How To Manage Your Time For A Happier Life - Dr Cassie Holmes

1. 0:00 – 0:20

   Intro

   1. CHDr Cassie Holmes0:00

      If you are investing your time on the things that matter to you, then you will be happier, you will be more satisfied. And it's not more is better, it is just being intentional and spending the time in ways that matter to you. (wind blows)

   2. CWChris Williamson0:18

      You are basically

2. 0:20 – 3:49

   The Link Between Time & Happiness

   1. CWChris Williamson0:20

      a happiness teacher, right?

   2. CHDr Cassie Holmes0:22

      Yes. I teach happiness, and particularly focusing on the role of time for our happiness.

   3. CWChris Williamson0:29

      Why are those two things intrinsically linked?

   4. CHDr Cassie Holmes0:33

      Well, because the way we spend the hours of our days sum up to our, the years of our life. And so, the time that we spend is the fabric of our life. And from that, we are either more or less happy. And when I say happy, what I mean is the joy that we experience in our days, as well as the satisfaction we feel about our lives. So, there's both that emotional feeling within, as well as evaluative and cognitive feeling about, um, that. Both of those are linked too. And when I say the word "happy," and feeling happier, which is really the goal and, you know, part of the title of my book, um, that's what I'm talking about.

   5. CWChris Williamson1:23

      Interesting. I remember reading a summary of Dan Gilbert and Daniel Kahneman's two approaches of what they thought about happiness, the lying in the pool with a cocktail on a lilo for the rest of your life. Yes, it's not meaningful, but you enjoyed every second individually. And then the other version that was, like, a meaningful one. And it seems like your definition of happiness here kind of combines the two. It's the state enjoyment in the moment, and it's the retrospective feeling of being ha- satisfied about how your life has gone and about each moment that, as it was spent. Is that the commonly-

   6. CHDr Cassie Holmes1:57

      Yeah.

   7. CWChris Williamson1:58

      ... held definition when we talk about happiness in the literature and the science at the moment? Is that what people mean when they refer to happiness?

   8. CHDr Cassie Holmes2:05

      Um, it is the, sort of, what the literature refers to the term that they say is subjective wellbeing, and that is the coupling of this emotional component, so feeling more positive than negative emotion, as well as satisfaction about. Um, and notably, there are instances in which they do sort of come apart, but as, I'm not even just talking about the literature, but really about the implications for us as individuals and how we should be spending our time. What I am going for is that coupling. Like, we both wanna feel s- happy and satisfied while it's happening, but also have it have an impact on our evaluation of how good life is and how meaningful... And meaningful is actually, or meaning is, it's a little bit of a separate construct. Um, but in our research, we've actually looked at what's the correlation between how happy people are feeling and how meaningful they feel like their life is, and they're so highly correlated. And yeah, there are instances where, again, you can pull them apart. But as I'm striving to feel sort of good in and about my life, and I think that that's what a lot of individuals are striving for, that's the operationalization of this idea, this construct, using scientific jargon. But basically, that's our goal, to feel happy within and happy about, and really it's about feeling joy and fulfillment. So, that's the goal.

   9. CWChris Williamson3:48

      What are

3. 3:49 – 9:36

   Biggest Predictors of Life Satisfaction

   1. CWChris Williamson3:49

      the biggest predictors of happiness and life satisfaction?

   2. CHDr Cassie Holmes3:53

      Well, if you look at the, all the studies that have happiness as a dependent variable, as the outcome, you see that a big thing that has an effect is our natural disposition, so our personality. Um, and so, like, are you (laughs) a naturally half-glass full type person, um, or are you a natural grump? Um, now, that has a big effect, um, and it is important to recognize. But I don't focus as much on that, because we don't have control over that. Um, the, another thing that does have an impact on our happiness is our circumstances and our life circumstances. So, these are things like income level, attractiveness, marital status. And interestingly, these things are the ones that a lot of people are like, "If only I have that, then I'll be happy," and that's what they're sort of striving for. "If only I had a lot of money, then I would be happy. If only I met the love of my life and got married, then I'd be happy. If only I were super gorgeous, then I would be happy." And the research shows, looking at the correlation, the relationship between those circumstances and happiness, that there is a relationship, but it's significantly smaller than we think. And the answer is no. If only you had a lot of money, would you be happy and happy forever? The answer is no for that. If only you were super g- gorgeous, would you be happy and happy forever? The answer is no for that. If you found the love of your life and got married, would you be happy forever? The answer is no for that. And so, also our s- life circumstances are largely out of our day-to-day con- control. So, again, that's not something I focus on. What I focus on is this final chunk, this input into happiness that does, in science, show has a significant effect, and actually a significantly larger effect than we think. And that is what we do...... and our mindset in the day-to-day. And I particularly am focused, through this lens of time, how we spend our time and how we think about our time has a significant influence on our happiness. And this is where we have choice, and this is why I'm interested in it, because if we understand the science and know, are informed, "Okay, what has been validated as having a significant effect on how we feel in our days and how satisfied we feel about our lives?" Well, great. Then we can make the choice, the day-to-day choices, to implement those insights and then feel happier in our days and more satisfied about our lives.

   3. CWChris Williamson6:42

      What are the ways in which the happiest people spend their time then?

   4. CHDr Cassie Holmes6:47

      Well, the research points to some averages. So, eh, looking at time tracking research, what those folks, the researchers do is look over the course of people's days, what are, what activities are they doing as well as how they're feeling over the course of the day so that you can identify, okay, what are those activities that on average are associated with the most positive emotion? What are those activities that on average are associated with the most negative emotion? That research points to the happiest activities are those that involve social connection. So, whether through intimacy (laughs) or spending time with family and friends. The activities that are associated with the least amount of happiness on average tend to be commuting, work, and housework. So, that's a bummer, and we can talk about how to address that. But I think what's even more helpful for folks and listeners is not thinking about averages, but actually when, and which I describe this process and this exercise that is so helpful, uh, in Happier Hour, is basically tracking your own time. So, over the course of a week, writing down what are you doing, what activities are you doing, or what activity are you doing, and every half hour. And there's a worksheet on my, uh, website in case helpful. But really it's writing down what you're doing and being more specific, not just work or socializing, but what work activity are you doing? And if you're socializing, who, who are you with and what are you doing? And as importantly is as you're coming out of that activity, how did that activity make you feel? Not this sort of global as like, "I like to do this and I don't like to do this." But having spent your time doing that, how do you feel on a 10-point scale? And this is so helpful because at the end of the week, you have this fantastic personalized dataset. So you can look, "All right, what are those activities that got my highest ratings? What were those that really made me feel happy and satisfied and joyful? What are those activities that are, like, not at all happy?" You also can see just how much time you're spending across your various activities. So you can sort of pick up on like, "Holy cow, I spent a whole lot of time on this activity that got, like, fours in my ratings, and it's not even all that necessary." So that's informative in itself. Maybe reallocate that, what I would say is wasted time, into time that is more joyful in which you now know what types of activities those are, because you have the data right there in front of you.

   5. CWChris Williamson9:35

      Is there

4. 9:36 – 14:48

   Is Happiness Better Experienced or Remembered?

   1. CWChris Williamson9:36

      anything interesting about happiness differences between experienced and remembered activities or events?

   2. CHDr Cassie Holmes9:44

      There is, um, and, but again, I'm going for the ones that have the double, uh, that provide on both. And what's nice about the time tracking that you do for yourself is that as you're coming out of the experience, it's capturing both how you felt in it 'cause it's really a sort of close memory, but also how you're feeling about... But, yes, research does pick up on TV watching, but interestingly (laughs) so, like, TV watching is shown to be quite mediocre on, um, sort of meaning, but on the average American, the average viewing of TV actually gets pretty high ratings. So there you see a disconnect. But what's cool about the individual, um, data that you collect, and I teach a course on this, so applying the science of happiness to life design. So over years I've had my MBA students and executive MBA students do this, and so I see these patterns from their observations. What's sort of interesting is TV rarely shows up among people's happiest activities and their, this sort of broad 10-point, uh, rating. But what's also interesting, you see, and you can see, like, actually, that first hour of TV is sort of fun, right? It's like after that long day of work and you pour yourself a glass of wine and you're settling into that first episode, it's totally delightful. But what happens often and what we see in, um, you know, our own time tracking data is that when we say yes to, uh, "Do you want to view the next episode?" and those evenings of binge-watching by hour two and three, actually your happiness ratings, even your enjoyment ratings have plummeted. Um, and so that also is really insightful being like, okay, and I can explain the psychology behind the fact that we get used to things over time. So hedonic adaptation is our psychological propensity to get used to stuff after doing the same thing over a continued period of time, doing the same thing...... repeatedly over time, spending time with the same person over time, we get used to those. So it has less of a emotional impact than it did initially. Now, it's good that we adapt in the face of bad stuff because it makes us resilient. It's less painful over time, we become more tolerant. But the bummer is that we also get used to good stuff. So, I mean, that explains why something that is, like, quote unquote enjoyable, like watching TV, initially, yes, it is fun, but over time, it stops having as strong of an impact. And so that has some implications for how we structure our time in terms of you should actually spread out the good activities so that that sort of initial starting, that intensity, um, uh, has as, as strong of an effect as possible. But it's not only over the course of hours within the day. It's also really important to recognize this in the days of our lives because s- I, you know, we were talking about, you know, a sort of m- m- the activity of watching TV, but think of something way more profoundly potentially joyful. And that is, like, spending time with the people you love and you think about the very first time that your partner said, "I love you," right? The impact of that is like fireworks in your, like, heart and mi- like, it's so impactful. But then those words, "I love you," over years get shortened to "love you" and you sort of say it as you're hanging up the phone or walking out the door. You don't even hear the words, like the meaning behind those words. And if something as profound as, like, a d- declaration of love is something that we get used to such that it stops having the same emotional impact, that is something to take into account and to try to offset in the happiness that we feel in our days, right? Again, that's what we want, is, like, to feel joy within our days and satisfied about our lives. And so some of the exercises and advice that I give based off of the studies is basically how do we not only figure out what activities to spend more time on and to maximize our time on, but also, how do we engage in those happiest activities so that we actually experience the happiness that is potentially there within that time that we're already spending and not miss out on

5. 14:48 – 21:44

   Strategies for Increased Happiness

   1. CHDr Cassie Holmes14:48

      it?

   2. CWChris Williamson14:49

      What are some of the strategies there other than, uh, I guess, chunking stuff down into smaller, more frequent exposures so that the hedonic slope doesn't drop off-

   3. CHDr Cassie Holmes15:00

      Yeah.

   4. CWChris Williamson15:00

      ... quite so quickly? What else can people do?

   5. CHDr Cassie Holmes15:02

      Yeah. So breaking it up, which is what you just said. So having breaks between, um, the happy activities. Infusing variety is another. So, um, research shows, for instance, that couples who engage in novel experiences together, um, report greater relationship satisfaction and, uh, last longer in their relationships, and it's because those novel experiences infuse variety. And so by doing various, like, different things together, it keeps you engaged, it keeps you paying attention, and you're sort of doing that with your partner. Another is recognizing that even though these things might seem every day, recognizing that they are not inevitably going to continue happening every day. Our time is finite and when you actually recognize just how limited times left are, that absolutely draws our attention. And so one of the exercises which is actually quite poignant is if you, uh, you know, reflect back on your last couple weeks and what was an activity that really brought you joy? Oftentimes it's these very mundane moments or, like, ordinary moments, um, and count, count how many times you have left and actually the first step is counting how many times have you done this activity in your life so far? Then count how many times do you have in your life left to do this activity, accounting for the fact that factors in your life are likely to change, accounting for the fact that if that joyful activity involves another person, circumstances of their life and their availability is gonna likely change. And then recognizing or counting, calculating really, the percentage of all your times of doing that activity you have left and so often we recognize that, "Holy cow, I have less than half." And in some cases, it's like 8%. Um, i- like one of the examples, um, I had my students, uh, do this exercise. One of the students, he calculated time spent, um, watching sports with his best friend on the couch and he calculated. So how many times has he done that in his life? I mean, it was a sort of funny exercise and he was, like, embarrassed and proud to, you know, including all those days after school, in middle school, in high school, but then they went off to college and then it was, like, Christmas breaks for two weeks on and, you know, they would be on the couch watching TV and sports together. But then they continued living in different cities and had a girlfriend and so then it was like visits included partners, and then the, his best friend had us a two-year-old. So even when they visit each other, being able to spend some hours on the couch with just his buddy watching sports s-... like, they are very limited. And doing that calculation, he realized that in his life, he has only 8% of times on his couch watching, whether it's his couch or his friend's couch, basically watching sports with his buddy, left. And that is really impactful. So, what does that make you do? Well, it makes you prioritize that time. So, actually during the break of that class, he went out and called his buddies like, "Dude, we need to, um, plan a guys' weekend." Um, but also during that time, it makes you savor and soak up that time more. Um, and I share in the book, um, my calculation with my coffee dates with my daughter. And this, these coffee dates are so, like, (laughs) it actually was born out of a very functional thing of me needing caffeine and stopping at a coffee shop on my way to drop her off and into my office, and she's tagging along as the little preschooler. But what we did, and this is another strategy to keep paying attention, is turning a routine into a ritual. And so this ritual that my daughter and my coffee date, we gave it a name, Thursday morning coffee dates. And now even though it, we've shifted, had to shift it to Saturday mornings, we still call it our Thursday morning coffee date. And we, like, listen to the same songs, we order the same things, and it is just this special time, 30 minutes each week for the two of us to be together. And I calculated how many times have we had a coffee date together in the past. And including during my maternity leave where I'd, like, sort of bundle her up and take her to the coffee shop, 'cause that was my, like, source of sanity. And then our weekly coffee dates, I calculated that we've had about 400 coffee dates together in our life so far, and then I calculated how many do we likely have left. So, she's seven. In about, what, five years sh- she's gonna be 12 and wanna go to the coffee shop with her friends instead of me. Sad. So, the w- that's gonna limit it, and then she's gonna go off to college and probably live, you know, across the country. And so I calculated we probably have about 230 coffee dates together left. That is 35% of our coffee dates left. That's less than half, quite a bit less than half, and she's only seven. So, what is that? What's the impact on that? Initially, y- like, yes, tear in my eye, but the bigger effect is that I prioritize this time. I make this time. So, when it was on Thursday mornings, meetings were scheduled around it. They didn't start before 9:00. Now that it's shifted to Saturday, uh, mornings, activities are scheduled around it. But not only is it about prioritizing that time, it is when I'm spending that time knowing just how limited and precious those moments are, then I remove distractions. So, like, my phone goes away. That, like, constant to-do list that is running through my mind of always like, "Okay, what do I need to do next? Like, what's coming up in that planning?" gets quieted because this is the time of my life. This is, these are the important moments, um, and recognizing that they're limited makes us pay more attention.

6. 21:44 – 28:31

   Choose Importance Over Urgency

   1. CWChris Williamson21:44

      I got a Memento Mori calendar that counts down to 80. Have you seen these? And it's in weeks of your life.

   2. CHDr Cassie Holmes21:52

      Oh, I haven't, but I've seen them- Yeah.

   3. CWChris Williamson21:54

      So, you can imagine. You actually buy it pre-filled in. So, you tell them your age and they pre-fill in the first whatever, like, 50 multiplied by your, or 52 multiplied by your age in terms of squares. And, um, that I guess is, is kind of similar because you're looking at w- what is it that I've got left? Thing that comes to mind when you're talking about that is the relationship between a child and the parent, that you spend 18 years or whatever living out of each other's pockets, and for the last portion of that, those teenage years just hating each other and constantly having arguments and storming up the stairs and f- feeling like you're in a prison, and then you leave. And in retrospect, I mean, it must be, in terms of hours spent with your parents, almost all people in the Western world must be looking at the final 10%. Like, at the age of 18.

   4. CHDr Cassie Holmes22:44

      Yeah.

   5. CWChris Williamson22:45

      At the age of 18, you've spent 90% of the time that you're ever going to spend with your parents again. Maybe even less, I guess.

   6. CHDr Cassie Holmes22:51

      Mm-hmm.

   7. CWChris Williamson22:51

      Uh, I recently took my mom to Rome. She hadn't been away on holiday for ages and I wanted to do something nice. And, uh, me and her went away to Rome and we spent four days, four and a tiny bit of days together, and I put her in a sidecar (laughs) and I did a, I made her do a Vespa tour around Rome-

   8. CHDr Cassie Holmes23:08

      (laughs)

   9. CWChris Williamson23:08

      ... in a motorbike and sidecar and put it, and it looks like Wallace and Gromit. It's the funniest thing.

   10. CHDr Cassie Holmes23:14

       (laughs)

   11. CWChris Williamson23:14

       And, uh, th- that was me, one of the things I was very conscious of there was, wow, I haven't spent this much time around my mother in 15, 7, 16 years.

   12. CHDr Cassie Holmes23:27

       Yeah.

   13. CWChris Williamson23:28

       16 years since I've spent four days, and are four days. Like, it's not that long.

   14. CHDr Cassie Holmes23:33

       Totally.

   15. CWChris Williamson23:33

       And yeah, I, I like the idea of starting with the end in mind, of using the precariousness of what it is that we've got. And also the other thing, I suppose, is that even without working out how many, accurately working out how many of these things you've got left, life situations can change pretty rapidly. And the housemate that you live with now might not live with you again in six months time. I, I love watching a series on TV with one of my housemates that's back in the UK, but I live in Austin now, and I didn't know that I was going to live in Austin. I was gonna try it out and see if I enjoyed it, and now I'm here.... and, you know, there will be... I mean, Sam Harris talks about this as well, there will be a last time that you bounce your baby daughter on your knee. You know, there will be a... she will get too big or not want to do it anymore or some situation will occur. This could be the last time, this could be the final time that you get to be abroad with your mother, that you get to be on the couch with your friends shit talking the world's greatest athletes as they-

   16. CHDr Cassie Holmes24:36

       (laughs)

   17. CWChris Williamson24:36

       ... (laughs) perform as well as they can. And, yes, I think adding a, a sense of seriousness, like-

   18. CHDr Cassie Holmes24:46

       Absolutely.

   19. CWChris Williamson24:47

       ... this, this has important consequences. This isn't something that should be taken lightly. If it's- if you're deriving this much pleasure from something, you should take it seriously because you take shit seriously that means nothing.

   20. CHDr Cassie Holmes25:00

       That's right.

   21. CWChris Williamson25:00

       You take shit seriously all the time that is completely arbitrary. A d- argument with a stranger on the internet that you're never going to think about again, you took that more seriously than the activity today that gave you the most joy. And, yes, I like the idea of all of that, creating perspective, scarcity, understanding the scarcity, understanding the lack that you have, uh, reflecting on what's, uh, how important it is to you and using that as a projection to remind yourself of the scarcity moving forward.

   22. CHDr Cassie Holmes25:29

       Totally.

   23. CWChris Williamson25:29

       I think all of that's great.

   24. CHDr Cassie Holmes25:31

       Yeah. And what you're picking up on is so... it's that sort of difference between what's important versus what seems urgent. And we tend to dedicate our time and our thoughts to what is urgent irrespective of its importance. And yet, what... by thinking about recognizing the preciousness, the limited nature, the finite nature of the time we have with these people we love, doing these things that we love, that increases the urgency. It makes it to recognize how urgent it is. And interestingly in our research, we find actually that people who think about their time from a broader perspective, so are thinking in terms of their years and their life overall instead of just thinking hour by hour, they actually are happier and report greater meaning in their life. And one of the drivers is because they spend their hours on what's important irrespective of its urgency. And so it gives you, you used the term perspective, absolutely it does that. So, taking that perspective of your life and from taking that broader life perspective, it pulls out what is important to you. So, in Happier Hour, I have a few exercises that do encourage not just counting times left, but to take this broader life perspective. And some of them are quite poignant, but they're so important because they're so clarifying. So, one of them, for instance, is, uh, writing your eulogy. This is... and some of my students, I will say, are like, "What? I thought this was a happiness class and you're having me (laughs) write my own eulogy?" And so what this exercise is is basically projecting forward, assuming you live a long life, and writing down how do you want to be remembered. So, what are the words you want people to use to describe you? Um, what life do you want to have lived? And I point out to... one of my students was like, "I am sorry, professor, but I can't do this assignment. Like, thinking about my death in- creates too much anxiety. I'm gonna, like, forfeit my grid." I'm like, "Okay, let me reframe the exercise or the assignment for you. Write about the life that you want to live," because that's essentially what it is. It's not an exercise about death. It's about what life do you want to live. And writing that down and articulating clarifies what's important, what are your values, who do you want to be? And with that clarification, what is your purpose? Like, what are your ultimate goals? Mm-hmm.

   25. CWChris Williamson28:21

       With that, that even though it's thinking about years and life overall, that informs how we spend our upcoming hours, right?

   26. CHDr Cassie Holmes28:30

       Mm-hmm. Well, it's,

7. 28:31 – 32:31

   The Need for a Specific Goal

   1. CHDr Cassie Holmes28:31

      surely it's only in contrast of how we want to spend our time that we can look at the way we spend our time. Like, it- it's like a subtraction, okay? It's what- what is it that I want to achieve? What is it that I'm doing that's getting me toward achieving that? And that's not the lean in, go-getter, type A thing. It's I want to achieve a life which involves lots of outdoor activities and whatever, right? Yeah.

   2. CWChris Williamson28:55

      But you can only contrast those two if you have an end goal, if you have some sort of destination. I had Ryan Holiday on last week, and he was talking about how, uh, discipline without a destination is basically impossible because what are you being disciplined in service of?

   3. CHDr Cassie Holmes29:11

      Yeah.

   4. CWChris Williamson29:11

      Like, what is your discipline working towards? Perhaps your, your life goal in some alternate universe that was hell would be to spend as much time on TikTok as possible.

   5. CHDr Cassie Holmes29:20

      (laughs)

   6. CWChris Williamson29:20

      Well, discipline would involve you spending as much time on TikTok as possible, right? "I want to be the most- watch the most number of hours of TikTok of anybody on the planet. That's my life goal." It- it is only in comparison with the things that you want to do that you can look at discipline, and it kind of feels like the way that you spend your time is pretty much exactly the same.

   7. CHDr Cassie Holmes29:38

      Yeah. And the thing, um, that I actually see among my MBA students that I think that folks can all relate to is the importance... So, without your own clear sense of purpose, of your own goal and what you're striving for, then we pick up on other people's goals, like these general notions of success. And those general notions of success, it's a terrible thing to be striving for because, A, it's so amorphous, it's so multi-dimensional, and a lot of it is extrinsically driven and not intrinsically. So, it's not what you ultimately care about. It's sort of like this general sense of, like, what you should do and what one does do. Um, and that is...... very difficult because, um, what, it's, it's not difficult. It, what it does do is it leads to unhappiness. Because (laughs) it's, like, A, the, the thing is, like, the goal, the post is always changing, right? It's like, this gen... Like, if success is having a lot of money, but then as you make more money, your reference point of how you're doing shifts because you're surrounded by people who also have more money or fame. You know, it's like you're surrounded by people who you're all of a sudden in, like, a different room, and you're like, "How am I doing compared to those around me?" Well, there's always someone doing better, right? But the value in, for you, identifying what matters to you and your own purpose and your own ultimate goals is that that is where, what you're talking about with this idea of, like, that's the comparison that should motivate you. It's like, if you're not aligned or, like, living out what you care about, then that should, you know, kick you in the butt and make you start working in line with that. But also it's, it's great because when you are achieving along that route, it is so much more rewarding, um, because it's, it's what you care about. Like, and you said, and, like, each step along the way, and actually going back to even thinking about activities and how we should be spending our time, in your time tracking, you know, there might be activities that aren't fun. So, there's those that are maybe wasted time, like the TikTok example is, like, you're spending a lot of time on it, it's not necessary nor is it very fun, but then there's also some of these activities that you're s- that are actually necessary for you to-

   8. CWChris Williamson32:27

      Well, that was s- that was something I noticed about your, your, your example. Uh, commuting

8. 32:31 – 36:46

   Bundling the Non-Negotiables

   1. CWChris Williamson32:31

      to work, uh, being at work, and housework.

   2. CHDr Cassie Holmes32:34

      Yeah.

   3. CWChris Williamson32:34

      U- for most people, those are relatively non-negotiable. That they're things-

   4. CHDr Cassie Holmes32:40

      Right.

   5. CWChris Williamson32:40

      ... that they can't outsource, they can't get someone else to go to work for them, they can't get someone to drive them to work, they can't get someone else to do the housework. So yeah, there has to be a solution in order to make these things less painful.

   6. CHDr Cassie Holmes32:52

      Yeah. So, there are. So, there are some strategies for the commuting, for instance, is something that you have to do. Um, and bundling is actually one of the strategies that coming out of research by Katy Milkman and her colleagues. It's such a simple idea, but it's very effective. And what it is, is like, you take this activity that you don't want to do but is necessary, like driving to work or commuting, however, whatever it means, or, like, folding the laundry, you know, we have household chores, and bundling it with an activity that you do enjoy that is more worthwhile. So, whether it's picking up the phone, we talked about the role of social connection, picking up the phone and calling your friend while you're folding the laundry or commuting, or listening to a wonderful, enriching, enlightening podcast. (laughs)

   7. CWChris Williamson33:40

      Right here. Subscribe below. Thank you, Cassie. Start your shill, shill, shill the channel. That's what you're here for. Thank you. Yes.

   8. CHDr Cassie Holmes33:45

      (laughs) Exactly. But I mean, like, joking aside, absolutely. So all of a sudden instead of, like, oftentimes during a commute when someone's driving flipping through the radio mindlessly or if they're on the Tube or Subway, um, flicking through their TikTok and instead of, if instead of that sort of filling of time if you spent that time intentionally listening to a podcast where you learn something, that you're inspired by, then all of a sudden that time that you're just sort of trying to get through of the commute all of a sudden become, feels more worthwhile and enriched.

   9. CWChris Williamson34:24

      Let me give you my most recent bundling solution. So-

   10. CHDr Cassie Holmes34:28

       Great.

   11. CWChris Williamson34:29

       ... I have quite a lot of emails that I need to deal with and I, I can't really outsource them, or maybe I just struggle at delegating control. My personal assistant might, might agree with that. Um, I bought an exercise desk which is a recumbent stationary bike that has a flat, it's built, it's purpose-built, right, and you put the laptop on top of it. There's something called zone two cardio which is cardio between around about 110 to 130 BPM heart rate for most people. And-

   12. CHDr Cassie Holmes34:57

       Okay.

   13. CWChris Williamson34:57

       ... it's actually kind of hard to achieve because it's not as quick as a run, a run would take you way over it, probably into the 140s, but it's quicker than a walk, so it's kind of difficult to work out how you're going to mediate this particular pace.

   14. CHDr Cassie Holmes35:08

       (laughs)

   15. CWChris Williamson35:09

       And it's also, you have to do it for quite a while. You need to accumulate around about 180 minutes per week if you want to get the, a very good impact. But it's the train slow to run fast, blah, blah, blah. Tons of health benefits, longevity and heart rate variability and resting heart rate and blah, blah, blah. Uh, but it's really hard to do. Emails also suck. So now when I do my emails, I just sit on the bike. I set it away for an hour. I have, um, I've got Parkinson's law going on, so I've restricted down my time to have a goal, and I'm like, "Right, I'm gonna-"

   16. CHDr Cassie Holmes35:37

       Yeah.

   17. CWChris Williamson35:37

       "... gotta get my thing done." So I've got 60 minutes and I know and I can see it counting down or whatever, I'm gonna get the cardio in that I would have kind of, it's, it's satisfying, it does make me feel good, but it's not, it, it would be really awful to do on its own, and yet I take so much pleasure from doing it while I do my s-

   18. CHDr Cassie Holmes35:54

       (laughs)

   19. CWChris Williamson35:54

       ... my emails. It's insane. And then I get my emails finished. And I actually, I genuinely look forward to doing emails 'cause I'm like, "Oh, I'm gonna go get a bit of cardio in and get a nice sweat on. I'm gonna feel really good once I've finished up."

   20. CHDr Cassie Holmes36:04

       (laughs)

   21. CWChris Williamson36:04

       So, I, I, I'm aware that that's, that's like the most n- hyper nerdy solution, uh, to this. But also listening to podcasts on your commute is a, is, is another one.

   22. CHDr Cassie Holmes36:14

       I, I, I am very appreciative of this, um, suggestion though because email is my source of least happiness. Um, and so if I'm, if there's a way to bundle it to make it-

   23. CWChris Williamson36:26

       360 bucks will get you an Exa- Exawork Exadesk 2000i and it will change your life.

   24. CHDr Cassie Holmes36:33

       Oh my gosh.

   25. CWChris Williamson36:34

       And then you can hang clothes on it when you're not using it as well. It's fantastic.

   26. NANarrator36:37

       (laughs)

   27. CWChris Williamson36:38

       (laughs)

   28. CHDr Cassie Holmes36:39

       (laughs) Talk about a persuasive advertisement. Yeah.

   29. CWChris Williamson36:42

       I, I have not even sponsored-

   30. CHDr Cassie Holmes36:43

       (laughs)
9. 36:46 – 43:34

   How to Deepen Friendships

   1. CWChris Williamson36:46

      you've brought up a couple of times here the importance of social connection. You mentioned intimacy, which is presumably like relationship partner stuff as well.

   2. CHDr Cassie Holmes36:53

      Mm-hmm.

   3. CWChris Williamson36:53

      How can people develop their friendships and deepen their friendships? Because one of the things that I hear a lot is a difficulty in people finding friends, especially guys, I think, when they get into adulthood. You know, you don't have the same structures that maybe through school, through uni, um, sports teams, stuff like that. I think guys, especially when they get married, there's a ton of evidence that suggests they just adopt the friends of their partner and that's now their friend group. But even that starts to dwindle over time as well. Um, so what about deepening friendships? What are some of the strategies people can use to do that?

   4. CHDr Cassie Holmes37:31

      Yeah. And so there's a exercise in, um, my... That I, I share in the book and that I have my students do, which is called the relationship closeness induction task. But basically what it is, it is a series of questions. And this, this takes 15 minutes, and I will loop back to how this, um, can be implemented to sort of forge friendships. Um, it's a s- it's, it's a 15-minute task. So basically it starts with, um, I think it's, like, three minutes that i- and in these questions, you, like, you're paired up. I pair my students up and they have two minutes to ask a question. They ask a question, the person answers it, and then the other person an- asks the same question and they answer it. So it's reciprocal. Um, and then the first two minutes is like these, what you talk about when you meet someone, like, "What's your name? What made you decide to come," in this case it's like, "to UCLA to get your MBA?" Um, you know, "Where are you from?" These things that, you know, are those initial get to know you conversations. But then I'm like, "Okay guys, now move on to the second set of questions." And the second set of questions are a little bit more self-disclosive. So they are like, "What do you like to spend your time on? Like your hobbies and your experiences." Um, so you get to hear about the other person's experiences and how they spend their time. And then the last set of questions, uh, they have eight minutes, um, to go through and these are deeper. These are like, "What are you most proud about in your life? What is your happiest childhood memory? What is your greatest fear?" And these questions aren't just about how you spend your time, it's really your emotional experience in your life. And this is a method that's been shown to make people feel significantly closer and like they are more like friends at the end of it even though it's 15 minutes. But what it's doing is based off of reciprocal escalating self-disclosure. So what that means is that it is sharing and asking and listening. So it has to be not just you, like, dumping, like, "Oh my god, this is my biggest fear and this is what I'm really struggling with." But also asking the other person and listening, what is, "What are you struggling with?" And through that what friendship is, it's about this sense of being known and being cared about and knowing and caring. So there is that reciprocal, um, feature of it. And so in, you know, like you were talking about, w- often in shared experiences when we're in experiences together that's an opportunity to develop that sort of shared experience. Like when you go to college or university, um, that shared experience starting a new job together, um, often, you know, with all of us or so many of us working remotely, actually the opportunity to develop actual friendship at work has really waned. And that's what I am attributing the increased disengagement from work, um, that we've, uh, observed in the workforce. Um, to the fact that folks don't have friends and not an opportunity. So, to say that yes, it is about finding activities that you, you know, like people who like doing the same thing, but just showing up and doing the activity together isn't gonna be where the real friendship comes from. It's from having that conversation, that conversation that gets authentic and you are being vulnerable and you are supporting the other person and their vulnerability. So, to, to the point, (laughs) be ready to ask the good questions when you're hanging out with someone and also be re- willing to share. Note that not... (laughs) Sometimes you need that escalating sort of component of the conversation so that you don't, like, freak people out. Um, but it's, uh, it's always surprising by how happy people are to really get genuine. Um, and so it's just up to you to be willing to get there too.

   5. CWChris Williamson42:18

      Didn't your husband ask you some insanely-

   6. CHDr Cassie Holmes42:20

      Yes. (laughs)

   7. CWChris Williamson42:20

      ... intense questions the first, the first time that you met?

   8. CHDr Cassie Holmes42:23

      Yeah. So I share that, um, in the book. Um, my husband and I, he is, I mean, he's such a wonderful person and he, he's like my favorite conversation partner still to this day. And we were set up on a blind date.... over coffee (laughs) and he, like, his first question was like a very last one in those relationship closeness induction task. He was like, "What to you is the secret, or not the secret, like what are you striving for, for like a happy, good life?" And I'm like, "Oh, wait, what about like what are my hobbies and what made me decide to come to Stanford?" Um, he skipped all of that and it was so refreshing. And so coming out of even that first coffee date, I was like, "Wow." (laughs) "I feel like I know someone and am a little bit known, um, by this stranger." And so I think that that, that is an example that is, has proven well for me in terms of, um, establishing a really beautiful relationship.

10. 43:34 – 47:08

    Society’s Lack of Conversation

    1. CWChris Williamson43:34

       I think a lot of people have problems at the moment with the shallow sort of nature of conversations that they have. I think it's another reason why podcasts have got so much popularity because you get to kind of almost hear sometimes conversations that you wish that you could have a little bit more. I mean, I-

    2. CHDr Cassie Holmes43:51

       Yeah.

    3. CWChris Williamson43:51

       ... I know for me there's, the reason that I enjoyed starting this show four and a half years ago, 500 and something episodes ago-

    4. CHDr Cassie Holmes43:58

       (laughs)

    5. CWChris Williamson43:58

       ... is because I was struggling to have the frequency and depth of conversation that I wanted and if I was able to do it on the podcast, you have an excuse to kind of bypass all of the, "So tell me about you and what did you have for breakfast and what are you up to tomorrow?" Like people don't expect that. They expect you to kind of pretty quickly get into the meat of the performance with this. And, um-

    6. CHDr Cassie Holmes44:20

       Yeah.

    7. CWChris Williamson44:21

       ... I, I, I think that m- you're right that the escalation, you, you're gonna turn some people off. But if you're the sort of person for whom you want to kind of speed through minutes one through ten and get into the final five, I, I think that that makes a lot of sense. And I think that more people than realize it would resonate with like a, a really interesting deep conversation. When I think about what most of my 20s is a very normal bloke in the UK just being a, a club promoter around a, a range of young people that were relatively outgoing and whatever, whatever, so few people had conversations like the ones that they wanted to, I think.

    8. CHDr Cassie Holmes45:01

       Yeah.

    9. CWChris Williamson45:01

       They had conversations that were very surface level, that were about d- TV or current events, but not important current events, just like... And I think that, uh, that might just be a byproduct of being young, right? It might just be a byproduct of being in your 20s. I don't know.

    10. CHDr Cassie Holmes45:16

        I don't think so. I think that, um, those are the types of conversations that generally are had in social settings, like social settings with their groups. So actually touching back to the time tracking exercise that I suggest folks do, the reason that I say it's so important to not just sort of write socializing as your activity, but actually who are you with and also going back and looking at, okay, well what were those activities that I felt like most connecting? And that might be like sh- for some, for me, it absolutely requires a genuine conversation. And, but that genuine conversation can happen in a lot of different contexts. It can happen with a colleague at work. It can happen with, um, like someone at a cocktail party as I am only satisfied when I leave one of these sort of cocktail parties if I come out and I'm like, "Oh my God, I got, that person was so cool and so interesting." But, so it's like finding those ways, those activities and, but also the pieces of that activity that, uh, um, that sort of make you feel most connected so that it's, the onus is on you not only to put yourself, spend time on those activities that make you feel that way, but really make that time what you want it to be, um, by showing up, having, driving the conversation. And I agree with you, people are more willing than they might initially think. Um, it's just because it doesn't often happen doesn't mean that it won't be fun. (laughs)

    11. CWChris Williamson47:02

        Yeah.

    12. CHDr Cassie Holmes47:02

        And that, you know, and just give it a, give it a shot. Um...

    13. CWChris Williamson47:07

        Talk

11. 47:08 – 58:05

    Time Poverty Vs Time Affluence

    1. CWChris Williamson47:08

       to me about the time poverty and time affluence relationship.

    2. CHDr Cassie Holmes47:13

       Yeah. So time poverty is what actually drove me (laughs) to write the book, um, and what it is is this acute feeling of having too much to do and not enough time to do it. And when we feel like we don't have enough time, it's this really limiting, um, experience and it is experienced as stress and it makes us unhappy and it also makes us less healthy. So research shows that when people feel, um, like they're, they don't have enough time, they're less likely to exercise, they're less likely, they delay going to the doctor. Um, it also makes us less nice, um, we are less likely to slow down and help others out, um, and it makes us less confident in being able to achieve all we set out to do because of the sense of limitation and it makes us less happy. And I, uh, I, I share as, uh, to open the book, this time earlier in my career when I was living in Philly, um, and I was an assistant professor at Wharton and had given... It was just one of these crazy days where I, um, traveled up to New York to give a talk and this, my presentation was sandwiched in between back-to-back meetings and then I had this colleague dinner and then I was rushing to get the very last train that would get me home to my four-month-old at the time and my husband asleep in Philly.... and I did make the train, but I remember, like, looking out the window as, like, the night was passing by and the houses were, like, in this blur. And I was like, "I don't know if I can keep up. There's just, I am exhausted and overwhelmed between the pressures of work, being a good partner, being a good parent, being a good friend." Like, the never-ending pile of chores, there simply weren't enough hours in the day to get it all done, let alone to do any of it well, let alone to enjoy any of it along the way. And that feeling made me, at that moment, think, "Okay. The solution is to quit." (laughs) I should quit my job that I'd worked so hard to get, um, because surely if I move to a sunny, you know, slow-paced island somewhere, I'd be happy. If I had a whole lot more time, I was like, "Then I will be happier." But before I quit, I was (laughs) like, "This is actually an empirical question." Like, are people who have a whole lot more time happier? And this is a question that we've gone on to test, and looking at with, um, some of my beloved collaborators, Hal Hershfield and Marissa Schreef, we looked at what's the relationship between the amount of discretionary time people have and their life satisfaction? And analyzing i- across studies, in one of the studies we analyzed data from tens of thousands of working as well as non-working Americans, calculating how much discretionary time they had in their days, time spent on discretionary activities. And what we found was really interesting, it was this upside down U shape, so sort of reaching down to unhappiness on both sides. On the one hand, on the left side, with too little time people are less happy. That is the time-poor. That is me on the train. Um, but what was interesting was o- on the other side, the, you also saw this downward slope to unhappiness, and so it suggested that there's actually such thing as having too much discretionary time. And in digging into that, what it turns out is, like, people are driven to be productive. That is, we are averse to being idle when we spend days upon days with all of our hours and nothing to show for the, how we spent those hours. It undermines our sense of purpose, and with that we feel dissatisfied. And so this is really important to recognize that, and actually in, in the middle of that upside down U, it's pretty flat. So, it's not about how much time you have, it's really with the conclusion from this, and I, is what drove the book, it's not actually about how much time you have available to spend how you want, it is how you spend the time that you have available. So, it's not about being time-rich, it's about making the time that you spend rich. It's about, as we've said, identifying what are those activities that are really worthwhile? And when you're spending your time on those activities, being fully engaged, not being distracted, so that you get the happiness that is available in that activity. And, um, so th- when I'm saying time-rich, it's about looking back on your day and feeling fulfilled, not about not being busy, 'cause you can actually be quite busy. But if you've spent time on things that felt worthwhile, then you don't feel depleted, you feel fulfilled and satisfied, and that's the goal. And so that's actually what motivated or sort of directed my research agenda since, of like, okay, how should we be investing the hours of our days so that, again, at the end of the day instead of feeling depleted and stressed and overwhelmed and unhappy, you look back and you feel satisfied and fulfilled and, like, excited for the next day to do, to do more, right? And so the, with so many people feeling time-poor, so we conducted a national poll, um, in the US finding that nearly half of Americans feel like they don't have enough time, um, to do what they set out and want to do. Um, and that's bad because of all those reasons that I said. Um, but actually we have more time available to us than we think, and when we spend th- that time in ways that feel really worthwhile, that gives us energy, that lessens the sense of constraint and limitation, and actually that increased, um, sense of efficacy of being able to accomplish what you set out to do increases your sense of how much time you feel like you have available. And when I'm talking about time available, this is hours within your days, not what we were talking about at the very beginning of, like, the limited nature of your life.

    3. CWChris Williamson54:00

       Mm. You talk about this discretionary time, am I right in thinking that the bottom end where things stop being bad was about one hour and the top end when things start to get bad again is five hours? Is that the bracket?

    4. CHDr Cassie Holmes54:14

       Um, it's two-

    5. CWChris Williamson54:16

       Two to five.

    6. CHDr Cassie Holmes54:16

       ... hours and five hours. So, with less than approximately two hours of discretionary time, at least in the dataset, the American Time Use Survey data, then we saw that sort of drop off in happiness. And more than approximately five hours is where we saw that drop off in happiness. Now, interestingly for some, and I will admit for me at the time, I was like, "Two hours sounds like a luxury. There's no way two hours is, like, in the day to, you know, spend on discretionary activities." But then when I actually calculated the hours of my days that I spend doing what I love, like-... cuddling with my little, you know, my little baby, having dinner with my husband, that wonderful conversationalist that I've already referenced. Um, having a c- giving a call to my best friend on my walk home. You know, we talked about, yes, commuting is bad, but when I'm talking to one of my favorite people, that, those, those minutes added up to about, like, an hour and a half of time that I wouldn't have wanted to spend in any other way. And that's helpful because it suggests that, in fact, two hours isn't totally out of reach. Um, but it does require being intentional about the time. It does require, um, particularly if you do work full time and have other demands, it does require, um, sifting out that wasted time, that sand, that, the sort of TikTok time-

    7. CWChris Williamson55:53

       (laughs)

    8. CHDr Cassie Holmes55:54

       ... (laughs) or what, uh, you can identify for yourself what that wasted time is for you. It does require minimizing the waste so that you do and prioritize and make the time for the stuff that really matters to you.

    9. CWChris Williamson56:09

       I think a lot of people when first faced with this will probably have a little bit of, of difficulty because they'll confuse a comfortable or convenient activity for an enjoyable one.

    10. CHDr Cassie Holmes56:19

        Yes.

    11. CWChris Williamson56:19

        So they'll finish up at the end of the work day and get home and, "Well, the way that I relax is by watching Netflix for a couple of hours on an evening with a glass of wine." You go, "I, I understand, but what else? Is, is there something else that you could be doing which would be more enjoyable?" And because it's less comfortable or convenient, it's presumed as being, like, more work. "Oh, well, I've just finished work, I don't want to have to go and do more work." It's like, okay, look. Objectively, would you prefer to spend your evening going out and seeing your friends or going and playing a new sport or whatever it is that you, whatever the thing is that you want to do, as opposed to this thing which is just the path of least resistance? What would you tomorrow have wanted you today to have done? Like, would you, are you going to look back tomorrow on the way that you spent your evening watching yet another shit Netflix series with yet another very average glass of wine, or would you get much more enjoyment both in the moment and in retrospect had you have gone to go and see your friends? That was the biggest thing. It was Laura Vanderkam, four and a bit years ago, who taught me about the experiencing, anticipating, and remembering self, and just having that model in my mind has changed... Like, I go and do so much stupid s- (laughs) stupid, uh, novel stuff because I think, "Well, if I do this, it, even if it's completely terrible, I've got an awesome memory that's going to stay in my mind, and that's going to expand the units that I'm gonna have that'll make my life feel like it goes longer," and all the rest of the stuff. So yeah, I think getting past the mistaking a comfortable or convenient activity for an enjoyable one, I think that's a really important thing, especially for people that are super, super busy, spent a long day at work, get the kids up earlier in the morning, so on and so forth. Um, so

12. 58:05 – 1:12:20

    Relationship Between Time & Money

    1. CWChris Williamson58:05

       going on from that, how do you think people should think about the relationship between time and money? Because that, for most people, is a, um, hugely-

    2. CHDr Cassie Holmes58:17

       Yeah.

    3. CWChris Williamson58:17

       ... correlated, uh, situation.

    4. CHDr Cassie Holmes58:20

       Yeah, and even before we get to the time and money, um, sort of interaction, I, I think that the time tracking exercise is, uh, the reason it's so powerful is to combat exactly what you're talking about, this general notion that people have of like, "Oh, I enjoy watching TV because that's sort of what I do." But if you actually have the data in front of you and it's like, well, not really. Like, it is the path of re- least resistance. I mean, that happens to be what you are mindlessly doing. It sort of fills your week.

    5. CWChris Williamson59:00

       Defaulting to it.

    6. CHDr Cassie Holmes59:00

       Yeah. But it doesn't mean that it's actually what you enjoy doing, and if you're picking up on like, you know, like, the, and this, and, and what comes out is like people are like, "Oh, I don't have time to meet up with my friend, my sister for dinner," but in fact, you do. (laughs) Like, instead of going back home and getting on the couch and that sort of, uh, default, is, it's, it's not work. Like, text your sister and be like, "Let's meet up." And then when you do and you're out, you're like, "That gets a 10 instead of the, you know, 4 of, like, that third hour of Netflix," right? And so with that objective numerical data that is v- your very own right there in front of you, then that is what helps motivate and kickstart into spending time in these ways that are really impactful. And to your point and Laura's point and actually, like, going back to my example with my coffee date with my daughter, the effect on happiness carries over beyond just the time that you're spending, right? So there's that anticipation of it. So like, I look forward to my coffee date with my daughter. She looks forward to it. And then when we're in it, we're spending it, so it's like 30 minutes of delectable, like, sweetness, but then we remember it and we talk about it. And if you ask me how happy I am, I am like, genuinely so happy because again, what is happiness? It's thinking about our time and our lives. And when you ask me how happy I am, I'm like pulling. It's like, "Well, I have this amazing relationship with my daughter," from really this, like, s- like, cultivate and stemming from that 30 minutes. It's just 30 minutes. Unfortunately because I work...... I, I don't know if it's unfortunately. I don't ... Anyway, I don't pick up my kids from school at 3 o'clock every day like, (laughs) you know, many parents do, 'cause I can't. I, I work. But that doesn't mean just because I'm not spending that time, these coffee dates are really this quality time that color not only how I experience the week, but my relationships. And from that is where the happiness, um, comes from. Um, to your question of time and money, um, my dissertation work was actually looking at what's the effect of focusing on time versus money, um, as our critical resource, and, um, what ... My studies over the cour- in lots of different ways have shown that those who focus on time, um, as their critical resource are happier, and really it is because they invest their time more intentionally. It's not default evenings. It is not allowing your time to be soaked up, um, by Tik- on TikTok. It is about being intentional and spending time in ways that matter to you. Thinking about money, um, actually has, uh, its own effect and it, it sort of drives towards these extrinsic goals, whereas when you think about time, it's driving you to s- invest your time in these activities that are aligned with your intrinsic goals, your purpose. Now, it's not like money is bad because money can actually be spent to improve our time and the research that looks at what are the happiest ways of spending money (laughs) all, I mean, my interpretation of them, is that it's all about making your time better. So, it is outsourcing actually, so putting some money against ... Are, if there are activities or chores in your life that absolutely feel like a chore, um, and that are pulling you out of time that you can spend in these ways that are aligned with your goals of whether i- is investing and cultivating your relationships, investing in activities that really allow you to fulfill your purpose, then, um, then that is time well spent. Uh, and-

    7. CWChris Williamson1:03:30

       Pay someone to wash your car, pay someone to do the gardening, pay someone to perhaps come and do some laundry or something.

    8. CHDr Cassie Holmes1:03:38

       Yeah, but it doesn't even have to be so clear as, like, paying someone so that you don't have to do it. There are services now, like, the whole, like, deliver- like grocery shopping. So yes, you are paying someone to do the groceries or, um, delivery (laughs) servi- like meal services where it is like so they ... It saves you from doing the grocery shopping and the time cooking. A lot of it is prepped and so that, that is saving time. And yes, you are paying money. It is more expensive to have this meal delivery service than if you were to go and pick out the, you know, the produce and everything and put it together yourself. But what you've done is you've saved time and then you can spend that time in those ways. And so, this is l- it's like such a clear trade-off for, uh, me as a working mom, instead of leaving work early to go grocery shopping or coming home late, which is those precious hours with my kids before they go to bed, so then I'm grocery shopping and then, like, cooking, which I hate to do anyway, um, like, the meal service, it costs a little bit more money, but then I get that extra time at work that I need and then my evening is not cooking dinner and cleaning up dishes. It is sitting with my family and, you know, hanging out with my kids, helping them with their homework, hearing about their days, having that wonderful conversation with my husband. Um, so also, um, research looks at, uh, pro-social spending, uh, that spending money on other people actually makes us happier than spending money on ourselves. And of- and also, my work shows that giving experiential gifts versus material gifts, um, increases a sense of connection. Uh, the recipient feels closer to you. And so, pairing that together, as well as research showing that experiential purchases, like going out to dinner, going to a concert, going on vacation versus material purchases like buying a handbag or, I don't know, other material purchases (laughs) actually which, uh, tend to be material purchases, electronics, um, that people have greater happiness from their experiential purchases because they have the experience of spending that time, so it is time that you're spending, but you also have the memory. Oftentimes those experiences are shared. If you're giving an experiential gift like taking someone out to dinner, getting them tickets for a concert, that is a shared experience, um, versus buying yourself a handbag. So again, the sort of spending money in ways that buy you better time, more fulfilling time and connect you with other people and foster those, you know, relationships, um, that is money well spent. So it's not, and it's also ... I think it's super important to not ignore the fact that people who don't have enough money to satisfy their basic needs, yes, more money in the research shows leads to greater-... happiness, but actually what it's not, it's not greater happiness, it's reducing the unhappiness, the stress and the pressures of not being able to satisfy your needs.

    9. CWChris Williamson1:07:14

       That's very interesting. I mean, there's been so much, s- so much of the, um, over $70,000 per year, happiness starts to tail off. Then I had Seth Stephens-Davidowitz on at the start of the year, and he seemed to suggest that, um, for every increment of increase in, I want to say life satisfaction was the measurement rather than happiness, you needed to double the amount of money. So, in order for you to go from 70 to 140, you'd need to go from 140 to 280, and 280 to 560. Is there any legs to that when it comes to earning, the relationship between the money that you earn and your happiness or satisfaction in life?

    10. CHDr Cassie Holmes1:07:53

        Um, well, it is like, and actually it's going on that sort of diminishing returns. These things have less impact over time. I talked about the rule of hedonic adaptation, um, and so that's, that's a piece of it. It, it comes from adapting to your circumstances, and then you need all the more to have any effect on your experience, um, and so, yes. But the, and that's why it's so helpful to continue to come back to time and what matters to you and your purpose, because then it is absolutely continues to be rewarding when you are achieving along those dimensions as opposed to these external ones.

    11. CWChris Williamson1:08:40

        I suppose as well, it stops you from overshooting. Now, I'm around some pretty competent people in Austin, and a lot of them are going to be worth a hell of a lot of money within the next decade or so, right? I mean, we're in the city that Elon Musk lives in, so the opportunities-

    12. CHDr Cassie Holmes1:08:54

        (laughs)

    13. CWChris Williamson1:08:54

        ... the ceiling is limitless. And I think, thankfully, most of them have done enough self-work to be able to check themselves and go, "Hang on, just, just how much do I need to destroy myself in pursuit of an amount of wealth that's 10 times as much as the most amount of money that I would need per year in order to be happy?" And we were ta- I was talking to a friend over dinner about this last night, I was like, "Look, if, if I 10Xed my income, I genuinely don't know what I'd do." Like, wha- I, I buy a slightly nicer coffee on a morning on the days that I do have? Like, y- you know-

    14. CHDr Cassie Holmes1:09:32

        Yeah.

    15. CWChris Williamson1:09:32

        ... I'm sure that th- it would be great to fly private, and I'm sure it would be great to do the whatever and the other things, but I, I think that when it comes to a, a realistic expectation of what's going to happen in life, optimizing for time, optimizing for the experiences that, in retrospect, you know you're going to be glad that you've done just seems to be a much safer way to go about things. And then if the byproduct comes of you being worth 100 million in 10 years time, then fantastic.

    16. CHDr Cassie Holmes1:10:01

        Great, yeah.

    17. CWChris Williamson1:10:01

        But you know that you're optimizing for the things which actually matter-

    18. CHDr Cassie Holmes1:10:05

        Absolutely.

    19. CWChris Williamson1:10:06

        ... and all, everything else is just extra.

    20. CHDr Cassie Holmes1:10:09

        Absolutely. And that is, uh, you said it so directly, it's, it's not only a safer route to happiness, it's the direct route. Like, (laughs) it is, if you are investing your time on the things that matter to you, then you will be happier, you will be more satisfied. And it's not more is better, it is just being intentional and spending the time in ways that matter to you. And as you said, if, if money comes along with it, fantastic. Like, that's gravy. Um, and you do, and again, not, uh, ignoring the fact that you do need to be able to have enough money to satisfy your basic needs. It's so helpful to continue to sort of touch back to Maslow's hierarchy of needs, um, 'cause at the very base of it is you need, you have your physiological needs. You need food, shelter, safety, health. Those are your physiological needs. The very next, once those are satisfied, and you need money to put food on the table, to live in a safe place, um, uh, but once those basic physiological needs are met, then the next most fundamental need that we have is sense of connection and belonging, and that's where these relationships come into play. And then it's like, once you, like, are shored up and, like, make sure that you have strong relationships, then you sort of move into this confidence and self-actualization where it's these sort of more individual pursuits. But you do need enough money to, and, and, and, like, I, I have been doing the work long enough of, like, comparing time and money, and I, I am sensitive to, like, it's not that m- having any money doesn't matter, but having a whole lot more money also doesn't matter. (laughs)

    21. CWChris Williamson1:12:19

        Cassie Holmes,

13. 1:12:20 – 1:13:11

    Where to Find Dr Holmes

    1. CWChris Williamson1:12:20

       ladies and gentlemen. If people want to keep up to date with the stuff that you do, where should they go?

    2. CHDr Cassie Holmes1:12:24

       Um, my website, cassiemhomes.com. Um, and then my book. I mean, it pulls it all together, um, these learnings based off of my career of research and teaching the course for years, um, and seeing the effects. And so I'm so excited, um, to bring these learnings to people more generally and make people happier with their time.

    3. CWChris Williamson1:12:48

       Thank you, Cassie.

    4. CHDr Cassie Holmes1:12:49

       I'm excited.

    5. CWChris Williamson1:12:49

       I appreciate you.

    6. CHDr Cassie Holmes1:12:50

       Thanks so much for having me.

    7. CWChris Williamson1:12:52

       What's happening, people? Thank you very much for tuning in. If you enjoyed that episode, then press here for a selection of the best clips from the podcast over the last few weeks, and don't forget to subscribe. Peace.

Episode duration: 1:13:11