Modern WisdomHow To Get Better With Books | Jim Mullane | Modern Wisdom Podcast 177
EVERY SPOKEN WORD
110 min read · 22,203 words- 0:00 – 0:28
Intro
- JMJim Mullane
Back to your question about how to build a reading habit, it's that you need to be very honest with yourself about what you're interested in. And starting from, you know, having an idea of what, what piques your interest. I think if you can choose topics and, and books and, and authors that are focused on those interests, that is the best way to build a reading habit because then it does not feel like a chore. It really just feels like a, a leisure activity.
- CWChris Williamson
(wind blowing)
- 0:28 – 3:45
Jim Mullane
- CWChris Williamson
Jim Mullane, how are you, my friend?
- JMJim Mullane
Pleasant. Doing well. Enjoying my, uh, lockdown in style here in my sweatpants and my sweatshirt. Doing well. Gotta be hon-
- CWChris Williamson
Enjoying that, enjoying that new mustache?
- JMJim Mullane
It's not new. Un- unfortunately, it's all I can grow.
- CWChris Williamson
That is, that's some serious 'stache going on there.
- JMJim Mullane
Yeah, so I like to tell people I'm a little follicly challenged, so I, I like to overcompensate with the mustache because it grabs people's attention, and then it veers the attention away from the fact that's all I can grow, so.
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs) Yeah. Yeah.
- JMJim Mullane
Focus on your strengths.
- CWChris Williamson
I get it, man. Peacocking, but only above the lip.
- JMJim Mullane
Yes. Eyes up, eyes up here.
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs) Yeah. Up top. Up top. Um, so your Instagram account, which is what a lot of people listening might know you for, Get Better with Books.
- JMJim Mullane
Yes.
- CWChris Williamson
How would you describe ... What is that? What is Get Better with Books?
- JMJim Mullane
Get Better with Books is currently the fastest growing Instagram page, uh, focused specifically on self-help, personal development, business-related books. It really just started as a, a creative endeavor where I could combine my, my interest in photography and my interest in reading and have, have something to do outside of my day job. But, uh, I've been doing it for almost two years now. May 15th will be my two-year anniversary running the page, and, uh, I think as of today, I'm a little over 85,000 followers. So I'm a little dumbfounded of h- how quickly it's grown and, and the fact that people enjoy seeing content specifically around books. But, uh, it's been a fun, fun journey so far.
- CWChris Williamson
Why do you think it is popular?
- JMJim Mullane
I think it ... For a couple different reasons. Number one, it, it speaks to, uh, the attitudes of a lot of people out there, not just, um, in the US but internationally speaking. If you take a look at some of the, uh, the data that I get to pull from the Instagram account, I'd say a third of my audience is US based, but the third's in Europe. Um, I'd say a overwhelming majority of people are from India. And I think it speaks to the psychographic of certain people who are just focused on developing themselves as an individual, right? They use books as a tool to, to better themselves, and I think it speaks to, uh, a lot of people who love reading, but more importantly, improving themselves.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah, for sure. How many books have you read? Do you know?
- JMJim Mullane
(laughs) Uh, I, I haven't kept count, unfortunately. I, I-
- CWChris Williamson
You're not one of these people that's like religious on Good, Good Reads or anything like that?
- JMJim Mullane
No. No, I, I don't, uh, keep an active Good Reads account. But if I were to estimate how many books that I've read in my lifetime, I'd say probably like 150, 160 books. And I think, uh, last year and the year before were really the first two years that I've actually kept track of how many books I've read. So last year, I think I got up to 50 for the course of the year, and the year before, I was at, you know, little over 30. Um, and it's important to, to also acknowledge the fact that these, these metrics, like how many books that you, you've read or how quickly you read books, I think that can be a distraction for a lot of people, where they, they see books as, as almost like a vanity metric, right? Like how many books have you read in total? Um, and I, I have this conversation with a lot of other book Instagram accounts that I, I see as cohorts, and we, we almost see that as, as a disdain, right? Like, if you read 100 books in a month but you don't ... you don't retain anything, right? Is, is it, is it worth it, or are you just using that metric to, you know, as a, as a feather in your cap, if you
- 3:45 – 7:51
Is it worth it
- JMJim Mullane
will?
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah. Well, I mean, in this age now, this sort of burgeoning underground movement, the, the new aphorists that are coming out that like the maxim ... You know, this show is called Modern Wisdom. I am part of the fucking problem as far as that bit's concerned, you know? Like, but my, my-
- JMJim Mullane
(laughs) Thanks, Chris.
- CWChris Williamson
There is, there is like a, um ... There is a, a, a, an ongoing subculture now of people that I think are kind of repatriating wisdom. You know?
- JMJim Mullane
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
Like kind of falling back into the, the, um, timeless understandings of the principles that we should live our life by, trying to uncover, uncover what we are, who we are, why we like the things we like, why the world operates the way that it does.
- JMJim Mullane
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
Um, and you're totally correct as well that by reading a lot or by saying that you read a lot ... You never know if someone actually does read two books a week or whatever. Uh, by either saying that you read a lot or reading a lot, you, um, you get to have the, the proxy. You get to have the veneer of looking wise-
- JMJim Mullane
Mm.
- CWChris Williamson
... whilst not ever having to deploy any wisdom. You know what I mean?
- JMJim Mullane
Hmm. Yeah, it's, it's an interesting juxtaposition of the two, right? Because you have the, the, the short morsels of, of wisdom that you get from social media, and you overlay that with the long-form content, which is inherently in books, right? And comparing the two, on the surface, it, it almost seems like it doesn't mix, right? Like, how can you surmise a, a 300 and 400-page book, uh, you know, like 12 R- Rules of Life, right? Jordan Peterson, for example, right? And you see, uh, he's very popular on social media, but it's hard to distill wisdom in a book like that in, you know, in an Instagram post, right?
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- JMJim Mullane
So it's an interesting dynamic between the two. But I also think it's a good opportunity to just expose more people to the benefits of reading, because, um, there are a lot of people who come to my account, and they ask me questions. They're like, "Hey, bro. Like, I just started reading a couple months ago. Like, what books would you recommend to a, a beginner?" And for someone like me, I, I don't see myself as an expert, right? Like, I, I'm just someone who, who likes reading, and I have an Instagram page. Like, apparently, that makes me an expert.
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- JMJim Mullane
But at, at, at the end of the day, there, there are a handful of books that I always go to as, "Hey, you're new to reading. Here are a few that you should consider reading." So-... um, I guess, I guess I am, I am somewhat of a book expert, if you follow my Instagram page.
- CWChris Williamson
I get it, yeah. Uh, we are going to get into that. We've got all of the recommendations, and that will be coming in a little bit. Uh ...
- JMJim Mullane
Cool.
- CWChris Williamson
But first, uh, what I wanted to ask was what are the common mistakes that you think people make, or perhaps the ones that you made as well, when building a reading habit? Because before you read the books that you might recommend to people-
- JMJim Mullane
Right.
- CWChris Williamson
... there has to be a habit to be able to actually get through them.
- JMJim Mullane
Absolutely. I, I think the first mistake that I come across from, um, a lot of new people is they, they feel like you have to finish a book, right? If you come across a book that was highly recommended and maybe you just don't find it interesting, it doesn't pique your, your, your nerve or it doesn't strike your nerve at all, you feel like you are forced to finish it from end to end, right? And that's one of the biggest mistakes because if, if you are not interested in a book, it's going to feel like a chore, right? It's not going to feel like something that you're, you're actually getting a lot of benefit from. So if you don't like a book, please do not waste the time. I mean, it's kind of like watching a movie. If you're sitting at home watching Netflix and you come across a movie and 10, 15 minutes into it, you, you just don't like it, you don't sit through the, the next 45, 50 minutes, right? So it's, it shouldn't be anything different than, than reading a book. And I think a lot of people just have this attitude that "I have to finish a book," which-
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- JMJim Mullane
... you know.
- CWChris Williamson
Is that su- Is it just sunk cost fallacy? Is it that people f- see it as a badge of honor to get through a difficult book?
- JMJim Mullane
Sometimes. It, there, there's a lot of, uh, public, uh, relations when it comes to, like, hey, say I'm gonna read this book and I need to save face by, by actually finishing it from start to end. Where having a, a little bit of, uh, self-confidence to say, like, "You know what? I did not like this book. I, I wanted to put it down and I wanted to start something that I'm interested." So, um, it's, it's really just being comfortable with yourself to say, "Yeah, not digging this. I'm gonna
- 7:51 – 13:14
Most selfdevelopment books should have been articles
- JMJim Mullane
put it down."
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah. It's, uh ... The, the other thing as well, this came from Kamal Ravikant, a conversation I had with him, and he said, um, "90% of self-development books should have been ..." Sorry, uh, "50% of self-development books should have been an article and 49% should have been a tweet."
- JMJim Mullane
Yeah. Absolutely.
- CWChris Williamson
And then there's 1% which actually needed 300 pages, 400 pages-
- JMJim Mullane
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
... to pad out the concept. John Peterson's is a, a good example, or anything by Taleb.
- JMJim Mullane
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
Like, you, you, there's not really, it's not about that, the one thing, you know?
- JMJim Mullane
Right. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Like Digital, Digital Minimalism by Cal Newport-
- JMJim Mullane
Yep. Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
... should have been an article.
- JMJim Mullane
Correct.
- CWChris Williamson
Now, don't get me wrong, you can have this, here's a strategy and it's a workbook and a course or whatever that you want to see it on the side.
- JMJim Mullane
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
But that, that could have been long blog post.
- JMJim Mullane
Right. And if you, if you read a lot more books, you come to that realization that most of the books that you read, they're either similar in a lot of ways or, just like you said, they probably could have been summarized in a page or, uh, maybe in a YouTube video.
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- JMJim Mullane
And I think one of the books in, in a hot, hot take here, and I, I actually get a lot of flack on Instagram for this, is, uh, there's a book, Start With Why by Simon Sinek. Uh, it's widely popular in, in the Bookstagramphere and, and people say, "This is a life-changing book." And I came across the book and I said, "This is, uh, mildly interesting, but I think it's very superficial. I, I think it's very redundant," and I wasn't a huge fan of this. And I was, I've been very public about my stance about that book. And that just goes to your, to your fact that not, not everyone has the same opinions on popular books.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
- JMJim Mullane
And I think it's very important to, to be upfront with yourself, to not, not pretend that you enjoy a book just because it's popular. But, um, add, to, to your point about these books that could be, uh, maybe summarized in a blog post, yeah, that's-
- CWChris Williamson
Honestly. (laughs)
- JMJim Mullane
That was, that was one of ... I, I think there's a, a four or five-minute video on, on YouTube about the, the Start With Why concept by him talking in a, in a Ted Talk. So anyone who has not read Start With Why, I would say just check out his YouTube video and if it's, if it's something that piques your interest a little bit more, then maybe pick up the book. So hopefully I saved you a couple of days of reading there.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah, yeah, for sure. Um, Mark Manson, The Subtle Art, like-
- JMJim Mullane
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
... just didn't get it, man. Just didn't.
- JMJim Mullane
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
I'm like, "Okay, Mark, you keep swearing. Cool."
- JMJim Mullane
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
Like ...
- 13:14 – 14:30
vanity metrics
- JMJim Mullane
- CWChris Williamson
I love that. Okay. So we know that you're not supposed to think that you need to finish a book.
- JMJim Mullane
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
That is a bad habit. Uh, what else? Before we get on to how to build a reading habit, are there any other, like, common errors that people are making when they, when they start out?
- JMJim Mullane
I think, uh, another common error is just focusing on the metrics, right? You, you get in this idea that I have to read, uh, 50 books this year, or I have to read two books a month because the latest businerinsider.com article said the most successful people are reading X amount of books per month, and I think I'm successful, so I need to live up to that metric, right? So I think beholding yourself to some of those external metrics, and I call vanity metrics, it almost lose, you lose sight of why you're reading in the first place, right? Like, at the end of the day, you want to pick up a book to either learn something new, to expand your wisdom, expand your perspective. And if those ideas, those thoughts are clouded by simply, "I need to finish this book faster so I can get to my next one," it's, it's counterproductive. So I think just-
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs) Going for the wrong things, right? Yeah.
- JMJim Mullane
Yeah, exactly. So I think it's more important to just remind yourself why you're reading in the first place as opposed to, like you just mentioned, like having, having like a tally mark next to how many books you read just for vanity purposes.
- 14:30 – 17:51
why youre reading
- JMJim Mullane
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah, I, I think ... I love the analogy and it's not one that I've thought of before about if you were watching a bad movie.
- JMJim Mullane
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
You know, like I'm ruthless on Netflix, man.
- JMJim Mullane
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
I's so ruth- ... I'm straight out of there, I'm pressing the back button telling everyone I'm sat with it, it's absolutely terrible. So, uh, and yeah, and, and it's the sa- ... You know, with books, I think, um, Ryan Holiday when he reverse interviewed Tim Ferriss on The Tim Ferriss Show, they talked about reading quite a lot, might be an interesting one for you. And, uh, I think his heuristic is if you are, um, whatever, 100 pages minus your age into a book-
- JMJim Mullane
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
... and you haven't wanted to send a photo of one of the passages to a buddy going like, "Oh my God, dude," like, "you've got to see this."
- JMJim Mullane
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
Um, that, like, that, that's the rule that he uses, and I really like-
- JMJim Mullane
Interesting.
- CWChris Williamson
I really like that.
- JMJim Mullane
Interesting.
- CWChris Williamson
And, uh, thinking back to some of the stuff that's got me recently, so Robert Wright's The Moral Animal just plain took my head off. I was like two pages in and then-
- JMJim Mullane
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... just on my highlights on Kindle, like just the whole page was highlighted.
- JMJim Mullane
Yeah. (laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
And I'm like, uh, "Ryan, you know what you're on about, man. I get it." So yeah, you, you, you're totally correct. Having the courage to put a book down despite what everybody else says-
- JMJim Mullane
Right.
- CWChris Williamson
... despite whether it's supposed to be cool, despite whether you loved their first book.
- JMJim Mullane
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
I loved Mark Manson's models.
- JMJim Mullane
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
So I've not given a fuck, couldn't give a fuck. Um, so-
- JMJim Mullane
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs) Uh, I always wanted to say that. Um-
- JMJim Mullane
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
Okay, so that's how we don't build a reading habit. How do we build a reading habit? Where do we start?
- JMJim Mullane
It starts with just being upfront about what your interests are, right? So if you, you take a look at the Get Better with Books page, there's an obvious emphasis on self-help, uh, personal development, business, right, maybe personal finance books. Uh, it's, it's unintended, but I've, I've catered towards a specific demographic of, you know, 18 to, to 34 males, right? College educated males, people who either have a steady career or are either getting into the workforce and are, are interested in, in upping their game, right? That's, that's, again, unintended about how, how I started and where I'm catered to. But at the end of the day, that's, that's not the interest of everybody out there, right? There are people who follow my page that are, you know, a f- they're 45-year-old woman from, from Pakistan, right? And she may not give a fuck about, uh, you know, what Dave Ramsey says about, uh, Total Money Makeover, right? And that's okay, right? And, uh, and back to your question about how to build a reading habit, it's that you need to be very honest with yourself about what you're interested in and starting from, you know, having an idea of what, what piques your interest. I think if you can choose topics and, and books and, and authors that are focused on those interests, that is the best way to build a reading habit because then it does not feel like a chore. It really just feels like, uh, a, a leisure activity. And once you can start building up a couple books specifically focusing on a topic that you're interested in and you get that reading habit, then you can start peering into the periphery about, oh, okay, well what's this, uh, you know, this business stuff, Zero to The One, Peter Thiel, like what's, what's that about? Or, or Ray Dalio principles. Like I see that all the time. Then reading starts to feel like less like a chore, but you can also, uh, expand your knowledge by reading stuff that you're not normally reading.
- 17:51 – 22:24
gym analogy
- JMJim Mullane
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah, no one goes into the gym and looks at like the big buff guy in the corner and says, "Yeah, gonna ... What, what you lifting there, mate? Right, okay. I'll ma- ... I'll put that on my barbell."
- JMJim Mullane
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
And I'll have a crack and-
- JMJim Mullane
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... uh, I've fucked my shit up. Like-
- JMJim Mullane
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
You know, that's, that's what happens. Um-
- JMJim Mullane
Yep.
- CWChris Williamson
So a- a- again, with that, like it's, it's common sense and that n- the Naval quote, the Naval quote about reading, uh, read what you love until you love to read.... uh, and then David Perell piggybacked you off the back of that the other day with his writing course he's got going at the moment. He says, "Write what you love until you love to write."
- JMJim Mullane
Mm.
- CWChris Williamson
Um, and th- the same could be done for exercise. It's-
- JMJim Mullane
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
... do the exercise that you love until you love to exercise as well. Like, the easiest training plan is the one that doesn't feel like you've got to go and train.
- JMJim Mullane
Exactly.
- CWChris Williamson
So, okay, so we know that we need to pick books, like in terms-
- JMJim Mullane
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
... of topic-wise. What do I do next?
- JMJim Mullane
Next, and if you're really serious about building the reading habit, it's, it's just like anything else. Like, you need to set aside time that you want to dedicate towards building that habit, right? So I think, you use the gym analogy all the time, and I, I like to equate reading to building a strong, you know, habit in the gym, right? Like, you don't start bench pressing 315 pounds overnight, right? You have to work your way towards it. But at the same time, you don't do chest exercises seven days in a row, right? You need to have some sort of balance when it comes to your reading habit. So a lot of people that, uh, are asking for book recommendations, a lot of time, I just tell them, "Hey, be open about exploring new topics that you're not normally, uh, accustomed to." And here's an example for me. So I, I obviously read a lot of personal development, self-help, business type books. Um, and a couple months ago at my sister's wedding, my uncle, who had no idea I was running this page, I told him. I was like, "Hey. Hey, Frank. I, I would like you to know that I run a semi-successful book page on Instagram," you know, a couple drinks in. I'm spouting my, my confidence there. And he's like, "Okay. I got a couple book recommendations for you." And these two books could not have been farther off the beaten path from the shit that I usually read. One of them was th- th- this Zen Art of, uh, Motorcycle Maintenance, right?
- CWChris Williamson
Yup, yup.
- JMJim Mullane
It's one of those legendary, uh ... I, I don't even know how to begin to describe that type of book. But I remember just reading the book, and t- to the point about getting into the book early. I, I was so just dumbfounded at what the fuck this book was about. I had no idea what it was about, but I couldn't stop reading it.
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs) Yeah.
- JMJim Mullane
Right? So I think it's, it's super important to, time in and time out, to just expose yourself to stuff that you're not accustomed to reading because that will spark some interest in, again, that periphery. You're like, "Huh. That actually is interesting. I don't know why I would, I would come across metaphysics and the reason of meaning." You know, and you can get lost in chapters and chapters in, in that book about what is meaning, what is the definition of meaning. I've never thought about that in my 32 years, but that did spark a little bit of curiosity, and I would not have come across that question if I, I was not open to taking a recommendation from someone, um, and just, just to open up my perspective a little bit.
- CWChris Williamson
What was the second book?
- JMJim Mullane
The second book was called, um, Thunder at Twilight. I, I forget the name of the author, but it was a historical work based off of Vienna, pre-World War I. So it's a lot to do with, uh, Austrian politics, Austrian economy. Uh, there's a lot of historical, uh, features. Um, you know, if you're familiar with, with Austria and, and Vienna pre-World War I, I'm sure, Chris, you're, you're very, uh, up to date on, on that specific time of the world.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah, that's, that's, that's, uh, literally my wheelhouse, man. I go, uh, sometimes I wake up on a morning and, and just start thinking about it. Yeah.
- JMJim Mullane
(laughs) And, um, and that's, that's one of those books where the writing completely lost me, right? Like, I, I was not into it. Um, there's a lot of historical references, uh, a lot of geological references, right? Like certain areas of Austria that they're just ribbing off like you're in a conversation with someone you knew, and I'm like, "Uh, w- w- what am I, what am I doing here? Like, what am I reading?"
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- JMJim Mullane
Um, but to, to my earlier point as to why I actually read it, there was a lot of social pressure, that's why I forced myself to finish it, because I was a part, in part of a book club with, uh, with my sister and my dad and my uncle, who actually recommended that book. So I felt a lot of pressure to finish this book because if I didn't, they'd be like, "Dude. The hell? Like, I just recommended this book and you didn't even read it, you asshole." So, uh, there are some times when I do succumb to, to social pressure in terms of finishing a book, even though I
- 22:24 – 26:45
social pressure
- JMJim Mullane
hate it.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah. I, I understand completely. So we need to set time aside for it. How ... My suggestion, I don't know how you do it, but as someone again who's, um, total noob to, as far as sort of the reading journey goes, but, um, my best way is part of the morning routine.
- JMJim Mullane
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
Put it in the morning routine, uh, set a timer for 20 minutes, read for 20 minutes and-
- JMJim Mullane
Yup.
- CWChris Williamson
... um, because I like to go back over stuff quite a lot-
- JMJim Mullane
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
... uh, I'm quite concerned about retention, um-
- JMJim Mullane
Yup.
- CWChris Williamson
... that can sometimes maybe even only be like 15 pages.
- JMJim Mullane
Yup.
- CWChris Williamson
Uh, and then sometimes it may be more like, if it's like fiction or something, it might be 30, uh-
- JMJim Mullane
Right.
- CWChris Williamson
Actually, it tends, tends to not be, uh, fiction in the morning. Another habit as well, another s- suggestion for people is to read nonfiction by day and read fiction by night.
- JMJim Mullane
Mm.
- CWChris Williamson
I tend to find that ... Or, not necessarily fiction, but like, uh, nonfiction story or biographies by night. Basically not personal development by night. You know, if you're trying to really get your mind going about how to upgrade your personal finances or this psychological-
- JMJim Mullane
Mm.
- CWChris Williamson
... strategy for building a business or working on yourself, sending yourself to sleep with that-
- JMJim Mullane
Hm.
- CWChris Williamson
... to me doesn't always put me in the quite, quite the right sort of mood, whereas if I'm just imagining this world or this story or this journal of something that's going on, that can make a bit of a difference.
- JMJim Mullane
Yeah, and I've heard similar talk tracks about combining both audiobooks and physical books in the same manner, right? Like, you use physical books for self-help, business, and, and personal development, and you use audiobooks for more of those biographies, memoirs, fiction, things that are easier to digest, right? And, um, a- at the end of the day, it's whatever works best for you. There's no one right way to, to consume books, whether if it's audiobooks or, or reading at night, reading in the morning. As long as you are doing it, you're gonna see some benefit from it.
- CWChris Williamson
How do we retain what we read?
- JMJim Mullane
It's a good question, and I think that's one of the biggest challenges that I often have too, and I, I make some references to this in, in my, uh, my Get Better With Books page. And I, I kind of joke at it that retaining books is very challenging, right? Like, so often you come across a book that you're like, "Damn, that was awesome. I love that book." And then two weeks later someone's like, "Hey, Jim, like, how's that book?" And you're like, "Um, so, uh, you know, it, it was good." Right?
- CWChris Williamson
There's a guy ... Does he ... Uh ...
- JMJim Mullane
"It's good. I recommend it. I recommend it, yeah." (laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
Do you get ... Yeah, yeah. (laughs) That's it.
- JMJim Mullane
So, I mean, it's, it's natural. It happens, uh, to everyone, right? To, to people who don't admit it, it, it's, it's very challenging to retain the stuff that you read. That being said, you do have to be very proactive about making sure there are key concepts that you, you wanna keep with you. And the process that I go through, it's, it's just three simple steps. Number one is I always read with a, a pencil or a, a highlighter, some sort of a writing apparatus with me. So every single time I come across something that, that makes me pause, that makes me go, "Hmm," or, you know, "That's interesting. Let me, let me expand on that," something that just tongs on that- tugs on that string of, of curiosity, I underline it, write it down, and make sure I, I f-fold a page down on, on the corner. Uh, so at the end of each chapter or at the end of the book, and it kinda depends on, on the book, you know, how I w- I wanna parse that out, but I always go back to the important parts every single time I finish a book, right? Make sure that I'm taking the time to, to digest the important parts so I can retain that, right? That's the whole, that's the whole goal here. So if I can take everything that I underlined or, or jotted down, I, I either put it in a notebook or I use note cards, right? So I'll, I'll take maybe a stack of, like, three or four note cards, and I, I did this for Ego Is the Enemy by Ryan Holiday, and I have them right on the corner of my wind- window sill over there, and I try to read them at least once a week. And that's, that's the important part is y- you underline everything, you write it down in some sort of notebook or, or note card. But I think the most important thing is you have to revisit them constantly, right? There's no way that you're gonna remember something if you don't constantly remind yourself of the importance of it. So for me personally, what I do is I keep those stack of note cards and, uh, you know, once or twice a week, uh, if I have a little free time, I'll just like to, to cycle through them and reread them and be like, "Hmm, that is interesting. I, I, I need to focus more on that." Or, "Yeah, you know, based off of what I know now, maybe that's not as important as I thought. Maybe I'll put it in, in, in the back of the pile." But it's, it's very important to constantly keep it top of mind.
- 26:45 – 27:40
digital vs analog
- JMJim Mullane
- CWChris Williamson
It's an interesting analog approach that you've got. So Bookcision or Readwise or Bookly or, you know, any-
- JMJim Mullane
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
... of these different apps that either integrate with an iOS reading app, that integrate with Kindle, that integrate with a Paperwhite, that allow you to export your highlights automatically and then they'll email them to you every day and all this sort of stuff.
- JMJim Mullane
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
Um, have y- is that just a, uh, disposition of yours, that you've preferred to go analog rather than digital with both the books you get and the way that you do your highlighting?
- JMJim Mullane
Yeah, it's just my, my preference, and I think a lot of that has to do with th- the physical aspect of writing it down just helps to ingrain those messages that much more, right? If I'm just simply highlighting something on a Kindle, and I, I don't use a Kindle at all. Most, most of my book reading is either through audiobook or, or physical book, right? So if I can physically underline something, if I can physically write it down and, and go through that process, I think it helps ingrain that message that much more as opposed to just doing everything digitally.
- 27:40 – 28:55
audiobooks vs normal books
- JMJim Mullane
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah. Um ... Your retention or the way that you find audiobooks versus, uh, normal books, reading?
- JMJim Mullane
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
How ... Do you, do you stick to what you said before where you've got more story, narrative style stuff on audio and more kind of-
- JMJim Mullane
Yep.
- CWChris Williamson
... personal development stuff on, on books?
- JMJim Mullane
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Tha- That's a ... I have to say, like, having developed a reading habit, worked real hard to develop whatever semblance of a reading habit I've got-
- JMJim Mullane
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
... um, over the last sort of three to four years, my retention from reading something physically versus listening to it isn't even in the same universe.
- JMJim Mullane
Right. Yeah. And I think a lot of that has to do with, with having more of a, an active verse a, a passive approach to the reading process itself, right? If you're just listening to an audiobook and, you know, maybe you're doing some chores, uh, you're doing some yard work or something like that, it's, it's really passive. But if you are reading a physical book, and again, this is just, this is my personal preference, there's no one right way to do this, um, but me personally having to be proactive about what I pick and choose to put in my notebook and being proactive to physically pick up these note cards, I, I think just being more active in that process helps to retain it, at least in my opinion.
- CWChris Williamson
I think as well we need
- 28:55 – 30:32
audiobooks vs podcasts
- CWChris Williamson
to ... So much of this is individual, right? There might be someone listening who's got perfect retention of what they consume on audio. And I have fantastic retention what I consume through podcasts. I can tell you, like, the type of fire hydrant outside of Chris D'Elia's house, like, you know, all the total useless information which I absolutely-
- JMJim Mullane
What kind of fire hydrant was it?
- CWChris Williamson
Uh, it's a silver one because he lives in Beverly Hills.
- JMJim Mullane
Ah.
- CWChris Williamson
And in Beverly Hills you get silver fire hydrants.
- JMJim Mullane
Someday, someday we'll have our nice hydrants.
- CWChris Williamson
Bro, I don't ... Um, so, you know, just like random stuff. And it's like, um, I can pick that up through podcasts.
- JMJim Mullane
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Audiobooks retention is a little bit less. I feel less involved. There's less energy going on, um, in my, in my opinion. Um, but if I'm not so bothered about retention and it's more the overall feel-
- JMJim Mullane
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Um, and again, that relates to the type of book, right?
- JMJim Mullane
Right. Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
If there's a core lesson, which is the whole book trying to give it to you with a number of different stories-
- JMJim Mullane
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... perhaps an audiobook would be great for that, whereas if it's like, you know, if it's the 10 things you need to do to complete your ex-
- JMJim Mullane
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... th- you're only gonna get, like, maybe one or two if that's not the style-
- JMJim Mullane
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... that you learn in. Um ...
- JMJim Mullane
Yeah. Exactly. And y- you do a good job at, at reminding people that there is no one right way to do it, but also to the point that certain books out there are just so much harder to retain, right? Like if you've, if you've read Robert Greene's 48 Laws of Power, right, there's so many different laws, and a lot of them are contradictory. You're like, "Hey, uh, Law 13 you told me something else, and Law S- 17 it's completely different." So I think it's important to distill what type of book it is, but also at the same time, just, just cut yourself some slack. You're not gonna remember it if you-
- 30:32 – 33:00
what is a terrible audiobook
- CWChris Williamson
I, I'll tell you what is a terrible audiobook to listen to, Thinking Fast and Slow.
- JMJim Mullane
... it's, uh, it's a challenging read if, if you actually sit down and read it too. It's challenging, uh, regardless-
- CWChris Williamson
Y-
- JMJim Mullane
... of how you consume it.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah, the way... Because there's so many mental, uh, exercises, and it's like, "Look at-"
- JMJim Mullane
Yep.
- CWChris Williamson
... "these, this list of letters on either side of the page." And you're th- listening to it, and you're like... And someone told me, someone had said, "Bro, you don't wanna... You don't wanna try and listen to that book." And I was like, "No, fuck you. It's 20 hours plus." Like, "I'm listening to this."
- JMJim Mullane
Yeah. (laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
"I'm not reading this." (laughs) And then sure enough, I was (laughs) an hour into it, and I was like, "I don't know what's going on. I don't know-"
- JMJim Mullane
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
"... who anybody is. I think he got married to her. Like, I don't know." So okay, okay, right.
- JMJim Mullane
Yeah. (laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
We're, we're into the meat of it. This is what everybody came for. So let's say that I'm getting into reading personal development.
- JMJim Mullane
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
What, what gets me through the door? What's the entrance ticket into the world of personal development? Where do I start?
- JMJim Mullane
I think the first book that I always recommend people is Atomic Habits by James Clear, uh, for a lot of reasons, right? It's, it's one of those books that's easy to read. It's not convoluted in, in the messaging, but also the language to, to convey the lessons. But there's actionable insights, right? And I gauge a lot of, uh, how I see a book based off of how easy it is to consume, but also how easy it was, is how easy it is to implement, right? And Atomic Habits is just an A+ in both of those regards. I mean, it's something... And I was actually just thinking about this today because, uh, a little plug for Get Better With Books, I'm building out a YouTube account, and my first video that I'm planning right now is all about the five, uh, life-changing books that I've come across, and Atomic Habits was one of them. And one of the key components that I always remind myself about Atomic Habits is having an identity-based habit system. And you, I mean, you see you're nodding your head because this is something that, uh, y- if you're in that personal development sphere, it's, it's something you take very, very serious, right? Like, if you want to build a better reading habit, rather than just being like, "Oh, I need to do this and this to become a better reader," rather than doing that, you should just focus on seeing yourself as a reader, identifying yourself as a reader, but then also taking it one step further and thinking, "What would a reader do?" Right? So almost reverse engineering that habit by identifying yourself as someone who's already had that, and then going forward with small little wins, right? And that's just, like, a quick snippet of, of, uh, Atomic Habits, and it's just one of those books that every single person I've come across has, has come back universally saying, "This, this was a fucking awesome,
- 33:00 – 35:49
books that are classics
- JMJim Mullane
awesome book."
- CWChris Williamson
Outrageous.
- JMJim Mullane
"Thank you for recommending this."
- CWChris Williamson
The fact that it's so new does-
- JMJim Mullane
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
... it a disservice, I think.
- JMJim Mullane
(laughs) In, in a, in a way?
- CWChris Williamson
You know, there's, there's a LinDy-
- JMJim Mullane
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... the, the LinDy argument that you should be reading books that are the classics.
- JMJim Mullane
Right.
- CWChris Williamson
Um, and, uh, the, that is the antidote to the fact that there is a lot of self-development books that come out all the time, and you need to be careful, um-
- JMJim Mullane
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
... in what you invest your time in. But obviously, that puts new classics-
- JMJim Mullane
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
... on the back foot. And Atomic Habit-
- JMJim Mullane
Yep.
- CWChris Williamson
Atomic Habit's gonna be read in, in 20, 30 years' time, 100%.
- JMJim Mullane
Yep. Yep. Yep. So that's always, uh, near the top of the list for me, and add- to add on top of that, uh, in terms of easy takeaways, the number two book that I always recommend, it's, uh, it is a classic, back to that how long has this book been available for, Dale Carnegie's, uh, How to Win Friends and Influence People. So this is a, a, a staple in that self-development, personal self-help regiment, right, if you will. Um, that book's been around for close to 100 years now, and it, it is still on the top of the bestsellers list because of how, again, easy it is to digest and how easy it is to implement it into your daily life, and... How I came across this book was an interesting story. So I just graduated college. It was, um, you know, gosh, almost eight, nine years ago. Um, had no idea what I was doing with my future, right? Like, I was just aimlessly wandering around in my, my, uh, my early 20-year-old existence, right? And, um, I was puttering around e- at my house, and I was walking through my dad's old office. He used to... He'd run his own business from the basement of my, my parents' house. So when he moved out, he left all of his books there. So I was just going through, uh, some of his old books, and I came across this book, How to Win Friends and Influence People, and I was like, "Oh, that sounds interesting," right? I just based a book by its cover, quite literally there. So I picked it up. I read it in, uh, probably a couple days' time, and it really changed my perspective mainly on how you communicate with people, number one, but number two, having the perspective to see how your message is perceived by the other person's eyes, right? If you can communicate with someone and not be all about me, me, me, me, but rather look from their perspective as to, "Why would this person even wanna talk to me?" Well, most likely, they wanna talk about themselves, right? People are inherently selfish, and they, they wanna talk about themselves, right? That's just the nature of people. So if you can use that to your advantage, uh, one of the key adages that I always use from, from How to Win Friends and Influence People is, "To be interesting, be interested." So if you were talking to someone and you can genuinely be interested in what they're saying, and you say, "Hey, tell me a little bit more about that. Oh, that's, that's fascinating. How is that, how is that, uh, impacting your life?" And really just having that perspective of how is this conversation beneficial to that person, people will come away from that conversation being like, "Holy shit. Jim is a great conversationalist," even though that person just talked 45
- 35:49 – 39:29
Jims great conversationalist
- JMJim Mullane
minutes about themselves.
- CWChris Williamson
About themselves, yeah. I can't remember the book that this is in. Oh, this is gonna kill me. You might be able to tell me. Um, there was a study done, uh, where they put a guy on a plane and they said, "We need you to sit. Uh, we need you to speak to the person next to you for the entire flight." And it's like a eight-hour flight. Like, "Don't let them... You don't want... They're not allowed to look at the screen. They're not allowed to look out the..." Like, "Just get their attention, but-"
- JMJim Mullane
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
"... you're not allowed to tell them anything about you, not even your name."
- JMJim Mullane
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
"Not allowed to tell them anything about you." And anyway, we get off and they do a little survey afterwards and, uh, they're going up to all of the passengers, but it's this particular guy that they're looking for. And they-
- JMJim Mullane
Yep.
- CWChris Williamson
... get to the person he was speaking to and they say, "Uh, hello, sir. We're just going a- around today just doing a little bit of a survey. Just wanted to ask how your flight was and who you were sat next to and what you talked about."
- JMJim Mullane
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
He said, "Oh, I was sat next to this amazing guy who I... He's such a, such a phenomenal guy. Like, you know, it's just... He, we, we..."... c- classic conversation is, "Oh, that's brilliant, would you be able to tell us his name?" And the guy's like, "Uh, uh, uh," no, and you, that, that just drills it home, right? You know, people like-
- JMJim Mullane
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... people like to talk about themselves. And I think as well, like, it's not often that people are interested. Like, this is a catastrophe that plays off the back of something which is real pervasive-
- JMJim Mullane
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
... that, um, you don't often get people that are interested. So when you do, you're like, "Oh, I can share that."
- JMJim Mullane
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
"I get to, I can open myself up and I can talk about ..."
- JMJim Mullane
They're not staring at their phone while they're talking.
- CWChris Williamson
I can play with ideas.
- JMJim Mullane
That's, yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Okay. How, Win Friends and Influence People, Atomic Habits. Where are we going next?
- JMJim Mullane
Uh, third, it's a combination of, of two because there's, there's really two modes of thought here. One is, if you want to go down a motivational route, book Can't Hurt Me by, by David Goggins is just one of those books that just kicks you in the ass, right? This dude, if you've heard him on the Joe Rogan podcast or if you've heard his audiobook, like he is just that raw motherfucker that's, you know, "Fuck this, fuck that, come on."
- CWChris Williamson
Stay hard.
- JMJim Mullane
"Stay hard, stay hard." And you're listening to this guy and you're like, you, you don't even realize but your fists are clenched and you're like, your, your jaw's clenched and you're like, "Yeah." Like, you're about to, to rip off some flesh with your bare teeth. But that's just one of those motivational books where you, you listen to someone's story and you can really understand how far the human potential can take and just based off of your own mental limitations, right? So if you can distill someone's personal journey just based off of pushing those boundaries, it starts to open up your eyes as to, "You know, maybe I'm being a little bit of a bitch in this, this area of my life" or, you know, "Maybe I gave up a little bit easier there." So it's, it's those types of motivational stories that I, I actually made a post about it on my Instagram yesterday about Goggins has this unique capability of calling out your bullshit while motivating you at the same time. And I think it's those types of books that keep you accountable, um, to look yourself in the mirror, like he uses the accountability mirror, right? He emphasizes that just making sure that you're doing everything that you can day in and day out to push that potential. But the second book, and this is a little bit away from, from that motivational, is to Cal Newport, like you were saying about digital minimalism, one of my favorite books, especially right now given the state of the world, state of the events is Deep Work, right? If, if you are a creative, if you are an entrepreneur, if you are doing anything where you want your work to speak for itself, I think it's never been more important than it is right now to set aside some time where you are uninterrupted, where you can take long periods of time to focus on your work at hand. And I think Cal Newport does a great job at outlining why deep work, given the state of events right now, is, is one of the most important skills that you can,
- 39:29 – 42:03
Deep work
- JMJim Mullane
you can work on.
- CWChris Williamson
It's a, it's a term all of its own now, right? You know?
- JMJim Mullane
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Like people talk about doing deep work.
- JMJim Mullane
Right.
- CWChris Williamson
And it's a reference to him. I couldn't agree more. It's an antithesis. It is the, it's the antidote to the, the always on million projects, million tabs open at once catastrophe that we find ourselves in. Okay, so we've got, we've got our foundation for self-development. This is, we're in, we're in the door now, and why don't we do some books that you think people may not have either heard of or not read, some undiscovered gems still staying in the self-development space? And then we'll go into more like a biography and then maybe a fic, a couple of fictions as well.
- JMJim Mullane
Sure. So if we want to start with a book that's a little bit under the radar that is equally as important when it comes to personal development and self-help is a book by James Allen called As a Man Thinketh. It's a very simple read. I think it's, it's no more than 150 pages. But the basis of that is it's very similar to Napoleon Hill, you know, concept about thinking good thoughts and making sure that you're, you're proactive about the way that you're thinking, right? Using thinking as, as a model for success. And it's similar to Marcus Aurelius, right? When he, when he says, "Control your thoughts, control your life." The basis of this book, As a Man Thinketh, is just being very proactive about your thoughts as an entity, right? So if you go about your day being very pessimistic, very cautious, you know, being overall doom and gloom, right? Like that's going to manifest itself in, in your actions and the way that you pursue your, your ambitions in life. But if your overall optimistic, if you're overall energetic, and if you believe in yourself, if you tell yourself, and you constantly remind yourself that you're capable of doing powerful things, and this is just based off of having that initial thought process that you can, it's just something that you can constantly use to cultivate a lot of that positive energy in your life. And I think one of the key takeaways and the key quotes that I got from that is he compares your mind to a garden, right? And if you're constantly cultivating your mind in a way that you're, you're cultivating a lot of good thoughts, it's going, it's going to yield a lot of positive things, right? It's going to yield a bountiful fruit or vegetables, things that's going to be nourishing to your life. Whereas if you're, if you're neglecting your thoughts, if you're neglecting your mind, similar to a garden, it's going to yield a lot of weeds and a lot of things that are going to clutter your vision, right? So I think it's very important to be very proactive about how you think because that in itself manifests into your life.
- 42:03 – 43:44
Whats next
- JMJim Mullane
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah. And also not a very nice place to be, an ugly garden, as I, as my garden used four years ago. Now it's beautiful. I got flower wall and everything. But yeah, tend, tend to your garden. What's next? What else we got? Let's go another sort of under, under-known, underrated self-development.
- JMJim Mullane
Um, actually an interesting book that you may know well aware of is Economy of Truth by Vizzy Andrei.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah. Have you got the second version? Have you got the new version?
- JMJim Mullane
I haven't got the, the new version yet.
- CWChris Williamson
Oh, Vizzy, what are you doing, man? So he's done an expanded, an expanded version. I have a couple of copies over there that's literally just now... I don't think he can get it to himself. So he's in Romania.
- JMJim Mullane
Okay.
- CWChris Williamson
And Amazon isn't delivering his own book to him.So he-
- JMJim Mullane
Oh, come on.
- CWChris Williamson
... he sent it to me and he was like, "Yo, bro, can you just h- have a go through and see if there's any printing errors?" And stuff like that.
- JMJim Mullane
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
Which is so hilarious. I went, "Yeah, no worries." Um, but yeah, Economy of Truth by Vizzy. Tell us, tell us about it.
- JMJim Mullane
Yeah. Yeah, so it's, it's another one of those books, and we were talking about this earlier in the conversation, about distilling wisdom into that bite-size, manageable format and content. And I think Vizzy is someone who I interacted mainly off of my Instagram page, like he hit me up. Um, I had actually been following him on my personal account for, for almost a year before I started my page, and he had reached out to me, so I was almost a little like starstruck.
- CWChris Williamson
Starstruck, hmm.
- JMJim Mullane
I'm like, "Shit, Th- Vizzy's reaching out to me. I made it." Uh, but it's just one of those books that's, it's just parsed down wisdom. Um, it's, it covers everything from, from philosophy and just, just daily, um, personal development. It's just one of those books that's easy to consume but at the same time gets you to think. And I think at the end of the day, if, if you can read a book that actually creates, uh, an opportunity to pause and think, I think you're onto something good
- 43:44 – 47:16
Nonfiction
- JMJim Mullane
there.
- CWChris Williamson
It's a unique type of book. It's short aphorisms.
- JMJim Mullane
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
You could pick it up and put it down in a page.
- JMJim Mullane
Yes. Right.
- CWChris Williamson
Uh, as long as you gave yourself three or four minutes to think about what was on that page and how it relates to your life. It's a very unique way of reading, and as we mentioned earlier on, much more active, you know?
- JMJim Mullane
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
Um, so okay, let's get into perhaps some more not necessarily personal development but still nonfiction. Uh, just some, either some favorites, some unknown ones, whatever you think.
- JMJim Mullane
Yeah, so there's, there's a, a recent trend that I've been encountering. It's the, the, the memoir type of book, where it's, it's an individual who's not writing about their whole life story, but more so just like a very specific, uh, focus, uh, an experience that happened over the course of their life. And one of the books that I just encountered, memoir style, was Educated by Tara Westover. It was, uh, a, a phenomenal story, and it was just based off of this, this girl who grew up in Bumfuck, Idaho, right?
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- JMJim Mullane
And this was, this was a recent story, true story too. Um, she was part of a family that was deep, really religious, but also fiercely separatist. So her father was one of those guys that says, you know, "School is, is the devil, school, the government, Illuminati." Like, distrust everything. So she came from a family that was very rarely homeschooled, no, no formal education. But she got to a point in her adolescence where she said, "You know, I want to go to school." And the book was all about her trajectory from basically being having no education to getting into BYU, getting honors, going to grad school, getting her doctorate from Harvard University. And this transition from having no education to having the most education, uh, some of the key tenets there are, are all about your identity, right? Like who, how do you see yourself, uh, throughout the course of your transition, your adolescence, and through your course of your life? And for her, you know, her family always harped on having an education as something that was, uh, you know, untrustworthy, right? Like, "Oh, you're, you're one of them. You're one of those educated folks." And it's one of those books where you have this identity of who, who you think you are and how you see yourself, but also in relation to your closest, you know, friends and, and family, right? So, um, how does my family perceive me? How does that affect how I see myself? But it's also about just having the confidence in your own identity to say, "Hey, this may, this may piss people off, this may rub people the wrong way, but I have enough convictions in myself that this is who I truly am, regardless of the consequences." So, uh, I can't recommend that one enough. It's one of those, those page-turners where you come across an author who's just a fantastic writer and storyteller. So, uh, Educated, Tara Westover. Highly recommend it.
- CWChris Williamson
Amazing. What's next?
- JMJim Mullane
Uh, Shoe Dog. For, for those who, who have followed my page, you know, obviously I do a lot of personal development, um, you know, business type books, but Shoe Dog falls into one of those books that is just one of, uh, an absolute page-turners. So if anyone has not read Shoe Dog, it's a personal memoir by Phil Knight, who was the, uh, founder of a little company called Nike, right? And it goes through his, his, uh, upbringing from how he was a, a local track star in, in Oregon to, to how he started this fledgling company into a, you know, multi-billion dollar enterprise, right? And that, that in itself is an interesting story. But if we talk about what makes a book interesting and what really gravitates you, it's, it's that writing style. And Phil Knight has one of those unique writing styles where it's, it's almost like a, it- it's like a vapor, right? It's like he's, he's going off in every single direction, but it's so eloquent in the essence where you can get what he's saying, but there's so much style and charisma to, to the way that he writes. So Shoe Dog, definitely add that one to your
- 47:16 – 48:19
The Ride of a Lifetime
- JMJim Mullane
list too.
- CWChris Williamson
I love it. And then one that might be a little bit less well-known from that similar sort of genre, before we do a bit of fiction.
- JMJim Mullane
Yeah, one, one thing that I would also add to that list, it's, it's another recent book similar to that vein about business and, and personal memoirs, was, uh, The Ride of a Lifetime by Bob Iger, who was, um, actually just recently stepped down as the CEO and chairman of Disney, right? So one of these business titans that talks a lot about his, his upbringing. And this is an interesting point. When you read a lot of these, these business and, and memoir type books, you see a lot of commonalities. You see a lot of similarities between these people who have so much success. And, uh, The Ride of a Lifetime is one of those books where these guys just have an insatiable work ethic. They have the confidence, they have the vision, but they also have the wherewithal when they come across failures and they come across life just, just kicking 'em down a peg, having a lot of confidence in yourself to, to dr- dust yourself off and, and keep going. So Ride of a Lifetime, Bob Iger, rise of, uh, of Disney as a company, definitely a, a great read too.
- 48:19 – 49:39
Watership Down
- JMJim Mullane
- CWChris Williamson
That's sick. And now finishing up, couple of fiction books. We've got our daytime reads sorted. We maybe got a couple of nighttime reads as well. Um, what are some, some fiction books that you, uh, that you've read recently that you've enjoyed?
- JMJim Mullane
So there's, there's one fiction book that I will always recommend, and this one was, was given to me by an old colleague of mine, was a book called Watership Down.... uh, I'm not sure if you're familiar with that. It's, um, it's, (laughs) it's a story about rabbits.
- CWChris Williamson
Okay.
- JMJim Mullane
Right? So-
- CWChris Williamson
I see.
- JMJim Mullane
So yeah, so it's a, it's a book about how a flock of rabbits was displaced due to deforestation and, and their trek across unchartered land, right? And you're thinking, "Okay, a book about rabbits, how is that relevant?"
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- JMJim Mullane
But I think it talks a lot about key tenets of, of camaraderie, um, shared mission, uh, courage, right, a lot of these key tenets, uh, virtues that y- you like to see in the hero's journey, right? Um, and seeing it, uh, unveiled in these cute, cuddly rabbits and, and the, the constant threat of predators like foxes and, and, uh, you know, great, great horned owls, right, the things that you, you don't see as, as a predator but for you to look in the perspective of a rabbit, you think, "Holy shit, you know, life as a rabbit's pretty hard these days."
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- JMJim Mullane
Um, but it's, it's just one of those ... It's a- again, one of those stories that's very easy to follow along but at the same time, like, you get some, uh, some inspiration and, and personal reflection from, from reading about rabbits.
- 49:39 – 51:48
Conclusion
- JMJim Mullane
- CWChris Williamson
I like the idea of using fiction as a way to, uh, learn lessons that s-
- JMJim Mullane
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... that some personal development books can't teach us. I always use the-
- JMJim Mullane
Yep.
- CWChris Williamson
... example about 1984, that it taught me more about appreciating the power of my thoughts than pretty much any other self-development book could have done.
- JMJim Mullane
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
Um, uh, because it's delivered in this s- like this alleg- allegori- allegorical, weird sort of symbolic way, you know? It's a, it's an odd one. But look, man, Jim, it has been so fun. Um, I implore everybody to go and check out @getbetterwithbooks on-
- JMJim Mullane
That's it.
- CWChris Williamson
... Instagram. When's the YouTube-
- JMJim Mullane
That's it.
- CWChris Williamson
... channel gonna be live? When, and is that Get Better With Books as well?
- JMJim Mullane
That's also Get Better With Books, yeah. Um, I got my microphone being shipped from Amazon.com this weekend, so I plan on filming, editing, and posting my first video this weekend.
- CWChris Williamson
Listen, we are after-
- JMJim Mullane
Uh, so yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... that, so it will be in the show notes below. Anything else that you wanna plug, any other things people w- should go and check out o- of yours?
- JMJim Mullane
No, that's it. Right now just, just got the Instagram handle, get the YouTube coming out, so, uh, working on and just keep creating good content and, uh, appreciate everybody for every, for their time and attention.
- CWChris Williamson
Bro, it's, it's an absolute pleasure. You need to go and check this out. I also have to give a shout-out to how patient you are to align books perfectly straight.
- JMJim Mullane
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
Like, the ability to put books in completely neat lines with all the gaps being exactly the same way is just, uh, you know? That's not too uncommon.
- JMJim Mullane
Little bit OC- little bit OCD but at the same time gotta, gotta put good content out there. IG is very competitive, so take the time to, to post good pics, baby.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah, I get it, man. Look, Jim, thank you so much. Everyone that's been listening, um, all of the books that we've just gone through will be linked below in the show notes, every single one of them. So if you think, "I'm gonna go check that out," it's all linked in the show notes below. You need to go and give Jim a follow, @getbetterwithbooks. But for now, thanks man. Thank you so much.
- JMJim Mullane
Likewise, Chris. Good chatting with ya. Be well.
- NANarrator
(outro music)
Episode duration: 51:48
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