EVERY SPOKEN WORD
110 min read · 21,624 words- 0:00 – 2:29
How to Live Well in the Present
- CWChris Williamson
What does it mean to live free and die well?
- JLJohn Lovell
Sure. So it's wrapped up in our whole warrior poet ethos that's living for higher purpose, being ready to sacrifice in the defense of others. Ultimately, to live well in the present, you have to really start with the end in mind. Uh, lots of folks just go through life in an extremely reactionary manner. Things happen, the tyranny of the urgent comes up, and before you know it, all of your waking hours and even your kind of off-hours are spent stressing about stuff. Though if you were given a death diagnosis, you know, you are terminally ill, much of the stuff that we droll on with every single day would immediately sift to the edges of our attention as not important. And what can happen in the tyranny of the urgent is the most important stuff gets shuffled to the back. Being able to die well means that you lived a life that was worthy of your calling, so to speak. And in so doing, uh, y- you're able to live well with, uh, kind of that end in mind. And so, uh, in my estimation, having faced death, you know, many different times, it really allowed me to focus on what did I, what I wanted to do in life. And so it turns out that you'll die the exact same way that you live, whether that's poorly or well.
- CWChris Williamson
I love the tyranny of the urgent. I absolutely love that. I think it's- it's so accurate for how many people live their lives. There's this meme that I saw floating around a while ago that said, um, "Adulthood is just one series of weeks after the next saying, 'After this week it'll calm down,' and then you die."
- JLJohn Lovell
Oh, it's such a trap. You know, folks think of like, "Man, uh, m- my 9:00 to 5:00 sucks and, uh, if- if I can just get through all the chores and the tasks, and I fix up the house, and I pay that off, and I work, and, you know, ultimately one day I'll have a nest egg big enough. And then when I'm 65 years old, I'm gonna really start living. That's when it'll get really good." Uh, and, uh, what you don't realize is that is overrated once you even get there. Uh, you look back of like, no, no, let's start living well right now. All there is is today. Y- you're not promised tomorrow. And so I don't want to delay living and having a meaningful impact on the world around me for hoping that one day I can start living right.
- 2:29 – 10:27
The Closest John Has Come to Death
- JLJohn Lovell
- CWChris Williamson
You mentioned that you've faced death. Uh, you were in the armed forces for a long while. You did a number of tours and you were in some kinetic, uh, encounters, I guess you could say. What was the closest that you think you came to death during your active service?
- JLJohn Lovell
Uh, I wasn't in, I wasn't in a long while. Uh, I did a, I packed a whole bunch of combat into a shorter period of time. So I did five combat tours, but I jumped around and did a whole bunch of stuff in my life. Closest I've gotten to death, who knows? I was in a near ambush. You're not supposed to live through those. Those are really, really awful. I got in a far ambush as well, um-
- CWChris Williamson
What's an- what's the difference between a near and a far ambush?
- JLJohn Lovell
Uh, well, proximity, but a near ambush is supposed to be 35 meters and in. It's basically hand grenade range. And so the idea is you're mov- m- you're moving, whether it's on foot or through vehicle, we happen to be, um, a stripped-down Humvee, so we didn't have doors, we didn't have ceilings or anything, no armor, so we were able to, rangers jump out and in a moment be ready to fight. So we didn't like all the armor stuff. It just ends up being just a- a- a metal coffin to us. But we got hit. I was the lead driver, as kind of like a fire-breathing team leader, you want somebody who is gonna react well under pressure. And so that was kind of a nice position because I'm target number one in something like a near ambush. If you take out the lead driver, all the vehicles stop, and then you kill the- the rear driver and then it's just a- a- a massacre, a kill box. And so your job in an ambush is to punch out, and that's what we did. We were able to punch out, had like a 50-cal ammo from up top, came out of its, uh, ca- uh, came out of its ammo box. It's like hit me in the head and I'm supposed to drive, but some RPG or IED blew out my front right tire, and so it takes two arms to rip my steering wheel over. And I'm going down this road, which is really just this horrible dried-up creek bed that just... I mean, you have to really plan your route to figure out how you're not gonna high center somewhere. And so it was just a mess, and this 50-cal ammo's hitting me in the helmet and I'm- I'm wanting to get in the fight and shoot at the same time, but I'm supposed to punch out. And so, man, it was a mess. It could have been that or it could have been, uh... You know, and that- that sucked. Um, you never know how many things where you were kind of in enemy crosshairs and nothing went wrong, uh, wh- they could have shot you, but th- you didn't, and so you don't really count any of that stuff. Uh, gunfights, raiding terrorist training camps are, uh, are, um, one of my very first, uh, and closest interactions that I ever got into, it's like room-on-room gunfight. And, uh, that was real close. And after, you know, coming through a doorway and, uh, putting this joker down, uh, we looked and right over my upper left shoulder were SKS, uh, bullet holes in the wall. That- that one, that one's kind of... That improved my prayer life, so. (laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs) Fuck. Yeah, um, I- I've always been fascinated by this. In scenarios like that, what is the balance of fear or being scared compared with a more tense encounter where it's more protracted, maybe it's at night, maybe you're creeping up on, uh, an enemy location, maybe you're moving from room to room? I- I- I'm always interested in this because I think when people think about that being scary, I'm not sure if that's an accurate representation of the flood of hormones that your body's going to dump into you. I would imagine that that's just kind of hectic and- a- and intense, but there will be more scary situations you get into that are less kinetic immediately.
- JLJohn Lovell
Great question. I wish I could take fear and put it in this polished, nice box, where it's kinda like, "Here it is." But truth be told, i- it's a lot of, uh, lunging forward and doing well, and then all of a sudden, being set back, and you're kinda like, "I thought I was over this." Because even looking back, I remember a couple different freezing points, where the, the terror was so stark, I just locked up. I couldn't move. And it coulda happened that something had gone bad in that moment, and I would've had to carry that my whole life. Thankfully, you know, those moments, uh, th- though I remember two different freezing poi- points where it was just so horr- horrifying, I couldn't really handle it. I think, you know, in my head, it was like I was... My legs were concrete for minutes at a time. It was probably just a few seconds, and I was able to kinda get out of that and press forward. Other times, I've been able to just... I shoulda been scared, but I really wasn't. Sometimes I got just pissed, like, "You try to kill me? How..." Ugh.
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- JLJohn Lovell
And you just go to work. "How dare you try to kill me? I'm gonna kill you back." And so sometimes it's rage. Uh, other times, and this is the best one, is it's not horrible fear, and it's not rage. It's just calm, cold math. And that, that's where I really wanted to live and work, and that was really the goal, is, though the world is on fire and falling apart around you and you're pretty sure you're about to eat it, you're just gonna do the right thing and make the next right decision, and calm, cool water's on the surface and raging, uh, hard, underneath. And so I want cold, hard math. And that's really, I think, the most ideal goal.
- CWChris Williamson
Would you mind telling us those stories that you said when you froze?
- JLJohn Lovell
One is... Well, see, one is kinda stupid, 'cause it was a nothing mission for me, in that there was hot stuff happening around. Like I had my buddy, had his leg blown off, and w- we were raiding a terrorist training camp, and I was just coming t- kind of the edge of this ravine. There was tall grass. Uh, we had just come in on some birds, and a rotary wing that had just dropped us like half a klick out, and we hustled over, and, uh, my night vision's fogging up and whatnot, and we're looking out and, you know, I'm, I'm doing pretty well, but then somebody says, "Hey, they're, uh, they're climbing up the cliffs." Maybe someone said it, maybe I imagined it, but I realized as if, just the way the terrain was, if they kinda climbed up and popped up, we'd be face to face, you know, just... And I wouldn't be able to see them coming. It was just too much noise and fire and smoke and guns and... Uh, you just couldn't hear a lot. And yeah, I realized, "Man, I'm really blind here, and if I am to sneak out a little bit farther th- so I have visibility down, I'm gonna be perfectly back-lit, uh, because of the illumination." And so I knew better tactics than to make that mistake.
- CWChris Williamson
It's a very good target.
- JLJohn Lovell
So it just caught me off guard. Yeah, y- you'll be, you'll be skyline, you'll be silhouetted, and so you gotta be able to read lighting conditions, even under NODs, night vision. And so I knew enough to be like, "Man, e- if, if you, uh, skyline yourself right there in the ravine, anybody in there is gonna see me and light me up like a Christmas tree." And so I was just kinda stuck in an awkward place. I'm like, I hated my terrain, I hated my position, and we already got dudes screaming, and we got a medevac going over, but it wasn't... I should've been able to do better than that, for so whatever reason, it just freaked me out. I just, I couldn't handle it in the moment, you know? And I'd handled other stuff that was scarier before that and after that. And so here, here's a lesson I learned, is no one ever masters fear. Every single day, you gotta get up, and there, fear will manifest itself in a million different ways. Uh, there, it was kind of gun fighting, and it's more sexy and glamorous to some of the viewers. But I mean, like, hey, man, getting out and getting in a small business, that's scary. Confronting your, you know, friend about something or having an uncomfortable conversation or risking being canceled or losing your job, there's all kinds of ways that fear can come up and get you. But I've s- I've performed everywhere on the scale of absolute hero and absolute zero. Um, and just because you have performed bravely in the past is no guarantee you will per- um, you will behave bravely in the future. Every day, you gotta keep earning it, which sucks, 'cause I'd like to be like, "Yep, I have arrived. I'm amazing." And it's just not true. It
- 10:27 – 15:06
Transferable Skills from Military Combat
- JLJohn Lovell
sucks.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah, I think a lot of people who see guys like yourself with, you know, a, a, a heroic past serving the country would presume that, well, he's been in firefights. He's been shot at. There's been bullets a, a couple of inches above his shoulder and across from his head. Therefore, the normal vicissitudes of life, they're just gonna, is gonna be water off a duck's back. How much have you found the bravery or your ability to overcome challenges and fear and freezing in those scenarios crossover to fears of being canceled? You've got a, a huge, huge YouTube channel. The, you're in risk of losing that if you say the wrong thing. You've got the stresses of coordinating a team. You've got concerns, am I saying it right? Am I saying it right? Is this serving the audience in the right way? Just how different is that?
- JLJohn Lovell
It's different and it's not. Uh, fear management and being able to inoculate yourself against, uh, all, all the fear stuff, that's all usable stuff. But a lot of vets get out and they don't make the jump. Case in point, I have a buddy had 19 or 20 combat tours. I had five. And that's a lot. I did a lot. He did 19 with Special Forces. It's like, this guy's a hero. A lot of guys are, they know one thing very well, and, uh, you know, it, it's a terrifying and scary thing to most, but it, it's familiar. You know, th- this is what we do. We go out and hunt bad guys and they hunt us back and we see how it goes. Uh, but they're very terrified to get out in the civilian world. They don't know how to do just basic, some basic life. So there was this one guy, um, Special Forces guy I'm talking about, he w- he got out in the civilian world, he's finally done, and, uh, he was, uh, wrestling with this contract, and he couldn't do it, and he listened, like, "John, I, I can run toward gunfire, but contracts freak me out." That's a quote.And so, I mean, fear, just 'cause you've done well in one sector doesn't necessarily mean that you're gonna be able to effectively and seamlessly pull that over into all other areas. You know, y- you have some grizzly, uh, soldiers not afraid of Al-Qaeda terrified to speak to girls. And girls are scary, in their defense, you know?
- CWChris Williamson
That is true.
- JLJohn Lovell
You know how that's gonna go. Girls are scary, so I'm not castin' shade. I've been married 16 years. I love my wife. I lead my wife. I'm in charge. But she is, uh, she can be scary, so... (laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs) Yeah. Okay. I, I think that's really important to remember, that you have to earn it every single day.
- JLJohn Lovell
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
You know, there are new challenges that are going to face you, and you can't rest on your laurels. Uh, you know, I, I've noticed periods in my life where I've started to take my foot off the gas. And I've started... It's not even foot on the gas necessarily. It's being less intentional. I think that's the, the, the main pre-determinant. That's the lead measure of what happens. And the lagging measure is, "My sleep's off." Or-
- JLJohn Lovell
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... "I don't feel so good," or, "I'm not eating well," or, "My relationships are suffering," or, uh, "I'm not showing up on the show as well as I should do." The lead measure is not being intentional. It, and, and a lot of the time, that is borne out of fear. "Uh, okay, well, what if this goes wrong? What if I look stupid?"
- JLJohn Lovell
That's right.
- CWChris Williamson
"What if I, what if I..." Whatever. There was this, um... We recently hit a million subs on the channel, and I did this video, um, sort of reacting to it live. And it was a little bit emotional, but then I felt silly about it being emotional. And I thought, "Oh well, well, you know, it's just a number on a screen. This is lame, getting emotional about, you know, hitting this subscriber milestone," even though it's been, you know, tens of thousands of hours over half a decade, and started in my living room, and now it's this, you know, this big thing, and we get to travel all over the world, and it's a dream life, and I brought one of my best friends along with me and all this stuff. But it still felt silly. And I was like, "Okay, well that, that's another opportunity to try and lean into fear." It's not the same sort of fear of being shot at in a Humvee, but it's, it was fucking terrifying, you know, to think, "Oh, I'm gonna put this video out, and what if people are gonna laugh at me? What if people think that it's stupid?" Um, so yeah. Every single day, there are different challenges. And I, I think you're right. You can't just, um, rely on the momentum or the inertia of having previously been brave and presuming that that's gonna carry you through things in future.
- JLJohn Lovell
Well, hey, congratulations. You turned a million. That is a big accomplishment. I think that is-
- CWChris Williamson
Thank you.
- JLJohn Lovell
... absolutely awesome. And I, I didn't know, uh, much about your channel. Now I'm a follower. I am tuning in. I like your style, bro. You're all right. And so-
- CWChris Williamson
Hell yeah.
- JLJohn Lovell
... I'll be tuning in, bro.
- CWChris Williamson
Got the seal of approval.
- 15:06 – 23:01
Why Does the World Need Warriors Today?
- CWChris Williamson
Okay, so-
- JLJohn Lovell
Good times.
- CWChris Williamson
... uh, why do you think the world is in need of warriors? At the moment, not everybody needs to be in active duty. We don't have anywhere near as many kinetic a- altercations across the planet, you know, unless you're Russian or Ukrainian. America seems to be pretty peaceful at the moment. Why, why do we even need warriors?
- JLJohn Lovell
Right. And so, uh, I know the military recruiting is 25% down off its mark, and so the military would say, "We need warriors," but I, when I use the word warrior, I don't mean everybody needs to wear multicam and get nods. E- E- Sidebar, multicam is really fun, yay for guns, get lots of that stuff and all right, but really, I think warrior i- has to do with more of the heart of a man and who he is. I think men are made to be strong, and we're supposed to be protectors and providers. And those warrior-like attributes are absolutely critical to be successful as a man. It's part of your calling. I'm supposed to be able to be a leader, and bold, and fearless, and, and courageous. I'm supposed to have grit so that I can carry heavy burdens. That's all the good warrior stuff. And so even if you're not getting shot at by Charlie hiding in the bushes, all the virtues, uh, and the strengths of a warrior are absolutely critical for men to succeed in.
- CWChris Williamson
What does a poet have that a warrior does not, in that case?
- JLJohn Lovell
A- All the important stuff.
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- JLJohn Lovell
So, uh, I like to liken it... Well, so, uh, you know, there's the First and Second Amendment. And we'll use that as a metaphor for what I'm about to say. The Second Amendment is the right to bear arms, and it's absolutely critical because it is the big bodyguard of all the other amendments. If you don't have the right to bear arms, ultimately, you're gonna lose your First Amendment, w- which is packed full with all the good stuff. That's, uh, you know, freedom of press, and religion, and freedom of speech, and due process, all that stuff. And so Second Amendment is, uh, the only thing that will ultimately keep tyrants at bay. Now, it may be way far in the future, it may be whatever, but ultimately, all laws are protected and sustained by force. And so if all forces abdicated to a government, even if the government is super swell and sweetie pies, one day, tyrants will take over that. It's just the natural progression of all nations over time. And when that happens, the people will have no recourse, and that's why our founders put a Second Amendment in. I am doing my Second Amendment activism thing. I'm getting on a rabbit trail. I'm pulling back into frame here. And Second Amendment safeguards the First Amendment. But the First Amendment isn't a means to an end, like the Second Amendment is. It's a means in and of itself. So there's the protection of freedom and then there's the enjoyment of freedom. And it is the free man's duty to both protect and enjoy. And so all the stuff that matters most in life is packed in to the, uh, poet er- um, archetype. And so that's, uh, loving my wife and raising my kids. It's searching out truth and finding truth, having the courage to actually face facts, and then be able to bring that in my heart and tell the truth boldly in daring and interesting, beautiful ways. Uh, in, in this is philosophy, and it's religion, a- and it's a- all the stuff that, uh, um, uh, brings in of meaning and hope and morality, all that stuff. That's in the poet area. And so warrior and poet must be embodied in the same man-Uh, men are supposed to be both. We're supposed to be lovers and fighters, not one or the other. In every single one of our brides' or girlfriends' wishes, perhaps they don't have the words that we're using here, but they want you to be, uh, bold and dare... They want a leader. They want y- your strength, but they also want your heart. They want to be able to be, uh, emotionally able to connect with you. They want to be swept off their feet with strong arms. That is romantic, you know? And so, they want the romance too. They want the whole thing. And so it's not lover or fighter, it's both. It's lion and lamb, warrior and poet.
- CWChris Williamson
What are we missing more of at the moment? Because it seems to me, y- you know, the hard time, soft man meme that kind of is being shared a lot at the moment, I- I'm not convinced that soft men are necessarily loving men. I- I- I would go as far as to say that there's some pretty big lacks on the loving and the heart side from guys as well. I think that a lot of men are floundering with regards to their position. What is it that I'm supposed to do? Uh, uh, I- I- I'm scared of being seen as a tyrant if I try to enact anything that's too overbearing or masculine. But without that, if I try to do the polarity, which is the- the loving, soft, sort of cuddly side, that makes me feel weak because I don't have anything to contrast that against. So-
- JLJohn Lovell
Right.
- CWChris Williamson
... what's your, what's your, uh, conception of the topography of current modern masculinity and manhood?
- JLJohn Lovell
I think passive men are neither warriors nor poets. They- they're- they're weak in both areas. Uh, and so yeah, it's not that, "Oh, we're too poet-esque." It's like, no, you're not poet- poet enough. Uh, passive men are not active in pursuing their brides and dating them for life. They're not romantic. They're not vulnerable. They're not seeking out capital T truth. They're sitting on a beanbag chair playing video games eight hours a day. Th- they're just logging time at work. Uh, they would do anything to self-preserve and stab someone in the back if they need to. They'll be nice guys, you know? Maybe they're polite, maybe they're real funny. Uh, but they're not making a mark in any area of warrior or poet. So, um, I think men today need to grow in both aspects. However, I do think men are predisposed to be one more of the other. I'm naturally more l- uh, lion. I'm naturally more war- warrior. I had to learn through a painstaking process how to save my marriage, which was really rough for the couple years and first couple years. And now, it- it's- it's really awesome. I'm 16 years in, bro, and I can-
- CWChris Williamson
Fuck yeah.
- JLJohn Lovell
... I wish, I wish I could, I wish I could just take what's in my head and heart and put it forth and say, "Guys, you have no idea how amazing a flourishing wife is and the power and passion and depth of that safe monogamy." And it is incredible, incredible. Uh, but you gotta fight your way into that. And so I wouldn't change that for anything in the world. Um, m- my faith as well of like, it grows over time. And so that right there has become the most important aspect of my life. But, uh, passive men don't pursue those endeavors. And I had to really... I mean, it's like the heart stuff. I- I feel like just a dumb idiot, uh, where I'm pretty good at taking a punch, uh, I- I'm pretty good at pushing through pain and limits and sucking it up. I can do all that stuff. When I need to foster boldness and aggression, I know how to flip those switches as well. But being able to turn down the dial, uh, and be loving and affectionate and emotionally vulnerable and really know what in the world's going on with my heart in the first place. You know, it's like I'm the dumb... I'm- I'm the last one to know. My wife knows when I'm off way before I know when I'm off. And so... And then even when I'm off, like you'd mentioned before of like, uh, how do you get in that kinda fog? And hey, maybe I'm not performing well on camera and something's off with me and I don't know exactly what it is. And perhaps it's fear or apathy. Apathy, when I start getting apathetic about stuff, I realize, "Ah, there may be fear under there, there may be some type of tension." I need to lean in and see what in the world's going on with me.
- CWChris Williamson
For
- 23:01 – 29:48
How to Be Open Without Feeling Weak
- CWChris Williamson
the guys that are listening who think, "That sounds a lot like me," the guy that is able to embody more masculine virtues, maybe they're not a- a- a fighter, maybe they're not out there taking punches and kicking in doors, but can lean into that more stoic, resilient, nose against the grindstone type of person, tactically, what did it look like or what were the most powerful practices or things that you did that allowed you to open up without feeling weak or fragile?
- JLJohn Lovell
Yeah. And so I- I think there is a terrible misunderstanding about what strength really is, of like the... When I think a strong man, I don't think you got lats growing out of your ears, down to your shoulder, of like y- your- your deadlift is 700 pounds. But if you do have a 700 pound deadlift, bro, I'm gonna buy you a beer. That's amazing. Bravo. Uh, man, there's all kinds of different areas where a man needs to be strong. One is physical. It's the least important unless you're fighting Vikings or something like that. Uh, there's emotional strength. You know, if like if somebody cuts you off in traffic and you lose your mind over that, you're a pathetically weak dude. You- you're angered too easily. Really, that sets you off? You can't even control your own stupid temper? You're a weak man, man. You're weak. And you need to grow in your emotional stability and faculties, right? Uh, I- I think, uh, your spiritual strength i- is more important than any of it. And- and from that, uh, your character, your morality, your- your, uh, all your meaning and purpose is really gonna flow, uh, from that. I think mental strength. Pick up a book, brother.Uh, y- you gotta be smart. You can't just work really hard, grind it out, uh, and expect your life to go really well. Uh, th- life is a series of all kinds of different puzzles, and you gotta be smart to be able to figure this out. Uh, like for instance, you don't talk to chicks the same way you talk to dudes, and if you try to, you're gonna destroy your life. You'll feel tough, but you're an idiot. You're gonna destroy all your relationships because you're an idiot. And so we need to get stronger in all those different areas.
- CWChris Williamson
I wrote a newsletter a couple of weeks ago that I think is very similar to this. I'm gonna read it to you now. So, I did a podcast episode with, uh, Chris Bumstead. He is the Mr. Elite Olympia Classic Physique Champion four years in a row. This guy is... He looks like he's carved out of stone. Uh, he is the modern-day Arnold Schwarzenegger. People are making a lot of comparisons. Uh, and during it, we spoke a lot about vulnerability. (clears throat) So, quote, "'Never be vulnerable in front of your girlfriend,' is common manosphere advice. The guy that I was talking to is more alpha than pretty much every other human that's ever existed, and yet he told me a story of how he sobbed on the bathroom floor in his girlfriend's arms when the pressure got too much for him. Then he got up, dusted himself off, and went to dominate his challenges and become a world champion." Here's the thing: hiding your vulnerability from the world doesn't make you any less vulnerable, it just makes you less honest. You don't change the way you feel-
- JLJohn Lovell
Good.
- CWChris Williamson
... by hiding your feelings from the world. Limits on speech are just limits on sincerity. If you believe that being vulnerable makes you a pussy, how do you arrive at the conclusion that feeling vulnerable and also not being able to open up about it somehow makes you less of a pussy?
- JLJohn Lovell
I love that. I would probably, uh, I agree with it, I love it. Uh, however, I'd probably replace "vulnerability" with something like "humility." Humility would be something that would be better outward-facing to the public, of everybody watching the screen. I... Let me model humility, but I don't know you. I'm not necessarily gonna be vulnerable with you. I may have enemies out there. I'm not gonna show you my soft underside of that's... That would be a mistake. Uh, you know, you're vulnerable with, uh, wolves in sheep's clothing at, uh, work. And one day, they're gonna crush you for that, and it'll be your own stupid folly. You shouldn't have done that. You shouldn't have been vulnerable with those people. But you should be humble with those th- uh, people. Now, the people you love, love risks. Love allows, uh, somebody to be able to wound you. You can't love and also safeguard and protect yourself at the same time. It opens up, uh, wide arms and, and, and bares its soul to someone. And so, uh, in the aspects of that, I think you should be vulnerable to those who have your trust. But that, that's kind of a sacred thing. Uh, now, I'll be vulnerable in some other more superficial ways, and I don't mind doing that on the internet. In some ways, I'm being vulnerable right now just speaking about some of this stuff. And so, in some ways, we can get into semantical traps, but I do like the word "humility," uh, just a little bit better.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah, interesting. I- I'm not familiar with, with using humility in that way. It's probably something that I should look at a little bit more. When I think about humility, I think about not being too big-headed, reducing the ego. Um, but it seems like you're using a different conception of it.
- JLJohn Lovell
I think humility is the very center of morality, and pride is the very center of immorality.
- CWChris Williamson
Interesting. Why?
- JLJohn Lovell
Well, uh, I- I was won over to this way of thinking, and there's a book called Mere Christianity by C.S. Lewis. Ultimately, it will conflate through the moral, uh... Its moral architecture. Its, uh... Ultimately, morality is something that's authored by a moral lawgiver. If you don't have a moral lawgiver, then you don't have a real moral law other than something we just make up. That means whether it's the individual that says, "This is what's moral," or whether society that makes some type of social contract. Still, morality, in this case, would be something that we just make up because it's helpful, but it's not transcendently real. And the heat death of the universe in a million years from now, when we're all just gone, whatever moral musings we'll have now will be just washed away and will be meaningless in a godless universe. And so ultimately, morality would start by a moral lawgiver. And so, if it's, uh... If God is there, then everything is about God and not about us. In which case, pride would say, "Things are about me," and humility would say, "No, things aren't about me. I should live a selfless life." And humility then becomes this root that grows out into every single other virtue so that you can actually live selflessly in every single, uh, respect. Uh, and so that's why I- I think people naturally, intrinsically know this, and that's why if you ever find somebody arrogant, you hate 'em. But if you find some... You know, your hero in some story is kind of like a humble suffering that against insuperable odds ends up winning the day, uh, people root for that underdog, it's because naturally pre-programmed in, we recognize humility is praiseworthy and pride goes before a fall.
- CWChris Williamson
Very good. Yes. So,
- 29:48 – 35:41
Being the Most Dangerous Man in the Room
- CWChris Williamson
why is it important... Going back to the warrior archetype, why is it import- important to be the most dangerous man in the room?
- JLJohn Lovell
Sure. So, really, if you check out that chapter, it looks like that chapter in my book is going to be about, "Hey, the most dangerous man in the room. Be the most dangerous man in the room." And really (laughs) , uh, it- it unwinds this tale of when I thought I was the most dangerous man in the room, and then I got in my butt handed to me in a way that I still haven't recovered from, Chris. I'm still limping that one off somewhat.
- CWChris Williamson
Can you tell us the story of it?
- JLJohn Lovell
20... Yeah, there was... The girls' soccer coach at my high school came in one day into our wrestling room, and he was gonna be my st- sparring partner. I was a very good wrestler. I was the school's wrestler. I had all kinds of records. Some of them are probably still standing. I was a good wrestler at this school. And so, um, it didn't really matter if you were much bigger than me. I would beat our heavyweight even though I was 130. Uh, and so, uh, um...And I say all that to, uh, say that when this middle-aged, kinda portly dude, uh, came in, uh, I knew that he had some martial al- arts background. He's g- he was put with me, which I thought was really insulting of my coach to do. And we're kinda, uh, going through some just different moves and warmups. And this guy, I'm like, "Man, uh, he's got a little bit of a dough belly, but this dude moves slick." And he was, and he was fast. And we're just chatting while we're going, and then we start pushing into more of, like, free wrestling. And, I mean, at this point, I'm, I'm starting to get a little frustrated and, uh, I'm going 100%, and the dude just took me apart. Uh, and so he just... While he was chatting with me, too. So it's like he didn't know I was in the fight of my life. And so, uh, anyway, uh, I realized, uh, something about kind of pressing back into pride goes before a fall. Uh, I noticed that the most dangerous men on the planet who, uh, I've worked with, whether they were, uh, Rangers or SEALs or Delta or, you know, three-letter agency contractors, SAS, SBS. I worked with all kinds of really, really dangerous dudes. And at the very tippy-top of those guys, they're always these more humble, unassuming guys. And I'm like, "What is that? What is that?" And you realize, uh, the arrogant guy can only get so tough and, and he can only get so far. Uh, but you have to be teachable. And to be teachable, well, e- arrogance will only let you get so far in that respect. And so I saw a lot of guys who were kind of PT studs, they'd get into Ranger battalion and then they'd wash out. And then some other guy with less impressive physique, but, uh, uh, he's got a longer suffering grit and character under the hood. He had deeper, uh, reservoirs in his soul to tap into. That dude didn't quit and he went the distance. And so that's really what more of the chapter's, uh, uh, aiming at, is we find incredible strength through humility. And I do press in. It's not all fluffy, metaphorical stuff. I go into some real brass tacks of like, "Hey, let's be tough, guys," in, in the, uh, more obvious and traditional sense as well.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah. I... What do you think it is about the guys that are the most dangerous being more unassuming? Which way do you think the arrow of causality runs? Do you think it's because they're so dangerous that they choose to be unassuming or is it in the other direction?
- JLJohn Lovell
You know, uh, I, I am not sure, but I, I, I think humility l- uh, opens up. It... Humility is a seed that will, uh, reap a harvest of, uh, I think blessing on the other end. And so a really arrogant guy is very hard to teach anything to. And so that's part of it. So that, that could be-
- CWChris Williamson
It's gonna cap-
- JLJohn Lovell
... really pragmatic and easy to see.
- CWChris Williamson
... cap his ability to progress, to continue to grow.
- JLJohn Lovell
I, I, I think tha- that's, that's definitely it, too. And I think God's against him. He's awesome.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah. There's a... One of the things that Chris, that, uh, bodybuilder guy that I spoke to said on the episode was he doesn't have the tyrannical self-belief that someone like a Michael Jordan does. So, you know, Michael Jordan is... He, he wouldn't even dream of losing if anybody slighted him. There was this sort of rage fire that was lit underneath him. Um, but Chris's approach is very different. He's like, "I think about losing all the time." He's like, "I'm scared of losing. I'm scared of losing to my opponent." But his idea was that by... because he has accepted the fact that he may lose, he believes it's given him the potential to be able to put it all on the line in a way-
- JLJohn Lovell
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... that someone who hadn't considered the possibility of losing wouldn't be able to do it.
- JLJohn Lovell
Yeah. Um, I would be more like, uh, more like him in that, man, I really hate losing. Logically, I have to entertain the idea. And that... And, and through thinking through war gaming how, how I might lose or, or what would happen if that hap- Uh, I can... Y- There's all kinds of useful nuggets in, in me that, that can fuel my preparation and I can find some fuel in there for, uh, training and game planning, war planning. It also keeps me from, uh, not, uh, underestimating whatever I'm up against. I just know at a early age, especially on the wrestling mat, I hated, hated losing. And so I wanna run the race, uh, to win. So, uh, uh, uh, yeah. But, uh, I'd also say, um, I don't want my identity wrapped up in that. Uh, I hate to lose just because I'm competitive like that. But, uh, I, I'll be quick to say I am not one that is chasing after the, that golden carrot of greatness. Uh, I think greatness is significantly overrated. I would far rather pursue goodness.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm. Yeah, you talk
- 35:41 – 41:32
Why You Shouldn’t Pursue Fame & Fortune
- CWChris Williamson
about men, uh, being on a quest to achieve something beyond fame and fortune. What is that?
- JLJohn Lovell
Uh, I think it's, uh, fool's gold, man. Uh, uh, uh, that life of, "Man, if I get this much money and chicks are all about me and I got the dream job and the dream car..." A lot of folks, if you really pay attention, there's plenty of people that have that. And you can look and some of the most miserable people you know are extravagantly wealthy or in, in dire poverty, you know? And so now I recognize also that people on their deathbed aren't calling for their stock market portfolios or looking at pictures of all their vehicles or something. Uh, at the end, I think it's hollow. I think what will happen is the CEO that checked out of his, uh, kids' lives for decades, hoping that he would just earn enough and be enough realized that he missed the most important things all along. And all he really cares about is, is making things right with the kids that he's estranged from. And he missed it. He missed all the good stuff. And I would far, far rather downgrade my quantity of life so I can scale up my quality of life. And so I would rather be a good man. Good mens... Uh, good men can make, uh, rippling, wonderful impacts on the world around them. They have, uh, terrific legacies where people's lives were changed for the better. Th- they weren't just out pursuing some gold medal or money. And some, uh, you know, some huge-... uh, bank account, and, and I'm not against those things. I'm like, "No, I'm, I'm going after that stuff, too." Uh, I'm like, "I'm, I'm, I'm gonna try to kill it at work, and I'm not gonna have a loser mentality either." I'm just recognizing, as I go forward toward all those good pursuits, I'm gonna keep the main thing, the most important thing. My relationship with God is more important than my bank account. You'd know that if you looked at my bank account because you'd be like, "Holy cow, son of a gun, John gives away a lot." I'm like, "Yeah, I do." I think it's the most imp- I think that's more important. Uh, y- you would see that I spend a, uh, a lot of time pouring into my kids, and I'm making memories with them all the time. And me and my wife, we're doing fantastic, as I've said before. And I've got deep relationships that are growing around me, and I've got joy, and I've got peace. And all that stuff, uh, builds a wonderful legacy. And so that's what I'm after, not writing my name in the sky.
- CWChris Williamson
Going back to what we were talking about before, that sort of fear of failure, uh, your acceptance of it, even though you have a desire to win. And sort of Chris' almost embodiment of his fear of failure. I remember I played cricket. That was the sport that I played growing up, very British. And, um, I remember I was so afraid of disappointing my coaches or Mum and Dad or whatever. Um, the way that cricket gets played, each different type of player is quite tactical. And if the either game conditions or the weather doesn't suit it, um, a lot of the time, certain types of players, of which I was one, can turn up and not contribute to the game massively. So, you just end up in the field. Maybe you didn't bat because you were batting down the order and the weather wasn't appropriate so that you didn't end up bowling. It's called a TFC, a thanks for coming. And, um, I remember each Monday, I would have a call with the coach from the county that I was from, and this is the equivalent of, you know, whatever playing for your MLB or, uh, team. Um, and I was on the youth setup for Durham, which is the northernmost, uh, county setup in the UK, where I'm from. And I would have this call with my coach, and he would say, "How did you get on over the weekend?" And there would almost be a degree of relief in me when I got to say, "Oh, man, you know, the pitch, the, the, the, the conditions, they weren't right. Uh, I, I, I, you know, I really wanted to bowl. I really wanted to get myself out there. But, uh, the captain, he's just, you know, he's not playing me, he's not putting me out there, blah, blah, blah." And there was a degree of, um, of relief. I remember, I know that there was a degree of relief in me. And I realized, looking back, that that was me being scared. It was me-
- JLJohn Lovell
Hmm. Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... it was me being cowardly because I would have sh- sooner assured my inability to fail through not being put onto the stadium floor rather than face the potential defeat.
- JLJohn Lovell
Yeah. Isn't that interesting? We waste so much time and energy and stress so much because we really just get the definitions of words wrong. And we give so much, we give so much ground in our lives to things like fear. I tell my sons all the time, I'm like, "Boys, it's okay to be afraid. You're just not allowed to let fear stop you, you know? It's okay to cry. We just cry about the right things, you know? Like, hey, you stump your toe, suck it up, buttercup. Men don't cry when they're physically hurt. Uh, we- we- we're gonna be tough, and that's what I teach my boys." Uh, but, uh, if, if you cry because you're overcome with love for somebody or, you know, something, that, that, uh, your heart has moved. I'm like, "The toughest dude I've ever heard of, absolutely, is, is the, the one who split time in two, Jesus Christ. Uh, tortured, yet doesn't cry out, uh, you know? And, uh, just, uh, absolute, uh, moral strength, spiritual strength, intellectual strength, physical strength. He had the, the, uh, absolute, the whole package there. Um, and, uh, where, where was I? Where was I going with that? I got distracted. I, I talked about... Oh, uh, yeah, yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Talking about failing and the children are crying.
- JLJohn Lovell
Yeah, but Jes- (laughs) That's right, but Jesus wept. I'm like, "The strongest dude weeps?" I'm like, "Yeah, yeah, yeah, those are, those are strong tears. Those are strong tears of, like, what, you're overcome because you love someone so much so that you cry?" I'm like, "Well, that's not weakness. That, that's strength of, like... No, no, a guy who never cries, that's really weak. You must love very little. How sad. How weak." And that's how I think about it now.
- CWChris Williamson
What
- 41:32 – 47:57
Fearing Our Inner Coward
- CWChris Williamson
about someone that resonates with that story? They may be... They may fear that they do have an, an inner coward inside of them. In fact, I've got another story that I wanna tell you, um, that I wrote in a newsletter a little, a few weeks ago. Uh, this is so good. So, um, I recently got to speak with someone I've been curious about for a long time. He went through a difficult period many years ago. Even though he's beyond it now, he came very close to losing everything, financially, reputationally, psychologically. I asked him how he had dealt with the darkest time he'd faced. He told me that he'd had a concern in the back of his mind throughout his entire life. He was always worried that deep down, he might be a coward. That secretly, he might not be the strong, capable person he thought he was. That when the rubber met the road, he wouldn't be able to stand up and face whatever the world threw at him. See, many of the challenges we face in life are largely under our control. We choose jobs we apply for, the house we try to afford, the partner we try to seduce, the weight we even lift. These things can still be hard, tough, challenging, sometimes unbearably difficult, but it was us who chose the flavor of that difficulty. So, what happens when absolutely everything comes crashing down, the single worst possible scenario that you can imagine happens? Well, you get to see what you're made of, what you're genuinely made of, when all of your forces are marshaled to a single challenge. And he said that he'd had faith in himself, but he'd never been pushed hard enough to prove that his faith was justified. And this is a quote from him. He said, "I could always hear my best self clearing his throat in the room next door." But when he never knew if this self was able to come in when it was needed, it turns out that he did. I love the quote, and I love the story because I think many of us are uncertain about just how capable we are. Maybe a couple of times in your life, all hell will break loose, and your best self will have to stop his coughing and come to say hello.
- JLJohn Lovell
Well-written. Bravo. Uh, it resonated immediately with me. It's like he's, f- there's the fear of the inner coward. I'm like, "Well, yeah, of course. Yes, yes." Say it out loud. Yeah, you got an, you got a coward inside you. Uh, and so do I, you know? So do I. And, uh, th- there is, um, okay, I recognize where I'm at. I recognize I have the propensity to cowardice in all kinds of areas of my life. And just because you're a hero in one area doesn't mean that you're not cowardly in another area. I wanna be strong across the board. You know, if you're a castle, you want every single door around the castle closed. And if you don't do that, then you risk being overwhelmed, overcome, and then you are just on the ropes of life. You can be overthrown by life. And so it's not good to just have three really strong doors and one weak one. I'm like, "Guess where the chain breaks? At the weakest link." And so we wanna be, uh, heroic in every single respect. And so I think there's great stuff that you can do to grow, um, amidst the fact that, hey, uh, we could be, uh, cowards. I mean, one is to just run at whatever, uh, makes you afraid. Just make yourself do it. You're afraid of heights? Well, guess what? You're going bungee jumping. Uh, oh, closed spaces? Spelunking, brother. I'm like, "But I'm scared." I'm like, "Yeah, yeah, yeah, but this is a great opportunity to kill fear." Run at it. Whatever you're afraid of, that is where you're gonna have to grow. Go turn around and face it. Stop running and face it. And that's one way we can do it. Uh, another way, and I th- I find this very effective as well, is, uh, there's a place in the book of First John, uh, and this is the Bible, it says, "Perfect love casts out all fear." And it's absolutely true. Perfect love casts out all fear. Of like you drop, you know, your, your kid goes overboard, a five-year-old kid in a shark-infested water. Mama bear's gonna jump in, you know? (laughs) It's like, you're afraid of stuff like this, man? Mama bears are not afraid of anything. It's that, that perfect love of to protect, you know? Of oftentimes, the soldier is ready to, um, fight and face death because they're desperately, uh, trying to protect their dudes to their left and right. It's about the, the, the soldier that, that loving comradery. And so I, I think if we're perfected in love and character and righteousness, then you're not gonna be afraid. The righteous as bold as lions. Uh, I wanna, I have a quick story because there is a, a gal, uh, I talk about her husband or, um, her late husband in the book, um, The Warrior Poet Way. He'd become one of my first mentors in Ranger battalion. He was, he was into the Jesus stuff before I was, and so I didn't really understand much of that. Uh, I'll, um, Kevin died, uh, years after getting out of the military, uh, in a motorcycle wreck. And, uh, I was very close to him. He was the one that officiated me and my wife's wedding. So very, very close, uh, to him. Uh, and that was really hard, and I remember getting the call. It was real, real early in the morning, um, like 2:00 in the morning. And, uh, I remember his wife, uh, and she's just like, "John, John." And I knew something was wrong. I'm like, "Oh, Kelly shouldn't be calling me so early, um, in the morning." And she told me what would ha- what was happening. And she, this girl, so strong, she was trying to take care of my upset the night that she learned. Um, I, I don't see Kelly very often, but she's on her way flying to spend the weekend with us right now. So, um, anyway, she'll be in this room here in a couple hours. I haven't seen her in, in a very long time. Uh, but, um, I remember in the midst of that just brokenness, and we are both weeping, we cannot keep this together at all, uh, loved Kevin deeply, deeply, I said, "Kelly, what is God doing?" And, uh, she said, "I don't know, but He's sovereign." Uh, sh- basically what that means is, "Well, I don't know, but He's in control. It's gonna be okay." That's what she said, uh, to me. That, that's what that word sovereign meant, uh, to her. And I'm like, "Holy smokes." Talk about fear, talk about brokenness. Uh, this girl was strong and brave in ways that I wasn't. She's better than me, she's stronger than me. Uh, and I love Kelly for it. Uh, but, uh, anyway, and I noticed that her faith was what made her so strong. So, there you go.
- CWChris Williamson
Y- y- you talk
- 47:57 – 55:03
The Importance of Facing Death
- CWChris Williamson
in the book about the importance of facing death before you die. Why?
- JLJohn Lovell
So if you face death, it will immediately push all the vain pursuits to the left and right, and all that you're left with in the middle is what matters. If you face death, if you realize, uh, what's worth dying for, you know, what- what's worth living for.
- CWChris Williamson
What does facing death look like from a-
- JLJohn Lovell
Well-
- CWChris Williamson
... tactical perspective? How, what is a way that people can practice doing this?
- JLJohn Lovell
Oh, gosh. I mean, I, I'm understanding how you use the word tactical now, (laughs) 'cause to me, I see, like, battle drills and arrows -
- CWChris Williamson
So you kick down a door. Yeah, exactly.
- JLJohn Lovell
... and I see-
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Strategically, operationally, how do we get this to, how can we get it to grow corn?
- JLJohn Lovell
So I have some prescriptors, some, uh, recommendations in the book, so I don't wanna give everything, uh, away. But I'll, I'll say of... Man. Yeah, sure. All right. Uh, I, I like you, I like your audience. I'll go ahead and-
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- JLJohn Lovell
... I'll, I'll go ahead and give you-
- CWChris Williamson
We'll get this one for free.
- JLJohn Lovell
... I'll, I'll give you a juicy one. There you go. But guys, um, uh, now you gotta get it. You gotta go buy the book because I'm giving you an edible.
- CWChris Williamson
Link in the show notes below, brother.
- JLJohn Lovell
There. Thanks, brother. Uh, so before I ever went off to combat, uh, one of the very first things I had to do when I got to Ranger battalion is they pack me for war. Day one at Ranger battalion, they packed me for war. Uh, so, uh-But, uh, then I immediately had to write a death letter. And your death letter is your last words to family, friends, who... whatever. Put it in an envelope, you seal it, and you hang it in your wall locker so that if you never come back, your buddies mail the letter. And, uh, yeah, they're like, "Okay. Well, all right, you write a death letter. No big deal." Yeah, right. Uh, especially you shipping off for war, you're like, "I may never come back. These may really be my last words." Uh, and I had, um, I had some blurry letters and words on that document where I wept over that. And so, I- I had to, um, really do an audit of those relationships, a- and, and I told people what they meant to me. And, and I tried to take any business that may be unfinished and make sure that it was finished. So even after that letter of like, "I gotta make some calls, I gotta tell some people some stuff, I gotta offload some junk that I've been dealing with. I need to be completely unshackled, unfettered, ready to die for a cause." And so, um, it, it, it was really remarkable. And so in, in the book, I lead people to do just that, uh, and go through that exercise. You can't be ready to die if you have unfinished business, if you have unresolved conflict, if you've withheld forgiveness for some people that you should have, if you owe someone some apologies and you don't realize it. Furthermore, you're not ever ready to die if you haven't settled the hardest questions of life. Is there a God? Uh, and if so, if there's a God, what does that God want from us? Uh, am I right with that God? Uh, I- am I ready to... Uh, am I ready to die? Am I ready to kill? Wh- am I really, really ready to kill over this? If, like, if somebody goes to carjack you, are you ready to shoot 'em for it? Like the John Wick 1 movie? Had a real problem with that. I love John Wick movie, by the way. But he, he murders like 130 dudes because they killed his dog he'd had for two weeks and they stole his car, which is probably insured. And they're like, "No, no, no, you don't get it. It... He loved the dog and it was sentimental..." Blah, blah, blah. So like 130 henchmen you killed. Some of those guys were just, you know, working a beat, just like, "Hey, I got a new job today," and then you got whacked. You had no idea about the puppy killing situation thing. You just whacked a whole bunch of people. And now he gets to li- uh, vent limi- limitless rage. Wow, this is quite a, uh, a, um, quite a rabbit trail that... What is worth dying for? What is worth killing for? "I don't care about m- my wallet." "Here, take my wallet. I'll have my credit cards canceled within the hour." "I'm not... It's not worth killing you over. I'd rather... Here, here's my car keys. I- I'm buying your life so I don't have to kill you for this." And so settling all those most important philosophical and theological questions must be done, because if you ever do, face your own demise, and we never know when that's gonna come. Uh, uh, let's say you have to act heroically. You gotta push through it. Do something. You gotta be brave. You gotta protect somebody. Your brain can be ambushed by those greater questions and unresolved conflicts and things in your life that are still in disarray, and you'll find yourself distracted by those items and not able to keep your mind on the ball in the present. In, in effect, you can get ambushed by all these questions and it can, uh, rob your ability to, um, to do what needs to be done. Does all of that make sense?
- CWChris Williamson
It does. I also imagine that the unresolved conflict or the ungiven thanks and gratitude to the people who need it, that have shaped you and helped you, uh, that just probably ambiently sits, you know, somewhere-
- JLJohn Lovell
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... just in the back of your mind. It just floats around behind you and it'll surface just a tiny little smidgen every week, every couple of weeks, every month, and it'll just remind you and it's, it's going to be slowly just eroding away at your experience of life.
- JLJohn Lovell
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Uh, and on top, on top of that as well, you know, you have the opportunity by reaching out to somebody who deserves it with an olive branch or with gratitude or with thanks or with whatever it is. By doing that, you get to live the, the wonderful opportunity of bathing in the reflective glow of making somebody else feel good while you're both still alive.
- JLJohn Lovell
That's good. Yeah. I- I love that. If... For me, I can be so stupid and kind of in my heart of hearts that, uh, I may think something doesn't bother me. I'm like, "Oh, no, no, no, I'm over that. I'm over that." And really, I'm not. I don't feel, I'm not thinking about it, but as you said, it's kinda back here. It's some place sitting, brooding, and growing in my subconscious. And my conscious brain just doesn't know anything about it. But I know that, you know, dysfunction, maybe you gotta a dad that really did you wrong or something else like that, and you're not gonna forgive him 'cause he doesn't deserve it. Just understand that that root, uh, even if you're not thinking about it consciously, that root grows and it becomes bitter and it infects and poisons all ar- uh, all kinds of different area, uh, uh, parts of your life. And so being able to forgive people, even sometimes when they don't deserve it, uh, is good even from a self-preservation standpoint. Now, forgiving someone isn't the same as trusting them, you know? They wronged you. You're like, "I forgive you. I release that. But I'm not gonna trust you anymore." Trust is slowly earned and quickly lost, you know? "I'm not gonna trust you." Uh, you know, so anyway, there's some thoughts.
- CWChris Williamson
John, let's bring this one home, mate.
- 55:03 – 55:58
Where to Find John
- CWChris Williamson
I really appreciate you. Uh, I love the fact that you're trying to marry these two worlds. Um, I- I really think that we could probably do with more warriors and more poets, and less of the passivity that we're seeing at the moment. If people want to check out the book and all of the other stuff that you do and your courses, where should they go?
- JLJohn Lovell
The Warrior Poet Way is the best place to find the book. Thewarriorpoetway.com. Uh, that's gonna land you on our website too, so you can kinda hunt around, but our website is warriorpoetsociety.com. From there, you can find our YouTube stuff and our social media. Good luck. They're gonna censor that like crazy... So even if you click on the stuff, who knows whether they'll serve it up to you. They hate us 'cause we tell the truth. And so, uh, yeah, party on, man.
- CWChris Williamson
John, I appreciate you. Thank you, mate.
- JLJohn Lovell
You as well. Thanks, brother.
- CWChris Williamson
If you enjoyed that episode, then press here for a selection of the best clips from the podcast over the last few weeks. And don't forget to subscribe.
Episode duration: 55:58
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