Modern WisdomHow To Have Better Arguments With Your Partner - The Freemans | Modern Wisdom Podcast 285
EVERY SPOKEN WORD
105 min read · 21,043 words- 0:00 – 1:32
The “argument hangover”: why fights linger and relationships stall
- JFJocelyn Freeman
With any relationship, a son or daughter, could be a friend, family member, coworker, and then spouse, if there's something you notice in that relationship that you often get triggered by, what you wanna do is come to them and say, "Hey, you know what? I realize I often get triggered by-"
- AFAaron Freeman
You saying-
- JFJocelyn Freeman
"... you saying X. Now, I know I'm giving that meaning, but it would really help me if we could create an agreement that you wouldn't bring that up when (laughs) we have an argument."
- CWChris Williamson
We're talking about how to have better arguments today. What is the argument hangover?
- JFJocelyn Freeman
Love that actually. You know, when, when we say that to anybody, they kinda get the sense.
- AFAaron Freeman
What it feels like.
- JFJocelyn Freeman
People have had argument, or they've had arguments, yes, they've had hangovers too, whether food or alcohol. So the argument hangover specifically would be that period of time between having a disagreement, we talk about a romantic partner, but honestly this could be with a friend, a family member, and then there's the things that you say and do, and then it's the period of time that you feel disconnected, you feel frustrated. You may feel guilty for the things that you said and what you did-
- AFAaron Freeman
Mm-hmm.
- JFJocelyn Freeman
... that has that relationship feel either stalled or just really disconnected.
- AFAaron Freeman
Mm-hmm.
- JFJocelyn Freeman
And that can last for a day, two days, weeks, months. It can actually lead to relationships ending.
- AFAaron Freeman
Mm-hmm.
- JFJocelyn Freeman
And that argument hangover finally ends when you get it resolved fully emotionally, which some people don't.
- CWChris Williamson
That's relationship sobriety then. (laughs)
- 1:32 – 2:20
Healthy conflict is rare in media—so people bail instead of learning to stay
- AFAaron Freeman
(laughs) In a way, right. Well, it's in a way like, I mean, I know you'll ask some great questions about this, but what my pattern used to be was if things weren't going well in a relationship and conflicts were coming up, sure, we would try and I would do all the yelling and the name-calling and I let my emotions have it be a free-for-all, but then when it just got hard, I'd leave. And sometimes I think really the s- I think across the world that there's a big conversation about relationships should be mostly good. And we don't see a lot of portrayals, especially in media, of like what does healthy conflict look like and how to stay in a relationship even when things get challenging. So people unfortunately, like you said, will just leave the relationship.
- JFJocelyn Freeman
Or how to leverage that conflict into an opportunity-
- AFAaron Freeman
Mm-hmm.
- JFJocelyn Freeman
... to grow and strengthen that understanding and that relationship.
- 2:20 – 5:41
Unremarkable arguments and the deeper issue underneath ‘socks and dishes’
- CWChris Williamson
One of the things I was talking about toward the end of last year is unremarkable depression.
- AFAaron Freeman
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
So a lot of the time when we see people hit rock bottom, it's a big deal and there's almost bizarrely a bit of glory attached to it. Perhaps that's the archetypes that we see in media. But you know, when someone has a full-blown breakdown, perhaps they get sectioned, perhaps they need to go onto some antipsychotics, but they know, like from that bottom position, there is nowhere else to go. Like, you have to get better. That is where you go. The concern that I had, this common malaise, this ambient anxiety that people have-
- AFAaron Freeman
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
... where life, it vacillates from kind of crap to just about acceptable and then back down again. And you're right, it, that, the, the normal, the unremarkable arguments, I suppose over time will compound to chip away at confidence in a relationship to the point where death by a thousand cuts occurs.
- AFAaron Freeman
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
Divorce.
- JFJocelyn Freeman
Mm-hmm.
- AFAaron Freeman
Mm-hmm. Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, it can be the small things, but even some of the things that seem like they're small and people would just try to brush under the rug, people miss out on the gold that's inside of that. Like even we say to people, "You're not upset about the dishes, you're not upset about the socks. You're not even upset really about finances." Because sometimes couples argue about money, it's something underneath that that's getting triggered and perhaps it's coming from your past. And so like what you said, even though they're unremarkable, people still just don't even find the bigger lesson that's available to them. They don't see relationships as the place to transform. You were talking right before we started, right, about self-development and really self-actualization, becoming the best you, and-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- AFAaron Freeman
... relationships are the most rapid intense way you can access that. But people don't look at conflicts-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- AFAaron Freeman
... as really the place for that to even get revealed.
- CWChris Williamson
Is that because we presume that relationships should just be smooth sailing and if there's arguments then that means problem, and if there's problem, then there's Tinder on my phone and, you know, 3.5 billion other people of the gender that I'm attracted to out there, I'll just crack on.
- AFAaron Freeman
Right. We don't like being disagreed with, right? So the moment that our partner threatens our ego and our ego gets triggered, you're disagreeing with me, you're not getting my perspective. And also, you know, people do say things that are damaging in times of conflict.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- AFAaron Freeman
You, you read about, uh, parts of the book and we talk about emotional triggers, and that's really what we wanna rewrite the script on is conflict, especially healthy conflict, can be a good thing for your relationship. And if we can have couples embrace conflict in a new way, I really think breakups would decrease, divorces would decrease, and overall there'd be more happiness in relationships.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- JFJocelyn Freeman
I mean, we live, we do live in a society with so much comfort, right? So there's a certain level of avoiding anything-
- AFAaron Freeman
Mm-hmm.
- JFJocelyn Freeman
... at all that seems uncomfortable because of the houses we live in, temperature controlled, we have food at our fingertips, we have Amazon Prime that'll bring anything to our doorstep immediately. So we do live in a very, you know, comfortable society, of course, that quick hit of dopamine. And so we don't really have the level of acceptance or allowance to go into the uncomfortable to find-
- AFAaron Freeman
Mm-hmm.
- JFJocelyn Freeman
... what might be in there.
- CWChris Williamson
I wonder whether there is, thinking about me, I try and put myself into situations of discomfort, sometimes voluntarily, sometimes involuntarily by accident-
- JFJocelyn Freeman
(laughs)
- AFAaron Freeman
Mm-hmm.
- 5:41 – 9:10
Outdated beliefs about conflict: from ‘boxing match’ to ‘same team’
- CWChris Williamson
... um, quite regularly. But I don't see discomfort in a relationship as an area for growth. That's a paradigm that I would need to step into. So hopefully today you can deliver that red pill. What are the outdated beliefs about conflict?
- AFAaron Freeman
Mm. Well, even the one you just touched on.
- JFJocelyn Freeman
Oh, that it's bad.
- AFAaron Freeman
Exactly. What you just touched on is even one, that it's bad and that I should instead change the partner. So the moment things aren't going well, you talked about like the uncomfortable and people lean away from that. Now of course, if there's a line where a relationship just isn't aligned, right? But if there's alignment in the relationship, you have a shared vision, you have a shared, you know, values, you actually desire the same type of relationship. And some, that's a lot of times where people need to start. What kind of relationship do we even want to build towards? So if you align in that way then one of the outdated beliefs is that conflict shouldn't be happening. And that if we do argue and we get triggered... I mean, my triggers, if he judged me based on how I showed up when I was triggered and "gave up on me," I wouldn't get to transform to be the person that I am now. And so I think just, yeah, one of the outdated beliefs being it- it shouldn't be happening.
- JFJocelyn Freeman
Yeah, or r- you know, rocking the boat.
- AFAaron Freeman
Mm-hmm.
- JFJocelyn Freeman
You know, a similar one, bringing up something more proactively because it is gonna bring up a conflict. And the analogy here, you know, really to your point, why does this seem to be the paradigm right now in romantic or- or any relationship is because the way we see it and the very first response, even within our own mind, our first thought and then our following actions are more like a boxing match. So it's like the bell rings and now you're going against that person. Now what we want to invite especially couples into is that you can take your initial actions, your initial thoughts and following actions to get yourself on the same side, more like a basketball team or a football team that faces an opponent, but they do it as a team. Now all of a sudden, as a team, you're looking at, how do we overcome this challenge? How do we see this challenge as what it could provide for us to grow, to strengthen, to become a better team, to win the game, to win the championship? So if you can take the steps to first stay on the same team looking at the challenge rather than coming at it like a boxing match, you've changed the game.
- CWChris Williamson
Absolutely. Team is the word that I had in my head, and it's one that I've been thinking about a lot recently as well. I was a bit of a bastard, I guess, through my 20s with girlfriends. I wasn't a particularly good boyfriend. Like, just classic young lad that was a dick.
- AFAaron Freeman
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
Um, and, uh, there is something that's happened over the last five years and I really, really hope that all of the people that I care about that listen to this show, and everyone else as well that I don't care about, uh, that they can have that same transformation.
- AFAaron Freeman
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
Because I- I can't wait to settle down, wife, dogs, kids, because I know all of the work that I've done and the time that I've spent on myself, I want to make them better. But I don't think that I would've had that mindset five years ago. And I can also see another world in which I would've never moved from being that person to being the person that I am now. Much more cognizant around my emotions, much more aware of the texture of my own mind, much more, uh, understanding of other people and the, um, vicissitudes that they're going to go through in life, right?
- AFAaron Freeman
Mm.
- 9:10 – 11:21
Is relationship growth individual or shared? The ‘100–100’ model
- CWChris Williamson
Um, how much of the development of a relationship is on the individual and how much is a combined effort between the partners?
- AFAaron Freeman
Oh my gosh. Well, I'd say it's 100-100. It's 100% both, right?
- JFJocelyn Freeman
(laughs)
- AFAaron Freeman
It's... And it has been. So I started self-development before Aaron and I ended a previous relationship that interestingly, he had all the things I check off from a superficial level. You know, all the things we look- would put on a dating app. You know, what kind of career, they're funny, they like to exercise, all the... Oh, they like this kind of music. So from a superficial level, they met all those criteria. But there's a thing that needs to be added to dating apps. Are you open to self-development? (laughs)
- JFJocelyn Freeman
(laughs)
- AFAaron Freeman
And that was the big thing that we didn't align on. He did blame me and project things onto me that were really things for him to look at. So okay, that relationship wasn't aligned. He wasn't even willing to really look at that. Now, I knew what I wanted. I wanted, yes, all the fun superficial things 'cause we're human beings and we like those things, but I wanted someone who was open to self-development. Now did that mean the moment I met Aaron he was like, "Yeah, sign me up for every seminar you're attending"? No. He was like, "What's self-development? What? I went to college. Is that what you mean?" And it took some time, which would be another story.
- JFJocelyn Freeman
Or uni- or university over there.
- AFAaron Freeman
Yeah, university over there. But basically, we within our relationship look at everything as an op- Like, he mirrors things to me. So he is showing things that are within myself. And so we have created a relationship, and it took years to do this, where we see everything as something we can learn about ourselves. And at the same time, something, there's maybe just a dynamic that's not working. So we're playing off of each other. And what I do triggers this and back and forth. So then, yes, we look internally, but we also, and this is what I think a lot of people don't even know is available, we learned relationship skills. And that's really what we teach. And so we aim to learn and practice relationship skills together so that we aren't constantly triggering each other and just being like, "We'll work on you."
- JFJocelyn Freeman
Yeah.
- AFAaron Freeman
Like, that's not what you want to do, right? (laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
How can you-
- JFJocelyn Freeman
Handle yourself and then come back to me.
- 11:21 – 14:53
Choosing a growth-minded partner (and spotting openness early)
- CWChris Williamson
How can you make sure that the partner you're about to get into a relationship with has the capacity for growth in that way? Either an interest, the ability to get over their own inertia, the ability to not be insulted. Like, do you just say on your first date, do you just force them to read Carol Dweck? Like, is that the solution? You just say, "Right, have you read Carol Dweck? If you have, then we can go out together. If you haven't, then sorry, this isn't going to work."
- JFJocelyn Freeman
Yeah, I really wasn't maybe all that open or that- all that far along, right? I the point that had math equations in it. So to your point, I think, you know, when we get down to the point of, what is life really about? It's about evolution of who you are as a person. And you might say your higher self, your spirit's own involution.So if that's the purpose, then everyone's on that path and it's just gonna be what step are you on? So I think just seeing that a partner is open to realizing that that is really the purpose, and then taking whatever step for them. So Jocelyn invited me to do a personal development seminar, which I was open to, right? I wasn't yet open to reading, like, let's say Wayne Dyer or Neville Goddard about consciousness yet. I am today.
- AFAaron Freeman
Mm-hmm.
- JFJocelyn Freeman
So I think to your point, you can't judge someone's path from the beginning or how fast they'll go. And they might start off slow and go faster and some point in the middle and in relationships, you know, your partner might be in a different speed but, you know, you get on the, the boat together. So I think it's just that initial willingness to maybe say to a partner, "Where do you see you would like to grow?"
- AFAaron Freeman
Mm-hmm.
- JFJocelyn Freeman
And I think just getting on that path of progress and evolution, in whatever area is important to them, I think that always evolves too. Either a spirituality, maybe into professional, and I think just being on the path of progression is really what you're looking for.
- AFAaron Freeman
If I can share a story that will just add onto that, because I couldn't take him from zero to 100, I couldn't be like, "You need to read these ten books and come to these three seminars." So I really looked for, to your question, I looked at him, is he open to the conversations? And so I remember this distinct dinner date, it was probably like even our fourth date, and at the time he went to bars and clubs a lot and drank a lot. Like, there was no self-development on the weekends for him, it was bars. And we were at dinner and he's like, "Oh, do you wanna go? My friend's, we have a table." And all these things. And I just went, "No." And he's like, "What do you mean no?" And I said, "Well, that's not what I desire to do on my Friday night." And so then he, he really got curious about, "What do, well maybe I don't really like to go that much. Why am I going?" And it started this whole conversation about how he was doing it 'cause that's what his friends do, and he just thinks that that's what his, he's keeping his promise by going. And so then we had this conversation about integrity, and I kind of shared with him things I had learned and he was open to it. And that's what I was looking for, was that he was open to those kind of conversations.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah. I don't know what it's like. I've spent a lot of time around a variety of different types of people. Not everyone's growth-minded, some people are more into it than others, but it would be a scary situation for me to get five years into a relationship with someone and find out that they don't have that growth mindset, um, because it's going to make everything so much harder. And, yeah, I, those are the ones... I'm, I, I'm really big into
- 14:53 – 19:39
Emotional triggers: events, meaning, and the amygdala hijack
- CWChris Williamson
revisiting traditions at the moment. I think that we've cast off a lot of wisdom that we've accrued over the last sort of 2,000 to 5,000 years as a civilization, and I'm not, uh, I want people to try and make it work. I don't want people to divorce, I want them to stick together, I want the family to work and all this sort of stuff. But yeah, there are some challenges that are unget-by-able, sadly. Uh, what are emotional triggers?
- JFJocelyn Freeman
Hm.
- CWChris Williamson
Let's talk about them. You've mentioned it a couple of times already.
- AFAaron Freeman
Well, even to that point, right, like relationships are going to reveal your triggers. Whether you're with the perfect partner who me- matches all the things you want, there will be things that happen within the relationship that trigger you, which we would describe as like somebody poking a sensitive spot. Now most people just have their triggered reaction, right? And like they're angry, they're sad, they're, "You shouldn't have done that. I wouldn't feel this way if you didn't do that." And so they make it about the other person. When people have awareness about emotional triggers, it's really poking something inside that wants to be looked at. Okay, wow, where'd that come from? Why did that trigger something in me? And if people, instead of going o- outside, all about you, and looked inwards, there'd be something really powerful that could be shown.
- CWChris Williamson
Hm.
- AFAaron Freeman
Anything more to add, Dad?
- JFJocelyn Freeman
Yeah, and the steps of what it looks like is there's a triggered event. And this can happen, again, in any relationship. There's, in this case with my partner, a expression on the face, a specific word, maybe swearing, bringing up the past, some action, even a tone.
- AFAaron Freeman
Mm-hmm.
- JFJocelyn Freeman
And that, in and of itself, as you probably shared lots of times with your audience, doesn't inherently have any meaning, but it's a trigger because that event elicits some emotion within you. And that, maybe it reminds you of some memory that your mom or dad said to you, or in that moment you make it mean something. So there's some emotion that gets elicited, and then the main problem is that emotion creates an amygdala hijack. Essentially you're unaware of the action that you then take. And that's really sort of the problem with the argument hangover is because you do more damage and you extend the argument hangover because you're unconscious of the then triggered behavior-
- AFAaron Freeman
Mm-hmm.
- JFJocelyn Freeman
... that you take automatically, don't have to even think about it.
- CWChris Williamson
I had Donald Robertson who's a CBT-trained stoic philosopher, so this guy's got the new age and the old age all combined together. And he was talking about how much our judgment is impaired when we're angry.
- JFJocelyn Freeman
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
Um, and he said that anger is one of the worst, uh, impacts that we can have on our judgment, and I'm going to guess that one of the most common emotions that people find when they get emotionally triggered is anger.
- AFAaron Freeman
Oh, it's intoxicating. It releases chemicals in your body and you're not really thinking straight. However, people can train themselves to interrupt it. So it is possible to not do the damage that's normally caused by the triggered behaviors. And it takes practice, just like everything that you teach. You can't just learn something in a book and then be like, "Oh, I tried it one day and it didn't work." Right? It's practice, months and years. And to your point, right, like if, if a couple really is aligned and they even think they're perfect for each other and they both do self-development... We work with a lot of couples who've done years of self-development and they're like, "My partner still triggers me, so are they not the right person then?" No, that's means it's pointing to something within you to look at.... and go at where is this in the past. And, and that's really where, I mean, we're, we just really have transformed.
- JFJocelyn Freeman
Mm-hmm. Yeah. It's powerful in any relationship then, we were talking earlier about you either approach it as a boxing match or, or being a football team, right? Approaching a game or a match. So in those moments, if someone, your friend, a family member comes to you and, and they're-
- AFAaron Freeman
Yeah.
- JFJocelyn Freeman
... triggered, rather than getting so defensive and trying to, to stop their pattern or behavior, "Don't speak to me that way," if you could just pause and say, "Hey, you know, it seem, seems like you're triggered," that's how you start to make that shift from a boxing match to being on the same team-
- AFAaron Freeman
Mm-hmm.
- JFJocelyn Freeman
... you know, in a, in a match together is, "Hey, seems like you're triggered. Is that right?"
- AFAaron Freeman
Mm-hmm.
- JFJocelyn Freeman
"What emotion is there for you?" So you've already stopped the pattern for them, and now you're helping them be introspective of what is the emotion, ideally if you can get to what the event was, and then not just apologize, "I'm so sorry I did that to make you feel that way." The self-realization then says, "What meaning did I give to that event that caused that within me?" Not trying to get your partner to now stop doing all of the triggering events so that you don't get triggered.
- 19:39 – 22:41
De-escalation language and Chris Voss techniques: ‘It seems like…’ and mirroring
- CWChris Williamson
Have you seen Chris Voss's work? Have you read much of that stuff? Yeah. So-
- AFAaron Freeman
We're in a mastermind with him.
- JFJocelyn Freeman
Love him. Love him. Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Amazing. So-
- AFAaron Freeman
Yeah. He's amazing.
- CWChris Williamson
... he came on the show, uh, a couple of months ago, and obviously-
- AFAaron Freeman
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... he's got that, um, "It seems like there's something on your mind."
- AFAaron Freeman
Yeah.
- JFJocelyn Freeman
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
"It seems like there's something on your mind. It feels like there's something that you need to talk about," like that.
- AFAaron Freeman
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
And you don't realize until you speak to someone like him, who's obviously an absolute elite of communication, you don't realize just how disarming that sentence is. It-
- AFAaron Freeman
It's amazing.
- JFJocelyn Freeman
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
"It seems like there's something on your mind." And you just realize, like, it's not judgmental. It's not even, "What's wrong?" Like, "What's wrong?" has ev- everyone's had that asked by a partner.
- AFAaron Freeman
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
And there's, there is a, a fair bit of baggage that kind of comes along with that. Like, "It seems like there's something on your mind." And you just go like, "Uh," and you just seem to open up. It's such a softening sentence.
- AFAaron Freeman
It really is.
- JFJocelyn Freeman
It's, it's powerful that you bring that up too, because one thing we talk about in our book i- and you talking about archetypes, well, we have four communication personality types of you and your partner, which then leads to 10 different dynamics. But often a, an assertive partner will be with a more reserved partner, so maybe one that's not speaking up as much. And so this conversation can be, "Well, that's great, but my partner doesn't share." So to your point, Chris Voss has a technique called mirroring, and so for the reserved partners, if you mirror, and then for those of you that haven't read the book, if you just repeat the last one to three words that your partner says, then for instance, maybe they come to you and say, "I can't believe you did that." "Did that?" And you raise the inflection of your voice, that person is gonna basically automatically take it deeper. So it's a powerful place, though-
- AFAaron Freeman
Mm-hmm.
- JFJocelyn Freeman
... for those that are assertive and reserved to use this mirroring to help your partner go a little bit deeper with it.
- AFAaron Freeman
Well, and to that point, 'cause, and I love that Chris Voss, like we have so much aligned with him, is communication, because I'm sure so many people in relationships identify communication is the biggest challenge. I mean, we, we've done over 44 couples workshops, and the number one reason couples attend is communication, communication. But here's what's interesting, and I'm sure you might run into this or already have in your dating experiences, even if you meet someone who's doing self-development and they're like, "Yeah, I'm really working on my communication," they get frustrated. Like, "I don't think you're, that's really working on your communication." Like, "The way you're doing it is not right." And so then they can kind of judge the way they're communicating. So we say communication is not one size fits all, and that's why we created the four communication personality types, because different approaches are needed for different types, different tempos, different, uh, how much time each person-
- JFJocelyn Freeman
Mm-hmm.
- AFAaron Freeman
... needs to process. So I'd say for those of, who are similar to you who are wanting to attract that great partner, is to realize that they still might be working on being a great communicator. It might not just look exactly like you.
- JFJocelyn Freeman
Mm-hmm.
- 22:41 – 24:11
Four communication personality types (assertive/reserved × flexible/inflexible)
- CWChris Williamson
What are the different types and how should people utilize them?
- AFAaron Freeman
Yeah. So there are, it's in a four quadrant space, so it'd be like a normal two by two grid, right? And you fall into one of the four. So there's assertive inflexible, assertive flexible, reserved inflexible, and reserved flexible. So assertiveness to reserved, some people go, "Oh, I'm assertive 'cause I talk a lot." That's not true assertiveness in the sense that we mean. Assertiveness is the openness and willingness to share your thoughts, needs, emotions proactively. So not in a reactive manner once you're already upset. It's asserting yourself ahead of time before it's even become a challenge. More reserved people, it doesn't mean that they never will open up. It's more so that they usually take more time to process their thoughts and emotions. They need to be asked in a different way. They need it to in a, even not be just sitting kind of with all the attention on them. So that's the assertive to reserved scale. And then flexibility to inflexibility measures how open and willing you are to adjust your perspective-
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- AFAaron Freeman
... your behaviors within the relationship based on what's needed in that moment. Like different seasons, different seasons of a relationship kind of in a way call for different perspectives and behaviors. And so that's flexibility to inflexibility.
- CWChris Williamson
And what does that mean for people? How should they utilize those with regards to their communication?
- AFAaron Freeman
Well, let's do our example-
- JFJocelyn Freeman
Mm-hmm.
- AFAaron Freeman
... of our two types.
- 24:11 – 27:14
Making mismatched styles work: heads-ups, timeouts, and staying engaged
- JFJocelyn Freeman
Well, so Jocelyn (laughs) , Jocelyn is, and when we talk about like assertive inflexible, you could probably fall into a different type in a work setting or with family and friends, and even different aspects of your romantic relationship. So we have people look at when you are triggered, when you have emotion come up, what do you sort of default to?
- AFAaron Freeman
Mm-hmm.
- JFJocelyn Freeman
So Jocelyn's really is assertive inflexible, where mine is reserved inflexible, to where if Jocelyn immediately shares something that, and I get defensive, I'm going to more so shut down.... I'm going to pretty much like stop talking. If we're driving in the car, I might look out the window. And though I felt like that was better than reacting back, raising my voice, saying whatever came to my mind, I initially thought that was better. But here it comes to find out Jocelyn feels pushed away. She feels isolated and it, it disconnects us, it separates us.
- AFAaron Freeman
Mm-hmm.
- JFJocelyn Freeman
So, what I learned for me being a reserve type is I don't have to become assertive, but I want to at least engage into the conversation by saying something to Jocelyn like, "Hey, Jocelyn, I'm, I'm realizing I'm, I'm triggered and I'd like a few minutes to process my emotions. You know-"
- AFAaron Freeman
Mm-hmm.
- JFJocelyn Freeman
"... can we come back to this in five minutes?"
- AFAaron Freeman
Mm-hmm.
- JFJocelyn Freeman
So I'm not feeling pressured by Jocelyn to stay in the conversation, say what I'm feeling, talk before I'm ready. But I need to start to share where I'm at so that we can stay engaged into a conversation and, and come back to it at a time that's going to be more suited for a reserve.
- AFAaron Freeman
And then on the assertive partner, one of the mistakes I used to make being with a, a reserve partner was, "If I wanna talk about it, I'm gonna bring it up right now."
- JFJocelyn Freeman
(laughs)
- AFAaron Freeman
And that would blindside him. And because he needs more time to process his thoughts and emotions, he would shut down, which would then frustrate me. So then I'd overcompensate even more and it would then become this power struggle and turn into a disagreement. So now what I do, this is just one of the, the ways it's impactful is I give him a heads up if there's something we're gonna talk about that's actually important. I mean, and I know it seems like it's so simple, but it makes all the difference. W- if we're gonna talk about s- having kids, instead of me blindsiding him on a hike, "Hey, I'd like to talk about starting a family, and I know you like to think about things ahead of time." Mm-hmm.
- JFJocelyn Freeman
"Would you feel up for discussing it on our hike this weekend?" Anything. It could be finances, it could be your intimacy. Even if I wanna talk about our relationship, I don't say, "Hey, we need to talk right now about something that happened." I give him a heads up about it and hasn't it made a difference? Totally. Yeah. I don't, I don't feel blindsided.
- AFAaron Freeman
Mm-mm.
- JFJocelyn Freeman
When I feel blindsided, what else is there for me to do except be defensive? So we're already, again, in the boxing match rather than being on the same team.
- AFAaron Freeman
Which type do you think you fall into? The assertive inflexible, assertive flexible, reserved inflexible, or reserved flexible?
- CWChris Williamson
I'd say probably assertive inflexible. Um...
- AFAaron Freeman
Okay.
- CWChris Williamson
Although, if any of my exes are watching, then just comment below and let me know. That'll be interesting.
- JFJocelyn Freeman
(laughs)
- AFAaron Freeman
(laughs)
- 27:14 – 30:49
Oversharing vs. useful sharing: reflect first, then communicate what matters
- CWChris Williamson
Um, th- they're not gonna be watching. Uh, one of the things that I've been interested in is how much individuals should share in the context of couple dialogue. So, I understand that becoming emotionally triggered with things and opening up about the way that you feel, and also warning someone that something's going to come up and all the rest of it, there has to be a glass ceiling on how much you can break the fourth wall around the inner workings of your own mind. And speaking from personal experience, when I feel like I have nothing left to find out about the person, that there's nothing new and nothing spontaneous occurring, uh, and also the fact that a lot of what goes on within our heads, we may say, "Here's a thing that I'm feeling." But 10 minutes later or 15 minutes later it'd be like, "Yeah, actually that just dissipated. I probably shouldn't have brought that up." Is there... How, how can people know when they're oversharing, essentially? You know, they might think, "Right. Relationship skills. Brilliant. Jocelyn and Aaron have said, 'I'm gonna develop my relationship skills.'" How do they not overshare?
- AFAaron Freeman
Hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
Hmm.
- AFAaron Freeman
So, what I'm hearing in that is in a way, like, do I need to share every thought and emotion that I have? It's an interesting question. What we would really do, 'cause we have practices where even though we are so open in our communication, every single morning we have time just with ourselves. So, we meditate, we journal af- this is after exercise, and we process a lot of what's there. Now, do we share every single thought? No, I don't think so. I think if it's actually important t- of... We have a series of questions that you may have seen that have you kind of clarify, is this something actually important to me versus is this a blip? You know, we would call it. Is it just a blip moment? So, there's some great questions to kind of be able to reflect. So, if it isn't a blip, meaning it really isn't that significant, it was just a momentary thing, and it's actually important, we will share it. But we definitely reflect before we share a lot with each other. Like, we really have worked to not just reactively bring something up in the heat of a moment. What would you say?
- JFJocelyn Freeman
Well, I think so far in this conversation talking about emotional triggers, it can seem like we're talking about things from the past. You know, healing and evolving from there. But now we're missing basically the point of being in a relationship is to create, to imagine the future that isn't yet, that we are stepping into and creating by being in a relationship. So, I think to your point, do I need to share every emotion and feeling? At some point, you've really cleared up the past, so now you're free to create anything you want. Y- you know, the nature of consciousness, the nature of being alive, it's infinite. So...
- AFAaron Freeman
Mm-hmm.
- JFJocelyn Freeman
When we talk about a space of infinite possibilities, you can get excitement, you can be... have high anticipation. Do we wanna travel? What kind of experiences do we wanna have? Do we wanna be influential? Do we wanna start a business, start a family? You know, now you're into the imagination of the whole purpose of why you're together. And, you know, looking at consciousness, our outer world is actually a reflection of our inner world, of what we are imagining, what we are already feeling as already being done. That's a really powerful, exciting conversation to be imagining with your partner, which once you clear up the past, that's where we want people to live all the time.
- CWChris Williamson
Absolutely. I mean, very much our sh- our thoughts shape the world around us. We don't exist in the world. We exist in the mental model that our brain has constructed of the world.
- AFAaron Freeman
Mm-hmm.
- 30:49 – 38:12
Turning conflict into fuel: reframing memory, timeouts, and the peak-end rule
- CWChris Williamson
And the more baggage and extra bits that you don't need, the more drag is on that mental model. The more cognitive biases you have, the less rationality, the less balance, all that sort of stuff. Um, so I mean, that, that sounds like a wonderful situation to be in, but I imagine that...... you both need to work through an awful lot before you get there. And inevitably, that's going to involve going through conflict. So, how can you turn that conflict into a good thing?
- AFAaron Freeman
Mm-hmm. Hmm. Well, I love that- Right? ... 'cause we, we didn't come to each other, as you heard, like all shiny-
- CWChris Williamson
Ready-made.
- AFAaron Freeman
... and like, "I, I transformed everything!" Right?
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- AFAaron Freeman
And maybe you will show up for a partner that way, but I would bet you that there would be new things that come up for you.
- CWChris Williamson
Jocelyn, I'm perfect. Don't worry about that. That wouldn't
- NANarrator
(laughs)
- AFAaron Freeman
(laughs) I know, you've already worked through it all. So, conflict, yes, we see that as something that really is showing something inside of us. And we also, so we have this whole five-hour process to truly reconcile after a conflict. Be- because just saying, "I'm sorry," is not enough. It doesn't truly repair things afterwards. And one of the five Rs that I think is important to your question is the fifth R, which is to reconcile the conflict as an opportunity together. So, we actually just had a session with a couple right before this, and there was something that came up between them the last couple of weeks. And how she remembered it was, "That was a bummer, that was frustrating, it got us off course-"
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- AFAaron Freeman
"... slowed our momentum. We were doing so well before." And there was a lot of discouraged feeling in that. And so we said, "Okay, let's change the way you remember it. Let, let's reconcile the situation as an opportunity." And I'm telling you, it's, it's totally different. After our disagreements, we always go, "Great, what did we learn about ourselves as individuals? What did we learn about our relationship and what our relationship needs?" Because you may or may not have heard this before, but we see our relationship as a separate entity from who we are. So, after that conflict, what did we now learn our relationship needs? And then also, how are we better, how are we stronger? And when we change the way we remember it, we actually saw the possibility that was available. Conflicts aren't a problem, they really create a whole new possibility.
- CWChris Williamson
Hmm. That's interesting, and also ties in with a lot of what I believe around the way that we act as humans. Like, the fact is that nothing is really good or bad, it's all just a learning experience.
- AFAaron Freeman
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
And if you lean into the discomfort as a feature of life, not a bug, you are going to encounter things that are going to go wrong. You're going-
- AFAaron Freeman
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
... to encounter catastrophe, both chosen and unchosen, both by your, uh, doings and by other people's doings. Um, and the only way that you really can go through that is to think, "Okay, what did I learn from that?" And it's one of the beauties of trying to cultivate curiosity, that if you're-
- AFAaron Freeman
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
... if you're interested in what's coming next, you're very rarely scared about what's going to happen. You're just constantly thinking, "Oh, how interesting. Isn't this..." Like even the level of equanimity that I think we all should aspire to get toward is that when you sense an emotion, you don't attach yourself to the emotion, but you question, "Wow, how interesting that I'm feeling this. Why?"
- AFAaron Freeman
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
"Isn't that cool?" Like, isn't, the, the sensation of nervousness, "I've got this sensation in my stomach and I can feel myself getting hot up towards my cheeks," and, you know, all of the different things that you feel. Um, but it takes an awful lot of work to get there, as you say. Um, I also think as well, the reconciliation thing ties in with the peak-end rule. Are you familiar with this from psychology?
- AFAaron Freeman
Mm. I do.
- CWChris Williamson
So, Ben Hardy, who's a mutual, a mutual friend of ours-
- AFAaron Freeman
Yep. Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
... um, he, he talks about this. So, the peak-end effect is a Daniel Kahneman study. And what they realized was that the two biggest retainers in terms of memory from any event are the most emotionally intense and the end.
- AFAaron Freeman
(laughs) Hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
So-
- AFAaron Freeman
Hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
... they put people through endoscopies, which are quite uncomfortable, where you get a camera inside of you, and they were able to give people a little roller where they could rate out of 10 how much pain they were in.
- AFAaron Freeman
Hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
And then they asked them to retrospectively look at how much pain they had been in after the event. So, during the event, they're moving this camera around, and basically, the more movement equates to more discomfort. So, they have, um, two things, two controls that they can work out fairly easily, like, "Look, this is movement which should equal pain." In one of them, the pain went to a higher peak, but lasted for longer and then dipped down at the end. And in the other one, it was fairly flat and peaked and then tailed off and, and sort of finished as soon as it was done. What they found was that in the version, the iteration of the study where people had had the procedure elongated, but the elongation was at a much lower level, they retrospectively, uh, classified it as being lower pain-
- 38:12 – 41:33
Pre-conflict agreements: set guardrails to prevent escalation
- CWChris Williamson
So what about... L- l- let's talk about before conflict. Obviously, the- the best thing to do presumably would be to not have arguments or to try and r- limit the conflicts that we do have.
- AFAaron Freeman
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
But if we're... If it's going to happen, what can we do before we have a conflict?
- AFAaron Freeman
Well... Yeah, go ahead.
- JFJocelyn Freeman
Yeah. You know, to that point, it's not necessarily the conflict, right? It's again in how we see it.
- AFAaron Freeman
Mm-hmm.
- JFJocelyn Freeman
We would say the goal would be to shorten the argument hangover and keep it from escalating to the levels of either doing more damage or just pitting you against each other. So just again going to the sports analogy, it's like, well, maybe we'll be better if we have less conflicts, meaning we have less tough matches. But that's just not the case. The- the tougher matches you have with an opponent, the better that you get. So I wouldn't necessarily say it's about reducing the conflict as much as those things that I had just mentioned. And- and ways you can do that, it's so simple, but just having agreements. So we'll link back to the emotional triggers. Again, with any relationship, it could be a son or daughter, it could be a friend, another family member- family member, coworker, and then spouse, if there's something you notice in that relationship that you often get triggered by, what you want to do is come to them and say, "Hey, you know what? I realize I often get triggered by you saying X."
- AFAaron Freeman
You saying Mm-hmm.
- JFJocelyn Freeman
"Now, I know I'm giving that meaning, but it would really help me if we could create an agreement that you wouldn't bring that up when (laughs) ... when we have an argument." And then just pick, like, four of these, because I think four is reasonable. There's not too many to remember. And then when that argument happens, you can remind each other of the agreements that you had. This will keep it from escalating, doing more damage, or pitting you against each other, which would ultimately lengthen that argument hangover. And it'll make it easier for you to reconcile the conflict into the opportunity for strength, for understanding. You know, going back to Chris Voss and empathy, it's all a game of empathy. And the more we can understand one another, just the better connections we have with life.
- CWChris Williamson
What are some of the examples of things that people might say they don't want to be brought up?
- JFJocelyn Freeman
Mm-hmm.
- AFAaron Freeman
Hmm. Well, so the agreements can really be, you know, based on what your triggered behaviors are. So I had a tendency of yelling and wanting to bring up the past a lot. "Oh, this is exactly like this, and he... I need... he... I need to connect all the dots." So we have an agreement of no raising our voice. So actually the moment that we start to raise our voice, we remind each other, "Hey, that's not constructive here." And then also no bringing up the past is one. We also cannot do any name-calling. And also...
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- JFJocelyn Freeman
Yeah, so for the reserved...
- CWChris Williamson
Such a... (laughs) Such a good one.
- JFJocelyn Freeman
(laughs) The reserved, I noticed that to really benefit both of us, I'm gonna agree not to shut down and, like, say nothing, you know, remove my attention or energy from that conversation, and-
- AFAaron Freeman
Leaving the room.
- JFJocelyn Freeman
... and in with that would be also, like, turning my back and- and just leaving. More... A more obvious one, but for me it's really speaking up and just saying either I'm triggered or I'm feeling something and making some sort of request. So, simply put, the agreement for me is not to shut down.
- 41:33 – 55:07
During and after fights: listen for emotion, address passive-aggression, reconnect fast
- CWChris Williamson
What about arguments? We're in the argument, how can we have better arguments?
- AFAaron Freeman
Yeah. So now you're alrea- you're in the during, which you... Again, you're a human being, so no matter how much conscious work you do, your partner might trigger you. So what I would do besides what we talked about with the agreements if you're already in that disagreement is to learn how to be a better listener. And what unfortunately people do is when their partner is triggered, they're really just listening to the superficial answers-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- AFAaron Freeman
... that their partner is giving, the literal words. And you may have seen in our book we have three columns: what it looks like to not be listening at all, what it is to just hear, and then what is truly listening. So not hearing at all would be that he shares an emotion. So we're in an argument and he says... Make up a statement here.
- JFJocelyn Freeman
I can't believe you just said that.
- AFAaron Freeman
Well, I didn't just say that. You're totally misunderstanding.
- JFJocelyn Freeman
That's even an agreement, "I can't believe you just broke that agreement."
- AFAaron Freeman
So I wasn't listening at... I basically wasn't listening at all, right? I dismissed... So not listening at all is being dismissive, invalidating, that's not correct.
- JFJocelyn Freeman
You're just pretty much listening to that voice in your head-
- AFAaron Freeman
Mm-hmm.
- JFJocelyn Freeman
... of what you agree with, what you don't agree with, what you can justify, evidence that you have. (laughs)
- AFAaron Freeman
So then if I were to take that same statement that he said and actually j- or only hear, I'd be like, "No, that's... but that's not what I said."
- JFJocelyn Freeman
Mm-hmm.
- AFAaron Freeman
So I didn't react as much, but I'm, like, saying, "No, that's not true." So I only listen to the words. If I was truly listening, I could say back, "Oh, did something I say hurt you?" So listening is about, how can I empathize? I'm not just liter- listening to the literal words my partner is saying, I'm listening for the emotion they're trying to communicate.... 'cause our partner will often say things that seem like they're just logical, but there's some emotion that's trying to be communicated right underneath it. But we aren't trained to be good listeners. We're really only trained to be hearers. And y- this is what really I think I worked on a lot, was realizing that listening is not a passive activity.
- JFJocelyn Freeman
Mm.
- AFAaron Freeman
You're not just automatically listening to your partner, even in times of conflict. You likely are hearing things, but it's going through your filter and it's going through the, "Do I agree? Do I disagree? Do I need to defend myself?" That whole filter. Truly listening takes so much attention, so much, like, awareness and presence, and most people don't even practice that. Like how can I listen so purposefully right now that I'm actually hearing the emotion that's being conveyed?
- JFJocelyn Freeman
Well, even further, that you... Empathy, like Chris Voss would say, empathy is feeling... Well, s- technically sympathy is feeling with them. Empathy is actually feeling in them, which a whole other conversation, but you're actually feeling what they're feeling, saying, "Wow, it really sounds like you're upset. It sounds like you're really angry. You know, tell me more about that." It's really kinda like getting to the black swan, as Chris would say.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm. What about people who are passive-aggressive? This is me speaking from personal experience.
- JFJocelyn Freeman
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
Um, not, not as the passive-aggressive one, at least I don't think I am, but that triggers in me... Passive-aggressiveness triggers in me s- something from the seventh circle of Dante's Hell, uh, a- and also seems to be a little bit of a, a catchall for stopping productive conversation.
- AFAaron Freeman
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Because it's- it's both dismissive, but aggressive. It's not engaging, but it's also kind of leaving... It's like curling a turd up in the middle of the room and then leaving it there and being like, "This is just what I'm gonna leave you with."
- AFAaron Freeman
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Have you got any strategies for how people can deal with a passive-aggressive partner?
- JFJocelyn Freeman
Well, one quick thing before you go. It's just great to identify that's most likely from a reserve type of partner. So just even categorizing yourself into the archetype, reserves, probably inflexibles, those that have not been sharing, you got something built up, it's wanting to get expressed, but because you're more reserved, it's gonna be like-
- AFAaron Freeman
Mm-hmm.
- JFJocelyn Freeman
... "I'm just gonna leave it on the floor."
- AFAaron Freeman
Mm-hmm.
- JFJocelyn Freeman
And then you deal with it.
- AFAaron Freeman
So of course there is the partner that is passive-aggressive and them in a calm state bringing it up to them and being like, "Hey, I noticed there's this pattern that happens. Is that something you're open to looking at?" Right? So that person would ideally be open to looking at where that being passive-aggressive comes from. Then there's to what you said, if you're the one that's with the passive-aggressive partner, then what you could say is, "Hey, it sounds like there's actually something else you want to communicate-"
Episode duration: 55:07
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Transcript of episode 2XJ2hg667sI
