EVERY SPOKEN WORD
115 min read · 22,510 words- 0:00 – 0:22
Intro
- DPDaniel Pink
People who are healthy, people who learn and grow and progress see their lives in terms of redemption narratives. Not as perfect, but as better, as going in that kind of trajectory. And so when we think about these, our lives in narrative terms, we inevitably have to ask the question, okay, my life is a narrative. Am I the author of that narrative or am I a character in that narrative? (wind blows)
- 0:22 – 6:55
Modern Society’s Issue with Regret
- CWChris Williamson
What's modern society's problem with regret?
- DPDaniel Pink
Uh, we, we, we dismiss it as something that should be avoided rather than embrace it as something that can actually change our lives. Um, and I think it's part of a bigger problem with modern society in that we, we don't know how to deal with negative emotions. Uh, we think that negative emotions make us weak. We think that negative emotions are dangerous, when in fact negative emotions can make us strong and negative emotions can make us better, particularly our most common negative emotion, regret.
- CWChris Williamson
That's the most common negative emotion?
- DPDaniel Pink
Yeah. There's some interesting research starting in the 1980s, um, where they, uh, s- uh, a social scientist named Susan Simanoff, who did research i- in, in the US where she recorded everyday conversations among people. And then they took the transcript of these conversations and they coded the conversations for the emotions that were expressed. The most common negative emotion people expressed is regret. The second most common emotion overall that people discuss is regret, th- the on- second only to love. So regret is, re- regret is an, is a ubiquitous emotion. Everybody has regrets. The only people who don't have regrets are people with some kind of, um, problem, people who have, uh, neurodegenerative disease or people who are sociopaths. Uh, otherwise everybody has regrets.
- CWChris Williamson
Why is it so common?
- DPDaniel Pink
Well, that's a great question, and, and I think that's the puzzle that, you know, I'd, I'd love your listeners to, to, to linger, have your listeners linger in their head for a little bit, because here you have this emotion that is unpleasant, right? Okay, so let's not... Regret, regret doesn't feel good. Regret feels bad. It feels bad. It's a negative emotion, and yet it's ubiquitous. So that's a great, that's a great way to frame the issue. Why is it hard to, wh- why is regret both hard to take and hard to avoid? And, and there's a little bit of a paradox here because you say, "Well, wait a second. We human beings are wired for pleasure. We seek pleasure. Why is, is something that's so unpleasant, so ubiquitous?" And the answer is, it's good for us. It helps, it's useful. It's there for a reason. And what we know from 50 years of science is that our cognitive machinery is pre-programmed for regret. Regret is actually an important and integral part of how our brains work. And so when we embrace this idea that we shouldn't have regrets, that we shouldn't look backward, that we should dismiss negative emotions, we are doing ourselves a grave misservice.
- CWChris Williamson
How's the brain programmed for regret?
- DPDaniel Pink
Well, you have to say, eh, eh, that's... Uh, the brain is programmed for regret because regret helps us learn. Okay? So, so just think about this. Let, let's, let's use, let's use an ana- let's use an analogy, all right? Imagine if, if we didn't... L- let's go to back to this big issue of negative emotions, okay? Imagine if we didn't have the emotion of fear. We wouldn't survive, right? You're in a... Your hotel is on fire. "Oh, I'm not scared of a burning building in New York City," and you end up melting in your, you know, your, your desk chair in some hotel, right? All right. Uh, um, you know, imagine, imagine a world without grief. Um, uh, which is a terrible emotion, right? But imagine if we didn't experience grief. The reason we experience grief is because we experience love, right? Grief is teaching us something. It tells us something, and regret teaches us. Regret, regret clarifies... I- it's, it's part of our cognitive machinery because regret, more than any other emotion in our life, clarifies what we care about and instructs us how to do better if we treat it right. We don't always treat it right.
- CWChris Williamson
Clarifies what we care about and instructs us to do better?
- DPDaniel Pink
Yes.
- CWChris Williamson
So it's, it's to do with... It's both a forward and back.
- DPDaniel Pink
Yeah. Well, it's, it's int- That's a great point. It's, it's both.
- CWChris Williamson
Yes.
- DPDaniel Pink
Okay? And, and those two things are inextricable. What regret does is that we look backward, feel the stab of negativity for something we did or didn't do, for a mis- for a decision we made or didn't make, all right? That stab of negativity clarifies what matters to us and instructs us about what we do next. And so... And, and it's a gr- it's, it's interesting you picked up on that because it's, it's, it's integral to our understanding of regret, and it's integral to understanding how, in some ways, majestic and extraordinary it is that we can experience regret. This is one reason why... The... Five-year-olds, for instance, don't experience regret because their brains haven't developed enough. With regret, let's, let's say, let's say that, um, let's say that, um, I regret... I don't know, give me a reg- I, I, I regret that I didn't, um, I, I regret that I didn't study, um, accounting when I was, when I was younger. Okay, so imagine I have that-
- CWChris Williamson
No one, no one has ever said that.
- DPDaniel Pink
(laughs) Okay, so give me something-
- CWChris Williamson
Philosophy. Philosophy.
- DPDaniel Pink
Give me, give me something oth- I regret... Okay, perfect. I regret... Okay, great. I regret that I didn't study philosophy when I was younger. Okay? So think about, think about what I had to do with that. First of all, I go back in time to when I was in university, which is 35 years ago, right? So I'm go- I'm already, I've already sort of cognitively gotten in a time machine, zip back there. I know what really happened there, but I'm also gonna use my incredibly inventive mind to negate what really happened. So I'm gonna... I'm, so I'm a fabulist too. I'm gonna tell an entirely new story where I studied philosophy, right? Then I'm not done. All right. Then I get back in my time machine and I zip to the present. Zip. All right. And I say, "Whoa, if only I'd studied philosophy..." And as I did in my recreated past, I've now arrived at a, at a present, but the present has been reconfigured because of my past decisions, and I'm now...... a more enlightened person. I'm now more attractive to women because I can talk about Hume and I can talk about Spinoza. Uh, I, I have a better sense of what my life is about, and, and, and so, and so, it's about time travel and fabulism, and it is incredibly cognitively sophisticated. Um, it is very hard for me to imagine another species doing that. I mean that very seriously. I think that we, we, we know, we're, we're, we're learning a little bit more about animal emotion and cognition. Um, and, and we know that, that, we, we know there are some animals that seem to experience grief. We know that most animals experience some kind of attachment and something akin to love. Uh, but regret, it's just too cognitively sophisticated. It's one of the things that makes human beings unique, and, and so why has it, why has it maintained? Why has it not been washed out through evolution? It's actually been enhanced through evolution because it's useful.
- 6:55 – 15:36
The Opposite of Regret
- DPDaniel Pink
- CWChris Williamson
What's the opposite of regret? Is it gratitude?
- DPDaniel Pink
No. I think the opposite of regret is, is maybe rejoicing. I think the opposite of to regret something is to rejoice it. To say, "Oh, I'm so glad I made that dec- I'm so glad I didn't study philosophy because I'd be a barista right now. I'm so glad I didn't-
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- DPDaniel Pink
... study philosophy because, because Schopenhauer had no idea what he was talking about." You know? "I'm so glad that I, I..." d- you know, that's, it's a re- it's a rejoicing.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah. It's interesting. I was just wondering why... Well, we have a negativity bias, and learning lessons from what's effective is important. But it's less effective, i- it's less important than learning the things that could have killed you or went, you know, terrifyingly wrong. So, I'm trying to think about how, if there's a scale or if, you know, if a little bit of rejoicing can dampen the pain of regret at all.
- DPDaniel Pink
Well, yes and no. I mean, there, there are things that you can do. Okay, so, so let's, let's take, let's take a step back. So, in the broad architecture of regret, there are often two kinds of regret: regrets of action and regrets of inaction. Regrets about what you did, and regrets about what you didn't do. All right? So, with action regrets, you can, you have some options. With an action regret, let's say that I have hurt somebody, I can try to make amends. I can try to make restitution. I can apologize. With certain action regrets, let's say, "Oh my gosh, I can't believe I painted my house orange." Well, you can repaint your house, um, a more congenial color. So, you can undo certain action regrets. The other thing you can do with action regrets, what you're hinting at, Chris, is that you can mitigate some of the pain by what I call at leasting them, which is, uh, and, and this is what I mean by that. Our ability to process regret is logicians, philosophers, uh, along with scientists, call, uh, counterfactual thinking. We can, we can, we can summon a world that runs counter to the actual facts, all right? And so there are different kinds of counterfactuals. You can do a, an upward counterfactual. Imagine how things could have been better, "If only I'd studied philosophy," all right? That makes you feel worse, but it makes you do better. You can also do a downward counterfactual. "Well, at least I studied accounting and I have a good job." Um, so you can do a downward counterfactual. This is the, the classic example of this is, is with, um, is why in the Olympics, um, bronze medalists are happier than silver medalists, routinely, if you look at their faces. Bronze medalists say, "Ah, at least I got a medal, unlike the schmoe who finished fourth." Silver medalists are saying, "Oh, if only I'd kicked a little harder, I'd have a gold medal," all right? So, so, so what we know, getting back to action and inaction regrets, is that with action regrets, we can at least them. We can say, and I have, and I've collected all these regrets from around the country, around the world rather, and you, you can say, "Oh, well, I, I regret marrying that idiot, but at least I have these three great kids." Um, and you can f- a- and the thing about these downward counterfactuals, these at leats, is that they make us feel better. They don't necessarily help us do better, but it's okay to feel better. I mean, sometimes that's actually useful.
- CWChris Williamson
What were the most common regrets that you found?
- DPDaniel Pink
Well, let me, instead of asking that question directly, let me stay on brand and give you a lengthy, discursive, and contextual preamble before answering the question. Um, so what I did is, on that one, is... So, in order to research this book, one of the things that I did is I looked at the academic research. I did my own public opinion survey, a quantitative survey of the US population, and then I also collected, um... In, in the book itself, we had 15,000. We're now over 18,000. 18,000 regrets from people all over the world. And what I found is that around the world, people have the same four core regrets over and over and over again, and they're less about the domains of peoples' lives than they are about something underneath that's going on there. So, let me give you one of those, these four core regrets to try to e- exemplify that. Um, I have a lot of regrets about people who regret, um, uh, not traveling, not traveling enough. Okay? So, that's like in a, in the sort of personal category. "Oh, I had a chance to go to Greece, but I didn't do it. I had a chance to t- I had a chance to study when I, uh, overseas when I was in university and I didn't take the chance." Okay? A lot of, a lot of people regret not studying abroad in university. All right? So, that's an education regret. Then I have lots and lots and lots and lots and lots and lots of regrets all over the world where someone regrets finding somebody attractive, wanting to ask them out, not doing it, and then regretting that, that, that, that chickening out. Okay? So, that's a romance regret. And then I have lots of regrets about people who say, "I stayed in this crappy job, but what I really wanted to do was start my own business, but I didn't have the guts to do it." That's a career regret. But to my mind, those are all the same regret. Those are a regret, you're at a juncture, you can play it safe, you can take the chance. You don't take the chance and you regret it. So, one category are boldness regrets, which are, "If only I'd taken the chance." Um, and then there's, there, there's three others that I'm happy to talk about, too.
- CWChris Williamson
And that's an inaction regret, that first one?
- DPDaniel Pink
... the boldness one is definite. Boldness is almost always an inaction regret. There, there, there are actually relatively few... It's an interesting question. There are relatively few people... I mean, again, I got this massive database of regrets. There are people who regret acting too bold, but they are the distinct minority. I would say there's a... I mean, I, I, I don't... 40:1 ratio, 50:1 ratio of people who regret, of between people who regret not acting bold enough and people who regret acting too bold.
- CWChris Williamson
It seems to me that-
- DPDaniel Pink
I mean, it's, it's overwhelming. It's overwhelming.
- CWChris Williamson
It seems to me like maybe, maybe adventure is, is kind of, like, a little bit of a common theme in that boldness stuff, that you're thinking about, like, this, "I- if only I'd been a little bit braver, maybe I would have had new experiences, seen new people, or had a different sort of life."
- DPDaniel Pink
I, I think it's partly adventure. I think that it is... I think there's even something bigger than adventure going on, Chris, and it's in, um, um, I'll, I'll, I'll see your, I'll see your adventure and raise you mortality. I, I think that at some level, all of us human beings are conscious that we're mortal, uh, that we're not here forever, but I do think-
- CWChris Williamson
So it's an existential thing.
- DPDaniel Pink
Yeah, I think that it is part... I, I think that it's partly existential. It's basically saying we are here on this planet for an astonishingly brief amount of time, so when am I gonna do something? When am I gonna see stuff? When am I gonna learn? When am I gonna grow? There's a, there's an emerging field in psychological science, uh, that, around the concept of something called psychological richness, that not only do we want a pleasant life, but we want a psychologically rich life, and which would include things like adventure. And I think that's what's driving that. I think that's what's driving the boldness regrets.
- CWChris Williamson
Well, I suppose the thing with the boldness regret is that if I've behaved this way in the past, I'm concerned that if I continue to behave this way in the future, as life continues to become less and less and less available, as we get older and we're getting closer toward death, that's where the existential thing comes in, right? It's like, "I did this thing in the past, and if I continue to do this thing in the future, as life gets even more sparse and there's even less life for me to have, I'm going to potentially fritter away more of my days not doing things that actually fulfill me existentially."
- DPDaniel Pink
I think you're spot on, and I have data to prove that becau- uh, on, on that. So the second piece of the, the research that I did was a, was a large, uh, public opinion survey, a quantitative survey of the US population. So, we surveyed 4,489 Americans, asking them all kinds of questions about regret and what it means and what they regretted. And, and what I was really looking for were demographic differences. Do men have different regrets than women? Do, um... And the demographic differences were much less pronounced than I would have expected, except on what you're talking about, and it's this. When we are young, say, in our 20s, people tend to have equal, roughly equal numbers of action regrets and inaction regrets. But as we age, it's all inaction. Not all, but it's, inaction regrets take over, for exactly the reason that you're saying, I think. It's that the finish line is a little bit closer, and people say, "Holy smokes, I still haven't done that. I gotta step up."
- CWChris Williamson
It's kind of common meme culture,
- 15:36 – 25:14
Painful Inaction & Moral Regret
- CWChris Williamson
you know, to talk about you're supposed to... Uh, you, you never regret the things that you do, only the things that you didn't do. I think I've seen that posted around on the internet a lot. I don't know, I don't know why... Uh, it's not true, it's not that you never do, but I don't know why people have picked up on that particular mechanic, that there is a skew toward inaction being more painful, or at least more prevalent than action.
- DPDaniel Pink
Yeah, um, it's, it's more prevalent. Uh, I'm not sure it's always more painful, but it's, but it's more prevalent. I mean, there are all kinds of reasons for that. Num- one of them is that, uh, as we were talking about earlier, is that with action regrets, you can actually... You can do something about them. So, you know, so I got a guy in the book who, uh, got a no re- a tattoo that said, "No regrets," then regretted it and got it removed, okay? So, that's a way of undoing. You know, like, action regrets, you can, you can, you can, you can sometimes do something about it, and so you can resolve them. And inaction regret, let's say I regret never visiting Turkey, all right? Um, how, how do I und- I can't un-... There's only one solution to that, you know? I gotta go do it. And if I don't do it, I'm still, uh, hit by that. And the other thing is that people tend to be bothered by the what ifs. And what's interesting about some of the boldness regrets and some of the other regrets is that people were less outcome-ish than I expected. Um, they weren't saying, "I should've asked her out on a date, I should've asked him out on a date." Not because, they say, "Oh, and as a consequence of that, I would have had this blissful marriage, and da-da-da..." They just, they're, they're not saying that. They're saying, "I just want to know what would have happened."
- CWChris Williamson
Oh, so a lot of this is-
- DPDaniel Pink
And even if something-
- CWChris Williamson
... is closing that sort of Zeigarnic loop a little bit. It's wanting to just-
- DPDaniel Pink
You got it.
- CWChris Williamson
... to just lock that off so that they know what would have happened. Yeah, I think about this a lot. So here, here's some bro science cod psychology for you, uh, coming s-
- DPDaniel Pink
Lay it on me.
- CWChris Williamson
... s- straight out of the research lab that is my brain. Um, I'm pretty sure that there is something called an anxiety cost. So, opportunity cost is going to the theme park or going to the gym, you choose to go to the theme park. The cost of going to the theme park is not going to the gym, right? That's opportunity cost. I'm pretty sure that there's an equivalent that occurs when, for instance, in your daily routine, everything that you need to do as a part of your daily routine sets when you wake up on a morning. Let's say that you're gonna meditate and take the dog for a walk and go to the gym and do some other things. The longer that you wait throughout your day until you do that thing, the more time of your day is spent ruminating and thinking about the fact that you still need to do that thing. So, let's say that you'd gone to the gym and walked the dog and done your meditation first thing in the morning. You could have basked for the remainder of the day, reveling in this sort of productive glow that you've had. "Well, look, I've already done those things. I don't need to take my time thinking about that."... however, if you don't go to the gym until 6:00 PM, you will spend a non-zero amount of time earlier in the day thinking, "Oh, well, I've still got to go to the gym. I've got that thing to do. I can't believe I've got that thing to do." And that, to me, is the anxiety cost. So, the sooner that you can get certain tasks done, the sooner that you can ... The equivalent could be done with, uh, thinking about asking a girl out. There's a girl in college that you really want to ask out. You could spend the next two years of college thinking about asking her out, or you could do it now, stress test the idea, and you won't have to ever think about that anymore. Now that, to me-
- DPDaniel Pink
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... that anxiety cost is such a motivator. You think, "Look, if I just go and do the thing," and it- it seems, given the fact that, uh, action and inaction skews toward inaction being more prevalent, it seems like that might help to actually push people, "Okay. I'll- I'll just do it, I'll just do it." I know that inaction, uh, is a more consistent regret, uh, than action ones, and I know that I'm not gonna have to think about it again. If I just get it done, she might have halitosis. She might be a total bitch. I'll ask her.
- DPDaniel Pink
Uh, so here's the thing. I- I- I think that one of the lessons of this is that we should have something of a bias for action. Um, and becau- for a couple of reasons. Number one is that I think we under- there- there are a few reasons why I think we should have a bias for action. Number one, for exactly the reason that you're saying, that it extinguishes the what if question, uh, and the what if question can linger on us as a ... I mean, you're essentially describing it as something of a cognitive tax. Um, it's a tax on our- on our attention, it's a tax on our, uh, willpower, it's a tax on our, um, uh, you know, ability to focus, in a way. So, um, and so, the- the action extinguishes that. The other thing which I think we- we- we totally underestimated is how much action helps us learn. That is, we- we tend ... We- we sometimes have the sequence wrong. We think that the way you do stuff is you learn how to do it and then you do it. But a lot of times, doing stuff helps us learn what to do and how to do it. Um, it's certainly true when we're thinking about our ... It's certainly true when we're thinking about our life course, or when we're thinking about what to do with our lives. We tend to say, "Okay, I gotta plan this out and then I'm gonna do it." But the way you discover what it is you wanna do is by doing stuff. And so, I think a lesson of these boldness regrets is that we should have, you know, I don't- I don't think a wild bias toward action, but we should have a bias toward action, uh, because action extinguishes our what if and it helps us learn in ways that we don't often realize.
- CWChris Williamson
What was the next category of regrets after boldness?
- DPDaniel Pink
So, another- another category of regret are what I call foundation regrets. Foundation regrets are people who regret, say, uh, spending too much money and saving too little, uh, people who regret not taking care of their health, people who regret not working hard enough in school or university, people who make these small decisions. They're- they're- they're largely about conscientiousness, about prudence, small decisions early that have ... that accumulate and have pretty nasty consequences later on. And, um, and so, foundation regrets, if boldness regrets are, "If only I'd taken the chance," foundation regrets are, "If only I'd done the work." And what they show is our need for stability. Um, a good life has- is not precarious. It's hard to have a good life if you're uncertain, if your platform is wobbly. And people do regret making bad small decisions that have a- a collective force of weakening their foundation, of- of- of giving too much precariousness to their life.
- CWChris Williamson
It's so interesting how these regrets, in retrospect, are reminding us of a lot of things that we're told when looking forward. You know, "You need to look after your health. You should be going to the gym. You should be careful about how you spend your money." And in retrospect, we're being told ... Th- this is, uh, like memetic evolution is- is- is providing us with, okay, what are the things that after the entirety of life still stick in somebody's mind as a thing? Now, that's not to say that the things that they say that they regret would have actually improved their lives had they have done them, but they certainly wouldn't have regretted them anymore.
- DPDaniel Pink
You got it exactly right. This is the part where we were talking about earlier, where regret is clarifying. The stuff that sticks with us teaches us what we value, what we- what we value, and I think that what we value is stability. Um, we value stability, but we also value boldness at the same time. Those things are ... Tho- those things are perfectly compatible. Uh, uh, and- and- and what re- regret reveals, I- I- I, you know, I say this in the book, is what- what these four regrets reveal, in some ways, is a photographic negative of the good life. That is, I got these 16,000, n- I mean, again, like, 18,000 people who are telling me what they regret the most. But they're a- by doing that, they're telling me what they value the most, and these four core regrets tell us what people value the most. And two of the things they value is, they want some ... People want ... A good life has some stability to it, but a good life also has some growth and some psychological richness and some existential excitement and adventure to it, as you're saying.
- CWChris Williamson
What's the next category?
- DPDaniel Pink
Moral regrets. Those are regrets where people are at a juncture in their life, they can do the wrong thing, they can do the right thing. They do the wrong thing, and they regret it. Um, and these are things like, um, the two biggest areas are bullying, um, in- in- in school, uh, l- huge numbers of that, and then marital infidelity, things that- that- that violate either that person's individual moral codes or a broader moral code. Um, and- and I think that that suggests that people actually ... and I'm convinced of this, I- I think most people, I really do, most people want to be good. I'm convinced of that. Um, uh, we, uh, not- not, you know, we can- we can ... I- I think there's an evolutionary argument for that, for, um, uh, but I think most of us want to be good, and most of us, not every single person every single time, but most of us feel pretty bad when we- we- we don't act well, we don't ... we're- we're not good.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah. Well, I mean, the- the regrets aren't signaling to a group.... you know, maybe it'll make you act in a certain way, but it's very much an internal, singular-
- DPDaniel Pink
That's a very good, that's a very good point. That's a really, really, that's a very, very good point about that. And that's, that's a great point, actually. And that's why it is... That's a great point. That's why it's so instructive, because it's, it's inherently not performative, right? So the, the expression of no regrets is a performance. If I say to the world, "I have no regrets, I never look backward," that's performative. I am performing courage. But when I feel regret and it's coming this way, there's no performance there. It's an honest signal to yourself.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah, it's an honest signal. You can have a fair bit of faith that the things that you regret are things that you actually regret. Now,
- 25:14 – 37:59
Dealing with Negative Emotions
- CWChris Williamson
did you find, uh, uh, or can you imagine that certain people may overly regret, people may, um, tune up-
- DPDaniel Pink
Absolutely.
- CWChris Williamson
... tune up their regrets too high?
- DPDaniel Pink
There's no question about that, and this is, this is because we haven't been taught effectively how to deal with negative emotions. Um, and so, so on one pole, you can ignore your negative emotions. That's a bad idea. That leads to delusion. But on the other pole, you can wallow in them, you can ruminate over them. Uh, that's a bad idea too, uh, because that leads to despair. What we should be doing is we should be confronting our negative emotions, we should be thinking about our negative emotions, and we should be applying a systematic way to enlist these negative emotions to help us live better in the future. That's, that's the key. And the trouble is, nobody ever teaches us how to do that.
- CWChris Williamson
So there, there's a... There has to be a distinction between sort of reflection and rumination. So n-
- DPDaniel Pink
Absolutely. Rumination. Rumination's terrible for us. Um, but the reason that people, a reason that people ruminate, or a main reason that people ruminate is they don't know what to do when a negative emotion comes in, because we're so over-indexed on positivity. People think that if they're experiencing a negative emotion, "Oh my God, everybody else is so positive, there must be something wrong with me," and that can bring them down. What's more is that when they experience a negative emotion, because they're human, they haven't been instructed on what to do with a negative emotion. Um, and there are ways that we can process negative emotions far more effectively, and you can arrest that march toward rumination.
- CWChris Williamson
What should they do, then? What should people do?
- DPDaniel Pink
Oh, well, there's all... I mean, there are a bunch of things that we can do on that. I mean, there's, there's... I mean, I like to look at the process as inward, outward, forward, inward, outward, forward. So inward, what you have to do when you experience a regret is you need to practice something called self-compassion, which is a line of research that began 20 years ago by Kristin Neff at the University of Texas. Basically, it's this. When we look at w- you know, and I'm sure your listeners are probably big violators of this. When we make mistakes, when we screw up, the way we talk to ourselves is brutal. We lacerate ourselves. We criticize ourselves in such cruel terms that I can't imagine that most of us would ever talk to another human being the way we talk to ourselves. All right? Don't do that. There's no evidence that's effective. Um, there's no evidence that that kind of severe self-criticism improves performance. In a sense, it's, to what you were saying earlier, it's a little bit performative for yourself. You're basically virtue-signaling to yourself about what a badass you are, and it, but it doesn't improve performance. What improves performance, and, and, and I encourage your listeners to look at this research on self-compassion because it's powerful, is, what improves performance is this, treating yourself with kindness rather than contempt. Basically, treating yourself with the same kindness you would treat somebody else who you, came to you with this kind of thing. Recognizing that your mistakes and your missteps are part of the human condition, that you're actually, in some level, not that special, that if, that if you have a regret about, "Oh, I shoulda started a business," you're not alone. If you have a regret about mistreating somebody, you're not alone. It's part of the human experience. And the third thing is that, um, these regrets, these mistakes, these missteps, these screw-ups, they're a part of your life. They don't fully define your life. Um, uh, they're a moment in your life. And so when you do that, when you sort of reframe how you think about it inward, that makes the way for, that paves the way for, um, you know, the other parts of the reckoning process.
- CWChris Williamson
Okay, so that-
- DPDaniel Pink
So that's inward.
- CWChris Williamson
... that's inward.
- DPDaniel Pink
Yeah. Outward, disclosure. Disclosure. There is a lo- there is a strong case to be made for disclosing your regrets, um, for a couple of re-... You know, here's the thing. Uh, I, let, lemme give you an example. So I got these 18... Okay, so, so I put up this site with like two tweets, I have 15,000 regrets from people all over, all over the country, all over the world. 15,000 people saying, "Hello." Yes. "Hello, complete stranger. I would like to tell you my biggest regret." All right? So that's kind of wacky in itself. Then I also, um, had a f- uh, you know, in the, in the form I said, you know, if you wanted to... 'Cause I'm, you know, 'cause I'm a writer and I'm, and I'm writing a book about regret. And I said, "If you wanted to, and if you, if you'd like to be contacted for a follow-up interview, uh, please include your email address. You... Feel free to include your email address." Otherwise, it was anonymous. I thought that maybe 5 or 6% of people would include their email address. But 32% included their email address. 32% said, "Yes, I wanna tell my, a complete stranger my, my regret, and I want him to email me so we can talk more about it." Okay? That's te- that's telling us something right there. And so, what is it about disclosure? Okay, we got the inward reframing. Let's go outward. Disclosure is an unburdening. There's no question about that. But the other thing about disclosure, and this is extremely important, is that disclosure is an integral part of the sensemaking process. And the reason for that is that the way we cons- there are different ways we can construe things. We can construe them, to oversimplify a bit, at an abstract level or a concrete level. And there are advantages and disadvantages on those different levels of construal. So negative emotion, emotions in general, but negative emotions especially, are abstract. They're blobby, they're amorphous. They feel menacing because of that. When you convert those menacing emotions to words...... spoken or written, they're more concrete. Concrete things are less medicine. So you defang them in a way, and then the fact that they're in language allows you to begin making sense of them. So, that's disclosure. So, so if you're, uh, if you're, if, if there, we, we, we, we overstate how much disclosing our vulnerabilities will affect how people think of us. In general, there's 30 years of research saying that when we disclose our mistakes and our screw-ups and our vulnerabilities, people actually think more highly of us, not less highly of us. Um, so but e- even if you're skittish about disclosing, what you should be doing is just, I mean, if you write about your regret for 15 minutes a day for three days, that's an incredibly potent way to make sense of the regret. So, that's outward. The next step is forward. You got to extract a lesson from it. You got to extract a lesson from it, and the way we extract lessons is, is by getting some distance from it. It's pretty clear, it's essentially incontrovertible that we are better at solving... We stink at solving our own problems and are pretty good at solving other people's problems, and that's all, that's all because of distance. So you can do things like talk to yourself in the third person, right? A lot of research on that. So, so for you, if you have a regret, instead of saying, "What should I do?" You should say, "What should Chris do?" Um, there are things, uh, you can use our time travel skills and you can say you're deciding what to do or how to, how to extract a lesson from this regret, make a phone call to the Chris of 2032 and say, "Hey, Chris of 2032, what do you want me to do in response to this regret?" The Chris of 2032 has a pretty fricking good idea because he's not enmeshed in the qui- the Chris of 2022. Um, you can even do something like the, the tech- just the very simple technique of saying... This is good for all decisions, you're in, you're trying to decide what to do, ask yourself, "What would I tell my best friend to do?" When you, when, when you, when, when you do that people always know what to do or what to tell, so that's distance. So you want to, uh, reframe, treat yourself with kindness rather than contempt, you want to disclose in order to concretize it and make sense of it, and then you want to take a step back and extract a lesson from it that you can apply next time. And when we do that, negative emotions, they still hurt a little bit, but they don't destroy us, and we actually kind of, we, we in some ways we co-opt them, we, we, we enlist them-
- CWChris Williamson
Integrate them.
- DPDaniel Pink
... to make us better, and we, and we avoid repeating those negative emotions later on.
- CWChris Williamson
Did you look at when it comes to disclosing a difference between writing for yourself versus writing for someone else, speaking to yourself versus having a conversation with somebody else?
- DPDaniel Pink
I didn't look at that. Um, a lot of the research on writing is, is writing only for yourself. Um, and, and the disclos- so, so, uh, when we talk about disclosure, ye-, the, the, the verbal disclosure is almost always to somebody else-
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- DPDaniel Pink
... but at the same point to yourself. The written disclosure is almost always only to yourself. Um, so I don't know about whether, you know, writing an essay and publishing an essay about your regrets. My hunch, and it's only a hunch, is that, um, it would be as useful, if not more useful than simply speaking about it, because the very act of writing is a form of sense-making, and so you might make greater sense of it by writing about it, and then the disclosure gives you both the unburdening and allows you to build affinity, and in some ways puts your issue out to other people who then you can enlist in deciding what to do and figuring out what to do next.
- CWChris Williamson
I really like the, the disclosure element of that, that concretizing and defanging of whatever it is that you feel. I, I, I think I-
- DPDaniel Pink
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... I accuse the, um, American imperial measurement system of basically being the same thing, that you guys don't actually know how much something weighs, it's just a notion about what it might be or it's in this region, right? You know, it's, it's pounds, it's stones, it's whatever, like it's just a thing. And I kind of feel like undisclosed thoughts a lot of the time or ideas, it's one of the reasons that I love writing a, a newsletter. I never had a newsletter for ages, and now it's just 1000 words at the end of the week, but it, it forces me to concretize something that I've really been thinking about for the last week. And I speak-
- DPDaniel Pink
Exactly.
- CWChris Williamson
... I speak for, you know, hours, hours, four or five hours a week on the show, but it's different. Something different-
- DPDaniel Pink
I agree.
- CWChris Williamson
... between writing and speaking.
- DPDaniel Pink
There's a greater, there's a greater rigor to it.
- CWChris Williamson
Correct. Yes, yes, yes.
- DPDaniel Pink
Um, particularly when you know it's going to be consumed elsewhere, and-
- CWChris Williamson
Right.
- DPDaniel Pink
... this is something that I dis- this is something that I discovered long ago. It's actually one of, no joke, one of the most important lessons I've learned, which is that writing w- like, we tend to think that what you do is you figure stuff out and then you write about it, but writing itself is a form of figuring out. Writing itself is a form of figuring out what you think. Uh, a- and, and again, the broader kind of academic term I al- I use for that, because I think it's useful, I don't know if anybody else cares, but I, uh, it's sense-making. We're trying to make sense of things, and the way that we make sense of things is by, is by being able to shift between these two levels of construal, between looking at things abstractly and looking at things concretely. The same thing is true when it comes to the, the research on self-distancing and problem-solving. You know, o- one of the things we have to do there is that we, we want to construe things. When we look at our own problems, we're like scuba divers, right? Scuba divers don't know anything about the ocean, or they know a little bit about the ocean, but what they know is like what's around them right there. They have no sense for the sweep or the ecosystem of the ocean. So you don't want to be, when you're, when we go into our own problems, we're scuba divers, and the way you solve problems is you want to be an oceanographer, and so you need to actually affirmatively take steps to zoom out and look at things differently.
- 37:59 – 43:00
Connection Regrets
- DPDaniel Pink
- CWChris Williamson
What is the fourth category of regrets?
- DPDaniel Pink
Fourth category are connection regrets, and these are regrets about relationships, all relationships, not only romantic relationships. In fact, most of them were not romantic relationships. Relationships about, among, um, you know, parents to kids, kids to parents, siblings, relatives, friends, neighbors, colleagues. And essentially the story there is that you have a relationship that was intact or should have been intact, and it comes apart, and it usually just drifts apart. It doesn't explode apart, and it drifts apart. One side wants to reach out. It doesn't because they say, "Ugh, it's gonna be really awkward to reach out and the other side's not gonna care." And so it drifts apart more. And the trouble there is that they're wrong. It's... Reaching out is often not awkward at all, and the other side almost always cares. And so the connection regrets are, "If only I'd reached out," and they reflect our need for affinity, for connection, for love.
- CWChris Williamson
I bet as well, if you were to ask the people that said, "They won't care if I reach out," and you said to them, "Well, what about if they reached out to you? How would you feel?" These people would say, "Well, I'd love it. It'd be fantastic. It'd be, it would be brilliant. It would, it would, it would completely erode all of the, the worry and the concern."
- DPDaniel Pink
And yet, they are inable, unable to extrapolate from their experience because we tend to think that we are much more special than we really are. You know, I mean, one of, one of, one of the, one of the things that we, one of the things that we labor under, one of the things that constrains us, uh, in our ability to navigate the world and make sense of it is something called pluralistic ignorance, where we think that we have a belief, but no one else shares it. Um, no one else... you know, I'm so special, no one else shares that belief. I mean, you see it, you see it in... I mean, I always, I always think... I, I, I think about it in, I think about it in school. So a professor gives a lecture, and, and she says, "Are there, are there any questions?" And, you know, you're saying, "Oh my God, I'm totally confused. I don't understand this. I don't understand that. But no one else is asking questions, so they must understand, and I don't wanna look like an idiot." When in fact they... uh, you don't say, well, maybe they're thinking the exact same thing. They don't wanna look like, like, like an idiot. So we tend to think that we are much more special than we really are, and there's a whole-
- CWChris Williamson
It's safe to assume if you have a thought, it's safe to assume that some nonzero number of other people have also had that thought.
- DPDaniel Pink
A- uh, or, uh, and or, or might be having that thought right now. Um, and so, you know, we have to be... Again, it's part of this toggling and this sense-making. Sometimes you are unique. Sometimes what you're feeling and thinking and seeing is unique and idiosyncratic to you. Sometimes it's extraordinarily common, and it's much more common than we, it's much more common than we think. We have sort of an illusion of our own, you know, our own specialness. And, and again, I don't wanna hamper anybody's self-esteem listening to this. You're all very special, but you're also like a lot of other people. I'm like a lot of other people.
- CWChris Williamson
I'm surprised by the pre- Well, actually, before I say what I'm most surprised by, what were you most surprised came up as a common regret?
- DPDaniel Pink
I'm not sur- I'm not sure I'm surprised by any particular thing that came up. Um, I think what I was surprised by more was the universality of these regrets.
- CWChris Williamson
Right.
- DPDaniel Pink
By how common they were across, especially across nations. Um, how, how little seeming national difference there was in a, in a lot of these regrets.
- CWChris Williamson
I'm surprised by the bullying. I'm surprised by how many-
- DPDaniel Pink
Oh, really?
- CWChris Williamson
... by how many people. It makes sense in retrospect, but I didn't bully anybody in school, so I, maybe it's just my, um, lack of pluralistic ignorance. Um, yeah, I, I just... It, it surprises me that that many people felt like they'd bullied someone. I don't know how many bullies there were in my school. Maybe... But I suppose you don't, it's not like you need to be a bully. It's not, it's not like it's some label, "Hello, I am the bully. I will punch you in the face." It's one incident perhaps that sticks with people. They'll have done one thing at one time, stole money from some kid's lunch box one day, and that's the thing that stays with them. They could have been a perfect student throughout all of time except for that.
- DPDaniel Pink
I, I was a little surprised by that, but... when they first started coming into the database. But then it's like, this is a, it's a very common regret. And, and at some level I'm kind of heartened by it. I'm kind of heartened by the fact that people who've mistreated others regret it 10 years later, 20 years later, 30 years later. I mean, it suggests that they've learned something, that it, that the, that their values are being clarified and that it's giving them some guidance on what to do next.
- CWChris Williamson
It is, it is strange. I wonder what someone is, is hoping to do there. "Look, I, I hurt somebody in the past. If I do this again in future, this isn't the sort of person that I want to be. I, I have this vision of myself as a..."... integral- e- e- integrity-laden human that is going to feel proud. Yeah, it's- it's an interesting one.
- 43:00 – 50:40
Agency
- CWChris Williamson
It- does agency relate to regret at all? The ability to have impact on a situation or not?
- DPDaniel Pink
Agency is- is critical to regret. Agency is- is- is central to regret. You can't have regret if you don't feel a sen- if you don't have any agency. So, you know, you can- you can- you can look at it like, okay, so, um, you know, I'm looking out the window here in Chicago, and it's not... it's- it's- it's a very overcast day, and maybe I would prefer that it was a sunny day. But I can't regret that it's not sunny. I'm disappointed that it's not sunny, but I can't regret that, because regret requires agency. I don't control what- whether the sun shines or not. Um, and so, agency is- agency is incredibly important. That's one reason why it hurts so much, is because it's your fault. Disappointment is not your fault. Regret is-
- CWChris Williamson
The line- the line gets blurred, though, between what we know is our fault and what we know we have agency over and what we don't. If you get hit by a car, your belief that, "I coulda, woulda, shoulda looked to the left, reversed back from the w- you know," and then some catastrophe occurs, you can regret that despite having not had any agency over this idiot driver that just hit you, but believing that you did.
- DPDaniel Pink
Ex- ex- exactly right. And sorting that out is incredibly important. And let me give you an example of that from the survey, from the quantitative survey. So I was... I- I wanted to tease out this question of agency, and I also wanted to tease out this question of, if you believe p- if you believe purely in fatalism, then you don't have regret. Um, you know? 'Cause- 'cause fa- if- if- if you have a purely fatalistic view of the world, you... there's no- there's no agency, and therefore there's no regret. And so, I wanted to see where people... what the- what the ratio is. So- so I asked in this quantitative survey of the US population, I asked a question about free will. I said... I- I said, "Do you believe, in general, that people have free will, that they have some control over, you know, what they do, how they do it?" Okay? Huge majority said, "Yes, I b- believe in free will." Okay? Then elsewhere in the survey, I asked the... sort of sneaked in the opposite question, which is, "Do you think that, in general, everything in life happens for a reason?" Okay? So a more fatalistic thing. And almost everybody said yes. And so what you had is people believing in both of these things. And it's frustrating, okay? You're- you're rubbing your face in frustration. I buried my hands... my face in my hands in frustration, thinking this is contradictory. But it might not be, because that's what our lives are. Like, we don't... there aren't clear... I mean, you said it just now. There isn't... there can be a- a fuzzy border between where we have agency and where we have not, and sorting that out is part of it. And so you have these people who believe both in free will and that everything happens for a reason. I think that that's part of what it takes to navigate our lives, and that's one of the other things that regret teaches us. It forces us to sort that out. Where did I have agency? Where was I a victim of circumstance? You can look at this in narrative terms, too. I mean, Dan- Dan Adams, who is a, um... who is a, um, personality psychologist at Northwestern University, up the road from where I am right now, he says that we forge our identities in narrative terms. And- and there are two kinds of narratives in our lives. One is what he calls a contamination narrative, which is where things go from good to bad. The other is a redemption narrative, where things go from bad to good. And people who are healthy, people who learn and grow and progress, see their lives in terms of re- redemption narratives. Not as perfect, but as better, as going in that- in that kind of trajectory. And so when we think about these... our lives in narrative terms, we inevitably have to ask the question, "Okay, my life is a narrative. Am I the author of that narrative, or am I a character in that narrative?" And the answer is, yes, you're both. And you have to try to sort that out. And that is... you know, again, this is like we're- we're- we're having, you know, the sensemaking hour with Chris Williamson, but that is also a part of what it takes to make sense of the world. Where do you have agency? Where do you- where you don't? And I think what's interesting about this emotion of regret that is unpleasant and that we try to avoid and that we try to bat away is that, when we actually reckon with it, it leads us into discussions like this. It leads us into discussions about what we can control and what we can't. It leads us into discussions about how we make sense of our life. It leads us into discussions about what makes life worth living. And so, if we actually treat this emotion like grown-ups rather than run away from it or ruminate over it, it- it is instructive and it's clarifying.
- CWChris Williamson
Is there an implication in this that the way we should live life is in a way that minimizes our regrets in future?
- DPDaniel Pink
I think that's true to a- a point, 'cause you can't minimize every regret. That's the key. You can't minimize every regret. So if you're trying to go around minimizing every regret, you're gonna go- you're gonna go nuts. You have to be able to minimize the right regrets. And once again, these- this chorus of 16, 17, 18,000 people is telling us what they regret, and they tend to regret the same thing. So- so, you know, if you say, "Okay, what am I gonna have for dinner? I'm gonna try to minimize my regret about having dinner, so I'm gonna- hmm. I'm gonna have more regret about having fried chicken or am I gonna have more regret about having meatloaf tonight?" The you... the- the me... let's say- let's take me. The me of five years from now is not gonna give a shit one way or another, I can guarantee you that. Like if I could get the me of 2027 on the phone and call him up and say, "Okay," he's gonna say, "Dan, I don't care. I have completely forgotten that evening five years ago. It has no material effect on my life." But if I say, "I'm here in Chicago," and let's say I have an old friend in Chicago and I haven't talked to him for a while, and I say, "Oh, I should reach out but it's gonna be kind of weird if I reach out. Uh, okay, I'm not gonna..." The- the Dan of 2027 will tell me, "Hey dude, reach out."... because I'm gonna regret this in five years if you don't reach out right now. And so, we should try to minimize our regrets, but we should try to minimize the right ones. And it ends up being a relatively small set of regrets that we should be minimizing, so we should be, in some sense, maximizing on minimizing those re- those regrets, and essentially saying, "Good enough is good enough." And, you know, whether you have fried chicken or meatloaf tonight, whether you buy a gray car or a blue car, uh, those kinds of things ultimately don't matter. The you of the future is not gonna care one way or another.
- CWChris Williamson
I would say that over a shorter time span, you may be able to see those, uh, come out a little bit more tightly. You know, when you're looking at anything over 20 years, you, you, there's maybe, what, between 5 and 100 decisions that are probably going to stick out that you might actually be able to remember. But if you were to say, "I'm supposed to be on a diet. I'm on a diet because in future, I want to be somebody that's fit. I have the choice this evening between some nice steamed salmon and asparagus or the fried chicken. What would me tomorrow want me today to do?" To me, me tomorrow is going to say, "Well, I feel a bit lethargic here, and, and, uh, it was, my performance in the gym wasn't very good, and I didn't sleep too well."
- DPDaniel Pink
I, I, I, I agree with that. I agree with that. I mean, I think that, that, the, the perspective changes with, with, a little bit with the distance. But I think that future you, I think that future you is generally interested, generally has your best interest in mind. I really do. Um, I think that the situation there is, is, in that particular instance, is to change the choice architecture, so you don't even, so you don't even have to make a decision. So-
- CWChris Williamson
Environment design.
- DPDaniel Pink
... the only thing ... Exactly. The only thing you're offered is something that is good for you.
- CWChris Williamson
I asked Jordan Peterson this question the other day. I'm gonna ask you as well, 'cause I feel like it, it
- 50:40 – 55:47
Value of an Enemy
- CWChris Williamson
kinda relates to what we're talking about here. I asked him whether there is a value in life of having a nemesis, of having an enemy?
- DPDaniel Pink
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
Someone or, someone or something that motivates you, because many of us, me included, try and live a life of peace and not make enemies of people or things or ideas or groups or whatever. Um, but I can't deny myself that when I have resentment in my heart, there is an extra degree of fire that gets lit underneath me, that I want to prove that person or idea or thing or whatever wrong. That that amount of motivation and drive comes from a place that is really, really difficult for me to tap into, and it's a, a juvenile, lower resolution, shitty vibration v- version of myself. However, it's true, right? When I resent something or someone, I put my foot down on the gas. And I'm wondering whether, um, to tie it into what we've spoken about today, whether regrets can also fill that hole, whether regret can act as that fire. It can almost act as a, not an ideological nemesis, but like a, a, you know, a nemesis against a situation that you've been in the past?
- DPDaniel Pink
Well, I mean, I think that, let, let's, let's, let's take on this, uh, this notion of, of nemesis, and, and we can think about it in terms of our personal lives, but we can also think about it in, in a broader narrative. Why do so many stories pit the hero against a nemesis? Because what does that, what's the, what's the narrative function of that nemesis? The narrative function of the nemesis is to clari- is to, is to cr- present an obstacle in the way of a goal, and it's also to clarify who the, the hero is. And so, if-
- CWChris Williamson
Not that. It's not that.
- DPDaniel Pink
Exactly. Exactly. And so, the, it, so, so, if one feels that one has a nemesis, and that, and the, and the, and, and you're reasonably psychologically well-adjusted, you're not creating phantoms and this, you know, and you're not paranoid. Um, if you feel like you have a nemesis, um, that is telling you something. If, if something presents as a nemesis, it's telling you what you value. And not that, as you say, and it's also telling you what your goal is, which is to bypass that nemesis or to overcome that nemesis, so it can be clarified. This is, in some ways, why something like envy, which is a pretty bad emotion to have. There's not a lot of positive in, in envy.
- CWChris Williamson
It's pretty useless as well, yeah.
- DPDaniel Pink
And, and, but it, but envy can be clarifying, that if you feel envy, you say, "Okay, what am I really envying here? Like, why am I feeling this way? What is it that is causing this envy?" And it's a clarification of ... It's a clarification of what you value. Uh, uh, I think with envy, it's an interrogation of what you value, rather than a clarification of it. You have to ask yourself, "Okay, why do I feel envy? What is it? Do I admire this person's clothing? Do I admire this, do I admire this person's, um, I don't know, professional success? Do I admire this person's wealth?" Um, and how, and you have to interrogate that. How important is that really to ... How important is that really to me? But, um, but, but, but again, I, uh, it's an inter- it's a, it's a, it's an interesting question. I don't, I don't, I don't know if I have a nemesis. I never, literally never thought about that. But, um, I guess if I do have a, um, a nemesis, it would be things that we believe that aren't, that just aren't true, and trying to ... Because that bugs me. If we, when we believe that no regrets and you should never look backward is a, an appropriate and healthy blueprint for life, that's just wrong. And so maybe that, that false belief is a negative. You know, things that, things that are, things that people believe that just are not true maybe operates as a nemesis for me.
- CWChris Williamson
It's so strange, because regret as a topic is an uncomfortable one. You know, it's, it's, it's not nice for people to experience. It's not- That even thinking about regrets as a topic itself is generally kind of a, a bit icky and discordant. And yet, it is, uh, you have convinced me that it's a gift. You have convinced me that what a regret does is it shows us the direction in which we don't want to go in future, and that even at the time, the way that we interpret situations is often at the mercy of our cognitive biases and what we see and what we blah, blah. But over time, with the benefit of a little bit of perspective, you actually end up thinking, "Okay, well, what are the things that stuck about? What are the things that I actually did or didn't care about? What are the things that I actually wish that I had or hadn't done differently?" And those that arise, you don't need to do sense-making in the moment, because your system has all- has filtered everything out, except for the stuff that is left. You know, like, um, somebody that's sifting for gold or whatever in a river. Okay, what's left? What's left is the thing that didn't go away with time. That's the thing that you still need to work on in future. This is going to be the same thing if the situation happens again.
- DPDaniel Pink
Amen. Hallelujah.
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- DPDaniel Pink
I have nothing to add to that. It's perfectly said. You're exactly right.
- CWChris Williamson
Dan ... Daniel
- 55:47 – 56:29
Where to Find Daniel
- CWChris Williamson
Pink, ladies and gentlemen. People want to keep up to date with what it is that you're doing. Why should they harass you on the internet?
- DPDaniel Pink
They can go to my website, which is danpink.com D-A-N-P-I-N-K.com, and we got a newsletter, um, uh, all kinds of other stuff. Uh, we use free- lots of, lots of free resources on the website, uh, information about the books, all kinds of really good stuff.
- CWChris Williamson
Dope. Thanks, Dan.
- DPDaniel Pink
Thank you, Chris. That was super interesting.
- CWChris Williamson
What's happening, people? Thank you very much for tuning in. If you enjoyed that episode, then press here for a selection of the best clips from the podcast over the last few weeks. And don't forget to subscribe. Peace.
Episode duration: 56:30
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