it's like he has to have a total, and he can, like, be shit-

Yusef 1:06:31 Some- it's someone we both follow.

Jonny 1:06:32 ... be shit with kids for a bit, but if it was 'cause he was on loads of business trips-

Yusef 1:06:35 Oh, okay.

Jonny 1:06:35 ... and, and, you know, he's doing a lot for the family in that way, then it's okay for a bit, as long as he's not-

Yusef 1:06:39 Who, who is it?

Jonny 1:06:39 ... shit in two areas two months, t- two quarters in a row.

Chris Williamson 1:06:41 That's all right. That, that's cool.

Yusef 1:06:42 Who is that per- uh, no. Uh-

Chris Williamson 1:06:43 But anyway, I think, so-

Jonny 1:06:44 (laughs) But, like-

Chris Williamson 1:06:44 One thing to, to go back, to go back to what we're talking about generally, I, I'm gonna guess that there might be some people at home that are thinking this sounds like a very unromantic way-

Jonny 1:06:53 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:06:53 ... to operate a relationship.

Jonny 1:06:55 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:06:55 But as I've just identified there-

Yusef 1:06:57 But it's like, are you really a romantic? Like, when was the last time you, like, wooed your wife with a rose between your teeth and, like, spun her round and like-

Jonny 1:07:03 Without, without there being a, a goal or outcome-based decision behind it.

Chris Williamson 1:07:09 That's it.

Jonny 1:07:09 Right.

Chris Williamson 1:07:09 It's just inputs and outputs.

Jonny 1:07:10 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:07:10 I mean, that's all anything is.

Jonny 1:07:11 Like, th- th- the criticism of that's unromantic is, the people who say that, I guarantee, are not romantics.

Yusef 1:07:16 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:07:16 They're not realists.

Jonny 1:07:17 And they won't have successful relationships.

Chris Williamson 1:07:17 They're idealists.

Yusef 1:07:18 Mm-hmm. And they have what?

Jonny 1:07:19 It's, they won't have successful relationships, almo- almost certainly, for very long.

Yusef 1:07:24 The idea is-

Jonny 1:07:26 (laughs)

Yusef 1:07:26 ... think like an artist, work like an accountant.

Chris Williamson 1:07:29 (laughs)

Jonny 1:07:30 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 1:07:30 That's a nice way to put it. Have you just come up with that?

Yusef 1:07:32 No, it was someone saying that the great-... performers or whatever-

Chris Williamson 1:07:35 Right.

Yusef 1:07:36 ... things like artists and whatnot, accountants.

Chris Williamson 1:07:37 Mm-hmm. A good point about romanticism as well, like, for a very, very long time in human history, we didn't just have one partner-

Yusef 1:07:45 Mm.

Chris Williamson 1:07:46 ... and we didn't marry for love. We married because the person that lived in the farm next door lived in the farm next door, and by-

Yusef 1:07:52 It was convenient.

Chris Williamson 1:07:53 Uh, yeah, it was a marriage of convenience. It was a marriage for power. It was a, a tool of bureaucracy. It was a tool of uniting or, um, stopping wars, uh, uniting kingdoms together, stuff like that.

Yusef 1:08:04 Mm.

Chris Williamson 1:08:05 There was a particular-

Yusef 1:08:05 This is more Marcus territory now, isn't it? Where we start to say, like-

Chris Williamson 1:08:08 Hmm, I, I, I-

Yusef 1:08:09 ... marriage is only a social thing, and we're not wired for this.

Chris Williamson 1:08:11 I think r- I think, I think romance in its current form as was created in the Renaissance period can