EVERY SPOKEN WORD
150 min read · 30,098 words- 0:00 – 8:04
Achievements Joe Is Working Towards
- CWChris Williamson
I love everything that you do. I can't believe, I genuinely can't believe it took me as long as it did to find your work. It's Charlie Hooper from Charisma on Command that said you'd been a gateway drug for him-
- JHJoe Hudson
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
... to a bunch of other stuff. And, um, I get the sense you're kind of an underground hero in sort of the self-work world, who's now becoming, uh, increasingly less underground, um-
- JHJoe Hudson
Yeah, because of you. (laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs) Yeah, and OpenAI. You're now the head of what at OpenAI?
- JHJoe Hudson
Uh, no, not head. Um, I just, I'm working there maybe, like, 25 days this year. But I'm, um, working with the compute and research teams.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- JHJoe Hudson
So basically the management of the, of the folks who are creating the technology.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- JHJoe Hudson
It's, uh, it's great work. The, the, the cool thing is that when I think about generally, like, the creation of technology or the creation of art or the creation of this podcast, it's a reflection of the consciousness of the people who are creating it. And so to be able to be in there and work about, with consciousness and how the culture's consciousness is and how the people interact with each other and how they view themselves to me is, uh, uh, a complete honor to be able to work there with them.
- CWChris Williamson
Because you're further up than all of the things that are going to come after that, all of the products-
- JHJoe Hudson
Right.
- CWChris Williamson
... the branding, the way that they deploy this stuff.
- JHJoe Hudson
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah, that's interesting.
- JHJoe Hudson
That's true. Yeah, and, and they're just sweethearts. I can't tell you, once that news came out, so many people came to me and, you know, with a lot of fear. There's a lot of fear in the AI space, and, and I understand why people have the fear, uh, not the, both the people on the outside and the inside, like, "Oh, th- this is a revolutionary technology. What's gonna happen? We don't actually know." So-
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- JHJoe Hudson
... fear arises. And, and I think what surprised me about it is just, like, especially OpenAI, just the folks are just sweeties. Like, they're just, like, such lovely humans.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- JHJoe Hudson
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
What drives you? What are you trying to achieve with your work?
- JHJoe Hudson
Oh, yeah. So, so what I would say is that generally what we, we have this epidemic of stress and lack of enjoyment in, in our society right now. And, and the thing about that is that it's corrosive both on an individual and on a societal level. So individually, it means that we do not learn as well. It means that we make bad decisions. It means that we, um, don't get the world that we want. It means that we're uncomfortably living. It means we die faster, all those things because we're stressed and we're not enjoying life. But on a society level, if I'm stressed, I mean, the world's a threat. That's why we stress as mammals, right? So, "Oh my gosh, the world is a threat." And if I acts, act like the world is a threat, then eventually, if I'm like, "You're a threat, you're a threat, you're a threat," eventually you're gonna be a threat to me. I mean, if I treat you like an asshole, you're gonna act like an asshole eventually. If I treat you like a threat, you're gonna act like a threat eventually.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- JHJoe Hudson
So you're looking at our world right now, and it's whole bunch of stressed-out people treating everybody like threats, and everybody's starting to act like a threat.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- JHJoe Hudson
Doesn't matter whether you're looking at politics or marriages or relationships or... So there's this just... So to me, then the question is, like, how do we work on that stress, that, and, and increase the enjoyment? And typically, the, the way people look at that is, "I'm too busy. The world is too complicated. The politics are doing this. Like, uh, there's a big unknown future, I'm s- you know, I have my phone, and it, that's distracting me." So they put it all outside of themselves, and that's actually... They, they contribute, like, having a cell phone, you know, buzzing all the time is gonna increase your stress, no doubt. But they're not the actual cause of the stress. The cause of the stress is three things, and then this is where I get, this is where I'm really, like, this is where my work comes in. The first thing is, um, repressed emotions causes a shit ton of stress in humans. Second thing is lack of connection, causes a huge amount of stress, and the third thing, which I think is most relatable for people, is the negative self-talk, causes a lot of stress. So if there's a voice in your head that is constantly criticizing you, you're constantly under attack, that's constant stress. That's like a war zone in your head. And so, so that's where my work is. My work is in changing the voice in the head, and, and, and the thing about the voice in the head is that I think most people, the way they think about it is, "I want it to stop," or, "I'm gonna be in self-improvement, I'm gonna improve myself, I'm gonna improve..." But that's just more abuse.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- JHJoe Hudson
So I flip from self-improvement to self-understanding, right? Today, we are starting this thing, and you're looking at the thing, and you understand the videos, and you're... And it's because you have understanding of all that stuff.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- JHJoe Hudson
You didn't say, "I've gotta learn, you, better, better, I gotta be better, I gotta be..." You're just like, you learnt the stuff, and then it happens. But somehow when we interact with ourselves, it's, "You gotta be better, you gotta be better, you gotta be better."
- 8:04 – 11:38
Identifying The Negative Voices In Our Head
- CWChris Williamson
- JHJoe Hudson
Exactly. (laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
Um, you talked about the negative inner voice, that critical self-talk.
- JHJoe Hudson
Yeah, yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Where does that come from?
- JHJoe Hudson
Typically, it comes from, uh, somebody who was raising us. Typically, and that could be... As a matter of fact, that same daughter and I were listening to our podcast on, Um, Voice in the Head, and she's like, "I..." She was 10 years old. She's like, "I know where my voice in the head comes from." I'm like, "Where?" She's like, "My teacher and my grandma," and, like, she just, like, named the people she could hear in her head. Um, yeah, so it's basically stories that we were told when we were younger. So if mom and dad are mad at you, and you're, you're thinking to yourself, "Oh, that has to be something I did." It doesn't have to do with, you know, at eight, you're not like, it's their coffee habit or, you know, they had a bad day at work, anything like that.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
- JHJoe Hudson
So then you start, "Oh, I shouldn't do that. I have to do this." And you're basically trying to figure out how to exist in the world, and this voice starts developing in your head.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- JHJoe Hudson
And it's an incredibly non-productive voice. It takes so much energy. Like, I think somebody... I think it's the Cleveland... I think it's Cleveland Clinic? I could have that wrong, but they say that there's 50, 60,000 thoughts that a person has a day, most of those repetitive, many of those negative.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- JHJoe Hudson
And it's like, it frees up so much energy when that stuff changes.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah. It's, uh, it's interesting thinking about how kids, they, they can't change their environment, so they have to learn to exist within it. You know, you, you don't have a passport and a bank account and the Uber app and, and, you know, Airbnb to be able to go and get yourself away. You don't have... You don't even know what that means. Like, what does it mean-
- JHJoe Hudson
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... to do this? You, you don't even know if you're in the right when your parents say that you're not in the right. It's like, "No, no, no. That's not what it should be." And you go, "Well, the, the case for the defense seems to be woefully underfunded here."
- JHJoe Hudson
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
You know? (laughs) The case for the prosecution-
- JHJoe Hudson
Right.
- CWChris Williamson
... has all of the benefits of being an adult and being the one that's in command and them being two of them and only one of you.
- JHJoe Hudson
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Um, and, yeah.
- JHJoe Hudson
And, and it's normal. This is the only thing that you've ever known, so it's completely normalized. You're not even getting the idea of like, "Oh, it could be different."
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- JHJoe Hudson
This, this is just it. And, and we're geared, neurologically speaking, we're geared to, to be programmed in those years. So, you know, the brainwaves, theta brainwave is a brainwave that basically is the programming brainwave, right? It's like, it's that place between awake and asleep is when adults feel it typically, um, but kids feel it most of the time from zero to seven years old. So in human development terms, they're basically in that place that is-
- CWChris Williamson
Spongy.
- JHJoe Hudson
Yeah. Exactly. And it's why they believe in fairy tales and Santa Claus and all that stuff because they're in that world. And so it's like the place where we get programmed.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- JHJoe Hudson
And so that's why if you have certain modalities of healing, there's some that is like, "I can describe everything that's wrong with me, but nothing has changed." That's because you're working in the head. If you're working more intellectually, if you're working in what, that theta brainwave space, you're like, "I don't, really can't describe the whole thing, but shit, my world's changed."
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
- JHJoe Hudson
And that's why those, when those modalities, oftentimes the ones that work really effectively are the ones that you can't quite explain what the fuck happened.
- 11:38 – 16:26
Is There Such A Thing As Too Much Self Reliance?
- JHJoe Hudson
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
What about self-reliance? I feel like there's an issue of too much self-reliance. A lot of people want to be highly agentic. They want to self-author. They want to be able to take control. I don't need to be able to rely on anybody else.
- JHJoe Hudson
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
But is this such a thing as too much self-reliance?
- JHJoe Hudson
Yeah, so I think it's a staged... You know, it's just the way that you, like, where you're at developmentally. So there are some people in the world who feel like they don't have any control over their life, like they're tossed and turned, so self-reliance there is probably a great thing to learn, right? That, that's a great moment for them to learn, "Oh, I have choice. I, I can command. I do..."... have the ability to make my world what I want it to be. But then at some point, that weighs down. Then you're, "Shit, I'm responsible for everything," and uh, uh, uh. You know, and-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- JHJoe Hudson
... I can't rely on anybody, and that's typically where those super self-reliant people, and I'm speaking about us here, but like, both of us grew up this way. On some level, there was some learning earlier on in our lives that it was, um, "I- I am alone in this."
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- JHJoe Hudson
There's some, "I'm alone in this," and that makes us, "I don't wanna feel..." So this is where the emotional thing comes in. "I don't wanna feel that deep aloneness. Couldn't feel it as a kid. Don't wanna feel it now, and therefore, my reaction to not feel it is self-reliance."
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- JHJoe Hudson
And so that really slows us down because you can only accomplish so much as yourself. You can accomplish a tremendous amount as a team, but you can't do that in a team where you're always, always alone, feeling like it's all on you. We all have had bosses like that. They're horrible to work with.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- JHJoe Hudson
They start yelling, "I'm all alone in this. Why can't anybody fucking blah, blah, blah, blah, blah." That's like ultra self-reliance instead of actually realizing that... This is something that I teach CEOs all the time. Everybody here at this company wants you to feel like th- they're doing a good job. Everybody in this company cares that you think they're doing a good job. Everybo- everybody in this company didn't w- didn't wake up and say, "You know what I wanna do? I wanna go and have a shitty time at work today."
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- JHJoe Hudson
"I wanna really under-fucking-perform." Nobody wakes up saying that, and yet you feel all alone in this because CEOs are typically very self-reliant.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- JHJoe Hudson
Yeah, so it's a blessing and a curse. It's just what stage you're in.
- CWChris Williamson
What would be an indication to somebody in their personal life that they are overly self-reliant? What would be the sort of behaviors, thought patterns, ways that they show up, things that they do?
- JHJoe Hudson
I think typically it's, "I'm alone in this." It's that feeling of, "Oh, I'm- I'm- I can't depend on somebody. See? They're not there for me again. See? I've been abandoned again." It's that feeling, "I- it has to be on me. I have to do it."
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- JHJoe Hudson
So I had a- I had a- a client- have a client who worked with one of the biggest Silicon Valley narcissists, and every week-
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- JHJoe Hudson
... it was review time, and they would just yell at her, just yell at her and her team, and then they'd go to the next team and yell at them and their team, and they'd go to the next team and yell at them-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- JHJoe Hudson
... and their team. And one day, she just looked at him and said, "Hey, I see that what you are saying, your wisdom, is really important, and I want you to know that everybody in this room wants you to get your vision met. It's just hard for us to do it when you're yelling at us." And he never yelled at her again because she addressed the actual underlying thing, which is, "You're not alone, and we wanna help you."
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
- JHJoe Hudson
And so if you're dealing with somebody who has that self-reliance, that's the- the- the solve, is to say, "Hey, I see what you care- the how much you care about this thing. I see that you really want this, and I wanna help you," if you wanna help them. I mean, don't be-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- JHJoe Hudson
Don't be inauthentic about it.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- 16:26 – 24:40
Do We Seek Validation In The Wrong Places?
- JHJoe Hudson
Exactly.
- CWChris Williamson
I think for a lot of people in the modern world, they've steeled themselves against-
- JHJoe Hudson
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... pain, against, uh, being open, uh, vulnerability, uh, this sort of fear of needing anyone. "I don't need anybody. If I need somebody, then that means that they can take away from me something which is necessary."
- JHJoe Hudson
Right.
- CWChris Williamson
"And- and how am I going to operate? That's my life support system."
- JHJoe Hudson
Right.
- CWChris Williamson
"But if I- if my life support system is completely endogenous, and you know, I'm- I'm- got a solar panel on my back, and I can just continue to trek even if I move more slowly, even if it's more miserable, even if I feel alone, even if I'm not supported and I'm detached-"
- JHJoe Hudson
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
"... at least it can't ever be taken away from me." I had this insight, this thought, one of the reasons that, um, people continue to prioritize their careers over relationships is because only they can leave their career, but not only they can leave the relationship. That somebody else-
- JHJoe Hudson
Ah.
- CWChris Williamson
... can exit a relationship.
- JHJoe Hudson
That hurts. Yeah, yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Why does that hurt?
- JHJoe Hudson
Oh, just that like, um, the idea that the lack of vulnerability will bring you happiness.
- CWChris Williamson
I think it steels you against the potential for unhappiness, perhaps would be the way that people see it.
- JHJoe Hudson
Uh, yes, exactly, but it ensures it. (laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Well, you guarantee failure privately by not exposing yourself to failure publicly, right? It's like, "I know-
- JHJoe Hudson
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... that if I- if I stick to this particular route," and this is, you know, the- the- the person hard-charging, chasing after their career, this is what comes first. And you think, "Well, what about, like, what are you doing this for? What- what's the out- what's the outcome that you're looking to get here?" Yeah, you want recognition and validation and all the rest of it, but it's like, "You've- you've got it in the person that you lie next to at bed every night."
- JHJoe Hudson
Right.
- CWChris Williamson
"Like, you've got it in the kid that's, you know, 10 feet above you in the next room."
- JHJoe Hudson
Right, yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
"Why are you seeking all of this validation from people who..."... if you stopped doing what you did, would stop giving a fuck about you, whereas the people that are in the house around you don't care about what you do, they only care about who you are. And you're trading people who care about you for who you are for people who care about you for what you do.
- JHJoe Hudson
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
And I think the reason is-
- JHJoe Hudson
That's what makes me sad. That's the thing that hurts. People chasing happiness and, and only creating their own misery in it.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm. I think it's a, and I understand it-
- JHJoe Hudson
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... it is an easy route to avoid something being taken away from you because it's only you that can stop driving on the mission, right? But do, y- y- uh, you are playing... When you're doing a, a career, you're playing tennis by hitting a ball against the wall and for as long as the wall doesn't break, which, you know, it's gonna take a very long time for you to do that with a tennis ball, you can keep playing, whereas a relationship-
- 24:40 – 29:38
Where Does Passive Aggression Come From?
- CWChris Williamson
Two of your insights, we often abandon ourselves in an attempt to prevent other people from abandoning us.
- JHJoe Hudson
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
And if you're trying to manage other people's feelings, you're abandoning your own.
- JHJoe Hudson
Yeah. Yeah. Well, that, that, that's a great example of those things. So generally, if you're walking on eggshells, it's one of two ways. Either I'm gonna break the person if I say my truth, and that means you're dealing with somebody who's more passive-aggressive-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- JHJoe Hudson
... if you're dealing with somebody who's more aggressive than you're worried about them getting angry at you-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- JHJoe Hudson
... and so you're trying to manage them, and if you're managing them, you're not in your own truth.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- JHJoe Hudson
So in your own truth, you're gonna say your truth and love an open heart, and you're gonna deal with the consequences of it. And if you don't, you get resentment. That's where the, uh, resentment comes from.
- CWChris Williamson
Where does passive-aggression come from?
- JHJoe Hudson
A person who's not able to be aggressive. (laughs) So, so if, if I'm in a, doing a workshop and someone gets passive-aggressive with me, I'm like, "Okay, just get angry." So it means that anger was bad in their childhood that-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- JHJoe Hudson
... and so I can't be angry, so I'm gonna go, "Nice dress."
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- JHJoe Hudson
I'm not gonna actually, or I'm gonna be late, or I'm going to not call you when I say I'm gonna call you, all the things that passive-aggressive people do.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- JHJoe Hudson
The thing about passive-aggression is that the people who are passive-aggressive often don't know they're doing it. Sometimes they do, but oftentimes they don't know they're doing it. What they feel, like the person who's self-reliant feels alone, the passive-aggressive person feels like, uh, they're stuck, lo- they feel like a, like, "I can't, I, I can't get out of this situation, and so the only thing I can do is..." (fingers snapping)
- CWChris Williamson
Dig away.
- JHJoe Hudson
Yeah, dig away. Which, by the way, is what we do with ourselves. The, that's how the voice in the head works, the exact same way. So some part of our voice in the head that we hear and we can really go with is, "You should work out more." I mean, you probably don't do that, but, (laughs) but, "You should work out more." And then, then there's this other part that, like, is like, "Yeah, maybe I won't go to the gym, I'm gonna..." And so we're, we actually have the same relationship inside of us.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- JHJoe Hudson
And if that relationship inside of us changes, then the relationship externally changes.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
- JHJoe Hudson
Yeah. So if you don't accept your own passive-aggression internally, you won't accept it in the outside world.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah, I think... Uh, I had this idea of shadow sentences, that a lot of the time people are scared of saying what it is that they want or what it is that they need. So instead of s- pointing at it directly, they sort of gesture in, in the direction of it, it's sort of, "It's over there," they sort of leave it to hang in the air a little bit, like sort of dropping a fart and then leaving the room, I suppose-
- JHJoe Hudson
Yeah. (laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
... or, you know, like sh- people say this about LaCroix, you know, the sparkling water, it's so lightly flavored that they say, i- if you're drinking the lemon one, it's like somebody shouted the word "lemon" in the next room while it was being built.
- JHJoe Hudson
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
And that's what shadow sentences make me think about, you know, they're sort of-
- JHJoe Hudson
Yeah.
- 29:38 – 35:44
Why Do People Get Defensive?
- JHJoe Hudson
- CWChris Williamson
Defensiveness, you mentioned that. Why do people get defensive?
- JHJoe Hudson
Why do people get defensive? Because they're protecting their ego. They think that they're, the, and, and they don't even actually know what they're protecting typically. Um, so anything that you can get defensive about is, is true about you. So, like, what, you could tell me I'm stupid. I can think of a way I'm stupid.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- JHJoe Hudson
You can tell me I'm a dick. I can think of a way I know I'm a dick.
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- JHJoe Hudson
You can tell me I'm wrong. I can think of six ways I'm wrong. (laughs) Like, there is nothing you could say to me that isn't fucking true.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- JHJoe Hudson
So what am I defending? So I have to actually believe that there's a me to defend to be defensive. It means I have to be in my head, I can't be in my heart. If I'm in my heart, there's nothing to defend.... like there, it could hurt. "Oh, God, that hurts." Like, "Why are you saying that?" "Ouch." I'll say, "Ouch to that."
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
- JHJoe Hudson
But there's nothing to defend.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- JHJoe Hudson
Like what, what, like, who am I proving it to? What am I like... What, like what, what exactly am I defending? That's the... A- anytime I see somebody defense, I'm like, "What exactly are you defending?" And that really throws people 'cause they can't find it.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah, it's interesting. I suppose sometimes people inject themselves into situations. Well, you know, defensiveness when somebody is being attacked-
- JHJoe Hudson
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... so to speak, uh, is, I guess, one level of it, but a degree of defensiveness, which is not even necessarily about that person. It's like, "Hey, this thing happened and it made me feel sad," and then defensiveness comes out from the other person.
- JHJoe Hudson
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
It's this sort of injection of them into you-
- JHJoe Hudson
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... or into the situation.
- JHJoe Hudson
Oh, yeah, that way, yeah. (laughs) Okay, so there's one thing that it rhymes with the voice in your head. If you say something to me that makes me defensive, whether it's at me or not at me-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- JHJoe Hudson
... it rhymes with something that I say in my head-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- JHJoe Hudson
... to myself.
- CWChris Williamson
"I'm not good enough. I'm not worthy."
- JHJoe Hudson
Right.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- JHJoe Hudson
Exact- Or, "I shouldn't eat wheat." Like, you're like, you say to me, uh, "Yeah, I've given up gluten," and I get defensive. It means there's something in me who's also like, "Yeah, my diet's got crap."
- CWChris Williamson
Shouldn't be eating wheat. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- 35:44 – 39:49
How To Overcome Defensiveness
- JHJoe Hudson
to fight over.
- CWChris Williamson
So that's, uh, an, a way to interject as the person speaking to the one that's maybe a little more defensive, at least in this situation. What about, uh, accepting that? Or w- what, how can people get over their own defensiveness?
- JHJoe Hudson
Uh-
- CWChris Williamson
How can people become less defensive in themselves?
- JHJoe Hudson
Yeah, so the way I think about shifting behavior is that there's three... This is gonna be a long answer to your question, but I think it, it's really useful. There's three ways, there's three brains at play, right? There's the, um, the human brain, prefrontal cortex. There's the mammalian brain, which is the emotional, um, part of our system. And then there's the reptilian brain, which is the nervous system part of our system. And if you don't address the change on all three levels, then-... it's, the change isn't particularly gonna stick. So you really wanna address it on all three levels. So if you find yourself defensive, the first one is intellectually find that it's true. Intellectually just go, "I know that whatever they said, there is truth to it." And find the truth in it. And so that kind of calms the intellectual piece of it. What the emotional thing is happening is that if you're in a defensive place, you're in shame. There's, you think there's something wrong with you. And so usually what shame is doing is stagnating an emotion underneath it. So if you can feel the emotion that's underneath the shame and fully allow, like welcome that in, not accept, "I will accept this emotion," it's like, "I'm welcoming this emotion in and feeling it," then that's the emotional side of it. And then, and like I said, we make decisions to feel certain ways, right? We're, we don't want to be homeless because we don't want to feel a certain way.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- JHJoe Hudson
And then there's the nervous system, and the nervous system is telling, "I'm not safe. I'm under attack." And so if you can just come to your senses, literally feel, like rub your legs or just put your attention on the bottom of your feet, anything where you're, where you're coming to your senses, it will calm the nervous system down. And those are the three ways of doing it.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm. Yeah. You say if you're scared of feeling an emotion, you're already in it.
- JHJoe Hudson
Yeah, yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
What's that mean?
- JHJoe Hudson
Yeah. Uh, so there's... If I am scared of feeling something, then I am... I don't know how to say it any clearer, actually (laughs) .
- CWChris Williamson
I'm almost ready again.
- JHJoe Hudson
(laughs) Yeah, I was about to define it b- by saying, just restating it. Uh, if there is an emotion that you don't want to feel and there's that... It means that you've already tasted it to not, to not want it. The problem is that you, you often... Intellectually we don't understand that we are in, in the emotion. So especially if you were brought up like I was, like deeply in my head. So I had to learn that I was scared b- by the way my mind worked. So I was in binary thinking. Anytime I was in binary thinking, I'm like, "Oh, that's fear," because I actually couldn't feel the system. So if you take a kid who was physically abused and you put a quarter in one hand without telling him and a key in another hand, they won't be able to tell you which is which because they've learned to cut off the sensations of their body. And it's the same thing. If you were emotionally put through it, called abused or just told emotions weren't okay, you will learn to stop feeling those emotions.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- JHJoe Hudson
And so a lot of times, we don't actually know we're in the emotion that's happening.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- JHJoe Hudson
But if you're scared of that thing, it's a great signal, of the emotion, you're... It's a great signal you're in it and you're resisting it-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- JHJoe Hudson
... and that's what the fear is actually doing.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, that's interesting.
- JHJoe Hudson
Yeah. "I'm scared to be abandoned" means you're already abandoning yourself, right? That moment in the relationship where you're not saying your true thing, you're scared of abandonment, you're already in it. That, that self-reliant person who is, who is scared of being left alone and are having to do it all by themselves, they're already left alone and already-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- JHJoe Hudson
... having to do it by themselves.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
- 39:49 – 44:41
Why Fear Creates Binary Thinking
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah, the thing that you fear has already come to pass.
- JHJoe Hudson
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah. And you've been part of the architect that's put it together as well.
- JHJoe Hudson
Yeah. Emotionally, yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
- JHJoe Hudson
Yeah, yeah. Live with it long enough and the actual thing will happen too.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- JHJoe Hudson
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah. Uh, when your thinking is binary, fear is running the show.
- JHJoe Hudson
Yeah. So it's just... There's two things that the mind does when fear is at play. The first thing is it does is it creates binary thinking. So it's, "I buy the car" or "I don't buy the car." It's not, "I negotiate for the car. Maybe I buy the car as a Honda instead of the Toyota version." We just do this black and white thinking. "Either I leave her or I don't leave her. I either leave the job or I don't leave the job." So immediately you know you're compromised. Your intellect is not working at the level that it could work if you're doing any kind of binary thinking. The other thing that it does is it creates a false end. "I will be homeless," and then you don't think, "And then what?"
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
- JHJoe Hudson
I... You know, even the, like I said, that death, uh, meditation of the samurai, they go through the end of death. "I'm gonna die and then that's it." They don't, you don't think about, "And what's next?" And so that's, those are the two things that when you do that, you're in fear. And, and that's why making a decision from fear often begets more fear, because you're limiting the possibility that's there. You're saying, "Oh, it's gonna be this way or this way" in your mind, and so you're creating that reality-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- JHJoe Hudson
... in, in the world. And so black and white realities create fear 'cause there's, you know... If, if you were either friends or were enemies, like that's, that, that is a, that's a scary-ass situation-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- JHJoe Hudson
... as compared to, "Oh, we could be all sorts of kinds of friends and all sorts of kinds of enemies and we could be both," and which all exist in the world.
- CWChris Williamson
What about someone who feels like fear is running the show a lot in their life, that that's a, a very prevalent sort of emotion?
- JHJoe Hudson
Yeah, there's a couple things that can create the fear. O- one of them is repressed excitement. One of them is, um, them not getting their actual needs met, and the other one is, uh, other emotions that they're, that they use, that they can't allow themselves to feel so they'll use, they'll use the fear. So oftentimes you'll see the last one with, um, that classic mom who's, like, using their worry to try to control everything, right? Like, "I'm so scared about your, you, you driving that four-wheel drive. Please don't do that." Or, "I'm scared about..." Like, "Be careful when you take that trip to Thailand," that-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
- JHJoe Hudson
... whole thing. That's like... Is that fear or is them, that them not taking care of their needs or is it them not feeling empowered? What's the actual feeling that's, if, that if they could feel it, the fear might go away? And oftentimes that's excitement-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- JHJoe Hudson
... which is crazy. So there's a really cool hack. Take anything you're scared about. I would, I would ask you to do it, but I don't know, I don't know if it'd be good, but...... the, take anything you're scared about, um, and literally say out loud, "I'm excited," 10 times. "I'm excited, I'm excited, I'm excited, I'm excited, I'm excited, I'm excited, I'm excited." And the way that neurology is wired, it's they're very close to one another and so apparently, uh, it's, I mean, my ex- self-experimentation is it's like 90, 95% effective. I go from fear to excitement. And I think it's in the, I think it's in the Jewish tradition that they actually have two words for fear and one fear is like, "I'm scared of physical, like physical death," or like-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- JHJoe Hudson
And the other one is, "I'm scared is I'm stepping into a bigger room. I'm stepping on stage."
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- JHJoe Hudson
"I'm, like I'm asked to do something to go to the next level." And so much of our fear in modern society is that second kind of fear.
- CWChris Williamson
Type two masquerading as type one.
- JHJoe Hudson
Yeah. And so exactly. So if you actually allow the excitement, "Oh, I'm stepping into a bigger room."
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- JHJoe Hudson
Yeah. Like if I was scared coming in here, is am I, am I scared or am I just like super fucking excited?
- 44:41 – 47:22
Adapting A More Optimistic Outlook On Change
- CWChris Williamson
Rick Hanson has this really wonderful insight where he's talking about, uh, people fearing change.
- JHJoe Hudson
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
So there's new things that are happening in life and, uh, one of them, one of the insights that he has there is the, not only is there a binary, so you guys agree on that. But he says, "Well, why do you assume that the change is going to be worse?" Right? Look back on most of the changes that happened in your life, most of the changes were better.
- JHJoe Hudson
Yes.
- CWChris Williamson
Mo- most of the things, most of the times where there was a change it preceded an improvement. So he has this wonderful little maxim where he says, uh, "See yourself as the sort of person who can handle change well." Like, wow, I, I'm the sort of person that can handle change well, that change isn't some big scary threat, that it's not gonna cause some massive catastrophe for me. Huh. What if it's the choice isn't between this or worse but this but better?
- JHJoe Hudson
Better.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- JHJoe Hudson
Yeah. Or, or what if I just get excited over whatever the change is?
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- JHJoe Hudson
And I think that this, this is, yeah, this is one of the prevalent things. And it, and it's, and a lot of that has to do with the voice in the head because the voice in the head is constantly trying to, "Okay, you're gonna do this if this happens and this and this happens. And then make sure that this, if this everything..." Like they're calculating and you're playing three-dimensional chess.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- JHJoe Hudson
And instead of, uh, like if you do that playing sports, you're gonna suck.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- JHJoe Hudson
You know? If you're thinking instead of actually there playing the game, you're gonna suck. And so it's the same thing in life. Like all that pre-thinking often really slows down performance.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah. That's an interesting one. For the, uh, perennial over-thinkers, uh, a lot of the time I think people have this sense that they're thinking about life and they're watching themselves experiencing it whilst not experiencing it.
- JHJoe Hudson
Yeah. (laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
The, the, you know what I mean? The- there's, there's this sort of they're, they're supposed to be playing Call of Duty first person but they're actually playing it third person.
- JHJoe Hudson
Right.
- CWChris Williamson
And they're observing it happen and it's taking them out of the moment and they're thinking about the thing that they're experiencing-
- JHJoe Hudson
Right.
- CWChris Williamson
... which by design stops them from experiencing it.
- JHJoe Hudson
They're trying to get it right which can't be gotten. Like there is no right to be gotten. So I'm gonna think about everything so that I make the right choice.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- JHJoe Hudson
The right choice when? The right choice in two minutes? The right choice in four minutes? The right choice in two years? Like how many things that you did that were complete disasters led to you being here right now? Right? So there's no right choice. You can't even measure if the choice was right-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- JHJoe Hudson
... afterwards. But you spend literally 20 minutes trying to figure out, or 20 hours or 20 days trying to figure out-
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah. You say
- 47:22 – 52:58
Why We Need To Stop Chasing Perfection
- CWChris Williamson
choice, "There is no way of getting it perfect. There is no complete, no finish line, no done. There is simply what's the next experiment. There is only play."
- JHJoe Hudson
Yeah. Yeah. So the, yeah, I, so- the way I think about that one is, uh, so when is an oak tree perfect? When it's an acorn? When it's like a sapling? When it's like 100 years old? When it's 200 years old? Like when is it perfect? But yet somehow or another we have to be perfect. It's not. It's just iteration. It's just, it's just evolution. Evolution doesn't end. The only thing that ends is an idea in our head and our egos. Egos can't exist. If you actually really understand that there is no end, the ego has to evaporate.
- CWChris Williamson
Say more on that.
- JHJoe Hudson
(sighs) Right? So oftentimes the people who are searching for enlightenment, they think once they get the enlightenment then it'll be done. Right? That's just the ego talking. That's just, that's just, oh, there is gonna be this end point where then I'm gonna be happy. Like, that, that, that is an ego thought process so that they can, so you can whip yourself and beat yourself up to get to that place. And it is just a way to convince yourself that what you want can't be found right now.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- JHJoe Hudson
So if I said to you right now, without going into the past, without going into the future, you can't find any evidence from the past or any evidence in the future-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- JHJoe Hudson
... find a problem with you. (laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah, that's funny.
- JHJoe Hudson
Yeah, there is none. You can't find it. So, so you need an end because the other ex- the only other choice is to be in this moment, which is where the ego doesn't get to exist.
- CWChris Williamson
I wrote this quote from van Gogh this week in my newsletter that said, "If I am worth anything later, I am worth something now, for wheat is wheat even if people think it is grass in the beginning."
- JHJoe Hudson
Oh, I like that. That's so- that's so fucking good.
- CWChris Williamson
The same thing you're talking about, right?
- JHJoe Hudson
It is.
- CWChris Williamson
The acorn.
- JHJoe Hudson
Okay, I'm gonna- I'm gonna- I'm-
- CWChris Williamson
"A wheat is wheat even if people think it is grass in the beginning."
- JHJoe Hudson
I'm gonna geek out. Let me geek out for just a second. So today, I got a text from somebody who... a zen, uh, teacher that I know, and he was worried about AI, and, uh, and so found out that I'm working-
- CWChris Williamson
You're the guy to ask.
- JHJoe Hudson
Yeah, apparently I'm- yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Are they coming for my zen teaching?
- JHJoe Hudson
Say again?
- CWChris Williamson
Are they coming for my zen teaching?
- JHJoe Hudson
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
Tell me, Joe.
- JHJoe Hudson
(laughs) Yep, and, uh, and my response was, um, just like everything, this river is gonna find the lowest ground, so where it's gonna end up is already determined. And it's the same thought process that you just said there. Like, even the action that I take and that all the people will take towards influencing AI, like, all of that is set in a- and fro- from that same kind of point of view. So, our job is the same. It's like, show up with love, do what you're called to do. You know, draw the boundaries, say the truth that you can see. And, but the whole idea of, like, I have to manage my entire world to get to the place is just-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- JHJoe Hudson
... it's just a huge amount of stress. It's all self-talk.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- JHJoe Hudson
Not real.
- 52:58 – 56:37
Becoming Comfortable With Vulnerability
- JHJoe Hudson
- CWChris Williamson
If it feels scary to say, it's important, if it feels scary to sc- to say, "Not saying it will hurt your connection," if it feels scarry to s- scary to say, "Not saying it prioritizes their imagined reaction over your truth" ...
- JHJoe Hudson
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Why?
- JHJoe Hudson
What's a qu- wha- why? (laughs) Why?
- CWChris Williamson
Why?
- JHJoe Hudson
Um, so I'm not scared to say things that aren't important to me and vulnerable to me. So I, I could qualify that and say, that quote, I could qualify that quote and say, "With an open heart." To say it with an open heart, but... And I think that would probably be more accurate. But, uh, if I'm s- if I'm scared to say it, it means that there's something important and it's something vulnerable.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- JHJoe Hudson
If I am... if I say the important thing to you and I'm vulnerable with you, our connection deepens.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- JHJoe Hudson
Always the case.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- JHJoe Hudson
If I am not willing to say that, it means I'm scared of a reaction that you're gonna have from me, which means I'm prioritizing you more than I'm prioritizing my own needs.
- CWChris Williamson
Yes, yes.
- JHJoe Hudson
I'm actually prioritizing my fear over our connection as well.
- CWChris Williamson
And over yourself.
- JHJoe Hudson
And, yeah, and over myself, that's right.
- CWChris Williamson
So it's-
- JHJoe Hudson
And so this is how I run my business. It's how we run our marriage. It's how every- it's like, and this prevents resentment. It, like, it's amazing. If, if I find something that doesn't feel right, I will speak to it. I might not speak to it right now. It might take a day.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- JHJoe Hudson
Because I'm not gonna be heartless and, like, and not pay attention to the person or have compassion or empathy for where they're at, but I'm going to say the thing that's scary to say or the thing that's bothering me.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
- JHJoe Hudson
And, and, and my expectation with the 18 or so people in our organization is that they do the same thing. Like, that's a d- we tell them, "That's, that's the job. You gotta say the hard thing." We actually start our meetings with, "What's a scary thing you're not saying?"
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- JHJoe Hudson
... because that's what keeps relationships clean, that's what keeps the problems at bay. That's, like, stepping into it instead of trying to avoid it.
- CWChris Williamson
It's, I was trying to think about the difference between, uh, selfish and selfless, and this is a third one that's not, that's not either of them. You, so, you're not being selfish because you're actually hurting yourself in it.
- JHJoe Hudson
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
You're not being selfless because you're killing the connection. And like, what the fuck is this? Like-
- JHJoe Hudson
And you're, and you're not trusting them.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah. It's like, what is thi- it's not, you know?
- 56:37 – 1:06:21
Prioritising Our Own Needs
- CWChris Williamson
So I had this conversa- I told you about this episode I did with Naval, which will be out by the time that people are listening to this, and hopefully many millions of people will have listened to it. And it, he, I came up with this idea having watched him.
- JHJoe Hudson
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
And you, you haven't heard him speak but, uh, I, I'll try and explain it as best I can. He is, uh, patient zero for what you've just said there, that he, I've seen him at, uh, dinner parties, if we're partway through a conversation that he's just not interested in, he just gets up and walks over to another corner of the room. There's no airs or graces, uh, there's no sort of apologing, apologizing for him not being sufficiently entertained, "I must, I'm sorry, I'm going to have to go, very much," there's no excuses and, uh, nothing else.
- JHJoe Hudson
Yeah, lovely.
- CWChris Williamson
And I came up with this term of, like, holistic selfishness, uh, or a sort of integrated self-priority, whatever you wanna call it.
- JHJoe Hudson
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
He's unapologetically prepared to put himself first, and he is not concerned about the discomfort that that causes in other people, or in himself actually.
- JHJoe Hudson
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
And, um, I just wanted to sort of sit with that. It feels like a lot of what we've talked about at the moment is sort of self-prioritization. It's like, okay, uh, uh, not selfish prioritization but, um-
- JHJoe Hudson
Correct.
- CWChris Williamson
... deciding that your needs are legitimate, uh, uh, uh, uh, not subjugating your desires or, or the things that you want from the world because of a, a fear of them not being, uh, requited, or, or reciprocated, or received, or whatever, or retaliation for them.
- JHJoe Hudson
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Um, what, what would you say to the person who is unusually comfortable with deprioritizing their own needs, with not seeing their, their wants or their desires as legitimate, with, uh, regularly subjugating what it is that-
- JHJoe Hudson
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... they, uh, would like to get from the world in place of not wanting to sort of upset the apple cart in that way?
- JHJoe Hudson
Yeah, I would say, I would probably (laughs) start off saying something a little provocative like, "Wow, you're a really non-compassionate human being." So the, the, the reason I would say that, first of all, is selfishness generally is just something we were told we were when we weren't doing what our parents wanted us to do. So it was just basically our parents being selfish, and we weren't doing what they wanted, and they were like, "You're selfish," right?
- CWChris Williamson
That's a great take.
- JHJoe Hudson
So that-
- CWChris Williamson
Great take.
- JHJoe Hudson
So that's where selfishness generally comes from. The second thing is, let's say, let's bring God into it for a minute. If you believe that what's best for you ultimately, ultimately what's best for you, is not what's best for everybody else, then God is a sadist. God has set up a world where-
- CWChris Williamson
You have to make a trade.
- JHJoe Hudson
... you have to make a trade. And my experience, my experience is that when I am doing what's actually deeply right for me, I am doing what's deeply right for everybody.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- JHJoe Hudson
Right? There's no, apologies, I thought that was off.
- CWChris Williamson
No, not at all.
- JHJoe Hudson
Um, um, yeah, the, um-
- CWChris Williamson
Deeply right for me.
- JHJoe Hudson
Yeah, deeply right for, deeply right for somebody else. So the, so my experience is that the compassionate act is often hard, sometimes easy, sometimes in the middle, but it's, it's the thing that is best for both you and for me. If I am not gonna be true, so for instance, the, uh, easiest way to look at this is, uh, do you want me to come to your party if I feel obligated to come to your party?
- CWChris Williamson
No.
- JHJoe Hudson
Yeah. Exactly. I'm, I'm, I'm saying I can't be selfish, I have to go because I said I was gonna go-
- 1:06:21 – 1:14:47
How We Can Show Up More Bravely With Ourselves
- JHJoe Hudson
- CWChris Williamson
Why do you think it is that the, this equation, this odd, imbalanced equation of it can either be good for them-
- JHJoe Hudson
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... or it can be good for me, but it can't be good for either. And if it's good for me, a lot of the time it's bad for them.
- JHJoe Hudson
Right.
- CWChris Williamson
W- what's that, what's the-
- JHJoe Hudson
Fear.
- CWChris Williamson
Okay.
- JHJoe Hudson
Yeah. It's, uh, uh, so any time there's that binary, then there's a fear. In this particular case, it's a fear that was probably built at a very young age that was mom's gonna be happy with me, I have to abandon myself, or dad's gonna be happy with me and I have to abandon myself, or I don't abandon myself and I'm gonna get punished.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
- JHJoe Hudson
And that's, I think, where that typically comes from.
- CWChris Williamson
Just sit a little bit longer in the, this sort of bravery, you know, this, somebody listening who says, "Fuck, like, that's me. I compromise myself-"
- JHJoe Hudson
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
"... all the time. I don't say what I mean. I do- I've done it so long that I don't even know what I mean to say anymore."
- JHJoe Hudson
Don't even know what I need, don't know what I want.
- CWChris Williamson
"Yep, I've subjugated it under, you know, fucking layers and layers of, of sedimentary rock." Now, uh, how can someone start to show up more bravely in the world in that way, for themselves?
- JHJoe Hudson
Yeah, the, um ... It ... So it's really about ... So this is where the emotions come in. So if you can imagine the emotion that you're gonna have to feel when you say the thing and you're gonna get rejected and you can live that experience and you can welcome that emotion, then there's nothing to be scared of.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- JHJoe Hudson
Right? "Yep, they're gonna get mad at me. Okay. I felt that, I know what that's like. I'm gonna be there with them."
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- JHJoe Hudson
I, I can, if, if ... The interesting thing is, you could get really mad at me and if I can stay an open heart, it's fucking not a problem at all. My job is to have people get mad at me. Like when we do our-
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- JHJoe Hudson
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah, I'm going away with you at the end of this year, or maybe I'll, maybe I will be getting mad at you at some point, I don't know.
- JHJoe Hudson
I guarantee. And, and-
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- JHJoe Hudson
And I mean, if you look at my handle on Twitter, it's Fuck You Joe Hudson, it's F-U Joe Hudson.
- CWChris Williamson
Oh, right. I didn't know what that stood for.
- JHJoe Hudson
It's because people, when I work with them-
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- 1:14:47 – 1:19:18
Preventing Resentment In A Relationship
- CWChris Williamson
there was another insight as well, which I, I fucking fell in love with this really, really great, um, essayist and he was talking about I think he calls it the divorce paradox, and he says, um, uh, many people are surprised by why couples who in public are seemingly so perfect end up splitting up, and it's because of a lesson that we haven't fully internalized in the modern world, which is, it is not the good times, but how you deal with the bad times that predicts the longevity in marriages. It's not how much fun and vibe you have when things are great, it's how well you move through rupture and repair and come back out on the other side.
- JHJoe Hudson
That's absolutely it. Yeah. The, the, uh, uh, when I'm a- asked by people about, "Is this the right person for me?" My answer is almost always the same, which is two things. One, are they working on themselves and do they see the relationship as a way to work on themselves? Two is when you have conflict, how's the repair? And if you have those two things, it'll work out. It might not be pretty, (laughs) it might, it might be hardcore for a while, but it will work out.
- CWChris Williamson
Well, I kind of think about it like trading in a way, that, um, you know, your stock can move-
- JHJoe Hudson
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... uh, intraday, intramonth, intrayear, it can move an awful lot, but as long as you don't bottom out, as long as you don't actually end up getting kicked out the bottom of your trade, you're like, "I'm still in the fucking market, baby."
- JHJoe Hudson
Right. (laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
Um, but if it decides to go to zero-
- JHJoe Hudson
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... and that is a we, we actually can't do rupture and repair particularly well.
- JHJoe Hudson
Right.
- CWChris Williamson
Uh, well, we can do rupture well, but we can't do repair well.
- JHJoe Hudson
Right. Exactly. Yeah, and then, then it just turns to resentment, and then resentment to disdain, and then it's over.
- CWChris Williamson
Talk to me about resentment. Where does that come from?
- JHJoe Hudson
Um, res- There's a couple things that typically in a relationship, one of the main ways resentment happens is that traditional, say, um, someone has the male role, the female role. The male role often is like, "Uh, my job is to try to make this person happy." That's gonna create resentment, just that action right there. "My job is to make this person happy." Because what you're saying is, "You can't make yourself happy. You need me." "Fuck you, I don't need you."
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- JHJoe Hudson
That's the underlying thing that's happening. So you'll see, oh, uh, you know, uh, the man is like, "Uh," and it happens both ways, don't get me wrong, but the man is like, "Oh, I need to... I need to duh-duh-duh-duh. Like, I've real- I've done everything I can to make her happy and she's still not happy." I mean, how many guys have you heard that from? It's like, right, she's not happy because you're not treating her like a full-grown fucking adult who knows how to take care of herself.
Episode duration: 2:23:38
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